The Sun. — London, England, 1830-03-16 00:00:00

`:_ _ _ /I $ property in the Funds, his confidence in the..; good f a i t h o f I the country, or the security of his debt, Ivould not be diminished, he could not but repeat his. opinion, that all financial operations in the moment of n aticetal difficulty were henceforward at an end.—(The IZon. Member dropped his voice so frequently, that we we re. unable to collect the tendency of many of his senten lees. e—Perhaps the Hou-e was not aware of the num! wr o I the public creditors. There were 274,823 different. ace aunts in the books of the Bank of England. In each acets unt it might l be taken that at least five persons were int e I resqed ; so th a t there were above 1,374,000 persons i atere sted in the public securities. These 1,374,000 pe I - sons might be I considered to be the greatest mass of the, intelligent per- I sons of the country. Out of the holders .of the 274,623 accounts, 250,000 did not receive a g neater half-yearly ' dividend than 100/. ; and the number of l 'half-yearly divi dends of 500/. did not exceed 2,000. Many of the ac counts also were the accounts of Saving Banks, in which numerous individuals were interested. if, therefore, the 1 stockholders did n o t p e titi o n Parham( nt to prote c t th e i r I rigets, it was because they were too, intelligent not to I know the entire security of their situati( in. Nevertheless, I he could not help regretting a measure, which must leave ! Government in a hopeless condition with respect to any I future contracts which the service aF the State mini 7 at render necessary. He would recomnaterol the Right 'l /( ; 11. Gentleman to read an able pamphikt recently • pr the writer of which proposed Ilea tonversion ablished, 70 . 4 atock in the latter, of the Fom• per Cents. into Five per Cente,„ e, -Y gi' o,l3 "g- to the holder of every 1001. stock in the for mer, per cent. By this the interest of which woield be eiel means there would be effected a sav:,,,g of 1,700, 000!. o f millions of capital, andintere a reduction offorty or . fifty . e. making the Five per Cent eta* for fifty or sixty years, It . thus cre a t e d i rre d eema bl e contract t was very tru e th a t to every here must be two that to such a conversion Parties ;a n d i t m i g h t h appen commended the holder i!!;:that which th e pamphlet re e' as r per Cents.. w ou ld b e In disposed to accede. Fetill he 'thought that it was a sub ject which well dose rued the, }eight Hon, Gentl eman ' s at tention. He was `also of ( r)iulon that it might be advisable to follow in this respect Go vernment, mad t o e t eAmin . the mon* of the French Go hum Parliament the power of taking any stepof ' cumstancea might Jest kind during th e rec ess w hi c h eh-- feesed that h e e - e • mem to render expedient. H e con - Gentleman sl- eeeeedingly regretted th a t th e Ri g h t H on. would hay Aeolhl have adopted a n y fi nanc i a l system wh i ch s. , eo pernicious an effect on our future re sources. It would hav e b een muc h b etter to have resisted the pr' Atm pressure, and to have waited until that return . 1). eoeperity which m i g ht b e f a i r l y expected, before the es elblishment of such a permanent system. The pressure '. of every period had always been considered at that period as ereater thatt it really was. Let them turn back to the debates on t.'ne establishment of the Sinking Fund in 1796. At that time the proposition of that great man was warmly 1 supported by Mr. Fox. It was singular to observe in the 1 debat"" Fn that occasion, how the taxation of only fifteen 1 • 1 "Moes was consid ere d a pressure greater than the country P cou l d b n ea " To you," said Mr. Pitt, i n a dd ress i ng t h e I .ouse of Commons—" to you do the public turn their f eyes, justl y expecting that from th e t rust you b o ld you •, • - vied dunk it your duty to make the most serious efforts, . I in order to afford them the long-wished-for prospect of !being relieved from an endless accumulation of taxes, un -1 der the burtlien of which they are ready to sink:" Thus the House would see that at that period, as at the present, apprehensions existed which were proved to be groundless; for the country soon emerged from the condition of ruin in which it was supposed to be sunk. Mr. Pitt went on to say---" To behold this country emerging from a most unfortunate war, which added such an accumulation to sums before immense that it was the belief of surrounding nations, and of many among ourselves, that our powers must fail us, and we should not be able to bear up under it; to behold this nation, instead of despairing at its alarming condition, looking boldly its situation in the face, and es tablishine, upon a spirited and permanent plan the means of relieving itself from all its incumbrances, must give such an idea of our resources, and of our spirit of exertion, as will astonish the nations around us, and enable us to regain that pre-eminence to which we are on may accounts so justly entitled." These sentiments of Mr. Pitt were loudly echoed by Mr. Fox, and their value was acknowledged by the whole House. But the present case was, in his opinion, a great proof of the degeneracy of the country. For the Government of this day, with no powerful party against them, with all about them anxious and desirous to promote what appeared to them to be the real interests of the country, listening to temporary distress, which would dis appear with the year, did away with what was the only firm security of public credit. It bad been stated in another place, that in case of any emergency this country was quite prepared fur hostility, and that her navy was never in a more efficient condition. He himself firmly believed that if any real attack were made on the interests and honour of the country, eveiy other con sideration would be ehaken off, and the utmost alacrity would be shown in resisting it. But still it was im possible to look at the pernicious influence, under such circumstances, of our enormous debt without pain.— While in France the debt was within the mastery of tl:e Fiench Government, by which a Sinking Fund had been established—while in America they had almost got rid of their debt, and in a few years would extinguish it entirely, while in Russia the discharge of the debt was in rapid pro gress—while in Prussia a similar process was going on— while even in Austria, lagging as that country was in financial matters, arrangements to that effect were making, this ceurory, which originally gave to the nations of Europe a lesson on the maintenance of public credit, had shrunk from a temporary suffering, and had abandoned its own principles of finance. With respect to the taxes which the Right Hon. Gent. proposed to repeal, he thought that the selection was a judicious one. The tax on cyder, which it was intended to repeal, had long been much more vexatious than productive. To the repeal of the beer duty this objection might be made. The Right lion. Gent. talked of it as affording a relief to the peasantry of the country; now the persons who would principally he re lieved by it were the artisans of the towns. Stil he thought the Right Hon. Gent. had made a judicious selection. He reverted, however, to his original argument, that he the event of war the course which had been pursued by Go vernment would render it a matter of difficulty, if not of impossibility, to borrow money for the service of the State. For what capitalist would lend, when it was not possible to conceive in what manner he could ever be repaid ? With respect to what were called war taxes, they appeared to him to be absurdly named. The pressure ought to be equally divided over periods of peace and war ; that the burdens contracted in the latter might be removed, or at least diminished, in the former. This was, in his opinion, sound policy; and lie deeply lamented that it had been de parted from. He feared that the country would be as little satisfied with the proceeding as himself. Lord ALTHORP took a very different view of the sub ject indeed from that taken by his Hon. Friend the Mem ber for Callington. The greater part of his Hon. Friend's observations had been directed against the reduction of the Four per Cents. He was sure, however, that the stock holders generally would not be at all alarmed at what-had fallen from his Hon. Friend ; and that they would not think their property rendered in the slightest degree inse cure. It was impossible in this free country—it was im possible in any free country, that any breach of faith such as that of which his Hon. Friend appeared to entertain some apprehensions could be effected. He did not think, therefore, that the circumstances to which his Hon. Friend alluded would have the effect which he anticipated from them. With respect to the rest of the propositions of the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he (Lord Althorp) entirely approved of them as far as they went. He highly approved of the reduction of the taxes, and es pecially of the reduction of the tax on beer ; which was, in his opinion, a very wise proceeding. And moreover, he would say, that if the Right Hon. Gent. really calcula ted on the positive reduction of the revenue to be as great a' the apparent amount of taxes reduced, the country could not expect him to go moth further than be had gone. He regretted, however, that the Right Hon. Gent. had not taken a more enlarged view of the subject. He regretted that it had not occurred to him that the reduc tion of taxes which bore on the productive industry of the people was calculated to increase rather than to diminish the revenue. That bad been shown in various cases. There was the tax on tobacco, for instance, a tax of 400 per rent. on the article. The Pict that the last increase of the duty upon tobacco bad not increased the revenue arising from it, was a proof that tobacco was over taxed. He was convinced, that with due attention and con sideration, much greater relief might be afforded to the people in the shape of a reduction of taxation, without any diminution of the revenue. On that point an-Hon. Friend of his had given notice of a motion for Friday next, in which motion—which he had hoped might have b.-en rendered unnecessary by the fin !ncial statement of that evening--he now trusted that Ills Hon. Friend would per s vere, and that lie wmibl receive the support of the House. He was not without hope that even the Right Hon. Gentleman would not object to his Hon. Friend's motion, considering its great importance. The Hon. Member-fur Callington had said that, in 1786, Mr. Pitt considered a taxation of fifteen millions as pregnant v lilt ruiu to the country. At various periods of our financial history similar opinions had been entertained. For him ' self, he was of opinion that the present amount of taxation, if properly levied, and not permitted to press on the pro- . tinctive interest of the country, might be borne without with all eiaet-iitv, that I laia.. la!-aatael ie 4i eat neatly to st•lt•ct the course wlti eh 1 theitgat meat cotalticive to the public good, and that I h ive endeavoured, in the applica tion o f these means placed in my power, to give relief in that (rat ter where I l:new the greatest tlistress to prevail ; and that 1 have exercised the discretion reposed in me in • that manner which I conceived to he most conducive to the comfort and happiness of the labouring classes of the people.—( Heir. ) —lf I should be disappointed in the effects 1 anticipate from tleit selection; if the revenue, in !stead of being lienefited, should be injured, I shall still hav e the eetiefietien of feeling that my intentions were go o I, and that I erred with rei earnest desire to relieve. I do not think, however, that we shall fail ; I see in the darkeese that has lately surrounded us a ray of light. I think tbet there is even now a prospect of our emerging ! . '° ll C th e clouds of misery and distress, by which we have beep enveloped, into a state approaching to something of grolte r happiness and prosperity; but it I shall unhappily he: tlieappointed in that expectstion, I shall deplore, but net regret, my error. I shall rejoice that I have made an ftttt•nipt to relieve those classes which have been suffering much from distress ; and I shall be well content to ite tda'sce in the obloquy of having made a Nee calculation. The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded, amidst loud and *enteral cheers, by moving the usual resolution.—[Our re- Para of his speech will, we trust-, he found tolerably cor lea in substance and in language; but the Right Hon. Oentleman, from the weakness, we presume, of recent in disposition, dropped his voice at the conclusion of his sen tences, in a manner which made it extremely difficult at times to conjecture what was intended to be conveyed to ti-e Committee.] Mr. A. BARING rose amidst great :noise in the House, and in the Gallery, from the retirement, of both Members and strangers. We understood him to, commence by say ing. that no Minister ever came down to that House to declar e hi s intention to relieve the b urthens of the people ueder eircumstanees which repaired such an announcement more strang iv than those which at tended the Right Hon. Gent., an diet no: Chancellor eve did so without being bailed by the ~applause of the Ha use and the people. He was sorry to• sav, however, that 'he did not agree with the Right Hon. Getata in his opinic , n, that the distress was much diminished; and althoue ,h he rejoiced in common with the House at the prospect- of a reduction of taxation, he could not give his unqualified ascent to some of the statements of the Ri'ght Flon Gel. on ttae subject of the Wa y s and Means, nor to %be course which he intimated his intention to adopt w i e n reference ro the public funds. He thought that the Rie t ut cle ar l y the suppl i es fro Hon. had not stated very am which he intended to draw the means of these rednct ,ens, nor the situation of the public i oncome on whirls he propose d t h at hi s re d uc ti o ns should o Perate. The Ri e el at Hon. Gent. proposes reductions ce taxation to the exte` a t of 3,400,000/. His surplus is made by 0(2 ,667,0001. sin expenditure of plus of the income of the year oveaa 'the 110,0001. which he anticipates from the Stamp D atiee, and of 330,0001. from Sprits.— The whole aurplus might be taken, perhaps, in round n um b e r rs, to be 3,070,000/. ; and the reduction of taxation to ae 3,400,000/. ;so that there remained about 330,000/., looking at the case according to figures, to be ' accounted for in some other way. There was, in fact, defici enc y to that stastonnt not provided for. He did a ,eth his not quarrel with th e Yatight Hon. Gent. for putting fe vision of b e tt er d ay s, and his hopes that the cloe ds would be dispelled whic/ t now hung over our Mu' ..try and our commerce; but !,t was right to say, that ir a figures —laying aside the anticipations of fancied p ro s r a erity—there would be a provid e d fancy to the amount he stated, wholly uo.. The CH A. 7 aICELLOR of . the EXCHEQUER did not quite agree u t the ca.cadatton put forth by th e H onoura bl e 11 ember fir Callington as the result of his statements. When the don. Gent. raid that he calculated the Spirit Dntiee at 330,000/. or perhaps 400,0001., the Hon. Gent. theuld rec •ollect that lie made that calculation for the por tif h la a °f th e p resent year which was still to come ; and that had' made his 'calculations for the whole year, and in cluded ate portion of the next year, to make up for that which was Passed of the present, he should be more accu rate if he toaated. the Stamps at 200,0001. and the Spirits at 450,000/. The Hon. Member would also give him leave to say. =that when he calculated an increase of reve nue from the augmentation of the Excise Duties, although he did ° t he the amount, he might, as a consequent of the repeal of the tax on beer, have stated the increase on malt as 4 positive increase, which would have been a com pensation a although. he had not brought it formally into the am- ,ant.-..-( Hear, hear.) Mc , . BARING said they were then come to this, that after all that had been said of a surplus of revenue over "Pe , - aditure, in order to supply the demands of the Sinking Fun j d, all su rp l us f or t h at purpose was now disposed of, and • it was reserved for the Right Hon. Gentleman to 13 1.d0 all that had been done by his predecessors; and Ittaying his hand on the only surplus which they had, to declare that all hopes of a surplus, to be applicable to the -rvilietion of the-public debt, were to he derived from some ?sanguine expectations of a future, though distant, improve talent of the revenue. He denied, however, that the public `creditor - would be affected in his sense of security by any 'thing which had been done. There was in the people of this cosautry a sound sense and right feeling, and such a ilmin4le of good faith, that no acts of the Government could 'iiatke - , their sense of security ; but Le would ask at, the ' - aaire time if all hope of repaying that debt through the imean s of a sinking fund was at an end, whether they were llta go on for ever without making an effort to get rid of 'the load which weighed down the energies of the country ? If any gentleman indulged himself with the vision of any fu- ture prosperity ever enabling them to get rid of that debt,llll -he could say was, that he would be lamentably disappointed. Ile repeated that, as far as figures went, there was not any ."I.t'Pli'.sebut a d e fi c i ency unprovirled for; and he must say it.'svas singularly un f ortunate t h at measures o f fi nance, v di dly bro ug h t forward for the improvement of public eanti: s hould hav e th e contrary effect, by showing that the devised to support it had failed, and that the Govern ment, as far from m eat , o - the Possessing a surplus revenue for the pay meat, creditor, were actually unable to meet the *hole qefi ei nnoY. He did not mean to say that this was cal the I. tO excite the slightest feeling:l of apprehension in netul' 44 '"t of the p u bli c creditor; b ut t hi s h e wou ld con e--tisat the means of providing for the exigencies of ,b,y (sorrowing front the capitalists were at an end, emit le ahe funding system was at an end, and that it av a oneld he impossible to find the means of providing for slue:tire exigencies• in that way, unless by an act of the Profligate dishonesty towards the present public ere eittor. lie repeated, that the decision of that night would 'go to establish that point beyond question, and almost beyond recal. Mr. Pitt, at the time he prepared the establishment of the Sinking Fund, declared, that " that food at any time or on any pretence to be diverted from lite proper object, would be to ruin, defeat, and overturn the 'whole of his plan. He hoped, therefore, when the bill he should introducesho u ld into law, that House would pass a hold itself solemnly pledged not to listen to a proposal foe its repeal on any pretence whatever." These were The words of Mr. Pitt ; and yet they had lived to tee t he tim e when a' Minister appears in that House, and 'her frittering away on one pretence or other all the bene- C! l ts which were hoped to be drawn from the Sinking 'uid, h e finally proposes t o swee p away a l toget h er t h e in leerne laid by for its maintenance. He was convinced that de ans would and should have been found to support this , s ad; but if they w ere t o a d o pt th e po li cy expoun d e d i n t h e a rket-pla ces --if they were not to look at the consequences : a _being comp e ll e d to go to war, but, on the contrary, to - 9 , the reet d f a cme in• the r imen a ion n d hi with p am h:es, and actm according s to the political wisdom to be ,at P enenden-heath, or in the Market-place of a timsf ard; then h e wou ld s a y th a t th e cre dit, th e nit t i antr, the interests, and the power of this country must ti tl 'atelY sink with the weakness which made them listen oe P i t s uggestions. lie bad always thought favourably art, :r• Pitt. He had always admired his domestic policy rts.pteeeer he mit be disposed to say of his conduct with , et to our for e ignl t . • but when he was taunted re a sons, w t ta ea ! to b e 4i etnning the Sinking Fund of Mr. Pitt, it ought Pond, .collectedr he did not condemn the Sinking not a the abuses of the Sinkieg Fund. He did F and . ; ad o fault with the real, but the sham Sinking 'elan s q. .11d b could scarcely conceive any thi ng. la he conferse e and the ha °unt rY TI • • te consequence of the clause of Me. p„ • us was ne nor having been Acted on during the war. He looked blamed the plan of Mr. Pitt; lie had always the c on it- as the only means of saving the country from th e a °l : sequen ces of its debt—and had complained not that at; ern was followed up, but that it was abandoned.-- s . 0 . Pitt determined that whenever the Sinking Fund fell ta ls za rt ti the deficiency was to be supplied by an increase of that an d Ile (Mr. Baring) was thoroughly satisfied sinkinthat plan had b een str i ct l y f o ll owe d up , an d if th e {ablelCi.Pund of fi ve m i ll i ons, once proposed to b e invic the dUP to th a t. h our b een ma i n t a i ne d i nv i o l a bl e , in g theHo'n'e Would not at that moment be consider of th e CPriety o f it plan for reducing the interest an y othe r Per Cents. or the Three per Cents. or abled t o ir t rek, but that they would have been into Auce the whole •debt at that moment into was Z n r „ tth i".—(Cries of Hear, hear, hear. ) to reduce the p o .— Opinion He thought that the proposal from the mouth 4 n e f lr Cents. came with a very bad grace hope of Paying aa Minister who acknowledged that the tunny abandoned n Y Portion of the debt was almoet vie ; and although, if it suited him to hold //= . 'de,- .49 e ', difficulty. Whatever surplus then' :iight be of isle, ne I over expendit ure oug h t, i n his opiiiiiin, to be reducer( in taxation. He never approved of the application of sieth surplus to the reduction of the national debt. He le o t ar d at that debt as a perpetual annuity; and he was t.nieVineel, that if, as he believed, by repealing t.aes, the geneiral wealth of the country would ls noire increased than the Idebt wre i ld be diminished by their continuance, good I policy dictated that the amount of tire taxes sheath! be left lin the pock e t s o f t h e people. The Right Hon. Gentle:flan had said that, un:ler the present circumstances cif the cowl , try, Government felt called upon to run some risk on the I question of revenue. He (Lord Althorp) wished that I they had run further risk. He wished that they had re duced other taxes; the reduction of which he was per suaded would h ave b enehtted rather than i n j ured the re venue. By reducing the taxes to which he alluded a spring wo u ld b e g i ve . , i to industry that in its effect would mor e th an thin in th e fi rst . entertained • , instance. Such were the views which he r 'ompensate to the revenue for its dirnieiu "on the subject. He approved of the reduction as far as - . it went ; but be regretted that it had not gon e fu raw , . r ; he regretted that more general and extensive I ' s ' ws had not suggested to his Majesty's Ministers the ex. pediency of looking at the subject in a more enlarged view, • and of proposing a more general measure of reduction. Mr. ROBINSON followed—Nothing which he lead heard from the Right Host, the Chancellor of the Ex chequer would have the effect of inducing him to relin. quish his intended proposition en Friday next, to make a more extensive reduction of those taxes which pressed on the productive industry of the country, and to supply any deficiency which might thereby be occasioned in the reve nue by an equitable assessment on property. Mr. HUME was anxious to say a few words, after what had fallen from the Hon. Member for Callington, be cause he thought that that lion. Gent. had' taken a very unfair view of the statement of the Right Hen. the Chancellor of the Exchequer; and had expressed fears with respect to the injury that statement was calculated to effect on public credit, • which fears he (Mr. Hume) did not believe existed in any other mind but the Hon. Gent's. own. If there was any subject which less than any other he should have expected to be agitated that evening, it was the Sinking Fund—a topic which had long been dead and buried. ' The Hon. - Member for Callington had, however, quoted the speeches of Mr. Pitt and Mr. Fox, in support of a system now admitted on all hands to be altogether fallacious. The idea of any person's paying his debts by borrowing on his own security, was now allowed by every body to be perfectly impracticable; and yet if the I Hon. Member for Callington did not advocate that prin ciple, it was difficult to see bow he could advocate the Sinking Fund. Last year the more enlightened principle had been fully admitted and established, that the surplus of the revenue applied to the discharge of the debt was the only legitimate Sinking Fund. He entertained no such feats as those expressed by the Hon. Member for Calling ton, who, be thought, had been rather hard on the Right Hon. Gent. in stating that he was the first Chancellor of the Exchequer who had taken away the credit of the country. He (Mr. Hume) was persuaded that if the Right Honourable Gentleman had gone further, _ _ . and had, according to his (Mr. Hume's) proposition, reduced two millions snore of taxation, he would have done mote to support public credit than by diminishing the debt to that amount. However, no taxes could have been more judiciously selected for reduction. Tue free sale of beer would be highly advantageous to the people ; and Le was persuaded that the night Hon. Gentleman had by no _. . 1 means over-estimated the benefit. In the article of leather I also, great advantages would result from the repeal of the tax. It would relieve the trade from the monopolists.. The regulations of the excise with respect to the leather trade were so severe that scarcely any one could escape, and the number of persons engaged in it watt, therefore, I very limited. The repeal of the tax would increase that ' number, and the public would benefit by the consequent competition. Still he thought the Right Hon. Gentleman might have gone a great deal further; and he perfectly agreed with his Noble Friend and the Hon. Member for Northampton, that the same amount of taxation which at present existed might be imposed with a quarter of the Ipressure on the people, if it were removed from articles of 11 productive industry. '1 he Noble Lord .(Althorp) had cor randy misumerstood the Chancellor of the Exchequer, for 1 the Right Hon. Gentleman was not averse to any change of taxes that might be beneficial. All lie had said was, that the subject had not entered into his present plan. He I (Sir. Hume) could not but contemplate that the Right j Hon. Gentleman would g i ve hi s ass i stance t o th e Hon. I Member for Dover, in his efforts to show what taxes could be reduced or repeal e d, a n d l a id on ot h er it ems w ith a v i ew I of benefitting trade, and alleviating the burthsns of the people. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had not said one word upon the important changes that might be made in this respect; but it was not to he inferred front that that he was averse to such changes. The Right Hon. Gentleman proposed for the present year to take off the duty on beer, to the amount of 750,0001., and on leather, to the amount of 100,000/.—making in both a relief of 950,000/. ; but there was to he an additional tax put on to the amount of 400,0001., so that the net reduction would be 550,000/. With this relief there would be left in the Treasury a surplus of 2,170,0001. So far from applying this amount of surplus, as the Honour able Member for Callington recommended, to the reduction of the Three per Cents., he ought to proceed, in the present state of the country, to give a relief to taxa tion to that extent. He held in his hand a statement of all taxation repealed since the termination of the war in 1816 ; but not including the 18,000,0001. repealed in 1816. Since that period there had been repealed (de ducting the 3,000,0001. added in 1819) 9,234,000/. ' This had been taken off between 1818 and 1825, and he would compare it to the results of receipts into the Ex chequer, in order to show that there could he no fear of a deficiency of receipts in the ensuing year owing to the reductions at this moment proposed. In 1817 the amount of taxation was 57,650,000/., and 9,234,0001. had been repealed. The revenue last year had been 55 , 9 00,000/., which, deducted from 57,650,000/., the revenue of 1817 showed a deficiency of 1,750,000/. ; and the House would thus see, that although 9,231,000/. of taxes had been repealed, it had only occasioned a deficiency of revenue to the extent of 1,750,000/. If, therefore, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had taken off more taxes this year, he yet might have expected a sufficient receipt next year to meet the whole of his reductions. The Right Hon. Gentleman did not sufficiently consider the si'uation of the country, or he would have given a more extensive and instantane ous relief than he had proposed ; and he had no difficulty in stating that he might have reduced a little more. The Right Hon. Gentleman ought to have taken off the coal tax of 500,0001, and the amount of the candle tax ; and not a poor man in the country who would not have been benefitted by this arrangement, fer coals and candles en tered largely into every man's expenditure; and the total relief of the two taxes would have amounted to 1,300,0001. He trusted that Government would make a further reduction in the military establishments, for the mount of the Estimares for the Army, Navy, and Ord- nance, was 16,580,000/., which was 500,0001. more than in the years 1821 and 1822. The Chancelior of the Exchequer had not taken credit for the savings of the expenses of collecting the revenue, which would have left a surplus of 1,500,0001. in the Treasury. lie was quite satisfied that more extensive relief could be afforded, and that it ought to be tasseled promptly ; and he had only to regret that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who had gone so far to meat the approbation GE the country (as far as any he remembered), should not have gone far ] , enough, and have trusted more to those chances of the revenue not being decreaied which he (Mr. Hume) had stated. He hoped that the Right Hon. Gentleman would i , snake an additional reduction of 2,000,000/. i n th e course ] of the Session. ` I i Mr. CHARLES BARCLAY said, that the beer tax added very materially to the price of the beer, and it was a serious evil to the country, and he v.,as very glad to see it removed. He should take the revsent opportunity of stating, that with respect to the resolutions upon the licens. ink system, he thought the measure now proposed would do away, in a great degree, with the objections which in dividuals concerned in the trade had felt to the former sys tem. In his opinion the exposition of the Right Hon. Gentleroan'was wise, and the country would not be dis appointed. The measure proposed would place the com munity on au equal footing, and the increased consumption of malt which would arise from the taking off the beer tax would satisfy the country gentlemen. The demand for barley had decreased in the last year, and he now hoped that it would increase to the benefit of the agricultural in terests. He was happy to say that he had not the least objection to the measure' proposed, and the: brewers had concurred in it.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. MABERLY—The Right Hon. Gentleman had ; stated to the House that there had been a surphis revenue of 2,700,000/., and that he would reduce it, by a repeal of taxes, to 2,000,000/: ; and the question that remained was, whether he bad applied himself to those taxes which it was most judicious to reduce. None certainly could be more beneficially reduced than the beer duty. This was a wise measure—one of principle —for the beer tax was • an unequal tax, it was an unjust tax, and therefore ought to be relieved. The neat T.,Auction was upon leather—a rate ' r v ial h l ie y tool which greatly enhanced th e p r i ce o f t h e art i cle, and i ' l the way of improvements in the trade. He now came to the question, whether in the subsequent , year there would be the loss of revenue which the Right Hon. Gentl e nia tt ha I expected ? The Hon. Member for , Callington seeeesi to think that the Chancellor of the ix chequer Was in error, in leaving only 2,000,0001. as a ba lance, for he apprehended that next year there would bs no such balance, and that consequently public credit would I T !injured. Ile (Mr. Alaherlv) thought there was no groam; I fel- this apprehensiou, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer !ought to have kept out of view all those arguments &lout la Siehing Fund, as ho had hitherto always declared them to be fdlats;eus. The. Right lion. Gentleman's balance ;of 2.000,000/. would be a much larger bone fide Sinking Fund than when it had been estimated at 15,000,0001. : and public credit would in future be higher than when the fallacy of the Sinking Fund had been kept up. The Right lion. Gent., he thought, was perfectly right in .raising the duties upon spirits, notwithstanding that this increase might have the effect of encouraging smuggling, with,all its demoralising effects ; for the use of spirits by the poor was still more demoralising ; and of the two evils the point was to choose the least. With reference to the Four per Cents. the Government would be wrong not to adopt such a measure at the present rate of interest ; but the question was, whether they ought to expedite the business. If any . war was likely to disturb the country, it would not s be fair to reduce the rates of interest ; lint in the absence of any such apprehension, it was perfectly fair. The Right Hon. Gent. was entitled to guard himself against an unfavour able harvest ; but he had not made a sufficient provision for the harvest being favourable. He was satisfied that the Right Hon. Gent's. Budget was the best he had ever seen, for the Right lion. Gent, had traveled over the whole business of taxation upon principle, and his speech had conveyed to him in very strong terms a desire to lock into every part of the expenditure during the recess, and to look into the superannuation, which of all things re quired the greatest attention upon the part of Government. The Right Hon. Gent. had told the House to anticipate next year a reduction of Estimates ; but he thought that the Right Hon. Gent. might have effected greater reduc tions in the present year. There was no pretence what ever to keep up 5,000 Marines, when it ha-I been stated by competent authority that 1,000 would be enough. A large proportion of the army might be reduced. With reference to the reduction of the debt, he would recom mend to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to attempt the plan of Mr. Brickwood, for he was convinced that it was the best mode of reducing a debt that could be suggested. Hs was sorry to say that gentlemen in that House would not vote for reductions, though they were always ready to vote for extravagant expenditure; and yet until the esti mates were reduced to a much lower scale, it was in vain to expect a larger reduction in the taxes. Mr. BERNAL could repose some confidence in the promises held out to the House by the Right Hon. Gen tleman, because he had not, like his predecessors, at tempted to mystify the subject, and he was not ashamed of acknowledging the situation of the country, when he held out the hope of affording it tellef. He well knew that the House hail a great many conflicting interests to satisfy, but considering all parts of the subject, he must be excused for saying that he had expected that the Right Hon. Gentleman would have been able to afford some little relief to the must suffering of all interests—the West India interests. He did trust that the Right Hon. Gentleman would he able to relieve some of the burthens under which .the colonial interests had so long suffered. With respect to the spirit duties, why could not the Right Hon. Gen tleman place the British and West India spirits on the saute footing ? The West India interests were at the lowest ebb possible. But why were not Irish and Seotch spirits put upon a footing with British and West India ? Three shillings were the duty upon spirits in Scotland and Ireland, whilst eight shillings was the duty upon ruin. This he thought was trenching upon justice. The West India interests were entitled to a reduction upon sugar, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not alluded to the subject. This certainly was not the time to enter into any details of time British West India interests, but the time would he soon afforded when he should have the opportu nity of explaining to the House the state of the question, and he hoped to convince all who heard him that the amount of duty collected by the Government upon sugar and rum was enormous, and that the state of properties in the West Indies was unable to ply the imposition, and to make any returns to the owners. If the present rate of duties were to continue the same for another year, the revenue would suffer; for the estates, he was fully con vinced, would be thrown out of cultivation. In the old Colonies—such as Jamaica—it was impossible to carry on the cultivation much longer. .In the new Colonies, where the soil was better, or less worked, it might be possible. He would make a statement to the House, which would show the necessity of the Government's attending to the subject. A West India estate, producing 150 hogsheads and 60 puncheons of rum—which was the fair propor tion—the amount of duty which Government derived would be 5,4001., whilst time amount of profit derived by the proprietor, after all his outgoings incidental to culti : vation, would be only 1931. He would ask the Chancel lor of the Exchequer if this were not a state of things de manding the attention of Government? Mr. Alderman THOMPSON felt, that no interest in the country was suffering more than that of the West India proprietors; but it appeared to him from the state ment of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that reductions could not be carried further than they had been carried. He could not but agree with the Hon. Member for Aber deen, that it behoved the Treasury to apply their reduc tions to those taxes that pressed most on the labouring classes. The time had arrived when taxation must be al tered—and he felt convinced that public opinion would be convinced that a tax upon capitol was the only way to re lieve the country from its distresses. He believed that much of the distresses of the country was owing to the extensive improvements in machinery ; and yet he knew well the advantages of machinery, and that the more extensively it was applied the more it advanced the wealth of the country; but it was necessary by a reduc tion of taxes to enable the labouring classes to cope with machinery. lie thought that the Stamp Acts ought to be consolidated and equalized. Upon marine assurances to Calais and Holland, for every 2s. Gd. paid on the policy the duty was flee shillings, and the consequence was that merchants did not assure at all, whilst wealthy As surance Companies had been established in France and Holland, where they had no such difficulties to cope with. A similar evil existed with respect to Fire Insurances. With reference to the reduction of the Four per Cents., the Governments of Europe were reducing their rates of in terest, anti if our Government had delayed the reduction, foreign capital would have flowed into England, and in an other year our Government might have reduced the in terest with greater advantage. - Mr. HUSKISSON was notgoing into the subject of the state of the country at that moment, as there was a notice of - motion for to-morrow, which would afford a better opportunity for entering upon suet; a discussion, and he intended to avail himself of it. If he rose upon this occa sign, it was because be could not deny himself the gratifi cation of expressing his approbation of the statement made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. lie admitted, how ever, that the gratification which he felt at that statement was not wholly unalloyed by considerations such as those alluded to by the Hon. Member fir Callington. Not, Low ever, that he thought it possible for any one to doubt that, under whatever circumstances of trial or difficulty, we should be enabled to maintain the public faith and the credit of the country untarnished. He thought, under all existing circumstances, the plan laid down by his Right Hon. Friend was the most expedient for the country, end that his statement of that evening was one which he, in common he Yeas sure with the House at large, had heard with unmixed satisfaction. If there was any drawback on that satisfaction, it could he only a difference of opinion as to the articles which his Right Hon, Friend had se lected for a reduction of duty. He said reduction when he should have said abolition—(Hear)—for he was glad that his Right Hon. Friend had resolved upon the total aboli tion instead of a partial reduction of the duties on beer and leather, as otherwise the benefits of a lessening of the taxes on those articles would not be felt by the public.— (Hear.)—He agreed with the Hon. Member for Ca'lington as to the advantages which might arise from converting the present permanent Four per Cent. Annuities into Five per Cent., or perhaps something higher annuities, for a definite number of years, hut he would reserve his opinion on the general merits of tl.e Hon. Member's proposition a w d l e ie g n ui t te the distress of the country, w i t h a v i ew to its relief, was substantively before the H ouse . With respect to what had been said about reducing the Four per Cents. to Three, or Three and a Half per Cents., lie begged leave to say, that he had more than once in that House advocated the principle of such a reduction, and had expressly stated, that Ministers would Lie guilty of a neglect of duty had they neglected to take advantage of such a state of public credit as would enable them to effect a practicable diminution of the public burdens: be W as sorry, however, to hear his Right H , un. Feiend asso ciate the proposition in any way with thestate of the foreign exchanges. lie thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer should not be regulated by exchanges which depended so much on contingencies in contt eatiog any loans necessary for the public service; that in fact lie should not borrow from any other party, not even the Bank of England, than the public; thus rendering himself indepeddent in the state of the exchange in foreign markets. He trusted that after all the suflintings of the country, in order to attain a solid improved currency, no measure would be sanctioned Icy the Gwitrnment, the tendency of which would be the locking up of capital in the coffers of the Bank of England—a re- stilt which would he consequent upon a reliance on foreign ~xehtogrs. With respect to .What had been said about puttipg an end to our present sinking fund system altoge ther in 1831. he thought it right to say that he was one of those who approved of the prieei ; dee of a sinking fund, that in fact he ii tight that there should he always a bona fide surplus of incom e over expenditure applied to the reduc • tion of the debt. Tee lee-met, of the country was collected tiepin so many somves of a contingent nature, that it would be impossible for any Minister to count on it, and the ex penditure being every year in exact proportion to each other, so that an actual annual surplus of income over ex penditure was necessary, not only for the purpose of re ducing the debt, but also for making our revenue and outlay square in an average number of years. lie thought that the sinking fund system, into which we had accidentally fallen, the very best Which could have been adopted under the existing circumstances of the country, and should therefore not only not wish to see it wholly abandoned, but should on the contrary wish to see it carried further into operation than it had been. He wished indeed that we had a sufficient surplus of income overexpenditure to carry into effect on a large scale the proposal St' the Hon. Mem her to which he had before alluded—namely, the convert ing some—he wished he could say 100 millions—of the permanent _Four per Cent. annuitants into life annuitants, at a certain increase, say one or cne and a half per cent. in crease. I-Ic thought such a measure would be the best and most efficacious triode of reducing the amount of the debt that could be acted upon consistently with the honour of the country, and he saw no objection agrinst its practica bility. There could be no difficulty, he thought, in its adoption, and he trusted the House and the Government would give, it a fair consideration, with a view to its being prectically acted upon with as little loss of time as pos sible. In his anxiety to see the amount of the debt re duced he would gladly encourage the passing of such a mea sure, while we possessed the means of effecting it advanta geously for the public. Dut, as he had stated, he shou'd state his opinion more fully on the subject when stating his views of the present distress of the country, of the causes and extent, which he thought had been much exaggerated, of that distress, and of other modes than those stated by his Right lion. Friend that evening, of 'educing the pub lic expenditure with a view to remedy it.—(Boar.) Sir C BURRELL addressed the House in a tone wholly inaudible in the gallery. From the remarks of the Hon. Member who succeeded him in the debate, we pre sume that he contended that the selection of beer for the abolition of duty was injudicious, as that duty appeared to hits not to be particularly onerous on the working classes. Sir T. ACLAND begged leave express his satiJac ion with the statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman, particularly with that part in which the abolition of the duty on eider was promulgated. He assured the Right Hon. Gent, that that abolition would be received with great satisfaction by his constituents—( Hear, and a laugh)— upon whom it, acted most onerously. He differed from the Hon. Member for Sussex (Sir C. Burrell) as to the oppressive - tendency of the present beer tax. He thought that it particularly pressed upon the poorer classes, contrary to the opinion of the Hon. Baronet, and that its abolition mould encourage the manufacture of good beer and at a cheap rate. He was glad also that the duty on leather was to be wholly reduced, the rather as no benefit accrued to the consumer of that article, either in harness or shoes, from the redaction of the half of that duty, which had been eff.cted a few years since. As the old proverb had it,— `• no good was ever done by halves,"—so he thought with reduced excise duties, no benefit could arise to the public from a half reduction, nor from any reduction that was not in effect a total abolition.—(Hear.) Lord MILTON agreed with the Hon. Member for Sussex (Sir C. Burrell), and he believed in doing so he was one of a very few in that House, that the beer tax abolition proposed by the Right Hon. the Chancellor• of the Exchequer, was injudicious. He thought that, for the re duction to be beneficial to the public at large, it should be made on malt instead of beer.—(Hear). The beer reduc tion could not much affect the landholder, certainly could not benefit him, neither indeed could that on malt. The reasons on which he should propose that the latter duty should: be that abolished instead of that on beer, were, in the first place, that the latter would be only a partially, or rather locally advantageous measure, while the former would be a general benefit. In many districts of the country, in that part of Yorkshire, for example, with which he was more intimately connected, the consumers of beer gene rally brewed for themselves ; to them therefore the pro posed reduction could he no benefit. In the next place, the reduction of the duty on beer, while that on malt remained as it was, would, as had been observed by the Hen. Member for Sussex, tend to throng public houses, and lessen the practice of home brewing. The very reverse he contended would be the effect of a reduction of the duty on malt, and therefore, were it only on that ac count, he should have much preferred it. He lamented that a measure of relief should have such an objec tion, and should only act advantageously in geogra phical sections. He approved entirely of the pro posed reduction of the ditty on leather. He agreed with what had fallen from the Hon. Member for Abingdon respecting the expediency of reducing the Four per Cents., and had only to hope, that if that mode of economy he adopted, that no attempts would be made to raise the price of stock, in order to enable the Government to carry it into effect. He also agreed with what had fallen from the Hon. Member for Callington respecting the holders of stock. That Hon. Member had shown from a paper which had been far a few days before the public, that the holders of stock were not, take them as a mass, those over gorged individuals which they had been invidiously repre sented, in order that they might be made the ♦ictims of a disgraceful project, but humble individuals, who had spent the morning and noon and mid-day of an industrious life in reaping a competence for the evening of their days. Mr. STEWART, as we understood, objected to the in tended increase of duty on Scotch whisky, as likely to lead to operate as a bounty on smuggling in the Highlands. Lord HOWICK agreed with the Hon. Member, that smuggling would he increased as the duty was augmented. The best plan, as it appeared to him, would be to raise the duty in Scotland—say 2s. a gallon, and lessen it in Eng land—at least leave it as it was. By that means the duty would be collected without detriment to the revenue, and smuggling would be discouraged. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER begged leave to say one word in explanation of a point which had been referred to by the Hon. Member for CallingtOn, and subsequently by the Right lion. Member for Liverpool. The Hon. Member seemed to intimate to the House that he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) contemplated that in 1831 he should have no surplus of income over expendi ture. He must have expressed Marta very differently to what he had intended if he had said any thing to Warrant such an inference. His line of argument was, that bough he could net predict that that surplus would be 3,000,0001., he still thought he might rationally look to—when he took the proposed reduction of the Four per Cents, and the other measures of economy of the Government, into account—a bona fide surplus of at least 1,500,000/.—a sum which a good harvest and improved circumstances of the country would raise still higher.—(Hear.)-11e took particular pains to impress this his view on the mind of Hon. Members, and regretted that a contrary impreszion had been made on the Hon. Member for Callington, and through him, perhaps, on the House at large. He hoped, however, that the House was then di•abused of its mis conception, and that be had set it right. With respect to what bad fallen from the Noble Lord (Howick) who spoke last, be begged leave to say, that he agreed with that Noble Lord, that the subject of duty on spirits, whether with a view to its reduction or increase, was one beset with diffi culties. He admitted that it was objectionable in principle that there should be one ditty in one country or county, and another in one immediately adjoining it; that this difference orduty opened the door to smuggling and other frauds on the revenue; but he contended that he brought a new enemy, a third antagonist, into the field against those evils, in abolishing the duty on beer, a beverage which he confi dently hoped would in time expel ardent spirits from the table of the industrious and poor classes, and with it those lawless habits which an appetite for it generated.—(Hear.) —With respect to the proposal of somewhat equalizing the ditties on Scotch whisky in the two countries, he was willing to admit that, so far as finance was concerned, it would be a most desirable measure ; but from the facilities which the north of Scotland afforded fur smuggling and illicitly preparing that spirit, and the tastes and habits of the Highlander, it was deemed expedient to adopt the pre sent scale of duty. e.,zaiisr l seo r is . ,:rie ß ot:,B., : ‘ l o: R lEufe l its N dhie t: toili:ev x i v aHi a l.al s toru s l o s:pe( r e).. l; :o y :tll: i G f c h n e tie l m m a d n n t l o is i e b o t nce d i e v g e r d ee t b h e e had stated, and should feel much o blig eH ed xopina. t n o aG l t i i ; eo m n:tioe a fi s ntah li n e e isd u fill::n. o rirtd : P l tl . ille:uoi' G s;shl e ialhia( i nit t s: l "l , B . m' m cie3irlep l elae t a,nttihi s i)o'no i nngr ii .d),toeahft.l4eaj,D e ut:bi l df i e)i o nit k lahiaal e sinies3l ; lC::.l: f ßl: ( le ) nitcsi i 3rig • tu'r ‘ e: v heliv • alf a l't;t r 'iii. C lio l b'-usnie t ero?'l t (fe: l tt l :l e l'lrd°lß. i :hl o circumstances of the country,iiu tpiaiertiletuiglairltlybtLt.l.Gbenentleefimcaianl Isevtfiri,eaieciitig:eorhyf-eafoger:gmopttei:ltt'eah,rn:te:aotg;doeordiveharfrvoesnr: the e d t i l: n a p t or in tat t i h o e n o f de gree of its griminess, would sweep away all the revenue foreign corn. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER eon tended that his estimate of the revenue 1831 w a matter of calculation, as much to he tiepended 'upon as that for 1830 or any other year. Mr. D. W. HARVEY begged leave, as one who was in the best sense of the term a representative of the people, to express on their part his satisfaction at the proposed abolition of duty on three of the articles of life which bore chiefly upon the industrious poor. He would not augur the extensive benefits which some Hon. Members seemed to expect front those redactions, nor from the 3,000,0001. of taxes. certainly a ltrge concession to public opinion, which the Right Hon. Chancellor of the Exche quer had counted ;,bout, but still he received them with applause, as an index of a better system of the public expenditure. He could not, for example, admit that the reduction of the tax on beer would increase the growth of in:A awl hops, and therefore could not approve of a re duction which might tend perhaps to deteriorate the qua- ID) , of beer by increasing its quantity without a corre spondent increase of the .materiels—malt and hops—of that beer, an increase which could only be effected by a reduction of the duty on those article,. But little good would be effected by what Ministers proposed, and little would be done to ameliorate the coalition of the people of this country, unless a free trade were allowed in corn, lie gave Ministers every credit for the measure which they pro . posed for the reduction of the Four per Cents., nor did he suppose that any intention existed on their part to eleleut from the terms of the contract with the fundholder. The fundholder here beside had his remedy, for it was open to Trim to sell out it h e f e lt an y objection to the proposed ar rangement; but really he (Mr. Harvey) thought that these terms were rather hard as regarded the public, for the public wool.! be obliged, under smelt circumstances, to pay 100/. for only 601. that had been originally lent. In private concerns, if a man borrowed 1,060/,, upon an en gagement to pay afterwards, whenever called upon by the lender, 2,0001., be was sure that the Courts of Equity in this country would relieve that individual from such a con tract, on the ground of its being fraudulent. He hoped Ministers would endeavour to lower the stock, if the y could, when the public was obliged to adhere to such a bargain. He thought that the reduction of taxes ought to be carried. He was of opinion that, in order to afford substantial relief to the country, the reduction ought to be carried to 10,000,000/. or 12,000,000 L, and an equitable property tax laid on to meet whatever deficiency such re duction might occasion. He gave Miniaers every credit for economy, but their dispositio n was not permitted to go in that way further than theory, for in every step they were met by a counteracting influence in Parliament. The resolutions were then put and agreed to, and the House having resumed; the report was ordered to be re ceived to-morrow (this clAy.) EAST RETFORD. Sir N. CALVERT moved the Order of the Day fur the bird reading of the East Retford Bil!. Mr. HOBHOUSE said ke had repeatedly voted against he Bill, with the view of giving the franchise to some ex :cnsive manufacturing town, and having failed in attaining :hat object, it was only left to him to oppose the Bill itself, which he looked upon as a complete deception. He should, therefore, move as an amendment, that the Bill be read that day six months. Mr. HUME would support the amendment of the Hon. Member for Westminster.—( Cries of" Divide—Question.") Mr. Alderman WAITIDIAN said, ho would detain this House only for a few moments. Seeing the Attorney- General in his place, and as there had been very recently a criminal prosecution at the suit of that Learned Gentle man against the electors of the borough of Stockbridge, he (Alderman Waithman) would take this opportunity to give notice that he should move for the ininutss of the J u dg e upon that occasion, and for a copy of the indictment. Sir ROBERT WILSON said he had voted upon several occasions for giving the franchise which was dis posable here to the town of Birmingham, but as he bad not succeeded in that, he thought it better to have this Bill than to allow the franchise to remain in this corrupt boroughs alone. He should, therefore, vote against the amendment of the Hon. Member for Westminster, anti in f :your of the Bill for extending the franchise to the hun dred of Ihoactlaw. Mr. TENNYSON rose amidst great confusion, anti cries of " Question," " Question." He was, he said, merely desirous to state, that the amendment of the lion. Member for Westminster was intended, in the event of its being carried, to give the House another opportunity of doing that which the country called upon it to do— namely, to transfer the franchise in this instance to some large town. He therefore hoped the amendment .would have the support of the lion. Member for Southwark. The House then divided, when there appeared__ For the m0ti0n,...164 j Against it, ...SS I Majority 81. The Bill was then read a third time. On our return to the gallery, we found Mr. O'CONNELL on his legs, moving, as an amend ment, that the poll should be taken here by ballot, and also the insertion of a clause specifying the mode ln,which the ballot s h ou ld b e ta k en . Th e avowed ostensible object of this Bill was to prevent bribery and corruption in the borough of East Retford, and the way in which that wag proposed to be effected was by increasing the number of voters. He did not see how such a remedy would cure the acknowledged evil which existed in this instance, and if such a remedy were efficient, ke should certainly like to see the standard ascertained as to the given number of voters which would prevent bribery and corruption in boroughs of this description. Now he (Mr. O'Connell) would propose a really efficient measure for preventing bribery and corruption for the future in this borough. He should propose that the poll be taken by ballot, and he had a clause besides specifying the manner in which ho should propose to have the ballot taken. This was the only effective measure IT putting an end to bribery and cor ruption in this borough. By means of voting by ballot the voter was secured against the exercise of undue influence in the shape of terror or corruption, and he could vote honestly and sincerely for the man whom he considered the fittest and best qualified to be elected. This landlord, if he wished to influence the voter by terror, or was afterwards desirous to punish him for voting against his (the landlord's) in terest, had no means of coming at him, for he never could ascertain the aide upon which the elector had voted. In that way, too, the motive for giving a bribe was removed altogether, for the man who would then take a bribe never could prove afterwards that he had earned the money, faishe was himself alone cognisant of the mode in which he had disposed of his vote. The proof, then, that he had earned the bribe would depend upon his credit for veracity, and the man who would take a bribe would scarcely hesitate to tell a falsehood. This mode of elec tion left in complete operation all the just and legitimate influence that ought to exist upon the minds of the votent, and it removed the unjust and corrupt influence that it was acknowledged upon all hands should be destroyed. It did away with all the motives of terror or apprehension that were called into action to influence the voters at elections. These were the advantages of the mode of election which he proposed to establish in this borough. Here was an opportunity of making an experiment, and of bringing the principle into play, and trying whether it was a right one. Should he be told that the ballot did not preclude bribery and corruption? Still it was not worse, on that account, than the present system. It was objected that the mode of taking votes by ballot would preclude representatives con fronting their constituents; but it was not till after nomina tion and the demand of a poll that the ballot would commence, so that this mode would nut take away from constituents the power they now enjoyed of asking for pledges in future and explanations of past conduct. This process would take place before the ballot. It was said, that the b.liot was a sneaking thing ; but a man who sneaked at the ballot would be a slave or a hypocrite at the vote. Let all such sneaking and unmanliness fall upon the individual; the House ought not to interfere about it. He had beard, and lie regretted to hear it said in that House, that landlords zti had a right to demand th e vot es o f th e i r t enan t s . 1-f de nied it: a man might as w e ll b e bl ac k ene d an d - sen t t o the colonies, if he was such a slave as t o b e o blig e d, to give his said,vot vote for that l'is elections landli rd' w w e i r l e et a h t e t r enalod hewi w ll i P tli r r'rt - ting i hid nti midation. been _ midation. The ballot would prevent. this : an ele c t or would be saved frOth the temptation of bribery; and front the terror of a riotous mob. He (Mr. O'Connell) knew that at that late hour, and coming from such an insignifi cant individual as himself, with, the axed opinions lie was known to hold on this subject, his motion might not be popular; but in a land of common sense, he 'trusted that a plan which did away with influence, bribery, and cor ruption, would not be rejected. Some of those who gave money for seats in that House might notwithstanding be very disinterested persons ; but others might look to a re turn of advantages. He was the representative of an un- • corrupted and an un i nt i m id ate d people, and lie called upon all such person s i n t h e H ouse to support his proposition.— (Cries o f " Questiou, question.")—The Hon. and Learned Member then proposed a clause, directing the Winning officers at an election, when a po!l tray required, to tale the poll by ballot. Mr. HUME seconded the motion. No questions had occupied the tine of the House more uselessly tl•an mea sures for punishing places gui!ty of corruption. Any plan therefore, which etiabied voters to avoid improper in fluence would best answer the piirposes of the House. This mode would completely /feet an object which re peated Acts of Parliament had in vain attempted. As to the derogation which it would occasion to the national character, in America there were 260,000 votes given for the President, and all the public officers were e:ezted by !Dm , ' Corti' tun , :tent 'ion, ,efall ;nn ever, of Feat r in- e I the rt of per • hays term tioag ,ere t the d to onS; !ring right r the !due was they look same de , di- Ed in ad !due- not f this pears ad by ig no addi- mit of ; and war.) now nts, 1 ill be 3 this a boo Amer- I cco-• g any r taX., rely .ted to de or ten tv main- which pro )ssible very eer— gene- lave & which ue.