The Sun. — London, England, 1830-02-12 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS.—(LAST NIGHT.) AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS. Viscount GODERICEI presented a petition from the proprietors and occupiers of land at Stow on•the-Wold, and vicinity, in the county of Glou cester, complaining of the distress under which they laboured, and suggesting, as a partial remedy, tlie repeal of the Acts which impose duties on Malt. and Beer. The Noble Viscount said, that as the subject of complaint urged by the petitioners would shortly come before their Lordships for discussion, ne would not then enter into any statement, depre cating, as he did, all isolated discussions upon sub jects, considering them as leading to no beneficial result. The petition was then read, and laid on the table. Their Lordships sat a few minutes only, there being no itsusiness before the House. All the Ministers were present. The Opposition benches were nearly unoccupied. HOUSE OF COMMONS-(LAST NIGHT.) The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock. A Gentleman from the Court of Chancery pre tented a return of the number of persons at present in confinement for contempt of Court. • A nurnlwr of Plivate Road and Enclosure Bill: were passed through their respective stages. Mr. LEGGE presented a petition f•om the Mayor and Burgesses of the town of Denbigh, praying a reduction in the Malt and Beer Duties.— Ordered to be printed. GAME LAWS. Mr. MUNDY presented a petition from the Ma rristrates of the county of Derby, for a revocation of the Game Laws.—Orderecl !o b• printed. EAST RETFORD. Mr. S..kVILLE LUMLEY presented a petition from the Burgesses of Dot Retford, praying a New Writ might issue for the return of a Member o sit in Parliament for that borough.—The petition was ordered to be printed.' THF. POOR LAWS. Mr. SLANEY gars notice of a motion respecting the Poor Laws for Thursday, 18th inst. Mr. DUNCONIBE presented a petition from numerous inhabitants of Boroughbridge, Yorkshire, complaining of the general d - stress of the country, and praying for economy in the public expenditure, the reduction of the Malt and Beer Duties, and an alteration of the Licensing System and Corn Laws. —The petition was ordered to be printed. REVISION OF THE POOR LAWS. Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from a town in Ireland, the name of which was not heard ti the gallery, ptaying for a revision of the Statutes and Common Law of the country, so that the laws might be rendered " intelligible, cheap, and expedi tious." lie (Mr. O'Connell) had been many years its the profession, and had reason to know full well that they were neither intelligible, cheap, nor ex peditious, and every year convinced him of the ne cessity of a complete revision, both as regarded the Statutes, so very voluminous, as also the Common Law of the country. The petition also prayed that the draft of an intelligible Code might be pre pared, so that a subject might be able to know the laws be was bound to obey.—The petition was or dered to he printed. NEWSPAPER PRESS 1N IREI AM). Mr. O'CONNELL moved for a return of the Number of Newspaper Stamps used throughout Ire land, during the year ending on the .sth of January last.—Ordered. Mr. O'CONNELL also moved for a return of the sums paid for the insertion of Proclamations, specifying the difTerent newspapers, and the place of publication.—Ordered. Sir JAMES GRAHAM presented a petition from William Myers, a prisoner, confined in the ca , tie of Carlisle, praying (as we understood) for an alteration in the regulations of that gaol. SMUGGLING. Lord G. LENOX obtained leave to bring in a Bill for the relief -of parishes from the expenses of maintaining the wives and families of men convicted tinder the laws for the prevention of smuggling,and sentenced to serve in his Majesty's navy. Mr. KENNEDY (as we understood) rose to call fir an explanation from the Admiralty, respecting their treatment of a man of the name of Millar, who had been sentenced in December, 1824, to serve on board one of his Majesty's ships for the space of five years, in consequence of his participation in some smuggling transactions. On the 23d of December of last year the term of his imprisonment expired, and he then applied, but in vain, for his release. He repeated the same application on his arrival at Ply mouth ; his Officer forwarded the application to the Admiralty, who returned for answer that the man shonhl be paid off w ith the rest of the crew on his arrival at Portsmouth. A few days afterwards the vessel arrived in Portsmouth harbour, and then Mil lar firmly, but respectfully, refused to perform the duty expected from him. In consequence he was thrown into irons, and Captain Elliott, his Com mander, who appeared to have acted through out the business with great discretion, ap. plied to the Admiralty for directions how he was t o act. A Court-martial was ordered to sit upon Mil lar; and by that Court-martial, in consequence of the peculiar circumstances of the case, and of the contrition he expressed, lie was only reprimanded, told to be more cautious in future, and discharged. The lion. Member said that he would make no comment upon these facts : he would merely af.k for an explanati on of the authority by which all this had been done. Sir G. CLERK gave a history of the acts of Par liament by which smup., , lers were permitted to serve on board of his Majesty's ships in lieu of being im prisoned for the pecuniary penalties to which they had rendered themselves liable by transgressing the law, and contended, from a review of them, that there was not one of them which limited the time of service to five years. The first question, there fore, to be considered in Millar's case was this—had he a right to claim his discharge at the end of five years ? And then, supposing, for the sake of argu ment, that he had such right, was he, being on full pay on board, authorized to disobey the orders of his commanding officer ? He (Sir G. Clerk) con tended that on both those points the decision must be clearly against Nlillftr. As to the question why the man had been tried by court-martial, the answer was easy. The Admiralty felt that as the question had been raised by Millar, without his having a shadow of legal ground on which to rest it, it would be for the benefit of the service to have Millar tried by a court-martial, in order to have greater publicity given to their decision. Her• the anatter dropped. SIR JOHN PETER GRANT. Dr. PIIILLIMORE wished to ask the Right Hon. Gent. opposite, whether any absolute order had been sent out by his Majesty's Government for the recall of Sir John Peter Grant from his situation of Judge in the Supreme Court of Bombay ? Mr. PEEL answered, that no steps had been taken for the removal of the Learned Gent. FEES IN CRIMINAL COURTS. Mr. PEEL gate notice that he would on the 17th of February move for leave to bring in a Bill for the abolition of all fees required from individuals when acquitted, on their discharge from any criminal court. BOROUGH OF EAST RETFORD. Mr. N. CALVERT said, that as the case of the borough of East Retford had been well known for several years, he did not mean, in bringing forward his motion, to trouble the House at any length. He had no personal feeling in this question; and he thought it very hard that any such motive should be attributed to him. His object was one of strict justice and fairness. Under all the circumstances, he should say no more at present, except to claim his right to reply to any of the old arguments and objections that might be raised against his motion. The Hon. Gent. then moved for leave to brill in a 1)111 " To prevent bribery and corruption in the bo rcugh of Elist Retford." Alf! lia ls iNY6olN bogcd that be ;Uvula n 9; be accused of pertinacity, if, after so many decisions against extending the forfeited franchise of Fast Retford to the town of Birmingham, he still perse vered in Nvhat he considered a just cause. He now rose to propose an amendment on the motion of his Hon. Friend. On this occasion he was labouring under a new embarrassment. The last time this question was discussed, he believed it appeared that the average opinion of the people of Birmingham was, that the measure he proposed would give them perfect satisfaction. But since that period, a con siderable change had taken place in the average opinion. The general distress had created a great alteration of opinion ; and the people attributed that distress to the general corruption, neglect, and mis conduct of Parliament. The consequence was, that at Birmingham they had taken steps for their own protection. This, however, should not discourage him. He would still go on, and endeavour to ob tain his original object. He bad, last session, urged on the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, the neces sity of extending the benefit of representation to the great commercial and manufacturing towns. — Government, however, seemed anxious to keep up the old state of things, at the expence of the country, and, he mast say, at the expence of com mon sense. Under these circumstances, he felt it to be his duty to pursue the course he had formerly taken. That tl:e right of electing Members to sit in Parliament should be taken from East Retford, on account of its notorious corruption, did not, he thought, admit of dispute. It was proved that in the election of 1526, out of 166 persons who voted, 155 received bribes. It had been pro posed to extend the franchise to the hundred of Bassetlaw ; but the freeholders of Bassetlaw were already represented by two Honourable Gentle men—he meant the Members for Nottingham;— while many populous towns—for instance— Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham, and Sheffield, were unrepresented. It was riot only absurd, but it was dangerous, to withhold the benefits of repre sentation from places such as these; for he felt that, in times of pressure, a catastrophe would be the certain result of that want of representation. The Hon. Gent. then alluded to the political union so ciety recently established at Birmingham. He read a long extract from the prospectus of that society, and argued that it would be most prudent, by giv ing to Birmingham the right of electing Represen tatives, to form a link between that political union arid the Howe. He concluded by moving, " That all the words after that' be omitted, for the pur pose of introducing the following Leave be given to bring in a Bill to exclude the borough of East Retford from electing burgesses to serve in Parliament, and to enable the town of Birmingham to return two Representatives in lieu thereof.' Mr. MARSHALL seconded the motion. Mr: BATLEY thought it was contrary to the principle of the Constitution that such towns as Leeds, Birmingham, and Sheffield, should not be properly represented. But he certainly would not benefit those towns by disfranchising other places. Viscount HOWICK,in consequence of this ques tion having been introduced so soon, was precluded from making the motion of which he hail given notice. He meant, however, to vote for the pro position of the Hon. Member for Bletchingley ; and if it were not carried, it would then be open to him to move his own resolution as an amendment to the original motion. The Hon. Member for Hert fordshire had moved for leave to bring in a Bill to prevent bribery and corruption in the borough of East Retford ; and the motion which he (Viscount Howick) had meant to propose, it he had come down in time, would go to de clare, " that the abuses which were alleged to exist in East Retford, were not confined to that town, but were notorious in many cities and boroughs in the United Kingdom." Such was his opinion ; and therefore he thought it was much better to pro pose a general remedy for a general evil, instead of applying particular remedies to particular places,—a course which experience showed did not serve any good purpose, and was positively bad in practice, He originally voted for the motion to disfranchise this borough, not to punish the electors for the crime laid to their charge, but in order that the franchise taken from East Retford should be given to Birmingham, which, as an improvement in the representation, was an alteration desirable to be pro cured. But the experience of the last three Ses sions bad greatly changed his views on the subject; and he agreed with the Hon. Member who had last spoken, that it w ould be better to extend the fran chise directly to great commercial and manufactur ing towns, rather than to benefit them by disfran chising other places. lie felt that, in taking a con trary course, the friends of reform were playing the game of their opponents, and lending their counte nance to that which, however gravely put forward, was neither more nor less than a mockery and a de lusion.—(Hear.)—The House ought to be cautious in dealing with cases of this kind. The doctrine laid down with respect to them was, that punish ment should not be inflicted On all, except all were shown to have been guilty. This doctrine was per fectly just. But the present proceeding was op posed to it; for here punishment was not regularly inflicted by the regular course of law. This was a Bill of Pains and Penalties,—an ex post facto law, —by which the Parliament was constituted judge, jury, and executioner. No man, be was sure, could seriously say that bribery could be put an end to by disfranchising any particular place. The proper re medy would be to adopt a general measure, instead of pursuing this dilatory and uncertain course—a course as dilatory and as uncertain us the Court of Chancery. He very much feared that the motives of many of those who supported this measure of dis franchisement were not exactly what at first sight they appeared to be. lie believed that it was not the crime of bribery which excited their indignation, but the clumsiness with which it was effected.— (Hear.) - •They did not wish to put an end to those abuses, but to keep them from the public eye, and to conceal from the light of day their own secret crimes.—(Hear, hear.) ----This it was that induced them to vote for the disfranchisement of East Ret ford. Such was his belief; but he certainly did not expect a motive of this kind would have been openly proclaimed by a Right Hen. Member in that House. He alluded to the Right lion. Member for Liver. pool, who, in a speech delivered by him last year (a speech which he did not hear, but which he had read with astonishment), used the following remark able words :—" What, then remains behind ? Par liamentary Reform. I trust it will long remain behind. I trust we shall always be able to resist that reform. I am sure, if the motion of the lion. Member for Bletchingley is lost, the difficulty of resisting Parliamentary Reform will be greatly in creased." He (Viscount Howick) felt no difficulty in understanding the meaning of the Right Hon. Gentleman. He had here made an admission for which he thanked hint. Individuals who thought as the Right lion. Gentleman did, were willing to give up some of the outworks of corruption, that they might be the better enabled to defend the prin cipal strong hold. They thought that East Retford ought to be sacrificed, in order to prevent the whole system of corruption from being overturned. Just as in a bull-fight a cloak is dropped to turn aside the rage of the mad animal, while his assailant pre pares more securely to destroy him. Were the pub lic ignorant of the undue means by which a large majority of the members of that House obtained their seats in it, we might declaim against the vena lity of the voters of East Retford ; but, notorious as these circumstances were, he thought it better to pass over the present case in silence till we were prepared to deal with others equally flagitious. It might be hopeless to obtain complete reform at present, but we might at least abstain from such' hypocrisy and insincerity as to pass a Bill against an individual rotten borough when so many more demanded equal punishment. He trusted that a dread of public contempt, if no better motive, would prevent the House from taking such a course, and that if not disposed to adopt the natural plan for the prevention of bribery and corruption, they would eject the Bill of the Hon. Member for Hertford : blue r WIN P.M* iond waclade4 by reading a series of resolutions declaring the prevalence of bribery at elections, and stating that the character of the House would be best maintained by abandoning useless and expensive proceedings against particular boroughs, and adopting comprehensive measures of reform. Mr. O'CONNELL could not content himself with giving n silent vote on this occasion. Being himself a radical reformer, and desiring a complete and thorough reform in every thing corrupt in the country, he was anxious to make an example in every particular case of corruption that came within the general rule. He thought the Hon. Member for Beverley mistaken when he stated that the House %vas now called upon to act in a judicial ca pacity, and decide whether the electors of East Ret• ford had been guilty of bribery and corruption, and that the fact was not proved against the borough on the occasion of the last election. If the fact were not proved, then certainly the Hon. Gentle man ought to oppose the Bill of the Hon. Member for Hertfordshire, which proceeded on the supposi tion that bribery and corruption existed. The Hon. Gentleman argued that bribery was not proved.— He (Mr. O'Connell) had read the evidence in the case, and was convinced that East Retford conti nued a sink of bribery and corruption up to the pre sent moment. It was quite true that the existence of bribery, on a recent occasion, had not been proved, because the time of payment had not ar rived : the bribes were due, but had not been then paid. The voters sent Members into the House, and gave credit for the bribes, putting faith in the parties for the 40 guineas a piece. The Noble Lord (Howick) seemed to think that as all the roters of East Retford had not been proved guilty, all should not be punished; and argued, that though there might be a guilty majority, yet there was an inno cent minority, whom it would be wrong to visit with punishment for the faults of others. But let it be recollected that boroughs acted by mejerities— that majorities, and not minorities, sent members to Parliament ; so that, supposing a few voters to be free from corruption, yet was the borough corrupt for all purposes of representation : consequently, the majority ought to be punished, and the bo rough prevented from ever again sending Mem bers to that House. His opinion was, that the right of representation ought not to belong to any private individual.—(Hear, hear.) He had heard and believed that many Members sat in Par liament who were the nominees of Noble Lords, but this was a contradiction in terms of the spirt and letter of the Constitution. Let us not talk of the Constitution, if Noble Lords, contrary to the resolution of the House, send their nominees here, as I know they do,—to be sure I do—(Laughter)— every one knows that there are actual nominees of Peers sitting in Parliament. The period would come when the people could no longer be deluded upon this subject. The principle of the Constitu tion was, that the Crown could not touch a penny of any man ' s property in the shape of taxes, ex cept through his legal representative; and if taxes were levied upon persons not duly represented, it was, in point of principle, a direct fraud. He should vote for every measure of reform, and for this among the number. Why let East Retford escape, because as the Noble Lord said, its punish ment would be the punishment of a single corrupt borough, when so many others sore equally cor rupt ? Ought the attack to fail, on the ground of its being an isolated one ? Suppose that, during the late severe snows, 150 wolves, compelled by the inclemency of the weather, had descended [ruin the Pyre's:tees into France; that after having done a great deal of mischief the inhabitants rose against them, and one of the number was clumsy enough to get himself into a corner while the others escaped : would the people say, " Oh, this is an isolated indi vidual, let us not kill him till we can get at the other 149, who are quite as bad as he." He, for one, would not act upon this principle : he should vote for extinguishing the franchise of East Ret ford, and transferring the privilege of electing Mem bers of Parliament to Birmingham. Lord NORMANBY agreed with the Noble Lord (Howick) that the voters of East Retford were not singly or peculiarly guilty, but was of opinion, that as their case had been brought forward, and their guilt proved, an example should be made of therm. He wished to take advantage of their delinquency, for the purpose of making a beneficial change in the representation, and transferring the elective fran chise of East Retford to Birmingham. Mr. HUSKISSON could not give a silent vote on this question. Still recollecting that oily a few months had passed since, at an advanced period of the last session of Parliament, he had had an op portunity of stating fully (as he did) his views of the subject nosy under consideration, he did not think it necessary to go again over the ground which he had then traversed. But he must be allowed to say that every thing which had occurred within the last few months—every thing which was now passing— every thing in the condition of the country, which even those who ran could read—every thing that oc curred in every quarter—pointed out to him, as to every dispassionate observer, the great and increas ing importance and it thorough conviction of the ne cessity of dealing with a corrupt and rotten borough like East Retford, not by extending tle franchise to the adjoining hundred of Bassetlaw, the inhabitants of which had already votes for Nottinghaneshire, but by disfranchising it altogether, and tranferring the elective privilege to the great and populous town of Birmingham, which was altogether unrepresented, (Hear.) —He felt the increasing and urgent import ance of this in reference to the general question of reform ; end he was riot afraid to avow his feeling, as he now did, that it was of the utmost importance we should deal with the matter under consideration so as best to guard ourselves against the growing danger of sweeping reform on principles too abstract and general. He avowed that to be his feelingonn called upon others who thought with him upon the subject to take tip this defensive position against the dangers which pressed upon us from every quarter. If by the influence of his Majesty's Government in this House he should be driven from the position which he now occupied,—if the present proposition for a moderate and reasonable reform were defeated by means of that influence,—much as he should regret it, he should be driven, very reluctantly, to fall hack upon another position, which would also be defensive. Taking, as he now did, time best situa tion and point of defence he could command against large, wild, and sweeping innovations upon our esta blished institutions, he would maintain it as long as practicable, and when driven from it, as he might be by the means alluded to, he should then take up another line of de fence. His principle was, to deal with the evil that came before us, in order to confine the remedy, if possible, to the immediate case which appeared to require its a pplication,—an object best attained by a speedy a dministration of the remedy. Wh en h e said, hypothetically, that if the amendment of the Hon. Member for Bletchingley were lost, it rrould be lost by means of ministerial influence in that House, he used expressions which were perfectly Parliamentary; and he would add, that that in fluence had been exercised to the utmost extent to which it could be legitimately pushed in cases like the present.—(Hear.)—lt was seen, that where no influence had been exercised, the view and intention of Parliament was to transfer the elective franchise from a corrupt borough to the important town of Leeds.—(Hear, hear.)—As far as the matter de pended on the House of Commons, they had ad mitted the principle of conferring upon the great towns that had grown up to their present magni tude and importance in proportion to the growth and increase of our wealth and commercial resources, a substantial representation. The representation of Penryn, as far as that House was concerned,—as far as the Commons House of Parliament could, — was to have been transferred to Manchester. Now, when it was peculiarly necessary to show sympathy with the productive classes,—when it was necessary to give them the means of laying a fair statement of their sufferings before Parliament, with a view to an attempt to relieve them,—there should be a ter:- (. 1 ."/ on t h e par; of the kiouse to transfer the fran chise of this corrupt borough to the town of Bir minglialln—(Hear.)—From the bottom of his heart he said so, and with the utmost sincerity; with a deep sense of the general and profoend feeling pos sessing the minds of the men of this country, not of the ignorant and uninformed rabble, but of men of education and intellect, as competent as the members of that House to form a sound and judicious opinion upon the circumstances of the country. Looking at the unsettled and disquieted suite of mind prevailing among such persons,—a state of mind that existed not only in reference to their own circumstances, but in reference to the condition of the industrious, agricultural, and manufacturing po pulation of the country,—it would be most gratify ing to his feelings, as doubtless it would be to those of the great mass of the community, if they could persuade themselves that among his Majesty's Mi nisters there did exist a just sense of what the Com• mons House of Parliament ought to be in the practi cal administration and working of the Constitution of the country. The events which had taken place of late years might have taught Ministers a little practical wisdom—(Hear) —and they might also have derived instruction from the working and con sequences of these events. As much as any man he rejoiced at the repeal of the Corporation end Test Acts.—(Hear,) —As much as any man he re joiced at every vestige of the Roman Catholic penal code having been effaced from the pages of our statute-book.—(Hear.) —As much as any man he rejoiced that the improved spirit of the age had wrung from Governments successive concessions in fa vour of liberty, concessions in favour of intelligence, concessions in favour of commerce, concessions in favour of general improvement ; but when we looked at the history of these concessions, was it creditable to, or consistent with, the character of the Legislature of this country, we should always appear to grant such concessions only at the moment when prudence and necessity compelled us no longer to withhold them ?—(Hear.)—Under a deep impression, a firm conviction, that many other in dividuals took is similar view of the subject, and entertaining a hope that his Majesty's Ministers would be alive to the changes that were working around them, he entertained some faint hopes (he confessed they were only faint) that Government would feel disposed to reconsider the question now before the House, and treat it in a manner different from that in which it was treated by them in the last Session of Parliament. He did not wholly despair of its being re-considered when lie heard the Noble Lord, who moved the Address with as ability and good feeling which did him infinite credit, stating the reasons that induced him, after having sat for 17 years in Parliament, to undertake a task generally assigned to younger Members, and oleo entering into an explanation of the grounds upon which he occupied, for the first time, a place upon the Ministerial benches. The Noble Lord had thought it necessary to state :the reasons that induced him to more the Address, and he did so with great propriety. He told the House that during 17 years he had been a constant friend and supporter of liberal principles of Government,—that he had seen with satisfaction the advances re cently made towards such principles, and that he hailed with pleasure the circumstance of his Ma jesty's Ministers having adopted any measures that had been recommended by the other side of the House. The Noble lord supported the present Go vernment because, formoth, they were a Tory ad ministration governing on Whig principles.—(Hear.) - When he heard this sentiment cheered by so many Hon. Gentlemen at the period of its being first tittered by the Noble Lord, he might be ex cused if he found ground for hope in the fact. It was also necessary to bear in mind the fact that Ministers had appointed to the office of first law adviser of his Majesty in that House, a Learned Gent., who was Attorney-General when his late lamented Friend Mr. Canning was at the head of the Administration. By the way, upon that occa sion, as on the present, the Noble Lord (Darling ton) appeared anxious to support the existing Ad ministrsiion in common with many of his friends, because the course taken by it was consistent with their views and feelings. Another Right Hon. Member (Mr. Abercromby) who was appointed to a high official situation by Mr. Canning, had been recently promoted to a place upon the bench in Scotland by the present Government.—(hear, hear.) —He greatly rejoiced that this appointment had taken place. He had long known that excellent individual, he had long known the value of his public character, and the extent of his private vir tues, lie would now say of that gentle:nen in his absence (the House being unfortunately for itself deprived of the advantage of his services) what he would not have said in his presence,—namely, that a person of a sounder or more correct mind—of greater sterling good sense—of a more honest and uncompromisieg spirit he did not know. That Right lion. Person would carry into his high office a reso lute and honest determination to reform abuses if they existed. A litter person to fill the situation allotted to him could not have been recommended to his Majesty. He rejoiced at the appointment, and sincerely thanked the King's Ministers for it.— (Hear, hear.) —Connecting all these concessions and appointments (at which he rejoiced as proofs that the spirit which actuated the government of Mr. Canning had not been entirely lost sight of,) he said he rejoiced, and why ?—because he thought it possible that the application of the principle of concessions might also have been extended to the present question.—(Hear.)—He felt the more con fident in his expectation, because each and every one of the individuals who now cheered the Government for acting on Whig principles had been among the most zealous supporters of such reforms. A near con nection of the noble mover of the Address, since ele vated to the House of Peers, but who then represented the county of Durham in Parliament, had supported such a measure. But if it was tobe understood from the silence of Ministers that they still adhered to their former line of conduct with respect to the question now before the House, that they intended to support the extension of the elective franchise to the hundred of Bassetlaw, he, for one, should deeply lament it, because, under such circumstances, he thought that the impression occasioned out of doors by such a course would be far from favourable to the general interests of the country.—(Hear.)—lt was quite impossible that any one in the situation in which he stood with respect to a town of equal importance with Manchester, Birmingham, or Leeds, one of the greatest towns in point of wealth, and power, and importance, in the commercial transactions of the country, it was quite impossible that he should not almost daily ask himself the question, " How was it possible for him, a member for Liverpool, to doubt the importance of such a town as Birmingham, of such a town as Manchester, of such a town as Leeds, being represented in Parliament ?" His constituents must feel how incompetent he was to discharge the duties assigned him us their r epresentative, but still he was prepared to say fiom the frequent communica tions he had with them (from which he derived much material information to hisown great benefit and better qualification for the discharge of his duties in Parlia ment), he was prepared to say that his constituents would freely admit that the fact of their having re presentatives in Parliament was a great and substan tial benefit to them. lie could not flatter himself that he had been nominated upon the East India com mittee appointed last night, out of any compli ment to himself as an humble individual doubtless his name was upon the list, because lie represented a wea l t hy, active, and important community. Then he asked himself if Birmingham, Manchester, and Leeds, had also representatives in Parliament, would the House have been able or inclined to ex clude them from being heard through such Repre sentatives, upon an occasion so important to their interest ? It would have been impossible that such a thing should have taken place. Last summer he had spent a fortnight among his constituents at Liverpool, and a shorter period at Alanches , ter, the great seat of th e manufacturing interests. communications he had had with the most influen tial and intelligent persons in both those places, lie claire(' much 1 , 411144 v infclinatio couccted their peculiar interests and those' of the country at large,—information which he never could have ac quired from formal deputations to the Board of Trade. It was by duly considering the results of such intercourse, and collecting general opinions on given subjects, that, the interests of the country could be best consulted. Why, then, should places capable of affording such sources of information be excluded from the advantages of representation ? When he proposed that the name of Mr. Marshall, the Member for Yorkshire, should be placed upon the East India Committee in the room of that of the lion. Member for Sussex, because his Friend the Member for York had paid considerable attention to the subject of India, and the Ilon. Member for Sussex had not, what did his Right I-ion. Friend (Mr. Peel) say in answer to his proposition ? Why, that the Committee was very numerous,—that he had endea voured to select and place in it some representatives of every separate interest in the country, and that the lion. Member for Sussex had been nominated be cause he represented the wool interest.—(Laugh ter.)-1-le owned that the gravity with which his Right lion. Friend stated his reason about the wool interest had nearly overcome his—(A laugh) —and he felt disposed to ask whether there was a county Member in the House who did not repre sent something of the wool interest—(l.mughter) as well as other interests connected with agricul- tore ? When his Right Hon. Friend talked 'of the wool interest being represented by the - Alember for Sussex, he (Mr. Huskisson) asked the Hon. Mem ber for Staffordshire, who was also in the Com mittee, and indirectly represented the hardware and • mineral interests of which Birmingham was the centre, whether those interests did not deserve to be directly represented in that House ? Dhl not these interests form one of the great branches of our national resources ? Was the great town of Birming ham unrepresented, or the hundred of Bsssetlaw re presented, as regarded wool, by the Member for Sussex, and as regarded every thing else by the two Members for I\ ottinghemshire, the worthier of sending Members to Parliament ? But he turned from this point, which was merely a question in tween Bassetlaw and Birmingham, and one that did not admit of a doubt, and came to another conside- I ration. He saw in Birmingham lately an association • which, as far as he could perceive its elements, princi ples, and operations, seemed exactly formed on the model of the Catholic Association ; for it had its subscriptions, its funds, its meetings, its discus sions, and its great agitator.—(Herr, hear, and laughter.)—The purpose of this association was to raise a universal cry for Parliamentary Reform, — to carry the question by exaggerating the difficul ties, abuses, and distresses of the country. Ad miring, as he did, the talent of the gentleman who presided at the Birmingham meeting, he, for one, would much rather see that gentlemen in the House of Commons—(Hear) --as fortunately he saw the lion. Member for Clare in the House of Commons — (Hear, and a laugh)—he would rather see the chairman of the Birmingham meeting here as the re presentative of that town, than in presiding: over such an association, sending forth these statements and appeals to the country, which was perhaps too prone, at the present moment, to act on the appre hensions generated by them. These were the rea sons which induced him to support the amendment proposed by the lion. Member for Bletchingley. If it were lost, he should have no farther concern in the business ; for it seemed almost indifferent to him (at least he found little consolation in the alt,,r native), whether the representation remained in the rotten borough of East Retford, or was extended to the adjoining hundred of Bassetlaw.--(Hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could assure the House that he was by no means unwilling to give an opinion on the present ques tion. His silence hitherto had arisen from de ference to his Right Hon. Friend who had just sat down; and who, having been referred to in the dis cussion, he supposed would wish to avail himself of the earliest opportunity of replying to the allusions that had been made.—(Hear, hear.)—hie had also another reason for his silence. This was not the first occasion on which this question had come be fore them. The House had, seven or eight times, declared that the franchise of East Retford should be transferred to the hundred of Bassetlaw, and he thought there could be no doubt on the mind of any min that he should adhere to his former conduct, and to the former conduct of the House, in shaping their course on the present occasion. Ile certainly should Note for the motion of the Hon. Member fur Hertfordshire, because that motion was, in his opi nion, most consonant with his views of reform. His Right Hon. Friend had said that he was no reformer. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) begged to claim for himself the privilege of disclaiming that title also. His Right Hon. Friend, however, thought by the course he proposed to adopt he should op (pkorseemtilyiee w p i o k s t i e t r ior s i cl a l g em ai e n a st of all refm a o t r tem , and tapts tokecuaprrya such schemes into effect. But he (the Chan cellor of the Exchequer) on the other hand thought his course was most consistent with the constitution of that Howe. He thought that there was great danger in going even one step towards general reform,—and such a step he thought this to b e. Hi s Right Hon. Friend had told them how important it was that Birmingham, and Leeds, and Manchester, and other great towns should send re presentatives to that House; and, by what his Right lion. Friend had said on that subject, he had plainly indicated that whenever a measure for giving representatives such places might be brought for ward, he would so depart from the general views ha had laid down, as to vote for those measures. — (Hear.)—His Right Hon. Friend had clearly inti mated a disposition to go these further lengths. In so doing, his Right Hon. Friend might think that he was only taking up a defensive position still; hut by such a course his Right Hon. Friend would most assuredly go on shifting his position in sucha way that, though his Right Hon. Fr iend mi g ht stil l mean to act on the defensive, there would, at last, be nothing left to defend.—(llear.)—His Right Hon. Friend, too, had tried to throw upon the Govern ment the odium, if odium it was to be considered, of not going the length he wished the House to go ; a n d said that in the event of the rejection of the motion he supported,he should feel relieved from the restrictions which, until now, he had imposed upon himself. If, however, his Right lion. Friend was really desirous of maintaining the constitution of that House, and of opposing all sweeping measures of reform, h. would find that the course which he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) proposed to adopt was at once the most prudent and the best calculated for those views which his Right Hon. Friend professed to en tertain. lie had said, and he begged leave to re peat, that he was no reformer. He was quite sure that the House of Commons, as at present consti tuted, surpassed any similar body in any other country, and he chose rather to remain in the secure possession of these certain advantages than trust to any theoretical views, however specious, for uncer tain benefits. Yet, though no reformer, he had never opposed the punishment of corruption : but at the same time he did not seek out cases of Forrup onthoef tion with the view of gaining reformsin Parliament, but merely in order to pu nis h delin q uents. The the this nature he siou. In the cases of Gram p ound sad Penr y n it was a p i r ) e p e r e e d h e e i t i t t d s e o d f not he thought advisa ble to transfer the franchises to was house following iri subjectsg the neighbouring hundreds; and for this reason— that the hundreds abounded in boroughs,—that the adjacent country, in fact, was so studded with boroughs that no new voters could be got to infuse life into the decayed place. lie aim fore had voted that the franchise of Penryn should be transferred to Leeds. His Right Hon. Friend taxed them with inconsistency because they did not adopt, with respect to East Retford, the same course they had adopted in the cases of Grampoubd and Penryn. But let him ask his Right Hon. Friend hcw long he had entertained these opinions ? In the case of Penryn, the late Mr. Canning, who then led the House, so far from being inclined to advance a step, and to give the franchise to a large town in order to take ups defensive position, declared hi• wish and intention that Ive should infuse new voters into Pen ryn from the eircurnjacent country.—(Hear, hear.) —He did not rec)lleet whether his Right Hon.. Friend voted with Mr. Cunning on that occasion. But his Right Hon. Friend had enlarged on the im portance of represen - ation to large commercial towns. For his own part he was the last person to under rate the repreF•entation of the commercial inlerests ; but when his Right Hon. Friend said that those in terests were no , reprerwnted in the House of Com- Infms, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was totally at issue wi:h trim. Ile would not detahi the House longer. Since the former decisions of the House on this 5 übjert, he had seen nothing to altrr his opinion. He ••Itorild, therefore, adhere to the vote he hail formerly givtn. Mr. CHARLES GRANT rose amidst cries of " Question !'' which, however, subsided directly he was on his legs. The Right lion. Member said that he had heard, with very great surprise, the speech of his Right Hon. Friend who had just fiat down. His Right Hon. Friend was not only in coesistent with himself, but equally inconsistent with what had fallen from his Right lion. Friend the Member for Liverpool. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had commenced a most angry attack upon the speech of his Right Hon. Friend; but what was really the position which his Right Hon. Friend had maintained ? All he had said was, that he would take up a defensive position; and that he thought it the duty, the absolute and essential duty of Govern ment, and of the House, to watch the signs of the times, anti to consider what were the proceedings on the subject throughout the country. But the Chancellor of dim Exchequer preferred not to advert to the situation of the country, and he talked of re sisting this motion as a first step towards a Reform of Parliament. For his (Mr. C. Grant's) part, he • had seen quite enough of such resistances to first steps in Parliament.—(Cheers.)—He well knew, and every Member who heard him but too well knew, what such language meant.—(Cheers.)—He had heard every Right Hon. Gentleman now on that bench (the Treasury Bench) use the same lan guage, with the same assumption of tone, and with - the same inexorable and invincible power of resist ance. What had been the result ? This was " dragging on from partial death to death." It was unjust not to concede to just and reasonable mea sures.—(Cheers.)—This concession of Govern ment was not a lawful concession which sprung from a great mind resolved to defend the public cause; but it was a languid, timorous, hesitating, half-consenting, half-suspicious concession, which took away the grace from what was given.—(Cheers.) His Right lion. Friend (the Chancellor of the Ex chequer) had told them that he had voted for the ti ansfer of a franchise to Leeds. His Right Hon. Friend voted for the transfer of a borough-franchise to Leeds. Why, he thought that his Right Hon. Friend resisted first steps—(Hear)—that he ad hered to the constitutions of that House, inflexible by persuasion, by eloquer cc, by influence of whatever kind. But no—his Right Hon. Friend really voted for the transfer of a franchise to Leeds.—(Cheers and laughter.)—Well, then, there could be no ques tion of principle in the manner of his Right Hon. Friend voting; and he thought that his Right Hon. Friend, until he declared it, had forgotten his former vote as to Leeds. Was it not, then, trifling with the House, in a question of this nature, to say, " steed on first steps ?"—(Cheers.)—Was it not a mere mockery of debate to say so, when they knees' that if there were two franchises before them, his R girt Hon. Friend would give one of them to • large town ? He appealed to the House if this were the way in which so grave a question ought to be treated.—(Hear, hear.)—But his Right Hon. Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was ex tremely indignant with his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Huskisson), because his Right Hon. Friend thought some portion of the exacerbation of the conntry arose from the conduct of the Government. Now, at the tremendous risk of incurring the anger of his Right Hon. Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)--- (Hear, hear, and laughter)—he begged leave to st' that he held the same opinion. Had there not bests meetings such as had never taken place before 1--- (Hear.)—Were there not loud complaints and great dissatisfaction ? Were there not signs and symptoms sufficient to make every thinking man pause ? And yet his Right lion. Friend told them that he had seen nothing which could induce him to alter his past conduct. If they refused every thing , every thing would be asked ; if they refused that which wasjust, that which was unjust would be demanded. Every body knew that the demands of a people un der excitement were always much higher than they .. would be content with having conceded when irri tation had subsided.—( Hear, hear.) lie well knew' that the people of England dreaded innovation; that they were sincerely attached to their old insti tutions; and he knew also that it was judicious to preserve them in that temper, by proceeding, in in dividual cases of abuse like this of East Retford, in a manner which should be most advantageous to ei the public interest.—(Cheers.) For while he ad- • mitted that this was the disposition of the people, yet he was inclined to believe that if this temperate mode of remedying abuses were refused them, they would be driven to attack those landmarks which his Right Hon. Friend was so anxious—and justly so anxious—to preserve.—(Cheers ) His Right Hon. Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had referred to a circumstance which took place during Mr. Canning's Administration. But in that • instance what. had been done ? The Government exercised no influence, and what was the result 1-- Why the House agreed that die franchise of Pen . rya should be transferred to Manchester, and he acquitted the House, therefore, of all participation in goading the people to overstep the beunds cr( prudence in their demand. This blame did not tacit to the House.—(flear, hear.) But what spel's he would ask, was there in the hundred of Basset law ? The people of England—the British pub lic—justly feeling the importance of representation• came to that House, told them of great communi ties that were unrepresented, and the Government met them,—with what ? with the hundred of Brie' setlaw.—(Cheers and laughter.) The Chancellor of the Exchequer had told them that on a certain occasion the iron trade had been protected in that House. But were they thus to argue from the in' terference of individual members on a particular question ; or were they to appeal to the common sense of the matter ? Ministers talked of Basses: law, of the Dukery, and of Aristocratic influence', he talked to them of a town with a population " j 120,000 sou's—the centre of a community of fiv e or six hundred thousand men, with a capital not t ° be estimated by thousands, nor by tens of thousand' but by miliions.—(Cheers.) He would tell the Gir yernment of the enterprise, the spirit, the wealth' and die importance of such communities, totally test' represented; and, placing these in the balanc e against the hundred of Bassetlew, be would lease the result to the common sense and the conscience of lion. Members who heard him.—(The Righ t Hon. Gentleman sat down amidst loud cheering.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUO i said, that there was one point on which his Rifr Hon. Friend had misunderstood him, lie kne and stated that he acted on this question accor dil to precedents; the result of which were, that 01, franchise should be trans f erred to the hundred, un it' the hundred were so small, or so full of other voter s ' that such transfer became unedvisuble. In this eas e the hundred did afford a sufficient number of v oters , Sir F. BLAKE said (as we understood) that it might be an extension of repres tho he hundred e d t o o f disfranchiseß asset: was, th h b e or t o h u o g u h gh a t h i o t g w e o o u le ld r. h° yet t a l a g s t l i l l d o n : ( cr ' a i n i n l o Y s t fe k r n o t hwe under franchisehi s t e o 1 11 1 fi e u h e u n n c d e re t d4 bette (Here the cries of ` l Question" bec a m e ver y lou i and general). Strangers were ordered to withdraw, when j Mr. PEEL rose amidst cries of " Question," a ° , 4 after the Gallery was ordered to be cleared, Po Right Hon. Gentleman said, I am not surprised , ti s the anxiety of the House to come to a decision insk a subject that has beta so fully and frequently • the ex for h WOUld t ions precis pursue my 11 per p of wo Si vely f or d . _ Righ t oceaci, that tt intere l nlittee on e I do intro(' e_°nlTll RN; Parts i oUr w Sir, It Port 111 bl ame inter ei Comm Sir, t th e n o faeturi lande i Mem' ---(II presel —lc pond( havin do no Retfor eviden comp!, since t loann i houtal ca Which turriaf Agr ee Pyrfeci a nd cc thi, furni s i Prie n hereo f hery an II: freellc) really !hen, rou gh for th, tiou ford., corne a prov ec bor oul can t Even I Thou in c h r resolu:i Sir, I of bri bonou ind genert fro m &Illy a Lot Air, 44 el