The Sun. — London, England, 1830-04-08 00:00:00

. ... - THE NORTHERN ROADS. PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS. REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE STATE ON THE NORTHERN ROADS. REPORT. THE SELECT COMMITTEE APPOINTED TO INQUIRE INTO THE STATE OF THE. ROADS BETWEEN LONDON AND EDINBURGH, AND LONDON AND PORTPATRICK, AND WHO WERE EMPOWERED TO REPORT THEIR OBSERVATIONS THEREUPON, TOGETHER WITH.THE MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THEM, TO THE HOUSE ;—HAVE, PURSUANT TO THE ORDERS OF THE HOUSE, CONSIDERED THE MA'ITERS TO THEM REFERRED, AND AGREED TO THE FOLLOWING REPORT, WHICH, TOGETHER. WITH THE MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THEM, AND AN AP PENDIX, THEY HAVE DIRECTED TO BE RE PORTED TO THE HOUSE, Your Committee, in reporting to the House their opinion on the subject that has been submitted to their considera. tion, and the recommendation which they have to make respecting it, conceive that it will lead to a better under standing of what they have to offer, if they describe, in the .first instance, the great lines of communication between London and Edinburgh, and London and Portpatrick. The present mail-coach road between London and Edin liorF,e is by Ware and Huntingdon and the Great North R ea d, ae i far as Ferrybridge, whence it deviates to the right by 'York, passing through Newcastle and Morpeth to Berwick-tenon-Tweed, snaking a distance of 399 miles between Lornirin and Edinburgh. The principal route, however, followed by travellers to Edinburgh from London, is by Barnet, joining the former road near Alconbury Hill, both lines remaining the same to Ferrybridge, from which place, by avoiding York and -going by Boroughbridee, a shorter road is obtained; the 'two again uniting at Northailerton and continuing the same to Morpeth, from which last place another road proceeds to Edinburgh by Coldstream Bridge, better known by the name of the Wooler Line. One of the roads to Portpatrick from London, is by the Great North Road as far as Boroughbridge, and thence uerses the mountainous district of Stainmore to Carlisle: eke other is, by Derby and 'Manchester, uniting with the former road at Carlisle : an inspection of the map of the country betwen London and Edinburgh and Portpatrick will at once simow how much these roads between London and Edinburgh and Portpatrick respectively deviate from the shortest line. This circumstance, which is of such great importance to am: the leading interests of the country , has for s evera l yea r s pot excited an anxious examination into the means by which the distances between these places might be best shortened, the present roads roost efficiently improved, and the difficulties that present themselves to such im provements most easily overcome. Your Committee find, that so far back as 1819, in con sequence of a Memoriel addressed to the Lords of the Trea sury by several persons of great weight, a survey of a line of road was made by Mr. Telford fmorn near Borough bridge to Sedburgh, and of another commencing from the same point, but leading by Aldstone Moor and Castleton Hawick. Mr. Telford's reports on these roads were laid before the house on the 14mh day of July, 1820 ; and your Com mittee .beg to refer to them, as affording conclusive reasons why neither of these lines should be adopted, although from an inspection of the Map they appear to be the most direct. In consequence of this survey and report, an application was made by the gentlemen interested in the road between Morpeth and Edinburgh, to have a survey made of the Woofer line. Mr. Telford was accordingly directed to snake such survey. The same, together with his estimate and report, was, in the year 1822, referred to a Select Committee of this House, who reported their opinion to the House. To that report your Committee refer for a staisement of the advantages and facilities that might be ob tained for the public by the adoption of this line of road, and by carrying into effect the improvements recommended by Mr. Telford. In the year f 22 the gentlemen interested in the Eastern or Berwick line applied for a survey of that road. This application having been complied with, Mr. Telford, by tie direction of the Lords of the Treasury, made a survey accordingly, which was presented to their Lordships in the year 1824. From this survey it appears that a very improved line in that direction might be obtained by avoiding hills and shortening distances, both objects of great importance, as this road must always continue a line of communication for the mail, connecting as it does the great towns en the sea coast, and running through the most fertile districts on both sides of the border, though from its more circuitous route it is less well adapted for the direct Edinburgh mail from London. Besides these roads, it has been stated to your Com mittee that a shorter line than either the Berwick or the Wooler line, might be obtained by going from New castle up the Rede Water, across the Carter by .ledburgh, and joining the Wooler road near Lauder. Your Committee having thus described, in general terms, what has been done to asemeeteio the best line of communication between London and Edinhaeolt, through the northern parts of the kingdom, will now proceed to describe what proceedings have taken place with respect s o the road between London and Morpeth. In the year 1823, a memorial, signed by several persons of great consideration in the north of England, interested in the matter, including the Mayor of Newcastle and the Bailiffs of Morpeth, was addressed to the Lords of the Treasury, praying for a survey of time road between Mor petit and London. This memorial having been followed by another in the year .1825, which was very numerous in ly signed by several of the greatest landed proprietors Yorkshire, as well as by the Lord Mayor and Commonalty of the city of York, and by one from the Mayor and Bur gesses of the town of Kingston-upormetiedl, the Lords of the Treasury directed the Postmaster-General: to comply with their prayer. ;31r. Telford accordingly received instructions to under take this task, and the result of his lest:ours was embodied in a report made to the Postmaster-General, And accom panied with very detailed plans, which were laid before the House in the course of the last Session of Parliament, To that report and survey your Committee are at present content to refer, and to state generally that it appears from Mr. Telford's reports, as well as from the evidence which be gave to your Committee, that a distance of thirty miles in;ght be saved between London and Edinburgh. Your Committee find that no survey has been made of the road between London and Portpatrick, excepting in so far as it is the same with the London and Edinburgh road, and excepting in so far as it has been surveyed and re ported on between Carlisle and Portpatrick, by Messrs. gennie and Telford. These reports were made in the years 1808 and 1811, and having been laid before this House in the years 1809 and 1811, were refereed to Se lect Committees of this House, to whose reports yoor Committee desire to refer. Your Committee beg to observe that the mail-coach to Glasgow at present takes the route of Doncaster and Leeds, and thence, by the circuitous and mountainous road arteoss Stainmore, through Carlisle, but your Committee are led to believe that not only a much more level road, but a more direct line might be obtained. Your Committee called for a copy of all meen.orials and representations that had been made since the year 1819, to time Lore's of the 'Treasury or the Postmaster-General, re lating to be survey of these roads, or to the acceleration of the mail between London and Edinburgh, and Glasgow and Portpatrick respectively, in order that the opinions of the agricultural sod commercial bodies intense:mi.:La in these greet lines of commeunee.tion might be ascertained, maul for the purpose of learning the extent of the grievances coin- • plained of, and the remedies by which such grievanCes were p roposed to be removed. Some of these communication to s trill be found in the App endix to this rep:..,, sufficient point out the general nature of the case, wlti A= has been brought under the consideration of the Government and] the Postmaster-General; but ae was represented to your +Committee that so great bad been the interest felt, and vvhicia still exists, ulean this subject, that if ehe order of your Committee was to he strictly enforced, it would 'mo dem a mass of papers so great as to encumber the proceed ings of your Committee, and materially interfere with the eedinary business+ of these departments of the Government, your Committee have contented themselves with a neleetion of tome of the principal documents adverted to. Taking into consideration, therefore, the whole (pies emss of the improvement of the :seeds from London to Edinburgh and Posnpatrick, its nmsgrs'oaeste and import ance, the vast varier) of interest connected with it, its different bearings, both as misl'enting time public at large and principally conezrued, the Weal di stricts your Committee have come to 00 opinion that the iroesroyesneut of these roads m ight be best annoniplieted by a Boase e a C o mmie_ &toners for the improvement of the roads between London send Holyhead, and London and Liverpool. In thia view, your Committee examined Sir Henry Par nell, Bart., a mem ber of ties Committee, to whoee active and intelligent superintendence the improvement of the roads between the metropolis and the Irish capital is p i o„_ eipally due. From his statement it appears .that with • powers of no very extens ive nature, the Commissioners bayc ben abled to make the road from London through tatinezharaen to Holyhca , l, front havins formerly lima Bi one of the very worst in England, to be perhiPs the best; and that the consequence has been a large increase of travelling on the road, and a great acceleration in the general communication between London and Dublin, by which the tolls have risen so as to afford the means of defraying the expense of all the improvements that have from time to time been carried into effect upon the Eng lish part of the road, producing at the same time so large a Sinking Fund, that no lees a sum than 40,0001. of principal and 13,0001. of interest has been paid upon a total sum of 54,0001. advanced by the Exchequer Bill Loan Commissioners. In now proceeding to recommend what appears to your Committee to be the best course to be adopted with respect to the improvement of the roads to Edinburgh and Portpatrick, your Committee beg further to refer the House to that part of the evidence of Sir H. Parnell in which he says "as nearly all the improvements on the Holyhead road are completed, and also the works at the harbours of Holyhead and Howth, it is not necessary to continue the present Commission as it is at present con stituted ; and therefore, if it were thought advisable to take advantage of the experience that has been acquired in conducting road improvements, in carrying on the general improvement of the northern roads, a new Com mission might be formed in the place of the present one, composed of as many new Commissioners and such a number of the present Commissioners as together would form a Commission in every respect proper and competent to superintend the improvement of the northern roads." The examinations your Committee have made with reference to this view of the question, induce them to think this suggestion is one well worthy of consider ation, as offering the best plan for securing these im provements in the communication between the metropolis and the northern parts of the United Kingdom which have been so long and so repeatedly called for. Your Committee can entertain no doubt that a Com• mission so constituted would more effectually and more certainly secure a successful result than a Commission en tirely composed of persons not having the same experience as the Holyhead Road Commissioners. A Commission composed of an entirely new body of individuals would have to form a new system for forwarding a business of a very complicated kind, in place of talting advantage of those modes of proceeding which have proved in every way suc cessful, particularly in respect to securing the concurrence and co-operation of the local trustees. It was for these reasons, therefore, that your Committee, after having given the subject referred to them the fullest consideration, are of opinion that the business of examin ing into what particulars are the most fit to be adopted for the improvement of the northern roads; of settling with the local trustees the several details which will be neces sary with respect to loans, and to tolls for repaying such loans ; of making contracts and superintending the execu tion of them; and of promoting an improved system of general management of the repair's of these roads by the trustees, ought to be placed under a new Board of Com missioners, to consist partly of some of those who are now Commissioners of the Holyhead and Liverpool roads, and partly of new Commissioners connected with the northern roads, and to have the same powers which the Parliamentary Commissioners of the Holyhead and Liverpool roads have. Your Committee beg to point out, that the advantages arising from the superintendence of such a Board of Com missioners will not be confined to the more immediate and direct benefit arising from making great works, but will (as has been eminently experienced in the working of the Holyhead and Liverpool Road Commission) be felt in the advice, assistance, and explanations that such a hoard will from time to time be able to give to the local surveyors, ' thus assisting the trustees of the several roads gradually to adopt, under the authority of their own Acts, a more perfect, and a more economical system of road-making than at present prevails; which improved condition of things will be accompanied with this additional and im portant circumstance, that all the works that may thus he executed will form part of one general combined and en larged plan of operations, in place of that heretofore limited, and not always enlightened system of manage ment that has characterised the works of many of the local road surveyors throughout England ; occasioning it is feared an expenditure of public money not always the most judicious nor the best suited to the general interests of the country And your Committee are of opinion that they cannot better illustrate the correctness of these observations than by a reference to the sth and 6th annual reports of the Commissioners for the improvement of the London and Holyhead, and London and Liverpool roads, in which are described the improvements that have been made on the road from Darlaston bridge to the confines of the county of Stafford, being a portion of the Liverpool road, by the local trusteee acting under the advice of the Commissioners and their engineer, in consequence of which very consi derable and expensive works have been completed and others are intended. your Committee wish further to remark that the im proving the communication between London and Edin burgh has of late years assumed a character of more pecu liar consequence to the people of Scotland, owing to the removal to London of all the revenue boards connected with that part of the United Kingdom, entitling them, in the opinion of your Committee, to the most favourable con sideration lay Parliament of their representations and peti tions on this subject ; the more so as your Committee un derstand that much inconvenience is experienced at Edit:- burgh, the seat of the principal banks, as well as the Courts of Justice of the country, being thus the commer cial as well as the judicial capital of that part of the island, owing to the time of the arrival of the mail after bank h o urs,producing thereby many inconvenient and embarras sing questions as to the noting and acceptance of bills. Influenced by a desire to remove such inconveniences, the gentlemen of Mid-Lothian and Berwickshire have already completed a very large portion of the improvements on that part of the road which lies within their counties, and which were recommended by Mr. Telford, and the re mainder of such improvements are either contracted for or Minot being so, in the earnest expectation that some mea sure will be adopted by Parliament, through the medium of a Parliamentary Commission, to carry into effect the improvement or this whole line to the south, in such direction and in such manner as such Corn ruissiioners shall recommend, attending with impartiality to the interests of all parties, as well of those that are si tuated upon, as of tliesce that are placed at the extremities of the line. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. rstit'.Rlftll, 17 DIE MARTI', 1830. LORD VISCOUNT 11ORPETH in the Chair. Thomas Telford, Esq. called in, and examined—By what road does the mail coach travel from London to Edinburgh ?—lt goes by Ware, Huntingdon, Newark, York, Newcastle, and Berwirk. What is the distance ?—The distance by the mail road is 399 miles. What is the state of this road with respect to its direc tion as to bills? —It is very hilly and very circuitous, and it is otherwise imperfect. Through the whole extent of the road ?—Not alto gether ; there are some districts in which it is better than in others,, but it is very hilly and very circuitous taking the whole roati, so much so that I think, between London and Edinburgh, with proper management, upwards of 30 miles might be saved in the distance. What surveys have you ever made, showing what im provements could be effected ?—I have made between London and Newark two regular surreys, between Newark and Newcastle I have made three, and between Newcastle acd Edinburgh I have made two surveys. Takicg what route ?—I took one route by the present mail road, by; Ware which I have described ; and I took the other by Barnet, 'ant thence to Newark; and from Newark I took three, one by Vor1; ; one by BoroughliricLe to meet at Darlington, and a third by 13os:1ton-on-Tees ; from Newcastle I took one by Wooler and Coldstream, and anoth& by Berwick. What would be ,the distance from London to Edinburgh if the improvements you Laye swgested a were dopted ? Deducting 2 9 or 30 miles teem Bf.), that would reduce it to 369. What road does the mail coach travel to Carlisle and Port I-tatri s ak ?—lt travels by Northampton, Derby, Manchester, Preston; Carlisle, and Dumfries to Port Pa nick, and by that mail rout the distance is 421 miles. Can you state what road the Carlisle is..',- Glas:gow mail travel.;?--It travels by Barnet, Newark, Doncaster, .r_eeds, and over Staic—ure, by Penrith and Carlisle. What is the distance by that road to Carlish?-1 have never surveyed the road, therefore it is only from the Pos.- office route I can state that ; I never surveyJ any of the road from Linden to Port Patrick, except from Cu - lisle to Gretna. Are you acquainted with tite state of that road ?—I think 1 am pretty generally acquainted with it ; J have not been beyond Dumfries lately, but I know from Dam fries to Lr;isle. Are you aequain,Lzt/ with the state of the road between London and Carlisle?.-1: au; not acquainted with the whole of that route. What a'neuld you say of the state of the rot:a `i-1:7; some cases it is very b;d, especially over Stiinmore ; in deed, front Greta Bridge to c.u:lisle is very hilly, and a very bad road. .D 0 you think that road might be material l y im p roved with 1 h respect to direction and to hills?—There is no doubt of it. Do you „Row whether the tanCe might be shortened s between London and Carlisle ?—I do not exactly ; it would partake of all the improvements which 'might be made between London and Newark, which I reckon ten miles by the proposed new line ; what it is beyond that I do not know, because it strikes off from the Edinburgh mail road at Doncaster. You think that ten miles might be saved between London and Newark ?—Yes. You could not save ten miles if the road still went by Ware ?—I compare my line with the Barnet line by Al conbury Hill ; that improvement proceeds by Barnet to Hatfield, and so on to Welwyn, Hitchin, and Shefford. Have you ever surveyed any line that would save Stain more ?—I never have ; I travelled over it many times. You are acquainted with that country ?—Yes. Do you think any better line could be adopted ?—Yes ; I am persuaded there may. Do you know the valley of Wenslydall that runs parallel to the Stainmore line?—l never made a survey of it, but it is quite evident that the line over Stainruore might be improved. You say you have made a survey of the line of road by Wooler, and another by Berwick ; did you ever make a survey of the line of road from Newcastle to Jedburgh ? No ; I made a survey from a place called Scotch Corner, by West Auckland and Hes:ham, to the Scotch border, and I found between Scotch Corner and Ilexhain to be very hilly. When you allude to saving 30 miles between London and Edinburgh, you speak of the Wooler road?--I do, of the Wooler and Coldstream as compared with the 13er wick line. _ When you made that survey between Morpeth and Edinburgh, did you take Coldstream Bridge as a necessary 'Ace to cross the Tweed at?—l did. Would Coldstream Bridge he the natural place to cross the Tweed think it would ; I do not say that it would exactly be the shortest, but it being a large and expensive bridge, I thought a small deviation would not justify the providing a new bridge. Might not the present line through Morpeth and Aln wick be very much improved?--Yes, it may be improved the whole way. You may save very much both in distance and in hills, may you not ?—lt would not save very much in distance; Berwick lies so much out of the right line between Mor peth and alinburgh that there cannot be more than five milee; saved. Every survey was taken with the same im partiality and care as to the statement of facts. The line night be taken nearly level, mi,ht it not?— Not altogether level, but there is no very great difficulty in it. You would make a considerable saving between New castle and Alnwick, would you not?—l do not recollect, not much I believe, unless I bad the survey before me; but I believe not much. Li the saving of five miles between Morpeth and Edin burgh, or between Newcastle and Edinburgh ?—lt is both the savings taken together. Have you made estimates of those lines you have spoken of? Yes; I gave them all into the Post-office, plans, sections, and estimates, and comparative statements. In saving those five miles from Newcastle to Edin burgh, do you not miss the town of Morpeth ?—No, I come through Morpeth. In the survey of the road you made from Morpeth to Alnwick, did you not contemplate going to the east of Morpeth and up a hollow?—No; I went through the town of Morpeth and leaned to the eastward, instead of going up the street to the westward ; I afterwards passed up a hollow on the east side of the town, but I went through Morpeth. You did not make a survey of the road from the east of the town of Morpeth to the turnpike gate on the north of Morpeth, two miles beyond Morpeth ?—I can not go into these particulars without referring to the maps that were made several years ago, but they are de lineated truly on the survey. What do you consider to be the saving of distance be tween Newcastle and Edinburgh going by Coldstream, instead of going by Berwick ?—I stated, that compared with the present road, it would be about 14 or 15 miles. You made a survey of the site of a uew bridge at Mor peth, did you not, last year ?—For a bridge only. Was not the bridge placed exactly by your last survey in the same situation it was by the former survey ?—No ; it was placed further down, it was still in the town, but a little way further down ; there were many different sites pointed out. That you preferred was to the eastward of the town, was it not?-1 placed it just below the weir, on a direct line with the front of the new gaol. You have contemplated a road from the rectory at Morpeth, down the hollow, to come round to the east near the new gaol, and so continue to Alnwick, have you not ?--I have, but it was not thought proper to adopt that ; the principal object I could see there was, that it would take the road by the bask by the new gaol, instead of the front of it, that was the only objection that I could see, and it was some little reason, it is a fine building ; I surveyed the line by the back, because I thought there would be fewer houses to purchase, and open ground to go on at the back of the gaol ; it made very little difference as to the public thoroughfare, whether it went by the back or the front. In that instance the road would have come further to the east into the town of Morpeth ?—Perhaps 100 yards. Do you remember the alteration you proposed to make at Catchburn ?—Yes. The present bridge at Morpeth is situate so as to serve that alteration ?—lt is. Would the nearest line of road between London and Edinburgh go through the city of York ?—The surveys will show that ; I surveyed two lines, and I found very little difference in distance between them, but they are both laid down upon the plan in every respect, and t h ere are sections and estimates for each line. It appears that you have made cut, by the different sur veys you have trade, that you could gain 36 miles between London and Edinburgh ; to-day you state that you could save 30 miles ; you say you could save 10 between London and Newark, six between Newark and Morpeth, an d h ow many between Morpeth and Edinburgh?—Fourteen, making about 30 altogether. Did you not make out that you could save 19 between Morpeth and Edinburgh ?--I do not recollect that I did. Might not a considerable saving be made between North allerton and Darlington if it was not for the river that in the winter time prevents carriages using the short road that turns out about half way between these two towns ? I took a great deal of pains there and laid down the whole, but I cannot now recal the details sufficiently to my recol lection to speak or enter into particulars. Sir Henry Parnell, Bart., Member of the Committee, examined—Have the goodness to state what course was puisucd with respect to the Commission on the Holyhead road, so far as it will be useful to the object of the present inquiry ?---I suppose the Committee would wish to have a general explanation of the course of proceedings by which that road has been improved. There was a Committee appointed by the House in the year 1615, for the purpose of inquiring into the state of this road, and the report of that Committee contained a recommendation to appoint a Commission to superintend the improvement of it. A survey of the road through Wales had been made by Mr. Telford in the year 1810. A Commission was appointed, and the sum of .QO,OOO/. voted for commencing improve ments in North Wales. In the year 1817 another Com mittee of the House was appointed, which took into con sideration the state of the road between London and Wales, and recommended that the Treasury should direct a survey to be made by Mr. Telford, of that road. Ile made two reports, one in 1819 and the other in 1620, which were laid before the House, and in which he showed, by plans attached to his reports, 24 different improvements that were desirable to be made. In order to carry those plans into effect, the Parliamentary Commissioners obtained loans from the Exchequer Bill Commissioners, and also obtained poke; from Parliament to have additional tolls levied on the road for the purpose of repaying those loans. In the year 1823 the Treasury recommended that, in the place of the Parliamentary Commissioners applying to the Lx chequer Bill Commissioners, they should make their ap plications to the Treasury, and receive advances of money on votes cf the House, by way of loan directly front the Treasury. The general recruit is that nearly all the im provements recommended by Mr. Telford in his reports of 1619 and 1820 have been carried into effect with the ad vance of a sum of about 130,0001. ;e that between London and Shrewsbury, or between London and eielyheed ?—Between London and Watling street, eleven miles on this side of iiAirewsbury. Fifty four thousand pounds were advanced by the Exchequer Bill Commissiouere, and the rest on votes of the House by the Treasury. The plan, of repayment by additional tolls has so far been successful, that it eppe irs by a paper laid before the House this Session, that 40,0181. of principal mone y has been repaid to the Exchequer Bill Cofmnis sioners, and 13,0581. of interest, besides which some payments have been made by the Parliamentary Com m iseioners to the Treasury. I can state the different works which have bsen carried into effect in England, if it be desired ; they have been chiefly confined to getting rid of bad in different parts of the road, so as to render the road free of any thing like a difficult hill. It is this th at elves this road' the great advantage it has over other roads in fast travelling, for the coachmen can drive as fast as they please doWn nearly all the hills without danger, and iu this way allow their horses to go quietly up them. Are you aware at whet rate the mail travels?—The 'r 7o Holyhead mail leaves London at eight in the evening, and arrives at Holyhead, a distance of 261 miles, at one o'clock on the second morning. What is the average rate of travelling ?—lt is exactly nine miles an hour including all stops ; the contractors are willing, I believe, to perform the journey in a❑ hour less. Have you any clear idea of how much less wear and tear to horses there is on the Holyhead road than on others?—From my own observation lam certain there is no road where horses work with more ease, and where fast travelling can be carried on with a slighter or cheaper de scription of horse. Has not there been a general diminution of horse labour over all the great roads ?—I am aware that there has been, but that has been in consequence of the extremely defec tive state of all the roads 10 or 12 years ago ? they still are all very far from being what they ought to be. Are you aware whether on the Holyhead road, on the breaking up of the frost, the mails were much delayed ? --I have been told that the road from Birmingham to Wednesbury was very much broken up, and some other parts, but not to any great extent. I know that no part of it which has been under the care of the Parliamentary Commissioners was injured by the frost; those parts of the road which were injured by the weather are parts over which the Parliamentary Commissioners have in point of fact no direct controul; their powers and proceedings have been confined to the improvement of particular parts of the road, the rest of the road has re mained under the care of the trustees; there are some districts where the funds of the trustees are but moderate, and it has not been in their power to make the roads so strong as to bear such winters as the last. The trustees have generally done all they could to improve the road, and they have improved it prodigiously, but still some parts are very defective because they are too weak ; there is not a sufficient body of materials laid on to give them the strength roads ought to have to be able to stand in such weather as that of the last winter. Are you aware what interest the increased tolls pay on the money that has been lent?—lt varies in different cases ; these additional tolls have been laid on for the purpose of repaying loans borrowed for particular works, and there is no general rate of additional toll; but by examining the accounts which have been laid beinre the House, it would appear that they bear a very considerable proportion to the principal; 40,0001. has been repaid out of 54,0001. bor rowed from the Exchequer Bill Commissioners ; the first loan being in the mouth of May, 181 S, and the last in 1823. I calculate at present the amount of additional tolls applicable to the repayment of loans is 11,0001. per annum, which makes more than 10 per cent. upon the balance due. Have the Parliamentary Commissioners the power of taking the roads out of the !lauds of the trustees, and doing what they please with them ?—No, certainly not ; their powers are very limited ; the power they have of making surveys, and of calling the attention of the trustees to them, has chiefly led to the improvements. In what manner have they the power to take possession of any particular line of road ?—The course of proceeding has been to communicate with the trustees concerning each intended improvement, not making them parties in carry ing the improvement into execution, but only that kind of communication which makes them acquainted with the views of the Commissioners for the purpose of securing their concurrence; the inaprovenients have been carried on the consent of the trustees declared, I believe in all cases, by their resolutions at regular meetings. That can be only from the trustees feeling that the Par liamentary Commissioners are better able to carry them into effect than themselves ?—ln the first Acts there was an arrangement laid out for communication with the trustees ; they were so far made parties, that the plans were laid before them for their consent. At first there was a good deal of jealousy at the interference of the Par liamentary Commissioners, and a good deal of difficulty in carrying on the improvements; but in consequence of the benefits derived from the improvements by all parties, pu'ilic as well as local, and of the satisfactory man ner in which the works have been executed and the money applied, the trustees are on the best terms with the Commissioners, and of late they have been in the habit of coming forward to ask the Parliamentary Commis sioners to undertake new works. Have the Parliamentary Commissioners any power over the funds of the different trusts through which they pass, to apply them to the execution of any works under their orders?—No, we never had any power over their funds, and never interfered with them in any way. Are the funds of the trustees ever applied to the works carried on by the Parliamentary Commissioners?—The trustees of the Stratford and Dunehurch road wished an improvement to be made at Old Stratford, and having a fund of their man, they proposed to the Parliamentary Commissioners to vest this fund in their hands to make that improvement; the proposal was accepted, and the work has been executed. What has been the coarse of proceeding where you made an alteration of the road ?—Having arranged every thing for making an improvement, we have been obliged to come to Parliament every year for powers to raise additional tails to repay the loan which the Treasury has agreed to advance. The work is then executed by contract ; and there has been a provision in each Act that the road should remain under the Parliamentary Commissioners for two years, and then be transferred to the trustees. There is no part of the English funds of the trustees you offer as security for repairs, or the borrowing of the money for repairs in Wales?—No, the road has been made in Wales by Parliamentary grants ; the state of the road there was such, and the funds from tolls so pcor, that it was impossible to do any thing without grants. Have you ever had much difficulty in carrying those numerous improvements into effect ?—ln the first instance there was a good deal of difficulty arising from the very limited powers of the Com missioners. Mr. Telford gave a plan for making a road to go round the hills at Mockliffe; but the trustees opposed it so much as to make us think it would be impossible to make any- improvement of the road with out adopting their plan of lowering the hills, which was done at an increased expense of upwards of 1,0001. be yond the sum required for making the line Mr. Telford had proposed avoiding them. In another case, at the hill at Cuttlemil, we were oisliged in the same way to yield to the wishes of the trustees. I do not remember that the trustees have since interfered with us; they now see that Mr. Telford's plans are the best, and we have had very little difficulty of late in carrying them into effect. Under what regulations do you carry the improvements into effect ?—All the work is done by contract. There has been sometimes a great deal of work going on : in the year 1825, we had at one time on hand the building of the two suapen , ion bridges in Wales ; 17 contracts for road making in Wales, five in England ; very extensive works in the harbours of Holyhead and Howth, and the new making of the road from Howth to Dublin. After the contracts are agreed to, and deeds executed, the work is superintended by Mr. Telford's assistants, one of whom has charge of the bridges and roads in Wales, and another of the contracts between London and Shrewsbury. In spectors in some instances are employed, where the works are far asunder, whose duty it is to be on the works from the tiate the men come in the morning till they leave the works in the evening, and watch all the proceedings of the contractors. Can you state from your own knowledge whether the improvement in the road has increased travelling upon it? —The travelling has increased immensely. I was ap pointed last summer by the Commissioners to go down the road with the assistant secretary, to examine into the state of the accounts, with respect to the loans and the repay ment,: by the additional tolls ; that gave me an opportu nity of looking into the accounts of the different trusts, and, among other inquiries, I examined what the tolls were before any new works were begun, and what the tolls now are, belonging to several of the trusts, exclusive of the addi tional tolls for paying off loans ; I found, in the case of the Hockliffe and Stratford trust, the tolls let in 1819 for 1,7 , 131., and that the same rate of tolls produced in 1828 2,0831. ; that upon the Stratford and Dunchurch trust, i❑ 1819, the tolls produced 3,5631., and in the year 1828 the saute rate of tolls produced 5,0761.: this being a trust about mid-way from London to Birmingham, the travelling on it shows what is the general travelling on this whole line; in the case of the Dunchurch and Stonebridge trust, the increase has been so great that the trustees lowered their tolls last year, so that the present rates of tolls paid, including the additional tolls, are the same that were formerly levied by the trustees for their own purpo,,es ; that trust I know has at present a surplus of 2,0001. in bank. Do you know whether the increase in the tolls to Bir mingham upon this line of road has caused any diminu tion on any other lines of road ?—I should imagine it must, for I know that several coaches to Birmingham have come off the (Word line, as well as a great deal of posting to the Coventry road, Do you know whether the trustees collected them them selves in 1819, or whether they were then let by public auction?—.When first I knew the road, some of the tolls were let, and some not ; but with the exception of the Stratford and Dunchurch trust, I never heard of any loss on account of tolls, or in any case of any impropriety of conduct in managing the tolls. Can you state that there has been any diminution in the expense of repairs in those parts of the road which have been improved ?—ln some places where the mate- rials have been very good the expense of repair has been quite a trifle: there is a piece oft road between Coventry and Meriden, made by Mr. Telford, on his plan of put ting a paved foundation, with a coating of broken stones ; the stones being remarkably hard, the heaps prepared for repairs remained on the sides of the road for three or four years afterwards, there being no occasion to use them : if, however, a road is ever so well made i❑ the first in stance, unless the materials are good, it will cost a good deal in repairs; but in proportion as a road is made strong, and particularly if made with a proper founda tion (a stone pavement, where it can be got), the sub sequent repair of it can be secured at a much lower rate of charge than that incurred in repairing roads made in the usual way. Do you know whether the great improvements that have been made in any case caused any local burthens ? I am sure there has been no charge of that kind on the road. No burthen has been thrown on the parish ?—I do not know of any instance of the kind. To what extent had Mr. Telford a general superintend ence of the making of the road ?—Mr. Telford acts under orders of the Board, and these being given to him for any particular work, he prepared the plans and the specifica tions fur a contract ; when the contract is agreed to, and the deed executed, his assistant sets out the work and su perintends the proceedings of the contractor.. The success of our measures has been owing to the particular care with which Mr. Telford arranges his specifications and drawings of the works before the contracts are made, and subsequently to the very strict and severe inspection he es tablishes over the contractors ; and further, to the plan of payment he always introduces into his contracts, which is, having the work measured every fourth week, and a cer tificate given for the payment of what is finished accord ing to the specification ; at the same time that a reduction is made of 10 per cent., to be kept back till the whole work is given over by the contractor, so as to have a fund in the hands of the Commissioners to be expended by them on the works if the contractor does not fully comply with the terms of the contract. In consequence of this arrange ment, I know we have not exceeded in any instance on the English part of the road, and I believe it has been the case in Wales, the price agreed to be given fur the work con tracted for; we have never paid more than the price originally agreed to : where matters have occur red to make it necessary to find fault with the con tractors,' and to be dissatisfied with the work, we have always had sufficient money in hand to complete the work as it ought to have been originally done, without in curring any additional expense. It appears that in the Sixth Report, in 1819, Mr. Tel ford estimated the road across Anglesea at 52,0001. ; in 1823 there is an additional estimate to complete it, of 10,4491., and also a mixed account of 17,0001. for the Menai bridge?—bay former answer referred to the prices agreed to be given to contractors to execute certain pieces of work at certain prices; I believe that in no instance has more been paid fcr executing the works. With regard to the estimate for the road across the island of Anglesea, I am not competent to speak at this moment to the facts included in the question put to me—there was no money granted separately for the Anglesea road ; the grants were made for this toad and the Menni bridge conjointly ; I am able, however, to say that this road of 21 miles across the island, was executed for a sum below Mr. Telford's esti mate, as to the work of road-making ; but in the line there was an embankment to be made across a strait of the sea, at a place called the Stanley Sands, about three quarters of a mile in length ; the forming of this embankment in a situation exposed to the open sea necessarily was a matter of prodigious difficulty to accom plish ; notwithstanding, however, that difficulty, the work was most successfully accomplished, and it has stood re markably well. If any excess in the expence took place in making the Anglesea road beyond the original estimate, (which I believe was the case, but not to a great amount), I am certain the cause of it was the great difficulty in forming this long and high embankment with common earth in the sea, with the end of the embankment exposed to be washed away by a violent current on the rising and falling of every tide. The contract was by the cubic yard. The expence incurred on the Menai bridge was greater than the estimate, because the plan was altered after the estimate was made. The St. Alban's improvement was estimated at 10,000/. ; a subsequent account made it between 15,000/. and 16,000/. ?—ln the case of the St. Alban's road, where two miles and a quarter of new road was made from St. Alban's to a place called Pondyards, the road was made for the price agreed for with the contractor; the extra expence was in some degree owing to branch roads and other things required for the accommodation of parties connected with the road, but more particularly by the ex cessive damages the Commissioners were obliged to pay for houses taken down for the making the road through the town. The estimate referred to was not an estimate for road-making ; it was composed of what money was wanted for road making as well as for damages for land and houses. All the particulars of the expence incurred in making this road are given in an account in the Appendix to the Re port of tile Committee of this House in 1828, on the state of the Barnet and Sr. Albania roads. What rule was principally followed in the appointment of Commissioners?—Ten Commissioners were appointed by the Act of 55 Geo. 111., for the improvement of the Holyhead road ; in the year 1823 the Committee on the Holyhead road recommended a consolidation of the Com mis:don of the Holyhead road, the Commission of Holy head harbour, and the Commission of Howth harbour ; in 1823 an Act was passed for that purpose, and then the number si Commissioners was increased by taking a cer tain number of the Commissioners of each harbour. Were they paid Commissioners ?—No. Did the Commissioners or the Committee order the different surveys ?—The Committee of 1817 recommended that the Treasury should order a survey from London to Wales. Of late years there has been no general survey made; the surveying for the purpose of making plans for improvements has been executed by the assistant engi neers resident on the roads, without any particular charge for suryeys. Were the expences of the Commissioners paid ?—The travelling expellees of the Commissioners are paid when they are acting with the officers of the Commission, on the business of it. Were the Commissioners named in the Act or by the Treasury ?—They have bee❑ named in the Acts, except in one instance, when the Treasury were empowered to name three Commissioners. From the experience you have had, have you anything to recommend as to the course to be pursued, in case of the improvement of another great line of road being taken into hand ?—From the experience I have had of Mr. Tel ford's method of carrying on road improvements, and of the system established under it, also of the training of the officers belonging to our establishment to their different duties, I have no doubt of the competency of our Board to carry on road improvements to any extent without the smallest difficulty. In the year 1827, I was applied to by the Treasury to assist in the carrying into effect the im provement of the Liverpool road. Mr. Telford had been employed by the Treasury to make surveys of that road. I agreed to do so ; and by the Act passed in that year, this road was placed under our care, in the same manner us the Holyhead road. We have been since occupied in making improvements; some of the local parties concerned have required mere surveys, and these have been made, — In the last year I was at Lichfield, and arranged a plan with the trustees for making four miles of new road from Lichfield to Brereton, on the road to Wolesley bridge; and in consequence of Mr. Telford pointing out other improve ments, a Bill is now before the House for a new Turnpike Act, to enable the parties who have applied for it to make twelve miles of a new road between Coventry and Lichfield, by which wady four miles of road will be saved, and several hills avoided. The trustees of the road from near Stone through Newcastle to T a lk-on-the-Hill, have made several valuable improvements according to Mr. Telford's plans, and manage their road in every way after his instruci.ions. As nearly all the improvements on the Holy head road are completed, and also the works at the harbours of Holyhead and Howth, it is not necessary to continue the present commission as it is at present con stituted ; and therefore, if it were thought advisable to take advantage of the experience that has been acquired in conducting road improvements, in carrying on the ge neral improvement of the northern roads, a new commis sion might be formed in the place of the present one, com posed of as many new Commissioners, and such a number of the present Commissioners, as together would form a commissio❑ in every respect proper and competent to su perintend the improvement of the northern roads. By taking this course, the plan of management which has been in every respect so successful on the Holyhead read, might be applied with as little difficulty to the northern roads as it has been to the Liverpool road. Does the conduct of that commission belong to the Board of Woods and Forests ?—By the Act of 55 Geo. HI. the first Commissioner of Woods and Forests is a Commis sioner of the roads, but he has no particular powers. At the time this Act was passed the Treasury directed, in order to keep down the expense of an establishment, that the meetings of the Commissioners should be held at the office of the Woods and Forests ; on appointing our officers, if I recollect correctly, the then Chairman of the Woods and Forests, Mr. Huskisson, recommended that the Secretary of Woods and Forests should act as our secretary. Is it your opinion that in the new weeks to be under- , . taken ty the Commissioners, h would be necessary to liars officers, such as secretaries and others, who will neces sarily have to receive salaries for transacting the business which comes under their cognizance ?—Certainly officers must be employed, but the establishment may be kept up at a very moderate expence, if the same officers we now have were continued. What would be the expence ?—The same establishment we now have would be sufficient. We have a secretary and an assistant secretary; the first has 2001. a year, anti the other has 1001. a year. This is the whole of the ex pence in London ; Mr. Telford is paid for the time he is employed. Are all the charges of the establishment defrayed from the general income of the road ?—They have been de frayed by annual votes of the House. If Mr. Milne could not continue in the employment as secretary of the Commissioners, and a new person was to be employed who would devote the whole of his time to it, would not an increase be necessary ?—I do not think any increase would be necessary, for one secretary, I think, would be able to discharge the whole business; receiving the two salaries now given to Mr. Milne and his assistant. FIRST SERIES. APPENDIX, NO. I. MEMORIAL FROM THE DUKE OF ATHOLL AND OTHERS. Unto the Right Hon. the Lords Commissioners of his Majesty's Treasury. The Memorial of the several Noblemen and Gentlemen whose names are respectively signed hereto,— Sheweth,—That the distance between London and Edit: - burgh by York is 397 miles, to run which the mail takes fifty-eight hours. The distance between these two places by West Auckland and Jedburgh is, by the present country ; road, 370 miles, which it is conceived may be reduced to 360 miles, a distance which may be run in forty-five hours by accelerating the mail to the rate of the Bristol and Holyhead coaches, and giving it no road duty to per form until it passes Boroughbridge. That in part of the execu tion of this plan, the heritors of the counties of Mid- Lothian, Selkirk, and Roxburgh, have at a great expence completed a new road from Edinburgh towards the borders of England, pursuing the course of the rivers, whereby the hills are avoided. That that portion of the road which is situated between the borders and Boroughbridge is vet only ill-made, narrow, crooked, and dangerous, but is at the same time carried to the tops of the loftiest mountains and the bottoms of the deepest vallies, rendering it totally un' fit for public communication and intercourse. That your memorialists have no power to go beyond the boundaries of Scotland to obtain a survey, or to employ engineers t° suggest the best and most approved line to conduet the projected road, through the counties of Northumberland? Durham, and York, as far as Boroughbridge ; but that if this was accomplished, your memorialists rely on their being able to apply to the gentlemen of the English counties with success, for their aid and support in carrying this road into effect, which, while it is of the greatest conse quence to the national interests of Scotland, in a political , judicial, and commercial point of view, holds out at the same time considerable local advantages by intersecting . with a great line of communication one of the most remote? inaccessible, and least improved districts of England. Your memorialists trust that the mere statement of these facts will be sufficient to point out the importance object, and that your Lordships will be pleased to dir ect Mr. Telford to make a survey and report on the nature a nd practicability of this road, in the same manner your Lor d ' ships have employed him on the Holyhead and Carlis le roads, in order to enable your memorialists to lay the Van e before the gentlemen of the English counties, for the pu re pose of obtaining their concurrence in an application t :1 Parliament for leave to bring in a Bill to carry this &di ce into effect. of 610 (Signed) Athol!. Iledesdale. Stafford. W. Dumb's. Minto. J. Drummond. Melville. Thomas Mackenzie• July, 1819. APPENDIX, NO. 2. MEMORIAL FROM LORD VISCOUNT MORPET AND OTHERS. To the Right Honourable the Lords Commissioners of Id Majesty's Ti easury. The Memorial of the several Persons whose Names It'i hereunder written,.— Sheweth,—That your Memorialists, understanding tha t Mr. Thomas Telford, civil engineer, has received direction l from your Lordships to survey and make a report o f a pro' posed new line of road through West Auckland, in Oil county of Durham, and Corbridge, in the county e Northumberland, to Jedburgh in Scotland, with a view shortening the communication between London and E.ll burgh ; humbly represent to your Lordships that the conceive a shorter and more commodious line of road °, the public may be obtained from Greta Bridge, thro u l ll Alstone, Knaresdale, Denton, Askerton, and Bewcastle , the counties of Cumberland and Northumberland, to Ned castleton, in Scotland, from which place there is nova straight and direct line of road to Edinburgh. Your memorialists therefore pray that your Lordsh! will take the subject into your consideration, and will gi c such orders and directions to Mr. Telford for making survey of the said line of road from Greta Bridge to Ne t castleton, and to report thereon to your Lordships. (Signed) Morpeth. Thomas Parker. Jacob Maude. George Bnustead. R. Moun'ey. J. Graharn,of Edme Gi S. Mounsey. castle. William Sisson. T. H. Graham. G. G. Mounsey. W. P. Johnson, of v ; T. Rainshay. ton-house. T. Wallace. Quintin Blackburn , George Gilhanks. Thomas Ramshay, / 1/ R. Richardson. George Graham. Thos. Park. Thomas Mill. Joseph Park. James Graham. Thos. Haugh. John Burrough. Win. Martin. William Richardson' John Scott. William Tinting. Thos. Corbett. H. Lancaster. Josh. Forster. Thomas Halliburte J. Hetherington. Thomas Gill. Wm. Milburn. Lancelot Townley. John Waugh. Joseph 11. Brown. Thos. Richardson. October, 1819. APPENDIX, NO. 3. MEMORIAL FROM THE EARL OF HOME, - EARL OF HADDINGTON, AND OTHER' To the Right Honourable the Lords Commissioners ° f Majesty's Treasury. The Memorial of the several Noblemen and Gentle d whose Names are hereto subscribed,— Sheweth,—That on the memorial of several noble: and gentlemen presented to your Lordships last year , ji were pleased to direct Mr. Telford to survey part of of road from Boroughbridge by West Auckland And ar i burgh to Edinburgh, with the view of making a ell, line of communication between London and Edinburiii That the memorialists conceiving that a still more c/, ble line of communication between the two capitsl i oi, , be made, beg leave to state that by the turnpike"( which leaves the present mail-road at Motpeth and If h ceeds by Wooler to Edinburgh, the distance is alrey miles shorter than by the present snail-road by Bey, and may be still further shortened and greatly impel That not only will this line be found to approach 'of, in shortness the one suggested by Jedburgh, but as lips, road and as a general line of communication will be p , gr eatly preferable, by passing through the great to,'" 0 far as Morpeth and Wooler, and afterw ards by °el,,j ot h e r towns in Scotla n d ;—whereas the line by Je d , . wo uld for the most part pass through a desert countoo", inland, and would be very liable to be obstructed 1 )1 w ithout a population sufli&ent to clear it speedily. ~ That the trust ees on that part of the ro ad front MO' f , t o Edinburgh, which lies in Scotland, haying had of it made by the late Mr. Abercrombie , a very eo l / road surveyor, have already at a grea t expense ex' part of the improvements suggested by him, and al ce eding to execute others as speedily as the muds ° se veral trusty will permit, but stilt a' part of tbej through N'orthumberland,f,atol particulallr where it i) , ov e r Riniside Moor is steep and incommodious ; t ip Sects, however, of this part of the road, the inesnersh are satisfied might be easily removed, and the ge ver oi periority of the whole line ascertained, were a proper o f of the country made by a skilful engineer, but this e p neither the powers nor the means of the mesnorialis t6 theist to direct. The memorialists therefore pray, that in order e et o; tain the eligibility as a line of communication V, e i London and Edinburgh, your Lordsh i p s will be p ie direct Mr. Telford to make a surrey of the road ft fro f . '- petit by Wooler to Edinburgh, in the same msnoe Las done. Carlislu, (Sign( E. PETIT Unto tl The Pe tei dir ceived " the ei " for le " from " Edin Select mons t] the mir relative dent to well as will be sneasur went, In t funds ( of thre ParliaL order trust a come of 29i pence the in expens Oyer 1931. of ro effect, Berwi which printe mons, funds being of the Unior line,ol new 1 rate c count fourtl most in sta tereel provi of re be in persc tbeii woul of I matt to / mak for t true out ugai tinue limn road June, it wi prese woul 1