The Sun. — London, England, 1830-06-25 00:00:00

who were also stated to us to have shown no symp toms of aberration of-intellect for a length of thus antecedent to their release. This power ought always to be exercised after the greatest considera tion, and with due caution ; it is one, however, of so much value, as well in preventing the improper con finement of persons, as in remedying the negligence of friends, who, though reluctant to consign their relations to these asylums, are not unfrequently equally reluctant to remove them, that the Commis sioners would he violating a most important part of their duty if they hesitated to incur the responsibility arising out of its exercise. It is right to observe, that in many of the above cases, as well as in others, in which upon examina tion the condition of mind of the individuals did not appear such as to justify our interference, the possible sanity of their patients has been suggested by the proprietors and managers of the asylums; and in no instance have we found any indisposition on their part to state all the circumstances which might enable us to form just conclusions on the soundness of the minds of the persons whose cases were under our consideration. Indeed, with regard to pauper patients, we think much more exertion is required to induce parishes to send their lunatic poor to these asylums, than to prevent their con fining them there improperly, or retaining them there beyond the period of their recovery. This observation, nevertheless, must not be ex tended to distant parishes, where the expense of re moval operates disadvantageously, not merely on account of a reluctance to send the poor to these asylums as soon as desirable, hut also by their dis inclination to incur additional charges by the re moval of the persons whose recovery may not prove permanent. We have found it necessary to obtain your sanction to the revocation of one license, and the discontinuance of another. In neither of these cases did we proceed to this extremity without giving serious and repeated warnings to the parties in terested. We strongly intimated the necessity of correct ing great irregularities in the management, and of improving the accommodation of the patients. Had our suggestions been attended to, and the improprieties of which we had reason to complain been amended, we should not have called for your sanction to so severe a measure. The continued perseverance in arrangements which called for our decided reprobation, and a very insufficient attempt at any alteration of the build ings, left us no alternative but to exercise a power which, although affecting severely the property of individuals, is nevertheless indispensable for con troullieg persons who consider profit their only object in keeping these asylums, and who will not be deterred from negligence or malpractices, unless their pecuniary interests force them to regard the comfort of those unfortunate beings who are con fided to their care. The exercise of this power which is vested in us, under the controul of the Secretary of State, appeared to us important, not merely in correct ing cases of flagrant abuse, but also in prevent ing less objectionable irregularities, arid in impres sing on the minds of proprietors and managers of lunatic asylums, that we were resolved, if more lenient measures and strong admonition did not produce due attention to the care and comfort of their patients, that their power of deriving profit from their negligence or their misconduct should no longer exist. Indeed we have good grounds for believing that these instances of severity have excited sufficient attention to j ustify our opinion of their im portance, in creating in all those connected with or interested in these establishments the greatest desire to conduct them in the best manner, and to follow, as far as they are able, the suggestions which, in the discharge of our duty, we have felt ourselves called upon to make. In saying this, we do not wish to impute to coercion that care and attention which we doubt not, in very many instances, proceed from much' better motives. Still, however, where so much depends on the constant and unwearied exer tion of the superintendents, and so much misery may be inflicted by casual neglect or habitual inat tention to what may be esteemed minor or trivial points of management, every stimulus should be added that inspection, remonstrance, and positive though temperate authority can produce. In this, the first year of the provisions of the re cent statute coming into action, every fair allow ance should be made for irregularities and imperfec tions; and from the general disposition which we have found to make improvements, and to mend those parts of the management to which we have objected, we cannot but hope that few instances will hereafter occur in which it may be necessary to exercise this just severity, although a more rigorous attention to various minute points, and an improve meat in the manner of conducting some of the este blishments, ought to be most strictly enforced it future. We cannot conclude our observations without adverting to the practice of placing criminal lunatics in private asylums. At our suggestion you have caused some of them to be removed to other places of confinement, and in one of these instances we were obliged to call for your interference, by the necessity which existed of using more constant coer cion than should ever be generally adopted with respect to patients so slightly affected by aberration of intellect, as was the case with this individual. We are aware that a certain part of Bethlem is appropriated to the reception of criminal lunatics, but its extent is so inadequate to the confinement of all those who are guilty of serious offences, but who are acquitted on the ground of insanity, that we cannot forbear from remarking how ♦ery desir able it is, on every account, that some establish ment should be set apart for the confinement of this class of insane persons. It is indeed a subject well worthy of serious consideration, whether the moral effect on insane persons, either in or out of confine ment, would not be considerable, if those who had committed offences were confined in a prison ex pressly adapted for their reception. Many are the individuals, who labouring under mental malady, are nevertheless fully capable of judging how far their being guilty of crime is likely to conduce to their future discomfort, and of appreciating the dif ference of an establishment set apart for the con- finement of criminal lunatics alone, and of those Asylums which receive within their walls those only whose insanity has never led them to acts punish able by the law. We are aware of the difficulties and expense at tent2ing the formation of public establishments of this nature, but we esteem it an object of so much importance as to justify our calling your serious attention to it; nor should we have felt that we dis- charged our duty to the public, without stating our opinion of the necessity of effecting some alteration► in the present system of confining criminal lunatics. We have thus brought to a close the observations which our limited experience of the establishments placed under our inspection and controul have en . at bled us to suggest. 'We trust that the experiment %did' the Legis lature is making by establishing a new system of inspection of lunatic asylums, not merely in the me tropolitan district, but throughout England, is likely to be attended with success, There are few subjects on which legislation is more necessary, and none attended with greater dif ficulty; so as at once to ensure the comfort of the patients, and not unnecessarily to annoy the feelings of relatives by useless publicity. Whether the present provisions of the law have held a just medium between these two points is a matter worthy of further and of serious consideration. We only hope that the exertions which we have made, and which we shall continue so long as we have these duties confided to us, will have the ten- dency of mitigating the severity of one of the greatest ills to which humanity is subject ; and trust that this great object may be obtained without improper interference with family feelings,and without allow ing our commisseration of the unhappy objects under our protection unfairly to warp our judgments, or C 11134 us intemperately to disregard any one of the complicated interests which may be affected by our decisions. G. C. H. SOMERSET G. H. ROSE FRANCIS BARING G. F. HAMI'SON H. H. SOUTHEY J. BRIGHT J. R. HUALE G. BYNG CHARLES ROSS THOMAS TURNER - ASHLEY C. W. WILLIAMS WYNN. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS-(LAST NIGHT.) _ The Bankers' (Ireland) Bill went through a Committee. The Earl of ABERDEEN laid upon the table some additional papers relative to Greece. Lord WHARNCLIFFE presented a petition from Bristol, against the duty on sea-borne coal. The LORD ADVOCATE and others brought up (rota the Commons the Scotch Judicature was read a first time. GREECE. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said that as the Noble Secretary for Foreign Affairs Lad pre sented another series of papers regarding Greece, he was desirous of saying a few words, and of put ting one or two questions to him. He had wished that many other communications, especially between Mr. S. Canning and the Noble Lord, should have been presented, as they would have thrown important light upon those transactions ; but as they were not to be produced, and as this country was at pre sent wrapped up in its own sorrows, he did not wish to disturb them. When he had first ad dressed the House upon this subject, he was war ranted by a gleam of hope which had now entirely dis appeared; but, he could not refrain from urging a few questions regarding what were called Greek Bonds, to which he hoped the Noble Earl would not object to give satisfactory answers. By the Protocol of the 20th February, IS3O, he saw that certain advances were guaranteed by the three Powers to the proposed Sovereign Prince; and by another Protocol of the 7th May, it appeared that that loan was to be to the extent of twenty millions of francs. Now, in a memorandum by the Duke of • Wellington, dated 10th February, his Grace had said, that he could not hold out to Prince Leopold any hope of such aid, and yet afterwards he con sented to be a patty to the guarantee of a loan; and on the 24th of March the Noble Earl stated, that a loan would be made to the extent of 500,0001. He wished, therefore, to ask the Noble Earl, whe ther anything, and what had occurred, to occasion this change of opinion ? Whether any part of the loan 4o guaranteed was to be applied to the pay ment of the principal or interest of the two loans formerly raised in this country by the French Go vernment; and whether it was at all in the con- ternplation of the Allied Powers, that any part of the sum should be so appropriated? These were matters of importance at this moment ; and, on a future occasion, he hoped that a full opportunity would arise, for discussing the principles and details of all the Papers regarding Greece laid upon the table. The Earl of ABERDEEN trusted also, that the time would come when a general debate on the Papers would put an end to these inconvenient in terlocutory discussions. He had no difficulty in stating, that the Noble Marquis was quite mistaken in supposing that any change had taken place in the opinion of Government upon this subject. The first sum proposed to be guaranteed was 500,0001. for the purpose only of maintaining troops necessary for the protection of the Sovereign Prince of Greece. The perseverance of his Royal Highness, and the dis position of some of the Allied Powers to grant more, had induced the British Government to agree to increase the amount by about half the original sum ; and it had done so, because for such a consi deration it would not take upon itself to destroy all hope of arrangement. As to the Greek Loan or Bonds, he had no hesitation in saying that the Bri tish Government had no knowledge of any such transaction, and that the proposed loan had not the slightest regard to a connection with them. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY had great satisfaction in having drawn from the Noble Earl this distinct explanation. At the same time he must say, that there was a considerable difference between 500,000/. and 800,0001.; and so far there had been a change in the intentions of the British Gorern- meet. He was happy to hear that no part of the money had been designed to be applied to the liqui dation of the loans to the Greek Government, and in the City a wrong notion upon this point had given rise to a good deal of what was called stock jobbing. The projected loan was solely for the maintenance of Greek independence, and was not meant in any way as a guarantee of the loans already contracted. GALWAY FRANCHISE BILL. The Earl of CARBERRY said that the oppo nents of this measure wished to withdraw their prayer to he heard against it by Coun3el, and he should not therefore oppose the second reading. Earl GREY referred to the speed that was ne cessary, and said that he should move the Committee on the Bill to-morrow. The Duke of WELLINGTON gave notice that he would then be prepared with an amendment, al though he agreed that the statute of l Geo. I. ought to be repealed. The Duke of RICHMOND said that he would oppose any Bill which disfranchised any person un heard, unaccused, and unconvicted. After a few words from Earl GREY, the Bill was read a second time, and the Committee fixed for to- morrow. EAST RETFORD. Lord DURHAM proposed that the further pro ceeding on the East Retford Bill, which stood for to-morrow, should be referred till that day se'nnight. A conversation ensued as to the best day for fixing the next proceedings on this bill, in which the Mar quis of Salisbury, the Duke of Wellington, the Earl of Carnarvon, Lord Holland, the Earl of Westmor land, and Lord Carberry took part. It was finally arranged that the next proceedings on the Bill should take place on Tuesday next. Earl fITZWILLIAM presented a petition, pray ing that the Assizes for the West Riding of York shire might be removed to Wakefield. Earl FITZWILLIAM presented a petition from some place in Yorkshire, against negro slavery. Their Lordships then adjourned at a Quarter past Six. HOUSE OF COMMONS-(LAST NIGHT.) Mr. FITZGIBBON presented two petitions from places in Ireland against the increase of taxation. Mr. LITILETON presented a petition from Ralph Stephenson, in the Staffordshire Potteries, against the Commissioners of New Churches' Bill. Mr. SCOTT presented a petition from the tallow candle makers of Rozburghshire, agan.st the duty on candles. Mr. JOHN SMITH presented a petition from certain Christians in Armagh, against their liability to take certain oaths. Mr. O'CONNELL presented several petitions horn Ireland against any increase of taxation. Sir GEORGE MURRAY laid on the table copies of communirationi relative to Canada. ..51r. O'CONNELL postponed his motion relative to the libel law, to Thursday, July 8. MISERY OF IRELAND. Mr. TRANT presented a petition from Sir Har court Lees, complaining of the agitation which was still kept up in Ireland by the machinations of cer tain persons. A run had lately been made on the Banks of Ireland, in consequence of these machina tions, the tranquillity of the country had been dis turbed, and the people seriously injured by a great fall in the price of butter. The Hon. Member, in presenting the petition, called upon the Hon. Mem ber for Clare to abstain from doing any thing which might keep up agitation in Ireland, and which might make the Catholic Emancipation Act less produc tive of good than its friends anticipated. lie had always been one of those who had opposed the pass ing of that Act; but as it was passed and was now the law, he would always exert I imself to make operation 'beneficial. He corm] red the Hon. rind Learned Member for Clare, by their common coun try, to exert himself in preserving the tranquillity of Ireland. Mr. O'CONNELL must disclaim the authority of any individual in that House, and of the House itself, to call him to account for any part of his con duct out of the House which had no reference to tin House. For himself he must say, that he had always exerted his influence to promote the tran quillity of Ireland. Whenever and wherever he had influence, Whiteboyism had ceased, disturbance had ceased, and peace had been restored. True, be had exerted himself by constitutional means to obtain the rights of the Catholics, and by con stitutional means, without any violence, they had obtained all which they wanted. Since he had been in the Hou-e he did not find much encou ragement to address it on the subject of Ire land. He had brought under its notice the sub letting Act and the Vestry Act, and had found only apathy for what concerned Ireland. The Hon. and Learned Member complained with some bitterness of the apathy of the people of England on the subject of Parliamentary Reform. Finding this apa thy, he thought he had a right to make use of the constitutional means in his power to promote the good of Ireland. He had convinced himself that a gold currency would be as advantageous for Ireland as England ; being conscientiously convinced of that, he had called on the people of Ireland to obtain for themselves a gold currency. The Hon. and Learned Member referred to an expression of Mr. Shiers at some public dinner, who had complained that the manna of patronage fell on no Catholic head, and said the complaint had been attributed to him. He disclaimed it—he wanted no patronage from Go vernment—he had never sought it, though there were some gentlemen at the Irish Bar who were injured, because the Government would not give them silk gowns while they passed over him. Mr. DOHERTY rose principally to answer a qnestion of the lion. Memberfor Dover, and, in reply to that, would state that the Act for putting down illegal and dangerous associations would continue in force till after the next Session of Parliament. The Hon. and Learned Member then referred to the con duct of the lion. Member for Clare; and while he disclaimed any right to call him to account for his conduct out of tha House, he did complain, and he thought he had a right to complain, of a certain letter addressed by the Hon. and Learned Member for Clare to the people of Ireland, instead of his standing up in that House, where be had aright to express his opinions, to make them known.— (Hear, hear.)—He complained of some expressions in that letter that tended to anything rather than to promote tranquillity.—(Hear, hear.)—He cow• plained of the lion. and Learned Member using such phrases, as a preface to tranquillity, as " war to the knife."—(Hear.)--The conduct of the Hon. and Learned Member reminded him of a maniac who resolved to ruin the manager of a country theatre. He said he would ruin him by one word, show his popularity in the county-town, and convince the ma nager ssf his great power. On a benefit night, this maniac, placing himself in a spot where he might be quite safe, began to call out lustily, " Fire, fire:" That one word was quite enough—tile theatre was instantly in confusion —many suffered, indeed, by the terror and the attempt to escape; but the maniac was delighted with his power, with the ruin of the manager, and the consternation of the audience. It was not a drllicult thing for the Hon. Member to show his popularity, and his power by a cry of fire.—(Hear.)—The majority of the popu lation of Ireland ere to be roused against his Ma jesty's Ministers by the fiat of the Hon. Member, who thought they were to be driven back from their point by any individual who had the power to produce a panic in the country. There was nothing so easy—it was but to cry fire ! The Hon. Member had addressed a letter to the people of Ire land, telling them that gold was better than paper —that a sovereign was sure to be always worth twenty shillings and it might be worth thirty shil lings; and telling them, therefore, always to demand gold. The people had taken the alarm ; and what, he asked, were likely to be the effects on the country ? He called on the lion. and Learned Member to recollect what was the condition of Ire land in 1821. He reminded him what was the state of England in 1825, and he would perceive what would be the consequence of his letter. No longer ago than Saturday last, the people were in a state of consternation. Their produce in the Water ford market fell three or four pounds in the hundred —it fell from 30 to 40 per cent. in some instances —the result of the panic that was produced by the letter of the Hon. and Learned Member.—(Hear, bear.) The lion. and Learned Member complained of the apathy of the House with regard to the people and the affairs of Ireland, but without any reason. For himself, he felt from his heart for those sufferings approaching almost to famine, which i was perhaps impossible to avert; but he did no _ _ think that the evils of famine could be remedied by adding to them those of panic, confusion, and anarchy. For his part he must call on the Hon. Member to desist.—(Hear, hear, hear.) If the taxation imposed on Ireland were wrong, let the Hon. and Learned Member face the Ministers and tell them so; let him meet them by arguments ; and he did think there were arguments which might be used—topics which might be feelingly urged to :all on Ministers to reconsider this question : but it was not right in an individual to throw all Ire land into agitation, because the conduct of the - Ministers was not approved of by that individual. —(Hear, hear.)—Let not the country, in the name of God, have war to the knife ; let it not be in volved in ruin and confusion, because one individual was not satisfied. That was not right ; it was not creditable either to that House or the country. The Hun. Member for Clare had promised to do great things for Ireland. What had he done ? In that 11m se he had done nothing. He complained, in deed, that the House did not lend a patient atid a willing ear to his addresses. Ile told the petition ers that their petitions were neglected; but he would take the experience of the last twenty years —he would refer to the many hours of patient in vestigation and hard attention of that House to the atraiis of Ireland to refute the allegation. It was one thing to be indifferent to the claims of Ireland —it was another not blindly to follow the com mands of the Hon. and Learned i♦lember. He had witnessed the state of Ireland with much anxiety during the last few weeks he had been ix that country ; there were tufferings which perhaps could not be averted ; but he was sure that exciting alarm, and provoking a panic, must aggravate thoe evils it was the wish of all good men to try and avert. — (Hear, hear.) General GROSVENOR was of opinion, after the statements which had been made, that it wtis high time that the lion. and Learned and Catholic Member should be observed.—(Cries of " Order !" " Hear, hear," and loud chee:s.) Mr. SPRING RICE rose to speak to order. Mr. O'CoNNELL attempted to rise, but was kept down by Mr. ; and considerable confusion existed for a few moments, some Members cheering, and some vociferating " Order !" Mr. S. RICE WAS at length suffered to say that there was one word, and only one word, used by the Gallant 011icer which he thought it right to take notice of, which, in fact, the House was bound, he thought, to find fault with, as quite unparlia mentary. The non. and Gallant General had no ri ht, since the law recognised no distinction, to call any Member• a Protestant Member or a Catholic Member. It was not parliamentary, and certainly it would not be convenient. This Wag the first time, he believed, that any such allusion had been made, and he trusted that he did not interfere unnecessa rily. If they were not checked in time, they would lead to serious inconvenience, and in time to great confusion. The SPEAKER said the House, and no Mem ber of it more than the Gallant Officer, must feel obliged to the lion, Member for calling the Gallant General to order. The Hon. and Gallant °Rice, must feel the impropriety of making any distinctio n, among the Members of . that House, since the law had once settled that there are to be no distinctions. General GROSVENOR bowed to the authority of the Chair, and to the call to order made by the Hon. Member in such good humour. He had only used the word as a means of distinction. There were so many Hen. and Learned Members that he knew not how to describe him. He was glad that the Hon. Member for Dover had made these ob servations in his place. The House had been ex posed to considerable inconvenience from the num ber of petitions presented to the House from Ireland against the proposed scheme of taxation, and all these pettions apparently proceeded from the bureau of the Hon. and Learned Member. The letter al ready alluded to was signed Daniel O'Connell, and that he presumed was the same Hon. Member. The Hon. Member referred to the petitions from Ireland, and described the apathy of the House as discredit able to it; but, in his opinion, those petitions and their consequences were discreditable to nobody but the Hon. and Learned Member. Mr. O'CONNELL wished to make a few ob servations. When he did not reflect on the pri leges of the House, and he did not claim the benefit of them, he must again say, that the House had no right to take cognizance of what he had done out of that House. He did not wish, however, by a total silence, to appear to be discourteous to the House, though he had no wish not to show that towards the Ilion. and Learned Member for Kilkenny; he had neither courtesy nor approbation to show for his observation. The Hon. and Learned Member had alluded to a letter of his, and to the expres sion in it of " war to the knife ;" but the Hon. and Learned Member, with his forensic habits, had applied to one letter of his what was in another. The phrase, " war to the knife," was contained in the letter he had written on the subject of the new taxation, and not in the letter written to the Water ford paper. 'That taxation, the Hon. Member might be assured, would not be borne by the people of Ireland ; and, as he had failed in the House to make the Minister sensible of its impropriety, he could only inform the Irish people of it. If the Hon. Member approved of that taxation—and, if he dial not, he would not be suffered to remain on the Mini sterial benches, he would hear of it from one end of Ireland to the other. He felt that Ireland could not bear additional taxation at present, and he had called on the people to petition against it, and he always would call on them to petition against any measure so mischievous. The Hon. and Learned Member had attacked him for doing so with many theatrical gestures, and with all the dexterity of his forensic habits; but he did not understand what the Hon. Member charged him with except instigating the people to petition. lie had done so, and, if it were necessary, he would do so again. The Hon. Gentleman complained of the injurious tendency of the letter, and expressed regret that it had been published ; but what would be the consequence of this attack ? Why, that the letter would be pub lished in every paper in the kingdom, and a greater publicity given by the means taken to suppress it. He had been taunted with writingletterc to the people of Ireland, but at the moment he was so taunted, was he not also reminded of the existence of that most unconstitutional law, made by the power of a Lord Lieutenant's Proclamation, which rendered it im possible for any man publicly to address his fellow citizens, unless through the medium of a letter ? He had taken that course. He did it at his peril, and he knew the consequences. He was unable to deliver his sentiments in any other manner. It did not surprise him that those who made other at tacks on hint were cheered, and that his defence was received in silence. He knew he was no favourite with any party. He had never supported any. He had not supported the Oligarchy of that House, and both sides, of course, united to applaud those who opposed him. The Hon. Member for Kilkenny (Doherty) was a man of high legal attainments and extensive experience, but there were men who had out-talented him in the sit of abusing. There were men not like the Member for Kilkenny, but men totally destitute of learning or of a knowledge of law, who had risen to the highest eminence —who, if they had not quite reached the ermine, had yet attained the highest subordinate station by no other merit than the unceasing application of abuse to him. He would have attacks still from such men— to be sure he would.—(A laugh.)—ln spite of them and all such attacks, he was determined, how ever to follow that course which his judgment pointed out to him to be right and expedient. [A silence, marked and extraordinary, prevailed on both sides of the House during the whole of the Learned Member's address.] Lord HO\VICK characterised the course recom mended by the Hon. Member for Clare as the most mischievous tktt could be devised for Ireland and its people. He would call it wantonly mischievous, but that he believed the Hon. Member was not fully aware of the consequences it would produce. Mr. HENRY GRATTAN deprecated the con tinuance of discussions on subjects already disposed of, and entreated the Hon. Member for Dover (errant) not to press the printing of a petition so mischievous in the principle it details. Mr. TItANT said it was not usual to print such petitions, and be merely moved it be laid on the table. GREEK TREATY. Sir R. PEEL brought up copies of the Corre spondence between the Plenipotentiaries of the Great Powers and the Ottoman Porte. They were laid on the table. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. Sir R. PEEL having moved the Order of the Day for resuming the adjourned debate on the Court of Chancery, Mr. BARING hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would state spe cifically what course he proposed to adopt with re spect to the business before the House. It was ex tremely inconvenient for those who were interested hi the Bills which might be brought on after the termination of this discussion, to go away without knowing whether they could come on that evening; and yet it was not safe, when discussions on im portant questions were taken at two or three in the morning, to presume on the lateness of the tcrmi -••••• nation of any debate preventing their being brought on. He wished to know at whet hour the Right Hon. Gentleman would take the debate on the Beer Bill, or if he intended to carry it forward another stage that night ? The CIIkNCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the principle of the Bill and of its clauses had been already decided on in very full Houses, and he certainly intended to go on with it that evening. Such had been the understanding, he believed, in the House on a former evening. Mr. MABERLY said he had a clause, differing altogether from any of those disposed of, on which he wished to take the sense of the House. The interests of full 70,000 persons were at stake on the question, and he therefore entreated the Right Hon. Gentleman to postpone it, and enable the matter to be fairly considered. If the Right Hon. Gentleman did not yield to the wishes of the people on that point, and persisted in taking im portant business at late and unseasonable hours, he (Mr. Moberly) should certainly feel himself justified in putting a stop altogether to the business of that House at such hours. He had the power and he NV:IS determined to use it. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEBUER said the question of the principle of the Bill, and of the clause of the Hon. Member for Kent (Sir E. Enaichbull), had already been fully discussed, and disposed of in a House of upwards of 250 Mem bers. The clause of the Hon. Member for Abing don (Mr. Moberly) was precisely similar hr prin ciple, and he could not consent to postpone the further stage beyond that evening. MABERLY denied that the clause was the same. The clause of the Hon. Member for Kent torched the principle of the Bill—his did not touch that principle. After some further conversation, BROUGHAN said, that to talk of what they might do at two o'clock in the morning with respect to the Beer Bill, when they were going lo engage in a discussion on the Court of Chancery, was just about as rational as to speculate on what they might do with their estates if the Court of Chancery should he reformed. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER finally said, that he must wait the termination of the forthcoming debate before he made any further de claration on the subject. Sir C. \VETIIERELL postponed until to--nor row his motion on ex-officio informations (we believe). COURT OF CHANCERY—ADJOURNED DEBATE. The Order of the Day for resuming this Debate having been read, Mr. J. WILLIAMS rose to state the grounds on which he felt it his duty to dissent from the propo sition of the Hon. and Learned Member for Plymp ton. The necessity of a new Judge in the Court of Chancery was urged in the several reports which the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the best mode of facilitating time business of that Court had made. Mr. Bell had also advocated it on the ground that the appellate jurisdiction of the Lord Chancellor prevented his bestowing sufficient time on the proceedings in equity. The necessity of an additional Judge was besides asserted by Mr. Bicker steam, and the Vice-Chancellor—and, indeed, was too plain to be controverted. The Hon.!and Learned Gentleman then referred to several details descrip tive of the state of business in the Court of Chan cery. According to the statement made by the late Lord Gifford, in the year 1810, it appeared 1,700 bills were filed in the Court of Chancery; in the year 1823, there were 2,400, making an increase of one-fourth in thirteen years. It was an historical fact, that in the middle of last century, the whole sum which stood in the name of the Chancery Ac comptant• General, was under 2,000,0001. sterling, while at present it was nearly 40,000,0001. The arrears of causes necessarily kept pace with the delay of business ; in 1827, there was an arrear of 314 ; in 1828, of 345 ; in 1829, of 348 ; and in the present year, 298. The number of commissions of bankrupt had doubled between the years 1814 and 1824—there were 2,000 bankrupt petitions ; so that the business not only increased in a rapid ratio upon the Court, but the evidence of the learned persons most conversant with it showed that the judicial power of the Court of Chancery was inadequate to the performance of the business of the Court. He knew, indeed, that the number of " matters and things," to use the phrase of the law, had been in many instances conquered by tile efforts of indi vidual Judges. The Vice-Chancellor had, since Christmas, sat upon 16 holydaya, and got through a heap of business. The Master of the Rolls had fortunately recovered his health, and by his con tinual application to business also done great service. But were these accidental circumstances to be reckoned by the opposers of this Bill? Did not the effort of these eminent Judges imply pressure, and did not pressure imply haste ? Surely this almost super-human effort was not to be reckoned the measure of the general business of the Court of Chancery, Judges ought not to be compelled to devote themselves to such an arduous and inde fatigable application of their mental and physical strength, but ought rather to have some leisure to progress with the general scientific and legal ac quirements of the times : this was impossible, if they were to devote themselves to the degree of labour which Judges sometimes employed in the public service. His Hon. and Learned Friend (Mr. Fergusson) had complained of this Bill, because it did not go the entire length of removing time evil; as if, because every thing was not done, something was not done in the march of impro7ement. He was as sensible as his Hon.and Learned Friend, that the Masters and Registrars' offices were susceptible of improvement : he knew that much remained to he done in restricting the prolixity of written forms, and preventing individuals from having a direct interest in time:shape offees in prolonging them. Still thisßill made some improvement, though it did not reform every thing, and on that account he was decidedly in fa vour of a fourth Judge. This was desirable, not only for the relief of the suitors who were actually within the Court of Chancery, but from those who were deterred from seeking equity there, by the arrears of business at present accumulating. It was a remarkable fact, that in the same degree as quick ness of justice became palpable, so came an increased number of suitors. In the years 1814, 1815, and 1816, there were under the different heads 4,746 cases. In 1827, 1828, and 1829, in consequence of increased effoits to perform tile business, there had been an augmentation of all the heads of business in the Court, from the number of 4,746 to 6,740. But he repeated that it was not by fits and starts, dependent upon the physical exertion of any parti cular Judge, that the public business ought to be performed in a Court of Equity. A Judge ought not to be left plodding like a horse in a mill, in in cessant drudgery ; he should have time to enlarge his sphere of information. Public rather than pri vate considerations required that he should have this opportunity, and not be driven to unremitting efforts in Court, which would necessarily impede his means of acquiring important gener a l i n f ormat i on. These were the reasons which induced him to hail the Bill as an improvement which it was desirable to use. It had been said that the measures proposed by Government were likely to have the effect of mak ing time Lord Chancellor " Vacuil rex solos in aulti. Sir C. WETHERELL—" Vacua rex iEolus Mr. J. WILLIAMS thanked the Learned Gen tleman for his correction, but did not see how the proposed measure could have any such effect. II• did not despair of seeing Es good effect resulting from them, because they all belonged to a uniform plan. He should therefore give them his support, because he thought they were, as far as they went, calculated to effect much good. Mr. R. GRANT said that it was only by a vio lent effort of the mind that he was enabled to come to the conviction that the speech of the Hon. Member who had last spoken was in favour of the measures proposed by Government.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman talked about reforms, but they were not such reforms as were suited to the ._ present legal crisis, and did not follow up with pro per effect the speech from the throne. When be (Mr. Grant) said that the proposed measures could not claim his support, he said so with pain, pro posed, as they were, by his highly-gifted friend, the Solicitor-General. He acknowledged that his Learned Friend had undertaken an arduous task ; but that arduous task became easy if it were to be accomplished by the means proposed to the House. The measure of the lion. Member for Plympton, intelligible in itself, sufficiently expressed his (Mr. Grant's) views on the subject. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman did not say that the proposed changes were unnecessary, but only that they ought not to be the prelude of reform, but the result of inquiry. He (Mr. Grant) conceived that the pre,- posed measure was professedly founded, on the alle gation of present necessity ; that the accumulation of business in Chancery had at length arrived at such a pitch as could not be endured,end that no remedy could be found for the evil but the present one. Notwith standing this reason of present necessity, the House had been obliged to listen to a whole history of the Court of Chancery for two centuries back up to the present time. It had been said that two centuries ago, a motion was made for the appointment of two additional Judges. He certainly had no objection to travel back to that distant period; but he usked where was the necessity of performing that circuite ous route, when it was stated that the whole cas. was founded on a necessity arising out of the present times ? Well, a light had at length broken upon the Government, and the only remedy proposed for the evils disclosed, was by increasing the number of the Judges. But he asked, why did not this light break upon Government, not two centuries, but two twelvemonths ago ? The specific proposition for the appointment of two additional Judges was made two years ago by the Hon. Member for Durham,. The Hon. Member (Mr. Williams) had endeavoured weigh the House down by authority, He had ' ieferred to the commission of 1801 arid 1825. The first commission, however, was appointed to inquire • into the amount of fees in the Court of Chancery's and the last commission had no reference to th e sub ject before the House. The necessity of an add tional Judge was indeed suggested to that commis" sion, aed Mr. Bickersteth made many important suggestions. That Learned Gentleman particularly Observed on the importance of separating the whole of the bankrupt and tithe cases from the juriedic' tion of the Court of Chancery. The Hon. Member had told the House to reflect on the evidence of Mr. Bell and others. Many of those per sons to whom he referred, had changed their opinions; which opinion was to be relied on? —Their first, or that which might be supposed to be the consequence of maturer judgment? Were they to be guided by the evidence of the Via" Chancellor;who was unfavourable to the nomination of a new Judge ? or by the evidence of Mr. Bell, who, though he formerly gave a contrary opinions was now unfavourable to such an appointment also? His Hon. and Learned Friend, the Solicitor-Generals had said distinctly that there was no necessity for the appointment of a new Judge. What had hap pened since to alter his opinion ? He mentioned these changes of opinion on the subject, as allusion had been made to the changes which had taken place in the opinions of Hon. Friends of his in re gard to it. He could quote the opinion given also by his Learned Friend, the Attorney-General, a t t he period to which he referred, and he was glad to fi n d so high an authority with him. The Learned Gen demur' then said, that he did not contend that the Court of Chancery did not require improvement, but that he believed that an increase in the number of Judges was the least likely means of producing it. After that, though these Learned Gentlemen had changed their opinion since, he (Mr. Grant) did not much fear that he and those who thought with him would be overborne by the opinions expressed by the Hon. Gentlemau. The fact was, that in very high quarters a change of opinion would seem to have taken place. A measure similar to this was brought forward in the House of Lords about 12 months ago, and it was afterwards dropped. Why was not a specific case made out for its re-introduc tion now ? In introducing the former measure, the Lord Chancellor, it appeared, was not content with legislative reform, but he also proceeded to practical reform, and he suggested to the Master of the Rolls to change the hearing constitution of his C o urt. The Master of the Rolls did so, he changed the hours of hearing from the evening to the morn ing, and the consequence of that measure was to create two distinct bars in equitable jurisdictions. That was done as soon as it was suggested to him by the Master of the Rolls, but the concurrent measure, the proposition for a new Judge, which was then before the House, was dropped. Thu Master of the Rolls proceeded at once with prompti tude, and he (Mr. Grant) would say, with fortitude, considering the state in which his health was, to carry into effect the recommendation of the Lord Chancellor. This practical reform auxiliary to the legislative measure was immediately effected—by a mere demonstration the town had been carried— and they were now taxing their wits to carry by main assault the remaining fort while the grand object had been attained. Not only was that done by the Master • of the Rolls, but the Vice-Chancellor proceeded to sit in vacation and hear bankrupt petitions. When all that had been done, where was the necessity for this extraordinary effort ? He believed that it was agreed on all hands that this extraordinary effort in the appointment of a new Judge was resorted to in consequence of the extraordinary arrear of business which had accumulated. Now, if this extraordinary arrear of business had been subdued, where was the necessity of this extraordinary effort ? His propo sition was, that where the extraordinary anear of business had been subdued, this extraordinary ex ertion was no longer required to put it down, and that we might go on with the common force of our existing Courts, without appointin g any new addi tional Judge. The Hon. Member proceeded to con" tend, that the arrears having been got rid of, by' the exertions of the Master of the Rolls and the Vice-Chancellor, the equity business could be carried on by the present Judges, that there no neces sity whatever for the appointment of an additional Judge. The arreara had been subdued; and if that were the case, the principle of necessity, which was put forward as justifying the appointment of the new Judge, no longer existed. The Solicitor- General had defended the appointment amongst other grounds, upon this, that it would tend to ac celerate the business in the Registrar's and Master's office. What had fallen from his Hon. Friend, the Member for Rippon, on that point, was well worthy of attention, He had said, that they had no mea sure here to meet the real difficulties of the case; but a measure to which, if they acceeded, they must in a degree augment the difficulties of the case. If his Hon. Friend's premises on that head were just, there certainly was no resisting his conclusions. If it (veils a fact that both in the Registrar's office and in the Master's office they had a fall amount of business even to suffocation, and that no room was left for accelerating it, it was obviously just to conclude that this measure, instead of remedy ing the evil, would only tend to aggravate it. Supposing that the creating of an additional Judge might have the effect of sending causes eighteen ' months sooner into the subordinate offices, no time would be saved by having them sooner in the Re gistrar's or Master's office, but instead ofgaining time, was more than, probable that time would be lost. —What would the Right Hon. Baronet (the Secre tary of State for the Home Department), whose reforms were of an essentially different character from this, say to such a measure as this ? This measure, if passed, would certainly introduce a great deal of bustle, and a great show of reform. Something would be done to accelerate causes until they had got into the Master's Court, where the great cause of delay still remaining, the evil would remain, after all this show and bustle, completely ' unredressed. The Hon. Gentleman had said that his (Mr. Grattan's) Hon. Friend (the Member for Rippon) had been in error as to the amount of causes from the Master's office which had been sent down for further directions in the Vice-Chane cellot's Court. It was true that his Hon. Friend was in error as to the number, and that instead of four there were sixteen. His Hon. Friend had re ferred to the point in consequence of a remark which was made by the Hon. Member for Wootton Bassett ; and though the fact was that the number of causes was sixteen, the Hon. Gentleman was in error if he supposed that those causes had been set down for six terms. There were only three for the time that his Hon. Friend had stated. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL —But they will be set down for six terms before they are heard. Mr. R. GRANT proceeded to observe that as he did not arrogate to himself the prophetic spirit which his lion, and Learned Friend seemed to possess, he could not bring himself to think that this measure would be attended by the mighty reform which his Learned Friend predicted would flow from it. What was the progress which had been made in the pre sent year in hearing Chancery causes ? From Hi lary term up to the present time, as had been shown by his lion. Friend (the Member for Plympton), 1,061 cases had been reduced to the extent of 348, leaving 713 remaining to be disposed of. That was a strong argument against those who contended that ) the Court of Chancery, as at present constituted, ' was not able to get through the equity business.— He (Mr. Grant) understood that since the present measure had come under discussion in that House, there had been 83 cases, in addition to the 348 already mentioned, disposed of. If the present Judges went on at that rate, the business would be alto gether disposed of; and should an additional Judge be appointed, he would have nothing to do; he would be,as the Hon. Member for Plympton had said, " Vacua Rex, sofas in aula." But there were measures accompany this to meet the evils which arose from delays in the Registrar's and in the Muster's office. But those evils were not to be remedied by half measures. The Hon, arid Learned Gentleman relied upon those meaiurei • for prw: Dishing, were hit in place increase( should b and for t. be made say that remain& were to annuatio the regi increase interest salaries NI charges, be paid t rest, they sibly con satisfacti finding t laties in! jection ti liters to they Nver if they wi to work c His lion • already s office nev upon sal was a ba( to work the busin be prope thought • in the M; respect f( of that of they cou Master's evils of w the Cotu Douse tc on this s Gentlem► Commiss cree, the Master's occurred, made an delay pro The Hon John COI delays in mode in the Maste made by expence The Mast paid by ss► would be cellor, at the fees, a] that fund, ferring to office, and constituti( the eviden would 'el( Bell. in Novem toaster to it was not ncunced t who moll that here before thi would be appointme to send t new case, That it shoe questions wl inissioners, brought foi host of co next propo: appeals she in the firs sinners, for under the I appeal to tli already beer power of u plied to ex