The Sun. — London, England, 1831-04-21 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAM E NT• ROUSE OF LORDS, APRIL 20. Lord BOLTON took tl e o-the and hiss seat. Lord KINNOULL presented a petition from the Free boilers, Justices of Peace, and Commissioners of Supply. of the county of Perth, against she measure now before Parliament, on the subject of Reform. Lord SUFFIELD presented nearly 500 petitions from different parts of the country a gaiirt slavery. Lord AUCKLAND presented 132 petitions to the same tffect. Sir A. GRANT and others, from the Commons, brought up the Duchy of Cornwall Leases Bill, the Colonial Inter course Bill, and some Private Bills. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented several petit' ons from Castle Bayou d against Reform. The Duke of GORDON presented petitions from Elgin and Ross against the Reform Earl GREY presented petitions in favour of the Reform Bill from Carnarvon, Fife, Reigate, Hastings, and sigh other places. The Earl of lIADDINGTON presented petitions Iron , Edinburgh against Reform. THE TIMES NEWSPAPER. Lord KING—My Lords, I have a petition to present to your Lordships from the gentleman who was at the bat of the House yesterday—l mean Mr. Lawson, the printer of the Times newspaper, who is now in custody under your Lordships' order. I move that the iretition be now read. The petition was read by one of the clerks of the House as follows : TO THE RIGHT HON. THE LORDS SPIRITUAL AND TEMPORAL. " 'The huinble petition of John Joseph Lawson, the printer of the Times, now in custody. showeth,—That your petitioner feels the sincerest regret at having given offence to your Right Hon. House, and to the Earl of Limerick in particular, and craves pardon for the same; and humbly begs, in consequence of this acknowledgment of his error, and regret, he may he set at liberty by your Right Hon. House. " And your petitioner will ever pray. JOHN JOSEPH LAWSON." The Earl of LIMERICK—My Lords, I know not whe ther it is necessary for me, after what I have already said on a previous occasion, again to repeat that in bringing forward this subject, I have been actuated by no personal feeling or mo'ier. I did it merely on the ground of what I considered a gross attack having been made through an individual Member of it upon your Lordships' House by the publication in question. Having so done, and your Lordships having coins to the decision that the paragraph complained of contained a gross libel on the individual who has the honour to address you, I conceive that I have done my duty towards your Lordships and myself. I declared at the time of bringing this subject under consideration that which I now repeat—namely, that I sought not then (nor do I now) for the infliction of ally severe punishment whatever upon the individual con cerned. I am, however, perfectly aware that for former off noes of a nature similar to this, but inferior in point of atrocity, very severe punishments have been inflicted. My Lords, I can show that parties have been sent to New gate for three months for matters much lighter than the present. There was put in my hands this morning a paper containing two-precedents of very serious punish ments for breaches of privilege. The first case is that of Flower (as we understood the Noble Earl to say, but can not he certain as to the name, on account of the low and indistinct tone in which this part of the speech was de livered), and the other is the case of Mr. Perry, the Editor of the Morning Chronicle. It occurred on the 21st and 22d of March; 1798. There was something comical in this breach of privilege. I refer, of course, to the tenni: of the libel, which arose under these circum stances :—Some oloeivations were made in the House of Lords on the late hou:s at the Opera, and on the fact of the an;usenients being sometimes continued so as to push them into the Sunday mornine ; also upon the almost naked ' dresses of die ladies. In reference to this the Morning chronicle made the following remarks :—" The House of Lords must now be admitted to be highly important as a political assembly, notwithstanding it has of late ! appeared to be nettling more than a chamber where the Minister's edirte are re iistered for form's sake. Some of their Lordship" are determined to vindicate their lin portance. It is there that the dresses of the opera. dancers are regulated ! One of the Roman Emperors lecurninended to the Senate, when they were good for no thing else, to discuss what was the best sauce for a turbot. ' To regulate the length of a petticoat is a much more gen- ' • teel employtnent." This paragraph having been brought 'limier the consideration of the House, was declared to he a gross and scandalous libel, and a breach of the privileges of the House ; and Mr. Perry, and Lambert the printer of the paper, were committed to Newgate fur three 'rond,. .My Lords, I merely mention this to show your Lordships 'what were the feelings and what the , conduct of the House of Lords at that period referred to, in reference to facts not nearly so cross as the present ; but at the same time that I refer to the precedent, I have no intention to push this question to au extremity of punishment, and whatever your Lordships may decide in relation to it will be per fectly acceptable to me, knowing as I do that your deter mination will he guided by justice, temper, and moderation. The Earl of MANSFIELD said be felt disposed to move that tie petition do lie upon the table, and that it be taken into further consideration to-morrow. Lord KING—I am sorry that the Noble Earl has made that observation. According to the feeling of the House yesterday, when Air. Lawson was called to the bar (if be bad not dec:.!ned to answer some questions put to him), the souse to be pursued would have been to have had him ',prim aided and disclierged at that time. Following up the course which the opinion of the House seemed yester day t o dictate. I felt inclined to move that the petitioner be now called to the bar, reprimanded, and discharged. The Earl of MALISIESZUIti and Earl BATHURST FOSe tCe gether : the former giving way, the latter Noble Lord said two or three words, as well as wet could understand, to the effect that lie wished the House to be cleated. The Earl of MALMESBURY—I cannot approve of the Noble Lord's suggestion, beciuse, so far from wishing to conceal our proceedings from the public, I hardly con ceive it possible to give them sufficient publicity.— (Cheers.) I ant one of those who are disposed to main tain your Lordeltips' privileges, but I feel conlideut that our privileges can be better maintained by public than by private discussions.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the proceeding to be adopted is this case, I bad a motion is my band yesterday, that the printer be called to the bar, reprimanded, and discharged. I propose that the Noble Baron, who presented the petition, should make a like motion to-morrow. It might be thought premature to make it toolay, as many Lords, who were present yester day may not be prepared to entertain it at this tnoment. Under all the circumstances of the case, I think it will be ' better for the Noble Lord to give notice of motion for to morrow. Earl GREY—I entirely agree with my Noble Friend I who spoke last, that when we are called on to consider a case like the present, and to enter into the question of privilege, there is considerable advantage in having our proceedings more especially public. Let it be borne in rutnd that in nicking this remark I by no moms say that eases may not arise for proceeding with closed doors, but, generally speaking, I am of opinion that in order effec tually to maintain the character, dignity o muLpriviteges of the House, it is better for your Lordships to proceed with out any secrecy whatever.—(Hear.) I am the rather anxious to lay down this principle, as in many cases of privilege the House has been cleared, at the same time that in others a contrary, and as I think a better, course has been taken. In the case of a complaint of breach of privilege arising a short time ago out of a message sent by an indiVidual to a Noble Lerd, which message was in terpreted to be in the nature of a challenge. I objected to the House being cleared, as was proposed, stating that I thought it better that the proceedings should take place in pirtiiite and accordingly they were so conducted. It was upon the principle of expediency that in that (as in the present case) I recommended that the orders of the House for the exclusion of strangers should not be enforced. With respect to what is to follow, I feel inclined towards the course recommended by the Noble Earl opposite. My Lords, I should feel inclined in the present case, taking Into consideration all the circumstances of it, and recol lecting the Noble Earl's disposition not to enfotce any ex tsretete penalty (although he quoted examples of severity-- foe what p ur p ose i s i t not f or me t o s a y), I say I should feel well contented to call Mr. Lawson to the bar imme diately, to have trim reprimanded by the Lord Chancellor, and then discharged fees. B u t paps PVt usual manlier, on payrnsut of his mity of opinio n , ~anpiiire fur a view to conciliate unani may be or b a t r te eason stated by the Noble Earl opposite, is tion of the petition till toeinuerr °r w f to adjourn the considera• a:n calii the underetending that the motion be then agreedto to the bar, and having hina repri d n d gthe individuai e for an offence which he has acknowledged with an expression con trition and regret at its occurrence. eazut that of there will be no objection to the individual being then i e d, and that the discussion may terminate here. lacharilP en The Marquis of LONDONDERRY—I confess, my Lords, I did unde rstand, from the course yesterd a y taken, that it would be competent to any Noble Lord to deliver his sentiments on this subject in the event of the presen tation of a petition, and to take the opportunity to state whether in his opinion the punishment now proposed, or a greater punislorent, should be inflicted. Lords, when the resol ution of the House is, that this individual, or the editor of the paper, has been guilty of a scandalous libel, it appears to me that confinement for a short petiod and a reprimand are but small punishments for the offence. I am not the individual to urge a strong measure of pu nishment, but I think it should he stated distinctly, that it We are dispused•on the present occasion to allow the indi vi lual to escape with a small mark of our displeasure, still f such practices be continued, and if the privileges anti he dignity of the House be attacked in future, that we will -lot be satisfied with the infliction of a light punishment, 'tut will take measures to bring forward the editor, and ndividuale really guilty ; for I cannot believe that the per sun who appeared at the bar was the real author of the libel. I say, my Lords, we must then proceed to dis cover and adequately punish the individual who masks himself under tl e unfortunate man at the bar. I would here observe, that if there are individuals con e, cted together for the purpose of writing such ffensive paragraphs in this or any other papers, I trust they will, if they have any feelings at all, sus tain bitter pangs within their minds, when, on this oc easion, they see. your Lordship reprimand their pub lisher and printer, who, perhaps, bast been merely obliged to comply with ,the milers of his employers. My Lords, when I saw the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack, who I thought should have been a defender of your privi leges, rather than a supporter of their impugners,—when I saw him last night placing himself between the House and such an offender, for the purpose of shielding the lat ter, I really was almost disposed to believe that the Noble and Learned Loud was acting as counsel for a defendant in this proceeding. The LORD CHANCELLOR—My Lords, I rise to or der : at the same time I must say, that, personally, I have no objection to the Noble Lord's course, PM little do I dread its consequences. If I were the Noble Lord's friend, I should dread the consequences to himself ; he is perfectly at liberty, so far as I am concerned, to'go on and make what exposition it may please him to make of me or of himself to your Lordships. I care not one rush for what the Noble Lord can. say,—he may go en with his sarcasms, insinuations, and charges, as he pleases ; but I would rather have the Noble Lord's charges than his insi nuations. I never use insinuations, I always bring direct charges ; I would rather have the Noble Lord's open hos tility than his covert enmity. I am sure he is incapable of persisting in insinuations—the Noble Lord has too much honour and high mindedness for that; tl erefore, as the Noble Lord has hinted something or nothing, I put myself on my defence before your Lordships, and call upon the Noble Lord to charge me with something. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY—I beg the Noble and Learned Lord to believe that no one has a higher re spect for his great and splendid talents ; but with all his logic, and talents, and oratory, the Noble and Learned Lord shall not put me down, or prevent me from dis charging what I conceive to he my duty. The Noble and Learned Lord's great abilities and acquiremeuts may often enable him .6 To make The worse appear the better reason." He possesses commanding eloquence which carries every thing before it like a torrent, and an individual like myself can have but little chance in an encounter with him ; but, ' pigmy as I am, I tell the Noble Lord, that neither he nor any other person shall deter me from taking a proper course. I shall now continue the observations 1 was about to make when interrupted by the Noble and Learned Lord ; and I must say, that I did expect the Noble and Learned Lord to have taken a differet.t part on the occa sion in question. The Noble and Leatned Lord set out last night will telling your Lordships that there was no use in proceeding with the case ; but the House came to a resolution, netnine contradicente, directly against the Noble anti Learned Lord's recommendation. What was the next step taken by the Lord Chancellor ? The Noble and Learned Lord near me having propased fine and impri sonment, the. Chancellor again started up and opposed a punishment which, for my own part, I think would have been well imposed in the present instance. The Lord Chancellor's opinion did weigh with your Lord ships, and the proposition was abandoned. What I submit is, that the Noble and Learned Lord did not take the part' which became him in reference to the gross outrage committed on the feelings of the Noble Earl, and against the privileges of the House.— These are the sentiments which I was about to give utter ance to, when interrupted by the Noble anti Learned Lord, and which lam not now ashamed to express. 1 shall now observe that the unfortunate individual who was yesterday at the bar, is nor, in my opinion, the person most worthy of being visited with punishment. If the petition be brought up, I shall move for a copy of the affidavit depo sited at the Stamp. office, and containing a list of the names of the proprietors of the Times. I give 'notice of my intention to move far this document to-morrow, and I mean to have it produced, because I think we may thus find individuals to tell us at the bar who the real writers of those paragraphs are. Sure I am that Mr. John Joseph Lawson is not one of the writers; lam convinced that in this respect he is as innocent as myself. My Lords, I have so far stated my sentiments on this subject, and when the petition is brought up, er taken into fnrther considera tion, I shall also consider myself at full liberty to express my opinion. I beg the Noble and Learned Lord to believe that I am the last man in the world to fail in respect for his great talents, but if he thinks to overwhelm me by the torrent of his eloquence, he will find him.elf mistakeu. I shall always stand up firmly for what I conceive to be right. The LORD CHANCELLOR—I know not whether I should not better consult your Lordships' feelings and my own by taking no notice of what has been just uttered by the Noble Lord, in one of the most extraordinary speeches which I have ever beard ; but I am desirous of setting myself right ith your Lordships, and with the Noble Marquis whose indignation we have witnessed without k now ing the grounds of it. As for my reason for calling the Noble Lord to order,—it being the first, as it may per haps be the last time in my life that I shall call any Noble Lord to order under similar circumstances,—l do so be rause he saw fit to stigmatise the conduct of an individual Peer, by saying that that individual had acted the part of an advocate or counsel for an offender, at a time when that offender was before him, as one of the Judges of the highest Court in the kingdom. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY—One word in ex planation. I meant to convey, and, indeed, said, that the conduct of the Noble and Leat ned Lord was such as almost to make me believe that the Noble and Learned Lord was the advocate of a defendant. The LORD CHANCELLOR—My Lords, able and skilful orators, like the Noble Marquis, frequently have a cunning way of rendering it difficult to get Ee their mean. ing according to the known and ordinary acceptation of the terms which they employ—(Hear, and laughter).— they wrap up and mystify so successfully ; but I, as your Lordships well know, am a plain man—(A laugh)--and I way, without any subtlety or refinement, that the Noble Lord's mode of 'expressing himself, even now, is such as would almost make me halieve that he meant to insi nuate that my conduct on the occasion in question was :pore worthy of a hired advocate than of an im partial Judge, sitting in the highest court in the realm.— (A laugh.) My Lords, the Noble Marquis is quite right in not allowing any :;,an to prevent him from doing what he conceives to he his dory ; far be it from me to attempt to make the Noble Lord refrain from any given proceeding, of to impede or obstruct hint in the discharge of his Parliamentary duty; but what I beg to ask him to do for his own sake, seeing be has hinted a complaint, for my sake, and for the sake of the dignity of your Lordships' House, (of the privilege of which he is so staunch an up holder) is, that if he has any charge, in connection with this subject, against ine, or any other Member of the House, to state it in an open, manly, and straightforward %vv.—(llean) The charge which, rue Noble Lord has oxprease:l is, that in respect of the individual who yester day appeared at the bar, I played almost the part of an ad vocate, although that person was admitted to have corn tiriqed a breach of privilege, and that, to the Noble Lord's great and unmixed astonishment, instead of taking the part of the Home, and siding against the culprit, went with the offender, aCid against the House, upon a matter declared, nernine dissentients, Lays'the Noble Lord (and if declared without dissent, then must even I have been a party to the declaration), to be a gross infringement of privilege,—a false and scandalous libel. Now just look at the Noble Lord's argument ; the Noble Lord says I sided with the CUiprit, and unfairly endeavoured to bring him off; yet it appears I agreed to the proposition for declaring the paragraph a gross and scandalous libel; so that, ac cording to the Noble Lord's reasoning, I must have been a party to the rejection of my own plan. But the Noble Marquis has given a very imperfect account of the trans action, considering ea; I myself stated to your Lordships whatever might be my advice, founded on experience, as to the expediency of your Lordships ;;;,, , t getting much deeper it, en: difficulty created by prosecuting this breach of privilege, that at all events if you were disposed to go on, it was quite a matter el apurae that your decision must be against the accused, it being perfeatly evident that the article complained of was a breach of privilege. Whether this was an abandonment of the privileges of your Lord !hips' House (and the Noble Lord accuses me of abandon ing thew) I k now not ; I l eave i t t o y our L or dships to determine. Having, in the outset, expressed my opinion as to the character of the offence,l . only offered my adviec deuce,— aclsi c a t s atthemight result hale to of been getting dictatedintou n through i d m pros Lerdehireneicieosussaery sions on the ptivilegea of your shins which can tend to nothing less than to the support of your privileges and dignity. Nothing has passed this night in the face of the public, any more than last night behind the backs of the public, to alter my opinion as to the inexpediency of these discussions. But I was the first to declare myself a friend to the maintenance of the privi leges and dignity of the House, and I was also the first to advise such a comae to be adopted as might render every measure to be taken in this proceeding a measure sanctioned by the unanimity of the whole House. As has been tated, when fine and imprisonment were proposed, I en reated the Noble and Learned Lord who suggested them, not to press the proposition, which, by the way, was never formally made, but only thrown out far consideration. It s only justice to the Noble and Learned Lord to admit that he was under the impression that fine and imprison ment we,e the least punishments that had ever been in flicted under similar circumstances, and upon that account only the Noble and Learned Lord proposed them. But that I should ever agree with the Noble Marquis to fine a man 100/. and commit him to Newoate for six months, ea. a breach of privilege such as this, is al ogether side. I must first have this question tf your Lordships' privileges debated at length. I must open up the ques tion of the right of the House to imprison fir six months nd icflict a fine—it may be of 10,000/.—on an individual, tried by no Jury, and defended by no counsel, because a Noble Lord may complain of his feelings being injured by -t newspaper paragraph. Why, my Lords, if such a prin ciple were to be admitted, one Noble Lord would complain ~f one newspaper, another would direct your attention to a breach of privilege in a second, and the practice might I be extended till your Lordships' House would be conver ed into an inquisition instead of a Gain of Justice. My Lords, before I can admit such a principle, I must have this matter argued ; and if the Noble Marquis thinks it a mere motion of course that the King's subjects shall be sentenced to imprisonment and fines, he is very much mis taken, and will find, that every time such a thing shall be proposed, he and I must inert and battle, fist, the point of law, secondly, the point of privilege ; and if, upon these points, the right of fine and imprisonment be esta blished, then we must dispute the point of justice to the public, of humanity to the individual, and of *deuce and discretion in your Lordships For these reasotts, and be cause I am a friend to the charact, r, privileges, and dig nity of this House, and desirous of upholding them, and not that I act the part of counsel to an offender against your Lordships' privileges,lshall give my vote for the mei sure that will soonest get rid of the difficulty, which it is no fault of mine if it has been created. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY—My Lords, I wish to say a few words in explanation, and though I may he supposed to he writhing under the eloquence of the Noble and Learned Lord, I still think I am able to answer one or two points of his speech. As to the charge which he says I brought against him," I certainly did state that the Noble and Learned Lord's course in the matter, and the argu ments which he used, put me in mind of an advocate; and it appeared to me that if the Noble and Learned Lord had really been arguing the case in the capacity of counsel for the criminal, he could not have spoken with in we zeal or eloquence on his behalf. As to the Noble and Learned Lord's not upholding the privileges cis, the House, my re mark is fully justified, by the speech which he has just delivered ; for in the latter part of it be appears to doubt the existence of those privileges. If the Noble and Learned Lord doubts them I do not ; and I must say, I should much rather have heard the sentiments which he has just utu red on the subject expressed by any one rather than by him. I think the privileges of the House go much further than the Nishle and Learned Lord seems to imagine, and I am sorry for the latter part of this argument, because, being of opinion that fine and imprisonment may he justly in flicted by the House, I am sorry to see the fact questioned by such an authority as the Noble and Learned Lord. Lord WYNFORD—I am much obliged to my Noble and Learned Friend for his explanation of what fell from me on this subject list night. What I said upon that oc casion has been altogether misunderstood. I never moved for fine and imprisonment. I did not propose that fine and imprisonment should be inflicted on Mr. LA meson, but I proposed that what the Noble Lord on the cross-bench threw out on the subject of fine should be adopted; and, as usual in all such cases. that the party should be impri soned till the fine was paid, consistently with the practice adopted in all the courts. But I never dreamt of uniting the two punishments of fine and imprisonment, and I never thought of inflicting a fine till the person at the bar had refused to disclose who was the party concerned in the publication in question. I certainly thought that his re fusal, and his putting himself upon his confidential situ ation, in justification of that-refusal, had aggravated the ease, and on that adeount I propose .hoe- The Noble and Learned Lord on the woolsack, :although he did not directly dispute the authority of the House to inflict fine and imprisonment, appeared disposed to throw some doubt upon it. For my own part, I should tremble to hazard an opinion contrary to that of the Noble and Learned Lord upon this or any other subject, where. I not fortified by some decided authority. Such an authority does exist in the present instance : I allude to the case of " The King and Flower ;" the defendant having been committed by the House, applied to the Court of King's Bench by Habeas Corpus, and no case was ever argued with greater • ability than this by the defendant's Counsel ; yet the Court, without hearing any answer,,at once confirmed the authority of Parliament. This deciUim sets at rest the question of right, and I thought it s'ne to the House to quote it, as the privilege seems to kave been questioned by my Noble and Learned Friend. But although I stand up for the power of the House, and insist upon its authority to fine and imprison, I • would disclaim any intention of acting up to the extent of the power, or any thing hie it : on the contrary, I shall Le quite content with whatever may be done on this occasion which, in the opinion of those mole conversant than so young a Member of the House can possibly be with the practice and privilege of Parliament, shall appear fit. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—I think that this rase should be disposed of at the time proposed by the Noble Lord, and, if possible, with a complete unanimity of feeling on the part of the House ; anti I am happy to col lect that there is at present but little difference of opinion as to the course which may he ultimately expedient to adopt. What I protested against last night was the prin ciple of bringing an individual to the bar without suffi cient notice. I have not expr,ssed my opinion as to the existing authority of the House, but I said that upon a question on which great doubts had been thrown, we ought not to come to a reeultsticn hastily, or acting upon the feeling of the moment, when we :night afterwards wish that our resolution had been adopted after better and more mature consideration. It is but justice to the Noble and Learned Lord-opposite, to admit that his proposition was not persisted in. The first feeling—namely, that the in dividual at the bar should be called up and reprimanded, was abendoued on a comparison of his case with one which had recently occurred, and in which a similar course I was taken. It was thought that what was considered sufficient punishment in the one cue ntight e be too light in the other : besides., in the case of the individual who had received the reprimand, the party was brought at a considerable expense to himself from Ireland, so that the punishment was greater than it could be in the present in ranee. Upon that consideration, and also in reference to a doubt whether Mr. Lawson's apology, to the House, and to the Noble Earl, was sufficiently _ample, the idea of re primanding- and discharging him last night was alien dona. But now both objections a a p i aetritosbeieot rid of_. The individual has been subjected tsi some further confine ment, and may be retained in cuat;dy,till to-morrow, and the petition, which has been readiseipresses his deep se eret at having failed in respect ' to she House, and the Nuble Eat] whose feelings have :been hurt on this occa sion. Thus, both pleas, the inadequacy of the punishment end of the apology, have been removed, and under these circumstances, I put it to your Lordshipe, whether the retire reasonable and lenient course will not be to direct Mr. Lawson to attend at the bar to-morrow, in which ca-e he can be reprimanded and dischatged. In these pro eeedinge my Lords, I can moat readi y concur; but, my Lords, I beg to state now, that if any Noble L' 5.,1 Jaen to-morrow propose to carry the matter any farther then this, I shell meet certainly oppose the proposition of that Noble Lord.—(Hear, hear.) Earl BATHURST—I rise, my Lords, merely to ob serve, that even if the proposition for taking this discus sion with dossed doors can justify, the imputation which has been made by the Noble Earl opposite, stiil I think that it would have been far better if such a proposition had been acceded to. I am far from contending that it is always necessary that your doors should be closed upon every discussion respecting theeptivilegee of your Lord ships ; but I do say that when you have to debate a cool' plaint of libel, or au imputation of libel, or other matter of the like nature, it would be much better in my opinion to deal with such things with closed doors. I am sorry therefere that the order of your Lordships was not en forced to-day ; and after what we have heard, I believe that I am addressing very feiv Weed among your Lord ships who do not concur With the in that expression of regret, and who are notenoW, whatever they might have thought at first, of - opinion that it would have bee t ' much better to have taken this discussion with close d doors. —( Hear, hear, from the cross benches.) Earl GREY said (as nearly as we could catch his Lord ship's observations)—l am sure, my Lords, it will be in the recollection of your Lordships that I only differed from, the Noble Lord as to the propriety of excluding strangers. The ground of my opposing the exclusion of strangers this, na:nely, that I do not think that it is to the ad vantage of the privileges of your Lordships, and mutt' , less to the dignity and the character of your Lordships, to take such a discussion as this with closed doors. — (Cheers.) --I did not, however, my Lord., throw any ito potation, .even the most distant, upon Noble Lords, whc took a contrary view of the manner in which, upon such occasions, the privileges, the dignity, and the character td your Lordships would be best consulted.—(Hear.) The Earl of flannixoTosr and Lord Ter:TEI:I3EN cos. together, but there was a general call for Lord TENTERDEN, who said (as we understood his Lordship, who spoke in a tone most distressingly indis tinct)—My Lords, after what has fallen from the Noble and Learned Lord on the noolsick, I think myself bound to inform your Lordships, that it is the constant practice of all courts of law, in inflicting a fine, to add to that in fliction this farther term—namely, that tke party fined shall be imprisoned until that fine be paid. I speak, toy Lords of the superi r courts in Westminster-hall; and I em sure that instances of this practice will be found in all of those courts. Now, my Lords, I cannot bring myself to think, that while the courts of Westminster-hall possess this privilege, it can properly be denied to your Lordships. —(Hear, hear, front the cress-benches.) In what cases, under what circumstances, and to what extent, your Lord ships should exercise that privilege, is quite another ques tion, and one upon which I do not propose to say one word ; but I must declare that I think the right of y our Lordships to the exercise of that privilege is dear, distinct, and indisputable. And why, my Lords, was this power conferred ? It was conferred, my Lords, not for the pro tection of those who :possess it,—not for the sake of the House of Lords,—not for the sake of the House of Com mons,—not fur the sake of the courts of law, all of whom are in equal possession of the power,—but for the sake of the nation at large, for whose welfare and well-govern ment it was absolutely necessary that all men should be taught to pay due reverence to the great legislative council of the kingdom, and to those tribunals of justice in which the laws of the land are administered. These, my Lords, .are the reasons why the' two Houses of Parliament, and why courts of law, possess this power ; these are the rea sons why each of them ought to possess it : and I ant quite sure that if they, and especially the two Houses of Parlia ment, did not possess this power of vindicating themselves, it would be impossible that their respective duties could be performed with dignity to themselves, or with advan tage to the country. The LORD CHANCELLOR said—My Lords, I am once more compelled to embark in this unfortunate discus sion. I say compelled, because, after what has fallen from my Noble Friend the Lord Chief Justice upon the subject of Parliamentary law, I feel xnyself under the necessity, the absolute necessity, for the sake of the dignity and the character of Parliament—for the sake of the 'country and and of the subjects of the King, as well as out of kind ness to my Noble Friend—first of all to set my Noble Friend right upon a point of so much importance, and, next, to give my Noble Friend an opportunity of recon siderieg what he has said, and then of explaining himself to your Lordship. I have said, my Lords—and I repeat it now once mere—that I dovery much doubt the existence of this power wi:h which your Lordships are said to be in vested, and to which some of your Lordships appear to cling with so much and such fond tenacity ; and my Lords, if I do entertain this doubt, I have at least the consolation of knowing that I am countenanced in my scepticism by some of the very highest constitutional autho rities, and by some of the greatest lawyers, as well con stitutional as general lawyers, that ever the bar produced, or that ever adorned the Senate, or that ever added weight arid dignity to the bench. But, my Lords, in spite of the support which I receive from such great and learned men, I believe that I am quite wrong, and I believe so, my Lords, because you tell me so. True it is, my Lords, that you are the judges in your own cause, and if I do not raise any argument upon that as between your Lord ships and myself, with regard to the existence of this power, yet, let me tell your Lordships, that the fact of your being judges in your own cause ought to make you very slow to exercise this power : for though you will always be the judges in your own cause in matters of this description, and if you possess this power, you, let me tell you, that you will not always be what judges ought to be,—calm, temperate, dispassionate, dis interested, and just' judges; and yet, without these essen tiel qualifications of judges, destitute of the only qualify cations which can insure a fair administration of justice, and being, moreover, at once a party to and the judges of the cause, your course of proceeding will be, to drag a man to your b:r against whom there has been no indict ment, to tell him what charges are made against him,— to whom you allow no counsel to advise with him, either with regard to the matter of feet or matter of law,—whose defence, be it what it may, will he deemed good or bad an couLne to your opinions, and not according to any other • criterion ; and upon this man, so situated, you will, with out deliberation, and under a sense of wounded dignity, proceed to pass what sentence you may please to pass, for the sentence will be regulated by your pleasure and by nothing else ; or if by any thing else, by some precedent laid down by men who before your times have appeared in the same character of party, accuser, and judge,— %dime object may have been punishment, not justice,— who silly have been influenced not by respect for your pri vileges, but by vindictiveness arising from some personal offence, and may perhaps-have taken as little time as your selves to allow their resentment to subside.—(A burst of cheers.)—And this, my Lardv, this is the course by which you propose to vindicate ; your privileges, and to preserve :the dignity and the tlta is ooter r of your Lordships' House unsullied !—(Much cheering. ) —l know very well, my Lords, that this is no reason against the possession of this power—l mean no reign for saying that you have it not ; but I think it may eierhaps be a very good reason why you ought Bever eesintee had it ; and surely, my Lords, it is a reason us it ought to be convincing.—surely, my Lords,.: it is the very best possible reason Why you should ahetain from the exercise of that power : surely, my Lcieds, it is the very hest possible reason why you should have taken that advice which I took the liberty to tender to you,—to tend. r to you for the sake of your privi• leges, and not for the sake of violating your privileges,— namely, that you should abstain from the exercise of such a power, except in cases of imminent and absolute neces sity.—(Hear, hear.) Now my Noble Friend the Lord Chief Justice may be very right—and I know your Lord ships think he is—in saying that you have this power; • but he cannot he right in the reasons which he has given for the yoseeesion of that power. Let him be quite sight in saying that you have the power, 'hut he must be quite wrong rn the reasons which he has assigned for saying that you lefve it. What were those reasons? I heard them, my Lards. with wonder and amazement. He tells you, that because the Courts of Law in Westminster-hall have the power to fine and imprison, so also must the Houses of Loris and Coin:none have that power. Good God ! my .e L v o e i r el t s u , i7 i t t i o ll e t v h e i s r d h e u a y t:d w t i i i l e l nthyisoumohanvieentb—eenwhioeln were d y t ' l i t u e Lord Chief Justice of England—that the House of Com mons has the right to inflict tines and imprisonment upon his Majesty's en'rjects in vindieetion of their privileges? --(Much cheering. )—No one who knows any thing about the law and the constitution of the country can hesitate for a moment in saying that the Lord Chief Justice is grievously in et ror here ; and until I am told by my Noble Friend, in terms the twist clear and the most explicit, I will e ntg believe that he is prepared to itetend and Justifyin law what he hai . Said fur be bas:thereby ferred upon the House of Commons a power, which none of his least-learned, none:of his worst, none of his molt corrupt, none of his least calm, his least temperate, or his least respectable predecessors, ever dreamt of arm ing the Commons with.—(Cheers.)—B u t I may be doing the Lord Chief Justice wrong; he may think, in con formity with the reasons he has given, that the House of Commons has this power though it does not exercise it, for upon that, at least,—the non-exercise of h e —there can be no doubt. And if so, perhaps my Noble Friend thinks that the Commons have the power of examining upon oath as well as your Lordships, and that your Lordships and the Commons participat e equa ll y an d rec i proca ll y i n all the privileges and powers incident to each. It is quite clear, however, th.it my Nobl e F r i en d supposes t h at t h e Speaker of the House of Commove may summon a min to the bar of the House, fine him lOW., and imprison him till the fine he paid.—(Hear, hear.)—Yes, this must have been the opinion of my Noble Friend, which I hereby give gains an opportunity of retracting, as I have no doubt he will ; for, upon reflection, my Noble Friend must see that that opinion is utterly untenable, although his whole ar gument was intended to support and demonstrate it,-- as that argument being, that inse of Lo ‘V e sit mr and tds er- Commons have o,r the Cu dragged into this must si A ., h l hv oe yi: L r u lt bs o os ee r , u c d r s ta , n ,ci l o love t been say this; fur, as a member f ling situation whi c h I h ive t h e honour to h old, I could ndoit'tie; consistently with m y d uty as a mem b er o f this House, or consistently with the character of the office which I fill, hear the Lord Chief Justice of England—no slight authority on a point of law—make this exposition of the Parliamentary law without at once contradicting it.— (Cheers.) If may Noble Friend, the Lord Chief Justice, adheres to this opinion, let him make a motion upon the subject, and bring his store of legal reseaith to bear upon it, and support it if he can. Let him do this, and if; if, doing this, he should succeed in persuading your Lord .Lips that the House of COWC2OIISI 11.19 this power am' privilege.,—and I should not be at all surprised if be did persuade your Lordships of it—(Hear, and a laugh)— your Lordships will have the satisfaction of homing tha! you have, by the sanction of your Lordships high autho rity, invested the House of Commons with a power whirl the stoutest friend of Parliamentary privileges never be fore ventured to arrogate to the Commons Houqe of Parlia ment. (The Noble and Learned Lord sat down amidst ;ouch cheering.) Lord TENTF.RDEN said_ My Lords, I never was a Member of the House of Commons, and therefore I must be far inf.-rior in the means of informatit:n on this subject to my Nair and Learned Friend on the Woolsack, who was for so long a time one of the most distinguished orna ments of that House. I spoke from recollection—it may he from imperfect recollection ; but I WAS strongly im pressed with the notion that there wt re instances in which the House of Commons had exercised this power. I was mistaken, I dire say ; but with reg,ard to this House, 1 think there can be no doubt that it has the power. The LORD CHANCELLOR—I am very glad that I have given my Noble and Learned Friend an opportunity of making this explanation, because these things, though very familiar to Members of the House of Commons, may not he so well known here, where still there can be no in convenience in having them understood. The fact is, that the House of Commons has the power of commitment, but not for any certain time ; they hare the power to com mit as a means of removing an obstruction ; nut the con finement of the person so committed can last no longer than the end of the session. The House of Lords, on the other hand, being a court of justice—a court of record,— nay, the highest court of Justice, is said to have the power of committing for a time certain, and of fining ; but that power has been disputed by many sound lawyers, and especially by Sir Arthur Pigot, who was one of those who denied that the House of Lords had the power of committing for a time certain. I know very well that the Court of King's Bench has decided otherwise. Lord KING sAd—As it appears t.) be the opinion of your Lordships that this matter should be postponed till to-morrow, .I will not press that Mr. Lawson should be called to the bar to-day. I should have thought it would Lye been much letter, and much more convenient, to have disposed of the matter at once ; but still I will not urge my own opinion in opposition to that of your Lord ships. The Earl of HADDING TON said—l thought at first, and I still think, that the Noble Earl who intro duced this subject, and your Lordships who took it up, have acted quite properly. Still, however, I concur with the Noble Lord who has just sat down, in the opinion that it would be much better to finish the matter at once, than to post pone it till another day. (" No, no," from Lord Wyn ford. ) I think that the object has now been attained.— However, if this proposition of mine is to create any con siderable difference among your Lordships, I will nut say another word about it. If the question were, whether Mr. Lawson should receive some considerable punish ment, or whether he should only b.. rept imanded, I agree that we ought to take time for consideration ; but as I un derstand it to be settled that your Lordships do not propose to go farther than a reprimand, and that the only question is, whether that reprimand shall take place to-morrow or to-day, I must say that I think it would be better if it were to take place to-day. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said a few words, which we did not understand, about congratulating the House, and about privilege. The LORI) CHANCELLOR then put the Ttestion, " That the matter contained in this petition be taken into further consideration to-morrow," which was agreed CIVIL LIST. On the motion of the Earl of SHAFTESBURY, this Bil was read a third time and passed. REFORNI. Earl GROSVENOR presented petitions in favour of Parliamentary Reforro, from the county of Chester, and from several other places—Adjourned till to-morrow. HOUSE OF COMMONS, ApRIL 20. The SPEA K En. took the Chair precisely at Three o'clock. Several private Bills were forwarded a stage. Sir H. PARNELL took the oaths and his seat for Queen's County. PARLIAMENTARY REFORM. Mr. HODGSON presented a petition from certain in habitants of South Shields, praying that they might be allowed to retain their privilege of voting for members for the town of Newcastle-upon-Tyne. Mr. BELL said, he had to present a petition, which he considered of very great importance, from the county of Northumberland, against the proposed Reform Ili I. It was signed by two Right Rev. Prelates, the Bishops of Exe ter and Durham, by ten Peers, by sixty gentlemen in the commiss'on of the peace, and by a very large number— he would say about 2,700—0 f the freeholders of the county of Northumberland. This petition, so numerously and respectably signed, formed a convincing proof, in his opinion, that the unanimity throughout the c.untry, in favour of this Measure, was not so very general as many people believed to b.: the case.---( Hear, hear.) The peti tioners prayed that this Bill should not pass into a law, b, cause they were of opinion that if it did pass, it would be subversive of the best interests rf the country. In their prayer, and in the propriety of their opinion, he perfectly concurred.--(Bear, hear ; ) He could not avoid expressing his disgust at the inthnidatiou which had been held out for the purpose of compelling individuals to support this mea sure.—(Hear, hear.) lie had not given way, and he should not give way, to any such intimidation ; and if it were necessary, he would continue to offer his utmost op position to every part of the measure.—(Hear.) Ile had been taunted, as not being a reformer. In answer to that, he would say that he was a moderate reformer, but he could not support such a Reform as was now contemplated. Mr. BEAUMONT did not mean to deny that the pe tition which had been presented by his Hon. Colleague was most respectably signed ; but it would be wrong to give to it all the weight and importance which would be attached to a petition agreed to at a county meeting regu larly convened. He considered the present petition as speaking the sentiments of the Duke of Northumberland, and not of those of the county at large. When his Hon. Colleague spoke of intimidation, he could not avoid allud ing to the circular which had been sent round to the tenants of the Noble Duke, and which had appeared iu the public papers. He did not mean to assert that that cir cular had emanated from his Grace; but if it did not, his Grace's Commissioners had used his name in a way which he should suppose his Grace could not approve of. The circular ran thus Duke's Commissioners send to Mr. -, for his own and the signatures of the tenants of his bailiwick, counter parts of addresses to the King and the two Houses of Parli, ment, in respect to the present llefbrm Bill, the originals of which his Grace has signed, and in the promotion of which his Lordship desires activity may be used, as a return is expected in a few days ; trusting that all persons connected with him will join in the prayer of the petitions, which their neighbours should have an opportunity of signing if they think fit. The Duke requires the names of tenants who do not sign, and hopes that they will not embark rashly in politics, if they wish to place confidence in his opinions, which can only be truly learnt through his Commissioners._ " (:,Omrnissioncrs'-office, Alnwick Castle, April 5." Now let the ouse look to the concluding paragraph : " The Duke moires the name of tenants who do not sign," and make their own comment on it. Could any nun, either in or out of doors, suppose that this list was called for merely to be left on his Grace's breakfast table, without any intention of making further use of it ? (Hear, hear.)—Having seen this document in the Times, he had written to a friend iu the country on the subject, and he answered in these terms :—" I have not seen the Times; but the conduct of the agents and sub-agents is such as the Times could scarcely misrepresent. The tenants and under-tenants have been called on to sign ;hut it is a complete failure. They have got 2,700 signatures of men, women, and children ; for wives and daughters signed for husbands and fathers." He greatly lamented that the Noble Duke should have de ceiaded from the high station which he held to countenance such proceedings. He repeated that the petition spoke not the sentiments of the county, but those of the'Duke of Nore,umberland. . - Sir 11. HARDINGE said, when he saw that this pe tition was signed by a great majority of the Nobility—no less than 60Pders having affixed their signatures to it, and 2,700 freeholders, he could not but consider it as a, county petition of the most respectable character.— (Hear.) With respect to the document to which the lion. Member bad called the attention of the House, he could state, most distinctly and positively, that the Duke of Northutnberlatid never saw that document until it ap peared in the Times newspaper.—(Hear, hear.) Tht Commissioners considered that circular as a privitte and confidential communieation; but a copy of it had bee!, procured improperly, and sent to a newspaper a t Al nw i c k. With re-pect to that part of the circular Which expressed a hope " that parties would nut embark rashly in politics, if they wished to place confidence in his (the Duke's) iisiiopi nions, sdn ' e v r i a d , ' ' it c h co d u. r id ose oniy be truly lear n t t h rough h i s Com nfrom the following circumstance:— It was found that at the very castle of Alnwick, an indi vidual who had been an agent to a Noble Lord (Howick), when he stood fddr the county, actually applied for, an , obtaintal, the signatures of a great number of indivi duals, some of them belonging (he might say) to th Duke's household, to a petition for Reform,--that pers , d declaring, that it was a petition which would receive the Duke's approbation, and that by signing it they would. s h ow their loyalty to the King, and regard kr_the Coati; - ution.—(He tr., hear.) Therefore it was that the Com. nissioners h.d conceived it to be their duty to state, that the Noble Duke's opinions could be mil) t i learnt through his Commissioners."—(Hear, hear.) They 'lid been forced to take this step in consequence of the un air means which had hi co teaorted to by - the.other side, to procuring- signatures to the Reform petitioo_t u k "ear, 'ear.) He could proudly refer to the Noble' Duke's .trictly hononrable and impartial conduct in Ireland ; he -ould refer to the munificent disintere,tedness with which he ,elinquished ten thousand pounds a year of his salary ; .he could refer to the whole course and tenour of his lire, as iffording sufficient evidence to repel the idea that he had ever improperly or unjustly interfered with the opinions if his tenantry.—(Hear.) Mr. BEAUMONT did not wish personally to attack the Dake. Thu onus 1.,y on his Commissioners. After otne ob,=ervations from severAMemb:rs the petition was - nought up and orderer; to b , , print,(l. Mr. BELL then presented several petitions against togro slavery. Mr. HODGSON pre:etited a petition froM South Shields, praying that they might not be disfranchised for voting for Members fta. Ne.ccastle. Mr. MACKINNON presented a petition fronalps rich, praying that that town might not be disfranchised. Mr. FOLEY presented a petition from Stowbridge in favour of Retort,. • Colonel LYGON was instructed by his constituents to; say that this petition did not express the general opinion of the town, and he had a declaration from a number of persons who attended the meeting, thseenting from the resolutions that were passed. Dais declaration was, signed by ten Magistrates, who stated they were not adverse to Reform, but they considered that if the. Bill in its present shape passed into a law it would en danger the glorious Constitution. He professed in this opinion he perfectly agreed. • • Mr. C. FERGUSSON presented a petition from Kirk cudbright against the plan of Reform. . _ After some obaervaiions from Sir G. MURRAY and Sir C. FOREES, the petition was ordered to he printed. Mr. C. FERGUSSON then presented several petitions from various places in favour of Reform. , Sir J. JOHNSON presented a petition from Bishop's- Castle against Reform. Mr. BEAUMONT presented several petitions in favour of Reform. Mr. JOHN WOOD presented a petition frornt'reston against the Beer Bill. Mr. JOHN WOOD presented a petition from Pres ton, signed by 2,400 inhabitants; and also one from the Minchester Political Union, signed by 6,000 individuals in and near Manchester, in favour of the present plan of Reform, and expressive of their indignation at what his Pion. Odleague (Mr. Hunt), had said respecting their disapprobation of the inealiure. Several Hois. AIE3IIIEItS presented petitions from various parts, for and against the measure. SUPPLY AND ORDNANCE ESTIMATES. The House resolved itself, on the motion of Air. TENNY.• SON, into a Committee of Supply and Ordnance Estimates. Mr. HUME, who entered the House after the Com mittee had been formed, observed that for the first time in his life he should not oppose the votes of certain sums being now passed to his Majesty for the purposes sated in those votes, in the hope th it it would enable his Majesty's Mi nisters very speedily to bring the affairs of that House into a state in which his Majesty might be disposed at once to dissAve the Parli.tment, in order that Hon. Members might be sent back to their constituents, for neck and neck—(Lotid laughter)—as the two pieties in that House were after two trials, it would be perfect folly to attempt to discuss anything of any importance. It could not be very _satisfactory to suppose that that House wasexactly divided in opinion, and that with one half the whole ma.s of the people should be. In such a state of things it was impossible any good could be done. Colonel TRENCH observed, that the last Admini stration hail effected a reduction of 47,0001. per annum in this department, whilst the present Administration had re trenched only to the extent of 4,0001. or 5,0001. Mr. TENNYSON said that he hoped to be ahle to cf . - feet a much greater reduction next year. The remaining items were agreed to, and the Huse resumed. The report was ordered to be received to-narrow, the Chairman obtained leave to sit again on Friday. On the motion of Mr. C. W. WYNN, the Lord Steward's Oaths Bill went through a Counnitte. , , the Bill was ordered to 1 e engrossed, and read a thud time on Friday. The House then went into a Cutranittee on ie Admi nistration of Justice in Ireland Bill, on the moric of Mr. CutaarTow. Mr. RUTH EN animadverted on the abuses of She riffs in empanel:ing Juries, and showed, by a rtiteience to • tie reports already laid on the table of the WU., that parties were continually obliged to purchase an exemption from serving as Jurors, referring more particularly to the evidence of Mr. John Dadd, a Dublin auctioneer, which proved that Sheriffs on some occasions received a compli-: went of fifty and sixty pounds for certain indulgences 't t y them extended to the donors in return. He would take this opportunity of stating, that he had la: 1 received a communication from a gentleman in 'retain , whose feel ings it appeared were wounded by the observations which he had made upon this su! , ject already, and he much re gretted that any thing he had uttered should have been prodactive of annoyance to any one ; but he could by no means consent to retract a word of what had failen horn him during the debate alluded to, for he had made no strictures whatever which were not fully justified by the information on which he acted, nor had he been, in any degree, influenced by personal considerations. Mr. CRAMPTON disclaimed being au apologist for any one abuse, whether public or private, whether in the sheriff's-office in Ireland, in the administration of the lows, or in the rotten borough., of which he tiutsed so • soon to witness the disfranchisement. • Sir C. WETHERELL, with all due deference for the learning and station of the lion. Gentleman who filled the office of Solicitor-General for Ireland, deprecated in the strongest terms his very ill-timed and unwarrantable allu sion to what he was pleased to call rotten boroughs.---• (Laughter.) The alusion on this occasion was equally uncoil, d for and out of place, and he must say, did but little credit to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's pru dence and good sense. Mr. LEADER observed, that the most odious abuses were daily taking place in the sheriff's office in Ireland, and he hoped, ere long, to witness their effectual and per- . manent abolition. Mr. JEPHSON directed attention to the inconvenient operation of the Regist►y Act, and requested to kno►o whether it was likely that any legislative measure would be applied to remedy the evil. Mr. RICE raid, that the reason why the abuses in the register's office htd not hitherto been rectified, Vat, the. variance of two minutes one with the other, which mad.' it difficult to decide upon which it would be pieferable proceed. A report on the subject had, howe‘4.r, lately , been luid upon the table, which so far disemlrarrassed the Government on point as to enable him to state that an effective remedy would be brought forward with little further loss of time. The Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be cow mitted on Friday next. On the motion of Mr. LITTLETON the Mo9ey Payment Acts' Repeal Bill was read a third time and passed. Mr. CHAYTOR presented a petition from certain ! electors in Durham, in favour of the Reform Bill. The petitioners were at present in possession of a monopoly of the franchises, but most honourably were willing to surrender that monopoly in favour of t.l . !eir unrepresetit fellow-citizens. Mr. HUNT was sure that neither the petitioners no r the Noble and Hon. proprietors of boroughs, who were thus trun►petinß what they cou:d not help, Would have surrendered to the people their monopoly of representation but from fear of compulsion. Mr. HUME denied the assertion of the Hon. Member tor Preston, whose other mis-statements ►espeeting the feelings of the mass of the population with reference to the Reform Bill, he was enabled to state were wholly founded. Petitions were in pro.:ress from the•dtstrict9 which the Hon. Member had represented as dissatisfied with the Bill, contradicting in the must explicit terms the Hon. Alember's statement. Mr. HUNT would engage for ss. to obtain a d ou ble number of signatures to that attached to any such petition as the Hon. Member alluded. He never denied that the people were anxious for the success of the Reform mea sure; but he maintained, and would maintain, that the peopl, were deluded by it. He wished to know what good this Bill would do for the people? Would they get bread cheaper by it ? Would they get a reduction of taxes? (" Hear, hear," from Mr. Sibtliorre.) Would they g t reduction of.thst accursed pension list? No ; had defended it through thick and thin, and had told the (-louse that there was no prospect of amelioration for people in the reduction of taxes. Mr. HUME denied that he bad made any attack 41 he Hon. Member for I'reatou ; all that he had said !)een in vindication of other persons. Mr. SIBTHORPE agreed with the Hcn. Member Ir a Preston th a t thi s Bill wa s a delusion and a fr au d on t " t peopl e of E ng l an d, an d he was convinced that th e more, was txpooed, the snore would the cou n t ry b e (14100' w %X