The Sun. — London, England, 1833-05-11 00:00:00

words on the question of the liability of English ender writers. He could undertake to state that those persons were not liable whether the policies were effected before or after the embargo. In a case which arose out of the Swedish embargo, it was decided that it was impo-sible for an English subject to enter into a contract, which would have the effect of throwing upon a subject of his Majesty the loss which ought to be borne by a foreign subject. In reply to what the Hon. Member who spoke last had said respecting the sympathy which he felt for Holland, he must be allowed to observe, that when Hol land attracted the sympathy of this country in former times her conduct was very different from that which she was at present pursuing. She was then at the head of freedom, exerting herself against tyranny; but now she had placed herself under 'governments which supported legitimacy.—(Cheers frtm the Oppositioe.) He spoke of legitimacy in the sense in which it was used by the Holy Alliance, wtoich desired to put down liberal institu • titans all over the world.—(Hear, hear, from the same quarters.) The King of Holland was exerting himself to bring those whom he called his devoted subjects again under 'his dominion, and under those circumstances he did not merit the sympathy of Englishmen.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. BARING said that the sentiments uttered by the lion. and Learned Gentleman were quite novel, and had, he supposed, been specially reserved for the reformed House of Commons. It was singularly incongruous to hear a law officer of the Crown denounce an attachment to legitimacy, and to hold it up as an excuse for persecution, for so he must designate the treatment which the King of Holland had experienced.—(Hear.) If he might venture to offer advice to one who sold advice to all the world— (A laugh)--he would recommend the Hon. and Learned Gentleman to confine himself in future to questions of law, and not to hazard such extraordinary esAnions on policy and morality. Such doctrine would not have been uttered in that House fifteen years ago, when constitu tional principles were quite as well understood as at the present moment, without being visited with eeverts 'repre hension. He wished to know what great political object was to be obtained by persecuting the poor King of Hol land ? What, he might be permitted to ask, were the duties of a Foreign Secretary ? First, to be the guardian of the honour of the country, and next, without allowing birnael.'s to be entangled with protocols, to protect the com merce of the country. The .Noble Lord (Palmerston) thighs smile at being thus lectured upon the discharge of the functions of his situation, but he (Mr. Baring) would nevertheless venture to repeat that the Noble Lord's two leading duties were the guardianship of the honour and of the commerce of the country. If he looked only to the direct injury our commerce had received, he saw but little of the disadvantage. To show that the pending negotiations were not so harmless, he would read extracts from letters from two of the great shipping ports of America, and, if necessary, be was reedy to produce the originals. The first was from Mobile, and it was dated the 13th February last. It stated that English ships were there fast accumulating, but that they found in creased difficulty in getting cargoes, as American vessels were able to carry cotton to Europe at a freight by 121 per cent. less than could be taken by English vessels ; hence, it was clear that nearly all the trade in cotton was carried on in American bottoms. A second letter from the same port, dated 21st February, mentioned that freights were still heavy at the depreciation before mentioned, and that the people were unwilling to venture their property in British vessels, From New Orleans, under date of the 10th January, much the same statements were made, and at that date all the insurance companies had raised their premium upon properto shippedo;ts--lae 4 s:st- eessolts which put shipment.. kiy ' them out of the question. Thor were actual hommercial letters, proving beyond dispute that di:: unsettled state of affairs in Europe most materKty affected the commercial interests of this corsatry. It appeared further that the difference on Ile rate of insurance upon American and upon Peritish vessels was 1 per cent.-11 per cent. being charged for the former, and 21 for the latter; and that although the owners of British vessels had lowered their freights from 16 to 19 per cent. they could obtain no cargoes. No doubt other branches of commerce were as importantly in jured as the cotton trade. The effect of the pending nego tiations was felt in the Mediterranean, in the Brazils, and in every port of the Pacific Ocean; and it might be said that the deterioration of the British flag extended to nearly all the quarters of the globe. If there were anything to rejoice at in the state of modern Europe and of modern feeling, it was that the Dutch, essentially a commercial people, had made these great sacrifices to principle ; and he, fur one, could not withhold from them his sincere ad miration. Such was the practical injury of which all engaged in commerce had a right to complain ; and al though the Noble Lord had not stated them, there might be some great political views which humble merchants could not understand, and which prevented the arrange ment of existing differences. The Noble Lord had said, that if people would but read all his protocols, they would see how ably he bad conducted this matter. He (Mr. Baring) could not assert that he had read every word, but he had skimmed them, and indeed read as long as he could keep his eyes open, but even the Noble Lord's pen could not enliven so dull a subject.—(Cheers and laughter.) Having done so, he must unfeignedly admit that he was at a loss to know what the Noble Lord was driving at. He could understand, indeed, that Ministers had taken up the cause of their new protege, the King of Belgium, and that they wished everything to submit to him—that he should dictate all treaties of peace, and frame them according to the extent and nature of his wishes ; but if he were called upon to state what Engl nd and Holland were really differing about, he should find himself totally at a loss upon the subject. He wished, therefore, that the Noble Lord had condewended upon mine explanations of the kind. As far as he (Mr. Baring) could make out, the King of Holland complained that the five arbitrators were reduced to two—that the negotiations began under the mediation of Austria, Russia, Prussia, Great Britain, and Frauce, but that the three first Powers had retired from the trust. " When (said the King of Holland) you put yourselves again in the same position to undertake this mediation, I am ready to submit to it ; but the three Powers most friendly to me, and who are at teasked by the King of Great Britain's Solicitor-General for being friendly to me, have seceded."__( Hear.) " Aye (replied the Noble Lord) but France and England are united ; they are powerful and you are weak ; they must command and you must submit." Such was in effect the language of the Noble Lord to Holland; and he knew that that State was only resisting the measures of coercion which France and England would dictate. For his own part he was certainly friendly to an alliance with France ; but bethought that England had permitted France to lead her too much out of her direct course ; and it almost ap peared as 'hough France had adopted the policy of endea vouring to embroil Enland with friendly Powers, in order to give additional weight to her own influence.—(Hear, bear.) The Noble Lord had said that advantage was attempted to be taken of the exemption in favour of vessels carrying perishable commodities. He remem bered perfectly a circumstance of a vessel which was per mitted to land its cargo of iron at Cardiff. Upon ques tions of international law he had frequently had occasion to differ from the Noble Lord ; but to his opinion on legal matters be was disposed to pay great respect. Never theless, he could not help expressing surprise at the doc trines which the Noble Lord had promulgated with regard to insurances. Sir JOHN CAMPBELL rose to explain. He wished to distinguish between that legitimacy which it was pro per to uphold, and that legitimacy which, if scrupulously followed, would have justified James 11. in continuing upon the throne of England, and would call upon us now to regard the Duke of Modena as our Sovereign instead of William IV., to whom they had sworn allegiance. Lord J. RUSSELL, with reference to what bad fallen from his Hon. and Learned Friend his Majesty's Solicitor- General, must concur with him that there was a very strong difference which prevented the comparison be tween William 111. and the present Sovereign of Holland. He agreed that the same principle which would induce persons to support the present King of the Netherlands would have induced them to support James the Second instead of King William the Third. The Hon. Mem ber for Essex had taunted his Majesty's Ministers with the number of their protocols, and he had been rather elaborate and severe upon their protracted negotiations and voluminous correspondence; but when the Hon. Gentleman felt disposed to indulge in such a vein he would do well to consider that the interference of his Majesty's Ministers was not of their own seeking, and that the negotiations had been begun by their predecessors in office. When Lis Noble Friend had taken the Seals he did not desire any such conference, but he found that on e had already been appointed, and . that it was no longer possible to avoid it. The embargo was the natural, and indeed, the unavoidabl e result of such a state of things; and the only question for the House now to determine was, whether it would say that the Crown was unfit to undertake the negotiation, and that, therefore, the House would take the case in its own hands, and under its especial management. The question for Ministers had not been relative to the em. bargo, but how they could preserve peace ; nor had Hon. Gentlemen opposite shown that, in order to preserve that peace, any course could have been pursued better than --- thOVehtt..._/1. - bad been adopted. At one period the Hon. - Me fiir' Essex bad said that his Majesty's Ministers would perform a masterpiece of policy if, under the circum s.. stances of the negotiation, they could preserve p e ace for ; even one twelve months, When the King of the Nether- lands saw such speeches delivered in the House of Com mons, it must have been a great inducement in him to de lay the settlement of affairs, He might have argued that, if he could but delay ?he settlement by cavils and scruples, he mi g ht at length find friends in die Pritish Pathan - lent, who would help Lim to ,e participation of the Belgian territory.(llear, hear.) The letters which the Hon. CRettlerrian opposite had read were very far from Proving that the embargo was the cause of the delay of the settlement. There had been hat minor points of difference at any time betwezn Ministers and the three great Powers of Europe. There Were - stone 'lnlnor points on which the three great Powers VitA - ..1 disposed to say that the King of Holland Was sitreare, and they wished to have further negotiations, ars order to see whether those points could not he Modified or dispensed with. This had been the feeling of the Courts of Austria, Russia, and Prussia, but that feeling was now diminished, and a conviction was gaining ground that it was not these minor points which constituted the difficulty, but that the bottom of all the delay was the King of Holland's objection to sign any treaty by which the sovereignty of Relgium should depart out oh his hands. He had now a confident hope that with the assistance of the other three Powers, such a language would be held to the King of Holland that he would be obliged at last to abandon whay.ever hopes he might now entertain for deferring the settlement of the negotiations. Sir. R. PEEL said that the Noble 'Lord had not made the proper distinction in one part of his speech, for the immediate question was lees on the principle of the em bargo than on whether the embargo itself was calculated to effect the o'sject for which it bad been imposed. He was rely glad, however, to hear the Noble Lord express such confident hopes of peace. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman, the Solititor-General, had stated that in point of fact this *vas hot a question between Belgium and Holland tlaCnt territory, but that Holland had fled for re fuge kn the Courts which were known to be the advocates of legitimacy. The Learned Gentleman, it was true, had afterwards explained what he meant by legitimacy, as if he had been called upon as a writer of a dictionary. Be knew not why the Hon. Gentleman had done this. 1 f the Learned Gentleman's explanation meant anything it was that all popular Governments were opposed to legiti macy. He meant that the three great monarchies of Europe were ranged against England, France, and Belgium. It was not necessuy, however, to mix up this question with the question of foreign policy. He (Sir Robert Peel) would admit that the object of the foreign policy was justifiable, and he would further admit that it was important to the peace of Europe to bring about this settieraent; but if he admitted all this he would still maintain that Ministers were not justified in coercing the trade of British subjects, and in imposing an embargo for that object.—(Hear, hear.) He would maintain that the embargo was an illegal and unconstitutional exercise of power and authority, whilst it was ineffectual for its purpose. He did not think the Noble Lord a fair arbi trator in this case, for he deemed the embargo nothing unless the Crown were authorized to continue indefinitely this restraint upon commerce, and then which he (Sir R. Peel) maintained that there could not be a precedent more dangerous and pernicious. If a vessel with iron on board represented her cargo as perishable, what did that prove but that commerce was placed out of the pale of the law, and was obliged to resort to such practices ? There was no law in the case, and commerce was placed under the discretion of the Crown Officers. Surely this was a power very improperly lodged, and liable to be abused. It was true that he had heard no complaint of abase, but it was a pow,: which it was almost impossible to e...ercise impartially. He for one would object to corn- merce being ever put under such control. He sup posed that no objection would be made from the Trea , sory Benches to furnish the whole of the information required. It was absolutely necessary, under existing circumstances, that the power should be exercised by Par liament. If property on b 00..: of Dutch vessels was re leased on the plea of its being British property, why should not British subjects insure that property ? Was not this a powerful argument against both the justice and policy of the embargo? He denied that the embargo could be justified on the plea of mitigated war. Such a doctrine never had been recognised by the law of nations. But the main question was whether the injury fell on the sub jects of Holland or of England. He could not agree that it fell upon the former; and it had been shown that, since the embargo had been imposed, not a single mercantile or commercial failure bad taken place, whilst the pressure was so great and so severely felt in this country. It was very well for gentlemen opposite to say that this was a party question, and a factious motion ; hut, he would ask, who was it that bad brought it forward ? Was it a gentle man who supported the ballot or not? This question must relieve the Hon. Mover from any suspicion of being actu ated by any party bias. He had stated that be approved of the general policy of his Majesty's Ministers towards Holland, and yet he was an enemy to the embargo. Such was the Hon. Gentleman's opinion who brought forward this question, and yet had he not declared that he had three strong objections to the embargo?— First, that it was illegal ; secondly, it was contrary to the good faith of the country; and, thirdly, it was totally inefficient to its purpose. He reprobated the measure as contrary to good faith, and ineffectual for the object in view. The House did not want long discussions upon politics ; the point was, that the em bargo was doing to the country the reverse of good. He would grant, for the sake of argument, that it was im portant to coerce Holland. He would grant that it was necessary to compel Holland to a peace, but still, he would ask, was the embargo a measure calculated to promote the object in view? He had formerly expressed his opinion that the maintaining of the embargo would defeat the object of peace. He maintained the opinion still. The embargo was the Telum sine ictu, and showed the disposition.-- " Willing to wound, and yet afraid to strike." This was the character of the embargo ; it inflicted no in jury, but occasioned irritation and animosity. The Hon. Gentleman (the Member for the city of London) bad said that the measure was creating a strong sympathy in favour of Holland, and thus it was that Ministers com manded the poisoned chalice to their own lips. Mr. HODGSON, after some few remarks, observed that the effect of the embargo on English commerce was most injurious, and he doubted whether England would ever again have the same good market for her coals in Holland. Before the embargo was laid on the export of coals from Newcastle and Sunderland amounted to 160,000 or 170,000 tons per annum ; and the number of vessels engaged in the trade amounted to five hundred, the whole of which were thrown out of employ. Dr. LUSHINGTON was at a loss to suppose that the embargo imposed on the trade of Holland for six months would not involve her in a situation which she would find it difficult to survive. The Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for Tamwortb, bad commented on the unconsti tutionality and of an embargo. Would that Right Hon. Gentleman question the power which was vested in the Crown of making peace or war, and would he say that the Crown should not indict on Holland some thing short of a declaration of a war ? Would the Right Hon. Baronet say that the Constitution had forbidden the Government to resort to a mitigated measure, even though it were to prevent a war in which, perhaps, all Europe might be involved ? They were told by an Hon. Gentle man to look at all the insurances which were effected. Now he (Dr. Lushington) would look to the fact that it was not competent for any subject to make any insurances which should be against the act of the British Govern ment. In justice and sound policy what must be the consequence of allowing persons to insure against the acts of hostility of their own Government, as applied to foreign powers, and thus relieve the foreigner from the consequence of the acts of their own Government, by paying him out of the pockets of British subjects ? The Hon. Member for Eessex (Mr.A.Baring), in commenting on the speech of the Solicitor-General, had expressed his astonishment at the doctrines which his Hon. and Learned Friend had laid down. That Hon. Gentleman had himself entertained by turns every opinion which had ever been promulgated in that House, and he had at last come to a definitive con. clusion. If lie (Doctor Lushington) understood his Hon. and Learned Friend he said, that if the King of Holland refused to abide by the principles of almost all the civi lized world—by the avowed principles of England and France—that if the King of Holland took shelter under the principles of the Holly Alliance--it was an act on his part of injustice to attempt to exercise his thraldom over la people who differed from his own subjects in all their feelings and opinions, in virtue of the annexation of Bel gium to Holland in 1814. Ile would say that if war were to come upon us to-morrow he would still thank Divine Providence that for three years we had had pro found peace ; that we had had in that period the oppor tunity of economising our expenditure ; and, above all, that the shedding of human blood had been postponed. In conclusion, the Hon. and Learned Civilian observed that so far from agreeing with the Hon. Member for Essex in the fear which lie had expressed, that in the course of policy which the Government had adopted they were the victims of French diplomacy, he was thankful for the past, and full of hope for thefuture. An HON. Nlzaaamt, who stated himself to be the repre sentative of a shipping town, bore testimony to the very serious inconvenience sustained by the shipping interest of this country by the embargo laid on our commerce with Holland, and statgl the case of the goods on board an being transferred to an American vesse l, English ship which vessel made a voyage to Rotterdam, arid, he be- lieved, another port in Holland, and returned to a port in England, from whence she took her cargo, in a very few weeks, with a new freight, and having cleared 360/. ; and that On her return she found the English ship still lying in the same berth unemployed. Mr. POLLOCK would maintain that the using that which wan an inntrument of war in this case was at least a tyrannical proceeding-. Sir B. INGLIS said that the Noble Lord the Paymas ter of the Forces, in his character of Cabinet Minister, had advanced doctrines which he hoped would not be he listened to in that House. Now he (Sir H. 11. Inglis) would ask that Noble Lord whether it were fitting that he should state to the House that the King of the Netherlands was procrastinating the deliberations o❑ this great question, which had occupied three years of negoti ation, with a view to resume his power over Belgium? Did not that Noble Lord know that from the first mo ment of the insurrection in Brussels, the King of the Netherlands had recognised the separation of the two countries ? With respect to the treaty of the 15th of November, the King had never attempted to refuse to grant the independence of Belgium, and the questions which had been raised were comparatively on minor points only. Did not the Noble Lord know that the three great cities in the Low Countries were not so op. posed to the House of Orange as his observations would imply? He concurred in thinking that an embargo must necessarily occasion much commercial e mbarrassment. The Learned Civilian bad dwelt very ably on the horrors of war, and he (Sir H. Inglis) was sure that no man who recollected either Mr. Fox's or Mr. Burke's definition of war could hesitate for an instant to agree with the Hon. and Learned Civilian in their horror of war. Lord ALTHORP said that as to whether the King of Holland still wished to maintain his dominion over Bel gium that was at present purely a matter of opinion ; but he had certainly never consented to sign any treaty having for its object the independence of Belgium unless it should be accompanied by certain propositions of a nature which rendered it impossible for the Powers interested to ac cede to them. And when they looked at any Power which, without making any declaration of refusal to grant the independence of a country, still took care to avoid signing treaties for that purpose, such a course amounted almost to a refusal. Now, in respect to this question, it had resolved itself into this narrow compass, for it was simply whether it was fair play on the part of this country to maintain an embargo with a view to lead to the termination of the present state of things. No man could doubt that the effect of the embargo must be very distressing to the commerce of this country; but this must be the consequence in any case that could be imagined in which anything like force was used with a view to fulfil a national object. The question for the House to consider was, whether it was desirable for them to interfere and put an end to this embargo (taking into view the general policy of the country), and whether or not it was necessary to proceed in the course which his Majesty's Ministers had adopted, in order to secure the general peace of Europe, because, though the evil of the embargo, as it respected individual interests, could not be doubted, still the evil of a war breaking out on the con tinent must be much greater? In short, the question was, whether the interference of this House would not have the effect of protracting the settlement of this ques tion ? The Hon. Baronet, indeed, seemed to think that the preservation of peace must be secured from the state of the different countries on the continent, but he (Lord a 1.1—.0 would be maionined if a war were to continue between Holland and Belgium ? And here the question arose whether, having resorted to coercive means, his Majesty's Ministers should persist in the adoption of these means ? It was certainly the duty of. .the Government to take every step which should enable them to remove the restrictions which now existed upon our commerce. Mr. RowesoN and Lord PALMERSTON having made some few remarks, Mr. ROBINSON would ask whether, if the three Northern Powers were really in earnest in their desire to see the settlement of the question, Holland must not of ne cessity yield to the dictation of England and Fiance ? Then, as to the navigation between Holland and England, the fact was, that one eighth of our shipping were em ployed in it. The consequence of the embargo must be to throw all these ships into other trades, when the rate of freights was already diminished to a very great extent. The members of Lloyd's were determined to pay all the ex penses arising from the confiscation, the insurances having been effected in time of peace, and mgt of war. He was not disposed to embarrass the Government, and indeed he never saw any Government towards which more forbear ance was shown than the present.—(Hear, bear, hear.) He really believed the three great Northern Powers were desirous to prolong the negotiations, for the purpose of ob taining more favourable terms for Holland. He protested against the original laying on of the embargo ; and the conduct of Holland as contrasted with that of this country was most creditable to her. Mr. Ald. THOMPSON declined pressing his motion. TURKEY. Mr. HUME rose to bring forward his motion. If there was any one thing more than another against which this count . ry was more anxious to guard, it was war. The question he wished to ask was, why the capital of Turkey was left without a British Ambassador at a time like the present, the French Minister left alone to act in the ca pital of that empire, and a Russian naval and military force to establish themselves there ? This was a question of great importance. He always contended that they ought not to interfere in the affairs of foreign nations, and he observed that when they did so, the interference ended in disgrace. He avowed candidly that their interference in Holland was disgraceful, and made them a laughing stock to all Europe. It was important to know how far, through the negligence of Ministers, Russia, the greatest enemy of Europe, was allowed to gain such influence in Turkey. Their diplomacy for fourteen years, up to 1830, cost not less than 400,0001. a year. Now, when the hour of danger arrived, the Sultan was obliged to throw himself into the hands of Russia, no British Ambassador being there to assist the French. He believed there was not even a British fleet to interfere. He wished to know if an Ambassador had been appointed, and, if so, why he was not at his post. There was a report within the last feu ty•eight hours of a messenger having arrived in Russia from the Sultan to thank the Emperor Nicholas for his interference. The Hon. Member concluded by moving for a return of all the Ambassadors and Secretaries of Embassy appointed to Constantinople from January, 1827, their salaries, length of service, date of appointment, &c. Lord PALMERSTON had no objection to the return. Sir R. Gordon returned home from Constantinople early in last year, and Sir Stratford Canning set out soon after on a special mission. Lord Ponsonby was then irntne diately appointed Ambassador to that Court. He believed he had already arrived there, and would have arrived sooner were it not for unexpected delays in his conveyance. Though there was no Ambassador there at the time men tioned, there was a Secretary of Embassy, who acted with great discretion, and entirely to the satisfaction of the Go vernment. He was taken to task by the Member for Essex for perpetually meddling, and now the Member for Middlesex took him to task for not meddling. Government was blamed for interfering in matters passing just at their own doors, and now they were blamed for not interfering in matters passing at the other side of Europe. They could hardly be censured for not sooner interfering in the affairs of Turkey, for the Ambassador was on his road. The Member for Middlesex asked, where was the fleet ? He would ask the Hon. Member, in return, where the fleet would be if his motion for reducing 7,000 seamen had been agreed to ?—(Hear, hear.) He coold assure tile House that his Majesty's Government was not inattentive to the events passing in the East. They attracted their most serious attention, and they were not negligent of the steps necessary to guard against danger. When the proper time arrived for explanation, he shoild be able to satisfy the House that Government was not indifferent to the due discharge of their duty. Mr. A. BARING said this case of Turkey was a new one, and there was no circumstance to show that the Go vernment took any steps to guard against the threatened danger. It was not a satisfactory answer to be now told that the ambassador could find no means of quick convey.- sore. If the secretary of embassy did his duty so well it was a justification of the opinions entertained by the Mem ber for Middlesex as to the expense of embassies. Lord PALMERSTON said the fact was, the frigate which was to convey their ambassador to C ons tantinople was detained by contrary winds at Naples for a month. After a few words from Colonel DAVIES and Mr. H. L. BuLwEa, the motion was withdrawn. In answer to a question from Mr. A. BARING, re specting the Bank Charter, and that of the East India Company, of the delay of which to so late a period of the session he complained, Lord ALTHORP said he hoped he should be able to bring forward the subject of the Bank Charter by the end of next week, or the beginning of the following. The other was a subject attended with more difficulty. He could not say now precisely at what time it would be brought under the consideration of the House. _ . Mr. C. GRANT said the correspondence with the Directors was still in progress to settlement. He did think he could have brought the subject forward before Easter, but was prevented by circumstances which he did not anticipate. He would bring it on at the earliest possible period. ARMY ESTIMATES. The House then went into Committee on the army es timates. Mr. ELLICE said the first vote he should have to pro pose was f , m. thtt charge of staff officers. There was a reduction under this bead in the vote of the present year amounting to 12,0001. ; but, there being an excess of 5,0001. under the head of the medical staff, the total amount of the reduction would be only 6,400/. The Right lion. Gentleman concluded by moving that a sum of 110,831/. be granted for defraying the charges of the general staff. Mr. HUME said he should not go into the main ques tion, as the whole subject was to come under the consi• deration of a Committee. He would take that opportu nity of putting a question relative to a circumstance said to have recently occurred in Jersey. It would appear that the Parliament of Jersey had given permission that the public might be present at their proceedings. This, however, was objected to by the Governor. Now it was a matter of some importance that the public should not feel dissatisfied with an officer in his situation; and it was on this account he asked whether there was any foundation for what he saw asserted upon this subject ? Mr. G. LAMB said he was not prepared to answer the question of the Hon. Member. He believed some regulation of the ki❑d was made, but disallowed by the Privy Council. He was not aware that the Governor had more to do with it than any other Member of the Council. The vote was agreed to. _ _ The next vote proposed was for the charge of allowances to officers of public departments, clerks, &c. &c., 94,6271. In this vote, as compared with that of last year, there was a reduction of 8,3871. Mr. HUME said he was long of opinion that the office of Paymaster-General should be entirely abolished. The whole of the money under this head ought to come throuA the Secretary at War. A sum of 13,0001. a year might be saved in this way. Indeed be expected that, under a reformed Parliament, the Paymaster-General himself would have come down to the House and declared the situation, with all its attendant expenses, unnecessary. Lord J. RUSSELL said, that a proposition bad been made to abolish the office which he held for the present, and that for the benefit of the public service. Now, with that proposition he could not agree. This House might an swer it was necessary to abolish his office ; this House might think it necessary to reduce the estimates which were proposed ; but this be could fairly state, that the reduction of the Paymaster of the Forces could not lead much to the general economy in the expenditure of the country. Sir H. PARNELL considered that if the English Go vernment adopted the plan of the French Government, by simplifying their accounts, they would accomplish much for the general advantage of the English people. The simplification of the public accounts would do a groat deal of good to the country. Mr. HUME—If that be the case, why not simplify the accounts at once? If the Government did not do so, they would be very properly accused of promising much, and not performing any thing, After a few words front Mr. RUTIVIEN and Mr. Et- LICE, the vote was agreed to. . . That 11,8501. be granted for medicines.—Agreed to. That 33,4151. 9s. 10d. be granted for the charge of garrisons at home and abroad. That 103,1811. Is. be granted for the volunteer corps. Mr. HUME said he considered the time was gone by when volunteer corps were necessary in any part of the country. The people of the country were loyal to their King and their country, and there was no need of any eleemosynary force to aid them. Mr. ELLICE said that perhaps the permanent star of volunteers might be dispensed with, and he would consider of it. But still he thought that their entire reduction would not lead to economy in the public expenditure. If, however, any abuses existed in this department of the public service, he would do all in his power to remedy thetn.—(H,ar.) Mr. JE RVIS said a few words which did not reach the gulls ry. Mi. O'CONNELL asked what way the meaning of volunteers? In Ireland they were Orangemen, in Eng land they might be differeßt. Mr. JONES—Has not the Hon. Member for Dublin volunteered and been a volunteer, and excited persons to become volunteers? Mr. O'CONNELL—Certainly not, and the Hon. Member, if he knew any thing, must know the fact. Mr. RUTHVEN said he was decidedly opposed to the maintenance of the yeomanry system in Ireland, as it was against the feelings and opinions of the great majority of the Irish people.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. ELLICE said if injustice had been done in Ireland in this respect he would do all he could to remedy it. Mr. SHAW said that the yeomanry corps of Ireland had always discharged their duty to their country, and he would not permit them to be vilified on this occasion. Mr. MlME—Perhaps the Irish volunteers discharged their duty in other times, but why continue them at the present time ? Why continue the Huddersfield cavalry corps ? What had they done to command the respect of the country ? Nothing. An HoN. Micsfaxn said that the Huddersfield corps of yeomanry had upon every occasion fully discharged their duty to their King and country.--(Hear.) Mr. G. LAMB said that, looking at the state of the country in the year 1830, it was necessary to have the assistance of the yeomanry corps, and they had when called upon very ably discharged their duty. His Majesty's Government had done all they could to reduce expendi ture, whether in staff or other allowances, and it' they could do more they would be happy to do so. He thought that the system now proposed would confer great benefit upon the country. Mr. JOHNSTONE said a few words which did not reach the gallery. Mr. R. WALLACE said that the petition alluded to by the Hon. Member (Mr. Hume) was intended to divide one class of the people against the other, both in Scotland and in Ireland. The flame had already been spread be tween the Orangemen and the Catholics of Ireland, and he should be sorry to see it more widely extended. Colonel PERCEVAL begged leave most positively to deny that the Orangemen of Ireland were the cause of any dissension in that country.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. C. A. WALKER—Yes, that might be so ; but he knew as a fact that the yeomanry in certain counties in Ireland were positively maintained to shoot the Catholics. —(No, no.) The fact he knew to he so, and therefore he would oppose this grant. The Earl of BELFAST defended the respectability of the Irish yeomonry. Mr. O'CONNELL said that it was a common practice of the Irish yeomen to tire at Roman Catholics while in the act of following some deceased relative to the grave. This had happened in Belfast, the town the Noble Lewd represented. Mr. F. O'CONNOR said that a yeoman who had been found guilty of a murder bad been recommended to mercy because he was a good Orangetnan, a good Yeoman, and a good Pretestaat. He contended that more disturbances had been occasioned in Ireland by the yeomen than by any other body of persons. An HoN. MEMBER, protested against the statement of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin as exaggerated. Mr. O'CONNELL said, that although he might have exaggerated the facts, the Hon. Gentlerna❑ who had just spoken had admitted there was some truth for what he had stated. Mr. ELLICE said he should have no objecction to de duct the 2,0001. for the Huddersfield corps, and therefore he hoped that the Hon. Member would allow the vote to pass. After some further conversation between Mr. Hume, Mr. Guest, Mr. Methuen, Mr. Petre, Mr. J. Young, Mr. Parrot, Mr. Fenton, and Lord Ebrington, the House divided-- For the amendment 52 Against it 205 Majority -153 The vote was then agreed to. 17,500/. were granted for Exchequer fees. 119,000 1 . were granted for the pay of general Officers not being Colonels of regiments. -- 86,000 1 . were granted for the full pay of reduced or retired officers. 86,4801. were granted for the pensions of reduced or retired officers of disbanded foreign regiments. 632,0001. were granted for the half-pay of reduced or retired officers. 145,914/. were granted for the pensions and allowances to widows of officers belonging to the land forces. 170,516/. were granted for defraying the allowances paid out of the compassionate list. Mr. ELLICE then moved that the sum of 1,211,7461. gs. 2d. be granted for defraying the expenses of Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals for the ensuing year. The Right Hon. Gentleman said this vote had been reduced 188,0001.—The vote was agreed to. The following votes were then agreed to :- 51,3741.35. 6(L for superannuation allowances for civil departments of the army. 12,5001. for Exchequer fees. The House then resumed, and the Chairman reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again. The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at half. past one o'clock, to Monday. The influenza is very general in Frome.— Bath Herald. LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, MAY 11, 1833. We congratulate all who have any respect for public principle and enlightened feelings, on the defeat of Sir J. C. HOBHOUSE, and the triumphant return of Col. EVANS. Govern ment will see in this triumph—which, as a marked sign of the times, is pregnant with im portance—the necessity of adapting their mea sures so as to promote not partial, but general interests. On Monday next they will afford us an opportunity of ascertaining whether they are likely to profit by the lessons of experience ; whether they will have the sagacity to concede (we allude to the house and window taxes) what cannot be much longer denied with safety to the well-being of the community. Whether with or without the consent of Ministers, these oppressive taxes must go. The public sentence of condemnation has gone forth against them. As well might Government enact the part of Mrs. Partington, and attempt to thrust back the Atlantic with a mop, as insist on a pro.. tracted continuance of these iniquitous taxes. Yet, though determined, the people are not un reasonable. They will make allowance for diffi culties, provided they see sincerity of intention. Let Ministers, then, meet them half way. Let them pledge themselves to some specific period for the abolition of these crying grievances. Let them, for instance, make a promise to remit both house and window tax by January next ;—surely this is giving them ample time for considera tions, contrivances, and so forth !—and they will yet be able to retain their hold on public esteem. But if they do not come to some speedy decision of this sort, we would not insure their continu ance in office for a month. The Times of this morning, in alluding to the correspondence between Sir JOHN CAM HOSHOUSE and Colonel EvANs, which we were enabled to give at an early hour yesterday, says the affair ended amicably and honourably for all parties. We do not intend to dispute the correctness of this statement, but we think that as Sir JOHN HOBHOUSE avoided the alter natives of fighting or apologizing, by the usual course of charging misrepresentations upon the newspaper reporters, the Times, which is an authority in its reports not easily to be discre dited even by the assertions of Sir JOHN HOB HOUSE, owes it to the individual whose cause it has supported with so much zeal, to put for ward the admission of its reporter as to the in correctness of the report in question, if the ex pressions of Sir JOHN HOBHOUSE were really such as he has stated them to have been. Nothing short of such an admission, or the testimony of impartial persons who were present at the meeting, to the incorrectness of the re port, will, we are sure, convince the public that the affair has ended honourably for all parties. In the absence of proof as to the real language used by Sir JOHN HOBHOUSE, the public will think that it would have been more honourable to have avowed the words really used, and to have apologized for them on the ground of the excitement under which they were uttered, and the misinformation which gave them birth. This would have been a straightforward course, and one which would have done Sir JOHN Hos- HOUSE more credit than fixing a charge of in accuracy on the reporter of the Times. With respect to what the Times says on other circumstances connected with the West minster election, we are able, of our own know ledge, to say that it has been deceived. It is not true that Colonel EVANS has been returned by a majority of less than one-third of the electors, half the qualified electors having given their votes, and as to the indifference of the remain ing electors, we can only say that there are more than 1,200 unpolled electors, who declared to the Committee of Colonel EVANS that they held the political conduct of Sir JoHN Hos- HOUSE in detes ation, and would willingly vote for Colonel EVANS if they were not deterred from doing so by influence, and at the same time by a conviction that without their aid he would gain the day. Within a hundred yards of the PRICES OF FOREIGN FUNDS Austrian Bonds (1350 Belgian Bonds 55% Ditto Account 85 3 ,4 Brazilian Bonds 65% Ditto Account 654 5 W Buenos Ayres Bonds 051,i Ditto Account 255; Chilian Bonds 2l Ditto Account Columbian Bonds 15% Ditto Account Ditto Bonds, 1824 Ditto Account Danish Bonds Ditto Account Greek Bonds 32 1 3 A Ditto Bonds, 1825 Ditto Account hfexican Bonds, 5 per cent 2514 Ditto Account Ditto, 6 per cent. 33 34 Ditto Account, 34 Neapolitan SiN DAY AT ONY O'CLOCK. PRIM+ OF STOCKS THIS Rank Stock 3per Cent. Red. 8 6%4% 3 per Cent Cons. 3% per Cent. 93% MU° Red 94 'H 5 New 314 per Cent Cent 94% 5 3 per Cent. Ann. 172(1 4 per Cent 1826 840 k Long Ann to expire Jan. 5, ...... 16 3 i 13-16 Oct. 10, 185 A l6 1146 Jan. 5, 1860 ....... 17 1-16 Jan. 5, 1880 ' April 5, 1880 Jan. 5, 1870 New 5 per Cent. India Stock Ditto Bonds 29 9.7 pm. South Sea Stosk 93'4 Old Annuities New Ditto 3 per Cent. Ann. 1751 Ex. Bills, X1,000...48 49 48 pm. Ditt0..........500-48 49 48 pm. Ditto Small 4B 49 48 pm. Ditto Commercial...." pm. Ditto Advertised ... pm. Bank for Account India for Account . ..... 228 !Cons. for Account 6714 !4 THIS DAY AT ONE 0 CLOCK. Peruvian Bonds ISV, Portuguese Bonds s 3'f,i Ditto Account 53y, 4 4 Regency Scrip 34 cuffs. Ditto Account 34 die. Prussian Bonds Ditto Bonds,' 1322 ... 10:3!4 Russian Bonds, 1822 ... 102 N 71, Ditto Account New Loan 97% Spanish Bonds,lB2l. lB% Ditto Acc0unt......... 19 18% Ditto Bonds, 183 l6; isv; Ditto Account French Rentes, sp. c. —f —c. Exchange —f. —e. per cent —f —c. Exchange —f —e. Dutch, 21 p. c 45%7<, ' Ditto Account 453 4 7,/,, Ditto, 5 p. c , Ditto Account ....... French Scrip 4V, pm. PRICES OF SHARES THIS DAT AT ONZ O'CLOCK. Paid. Per Share. Anglo Mex. Min. Co. (las. at 5/. pm.) XlOO 13% Bolanos Mining Company £l5O 145 Brazilian Imp. Min. Co. (iss. at Si. pne.) £2O 64 Ditto National 17% 23 Ditto St. John Del Rey Ditto Cocaes 5 _ _ 155 British Iron Mining Company £5O Columbian Mining Co. (iss. at 5/. pm.) 50% English Mining Company 12% General Association Mining __. . 12 _ ._ Mexican Mining Co. .Z46 Real del Monte Mining C 0...., United Mex. Min. Co. (iss. at 21. pm.) 40 Ditto New Scrip 5 Alliance Fire Insurance Comp lO Protector Insurance Comp. Australian Co 25 Canada Company l7 General Steam Navigation Co l3 Provincial Bank of Ireland 25 7 4 - 29 12% 1614 10% £1 7 0 87 50 111 i 3334 PRICES OF IRISH STOC Bank Stock Consols, 3 per cent. Gov. Stock, 3% per cent 93% Ditto, New 94% per Cent Gov. Deb. 3% per cent 8774 Royal Canal Stock - Grand Canal Stock City Deb. 4 per cent. 7B Ballast Office Deb. 4p. c. - :KS, DUBLIN, MAY S. (St. Patrick Insur.(perShare) Royal Irish Ditto National Ditto ;Patriotic Ditto Hibernian Bank "2% IProviucial Ditto Royal Irish Mine Imperial Mine Mining Co. of Ireland Commercial Buildings .WGZ YESTERDAY. COURSE OF EXCHA Amsterdam C.F 12 3 Ditto, at sight 12 1 Rotterdam 2 U 12 3 Antwerp 12 8 Hamburg M.B. 13 15 Altona 13 15 Paris, 3 days' sight 25 90 Ditto 2 U. 26 15 Bordeaux "6 20 Berlin Frankfort on Maine, Ex. M. 154 Petersburgh, ruble, 3 Us. 10 0 Vienna, effective 11. 2 M. 10 8 Trieste do lO Madrid 37 a Cadiz '374 Bilboa '37 Barcelona 37 Seville 37 Gibraltar 474 Leghorn 4 6 34 Genoa 26 15 Milan '3l Venice 4634 Naples Palermo per oz. 120 Lisbon Oporto 47 Rio .laneiro Bahia 32 Buenos Ayres Dublin, 21 days' sight 134 Cork 134 BULLION, PER OZ. R. s. d. Portugal Gold, coin 0 0 0 Foreign Gold, in bars 3 17 9 New Doubloons 0 0 0 New D) ollas Silverhars, standard 0 4 107; Afei jr ~ted-,(ft were I , en i t t h e C le o c v t e o n r t s - w ga h r o de s n aid , 11 u „ st N i A n T g e cours e 7-4 HomiousE has taken, but we would rat? Pru"; vote against him. If, however, EVANS is c ol hard, send to us at three o'clock, on the se . der i , day, and we will lay aside all other consider Lions and go to the poll." A tradesman Itilo neighbourhood of Russell street, who was hustings there anxious to vote for Colonel EvANs, t N alarmed by the menaces of the friends 01,i opposing candidate that he consented out) support the Gallant Colonel, but being to vote against his conscience, we nt OUt o Another, near Drury-lane Th e atre, Fail') wish 'EvANs well, with all my heart, but not vote for him. Why don't they give 119,4, h i by ballot ? we should then be able to do liked." We could mention fifty other thirg a similar kind. t It is said that the Government did io• 0! forward to support Sir JOAN Hol3soVss‘diy assert that he was a Government 01 t ht throughout. He was accompanied the e hustings, on the day of nomination, by,it"veir I of one of the chief members of the u°OlS ment, and by the influential persons 0°115170 with the Ministry, and the report which Wafe forth on Wednesday, for the purpose e de dt clueing, an effect on those who had intee'nl;el,l4 vote against Sir JOHN HOBHOUsE, bse. that he had not fully relinquished the riel taryship for Ireland, was of Government iOt This report stated that Mr. SPRING Ill e t l s o s been appointed Secretary for Ireland. ":",isoi find that the office is still vacant, and t 113. 00r (lays after the resignation of Sir JO lll4 , frot l , HOUSE, despatches were addressed to M i d ° $ 0 a high department as Secretary for Irelan i veo the fair presumption is, that if he lin b( 6I returned for Westminster he would ha l ' Secretary for Ireland still. 0 09 Then again, as to the reported juneti°/1„10 Tories and the Reformers —nothing c°,,715 more unfounded. So far from this l',C5P' been the case, the Committee of 1-1011riol in order to strengthen themselves w ith co IC , support, put forth a placard stating that had resigned, and in less than one 11°I Voir the issuing of that placard, Sir JOOl4 alor'e HOUSE rose upon the poll. This 11°, 0 1 , 4 ° will show how the feeling ran. rril e „ n' voted with Sir JOHN HOBHOUSE as a p, they heard that they had lost their ovvil ip i t ier The charge of Colonel EVAN sS , having impeded the voting, by rerinlr;',°,tioili` administration of the oath, needs little reafroeo' It was found that some of the voters ki r t o° ° the other candidates were giving their .(itY houses which they no longer occupied, snitstitl° administration of the oath was a Pre,cs-014 which the legal friends of Colonel PO' 3 bound to take. 'de w ; We are told that a petition to set 351 , it ° election, on the ground of inforntaiitn4o,r the course of preparation. Is Sir tly HOUSE SE fallen so low ? We can tell 111 ' rri pil if were to succeed in so paltry an at te li ght e !, for which, however, there is not the s'n,,y ground—and another election were 1 1c/ cr et 9f ' place, the number of his voters would ' e and that of Colonel EVANS rise in the,y proportion as the latter rose between bisceo! contest, and that which he has g ained. , 01 ) .4 6 . minster has done its duty. It has " s or t; from the thraldom of faction, and 0 1 ° 1 ; 0 19 4 be enslaved. The lesson which the Go/ e Ol,l has P v received, is an important one. e become P. wise from experience, and e bf/ course. (ht ✓ We have inserted, in another colo n ' .0 Government plan of Negro ema ncipali n ?; o ll 4 ' ; it is of so complicated a nature, and 1°5,0/1 the consideration of so many calculat i°fl ce lr we should be unwilling at once to prort° iro opinion upon it. Upon one very materje Cr j also, it is far from being so clear as /11 wish. We allude to the obscurity vvil ic o oo l ' over the manner in which the 15,000, 0 00 01 to be advanced to the planters. We ' 0 th y ' that it is not to be advanced except urio roughly good security ; but where is r / to from ? Is it to be raised by a loan , 0r,0016) chequer bills ? The object of it is, we Pre',ggf enable the West Indians to pay off ill- r oe h i on which they are paying a large 1 ) 5, 1 ) interest, and thus compensate theallihd difference between the interest pay for this 15,000,0001., and that W" 1 to Lit are actually paying for a similar sign oi, te mortgagees. If that be not the mode ill e rcei they are to be compensated, we do no t P o io o i4 that the plan affords them any comP ens o A c i all. We know that strong arguments ,5 0 01 , principle, be urged against compensa til 'folltly, owners for the loss of a property tin t O l t: never to have possessed ; but, pottL",;0 11 other considerations, it is highly imp,, tit o h 4 the success of any plan of emancipatin:"bat pr , should not merely promote the distr s re immediate interests of the planter. %v e - 0 0 1 fectly aware that any plan whateve r e o . f ) denounced by the West India in ter '; order to get as large a co mP ens o ° 'et a Pi p" ei possible, just as the East India - 10' raved week after week against the q ° bel )l ; ,4 sketch of the new Charter, the rise in • g, of their stock 12 per cent. all the e i the lie to their assertions. But 84hcisborpit should on the publication of any plan i ' e O be , buying their estates at double their va' n 'ver l i e t the planters to growl a little, it is s till) 11 0 1) less, most desirable to leave them 1 1 ° goo re' opposition to the plan of ema ncipati° n ot at , f oo l they can unanimously agree. We do ntsios sent say that the Government plan e" r el e s 4 such grounds ; but, till the partieo l3r o ill ing the loan are explained, a do ubt he Di e over the subject. Our contemporaryw/ plev we see, imagines that this country but he r pay the interest of the 15,000,00°- / V ; e ; 11 0 1 or wherefore we cannot conjecture. nett i o l ,pr , think our contemporary mus t have. ° heiv e iti ci mistake upon this point. We wan,!,foi po till some explanation of these dolt; toops,v, has been given in the House of C ° a t heP well as till we have maturely co nsidere before we pronounce our opinion upo° P p • i ,• ceedings, but a report, which we g V It is not our habit to refer to i i v n e al i ' n 6 0 0 ;4 part of The Sun, of a trial this morning in the Court of King d eem ji b " of such a peculiar nature that we . _7, oo vic,'o l w hich tn neoc ti i) , an act of strict justice to express o o lo r - iet y ctio , many our thorough conviction, of the pr r i! nd ot, e verdict given in favour of the clel . e_ d t he _ d o BARING WALL. We have reportethere;eol dente at considerable lengthy b ut be g i 4 fficieri t e 0 but which of themselves were sti rto pt conviction to the mind of the most o , e o ' to rY . 05 sive person in Court, that the wn . °'_ icts ,io" .r ibli by the principal witness was a la` as bock impudent and barefaced, as it t, and atrocious. Nothing is easier t minute parts of it which cannot to t ae , r' e . ,;" soi 10, "tors, a cellsa, 4 4 th ey ni Th e r , 4,1 1 ''rar, i . . e '.llgh t It ' ~ab tl' , UeE 111' resit of t ce th "as to r e lidi rto ,I 30: fh, here h(I , qi , :, +4lnr IN f or tl Si I lli k,l Sir ttr k A Nob