The Sun. — London, England, 1830-06-22 00:00:00

before he proceeded further into this debate, was anxious to know what course his Right Hon. Friend, the Member for Inverness, meant to take on the present occasion. Did he mean to adhere to his old resolutions or intend to propose others? Mr. C. GRANT retained the same opinion which he had expressed two years ago nn the sub ject of these duties. But he felt considerable re.• ltretance at this period of the Session to take any step calculated in the least degree to mar any plan of relief, however insufficient in his opinion, of com mercial interests which were in so struggling a posi tion. He thought, however, that he ‘;'its bound to go on with his last resolutionshe meant those which he had submitted last year, to reduce the du ties on \Vest India sugars generally to 20s. per cwt. and on East India sugars to 255., permitting all re fined sugars bond to pass without afly duty what ever. After the able speech o? his Right Hon. Ffiend 'the Member for Liverpool, he should not eittit'r at any length into the data upon which his re solutions were founded, further than to express his concurrence in the objections made to OR: Chancel lor of the Exchequer's plan, white Was, he thought, partial in its principle, and i'dtirracticable in its de tails. Mr. HUSKISS(i'4 then proposed his amend ment, which w'ee, that on " all brown, muscovado, and plain sonars, being the produce of, or imported from, the, British colonies of America, or the Mau ritir" , a duty of 20s. per cwt, should be l a id." e'he CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ;.as obliged to his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Grant) for gratifying his curiosity as to his intentions, after the admonition, if not angry remonstrance, he had received from his Right Hon. Friend the Member fir Liverpool. He denied that he was justly charge able with any vacillation in the course he had pur sued respecting the sugar duties, or that he deserved ensure and reprobation of his Right Hon. Friend. At all events, if his eterree had been vacil- Wing, so was that 'd his Right Hon. Friend the l‘lember for Inverness. The first objection made by his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Huskisson) to the resolutions Which he had felt it his duty to subtnit, was, that they went to confer benefit on the newly acquired British colonies, with of equally extending it to the more ancient colonial possessions of the "Crown. Now he Could fearlessly reply, that in making up hie mind upon the scale of these sugar dirties, he 'never thought of making any dis• tinction between the old and the new colonies. The beet objection made by his Right Hon. Friend eres, that it would be found impracticable to apply a scale of duties on each class of sugar ad valorem, so as to give the promised effeet to these resolutions. He saw nothing in the nature of the commodity which could sesta:in the objection, and he therefore thought it groundless. His Right Hon. Friend's pro positien he thought still more difficult, for it required the: eetlue to be ascerta'ned of each particular hogshead tsteugar in the market, while his (the Chancellor ofthe Beeheepieers) only affixed a certain range of prices within which the new duties were to ceeillate. There could, in his opinion, be ►'ecr difficulty in re gulnting the price of each class in such a manner as to show the holder, the officer, and the purchaser, the exact rate of duty payable on the article, and the paitcular manner in which it ought to be assessed. He admitted the possibility, at first of the collusions and frauds—such was, in fact, the necessary concomi tant of ad valorem duties. Parties would, no doubt, be found anxious to rate the article lower than its actual value, to escape the amount of duty, but it was found possible to defeat such plans in assessing other commodities, and to compel payment at the proper value, and he had yet to learn why this was not practicable in the price of sugars.— The Third objection of his Right lion. Friend was respecting the drawback, which, he said, he was satisfied would give greater advantage to the large exporters of West Jude' sugar than they were en titled to, for the rate of duty they had paid. Now, if this were a general remission of 7s. of duty, he could easily believe there was force in the objection, turd that the drawback spoken of would be unequal in its operation; but when the scale was regulated and graduated as he had framed it, lie thought it inikossible the exporter of refined sugars would, by ititi - :new plan, receive a greater drawback than he was entitled to. But if he did not mistake, he had the authority of his Right Hon. Friend for thinking that an increase nf drawback was not in effect so prejudicial as be now asserted. There was a ptriod when these very sugar duties were before the Eight Hon. Member for Liverpool, and when he had evinced a disposition to raiee the amount of drambeck. There was also another objection urged areinst the new resolutions ; it was this, that here tofore sugars were sold in the market at the long /eke (including the duty), and hencefm th the sale trust be at the short price, were the resolutions /lifted by Parliament. He could not really see airy weight in this distinction ; to the public it inuet surely Le indifferent whether the sale was ac cording to the short or long price, for as the duty must be paid before the article could reach the con - termer, the price to him must be in either case the same. The planter, indeed, bad an interest, some what distinct from that of the merchant, and rather in favour of sales at the short price; for he had first to pay the commission to the merchant, and then the Outy, and to risk the market price, duty and all, if the customer failed in his paymente. The planter would be therefore better off with the short price, for then he would incur no risk as to the amount of the duty. He should at present only say a few words upon the resolutions suggested by his Right lion. Friends. To the principle of their propositions (that it would be desirable to have a great reduction f f the sugar duties) he entirely submitted, and he should be most happy to carry it into effect, whenever the country could afford a greater remission of impost s. He had already effected reductions to the amount (if 3,300,0001., but he could scot venture upon a further diminution of 1,000,0001., however anxious he was to render the burdens of the country as light as possible. The effect of his alteration of the sugar duties would relieve the commodity of 200,000/. of duty. Upon the subject of the con sumption of sugar, he knew there were some who thought that by a reduction of price a much larger consumption would be induced among the lower classes of the community. There were also others who entertained a different opinion, and believed that these classes could not be made, to any ma terial extent, greater consumers than they were et present. The experiment would be tried. by the plan which he had followed of lowering the price upon the coarser article, which was consumed by the bulk of the people. There were other topics in the speech of his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Hus kisson) which had more of personal reference to himself than to the regular question before the Com mittee. He had been accused of vacillation, arid of throwing commercial relations into confusion and uncertainty. He was not conscious of being justly chargeable with this fault : lie readily admitted that he had modified his first proposition ; he had, upon further consideration, deemed it right to alter his plan. If this was a fault, he had certainly com mitted it; but lie thought he could describe a much greater fault,—namely, the pressing forward, for the sake of political consistency, any class of measures which subsequent consideration and re flection ought to induce a mart to suppose were not likely to be so productive as he had at first thought them likely to be. If the sugar trade had for the moment become embarrassed, while a new regulation of duties were impending, this was an accident for N% hich he ought riot to be held respon sible,—it was the usual attendant upon any con templated alteration of duties in any other article of general consumption. This had constantly oc curred, and must continue to occur in all matters of this nature, and had no right to be brought forward as a personal accusation against him. Was not the same fluctuation felt pending the discussions upon the beer duties? on the leather duties ? and the same of course happened respecting sugars. The instant, however, that the House decided upon the proposition now before them, all this uneasi ness would at once subside, and these resolutions would be tried by the test of their operation. lie ' anticipated from them many beneficial results, and not the least of these was, that their operation would furnish a guide for their future progress, in, if possible, increasing the degree of relit whith ail must be anxious to give the public, Mr. K. DOUGLAS rireti his intention of supporting th innendment. In his opirCian general permanent measures would be better than that pro=. posed by the Chaneellor of the lachequer. Mr. P. THOMPSON said that all practical men with whom he had an opportunity of conversing on the subject concurred in thinking that t!;`' plan of the Right Hon. Gentleman wuld be found impracti cable in operations. According to the proposed ar rangemrpr, Ih - e seller of sugar in this country, hay ing his returns made in conformity with the law of the land, would find it indifferent whether he sold at the rate of 545. or 475. per cwt. It would rkevvise have the effect of introducing but one pritt 61 . ?Ai& into the marker, and wtuld tad to place sugars to an immense ekteht in the possession of Government.-- It had been stated that it would give great relief to the West India Islands ; but he hid strong doubts upon the subject, and would therefore caution the proprietors to consider well before they gave in their adhesion to a system which was so very preca rious as to its results. It might indeed be a benefit to the new colonies ; he acknowledged, but how was it expected to benefit the old ? Could the proprietors of the liner sugars calculate on getting the same demand or the same prices when the Chan cellor of the Exchequer had freely admitted that his measure was likely to create a general reduction in price. The Mauritius sugars were included, and would all come in henceforward at 20s. duty, yet, during the last year, 18,000 tons of these sugars had been imported, amounting to about one-fifth or one ' sixth of the whola consumption of the country. He would recommend the East India interest to the consideration of Government, and wished to know why they were excluded from the proposed measure of relief, How was it that they were not intended to participate itr the assured benefit arising from this relaxation ? He was the more surprised at the statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman on Monday, when he remembered the pledge given by Ministers on the 25th or 29th of May last year, with reference to the sugar interests generally, the East Indian in clusive. When the East Indian Deputation had waited on Mr. Vesey Fitzgerald, then President of the Board of Trade, they were assured that the in terests of all who were connected with the sugar trade should receive a full and fair discussion with a view to some final satisfactory arrangement at an early stage of the present Session.—(Hear, The plan of his Right Hon. Friend was in this re spect superior to that propounded by Government, inasmuch as it embraced the interests of the East Indian proprietors also. The proposal of Govern ment was alike unjust to the East Indian interest, partial to the West Indian, and injurious to the com munity; he should vote with his Right Hon. Friend. Mr. DICKINSON adverted to the great distress under which a portion of the West Indian planters were suffering, and stated that the velue of property in the sugar estates had greatly deteriorated, con cluding with a promise that he would support the change of duties contemplated by Government. Mr. STUART should support the amendment, as the interest of those who were concerned in the East India sugar trade had been very unfairly over looked in the measure brought forward by the Chan cellor of the Exchequer. Mr. MANNING thought that this was altogether a most unwise measure on the part of Government. Inn giving relief to the low sugars, they gave relief to the Mauritius sugars, from which they received no rum. The fact was, that they taxed the old to give relief to tine young British colonies. He was for continuing the old system, and he should cer tainly en this occasion, support the amendment. Mr. COURTENAY said, that it had been stated by the Hon. Member for Dover that his Right Hon. Friend, the late President of the Board - of Trade, whose absence he regret ted on this occasion, had given last year a specific pledge on this subject. He was sure that his Right Hon. Friend did not go farther than to state, that in applying the principle of ge neral reduction to the various taxes which were raised, that principle would be applied to the duties upon sugar as well as to the duties upon other articles; and that a nearer approximation would be hereafter made between the duties upon East and West India sugars. He was sure that his Right Hon. Friend did not go further than that, and that pledge he was confident his successor in office was willing arid anxious to fulfil. He objected to the amendment proposed by the Right Hon. Member for Liverpool, as by a sweeping reduction of the duties on - sugars it would place in jeopardy a con siderable portion of the revenue. From the Edinburgh Review downwards, those who had advocated a reduction of the duties on sugars calculated upon au increased consumption, not amongst the higher, but the lower orders of society. Now this measure went to afford the greatest reduction in the instance of the lower sugars, and he therefore was justified in taking for granted that the increased consumption of that class of sugars would be sufficient in a great degree to meet the deficiency which the reduction might otherwise pro duce in the revenue. There was a measure to follow this with respect to refiners, which would render the present measure still more b neficial and accep table. The measure with regard to refiners would be perfected by doing away with the evils of w!lieh they complained, with respect to exportation. This measure did not propose the ad valorem duty; and he for one should object to a duty of that kind. He conceived that this was the best measure which, under all the circumstances of the case, they could adopt. With regard to the drawback, he would admit that there would be a bonus of Is. Bd. ope rating in that way after this measure passed; but that would be for the general advantage of the West India colonies. Mr. P. THOMSON explained. He read a me morandum of the interview last year between a de putation from the East India merchants and the then President of the Board, Mr. V. Fitzgerald, from which it appeared that the Right Hon. Gen tleman then promised that in the next Session of Parliament the question of a general reduction both in the duties on West India a►►d East India sugars would be taken into consideration, and that the in terests of the East Indies would not be then over looked. It was rather hard that under such circum stances, instead of their interests having been con sulted, the East India interests should find their produce burdened with a discriminating duty of 75., and they had a right to complain that faith had not been kept with them. Mr. BRIGHT was opposed to the proposition of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. If this measure passed, the colonies would find it their interest to grow and export the low, instead of the high class of sugars. The pro posed duties could only be collected by the inter ference of the custom-house officer in the transac tions between man and man, and such a system he considered most objectionable. The West India interests had every reason to complain of the pro posed additional duty on rum, which would tend still more to prevent the consumption of that article. He should certainly support the amendment. Mr. HUME observed that the Government had failed to redeem the pledge which it had given to bring the subject fairly and fully before the House this year with regard to East and West India sugars. They had last year promised a full consideration of the subject this Session. All parties were entitled to equal advantages, and they should be extended to them. The Right Hon. Gentleman avowed that he proposed to give advantage to a particular party ; hut he (Mr. Hume) held such a measure to be unjust and partial, and one which ought not to meet with the support of that House. What would be the effect of this measure with respect to East India sugars ? The duty on them at present was 375. Now under the proposed measure of the Right Hon. Gentleman, when the duty on West India sugar would be reduced to 245., the duty on East India sugars would be 45 per cent, greater thin it ; when reduced to 225., the duty on ga)t India sugaro would be 54 per cent.; when reduced to 215., the difference would be 64 per cent.; and when reduced to 205.-, which was the place that the Right Hon. Gentleman stopped in his scale; the difference be tween the duties on West and East Indian sugar, , would be 85 per cent. This Was a violation of the pledge 0' , 3:1 by (lovernment on this subject. He wished to see the ditties upon West and East Indian sugar placed upon the same footing. He should vote for the amendmetit; Mr. BERTsitS, after describing the nature of the two propositions before the House—that the one, the amendment, proposed a sweeping reduc tion, which might cause a serious defic'ency in the revenue ; while the other, that of his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, was a cautious measure of reductions inssolving no such risk td the CSVentie, and afi - iirding relief to those who were most distressed and who most required proceeded to observe, that as his Right Hon. Friend, the Member for Inverness, had not persevered in his resolutions, he had a right to expect that his Right Hon. Friend would vindicate his Right Hon. Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) for having in this instance made a selection between an ad valorem and a fixed duty. It appeared to him that this was not strictly an ad Valorem duty, but a duty gra duated upon a scale descending from the average price of sugars in the market. It had been stated, and his Right Honourable Friend had laid too much stress upon the statement, that this WDS not a case between the holders of superior and the holders of inferior sugars, but between the sugars of the old and of the new colonies. Now, he contended, that in that House no such distinc tion as his Right Hon. Friend had set up ought to be drawn between the old and the new colonies Of the country. Both were entitled to the care, at tention, protection, and relief of the Government alike in all respects,—any thing else would be par tial injustice to one or other of the two parties. Be sides, it was not true that the old islands were di vided into classes producing old and new sugar. in Jamaica, for instance, sugars of various descripton, old as well as new, were grown. What, then, could be more important than the interests of Jamaica ? Cast that island from your paternal regard, and what injustice would you not do ? It had been insinuated, and his Right lion. Friend had said so plainly, that these resolutions were intended to give advantages to the coarser sugars. His Right Hon. Friend had computed in what manner sugar of different prices, from 545. to 475. a cwt., would be affected by the alterations now proposed, and had shown that sugar at 475. would receive on the decreasing ad valorem duty now proposed greater favour than it did at pre sent. There could be no doubt about it, and such was the avowed intention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. His Wght I-lon. Friend intended by his proposition to afford favour to those sugars which at present found a difficulty in obtaining con sumers. The first objection which he had heard urged against the proposed alterations was the dif ficulty of carrying them into execution. He denied tlr there was any practical difficulty—much less any impossibility—of the nature which some Hon. Members supposed. Quire the reverse. Another objection was, that there would be a return, in case of exportation, of a drawback exceeding the amount of the duty. He was sure that his Right Hon. Friend had not used his general accuracy in reckoning this at Bs. or 9s. a cwt. It must go upon the assumption that there was now a bounty on the drawback. The Hon. Member for Dover had re tracted his first opinion upon this point : indeed he could not refuse to do so ; for being a practical man, he must know that sugars were selling abroad and here at the, same price; and if that were so, all the notion of a bounty on the drawback was at an end. The Hon. Civilian opposite looked doubt ful as to that position ; but he was sure that if he consulted his lion. Friend the Member for Dover, who sat near him, the Hon, Civilian would find that he (Mr. Herries) was right. He thought that his Right Hon. Friend had remarked with too much severity on the plan which he said would give the finer an advantage of Bs. or 9s. per cwt., but which he (Mr. Herries) contended would not give him an advantage of Is. 6d. Now even when his Right Hon. Friend had a situation in the Government, pro posals were made to the West India interest of the following description. He must beg the attention of his Right Hon. Friend, for there was a Bill brought in tinder his direction, in which this very proposal was made, that there should be three rates of duty on the different sugars—namely, 28s. for sugar the produce of the West Indies, 31s. for sugar the produce of the East Indies, and 325. for foreign plantation sugar, with this additional pro viso, that all sugars exported should receive a bounty of 325., although the duty on the sugars was lower than that sum. Hence it appeared that there was nothing so monstrous in the plan of a bounty on the export. After defending his Right I - lon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer from the charge of vacillation and unsteadiness which had been brought against him, the Right Honourable Gentleman proceeded to notice the charge which the Hon. Member for Dover had brought against him, of suspending the operations of trade by the changes which he meditated upon this subject. The charge came with a peculiar grace from dgentleman who had proposed to the House to change the scale of duties notin one particular branch of trade, but in every branch of trade, to which the taxation of the country ap. plied. His Right Hon. Friend had riot quite ex plained to the Committee the extent of his resolu tions. His Right Hon. Friend had formerly moved a resolution, and that resolution had been referred to as that which his Right Hon. Friend had moved that night—of which one part was, that the dui, on foreign plantation sugar should be 285.; on West India sugar should be 205.; and on East India sugar should be 255. per cwt. He presumed that the reduction of duty on foreign plantation sugar also formed at present part of his resolutions. He knew that it was not at present in the resolution which he had submitted to the House; but he sup posed that it would form part of those to be still submitted to it. His Right Hon. Friend had also alluded to the refilling sugar in bond; it was un questionably an abuse— Mr. C. GRANT here interrupted Mr. Herries to inform the House that his first resolution was to reduce the duty upon sugar, the produce of the West Indies and the Mauritius, from 275. to 20s. a cwt., and upon sugar the produce of the Ernst Indies from 375. to 253. per cwt. The other measure was to enable the holders of sugar to refine it in bond without drawback or bounty. Mr. HERRIES held that it was essential for his Right Hon. Friend to declare what he intended the duty to be on foreign plantation sugar. Mr. C. GRANT observed that he said nothing of plantation sugar; his resolutions applied only to sugars the produce of the West and East Indies respectively. Mr. HERRIES was glad to hear that, as it re lieved him from the necessity of making any obser vations upon the reduction which his Right Hon. Friend had formerly proposed to make in regard to the duties on plantation sugar. He must repeat the statement made by the Chancellor of the Ex chequer, that the utmost gain to the revenue which could be derived from the new duty on spirits would be not more than 200,0001. According to any esti mate which could be framed of the probable loss arising from the proposed reductions, supposing it to be whole loss, it could not be less than 400,000/. He (Mr. Greet) would therefore incur a total loss of 200,0004, in hopes of having it compensated by an increase in the consumption of sugar. Mr. BARING declared iris intention of voting both against the resolutions of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and of his Rig:it Hon. Friend Mr. Grant. He voted against the first, because he thought that they contained a plan which it would be difficult to carry into execution ; and against the last because they would expose the revenue of the country to too great a risk. Sir R. PEEL said that he wished to say a few words on the last point to which the Hon. Member for Callington had adverted, and which he consi dered to I n by far the most important consideration which had yet been introduced into the debate. Thzt point was simply this—was it the duty. of the House, in the present state of the finances Of the country, and after the remission of taxation that bad already been made iii this session, to run the risk of impairing the revenue further, by making the reduc tion on those duties which his Right Hon. Friend proposed ? The taxes already remitted, by the abolition of thb duties on beer and leather, amounted to 3,300,000/. His Right Hon. Friend (the Chan cellor of the Exchequer) had told the House that he expected that loss of revenue to be compensated by the new duties on spirits, to the amount of 400,0001. and on stamps to the amount of 200,000/., leaving a total loss of revenue amounting to 2,700,000/ His Right Hon. Friend behind him now proposed another remission of takes to the amount of 1,200,0004, looking only to the compensation to be derived from the additional duty on spirits, which was calculated to produce 200,0001.; thus proposing, in reality, another reduction' of taxes to no less an amount than 1,000,000/. His Right Hon. Friend expressed a hope that the sum so lost to the revenue would be made up by the duties paid on the in creased consumption of sugar which would follow the reductions he proposed to make. It was an experiment frightfully hazardous; for could the House calculate that 500,000/. would be produced to the revenue, when, in order to raise that sum, there must be an increase in the consumption of sugar amounting to a full eighth part of that which was already consumed in the country ? But even if that sum should be produced, there would still he an additional deficit of half a million of revenue to supply : so that upon the whole revenue of the year there must be a deficit of 3,200,00('/. to be made good upon the most favourable calculation. Now, such being the case, would it be wise to make any further reduction ? His Right Honourable Friend had reminded him of the savings which the Govern ment could make owing to the reduction of the Four per Cents. He wondered how his Right Hon. Friend could have referred to that point, because it was sure to excite in his mind a reminiscence of which lie %%as bound to avail himself. How had the Government been able to effect the reduction of the Four per Cen2s. ? By the maintenance of the public credit. It was by the manner in which it had kept up the public funds that Government had been able to avail itself of its credit to reduce the rate of interest, and to diminish the annual taxation of the country in that respect, by no less a sum than 700,000/. It was on this very account that he doubted the policy of incurring the risk of having any deficiency in the revenue. If they ran the risk of having to make up a deficiency by an issue of Exchequer-bills or a loan from the Bank, they must bid adieu to all further hopes of relieving the reve nue of the country by a reduction of the rate of in terest paid for the support of the public credit. He had heard his Right Hon. Friend behind him talk of the vacillation exhibited by his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. That the charge of vacillation should have come from that particular quarter certainly did surprise him. For a week past , public notice had been given by the Right Hon. Member for Inverness that the motion which the House would have to discuss was for a reduction of the duty on sugar, not according to a fixed rate of the article, but according to the quality of the sugar. The proposal now made by his Right Hon. Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) did not differ front the principle advanced in the notice of motion given by the Right Hon. Mem ber fur Inverness, as would appear by a reference to the terms of the notice. The second reso lution which the Right Hon. Gentleman had given notice of his intention to move declared that it was expedient to levy a duty on sugar accord ing to the value of the different qualities of the arti cle, rather than by a fixed rate. Up to half-past five o'clock that evening, he believed that it was the in tention of the Right Hon. Gentleman to propose a reduction of the duty upon that principle. The charge of inconsistency and vacillation, therefore, came with very bad grace from the Right Hon. Gentleman, who had abandoned his original pro posal and substituted a fixed rate of duty in-teal of a duty imposed according to the value of the article. The Right Hon. Gentleman, it should be recollected stood in a different situation from his Right Hon. Friend. The former acted only as an individual Member of Parliament; the latter w►ts Chancellor of the Exchequer. He would remind the House that the Right lion. Gentleman had filled an important situation in the Government of the country, and was well acquainted with all the bearings of the subject. If the Right Hon. Gentleman, with all his expe rience, found it necessary, after a week's considera tion, to propose resolutions not only at variance with those of which he had originally given notice, but directly opposed to thorn, why should he deny to the Chancellor of the Exchequer the privilege of changing his opinion with respect to the practical operation of a measure which he had propounded ? Ha did not mean to say that the Right Hon. Gen tleman had not•a good excuse for changing the na ture of his resolutions. The resolutions proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman to-night did riot agree with those which lie moved last year. He thought that no imputation rested with any man for changing his course of conduct with reference to matters so complicated. In such circumstances individuals must be governed by communications from parties interested in the question. He would riot enter into any details respecting the Bill, but he saw no diffi culty in fixing the duty in the way proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He hoped that the House would by its vote show a determination to maintain the public credit, and to enable the Govern ment to make a further remission of taxation by the reduction of the interest of the debt.—(Hear.) Mr. C. GRANT, however much he respected his Right Hon. Friend who had just sitten down, denied his right to call upon any private Member to adhere to resolutions which he had not proposed to the House. His Right Hon. Friend seemed to think that a Member had no right to change his opinions ; but that the Chancellor of the Exchequer might do so, and refrain to press resolutions of which he had given notice. That was a new doc trine, which was perfectly consistent with the pre sent mode of proceeding in that House. In it was to be found the secret of the changes which had marked the conduct of Government this Session. That doctrine influenced them in the cautious course which they had pursued. His Right Hon. Friend seemed anxious to have the honour of his company in the course which Government was pursuing. He wished him to " Pursue the triumph, and partake the gale," in the undulating course which they were proceed ing in. —(A laugh.)—But be must decline to sail in such company. His object in all that he had done on the subject was to afford relief to the distresses of the sufferers in this country, the West Indies and the East Indies. Mr. PEEL said that his Right icon. Friend had quite mistaken him, if he supposed he cast any imputation on him for his change of opinion. He had merely alluded to the conduct of his Right Hon. Friend, for the purpose of showing that even an individual, the best informed upon the subject, had found reason to change his opinions in a very short time. The only point upon which perhaps he could bring a charge against his Right Hon. Friend was, that he had not given the Chancellor of the Exchequer notice of his intention to bring for ward a new proposition to-night. Mr. C. GRANT had so frequently discussed the subject with the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he thought a notice was unnecessary. Mr. ASTELL made an observation which was inaudible. The Committee then divided, when the num bers appeared— For: the amendment 144 Against it 182 Majority -38 On re-entering the gallery we found Mr. BROUGHAM addressing the Committee. He congratulated the House on the great knowledge and acuteness which had just been displayed by so large a portion of its Members. A large majority had been found to express their opinion on a subject of great peculiarity and emlyirrassment. He had heard the proposition of the Chancellor of the Ex chequer twice stated, but he coal not succeed in understanding it. He had applied to the left and to the right, but he was still utterly unable to compre hend the subject upon which he was called to give a vote.--(A laugh.) There were, however, 182 Members so perspicacious, so nimble of apprehen sion, as to be able to find their way through what to him appeared only an inexplicable difficulty. 'I his circumstance was to him a matter of distant admi ration—of extraordinary and hopeless envy; but to the House it ought to be a matter of unceasing and unbounded congratulation, that they were possessed of 182 men of such sagacity, although there were 144 others who dechired themselves incapable of comprehending a tittle of the subject.—(Laughter.) He thotight that the proposition of the Hon. Mem ber for Inverness was more intelligible than that of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The latter he could not presume to follow even at a distance, and if he were called upon to give a vote, finding that he could not induce the Hon. Member for South wark, the Member for Hertfordshire, the Member for Taunton, and several others, to reflect upon him any portion of the light which shone upon them, or to direct him to a clue to guide him in the maze in which he was involved, he must, however unwil lingly, vote against the resolutions of the Chancel lor of the Exchequer. Mr. 1 - lUSKISSON denied the practicability of carrying the proposed plan into execution. The Chancellor of the Excheqsier contended that it could, because henceforth all sugar would be sold at what were called short prices instead of at long prices. The thing was absolutely impossible. He would tell the committee why. At present there was a fixed duty of 275. which was to be deducted from the long price in order to ascertain how much the sugar sold above or below the average price. The average price was made up each week by de ducting 275. from the long price. To make the matter clear, he would suppose that the average price this week was 255., which had been arrived at by deducting 275. from the long price of sugar sold in the antecedent week. It was impossible that a knowledge of the average value of sugar could be obtained except by deducting 275. from the long price. This was so obvious, that he wondered at the Chancellor of the Exchequer's statement on the subject. He thought lie could show, to the satis faction of every man of business that the Chan cellor of the Exchequer did not understand his own proposition.—(Hear, and a laugh.)—He could put a very possible case to the Right lion. Gentleman, and if his plan were capable of being put into prac tice, he could give him an easy answer. He would suppose the average price this week to be 21s, and that a lot of sugar was sold at 525. When the sale was made the custom-house officer asked the seller what he had sold the sugar for ? Fifty-two shillings was the reply. The custom-house officer deducted 275. from the 525., and found that 255. remained as the average price. The seller told the custom-house officer that he could not ask him to pay a duty of 275., because the resolution of the Chan cellor of the Exchequer declared that that duty was not to be paid unless the sugars were sold at Is. above the average price, whereas, in the present case, tile average price was not exceeded at all. That was a poser to the custom-house officer. He admitted that the statement was correct, and fixed the duty at 25.. 6d., which left the seller it net Profit of 265. Gd. on the transaction, so that in fact he sold the sugar at Is. Gd. above the average. He wished the Chancellor of the Exchequer to state how this difficulty could be avoided. There was not a man in the House, there was not a practical man in the customs, there was not an ingenious man in the Cabinet, who could give him an answer upon this point.--(Hear, and a laugh.)—The Right Hoe. Gentleman called this an ad valorem duty. He denied that it was so. The Right Hon. Gentleman had mistaken his view of the measure. His opinion of it was, that it would not give relief where it was most wanted. It would be beneficial to the Dilauri tius and to Demerara, which were in-a flourishing state, but it would be prejudicial to the old colonies. This was proved by the value of slave labour in the respective places. The value of a slave in Antigua or in Barbadoes was not more than 301., while hi the Mauritius and Demerara it was 80/. to 90/. He would assert, front what he had this day learned from his constituents, that if the measure were suffered to pass, the West. India colonies would be reduced to a state of absolute despair and utter ruin ; and in common justice we ought to take upon ourselves the care of those colonies, and the duty of making a praper provision for their sup port. Much had been said about the intention of Ministers to afford relief from taxation. But it ap peared to him that at the commencement of the Session they had no such intention. The Noble Lord at the head of the administration, had at first declared that he could only reckon on a surplus of 1,500,0001.; but, a few days afterwards, the Right Hen. Gentleman came down and proposed a remis sion of taxes to the amount of 3,300,0001, stating, at the same time, that there would then be a sur plus of 2,000,000/. He now came forward with a reduction of the duty on sugar,—but how was it accompanied? Why, by an addition on corn-made spirits, and also on rum, of Gd. per gallon, Now, the quantity of spirits to which that augmented duty would attach last year, was 31,390,000 gallons, which would give an increase to the revenue of 760,000/. This was a set-off, and a very large one too, against any diminution of the duty on sugars. He contended, that by proceeding as Ministers now proposed to do, they were holding out a prospect of relief to the West India colonies, which was a mere mockery. The agitation of these subjects had thrown the commercial part of the community into a state of great uncertainty and uneasiness. A commercial paper, which he had received from the town which he bad the honour to represent, stated, that " the rum, the brandy, the whisky, and the gin trade are all at a stand ; the manufacturers of tobacco and snuff are all at a stand ; the sugar trade is also at a stand, and there is an end to the production of bastards— (Roars of laughter)-40,000 hogsheads of sugar made from the molasses,—and this was what was termed bastards,'—were formerly exported into this country; but that was no longer the case." In his opinion, considering the state of the country, the present measure ought to be abandoned. If gentlemen would give themselves time to consider the propo sition of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he was sure that the majority of 183 would find that they were practically wrong, and that all the West In dians were likely to get in this year of promise was an additional duty of Gd. a gallon on rum. He certuinly would vote with the Hon. Member for Callington against the resolution, because he thought that it was better to do nothing than to throw every thing_ into a state of confusion and uncer tainty. lie was determined when these resolutions were brought up again to make the proposition which he had already done; and he was quite con vinced that if a Bill were brought in, such opposition would be given to it as would prevent it from being carried for one or two months. Mr. BARING said the best thing that Minis ters could do was, either to abandon the measure altogether, or to reduce the duty indifferently on East and West India sugar ss. per cwt. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could not agree to such an equalization of the duties; and as to the proposition of the Right Hon. Mem ber for Inverness, it was quite clear that it could not be agreed to without endangering a revenue of 1,200,000/. As to the threat held out by the Right Hon. Member for Liverpool of impeding the measure, he knew very well, from the experience of the present Session, how difficult it was to carry a measure through that House. He felt that par ticularly with respect to the Beer Bill; but lie trusted that the House would do justice to itself, and not allow any measure to be retarded unneces sarily. Mr. HUSKISSON rose amidst cries of " Spoke," and denied that be had held out any - _ threat. He had merely stated that he. would take that course whict), as a Member of Parliament using his own unbiased judgment, he had a right to pursue,—a course which he was perfectly justi fied in a'lopting after the division which had titre" place. After a few observations from Mr. BnourinAg , the CHANCELLOR Or the EXCHEQUER, Mr. Ilusos" SON, Lord MILTON, Sir IL PEEL, Mr. BRIGHT, and \lr. K. DOUGLAS, upon the effect of the o r iginal resolution, as compared with the amendment, 6 division took place— For the resolution l6l Against it 144 Majority: ---17 On our return to the gallery we found the Horioe resumed, and conversation in progress between Mr. BROUGHAM, Lord MILTON, and Col. SHlTHoliro in the course of which the latter Hon. Membef manifested a disposition to ab,tain from pressing hi° ,notion for the accommodation of reporters, wh►clt stood for to-morrow, to the obstruction of the rra' journed debate on the Court of Cbaucery, an d of the motion of the Noble Lord relative to the Cof il Laws. However nothing definite was agreed 0 " when The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the Order of the Day for the further C 0 siderat-on of the Report on the SALE OF BEER BILL. Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL objected to proceeding wish the Bill at that late hour of the night (one o'clock)—(Cries of " Go on, nO" No, no.") The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER inoved that the amendments be now read. The gallery was cleared for a divbiion, but none toak place. Sir E. KNATCHBULL rose for the purpose of proposing two clauses to the Bill. His first clause went to prohibit the drinking of beer on the pre Inises where it was sold. Under the present Bill, public-houses in the country licensed to sell beer would deal in smuggled spirits, to the prejudice the revenue. The Bill would tend to increase the expense of parishes. If the Ifouse passed this Bill it would deviate from the principle which had, governed it in regulating public-hous e s. The secooLl clause proposed was for limiting the duration of the Act to three years, which would enable the How e to judge of its expediency, and whether it worked to 3 good purpose.—(The Hon. Baronet was very loy perfectly heard.) On the question that the clauses be brought UP' Sir C. BURRELL spoke in favour of the clause' as we understood, but his observations could not b e collected. Sir J. SEBRIGHT resisted the amendments, 05 contrary to the principle of the Bill. Mr. BRAMSTON felt it his duty to support tb' amendments of the Hon. Member for Kent. The CHANCELLOR cf the EXCHEQUER, observed, that the Hon. Member for Kent propose' to prohibit the consumption of beer on the premise ( of those licensed to sell it. He (the Ch ance llor the Exchequer) had seen nothing to induce him t." ch inge his opinion of the Bill, or to abandon th e object of the Bill—a regard for the interests o f th e , mass of the people. The farm. Baronet had pleaded the cause of the publicans, who were a respectabl e class of persons ; but he (the Chancellor of the chequer) stood forward in behalf of the Government: to protect the interest of all classes. He appeare d on behalf of the labouring population, who were 11(4 to be debarred from th e b ene fi t w hi c h th e H ouse be / intended to conf er u p on t h em by thi s Bill. It be" determined to repeal the duty, and to apply the pill visions of the Bill to the benefit of the community► but if the clause was agreed to, it would repeal the duty, and still leave a restraint on the sale of th e article, which would only benefit the privileged 1 113 ; nufaeturers and venders. Large bodies of th_ i i community were looking anxiously for the reoP of this measure. He had received letters frol n ,,. the counties of Kent an d S us s ex , f rom gentlelt el. , of property, who were chairmen of committe e formed for p romo ti ng t h e p ass i ng o f t h e Bill in ',- present state. If they wer e a ll owe d t i me to Pef t : don the House, they would state their concurrence in it. The Hon. Baronet had argued that the mea', sure would be injurious to th ose em b ar k e d in thot trade; but he (the Chancellor of 'the Exchequef) did not think that the extension of the sale of bee r would be injurious to those established in the trade'' who, if they furnished an equally g o od ar ticle, woul is have an advantage in their very establishment whie i j would give them a superiority. Another argument y' the Hon. Baronet was, that the morality of Ol e country would be affected by his Bill. But 1) 0° would the Hon. Baronet's clauses improve it ? Th e prohibition of the retail brewers allowing their bee to be drunk on their premises, had led to vexatio o piosecutions, and all those evils which result fro the punishment of error instead of crime. Thl, clause would subject the retailer of beer to all rhos' restraints imposed in the Bill, and provided for different state of things. By rejecting this Bill, tb House would disappoint the just expectations of th country, that was looking for the privilege of able to purchase and drink a wholesome beverage' a cheap rate. Mr. BENETT said that the first clause easiiy be evaded by a person building a room 0 0 conveying the beer from an adjoining house, 0 1 , licence was not required. He considered the 1 1 t, as beneficial to the public, and one of the great°, o blessings to th e l ower c l asses , w h o wou ld b e ab to procure beer in the n e i g hb our h oo d o f t h e i r w ork' ' instead of being obliged to go three or four miles f ° ‘ as at present, in consequence of th e unw illinF „ j ness of Magistrates to license houses.---(The DO; Member was obliged to sit do wn i n consequenc e cries of " Question.") Sir E. DEICING was averse to the measure ° 1 : the ground of it s p ern i c i ous e ff ects upon the more , ';' of the peopl e , who would have ten times great er allurements to vice than at present. He did think that the clauses of the Hon. Baronet militate against, the principle of the Bill. Colonel SIBTHORP was decidedly opposed t (/ the Bill in all its forms. Mr. BYNG approved of the principle of the Bil l ' There was nothing more just than that a poor nio . ° , should be able to drink his pot of beer as cheap r a he that could brew a butt. But the allowing e ve ; hou3e in a parish to sell her, was one of the ine ° _,! violent attacks on property he had ever known 5i0 . ,,7 he had had a seat in that House.—(Hearo—ri, should vote for the amendment of the Hon. Memb' for Kent. Sir E. KNATCHBOLL said a few words reply, declaring that he should divide the House. Air. MONCK spoke a few words, which w‘ totally inaudible, in consequence of the loud cries " Question ! question ! withdraw !" The House divided, and the numbers were — For the clauses lOB Aga;nat them l3B - Majority against the clauses —SO The Bill was then ordered to be read a third tic° this day (Tuesday.) On re-entering the gallery we found the oth ir Orders of the Day in the course of being dispos e ,; of, after which the House adjourned at Three o'cloco LIST OF THE MINORITY OF THIRTY, WOO 'VOTED FOR THE AMIINDMENT OF MR. JONIA ~ That the It( port upon the Administration of Justice Bill taken into further consideration this day six months. A ttwood, 111. Jones, J. Sadler, M. ''. Bankes, H. Knatehbull, Sir E. Smith, I'. A. Bentinck, Lord G. Lambert, J. S. Tuite, H. M. Clinton, F. O'Connell, D. Webb, E. Davenport, E Owen, H. Williams, T. P. L ncom bc, Lord Palm er, C . F . Williams, 0. d French, A. Pryse, P r y se 1 W , estenra, Hon. ' Fyler, ..i.'. B. Palmer, R. White, H. Hughes, Colonel Philips, Sir R. B. 'TELLERS. Harvey, 1). NV. Powell, Colonel Wetherell, Sir C. Inglis, Sir R. H. Rogers, E. Owen, Sir J. , Sir THOMAS LETHBRI DGE having Deco.- a resident in another county, he will, it is supposed, vei l his seat for Somersetsbire. Last week, at Chichester, a lady called 01 1 p!timber and glazier, and solicited his vote for Dr. tus°' INGTON. The man refused. " Then," slid the laclY " you shall never again repair any pump." 1. Mr. 2. Mr. 3. Lor 4. Mr. 5. Mr. I. Cot 2. Cor 3. Sui 4. Chu 5. Ma 6. Stal 7. Cot 8. Tit 9. An 10. I,V• 11 Sal( Alt l i.Ust ) 5. Ha En( 1 16. Col 17. Bei 18. As 19. Tr( '12 '2 6 1 Bank 5 per C 8 per C IN Pet Ditt4 1 4 per C Ditto, Bank Ditto 2 Ditto India Ditto 1 TILIC Austri Brazils Buenos Chiliar Coloml Ditto, Dania - Greek Ditto, Guatir Mexic, Ditto, Braaili Brazil! Ditt, Englis' Real d Allian Genes: Arrive or II LOIN T' despat to•mo Gei 2,ihachl c of Su graph TIOI explai vancii Frenc Ori No. 2 j have Is ac whit wert Gre revo easil c►rci dory that muc spir trop Pac adve troo be o actu whit Ma( futu