The Sun. — London, England, 1831-10-11 00:00:00

—(Cheers.) It was a weapon of weight and temper which ought to have been irresistible in the hand, but as soon as they obtained it, they hung it up to ust.— (Cheers.) It is an atrocious law—yet it lies in fact as innoxious on our statute-book as if it was inscribed in the Code Napoleon. There was no difficulty in obtaining this law—it was easy to procure it from a subservient Parliament. They could pass, but they could not employ this law. They could not—they durst not employ it against the voice of a refractory people.—(Hear, hear.) These, Sir, are specimens of the u-elessness of law, unless supported by the people. But I think the Reform Bill would remove this anomaly, and I consider the rejection of it would increase all the evils of which I have com plained to a tremendous—to a portentous extent. Id o not anticipate any thing approaching .to an attempt a t re volution, or the open display of sedition—but I f ear th at the people will use the same kind of obsti na t e s il ent resistance by means of which they have mitigated, I might say abrogated, the libel law.—(Hear, hear.) The veto of the people (though not so loudly uttered as that of the Roman tribune) does yet meet the rulers at every turn--(Hear, hear)--until at length impassive re sistance shall be so prolonged, and the hands of the Go vernment will be so weakened, that it shall not be possible to preserve the peace at home, or sustain the national honour abroad—until the public faith and credit shall have become a by word and a reproach, and misery shall have followed fast upon misery until sage, quiet men, who for merly never dreamt of revolution, would pray that the dread, lingering agony might terminate in one short, sharp crisis.—(Hear, hear.) I believe, however, that if the House of Commons does its duty, there is no danger to be apprehended. All will be secure and quiet, if we declare our intense anxiety in favour of Reform is undiminished, and that we will not support any Ministry which will not support Reform.-(Cheers.) By this, Sir, I am well assured we may avert the calamities which now gather around us. I fear if we do not take this advantage, which now presents itself to us, the people may fall into the hands of had and faithless advisers—men whom nature only intended for the public contempt, but which circumstances have made the public fear—who are thrown forward into stations they should never occupy, by the hesita tion of the better and more honourable portion of mankind to put themselves forward. It is beautifully expressed in the Hebrew fable, in the book of Judges :—" When the trees went forth upon a time to anoint a King, and the olive tree, because of its fatness, and the fig tree, for its sweetness, and the vine tree, for its wine, which cheered God and man, refused to reign over them, and, at length, in their desertedness, they elected the bramble—the meanest shrub—and from it came out the fire which devoured the cedars of Lebanon."—(Loud cheering.) When, in for mer times, the villeins burned to the ground the houses of the Nobility—when the most direful barbarities were committed, 100,000 men assembled at Blackheath, and, while they were yet indignant for their leader, whom they had just lost by a most atrocious crime, anxious for some othtr who might lead them forth to blood and plunder, the King rode up to them and said, I am your leader. The infuriated multitude laid down their arms—they submitted to his guidance, and dispersed at his command.—(Cheers, long continued.) Let us imi tate the King— let this House of Commons be the point 01 union. If we are afraid—if we know the people will gratify their wishes by unlawful means—let us pledge ourselves that our ancient privileges, so often successfully employed in the confli,t against tyranny, will be 11961 iu their behalf—(Loud cheering)—and I would tell the people that the House of Commons constitutionally pos sesses a power which, if promptly exercised in their cause, must prevail.—(Cheers.) On the same ground I would say that the House should do its duty ; its interest is to assure the country there should be no unncessary delay. But even while I speak the irrevocable moments are fly ing, pregnant with great events—pregnant with the des tinies of a mighty empire.—(Cheers.) The issues of great events are in our hands. The life and death of the State—the honour and interest of this noble people, which we all should love, are at our disposal. There is one way to save England ; we know that way. Let us this night vote for its safety, glory, and prosperity, and thus propitiate cur own consciences—the memory of the future time, and the Judge of all hearts.--(Loud cheers.) Sir C. WETHERELL—Sir, I cannot rise to addres, you without at once offering my humble tribute of applause to the eloquent and masterly speech of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who has just concluded.—(Hear.) I am sure that all in this House will agree with me in saying that that lion. and Learned Gentleman cannot rise to address you without delivering a speech that will end in producing the cheers of all around him. It is impossible for him not to extort front even those who disagree from him that sincere tribute of applause which must be ex pected to be drawn forth by eloquence, by flights of fancy, and by illustrations of reasoning such as have flowed from the lion. and Learned Gentleman.—(ilear.) His speech has produced such genera', as well as such loud and triumphant expressions of applause, that if it were not for the political arguments he has used, both sides of the House might equally attribute to themselves the expression of them.— (Hear, hear.) I feel, therefore, Sir, that lam labouring under a disadvantage in rising 'to speak after the Hon. and Leaned Gentleman. I must, however, do so, in order to take the earliest opportunity of expressing my opinion on this motion. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman stated, that he would follow the example of moderation set him by the Noble Lord ; and if he had done so it would have been well; for the Noble Lord allowed his principle and his precept to be so intimately mixed with his practice, that with the exception of one or two accidental words, it did appear to tne that no gentleman on this side of the House could say he had violated his own rules.— (Hear, hear, hear.) And when the Noble Lord pro pos( d to consider this question in a tone of proper mode ration, he turned in a precatory style to those mound him, and admonished his lion. Friends to follow his example. I do not complain that my Hon. and Learned Friend de parted from this rule; but sure I am, and I think that these who heard my Hon. and Learned Friend's speech must concur with me in the assertion, that in that power ful eulogy which he poured forth upon the Ministers in those bursts of eloquence that were responded to by the cheers of all around him, he was forcible, Le was eloquent —his speech, in short, had every merit but the merit of moderation.—(Cheers. ) For of all speeches, one less con ducive to the production of moderation—less conducive to the production of those conciliatory results which it is the object of all moderate men to attain—one less calculated to allay excitement—(Hear)—to carry the sedative conci liatory consequences that would make this side of the Ilouse say to the other, "We do not agree with you in principles or in results, but let us employ moderation in our discussions,"—one less addressed to the purposes of conciliation, and one more addressed to the purposes of ex citement, I never heard pronounced. It was a speech tending not only to produce excitement and irritation, but unneces sarily tending to produce them, because in the resolution of the Noble Lord there was nothing to warrant it. The Noble Lord said lie would not go into these subjects ; but my Hon. and Learned Friend said in fact, though not in worth, my only mode is not to adhere to the principles of the Reform Bill, but to travel out of that, and out of the House of Commons, and to enter upon subjects that will not only produce excitement in the House of Com mons, but will produce ten times worse excitement out of doors. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had said, " I hope the Government will preserve the peace." I hope so too ; hut I must say, that his speech was little addressed to it. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said, ' I hope the Government will be firm." His language is language calculated to make them firm—firm at least in the pursuit of the object he advocated. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said, "I hope the Government will maintain the laws." That wish, however, does not seem to be heard in the latter part of his speech, Which, as far as was consistent with the forms of Parliament, was, throughout, an excitation to a breach of the laws. Then, says the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, we have an allegory of the plants meeting to choose a King; and bespeaks of the olive branch that accompanied that election, although, as he says, the bramble was elected the King. If I were to reverse the parallel, I should say, that the calls upon the people who are to make this election, are only calls for misrule, excitation, and peacebreaking..—(liear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman deprecates all this ; lie deprecates, he revokes, he abjures anything tending to ex citement ; but in abjuring the thing he uses expressions that forcibly recall it to the mind, and he eloquently de precates that which in his arguments he seems most to in culcate. He recommends peace-making. Do the Mini sters adopt this peace-making ally? Does the Noble Lord at the head of the Government ? Does the Attorney_ General ? Does the Hon. Member, the representative of the Secretary for th e H ome Department ? Will t h ey, I say, adopt the peace-making recommendations of the Hon. and Learned General on his conciliatory principles ? What ore those principles ? He has told us that there was the Catholic Association in Ireland, and that by violence the Catholics ultimately triumphed, as he says. What, I ask, is the moral of that ? 'What, but that he pronounces a hope for peace, and at the same time gives an instance of en c ._ cesaful violence? He tells the people, in fact, not to be lieve what he says, but to do what the Catholics have done before, and to make a grand fac simile of their A s _ sociation.—(Hear, hear.) My Hon. and Learned Friem. again, pursuing the same course of moderation in terms so as to he within the rules of this House says, that he does not wish the people to resist the payment of taxeq; hut at the same time, he who would not of course wish to lead them to erroneous conclusions, has told us what will happen if the Reform Bill is out passed, for he says that the tax-gatherer would be resisted.—(Hear, hear.) I should like to have heard from my Hon. and Learned Friend a little correction of the recommendations to that gross mis demeanour —the resistance to the payment of taxes. He does not advise them to do this, but he does not tell them not to do it ; he does not condemn it—he leaves it with an unrepre hended, hut indefinite recommendation.—( Hear.) My Hon. and Learned Friend (fur such I must call him) pursuing again the same subject, refers to the Press. He says that we cannot controul it. He does not, indeed say to the Press—go on publishing your libels as you have done ; but he does not condemn that Press—that seditious Press, which recently recommended to the army mutiny, which recently advised the people to resist the tax-gatherer, and which denied to those who in this and the other House of Parliament were opposed to its doctrines the right to exercise their undoubted privi leges as independent Members of the Legislature.—(Hear, hear.) He does not, indeed, say to this Press, go on pursuing that line of conduct ; but he comes to a conclu sion which is very much like it; for he says, you cannot controul its publications—it has a right to publish, and it will go on publishing. Ido not say that by this he means to excite the Press to continue these publications; I know he makes a distinction between them ; but the people do not, out of doors, take those nice Parliamentary distinc tions to which we are accustomed; he does not, inde,d, adopt the principle that the Press should go on in these at tacks, but he pats the principle on the back, and gives it a negative sort of encouragement. These are the principal topics introduced by my Honourable and Learned Friend in following the Noble Lord, for the purpose of proving that he adopted the recommendation of the Noble Lord to employ moderation in this discussion. My Honourable and Learned Friend has alluded to the times of violence when a certain King came to this House and extracted from it five or six Members„ and he has referred to that act as the most unconstitutional. I will put the converse of that proposition, and I will say, that it will be almost as unconstitutional for the King to go to the other House of Parliament and put twenty or thirty Members into it.—(Hear, hear.) Was it violent, was it unconstitutional, to abstract some Members from this House for having voted in a certain way.—(Hear.) The question is no sooner put than we receive it with ac clamations, affirming that it was most unconstitutional. I follow out the principle, and I boldly assert that if a Prince of the House of Brunswick puts thirty Members into the other House of Parliament to overrule the pro ceedings of that House, he will be guilty of an inter ference as unconstitutional as the violence for which a Prince of the House of Stuart has been so strongly con demned.—(Cheers from the Opposition, and cries of " No, no," from the Ministerial benches.) They say, No: so that it appears I have not had the good fortune to con vince them of the truth of my opinion. But as there are two sides, though I may not have conviucd them, I have convinced myself that every thing I have put forward has bet n fair and constitutional.—(Hear, bear.) The Hon. and Learned Member then observed that his Hon. and Learned Friend did not like the principle of combinations among the people—he did not like the idea of the people of Staffordshire marching to London ; but, bating these insurrections, and loving peace, and wishing to keep 100 miles from the mention of Jeck Cade's name, yet he could not abstain from referring to a former time, when the operatives marched up to the metropolis against a law which was not so important as the Reform Bill, and he recommended a Prince of the House of Bruns wick to put himself at the head of the people. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman might go back to these distant times if he pleased ; but he need not go so far back, for the case was not yet de cided of a citizen King putting himself in the hands of the operatives and joining one of the branches of the Legislature against the other. The question was not yet decided whether the citizen King of the revolution of the year 1831 would be able to carry on the Government without demolishing all the solid, rational, and consistent part of the Constitution.—(Hear, hear.) It must he ad mitted, indeed, that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had been eloquent, but it must also he admitted that his discretion had been in the inverse ratio of his eloquence. While these topics of the non-payment of taxes were under discussion, the Hon. and Learned Attorney-General was present : if the law was not what the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had compared it to—a rusty nail, be would set himself in motion. Was it true that this non-pay ment of taxes had beeu the subject of discussion ? lie believed it bad, and he was sorry that the doctrine had not been denied by high authority. He should Lave liked to have heard from the highest source of legal audio' ity— from the highest Judge of the land—something upon this subject. He meant to assert, that where there was a ' conspiracy to refuse the payment of taxes, there was a crime of a higher kind than some of the peace-making ' gentlemen opposite imagined.—(Hear, hear.) If gen tlemen would but look into the works of Foster, Bale, and other great legal and Constitutional writers, they would find that these assemblies to rob the King of money voted by the Parliament were not a bit by bit question almost amounting to a breach of the peace, as it had seemed to be considered in another place. Those men were no lawyers, who, if non-payment of taxes was combined with circumstances of conspiracy, would not say that it was an offence far advanced in the scale to wards high treason.—(Hear, hear.) He could hardly have imagined there would have been so touch said out of doors upon this subject, or he would have come armed with his authorities for his assertion. Did the House know the sort of publications that had been issued on this subject? He (Sir C. Wetherell) had had put into his hands a pamphlet, with a portrait of his Noble and Learned Friend the Lord Chancellor; it was a bad portrait —but it was a portrait prefixed to his speech on this ques tion. It was right to publish his speech, and the cheaper the rate at which such speeches were circulated, and the more they were ventilated—(Much laughter)—through the country the better.—(Hear, hear.) He, however, complained not that it had been so ventilated, but that a note had been appended to it in such a way, that unless looked at most carefully, it might be taken for part of the speech itself. The note was this—" God grant that all this may be right; Inv, depend on it, that the watchword will now be ' pay no taxes.' " He repeated, that unless the sword of the Attorney-General was in fact the rusty iron it had been compared to (though it had ever and anon been proved a sword sharp enough), these were publica tions that did require the attention of his Hon. and Learned Friend. He would not say that the Attorney-General would neglect his duty in permitting these publications to go unreprehended and unnoticed ; but he would go the length of stating to the Attorney-General, that if the language used in that House, bold and unlimited as it might be by the latitudinarian nature of their forms of debate, was thus permitted to be exceeded out of doors, the law was, indeed, a dead letter. It was quite true that the British public were not to be governed by the sword—but they were by the laws; and one of those laws was, that the recommendation of peace-breaking, of tumult, of risings against the Government, of non-payment of taxes, was an offence which, by a slight limit alone, was out of the pale of treason. He had now stated briefly the object for which he had risen, which was to declare that he could not support the resolution moved lay the Noble Lord. That resolution involved two main prin ciples; the first was, the House had full confidence in the present Administration ; the next was, the declaration of its continued adhesion to the Reform Bill. He could support neither of these. As to the continued adhesion to the Reform Bill, it must fo!low that, after the discus sions in which be had borne a part in opposition to that Bill, he could not possibly support it, unless tie gave 'way to those risings, those tumults, those excitements, which had been occasioned by it. He could not, therefore, sus tain that branch of the resolution which asserted the pro priety of the principle of the Reform Bill. He did not rest there—his opposition to it was strengthened and con firmed by the discussions that had taken place elsewhere; for in those discussions had spoken a " preternatural man"—(A laugh)—on one side; but he could quote the opinions of that preternatural man—that man whose in tellect went out of this world to a certain extent— upon the other side of the question. That preterna• tural man, whose intellect was not confined inter jia mantia nicenia muncli, had written a composition, in which he said that the principle of disfranchisement was one which he did not agree to. The letter to which he referred had been printed in all the papers, though it was said to have been surreptitiously obtained The Noble and Learned Lord, in that pamphlet, had said, that if disfranchisement went beyond a certain extent, there must be a compensation.—(Hear, hear.) That was, then, one of his principles. In another part he said, alluding to the impurities of the Parliament, that they must be removed bit by bit; but now he said that this alterative course must not he pursued. At that time, iowever, he had said, " We hays the machinery already, let us improve it, if we can, before we break up the ma chine, and try to form another on a principle the opera tions of which must necessarily be unknown."—(Hear.) In another part they were recommended not to deal too much in generals, but that course had not been followed iin had declared presentoccasio n , deelaredtheirs ntim w e h n e t sentiments ii s l ve o n n t e y w - twenty-four t l h i:su ey r , s v aer men e f r t ecalled on to turn upon their heels and pursue a different course. To expect them to do that was to ask them to expose themselves to ridicule, and to subject to question the sin cerity of their own opinions. The Noble Lord had paid a most well deserved compliment to the character, talents, and judgment of a Noble Earl in another House, anal was he (Sir C. Wetherell) to be called on to change his opinion—not because that Noble Earl bad supported a different view of the question from himself—but because he had had the good fortune to have his own opinion fully borne out by the eloquent arguments of that Nobl e Earl.—(Hear, hear.) Again, the Noble Earl at the head of the Government had not always supported a measure of Reform like that which he now brought forward ; and yet, though his opinions had not always been the same that they were now, the House were called on to support the latter without consideration of what were the former opinions of that Noble Earl. Why, even the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack—the preternatural Lord Brougham and Vaux—had admitted that the 101. clause was not a child of his own begetting. Lord EBRINGTON rose to order, observing, that it was not fair to allude to the recent speeches in Parliament. The SPEAKER said, the Hon. and Learned Gentle man was out of order in the last allusion he made ; and he must feel, that if the House of Commons defended their own privileges from being dealt with by the other House, they could have no right to interfere with the pri vileges of that House. Sir C. V,' ETHERELL admitted the correction ; and, after some remarks on the subject, asserted that it was no torious the Noble and Learned Lord had asserted that it this was not his Bill. There was now a strange unani mity among them on the Bill. The united conscience of the united Cabinet had required only six months tobe sub mitted to the crucible, before there was a perfect amalga mation of all the various opinions composing it ; though, within that time, there had existed among them as perfect discrepancy—some of them have been supporters of Mr. Canning, the most decided Anti-Reformer that ever lived. It was too much, however, for them to expect from their opponents the same convenient or consci entious change of opinion. The Noble Lord opposite must remember the Honourable and Learned Lord now on the Woolsack. He once in that House sarcasti cally eulogized a Cabinet of a tesselated nature, with one row of black and one of white, and one of a neutral colour between. The same sort of eulogy would apply to the present united and unanimous Cabinet, composed, as it was, of violent Reformers, Anti-Reformers, and the neu tral colour between them. He now came to the call for the adhesion of that House to the Ministry on account of their repeal of the candle and coal duties. With respect to the coal duties, he believed that the repeal would be nefit all the people concerned except the purchasers; and that, consequently, an important branch of the revenue had been taken off without an adequate advantage to the public. The Noble Lord had spoken too of the candle duties; but he had avoided alluding to the Budget, for it was such a complete wreck, that not a plank was left— not a steam-boat could be saved from it.—(A laugh.) One would suppose from the speech of the Noble Lord, that the country had no foreign relations ; for with what confidence could any one ask that House to sup port the Ministry with regard to their foreign rela tions ? He would not allude to !nose than two things. The first was that of Belgium : while the Government here was scheduling towns and boroughs in England, there were other persons scheduling fortifications in Bel gium. Much was wanted to be explained on that sub ject. Of Portugal not one word had been said, and as to Greece, one would think that there had been no such country since the time of Miltiades. He asserted that Por tugal] had been sacrificed to France. He asserted that the interests of Portugal had been sacrificed to those of France, and bad been sacrificed in the most impolitic manner. He had thus briefly stated his reasons for not placing con fidence in his Majesty's present Ministers. He had for gotten to mention one subject, namely, that of the Game Bill, which the Noble Lord had added by way of postscript to his speech. He thought it was premature in the Noble Lord to give them credit for that measure, as a wise and sound part of the legislation of the Government, for there had not yet been time to observe its operation. On the whole, lie thought this resolution unnecessary. If the Government meant to renew the Bill, why did they not do it at once?—(Mr. HOME, " They will !") He was not be fore aware that the Hon. Member knew so well the se crets of his Majesty's Government as to speak in that man ner of their intentions. He had stated his own senti ments on this question, and lie believed that those around him entertained sentiments of a similar nature. The Noble Lord had done what he could to conciliate their favour able opinions and secure their votes, by the manner in which he had brought the question forward ; but excel lent as the Noble Lord's manner was, it would not make him adopt the motion.—(Hear.) Mr. SHEIL said, that they lately inquired what the Lords would do? We have now to ask what ought the House—what ought the Minister—and (it is the most important interrogatory) what will the people do? First, then, what ought the House to do? Shall it transfer its confidence from the Government to their opponents— from those who may be well accounted the parents of Re form, to those who would affect to rock, and toss, and dandle it with the hand with which they would have strangled it in its birth ?_(Hear, hear.) Try them not by their professions—but by their proceedings: by their deeds—anal not by their phrases. Let us look for a mo ment back : the retrospect may be traversed with a glance. Much of the mystery of Toryism may be com prised in a singl e word. Potent and comprehensive name, famous in the topography of corruption, renowned and ever-memorable East Retford! with what a ready articu lation it drops from the tongue ; but what a train of re collections and of anticipations it lets into the mind. It recalls occasions lost—opportunity madly and sinf u ll y thrown away—the nobl e st game played with the falsest hand. Warning was given to pride—admonition to power— i remonstrance was addressed to niatuation.— Vainly did reason, justice, policy—vainly did Hus kisson adjure them. Then it was that the extremities to which we have arrived were foretold—then it was that the Sybil was for the first time dismissed then it was that they were told to listen to the muttering s , and to mark the flashes of that cloud which had even then begun to overspread the political horizon, and which was mistaken for the vulgar smoke by which the factories of Manchester and of Birmingham were overhung. Then it was that a clue was afforded to the real feelings of those whose sincerity is so elaborate, and whose frankness is so ostentatious; and the means were afforded of plucking the mask from fraud—of uncloaking imposture—and of dis robing disingenuousness of its disguise.—(Hear, hear.) You that affect to be advocates of Reform nosy, what did you do then.—(Cheers.) In reply to all your promises, professions, and all your vehement protestations in favour of that vague and indefinite thing which you call Reform, it is but necessary to whisper that East Retford in your ears, which remorse should sculpture in your hearts. H e would pass to the second great epoch in the annals of Toryism. The great Captain—he who seemed, like the Roman conqueror, to have set up the statue of Victory in the Senate-house, and to have overshadowed his adminis tration with the amplitude of its wings, uttered a single minded sentence, and the whole fabric of his power, having no base in the public confidence, left not a wreck behind. England swept the Ministers away. The King called to his Councils a man who had given a pledge to Re form in his youth, and was resolved to redeem it in his matures age. Lord Grey selected as his delegate a Nobleman whose whole life was in conformity with the principles which are inculcated by his imperish able name. It required some of the imperturbable calm which results from a just tenacity to an honour able purpose, to have stood unmoved amidst the bursts of alternating anger and of derision, with which his unimpassioned and fearless expositions were an nounced. What the Treasury scoffed, the English people hailed._with a bold ness t h at requ i red no ord i nary intre pidity of asseverati on ; i t was averre d that t h e nat i on d id not desire Reform; to this assertion the Ministers deter mined to give a practical refutation. The King went down, amidst the acclamations of his people, to his Par liament, and to vindicate the rights of the one he dissolved the other.—(Hear, hear.) There was outcry, and clamour, and vociferation, and then came the booming of the cannon, which was but the precursor of that voice of thunder that called from one extremity of the island to the other. The elections came. England, from her hustings, shouted for Reform. There we again assembled. We were then told that popular phrenzy had succeeded to public apathy, and that the people, who before were lethargic, were driven mad. We were told too, as a matter of reproach, that we were pledged. Pledged ! Is it a crime in those who have covenanted to discharge their trust, to declare it ? And by whom was the objection urged? By many, whose po litical being is breathed into them by those who made them according to their own images—by men, who cannot be true to England without being false to friendship, and must elect between perfidy to their patrons and treason to their country. He should pass over the several incidents that marked the progress of the Bill. It wan, at least, carried in this House with every circumstance of triumph. It went up, as a message from the people, to the Lords, and by the Lords it was contumeliously repudiated. In the debates in that House, and in the debates in this, it was remark able that not one of all these who professed to be converts to Reform, of all the venerable neophytes upon whom a new light had suddenly and miraculously broken, there was not one who carne forward, lie would not say With a specific plan, but even with a mere outline or sketch for the correction of the abuses, which they seemed to think it a sufficient act of virtue, without any effort at amendment, to deplore ; and in such men how could the friends of Reform repose a trust ? Contrast their conduct with that of Lord Grey, who had brought forward in 1831, the very project of Reform which he had proposed in 1797. (Cries of " No, no.") Ho repeated it—the plan of Lord Grey in 1797, contained the disfranchisement of boroughs, the household qualification, the increase of county Mem bers, and even the division of counties. His plan was not fortuitously conceived and abortively delivered, but had long abided in his mind, and was produced—fully and symmetrically formed. He (Mr. Shell) rejected with bitter scorn the insinuation that Earl Grey had resorted to Reform in order to sustain the weakness and de. crepitude of his Government. He had availed himself of the first opportunity which was afforded him to bring forward the measure to which he was from his earliest po litical lire enthusiastically devoted. In him the House should confide. The next question was—what the Mi. nister should do ? He should not in the storm leave the helm ; and though the wave should wash overboard, be should cling to the wheel.—(Cheers.) He should act with vigour and firmness. His patronage should not be bestowed where it would be requited with perfidy ; the mitre should not be planted on any Iscariot brow. (Cries of " Oh, oh," from the Opposition—cheers from the Ministerial side.) Let him be but true to the people, and the people would not be false to him. And what will the people do ? That was the last question. They would enter into a vast, a pacific, and a legitimate confederacy —preserve the peace; but whi'e they shewed the know ledge of their rights, they would also display their deter mination to assert them. From every district of this great country a voice would come, from which an insen sible ear could not long with impunity be turned. United, confederated, resolved—indomitable, irresistible England would demand that her Constitution should he given back. To that demand will the Lords he deaf ? The first wave had broken on the ramparts that were opposed to it—it would only recede to collect its might, and the second would roll on with a more fearful shock, and a more imperious surge. The Lords would have too much regard for their interests and for their duty to oppose the unanimous will of England, or to expose the coronet and the mitre to be blown off in the hurricane of the popular passions. We should bear no more of the privileges of Dukes and Marquisses to vote by pr o xy in this House ; and " vested rights" in Gatton and Old Sa rum would excite but little respect. He had as much re spect for vested rights as any man ; but if any incompa tibility existed between what was called, by a misnomer the most monstrous, the vested rights of this Duke and that Marquis, and the sacred, the immemorial right of the English people to be fully, freely, and fairly represented in the Commons House of Parliament, he would not say that he would merely give a preponderance in the balance to the prerogative that belonged to the Majesty of the People, but he would fling every other regard as dust out of the scales, and disdain to weigh them against the franchise which had come to us from our ancestors—which had been won in so many a field of glorious victory, and had dropped to us from so many a martyr scaffold, and which, with the blessing of God, and the aid of their own virtu ous determination, would be transmitted by the English people renovated and confirmed to the remotest posterity. Sir G. MURRAY would not attempt to pursue the Hon. Gentleman in his ambitious flights of eloquence, ❑ot merely because they were not exactly to his taste, but because he confessed himself incompetent to such grand eloquent elevations, which certainly left poor plodding rea son and sober judgment far below. He would rather fol low the Noble Lord through the calm, considerate, al though mistaken, view he had taken of the subject. The Noble Lord bad said that the country was at an awful crisis. He (Sir G. Murray) agreed that it was placed in considerable difficulties, but he could not go the length of saying that the crisis was awful. The Noble Lord had also stated that the fate of the empire depended upon the vote of to-night. He (Sir G. Murray) hoped that the safety of the empire was founded upon much too solid a foundation to be shaken by the decision of the House upon this question, whatever that decision might be. The pro position of the Noble Lord had two objects :—First, to pledge the House to the principle of the Reform Bill ; and, secondly, to elicit from the House an expression of its con fidence in Ministers. For the first there seemed no very pressing occasion : the Reform Bill had been passed by a majority of 109 Members, and it had been sent up to the other branch of the Legislature, which, with great pro priety, after a patient discussion, had expressed its opi nion. That it had a right to do so no man at present could deny—what might be denied to it hereafter, if the Reform Bill should ever be passed, was a different question. If it were meant by the first part of the resolution to censure the decision of the House of Lords, which, after what had fallen from the Noble Lord, he could hardly believe, he saw additional reason for refusing his concurrence. The Noble Lord bad alluded to the rights of the House of Commons, but no attack had been made upon them : they had been asserted and exercised. The second part of the resolution was to express the confidence of the House in the present Ministers. As to himself, a Noble Lord had said on a former day that one of his (Sir G. Alurray's) faults, us a Member of Parliament, was, that he was too independent of his constituency; he repre sented his native county, and he thought he did not represent it the worse because he endeavoured to exercise an honest judgment : be should on this occasion pursue the same course, and display the same independence. When the dissolution of the late Ministry took place, and the Noble Earl at the head of the present Government was called upon by his Sovereign to form a new Cabinet, he (Sir G. Murray) had felt no indisposition to give him his confidence : he felt only that constitutional mistrust that ought to induce every Member to watch the measures of men in power ; but such as he approved he meant zea lously to support. The new Administration took office pledged upon several points, and principally for the reduction of establishments, and for economy. He had no objections to any plans with those objects, if they were adopted with prudence and caution, and such a course Ministers had in the outset pursued. What were the next measures ?—measures of finance ; and the Noble Lord claimed a vote of confidence for Mi nisters on the strength of the reduction of the duties o❑ coals and candles ae measures of the highest importance. He (Sir G. Murray) quite approved of these reductions; but the question was, were they schemes of such magni tude as to call for such a special resolution ? If the unu sual step of a vote of confidence were taken, the Noble Lord ought to establish some broad and distinct ground for it. Looking at what had recently passed, he found that Ministers had not received the apprpbation of the House for their financial measures: they were even op posed by practical men of their own side of the House, who thought that the projected scheme was inconsistent with good faith to the public creditor.—(Cheers.) But although Ministers had thus found it impossible to carry through their plans, they had maintained the principle to the last, reserving it to some future period when they might have to deal with a House of Commons less scru pulous and more confiding. Their next measure mate rially affected trade, and nobody had imputed that it was resisted upon party grounds. Here again practical men, at other times the supporters of Ministers, came forward and showed how unjust the proposed change would be to the colonies, and how injurious to the commerce of the nation. Ile was at a loss, therefore, to discover on what ground such a vote of confidence was to rest, unless, in deed, upon the alteration of the Game Laws, under the special auspices of the Noble Lord (Althorp)—a measure he (Sir G. Murray) certainly approved—but not of that reach and magnitude to warrant a proceeding so unusual. He had thus touched upon the three chief claims of Mi nisters, as well as he recollected them, independent of the Reform Bill, because the Noble Lord bad not rested his claim to acquiescence in the motion merely upon the proposed change in the representa tion. As to the Reform Bill, the Hon. ➢lember for Calne bad said there were but two parties in the House and in the country—the friends of the measure and its enemies. Did he expect that those who had opposed the change in the Constitution in this House in all its stages could con cur in this resolution? He (Sir G. Murray) had resisted the Bill, because its principles filled him with apprehen sion. Since the Bill applicable to England and Wales had passed, another to regulate the representation of Scotland had bee❑ brought forward by Ministers, and to concur in the resolution of the Noble Lord would imply som e kind of consent to the Scotch Reform Bill, which be (Sir G. Murray) was not at all prepared to give. He considered the Scotch Reform Bill highly objectionable on many points. Those who had resisted not only the principle but the details of the Reform Bill must be the last to con cur in a vote of confidence. Some changes had b'en made in the Bill to which even Ministers had been opposed, and to which they were still opposed, so that they them selves did not approve of the whole of their sawn Bill. It had been asked whether it was possible to suppose that Ministers had brought forward the Reform Bill to strengthen their precarious hold of office? He did not impute it to them, but their was certainly a remarkable coincidence in point of tune, for they introduced the Re form Bill just when they were shaken in the opinion of Parliament by the failure of their other prejecte. It appeared to him that Ministers, when thus weakened by the desertion of their friends and by the attacks of their enemies hatiladopted the course taken by the early inhabitants of England ; they Lad resorted to the dan gerous policy of calling to their assistance a power stronger than themselves.—(Hear, hear.) In their distressing pre dicament Ministers had prostrated themselves before the shrine of democracy ; and in order to purchase an alliance with it, they offered up as a sacrifice the Constitution of their country.—(Cheers from the Opposition Benches.) As he had before said, when the Administration was first formed he had felt no objection to give it all the confi dence that ought to be conceded by a Member of Parlia ment. He saw at the head of it a Noble Lord whose cha racter he respected, whose abilities he acknowledged, and who, he had believed, had seen reason in later life to mode rate and modify the opinions on the subject of Reform which he had entertained in earlier youth. Mr. Pitt had done the same, and he had only attributed to the Noble Earl that he had followed a great and just example. United with that Noble Earl, in various departments, he saw in dividuals of the most distinguished talents. One of them was an individual of vast and varied eloquence, and of ac quirements so extensive as to be exceeded by no man in the country. That individual he had himself heard express sentiments on the subject of Reform fir short of those em bodied in the Bill, and a letter from whom had been pub lished, which showed that his opinions were by no means in favour of sweeping Reform. He saw also in the Cabinet the Noble President of the Council, who had always professed the most moderate views. The three Secretaries of State were, in his mind, sufficient pledges against a violent measure, and hence he felt justified in feeling a considerable degree of confi dence in Ministers. Circumstances were, however, now widely altered ; a Bill had been brought forward tending to the subversion of the Constitution of the country. He did not impute to Ministers that they meant to subvert the Constitution ; but such would be the result ; and they had held out the threat, that if this Bill were not accepted, it would be followed by something worse. Such were his reasons for not concurring in a vote of confidence, and certainly the speech of the Hon. Member for Caine, one of the ablest supporters of the present Government, was not calculated to increase confidence.—(Hear, hear.) The same remark would apply to the very animated address of the Hon. Member who spokelast ; and what struck him (Sir G. M.) as most extraordinary was, that while the Noble Lord was claiming the confidence of the House, the speeches of his supporters tended directly to make the situ ation of Government infinitely more difficult. Was it not to be supposed that such speeches (inflammatory he would not call them, but extremely strong in their expressions) would be re-echoed in the country by persons less respon sible and less honourable intentions ? The Hon. Member had talked of the brambles coming into power ; but would such speeches as he had delivered, keep down the brambles. —(Cheers.) Allusion had been frequently made to the other House of Parliament: be had already expressed his opinion of its independence and magnanimity : he still looked with confidence to its proceedings, and with the same anxiety that it should be supported in the full exer cise of all its functions. In the thirteenth century the Peers had wrested from the Crown the privileges enjoyed and maintained by the people, and to that estate he now looked for the protection of the Constitution in these times of tem porary delusion. On all these grounds he resisted the vote of confidence in Ministers.—(Cheers.) Mr. STRICKLAND said the want of confidence by the people in every Government was one of the signs of the times ; and, he trusted, that the final and certain suc cess of the Reform Bill would re-establish confidence by promoting syrup ally-, and would restore the Constitution which had " grown with our growth, and strengthened with our strength." Mr. LITTLETON thanked the "Noble Lord (Ebring ton) for his motion, and referred to the manner in which the Reform Bill had been sent up to the ot.•er House, car ried by a❑ unprecedented majority of the real representa tives of the people. He was of opinion that Parliament ought not to separate for any time, however short, with out expressing its adherence to the Bill, and its confidence in those. Ministers through whose instrumentality it was still hoped that the measure would be brought to a suc cessful issue. —(Cheers.) He was satisfied that at this critical moment it was only by the House of Commons placing itself in the front of the coun.ry that a degree of exasperation could be avoided, which might lead to the destruction of the public peace. Another reason for con curring in the motion was, and he meant no disrespect to the other side of the House, that if the present Ministry were at this moment to retire, no successors could be found for them.—(Hear, hear.) He did not doubt that a , lventurers might come forward, but the late Cabinet had undoubtedly forfeited all claim to the respect and con fidence of the nation. What confidence could be felt in those men who, last year, had opposed the enfranchisement of Birmingham, Manchester, and Leeds, and who, this year, had resisted the disfranchisement of the most insig nificant boroughs?—(Cheers.) Some allusion had been made to a letter, written by the Lord Chancellor twenty years ago; but it ought to be recollected that it contained his opinions on Reform as a question, in discussing which he was to treat with an adverse Government. —(Elean) It was surely one thing to propose Reform to an adverse Go vernment, and another to join with a friendly Government in accomplishing it.—(Cheers.) Besides, at the date when the letter was written, Great Britain was engaged in a war with France, and the war had then reached its climax of activity and severity—public attention was directed to no other object, and it would have been as insane to have pro posed a huge measure of Reform then as it was mad to re sist it now.—( hear.) He adverted to this topic, because only very recently he (Mr. Littleton) had made up his own mind to support an extended measure of Reform.— (Cheers from the Opposition.) He avowed what was a matter of notoriety to any persons who had thought it worth while to read his speeches and to watch his votes; but his opinions had been long nearing the point that some comprehensive change was necessary. He had formerly hoped that Reform might be accomplished by small means, and he had, therefore, been an ardent supporter of the schemes of the Noble Paymaster of the Forces. His hopes, how ever, had been disappointed, and he shared that disap pointment with the country at large. If, therefore, his late conversion were a reproach, he shared it with the country. He wished to advert to another topic connected with Lord Brougham—his recent and miraculous dispatch of business in Chancery.—(Hear, hear.) Whatever might be the sneers of professional individuals or others, he was sure that the performance of his promises had se cured to him more of the good will of the country than any other act of his life. —(Cheers.) The brilliancy of his early career had attracted to him the gaze of his countrymen, and his gigantic intellect had now placed him in a situation where he could most importantly benefit his country and promote the general interests of mankind. The achievement of this signal victory was sufficient to procure for him the willing admiration of his contempo raries and the gratitude of remote posterity.—(Cheers.) Col. SIBTHORPE said, that after the Reform Bill had passed through one House of Parliament, and had met with a most satisfactory reception in the other— (Laughter) —now, at the eleventh hour, the Hon. Member for Staffordshire declared that he bad within the last few days made up his mind that it was a good measure.—(No, no, and much lau4liter.) He (Col. Sibthorpe) hoped, therefore, that the Hon. Member would have, before long, an opportunity of supporting some reasonable mea sure of Relortn, less hostile to the Constitution, and more in accordance with the real wishes of the people.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He (Col. Sibthorpe) could not be expected to express confidence in the Ministry who had never introduced any good measure. As for their Budget, that he never could swallow ; it stuck in his throat.— (Oh ! and laughter.) He knew that he was not much favoured by the Press ; but he would, however, state his opinions. —(Hear, asd laughter.) 11r. HUME and Mr. T. DUNCOMBE (of Hertford) rose together, amidst loud cries of question. The latter Hon. Gentleman gave way, and Mr. HUME said—Sir, an Hon. and Learned Gentle man below me says that the Ministers called upon the people, and excited them to clamour for Reform. But, Sir, the fact is, that the people called upon the Ministry, and in a manner which it was impossible not to attend to. —(Hear.) The people (lid not want excitement. They were, and they are too much alive to their own interests— they understand too well the measures which are from time to time in progress in this Ilouse, to have any occa sion to be roused or excited on the question of Reform.— (Hear.) So far from there having been any necessity that his Majesty's Ministers or others should excite the people, if I may state honestly my own opinions and my own experience, I will declare that even my efforts have been much more exertcd to controul than to excite them. —(Cheers.) The gentlemen who opposed the Bill in its passage through this House are ignorant of the real state of the feelings of the people, and they arc therefore neither prepared to do the people justice, nor competent to devise a measure which would fully meet their wishes. In all societies there are some unreasonable men; and I know that there are many persons who think me an unreasonable man, as all epithets are given by comparison. But I should be glad to be told who are the unreasonable men i n t hi s case ? They who wish to maintain the influe nce o f t h e Peers in this House, or we who wish to turn that in fluence out of the House, and restore in it the just in fluence of the people, and to open the way for their re presentatives, who would know and support their inte rests? The people are kept out of their own House of Parliament to make room for the minions of a few Lords. In another place there has been much talk of this House alaerecotmheingliaohl.ituaresentolefmDencleagraotuets:d nßientivhleotsiTie.o_rarg'llo:, boroughs but delegates? All the gentlemen wh.031.00 here from the boroughs in schedule A are notn e n t f atti than delegates—(Hear, hear, hear) —and yet th e l o of whose delegates they arc, talk about what o th li t ; of Commons would be if the people were all 'y ea . b . r / . their delegates into it. I think, Sir, that a mo o r' ye cileable measure than the rejection of the Refor such grounds, never was adopted by a House of Lord' (Hear, hear, and order.) The lion. Gentleman rejection ivho nw the House of Lords, he spoke in raptures of_ton,, o c f ri t e h s is ord ß e i r li h a as hd sai i t a l that allu in which the Bill had been received there. I ' 4 6 _ r ol l think that he ought to have been allowed to ea e l' t t; approbation of that conduct, and that I shall r t it/ liberty to say that I greatly disapprove and eg , re , n ,,' (Hear.) But, Sir, my regret is not occasioned2)• 'o'ol prehension that the recent proceeding. oft Hoare Y 1 stop Reform, but because it will force this flo o ,, eat ior a measure of more extensive Reform, Bill sc l to able to the opposers of Reform than the dhiengtotook treOeetre,o3l: been rejected. It is not because I suPe f r oa t E i n jur) o ' cause of Reform will suffer ultimately anY division of those Peers that I regret the iginn l i c t a si e , they have shown of the feelings of the peoP le * ire t ' j : gether for their own sakes ; and I hope that tlw -0 0 t lg r c manifestation of the opinions of the peoPle open st 4 and mere eyes, nor can I hesitate to say that before longe_e them will be m a d e sens ibl e o f the real state of " „I bee° 0 nions.—(Hear.) I thi n k that this House an-„,truistatj may be assured that th e z e al of his Maj est y 's not to be damped, and that their exertio ns fo rite et e tt''* the Hon. Member for Lincoln, of the people will not be checked ; and Isla Sir, that if this motion be carried—an d I he p_i e l i dea° t pill carried triumphantly—it will have the effecta'n. to' disappointed and indignant people, who vvil l _ A ha ti ;i tb fidence in the Ministers, and will not be sari fle d red I.°t efforts for the good of the country, being supper For patriotic King, shall be crowned with sae': of t i divisioilareo cannot be supposed, Sir, that a tbe ' 1) a c t o psV country could stand up successfully against m ost on" fai t (Loud cheers.) It seems to me the thing that ever was contended for, that thre e - b a iio •_ st c hundred men should stand up against the .1 11 #m. and the rights of twenty million•, and that . et r e P re a majority should refuse to the peop l e their r tbe s sentatiou. It has been the great boast 7 a nd titution that it secured to the people 3 ',, u rc ely , e f,„ re : representation. But the fact is that they are be tented at all, and that consequently a small non' is 11 ,e a „ # . sons who have the nomination of Member s t i n s ta g, enjoy all that can be grasped from the people ' - ider it of taxes.—(Hear, bear.) Sir, I should con s. tee , un longer to be an honour to be a Briton, if ray tefet#,:v did not manifest their indi nationat suc h her e -re' sathhosaeirindlalli:avEebg rot, tby resolve that itshould be put an end to. I t d that his Majesty's Ministers and the House cci 'jed Coster decision of this night, that they are deterr n I ; by the Reform Bill until it is carried. I iiii itlie . , r r e • Lord who bears me to support the resolutions - fasgs ,ray until rrl this question is finally settled to the saute, l4'tbe the country.—(Hear, hear.) It has sot been ; o ot minds of the people, whom you never can ent i ' b '' their been so long • deprived. The question niust, rpatio,ch he settled, by surrendering the unhallowed °c oital that power, which is the right of the Pe n P l o e ' has been so long withheld from them. I ha v- # ll laer#q persons talk of being, afraid of the influence °" t oie But who are afraid of that influence, exe e P t k tb f, s . 0( 0 keep from them what is theirs? Who ever " - „ u r e o'll who withheld unjustly what belonged to ant g - e - ; $ ll- t4 not afraid to meet that person face to face. - do ne t3 t ; laugh.) No wonder, then, that they who ha ve ef ea l P l o t or of eo l in h lre people are unwilling to meet their the same assembly ; and, at the same time , n it/ 01 , 6 ,i1 doubt that the people will act as becomes the tl i g - , 1 •11 enlightened and high-minded nation ; that theY p i ' e sso ) . the resolutions of the House night with °- this r ed by i As to the amendment, I wish it had been pror'vaifee other Gentleman than a Member for one of tt le e fort be ties ; for I do not wish the respect of the coun tr i l ioae ' learned and venerable institutions to be too Inu e ' reir,) ' although I know that on many occasions their reP r ev / tives in this House have stood in the way of Ineasu ( ge'll t: culated to promote the welfare of the poop e.. hear.) I did not expect that the Right Hon. ,„ pre p o t or any of his party would repose confidence in t '; did r t Ministry, for they have always shown that di e t ,' 0 )1' 5 , wish the House or the country to be satisfied tvi„ t ' a O fr : of their conduct. But I can tell the Right Il e "; the , tleman, that if the Ministers have not his conficiee:--tlsi! saW tb' 6 o st have the confidence of the country. I meeting of many thousands of people, and I ne ver much unanimity at any • ' prevailed there meeting as subject.—(Cheers.) w ith ry Mr. T. DUNCONIBE—I have listened, Sir , • little astonishment, to the attempts of Hon., ~s s ° opposite to escape the question before us. i t • or < question respecting game laws, or timber dutiee, budget of last year, or a letter of Mr. 13re u t,f a be r ' 1810.—( Hear, hear.) The question simPlY the people are to have Reform or sham Reforrrl'H o use r a Let us look, Sir, to the position in which the re the Administration are placed by the unfortunated order; of the Reform Bill by the Peers.—(Hear, 50 pre et Did not the King, in the judicious exercise of bi a tive, dissolve Parliament, in order to ascertain the;` of the people on that important vital question not their opinion ascertained in the fullest and 161.°,) / vincing manner within these walls ?—ale ar ' bea ed t° ol what was the result ? The House of Lords refus, sent to the wishes of the nation .—( Hear, by The Reform Bill, framed by the Ministers , Pa s . 0, .4 v House, anti unanimously approved of by the - H o er, c' o+t rejected by a small majority of the Peers..--(00(1,4 order.) The question then for us to consitler,hs# IV / question which is in every man's mouth, n ow t Thl ll' iti been seen what the Lords have done —(0 r der).- fl 0 # ~ will the Commons do?"—(Cheers.) I will presumptuous as to dictate what this House °° ,7, o lib t ' l :l or to predict what it will do. But I will take ti ` t 00 1 # of saying what we ought not to do. We eng t 'a 6° 0 6 .1 allow the measure which has occu . d ou r 6- ,, t i1. °1 long to fall to the ground like a Leon Tart rtf4 and without onewish b • " for It • being expressed here ) D 0 siderat . ion and ultimate adopaion.—(Hear, hen the trts,al want to appear earnest in our desire to #neet t o ot " i; ", of the people upon the subject of Reform , w e be 1 1° i b t sit here without taking measures to tranquiffi ze ekat e • mind, and to give a reasonable hope that a full eor o l Reform will before long be carried successfully taro,:ej r TtA, lion. and Learned Member for Boro n g b ,rsP re a el, number,rreins gtot restored to oy. fortah party , mamrtatyhn, yeburawitngeidhet tkghs siavosefe ivasnla:hteo,itic'tber,f:'l frooefactit other Hon. Members upon the same side, h a ; e o f „ e i great apprehensions respecting the consequenef-tbis creation of Peers, with a vi ew t o th e carrying : o gee ° of tion, and especially by a Whi g Ministry. - ' a rtf r o. those gentlemen that it is a bad precedent to 'arty measure by such means. But if I can see 110 alf Ply stitutional means, they must either meet Me 01 bf liatuent—(Order, order! , show me the alternative, by which the just de6j a r iori t 'o ' sr people may be satisfied.—(Hear.) If the 0 04 which the Bill was rejected in the other 14° ,;at g el d hear !)-- o to analyse it now; • I will only say, that if it ' y t he ) —(A laugh)—it would be found that eithe r (Orl f a ir Lords themselves who constituted that rnajoritr; t',#e —or their ancestors, owed their coronets or gy itr ; °jai borough property. If I am not at libertl particularly to that House, I may spe ak :,? -I. ria o.-° passed there as a matter of h . H ' history.—( en"„ay 01 1 It would be worth while to look to the 1 " 00 0 or of those Peerages.—(Order.) t goir4 t ter I ant no brie, be la' history myself. • Their creation could not scribed than it has been b 11 and atrio..__ yan 0 , p 0 1.016 0/ dustrious w • tater, who called it the mode c" pave' t,► Lord a mechanic, and a gentleman of a h o t fit: (A laugh.) But I shall not go into the proof 0,0 9 4 # description might be applied to the ma joritY c'4,be, of b t , another place who set themselves against the Doro vi ii• people. I shall only tell the Hon. Merobcr o r m pf i j bridge that the people and this House have a rig, p le l # 00 1 .0 tion for a new creation of Peers--nc,c on the P,, rl but down by the writer to whom I have a llude" , th4 t P e r c y; true constitutional manner. I agree vii ! li a I and Learned Gentleman, that the remedy ' s d ..eagel perate one. But it is not so desperate as the 1. therefore of the two evils I choose the le o ' t *rt told that such a proceeding would be to offer eneicl,A tifiable indignity to the Peers, I would beg t° 6 oo t ; have the people done that the Peers should have), lath, them with so much contumely ?—(Cheers and ma tte an te ruption.) I will not allude to that majority, o r 0,50 tion is considered to be contrary to order, ful tbe w bo t o say that I have asked some Noble Friends o frninel e sill, „. 0 in that majority, why they did not allow the t° • courtesy to the people and the House of Comnit-e'ratle into a Committee, when they could make suclifaftefornive in it as might adapt it to their own views ° e id 138 ,, They all said that it was most true that such sti , ° 4 been the better course, but that they were told t e a did so they could not keep their majority 0 0 t ll (Hear, and a laugh.) If they did not reject thesP„be cola' second reading they would have no attendance i t h e GO V mittee. " What," said "no attendance in I Tr; tt,'• t it4l } ll4; e t t 't i i tee'e t l i t ' l i e t uu i rP ice e : s fib oying bo seats to de They h ave hot paid o F Reform, or and laughs