The Sun. — London, England, 1833-03-20 00:00:00

A oo tiler O W abolit to el, would ifit at pre' en4 d/ aclisiois'eroi ( power, a 01 ° 0 must„iieh -d. ' ; l on the P r ' Dc' 'e the r, but on lapplied by %Is e • b, Penes of trial in any shape and contended that if ao -ad ' ananirnity were requir d ' it would he better that a tesernthtter..tial should never e cOnsist of more than five Sir JA early "`'/IN DALRYNIPLE was anxious to taketh is oef tleep.portuni'y of denying the broad and bold assertions hiid to aft er and and Gallant Member for Surrey, and e T t i e L i i r a good many years of experience in the army. t d htoteitattatlurlfilitteheeniraltered to meet th e wishes of the people, an Re p r esentatives, but, take it as he would, whi e b t) h -e ' l. t it gave a fearful power to the Government, esti, s had only very recently made up his mind to con it to, ate ik few days ago he had not prevailed upon himselfto it ra„, fro this claus e in the Bill, and he only consented o c,io t on) dire necessity. 05,,,,n,1.PEEL did not mean to contradict the Gallant correct' (,PEEL Beauclerk's) facts, but he would deny the t tinj est a ," of the opinions he had delivered. It was . tn , : s Wh o l e '`) f atal a notion of the state of punishment in , the t portri,iiii.rrodycefrrotami a articular regiment ; and the Galan nlyPshown the grossest ignoranceof w th y e th e exrte"t°4 which courtstnartial acted. The reason h m i s t of onft'f Punishment sometimes varied, when . the re d j e .: eis tl4 D , r "; . nee was the same, was this—that in sotne o_ t eta r 4 _" 'event), was necessary, in consequence iii thel ee, had rebt'asubordination existing in it. He (Colonel Peel) et th cip 'n the new spapers—f. r he bad not been p Oktet whOte--another opinion delivered by the Gallant r M for n'eh -souther' sue prised him-_ a",, nEAUCLERK interrupted the Hoii. Mem t b a e c r, sielealed to the 1-fou.e whether this sort of at k h ert . rn , fh, opinions found in a newspaper wasfair?— (~. ip., ') If he did not receive justice in the Haus , he o o'ycihere he could find if elsewhere.—(Cheers; cries p iled re and much confusion.) Ilit H e ` I N AL (the Chairman) immediately addressed i bithiirt,z,cinw:ualicsri,stsioarn Gall ant 'lieu ) her tor Surrey, and wnbh4een" he l bre,naus.t have forgotten (u to: .. ) He was tiinet l e thatilwhea tphreesusminn.t i an e d sc G ap 'all — nt Member had oh , jawesierlre experience in the House than lie at prese? kies ethi ' he would be the first to feel that he had spoken )4 it'ai,"nat'l!"--(Clieers ) hieo4tl,-,;;EAUCLERK * added, that it was far from his Poi e th 0 violate the forms ..f debate. He did not sup .i: S A nin th ' House would refuse the justice to which t colobll'ed—a(Cheers.) It hith I' l PEEL repeated that he had seen the opinion to it' N I 7 referred only in the public newspapers ; ___ i t ,, , n n, (q tei. tat he thought he had done the Hon. an . 11; it _ . '441,„,4 fa VitUr in enabling him to contradict i . Of it,,,,,b..nortiat he would say generally, that if he were 14 tri e b r i t ' t here was no tribunal by which be would rather Lied A , PolPP.ir:r4 thrells?taitPsceid*hin ( ‘ ' v a o se ul t d be at Lo a r ll d a l i * v i e e n u t t s en h a a n y t e di n - o to r , t' increase it. Le' he Horn Gentleman had said that d h t did qintitniclainnof ' Jurors had been 'rade out, an ° i l ie.. l' t t , h itik it • t o do so to make out a case ' l tki tLeatlon. Ifnece's try would look to the state of . I e . - tt,i. , ith„ ~.. old they wou , N H, ' ", fifid that the people in eerier .1 o f e r r o e ii i i nt . :- . sn ot ._ told therefore jurors could not be free Nano)t NI ; ',here taken from the class of small farmers—( '. ~.. the t; ti : rs it was that intimidation so greatly pre' ailed. if ;,1441'1)-el.:Yere left out, th e must essential pa . rt of .n t .l h o e ri l i l iu il i. l `sa e t:nt ered away, and the detect would be i ILalitLeelt•tne. One great advantage of caul. sivar p ti o a , l il;:fleetiqt-nekness with which their sentences .. were had „411:14,,2P• Now, as to another objection which I nitlie r '-", he begg.d to say :hat matters of fact ens not redttb:ueb nice di serimination and keen judgu en.. .1 t t ei ll :i d ' f the law sumetiniss thought t t be . necessary.riewet_ D C'ttl y it ,, , , that during the present assizes, juries .i. wa e s ie°44lkhb; Properly performing t h e i r duties, achi,,,t.aes the sri Thie " a l ' a PPY, indeed, to hear . that , s ad '!tee r ' "we , r, was no conclusive argume o n i t d t i h m at , kitti en.,t intimidated, and he, therefore, co it !di', 4 e " , e 'o he unnecessary. Si,' CLAIR...Sir, t' e speech with which I deem r ella r ,'",uent u „„ 4 ~ 4 , .11 Me to trouble 'ell ) , very singular fir it shall be very short. Ni, the H use shall in one s d :l t : l ' rit'f'tfilillsia House seem to be so link pled:: ed to the stern''. The , Measur e as his Ma jesty 's Ministers tt em aln:t op, jeY,nt!ve adopted very essential and unexected ea tt . t 'aia tiee o`t,".'a clautt . e,. afte!. ha l v l in ti g ie t i o r ldl I s th a t integrity wtlaea ti et , b g c al t o the Its provisions in a tint 'tr an . .fficiency of the Bill, and to the restora. h tse must impor t], 4,,,dire(1,41.11uy i n I re l an d . B u t if . 1. td the Right 4, Qtbiati stions (as has been adi"te • • by of the mea , ' vo n , q nan) do not diminish the efficacy ___. kit tedq atbite e cos ' were trhey not introduced before? Why were stult:r),torxibt at y and now abandoned otth.s enactments per i vacillation tend to b p „ ti a t/ I lio ns all ? Does n - unnecessary obloquy 'bo wl '4l. b ras -4 ' 01 Lords, and bring V'Yp set eh of the Legislature, fur having unani lis!aty f t Ll certain unconstitutional regulations,wthi r c e b . t " . " • 44l 'hti a a vra of the Bill have now spontaneously ,aniain. 1 1 1 . 44 t hat 1143 Majesty's Ministers have always say S g i k l ea4t of P it ed , ial fomented (to liticnl gitation is much 34 , toe. , )h y the inflammatory harangues of the 0, 4 , 1 o n a " Yet they now exempt the latter to t h , `4y the of these new courts, and leave thetii:, under th,:qu e , very tribunals which they declare . t•oture which fir'i lt aw Z. °.,f in 'imidatio n ; so that it the ino tith .ti k eli a ' n . 4nlah Juries b 0 a cornet one, theyare now a th e "I for the poor and leaving cobwebs coin. th'er4tive itokiwerful agitator will escape with for . the e 'as t'tal c)st Paul ty, and his deluded dupe li s e e d xze l y e e a n r . ) edd h kiy ~ Nour of an arbitrary Intv.—( Ltise,74,l, Lh a at P iii , a u r r ti t I am not convinced . by th o e ffli e ri v il i e d r e a nc t, e , n'tt n , Wn, 'ea are unwilling to bring . L -siartilc'ea's will h e as reluctant to . , appear . before ntieh,tdin. thathelore Juries ; and his Majesty's Ministers tin("mal in,' it is unnecessary to adhere tr)t n h e e w ir thr,..44iiltini`e"frti"o of extending the functions of these carry lig,. lie tt ,' °netters of a political character. I will 1 1 1 4 1 ,.. t thetriatiide one step further, and vote altogether of th • I). h o se• hi rl ,' t% h HE said the Noble Lord (the C e. i a la ss tic f e r l o lo m r lidejoriee:quer) was misinformed as to the 1 th ett 'l r lo vre thwere taken in Ireland. The present assizes tl'eto':t there the), could and wools! do their duty, t d a u k t e y, fr a o n m d lla r sh e p„,e",.aa not the least necessity them. ti le Q. Iv .11 with which the law invested th.C'esi,l "at ,INN had a suggestion to throw out for t . a', 4 *(l . I , h ia n of the Noble Lord—one on which, if thetin-s. I r . "' it Was not his intention to ground an h y e t ut ,Ctsi4c,,' mat Was that the Sergeant-at- Law should tu t 4 the Court, in preference to hi t s acting might Pr4d4tl thre'tkaten--(Hear, hear.) Perhaps it , 4 " 11: 4t kt - ,aripen, that in a cross-examinati t klei, : did? bgadge-Advocate would be ads ers s e e parties, * under Pie'r'lotnt4 think that the law of the t'aa das 4 , ate Y a: 4 , e 'l's would he stated as coolly " p , ,,,, d -. " th e bp - ‘i 0,, ht to lie. The prosecutor should T t sar : P i 44 l aB 'etiti. g in He did not approve of the pr t o s: etis t r i t ' t ;' ,._ ati ° t • i ete s ettdi rig '4ltit,ft 'letit 1' ;ult . -officers to sit on the cour t. e t , Would necessatily be too subjeet h to e h ri. Pin k ; by ~,.'" preferred that the duty should e p v 'Ss ' il '4 ah-",''tern who would not be in tear of being , Itlii 'l.l :'d t . ' l ' a lt. P a y it list, should they not exactly do as so k ~Atltti• given hi s support Itt ils '4 . l4 er s C ROMBY had hitherto they. ai. h 1 Mae to es , , l ;Sti se t nn this measure, but now the to oppose it by , tat a.atta, ! found it imperative on ) nd he would do it Sat,, -4'4 a im '4 his power—(Cheers" • Power—(Cheers)—and for its enact tint'tt bsel,',.Ple ground--bad any necessity . yet, eniietroved? Nor cimldt do i ° ,'sr eti . he had often before heard agree used, w"h t t h h a e t :t r, h g when !tt ett . ' 6,,l t i i lkd the limits of the Constitution, you should In )• e lit e t,,.• He confessed . , that though I e had heard bt,t4trAndlostity, that doctrine, they carried little , weight ie' , t ' ti t ' 11, . was not convinced by such arool i ent i s— r. 'via, ' 'l ,: the'n"ntraey, he considered that whenever t ie !a passed without sufficient tro,%"?tnttit'Zastitution w as P n e „,,,, it y, a °I eh:inane t the direst and most manifest ' 4 S o bitt o ' was committed on the rights and liberties argument, ir, ,:l'f‘l ,°•••••-(Cheers ) It was a plausible nu lvtre-vq,nst,°; w hich he * would say—let those whe thelli I N - r,,s't t 1.5 threshold of the Constitution with abl y th e ." 'to d oing they at least carry alang , mon -4 til(l:4•4l7''Pathy of all considerate and intended le might,ofdl....Ote' cheers.) That which he w was ld predict lelaset'toretos terro r to the people, 'on. ,b-,ere. oto;toret,tt:;)4tt ittli,s4s4:lMl.lsricze,sofflowiw•eagkoniensgs atto, justified t k i°ll " . t r i' la to I Nall be found to entorcsetifithie‘edb:h avv is warigtitit -One 1- shy - et ' Migh - 41 11 ll' t1 41 , 4 3 ; - ' dangerous provisions to hear that his ttillt it tit 4 o 4 ro ti t e: g a b e t b, l l 4 o .. .u_ . If Fr e ie w nd as s gladv e . e n r t y ertaii.edah p o a p t e . tof the kith , I, ltr i 't h' r Y to put this obnoxious that it t h nrit y i tve r 4 s.eertainly apuroved of the suggestion, person of at i t ti the 1 district was proclaimed, a P tl l44leti°l4, l 4 a, ought to be sent to that district; and i 141ty ' ic e illit "eh only after all the ordinary means tot":ettltj:4:444 toadrizee resorted , to,.t o h u at .. the extram:- id be put in do t i e oci,i d ' thi s ou i d I'Y the Bill sh , en 4f , , 1it t i,,.... g! , t, in nis opinion, to be one of the 4 !oi.i t , s. , :r t 6 '' tv.ith his right Hon. Friend, ,e im m in o e ; is t , *Nit bi t`, Passing of the Bill, as theieny tl fr i ed 's tu ate t he m ast might be avoided. Ile pressed co4itiihtt,,,,,,",rtieularly on his Noble and Right Hon. ' 4l ad m ?n, eh..ne entertained a deep and overwhelming th e tttria Nhen" tii,re I . could not be a more dangerous Peopl e Y lv i n e,,,el:4•tey than to make use of officers of Sir. ST con„ln Which the polincal feelings of the 55 his It . 'N I: Ni t Pl,"----(Lotid cries of " Hear, bear.. ") 'sYs t hat le ): t F lub - 'd lista-fled with the deepest attention Neter 1,. -) r 11,:,,1ti Learned Friend. He mei nut ' eil tert it i 'Rht ti F li ttl ti, ,° ll . and Learned riend's ch,a -• highest respect. it was not efaiy, however, his respect for his Right Hon. and Learned Friend's private character that made him regret to find his Right Hon. and Learned Friend differ from his Kijesty'e Government respecting a point on which they had felt it their painful duty to adopt what appeared to them to be the only expedient course, but because he also felt, that whatever fell from his Right Hon. and Learned Friend must, under any circumstances, have great weight with that House. In one pert of his Right Hon. Friend's statement, he had not done justice to his Majesty's Govern ment—lie meant that part in which his Right Hop. and I earned Friend alleged that his Majesty's Government had rot done what has Right Hon. and Learned Friend thought, and what he (Mr. Stanley) thought they ought to do—namely, to reserve a recourse to military tribunals as the leet resource, when all other modes of adtninistering justice had failed ; and, above all, not to mix up military tribunals with any considerations of a political nature. Now, that was erecisely the provision made by his Ma.. jssty's Ministers on the subject. Wherever there was the appearance of any offence involving considerations of a political nature, his Majesty's Government had, unasked, unpressed, but from their spontaneous feeling, struck that off.nce out of the list of those of which the military tri bunals were to take cognizance. All offences connected with libel, with seditious purifications, with political meetings, and with the weirs, they had at once struck nut. Was it, then, quite lair on the p ill of his Right Hon. and Learned Friend to impute to his Majesty's Go- eernment an attempt to constitute these military tribunals for po itical purp sea ?—( Hear, hear, hear.) Good God ! what were the political offences which these mili;ary iris bundle were to invmstigate ? Whi , efoot outrages, bur glaries, robberies, herighing of cattle—all abuses and viola tions of the rights of property, carried on by an organized force, paralyzing the ordinary law, end intimidating the timid and weak , sucn were the political aff-nces w hich were to be submitted to the cognizance rif these military tr ibunals, fir cuurtsmartial they were not in the ordinary sense of the word. With respect to intimidation, he shim d have been very much astonished it any Irish Mem ber had stated that there was noire existing in Ireland. There was d.ffsrent evidence on differ , nt points, but there was no point on which there was stronger m vidence than that the middle and lower classes in Inland evinced the greatest reluctance and alarm at the idea of being compel ed to attend on a jury. With respect to the unprecsdi nted number of jurors at the late Assizes at Kilkenny, be crinfessid that he had no confidence in these sudden cenversions.—(Hear, hear.) If a more healthy tone had gradually app. ared—if there had been gradual y less alarm and more confidence, then be should have sa d there was some plausibility in the argument founded en the large attend ince of jurors in question. But when tray saw at one Assizes that it was almost im possible to obtain any jurors, when the civil court Was almost deserted, when only six weeks ago it was predicted that no Jury could be found to convict persons charged with offences; and when he found suddenly, that Or the introduction into P aliament of a tneasute whir h Was to b e ',reductive or the greate-t restraint on ti e lawless and the iurbulent, and on the agitators who at present exercised so extensive a power over the people ; when he also knew how impart oit it was to the latter to endea v Jur to produce an impression that the provision* of the Bill weie unnecessarily harsh and severe, he confessed that he derived from the sudden and rapid ieflux of Jurors at Ki kenny anything but satisfaction and confidence. He read it in the compete and systematic organ ze ion of a plan to prevent the law from being rendered effeciive. If, however, he were driven to the other argument, and if the Bill hail already s ruck a salutary terror int the evil disposed. and imparted a salutary confidence to the well disposed, in that statement he saw an argument, not against pass rig the Bill, but in faveur of passing it. Adverting to the character of Juries, he observed that, with reference to Coroners' Juries in Ireland, it was notorious that in many cases they were actuated by a deierininetion to find iine, and one only verdict. The H in. and Learned Mem her iur Tipperary had said, in answer to his Noble Fr lend —and the statement had been cenfirtned by the Hon. M roller for Limerick—that the Petty Juries were not taken born the lower classes. The tact was, that the Sheriff was compelled to look not only at the property of those who were to be the Jurors, but also at the neighbourhood in which they lived ; and was compelled to take core that they lived in houses like fortifi cations, and were able to defend themselves from the po police. Now, bow greatly was the argument urged against the Bill on the ground of constitutional right weakened try that fact? For where was that principle of constitutional security which declared that every uran should be tried by his Peers?—(Hear, hear.) It had urged that the gentry had not come forward. They had come forward, and occupied places not only in the Grand Juries to which they belonged, but in Petty Juries, in the absence of persons better suited for that station. All this was undoubtedly wrong; it was, in fact, trying the people by the aristocratical class. But in the existing circumstances of Ireland it was unavoidable; and the fact that it was so weakened the argument which was founded on the sus pension of the Constitution by the Bill. It was recom mended by his Right Hen. and Learned Friend, that in lieu of courteurartial, the Lord-Lieutenant should send drown a kind of standing Commissioner into the disturbed districts to try offenarrs. There was nothing in the Act to prevent the Lord-Lieutenant doing this. He would go fur her, and would say that, if there were reason to be lieve that Special Counniseions could effect the objects which the Bid was intended to eff ct, he perfectly agreed with his Right Hon. and Learned Friend, that it would be infinitely better to retain the ordinary than to adopt any extraordinary tribunal. But if, week after week, it should appear that this was not the case—if, week after week, it should appear that only the higher classes email(' come torward with impunity, and that the lower classes coul r not attend as jurors before a Special Com mission without great risk and odium, then surely it was right to give the Lord Lieutenant, in the last resort, the power which the Bill under consideration conferred upon him. Under such circumstances, it appeared to him to be infinitely better, on the part of his Majesty's Government, to come forward boldly and ask Parliament, " Have you sufficient confidence in us to place this formidable measure in our hands ?" With respect to Special Commissions, the only time at which they could be advantageously re sorted to, was when parties began to give way, and when information flowed in to an extent which it was sometimes trighttul to contemplate. Once let that corner be turned, and a Special Commission might he productive of great benefit. Ws Majesty's Go vernment had bent a Special Commission to the Queen's County. That Commission had been success ful, as far as convictions went, but it had not t ern suc cessful in breaking down the existing system. But, said the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, why did you not send a special commission to Kilkenny? He could tell that lion. and Learned Member, that a strict inquiry had been made into the state of the prisons—into the weans of information—and into the probability of obtain ing convictions; and that it there had eeen any chance that prosecutions would have been successful, the Judges would have been instructed to proceed from 111aryborough to Kik keeny ; but there was none. Intimidation, as affecting courts of justice, was still prevalent. It was true that there had been convictions. Yes, right or wrong, there had been convections. Guilty and innocent had been convicted in ilifferently. Jurors had come forward and convicted, under what influence he knew not, and would not say. This he would say, aowever, that not one case in twelve, sent to prime by Government, although on what appeared to be certain emidence, had been successtul, for that in not one case out of twelve had the witnesses appeared ; and that not one instance in twenty had any case been substan tiated, except by the evioence of the police alone. It this did not show the existence of extensive intimidetion in Kilkenny, he would abandon his argument. As conclusive evidence of the existence of intunidation, he wound refer to the case which had lately been quoted by the Gallant Colonel, the Aletnber fur Sligo. A witness examined before the Committee on the state of Ireland, was asked— " To w hat do you att. ibute the state of insuoordivation which exists in Ireland ?" The answer was.--" Do you insist on my telling you ?" " Do you object ?" said the Committee. " I do," replied the witness, " for if I were to answer, and to answer correctly, you know well that my life would not be safe." Su satiAied were the Mem bers of this Committer—lrish Members, be it ob served—ea' tire validity of this objection, that they struck out of the evidence the answer of all answers most elucidatory of the very point they were investigmting, It had been said that it would render the officers of the army obnoxious, to place them in a judiciml situation in Ireland ; and that they would be subject to the imputation of being biassed and partial. Now, it happened that the Hon. Member for Waterford had yesterday let out this important tact, nein , ly, that if a choice were given to the great mass of the p pulation of Leland by what tribunal they would be triad, their answer would be, that they would be tried ay a tribunal constituted of officers of the army. Su far as the feelings of the peeple of Ireland wen-, courtsmarti a l w ere n it there considered a n . o r e invidious sort of tribunals than courts of justice. Fur his own part, considering the state of Ireland, he could nut take upon himself the responeibility to which he would be liable, if his M ijesta'a Ministers did not come to the House for some such powers as were pr: posed• They threw themselves on the House, and trusted that it want(' plate such confidence in them, as to believe that they would not abuse those powers, which nothing but painful necessity could ever have induced them to ask tor.—(Cheers.) Mr. ABERCROMBY observ,d that the Right Hon. Gentleman had contended that political agitation was con • nested with predial agitation, and theref ,re he was iusti fied in applying to the et - fences the epithet of political. Mr. STANLEY admitted that political agitation, by exciting the minds of the peopl , , led to outrage and vio lence; but he did not consider the Whitefeet were guiitv of political offences- Mr. SHELL denied that the Right Hon. Gentleman had answered the Right Hon. Gentleman (the M-mber for Edinburgh), whose Opinion, expressed in opposition to his p ,rty,would in , ke a great impression upon the House. The Right Hon. Secretary asked to be trusted with this authority upon a pledge that it would not be abused ; but he (Alr. Shed) was not ready to intrust ar bitrary power to any one, unless a case was made out. The cutting down of the Bill, by excluding what were termed political r ffencs, such as libels, confined the operation of the Bill almost entirely to the poor peasantry. Captain BERKELEY (we believe) read a letter which be had received from a magistrate of the county of Kil kenny, corroborwing the statement of the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland. That gentleman stared distinctly that the loyal attended the resent assizes at Kilkenny, from a wish to suppress the disturbances in their county, and the cdskyal from a desire to make the country believe that there was no intimidation practised upon them. His opinion was, that a case had been made out by his Ma jesty's Government.—(Hear.) Mr. O'FERRALL, in reference to the letter read by the preceding speaker, asked the House what opinion they ought to form of the judgment of a migrstrate who set sell up as a judge of the loyal and the disloy a l in the county wherein he resiiied.—(Hear, hear ) If the jail a in Ireland had been base enough shrink from doing. their duty, he would have granted Ministers the power which this clause proposed to give them : but the contrary was the fart, and he must therefore pause before he confided to them a power which nothing but the most urgent and palpable nece*sity e•oa!d justify. He would pass this Bill without the courtmartial clause until the end of the present session, and if at that rirne it were proved that ,he juries of Ireland hid not performed their duty manfu ly arid honestly by their country, he would gr int them this clause tout ; but he looked opu.n it as monstrous to propose to abolish the trial by jury and to erect courts martial in Ireland for the trial of civil offences, whilst Parliament was sitting and juries and witnesses were per forming their duty. Impressed with this conviction, he was determined to give his most strenuous opposition to this clause. Mr. SHAW had on a former occasion consented to the inciple of this clause ; but he believed that in the shape which the clause assumed at present, it %you'd be inope rative. He thought th it Pie necessity for this extraoroi naty poser was fully made out. The Judge of assize, who had gone for the four last years the Kilkenny circuit, had told the grand jury of that county, that in each suc cessive year he had found the state of their county getting regularly worse; that the benefits of the British Consti tution were suspended within their limits ; that not one twelfth of the critninel offences committed in Kilkenny were brought before the court; and that evidence was wanting to convict, even in one-twelfth of the cases which were brought before it. The necessity, therefcre, for this measure was cleat ly made out ; but lie had learned from some military men, that the altetaiione recently made in the constitution of these court-martial would rend. r this clause almost inoperative. He was ewe that from the constitution of these tribunals, by which it was nec esary that the five officers who were members of it should he unanimous in their dscieion, they woul I prove neither speedy nor effieacious tribunals. Tie great inducement which had led tom to yield to the request of Ministers to put into their hands powers mere extraordinary than any whien their predecessors in office had ever called for, was, that those powers would be used to put down political agitation. He could not see the justice by which the Hon. and Learned Member for Tipperary was pet mitt, d to aeitate with impunity, and by which his poor deluded victims were to be visited with severe penalties. He was sorry to say that, on the suggestion of the Hon. Member for Koketelbright, a summery power had h en removed from the Bill which he deemed most important—he meant the power of suppressing political meetings. The mea sure, lie was certain, would be found inc,pable of putting down political agitation. He was full of gloomy antici pateins as to the future prospects of Ireland. He believed that it was likely that it would soon be separated from this country.—(Cries of " No, no.") He mieht be wrong in that opinion, but that opinion he sincerely and honesty maintained. He concluded by stating that he should give to this clause his very decided, hut very reluctant assent. Mr. 0 CONNELL felt that he ought not to allow this question to go to a vote without saying a word in reply to the Noble Lords and Hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House. He wished that he could entertain a hope that Ministers had heard enough that evening from the Hon. and Learned Member for Edinburgh, the Hon. and Learned Member for Kirkcudbright, and from the Hon. and Learned Member for Monaghan (who knew a great deal of Ireland), to induce them to suspend their opinions upon this clause till to-morrow. He was not the friend, nei ther did be pretend to be the friend, of the present Minis ters ; but he was sure that their soundest friend would concur with him as to the propriety of the advice which he had just recommended to their adoption. The point on which the Committee was then called upon to decide was this—'l Is the trial by jury to be abolished at the mere will of the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland ?"—(Hear, hear.) That was the question to which a Reformed Par_ liament was called upon to answer Yes or No.—(Hear, hear.) It was net a light or unimportant question. If they should unfortunately answer the question in the affir mative, what were they going to substitute for it? Not a courtmartial, but some bastard mongrel thing that was c a lled a courtmartial, but, in point of fact, was not one. He, meant no offence persenally to the gentlemen who were to serve upon it, but he must say that the country was going to have a packed courtmartial, a ram bling tribunal, undefined by principle, unlimited by any thing like law, misshapen, ill-begotten, in a word—a mere embryo.—(Cries of " Hear.") He protested against its establishment, not only on its own account, but also on account of it as a precedent. He would not waste the time of the House by declaiming on the merits of jury trial—he would only say that be pitied the man, who, calling himself a lover of freedom, did not estimate highly this mode of trial. It preceded the title of the King to his throne, and was in existence even before the right of representation in Parliament existed. In abolishing that mode of trial, let the House consider what power was vested in this mongrel courtmartial. It had no poser to try the murderers of Mr. Leonard—no power to try those violent outrages at which good men of all parties naturally shuddered—no power to try political effences, for that power had very properly been taken from it. Thus, then, there remained nothing for it to try but the middle species of offences. But then the erection of these couitsmartial was rendered necessary by the intimidation practised upon jurymen. The Right Hon. Secretary, in arguing this question, placed the of p inents of the Bill in a cu rious diteinma. At the last assizes, the jurors for the county of Kilkenny did not attend : that wss intimidation. At the present as-ires they do attend ; and that, sail the Right Hon. Secretary, was intimida tion again. Such were the miserable grounds upon which an intelligent people were to be depriied of their dearest rights. He recollected, that upon a former night the Right Hon. Secretary had produced a great effect, by quoting a letter foretelling that the jurors would not attend at the present assizes for Kilkenny. To-night he had en deavoured to induce the Committee to act noon another letter, stating that the jurors had attended in ex raordiriary numbers. How then were the honest friends of Irish liberty to act, when they found that whether jurors at• tended or not, their rights and franchises were to be equally destroyed ?--(Hear.) Again, it had been stated that witnesses would not attend, so much were they intitin• dated. Why, it was now in evidence that they attended wil ingly and in crowds. But were the witnesses intimi dated ? On that point the evidence of Mr. Barrington, which he read, sues decisive. Mr. Barrington asserted that he had never known a ease in which a witness was maltreated on account of his having given evidence. it was miserable to have to enter into details and discussions like these—it was miserable that the trial by jury should be the stake for which he was playing, and that such wrenched counters as these should be set against so valu aide and inestimable a prise.—(Cheers.) But, sup posing that witnesses did not attend before the ordinary tribunals of the land, what power had these military tribunals to compel their attendance? It was said that the courts of law were inoperative, from want of sufficient evidence. Were these militery tribunals to act with less.—(Hear, hear.) Bot put the case the other way. Witnesses w. uld not come volitatarily forward, but were there no such things as informers—men who trafficked in blood, and who, fee a paltry pittance, would cell the lives of their fellow -s:tbjects ?—(Hear, hear.) The evidence of an informer was always suspicious; he was generally an accomplice in the offences with which he charged others. Tie evidence of an accomplice required corroboration ; and what was evidence in corroboration was a d &tilt point even for the venerable Judges of the land to determine; and yet all this was to be settled wit out discussion by these military red-coated Judges. —(Hear.) He contended that the Right Hon. Secretary lied not shown any necessity for this measure. The Right Hon. Secretary in his speech that evening had gone so far as to say that he hoped that if this Bill were passed, the executive viivernment would not have occasion to use it.— (Hear.) That was a distinct admission that there was no necessity for the Bill, and therefore the House ought not to give to the Lord-Lieutenant the power of deciding at his will and pleasure whether the trial by Jury should he abo lished in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) Then the Right Hon. Secretary, having eiven up the ground of necessity, called upon the House, from its confidence in Mi n i sters , to grant t -em those extraordinary powers. Now ought they to giv e up their liberties to the keeping of any man, oat of con ti fence either in him or his colheigues ?—(No, no.) The Right Hon. Gentleman could not ask this Bill of them as a right, when he called upon them to give it him in eon- Hence. He could not demand it front them as a debt, so he notv came forward and solicited for it as charity. Give it him in charity,—bestow it upon him as an eleemosy nary contribution. Yes, you will do so, if you are pre - pared in confidence to abolish the trial by jury, and to abolish it for a mongrel species of ambulatory cow tmartial, clocked above and cut away below, which is neither fish nor flesh nor good reil-herring.—(Clieers.) Lord INGESTRIE was understood to s iy,'thaethough lie had supported this Bill upon its first introduction, he was now inclined to oppose it, because this clause had been so altered as to he rendered ineffective. Mr. STANLEY, in reply to the Noble Lord's reason for support from this Bill, wou ld on ly state, words, which did not in the slightest degree affect its im port, in precisely the same shape in which it was origi nally introduced into the House. Colonel PERCEVAL was almost inclined to vote against this clause, since the mode in which the constitution of the courtsin irtial had been altered by requiring five of its members to tie unanimous, would render it difficult for the Government to render any effectual protection to the inhabitants of Ireland. Lord SAIDON did not think that the change made in this clause was •ufhicient to warrant an alteration 01 senti ment in those Hon. Members who had originally given their support to this Bill. Ttie Commit ee then divided, when the numbers were— For the clause Against it Majority -140 The clause was adopt ,d. On our return to the gallery we found the House still in Committee. . _ Toe 11 th clause was read, and, after some short dis. cu.sion, . . Mr. WASON proposed that the court should be unani. mous in the fit,dine and sentence on the accused. Lord ALTHORP said that there was a sufficient pro tection in the niodifications mentioned by him on a former evening and repeated by his Righi lion. Friend that even ing, namely, that when the curt consisted of 9 trieuib re 7 should agree in the finding and sentence ; where less than 9, 5 should agree. Air. CYCONNE[I.. supported the amendment. An HON. MEMBER suggested that the same number should constitute the court in every case, and then the court might be reqttire.l to be unanimous in their verdict. Mr. C. W. VVII . NN was in favour of the clause as it had been modified. The Committee then divided, and the numbers were..- For the amendment 42 Against it .. 145 Majority -104 Mr. BOTCH then coniplooed that it was the practice when the prisoner made an objection to clear the court, and th- Judge- Asivocite had the privilege of replying to toe objection in the absence of the prisoner and his ad vis re. He theietore moved tie introduction of words the effect of which was to ab dish this l netice in courts. martial to Lr held under the Bill. After a few words from Mr. R. GRANT, the atnend tnent was ni g itived. 3lr. WARBURTON then moved that no verdict of acquittal should be revised by the c , iurtmartial which de livered it, or by any other courttnartial. This amendment was agreed to. e clause, as amended, was agreed to. The House resumed, and the CHAIRMAN reported progress and obtained leave to sit a ain to morrow. IRISH CHURCH BILL. Sir M. W. RIDLEY brought up the report of the Committee to whom it had been reterred to inquire whe ther a proper course had been pursued with respect to t' e into odui tion of the Bill for the Reform of the Irish Church, and the report stated that the Bill was a Tax Bill, and ought to he introduced in a Committee of the whole House. On the motion of Lord ALTHORP, the order of the day for the eecend reading of the Bi I was disch ,rged, and the Noble Lurd gave notice that on Monday n at he woo d move that the House shoul I resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House on the Temporalities of the Irish Church. The other orders of the day having been disposed of, the House adjourned at three. o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, MAECI 19. The E rl of SHAFTESBURY, in the ah•ence of the LORD CHANCELLOR, having taken his seat on the Wool sack at five o'clock, The Duke of CUMBERLAND presented a petition from Hastings against the Beer Act. Mr. PENDARVES, and other Members of the House of Commons, brought up a Private Bill. The Earls of HARROWBY and ESSEX presented petition• praying for the better observance of the Sabbath. The Earl of BRECKNOCK presented a petition train St. Clements' D ne, to the same effect. The Archbishop of DUBLIN also presented petitions to the same effect from the parishes of St. John and St. Peter, Dublin. The Marquis of WESTNIINSIER said tkat he had now to present a petition, of which he had given notice, praying that the Jews may be removed from the disabili ties under which they et present labour. It was a ques tion of great importance. He knew that formerly prejudices prevailed against the admission of Catholics and Dissenters within the pale of the Constitution; hut he trusted, and indeed was satisfied, that these prejudices were abated very considerably in both Houses of Par liament. He would not enter into any minute detail, but would speak to the question generally. First, with respect to the petition. It was signed by 16,000 inhabitants of the City of London, of all classes and of the highest respec tability. T: e petition had also been signed by a great number of lawyers and clergy men of the Established Church. It had not ben hawked about the town, or signed by persons who knew not what they were signing ; hut great pains had been taken that every person, before he signed, should know its ct ntents. After having emancipated Catholics, and after having ad mitted Di senters within the pale of the Constitution, he thought it was impossible for them to refuse to admit the Jews. Those who professed the Jewish filth were not likely to do anything to injure the Constitution. The Jews had been emancipated—they had been etnancit ated in America, in Holland, and in other coun tries, and why should they not enjoy the advantages of the Constitution in this country? He would appeal to their Lordships to say whether, since they had been eman cipated in those countries, they nad conducted themselves in any measure to excite the least jealousy or apprehension. On the contrary, they had distinguished themselves very highly. He thought their Lordships would not hesitate to acquiesce in a measure for the total abolition of all disabilities affecting the Jews in Eneland.—(l-lear, hear.) He was well aware that there we:e some who enter ained almost a personal prejudice against the Jews, and seemed to consider that sc acely any person could be a Christian who advocated their cause. Why, had they not been persecuted long enough? And were the Jews of 'he present century to be excluded from the advantages and titles which others bad, because they had done wrong eighteen hundred years ago ?—(Hear, hear, hear.) Why, we were taught to pray tor those who despised us, and to love those who persecuted us ; that was the religion we professed ; and, therefore, could they say we despised you ? The Noble Lord then made a few observation s on some remarks that bad he, n made upon the subject by a person calling himself Hyman Hurwitz, a professor of Hebrew in the London University. He con cluded by moving that the petition should he read by the cl rk at the table. The Bishop of LONDON said it did not appear to Lim that the present was tie proper time for discussing the question. He merdy rose for the purpose of i'enyitig that conclusion s to which the Noble Marquis had come were good or founded upon fact, namely, that Dissenters arid Ca tholics having been admitted into the Legi•lature by any piriry of reasoning, the Jews should also be introduced. Though at th e time the Tat and Corporation Acts were passed, the Legislature had ceased to be a strictly Church of England one—though when the Catholic Relief Bill was pass , -d, it had ceased to be exclusively a Pri tesrant Legisla ture, still in his opinion it bad not ceased to be, ostensibly at least, a Chri-elan one. Loid SUFFIELD had a petition to present to the same effect, signet by 1,000 people, inhabitants of Manchester. He was aware of the inconvenience there was in discussing a question on the mere presentation of a petition. H bw e,er, it was rendered mint cessary for him to trout& the 1-1 1;c would than the N .hle M ai qu i s, w i t h w hi c h h e ent i rety agree d. Howe cualtd any length a ft er th e r e marks that I n d fallen merely state that the petition was signed by up tvatd,' of 1,000 people in three days, and that frorn, hid own knowledge a number of the signature that were at tached to it were most respectable. The Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition frcm: Derby, in Yorkshire, praying for the immediate abolition of slavery, The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented a petition from the Protestant Dissenters of Bath, praying that the Jews might be emancipated ; one for instructing the slaves in the West Indies; and another, from a number of beer house keepers, praying for an inquiry into the laws which affected them. They stated that they could not do any good while left so much at the mercy of the common in former, nor while the licensed houses had so much advan tage over them. Earl RODEN and Lord SUFFIELD both came to the table at once with petitions in their hands. Neither appeared willing to give way, and both were called upon by their friends to proceed. At length Earl Roden sat down, when The Marquis of SALISBURY rose to order. He said the Earl of Roden was in possession of the House, and ought to be a I , wed to proceed. Lord SIJFFIELD said it would be much for the con venience of the House if he were allowed to present his petition, which he intended to do without remark. He considered it would be better, for he supposed that the Noble Lord opposite (Earl Roden) intended to present petitions connected with the subject he intended that night to bring before the House. The Noble Lord then pre: sented a petition, praying for the abolition of slavery. Earl FITZ WILLIAM presented two petitions to the same effect. The Earl of RODEN presented petitions for the better observance of the Sabbath from Dundee and other places, and also petitions praying for national education. The Noble Lord then said that be had felt it his duty a few evenings since to state that it was his intention to submit to their consideration the petitions now lying upon the table on the system of education in Ireland. He felt ex tremely anxious to bring before that House a subject which appeared to him of so great importance. The present plan had been introduced by his Maj.sty's Mi nisters for the purpose, as they stated, of the be nefit of all classes, and all people of his hlsjes ty a subjects in Ireland. He thought he should be able to prove to their Lordships that this system was not adopted for all classes, but had an exclusive tend ney— was one which was adopted only for a particular class of the people. He must, however, refer their Lordships, in the first instance, to the previous system, which had been io operation in Ireland before the present one. It had been in operation from 1816 to 1831, and was called the Koldare-street Society. It received annual grants from Parliament, and lie would say, that it had greatly 'woe fitted the different individuals for whom it was formed, and, in his opinion, had wnrked well. Their Lordships would remember that in 1831, his Majesty's Government stated it to be their opinion that this system was too ex elusive, and that it was necessary to change it altogether, in order to establish one that would embrace all classes of .he cm o , m , n n t n i y. He t occasion, referandhe thought theo w t o h rds of that he 11r should u Stan leyldbe able to k bow that the system was not what it ought to he. Timis Kildare-street Society had 1,621 schools, and up wards of 157,000 scholars, of which a great majority were Catholics. But one great objection was urged against this Society's plan, viz., the use to the Scriptures unmutilated. This was not an objectiou of the people, but of the Catholic priests, and it was upon their representations that his Ma jesty's Government last year established the present plan a ;though strongly petitioned against from ail parts of the kingdom. Those petitions were charged as factious and bigoted, but what they anticipated had been too unhappily verified. The present system never would combine the education of both Cataolies and Protestants, for it was itnpossible Protestants could lei their children go to schools in nunneries and monasteries, and other places u-eit for teaching the Catholic religion. The Board established for the new system, had given doable and sometimes treble, salaries to some of the schoolmasters, compared with what they received from the Kildare-street Society, in order to give an appearance of popularity to the new system by the master's taking part in it. The first name on the public list was, the teacher of the Men dieity Society, 1001., but he hail been told by Mr. Scott, toe barrister, a member of the Mendicity Society, that an application was made to the Board for assistance, but no assistance had been received. The next sum on tt.e list was 251. for the Free School of Carlow, a purely R .n Catholic school, at which there was not a single Protestant. The Carlow Female Seine,' is a nunnery, and nothing but Catholicism taught, and yet allowance is made to it. The le tars on tae authority tot which he stated these facts, he was ready to stow any Noble Lord. The next was 201. to a nunnery at Clookilty. Anot er to Barrow, where there were 100 children, only tree of whom were Protestants. Another of 301 to a school at Ennis, kept by persons in the order of monks, who were fast spreading through the county. That school, be it remembered was set up in opposition to the Protestant school in the place.—(The Noble Earl read an extract of a letter from M aryboroueh, stating that about twenty Protestants had applied to the Board for a grant of money, at the urgent request of the priest, and that one of them, who was a watchmaker, had dec'ared his life would tie in danger had he refused to sign it.) He next mentioned a grant of 50/. to Escar school, where an altar was erected in the midst of the school ; mass said at 9 in the morning ; at 12, spiritual instruction ; at 3, the catechism ; and at 4, prayers and sermons prescribed by the friars. He next proceeded to enumerate plates, to the amount of 49, where schools, purely Catholic, had been established, and re ceived the Government grant, and where the Catholic religion was taught to the children. These, he thought, formed strong grounds for his assertion that the new system had failed in uniting all classes. Most of the applications were from Catholic priests, there being 209 from clergymen of the Catholic faith, and ouly twenty-eight from Protestant clergymen and several of these were Socinians or Dissenters. When he recol lected the resolution come to by the Catholic Bishops in 1826, he was fully convinced that application would not be made by that class on bona fide grounds, and that the regulations of the Board would be evaded. That resolu tion declared that they would exert themselves to the utmost to protect the Catholic; that when the majority of scholars in any school were Catholic, the master should be Catholic ; and when the Catholic formed the minority there should be a Catholic assistant. That the school master should be appointed on the recommendation of the Catholic Bishop, and he removable on the representation of such Bishop. The first effect of such a system was giving up the children into the hands of the Catholic clergy ; and the next was, that Protestants could never form members of a community establishod on such a sys tem). That was in fact striking at the root of the Pro testant religion, the mainstay against the encroachments of false religion. It was quite impossible that an united system of education could be formed. There were no common grounds on which they could agree; and he was sure no good result would follow from any plan which did not recognise the unrestricted and uninutilated use of the Scriptures.—(Hear, hear.) That was the system of the Kildare-street Society, by which so many schools had been established and prospered so long. It was some consolation, however, that the feeling of the great majority of the people of England, Scotland, and Ireland were in favour of those who had from the begin- ring opposed the system ; and though they bad failed in resisting it, still it was a consolation to think that the public voice never sounded louder, and the public pulse never beat higher on the sutijecs than it did at that mo• ment. The petitions of the people had not only been neglrcted, but the petitioners had been calumniated, not withstanding that the prelates and clergy did their duty ; for out of the 22 Irish Bishops, 17 were opposed to the measure, and resoluticne to that effect bad been agreed to by them. The Synod of Ulster, a body of men not to be surpassed in their zeal for true and undefiled religion, were also opposed to it, and passed strong resole hint. Toe Methodists did the same—the clergy in Armagh, Dublin, &c., bad opposed, and even Grand Juries had protested against it. It was not Ireland only, however, that rose up against it, but Great Britain also. M my other Prelates of the Established Church, whose sentiments, as delivered from that Bench, did honour to their hearts and understanding, had spoken against it. got Great Britain only, but Scotland, also raised her voice. Scotland, where the Bible was so loved that the people would rather lose their lives than psrt with it, had not been backward in expressing her feel ings on the occasion; and an illustrious individual, Dr. Chalmers, had expressed himself to the following effect:— That the proposed system of education was the first at tempt since the Reformation to interfere with the Scrip tures by a legislative enactment, and that be could not approve of a plan which kept the Scriptures out of the hands of children—those Scriptures which formed the foundation of t rue religion. The Kilatereastreet Society was going on as favourably as it could, till Mr. Stanley thought proper to introduce a new system to favour the Catholic hierarchy. The Roman Catholic hierarchy were alarmed at the progress of this Society ; they were alarmed at the knowledge of the Scriptures which the children attained, and they entered into a corre spondence with the Noble Earl at the head of the Go vernment, the result of which was this education system —this badge of Rornanisru—this cage, which contained, he would nut say unclean, bait many-coloured birds. The Roman Catholics attended the schools; the children did not refuse, nor did their parents refuse, but the Catholic clergy opposed it, and to these clergy the Gmriiment ithosnceehh.t e e d wr y , a asmnednawd contrived o h pd ot led the nn .d cherishedoe fwa cr owds nefarious u t o s o e Y p b a p te y os in e t h t e o h s f e e t ed p -l a e y u r e :gy t , , i n — o t n s due to the clergy, and when resistance was made, covered the cou ,, try with blood.—(Hear, hear.) When the Minis term of the Crown consented to give up truth for errar— when they consented to give up the usa of the Scriptures, so lone the safeguard of the country, and bow down to it system of error in hopes of gaining to their side the eteat body of the Catholic clergy, they were scattily mistaken. They ought to have set their faces against he system at first, if they were convinced of its error ; but they yielded in order to pacify those men who were opposed to the un mutilated use of the Scriptures. They were mistaken in thinking they had gained them to their ride. The more conces s i ons are male, the more will their demands rise here, and the appetite would go on increasing till the Romish religion had raised itself to the highest pitch, and the Protestant Church was trampled in the dust. GOD forbid that he should see that day when a religion, net only hostile to Protestatrisin, but to real liberty, should prevail in the l an d. H e h ad seen the tvtanny an d t h e persecution which his poor Roman Catholic countrymen suffered, and had done all that his influence as a landlord and an inhabitant enabled him t.. do to ameliorate tear condition. He begged pardon for speaking of himself, hut he had taken those measure, which he knew to be the only means of seeuring their welfar e and happiness— namely, by the distaibution of that untnut laced word which he had been led to believe and ktiew was able to make them wise to salvation. What were the effects of those efforts it was not for him now to inquire, but he felt, and he was sure their Lordships would agree with him in feeling, that it was impossible for private exere tions to compete with public means and public e. If the Noble Earl and his Majesty's ?Ministers were de termined to establish the Rowan Catholic rm ligi.in in Ireland, which the signs of the times led him to sup. pose was an object n•it altogether out of their view—if they were determined to accomplish that object by the spoliation of the Protest•nt Church—by the destruction of ten bishoprics—and by the payment of the Roman Catholic Clergy, which, he believed, they contemplated at a future time, and perhaps out of the proceeds of this very plunder--(Hear, hear)—but, above all, if they .sere determined by this system of education to deny the Scrip tures to the people of Ireland, on their heads be the sin— on their heads be the awful respons , bility—(Hear, hear.) He feared lie had detained their Lordships too long ; but in the name of all those who were interested in the welfare of the Established Church and the Prot-stant ligion—in the nausea of the Protestants of Ireland, he called for the protection of their Lordship. The Pro testants had been the English garrison in Ireland since the time of Henry VIII. They had been true to the trust reposed in them—they had been faithful to the last axtrt mitt'. They had stood in the breach, and many c( them had fallen in it. He felt it as no small ptiviltge that he should be permitted to be their advocate in that House, or fn any other place, or to raise his humble voice in their behalf. He was enlisted in one common cause with them, and he trusted that with them he should stand or fall. He implored their Lordships to consider the petitions which he had this day laid on their table, and to bear in mind aheir contents, which wmre so im portant to the people of Ireland and to their children, He knew not what line of conduct his M ijesty's Govern , ment might next think fit to pu sue; but he trusted that every Noble Lord in that H , use would exert himself to prevent the downfall of the Church in Ireland ; and he implored the Not Lords on his side of the H use not to be absent in the hour of need, but to be ready at their pests, and to answer " Content," or " Not content," to whatever measures might he proposed.—(Hear.) It it was not the object of his 1114jus y's Ministers to de troy the Protestant religion in Ireland, he implored them to discontinue this plan for propagating the Romans Catholic religion in that country. Their system was not a system which Protestants attached to their religion could conscientiously uphold. If his Majesty's Ministers were nut strong enough, or were not willing to ?mein , ' by the truth, he only asktd them to withdraw from the Educe tion Societies all public grants, and to leave the who le concern in the hands of those who were willing to under take it—who would giue up their time, their money, and their influence to uphold and support that which teal knew would benefit the country. He implored his Mom jesty's Ministers to spare the country the expense as well as the diserace, of continuing that system; and he trusted he should never see a Prcres ant Government, British Peers, and a British Parliament, unite with a R iman Catholic Priesthood to deprive any portion of the inhabi tants of this empire of the immutable word of God ; but that they would he induced to liven to the time and anxious desire of these wins wished to see their country don ish, and the empire continue united. He moved that the petitions be laid on the table. The Archbishop of DUBLIN observed that it seemed as if he were placed on his trial in consequence of his intimate connection with the Board of Education in Ire land. He was to be tried, it appeared, not only for an attachment to Romanism, but also for having, in con junction with his colleagues, been guilty of malverao ion in the management of the public money ; for the Natile Earl had not merely charged them with being lavish in its use, but had accused them of perverting it to purposes of bribery and corruption. As he (the Archbishop of Dublin) was not much used to address assemblies like the present, he hopiel their Lordship would allow for the difficulties of his situation. (Hear, hear, hear.) He had been invited by his Majesty's Mini sters to take a part in the Board of E location in Ire land, and, after making due inquiry on the sulij e - , he had consented to do so for the good, as he con ceived, of the country. To him it app , ared that the plans proposed by his Majesty's Ministers were the hest that could be adopted. It was diffieult to ascertain the exact facts of the case. He was told one thing by one party, and another by another. Some asserted that the Irish Schools were making progress; others that they were very much checked in their progress. He therefore found himself under the necessity of collecting facts fur himself. He did not wish to impute to those who imptuned his conduct any wilful deviation from truth ; no doubt they thought their supposition with respect to him was true ; but be had never been connected with any party. All who knew his life knew that he had never connected hits self with any party He was ready to support this mea sure of his Majesty's Ministers, if he thought it beneficial, but not otherwise. He did not mean to say that there was any political turpitude in being attached to a party ; but that was the very reason why he put a disclaimer upon the subject—a character which did an: defend itself was not worth defending. He had seen, the Right Rev. Prelate continued, several schools in which none of the clamours complained of were heard ; and he had conver sations with different persons about the nature of the com plaints in the other schools. Some objected against Cr. tholics being educated in their own creed—some against Protestants being so educated : and some objected against educating either class. It scented, therefore, to him a right system to leave a certain portion of each week for the Minister of each respective denomination to educate the children belonging to his flock. He regretted that such dissensions should exist in Ireland ; but they did exist, and it was necessary to meet the evil somehow, and to take care that in stopping the tide from flowing one way, they did not set it flowing another. Their Lordships had only decided that the system ought to be tried. He would call upon them, therefore, to give it a sufficiently long trial. It had been complaiued (and !,e did not mean to say that the complaint was not just) that the Kildare-street Society had not bad a sufficient trial ; vet for a good many years it had had inspectors of its own, model schools, and books compiled, collected, and composed for its purposes. It had had masters and mistresses who were brought up under its own superin tendence. The masters and mistresses now had been en tirely educated under the establishment. Now model school', in which the teachers them-elves were to be edu cated for the purposes of tuition, were of the very first importance, in any establishment of the kind. But the model school for boys is the Merrion-square establish ment was only opened yesterday ; and the model school for girls would not be opened till after Easter. It could not, therefore, be said that the system had had anything like a fair trial. It was ridiculous to speak of calling foe accounts relative to the progress of the schools when this essential part of the establishment had only been com menced yesterday, and when the whole had only been in operation for a year. That would be acting like a child that digs up the seeds which he has sown to see whether they are growing ; but if an adult did so, there would be some reason to suspect that he did not intend them to grow.—(Hear, hear.) The secretaries ought nut to be perpetually put out of the line of their duties in eider to make up returns, which occupied a considerable time that ought to be devoted to objects connected with t;ie institution. The Board consisted of persons who hail other occupations, which rendered it impossible for them, if they possessed double the strength and diligence of or dinary men, to perform the tasks sought to be imposed upon them. There had been several hundred applications for the establishment of schools which they had not bad time fully to consider, though they had e xt-rted their ut • most diligence to forward the i n quiries necessary,___ before these applications could be accede d to. Wit bregard to the expenditure, all hr could • y was, that they hid been It could not be expected th a t evrupulously economita• he could bear in mind all the cases wnich had come before the Board, and he could not remember the 49.cmes &l.