The Sun. — London, England, 1830-03-26 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OP LORDS--(LAST NIGHT). lord GODERICH presented a, petition from Moses Solomo n , a Jew, of Hampshire, praying for the removal of disabilities. IMPROVEMENTS IN LAW PROCEDURE. The Earl of ELDON had two petitions to present against any alteration in the Welch system of 3'udicature— one from owners and occupiers of land, hod others, in the county of Pembroke; the other from the Mayor, Bur gesses, and other inhabitants of flavetfoialwest. Ile Lordship took that occasion to mention that it was not from any disrespect to those who promoted the measures which were now in pregress for making altetations in the system of law proeetlure, nor from any disrespect to the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack, who explained their nature to the House, that he was absent on the occa sion when such explanation was given. The reason of his absence was that he was then utterly unable to attend, and be would say no more on the subject. With respect to the measures themselves, which were called measures of reform, he should think it his duty to make every inquiry in his power as to their nature and tendency, and would most carefully consider whether they were such as it would be expedient to adopt.--(llear.) He took this opportunity also of expressing his concur rence in what had been said by the Noble and Learned Lord on the subject of the Court of Chancery Conitnis sioners. It lied been said that these Commissioners had been in the receipt of large salaries, anti had proved of great expence to the public, without any adequate advan tage ; but he concurred with the Noble and Learned Lord that they had not received a single farthing for their trouble and loss of time, and that they had never expected to receive a single farthing; and he would say further, because be knew the fact, that some of them had given their services gratuitously, at the expellee of great loss to themselves in the way of their profession. As to the Ecclesiastical Commission, he admitted not only Vie ex pediency, but the necessity for some alteration in the mode of procedure, and he thought that necessity was made manifest in a late case which came under the attention of their Lordships, and to which he need not more pa-ticu lady allude. As to the alterations in the criminal law, he did not feel himself in a situation confidently to say, how far they were proper or otherwise; and he would only say that he would feel disposed to give his approbation to what the public generally approved. As to the Welch Judi cature, he had at present some doubts as to parts at least of the proposed alterations. As to the alterations in the law of real property, he had only to repeat, that he would do nothing except from candid and sincere conviction. The petitions were then presented, and laid on the table. Lord CANDOR observed, that the system of the Welch Jurisdiction was not at present a benefit, but a great inconvenience. The Earl of ELDON then presented a petition from the shipowners of South Shields, complaining of the alteration in the Navigation Laws, and praying for relief. —Laid on the table. Sir ALEXANDER GRANT, and others from the Commons, brought up the answer to the message for a copy of the report of the Select Committee of the Commons, in 1828, on the subject of Irish and Scottish vagrants. The answer was, that the Commons had directed the copy to be fur nisher]. Mr. Draper, from the Treasury, presented the Finance Accounts for the United Kingdom for 1829. The Marquis of SALISBURY moved for certain Re turns; relative to the moneys expended on the roads between London and Edinburgh, and London and Holyhead ; and he also moved that a Message be sent to the Commons for the evidence taken before their Committee on the subject of these roads. These motions were agreed to. Lord WHARNCLIFFE presented a petition from Hud dersfield, in which they represented their distress. They blamed the change from a paper to a metallic currency, and proposed that the fundholders should he taxed snore largely for the relief of the rest of the community. In that he could not agree with them. They then proposed a re duction of taxation, and there he did agree with them ; and he thanked the Ministers for what they had already done, and he hoped they would be enabled to do a good deal mote in the way of reduction.—Petition laid on the table. CORN TRADE. The Earl of MALMESBURY moved for two returns— one of wheat from Ireland, imported into Liverpool between the 45th of July, 1828, and the sth of January, 18:30—the other of the returns sent to the proper officer in London of the wheat purchased at Liverpool and Manchester during the same period. rle did not at all mean to raise again the general question as to the corn trade, but be did mean to say that they ought to understand exactly the effect of the manner in which the averages were taken, in e►der that if a very material defect appeared, that defect might be rectified. The Earl of LIMERICK approved of the course which his Noble Friend took, with a view to set the average on a proper footing. MALT TAX. Lord SUFFIELD had three petitions to present from owners and occupiers of land in the Hundreds of Humble yard, Taverbarn, and North Cottingham, in Norfolk, com plaining of distress, and praying as a measure of relief fur the repeal of the. Malt Tax. That was a measure which would certainly benefit the condition of the lower orders, as well as the farmers and landowners. Upon an average of the last years, he could take upon himself to say that during that period the condition of the farmers of Norfolk wits Worse than it was ten years ago, notwithstanding the reductions of taxation which had taken place. The farmer carried on his business with less capital than at the former period, and farming was a- losing trade. As to the pro tecting duties on corn, he thought that they did very little service to the farmer or landowner, while, probably, they did much injury to the manufacturer and other classes of the community. The farmers were convinced that a re peal of the Malt Tax, and a reduction of taxation generally, would afford them great relief, but many of them did not expect much from a reduction of rents ; but at the same time rents must be reduced. He thought that a great portion of the distresses of the country resulted from the manner in which the poor laws were admini stered. The petitioners prayed relief by a reduction of taxation, and he agreed with them ; and if relieved in this manner, they would be able to produce corn so cheap, that the Protecting Corn Duty might be altogether repealed. Besides the Malt Tax, he thought that there were several others, chiefly affecting the poor, which might be mate rially reduced or repealed. Such as the taxes upon coals and candles. He then presented the petitions, which were laid on the table. The Earl of ELDON took that opportunity of com plaining that what he had said on a former occasion, about the alteration in the currency, had been grossly misrepre sented. What he had said was the very reverse of what he was stated to have said. Ile also alluded to the ca lumnies which had been spread about him, as to his con duct while sitting in the Court of Chancery. Whenever he was rightly blamed, ha had endeavoured to correct him self; but, as to unfounded calumnies, he regarded them with profound contempt. Lord KING presented a petition from the Jews of Nor wich, praying for a removal of disabilities. Also a peti tition from some part of Westmeath, against the Irish Ves try Bill. The Earl of WINCHILSEA presented a petition from the Owners and Occupiers of Land about Romney Marsh, complaining of distress, and praying for relief. These petitions were laid on the table. KENT COUNTY PETITION. Earl STANHOPE had to present the petition of a numerous and respectable body of the freeholders of Kent, and be rose to discharge that duty with peculiar pleasure, as he fully concurred with the sentiments it expressed. With respect to the meeting, he certainly should not have felt it his duty to stay anything, had it not been for what had fallen on a former occasion from a Noble Friend, who was the Lord-Lieutenant of the county. He might really address that Noble Marquis as a friend, after twenty-five years of intimate acquaintance. That Noble Marquis had represented that the meeting was called by a political party, for the purpose of opposing the Government. If the charge were true, it formed no valid objection to the petition ; but it was clear that it would be vain and hope less for such a party to appeal to the country in this con stitutional mode of obtaining their opinion, if the state of things which they described had no real existence to justify their assertions. If the freeholders had thought the dis tress partial, or bad imagined that it was not under the controul of Parliament, they would neither have expressed what they had done, nor have agreed to those resolutions which had been the groundwork of the petition. The requisition for the meeting was signed by two Noble Lords, and by him (Earl Stanhope), but by no member of the other House. He had stated long since his opinions with respect to the causes of the present distress, as ope rating on the agricultural and manufacturing interests, and with regard to the currency. To a Government that acted on the principles which be thought alone would prove the salvation of the country, they should have his cordial and zealous support ; but be should oppose those who acted differently. A Noble Earl, not now present, had represented that the cure for this distress was to be found in the reduction of rents ; but, considering that landlords were now distressed from that very came, it was lie the talc of the wan who, when he complained of want of food, Was gravely fold that the cure was in leaving off eating. He had no ob jection to landlords reducing their rent as much as they • pleased, but he had a strong objection to their Lordships passing any measure that would go to deprive others of their rents. Although he considerd it a great and dan gerous delusion to say that taxes were of themselves the rause of distress, or that that distress eould he materially relieved by their reduction, it was, however, important to be known that they had been virtually doubled since ISI9, and that to pay the eamt nominal amount as was then levied double the quantity of goods must be sold. When the tame taxation existed, but the country pos sessed greater means of paying it as it did before Isl 9, it was in a state of prosperitys This generated ill-will be tween the different classes of society, and brought them into collision With each other. A proof of this was that in tire Kent county meeting of last year the people had hailed with joy a proposition for the appropriation of church property. His Lordship here stated several in stances in whieh the charges, in the shape of taxes and tittles, upon land, amounted almost to a confiscation of the land itself—these charges in some instances being above double the rent. The petition complained of free trade, and of the alteration in the currency, and concluded with praying for Parliamentary Reform. He strongly disap proved of Radical Reform, which would practically place the nation in the hands of men possessed of no property or stake in it ; but he most say with these petitioners, that the House of Commons did net express the feelings of the people, and that a Parliamentary Reform, founded on a due consideration of the subject, and conducted with pru dence, was most fervently to be desired. As there would he another opportunity for him to discuss this question, as well as that of free trade, he should now merely move that the petition be brought up and read. The :Marquis CAMDEN had not intended to address the House, and should not have done so but for some of the remarks which hail fallen from the Noble Earl who had just addressed their Lordships. In what lie had stated on a former night, he certainly had not intended to deny the existence of distress—but he meant, as far as his observation and opinion went, that the distress was not eo great as it had been represented to be, not only by the Noble Lord who had just sat down, but by others both in and out of that House. Es-en if Kent should, however, prove to he more distressed than he bad imagined, it was no answer to his statement; for that county was pecu liarly circumstanced. It might suffer the most severe distress, and yet that distress might not be general throughout the kingdom, so that the Noble Earl would not be justified in saying that the country was in a state of general distress. The amount of the hop duty, together with the extremely low price of that article, left the cultivators of it in a state of severe distress ; and such might he the case there and in Sussex, and yet the distress might not be general. He concluded by declaring himself opposed to the views of the Noble Earl. After a few words from Earl STANHOPE, The Earl of WINCHILSEA said that, having been re quested by the petitioners, who were men inferior to none in loyalty and worth, to present the petition, he considered that he should he wanting in that respect which he really felt for the character of the men, if he remained silent upon the occasion. He would nor, however, trespass long upon the attention of the House, as he proposed to confine him • self to some of the views of the petitioners. He would not occupy their Lordships' time in dwelling upon the dis tress of the people ; he would not enter into the afflicting details of their circumstances and condition of that great class and body who were connected with the agricultural interests in that part of the empire. Ile would not trouble them with proving that there was a great diminution of wealth and capital amongst the occupiers of the soil.— Heart-rending indeed would it he to lay before their Lord ships the scenes which he had witnessed. Freeholdtrs, who It id once lived surrounded by their families in com fort and happiness, were now borne down by those bur thens with which they were unequally and unfairly op pressed, and were compelled to part with that patrimony which had been acquired by the honest industry of their forefathers—with that cottage home and the land attached to it which must have been as dear to them as his princely palace and splendid demesne could be to the proudest Peer of the realm; and now in the last years of an industrious and blameless life, they were consigned to a subsistence upon that scanty pittance to which they were once the chief contributors.—(Hear, hear, hear. )=On these topics he would not permit himself to dwell ; but he would briefly and boldly assert, notwithstanding the opinions of the Noble - Marquis and the Noble Earl, that the present distress was never equalled in the memory of the oldest man.—(Hear, hear. )—He wished that those who founded their belief of the general prosperity upon the receipt of their rents, would inquire if these were not paid out of the tenant's capital, and he would even say out of their own, be cause, if land were improperly cultivated, he maintained that a draught was made upon the capital of the landlord. And he could take upon him to declare, that in the county in which he had the honour to reside, four-fifths of the ploughed land was now sown with wheat.—(Hear, hear.) —There was mentioned in the petition one other result of the pressure of distress, to which he wished to advert— namely, the diminution in the numbers of that body of men who formed the connecting link between the owner of the land and the labourer upon it, and who had been the chief characteristic and glory of the country in former days, anti its noblest bulwark and greatest safeguard and security in times of difficulty and danger, under the dread of foreign invasion, &c. and in the maintenance of that mighty struggle which we had carried on in defence of tLe liberties of Europe. And he would declare, that if there were one particle of truth in this statement, their Lord ships would be bound, if they had any feeling of private interest—he would not say of public virtue, or regard to the public good, for he had seen but too little of these in the course of his political career, having found that poli tical characters were too frequently actuated by private in terest, instead of anxiety for the commonweal ; and, in deed, from his own experience, he could speak upon this painful topic ; for the bonds of political and personal friendship which united him to the friends with whom lie used to act bad been most cruelly severed, so that he had now few political friends, and none whom he would con sider himself called upon, from ties of party, to support, in any motion or proposition in which he (lid not conscien tiously concur—and, consequently, he would not talk of public feeling; but if their Lordships had any feeling of private interest, they would be bound to assent to the inquiry, anti endeavour to provide means for reliev ing the yeomanry of England from the pressure of in tolerable distress. He wished that the Noble Duke would, in his visits to Kent, diverge from the direct road to his mansion, and, passing by Romney Marsh, inquire from the inhabitants if his statements were exaggerated. He wished he would inquire from them if their wealth and capital were not diminished—if the men themselves had nut sunk in the scale of society—and if the produce of the land were not insufficient, even independent of the rent, to meet the burthens of the land? He knew, himself, that farms in Kent had been let for a period of three years upon the sole condition that they were to be kept in cultivation. If, however, the Noble Duke were to terminate his journey at the seat of the Noble Marquis, or the Noble Earl, he would not find the same heart-rending distress, because the labourers in their immediate neighbourhood, were, of course, kept in employment; but if he were to ask their tenantry why they retained their farms, he would find that it was because they had embarked all their capital, and could not there'ore abandon them, but were compelled to trust to the generosity of their landlords. As to the dimi nution of the poor rates in the neighbourhood of a Noble Earl, it was accounted for by the employment which his demesne afforded to the poor around him; but it was clear that the distress in the district was nevertheless great. He had himself heard, from a Magistrate of Chatham, that the authorities there were employed from morning till night in endeavouring to procure employment and relief for the poor. He agreed with the petitioners that the contraction of the currency was injudicious. And as to free trade, he would have no objection to it if the people were first eased from those burdens which now compelled them to exclaim that there was no money, no credit, no security in the country. There was another matter touched on in the petition on which he would reserve his opinion, simply stating, however, that, although no ad vocate for radical reform, he did not consider the people of England had their just weight in the other House. The Marquis CAMDEN declared that the distress was not severe in his neighbourhood ; he, however, acknow ledged that it existed in other parts of the county to a great degree. The Earl of DARNLEY acknowledged the respect ability and the numerical weight of the meeting from which the petition had emanated, but declared he had not been present, in consequence of his conviction that no pro position of his, or any of his Noble Friends, had any chance of being successful—to which conclusion he was led by the remembrance of what had taken place at former county meetings, at one of which, in 1822, Mr. Cobbctt had proposed an equitable adjustment as a relief for the existing distress; and he (Lord D.) knowing that it never could he rendered equitable, and being an honest man, had opposed it, and was left alone in his opposition; and at another, at which the Noble Earl had voted a Loyal Ad dress to the King, but was with the Noble Earl, his second and bottleholder, whom he did not see in his place, knocked down by a respectable auctioneer from Rochester, 10 submitt e d and carried triumphantly a very different address, tad out which be believed the NON Earl would not like to have presented to his Majesty.--(Hear, and laughter.)—Besides, he asked the Noble Earl if there was not a second petition proposed which was more in favour of the meeting? He was as anxious as the Noble Earl to relieve the distress of the country; but he could not agree to vote with them until they had distinctly stated their remedy. The nostrum suggested in the petition was a tampering with the Currency and the Corn Laws, to which he trusted the Noble Duke would not agree. The Government had already done all that could be done to re lieve the people by a reduction of taxation, and they had promii;ed more. And considering that the distress arose from circumstances over which Ministers had no controul, he thought it would more become Noble Lords who had the interest of the country at heart, to recommend the people to look forward to better times than to encourage them to give way to despair. Earl STANHOPE was opposed to what was called an equitable adjustment. He wished for an issue of paper money, on the principle that bankers should be the distri butors, not the creators of money. No good could, in his opinion, result from a reduction of taxation, unless they could bring it and the expenditure down to the standard of 1791, which was altogether impossible. They should, therefore, resort to the only other expedient which was left them. As to the Noble Earl's question about the plan, he had only to say that the petition he presented was, ac. cording to the decision of the Sheriff, after a show of hands, decided to be that approved of by the majority. Lord SUFFIELD observed that Ministers were arriving to relieve the distress which was not attributable to them. He said this, while agreeing with the Noble Lord that the yeomanry had suffered considerably. The petition was then laid upon the table. Earl STANHOPE then moved for the following re turns :—The declared value of French silk imported since 1526 to the present time ; the declared value of English manufactures exported during the same period ; of the lea ther imported since 1823 ; of gloves imported since 1823 ; of gloves exported since 1823 ; of expences of the Preven tive Service, from its first establishment to the present time. Their Lordships then adjourned till tu-morrow, at Ten Minutes before Eight. HOUSE OF COMMONS-(LAST NIGHT.) Colonel SIBTHORPE, in consequence of a letter which had been addressed to him, wished to call the attention of the House to a misrepresentation—unintentional he had no doubt—of what fell from him on a former evening. He had been reported to have said that Mr. Jacob, Mr. Bull, and Mr. Shipley, were very roughly handled in Lincoln, and would be afraid to show their faces in any market in that county. What he had said was this—that he much regretted that the Noble Duke at the head of his Majesty's Government did not take his information from men of more practical information than those gentlemen. He was aware of the difficulties which attended the business of reporting in that House ; and nothing could be further from his wishes than to impute intentional misrepresentation ; his only motive was to correct what had unfortunately gone abroad. He postponed his motion respecting increased ac commodation for reporters to Thursday, May 13. Mr. MARSHALL presented petitions from Gomersal, and two other clothing districts, in Yorkshire, against the East India Monopoly.—Referred to the Committee on the Charter. Mr. AGAR ELLIS moved for Copies of the Corre spondence between Mr. Secretary Peel and the Officers of the Society for Superseding the Use of Climbing Boys.— Agreed to. Mr. lIART DAVIS presented a petition from the Licensed Victu die's of Bristol, against a free trade in beer. —To lie upon the table. Mr. STUART WORTLEY presented a petition from the clothing district of Wortley, against the restraints upon the trade with China.—To lie upon the table. Sir JOHN WROTTESLEY presented petitions from Swillerton and Stoke-upon-Trent, complaining of distress. —To be printed. Sir 'l'. WINNINGTON presented a similar petition from the county of the city of Worcester. Sir T. KINNERSLEY supported the petition, urging the advanta g es of a reduced taxation, and notici n g th e effect which the currency had produced upon the present circumstances of the country. Colonel DAVIES contended that the weight of taxation was the real cause of the public distress. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT said, that if the petition were read and fairly answered, it would be seen that the representations contained in it were not without foundation. Ile hoped the petition would not be allowed to lie upon the table without being read and considered. It was a gross mistake to suppose that the intelligence and information of the country were confined within the four walls of that House, and it was perfect insanity to imagine that any re duction of taxation which the Government was capable of effecting could alone produce those results from which per manent or extensive relief might be obtained. They could not shut their eyes to the real cause. Every practical per son, engaged in the trade or in the commerce of the coun try, was of opinion that no relaxation of taxes could give the required relief. In saying so much, he hoped it would not be supposed that he was otherwise than a friend to every practical repeal of taxes ; but what he contended for was that the repeal of taxes alone was insufficient for tile purposes of relief. The parties appeared to him not to be agreed on what ground the question really rested ; but in having quoted i the theory of Hume the other night, he did not mean it to be understood that he adopted it. He did it because he thought, as the Hon. Gentleman had said, that he had no principle to go upon, he might be able to collect from that Essay something to conduct him through hi s dilemma. The great object of the country ought to be, to have a currency that would neither increase nor dimi nish. Those who lived by prices were the persons to which they had to look ; and would any one pretend to tell him that when those prices were depreciated more than a third, it could make no difference to the class of individuals he had just specified ? No doubt it was very satisfactory to have upwards of three millions of taxes taken off, but the difference of interest, owing to the alteration in the currency, more than amounted to that, so that it would only be holding out a delusion to say, that a remission of taxation would be sufficient. After a few words from Mr. WA RBURTON, Sir C. Bun- Mr. BarrinT, and Sir M. W. RIDLEY,: Mr. E. DAVENPORT said he had received letters from Chester, Staffordshire, and Westmoreland, from which it appeared that the price of cattle had depreciated in the proportion of 20 to 28 ; grazing lands had also depre dated in the proportion of 16 to 20 ; and the consump tion of butchers' meat had been reduced one-third. Lord J. RUSSELL said, that if the question of the cnr rency had not been fairly met, it was because the Hon. Member for Shaftesbury's motion was too general. Let the question be brought fairly before the House, and he had no doubt that it would be fairly met. Mr. DAVENPORT would endeavour to accept the challenge of the Noble Lord. After a few words from Mr. WARD, Mr. WARBURTON, and Cu!. DAVIES, the petition was ordered to be printed. Mr. W. MARSHALL presented a petition from some place in Yorkshire against the Renewal of the East India Company's Charter, Sir W. W. WYNN presented a petition from the county of Denbigh, complaining of distress. GUN MAKING. Mr. LAWLEY presented a petition from the Gun makers of Birmingham against the abolition of the Proof House for small arms, at Birmingham. Mr. Alderman THOMPSON took the opportunity of stating that the gun-makers of London who, during the war, were making upwards of 3,200,000 stand of arms per year, were now in great distress. Mr. LITTLETON concurred in the prayer of the peti tion. He thought it better that the Government should supply itself with every thing it wanted by public con tract than by manufacturing. During the war one mus ket was made per minute for a considerable period, in the establishments at Birmingham and Sheffield. He should support the Member for Warwick when he made a motion on the subject. Mr. WILLIAM SMITH also objected to the Govern ment manufacturing anything whatever for itself. The petition was brought up and read. Mr. HUME also objected to the Government becoming the manufacturer of arms. Its wants might always be supplied without keeping up any expensive establishments for the purpose of manufacturing arms. Mr. PERCEVAL hoped that Hon. M em b ers wou ld postpone the discussion till a proper period. The petition was then ordered to be printed. Mr. Alderman THOMPSON presented a petition from the gun makers of London, complaining of distress, and praying for relief. Mr. Alderman WOOD supported the petition. Mr. DUGDALE stated that the Ordnance had now one million stand of arms there, and could not be ex pected to give encouragement to the private manufacturer. Mr. WARBURTON presented a petition from Brid port, Devon, in favour of a reform of the Criminal Law. Mr. WESTERN presented a petition from certain millers of Essex, praying that they might be allowed to take Foreign Wheat out of bond at a duty of 4s. a quar ter, giving a bond that the flour made from it should not be used for home consumption. The petitioners wished that they might have the advantage of the manufacture of the flour. He thought it would be beneficial to the art culturists that they should, as the bran would he retained for home consumption, and he hail no objection to the prayer of the petition. Mr. BRAMSTON supported the petition. Mr. HERRIES wished to recal to the recollection of the House, that the subject of the petition had already undergone considerable discussion, when the grinding clause of the Corn Bill went through the Committee. If any measure could be devised. consistently with the secu rity of the Landed Interest, that the Corn Laws should not be'evaded, the Goverwnent would be disposed to pro . mote the object of the petitioners. After a few words front Mr. HUME, recommending the prayer of the petition, it was brought up, read, and laid on the table. Mr. W. SMITH presented a petition from an indivi• dual of Norwich, in favour of the Jews. Lord J. RUSSELL presented a petition from the Let ter-Press Printers of Sheffield, praying for a Reduc tion of the Stamp Duty on Newspapers and Advertise ments. The petitioners were persuaded that the duty, if reduced, would yield more to the Revenue. Col. SIBTHORPE supported the petition. Sir W. RIDLEY presented a petition from Newcastle, praying for the Abolition of the Monopoly of the East India Company. The petition was ordered to be referred to the Com mittee sitting to inquire on the East India Company's Charter. Sir M. J. STEWART begged to present a very im portant petition, and one that must carry with it much weight, and was entitled to great consideration, inasmuch as it was a petition from the Merchants' House of Glasgow, comprising many of the most opulent and extensive mer charts, manufacturers, and proprietors of that great city, who, in t/e+iir capacity of citizens, householders, and deeply interestedinembers of that large and enlightened commu nity, earnestly petitioned Parliament to arrest the future progress of the Glasgow Royalty Extension Bill, and to prevent its passing into a law. Mr. Alderman WOOD presented a petition from the Congregation of a Dissenting Chapel in 'Worship-street, Finsbury-square, against the Punishment of Death. Mr. LABOUCHERE, in postponing the motion of which he had given notice, on the subject of the Canadas, did so at the pressing request of his Hon. Friend the Mem ber for Dover (Mr. P. Thomson), whose propositions were that evening to come under discussion ; but he hoped that the Government would delay voting the Estimates for the public expellees in Canada, until he could put the House in possession of the necessary information on that, he was convinced, most important question to Canada, as well as to the mother country. He was sorry to say that there seemed to be no open day before the 18th of May; but he hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would, in the meantime, abstain from bringing these Estimates b..fore the House, and thereby putting him to the disagreeable necessity of opposing the Speaker's leaving the Chair. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the House had been so much occupied with the discussions on the very numerous motions brought forward this Session by Hon. Members, on the question of going into Commit tees of Supply, that the Government had not yet got through more than one-third of the Estimates of the year. To comply with the wishes of the Hon. Member would, therefore, very much retard public business, and put the Go vernment to serious inconvenience, but he suggested the probability of an arrangement being made with some other Hon. Member who had a motion for a day before the discussion of the Ordnance Estimates, so far as to allow the motion of the Hon. Member (Labouchere) to take precedence. - After some conversation between Mr. HumE, Mr. STANLEY, Mr. PEEL, and others, the motion was post poned till the Ist of April. Mr. JEPHSON, in consequence of a communication from the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Colonies, stating that the Government had taken the question respecting the extension of Trial by Jury at New South Wales and Van Dieman's Land into their considera tion, for the purposes contemplated by this motion, ex pressed the great satisfaction he felt in withdrawing his motion—a satisfaction which the announcement of the in tentions of the Government would extend to all who were desirous of extending the advantages of our laws to the Colonies. TAXATION. Mr. P. THOMSON said it was not his object to sub mit any proposition of a substantive nature to their con sideration, nor did he himself propose any change in the system of taxation. All he desired was to procure the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire what re medy could be applied to the abuses of the system of tax ation, if such abuses should be found to exist ; and if they did not exist, to satisfy the people of this country that their complaints and suspicions on the subject were un founded. He approved of what the Government had done; but he thought they had not gone far enough ; and he proposed to show how they could more effectually apply the principle of taxation they had adopted, of putting as much as possible into the Treasury, and taking as little as possible out of the pockets of the people. It was a sin gular circumstance that the petitions laid on the table of ' the House, however they differed on all other points, agreed on this—that the pressure of taxation was too great and too unequal. The petitions on the table were all to that effect. He was not one who would yield to popular opinion, where it was not founded in justice ; but this opinion was founded in justice.— The Honourable Member for Essex had contended, in the late important debates, that because the country bore taxation during the war, it must be able to bear it (luring the peace. During the war, however, we were able to bear it. To account for this there was a variety of circumstances; partly because these taxes were then paid in a depreciated currency ; also because such was the great ingenuity and skill of great scientific men in this country, as applied to arts and commerce—of such men as Watt and Arkwright—that the improvement of the whole fabric of British manufactures was advanced by such vast strides as never to have been previously equalled in the history of the world. This concurrence of singularly advantageous events gave to Great Britain, for a time, almost a monopoly of the trade of the world. This mo nopoly acted in a variety of ways all favourable to this country ; it unlocked British capital, and as in the dis tressed and disturbed state of the continent money could not find adequate employment there, it reached England circuitously, and became beneficially embarked in extend ing her manufactures. In such a state of things, it was obvious the people could bear heavy taxation. Indeed, Mr. Pitt was precisely of this opinion, when in one of his speeches he showed how war had that effect, and quoted the lines of Horace— " Per damna, per ca des, ab ipso " Ducit opes animuinque ferro." In such a state of things the commerce of England could command its own prices in the foreign market; but when pe Ice came, this was no longer practicable, and the British trader was necessarily obliged to regulate his price by that in the other markets of the world. This was not his only difficulty ; he could no longer keep at home his skill and jug , nuity, on which the previous strength of his monopoly so mainly depended; these were carried by artisans else where, to the benefit of the foreigner, with whom their commerce had to compete. When persons compared their state of trade in war and in peace, all there considerations were elemental in coming to ,a fair conclusion upon the comparison. The real question, however, was, what ought they to do, in the altered state of their trade and com merce? As his Hon. Friend behind him had said, all prices were made up of the cost of the raw material, wages, and profits —of course taking into the calculation whatever quota of tax entered into the article. Looking at these parts of the price, h. would say, that wages were now at their minimum, and could not be still further reduced ; profits were very low, and could not be diminished ; there only remained then to alleviate the burden of taxa tion.--(Hear, hear.)—There, and there only, did he look for a practical remedy.—(llear, hear.)—lf this were not speedily given, they would gradually lose all the natural and acquired advantages which their manufactures had over those of other countries. In fuel, and in ingenuity and skill, they had with fair play very great advantages; and if they looked at the progress of events in other commer cial states, they would find an example either to follow or avoid. Let the House look back at the history of the world. Let them read that admirable work, " La Ri chesse de la Hollande," by M. Luzac. They would there see the manner in which an erroneous taxation affected that country. Holland was formerly situated nearly as we were. It had a large debt ; and although it had not a numerous poor, yet their place was supplied in the public expenditure by the necessity of keeping up the dykes.— So great was the anxiety of the Dutch Government to acquire information on this important subject, that various commissions were appointed for the express purpose ; one of the most interesting reports from which was that made by a Commission appointed in 1751, in the reign of William the Fourth. But it was contended that we had entered into contracts which must be maintained, that we might preserve our good faith. He was as ready as any man to fulfil the public engagements, and to keep up whatever establishments were neces sary for the dignity, honour, and safety of the coun try. It was not so much to the amount of taxation as to incidence that he objected. He had quoted a Dutch writer, he might quote French and Spanish.— Sully, Turgot, and other writers, all declared that the suf fering under which the commercial and manufacturing classes of France laboured arose from the evils of mis placed taxation. Sully said, that in his time, to raise thirty millions for the public revenue, a hundred and twenty millions were taken from the pockets of the people. Tur • got stated, that the roads on which ten millions wer•c ex pended, cost the people forty millions. In the declining state of Spain, that decline was attributed by the best Spanish writers to the most infamous impost which was ever laid upon any people—the Aleavalla. On the im portance of the manner of levying taxes, Adam Smith had the following passage :—•" Every tax ought to be so con trived as both to take out, and keep out, of the pockets of the people, as little as possible over and above what it bringb into the public Treasury of the State. A tax may either take out or keep out of the pockets of the people a great deal more than it brines into the public treasury in the four following ways :—First, the levying of it may re quire a greater number of officers, whose salaries may eat up the greater part of the produce of the tax, and whose perquisites may impose another additional tax upon the people. Secondly, it may obstruct the industry of the people, and discourage them from applying to certain branches of business which might give maintenance and employment to great multitudes. While it obliges the people to pay, it may thus diminish, or perhaps destroy, some of the funds that might enable them more easily to do so. Thirdly, by the forfeitures and other penalties which those unfortunate individuals incur who attempt unsuccessfully to evade the tax, it may frequently ruin them, and thereby put an end to the benefit which the community might have received from the employment of their capitals. Fourthly, by subjecting the people to the frequent visits and the odious examination of the tax-ga therers, it may expose them to much unnecessary trouble, vexation, and oppression ; and though vexation is not, strictly speaking, expellee, it is certainly equivalent to the expence at which every man would be willing to redeem himself from it." Let the House look at the history of our existing taxation, and see how closely it agreed in many repects with the description of that kind of taxation which Adam Smith thus deprecated. In 1793 the revenue was only seventeen millions. That amount was carried, by suc cessive taxations, up to seventy millions. It would be said by some that this took place under the Administration of Mr. Pitt. But if Mr. Pitt were now living, he (Mr. Thom son) would call upon him, in support of his principle ; for it was a principle which Mr. Pitt always advocated, and in the early part of his life acted upon. Mr. Pitt might have been driven by the necessities of the war to taxation ; but the principle which he (Mr. Thomson) was now main taining, was to be found in the two great measures upon which principally the fame of Mr. Pitt was founded—the Commutation Act, and the Treaty of Commerce with France. If Mr. Pitt allowed himself to be hurried on in the career of taxation by the events of a war which he every year thought was drawing to a close, it was not wonderful that others should follow his example. But it was reserved for Mr.V ansittart to show the soundness of Swift's maxim, that the arithmetic of the Exchequer was not like the arith metic of common life. He found no fault with Mr. Van sittart or with the Parliament. It was not difficult to be lieve that a Parliament which had voted at a time when paper was in a state of great depreciation, that a pound note and a shilling were equivalent to a guinea, would have no hesitation in voting anything else. He should be obliged, in what he had to state to the House, to enter into details of figures, which he trusted the House would pardon. He would divide the taxes of the country into two branches. First, those taxes which, pressing en the raw material, were injurious to our manufactures, and, therefore, required revision ; and, secondly, the class of taxes which was the principal object of his motion, anti to which he wished to call the particular attention of the House ; taxes far too high in their amount, and a great reduction in which would, he was convinced, be followed by no diminution whatever in their produce. It was quite astonishing to see the man ner in which, in the days to which he had lately been al luding, taxation was treated. Tire Legislature seemed to he playing tricks with them, transposing them, and drawing out first one card, anti then another. The duty on tobacco in Great Britain had, in the course of thirty-nine years, from 1789 to 1528, been changed three times.-- Having been advanced from 350 per cent. to 1,200 per cent., it was afterwards brought down to 200 leer cent. In Ireland, the same duty had been changed ten times. The duties on British spirits and gin had, in the course of thirty years, been changed eleven times, and had been raised 300 per cent. The duties on sugar had been changed seventeen times. The duty on tea had been changed seven times. The duty on glass had been changed five times, and had been raised 500 per cent. He came now to examine some of the taxes which pressed most heavily on our ma. nufacturing and other interests. And first, there was the Timber Duty. The amount of that duty was 1,550,000/. He knew that it was a duty which involved political as well as financial considerations. But to him it appeared most extraordinary and absurd on the part of the legislature, to make the people of this country pay so highly for bad tim ber, when they might have good at so much a less rate, and, he was persuaded, without any injury to the revenue, by the admission of timber from the Baltic.—(Hear, hear.) This was one of the blessings which we owed to Mr. Van sittart. In 1810, when the Act imposing that duty passed, 428,000 tons of British shipping were employed in the Baltic trade, being little less than one-fourth of the British commercial navy. He would not, however, dwell long on this point ; because, as he had already observed, it was mixed up with political considerations. Such was not the case with the next, which was purely financial. He meant the hemp duty. The duty on hemp amounted to 70,000/. ; being 16 per cent. on the value of the article. If any tax in the whole list of taxation ought to be remitted, it was surely this. Hemp was a material which entered into the composition of numerous products affecting our greatest manufacturing interest. The next article to which he should advert was soap. The gross revenue of soap was 1,371,000/. the net revenue 1,203,000/. The duty on hard soap was threepence a pound. But it was not merely the amount of the duty, the regulations respecting the manufacture of it were most absurd and injurious. There were no fewer than seven different ways of collecting the duty on soap. In London it was collected in one manner; at Liverpool, in another ; at Hull, in a third. The result was the exposure of the fair trader to the most serious ineonveniencics. O❑ the other hand ire himself knew two houses who availed themselves of some of the existing regulations to carry on the soap trade with the capital of the Government. There was a drawback on the exportation of soap to Ireland. The draw back was paid immediately ; while the duty was not re quired until after the expiration of six weeks from the ma nufacturer of the soap. Two houses in Liverpool, exporting their soap to Ireland immediately after it was made, re ceived the drawback, which they had not to pay in the shape of duty for• nearly five weeks, during which time they therefore held in their hands the capital of Govern 'neut. He would not enter minutely into the subject of this duty ; but it required considerable revision, and he was convinced that if lessened, the Revenue would not suffer any loss. But if he passed by this duty so easily, he could not do so with the next—he meant the duty on barilla. That duty had been imposed for the purpose of protecting our manufacture of kelp; the persons engaged in which must now be convinced of the error under which they la boured in supposing that they could compete with the ma nufacturers of barilla. In consequence of the duty on barilla, a vast quantity of fictitious soda had been intro duced into this country. For his part, be thought that a duty of Si. per cent. on an article which entered so exten sively into our various manufactures, for the mere purpose of propping up a particular interest on the coast of Scot land, ought nut to be continued. This was, however, a trifle. Not so the duty on sea-borne coals. At the various periods at which that duty had been imposed—for instance at the early periods of the war—coals were prin cipally used for fuel ; and although the tax fell heavily on individuals, it did not operate on the manufactures of the country. But now, when they had become so important in the latter respect, was it politic or just to compel the manufacturers to establish their works in inland parts, where they could obtain coals at a cheap rate, and by the heavy duty on sea-borne coals to prevent them from establishing their works on the coast ? Whoever would inquire into this subject, be it ever so briefly, would see the extensively injurious effects which this duty occasioned. In the glass manufacture, for ex ample, it had completely driven the manufacturer from the coarser and compelled him to confine himself to the finer articles. Our manufacturers equally suffered. It ap peared to him, therefore, that the duty on sea borne coals was one of the first which ought to be removed. He would not go through tine whole list of 207 dirties, many of which might in his opinion, be advantageously di minished, and others entirely done away; but he would request the particular attention of the House to three— the duties on glass, paper, and printed calicoes. The gross duty on flint glass amounted to 753,000/. ; the net receipt only to 613,0001. ; the difference being sacrificed in the collection. In 1794, the duty on glass being 2ls. 5d., the consumption was 67,000 cwt. By successive impositions, the duty in 1811 had risen to 984. ; in con sequence of which the consumption fell to 28,000 cwt. In 1825 the duty was lowered, and what was the effect? That in 1828 the consumption had risen to 68,000 cwt. — (Hear, hear.)—lt appeared, therefore, that notwith standing the increase of population and general luxury, the consumption of flint glass was no greater in 1818 than it had been in 1794. But here, twain, the duty WAS not the only evil. in the Act upon the eubject the:et ;. ~1.~ were thirty-two clauses, containing r prd hibitions, penalties, &c. all very vexatious and injurious ' to the manufacturer. The duty on flint glass *as 6d. - a pound ; the glass when made selling for a shilling. But the officer had the choice of imposing the duty - either when the glass was in the pan or after it had been- • turned out of the pan. The duty when in the pan was -- 3d. a pound; but owing to circumstances in the process, - 1 th,t was equivalent to Id. in the pound on the glass when :• turned out. When the manufacturer required fine glass, 4 ! as he had to pay the duty upon the whole, he made the. • fine out of the middle, and he was forced to make coarse • "' glass out of the tops and bottoms. He had inquired of many manufacturers, who stated that the whole cost of Excise was 25 per cent., and thus a duty of 100 per cent. • was levied, the price raised to the consumer 25 per cent., besides all the inconvenience to the manufacturer. A ma nufac!urer, who had travelled through France, the Nether lands, and Germany, had assured him that our manufac turers could advantageously cope with foreigners, were it not for the duties imposed by the Government. Labour was as cheap iii this country, our ingenuity wan greater, and mated Is were as cheap ; it was the vexatious, orioaatts duty alone that gave the foreign manufacturer the advan tage over the English. But the effect of the duty was to prevent all improvement in the article, because to im prove, experiments must be made ; but a man with a duty of 225 per cent. over his head was not very likely to make many experiments.—(Hear, hear.)—This argument • applied especially with respect to colours. A manufae- ! ..4 truer had assured him that he had never been able to pro duce a beautiful red, because the duties prevented his try ing the necessary experiments without his incurring a great loss. Thus a miserable duty, amounting to only 613,0001., and upon which a charge of 10 per cent. was made for - coilecting, was allowed to impede our native industry, and • to stop all improvement. He would now come to paper, and he need not state to the House the extreme impoiicy of a tax upon an article, of which an extensively disse minated consumption must be so des'rable. The an nual produce of the tax upon paper was 665,000/. ; but here the penalties and inconveniences of the Ex cise came into play. The penalties upon the manu facturers of paper amounted annually to 100,000/. He held in his hand a letter from one of his consti tuents, a pap,r manufacturer of intelligence, who stated that one of the evils of the tax was, that the Excise officers had the right of entering the manufactories when- '- ever they pleased, and the manufacturer was bound to give 24 or 45 hours' notice before he changed any paper, and • he was obliged to keep it in the mills 24 hours afterwards, before he could send it to market, unless the excise .officer had re-weighed it. Ile was obliged to write 500 labels for the Excise ; and if anybody were to break into the mill and steal them, he should be liable to penalties amounting to 100,0001., and the writer concluded by saying, " I will only add, that the fines and penalties that we are liable - to arise from circumstances under which we have little or no contrmil ; and whilst the law is so confused that it is almost impossible to have any knowledge of it, it is a great annoyance to the honest man, although it is no check to the rogue." Tha Excise Laws were never acted upon to their full extent, but still they conveyed an unlimited power. He would now come to the tax upon printed cali-' coes. This subject had been very ably stated by his Hos. Friend, the Member for Aberdeen, whom he was surprised not to see in his place.—(A laugh, Mr. Hume at this mo ment entered the House.)—This tax to raise 595,0001., imposed a duty of not I, ss than 2,090,000/. But looking at the increased cost of the manufacturer, the inequality of the tax constituted the chief objection. The duty was le vied upon the square yard, and it was 3A-d. a yard upon cloths that cost only 3d. a yard, whilst it was the same upon cloths that cost ss. a yard. This was an excessive evil upon the poor—(Hear, hear)—and it ought to be re medied. All these taxes amounted to 2,626,0001, and by giving up which there would be a gain to the public of 3,500,000/., independent of the removal of great annoy- ances, and the conferring of advantages to trade and en joyments upon the people. The detail of the taxes he should propose to take off, was as follows : _ . . Hemp X 70,000 1; Barilla 7OOOO Coals Glass 500,000 Paper 865,000 Bruited Calicoes Making in round numbers £2,613,000 • Ile should be told that if he proposed to take off such , taxes, he ought to be prepared to substitute some others. Ile believed that an amount equal to this might be made by a reduction of some of the establishments. It had been proposed to subject bequests of landed property to the duties levied upon legacies of personal property, and upon this alone a revenue of 1,500,0007. a year might be raised. —(Hear, hear.)—But the taxation which he proposed to take off might find some other substitutes; and therefore he should pass to what he considered the most important point for the consideration of the Committee—he meant the principle of a reduction of duties without injuring the revenue. He alluded to five branches of indirect taxation, upon articles which eaten d into the consumption of all classes of the people, and which amounted to 15,592,000/. Upon sugar, the duties levied amounted to 500,0001. ; upon tea, to 3,170,000/ ; on tobacco, 2,793,0001. ; upon foreign spirits, 2,500,0007., and upon wine, to 1,699,000/. If the House, by diminishing rates and duties upon these, would increase consumption, and not injure the revenue, it would confer a most important benefit upon the country , . —(Hear, hear.)—lf there were one principle more true than another in the whole history of taxation throughout the world, and more especially in this country, it is the , axiom of Dean Swift that two and two in political arith-- Rh tie did not always make four, for it sometimes made only one. If he wished for an instance to show how com pletely fallacious were the hopes of financiers upon raising duties, he had only to go to the history of this country or of Ireland, where they should find it written in letters that ought to shame those that stood in need of the proof or the illustration. In 1807 the revenue of Ireland was 3,397,0001. At the close of the war new taxes were im posed, which were calculated by the Chancellor of the Ex chequer to raise the revenue by 3,100,2007., which was afterwards reduced by 400,0001. The revenue which ought theretOre in 1812 to have been 3,000,0001. more than it had been in 1807, was found to be only 2,841,000/. or 553,000/. less than before the additional taxes had been levied. This was one example of increasing taxes in order to raise the Revenue. It bad been shown, by papers laid be fore the FinaneeiCornmittee, that although taxes had been taken off in this country, mince the war, to the extent of 9,000,0001, the increased consumption had so augmented the Puente', that it had fallen off by only 3,700,0001. With examples such as these staring them in the face, caul(' the House for one moment doubt that if they acted in a similar way they would meet with similar results ? The first of the articles he should take in going into de tails would be wine. A century ago, this country con sumed annually 14,000 hogsheads of French wine, he meant from Bordeaux ; and now the annual consumption was scarcely 1,400. The consumption in 1791, after Mr. Pitt had carried into effect his Commercial Treaty with France, anti lowered the (hay on their wines, from which this country would have derived the greatest be nefits, in Great Britain, exclusive of Ireland, the consump tion of Bordeaux wine, from 1191 to 1793, was 27,000 gallons, the import duty being 3s. 9d. the gallon ; and the Consumption of all other wines was 7,500,000 gallons, the duty being 2s. 3d. In 1813, when the duty had been raised three hundred and twenty per cent., the consump tion of French wines decreased to 36,000 gallons from 276,000, and the revenue was only 73,0001. ; so that the consumption!, had decreased to less than one-sixth ; and the revenue, although the duty was so greatly increased, was very little more than it had been before. But now he would take the general statement of wines. From 1820 to 1822, the average consumption, when the duties had lowered from Mr. Vansittart's high duties—for his name was always coupled with high duties—(Laughter)—from Mr. Vansittart's duty of 16s. sd. to lls. sd. on French, and to 7s. Bd. on other foreign wine—the average consumption had been 171,000 gallons of French wine, paying a duty of 102,0001. ; t h e tota l consumpt i on of al l sorts of wine, including French, was 5,000,000 gallons, yielding a revenue of 1,803,0 00 /. Wi t h i ncreased popn lation and increased means, between 1791 and 1822, the consumption of wine had fallen off from 7,500,000 to 5,000,000 gallons, and the revenue had been raised to only 1,803,000/. In 1825, the duty was lowered on French wines, and the consumption was raised to 550,000 gallons, and the revenue to 136,000/., and the total consumption of wine was 7,590,000 gallons, yielding a revenue of 1,506,000/. ; so that in 1828, the consumption was just as much as it had been upon time average from 1791 to 1793. But this was nothing compared to Ireland. In that country, from 1789 to 1790, when the duty me 11/. 7s. a hogshead, the consumption of French wine had been 490,000 gallons ; the duty was raised to 44/. 9s. 4d., to 1057., and lastly, by Mr. Vansittart to 136/. and then the duty tear assimilated to that of England. What was the effect of this ? Front 1820 to 1822, the consumption of French wines was 21,000 gallons ; and the total consumption of all wines had been as high as 556,000 gallons, the revenue being 188,0001. In short; the duty had been raised five hundred per cent, and by which the revenue had increased only 30 per cent., and the consumption had diminished 600 per cent. He believed ' that if the duties upon French wines were now to be re duced to 35., the revenue would be full as much as at present. H e toi ;ht be told that a treaty was in the way, tui that ib was not right to do anything now; but he the tit( gal eat cei O m dit off w gn wc tea ,Jul for th ; lik