The Sun. — London, England, 1833-06-26 00:00:00

:'ARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, JUNE 25. The Gravesend Pier Bill was read a third time, and passed. - The Duke of WELLINGTON presented a ue - 'tition from the Hon. Alexander Murray, the object of which vre could not hear. Lord SUFFIELD presented a petition from the parish of Binbrooks, praying their Lordships to pass the Bill befor3 the other House for the abolition of slavery. Th,, petitioners stated that the Bill was better than nzthing.— (A laugh.) A NOBLE LORD—There is no Bill before the House of Commons. Lord SUFFIELD said that that certainly Wag the fact, and be would withdraw the petition. The Bishop of LINCOLN presented a petition fmm Great Grimsby, for the better observance of the Sabblth. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE wished to discharge the order for the House being summoned on Friday, to con. eider the resolutions of the renewal of the East India Charter. If the Noble Lord opposite (Ellenborough) thought it would be convenient, he would move that the present order be discharged, and their Lordships be summoned for Friday sennight. Lord ELLENBOROUGH said it would be quite eon- I renient. WEST INDIA QUESTION, The Earl of RIPON rose and said, 'ne found himself 'before their Lordships, for the purpose of bringine, before their House a question which every one acknowledged Was of the very greatest importance. Ile obeyed abet duty with feelings of the very greatest anxiety— greater than any with which he had done any duty during a period of 30 years' Parliamentary experience. He could amt but feel that, in dealing' with a subject of such im mense importance, he stood very much in need of their Lordships' indulgence; and, although be might fed that if he was to ask for that indulgence an - personal grounds, he might be accused of va nity, yet, at all events, he was sure the House would grant that indulgence to the subject. The House of Commons, after much discussion, carried on for some years, and in every variety and shape, had come to certain resolutions with respect to slavery in the colonies, with which they desired their Lordships' concurrence. It was a subject which involved mighty changes, affecting not merely individuals—it iavolved also considerations affecting those who were tare masters, the other class to which he had alluded. It also deeply involved the whole commercial and political interests —interests of the greatest anagnitmle, and affecting, perhaps, every into in rest in the cossntry.—(Hear.) It involved, in the shape whi..ah they had now tea consider it, a proposition to ; impase upon the people of this country considerable hoodoos for the purpose of bringing the question to an isme.—(Hear, bear.) On asking their Lordships to accede to those resolutions, he would begin by explaining the motives upon which be did not call upon them to do so. He did not, in the first place, ask them because the measure had now any held upon his mind of a wild, or euthusiastic, or fanatical kind.—(Hear.) It was im possible for any man to have considered the ques tion without having hie feelings deeply engaged in the result of the question ; but from his situation, having for some years been called upon to act as a Mini ver in taking those various steps recommended to Parlia ment with respect to the measure, he had earnestly, and he believed he might say successfully, divested himself oral! those feelings which the nature of the question was likely 'to engender, and could now come to the discussion of the measure with all that calmness which the subject demanded. He had been induced to take the part which he had done on this question, not from any wish or desire to conci bate any party in this country. He was well aware that where was a large body of persons in this country who had applied their minds and their utmost energies for years past to produce upon the public mind a deep im pression of the necessity and policy of abolishing slavery, hut he had never wished to pursue that course, he had never been influenced, nor had his Majesty's Go vernment been influenced, by any wish for the mere pur pose of conciliating any party, to bring into play the great changes contemplated in the resolutions.—(Here the Noble Earl appeared much exhausted, and was for a minute or two unable to proceed.) Their Lordships indulged him more than he deserved. He would endeavour to explain the real 'grounds on which he asked the House to accede to the resolutions. They would by it be doing a great act of justice as well as humanity and sound policy..—(Hear, heir.) Though he admitted that the feelings of humanity ought to go a great way, they ought not to go so far as to induce the House rashly to adopt these resolutions, unless consideration. o f pu bli c pol i cy pressed the necessity of so doing upon them.—(Here the Noble Lord was so much exhausted as to be obliged to sit down, and was apparently on the point of fainting, when) The Earl of WINCHILSEA rose. He was sure that the House would agree with him that in consequence of the indisposition of the Noble Earl, the debate should be adjourned._( Hear.) The Earl of RIPON (who had in the mean time re covered himself) thanked his Noble Friend, but it was far from him to wish to postpone the discussion on a question of so much importance.._( Hear.) The grounds upon which he asked their Lordships to accede to the resolu tions were not founded upon vague, indefinite, or speculative views of abstract interest, but upon a state of things which did not admit of being in the condition they now were— (Hear, hear)—and he wished to satisfy their Lordships that a course of events, which no human power could have controlled or changed, had brought this question to such a point, that if the House did not speedily settle it, every thing in the colonies would shortly be in a state of the most irretrievable confusion.—(Hear, hear, hear.) It was, therefore, not for the mere purpose of indulging in any sentimental humanity that he begged of the House to adopt the resolutions, but it was that, by adopting them, they would take what he be lieved was the only course that would save the colonies from a danger which he could not con. template without much dread—that that great mart of property, and all the great interests connected with it, would be involved in one ; common ruin.—( Hear, hear.) But the necessity for the present proceeding arose out of the necessity of the case, and the question now was whether slavery was or was not to be permanent? He was confident that it was now too late to contend that it was. He had never heard or read the opinion of any one person, that as a principle, slavery was to be permanently maintained. It bad therefore become a ques tion of time, and their Lordships had to consider whether the time was not now come when they must deal with it. It was inherent in the nature of the question itself, that where slavery existed, particularly in a civilized country, but above all in a free country, the time would arrive when their Lordships must consider whether it should exist at all. It was true that slavery was the offspring of the policy of this country towards its colonies, but though for a time circumstances might prevent public atten tion being drawn to the subject, and to the evils which *arose from it, yet if the mind of the public he once directed to it, and to the progress made towards its extinction, the public would proceed first, perhaps, by slow degrees, but afterwards with an accelerated velocity, until they would have no choice left but to abandon it altogether. The first blow that was struck at slavery in the West Indies was when the public .attention was first directed to it ; and, although the persons who then brought it forward disclaimed all idea of connecting the two subjects. namely, the slave trade and slavery—there were other circumstances which proved that every argument in favour of the extinction of the slave trade applied equally to the extinction of slavery. That was the opinion of no less a man than Burke, who in 1780 directed the attention of Parliament to the subject. If the House looked at all the examinations before the Privy Council, and at all the arguments in Parliament, they would perceive_ that those arguments which were used in favour of the extinction of the slave trade, applied with equal force to the present question —( Hear, hear.) At that period public attention was confined to the one question—their feelings of horror absorbing all attention to the question of the slave trade. The events of the war tended to slacken the operations of Parliament, and to divert public attention from the subject. In 1806 a very wise resolution was adopted by Parliament, on which he gave his first vote. The Noble Lord here made another long pause, en which The Duke of 13UCKINGHAN1 moved that the ques tion be adjourned during pleasure.—(Cries of .‘ No, no.") The Earl of RIPON, apparently with some diffi culty, proceeded. He thought it right, however, to advert to the earlier stages of the discussion on this question, as they formed the-basis of all that stoise quently occurred, and upon which the resolutions which their Lordships had now to consider, hung.—(Hear.) After the peace of 1814, a new part of the question arose, and although it was not particularly connected H_t]with. the propositi on h e was a b out to su b m i t to th e o, , it formed an important feature in the concatenation of the circumstances which had brought the House to time i oint at which it now stood. The Noble Lord who had then filled the office of „Foreign Secretary, and to which be (Lord Ripon) shortly after succeeded, in his negotiations with the Courts ofaFranee, Spain, 'and Portugal, had urged the abolition — of the slave' trade upon princip'es which, if followed up to their legitimate condos on, would necessarily lead to the abolition of slavery alt. ages there This being the case, he came necessarily to the 1 re- tent time. Their Lordekips were all aware 'hoier Much the interest of the subject had latterly increased. Was it very extraordinary th at the people hould eel a repugee to the m a i ntenance of a state of n things f which they nan deemed equally obnoxious to religion and to humanity? It might he said that great interests were connected with the guts tirs, and that g rea t r i s k s m i ght be the consequences of any change. Thi s W as a reason to proceed with caution, n h a u t t irr, it , coteld be no reason to oppose the feelings of a whole which looked at the question only in its moral and religious character. The excited feelings of justice and humanity on one side, and the feelings of interest on the other, tended to complitate the question, and to render it one which sooner or later would come to such a crisie that nothing but the decision of the Parliament and of the Government could terminate it. This, in 182:3, had led to the first great step, or to the first distinct step at least, which had been taken on the part of Government, and which had lais! the foundation of a change of system. In 1823 certain resolutions were come to by the Home of Common', and although they weir cautiously and judi ciously worded, they did, ill the most plain and distinct terms, receTnise es the object at which Parliament sought to ain't the ultimate extinction of slavery, it was not for Parliament to say now that the resolutions were a mere tat of words, that they were meant to hold out expecta tions of ultimate results which Parliament were now deter. mined, when the crisis had come, to defeat. After the re solutions had been carried, a circumstance bad occurred which had had a great influence on the question. He al luded to what had taken place in the colony of Demerara. In 1823 an insurrection had taken place in that colony, and a missionary of the name of Smith had been taken up, and was brought to trial on the charge of having fomented that insurrection. He was sentenced to death, but the execution of that sentence was postponed upon a reference to the Government at home. The decision of the Go vernment at home was that the sentence ought not to be carried into effect, but in the mean time the unfortunate man had died in his prison. This did not appear to him to have any impression on the ultimate result of the pies time, but it formed a sort of crisis, for it produced an ex citement throughout the country, and created the strongest religious feelings in connection with the institution of slavery. The House of Lords bad not taken any step on the resolutions of 1823, but in 18213 they were commu nicated by the House of Commons to their Lordships, and their Lordships had unanimously acquiesced in them. Their Lordships had agreed with the House of Commons ; to establish a clear and indubitable principle that the time I must cone when negro slavery in the British colonies would cease.--(Hear, hear.) That question of time was one of great difficulty. He could appreciate the argument that that time had not yet come. He could imagine that some people might say that the slaves were still too barba rous, that they were not yet sufficiently impressed with the distinctions of a life of freedom, to be rendered capable of enjoying that freedom. To all such persons lie would at once reply that if the time were not yet come in which the slave could enjoy freedom the period had arrived in which he was unfit for slavery —(Hear.) This was the most dangerous time that could exist, and in the West Indies it was a time of peculiar danger. In the ancient world the freemen bore a very large proportion to the number of slaves, but throughout the British colonies all the physical strength and numbers were on the side of the people of colour. When the slave trade had existed there was less danger in this disproportion, because the greater mass of slaves were drawn from Africa. They were of tribes speaking different languages, having no common interests, and no notion of any other rela tions of life than those in which they were placed ; and, although the abstract nature of slavery might lead men to resist its pressure, these imported negroes had no means of combination, or of organizing resistance, in a manner which alone could make resistance formidable or danger ous. Very different was it with the half civilized slave, who was nut only sensitive to the moral as well as to the physical sufferings of shivery, but cello had his mind thoroughly open to all the degradation of slas-ery, and to th e loss of all those advantages and benefits which he felt himself fit to enjoy, and which he found were withheld from him, to be exclusively enjoyed by others. This was the natural result of the abolition of the slave trade. The cessation of the trade obliged the owners to treat their slaves differently, and to alter all the relations between masters and negroes. They taught them to feel that the lash was intolerable, and then taught them that the degradation of the lash was intolerable. What was the present situation of the slaves ? Look at the evidence of all who wished to abolish slavery at once, and of all who maintained that the negroes were not yet fit to be free. The missionary and the enthusiast would say that the slave was in such a state that he was perfectly fit to enjoy and comprehend all the relative duties of civilized life, and that they wanted nothing to induce them to work except the:stimula of industry, and the rewards of indus try. They would add, that they had endeavoured, to a great extent, to improve the condition of the slave, so as to alter his character and disposition, and that their en deavours bad been crowned with success. Whether things had been carried as far by the owners as the resolutions of Parliament contemplated, he would not undertake to say ; but take the evidence of either party, and it fully proved that the negro population was in such a state of intelligence that, if the negroes were not fit to be free, they were unfit to be slaves. Mens agitat molem et inagno se corpore miscet. The catastrophe could only be prevented by dealing in the decisive mariner of the resolutions now before Parliament. The real state of the question was, that it was impossible to go hack or to stand still—(Hear, hear)—and if the House could go back be did not think it ought. If Mi nisters were charged with the responsibility of preserving the colonies as useful appendages to the Crown, and as a beneficial property to the country, it could not be denied that they would have grossly abandoned their duty if, on account of the difficulties, they had agreed to leave the question to chance, without placing themselves in front, and calling upon Parliament to aid them. Such being the duty and the motives of his Majesty's Ministers, it became his duty to state to their Lordships the n iture of the propositions which his Majesty's G ivernment had re commended to the other House of Parliament, and which that House had adopted, and to which it now invited their Lordships' ecquieecence.—(llere the Noble Lord read the resolutions, which have already been laid before the public in the discussion upon them in the House of Commons.) He thought that no man could deny that if slavery could he abolished it ought to be abolished under such provisions as would at once combine the welfare of the negroes and the interests of the owners. It was quite clear that if any thing were done to establish the freedom of those who were above the age of childhood, the same principle would extend the same advantages to those who were under that age, or who were to be born afterwards. He had always felt that the resolution of ]823, which had declared that al children born after a certain day should be free, would produce a difference of feeling among the different classes of negroes, and endanger the tranquillity of the colonies. The present resolutions, therefore, established a probationary step for all the slaves, which, whilst it relieved the negro from the pressure of the worst parts of slavery, would net deprive the planter of the value of his services for such a time as it was necessary to make the requisite arrangements for the negro's perfect safety of freedom. It would not have been at all impossible to have devised a scheme by which all persons might at once have been made free at an early period. He totally disregarded the notion that the negro was indolent and indisposed to work by nature. He was idle only be cause he had nothing to excite the moral or physical disposition to labour. The negroes in the colonies were always ready to exert themselves during the time alto wed them for their enjoyment. In Trinidad and America there were many negroes that maintained them selves by extreme hard labour, and no persons toiled more steadily than the negroes when they had the ordinary mo tives of toil. He was aware that other persons were of a different opinion, and upon the whole he thought that it was prudent to establish some sort of a probationary state, by which the negroes might be under a sort of qualified compensation for a limited term. The proposition was that the negroes should be registered after a given date as apprenticed labourers, and that during a period of twelve years they should labour for their present owners during forty-five hours per week, or seven hours and a half each day. The remainder of the time was to be left for them selves, to be employed in a way most advantageous to their own welfare. The next proposition was of importance on account of the manner in which it might affect the minds of people in this country. He would maintain that it would be unjust to produce such changes without considering the losses of those for whom they were about to legislate. This, he believed, constituted the principal difficulty of the subject. Although Parliament had a clear abstract right to alter the relations of slaves and pro prietors, he did not think it entitled to alter those rela tions without making the owners a just consideration for the loss of their property. The people of this country had expressed over and over again their extreme anxiety for the extinction of slavery ; 'but he could not bring himself to believe that they would urge such changes, without being prepared to bear their share of the loss which would otherwise fall exclusively on the owners. It was reasonable for Ministers therefore to call upon P.a.- !lament to place at their disposal a large sum of money in order to effect the object. He knew that there were per eons who, arguing upon abstract principles, maintained that to compensate an owner for the loss of a slave, was as sinful as making a fellow-creature the nbjeci' - of barter and of property. if be were to admit the proposition in the abstract, it was still impossible for him to forget that the country had for a long period encou raged the possession of the property of slaves, and that therefore justice, reason, and common sense demanded that the country, in taking away that property, should bear a part of the loss. The Noble Earl proceeded to con tend that the grant would be made for as noble and honourable as it would be a charitable object. The sum proposed to be granted was 20,000,000/. That sum, when apportioned, he slid not mean to say would give to each of the colonies an adequate compensation for the risk they were called upon to run ; but he would contend that it would, taking into consideration the peculiar circum stances of the case, enable justice to be done, and give to each of the islands a fair proportion; and that was all that Parliament could at the present moment be expected to accomplish. The last resolution which he had to pro pose went to impose upon the revenue of the country the expense attendant upon the introduction of the contem plated plan. It was scarcely necessary for him to observe that a great change like the present could not be effected without the institution of many internal precaution s as to police and such like matters, the expense of which it would not be fair to impose on the colonies. It was therefore proposed to send from this country persons unconnected with the party or political feelings of the colonies, and unimbued with partiality in favour of the slave system, to supply the places of the ordinary magistracy of the islands in cases arising out and connected with the new regula tions. With regard to the necessity of affording to the slave the benefit of moral and religious instruction, he had now one or two observations to offer. At present the religion of the islands, founded on the principle of the established church of England, was tolerably strictly attended to ; and although the country was not t o b e put to th e ex p ense o f pry i ng teachers, with a view to the diffusion of knowledge, it was necessary that so me alterations should take place in the law upon the subject, and that consequently some little expense would be imposed for a short time. He believed he had now directed their Lordships' attention to the different resolutions to which he had to ask their assent. He brought them forward from no motives on his part but that great one of public good. If they passed, the fame would not rest with him, but with the Parliament ; and if their adoption, and the adoption of the measure which would be their consequence, should bring the great, the momentous, the inexpressibly important question of colonial slavery to a safe and salutary issue, confident he was that Parliament could hereafter boast of having achieved one of the greatest triumphs in the cause of justice, humanity, and sound policy which the history of any country at any period pre sented.—(Hear.) The Noble Earl concluded by moving the first resolution. The Duke of WELLINGTON commenced by ob serving that he fully shared with the Noble E irl in feelings of diffidence at rising to address their Lordships upon the present question. Without further preface, he would at once proceed, as nearly as he could in their proper order, to comment upon different points in the Noble Earl's speech. In the first place he nad to observe that he fully concurred with him in thinking that the first blow given to the system of slavery took place when the vote was passed by the British Legislature for the abolition of the slave trade ; but it did not, he contended, follow that because that first blow was given in 1808, since which period other measures on the subject were adopted, it was therefore necessary in 1833 to come to such resolutions as those which had been that night proposed for their Lord ships' adoption.—(llear, hear.) In the first place he begged to remind him (the Earl of Ripon) that on thedis cussion of the abolition of the slave trade it was more than I once denied by those who advocated that measure that there was any intention on their parts to follow it up by any proposition for the abolition of slavery.—(Hear.) On the contrary, it was frequently stated by those who argued most strenuously for the measure that it was not intended the abolition of the slave trade should be fol. lowed by a measure for the abolition of slavery. The in tent at that time was, by the abolition of the slave trade, to ameliorate the condition of the slave and improve the general frame of society throughout the colonies. But he (the Duke of Wellington) could not, from all he had ever heard or read, believe that it was, even by those who on general grounds contended in favour of the abolition of the slave trade, intended to follow up the est iblishment of such a system as might lead to those desirable results by the abolition of slavery itself.—(Hear.) Neither did the question which was that evening brought to discussio n arise from any thing that had taken place in Parliament in 1814, nor, he would contend, from what passed on the subject in the Session of 1822-3. There was, it was true, something of an opinion expressed at that time that the improvement in the condition of the alive, and of the state of society in the colonies, was likely, at some period or other, to lead to the abolition of slavery; but be again asserted that the probability of any such event never was stated as a reason for the abolition of the slave trade. He came then to speak of the proceedings on the subject during the Session 1822-3. Many of their Lordships would doubtless recollect that during that Session the in dividual (Mr. Canning) who was conducting the affairs of his Majesty's then Government in the House of Com mons, proposed certain resolutions which had for their object the ulterior abolition of slavery in the colonies. Now that, he contended, was the first occasion on which the question of the abolition of slavery was mentioned on authority in either House of Parliament.—(Year, hear.) And what, he asked, did Mr. Canning say upon that occa sion? What were the resolutions which he then pm posed? The Noble Earl (Ripon) it was evident had not read those resolution, or he would never have instanced them as making out a case for those which he had that night moved. The resolutions of Mr. Canning stated a distant period for the abolition of slavery. They stated that if the emancipation of the slaves was to take place at all, it should take place only at that period when they had been civilized, after measures had been taken to enable them to better their own conditions, and, in short, after they were found to be in a state of society in which, for their own interests, as well as for the interests of the slave proprietor himself, emancipation should become desirable. Such was the nature of Mr. Canning's resolm tions ; and all the measures which were founded upon those resolutions tended first to ameliorate the condition of the slave, next to educate him in some degree, and, in short, to make him fit for the situation in which it was the in tention, according to the resolutions of 1523, that he should be placed. In 1824, it would be recollected, measures were taken from time to time by the Govern. meat, and also by several of the Colonial Legislatures, to whose exertions the Noble Earl had very properly done justice on the present occasion, having all those objects in view. While alluding to the Colonial Legislatures, he felt called upon to do them the justice to say that, if they had not done all that was required of them by the Government of the day, they did do so much that there was no Colo nial Secretary from 1823 to 1830 who (lid not pass an approval on the conduct of those legislatures.—(Hear.) He then came to 1830, in which year an order in council was issued for the purpose of regulating the crown colo nies. In that order of council certain very important matters were ordered. First of all there was the appoint ment of protectors of slaves; secondly, Sunday markets were prohibited, and each Governor was directed to ap point a fixed market day; thirdly, Sunday labour was prohibited ; fourthly, the whip was not to be carried at work ; fifthly, females were not to be punished by whip ping; sixthly, a registry of punishments was required; seventbly, slaves were declared competent to marry; eighthly, slaves might acquire property; ninthly, in certain cases slaves were not to be separated from their families; tenthly, fees on manumission in certain cases were abolished ; eleventhly, slaves might effect their manumis sion in certain cases; and twelfthly, the evidence of slaves was made admissible on the forfeiture of slaves in cases of slavery. Such was the state to which affairs were brought in 1830 when his Majesty's present Administration took office. On that occasion is hat, he begged to ask, was the course pursued by the new Administration ? Instead of adopting the orders in council sent out by their predecessors, the effect of which would have been, by gradual degrees, that change in the condition of the slave which would eventually have made him worthy of emancipation, they all at once applied themselves to the subject for no other reason that he could see than to rush forward precipitately that which the orders in council would, by slow and sure degrees, effect. The business of the Government on their taking office in 1830 should have been, instead of sending out another order in council, to enforce by all the means in their power the execution of the first order in council in all the crown colonies, and, having effected their purpose in that regard, to have urged on the Legislative Colonies the adoption of the same mea sure. But what did they do? Instead of adopting the course chalked out for them in February, 1830, they first of all issued an order in council of their own concocting, which it was absolutely impossible could be carried into operation by any of the colonies, whether Crown or Le gislative, and not only did they send it out to the clown colonies, but they ordered in the most peremptory manner that it should be enacted as a law in the precise state in which it was sent out by the Legislatures of the Legisla tive Colonies. The consequence of all this was that the order in C ounc il was f oun d to be impracticable, a n d was ultimately withdrawn not only from the Legislative but even from the Crown Colonies. On the question of emancipation there were some important points on which the Noble Earl had said very little, which little lie felt bound to say was inconaiateut not only with some of his (the Earl of Ripon's) sentiments as they had been pub lished, but with the general acts of the Government to which he belonged, and even to some of their acts as they appeared detailed in the very resolutions before the House. The Noble Earl had told their Lordships to show that the slave, when emancipated, would ❑ot work for hire. He (the Duke of Wellington), was more inclined to imagine, taking into consideration the sway of human nature, taking into his consideration also that on all occasions in all coun tries where bodies of slaves had been freemen, the contrary was the case, and that, so far from manumitted slaves feeling an inclination to work for hire, experience went to prove their disposition to be quite the reverse.—(Hear.) Their Lordships, it was true, had heard of the beneficial results of manumission in the case of the province of Co lumbia; but he put it then, even supposing the good effects of slave emancipation in that case had been more than transient, whether a disposition on the part of 100,000 emancipated slaves to work for hire gave any reasonable assurance that the entire slave population of the British colonies, amounting to 800,000, would he pos sessed of a similar spirit. The case, however, of the pro vince of Columbia was any thing but satisfactory, for within a year after emancipation took place they had it on the authority of a person of very considerable eminence who had written on the subject, that the arrangement was a most dangerous one, and that scarcely one of the manu mitted slaves could be got to work at all.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Earl had instanced the case of Africa as a proof that the freed slave could he brought to labour for hire, but he seemed altogether to forget that the African slave had not so to labour in tropical and low grounds. If the West Indian slave could be got to work at all he would work only for his food, and that being secured, he would seek nothing but repose in the shade. Indeed, unless be was much mistaken, the plan of emancipation which the Noble Earl had himself originally proposed— and, although the plan was not before Parliament, as it had reached the public through the Press, he thought he had a right to allude to it—he fully admitted that, unless some very strong measures were taken, it was not to be expected that the manumitted slave population would la boor for hire, and had proposed that, in order to induce them to labour, there should be a measure of coercion in the shape of a tax on the import of provisions. Now he should be glad to know how, if the negro were not likely to work as an apprentice, it was to be expected that he would work after the period of his apprentice. ship had expired, and, consequently, after all the means with which at present the planter was armed to compel that work were at an end,—(Hear, hear.) He could not indeed conceal from himself the fear that the consequence of the removal of all control would be a total ana com plete cessation mf the valuable produce of the colonies. (Hear.) He next came to speak of the proposed loan or grant of fiftee❑ millions, as it was originally proposed. Supposing the emancipated slave to work for hire, he wish e d to know what the grant of fifteen millions was for?—(Hear, hear.) Why, he asked, was England to give or to lend fifteen millions to the colonies if the people would work? It might indeed be necessary to afford compensation to the planters fur the difference they would experience between paying labourer, and having slaves; but he would wish clearly to understand the precise prin ciple on which that loan of fifteen millions was proposed. If it were true that the freed slave would work, for what reason were they to give compensation ? It was proposed that all infant children master six years of age were at once to be deemed free; and, by the way, it did not appear by whom those children were to be taken care of from the passing of the Bill. Was it to remunerate the Planters for the loss of those infant slaves that the sum of twenty millions was to be granted ? Again, the slave apprentic e was to be entitled to one-fourth of his day for his own private purposes. Was the compensation to be given to remunerate the master for the loss of so much labour ? The slave apprentice might not work even the time that his labour was allotted to his master. 'Yas it to compensate for that probability that the sum of twenty millions was to be granted ? Then at the expiration of twelve years the master was to lose all rights to his slaves' labour. Was it to compensate him for that loss that England should pay twenty millions ? These were shades in the transaction which bad not been explained by the Noble Earl, but which he (the Duke of Wel lington) thought well worthy of such explanation._ (Hear, hear, hear.) He believed that great loss would be sustained by the planters; indeed he felt confi dent that the twenty millions would not be compensation for that loss, nor any thing like it.--(Hear.) There was another part of the subject to which the Noble Earl had not adverted at all, and that was the probable state of the commerce between Great Britain and her Colonies. Sup. posing it to be true, anti he put the case hypothetically, that the slaves would not work, would not there be an end to all that commerce which bad for so many years been carried on as much to the advantage of the naviga • ties and political influence of Great Britain as for the advantage of her commercial pursuits and character ? He would now look at the measure on the score of revenue. On the article of sugar there was a tax of twenty-four shilling s the cwt., producing several millions to the State. But, supposing ;:he emancipated slaves would net work, that thus was hereafter only half production, or perhap s ❑o production at all, he should like to know from the Learned Lord on the Woolsack how they were to pro vhle the five millions sterling , now supplied by the colo nies. He would request the Noble and Learned Lord to look at the question in that view. The revenue lutist fall ; that w; s his argument. Then there was another point, he would put it hypothetically (it was well worth consideration) that if production did fail, where were we to get our sugar from but from other Slave Colonies ? Though he was one who consider e d that the Government of the country might, nay ought to have prevented the question from ever coming to this state, he felt that it was impossible to reject the resolutions, more particularly as they were intended to go out to the Colonies as the ground-work of other measures. He believed, however, that a recommendation from this country was the mode most likely to induce the Colonies to carry the spirit of them into effect.—(Hear.) It was a favourable circumstance that there were in this country agents for the various colonies from whom his Majesty's Government might obtain information as to the wishes and intentions of the colonies themselves. By those agents it had been distinctly stated that the colonies considered themselves bound in justice to themselves to require compensation for the substitution of free la bour for slavery ; but that as his Majesty's Govern ment were disposed to give them compensation for the loss and risk which they must sustain, and to provide an adequat e police in the colonies, for the purpose of carrying the new system into execution, the colonies on their part were ready to consent to the arrangement, and to give every aid in their power to its successful comple tion. If Parliament were to force the plats on the colonies, by at once making it a law, or if they were to adopt any other mode of proceeding but one of conciliation and per. suasion, it was manifest that they would degrade the Colonial Legislatures in the eyes of those whom they were called upon to govern. Nor was it to be expected that men who found themselves in the situation of Legislators would quietly submit to have laws of such a descrip tion imperatively imposed upon them. It was not in the nature of man not to resist such a proceed. ing. What would be the consequence ? That a contest would take place between his Majesty's Government and his Majesty's troops and the white inhabitants of the colonies, for whose protection it was our duty to provide, a contest which must end in the total destruction of all the colonies themselves. The beet course, therefore, to avoid such mischief would be to send these resolutions to the colonies, but in the shape of resolutions only ; to urge the colonies to adopt them, and to carry them into effect ; to use every means of persuasion and conciliation, but not to make the resolutions a matter of law or force except as a last resource. Indeed, what he would most earnestly recommend to his Majesty's Government would be to send out a commissioner to the colonies, armed with full au thority to settle the whole question. With resptct to the resolutions which related :to the moral improvement of the negro, he had an amendment to propose, namely, to omit the words " a liberal and comprehensive system of education." No man could be more desirous than he was that when the negro became free he should receive every moral improvement which could be communicated to him; but those who were aware that the words in ques tion were introduced into the resolutions as they were originally proposed by his Majesty's Government were aware that they pointed to the toleration and encourage ment of missionaries; and there could be no doubt that if they were adopted, society in the West Indies would con tinue to be, as it had been, greatly distracted. Having said so much he would nut trouble their Lordship further than by declaring that the plan had his best wishes for its success, although lie avowed that he had his doubts upon the subject. Lord SUFFIELD expressed his satisfaction that this important subject bad at length been brought under their Lordships' consideration, although he confessed that he should have been better pleased if the Noble Earl had taken a higher tone upon it. It had been argued at the present period, as it had been argued at all former periods, that the slave was not yet tit for freedom. The answer was, that the slave was prepared to take hie freedom but you did not give it him. It was impossible longer to keep the negio in a state of slavery. The two points to which he wished particularly to cal the attention of then- Lord ships were the third and fourth resolutions. The third resolution provided that the slave should verve an appreu- ticeellip for a certain term of years before he became en ti• tied to his freedom. He would not complain of that as an injustice to the slave. He would not contend that the slave had an abstract right to immediate emancipation. He most heartily wished that the question was settled-- first for the benefit of the slaves, then for the welfare 0 the West India Proprietors, and lastly for the prospori of the parent state. He had another and a paramount reason for wishing the success of the present proposition. He looked upon it as a great example ; and that if i! proved successful, it would lead to the termination of sae very throughout the wo r ld. Th e proposition to which he . had just adverted, however, was calculated to defeat the object in view. That it would und ergo qualifi ca ti ons both in that and in the other House of Parliament he had not the slightest doubt. But he should be very glad to get rid of it altogether ; or if that could not be accom plished, to fix the term of apprenticeship at the shortest possible period. He confessed he should wish to see the adoption of a proposition made by a Member of the other House of Parliament —namely, that only a part of the compensation money should be paid to the planters in the first instance ; and that tr:e remainder should be withheld until the termination of all the apprenticeships. He was persuaded that these apprenticeships would be found be neficial to the planters. When the proposition los these apprenticeships was introduced, it was accompanied by that most unwarrantable proposition, that the slave should work out his own freedom. Thank God ! the gross in justice of the latter proposition had been got rid of ; and that being the case, he could not see the necessity of re taining the system of apprenticeship as all. One word as to the compensation. He was not disposed to quarrel with it if it accomplished the object in view— complete emancipation.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Duke had adverted at some length to the proceed ings of Color - 1;11 Legislatures with reference to the slaves; and had asserted, that from those proceedings the slaves had derived much benefit. On that point he dif fered from the Noble Duke in toto. He did not think that the slave proprietors had done any good whatever for the slaves. On another point he entirely differed from the Noble Duke. The Noble Duke was of opinion that when the negro was emancipated, lie would not be found disposed to labour. Against that opinion he (Lord Suf field) appealed to the evidence taken before the Committees of both Houses of Parliament. It had been argued by the Noble Duke, that by the abolition of slavery in our colonies, we should encourage the slave trade in places not within his Majesty's dominions. He (Lord Suffield) maintained the direct reverse. If we proceeded, as we ought, we should show the world how much more cheaply sugar could be produced by free than by compulsory labour. With respect to the words " liberal and comprehensive system of education," which the Noble Duke wished to strike out of the resolutions, he must observe that they were words to which a great portion of the people in this country attached the greatest weight; and surely it ought to be a part of the object of Parliament in this measure to satisfy the people of this country. He anxiously hoped that the prejudices which at present existed against cer tain religious sects in the colonies would subside; and that, under a better system, they would become wholly extinct. It was an abominable falsehood that the mis sionaries were to be considered the instigators of the in surrection in Jiniaica. The Duke of WELLINGTON bed made no insinuation of the kind supposed by the Noble Lord. Lord SUFFIELD had understood that some people supposed that the missionaries had instigated the negroes to commit the outrages to which lie had referred. The Earl of HAREWOOD said, the Noble Lord, in the course of his argument, had mentioned something about the labour of free negroes in raising sugar, and had referred for proofs of his assertions upon that subject to the reports of this House and the other House of Parlia ment. He (the Earl of Harewood) would defy him to point out a single instance of the successful cultiva•ion of sugar by free negro labour. Lord SUFFIELD—AdmiraI Fleming. The Earl of HAREWOOD asked whether Admiral Fleming said that he had seen free labourers cultivating sugar in the West Indies ? He (the Earl of Harewood) might be in error in so far; that might be an instance of free labour employed in raising sugar ; but it was the only one. There was no other instance of the kind. As a proof of the loose way in which the whole of the pro ceedings on this most important subject had been con ducted by his Majesty's Ministers, their Lordships need only observe that the proposed measure had been agreed upon without any reference to the interests of the colo nies whatever, without reference to any consideration hut the freedom of the slaves; and he would state, in confirmation of his assertion., that up to this moment the West India body had never bad any commu nication with the Government about matters which related so essenti illy to the preservation or destruction of their property. With regard to these resolutions, all the information which they received was received at a very late period, and appeared contemporaneously in the public prints of the same evening. He (the Earl of Harewood) had had opportunities of knowing the senti ments of that body, as well from his knowledge of indivie duals, as from the expressions of their opinions at public meetings ; and he would then state, on his own responsi bility, that there was no clause whatever for entertaining those suspicions which were indulged in by some Noble Lords—that they were not disposed cordially to cones', ;n the measures of Government for the amelioration of the condition of the slaves. On the contrary, he could assure the Noble E al that there existed among them a determined desire to carry the measures of Government into execu tion, because they were sensible that the mere agitation of this question bad already produced a state of the utmost danger among that population. He was aware that there were certain details which were to be left entirely to the Colonial Legislatures; but what was the effect of this ar rangement ? The Imperial Parliament was to enact the freedom of the negro ; but was to leave to the Colonial Legislatures the odium of enacting the penalties and punishments which must be appointed in order to carry the plan into effect. He was sure that it must be the wish of his Majesty's Ministers to uphold the authority of the Colonial Legislatures, and he would therefore implore them to take into their consideration the propriety of leaving the matter more to these assemblies. He was persuaded that they were determined to meet these resolutions with their best endeavours for the good of the slaves. He took this opportunity to suggest in as strong terms as he could, that the West India Body felt that they had no interest which could induce them to act in opposition to the wishes of the British Parliament. He had used all the means in his power to bring them to that conclusion, and he bad suc ceeded. Earl GREY said no one felt more deeply and more strongly than he did all the importance of the question, all its difficulties, he would almost say, all its dangers. They had applied a remedy to evils which could not be concealed under the pressure of a strong necessity, which could no longer be avoided. They had arrived at a state when they were :to longer free to inquire, but were com pelled to act. Preparatory measures were contemplated previous to the emancipation of the slaves, to render them fit gradually for the enjoyment of freedom ; but, unhap pily, those preparatory measures had not led to the conse quences which were anticipated. He would venture to say that those preparatory measures had been but very partially carried into effect. Be that as it may, the ques tion was now forced immediately upon them in the West Indies, by the state of things in which the colonies were left by the agitation of the question —at home by the over whelming force of public opinion. Under thesecircum. stances Government had e nd eavoure d to perform its duty, by applying itself in the beat way that it could to the con sideration of the subject. He could not see upon what grounds the Noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Harewood) founded his complaints of the hard maneer in which the West India plant e rs were treated. He could say, that during the whole period of the discussion 'lima the question of slavery, and in every measure that had been proposed for bettering the condition of the slaves, it had been the anxious, the earnest desire and endeavour of the Government to conciliate them by every means in their power. But how had the West India body received the advances of the Government ? It had met with nothing from them but difficulties and ob structions. They had uniformly stated, when applied to for advice, that they had nothing to propose. Govern ment had therefore endeavoured, by the best lights which it possessed, to settle the question. With respect to the observations of the Noble Duke (the Duke of Wellington), looking at the immensity of the bearings of this question, at the numerous and important interests, both at home and abroad, which were involved in the consideration of it, he might find some excuse for the circumstance of which he complained—that measures of different kinds were proposed at different times. He believed that this would be found to be usually the case in all complicated affairs. With respect to the specific charge, that so little attention bad been paid to the West India body, that this plan had only been announced to them on the same day as it was published in the public papers, how that happened lie (Earl Grey) could not tell ; but all he could say was, that it was not published by Government. It appeared in a print which was so far from communicating with the Government, that it uniformly opposed it. The plan appeared first in the Standard. The Noble Earl also argued that the resolutions would be carried into effect las the Colonial Legislatures; but remembering how little had yet been done by these bodies, remembering how willing they had al ways shown themselves to add to the difficulties which surrounded the ques ti on , h e di d not think tbctprlis, oil would be doi ng i ts d uty if i t did not take ete4thell suri s for securing tl e execution of its wisher' o iet Earl (we und e r s t oo d F ai l G rey to say) ht3tior"tt that Parli ament w i s h ed to throw the odium penalties upon the Colonial Legislatures. The Earl of HAREWOOD explained. lo re° Earl GREY un d erstood the Noble Earl t° a rse it that th e co urse w hi ch it was proposed to 11, efe have a tend ency to l ower the Legislature in 010 the colo n i s t s . B ut i n what did the meaeureeliffsit differ from th e propositions of the Noble Earl? fell that the plan should be sent out to the eoldni ell ,o the Colonial Legislatures should be allowed ° )di,, Now, if th a t course were pursued, he (Earl G'e Pi i r y we how it could escape the same objections s' e ffc t sterial measure ; it would have just the sa ipe ,iat al throwing th e o di um upon the Colonial h e ' it and keeping the cr e dit o f grace and fass , ° r iq r e , Imperial Parliament; f or , if the resolutleY,' taken out to th e W est Indies, would an ybody', the colonies adopted them, and took me a sures f d ! t li lug slavery, that the resolutions themselves ti o ° ,Pi be the operating cause ? He was of opinion 0 1 sors of security was necessary, in order to o° ,li people that the measure would be carried i°'; 4 o l Ile could not help expre'sing his surprise at tb e o el of the Noble Doke, that ever since the passing ' i d ts o' solutions of 1823, the condition of the slaves ha s4i a constant course of improvement, that the rie s , had uniformly acted with good faith in conforo. these resolutions, and that every seccessive Colo i il d tj tary, fro m 1823 to 1830, hail express e d his ' 3llt o at the tim e w h en t h e Legislatures complied Wi t d junctions contained in these resolutions. Ile e(l b P assent to th i t. Al ' h oup h he had not taken m us s in th e di scuss i ons upon this subject, he had s 1 , / t trop of particulars that were not consistent with ° al affirmed by the Noble Duke ; and indeed, altbey:d had not taken an active part in these proceedingsLS not deny th a t h e ever f elt a deep interest on the subiiiri slavery ; f or t h e a b ol i tion of the slave trade w 013,1 the fir s t measures brought into Parliament after tamed a se a t i n t h e ot h er II ;est., needy half a cent° 4 lie then voted with Pitt and Fox for i!ie measurer ~,, could not for ge t th at t h e measure could never be ' I , $ plished by that Ministry, the most powerful, perll , o this cou n t r y ever saw ; but was left to be carried ) Ministry of which he had the honour to form 4 0 under F ox an d G renv i lle—he himself having intreds the successful measure into the House o f COn y , Under these circumstances, the question of slaw i l o to him (E ar l G rey ) a subject of the deepest it and he should feel both pride and satisfaction i" , having i n t ro d uce d t h e measure for the abolition of tbel, trade int o th e H ouse of Commons, he should also O ro of the Administratio n by which slavery is abolishe d , revert to th e su bj ect o f the assertions of the Noble that the cond uc t o f t h e C olonial Legislatures had b e es' firmly approved of by the Government. Mr. OS ' in 1826 and 1827, complained loudly of the Colon' gislatures—affirming that they had done nothing ' carrying into effect the resolutions of the Imperi• went. But something more, perhaps, may have since. He was doubly surprised at the assert Noble Duke, when he remembered that, in few months before the termination of the :s Administration, Sir Robert Peel, so far from the condition of the slaves was in a state of /movement, made use of the following remarkabi (speaking of the little effect which had been the motions upon the subject, and the increat public opinion, which had grown stronger opal pet ever since 1823)—" He trusted that the' stances would he a warning to the Colonial and would induce them to begin to improve and the condition of the slave population." They in 1830, declared not to have made a beginnin carrying into effect the resolutions of 1823, and therefore, very much surprised to find the Noble serting that the slaves had been in a state of puovement since that date. In not one of the colonies had compulsory manumission been i. and it bad been introduced under very great lit the Bahama., although the statements on the those last islands were made in such a way a , appear to be general there. The Colonial . had constantly disregarded every admonition r emonstrance.—(Hear.) The recommendatii tioned by the vote of both Hi uses in 1825, w' sent out by Mr. Canning, were equally ineffectr by that StatesmanNaLiodt complained the b .h e eg been refractoryh the particulars of the oppressions so eloquently practice of inflicting corporeal punishment upon i t t a l h i t s e u c r o r e e n s eo i h n l a u u d t e i dons, beenaddonoftieben:c everyt ad i n yo d n conduct in t ht of: Colonsetl tary, not excepting Sir George Murray, who hat two circular letters on the subject. This being he considered himself bound to look at these stances, and to take such measures as would seci against similar conduct in future. The Noble Di said that it was always understood that measures be taken to prepare the negroes for freedom. Tht paratory measures had been begun, and what had I result? Not that they had made any progress, at this moment they were as fir from having a, of the speedy abolition of slavery under the present cysts , as they h a d ever b een. Under all the circumstances o'r 4 case, and co ns id er i ng t h e i ncrease of intelligence alli4git the n egroes t h emselves, he contetnpl ited with no stilt degree of appre h ens i on their continuance in their precept state. It was , t h erefore, considered by his Majesty's i vernasent, that a progressive measure, combining, preparato r y state of restriction and a certain deg!'' of freedom, was t h e safest course of proceeding. Wi te regard to 4 the ;negro hi mse lf, it was to be hoped tl' eli a certain d egree o f compulsion would secure for him h3hl * of indust r y, an d t h at the advantages derived by him ft° o 0 the po r ti on o f t i me allotted for his own emolument, Wcies by degr ees o p en hi s eyes to the advantages of that free ( labour w hi c h would prove so beneficial to both the peg and the West Indian proprietor. Under all the c i r cani;: , stances of the case , h e agree d w i th the Noble Lord, th! : no other co urse cou ld h ave been pursued, which promised , e) well to secure the ultimate object they had in vieW* / the complete extinction of slavery in all parts of his M i. jesty's d om i n i ons—as that proposed b y the present Govern ' c o :b sat hat down, al h le e n w fr o o u n ld , s tb l e .' N o' nn f e ) e b no ; er—llt w(uolikeew.aor'"l4:lelieanrNr)eofherlßeeneDfcoeurke lied said, that when the slave tr a d e was a b o li s h e d , the abolition of slavery was not; contemplated. Now, he remembered, it was said bi Mr. Fox, that he abolished the slave trade only merely I because it was not in his power to abolish slavery; and i! was consid ere d, not only by Mr. Fox, but by Mr. l ii. 1 and Lord Grenville, that the abolition of slavery was t h e 1 ne cessary ultimate consequence of the abolition of the slave trade. The measures since adopted had produced 4 1 considerable change in the habits and character of the slav e s, and had rais e d th em to t h at condition, that i" as his Noble Friend said, they were not fit for freedom' they were, at least, not fit for slavery.—(Hear, hear.) In answer to one observation which had been made, h e agreed with his Noble Friend, that if the British Parlir f went thought it right to abolish slavery, the interests 0 those persona who had become possessors of slaves in con . sequence of the encouragement held out to them, and th e security offered to them by the laws of the British empir e ' had a ri g ht t o b e considered, sad to demand that this Fres' , measure of national benevolence should not be at their e%' pense._(Hear.) He therefore considered it just that the/ should have something in the shape of compensation' Whether the sum proposed was too large or too small, be should not pretend to say; but in his opinion, if by means , of this p a y ment t h ey succeeded in abolishing that hatefils condition—a condition particularly hateful to Englishmen it was money well applied, and money which, ardent as WI the desire of the public on this point, he believed they would nut grudge.—(Hear.) They had been called on for ms°Y, years fo r sums muc h larger than this, in order to supPrd the honour and interest of the country ; those sums Is; even grant e d c h eer f u ll y, t h ough be was sorry to add, t he. , honour and interest had been supported by means that we re much to be regretted; and often, when exulting in th e glories to which that expenditure led, his exultation bad bo ° checked by a consideration of the miseries which followe d ' If it was necessary to resist foreign encroachment, to de fend the honour and interest of the country by war, was it less necessary to uphold the honour and character of the country by aboli s hi ng f ron d every portion of the Brit°i, - dominions the odious condition of slavery, so abhorrent t ° , the pri nc ipl es o f t h e Constitation, as well as to the breas t of every Englishman?—(Hear, hear.) H e f or one , en" , tertaining, as he did, a hope that this gr ea t measur e would be succ ess f u l, did no t gru d ge the payment of ey e / I 20,000,000/. Th e N o bl e D u k e w i shed to know by T o '; 1, means the amount of comp ensat i on h ad been fixed ? .` was raised on an e stim a t e o f th e value of the entire Is"°- Imre of the al ryes, which w as ca l cu l ated at 30,000,000 h 1 One fourth of the slave's tune was to be immediately taken from the planters, and ultimately the whole of it; ‘nri according to the best calculations which Ministers had been able to make, they thought that 20,000, 0001 .: would be a fair compensation to the proprietors for all the loss and injury to which they might be subjected by the adcption of the Government plan. Wsile on t his object lie legged to infirm the Noble Duke that it was he intention of Government to propose compensation . t° the own e r s o f every description of slaves. The Noble Du ° had objected to curtain rond4 is vac of Co foglulitPlP yr planter, '1 41 . Any ' M er e to r g e to be 0,, the surph 4;. 41 burdens cwere to „ ° I the a c . t her coon All the Measur t l Oh l " ) b 4 1 4,,„, CH'S.] .c ....... _,„ othing te r ! : sd'art GF inperiii PI ree, of have beet, ii d ° i t 'd EL .ertions 01 te4- veep , 183011 of e h 9t time, Noble Do fiv e 1 ° Nobi irn sayitti,oliiti.t.li, to fre ' consttiet ' o f 4 4 tea, , kable Isce, Itis,..N°ble I 1 n product 4 te ve " by hi reared for ce tte„:" of tl upon tbe , th ' Pt' He I these Circe' p, Pt 1 1 , ~,, a s i ll . we egisletrottl, bon,, ind amebas A lt °thers ey were tl; 4ltunt.hey mi tning tose‘otliiti—t dang and he '''. !iy: He I, ,ble Dulte!,,fr'tv,;giiren tt constant ''''.l'hor only I, ie West letflklt "ions , introucr,ll'kout°4 in a A 1 imitatioci t43eof Col he subject:, tte, t he Min V as t will,' heti than an Leg,,,daietr ) 1)6 ,,' ) g of th t w ught forw a and eeei A ll to ' en ee o itions Oakrwhich 0 % ttht of ( dual. 11011441!' had , lv rieecribekw4L"tre, th * wo e t be i ron;;; a tion i Pon fttl'a°ol(ool4, t een n he spirit, lowed`e gift_ the bri b er great finial 50, ,,,,the sun had writtel Is —all) or Oov ig the ca° therna le e ircutf 1 e di secure be they. no t,s4 3 elv ? Duke '' tini 4 ea ires s hasi ii ti,e Apri These pre. the duty ve ry ti d been til t , , Ic Iv( but 0 4 1 ' 'etsi e - s ulem bei a proriftw t. that: the -.rsvatelit 1 t it v