The Sun. — London, England, 1830-02-23 00:00:00

L -- - r je, ..e.,..) C ~`tG~~~ 7 - ~, ~ ) • • fi . • • • Q. X -.3 , ~.• 4' • . • " : (4; • • • , ~ \ 4 ,2 v, /4, "- 14. OP P ` l ' . "" e;,) ekgre:4) 1111 , 1 j . 17 ~ _O O - 1 A IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. :. - 52 92 HOUSE OF LORDS—(LAST NIGHT.) NATIONAL DISTRESS. The Earl of ROSEBERY, seeing a Noble Lord io 1 ; 14 e , who had given notice of a motion for an Inquir, into 1 4 State of the Nation, begged to ask the Noble Lirl ;f had any Objection then to state, more specifically, what 119 °Uld be the nature of his motion ? Earl STAN HOPE replied, that his motion would he— That their Lordships resolve themselves into a Com!uiftee p{ the whole House, to take into their consideration the In ternal State of the Nation." Their Lordships would ob- Berve that his motion did not include the foreign relations °I the country, and he should avoid all discussion on them. CAWDOR presented a petition from a town in "inbrokeshire, complaining of distress, and praying far a 'Veal of the duties on AL& and Beer. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented a petition , , 'Rned by all the Magistrates who attended the Quarter by o f th e northern part of the county of Wilts, and Y upwards of three thousand persons, complaining - of great d istress, and praying that their Lordships would institute 44 inquiry into the state of the nation.—The petition was toad and laid on the table. SLAVERY. The Mirjuie of LANSDOWNE presented another pe • from Lewes, in SUlifiCX, praying for the Abolition °' Slavery. EAST INDIA TRADE. , Lord DYNEVOR presen t e d a p e tition from the Wool- TuManufacturers, praying that the Trade to the East In ures and China might be thrown open. WOOL TRADE. The Duke of RICHNIOND presented a petition from neighbourhood of Hocucastle, in Leicestershire, signed ii ' B4 s farmers, Leing wool.growers, complaining of great of extreme porerty, of an increase of crimes, stat ing that all the bonds of society were loosened, and pray 14g their Lordships for relief, particularly for protection 4 gAinst the introduction of Foreign Wool. TURNPIKE ROADS—IRELAND. The Duke of RICHMOND presented another petition ' r eltk Mr. Dillon, a coach-proprietor in Dublin, praying that the laws regulating turnpikes in Ireland might be revised. On the motion of the Earl of SHAFTESBURY, the evidence taken before the Committee of the Lords sitting to inquire into the Coal Trade, was ordered to be printed from time to time. Mr. Pickering presented, at the Bar an account of the receiptr and disbursements of the Liverpool Ddeks. Adjourned. NOUSE OF COMMONS—(LAST' NIGHT.) Mr. Vickery, from the Trustees of the Liverpool Docks, Presented Account. of their Receipts and Disbursements. Mr. Moore, from the Bankrupts' Office, presented Re turns of the Number of Bankrupt Petitions. New Writs were moved for the Borough of Rye, in the r%OOl of R. Bonham, Esq. who had accepted the Chiltern ilundrds; and for the County of Essex, in the room of Sir Eliab Harvey, deceased. Mr. STANLEY presented a petition from the Tanners of praying for the Repeal of the Tax on Leather. Mr. O'CONNELL complained of the vexatious conduct Of the Excise in Ireland with respect to that and similar t axec—The petition was ordered to be printed. DISTRESS. - . Petitions complaining of distress were presented by Sir GI atiaT HZ ATIICOTE from the Owners and Occupiers of Land in ♦arious Parishes of the County of Southampton ; Alr. FY LIE, front the ribbon-manufacturers of Bedwith, in the County of Warwick; by Lord EUSTON, from the llerehants, Traders, and other Inhabitants of Bury St. Edmunds; and by Mr. SIANEY, from the Hundred of Ria bridge, in the County of Suffolk, complaining of severe distress, and praying for relief.—Ordered to be printed. On the motion of Colonel SIBTHORP, au Account was ordered to be laid before the House, of the amount of duties paid upon boots, shoes, slippers, and galoshes, dis tinguishing those made of leather from those male of silk and satin, imported from France in IEO7, 18'28, and 1829. EAST INDIA MONOPOLY. Petitions against the East India Monopoly were pre sented by Sir J. Nawrowr, from the City of Waterford ; and by Lord STANLEY, from Great and Little Bolton, in 'Lancashire, praying for the abolition of time East India Alonopoly.—Referred to the Committee on the subject. FISHERIES IN IRELAND. Petitions against the Discontinuance of the Bounties on the Irish Fisheries were presented by Mr. LAMB from the Merchants, Traders, Fishermen, and Fish-curers of Dna garsrun ; and by Mr. G. PONSONBY, from those of Youghal, Waterford.—Ordered to be printed. On the motion of Mr. M. FITZGERALD, Accounts were ordered to be laid before the House, of the amount of the Duties and Excise in Ireland, for the last ten years. COURT OF ADMIRALTY IN IRELAND. Sir J. NEWPORT, adverting to the various reports and documents on the Table, with respect to the Court of Admiralty in Ireland, wished to know from the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, whether it was in the contem plation of his Majesty's Government to prepare any mea sure upon the subject? Mr. Secretary PEEL replied, that with respect to the Judge of the Court in question, be held his office quamdiu ae bent gesserit ; bat he could assure the Hon. Baronet that the reports upon the subject, both of the Committee of that House and of the Commission of Inquiry, had been taken into consideration by his Mizjesty's Government, who felt that they had no alternative but to call the at tention of the Legislature to the state of the Court. PRIVILEGES OF THE HOUSE. Mr. LITTLETON gave notice, that on Friday next he would move a preparatory Resolution, arising flout the petition which he had - presented the other day—namely, that it was contrary to the law and usage of Parliament for any Member of that-House, for fee or reward, to en gage directly or indirectly in the prosecution of any priVate business before that House. Mr. D. W. HARVEY gave notice, that, as an Amend ment to the Resolution of the Hon. Member for Stafford shire, he would move a Resolution that it was contrary to the law and usage of Parliament for any Member of that House to sit in a Committee on private business, in which business he had any interest, direct or indirect. PUNISHMENT FOR LIBEL. Lord AIORPETH gave notice, that on the 4th of May he would move for the repeal of the Act of the 6th Georg e Iv, subjecting any person convicted for the second time of lib e l to the punishment of transportation. Ile gave his notice for that distant day, to allow of the return of Honourable and Learned Members from the circuit. PETITION FROM THE JEWS. Mr- It GRANT, in rising to present a petition from the Jews of the :Metropolis, praying to be relieved from the civil disabilities under which they laboured, observed that a misapprehension of his object bad gone forth to the public; it having been stated that he had given a notice of a Motion on the subject—whereas, all that be had done Wass to give notice of his intention to present a petition respecting it. When the House considered that for above . eighty y ears no collective body of the Jew i sh community 11 appeared b e f ore th at House, and when they considered `„" " object whi c h t h e pet i t i oners h a d i n v i ew , h e truste d d e Y would fed that the subject well deserved grave and iiberate consideration. The petition which lie was about to present was from a number of merchants and p be rt, Jews, an d nat i ve b orn su bj ects o f t hi s country. It ril a e s te ri signedpols by 597 persons, all resident in and near the , comprehending, in the first place, all the per illaa of the Jewish persuasion of station and influence ; 111141 ° the second place, of the substantial tradesmen of that Persuasion—care having been taken that only individuals cf reoPectability should be permitted to sign the petition. Th e . Petitioners stated, that by the oaths at present pre selib"l by law, they were excluded from those civil offices , 41111 benefits enjoy e d by th e i r f e ll ow - su bj ects . Th ere were two things to which it was necessary that the House should Pay its especial attentioe. First, whether the prayer eti of the petition is not well entitled to the serious and tethparartbile.el consideration of the House; and secondly, complaining of the grievances.. With respect e grievances he did not deem it necessary to add to the statements contained in the petition ; for it set forth, fully a d JewislT- t emperately, - the evils under which persons of the Persuasion now laboured. Man of these, as the y petititi on tseeverated, arose more frost the perversion of itself the len . - and e .rnm mere usage, rather than from any law ; for it was usage which imposed upon them one of the obnoxious oath, that barred them from their civil rights. H e that until the combd not b ut i mp l ore t h e H ouse t o reco ll ec t, }gassin g of the Bill, which so wisely gave re lief to Protestant Dissenters _—the Jews were not practi cally subject to many of the difficulties to which they were now (.11)° " 1 . Ere the passing. of the measure alluded to, the Jews might annually claim the benefit of the Indemnity Acts, but this being no longer the case, it could not be pre tended that the grievanc e s under which the Jews laboured, Were not substantial grievances ; or, that they had not been a whist th e s i m i lar grievances under wh'cli others _ur as c , iabourcli, l i ad at length been entirely removed. This w an), aiottteviderit th a t h e d i d out 'Lean it necessary to make another similar eas, and an attempt' to . remove these dis ahili,ie4 011 a large scale, one entire bran c h of th • Bri t ish E • had shaken with convulsive alarms imani i p ou , aba _ . , L • mpre, am compelled an ..0 meat of the measure. The next pies- B 0 r;rt 60 0 S 0 0 7 6 ty's And 21ea an— ii g •ley ioa ila er. adaii • .day, wo• dull. for and since dcr _.,.,.• Dd. , -pats. Br. (Id. —Oats. —Oats, OIL-- 106. tb. •e, tbe Kb , of I, of a mville, &d 1 of -I t, ; 4161 , le Biel *4WD; • if pieirsitti ire, tb! of ken. S Ho. Wileoar 'lefarik Intof d, Est rf eterkil kinsom, ^of market, KS, AO .No. 11,684. tion for the House to take into consideration was, the num ber and character of the persons seeking relief. The peti tion Was signed by a number of persons of the highest cha racter in this metropolis, distinguishes! not only usr situation and wealth, but fur probity and worth—persons of the most unimpeachable honour and integrity, and deomed - so in this metropolis, which was pre-eminently rich in such examples.—(Hear, hear.)—The petitioners kelonged to a class that was peaceable, unoffendine, useful, and industrious, and a more exemplary body of persons did not exist. If .any opportunity offered, with very few exceptions, the great body of the Jewish persuasion throughout the United Kingdom would attach their sig natures to this petition. This body may he estimated as amounting to about thirty thousand persons; and they did not attempt to enforce their claims, but they set them for ward in language of profound respect fur the Legislature. Concessions to a body so peaceable and loyal, however powerful they might be, could not be regarded with the slightest degree of danger. With reference to this unfor tunate race, the usage to which they had been exposed he could expatiate upon at great length, but he would forbear from such a topic., reserving himself to a future occasion. Considering the atrocious persecutions to which these people had been exposes! for centuries,—considering those persecutions iu all their horrible forms of actual and- ex cessive cruelty, he must say that these had given place to scarcely a less galling martyrdom of bitter obloquy and insult. Considering the patience under which these bad been borne, and considering the intelligent and beneficial exertions of this class under every law calculated to make them bad citizens, he could not but trust that the House and nation would see that so long an arrear of accumulated injustice and oppression could not be atoned for by any partial or paisimonioue concession. —(Hear, hear. )—Eng land had heaped injuries with extreme prodigality upon this persecuted race, and let her not be niggardly and sparing in her measure of reparation. Mr. WA 1W would detain the House bet for a very few moments, for all he meant to do was to add his testimony to that of the Honourable Member who had just sat down, in favour of the worthiness! of that class of persons who were now before the House in the character of petitioners. He had opp,atunities of knowing a very large portion of this body of persons, and could say, without any fear of contradiction, that a more honourable class did not exist. As he had disapproved of the Bill in favour of concessions to the Catholics, he felt it his duty to say that a more safe concession could not be granted than that prayed for in the petition. He was prepared to assist the Hon. Member in all his views in favour of the petitioners. Sir R. INGLIS said, that there was a clause in the last Catholic Relief Bill, by which, among others, the Jews were pre;:lud,d from certain civil advantages, but part of these were withheld in order to preserve some por, tion of Christianity at least. Two years ago the Govern ment had separated the Church of England from the Le gislature, and when they had last year made a still further separation, he had then predicted that in another year they would separate Christianity itself ft om the Legis'ature.— (Coughing.)—The last Act had been spoken of as one cal culated to preserve inviolate all the institutions of the country. lle regarded a Bill of this kind as separating the last link which bound the religion of the country with the Legislature. The Hon. Member had stated that the number of Jews was so small as to occasion no sort of alarm, and that their conduct, moreover, had always been just and peaceable. It was not enough, however, that they were to be admitted to the practice of the law, and to corporate offices; but they required seats in Parliament, and eligibility to all the executive functions of Govern ment. Here was the spirit of encroachment proceeding with rapid strides. Ile was nut to be told that a small body of men could not, by acting together, render essential services to the country, or that they could not inflict very formidable injuries. In the present form of Parliament very many Jews might be able to enter the Legislature by means well understood by those who heard him ; but in the event of those reforms which some were urging, probably there might not be a single Jew able to procure a seat in that House. But it was not on any calculation of numbers, but upon a point of principle, that he wished to preserve the institutions of the country, and not to separate the last link that bound the religion of the country to the Le gislature and Government. Mr. O'CONNELL thought, that, instead of disapprov ing, the Hun. Member for Oxford ought to approve of this petition, upon the ground of principle. The Hon. Member had talked of disapproving of the petition from Christian motives ; but, in his humble opinion, he thought that the House would be more Christian-like if they did unto others as they would be done by.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—By carrying into effect that principle of conces sion, it would be found the more beneficial the wider it was diffused. After a few worts from Mr. GRANT, the petition was ordered to be printed. The Hon. MEMBER then presented a sitnilar petition from Moses Solomon, of Portsei, in the county of Hants. —Ordered to be printed. Tile Bill to amend the Poor Laws was read a fast and second time. TREASURER OF THE NAVY. Sir JAMES GRAHANI said he rose merely to post pone tie motion of which he bud given notice, relative to the appointment of the Treasurership of the Navy. He should postpone it to Friday next, as that would afford an opportunity of procuring some statements from his Ma jesty's Ministers, as to the new arrangement of business in the Navy Department. Lord JOliN RUSSELL moved for certain returns of wool, hides, skins, and other commodities, imported into England, from 1792 to the last day to which they could he made up. Mr. PORTMAN moved the second reading of the Poor Removal Bill.—The Bill was ordered to be com mitted on Friday neat. WAYS AND MEANS. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the Order of the Day for bringing up the report of the Committee of Ways and Means, and the report was brought up by the Chairman, Sir A. Grant. QUARANTINE IN AMERICA. Mr. O'CONNELL merely wished to put a question to the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite—Did his Majesty's Government approve of the law in America by which vessels were placed under quarantine merely for having any person of colour on board ? Mr. PEEL said, that within the I:st few days informa • tion had been received by his Majesty's Government of a law passed in the State of Georgia, which imposed a qua rantine of forty days upon vessels having persons of colour on board, whether they had sailed from America or from foreign ports. Reference had been made to the King's Advocate, to ascertain whether the passing of this Art, avowedly not for the objects of quarantine, but for the pur pose of preventing any communication between the Negroes, was not contrary to the Commercial Treaties existing be tween this country and the United States. SUPPLY. Sir Amtx. GILANT brought up the Report of the Committee of Supply. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the Order of the Day for the House to resolve itself into a Committee of Supply. Sir HENRY HARDINGE moved, that " A sum not • exceeding 3,015,3331., be granted to defray the Expellees of the Land Forces, exclusive of those in India.P Colonel DAVIES felt it perfectly unavailing to make any opposition to any demands of Government; but he could not help entering his protest against the spirit of wanton extravagance which! characterized the Estimates, He cared not one farthing how the Estimates were voted or how they were spent; for those who opposed them were not listened to, but were deserted by those from whom they had a right to look fer the most support. Had the Hon. Member for Cumberland brought forward his mo tion respecting the Treasurer of the Navy, large numbers would have voted with him, for few men could hope to benefit by the job of the appointment; but when they came to the Army Estimates, Members would not oppose them, so many, with th e ir friends and connexion, werein terested in the extravagance of Ministers. He said this out of no hostility to Government, for be believed the Ad ministration to be as good a one as the country could get; but if the Ministers refused to do anything for the people, they must not be surprised to see him and his friends join ing the two other parties which were hostile to Gore , n ment, and probably something better for the country mi . ;ht spring from the chaos which might ensue. Sir HENRY PARNELL, before he said any thing to the number of the troops, would wish to refer to what had fallen from the Chanceaor of the Exchequer, on a former evening, relative to the whole amount of the public expen. LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY .23, 1130. diture subject to diminution, being 12,000,000/. If he Ir.(' confined that statement to the sums voted annually, he would have been correct, The proposition of the lion. Member for Aberdeen was for a diminution of 5,000,000/. which the Chancellor of the Exchequer said was impos sible upon an expenditure of 12,000,0001., which was all that was capable of diminution. Now the Report of tfe Committee of Finance was, that out of the total ex penditure of 55,000,0001. only 35,000,000/. were in- capable of diminution, leaving 20,000,000/. upon which deductions 'night be effected. The Debt. the Civil list, and Superannuation Allowances were all that did not ad mit of reduction. In addition to this 20,000,000 1 . there was the Sinking Fund of 3,000,0001., and the reduction of the Three and a Half and Four per Cents. amounts to 2,000,000/., so that the suns total upon which deductions might be made was not 12,000,000/. as the Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated, but 25,000,0001. With re spect to the number of men absolutely necessary for the public service, he thought 83,000 rank and file more than sufficient. In 1823 the state of Greece and Turkey re quired that we should retain larger garrisons in the Medi- terrane an, but that necessity no leuger existed. A great saving might also be effected by withdrawing 5,000 men from the Canadas and Jamaica. In conclusion, he bad only to impress on the House that, under the circum stances of the country and of Europe, it was to be con sidered if the forces to which he had alluded should not be reduced. Sir H. HARDINGE said, that if he understood the Hon. Baronet, he (Sir H. Parnell) declared that, in his opinion, the force, 88,000 rank and file, including the troops employed in India, "was more than sufficient for the service of the country, and that it might be reduced by seven or 8,000 men on account of the altered circum stances in which we then stood with respect to the lonian Isles. But he would beg to ask the Hon.' Baronet how long was it since these alterations had taken place ? He had within the last few days had the honour of receiving the book on Financial Reform, written by the Hoz. Ba ronet, Chairman of the late Committee of Finance, and in that book he (Sir H. Hardinge) saw that the con clusion to which the Hon. Baronet had come from the evidence before that Committee' was, that a force of 87,000 men, including the troops in India, was ne cessary for all the public services of the country; the which force, he wished the House to remark, was within one thousand of the number appointed for the year 1830; and therefore, as the Hon. Baronet's book had only been published within the last few days—since which, it would seem, these altered circumstances had become imperative, he (Sir H. Hardinge), if they were now to come to a vote upon the subject, would claim the vote of the lion. Baronet. Another point to which the Hon. Member had alluded was the number of troops kept at Gibraltar and Malta. Now, with respect to this, he had simply to say, that the garrison of Gibraltar was now less by 1,000 than it had been in the year 1792. Iu 1792 the number was 4,221 ; in 1830 it was only 3,486. Again, as to the Canadas, he had merely to advert to the papers laid before the Finance Committee, from which it appeared that in 1792 the amount of force maintained there wa-s 3,247, while in 1530 it was 2,905 ; and, consequently, that there had been a reduction of 300 men, indeed, as lie had already stated on a former evening, he could, with the single exception of New South Wales, run through all our Colonies, and show that the number of troops generally employed in them was less than in 1792. He hoped, therefore, that the Hon. Baronet would re-consider his op position to the payment of the - men who had been voted for the public service during the present .year. Sir H. PARNELL said, in explanation, that what he had stated was, that as the number of 84,000 men, which was that which the Duke of Wellington and tl►e other military officers bad declared it necessary to maintain for the public services in the year 1829, was a larger force by 9,000 than that which was kept up in the peace pre ceding the war of 1793, he thought that 9,000 rank and file ought to be reduced; . but now he certainly had a right to look for further reduction, the affairs of Turkey and Greece being now brought to a final settlement. Sir J. WROTTESLEY was opposed to the grant.— He, however, thought that while they agreed to continue the number of men, they must also continue the expendi ture ; he, theref ire, did not blame the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the other Members of the Administration, all of whom lie believed discharged their several duties with great zeal and ability—but he blamed the House of Commons.—(Hear, hear)—lt was the House of Com mons that left the load of taxation upon the people—it was the House of Commons that in fact inflicted it. His Majesty's Ministers brought down the various Estimates— they agreed to them—and the Chancellor of the Exchequer was then, of course, bound to provide by the ways and means for this expenditure which they had pointed out.._ (Hear, bear.) He thought, then, twat the House of Com mons ought to insist upon some reduction in the number of rank and file; and he felt it his duty accordingly to propose something effective. He ,therefore begged to suggest, that two battalions of the Guards and one regi ment of the Household Troops should be reduced, and that the Cavalry should be brought down to the scale of 1792, which, as compared with the present, was in the ratio of 196 rank and file to 305. He had, on a former occasion, objected to having the Household Troops retained in London since the establishment of the New Police ; but he acknowledged himself convinced by-the reasons adduced by the Right Hon. and Gallant Secretary, on a preceding evening. lie thought, however, that a regiment of the line ought occasionally to be sent to Windsor. Much good had resulted, during the last reign, by meritorious officers attracting the attention of his Majesty. The Marquis of BLANDFORD most unequivocally denied having been influenced by factious motives in the course he had lately pursued in that House; and he said that if that party commonly called Brunswickers were to return to power, and propose the repeal of that Relief Bill which had been passed last Session, he would feel it his duty to oppose the repeal as strenuously as he had last year objected to the passing of the measure. He therefore hoped that no man would ever agent attribute to him factious or unworthy motives. Now, to approach the question before the House :—lle protested, in the name of the injured and insulted people of England, against Mi niiters laying their sacrilegious hands upon the public money. The distress was now so great, that there was great danger lest the very foundations of society sh ou ld be shaken. One Minister of the Crown had spoken with much fairner.s ❑nd candour on the matter, but another had attempted to gloss it over ; therefore it was the duty of the Representatives of the people to inquire into the real state of the ease, and search after the remedies, else would they compromise the interests they had been sent to guard. He thought they should not agree to this grant. They should not give Ministers the power of suppressing the popular Cl y. The rwijoritics of Friday showed the public what they had to expect from the House and from the Administration ; and the tidings of these majorities were now spreading to the remotest limits of the kingdom, and in all quarters exciting disappointment and dismay. But let not Ministers mistake the signs of the times. The people demanded a reduction of taxation, and let Government he assured that the voice of the people. as not to be disregarded. In the name of the people of England, he demanded the reduction of all taxes upon labour and indasti y. All those imposts whieli pre vented the employment of the people ought to be removed. --(Hear, hear.)—He wished tkat the stare of the country should be properly represented to his Majesty, and he would conclude by quoting the words of Lord Bacon—" Kings have to deal with their neighbours, their wives, and their children, their Prelates or Clergy, their nobles, their second nobles or gentlemen, their merchants, their commons, and their men of war ; and from all these arise dangers, if care and circumspection be not used. For their merchants they are versa porta ; and if they flourish not a kingdom may have good limbs, but will have empty veins and nourish little. Taxes and impost on them do little good to tha King's Revenue; for that he wins in the hundred he loseth in the shire ; the particular rate being increased, but the total, bulk of trading being rather decreased. For their Commons there is little dancer from them, except it be where they have great and potent heads : or where you meddle with the point of religion or customs or means of life." May these words reach the Royal ear, and sink deeply into the Royal heart. Sir G. MURRAY said, he rose to speak upon a few military points ; but he would take the opportunity of stating. that he wa s not one Of those who attributed fac tious motives t o the Noble l'ilarquis. Every Member was free to express his peculiar opinions, and he could assure the Noble Marquis that he would always listen to him with attention and respect, however widely he might differ with him on certain points. With respect to the observation of an lion. Baronet about the Guards, be would say that it was a great advantage to habituate them to service out 111 London ; and he could only say, that it was always the custom to keep a battalion of Guards at Windsar. Sir IL HERON said lie was touch disappointed at the small retrenchment effected by his Majesty's Ministers, but he could not agree with the Noble Marquis that the people would be disappointed, bee sure they had long abandoned the hope of receiving any relief Isom those who were falsely called their Representatives. Ile believed that a great reduction miAt be made in the militai y estimates without injuring the efficiency of the service ; a great swing too might be gradually made in the half-pay. It was unjust to the country that that which was originally intended merely as a provision for superannuated and wounded men, should be now converted into a fee-simple and transferrable estate. Ile contended, therefore, that half-pay should not be suffered to be transferred by the purchasea of Commissions. With respect to pensions, too he thought a reduction might be effected ; not by interfer ing with those already granted, by tusking some regulation which would only entitle those hereafter entering the army to lower pensions earned by a longer service. He consi dered that there would be no hardship in this when they looked to the condition of the navy, and observed how 'smell less advantageous were the prospects of the sailor. Ile would neat ask what had become of the promise of re duction in Ireland, and why useless colonies should be re tained at such an enormous expense? He thought, for instance, that the lonian Isles ought to be at once given up to the ally from which they had been something un kindly taken. Mr. MABERLY said that, in consequence of the abo lition of the Finance Committee, the time for making any useful opposition to a profuse expenditure had gone by ; they might now examine and consider the various items, but they possessed not the power of doing snore. The Government were determined that in this great branch of the expenditure there should be very little saving. But, however hopeless of producing any good effect, he could not refrain from remarking that the simple payment of 20,000 men by the East India Company was by Tin means sufficient, when it was considered that the country was put to a great expense for the maintenance of depots anal other preparatory establishments. He suggested, there fore, that an additional charge ought to be placed on the East India Company. He also recommended that the payment of General Officers should be fixed, and that when Colonels of regiments they should not b.; permitted to be contractors. He did not propose to have agency alto g ether abolished, but he thought a large proportion of the Civil Establishment ought to be done away with, by the consolidation of offices He knew it was useless for him to say this, and that the gallant General would get up and advocate the existing system. And indeed lie had upon all occasions found reason to remark, in the Finance Com mittee, that each gentleman who gave evidence was so strongly attached to his own profession, that little reduc tion could be effected in his department, if the opinions he professed were- attended to. But he thought the House ought not, upon the present occasion, to he influenced by Naval and Military opinions, or else no great saving ever could be made. In allying thin, however, lie spoke under the melancholy impression that they only enjoyed the right of examining the item, without the power of amending them. Mr. HUME had been strongly urged by many of his friends to make no further opposition, because it was evi dently useless; but the distresses of the country urged him on. It was now certai❑ that 89,000 soldiers and 30,000 seame❑ would be forced upon the country. Still, how ever, he would not discontinue his opposition. See what a state they were in,—he meant the House. Every Hon. Member on the other side of the House to whom be had spoken had said—" This is very bad ; the establishments ought to be reduced." "'Then said I," continued the Hon. Member, " why don't you vote with us?" " No," they replied, "we can't vote with you, but we will do any thing else."—(Hear, and laughter.)—Out of the House, therefore, where they could do nothing, Gentle- men would express their real wishes, and say - what the people wanted ; but in the House, where they could (1,) something, they were silent. Now %vas not this a proor that Gentlemen came here to serve themselves, and not to serve the country ?—(Hear, and laughter.)—When the House of Commons acted in this way from within, force was to be expected from without, as the only mode of ob taining redress.—(Loud cheers from the Opposition benehos.)--What was it that eAnpelled even the Sultan— what was it that compelled even the most despotic Go- vernments to listen to the complaints of the people, but the dread of the acts of the people? The lion. Member for Kent (Sir E. Knateldmil) had stated on a former night that there were only two ways of obtaining a remedy. .• The first was to bring up the prices of every article to the rate that existed before the peace, in order that those who produced them might thus be enabled to pay the taxes. To this proposition he (Mr. Hume) could never assent; neither could he sanction any alteration in the currency, believing as he did that we ought to have allx,ol and permanent metallic standard, instead of a paper cir. ciliation, which was always liable to vary. The a cowl course proposed by the Hon. Member was, to reduce our establishments in proportion to the reduction which had taken place iu the - value of money. In this he (Mr. Hume) entirely concurred ; and, unless Ministers (lid so, they would be compelled to do it by the people.— (Hear, bear.)--But, when Ministers were called upon to reduce the taxes, what was it that was done by the Rerpresentatives of the people in that House, or those who called themselves by that name? Why, out of 658 Members who were returned to the House, only 93 voted in favour of reduction.—(Hear, hear. )—With such an extreme disproportion, it might very fairly be pre sumed that any stranger coming here, and seeing the votes on - both sides, might be led to conclude that the people of England desired no reduction, and were per fectly content with matters as they stood. The stranger would naturally think that the wishes of the p, ogle of En land were expreswd, not by the minority but by the ma jority, whereas the.very -reverse was the case. lie would call upon Ministers to look at what had recently been done by the States of Holland. They stopped the supplies, and refused to grant a single shilling till the grievances of the people were redressed. The consequence was, that both the King of the Netherlands and his Mini.ters were ob liged, however reluctantly, to meet the wants and wishes of the people. lie (Mr. Hume) would be glad to see something of the kind done in this country ; it had been done in former times, when the necessity for it was no less urgent than at present. He should like to see Mini sters placing their whole strength upon the affections of the people, and not, as they were, depsuding for support upon a few magnates, who acted as if they had nothing in common with the people, consulting neither their wants. wishes, nor interests.—(Hear.)—Of what use was the House of Commons, except to speak the mind of the people? But could this House of Commons be said to speak the; mind of the people ? No man surely would be bold enough to say that it did.—(Loud cheers.)—No House of Commons, with such an At torney-General as we had now, could for a mo ment be said to speak the mind of the people.— (Repeated cheers.)—lle, himself, had often stated that one of the great benefits of a House of Commons, was , that the Attorney-General had no right to exercise his authority within these walls, and restrain the freedom of speech.—(Loud cries of Hear, hear ! from the Oppo sition Benches. )—ln what a situation would they be, if, upon making any complaint, or stating any grievance, they were li Able to be brought np, and rendered amenable, by the Attorney-General acting under the direction of the Duke of Wellington ?—(Hear, hear.)—He was sure that no public officer would do so, unless acting under the di rection of the Cabinet, or of the Duke of Wellington, who was the Cabinet.—(Cheers and laughter.)—Let Ministers only look to the thous•utds who were starving throughout every part of the country—let them only look to the num berless paupers that covered the land in every quarter—let them look at these, an 1 many other equally evident marks of misery, and he would thsn ask them to consider whether they were not fearful signs of approaching dan ger, such as no Government ought to pass unheeded? Mi nisters ought to look to them before even the most patient were pressed to au extremity beyond endurance. The time might probably soon arrive foe such a crisis. Should he say that he would be sorry for it? Quite the contrary—he should rejoke when it did arrive, seeing that Ministers were ie. - sensible and dead to the voice of the nation.— (Cheers.)—lt was only by an event of this description that decidedly despotic power answered controlled.).ea r representation of the State.—(Cheers )-- What passed in Government could be brought to a sense of its duty, and b people l i i i e a d u: l i g o 1 ' ,r t . : c m , i asked, n tl was ever despotic power exercised in this country ? Ile for t p lte ut i that House was most commonly for the benefit of the few 1 PRICE 7D. to the prejudice of the many. He would call upon the Right lion. Gentleman opposite, or upon any of she Hon. Members, to pat their hands to their hearts, and say whe ther it was right to persist in such a course? He would ask them to say whether we could continue our present vast expenditure; and then the question was, whether or not any opposition should be made to it ? For his own part, he was firmly resolved to oppose every vote to the very last. He would not give in even though he should be beaten again and again, as had often-happened to him be fore He knew full well that public exposure of; abuses was one thine, and success in correcting them another.— lie had often before combatted the extravagance of all our public establishments, and so repeatedly called the Littera- fion of Ministers to the vote of 1,500/. a year to the Go vernor of the Military College, who performed no ade quate duty for such a salary, that at last they agreed to a reduction by what he considered a very unwilling.acquiee cence. The Attorney-General might say that he (Mr. Hume) was brin g ing the House into disrespect, he would, however, tell the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, that the House deserved to be brought into disrespect. He con tended that every act of continued expenditure beyond the resources of the country, served more to bring the Howse into disrespect than all the paper bullets of the Standard, or of any other newspaper. Those who could not stand attacks of this sort, were not fit to manage the affairs of this country, or of any-other.—(Hear, hear.) — They were told that there were no general complaints of distress among the people; he would say that we were fest approaching a crisis when the people of England must rouse themselves and vindicate their own rights. He, therefore, hoped to see a cordial union of active co-opera tion, from one end of the country to the other.—(Hear.) He might be told that be was now using inflammatory language; his answer was, that in times like. these such language was necessary. After every :fair trial was made, then it was high time that an unfair trial should be made. —(Hear, hear.) Ile had repeatedly warned his Ma jesty's Ministers, that if they continued exaction, they well deserve re-acticn, and they must blame themselves if pu nishment should follow. His decided opinion was, that nn vote whatever ought to be agreed to, unless a clear and satisfactory statement were made of the purpose for which it was intended. From all that he had already seen, his only hope was that the people would take matters into their own hands —(Cries of " Order, order," and "Hear, hear.") Ile maintained that the people had a right to do so. He was prepared to show that the amount of money raised for the Army was most exorbitant. The first question then that suggested itself was, whether with the present reduced prices of all articles, the pay of the Army ought to be kept up at the rate it was when prices were high? He had the authority of Lord Palmerston, the late Secretary at War, for stating that a large sum might be saved by a small reduction in the pay of each man. Why, he would ask, was it necessary to keep up so large a number of men in time of peace? The number of Household Troops alone was 14,038, including Life Guards, Cavalry, and Infantry. Now by a paper signed " Palmerston," which had been laid before the House, he found the following result :—The expenditure of the Life Guards amounted altogether to 32,0001. Every Life Guardsman cost the country 741. 4s. 11d. without including his horse and other allowances, which made the whole charge about 1501. a year, a sum that exceeded the average pay of a clerk in any mercan tier office. The expence for each dragoon was 561. 11s. 5d ; for each Foot Guardsman, 341. 6s. ; and for - each of the Infantry, 311. He would ask, then, in what situa tion were we now placed ? The Right Hon. Secretary had stated that our military establishments were not now greater than in 1792. He held in his hand a paper dated March 27, which hail been laid before the Finance Com mittee, and it gave an account of the number of i fficers and men employed in 1792, 1822, and 1828. The num ber of privates belonging to the Horse Guards, kept up in 1792, was 678 ; in 1822 and 1828 it was 1144, and this year it was the same. The number of privates of the Life Guards in 1792 was 3,200 ;- in 1822 and 1528 it was 5,204, arid this year it was the same. The num ber of the Cavalry of the Household in 1792 was 4,296; in 1822 and 1828 it was 6,018, and this year the same. Here, then, there was an increase in the Cavalry of nearly one- third since 1792, and in the Horse Guards of nearly two-thirds. The whole number of troops kept up in 1792 was 46,000; at present it was double that amount. In 1822 the expence for keeping the military force of Great Britain and Ireland, together with the colonies, was 2,532,0001. ; in 1823 it was 2,561,0001. ; in 1824 it was 2,734100/. ; and in 1825 it had increased to 3,062,0001. We had now conic down to 3,000,0001., yet we were still not within 500,0001. of the sum voted in 1822 ; so that as compared with that year there was an increase and not a re duction of expenditure. Before the House came to any vote upon these resolutimis, Hon. Members ought to look to what was the pay of the Army in 1806. If at that time, when prices were high, the Army was paid at a high rate, ought not the depreciated state of things at present be taken into consideration, and reduction made accordingly. From 1797 to ISOG the pay of the private soldier of the infantry was Bd. a-day. In .1806 it was increased to Is., and a penny was added for beer money, making the whole 13d. per day. The reasons for raising the pay at that time could sot be said to exist at present ; and consequently a diminution ought to take place. There were no less than nine rates of pay for the soldiers serving in different regiments, and the rule being so irregular, no inconvenience could result by departing front it, nor in deed did the late Noble Secretary at War (Lord Palmer ston) thick that any would result, for he admitted that a reduction of pay might commence from the period of en listmeut. It would then be no hardship upon any of the able-bodied young men who applied fur parochial relief, if the parish officers said to them, " no, 'we cannot maintain you—there is the King's Service open to yor e go and avail yourselves of it." The House might, perhaps, think tles.t the reduction of 21, which he should propose from the daily pay of each private soldier, would amount only to a trifling sum. It appeared, however, according to Lord Palmerston's statement, that this reduction, small as it was, would effect upon the whole Army a saving to the country of 240,0001. —namely, by reducing the pay from thirteenpence to clevenpenee a-day. Then the question was how long before this reduction would produce any sensible effect? It appeared from the calculations made by the same Noble Lord, that there were in the Army 12,000 casualties every year; and upon these as of 40,0001. might be effected for tles first year, and 80,0001. fur the second ; so that in six years the whole number of men might be removed from the service, and others substituted at a reduced rate of pay. If that system had been adopted since 1928, when it was first pro posed, the consequence would be a saving of 150,0001. by the present tune.. The only question now was, whether the reduction ought not to be made if nothing else were to be done, and if the present number of troops were still to be kept up. The pay of the officers bad been increased in proportion. A Lieutenant-Colonel's pay was increased and was N‘aiig,t,vrarineloserourtttntttelpideesr,.nvroietnerwi proper —was nyindr,of (ariantpc,t)rse:.iteni:l°,‘,.eatf:feilteplei tiaante‘yitr 2s. 641.; a5l ijor's 2s. ; a Captain's 25., and so on. This might country slightest was done in consequence of the rise of provieions, at a time very different from the present. But ought the sys tem to be still continued ? We now found, that for every vacancy for a commission there were at least 100 candi dates. House, to institute an inquiry, with a view to reduce it ? A reduction ought to take place both in the pay and half pay. He never could sanction such a shameful proceeding as took place two years ago, when the old officers were in some measure compelled to sell their commissions to young men, in order that these young men might be pensioned on the public purse for a long period.—(Hcer, hear.)—He had seen some c ilculations, in which it was attempted to he proved that young men of twenty are no more healthy than old men of sixty. This was most absurd, and the reasoning by which such a proposition was supported appeared to him the most fal:tteious imaginabk. These were circumstances which imperatively called upon the e asi l, ::l l.e re n tr o d t er th ei e l House to do its duty, and put an end to profuse anl unne cessary expenditure. No Officer, no mater what his rank, oughtTiThe ar t 4 r u l t i l a ,e v i e it, a i l i r o l ‘ g v l e re v r err, rate on obtained, unless strong inducements were held t ut. This Army and Navy wanted men:tfhbpenatyotitlhilea'artupsletihreile::::::o"l:::vtirtihhnelaioBtitotthibe6me. induce:l,l:r; the e ce c s a s v a a r l y ry I . la d livery i s ) le a e te ce il a i , a e c l , ay,l l , l ) e , re b g a i d . stated that the pay of every private soldier of y had Guards cne The Life Guirdpanan hAnearly twice the l tiit t ri e u,,, e ant n i tile ! n a si d d a . y :e a r i yifk.erku e,%01,3ft up, time pay of the infantry soldier. This Most explosive and useless branch of the serike t ouiht at mate to be reduced. Ile contended that theNitlie Guards were utterly useless as eotisiared with `other corps---tir they were never employcti as itief upon foreign stisions. One would think tlat 400 men would be quite enough for all the pomp and pa ,ritile of royalty, instead of there . beiug 1,100, with one crst per for every seven men. The proportion of tat; rs to the men was beyond all rule or order. This be looked. upon as a most wanton expenditure, and the Hou.e ought immediately to put an end to it. Perhaps they were not aware that all the accounts of the Life Guards, Wth horse and foot, were never audited. The House knew nothing. of the distribution of the money, or how the es:tablislonent was kept up. A paper bad been put into his hands to-day by an officer, who had once belonged to the Life Guard., and who had asked him a question upon the suhject to which it referred. lie (Alr. li.) now wialled to put a ques tion on the same subject to the Right fun. Gent. oppo site. He viewed to know if the statement he had he•srd rom that Officer was correet—that in the Oxf Hums there was a Quarter-Master for every troop? He under.. . . stood the fact to he so--and if it were, he knew net in Nehat terms to characterise such gross( profusion. ile heil been told, likewise, that some of these Quarter-M titers were suffered to retire, in the prime of life, upon their feli pay of Bs. 6d. a day. He would ask the House if 7,000 men were to be reduced, why was it necessary to maintain so large and extensive a recruiting ostehlislenent se that which was now kept up—an establishment which cost the country 46.000/. ?—(llear, hear.)—The Hoe. Member then particularized several items in the recruiting establish ments, both in Great Britain and Ireland, and contended that they were rather suited to a country either engatred in war or preparing fur it, than to a country in a stete Of peace. While the expense of this department was now 46,000/., it (lid not amount to more than 5,05/0/. in 1792. Right Hon. Gentlemen on the other tide might not think his observations well timed, hat he could nut help that. Neither could Le give them credit for a wish to effect reduction, and spare the public looney, when he saw them so tenacious of keeping up establishments which the state of the country was not able to bear. He thought likewise that the troops were removed front one place to another much too frequently, and a very large portion of the expense attending such change. might be saved. Another useless item of expense, was the suns of 6,0001, s-year, to keep np a table for the officers ex punt at St. James's. He must also object to a vote of 8,500/. com pensation-money to officers of the Guards, au account of the system being altered which allowed them to receive a certain portion of the pay of every private soldier who was permitted to work out of quarters. This rote ought tor the future to be discoetiumed. TLe Com mons of England ought not to vote so large a sum is the fifteenth year of peace, for this part of the military service. They ought to carry into effect reductions to a very large extent, and, by stopping the supplies, to compel Lis Ma jesty's Ministers to comply with the wishes and went) of the people. But all that Le should now ask was, that the vote for the pay of the troops should be reduced to .vhat it was in 1822 and 1823. The House, he hoped, would see tke propriety of bringing bask the Dein - site to that amount if they did not choose to go the whole way. and to reduce it to its scale in 1792. The average amount 1 in 1822 and 1823 was 2,550,000/., while the vote now proposed was 3,015,000/. This was the charge calculated for 81,000 men. The House had not yet approved of this vote, and they were still at liberty to demand its re duction to the amount to which he Lad proposed, or ins medietely to stop theseppliee. He should, therefore, take the liberty of moving that 2,550,000/. should be the suet voted, being the average amount of the votes of 1822 and 1823, although it was still nearly a minims snore than he would be disposed to grant, if it were possible at once to come down to a level with the wants and wishes of the people. However, in two or three years, he hoped that st comprehensive and effectual reduction might be made without pressing upon any particular class. The question upon Mr. Hume's amendment was then put by the Chairman of the Committee. Mr. PEEL rose and said, I have no doulit that my Right Hon. Friend on my left (the Seeretary-at-War) will he able to give to the House a satisfactory explauetion of the various mattere of detail adverted to in the concluding part of the Hon. Gentleman's address to the Conenittee. But, Sir, there are some observatiena in the preceding part of that Hon. Gentleman's speech of easels a character and studs a tenour as I have never before heard in this rode - pendent assembly of the Representatives of the people—. (Hear, hear)—and against which I feel it my duty to eater my decided and earnest protest—(Cheers.)--.Sir, 1 cannot help thinking that the Hon. Gentleman has ap pearotl to-night in the charactor of a disappointed prophet, and has been attempting to make some compeusaton for that inconsiderate declaratien of his on a preceding night, that he expected no reduction at the loads 4 his M 4. jesty's Ministers. He now finds that reductions have boon effected, and reductions so large that we hare almost spoilt Isis own trade—(Cheers)—that retrenchment has been studied to an extent and with a sweeees far beyond what he could have anticipated ; and he Ends it necessary to snake some compensation for at declaration conveyed in language which I am confident the Hon. Gent. would himself, lit his cool moments, reprobate. Sir, say right Hon. Friend . . lies stated to the Committee, that the present estimate:are lower than those of any year since 1804; or, according to the more correct statement of my Right Iron. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer—comparing the whole of the army votes, embracing the extraordinaries, the militia, old the yeomanry—they are lower than any year since 179 k The Hon. Gentlesuzu speaks of the year 1822, and he bays, " Why do you not reduce the Estimates to the scale of that year ?" Why, Sir, is the Honourable Gentleman aware that the present votes are lower by 150,0001. than those of that very year to wYcit he ap peals as the one that ought to be the standard of our ex penditure ? The whole amount of money for the pay ment of the service for this year is 150,0001. less thin that of 1822. Mr. HUME wat understood to dissent from this state ment. Mr. PEEL.—The Hon. Genecinan admits that hs was absent at the commencement of this discussion. Let me ask, Sir, why was the lion. Gent. absent?—(Cheers. )--. fie thought, it seems, that another motion would have preceded this part of the basilica, and that it would have occupied the House for a longer time. In that motion was a resolution condemning his Ma j esty's G,vernment for want of economy in conducting the public service. If we were guilty of that want of ecnnomy—if we deserved that condemnation, why was the Hon. Gradation absent ? (Cheers.)—Or is an Hon. Member to come in at the fag end of a debate, and vote for condemnation, without having heard the debate, or being acepriinted with our defence?— (Cheers. )—Ant the Hon. Gentleman does not stop here. Ile makes an attack upon the majority by whom his Majesty's Government was supported the other night, and imputes to the Gentlemen composing that majority corrupt personal motives. Sir, on that occasion, many Hon. Gentlemen who are adverse to the general policy of the Government were found amongst the majority. will venture to say that the hat of those who, on Friday night, voted in favour of the present alllilgnt of the Army Estimates, including those who azdinarily support, es well as those who oppose the views of hia Majesty's Go vernment, was couiperkil of men of as independent, •as honourable, and as free from the imputation of cor rupt motives, as the Honourable Gendosuan himself— (Cheers) —and it is too utueli to bear a Member of this House not only undertaking to censure the conduct of those who happened to he opposed to him, but also undertaking to olsargo men as koneurable, as independent, and as patriotic, as himself, with corrupt views, and with a desire to promote their own personal interest, because there happened to he a difference between him and them as to the amount of the army Estimates. Th o Hon. Gentleman's proposition is to rednee the army isN' 5,000 men. Ido not think tits lion. Gentleman is him self very likely ta make concessions. When he makes a :notion, it is not with a view to gain a few vntes, but be cause he thinks it right and proper, and because some Gentlemen have differed with h' z ia, whether 81,000 or 76,000 men shall be kept for the service of the country, he thinks himself jostiiied iu imputing to them corrupt motives, and a desire not only to Maintain the present Go vernment in power, but the corrupt and base view of pro tecting themselves and their relative s in t h e public pay, lie charges their not with those con siderations of party and policy which ordinarily ibilaence disputes in this House,, hut with the disgraceful motive of extending their owe person;;! advantage and interest. So much for what the Sir, of the country, under cir- Hon. Gentleman has said with regard to the Government the lion, Gentleman has made never beard anappeal of the physical hich in my opinion reflects the utmost ca n : : , I mp ii len s aactli H eer ; u atu s il e inlde . d discredit upon the man who can play upon sloth instill ments—(Loud cheers)—and wht while in aecurit'y him self, can excite those whom he calls a distressed and • starving population to acts of force and violence, and Rai*, " I who instigate you to rebellion" (for it is nothinglesi),,' ‘• I ant not only s.fe myself from the penalties of high treas , m. hut I will take care to make this appal in a pace in n Lich even his Majesty's AttorneysGencral cannot Isy hold of wh it I say."- . --(Cheers.) The Hon. Baronet for 'Westminster cattle fairly tut ward tile other night, and, gave u-tice of his intention to publisk that which othel,k might Lelieve to he a 144. the Hun. Cent!eswan er.,tects himself ex 4 tess4 and ,svnx,e,lly by 14. 90 U 0 20 U 0 ie. xi. il. it. 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