The Sun. — London, England, 1830-06-25 00:00:00

esen C one, 318 Ages alto. 'udge 1; hu said, meet trar's were Hon, iurei for producing beneficial effects in the way of dimi nishing the delay and enormous expences which were hitherto experienced in those offices, because in place of the enormous fees here given, and which ►ncreased by length of the proceedings, fixed salaries should be given to the registrars and their clerks, and for all other fees which they receive they should be made to account. It was quite fair and right to say that they should be paid by salaries, but if the remainder of the fees, after defraying their salaries were to be formed into a fund, out of which super annuation and other anew inces were to be made to the registrars, there would be no check upon the increase of that fund, for it would obviously be their interest to increase it, seeing that not only their salaries would be defrayed out of it, but that other charges, such as superannuation allowances, would be paid to them out of it. It would be their inte rest, therefore, to have that fund as large as it pos sibly could be ; that circumstance diminished the satisfaction which he should otherwise have felt at finding that these officers were to be paid by sa laries instead of by f eeq. There was another ob jection to this measure, that it compelled those or ficers to work at business only during:office hours. If they were compelled to work within office hours, and if they were deprived of fees which might induce them to work out of office time, business must accumulate. His Hon. Friend (the Member for Rippon) had • already stated that the business in the Registrar's office never would be well and regularly performed upon salaries, not because the principle of salaries Was a bad one, but because if persons were expected to work only for six hours, and in that period to do the business of twelve hours, the business could not he properly done, and it must accumulate. He thought that great improvement might be e ff ec t e d -• in the Master's office. Feeling as he did, the highest 'respect for the gentleman who discharged the duties of that office, he must at the same time say, that if they could remove the evils which existed in the Master's office, they would remove the greatest evils of which they had to complain with respect to the Court of Chancery. He need only refer the House to the high authority of Master Stephen on this subject to prove the fact. That Learned Gentleman, in his evidence before the Chancery Commissioners, after stating that between the de cree, the order for reference to the Master, and the Master's final report, a great lapse of time constantly occurred, expressed his belief that the complaints made against the Court of Chancery with regard to delay proceeded in a great degree fro.n that source. The Hon. Gentleman referred to a speech of Sir John Copley in 1827, in which he stated that the delays in cases in Chancery were attributable to the mode in which proceedings were carried on before the Master. He did not see that any provision was made by this measure for the diminution of the expence of proceedings in the Master's office. The Masters were, it was true, henceforth to be paidby salaries, but their clerks,who did the business; would be paid by the Treasurer of the Lord Chan cellor, at his pleasure, out of the fund formed from the fees, and as it would be their int ere st t o augmen t that fund, the evil would remain unredressed. Re ferring to the delays which occurred in the Master's office, and which were unavoidable from the present constitution of it, the Hon. Gentleman appealed to the evidence of Mr. Stephen on the subject. He would select as an instance the case of Silcox and Bell. Mr. Stephen stated that that case commenced in November, 1802, that it was referred to the master to report upon it in February, 1803, and that it was not until August, 1823, that the Ceurt pro liminess(' the final decree, awarding to the claimants, who amounted to 115, the sum of 3601. each. So that here there was a delay of twenty-one years before this case was finally decided. Now what would be the effect of the present measure for the appointment of a new Judge ? The effect would he to send the unfortunate suitors eighteen months sooner into the Master's office, where they would be subjectsd to the harassing and vexatious delay he had described. He would say that they must mount to the source, that they must examine the heart of the evil, and they would then see that the remedy did not consist in the appointment of a new Judge. The Hon. Gentleman said that they could not do without an additional Judge in the Court of Chan eery, and, at the same time, he was for transferring a great portion of the present business of that court to the Courts of Common Law. So that he would have an additional Judge appointed, but he would deprive him of half his trade.— The report of the Law Commissioners recom mended the transfer of a great portion of the functions of the Equity Courts to the Courts of Common Law. That was a recommendation of which equity lawyers, generally speaking, under rated the value, while, he must say, that common law lawyers thought very differently of it. The Ilona Gentleman quoted the opinion of Lord Eldon, as to the propriety of relieving the Lord Chancellor of appeal business in the Lords, so that he might be able to attend to business in his own Court ; and he contended that it would be desirable that the Lord Chancellor should be enabled to attend more closely to his original functions in his own Court.— The only mode to enable him to attend to his ori ginal business, consisted in relieving him from the load of appeal business which he had to do; and the effect of this new measure would be to increase the number of appeals by the half.—(i-lear.) In order to be an efficient Judge, it was necessary that the Lord Chancellor should attend closely to the prac tice of his original jurisdiction. It was the opinion of the most eminent persons, and the fist authorities on the subject, that the Lord Chancellor should be to a great extent restrained to his original jurisdic tion, so that he might be able, as the vulgar phrase had it, "to keep his hand in." If that were neces sary in the instance of a Lord Chancellor taken from the Equity Bar, and who must be supposed to be well acquainted with the practice of the Court, it was particularly so in the case of a Lord Chancellor who came from a Court of Common Law. He thought that in reference to the im portant question how far the jurisdiction in bank rupt cases could be separated from the great sea', the Law Commissioners had acquitted themselves in the least satisfactory manner. Now that was a most important question, and it involved a point of jurisdiction of the utmost importance in a commer cial country like this. He (Mr. Grant) would not propose to remove from the Great Seal all jurisdic tion in bankrupt cases. He did not mean to say that 'such a plan would not in the end answer, his opinion was that it would : but it would be accom panied by great difficulties, and eminent persons held different opinions upon it. He thought, however, that an arrangement might be adopted, which, while it would not prevent altogether the interposition of the Court of Chancery in bankrupt cases, would have the effect of taking from the jurisdiction of the Great Seal four.fiftlis of the bankrupt cases with which the Court of Chancery at present interfered. fie did not mean to cast any imputation upon those learned persons the Bankrupt Commissioners, and he wished at the same time that no inference to their credit should be drawn from his silence on that point. His plan with regard to bankrupt cases was this—he would, in the first instance, limit the appeals from the Commissioners of Bankrupts to the Court of Chancery to real appeals. He would next propose that in all such cases, the Court should only hear the case as it had been heard before the Commissioners, and should not be at liberty to travel into new facts, and into the hearing of a complete new case, as was the practice at present, and That it should be prevented from entering upon questions which had not been started before the Com missioners, but which were now for the first time brought forward amidst a battle carried on by a host of confused and tumultuous affidavits. His next proposition, was, that in all cases in which appeals should be allowed, such cases should have, in the first instance, gone before the Commis sioners, for it was preposterous, as was the case under the present system, that cases should go by appeal to the Court above, two-thirds of which had already been heard there in the first instance. The power of appeal he thought ought only to be ap plied to extreme cases, He should only trouble • the House with one quotation more. If by thegt i arrangements he should be able to reduce the busi ness in bankruptcy to one-fifth of its present amount. lie should be able to meet all the present difficultie, of the Court of Chancery. He understood that the Lord Chancellor sat, upon the average, about 30 days upon appeals, and about 25 days upon bus:nes, connected with bankruptcy. Now if he could reduce die business in bankruptcy one-fifth, he should be able to take 20 from the 25 days which the Lon! Chancellor now devoted to bankruptcy, and to add them to the. 30 which lie now gave up to appeals. The Lord Chancellor would thus have 50 clear days in every year for appeals; and he had the opinion of the Lord Chancellor that if he could devote that time annually to appeals, he should soon be able to get rid of the arrears which at present clogged and impeded his progress.—[Here the Hon. Member read an extract from a speech of the Lord Chan cellor to that effect.)—A great deal had been said in the course of this debate about the impropriety of ascribing motives to particular individuals. Now he was far from ascribing improper motives to anybody. He was content with stating facts as he found them; and must say that a measure like the present Bill for amending the practice of the Courts of Equity formed a singular and not a very happy con trast to the legal reforms which had been introduced by the Right Hou. Secretary for the Home Depart. ment. He requested his Right Hon. Friend to postpone the further consideration of it, until lie (Sir R. Peel) could himself look into the whole system of equity law. When his Right Hon. Friend had done that, he (Mr. R. Grant) was sure that he would withdraw his immature and ill-digested mea sure, which, even if it were carried, would leave us still at the threshold of any real reform of the Court of Chancery.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. DO\VDESWELL next addressed the House, but in a tone of voice which was nearly in audible in the gallery. We understood him to be vindicating the conduct of the Masters of the Court of Chancery._ Mr. M. A. TAYLOR did not find fault with the Masters of the Court of Chancery, but with the system of their offices, which he considered a nui sance to the country.—(Hear.)—Why, he would ask, were public functionaries of their great judicial importance to decide upon all cases in a private room ? If that question could he discussed when this measure was regularly brought before the House, be would propose an amendment, which should bring it fairly under their consideration. He had not expected that he should that night have had occasion to enter into a discussion of the mode in which business was conducted in the Master's Office. The real question, in his opinion, regarding the Masters in Chancery was simply this—ought they to be paid by salary or by fees ? He thought that they ought to be paid by salary; for if men of respectability could not be induced to perform their duty by a regard to their characters, he was sure that they would not be induced to perform it by any dirty fees which might be thrown into their pockets.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") The House had now, once more a Bill before it for the appointment of an additional Judge in the Court of Chancery, without having before it a single reason for making any such appointment. His Hon. and Learned Friend, the Solicitor-General, in the course of his acute and able speech—and he gladly gave to that speech the credit which it merited—seemed to imply that it was quite a hardship to introduce into this debate all the objections which had been made for the last 200 years against the Court of Chancery, and had more than insinuated that by pursuing such a course Hon. Members were derogating from the dignity of the High Court of Chancery. lie (Mr. M. A. Taylor) denied that this was the case. Quite the reverse; it was the High Court of Chancery, which, by its system of expense and delay, was de rogatine• from its own dignity.—(Loud cries of hear.) —The Hon. Member was proceeding to illustrate his argument upon this point, when he was interrupted by the loud tone in which three or four Members I were conversing. Turning round to them, he said , that he knew that the subject which he was dis cussing was a dry subject—perhaps a painful one : certainly it was both a dry and a painful subject to him, for he had now been discussing it for more than one-and -twenty years.—(Hear.)—Resuming his argument, he contended that he had done nothing to detract from the respect due to the Court of Chan cery: all that he had done was this—when he had seen a nuisance, he had thought it necessary to have it abated.—(Hear, and a laugh.)—On what principle, he would ask, had the Court of Chancery, or those who presided over it, a right to complain of the objections which had been urged against it ? He called upon the House to mark the whole tenour of the proceedings respecting it. For one-and-twenty years that Court had been complained of. What redress had been devised for such a grievance in that time ? The House of Lords had brought in a Bill, which had afterwards passed the House of Com mons, appointing the Vice-Chancellor as an addi tional Judge in the Court of Chancery. That Bill was opposed by Mr. Canning and other gentlemen of great talent and influence in Parliament, not on the ground that the Court of Chancery did not want assistance, but on account of the nature of the appointment of the new Judge. There was a division upon it in that House, and the division turned upon his motion, and not upon the question whether aVice-Chancellor should be appointed, but whether an additional Judge was not wanted in cases of bankruptcy. Sir S amu el Romilly was of th e same opinion with himself, that such a Judge was wanted in bankruptcy; and so was Mr. Canning. Indeed, in no instance had he ever recognized the principle of an additional Judge being wanted in the Court of Chancery. In the va rious motions which he had made upon this subject, lie had moved that there should be additional force given to that Court by separating from it the busi ness in bankruptcy, by appointing another Speaker for the House of Lords, by a commission, regularly sitting with the Lord Chancellor at the head of it, to regulate all appeals to the House of Lords, and so on. The motion which he had submitted to the House in the year 1828, which the Government of that day opposed, and which he lost only by some 40 odd vutes, was to this effect-4' That it appears to this House, from the papers laid on the table, as well as from the report of the Commissioners ap pointed to inquire into the practice of the High Court of Chancery, that notwithstanding the 4Sta blishment of the office of Vice-Chancellor in 1813, furth e r steps are necessary to advance the general interest of suitors in equity, to provide for the more prompt decision of cases, and to enable the Court of Chancery effectually to discharge the important duties connected with its jurisdiction." He bad on that occasion proposed to make the Lord Chancellor a Judge of appeal in equity, and the occupier of the woolsack in the House of Lords. He wished to make a real Court of Appeal from the High Court of Chancery. He had maintained that it was quite ab surd and ridiculous to say that there was such a Court of Appeal now : he had said " that it was an appeal from a Judge in a tie-wig in Lincoln's-inn— hall to the same Judge in a full bottom wig in the House of Lords,with a snoring Bishop perhaps on one side, and a Scotch Peer on the other, wishing him and the cause together at the devil."—(Hear, and laughter.)—He should like to know on what prin ciple this Bill stood now. In the year 1828 the pressure on the Court of Chancery was great. It was worth their while to consider whether it had increased since. Figures could not be disputed; and he would therefore refer to them rather than to any hypothetical argument of his own. It appeared from papers on the table of the House, that on the first day of Hilary Term, 1830; there stood on the paper of the Lord Chancellor, of re-hearings and appeals, 97; before the Vice-Chancellor, there stood of causes 397; of pleas and demurrers, 9 ; of ex cept;ons and further directions, 103. Before the Master of the Rolls there stood, of re-hearings, 3; of exceptions and further directions, 111 ; and of causes, 351—making a total in the three Courts at die commencement of last Hilary Term of 1,071. On the first day of East er , 1830, there stood on the paper of the Lord Chancellor, of re-hearings and appeals, not 97, but 50 ; before the Vicc-Chancellor, of causes, exceptions, and further directions, 336, snd of pleas and demurrers, 11; and before the Mas ser of the Rolls, causes, exceptions, and further di rections, 316; the whole amounting in the three Courts to 722; whereas on the first day of the pre ceding Hilary Term they amounted 1,071 : so ;hat in the courte of that one term there was a decrease of no less a number than 349. On the ,first day of Trinity Term, 1830, there stood on the paper of the Lord Chancellor, of re-hearings and appeals, 96; before the Vice-Chancellor of causes, exceptions, and further directions, 362 ; and before the Master of the Rolls, 307; amounting in the whole to 768. So that there had been an in crease of only 40 in the last term. Since that time the Master of the Rolls had disposed of 80 cases. In 1828, there was an arrear of 258 cases in bank ruptcy-,-at this time there was not an arrear of one. He should think that this was demonstration suffi cient that the arrear of business was fast decreasing. What, then, would this fourth Judge, if he should be appointed, have to do ?—(Hear.)—The Master of the Rolls was now an efficient Judge in the Court of Chancery—efficient, not only from his high cha racter, great ability, vast erudition, and unvaried promptitude, but also from the great exertions which he had recently made.—(Cheers.)—Though he was riot called upon to - sit in a morning, he had volunta rily imposed that duty upon himself;. he had formed a third court of equity, and had left nothing undone which human ingenuity could execute.—(Hear.) — The Lord Chancellor had likewise got down the arrear of business in this Court. The Vice-Chan cellor had executed his duty to perfection.—( Cheers.) And he (Mr. M. A. Taylor) believed that if the sessions of the Court lasted one month longer, there would be no arrears except in appeals before the Lord Chancellor.—(Hcar.)—lf this fourth Judge were to be appointed for the purpose of relieving the Lord Chancellor from hi s d ut i es i n hi s own Courts, he must say that, even upon that ground, he should object to his appointment. He thought that it would be better to let the Lord Chancellor sit in his own Court, and to relieve him from his duties in the House of Lords, than to recur to this additional Judge. Without dwelling further on the observations of his Hon. and Learned Friend, he would only ask the House whether it was aware of the situation in which suitors of Chancery were placed. If any man from invidious motives filed a bill against another, his first object would be to lengthen his bill to the the utmost; for it could not be too gene rally known that before the defendant's answer could be put in, the plaintiff's bill must be taken off the file, which sometimes could not be done witliout in curling an expence of GO/. or 701. \Vas that an evil or was it not ?—(Hear, hear.)—lf it were an evil, was there any remedy for it in the Bill on time table ?—(A cry of " hear" from the Solicitor-Gene ral.)—He hailed that cheer as an admission that this evil was remedied. If it were, he would take it as an omen that further amendments were in store for the country. He would venture to say, that 28 out of every 30 barristers practising in the Court of Chancery, were opposed to the measure before the House. It was impossible that the Bill could pass with the opinion of the public, and with out that it would be worthless.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. D. W. HARVEY said it was impossible that things could remain as they were, and the ques tion then was, whether the measures before the House would effect the saving of time, and the re duction of costs. If he could bring himself to think that they would, they should have his ready and hearty co-operation. His opinion, however, was the other way, and in that opinion he was forti fied by the declarations of the most eminent lawyer of the present day, its situation conferred eminence,—he meant Lord Chancellor Lyndhurst. He would state to the House what fell from that Noble and Learned Individual upon the occasion of his bringing in a Bill for regulating and improv ing the practice of the Court of Chancery, when he occupied a seat in that House. If he might use the expression, he would convict the Noble and Learned Lord en his own evidence, and show that the Bill was unnecessary. He stated that many recommen dations had proceeded from the Commissioners, which were, in his opinion, abundantly sufficient to remove the crying evils of the Court of Chancery. He then, acting upon the suggestions of the Corn missioners, proceeded to describe certain objects which should be effected. In the first place, he said, " it was desirable to make the subpoena in telligible, in order that the defendant might know what he was called upon to answer." Now he (Mr. Harvey) would ask the Solicitor-General, whether there was a word of difference between the subpama of a century ago, and that served upon a defendant that morning ? There was not a syllable of difference. The' next point which Lord Lynd hurst proposed was, " to accelerate the putting in of the answer to the defendant, by doing away with the intricate forms which prevented a plaintiff from bringing a defendant into contempt." He asked the Solicitor-General whether a single step had been taken towards effecting that object ? Time Noble and Learned Lord also, with great integrity and disinterestedness, had stated that much of the time of the Court was consumed, as perhaps the time of that House, was by long and unconnected speeches, and he proposed as a remedy what might with great convenience be adopted in that House, particularly upon the question before them, that only two Counsel should speak at each side. He asked the Solicitor-General whether that wholesome proposi tion had found its way practically into Court. On the contrary, he had recently heard twelve Learned Nictnbers of the profession address the Court on the question whether the verdict of eleven Jurymen was equal to the verdict of twelve. The next proposi tion of the Learned Lord was, to remedy the system of rotation. He asked any Learned Member of the House whether any regulation had been in troduced upon that subject, and whether the in troduction of one would not be highly favourable to time advancement of business, An d especially of the junior members of the profession ? That point had been prominently suggested and enforced by the Noble and Learned Lord. His Lordship also suggested, as a means of saving time, that the Mas ters in Chancery should no longer be the passive Ministerial agents through which inferior business was administered, but that they should rise into im portance by acting the part and assuming the re sponsibility of Judges, and dischaeging their functions in a manner corresponding with their acknowledged learning and great emoluments. It was part of his Lordship's plan, that the ten masters should be masters of their business. Nothing, however, had been done upon that point. Lord Lyndhurst fur ther suggested that there should be, in matters of bankruptcy, an intermediate Cou: t of appeal, con stituted of seven Commissioners, to determine in the first instance whether there was any ground of appeal. By this means four-fifths of the causes which found their way into the Lord Chancellor's paper would be prevented from appearing there. His Lordship further suggested, as a means of re ducing the number of vexatious appeals, that no ap peal should come before the Court which had not the sanction of two Counsel. This was a whole some, but it had been found an impracticable regu lation. After Lord Lyndhurst had stated these pro positions to the House, he observed, " t h at the Vice-Chancellor's Court needed no alteration ; and dint no new Court of equity was wanted ; but he hoped that the measures which he had recommended in conformity with the recommendations of the Com missioners would cause the existing arrears of 109 causes to disappear from the Court of Chancery. If, after those plans had been carried into execution, further remedies should be required, they might be adopted." It was notorious that the plan of Lord Lyndhurst had not been tried, and therefore the Solicitor-General had no right to come forwatd with fresh remedies. Why should the House be called upon to appoint a fifth equity Judge, when only two out of the four already existing were in full play ? Why not make all four work ? If they were to appoint two or three or more Judges, it would be of no use, while the system remained the same, The Hon. Member for D ur h am h a d said that 28 out of SO of the ("banter) , barristers were opposed to the Bill. He believed that their opposi tion was founded upon an apprehension that their emoluments would be diminished by the esta blishment of a new Court. Now that there were only three Courts, the Counsel took briefs in every case in every Court ; but if there were a fourth Court, they would find it necessary to confine their practice to one or two Courts. So far the arrangement would be advantageous to suitors. But how came it, he would ask, that causes in Chancery were not sooner decided ? Why, they were condemned to that living tomb, from which there was no resur rection,—they were allowed to slumber in the ten mausoleums in Southampton-buildings.—(Great laughter.)—There were three stages in a Chancery suit —first, from the time of its birth till it came into Court ; next, its stay in the Court; and then its itinerancy to the Master's office, and its vagrancy there.—(Laughter.)—Then the cause was to be spoken to—motion made, part heard—exceptions— re-hearing—and, in short, every species of delay which ingenuity could suggest or money could pur chase. He knew that he could not invest a dry subject of this nature with such features as would render it entertaining to a popular assembly; but there was one point which he was sure would com mand the general attention of the House, and it was the simple fact, that there was metallic property locked up in that Court, which was more than equal to two-thirds of the currency of the country. No less than 40,000,0001. was so locked up, besides an immense quantity of real property. For his own part he would go every length to effect a compre hensive alteration in the system; but he saw in the present measures nothing that approximated to a useful reform, but, on the contrary, something that would tend to delay a reform of that kind. He could not conceive how it required an Act of Par liament to regulate the Registrar's office. What was the Registrar? He was an officer who sat, like their Hon. officers in that House, and took down the decrees given by the Chancellor. Now he held in his hand a decretal order—not a final de cree, for he believed it would be a very difficult mat ter for him to produce a document of that kind.— (A laugh.)—This decretal order was for referring certain accounts relative to the estate from the Chancellor to the Master. It was borne to the grave of the Master in 1825, and he did not know whether any epitaph had been yet written on it.— (Laughter.)—Now, looking at that decretal order, he thought it would be a great improvement, if the Registrar, instead of being paid for every word which he had forced into the document, had been paid, on the contrary, for his brevity. He under stood that, both with respect to the Registrar's bill and the Master's bill, the fees out of which they were both paid were to be retained. He knew that that system tended to save the suitor's time (and God forbid that he should under-rate that point), but still he objected to the retention of such an ex pense. He would propose that they should be paid by separate salaries, equally large as any sum they might hope to derive from fees, payable on their making their report. • The SOLICITOR-GENERAL, as we under stood, intimated that the subject was Under con sideration. Mr. D. W. HARVEY—Such was the use of discussion; when he was informed that this object was in contemplation, it not only softened down his opposition, but would probably secure his support. If it were intended to take this course, then his ob servations should be directed simply to the question of the Judgeship. The appointment of a new Judge turned on one plain practical question. Would four Judges, presiding over causes in equity, be practically sufficient to transact the business ? In one sense he would say yes, in another, no. If the system of the Court were suffered to remain as it was, then he would contend that fire or six Judges could not perform the business; but if they altered the equity jurisdiction, then he thought that four Judges would be peifectly adequate for the purpose. Sir R. PEEL thought the time had come when they were called upon to act rather than inquire.— Hear.)—They had had great abundance of inquiry, but a lamentable lack of practical measures. Now, however, that practical measures were introduced, they were told that they ought to inquire again. If they adopted that course, their proceedings would be very similar to those complained of in the Court of Chancery, It was 15 years since this cause was set down for bearing. We refused to decide it. We sent it to the Master—that is, the Commissioners. Hearings, re-hearings, and mo tions followed, but still there was no decision. — There was the first voluminous report of the Com missioners—and three years ago another appeared, one half of which occupied .569 pages. By the measure before the House, three of were pro posed to be effected. - One was to diminish the time before which a hearing could be obtained; — another was to lessen the delay which occurred in drawing up the decree; and the third object was to remove from the Master in Chancery all those mo tives for delay which, he believed unjustly, were imputed to that officer. He alluded to the profits which delays in different stages of a cause were supposed to create. Such were' the three measures now proposed. lint gentlemen called on Ministers to take a different course; they said, " We do not reject your bills; but we are anxious for prelimi nary inquiry." Why, there had surely been in quiry enough already. To come down on the 24th of June, looking► to the long arrears of business in the Court of Chancery, and to demand farther inquiry, appeared to him to be nothing mere nor less than a solemn mockery. Instead of proceed ing with inquiry, he was anxious that they should attempt some remedy for the evil, although it might fall short of absolute perfection, and might not meet the wishes of those who wanted a more extensive and complete reform. He would here inquire whether the business of the Court of Chancery had so increased as to warrant an altera• tion of this kind.? In answering this question, he would found his comparison on what had occurred at a very late period. He would take the years 1827, 1828, and 1820, and compare them with 1814, 1815, and 1816, which immediately followed the appointment of the Vice-Chancellor. In those three years there were 4,801 causes of all descrip tions set down for hearing. In 1827, 1828, and 1829, 6,772 causes were set down for hearing, being au increase of the actual business of the Court of Chancery to the amount of 1,971 causes, in the three last years, as compared with the three years ending in December, 1816. This he thought proved that additional aid was necessary for the sa tisfactory transaction of the business. He would next consider what was the arrear of business in the Court of Chancery during the last four years. What, each of those years, on a given day, had been the number of causes standing on the rolls of that Court, ready for hearing, but which the Court was unable to hear? In 1827, on the first seal before Easter Term, there were 742 cases in arrear; in 1828, there were 588; in 1829, there were 853; and in 1830, on the same day, the first seal before Easter Term, there were 655 causes in arrear. In other words, there were parties anxiously praying to have their cases heard, but it was not in the power of the Court to hear them; and, at the end of the term, 655 causes were left undecided. When he made this statement be was sure that there must be a general feeling in the House as to the necessity of making some alteration in the system. The Vice- Chancellor was proceeding yesterday, the last day on which he sat, with causes that had been entered on his paper in January and February, 1829. Some causes had been set down for further directions in Easter Term, 1830. How were those cases situated which were thus se t d own f or hearing ? 1 Why, they stood at the bottom of a list of 265 causes, which must be cleared off before tbose furth:r diree, tions set down in Easter Term, 1830, could be heard. He was quite sure that, taking one case with another, the delay in Chancery was not less than a year and a quarter, though every thing might be ready for proceeding. Fif teen months must elapse, in cases affecting the property of orphans or widows, before their causes deittld lie heard. These facts in themselves consti tuted a sufficient reason to induce the House te apply some remedy as speedily as possible. The question was, whether there were not objections to the remedy proposed ; namely, the appointment o an additiOnal Judge, which overbore the advantage• anticipated from such an alteration ? He was, in the first instance, met with a preliminary objection of a personal nature, which was, that in 1828 a mo tion similar to the present was made, and he had opposed it. Now the fact was, as his Hon. Friend (Mr. M. A. Taylor) had stated, no motion for a fourth Judge was made in 1828. 11is Hon. Friend at that time moved for a separation of the bankruptcy jurisdiction from Chancery. But Government alone did not oppose that proposition. The Hon, and Learned Gentleman, then Member. for \Yinchilsea, (Mr. Brougham) opposed it, and expressed a strong opinion that the time had riot arrived when such a general proposition could be entertained. He (Sir R. Peel) at that period, wisfied for some temporary arrangement by which the arrear of business in Chan cery might be kept down. He, however, depre cated the custom of referring to former speeches; and he would claim for himself on that occasion, end on all others, a perfect right to decide, under exist ing circumstances, as to what course it might be best to pursue.—(Hear, hear.) He did not, at the time referred to, oppose the extension of the num ber of the Judges, nor could he, for the motion of his Hon. Friend was of a different nature. The first objection to the appointment of a new Judge was, that the arrear of business was daily diminishing, and therefore that a fourth Judge was not necessary The Hon. and Learned Member for Kircudbright, whose vote he relied on, declared that he would support the measure if it could be shown that the arrears were not diMinished. Now he could readily prove that they were not reduced. There were on the Vice-Chancellor's list, on the Ist day of Trinity Term, 353 causes: 13 causes had since been disposed of, and thirty-two had been since en tered. In the Rolls' Court on the first day of Trinity term, there were 305 causes in arrear; fifty causes had since been disposed of by the Master of the Roils, and seventy new causes had been entered. Here certainly there was any thing but a diminution of arrears. Now, he should like to know why they should always depend on the continuance of the health of those who filled judicial situations. He feared that the continued permanency of efforts to get through a vast deal of business was often at tended with mischievous effects. He doubted much the propriety of taxing to the utmost the abilities and labours of men in legal or of situations. It was unwise to expect from Ministers of the Crown, or from judicial functionaries, application to business for fifteen or sixteen hours a-day. Such a course prevented them from acquiring those general attain ments, the possession of which was very important. Another objection to the appointment of a new Judge was, that it would increase the number of appeals; and allusion was made, in support of that argument, to the Vice-Chancellor's Court; but he would contend that the benefit derived from the for mation of that Court, greatly overbalanced any in convenience to which it gave rise. It was next said that the appointment of an additional Judge would degrade the Lord Chancellor—that it would convert him into a Jack Rugby. A speech of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, in 1813, was such an answer to his observations respecting a Chancellor's ordi nary, a Chancellor's deputy, and a Jack Rugby, in 1830, that he (Sir It. Peel) did wish that he had so able a speech on his side. Then the question came to this,—was not this a case for the adoption of the present measure in the absence of any other ? Let some other be proposed, let there be some counter-proposition; but if there be none, let not the house prevent Ministers from submitting this measure of imperfect indeed, but practical reform, because it either did not go the full length, or be cause there was no other counter-proposition than a second indefinite inquiry. His views were in favour of gradual reform of the Court of Chancery; those reforms would facilitate furth e r ref orms , an d diminish in the mean time the arrears of the Court of Chan cery. He hoped that the House would not permit a preliminary motion to interfere with this measure; and he should now more, as an amendment, " that the order of the day for the second reading of the Bill for an additional Judge in the Court of Chan cery be now read." Mr. BROUGHAM began by cuing, that he should endeavour to state succinctly and plainly his sentiments upon this important question. The object of his Hon. and Learned Friend's motion was to bring this question to the test of inquiry, by pro posing an inquiry into this important measure fur the reform of the Court of Chancery. A plausible objection had been raised against this inquiry, by alleging that inquiries had already taken place. But since the inquiry of 1811, and since the inquiry of 1824, new circumstances had occurred, new facts had arisen : there had been a change in the Court and in the state of things, and therefore, in spite of those inquiries, and of the bulky volumes of reports which had been held up by the Right Hon. Gentle man Ivith a view of casting ridicule upon and dis crediting inquiry, enough had occurred since to alter the case entirely, and at all events to induce the House to investigate, before they rushed heed lessly into the first proposition that had neon made for Chancery reform, and the only one that had proceeded from the Lord Chancellor, in redemption of the pledge he had given in 1827, on accepting the ' Great Seal, when, on the faith of his pledge, he asked the House of Lords to give him time. The pledge had been solemnly given in these remarkable words—" Give me but a little time ; this is the first season, this is the first Session ; give me but time, and in the face of Parliament, of the country, of the suitors, and of the practitioners of the Court, I pro mise, in the next Session of Parliament, that I will mature and perfect a measure, which shall secure" (he quoted his Noble and Learned Friend's own words), " shall secure the despatch of all Chancery business, regularly, faithfully, and accurately." The Noble and Learned Lord had had not one, but three Sessions, and his pledge was in the act of being ful filled. In redemption of his pledge, in fulfilment of his promise, no reform had been excogitated by him, no changes had been deliberated upon, there had been no manifestation of those beautiful talents of his, which had been so loudly eulogized by the Hon. Member for Durham ; there had been no bendieg of the understanding with all the freshness of a man young in years, and still younger in his hitdi office, except some changes made in a dark corner of the Court, by which certain persons were to be remunerated not by fees, but by a fixed salary, whether they did their duty or not.—(llcar.) There had been no changes in the essential part of the Court, in what was the very sink of delay, the very storehouse of abuses, All that the Lord Chancellor proposed was this--," Favour me by appointing another journeyman Judge, in order that I may do nothing, and be enabled to hold the Great Seal, and receive the emoluments of my office, with out executing the duties thereunto belonging.",,el (Loud cries of " Hear.")—He (Nlr. B,rc,ugham)l was under these circumstances ;.ailed upon, for he, too, had given a pledge when the Noble and Learned Lord had assumed his office; he (Mr. Brougham) had thought he could trust to the powers of the Noble and Learned Lord, to his industry, to. his sense of duty, and at al! events to.his ambition, and that these afforded sufficient security that he would be an active and diligent, certainly not an indolent Judge, making the woolsack, as it was the highest post of professional emolument—not a bed for repose and slumber, but as it had been made by his learned predecessors before him, a place of duty, a place of judgment, a place where the business of suitors was alone attended to. He (Air. Brougham) confessed lie had s.iffered some disappointment; but it would be his own fault if he added to the mistake into which he had been betrayed that of supplying the deficiencies of the Noble and Learned Lord, by voting away the money of the people of England to pay another deputy.—(Gear, hear.)—As to the ar rears, of which so touch had been said, there were positively none ; it was a delusion; it was a mere fal- lacy ; it was a " Midsummer Night's Dream," quite es baseless, but not half tee entertaining. There were not so many arrears in the Chancery Courts as the Court of King's Bench, or even the Court of Ex chequer, that delicious spot which, at this end of the Session, and at this hour of the morning (half-past twelve), it was delightful to think of—that blessed &ace of rest, where no business is known but that of taking salary ;—where attention is never taxed, Cor scarcely an argument occurred to interrupt the serenity of its stillness;—where a Judge can be caught sitting as seldom vs a partridge ; for no , 00ner is he down than he is up again --(Laughter) —where no change is known--no difference of times or seasons —except that of wearing a red cloak at one time, and a doublet with out fur at another: he could prove by a parity of reasoning that even the Court of Exche quer was overwhelmed with the pressure of busi ness and arrears which they could not get up.— (A laugh.)—There had been an entry of no less than 15 revenue causes in the space of a fortnight ; the Court had tried only ten, and could not keep down this heavy arrear of business, although the . [ion. and Learned Attorney-General and the lion. and Learned Solicitor-General knew how the reve nue business bad been reduced the last year or two. —(A laugh.)—ln that blessed place of rest there were arrears, although the business of the revenue exhibited a descending series, and would probably reach zero, unless it became a negative quantity, and the Court did, not merely nothing, but worse than nothing. But he had b een to ld b y his lion, and Learned Friend, his successor in the borough of Winchelsea (Mr. Williams), whose speed in run ri:ng away from abuses when they were found was as remarkable as his zear in finding them, but who seemed now to be tired of attacking them, that im pediments were thrown in the way of this measure. His Hon. and Learned Friend and himself had surely changed sides since he (Mr. Brougham) was Member for Winchelsea ;. for he (Mr. Williams) stated that all.his opposition was founded in cruelty as well as sophistry; that we ought not to tax judicial persons beyond their powers; that this diminution of the arrears wall merely temporary and transient, owing entirely to the extraordinary exertions of two equity Judges; that was, the extra ordinary exertions of the Master of the Rolls in sit ting after breakfast in s t ea d o f a f ter di nner—sitting six hours instead of something less than four, and devoting these two hours to heavy business instead of disporting himself.--(A laugh.) —He agreed with his lion, and Learned Friend, that it was of importance that men of liberal minds should not be taxed like galley-slaves. He should be the first man to lift his voice in favour of a measure which should afford to the great seal or the deputy opportunities to enjoy needful relaxation and repose. But would not the Vice-Chancellor laugh to scorn any one who should commiserate him as a per. son too hardly worked, and as incapable of keeping down the arrears of his Court ? Surely the Vice- Chancellor bore no marks in his person of excess of labour. With respect to his Noble and Learned Friend, the Lord Chancellor, he (Mr. Brougham) thought he saw an arch look on his face, when he was told that lie was supposed to be overwhelmed wit h official duties, and was an object of compassion to the idlers of the metropolis, as if incessantly sur rounded with musty bills, or buried in the dirty re cesses of his library.—(A laugh.)—Gentlemen might laugh, but this was no matter of jest; the gist of the argument was as to the necessity of Anew Judge: the answer to this was, that there were enough Judges already. 'rile reply to this was, " You are killing them with work, and giving them no time for recreation ;" the rejoinder to this was, " These persons have their recreation, they are not over-worked, they are objects of envy, not of com passion," and they would laugh to scorn any one who should tell them to their face what was said io their absence.—(Hear, hear.)--These were facts and arguments; no jests; the ridicule attending them was the fault of those who conjured up these base less visions, these Pucks and Robin Gooctfellotos, instead of reason and sound argument. The Lord Chancellor said " appoint me a permanent Judge." This was just as if, when it was difficult to get a load up a hill, we were not content to borrow is horse, but must buy one and keep him all the days of his life, when broken-winded or worn out. It was useless to say, " Oh, but we have got to the top of the hill; two excellent horses have dragged us three-quarters of a mile, and there they sit smiling on the top of the ascent." " Ah," it was said in reply, " but there may be another ascent for what we know, and these two horses are very much fatigued." This question was not important in itself only, it had ramifications which made it more important still. It was vain to imagine, how great soever might be the abuses of the Court of Chan cery, arid the mischiefs those abuses entailed, that if a remedy were applied, and it were made the most perfect tribunal that the wit of num could devrse,—if the proposition of the honour able arid Learned Member for Winchelsea, and for drawing back, as he properly termed it, to the Courts of Common Law, a part of the business ef the Chancery,—if that great reform, or revolution, or restoration, rather, of the Court of Chancery, were to be accomplished,—still there linnet be busi ness for such a Court : as long as there were trusts, and infants, and guardians to be watched,—to say nothing of executors, because much of the Court's jurisdiction as to legacies found its way to the Com mon Law Courts,--ebut matters of account and ad ministration, as long as these existed it was a vair. imagination to suppose that the Court of Chancery coul st is the i d ta o i t‘ f il e po, t:l i e t te e n or s l ,t i c i h g e teh a h s ja e e t s u t (tih t a i o m ee s p h, e o i g x r t 10: theinc e t b t:o . te a l Fd ; t ti o .roiie;s thesai profession otheroi twas f prac shoal be held by a Ju ,tge ot'sit )er s r t e a c t t io ly n of t competentthat C o Court fill the office. Then was it possible for him (Mr. Brougham) to regard, without feelings of jealousy and re,pugnanco, a measure of which he saw that the consequence—not immediate, for he did not pledge himself so precisely to time that a person might say, " there, the day has arrived, and your prophecy is not fulfilled ;" but the natural and in evitable tendency would be, to convert the office, of Lord Chancellor into a judicial sinecure. He .did not say that he would not hear causes, but they would ho appeals only. He would be a mere Judge of appeals, and would cease to be what he was in tended to be by the Constitution—the head of a pro fession of which he ought to be the ornament. A Judge who was only a Judge of appeals was doubtless an ho nourable Judge; but would a Lord Chancellor posses* any authority if he were a mere Judge of appeals No; lie would be a Judge without the authority of a Judge; decisionsin subordinate Courts would be vainly appealed from, and the Rouse of Lords would lose its authority. How could it be supposed that las would ever be able to grapple with the body of the, question ? o r how could it be expected that he could possibly have due confidence in himself ? He would venture to say that out of 20 causes of appeal the. Lord Clhancellor would affirm 19. The same ttie. trust of self would follow him higher still, it would accompany him to the Woolsack ; and thus the se curity of all rights, the protection of the subject, the power of appellate jurisdiction, would exist only iu !tame, and no longer in reality. It had leer said that in 1811 Sir Samuel Romilly, Sir John Leach, and Mr. Canning, had all held the same language, and thus demonstrated that the greatest and wisest men were sufficiently fallible, when onc e th ey ad ventured to prophecy beyond' the sphere of their knowledge, as 41 their predictions with reepect to the future had been set at nought by the result.—, lie, bewever, could not help thinking that all had happened precisely as those illaatrious persons had foretold, when he considered the growing tendency to an increase of appeals. Exalted and numerous as were the merits of his late lamented friend Sir Samuel Romilly, and strong as were his claims to respect from the profession, he was entitled to pre-. eminent praise on this ground, above all others.— He had said that now thut there was a Master of the Rolls, no administration could intrust the great seal to any person, in whom both Government and the profession could not thoroughly confide. 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