The Sun. — London, England, 1830-03-19 00:00:00

County meeting there, complaining of distress. It was remarkable that all these county meetings had given rise to tl.e question of Reform ; and he, therefore, thought that if the Government wanted to get rid of that question they had better grant the inquiry. —(Hear, hear.)—The peti tion from Manchester had not "mentioned the subject of Reform, because it was an understanding with the 80.- roughreeve that that question should be avoided. In the town of Birmingham, however, the question had been most seriously agitated; 'and he understood that he should in a few days be entrusted with a petition from that place to present to their Lordships. But, besides this, a Political Union had taken place in that town, and among its members were to be found men of great knowledge, talent, and influence : this Union had its correspondence, its subscriptioni, and its fund, and the burthen of its song was Reform in Parliament. The Noble Earl had said that the people were still inclined to look up to the Parliament for redress; but he believed that they were getting tired of that—(Hear, hear) — and if Parliament persisted in taking no notice of their petitions, they would soon cease altogether.—(Hear.) —For himself he was a Reformer—a Radical Reformer. —(Murmurs.)—lf there were any reproach attaching to that title, he was open to it, for he had long been a Radical Reformer—(Hear)—and he had become so from the con viction that the voice of the people was not attended to in the Horse of Commons. It had been said that the Go vernment did attend to the wishes of the people; and that they had shown it lately by the course they had adopted with respect to the taxation of the country : as far as that went he approved of the taxes that had been taken off, and of the manner in which it had been done. But that was not sufficient. The necessities of the people were such, that much mere was necessary. But there was a promise of more being done next year ; now, if the Ministers could so far anticipate their power, why not give that relief now? If it was only to be done next year, the people would suffer in the meanwhile, and the premised relief would be of little service to them. What had fallen from the Noble Earl (Bathurst) appeared to him to be as much like seconding the motion as possible.—(Hear, hear.)—He re membered a line somewhere which said, 6 . My wound's so great, because it is so small." But the argument of the Noble Earl appeared to be, that because there were so many wounds open—because there were so many classes of the people suffering, and enduring privations—therefore the inquiry would be interminable, and it would be better not to go into it. The Noble Earl, however, admitted that the effect out of doors would be, that Noble Lords would be compelled to lower their rents. Earl BATHURST—He never used the term "compel," at all. Earl RADNOR—He did not intend to lay any stress upon the term " compel," though he believed that they would be compelled to lower their rents—(A Laugh)—and that not a bit the less for their inquiry. He thought that the arguments and facts which had been ad duced were sufficient to justify a call for inquiry, and he should therefore vote for the motion of the Noble Duke, as the Noble Lords connected with his Majesty's Govern.. ment appeared to act on the principle that matters had reached their worst, and that they must now get better. The Earl of ROSSLYN—To think that his Noble Friend's speech was in the spirit of seconding the Noble Duke's motion was the strongest possible misconception of what had fallen from him. So far from saying that a greater variety of grievances existed, his Noble Friend had only said that the extent and number of the evils set forth in the motion were so great as to render inquiry impracti cable. The motion of the Noble Duke embraced every possible interest ; it required the solution of the most dif ficult question in political economy, viz. what was the true effect and amount of indirect taxation, and the wages and situation of the labourer, whether agricultural or manu facturing ? This was a question of so broad an extent, that it was impossible for one Committee to embrace the whole of its details. The Noble and learned Lord had said, that be should approve of a Select Committee if it were limited in its extent and duration ; but a Committee on such a subject would be limited in neither—it would be interminable. They had the admission of the Noble Earl, that, to do justice to the case, it would be necessary to take the matter up part by part. He did not think that any practical good .could come of it even in that way ; and if not, it would prove no satisfaction to the country. But even supposing that the Committee were granted, and distress were proved to the hearts' con tent of the Noble Lords opposite, he should like to know in what manner they would agree even to the settling of the order of proceeding. The Noble Earl would be for the unlimited issue of paper and the ex tinction of all metallic currency, till they arrived at the prosperous situation of another Bank restriction. While they were revelling in all these advantages, another Noble Lard would cry, " filthy rags," and cry out against the detestable fraud of robbing the creditor of his just rights for the purpose of relieving the debtor. The Noble Baron would propose no such thing as the alteration of the cur rency or an equitable adjustment : his remedy would be the corn laws and the subversion of all monopolies. The Noble Marquis would recommend the adoption of a silver standard, while the Noble Earl opposite would only ac cede to it on the terms of its being received at the present price of silver. Their Lordships had been told by the Noble Earl opposite that they might obtain relief by altering the standard. The Earl of ROSEBERRY begged the Noble Earl's Pardon ; but he had never asserted that a silver st a ndard ought to be adopted, as silver was now comm.]. He was aware of the difference between the old and the present silver standard, but what he desired was that silver and gold should be the standard currency. The Earl of ROSSLYN (in continuation) had not ap plied his observations to the Noble Earl, but to the other Noble Earl near him (Earl Carnarvon), who he was happy to see, acknowledged his own child.—(A laugh.)— He proposed a silver standard, coining the pound of silver into sixty-six shillings ; and such a standard would, no doubt, be a relief, but it would, at the same time, defraud the public and private creditor as much as a direct altera tion in the standard, though not, perhaps, to so great an extent. If anything of that kind IN ere to be done, how ever, he should prefer doing it openly and fairly, stating, like other bankrupts, that we could not pay our debts ; and, like them, cheating our creditors to a certain extent. Eat their Lordships must consider that any alteration of that kind affected not only the public creditor, but private creditors. The Noble Lord who supported the Committee seemed to have no determined object in view. Moreover, he should object to the Committee, that the conflict of opinions amongst those who proposed it, did not allow him to think it possible that they could suggest an advan tageous remedy. The subjects proposed for discussion, also, were very numerous. They were to inquire into the causes of distress, and the influence of taxation ; they were, likewise, to suggest a commutation of tithes; they were to enter into all possible subjects ; but if they were to m dee suggestions about a commutation of tithes, why not inquire into the revenues of the Church ? But the Committee was to do more than this ; it was to suggest means for the management of private property, and advise landlords, how to cultivate their estates. He would ask their Lordships, if they went into the Committee with such various topics before them, and with the conflicting opinions of Noble Lords, if they were to advise landed gentlemen, and inquire into the means of putting an end to monopolies, if various other topics were to be included, what possible practical good could they expect? He ob jected to the Committee, that it could not possibly do any good; it could not give any relief; and the mere appoint ment of the Committee would add to the difficulties of the country, and cause fluctuations that could not be otherwise than mischievous. He believed that much of the difficul ties of the country arose from the uncertainty of public affairs, from the changes which had taken place, and from the apprehension of further changes, which tended to pre vent a fixed settlement and kept the people from entering into speculations. In 1826, the 1/. notes were suppressed, though he believed they had nothing to do with the dan gers of that period. The Bill to suppress those notes had done mischief, by stopping the credit which had been created by those notes, while most of the banks it ap peared were solvent, for out of 165 which had stopped, upwards of 100 had paid all demands in full. But whe ther the measure of 1926 were good or evil, it wits the measure of his Noble and Learned Friend. In his opinion, that measure was uncalled for, and he was particularly glad that it had not beea extended to Scotland. But though he believed that it was unwise to put an end to the one pound notes, he was not of opinion that restoring them would make things any better. The distress might be traced to a breach of confidence between different classes, which had separated the farmer from the banker, and prevented the former from obtaining sufficient accom modation. Changes were made, and more were threatened, the effect of which was that people were disposed to re strict their operations as much as possible. The agitation of the corn laws was one of the measures which created uncertainty. He thought some parts of those laws bad; but to change them would be more mischievous than keeping them; In all matters of general l eg i s l a ti on affecting the interests of numerous classes, certainty and security, with stability, were better even than improve ment. While there was a probability of change, every man was uncertain what to do. At present there was more capital in the country than could find employment ; yet land in the market could find no purchasers, and was ever' below the value of the Funds. The difficulty was solved by know n that some - capitalists held their capital, expecting a change which would enable them to employ it more advan tageously, while others feared a change for the worse. As long as the corn laws and free trade were subjects of agi tation, the people, fearing change, kept their stocks as low as possible. It was because the appointment of a Commit tee would open a wide door to the expectation of change, that he was inclined to oppose it. The Noble Baron oppo site would advert, in the Committee, to free trade ; and the Noble Earl would wish to consider the Bank Charter, with various other things; and, as long as the subjects were liable to doubt, there was a disposition to suspend operations, greatly to the injury of the country. Looking at the discordant views entertained by Noble Lords who supported the motion, they agreeing to nothing, he could only consider the motion intended to express dissatis faction and discontent with his Majesty's Government. That was the only point on which all the supporters of the motion agreed.—(Hear, hear.)—As one of his Majesty's servants, he must say that if Noble Lords had anything to accuse them of, he wished that they would bring it openly forward, and then it might be answered. Ministers then stood on very favourable ground; they had just reduced taxation to tl.e utmost extent consistent with the effici ency of the establishments of the country.—(Hear.)— Assurances also had been given that further examination should be made if it were possible to improve the means of collecting the revenue, and diminish the expence of our Colonial Establishments. A great deal had been already done to the former ; and Commissioners forming part of the Government, were about to enquire into the latter ; and they would bring such an inquiry sooner to an end than could be done by a Committee of that House. Why, it was asked, was not this done immediately ? Only because it was reasonable that time should be allowed to look into the matter, before making alterations. He was sorry to hear the Noble Earl say that the country had no confidence in his Majesty's Government, ashe had collected from his speech ; and he also collected from the Noble Earl's speech, that the motion was only intended to blame the Administration, and could not lead to any practical good. With respect to what was said of the distress, it could not be either so intense or of such long duration as it had been represented. During the last year, for ex ample, the consumption has been equal to that of the year before ; while the consumption of coffee had increased. The consumption of sugar had not been diminished, while the consumption of British spirits had increased 2,000,000 gallons. These fast proved, he thought, that the distress was not so extreme and poignant as some gentlemen re presented it. Our exports of cotton bad increased 30,000,000 of yards, and of woollens 8,000,000 yards. It was probable that a large profit was made on these ex ports, but it was not, at the same time, probable that the merchants and manufacturers carried on their trade with a loss. He hail heard, with some surprise, some Noble Lords blame the irruption of the Irish into this country. He knew no distinction between English and Irish, nor could be listen to any proposition founded on making such a distinction. Noble Lords who challenge the irruption, as it was called, of Irish labourers into this coun try. seemed, however, ready to take advantage of it.—(No, no, from several Noble Peers.)—Was it no advantage, then, to the farmer? If it were not why did he employ them ? There was no compul sion. In fact, however, the farmer liked cheap labour, and sometimes they were necessary to get the harvest in. In many places the harvest could not be got in with out their assistance. Some complaints were made of the expence of sending them hack, but it should be re membered that their coming here had been facilitated for the advantage of those counties which complained the most. English landlords had more reason, he thought, to complain of Irish produce coming—which had gone to a great extent—than Irish labourers.—(Hear, hear.) — This was, however, not an evil, but a great benefit—a great blessing; and one of the great advantages obtained by the measure of last year.—(Hear, hear.)—Whatever tended to make English capitalists invest capital in Ireland, should always have his support ; and it would confer a great benefit on both countries.—(Hear, hear, hear.) — Nearly five million quarters of corn had been imported from Ireland during the last and the present year; and such a large importation was a proof of the improving condition of Irelund. He would not consent to any measure which would be likely to prevent the improvement of that country. Looking at the motion as involving no practical good, he should give his vote against going into a Committee. The Ea!' of CARNARVON only wished to make an observation on what had fallen from the Noble Earl with reference to himself. A few days ago he certainly had proposed a silver standard, and he did it partly from think ing that the present standard was so completely an experi mental one, that we could not permanently adhere to it. What he wanted was that silver, not gold, should have been made the standard of the currency. As far as a con current standard of both metals was concerned, one must be subordinate to the other; and he would have had silver, allowing gold to pass at an agio. He would also say one word on the subject of the small notes. He attributed the distress—which was dif f erent from that of former years, inasmuch as it affected both farmers and manufacturers— to both classes being deprived of their usual home market, which grew, in his opinion, out of the distresses of the agri culturists, caused by the alteration relative to the small notes. He had anticipated in 1826 these results, and had then pointed out the danger to credit, and the general dis tress which must ensue, if their Lordships put an end to the small notes. As he had then anticipated also, the people had been reduced to paupers. He believed that there were more small notes in circulation than the Mini sters thought, and that their measure was more sweeping in its consequences than they had expected. He believed that, under our present circumstances, the greatest boon the Government could bestow on the country would be to enter into a negociation with the Bank of England to give up the Charter, and thus enable us to establish a banking system on a solid foundation like the Chartered Banks of Scotland. Thinking that it was due to the country and to the feelings of the people not to turn a deaf ear to their complaints, he should vote for going into a Committee. On the Noble Earl resuming his seat, several Noble Lords rose to address their Lordships, but Earl GOWER was called for, and he proceeded to state, that he shoal,' not approve of the motion for a Committee, unless, contrary to what lie anticipated, the Government should not prosecute the efficient measures they had an nounced. The Earl of DARNLEY opposed the motion for in. quiry, because he did not think it likely to lead to ar.y use ful result. The distress he had always maintained to be partial. Ile believed it to be decreasing, and he thought the inquiry would only raise expectations which must be disappointed. Lord HOLLAND thought it the more necessary to ex plain the vote he intended to give in support of the motion, because he sa.v that two Noble Friends who consented to the motion of the Noble Earl, were opposed to the motion of the Noble Duke. The Noble Earl, indeed, who spoke last in the debate (Lord Darnley) had taken credit to him self for having proposed, with respect to the poor of Ire land, a measure much the same as that which was now re quired for the poor of England; and it was strange that lie should be indisposed to grant that to the claims of the poor of the one country which he denied to the poor of the other. Still stranger was the argument advanced by the Noble Privy Seal (Rosslyn), when lie described the painful consequences of entering into inquiry on the state of the poor of England. The Noble Privy Seal said, God forbid that I should attempt to draw any distinctions between the people of the one country and the people of the other ; but he could not allow expectations to be raised which must be disappointed, and feelings to be excited which could not be gratified. The Noble l'rivy Seal thought, forsooth, that the people of England were of a temperament too sanguine and too inflammable to be tempted with the prospect which had just been opened to the poor of Ireland.—(Hear, and a laugh.)—The people of Ireland might have their expec tations raised, for their imaginations were not easily excited; but it would be dangerous, according to the Noble Privy Seal, to trust the people of England in the same situation. He was thankful to the Government for what it had done in the way of a reduction of taxation, and for the inquiries which it had in stituted ; but he was one of those who thought that the Parlia ment of England was bound to do a something too. He was not a Radical Reformer, although he had been thought to have opi nions which savoured a little of Reform : but neither he nor any other Noble Reformer had ever used such strong arguments for Reform as those used by the two Noble Lords on the Treasury Bench (Lords Itosslyir and Bathurst,. For what was the al gu ment of these Noble Lords ? Why, that the forms of Parlia ment provided for cases of inquiry into public distress were totally useless • that the forms of Parliament became useless just in pro portion'to the greatness of the distress which they were called on to inquire into.—(Hear.) --It had been contended that in a Corn. mittee men of different opinions must sit, and different questi .ns must be proposed. And why not ? Their Lordships had just appointed a Committee to inquire into the affairs of India, which was studiously composed of men of every party—which contained men of every colour.—(A laugh.)—lt might be very true that various questions would be brought under the consideration of the Committee, and it was particularly said that the curret.cy would form a subject of discussion. It might be so; but the Committee was required to consider the cause of the evils which afflicted the poor. It was their duty to ascertain what that cause was; and it might be recollected that in a motion of this kind with respect to Ireland, four years ago, no such variety of subject was inquired into as that which Noble Lords seemed to dread on the present occa. sion. But even if it were so, this was a popular Govern ment. The people desired an inquiry. Thee had a right to the inquiry ; and on a subject where the people felt so strongly, it was the duty of the Government to com ply with their wishes. He knew that it had become the custt~om to address the Crown on such subjects. Per ha G n overnment liked that better. But Addresses had '" n Pee presented . to the Noble Duke at the head of the Govern_ most, Pr"mga consideration of their grievances. He considered addresse s as the signs of bad times, as symptoms of inis • chiefs which it was the duty of Parliament to correct. There might he some person s who held good the adage, " Ornnla bene acta negro Marte agentur."—(Hear, (hear, and a laugh.)—He, however, liked a something to be done by the Parliament of Eng land ; and it was to show that that Parliament still possessed some power he was, among other reasons, anxious for the present inquiry. He knew that the Government were engaged in inqui. ries themselves. He applauded them for it ; but there were some things to which he thought the inquisitorial powers of Parlia ment should solely be applied; and to which it was necessary that power should be applied, in order to show that, as the Representa tives of a popular Government, they sympathised with the suffer. ings, and felt for the wishes of the people. It was for these rea sons that he wished to apply the inquisitorial power which his Sovereign had invested hint with, to an examination of the causes of the distress ; and he therefore gave his full assent to the motion now before their Lordships.—(Hear.) Lord ELLENBO ROUGH agreed with the Noble Baron that inquiries generally were best conducted by Parliament ; but he thought the Noble Baron must be also well aware that there were a great many things better done by the Government than by Par liament. The Government had not arrogated to themselves any power. They had not shown any disposition to avoid the respon sibility of the measures they advised; but their objection to this motion was, that it went to promise things which could not be accomplished ; and that it must end,lif granted, in gross delusion, to the people. The Noble Baron (Lord Holland) had truly stated that there were a great number of opinions represented in the Committee on the affairs of India; but then that Committee was appointed to consider but one subject. The Committee sought for row was intended to deal with many. The one was to apply to facts—the other was to be occupied with conjectures and opinions ; and although he had sat on many Committees, he never recollected any, save one, in which the inquiry into opinions produced any result. That inquiry was conducted by the Noble Baron himself; and he must say that that Noble Lord's inquiries on the subject of the opinions entertained with respect to the Athanasian Creed, although not very bene ficial to the country, was yet attended with a success and a triumphs which he had never expected to witness. His objection to the Committee was, however, that every man Wilo entered it would have a proposition for some change in the political condi. tion of the country. He had taken the trouble to make a sum. 'nary of some of the subjects upon which Committees had been sought for during the last nine months, and every one of which he was confident would be brought before this Committee, if the motion was agreed to. He found among them agricultural and manufacturing distress, poor laws, vagrants, game laws, county rates, exportation of machinery, combination laws, parish rates, emigration, parochial settlements, friendly societies, and Irish vagrants. These were but a portion of the subjects which the range of the political economist would bring before the Com mittee, and the inquiries into which would, if carried into effect, last longer than the life of the oldest individual among them. This was not a 11. It had been proposed lately that every mem ber of a Committee should bring a well-informed friend along with him to assist him in putting questions. Suppose then a Committee of thirty-one Lords and thirty-one friends proposing questions on all the subjects that he had mentioned, who could venture to predict the termination of their inquiries ? Pamphlets had been published on three of the subjects—Corn Laws, Cur rency, and the Poor Laws. They could not do less than examine the writers of these pamphle - s first, and they were just thirty two in number during the last twelve months. On the Corn Laws fifteen, on the Currency seven, and on the Poor Laws ten. These persons must be examined; and as the Currency seemed to be one of the principal objects of inquiry, he thought that Mr. Tooke's pamphlet, called The Currency free from all Mystery," would be a good thing to begin with. Considering as he did, that the inquiry would only lead to delusion, and that the agitation of the currency question in particular would tend to disorganize the whole frame of that portion of the population connected with agriculture, he would give it a decided negative. He could not conclude without observing, that a motion of this kind, brought on just 48 hours after such extensive reduc tions as had been announced by his Majesty's Government, was peculiarly ungracious. Noble Lords who supported it could have no hope that the inquiry would produce anything but mischief; and he thought that such a motion, having no public object, should be rejected by every Noble Lord who wished to preserve the character and respectability of Parliament. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE protested against the language of the Noble Lord with respect to Committees ; and declared his opinion, that the Noble Lord, in his language respecting Com mittees, and in the expression of his opinion that Parliament did not meet to inquire into the public grievances by Committees, but to converse with each other on the subject, gave proofs of be ing a greater Radical Reformer than any Member of either side of the House. He thought the theories of the Noble Lord and the Noble Privy Seal would not be so much attended by the consequences they stated, as by consequences totally destructive of the constitutional power of the House; for, if he understood their arguments at all, they meant this—that they were only to go into Committees of Inquiry when all men were agreed on the subject of the evil which was to be inquired into.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.)—They opposed the motion because they thought it would lead to delusion. He supported it because he thought it was in a practical form, and likely to lead to a practical purpose. lle had opposed the motion of the Noble Earl (Stanhope) because he thought it embraced too wide a field, and he stated so at the time; but every one who knew the manly character of the Noble Duke who brought forward the motion, must be sensible that there was nothing lurking behind it which had not been openly avowed ; and he approved of the motion still further, because he thought the absence of all party feelings rendered the present a time peculiarly favourable for the consideration of such subjects. It had been said that they required stability in their institutions. and not the changes which were contemplated by the motion, Stability in what? Stability in the present wretched condition of the poor ? Was there a man with a heart in his bosom who wished the present wretched condition of the population of the country to continue unaltered ?—(Hear, hear, hear.) — He would take leave to trouble their Lordships on this subject with a communication he had received from Dorsetshire—a county not affected by any sudden changes, and therefore pre senting a better picture of the present state of the poor of this country. In places free from those circumstances which produced temporary prosperity and depression, the writer stated, that out of twenty-four parishes, there were twelve in a similar situation. That in each of these there were one-third more labourers than the land could support. That these superabundant labourers were supported by a little labour, and by a little relief. That the middle-aged men, with their families, were employed at low wages, and that the young and able-bodiedi were allowed Is. ed„ per week. The overseers justified this on the plea that they wished to drive the young paupers from the parish; but the re stilt of it was, that Dorchester gaol was filled with young men committed for petty offences; that the farmers giving a mini mum of wages were obliged to be content with a minimum of labour; that the land was badly tilled; and that instead of the young and able-bodied being employed, they lived in idleness, while the old and infirm were compelled to close a life in labour. The Noble Marquis then expressed a hope that Ministers would still further reduce taxation, and by reducing the duty on suga r increase the consumption. A very slight reduction formerly had added one-fifth to the consumption. When it was recollected that the consumption of each individual in England through the year was only twenty-two and a half pounds, and in Ireland only four and a half, it would be at once seen how great an improvement might be produced, and how much that consumption might be increased by a slight reduction of the price. As a proof of this, he mentioned that Lord Liverpool reduced the assessed taxes and the duties on spirits in 1821., and the returns then shewed a revenue of 3,528,00/ a while in 18'29, after all these reductions, the revenue was 3,749,0004, being several hundred pounds greater after the reduction. He recommended, therefore, still further reductions, but he recommended them to be adopted with caution, and that caution was to be obtained by inquiry. The Noble Marquis con. eluded by expressing his determination to vote for the Commit. tee, because he thought it could not fail to suggest something for the general benefit. The Duke of WELLINGTON concurred with the Noble Marquis in the opinions he expressed respecting the practice of Parliament in directing inquiries by means of Committees. This was the practice, and Government were disposed to adhere to it; but the Noble Marquis had omitted to state that it was also the inviolable practice for a mover to state specifically the object of his motion. When that practice was departed from, and when he found each Noble Lord who took part in the debate stating each a different object which they had in view by sup. porting it, he certainly thought the Government not justified in giving their consent. His Noble Friend, the mover of the Corn. mittee, stated his intention to inquire into the state of the labour.. ing poor, and the manner in which they were affected by taxa tion. Now, it was well observed by his other Noble Friend, the President of the Council, that there was not a single portion of the Government which might not be brought under the consi deration of a Committee inquiring into these two subjects. In deed every Noble Lord who supported the motion seemed to have a different object. He had counted twenty different im_ portant subjects which Noble Lords proposed to bring under the consideration of the Committee, including even the question of the management of private property. There were three or four connected with the currency and the coinage—the silver stand ard and the gold standard; and was it to be supposed that they did not intend to go into these questions, or that, if they did not, that they had not some object to be obtained which was cal culated to affect the object of the Government ? It was said that the Right Hon. Gentleman, who granted a M'.tion for a Corn. mittee to inquire into the state of Ireland in the other House, had opposed a motion of the same kind on another occasion. That was not so. The motion alluded to was intended to apply Poor Laws to Ireland, and as the Government was not prepared to give Poor Laws to Ireland, he, as well as the Right Hon. Gentlemen, had then resisted it on the part of the Government. The motion of the Hon. Gentleman who brought forward the subject the other evening was for a specific object, and, there fore, it had been granted. He thought the Noble Marquis had much mistaken the nature of the character of his Noble Friend (Lord Ellenborough), that Noble Lord stated his opinion of the manner in which an inquiry of this kind could be conducted, and the consequences which must flow from it; but the Noble Marquis must have seen enough of his Noble Friend's conduct on Committees, to be satisfied that he had always conducted himself like a Minister who was anxious to do his duty, and to bring the whole subject of inquiry under his consideration. A Noble Lord who supported the Committee, had observed that he did not think it could be expected that relief should be given. If that were the case, why ap. point the Committee. He agreed with that Noble Lord, that no relief could be given. Ministers had, in his opinion, stated the truth in the icing's Speech. They had admitted there was distress. They declared it to be partial, and they cautioned Parliament against the adoption of any sudden or violent remedy. He repeated now, that he was thoroughly con vinced there was great distress in the country ; but that it was not, and had not been general, and that it was gradually subsiding. The Noble Duke then adverted to the large reduction of taxation just announced, which had given satisfaction to many, and called forth the praises of many of their Lordships. They had done no more than their duty in making those reductions ; and if it had been requisite to maintain taxation, instead of to diminish it, the Government would have endeavoured to prevail on Parliament to maintain it with just the same feelings they called upon Parlia ment to assist in relieving it. He believed that the objects of the reduction had been happily chosen, and that they had selected those articles which would take the smallest sum out of the Treasury, and give the greatest relief to the people. It had been stated that other taxes could be reduced. He would not then go into the calculations which satisfied him that the Government could go no further at present. He would only say, that they were determined to reduce every unnecessary expence in every department, hoping thereby to provide fresh resources for a dimi nution of taxation. The Noble Duke concluded by observing, that if the motion had been one to inquire into the poor laws, it would have been worthy of consideration; although, it should be recollected, that they had two or three reports on the subject already laid on their Lordships' table. It should be observed too, that this was a subject on which Pitt, Fox, and Wyndham, and the greatest men of the age, had failed to come to any satis factory conclusion, and that laws of so much importance, varying as they did in every parish, could not possibly be touched with any prospect of success, sinless with the greatest caution, and after the most deliberate inquiry. This was not the time for that inquiry. He would advise them to wait until the return of prosperity, when they could apply themselves to the question with greater attention—with less prejudiced minds, and a better hope of satisfactory result.—(Hear, hear.) Earl STANHOPE contended that the inquiry proposed by his Noble Friend was one of paramount importance, and that no reasons had been advanced why that inquiry ought to be refused. The Noble Duke had done much in reducing taxation, but as no practicable reduction could be of avail without some measure which enabled the country to pay the taxes, that must neces sarily remain. Tile Duke of WELLINGTON and the Earl of ELDON mutually explained, but were not audible below the bar. The Duke of RICHMOND in reply said, I never so much regretted my want of experience in debate, my Lords, as at the present moment ; for I cannot find parliamentary language suf ficiently strong to express the feelings of indignation which I entertain at the speech of the Noble Baron, the President of the Board of Controul If such a speech had been made out of doom, I should have called it an atrocious libel upon the Committees of this House—an atrocious libel upon Parliament—a libel so in flammatory in its nature—a libel so calculated in its character to bring this House of Parliament into disrepute with the people out of doors—in short, a libel altogether so mischievous as, in my opinion, to call for a new enactment, if no law at present exists, of sufficient force to protect Parliament from a repetition of it. But, my Lords, if upon first hearing that speech I was surprised and astounded, Iny utoniannent 50011 merged in the conviction aS that tome confusien of ideas h mead 'Lief ever the mind of the Noble Baron ; and when he 'nly imagined himself to be describing the Committees of th e lv our Lordships' House, in fact he was only throwing open to u he sligfts of the Cabinet, and divulging to your Lordships the manners of office, and the mode of proceeding in the Council Chamber of his Majesty's Ministers. My Lords, lam well acquainted with the great and commanding mind of the Noble Duke at the head of his Majesty's Treasury ; and if provided with proper information, and better ad vised by thosewho are round about him, I know no man more able, and no man more likely, to confer great benefits upon his country. But, my Lords, in the whole course of this night's debate no man has attempted by facts to refute the statement of overwhelming distress. His ;Majesty's Ministers, one after another, have risen to engage in this discussion ; but only to shrink from the con sideration of the real merits of this question, and to have recourse moreover, to those old, hackneyed, and empty assertions of fac tious motives and of disguised designs upon Ministers and their places, on the part of those who support my motion. And I take this occasion to thank my Noble Relation (the Lord President of the Council) for a speech which has been considered by many Noble Lords who followed him in debate, as in matter and argu ment more like the speech of the seconder of my motion, than that of a Minister in oppositionto it. The Noble Lord Privy Seal has said that the distress arises from a general want of con fidence which any inquiry into its causes would, as he says, of necessity aggravate. I say, what confidence can the people have P What security can a starving population feel if Parliament re solves to abandon its duties, and openly declares its determina tion to permit no inquiry into the causes of their misery and decay ? My Lords, I understood the Noble Duke who spoke from the floor (Buckingham) to state that France, Switzerland, and Italy, were, though so slightly taxed, now suffering con. siderable distress. Of this I know nothing. I have not had, per haps, the same opportunities of acquiring information with the Noble Duke; but the Noble Duke also stated, " that the United States of America were in no better condition !! !" My Lords, I hold in my hands a document, which, even at this late hour of the night, I cannot resist quoting to your Lordships. It is the speech of the President of the United States to Congress, at the opening of the Session, and thus he addresses himself to the representatives of the American people :—. The task devolves upon me, under a provision of the Constitution, to present to you as the Federal Legislature of Twenty-four Sovereign States and TWELVE MILLIONS of HAPPY PEOPLE, a view o I our affairs."—Mark, my Lords, " TWELVE MILLIONS of HAPPY PEOPLE" I ! !—Would to God, my Lords, the King of England, from among the whole Twenty Four Millions of his British subjects, could be thought to possess " TWELVE MIL LIONS of HAPPY PEOPLE." For my Lords, how can men who have hearts to feel, be happy, though not perhaps themselves suffering from distress, surrounded by thousands and tens of thousands starving upon twopence halfpenny per day P—Can a man be happy in the midst of such distress, misery, and degra dation ?—My Lords, the first magistrate of the United States, goes on to say, "In communicating with you for the first time it is to me a source of unfeigned satisfaction, calling for mutual gratulation and devout thanks to Providence, that we are at Peace with all mankind, and that our country exhibits the most CHEERING EVIDENCE Of GENERAL WELFARE and PROGRESSIVE IMPROVEMENT." My Lords, in America, they give thanks to Pro vidence for the blessings they enjoy. In England Providence is only permitted to bear the blame of the country's distress. Sure I am the Noble Duke did not wish to misrepresent the state of Ame rica. Misinformed before, he will now, lam confident, admit that he was in error. (No I from the Duke of Buckingham) Then does the Noble Duke mean to say that the speech of the First Magistrate of the United States to Congress, is entitled to no more reliance than speeches which are made elsewhere ? One word more for the Noble Duke. Admitting the severe and growing distress of the county of Bucks, he has disco vered its origin in an unlooked for cause. Inundations of fresh butter, (says he) from Holland, have all this dreadful distress at least in Buckinghamshire to answer for. The new and unprece dented importations by stcami vessels of fresh butter from the Netherlands, has altogether, says the Noble Duke, supplanted the butter of the Vale of Aylesbury at the London breakfast tables of the English nobility and gentry, and so ruined the whole county of Bucks : But, my Lords, when such arguments as these are had recourse to,there is I know no refutation so forcible and convincing as simple facts. I have procured therefore ffirthis purpose the two latest returns of the House of Commons upon the subject. The first gives the quantity of butter imported from the Netherlands in each of the three years ending the sth of January, as under stated : cwts. qrs. lbs. 1826 160,018 0 12 1827 136;779 3 lb 1828 142,658 0 25 Shewing that the importation of the last year as compared with the average of the two preceding years, manifests a diminution, and not that OVERWHELMING increase. The second return gives the value of foreign butter imported in each of four years ending the sth of January, calculated at the official rates of valuation, and is as follows : 1826 X 398,080 18 11 1827 1828 ....... 1829 This return thews that so far from an overwhelming and swelling importation of foreign butter, the importation was, with one single exception, less in the last year than in any one year of the period, which is the latest of any of which any return has been made out. Thus the Noble Duke's best argument against my motion (that at least which was founded upon butter) has alto gether melted away. The Noble Marquis, the Lord Lieutenant of the county of Kent, has talked of " good sport attacking the Administration ;" he has talked of Ultra-Tories, discontented benches, and moderate Whigs—l know not under which head he has classed the humble individual who is now addressing you. But as I believe every man has a right to speak for himself, I will tell that Noble Marquis that I belong to no theoretical party—l belong to that party which has the welfare of the country most at heart, be it which it may. I will call it the country's party, and I will tell the Noble Marquis, that if he and other Noble Lords, who have pursued the same line of argument in the hope to deter me from doing my duty to my country, they are much mistaken if they expect to succeed. I will not con. descend even to reply to those charges of factious motives which have been made against me for originating this motion. I will be content to stand upon my character in this House and in the country. I it was who brought forward this motion, and I have stated my views upon it; if a factious spirit attaches to the mo tion in any shape, I alone am guilty of the crime, and not any of my Noble Friends who have supported me. I included in my motion " the effect of taxation on productive industry," because 1 wished to go straightforward,—and to have no concealment in the back ground; for can any man believe that if we had gone into a Committee, without professing to make the eftct off axation upon productive industry a part of our enquiries, we could in practice have excluded it from discussion in that Committee? I ask for an inquiry on behalf of the starving people of England. My only object is their relief, and not any purpose of making an at_ tack upon his Majesty's Ministers. If I wished to make such an attack, I would do it straightforward,—openly,—and honestly, by a direct motion of censure upon the conduct of Government, and would disdain the paltry resource of a side wind. But, my Lords, I can assure you, upon my honour, that I have no desire whatever to distress his Majesty's Ministers. I would gladly sup port the Noble Duke where I thought him in the right ;—but where I deem the measures of Government to be wrong, I will as fearlessly and as strenuously oppose him. My Lords, I know not what may be the Parliamentary usage ;—but in civilized so ciety I do know that a man ought not to impute to another mo tives which in himself he would be ashamed to avow- The House then divided— Not Contents, Present 69 . Proxies 72 -141 Contents, Present 39 Proxies n - 61 Majority SO Adjourned at Half-past Two. HOUSE OF COMMONS-(LAST NIGHT). Mr. Johnson brought up certain returns from the Office of the Chief Secretary for Ireland.—Laid on the table. 111 r. SADLER presented a petition from the Mar chioness of Hertford against the Selby and Leeds Rail-road Bill.—Referred to the Committee on the Bill. Sir M. W. RIDLEY presented a petition from the in habitants of Newcastle-upon-Tyne, praying the revision of the laws relative to the punishment of death.—Ordered to be printed. Sir R. FERGUSON presented a petition from the burgh of Kirkaldy, against the East India Monopoly.—Referred to the Committee on the Bill. OPERATIVE WEAVERS. Sir M. S. STEWART begged leave to present a pe tition from the operative weavers of Glasgow, praying for some relief from this House from the sinking distress under which they suffered. This petition was signed by about 4,600 individuals ; and large as this number was, he was informed that it composed but a very small por tion of the thousands that were now suffering the severest privations from the extremely low rate of wages to operative weavers in Glasgow. The petitioners averred, that the average income of each family, according to the strictest investigation, amounts only to about 35. 6d. of clear money per week, or does not exceed 45., and that after 96 hours of incessant labour." The petitioners at tribute their destitute condition to the rapid increase of population, and the still more rapid increase of machi nery in Glasgow,—causes over which the Home had no controul, and could not therefore be responsible for their effects, heavy and afflictive as they in this instance declared them to be, and it was very natural that the petitioners in their wretchedness should " presume that in the hands of this House rested the power to carry into operation measures of relief for the existing distress, and by efficient regulations prepare means of happiness and sub sistence to almost any amount of population." He sincerely wished that be could feel convinced that it was in the power of the House, to afford the asked-for relief, unless it was by opening the vast markets of India and China to the enterprise of their employers. But undoubtedly these petitioners, and thousands of their fellow operatives, were enduring .in themselves and families deep and heavy misery ; and he most earnestly of fered their well.drawn petition to the just and com passionate consideration of the House. He begged to take this opportunity of saying, and he had much satisfaction in d o ing so, which would prevent his trespassing on the time of the House in the long interesting debate that was to be continued that night, that, with the exception of the ope rative weavers (and that only made their case the harder), lie had good reason to believe—and he bad taken much pains to ascertain the facts from the best resources—that the manufacturers of Glasgow and Paisley were in rather a better condition than last year; and that small as profits were, still they had improved, and were considered by those best qualified to judge as still showing a tendency to improve.—Ordered to lie on the table. m e . HUME supported the prayer of the petition ; but he saw no hope for relief except by taking off taxes.— Ordered to be printed. Lord BlNGHAMpresented two petitions from Kil common (Ireland) against the Sub-letting and Vestry Acts. —Laid on the table. Colonel LUSHINGTON presented a petition from Car lisle, praying that the crime of forgery should not be punished with death. Lord BELFAST presented a petition from the mer chants of Belfast against the East India Monopoly.—Re ferred to the Committee on the Bill. REFORM. The Marquis of BLANDFORD presented a petition from a certain parish in Norfolk, praying for a Reform in Parliament.'.. r .Laid on the table. - The Notail.M.AnQuts also moved for a retutn of the number of Voters for each Borough in Ireland. Mr. ROSS (as we understood) said it would be impos sible to make such a return with any degree of accuracy. Mr. BENETT thought otherwise, and he could see no reason why the return could not be made. Sir 3. NEWPORT considered that the return might be in some degree imperfect, yet that it could be made, and it was most desirable that it should be made. Mr. HUME said that a similar motion had been made in the month of May last year, for a return of the number of persons entitled to vote for Members for Cities and Bo roughs in England.—The motion was then agreed to. CAPITAL PUNISHMENTS. Mr. BRAMSTON presented a petition from Chelms ford, Essex, praying the abolition of capital punishments, and the substitution of solitary confinement for certain crimes now punishable with death. He fully concurred with the prayer of the petition. Mr. WESTERN said he certainly approved of the abridgment of the punishment of death in certain capital cases, although he considered it to be necessary in others. Ordered to be printed. _ _ Sir JOHN NEWPORT made some communication to the House relative to charges made against a Right Rev. Prelate in the course of a recent debate on the affairs of the Irish Church, and as far as we could gather its import, the Hon. Member contradicted the charge which had been made. IRELAND. Mr. BROWNLOW presented a petition from the ope ratives of the Liberty of Dublin, complaining of distress, and praying that Government would encourage public works in Ireland, with a view to the employment of the poor. The people did not ask for charity—they only asked for the wages of labour. _ _ Referred to the Committee on the State of Ireland. Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN gave notice that on Monday next be would move for a Copy of the Judge's notes in a trial at Winchester in 11Iarch last year, for bribery and corruption at the Borough of Stockbridge. Lord W. POWLETT presented a petition from Sun derland, praying that forgery should not be punished with death.—Laid on the table. Mr. KEMP presented a similar petition from the town of Lewes. Mr. TRANT expressed a hope that the subject of a re vision of our Criminal Code would speedily take place; and, if no other Member brought it forward, he would himself undertake it. Mr. O'CONNELL moved for a return of the number of Freemen and Free Burgesses of Carlow, distinguishing the residents from the non-residents.—Ordered. MESSAGE OF THE LORDS. A message from the Lords announced their Lordships' agreement to several private bills without any amendment. Mr. SYKES moved for a return of the amount of ton nage of vessels entering into and sailing from the different ports of Ireland from the sth of January, 1323, to the sth of January, 1830, distinguishing the port of Dublin. Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from :certain inhabitants of the town of Galway, complaining of the abuses of the franchise and the general conduct of the Car poration.—Ordered to be laid on the table. The Hon. Member also presented a petition from Carrick-on-Suir and two other places, against the Sub-letting Act.—Or dered to be printed. Mr. P. MACQUEEN presented a petition from the county of Bedford, complaining of general distress, and praying for the repeal of the duty upon malt. He fully concurred with the prayer of the petitioners, and felt bound to state that distress was never more pressing nor more general than at the present period. Admiral SOTIIERON presented a similar petition from a parish in the county of Nottingham.—Laid on the table. Mr. JEPHSON begged to ask the Noble Secretary for Ireland how it happened that the memorial forwarded by the Grand Jury of Cork, relative to the trials for conspi racy held in that city in the course of last summer, had not been answered ? Lord L. GOWER said he had no recollection whatever of the memorial. He could only account for its not hay ing reached him from accident, or perhaps his absence from Dublin. Every enquiry had been made about it, but in vain. Mr. LITTLETON postponed his motion on the truck system to this day fortnight. Sir C. BURRELL presented a petition from the inha bitants of Shipley, relative to the trade in wool. They complained of the rate of duty, and of the want of suffi cient protection against the foreign grower of that article. COURT OF CHANCERY. Mr. M. A. TAYLOR said, in allusion to a motion which he made the other evening relative to the jurisdic tion of the Lord Chancellor, as to his sending issues de lunatico inquirendo before a Court of Common Law, in preference to the present practice of sending it before a Commission, there were some doubts as to bis power, but he had this day received a letter from the Noble Lord, who decided that he bad the power and would act upon it. it was due to the Noble and Learned Lord to say that he had every disposition to remedy the abuses as well as the expences of his Court.—( Hear, hear.)—This then being the case; he would beg leave to withdraw the Bill, which he had obtained leave to bring in, to confer the ne• cessary power.—The Bill was then withdrawn. POSTPONEMENTS. Lord L. GOWER postponed his motion on the Sub letting Act to the 97th April. Mr. ROBINSON also postponed his motion, which stood for this day, in consequence of the debate on the ge neral distress. Mr. Secretary PEEL postponed his motion on the subject of forgery on account of the importance of the ad journed debate. _ Mr. WHITMORE moved for a return of the quantity of Hides and Skins, Spirits and Tobacco, and of the duties charged upon each article, from sth January, 1828, to the sth January, 1830.—Ordered. Mr. W. PEEL brought up the Report of the Commis.. sion on the Ecclesiastical Courts.—Laid on the table. Mr. E. DAVENPORT presented a petition from the inhabitants of Shaftesbury, praying for an immediate in quiry into the state of public distress.—Laid on the table. ADMIRALTY COURTS—IRELAND. Lord F. L. GOWER said that he would bring forward the case of Sir Jonah Barrington soon after Easter, with a view to enable him to take what course he might think proper. The charge against him was founded on the 18th Report of the Commissioners of Inquiry in Ireland. He now gave notice that on the 29th April he would move for a Committee of the whole House to inquire into the charges made against him. DISTRESS OF THE COUNTRY.—(ADJOURNED DEBATE.) Mr. FERGUSSON moved the Order of the Day for resuming the adjourned debate on Mr. E. Davenport's Motion on this subject. The Order of the Day having been read— Mr. FERGUSSON said, that after the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, a few evenings ago, he thought that the House was bound to believe that the Mi nisters were really willing to do whatever was in their power.—(Hear, hear.)—The Hon. Member for Shaftes bury having moved for a Committee of the whole House, he (Mr. Fergusson) should have felt some difficulty iu complying with that motion, knowing that the time occu pied by such a proceeding would be highly disadvantageous to the other affairs of the country. The amendment of the Hon. Member for Shoreham (Sir C. Burrell), how ever, relieved him from the difficulty that he felt on that head, and he should therefore vote for the appointment of a Select Committee. The only question that ought to be considered with reference to that Committee was, whether a sufficient case of general distress bad been made out? He thought that the fair way of looking at that was by turning to the petitions that had been so numerously pre sented to that House, and to the almost universal county meetings that bad taken place on the subject, rather than to statements made on the strength of private, and, in some instances, anonymous informations, such as had been produced on the former evening by the Pre sident of the Board of Trade. But even if those private communications were correct, they only went to show that there had till very lately been very severe distress; and he did not see how, on the strength of a few orders transmitted to Manchester or Glasgow, it could be asserted that all that distress had disappeared, especially when the House had lying on their table petitions from the counties of Renfrew and Dumbar ton, complaining of the existence of distress. It might be true that there was less distress in Scotland and Ireland than in England ; but even if such were the case, he did not see how it was to be contended that that ought to preclude inquiry into the distress that existed in some places; and which partook of this one remarkable fea ture, which had, perhaps, never been experienced before —which was, that it was not the distress of this or that particular class, but of all the productive classes of the country. Though he agreed with the Hon. Member for Shaftesbury in many points, he was bound to differ from him in what he had urged with respect to the currency. He considered that a great part of the distress took its origin from the suppression of the small notes.—(Hear, hear.)—Nor was this felt in England only ; it necessarily reached Scotland, because the markets of that country in a great measure depended on the markets in England ; and it was only that very day that he had heard that at the Dumfries market it was impossible to find purchasers for cattle at any price. He thought that prosperity would never be restored to this country till the injury that had been done to it by the destruction of the country bank ing system had been rem e di e d. I n hi s o pi n i on , no se t o f men had ever been so ill treated as the country bankers. So manyeauses had been assigned for the distress, that the very different opinions entertained were to him a satisfac tory reason why there should be a Committee. It was only by inquiries in such a Committee, that they could ascertain the true cause. If all the papers referred to by the Right Hon. President of the Board of Trade the other evening were correct—and he had some doubts on the subject—they only showed that there could be no danger from the inquiry. Mr. W. \VHITMORE did not concur with those who said the distress was caused by a change in the currency, but other causes had contributed, and they were bound, before again changing the currency, to inquire if such a change would not cause greater mischief than allowing it to remain unchanged. Two effects have resulted from a change in the currency—the one physical, the mere change is the price of gold, and the other moral. He believed that when Mr. Peel's Bill was passed, the difference be tween the market price of gold and the Mint price was not more than 3 per cent.—(Hear, hear)—and that, there fore, would not of itself have produced any important con sequences. But any man who knew this country must be • aware, that in all our towns, and in every part of the coun try, great speculations had been entered into, and great un dertakings began by men who had not sufficient capital to complete them. They borrowed of bankers. The little depreciation in prices occasioned by the change in the cur rency, caused the property on which they had advanced money scarcely to be sufficient to reply them ; they sus tained a loss and restricted their business ; they ceased to make the same advances as before, and the industrious ma nufacturers not finding the same advances, there actually was a contraction of the currency. A panic was the con sequence. Capitalists saw their property was falling; that to lend was to lose—they would not lose, and that caused a stagnation. Moreover, we had two bad harvests conse cutively, which contributed to augment the distress. He pI believed, however, that this panic was not likely to be permanent. Paper money could not increase the pro duction of the country; that was regulated by the ; capital of the country, and would be carried to the same extent with a metallic as with a paper currency. Another cause of our temporary distress was, the gra dual fall in the price of all species of produce which had taken place, independent of the change in the currency. Since 1814, various new sources of supply had been opened for cotton, coffee, and all colonial and tropical produce. The countries beyond the Cape of Good Hope had since then sent their productions to the market, and had dimi nished the price of the article. A vast supply h a d b een I obtained of coffee also. The trade to South America had . 1 been followed by similar effects. Sugar had been sent to Europe from many new places, and in vast quantities. Our only supply of wool formerly came from Spain ; now we obtained a large quantity from Germany. Since the peace too, the capital before employed in war had been engaged in production, and bad had the effect of augmenting supply and lowering prices. But while a fall was taking place, it was well known that there was no encouragement to extend production. Stocks were not laid in more than was abso lutely necessary, because the holders might expect to lose on them. No works were undertaken which could be avoided ; but he believed that the fall from these causes had now reached its limits. He hoped, indeed, not as the President of the Board of Trade had stated, that prices bad risen, and that manufactures were reviving, but that a rise would speedily take place, and that manufactures would speedily revive. He would also mention, that he be lieved the diminished supply of the precious metals from South America had occasioned a fall of prices, and this cause would probably continue to operate for some time. Taking all these circumstances into his consideration, be saw no reason to doubt that the country would soon get through its present difficulties, and would again increase in prosperity, population, and wealth. He found evidence indeed that it was not at present declining. Not only were the exports greater last year than before, but almost every description of raw materials had been used to a greater degree last year than in former years. In 1820 the quan tity of cotton consumed was 470,000 bags ; in 1829 it was 780,000 bags. The quantity of silk consumed in 1823 was 2,104,000:b5. ; in 1829 it was 4,547,00011 m. The amount of our exports, the quantity of raw materials worked up, and the number of ships employed, all showed that there was a great deal of business going on, though he believed it was, in general, carried on at a low rate of profit, and sometimes at a loss ; for, whatever distress now existed, he did not believe any remedy could be found in returning to a depreciated currency. He approved of the Right Hon. Gent.'s Bill of 1819 ; and had we not then regu lated the currency, be believed that instead of new suffer ing only temporary distress, the capital would have gone out of the country, and would have sought employment elsewhere, where it was not subject to a ruinous fiuctua tion. He would also state—as it was said that nobody would defend such an opinion, though he would not then enter into any argument on the subject—that he believed we had done right in selecting gold for our standard in stead of silver. He would take that opportunity also of declaring, that he could not agree with the Hon. Member for Newark in any one of his propositions. That Hon. Member would find employment for our agriculturists, by making the people eat dear bread, and prohibiting the im portation of foreign corn. That Hon. Member would find employment for our manufactures, by excluding them from the foreign market ; and would crown all by a return to a paper currency. In no one of these propositions could he agree with the Hon. Member for Newark. If the Legislature would give employment to the people, and profit to capital, it must open the markets of the world to us by extending the principles of free trade, and removing as far as possible every restriction on enterprise. There was an inquiry going on into a most important subject; and if that should turn out as be desired, if free access were to be allowed to the East Indies, as sound policy, reason, and arguments, were they allowed their due weight, recommended, more would be done to relieve the distress of our manufactures than could be accomplished by any other measure. He implored the Right Hon. Gent. op posite to look at the case with his own eyes, and judge of it with his own understanding; and if he saw all the be nefits likely to result from the opening of the trade, he would be sure to come to a conclusion that it ought to be opened, and he would lay a permanent foundation for prosperity in both countries. Sir G. PHILLIPS, while he admitted that there was partial distress, did not believe in the universality of that distress among the manufacturing classes which had been mentioned by the Hon. Member for Kirkcudbright. He should state to the House what he knew of Lancashire, with which he was best acquainted, and of the state of which he had been at considerable pains to obtain correct information. Gentlemen acquainted with the manufac turing districts must be aware that it was impossible to obtain an average of the wages of labour in them, such as might be obtained of the uniform labour of agriculturists. He must, therefore, state the wages of different classes, and he would begin with that most extensive class--the hand- ' loom weavers—who were some of the most distressed. The wages of this class were, in Manchester —women, from 4s. to. ss. a week ; and men, from 6s. to 7s. Of late there had been a small rise, to the amount of 10d. far, women, and I 2d. for men. At Manchester, be undera` stood that at present the hand-loom weavers were gene.' rally employed. At Blackburn, the wages of the same class of persons was ss. per week. At Ashton-under- Lyne, the wages of the hand-loom weavers, whe were principally (we understood) employed on gingham, were better, and amounted to 10s. per week. At Bolton, the weavers earned from ss. to 6s. per week. The weavers of fustian were also earning from ss. to 6s. a week. These were the lowest prices that bad ever been paid in the manufacturing districts, and it certainly was much to be regretted that the distress of the masters hail ever compelled them to pay their workmen at such a rate. The Hon. Baronet then proceeded to state the prices given for various kinds of labour in cotton factories, but the noise in the House prevented us from taking the various degrees. We understood him to say that females in the factories could, from the age of 13 to 16, earn about ss. 6d. a week as carders, and from the age of 18 to 20, about Bs. or from that to Be. 6d. to 9s. 6d. ; fe males working as cleaners earn from about 6s. to 7e. These were the wages generally; but in Gloucester, and other places, many of the masters paid a rate of wages higher than the others. Men, as spinners there, received 21s. a week, although they had formerly 265. At Old ham, where there was a great population, females of 20 years earned, as spinners, about Bs. a week, while the men got 30s. a week for fine work in some places, although the average was about 255. a week in the district. There could be no doubt that, although the workmen within doors received these prices, those whose business required out of door work suffered severely during the continuance of the late frost. Bricklayers, carpenters, and boatmen, being unable to find employment, were of course compelled to be economical, and the result was distress in the small shop keepers ; for if the customers had no money, they could not indulge in their usual luxuries. The lion. Baronet then read, from a statement published by Mr. Taylor, au account of the state of the workmen in several of the districts, front which it appeared that the power-loom weavers are fully employed at reasonable wages, while the comparatively low price of the necessaries off life renders their situation one of existeci;l it Were g the ceun however beset, it the low I opinion, facturers Plow, ho , tion with. one-fif the foreit sixty mil markets was little the cause tress were chinery; As t o „ c to bin), c of persor abundant might be sorry to E 'tended ( trusted tl kaebinet trees, lall er eue, 81 be other rvaa cow. arose, he that had dulged iv never dri that exp under vsl market. causes Cornish subject ~~