The Sun. — London, England, 1863-05-09 00:00:00

hoh, oh, and hear, hear)—its people were so br o ught down been twenty-three months incarcerated, without haying fact. Both Mr. Odo Russell and the French General were in the social scale by priestly ty rann y an d a moat abomin- been tried or even interrogated, on suspicion of being speaking of things of which they were not eyewitnesses. able civil government, that it w ou ld t a k e genera ti ons b e f ore a revoiutionie.. On leaving that cell he had n sur- Mr. Cdo Russell had not seen the brigands. The French the people would be able to enjoy the blessings ot freedom, mutated by a crowd of similar pri t e ners rig oot General could not deny from his own knowlege that they (Oh, oh, and cheers) They might deny or impeach th e " Why are we in prison ? why are we no t j u , d e'' An teed passed. Each spoke from authority. Mr. Odo Russell statement of a gentleman like Mr. Odo Russell, and con- appeal made to the governor o f th e pr i son 1 t h e state- said be would net press his information against that of the demo what he had done, but he honoured that gentleman ment on his part that he deeply regretted to say that he had French General, but my hon. tritiad the Under-Secretary for prefer r in g the humiliation of withdrawing his statement no less than eighty-three prisoners confined, all° had never stated that in which I concur—nam e ly, hi s beli e f th a t th e than, by substantiating h, have to give up his autho rs _ been convicted or even preliminarily examined, Many of information given to Mr. Odo Rus se ll was m ore c orrec t (oh, oh, and cheers)—and eubject them to those pen a lti es these prisoners were most miserable objects, and not at all than that which had been given t o th e F renc h G enera l which would be sure to fall on them. Mr. Odo Russell, likely to be danger o us t o a Lib era l Government. Ouleav- (Hear.) 1 here was another point. The hon, b arone t w h o he said solemnly, had ju s tified hi s statement, and shown ing the prison they i nscr ib e d their names in th e b oo k s, i n criticised the pamphlet of my right hon. friend the Chancel and proved that what he said was true. Was it possible, accordance with th e r ul e s of the place. After mentioning for of the Exchequer said that Poerio was an imaginary therefore, with the present state of things, that Naples the courtesy of the officials, and the cleanliness of the build- person, whom my right hon. friend had dressed up with should be kept quiet, remembering what had been her con- ing, they appended their protest that they could not help dramatic effect and surrounded with circumstances which dition under the dehhtable state of her former Government. observing with regret that so many persons were detained never took place. I have another Poerio—a real Poerio, It was a ease of brigandage, and not -civil war, end though there untried, many of them uninterrogated, and not know- who was in England, and from whose lips 1 heard a corn the hon. member had quoted the statement of some of the ing from the authorities the cause of their imprisonment. plete and accurate confirmation of everything stated by my members of the Italian Parliament to show it was the tat_ After h e h a d l e ft the prison he began to have misgivings of right hon. friend. (Cheers.) Therefore I quote my living ter, he would remind him that there were gentlemen in Op- the blitsful enjoyment of liberty by the Neapolitans. In the Poetic against the aerial Poerio who the hon. baronet some position at Turin as well as in London, who often made second prison he visited, which was the debtors' prison, he how or other imagined was a creature of my right hon. statements they could not prove, and cared little whether found amongst the inmates who were confined for debt two friend's mind. (Cheers.) Ido not complain of the debate they could or not. (Oh, oh, and hear.) It was impossible men who had been convicted and sentenced—one to it:lyd- which has taken place. (Hear.) lam not one of those who to find in Naples an honest man who had in any way sonment for life for homicide, and the other fourteen years think that it is beyond the functions of this house to discuss been connected with the old regime—(oh, oh)—or any one, for forgery. There were a l so one bishop and five priests any subj ec t s , any matters, any affairs in any p ar t o f t h e who had h a d an y ex p er i ence i n governments, t h at un d er . there, neither of whom h a d b een informed for what he was world which members may think deserving of attention and stood the action of an independ en t governmen t, an d it was confined, ar.d one of whom was over seventy years of age, discussion in this house. (Hear, hear.) The members of to that fact was to be attributed the present state and con• who was kept on the prison diet of one meal a d a y w ith co ld t hi s h ouse may say— dition of the Neapolitan ga o l s - Th e G overn ment endea • water. He next visited the women's prison, where he found " Homo sum ; human/ nihil ame alienum puto." voured to catty out t r i a l b y j ury, b ut it ha d f a il e d, f rom a large numb er o f women confined for their political sym- I think we may be satisfied to discuss every matter which their inability to find Neanolitan s re a dy and willing to carry Pal hies. (Hear, hear.) The most ridiculous cas 3 was that bears a general interest in the affairs of Europe and theworld, out their plans, and th e d e l ay occas i one d there b y h a d cau s ed of three females —three unhappy sisters—who had been con- and that discussion is very useful. (Hear, hear.) Although the gaols to remain so f u ll. With regar d t o the state of the fined for twenty-two months, because, as they learnt ten we may hear many things, as we have heard to-night, to prisons, he believed there was an entry in the book of one months before, when they were taken before the magistrate tally wrong in argument, mistaken in point of feeling, and of them, signed by a no bl e l or d (Lord Henry Lennox), they were suspected of having hung a Bourbon flag out of a leading to conclusions entirely inconsistent with fact, yet speaking of the excel ent manner in which the Prison was window, but which i n rea lit y were t h e b e d s h ee t s t h at t h ey nevertheless, those statements are met by counter state , kept, and he hoped to hear a repetition of that fact from the had hung out to dry. (Hear, and l a ughter.) And with those meats at the time, as they have been this evening, and the noble lord, if he had not been converted from his opinion who were confined for political offences were associated wo- conflict of opinions leads at last to the establishment of since hi s return t o thi s country. Some were no doubt in an men of the lowest class and of the most ahaladonedcharacterh truth. When debates go fo r th t o th e wor ld, an d are rea d unsatisfactory state in Naples, and others in a satisfactory When he visited the fourth p r i son , th e gaoler informed him with attention—as I trust everything which has passed this condition, and the Italian Government had expressed their that it was capable of acco mmo d a ting 650, but that 1,359 evening will be read with attention by all who take an regret that the pr i so ns of Naples were not generally in that were at that time incarcerated within its walls. The result interest in the subject—that conflict o f st a t emen t s an d state they should wish to see them. But their excuse was of the overcrowding had been that a virulent typhus fever opinions elicits truth and tends to good in its ultimate that if the old agents were employed it would be i m p oss ibl e had b ro k en out amongs t th e inmates, and that if under the result. (Hear, hear.) Therefore lam not objecting to any he eradicate the vices of the old system ; and if Piedmontese circumstances he wished to inspect the prison he could do thing which has passed in the course of this debate. nor do I gaolers were introduced the tuna] cry would be got up that so. He went in, and he found in one cell eight or nine priests, object to the setting up the affairs of Italy for a free, fair, the Sardinians were bl ought in everywhere. Formerly, the about 14 laymen suspected of political offences, and 10 o r 12 and full discussion. (Cheers,) It has been a most interest state of the Italian prisons and hospitals —with th e excep _ convi c t e d f e l ons . In the next cell there were about 157, the ing debate. We have heard most admirable speeches. I tion of those of Naples— were most c re dit a bl e t o th e dab_ great er p a rt of whom were untried. During the whole day must compliment the noble lord on a most eloquent and rent governments. Especially so were those of Piedmont (with the exception of a short time they were allowed for admirable speech—(hear, hear)—a speech which does great and Tuscany , and now was anything said against the state exercise in a wretched yard) and all night they were kept in credit to his good feelings and his energy in explaining those of the prisons of Piedmont and Tuscany? The whole case that cell, not knowing for what they were there, and with dark recesses of which he gave us an account. But I must against the Italian Government was that they had failed to them was a man convicted of murder, and who was to be say that the statements which he made, so far from incul bring the Neapolitan p r i sons i n t o the same sta t e as th ose o f executed the week after. In the next roam he found 230 of pating the present Government of Italy, showed that, in Piedmont and T uscan y. L e t him ask, what object cou ld th e these wretched men, and the state of filth and squalor in spite of all their exertions, the abuses of the former Govern- Italian Government h ave i n k eep i ng t h e N eapo lit an p r i so ns which he found them would require an abler and more elo- meat still remain unextinguished—(oh, and cheers)—be in the state represented b y th e h on . member? As fo r the quent tongue than his to adequately describe, They were cause he tells us of nothing which we do not know to have treatment of the pris o ne rs , th e y we re actually treated with men of different classes, who had been condemned to that actually existed under the reigns of the Neapolitan Sove more liberality than prisoners in England. No doubt th e living death because they had listened to the voice of Gari- reigns ; and therefore the only result of that statement southern part of Italy was in an unsatisfactory state, baldi. Many o f th em h a d been imprisoned so lon g th a t w hi c h h e made is that the present Government has not but he would reiterate what he said last year, that, with their clothes had worn out, and they had not money with scceeded in entirely getting rid of all the abuses which very few exceptions, the National Guard were tru e t o which t o p urc h ase e th ers . O ne was in a state of absolute existed. (Derisive cheers) We had another able speech the Government. As for the charges brought against Sir nudity. He had no shirtor trousers, and only a ragged coat, although it brought down upon the person who made it the James Hudson and Mr. Consul Bonham—that they had which he threw over his shoulders; and his condition was attacks of some on the other side of the house We had an suppressed information and deceived her hdajeaty's G overn _ so bad that he could net rise to make his obeisance and ask able speech from nay hon. friend the Under Secretary of went -he would merely l eave it to the house to say whe- for mercy from the strangers, (Hear, h ear .) Th e stench was State, and I think those who heard that speech and saw ther it was fair and generous to level such accusations fearful then (which was in the month of January), and the way in which he refuted point by p o i n t all the state against men who were unable to defend themselves. To de- what, he asked, must it be now that the hot weather had set meats which went before him—(oh, oh)—will agree with dare th a t such men had wilfully deceived the Government in ? (Hear.) The food supplied to them would not have me that it will go far to establish e d th a t truthful result which was a calumny which ought to be resented. It was true that been given to cattle in this country, and the bread was so I contend is the effect of debates which take place in Parlia th e y heard occasionally of acts of atrocity being perpetrated hard that he was unable to make an impression on it with meat. (Hear.) Then we heard a most admirable sp eec h in Southern Italy, but such ac t s were i nsepara bl e from the hi s foot In the next room were 303 persons confined—one from a member newly come within these walls—a speech state of brigandage which existed th ere . A n d it was no t th e was dumb, and another a hunchback—but all protesting delivered with great eloquence, with great powerof language, Italian Government, b u t t h ose w h o sen t the brigands utt against the so-called clemency of the Government. In the and with an earnestness which proved the deep conviction that were responsible f or th e b r i gan d age . (H ear , h ear .) H e prison which had b een v i s i te d b y the Chancellor of the Ex- of the speaker by whom it was delivered. We must give altogether rejected the charge that the English Govern- chequer, and which he had described as a cha rna hh ouse , h e him great credit also for the energy with which he has di ment had encouraged these brigands to cross over from found 1,200 confined there in a space allott e d f or no t more rected his mind to the subject, I trust that that which is Malta to the Italian shore. Th e h on , mem b er sa id thi s was than 600. There were but one gaoler and 14 w ar de r s an admirable beginning will be followed by still better re a civil war, and not brigandage; b u t was th ere ever a civil to control these wretched beings, and the gaolers, both sults, and that he will frequently give the house the benefit war in which no man of property, no officer wearing a tini- in that and all the other persons, implored him to u s e his of his remarks. (Cheers.) But the real fact of the case is form, no prince of the blood was engaged ?It would be un•• influence to obtain an alteration of the present system of this—that we do not deny, and we cannot deny that on the worthy of England to insult a great and independent Go- overcrowding; and he gave an emphatic denial to the state- Neapolitan territory there does exist a great number of vernment like that of Italy, by year after year publishing ment made by Mr. Bonham that the atrocities committed abuses which are, in short, relics of that system which was these reports on the state of Italy. (Hear.) He admitted the upon those wretched individuals were due to the cruelties of overthrown when Garibaldi passing from Sicily came to condition of Italy was not satisfact or y , but at the same time Bourbon gaolers. (Hear, hear.) In that building he found Naples, and presented, as he did, the kingdom of Naples to he maintained that no count r y had achieved its indepen- 850 confined in five rooms, running one into another, with Victor Emmanuel. Everybody must agree that in every deuce in so short a time of which there was so little to cone _ only open iron rails between them, As soon as he appeared other part of Italy there is nothing of which complaint plain. (Cheers.) Great things had never been accompli s h e d amongst them he was beset with petitions and entreaties; can be made. (Oh, oh.) Lombardy is flourishing; without great trials,andltalymust be prepared to g o th roug h and as soon as they heard he was an Englishman they Tuscany is in good condition. No one says any evil of her day of trial. With respect to the statement of the hon. formed the vain hope that he had come to relieve them from Modena. Parma we never hear of; the Romagna, added member for King's County (Mr. Hennessy), the hon, mem- the greatest cruelty and oppression, In fact, what he saw from the States of the Church, is confessedly in a most ber had very ingeniously confined his observations to th e there he could only compare to "the hell tortured victims" flourishing and happy condition. It is only in the kingdom years 1861 and 1862 ; but had he really desired to test the in Dante's " Inferno." The noble lord then describ e d his of Naples and Sicily that these complaints exist. (Cheers.) condition of Italian trade, he ought to have compared its visit to b e t ween 40 an d 50 consp i rators, He did not sym- Let any one recollect how difficult it is for a Government to present state with what it was in the year 55, '° B, ' 57, '5B, pathise with conspirators, and their crime was th a t th ey h a d mou ld and weld together six additions to an existing State when Naples was under the old regime. But at the same time deserted Victor Emmanuel, and had listened to the voice of —and such is the task which the Italian Government has he could mention this extraordinary fact, that while during that great and honest man, Ga. italdi ; and if any man had to perform. To Piedmont have been added Lombardy, the last 12 months our exporthin consequence of the civil war might in such a case temper justice with mercy that man Tuscany, Modena, Parma, the Romagna, and Naples. All in America, had fallen off to all other parts of the world the was Victor Emmanuel. ( Hear, hear.) Iu a most miserable these had different organisations, different laws, different exports to Italy had increased. L as t y ear h e h a d e x pl a i ne d and narrow cell, with four iron bedsteads, without a table or tariffs, different systems, and all these had to be welded into that although, according to the ne w It a li an t ar iff , t h e t ar iff b oo k s t o c h eer th em , h e found four men chained two and one harmonious whole. I think any one who knows any of Naples had been reduced 80 per cent. , y et the customs ' two with the heaviest of irons. It was at first difficult to thing of the difficulties of government can hardly expect receipts had only fallen off to the extent of 17.000,000 f rancs , recognise in that situation so distinguished a man as Count that in two years the task will be completely and satisfac showing that the trade of the country had increased fivefold. Christian, but he made a sign and said " I appreciate your torily accomplished. In those parts with regard to which no That was a most remarkable fact. The hon. member seemed feeling. You feel pity for me. Don't do that, but feel pity external influences are at work it has been accomplished in to think that because the trade of Italy with England had for those who desecrate the name of freedom by treatment a wonderful degree (cheers)—because in five of those States not increased, that therefore its trade with the rest of the such as this lam now suffering." (Hear, hear.) Sign or which I have enumerated things go on well, and no cora world had fallen off. Now, the fact was, that the trad e of Carraciolo, with another political offender was there, and plaints whatever exist. (Cheers.) Naples is the exception, Italy with the test of the world had increased enormously, he was chained to a man who had been a brigand, and who and why ? Because, next to Naples we have Rome. Be (Cheers.) was convicted of robbery and mans l aug ht er. I n that con- cause in Rome there is a French garrison. Because that Lord H. LENNOX, as an independent member, desired dition he found those gentlemen, whose misfortune it had French garrison protects the ex Court of Naples. (Loud to speak as to facts connected with the present condition of been to differ in opinion with the Government, and whose cheers.) And, because, under the shelter of that foreign Italy, which had come under his own eyes. But first let crime had been to conspire again s t the m — ch a i ne d w ith army there exists a committee of, I believe, no less than 200 him observe, that no one who knew him doubted but that the heaviest of irons to the c ommonest o f ma l efactors. people, whose constant employment it is to organise bands his warmest sympathies were with the cause of the Italian (Hear, hear.) Against such a s y s t em as t h at he entered of murderers—(oh I and loud cheers)—of the scum and people; and that even in the days of Magenta and S lfe- his protest. He cared not whether such deeds of dark- dregs of every nation, and to send them forth into the Nea fel inn, when many of toe friends of Italy dissociated them- ness were done under a Bourbon, or under the pseudo politan territory to commit every sort of atrocity. (Cheers ) selves from the cause, through a dread and jealousy of liberality of Victor Emmanuel, b u t i n th e name o f E ngland And then we are told that is civil war! Good God I what Frenchinterference, he had never shared that dread or that 'he denounced the commission of such barbarous atrocities. an idea gentlemen must have of civil war when they dignify jealousy But when such facts as he had seen in Italy came The captives all desired to be tried. To th e en d o f every ac t s o f the most atrocious ruffianism—(loud cheers)—by a under his notice, it was impossible to remain blindfolded vista, however long, they had a spark of hope, and did th e y name which may imply the loftiest sentiments and the with respect to the real condition of the country. He de- bit know their fate that spark of light would grow l onger highest possible social and political aspirations. (Cheers.) sired to raise four questions. In the first place, he would and larger as the period for their liberty arrived. Their I say they do commit acts of the greatest ruffianism (cheers) ask whether it was true that at the present mom e nt th ere present suffering was intolerable, and many of them believed —because they burn houses and murder people, and they prevailed in the Neapolitan Kingdom a system of pers o nal that the certainty of imprisonment for life (which would destroy and lay waste. They burn people as well as houses. domestic espionage ; secon dl y , whether t h ere ex i ste d , not destr o y the hope of a release) would be preferable to their They burn their captives. (Hear, hear.) We have know merely at Naples, but at Genoa, Florence, Milan, and Bo- present state of intolerabl e suspe nse . He hoped the ledge of this, and therefore I say they do commit atrocities logna, a perfectly free press, and at that point he was at Chancellor of the E xc h equer wou ld exerci se his influence which ought to make those who send them forth direct issue with the Un der ' Secretary of State, for he had with the Gove r n men t an d p u t a s t o p t o such a state of things to commit them blush to the deepest dye. (Cheers.) Then, visited every one of those towns; thirdly, he invited the as he had described , and prevent its leading to the gravest there are gentlemen in this house who are proud of their ligious faith, who cling, as they may naturally and re housepro- to examine whether under the benign rule of Victor European complications. (Cheers). Emmanuel there existed th at complete personal liberty of Mr. BUTLER-JOHNSTONE, in a very promising first Indy do, to that faith, who call themselves pre-eminently which the Under -Secretary spo ke ; and fourthl y , he would speech, admitted some of the grievances complained of by Catholic, while they set their face against the liberties of answer the challenge of the g entleman ' b Y directin g at- Lord H Lennox in the state of the Neapolitan prisons and Italy, and seek to rivet her fetters, forgetting that the Ita - tenti t on to t t o h t e he s s s ta te te m of of th e e s l p t i a on lia a n ge, pr i s ons ° Now, with re- the detention of persons without trial, but suggested various lians are 20,000,000 of Catholics, as good as themselves, and he begged to say, upon considerations which should mitigate the responsibility of who ought to be better, inasmuch as they are nearer the B h P i e s c personal y responsibility, that the very same system, the Italian Government. He pointed out the ma ss o f evil s source. (A laugh.) I confess lamat a loss to understand worked by the very same agents, as prevailed under the with which that Government had to contend placing it in why this should be the case—(hear, hear)—but be that as Bourbon regime was still maintained, and that it was not a position, he said, in which no other Government ever it may, I still contend that if those disorders which have persons of low cas t e that we r e subjected to its influence, found itself. The existing state of things in Italy was been mentioned continue to prevail th e i r continuance is due but men of birth and education—men too who had suffered exceptional, and would pass away, Time was required to to those who from Rome keep up this agitation. (Hear.) under the rule of Ferdinand and Francis 11. He had a list admit of radical improvements in a society infested by in- After all, it may, be, perhaps, that this state of things is o f th o se persons by him, and either the hon. gentleman or veterate vices, which the present Government had set itself not otherwise than in the usual course of affairs. Great the noble lord at the head of the Government were perfectly sincerely to work to eradicate. changes of dynasty cannot well be effected without a long welcome to look over that list, although he dare not make Mr. GOWER defended the Italian Government in regard series of disorders. No change of dynasty has ever taken them public in that house. In support of his assertion that to the state of the Neapolitan prisons. He thought that place in any country with the immediate and entire acqui. perfect liberty of person did not exist in Naples, the Lord H. Lennox had been intentionahy misled upon the escence of the people of that country. Indeed, I would say noble lord stated that since his visit to Naples two months subject by reactionary agents. With reference to the con- that the worse a Government is, the more corrupt it is, the since, and not more than a week or two since, 200 h a lm • diti on ot Italy, he enumerated a variety of material and mere likely it is to leave behind it when overthrown per duals, men, women, and children, had been swept off into moral improvement s introduced since the change of rulers. sons who lived by that corruption and who regret to find prison, only on suspicion of s ympathy with the Bourbons, Sir G. BOWYER argued at some length that the South that their means of livelihood had departed. Such is the (Cheers.) With regard t o th e a b s ence of freedom of the of Italy was really in a state of insurrection, the so• called case in the Neapolitan territory, and it is not to be supposed press, he would observe that every morning in the Neapo- brigands being supported by the whole body of the popu- that by a stroke of the wand, or by the apparition of half a litan States each paper 'a as submitted, before it was pub- lation ; and he dwelt upon the severities exercised by the dozen followers of Garibaldi in red shirts in a railway car lished, to an official ca ll e d the Questeh,who was empowered Piedmontese Government towards Southern Italy, which riage, all traces of the former monarchy are at once to be to con fi sca t e ant' seize such as he disapproved of, and even was trodden down, he said, by a merciless despotis m . H e sw e pt away, an d 'hat there should not remain behind so me to suppress _them altogether. Such con fi scat i ons an d sup• h e ld he r M a j esty ' s Mi n i sters responsible for the state of persons who, from motives of int eres t or f rom attachment to P_r esamns were not confined to Naples, for they a l so t o k thi ngs i n It a y. the old dynasty, should desire to se e it res t ore d . I t is a great place in other parts Wit a month a newspaper Ai r , AGAR-ELLIS, spea ki ng f rom personal examine- mistake to imagine that it is the majority of the Neapolitan o f Florence, called the eh coca Europa, of Italy. hin had been se i ze d f our tien, gave a far less unfavourable descripti on o f t h e Neapo- population, and not the smallest possible minority, by whom times in nine days, and finally the editor had bh'n he av il y li tan prisons than Lord H. Lennox. such sentiments are en t er t a i ne d, Great difficulty has, no fined, and imprisoned for three months. Another paper, After some remarks by Sir P. O'Barnet, doubt, been experienced in introducing into Naples that celebrated for its thor ughly liberal sentiments, had come Mr. COCHRANE said the Government had either been pure system of government and jurisprudence which one to the same untimely end. In Milan the Peesenenanza had kgt in ignorance by their own agents of what was passing would wish to see established there, and which it has been confiscated for republishing a despatch from Earl Rua- in Italy, or they had been culpably silent. He produced a been the earnest desire of the Government of Turin to stll to the Turin Government. In the Romagna a newspaper o m n i t n eE a e l listoflBB persons shot in cold blood by the Pied- carry into operation. It must, however, be borne in - which had been in existence only two years had been sup- Government al in the first three months of the pre- mind that you cannot govern without inttruments, and imprisoned sent m year, and also tshooauphroclamation which he denounced as that, as my hon. friend the Under-Secretary of State re for two times, one of its editors being fined and t her Majesty's Government had marked, those instruments are wanting in a country which for years for reptintieg articles from Piedmontese - infamous. papers. Many journals were suppressed in one province failed in the cause o' ghumanity. has been corrupted to the core by a long system of arbitrary and allowed to circulate in another, showing how complete Mr. 'oh HALLEY protested against the whole discuesion. and tyrannical rule. The hon. baronet who spoke last the unity of Italy was. (Laughter.) In three e ears 27 Due notice should- he thought, be given of such a debate. seemed to ridicule the idea that a jury could not be procured journals had died altogether, having been suppressed by the Mr. MAGI-hIRE animadverted upon what he termed the in Naples ; but the fact is that, owing to the eystem of police and never having, been allowed to reappear. Ihe noble inflarnma or y address of Mr. La and uttered in reply to the terrorism which has for a long time ben established, e lord quoted the ease ef one edttor, whose office had been at- m ost t em p e rate s p e ech of Mr. Bentinck. What, he asked, sons are afraid to come forward and discharge the duties tacked by mobs and destroyed, wh o had him self b een had been the resu lt o f th e violation of internation a l law and of jurymen and that is the reason why the prisoners are not threatened with assassination if he attempted to republish the machinations of Victor Emmanuel and the policy of brought t ,trial with the despatch which is desirable. It is a hi s journal, and who, in claiming the protection of the Go- her Majesty's Government F A unity that was a mockery great pity that such should be the case, because the detention vernmen . t for this purpose, hid been thrown into rison and a sham. In In the s tate of things described her Majesty'; of so large a number of persons in gaol for so long a time Un on the charge that his protest against the outrage wa l' s dis. Government was asked to interfere and remonstrate in a tried and without being proved guilty of the crimes laid to loyal. The Government ha d thus set the stamp of their friendly manner with that of Piedmont, in order to put an u th o e v i e r lt c y h . ar g l e t i i s s n si o m d p oi l t y ht th a e g e r o e u a t t io ev u i a l t . ion tth of is a , howev er,state of th i i s u n g o a approval on t hi s th rea t of assassination. With regard to end to the atrocities perpetrated in Italy. liberty of action in t h e Neapolitan States, the nob :e lord L d PALMERSTON I wish before I address myself which previously existed. There was, I may add, another proceeded to state that he had arrived at Naples, a strong to the or subject of the debat — e, to set right a misrepresentation evil which existed before, but which no longer prevails. partisan of Victor Emmanuel's Government, but what he which - of Mr Under the old regime persons who had been tried and ac has been made with regard to the conduct were not allowed still held to en der d m e r a s a hal seen in going ever the prisons in Naples had induced Odo Russell in a particular transactio n . A n b on . mem ber— quitted, and sent back into socie w t surveillance As him to modify his opinion He had visited those prisons lam ashamed to vy Ido not recollect who—quoted from a species of superintendence, and e y r ' e many mes of the police, and whh a member of the Turin Parliament, who, for having B russels paper, .7_,e'Nerd, an account of a supposed convey- thus 1 ,r , ied him, had since been suePected of entertaining salon between Mr. Odo Russell and she French General own it under i ° ha;as 70,000 persons ware accouiepnary sentiments, had le, en the object of newspaper commanding in Rome. tern of t i h ac ei . r ,l nut allowed to leave their ho " I did not.") were engage a in any pro • r f . ° c 1 and finally had been summoned before a judge to Whoever it was, I would reco G. Bowyer— or do anything, in short, which ,LIIC Cs, . conspired against his country. The second that paper again. (Hear, he mmend him never to consult fession,. free man would answer for having was whether Lord Lennox was Sir G. BOWYER • all wish to do, because they feared they might be re -committed part to put him I eltel not sp:ak from information de. to prison, notwithstanding their previous acquittal. (Hear.) interrogatory who a eared to be the rived fro of Lord Nerman by, PP not a parents Having stated 133 any newspaper. I spoke from more trustworthy If now the prisons in Naples are not in such a state as one Government (Hear.) information. (Hear, hear.) bugbear of the Italian and of discussion, as to Lord PALMERcouId wish to see them, this is so, I contend, in spite of the had as to liberty of person a . . ETON—The paper, .Le Nord was men- exertions of the Italian Government to place them in a what he system of espionage, he toned, and the conversation was liberty of the press, and as to the quoted from that paper. better conditien. I may further observe that the detailed know whether ho was (Hear.) That assumed conversation confidently appealed to the house to Secretary of State for upon the good breeding of the Frenchwas a great reflection statement of the noble lord opposite (Lord H. Lennox) has not right in charging the Under S of England is unusual for gentlemen ' • General, because it been, in many respects, contradicted in the course of the in society to make use of rho discussion Foreign Affairs with having misled the peoplehad raised the pression which is attributed to the French General ex• by those who have had opportunities of seeing last year behstating that the change in Italy of the knowing him to be a gentleman of refined and, the prison into which he obtained admission. The very people froni the "verge of slavery to the enjoyment at all believe that he used it. The facts of the casemanners, w do not fact, indeed, that the Neopolitan prisons are thrown open fullest liberty." (Laughter.) With regard to personal_ Mr. Odo Russell received information from to anybody, be he Englishman or any other stranger, visit made by persona whom and that there • liberty, the noble lord stated the result of a . could he believed to be trustworthy, but whosenames he was not at clearl ls no concealment as to their condition, him to the prisons of Naples, where, he said, nothing regarded liberty to mention, that certain brigandshad passed outof the all eventsthat the Italian Government does not at he described as badly conducted so far as poll- hhapal territory in French uniforms, not furnished by the indication object to be told of its faults, thus affording an - tried and convicted felons; but, as regarded Government, but by those p ersons who supplied the that it is disposed to remedy them, The loon. em, • tical Prison ers th e c as e was different. He had seen Mr. French e, may add, has to-night repeated Bishop, and in another call found a prisoner who had means of the expedition, The French Government denied the his prophecy that an united Italy ot last, that it will all a leader, still hanging on the accents of English Ministers, perpetually adopting a line which nothing could justify ex cept commanding genius and commanding legions, holding out to the people the immediate expectation of Mine being made their capital by the overpowering interference of their English ally, and representing results which will not occur, if ever, for half a century as the consequences of the pass ing hour. And what has become of the state of Italy ? A state of dismemberment, of confusion, vexation, embar rassment, disgrace, and humiliation. (Cheers.) The hon• member for Peterborough has doubted whethet the condi tion of Italy is a legitimate subject for our debate. He shrinks from irritating the Vatican, and would rather con centrate all his efforts against Maynooth. (Laughter.) I want to know on what ground we are to discuss the stateof Poland, if we are not permitted to discuss the state of Calabria and the Two Sicilies. (Hear.) True, in one country the insurgents aro called brigands, and in the other patriots, but, with that exception, I have not learned from this discussion that there is any marked discrimination between them. (Oh, oh ! and cheers.) But, says the noble lord, it is really only in Naples that these disturbances occur, and Naples after all is merely a province. Naples merely a province ! What becomes, then, of your united Italy ? (Cheers.) Is it only in Naples that this dissatis faotion appears ? It is expressed in every other of the six States absorbed. There is universal discontentment and complaint. But what have we heard to-night P A de scription of the state of things has been given, which has not been contradicted, and of which every gentleman with information on these subjects was previously aware, though he had not heard it related in detail with the picturesque animation which accompanied the statement of the noble lord the member for Chichester. When you talk of the liberty of the press, is it a fact or not that it is not enjoyed in any part of Italy? Is it true that, whether in Milan, or whether in Genoa, or even in:Turin, and certainly not in Florence, the liberty of the press does not exist ? (Hear, hear.) Is it a fact or not that the liberty of the person is much in the same state as the liberty of the press ? (Hear, hear.) The reason given by the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs why persons are kept in prison without trial is cer tainly one of the most remarkable I ever heard. While the country is improving its jurisprudence one of the regulations is that the prisoners, until the improvements might be car ried into effect, should be locked up. (Laughter.) The rea son given by the Under.. Secretary, as far as I can collect it, for not bringing persons to trial is that the jurymen are not considered capable of performing the duties of their high office. But what if a more natural reason be the true one, and that jurymen are not found capable of carrying into ef fect the intentions of the Government ? (Cheers.) I put it to any philosopher who decides on human conduct upon abstract principles, and not with a knowledge of the circum stances, which he would think the most natural solution of the monstrous state of affairs described by the Under-Sec retary—mine, or that which has the official warrant; and I ask him to decide which is the most probable, the most natural, and, certainly, which is the most true reason. (Hear, hear.) This is the condition of Italy at the present moment; it was the condition of Italy last year, and it is one highly unsatisfactory, I believe, to the Italians as well as to England. (Hear, hear.) They have been kept in a state of constant excitement and irritation from expectations held out by our Government through a course of policy being in dicated by England, which England was never prepared to act upon, and which England was not justified in holding out without being prepared to act on it. (Hear, hear.) Only last year the noble lord informed the country and Europe that immediately they might expect some great change in Italy, and that a solution of all the difficulties of Italian p.litics was about to be accomplished. But, mind you, we have had a very different tone to-night. We have not heard from the noble lord any expressions on that sub ject. Much as he is obliged to keep up some appearance of unity in the policy of the Government, yet there have been no expectations held out to-night of Rome being immedi • ately, or even eventual y, the capital of Italy. There have been no menaces to France, no promises to Italy —menaces and promises generally equally fallacious ; but, on the con trary, the noble lord has spoken with much moderation on the subject, and the noble lord appears to have adopted the tone of the sensible observations made by my hon. friend the member for Canterbury in his admirable speech, great in performance, and greater still in promise, from which it may be hoped that the hon. member will contribute much to the interest of our future debates. (Hear.) My hon. friend, fresh from Italy, and well informed, has taken, as we all have a right to do, his own interpretation and view of public affairs. He stated that there is now a chance for Italy, that there have been some progress and some improvements, and that, though the difficulties have been immense, there is mere common sense among the Italians than the world gives them credit for, and that they have dismissed from their mind the wild notion of taking possession of Rome as their capital. That was what was stated by my hon. friend as his impression of what is the state of public opinion in Italy : and the consequence is that, as the views of the Italian Governuent are now more practical, the pro spects of the country are brighter, and there is hope that the people will be content now in consolidating their strength and developing their resources, and not indulge in those wild dreams of impracticable politics which, for some reason or other, were encouraged by the Minister of Eng land. (Hear.) That was the gist of the speech of my hon. friend, and I entirely agree with him as to the present con dition of Italy. I believe with him that the state of Italy is an exceptional state. You cannot expect in a nation where a great revolution and great changes have taken place that logical order and propriety in the Administration of the laws and the practice of the constitution which you meet with in such a country as England. That is the result of time and experience —experience showing the blessings of order and a settled constitution, and time moderating the human passions and toning down the dispositions of men to a practical enjoyment of life. I agree with my hon. friend in the opinion he brings from Italy that the Italian Go vernment has given up those extreme views he adverted to, and that there is now a more practical consideration of affairs, which will, I hope, lead to the increased prosperity of Italy in bringing about that state of things which was contemplated by the greatest of her statesmen, and which in time may be developed in greater proportion. But if this is to be brought about it can only be brought about by Italy pursuing that policy with temper and perseverance. Italy must learn to depend on herself. She must not depend either on the expectations held out by English Ministers, which cannot be realised, or on the hopes held out by French Governments, which may lead her into a position most em barrassing. The Ministers of Italy occupy at this moment particularly a difficult position, They must extricate them selves from a false condition of affairs, made up of exagge rations conceived in the epoch of a revolution, and which rival Governments have played with in incessant manceuvree But they cannot do this unless they let Europe know that they are pursuing a poliey of peace and conciliation, not of war, invasion, and aggression. (Hear, hear.) There is no country in the world for which peace is more necessary, and of which peace should be so decidedly the policy, as Italy at the present moment. Last year, when we had same inci dental discussion upon the subject of Italy, with reference to our own public expenditure, I ventured to say that the policy pursued by our Government with regard to Italy and the centre of Europe was one of the causes of that expendi ture, I said then that the policy which we pursued with re gard to Rome was of an irritating character, which must end in disappointment and failure, and which was not war ranted by sound principles—(hear) —and that if there were a fair and rational understanding between England and France in regard to Italy, that understanding might, and could, and ought to have a considerable effect on the expen diture of the country. Well, 12 months have elapsed, and the state of affairs which I indicated as desirable has really oceurred, There has been a change in the public opinion of Italy as to the policy which it ought to pursue. Rome is no longer held forth as the necessary and inevitable capital of Italy, without the possession of which there could be no development of resources, no expansion of freedom, and without which industry could not receive the fruits of its exertions. On the other hand, between England and France, as far as we can judge, there is this understanding on the subject of Italy—it is apparently argued that Italy shall no longer be the scene of livel policies—that she shall be left alone to the calm and tranquil development of her resources, and the consolation of her political power. I think the prospects of Italy in these respects far more favourable than last year. (Hear, hear.) All who have spoken to-night have described the state of Italy as more or less better than it was said to be last year. I agree with the noble lord that it may be productive of good that the details which nave been given to-night should be known to Italy and to Europe. I think that knowledge may tend to a considerable amelioration bath of a public and a private nature. But what is still m , re important is that England should be thoroughly disabused as to the popular opinion with respect to the condition of that country. (Hear hear.) Italy is not at this moment a land flowing with milk and honey. (Hear, hear.) Italy is a land much exhausted by great struggles ; she has gone through the trial, I am bound to say in a manner which, on the whole, must elevate her in the consideration of nations, (Hear, hear.) If she has not realized what I would call the visions of her friends, she has far surpassed the expectations those who were not friendly to her may have indulged in. (Hear, hear.) She has shown energies which the world did not give her credit for, and which, if well husbanded, and if they meet a fair fortune, may tend to the ultimately triumph of her ambition, provided it be one such as circnmstances justify and which the nature of things will permit. (Hear hear.) This is not an unfavourable prospect after all the fears which have been engendered during the last two or three years, The general condition of affairs is much ameliorated. But that amelioration can only be secured by adopting the causes which have led to it—namely, relinquishing that policy of the English Government, which was a policy of words, not of deeds, by promoting the natural consolidation of her Government and the natural development of her re sources, and by obtaining that liberty in practice which at present she possssses only in theory. (Loud cheers.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER —So many appeals, Mr. Speaker, have been made to me in the course of this debate that I can scarcely reconcile it to my mind, if I may trust to the patient attention of the house, to sit still without saying one word in answer to those appeals, and without noticing the speech which has just been deli vered. My hon. friend the member for Taunton (Mr. C. Bentinck) and try noble friend the member for Chichester (Lord H. Lennox) have both delivered speeches of great ability, and they appear to think it most inconsistent on my fall to pieces, and that their ancient dynasties will be esta blished once more in all the separate States of the Italian peninsula. But I hope he may turn out to be a false pro phet, because the unity of Italy is likely, in my opinicn, to be the foundation of her prosperity. That unity has up to the present moment been attended with the most beneficial results. It will, I trust, continue, and if arrangements could be made so to extend it as to trance the whole of the Italian provinces, I feel quite satisfied that no country in Europe, no population in the world, could attain to a higher pitch of happiness and prosperity than an United Italy, so constituted, would achieve. For her Majesty's Government, I will only say that we do not at all regret the part we hove taken in this question. We have been accused of intermed dling, but we have done so only in the shape of moral in fluence and the expression of opinion. I am glad to think that the course we have taken has called forth the gratitude of the people of Italy, and that it has done so I know to be the tact. The people from one end of the country to the other are deeply grateful to the English nation for the kind and warm interest it has taken in those transactions which have tended so much to their happiness, and no doubt any influence which we may be able indivi dually to bring to bear with a view to putting an end to those evils which still survive their unity it will be the duty of the Government to exert. It is not a fitting or becoming thing for one Government to interfere in the internal administra , ion of another State ; but thereare, at the same time, cases in which friendly advice might be given, and I feel assured the discussion this evening will be attended with good results in connexion with those points which have been the subject o f com ment . Th e ben. gentleman who spoke last but one alluded to the case of Mr. Bishop as one in which, in his opinion, a great amount of tyranny was exercised. Now, Mr. Bishop was on his trial, convicted of having been a car rier of treasonable correspondence between Rome and Naples —au offence of deep dye, He was sentenced in accordance with the law, but the sentence in its execution, though not altogether revoked, was greatly modified at the intercession of her Majesty's Government. So far from the case of Mr. Bishop then being an example of over-severity on the part of the Italian Government, it ought, I think, rather to be looked upon as an instance in which the Government has yielded to the friendly recom mendations of her Majesty's Ministers, and remitted a large portion of the penalty inflicted by a court of justice on an individual who had beyond doubt greatly offended against the laws of the country in which he chose to reside. I have simply to add, hi conclusion, that I feel assured the Italian Government will pursue that course which, notwithstanding the allegations made to the con trary, I maintain it is pursuing—namely, the establishment of order with every indulgence consistent with the attain ment of its object. I trust that it will exercise no undue severity, but that with the means placed at its disposal it will enforce that authority which I contend has its founda tion in the free will of the Italian people; which is in ac cordance with the national desire, and which being so will, I am confident, be more lasting than the hon. member for Dungarvan seems to imagine, (Cheers.) Mr. DISRAELI—I entirely concur with the noble lord in not regretting that this discussion has taken place. We are, I think, indebted to the hon. gentleman who brought forward the subject for the most interesting and animated debate of the Session. I may add that it is with some pride I advert to the circumstance that it was from these benches three speeches were delivered to-night, to which everybody who beard them must have listened with the utmost plea sure and satisfaction, (Hear, hear.) This question of Italy is one which requires in ccnsidering it that we should look a little back. It is about five or six years ago, or more, that the condition of Italy, owing to its critical state, began to attract the deep attention of the House of Commons. Various opinions were then expressed by hon members on both sides of the house as to the position of that country, her future fate, and her possible fortunes. There were then two great opinions which swayed very much the conduct of public men. The first was the great doubt that prevailed whether the unity of Italy was possiole—whether you could mould together seven or eight different nationalities, coun tries with different laws, with almost different languages, and under the influence of different policies. Secondly, there was a consciousness that in any contest in Italy it was a question as to the supremacy either of Austria or France. However the people of England might disapprove what was described by a classical writer as the iron rule of Austria, still we naturally felt jealous of changes and revolutions in Italy which might tend to the aggrandisement of our powerful neighbour and lead to the preponderance of her influence in an alarming degree. With these considerations before us it was not surprising that Parliament and public men should have spoken with much diffidence and some distrust of the commencement of those great changes which we have lived to see and the consequences of which, to a certain degree, we have realised. What seems to us now very easy and plain to comprehend were really some half a dozen years ago poli tical mysteries which the most sagacious could not pene trate and which the boldest could not contemp late without mistrust. (Hear.) What was feared actually took place. Italy was relieved from the power of Austria, but in exact proportion as the power of Austria was diminished the in fluence of France was substituted and maintained. (Hear.) Fortunately for Italy there arose to guide her destinies a statesman of eminent ability. It has been said that Cavour was a man not very scrupulous as to his means. This is a question which I leave with the historian to decide. He may have been unscrupulous in his means, but this all must admit that he was clear in his vision and practical in his policy. (Hear, hear.) He knew what, he wanted, and what he wanted he accomplished. He knew it was possible in the circumstances with which he had to deal, and with the means at his command, to establish a king dom of Italy of considerable power and resources; and, like a wise statesman and true patriot he looked perhaps to a future which would increase the power and multiply the resources of that kingdom. But as far as her Majesty's Government are concerned, they were originally as dis trustful as others of the future of Italy, and their policy was vacillating and timid. I hardly blame them, because they had to act under dark and difficult circumstances, but I say that their policy at the beginning and for some time was not that policy which has been boldly described to night. (Hear.) On the whole I believe her Majesty's Go vernment, instead of assisting the patriotic views of Italian statesmen, instead of consolidating the strength and de veloping the resources of a practical and powerful king dom of Italy, have, either for the sake of objects upon which I do not care to dwell, or from a weak ness of political vision, adopted a policy which has tended to weaken Italy and to distract Europe. (Cheers and mur murs.) This is not a question which can be settled by in articulate means. (A laugh.) I say the policy of the Eng lish Government has laid the foundation of future embar rassment for the world (Hear, hear.) What were the difficulties with which Italy had to contend when, unfor tunately for her interests, Cavour suddenly quitted the at age and she was left without a master mind to guide her for tunes and to mould her destinies ? There were two great influences acting on Italy, which were opposed to that ideal unity which had been the dream of her greatest statesmen for genera;ions, and which, having adopted it from the popular opinion of the day, they suddenly became the pitrons. Those two great influences were the traditional policy of France, which, under every form of government —kingdom, republic. or empire —for reasons which France deemed wise, was hostile to the Court of Rome, which was hostile to a scheme which might not only deprive it of its political estates—a very secondary consideration—but pro duce a revolution in ite position which might bring about consequences throughout the world most adverse to Catholic interests. Hence her Majesty's Government, by announc ing themselves as the patrons of Italian unity, placed them selves in collision with France and Rome. (Hear.) An hon. gentleman cries " H ear, hear," and if he is prepared to sup port a Ministry which dared to struggle with the French Empire and the Roman Court for the unity of Italy, I might doubt the prudence of such a policy, but at least it woul be intelligible to me. If England had chosen, with the sanction of her Parliament and the unanimous approbation of the nation, to throw all her influence into the scale, and to say, what no one doubts, that. Italian unity wouid add to the strength and splendour of Europe and tend to the great advantage of this country, and to devote all her arms and energies to the accomplish ment of that object, she would have pursued a policy which one can understand. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord has taken great credit for his patronage of the independence, freedom, and, above all, unity of Italy. Brave words we have heard in this house from the noble lord. (Hear, hear.) There have been speeches and there have been despatches. Ail that could tend to irritate, and alarm the mighty influ ences that were opposed to Italian unity was, as far words went, called into operation. lam not aware, however, that the noble lord has done more than speak, and write, and indicate a policy—(hear, hear), but he has not ventured to grapple with the great influences arrayed against the policy he patroniz -el. The consequence is the state of things which we now witness—a state of affairs which Cavour would have looked upon, had he lived, with sadness and dismay, which he would have striven to avert, and the fore sight of which would probably have led him to say to Eng land, "Be our active and practical ally, or cease to insult those with whose overpowering resources we must ultimately contend." (Hear.) Since the death of Cavour the programme, to use a fashionable word, of the national party in Italy has been "Movement, development, uni y, Rome,"—immense words—verbs sesquip e d a l ia—used b y men o f v e ry little minds and very slight resources. What have they leant upon ? They have leant upon the support of England. In the English Parliament sonic gentleman, if not with the absolute co-operation of, at least with social encouragement from the noble lord, constantly brought forward the sub ject of the state of Italy. It was let out like a bag-fox, and d fo i l r l e o c w t eedd against a t n s a t full th e Pope, halloo. p e 2 and a promise, Every ye ar we had the noble lord present e d to us as the regenerator of Italy, the saviour of the count ry, and the performance ended with invectives the cheers o f th e honourable member for Brighton and amid dh i i d s friends (a laugh), that Rome should be the capital of a united Italy before the end of the session. (Laughter and cheers.) It was the favourite question of the Govern ment. Indeed, when the Reform Bill was withdrawn, the capture of Rome was the great measure of the Session. (Hear.) And now in what has all this ended ? Cavour withdraws from the scene—no commanding mind in Italy, France naturally jealous of our uncertain and irritating policy, Rome alarmed, Rome and France leagued against the unity of Italy; the noble lord conducting a policy of words, speeches, and despatches ; the Italian Government, without part not to join them in the course which they have pur sued, to which they think I am bound by the part which I took c ome 12 years ago. I take it to be a very great compli•• merit that I should receive from the noble lord and the hon. gentleman so distinguished an expression of opinion on their parts as that they are now pursuing the course, though with reference to different persons, yet on the same prin ciples, which at that comparatively remote period I thought it my duty to pursue. But I am bound to say there is a very material difference between us, and especially between the noble lord and myself. (Hear) The noble lord has visited Italy. He went there enthusiastically attached to Ita'ian freedom—nay, n ore, he was a devoted adherent of the Go vernment of Victor Emmanuel—(hear, hoar, from Lord H. Lennox)—but having, during his visit, observed things which appeared to him painful and disgraceful, although he was aided in every respect by the officers of the Govern ment, although he received from General La Maimora an order which laid open to him the inmost recesses of the prisons, although he states that every prison was under the control ot a man of humanity and intelligence, and although ne was enthusiastically attached to Italy and to the Italian Government as its organ, yet it never occurred to my noble friend that it might be just to give that Government the opportunity of profiting by the researches he had made, but my noble friend though:: it better to conceal the know ledge which he had acquired until he could import it into his own country, and there could deliver it from ene of the seats of the House of Commons amid the cheers of an ad miring audience. (Cheers,) Lord H. LENNOX (who rose amidst loud cries of "Order" from the Government benches) said—My expe riences of the first prison I went to, which resulted in the protest to which I have alluded, were written and signed by me on the express understanding that the paper should be forwarded to the Government of Turin for their informa tion. (' beers.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—That was the prison which I think received at least a qualified approval from my noble friend. (Hear, hear.) But he went to a variety of prisons and amassed a multitude of facts, and his enthusiastic attachment to Italian liberty and to the Government, its organ, did not prevent him coming to the House of Commons and making it and this country the first confidential recipient of what he had seen. (Cheers.) And my noble friend thinks he is walking in my steps. Nothing could be more different. I did not go to Italy as the devoted friend of the Neapolitan Government. I never professed such a thing. (Hear, hear.) But although I was not the devoted friend of the Neapolitan Govern ment, what I saw and heard I did not give to the public at home until everything was brought to the notice of the Neapolitan Government. the course which I took was this—l placed in the hands of Lord Aberdeen, that admirable man who upon one subject had prejudices, pre judices in favour of the Italian Governments, every state ment I had to n ake, and I entreated him, to which he cheerfully consented, to bring the whole of these statements under the view of the Government of Naples before they were made known either to the House of Commons or the public. Well, Sir, it was the deliberate resolution of the Neapolitan Government to take no steps for the removal of the evils which I witnessed that drove me to the steps which I afterwards took. (Cheers.) After what my noble friend has said, it is impossible for a moment to question that he is a most enthusiastic friend of Italian freedom and of the Government which has been supposed to be the organ of the people, having been freely chosen by its suffrages. (Hear.) But I must say if- instead of having those lofty sentiments in favour of Italian freedom, of which he has given us so many assurances, my noble friend had been tainted with ideas the most opposite, if it had been his object to do every thing in his power to discredit all those who are connected with the cause of Italian nationality, I doubt whether he could have taken a better considered course than the one he has pursued, (Cheers.) Sir, I protest against the course which the noble lord has pursued. It was his duty as an im partial Englishman to make these inquiries, but, had it but been in common acknowledgment of the assistance he re • ceived from the Italian Government in prosecuting these investigations, it was also his duty frankly and fearlessly to have laid before them the result of his inquiries, reserv ing his right, if necessary, to appeal to this tribunal. (No, no, and hear, hear.) But that does not, I admit, absolve us from our duty of paying due attention to the statements which the noble lord ha- made. With respect to those state ments and others it will be enough if I refer to what has fallen from my noble friend at the head of the Government. The habits of bad government—(•' Hear, hear," from Sir G. Bowyer.) Will the hon. gentleman be good enough to re strain his enthusiasm, which is always at fever heat on this subject—(cheers and laughter)—•and leave me to pursue my path undisturbed ? (Hear.) Sir, the habits of bad govern ment do not depend on the perverted will of a single individual, although that individual may be a king— nor upon the perverted will of a Cabinet or a Court. They descend with 10,000 fibres through all the ramifications of society, and when the Italian Government succeeded to the possession of power in the Southern provinces of that coun try they did not succeed to a paradise which they have since defiled, but to something like the very reverse of a paradise, and which it will take a protracted time and gigantic la bour to cleanse. (Cheers.) What, for example, is to be done with the hundreds, the thousands, the tens of thousands who in that unhappy country formerly gained an infamous livelihood as gaolers and spies ? Is it to be supposed that a new Government can make a clean sweep of all the func tionaries whom they find in office ? Only gradual reforms can be carried out in the ranks of the official corps in such a country. That reform must begin at the head, and go down to the smaller officials. Has that reform begun ? The noble lord says that in every case at the head of the prisons he found men of humanity and intelligence. (" Hear, hear," from Lord H. Lennox.) Does he suppose that I was permitted to enter every prison and obtain encouragement and assistance from the head ? (Sir G, Bowyer—" Yes.") Does he suppose that I was welcomed as a co-operator and a friend ? No, on the contrary. The statement of my noble friend the member fur Chichester proves that there is much that is lamentable and much that is disgraceful to the im mediate agents in the system that prevails in the south of Italy. But it also proves that even there reform and improve ment have begun, (Hear.) The principal functionaries have been removed and replaced by better men. The light of day has been let into the inmost recesses of the darkest caverns. There is not an abuse or a horror that is not brought freely forward. And the whole of the statements of the hon. member for Taunton were trot the result of researches made by him, but were a reference to discussions in the open air and in open Parliament by the representatives of the Italian people. (Cheers.) Therefore, I say that from the very worst and darkest features of Southern Italy—and some of them, I admit, are very bad and dark—there is ample reward for the past and abundant encourage. ment for the future. (Cheers.) After the speech of my noble friend the member for Chichester came that of the hon. gen tleman the member for Canterbury. I was pleased to hear the right hon. gentleman who has just sat down say that he had listened to that speech with the utmost pleasure and satisfaction. lam only very sorry to remember that the pleasure with which the right hon. gentleman listened to that speech, vivid and intense as it was, was not more largely shared by hon. gentlemen on that side. (A laugh.) My hon, and learned friend the member for Wallingford had, I believe, left his place.—{Mr. MALINS—" No."] Was he there ? Then, lam sorry he did not give more audible expression to his satisfaction. Another hon. friend of mine sitting on that side of the house has expressed the appro bation and sympathy with which he listened to that speech. But I am bound to say—and I think it better to say such things in this house, instead of going to Slough or else where and there delivering in animated language a descrip tion of the effect which particular speeches produce in this house—that I never perceived a more marked change come over the spirit of a portion of the House of Commons than that which came over the spirit of those who occupy the benches opposite, and especially the front bench, between the time of the speech of the noble lord to which hon. mem bers opposite listened with such perfect rapture and the time when they listened with unbroken silence and almost despondency to the remarkable reasoning of the hon. mem ber for Canterbury. (Cheers.) So far as my ears can bear witness to the reception of a speech, the courage of which was not less remarkable, considering the hon. member's short experience, than its ability—the silence on that side during the whole of its clear, manly, and powerful reasoning on be half of the Italian Government was only relieved by the cheers which the hon. member received from those who support and approve the Italian policy of the Governmen (Cheers and counter cheers.) However, as regards the state of Southern Italy, in the first place we have got publicity and in the second place we have gat from the agents of the Go vernment co-operation in the work of improvement. Both these facts were established by the speech of the noble lord. (Hoar, hear.) I agree with him that this is not all that could be desired, and I am confident that the endeavours of my noble friend (Lord Palmerston) and of the Government will be directed to those humane aims which he has in view —(hear)—and that the Italian Government being appealed to in a friendly and respectful tone, and with the fullest acknowledgment of its independence, will not resent these disclosures—somewhat churlish though the manner may be —but will feel that those who, from whatever motive, when horrors and abuses exist, drag those horrors and abuses into the light of day, co-operate with them, whether they mean it or not, in the sacred objects they have in view, and will gladly avail themselves of that assistance. I will now say a few words on the speech which we have just heard from the right hon. gentleman. Ido not know with what impressions hon. members listened to that speech, I own 1 could better understand the critical and negative than the positive and affirmative portions of that speech. As to the critical and negative portion, it appeared from the clear summary the right hon. gentleman gave us that in everything her Majesty's Government have said and in everything they have done—in everything they have omitted and committed, they have been entirely wrong—(laughter) —that their efforts have been misjudged from first to last— that they have been odious to all parties, and disastrous to everyone concerned. (Opposition cheers.) That is, I think, a fair summary of the right hon. gentleman's speech, and I am glad it is echoed back as such. Well, that is the part which England, according to the right hon. gentleman, has taken in respect t., the Italian question. From the right hon. gen tleman I appeal to the Italians themselves. (Cheers,) It said we ought to teach the Italians to depend upon them selves. In like manner we ought to leave them to judge for '' themselves, and I say that they will not concur in the state• meat of the right hon. gentleman as an impartial &scrip- tion opinion of the the proceedi ngs ltalians themselves o e f m h s e e r l ve l s aj l b st el y i s e v G e o t v o be ern th men is t it Tl the aid of material force from England they neither expect nor desired, but that the aid of our moral force and influell was to be expected,and had beenof great yinri lasting bens to the cause of Italy. (Cheers.) I appeal next from the rig hon. gentleman in vindication of the policy of her Majest3 Government to the people of E ng l an d. (Cheers.) For think the right hon. gentleman, let him select his own al dience at Slough or elsewhere—(oh, oh, and cheers)—w. find it diffi cu lt t o b r i ng hi mself anywhere, t h rcug laouttl length a n d breadth of the land, i n con t a ct, in the free 141 of day, with English opinion without learning, on the 00 : trary, that— no t on l y f rom party politics, but lik e wise, n! l . inconsiderable deg ree , abs ve an d b eyon d an d indepena el of party p o liti cs —th e course ta k en b y her Ma j es ty's Geyev .„ ment ever since it s access i on t o o ffi ce w i t h respec t to the It lien question has brought a deep, hearty, and affectionai response from the all but unanimous people of Eng le . ll ! (Cheers.) Si r , t o t hi s tr ib unal I lodge my appeal eglt the judgme n t d e li vere d b y the right hon. gentlema n. when I speak of the positive parts of the speech of the rig' hon. gentleman, to what do they amount ? Now, w hat ax his opinions about I ta ly ? (H ear, and laughter. ) Last 31-144 we thought we understood them. I have not got his sPe e f, by me, and my memory i s sometimes treac h ero us-41 hon. Member—" Hear, hear," an d l aug ht e r] ; bu t thought th e r i g h t h onoura b le gentleman was safgei elltit ~. explicit. He told us , I thi n k , t h at the ques ti o n eim; might become of th e p o liti ca l r i ghts of t h e subjece, of the Pope was a matter of infinitely small cons quence, but that the maintenance of the temporal P o/ve r of the Pop e , w ith a v i ew to securing his spiritual ~ pendence, was a matter o f the utmost concern, in which all Europe wa s i n t ereste d . That, I think, wa s the effe ° ' ,,l the speech of the right hon. gentleman. Does he a dhere; that opinion now? Has he made any progress in his ° to sideration of the It a li an quest i on ? (Laughter.) I am to say that in my opinion he has not yet got to the ac" rt and root of the matt er , b ut f rom partial indications Buell 00 I have not observ e d i n hi s di scourses before I th i n k he ', made a certain progress, and, possibly, if he be assisted and encouraged, he may hereafter get on a little further; (laughter)—for the right hon. gentleman to-night has d a covered that Cavour was a great man—(cheers au laughter)—and that he did muc h f or hi s country , and t,, she has s uff ere d great l y b y h i s removal. Unfortutlaw j, : some time has elapsed; it is not a considerable period eil l bt the death of that great man, and it has taken the r i g a , hon, gentleman not o n ly th e w h o l e d uration of C av our'S; is —(" oh. oh I" and c h eers )—b ut some two years after death, to make thes e di scover i es about t h e gen i us a nd the services he rendered to hi s coun t ry. Th en the right lit)0. gentleman says it would b e an exce ll ent t h ing— l think -"I d understood him, but I speak with the greatest deference/ 1 ' with many scruples ev en , as if I were endeavour i n g to de; cipher some obscure telegram,or to read some ancient Man i ; script with charact ers muc h d e f ace d . (Laughter.) ir4o is the spirit i n w hi c h I approach the speech of the rvars hon. gentl eman , an d en d eavour to construe it. In one Pea I did thi n k I h ear d something drop from him to the e ir that the erection of Italy into a great State, with su b11$ :0; five power a n d se lf-di rected action, would be for the bella of Europe a n d o f E ngland, If I understand him rigillo I beg to c ongratulate him en having given utteraneeare that opinion, because I think it shows that his opfnienly not in a fossil st a t e ,— t h ey are now growing and de/° . l ing, and that th ere i s no saying what he may come ic; last. (Cheers and laughter.) But although I tenderlllo these compliments, b e th ey worth much or little, , bound to say that I am obliged to offer them with verY c° oo siderable res erve; b ecause, although it is one's duty °lir,. every pro m i s i ng i ndication of the policy of future Geve lo ments — (hear, hear) —it i s excee di ng l y i mportant that , 01 , and the peopl e o f E ngland should know what is the I° I now favoured upon that bench. (Loud cheers.) Fo r ,b e must take n o ti ce t h at t h ere were parts of the speech of " right hon. gentleman which still suggests to my wi nd In givings, and even, I will frankly own, awakening rell nance. The r i g h t h on. gentleman deprecates elt,,,rey ews in Italy. Wh at d o extreme views mean i n Italy he mean this—these who think Italy ought to be Italy are r t r abr of extreme vi ews . (H ear.) What is the position of I if at present f It is such as the case of England would b e Cornwall and Dev ons hi re were in the possession of one f ob, reign power, and if L on d on was garrisoned by another s oh, and che ers .) I t hi n k if that were the state of facts ri England, we should find that a very large number of t r, sons were posses se d w i t h th ose extreme views. (Red,'l3;--til and laughter) —a n d wou ld not altogether be satisfied-014 they had seen th e one P ower driven out of Cornvit lB ;,as Devonshire, and the troops of the other dislodged from don. In one point I entirely agree with the right hon' : tleman, and I agree more fully with his friend the P i l ot member for Canterbury. I believe the hon. mem ber jd Canterbury in that excellent speech which he deliver ed 6. „ l : nothing more true, m ore j ust, or more wise than this'l, the true course for the Italian Government was not „ t° , o 4 diverted by their p o liti ca l o bj ects, however inoportan',4, essential, from civil object. (Hear, hear.) The first du a Government undoubtedly is to look to the laws, the tenance of order, and the wellbeing of society in tll e , o ate tory within its control. These sentiments are comp: l°l ;W right hen. gentle man an d the hon. gentleman the arS for Canterbury ; b u t h ow diff erently were they used by , two. The hon. mem b er for Canterbury used them in de feB; of the conduct of the Italian Government, showing, as 7 , as his judgment went, that they were sensible of their ( 11 1 1 0$ and that this duty constituted their primary obligation. P io not ono word fell from the mouth of that hon. gentleinalltb„ disparagement of the ulterior duty of seeking to bring oo country of Italy t o it s i ntegr i ty and its unity. (ilear'), right hon. gentleman quoted the member for Canter somebody sometimes quotes Scripture. (Oh, laughtt'r for cheers) He quoted th e sound doctrine of the noerati—bits Canterbury with r egar d t o the primary, everyday, irldollx to able, impe ra ti ve d uty of the Italian Government to lo the organisation of the country it possesses, for a very it ferent purpose; h e a ll u d e d to it in order to ground 11 Y - t he the doctrine of political finality—the doctrine that 4 Italian wh o thi n k s Rome the natural and ne clo capital of a stro ng an d permanent Italian kinguA°ai ie 00 - to be put d own e i t h er as a revolutionist or as a dre-010, He alluded to it for the purpose of e stablishing h that the pres en t s t a t e of things in Italy is ter'teaP" garded territorially, th oug h not civilly, as final. :1-8011 pears to me that th e generos i ty of the right hon. gentle to the Italian p eop l e consists in this, that he N'Tpi'Lnd them everything th a t h e cannot take from them. laughter.) At a former period the right hon. gell t t, was, I think, an a d vocate of federation. But the ;ig' federations has gon e b y, an d Italian freedom has ; 0 00 cated itself ov er so vast a proportion of the fen" sod that now there is no longer room for that sch e ,,. ° 4 B ; arS the right hon. gentleman, forgetting the things t."'" 10 1, past, ab an d ons federation, and says, ic All veil hoe but don't l e t us go further. " I confess I have a„-dfir that when the patience, moderation, intelligence, ee," . cipline, and self -command which the Italian ;dir have shown in so extraordinary a degree shall, in tlietoral dom of Pr ov id ence, at some early period bear their 01j3i0tt and proper fruit i n t h e acquisition of other territory Wbotte in moral ri g ht b e l ongs to them—(cheers)—when thectea got it, and w h en i t b ecomes o b vious that it cannot be zer from them, w e s h a ll h ave among ot h ers the right herbb'ted tleman walking in the rear of the triumphal car-0 814 00 0 —and joini n g th e w h o l e p eo pl e o f E ngland in their gee -t acclamations upon so happy a consummation. .8111ci/ say that it critical ti mes were to come, I have 0", - l nog eat confidence in the right hon. gentleman's Italian f ee ';„ de If there were to be a reaction, if foreign force we re /ea something towards b rea ki ng up what is now united In t ate I feel no absolut e conf i dence in my own mind that right hon. g en tl emen would not fall back on his tlec of federation. H e i s , I am afraid, in an i n n/la d :3 o A (laughter)—his mind greatly wants to be strengthe lle g a l ea encouraged in the g oo d cause, an d nothing will strinaoolo4 and encourag e it so muc h as a strong and universaL, osif: ration in fav our o f I ta l y on the part of the people 14 a tliP land. And let the right hon. gentleman understa n v fe it will n o t d o f or hi m, i t will not do for his friends, lose culcate those equivocal doctrines—(cheers)—to l itter i •glo ° ambiguous sounds in th e f ace o f t h e nation, which "a'up its made up its mi n d t o anyt hi ng on earth, has mad e mind to this, that Italy ought to be one and ti la ' a the ought to be free. (Loud cheers.) It; on one 11811 ; 1 40 policy of he r M a j es t y ' s Government has not operate" test the charm of magic, still less is it true, on the 0 02° 7 10 00 4 it has irrit a t e d t h ose with whom we ought to c e , th e alliance, Too well does France appreciate, too well d e i on Emperor of the French understand the action of oP to in this country to suppose that any Government tattle! ! construed as feeling o th er th an t h e most friendlyl i e- it de' towards France, be cause on occas i ons of this kil l ' 0 0: not dissociate itself from the universal enthusiast ic 0 f tions of the English people. Although the Pel ic Y l a . Zvi Government may not have operated, as I have 81 • 11 . 0 00te magic force in precipitating events towards a eellitioted to tion so glorious that, perhaps, it could hardly be elcP be reached except aft er some tract of time, ye t that o ' ors bir I assert, has bee n l en i en tl y, indulgently, and of 171 _, 1 judged. Nay m ore; it constitutes one of the titles eople „ noble friend t o th e con fid ence and approval of t ile Lived 11 : 1 (cheers),—b ecause th ey b elieve it has been e el ' wise and equity and justice, an d th a t i s di recte d towa rds towards a righteous end. (Enthusiastic cheering') 011 The amendment was then withdrawn. The 11„,., od°. we into Committee of Supply, and immediately row - zea lot' The Offences (South Africa) Bill and the N ew Boundaries Bill were read a second time. OOR R BILL. bill Sir H. BRUO P E moved the EMOVAL second reading ° f bill . b . Mr. DUNLOP moved as an amendmen t that tb e read a second time that day six months. Mr. AYttTON seconded the amendment. The house divided. The numbers were-- 9 For the second reading ................ 63 Against it ............................ 49 Ma j o rity .................... The bill was thus lost. The house adjourned at 25 minutes to 2 o'cleet. Ot London : Printed a n d P u bli s h e d by WILLIAI II I eps f o. ' fi r of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at uE Surf Olu c t .; oti pti ° Strand, in the Precinct of the T 3avoy,l ll ile w hitddleaex.—Saturday, May 9, Ma, THE SUN, LONDON. SATURDAY EVENING', MAY 9, 1863,