The Sun. — London, England, 1833-02-15 00:00:00

Dublin, though now a psor corporation, had yet the -dis posal, including the payment of the police, of 50,0001. a year ; and this corporation, as he bad before stated, was to dose, that, although for forty years Catholies were eli gible to it. no Catholic was yet elected. Mr. ROCHE (as we were informed) next addressed the House. He was not audible in the gallery. Sir F. BURDETT, in explanation, stated that what be had said was to the effect, that, seeing the good feelings and intentions evinced by the Government in their mea sure.of Irish Church Reform, this should be a strong se curity to the Irish Members that any extraordinary powers intrusted , o the Ministry would not he abused. Mr. BARRON expressed his ratification at the mea sures brought forward by his Majesty's Government. An HON. MEMBER, as an instance of the abuses which existed, could state that, in Truro, ten individu als usurped the rights of the inhabitants, and returned two Members to misrepresent that borough. Mr. PETRE congratulated the country upon the in quiry which was proposed by the Noble Lord, as it afforded an earn. at of the further intentions of his Majesty's Go vernment to reform abuses and purify the establishments of the country. After a few words from Mr. CHRISTMAS and Mr. BARRON, the ques•inn was put, and the motion carried. Sir ROBERT INGLIS begged to ask the Noble Lord whether it was intended that the Committee should have the power of requiring the charters of corporate bodies to be produced, as in that case he apprehended the Corn. mittee would have a power which had. not hitherto been conferred ? Lord ALTHORP replied that it would be left to the discretion of the Committee what infor rnati,n it would require, and it was not pro posed to give it any power beyond what bad been usual tap to the present time. It could not, therefore, do any thing incompatible with the duties of Committees in general. Mr. O'CONNELL observed that it would he impossible to make the inquiry without the charters. Tile Committee was then appointed. LAW REFORM. The SOLICITOR GENERAL rose to move for leave to bring in five Bills to remedy a few of the abuses which existed in some branches of the law. The first Bill was to abolish fin , s and recoveries, and to make a simple deed sufficient for what had hitherto required so many incon venient and expensive forms. The next subject was the Statute of Limitations, upon which he proposed that there should be a general limitation of 20 years, and that, after an adverse possession of that duration, all claims should cea-e. The third subject was the law of entail ; and here he proposed that a fattier should be entitled to inherit to his son, and a brother to his brother. The next subject was tie law of dower. He proposed, in analogy with the law of personal property, that where a wife had a right of dower out of real property. she should only derive it out of that of which the husband died seised, and which he did not dispose of by will. In this alteration he intended to preserve vested rikh•s, and to make it only prospective. The only other subject to which he had to call the atten tion of the House seas the law of conatery. He proposed that the husband should have a claim upon his wife's estate, whether she had children or not ; but that if she had had children by a former marriage he should take only half. He wished to say one word upon the measure of which his Hon. and Learned Friend the Member for Southwark Lad given notice relative to a general registry of deeds. He adhered to his opinion of the importance of that measure, and it should have his most zealous sup port. He looked upon the manner in which the registry under the Reform Act worked as an additional recommen dation in favour of a general registry of deeds. Mr. O'CONNELL begged to ask the Hon. and Learned Gentleman whether these Bills were to extend to Ireland ? The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said it would be very satisfactory to him to make the law conformable in both countries, but there was some difficulty in doing so, for there was some difference between the law of limitations in Ireland and that which prevailed in England. Mr. O'CONNELL begged to suggest, tbat all the Bills should be made to include Ireland, and when the House came to consider that relating to the statute of limitations Ireland might either be omitted, or the law be so arranged as to be the same in both countries. Leave was then given to bring in the Bill. 3lr. GODSON de!erred till Tuesday his motion re specting patents. CORPORATION FEES. Mr. JERVIS rose to . move for leave to bring in a Bill to regulate the mode of admission to municipal corporations. Lord ALTHORP did not intend to oppose the bring iog in of this Bill, but he believed that the subject matter of it must corns before the Committee. - 31 r. JERVIS then withdrew his motion. ELECTION PETITIONS. - Mr. GOULBURN rose to call upon the House to exer cise its power to postpone the consideration of an election petition beyond the day appointed for it. The petition from the borough of Coleraine complained that certain freem , n who were entitled to vote had been refused per mission to register their votes by the Registering BarriS ten., and their votes accordingly were not received. Tire question fur the Committee to try would be, whether the Registering Barrister had properly exercised his discretion in not admitting those who claimed a right to vote. After a few words from Mr. LITTLETON,Mr. OTONNEL, and Lord Althorp, the original question and the amend ment were put, nil strangers were ordered to withdraw, but no division took place. Mr. GOULBURN then moved, that the order for taking into consideration the Coleraine petition be discharged, when, Aft r a few words from the AnortNEY- GENERAL and Mr. LEFROY. it was put and negatived without a division_ SINECURES AND PENSIONS Mr HUNIE rose to call the attention of the House to a subject which he deemed of the utmost importance. The state of ti e country loudly demanded the most rigorous economy on the part of the Government ; and the Pali!. inent were hound to relieve the country from its present burdens. On a former occasion he had complained of his Majesty's speech, for omitting to notice, as he thought it ought to have done, the sufferings and distress of the people, and their demands for reduced taxation. He was, however, willing to believe, that the Ministers were gnnvinced of the necessity of reducing the amount of ex penditure. Another part of the complaint he h,d thee urged was the recommendation of half measures towards Ireland. He was happy to be able to say that the motion of the Noble Lord two nights since had agreeably disap pointed him on the so,jeet of that complaint.—(Hear.) Ti e measure which the Noble Lord then brought torwai d was one of peace and couciliation—(Hear, hear)—and he had no doubt it would he received in Ireland as such..,.- (Hear.) The measure which the Noble Lord had this night introduced was one of the next itegree of impor tance to Parliamentary Reform, and be trusted would be found satisfactory to the people of all the great towns of this country.—(Hear.) As he had before complained of what he thought to be the inattention of Ministers to these subjects, he now begged leave to return them his thanks for what they had done.—(Hear, hear.) Next in importance to these two great subjects, was that of Telieving the people from taxation ; and, under the leeline that it wos so, he thought he could not do better than ;:;:ing forward the rittewion of which he had given n ,0,. e . . He slbaild have been glad to postpone it till after t h e ji,;idget bad been produced ; and he would have done so, had not a circumstance which had just occurred forced it on hits and on the House—he alluded to a statenient which had appeared in the newspapers of the death of a Gallant Officer, the Governor of Berwick. That cir cumstance, coupled with what had occurs d in the last Pal liament with respect to the Governorship of London deny, to which the Honourable Member for Poole had been appointed, had influenced him in at. once submitting the presint motion to the House. , He had then entered his protest against the principle of such appointments ; and what he was now about to do, he should do in the hope of preventing this appointment taking place, and of preventing all others of the same kind. He believed that since the last session some of these appointments had been trade. On'e, for instance, was that of the Lieutenant of the Tower. Now, such appointments must be prevented if that reduction of expenditure which the country required was to take place. \Vtat was the state of .the finances of the country ? On the sth of July last there was a balance of 1,240,000/. of expenditure beyond the receipts. That fact, in the eighteenth year of peace, was one which would make everybody—every man of sense—agree with him in saying, did not show a good, state of finances. Actor ling to the stateuront.whieb flintotle - Lorif ma de at the end of the last. P session. of,atlhitient;',:hintcipted that in the year ett4ng onithe sth of April' ifexl;).ll 4 e,rl; would be a surplus of 773,000/. H e h o p e d t h a t the. NO4e Lord's anticipations would prove correct, but no onec,ould be sure that they would. However, supposing that ,they were then deducting that surplus from the deficiency of last year, it would leave a deficiency on tile two years' accounts of only 476,000/. ; so that the people might see that if they wished to avoid an increase of loans, they must have new taxes in order CO meet that deficiency. What, theniol:.'ll . Cupie to do ? They must look en,every -3,10,,,-,-,,,,,,,,4 t o s.c;i4veriyg,!h„t: mcol.oitxecluri‘- an ex s P a e n n d d ite,ysrt.* lotecrUtle'lsts"tTelyYf I r7lruveC •lataa r all that I"' tha l t x. iiiii4e,iessaryspiu the avi*e(i2exi;etiqi.ftiiOher , Fv. ld . sat adopt tireilucti ref which'thi' edudtrt,,,wksju ( - want. They - must a t. / • all useless and SUperiluoul, el, 1 , , ~. . -,'/... It.i. •- • -; - , , ---- tf ... , places and pensions. That was now the question. If the House should divide tonight on his motion, it would have had the opinion of six Parliaments taken on it; for he had already taken the sense of five Parliaments on the question of giving these useless offices to military men. He was aware that the Noble Lord could tell him now, as on a former occasion, that he must not count on the Noble Lord's vote for that ; that vote had never been with him on this question, when the Noble Lord sat on his side of the House. That was quite true ; but still he must say that he thought the Noble Lord's opinions mis taken -on the question. The objection might be made that this was a partial question, and that the House ought in,t to decide about Londonderry or Berwick, hut upon the question of principle itself. He agreed with that objection now, and he thought that in this Parliament we should look to principles ; hitherto every question had been a question of expediency, of interest, and of party favour; and the consequences of any one question had never been fairly dealt with. In this new Parlia ment he hoped it would he different. If Ireland had loudly demanded relief, and Ministers had wisely granted it. did not England want relief in a similar manner ? Every, or almost every Member, who had appeared before a populous zonstituency, must have been called upon to give his utmost support to measures of econo my and retrenchment. He knew that there were some e inservative constituencies—the Universities of Cambridge and Oxford for instance—(A laugh)—where this had not been done ; but then they 'were exceptions to the rule, for everywhere else the people had loudly demanded relief from unnecessary taxation (all proper burdens they were most willing to bear)—(Hear) —relief front sinecures and un merited pensions. With the last of these he had now nothing to do. The question he should now submit to the House was, whether sinecures should be continued or not? He should read to the House a paper that would exemplify the evils of these sinecures, and he ought to tell them that it was not a paper which he had made for this occasion, but which he had treasured up rid an occasion should arise to bring it forward. It was a return made to that House in 1816, and it was signed " H. Goulburn," whom he took to be ,he proper officer to return it. The document stated that the Hon. H. C. Windham, Vie Secre tart' and Clerk of Enrolments in Jamaica, received for that office a sum of 4.5001. a year; tt , at he lad been in po•ses sion of it since 1763. and during the whole of that time had resided in England. On the whole, that gentleman had received a sum of 238 0001. of the pulilic money for a sinecure office. The next person mentioned was the lion. Percy Windham, who had received from another sinecure office the sum of 334,0001. There were four other sinecures mentioned in the same paper, amounting in the whole to 1,062,0001., which seven individuals had received, in a course of years, from the public money. Cal culating interest and compound interest on the sums paid to these individuals, they would appear enormous, and the sum would be more formidable when it was recollected, that while the country had interest to pay on money bor rowed, every farthing expended that was not merited, was so much in reduction of the means of paying the in- serest of our debt—(Hear, bearj—and every such pay ment must be calculated at so much compound interest until our debt was paid off. For that reason he had al ways objected to pensions in reversion—for that reason he had objected to that granted to the Speaker by the late Parliament, and he had shown that Speaker Onslow and his son had, in th it manner, received a sum of 389,0001. of the public Money for the fourteen years' service he had rendered in that House. Thee statements were not ex agger tied, for it was evident that if the money thus ex ended on sinecures had been left in the public treasury, it would have lessened the loans that had been contracted to that precise amount, and the country would have been so much the richer. He did not speak of individuals, but of the public revenue. The sums we paid were almost incredible, and in order to pay them we had often been obliged to have recourse to loans. He complained of the I ist Parliament for not having done what they ought with regard to sinecures 'and useless places. The present Parliament would act differently, and if he complained of the last Parliament, be did so, because he thought he bad more right than any other man to make such complaints One thing, however, had been gained, and it was a matter of great importance. If no other good had bee❑ obtained by getting the Tories out of the saddle, there was at least this—that the mystery of these places and sinecures could be kept up no longer. The people had now got behind the curtain, and the secrets were known. He asked this new Parliament—this Reformed Parliament—whe- ther it was or was not prepared to start on sound principles ?—(Hear, hear, hear.) If it were prepared. let it go with bim--(Cheers and laughter)—if he proved that hi was . right.—(Hear.) He should have little difficulty in 'establishing that point, if unshackled reason - were allowed to aot, and if Hon. Members dis carded all notions of temporary expediency. He could not believe that there was a man on the Treasury Bench who could refuse to accompany him in a division, let the result be what it might. It was material for him to show, that the principle he .wished to - fix was not new ; for it was One which even an' unreformed Parliament bad adopted. In the session of 1809-10, a Finance Committee was appointed, of which' Mr. Banker', the late Member for Dorsetsbire, was the Chairman ; and among oth4r matters, it made inquiries into pensions, sinecures, and re• Versions. The result of that investigation he (Mr. Hume) earnestly recommended to the attention of every man who was anxious to ascertain the amount of the evil, and the opinions of the day upon it. He referred the House, therefore, to the third report of the Finance Committee and its voluminous appendages, in the understanding of which, the orders made yesteiday, on the motion of the lion. Member for Perth, and himself, would be of con sidet able assistance. That Finance Committee consisted of many men more conservative than any now sitting in the House ; and nobody could accuse its Chairman of entertaining many, or perhaps any of the opinions he (Mr. Hume) professed, excepting that, now and then, the de sire of economy n the part of Mr. Bankes was stronger than that which existed even in his mind. After great deliberation, two resolutions, founded upon the report, were brought before the House by the Member for Bodmin (Mr. Davies Gidil)). They were proposed on the 31st of May, 1810, and the first was—" That the utmost atten tion to economy in all the branches of the expenditure is'a great and important duty." That resolution was adopted by an unreformed House of Commons, and he (Mr. Hume) only called upon the reformei House to follow the example. The second resolution was as follows : " That for this purpose, in addition to the useful and effective measures already adopted by Parliament for the abolition and regulation of sinecure offices and offices exe cued by deputy, it is expedient to extend the like prin ciples to the abolition and regulation to such other cases, as may appear to require and admit of the same." Toe Committee, after going through all the details with the most laudable industry, recognised this principle, and he hoped that the House would affirm it—that no money should be paid where services were not performed, or had not been performed.—(HearAear.) It would appear from the 65th volume of the Jollinals, that when these resolutions were firought before the House, an amendment was made and adoiged, stating -that the principle in the report should be extended as soon as Ims3lajesty should he enahhtf to recompecse extraordinaryiserviees by other means. It Bill was accordingly- Introdoced fait the pur pose, and under it some of the Membeiff of tee 'leresent Parliament, add others who were not Members, we'rre in ' the enjoyment of : pensiona. Any HOP. Getftleman ed fu would read the Wrible proceeding, could not Alt to con* to the conclusion at - id:bleb be had arrived, that*lter it Government was bound io;abolish all sinecures o as rapidly, as possible—some, indeed, • A they had fallen in -had hi en'' abolished, but the specific queslien as to military and l naval sinecures, had not yet beeri' - hrought before Par liament. He now introduced it, and ; , called upon the House to carry into other branches the principle adopted in 1810. It was particularly fortunate that since he had given notice of the pre . sent motion, the 7.qoble Lord (Althorp) had evinced . a decided disposition to accord in it, by stating his intention to bring in a Bill to abolish all sinecures where three .years service had not been per formed. The Noble Lord, therefore, could not get otet of the difficulty otherwise than by going through with the principle... His notice clenched the matter, unless the Noble Lord could show, either that art argument, which applied to one man, did not apply to another, or that the King had some se parate fund applicable to these payments. He was bound to suppose that the great mass of those who now supported Ministers were economically inclined ; and if any faith were to be put in words there could be no doubt that the Members of the Cabinet would rejoice in taking any steps to promote a saving of the public money. He might quote upon this point the declarations of many ; but-he would only briefly refer to a speech delivered by the Noble Lord now on the Woolsack, when .Itlr.' ‘Brougham. To the Right Honourable Baronet, the First Lord of the Ad miralty, he'need surely pot appeal on re question of this ikind ; he (Me. - Hume)" "assure of his irate.; he had been eaipillar of Reform and retren chment when. out of o ffi ce, andshis speech on the eums;paid to Privy CounsellMes priuld.:long be . reinembered.--(Cheers.) He hoped the '11414". Iton u parcinet (Sir J. GrahAM) would not now 'f!tirliW o jieek, Ir t ek for granted, that now he had the 'power., he : tell to carry into effect his own princi- Pfeseelle (Mr. 1-Tii4e) cared not a pin for the opinions, of . any man out of office - if *hen in office he . did not adhere to titt , rn, and do his utmost to give effect to them.—(Cheent.) lc. )vas desirable, therefore, that the Right Honourable Ba- ronet oa this occasion should satisfy the people of England who looked up to him with confidence, that he bad not changed his sentiments. _ . Sir J. GRAHAM said, across the table, that they were not changed. - - Mr. HUME was glad to hear it ; he had begun his re ference to the Rigt t Hon. Baronet by saying that he did not think he could have changed. In the same spirit, Mr. Brougham, in a celebrated speech, had called upon thy House " not to disregard the universal voice of the nation loudly calling for retrenchment,"and, after charging the then Government with not having paid due attention to that voice, he went on to complain that " those who refused to listen to the call for economy, in utter disregard of the feelings of an insulted nation, proceeded from one wasteful exp:nditure to another." He (Mr. Hume) did not mean at all to charge the present Government with doing so, and he only made this quotation to show the strong sentiments of Members who then sat upon the Op position side of the House. Civil sinecures having thus been in a great degree abolished, he begged to ask what reason there was that military and naval sinecures should not share the same fate? lie had been told that the amount was small 7 -that it was not worth notice—and that, at the present moment, old gallant officers ought not to be deprived of this paltry reward of their services. He remembered even to have formerly heard a Member en j,ying one of these pensions assert, that he thought it more honourable than a grant front Parliament. Sure he was, that no man in the army or n ivy who.deserved well of his country, would fail to be amply rewarded by a vote of the House, and sure he was, also, that had he the same claim upon the gratitude of his country, he should prize such a public tribute ten times beyond the value of any sinecure. (Hear.) Then he should form one of a band not to he pointed out by the finger of scorn, but to be pointed out by the finger of admiration. Oa one occasion, when the Right Ho., Baronet brought forward the case of the Governor of Dartmouth, he (Mr. Hume) remembered that there was a division upon the question. Let not the House be startled at the small amount of t e proposed saving ; for a , though the aggregate exceeded 33,0001., the suns to which the particular vote applied was only 1751 One objection taken was, that the Governor was a civilian, not a mili tary man ; and it appheil also to the Governors of St. Kitts and 'Montserrat, who had been appointed from Par liamentary or family interest. He (Mr. Hume) admitted that such sinecures were often given to worthy men ; but has objection was, that they were sometimes bestowed upon the unworthy, who stained the merit of all the rest. —(Cheers.) Since the last Parliament, General Loftus had been Lieutenant of the Tower. Who was appointed to succeed him ? No doubt a poison of high rank, of long standing in the army, and of eminent public services— the Earl of Munster.—(Cheers.) If that Noble Lord had been brought before the House for the reward of his services, not a single hand would have been held up for him.—(Cheers.) Every body knew how the thing had been done ; and he could hardly blame those who, under the circumstances, had yielded. He did not instance the Gove: norship of Windsor Castle ; because a Committee to which he (Mr. Hume) belonged, had abolished the salary, and he did not object to any honours that might be be stowed ; they might be scattered as widely as any body pleased, provided they were spread among the deserving. If they were conferred upon the undeserving as well as the deserving, the aristocracy must take care of themselves. But who was Governor of the Tower now ? Lord Fre. d. rick Fi.zclarence, who had been appointed to the office after Lord Munster bad been made Constable of Windsor Castle. This fact he had from the newspapers, and as they some , itnes told stories, for aught he knew, this might be one. But who was Lord F. Fitzelarence, and did he come within the list of old meritorious officers? If such an appointment had been forced upon Ministers, ought nut the House to protect them from such influence ? The saute Noble Lord had also an appointment in the Royal Household. Sir J. C. HOBHOUSE observed that no salary was annexed to it. Mr. HUME was sorry for it, if be hail any real duties to discharge; he disliked volunteer services from any men where there was any business to be done, for, like Hono rary Secretaries, they were sure to slip into some good thing or other at last.—(Cheers and laughter.) Who was this gallant and deserving veteran who now held the Lieuten ancy of the Tower? He entered the Coldstream Guards on the 12th of May, 1814, so that he had never heard a shot fired. Sir J. C. HOBHOUSE reminded the Hon. Member that the battle of Waterloo was subsequent to May, 1814. Mr. HUME—True ; he had forgotten the battle of Waterloo..--(Cheers and laughter.) Wont I any Member, who cheered so loudly tell him that Lord Frederick Fitz clarence was at Waterloo?—(Hear, hear.) This was an instance, therefore, of the manner in which military sine cures were abused. He begged it to be clearly under stood, that he wished to deprive no military or naval man of the due reward of his services, and he hoped that the country would never be backward in giving that reward —(Hear, heir)—but he wished that all should be openly done, and then he should not find, of the one hundred and thirty Colonels in the army, so many who did not stand well even in the opinion of the army. He did not himself profess to be able to judge of the particular and individual merits of those officers, but be knew that not a few were indebted to family interest and influence. The House was not, aware, perhaps, how many of I hese sinecures existed. The Governor and Lieutenant-Governor of Berwick were nun-resident, and there were, besides, a Town. Adjutant and a Major ; when he (Mr. Hume) was last there, be had been curious to learn something regarding the garri son, and he found that it was a mere mockery so to call it, and there was not a single piece of arti lery in the place. Wherever non-residence and no duties were combined, he put it to the Noble Lord whether be could maintain such a sinecure in the face of a distressed people demand. ing a repeal of taxation ? He would be the first to resist any unreasonable expectation on the part of the people; he had done so, and he would do so again were it necessary, though, as they only erred from ignorance-- and ignorance was fast disappearing—it was less likely that hesh, uld be required to oppose the public wishes. Whether naval and military sinecures ought to be reduced immedi ately was not the question, but whether sinecures ought to be the means of rewarding services. It was a plain mat ter, and no mystification could confuse it. He would run Over a few of the offices to which be objected :—The Go vernor of Blackness Castle wa- non-resident; the Go vernor of Csrlisle and his Deputy were non-resident. At Ches er he did not know whether there was or was not a garrison. He begged to say that he should be sorry need lessly to introduce any names, and would mention no more than those of the Noble Lords of whom he liad necessarily already spoken. If Ministers were not strong enough to withstand the influence to which he had referred in those appointments, he said again, let the House of Commons interpose to protect them..:-..(Cbeers.) It merit existed, let it be brought before the same House for its reward ; and the claim, if well founded, would never he rejected.—(Hear.) He was sure that the Noble Lord and his colleagues meant to act honestly and fairly by the people, and he (Mr. H.) could not h. 1p thinking that they would be most happy in the opportunity of showing their attach ment to a sound principle, that reward should attend real services, while the were at the same time protected from unoue influence. The Governors of the Leeward Islands; of the Virgin Islands, of Montserrat, of Grenada, Sr. Kitt's, and Dominica t were non-resident, and two of them he believed, were civilians. The salary for Dominica was 8661. a year, and" - the others were lower. 11 the Noble Lord, on the motion of the Right Hon. Baronet, ' , toted against the Governor of Dartmouth, because he was Ciciviliatr, he was boiind to vote against the two Civil Governors of St. Kitts and Montserrat. The Right 'Hod Baronet (Sir'J. Grahani) had recently laid ilb'svitun excellent principle in the. case of Sir H Neale ; he truly said that the-duties of PO'rt Admiral and of re presetithtive in the House of Commiins were inconsistent. Hitheita it had been thnught that a:man could be in two places it the same time, but that notion was now going out of faShion, and lie was happy thus tii hive another reason for'expecting . the vote of tKe First Lord of_the Athuiralty: :While he contended ter a plain and simple principle, lie begged to defend himself against the allegation contained io several anonymous letters—tbat he wished to: deprive deserving officers of their few remaining re wards ; on the contrary, he was ready and anxious to pay all according' to their real merits, and only desirous that the- undeserving should not t.e confounded with the de- serving, - and both - mixed up in one common censure. He therefore piopot•ed the two following resolutions : "'A. That it is' the opinion of the ilouse, that the utmost atte4tion to economy In all branches of the public expenditure, which - is consistent"with the public service, is at all times a great and important duty: , " 2. That the existence.of sinecure offices, and offices exe cuted by deputy,,in the army and navy departments, is unne cessary and inexpedient as a means of_remunerating public services." It (continited the Hon, Member) economy were not to be practised ,With regard to sinecures, how would it be possible to retrench the, salaries of,the offices to which some, and, perhaps, very useful duties were attached ? He would leave the .question in the bands of the House. What might be the result he knew not, for he only spoke his individual opinions, and had not even asked a Member to second his proposition. Mr. ROBINSON said, he seconded the motion with (nt any previous concert with the Hon. Member Middlesex, and he sincerely declared, that is a Member of that House ; he felt that his Hon, Friend bad made out a age which showed that in the aggregate those sums did press most heavily upon the community, and greatly exhaust the resources of the country. Whether or not they should any longer delay putting an end to those sinecures was a question which he trusted a reformed Parliament would not entertain. He was perfectly aware tha: the arguments with which such motions as those of his Hon. Friend's were met amounted to this—that those eifEces and emoluments were and ought to be given to deserving officers, and as rewards for great public ser vices, and it would be, no doubt, contended, that it was much more honourable to the parties - to receive them' in' the manner in which they were usually conferred than through the vote of a House of Commons. Now really the question was not which was the most honourable mode of conferring such a reward, hut what class of per sons were in the habit of receiving those rewards, as it was said, of public services—was it not the fact that they were conferred upon the friends and dependents of the Minister of the day, or connected with persons holding seats in that House—at least in the House of Commons in its old state ? It was no reply to say that the present Ministers were not likely to abuse the power with which that species of patronage invested them—it was no an swer to say that they enjoyed the confidence of the House of Commons. The question for a Legislature was not whe ther this or that Minister might abuse the power, but whe ther it was a power liable to excessive abuse? He called upon the House of Commons to agree to the proposition of his Hon. Friend, if for no other reason than for the purpose of its probible effeet upon the public mind in its present ex cited state. The adoption of such a proposition ought to be offered to the public as a security that a reformed House would proceed with the business of the nation after a dif ferent manner than had hitherto marked the decisions of the representatives of the people. He had ever been of opinion that the proper mode of rewarding those officers was not in the mode hitherto practised, but by applica tions to the House of Commons, which he was sure a ould not reject any case of real desert. Upon these grounds, then, he gave the motion his most cordial and hearty sup poi t, and expressed great pleasure in seconding it. Lord ALTHORP concurred with both the Hon. Mem bers who had addressed the House, that they were bound to put an end to ev- ry expense that was not absolutely ne cessary to the sarety and well being of the state. In con sidering a motion such as they had then before them, it was absolute necess ,ry that they should look first at the merits of the quesrion itself, and then at the time at which that question was brought forward. The House, he trusted, would hear in mind that the present motion was brought forward in a substantive form at a time when there were no estimates before the House, although upon the discussion of the estimates was the only suitable time, as he would contend, when such a motion could with any propriety he brought under the consideration of the House, and he v. ry much regretted that then, at the beginning of a session, the Hon. Member should have thought it proper to have brought forward such a motion, and not to have waited for the introduction of the estimates. On the sub ject of those so called sinecures, the Hon. Member oppo site was well acquainted with his (Lord A.'s) opinion upon the subject of the offices in question, and he was sure that many Hon. Members would recollect that he had been, while on that side of the House, a pretty constant attend. ant upon all occasions when questions relating to economy were discussed ; and it was, he presumed, equally well known that he had been a pretty constant voter on the side of economy; hut he had never been a friend to the abolition of those offices. Ile felt then as now, that they ought not to he abolished. He was aware that the mention of that fact proved nothing, but the strength of his own opinion, and that his determination now to oppose the motion of the Hon. Member fur Middlesex, was in perfect accordance with the sentiments he had always iraint.ined. It was perf ctly true that the Hon. Gentlem in said that he had no intention of dept lying deserving officers of the rewards which properly belonged to them, and ought to follow as the natural consequence of their own meritorious services. In the observations which the Hon. Gentle man made on introducing his motion, he seemed to imply that Ministers had deserted the principles upon which they formerly acted, and abandoned those maxims of economy of which they had, heretofore, been the advo cates; and he had taunted his Right Hon. Friend, the First Lord of the Admiralty, with not abiding by senti ments which marked the speeches he had delivered while at the other side of the House. Now, he would inquire whether or not his Right Hon. Friend could he considered so very uneconomical a Minister ? He who had effected a change in the Navy and Admiralty Boards, by which there was so great a saving of the public money, and such a diminution of patronage ?—(Cheers.) It had been said by the Hon. Gentleman opposite that the House would be perfectly ready at all times to reward cases of merit. He freely admitted that, for he believed the House of Commons, like all popular assemblies, to be but too ready to do so, and would go too far in bestow ing rewards upon such public servants as might appear to them meritorious ; and he felt p •rsuaded that such modes ' of granting public money would lead to more lavish expen diture than would ever be attempted by any servants of the Crown. He objected also to the arguments of the Hon. Memb r, upon another ground ; it was quite a new con stitutional principle for any one to contend that the Howe should assume to itself one of the prerogatives of the I Crown. One source of expense, as connected with mi litary service, had often been made a subject of comp!aint. He alluded to the appointment of Lieutenant Governors in the West Indies. He had much pleasure in being ena bled to inform the House that arrangements bad been • made, which, with reference to that subject, were cal- culated to give perfect satisfaction, for a great saving would he effected. A certain number of the smaller islands were placed under one Lieut.• Governor, by which a ~ a ving of Iron seventeen to eighteen thousand pounds a year had ben made. As to whit had been said respect ing the Governor of Berwick, he, it could not be denied, was a mo•t deserving officer. Sir James Bathurst had r.-mained in active service until ill health had made repose necessary. He had been, as was very generally known, Military Secretary to the Duke of Wellington, through out the Peninsular campaigns. He did not deny that soinetimes the patronage of the military department might be m;sapp:ied, as any other patronage might ; but of this he t. It per ectly assured, that it would be at once inexpe dient and unconstitutional to transfer the exercise of that patron ,ge from the Crown to the House of Commons Before he sat down, lie begged to impress upon the House the distinction there was between that and other patro- nage—that was subject to the annual revision of Parlia ment, and the proper time for entering upon the discus. sion of such questions was when the estimates were regu larly before the House. Though opposed to the second of the resolutions of the Hon. Member for Middlesex, he could not so much object to the first, which was merely declaratory of much that nobody could deny—he should therefore not propose that the motion be negatived, but content himself with moving the previous question. Colonel DAVIES declared himself perfectly ready to support a motion for improving the condition of retired military offieers. Mr. BARCLAY (as we understood) concurred in the motion, and gave it his most cordial support, begging his Majesty's Government not to depart from the plan of eco nomy which they hail s no'dy commenced. Lord GEORGE LENNOX agreed with the first reso• lution, but could not support the second. Ile admitted 'bat his own ref itive, the Duke of Gordon, had a regi• in nt, the First Rayals, which had been now 21 years in India ; but that, he contended, was no abuse of the pa tronage most properly vested in the Crown.—(Mr. O'Con nell cheered, as did Mr. Hume, and the Noble Lord s erred to understand the one Hon. Gentleman as cheering in disapprobation or dissent, and the other as expressing an opposite sentiment.) He went on to say that they might se tle teeir differences as they might, and concluded by maintaining the expediency and justice of not abolishing those offices. Mr. O'CONNELL said that he and his Honourable Friend (tbe Member for Middlesex) would readily agree on any question of economy. In his opinion, the com mand of a regiment twenty-four years in India, po-sessed by a nobleman of large fortune resident in this country, was a grievous abuse. Members of Parliament were sent to that House to to,tain cheap government, and that they should labour to obtain as the greatest of blessings at any sacrifice. He was astonished that M.nisters who pro fe,sed economical principles, should oppose the m tion be fore the House. By so cluing they sanctioned the granting of public money for no service, which never should be granted upon a false pretence. If an officer deserved well of his country, let him conic before Parliament, and let it reward him either by the grant of money, or by an appointment to office. Tilat was the proper way, since the distribution of the pu:ilic purse was the privilege of hat House.--(hear.) The Crown had the prerogative of notnina.iitig to office; he did not wish to touch that prerogative when he said that the distribution of the pub, lie purse belonged to that House. He thought that the question should not be deferred, as the Noble Lord oppo site seemed to wish. It was a general one, and no time was fitter than the present to decide upon it. This ques tion of rewards si mild be decided upon principle, and not when some individual ease was brought forward, when the feelings of some particular person might be hurt— , t lien it might be a case of commieseration, and when sympathy might interfere with conscientious voting. They had now to decide. uron a general question, and they ought to lay down without delay a bread principle.—(Hear.) He thought it wo u ld be surprising if they did not ; they were a Reformed Parliamant, and how could a reformed Parliament sanction unmerited pen sions and simcures For himself, he did not hesitate to say, that they should immediately divide upon the ques tion, and let the nation see the spirit of economy that pre vailed in that House. Parliament would then see what the people would say and think of it. In short, the fact Was, that Ministers, by their opposition to this measure, placed it between Parliament and the public. The spirit that presided at the election of that Parliament was one of economy and•retrenehment, and the people expected that it would use every effort to abolish all sinecures and un deserved pensions. When so much poverty prevailed in Ireland, and when, as it had been the other evening stated, the people in some parts of England did not earn more than twopence-halfpenny a day, it became a reformed Parlia ment to be most sparing of the public money. He was glad to hear the Noble Lord opposite say, that there were many offices which might be done away with, and lie hoped that Government would soon acknowledge that there were rainy more. He would conclude by putting it to the House, whether a reformed Parliament was not hound to divide upon the question now before it?—(Hear.) Mr. GEORGE WILLIAMS said he stood there in a most peculiar situation. It was with the greatest unwil lingness that lie accepted the honour of a seat in that House, to which he was sent in direct opposition to his own inclination.—(Laughter.) He never sought the honour of a vote in that Assembly ; for, to tell the truth, he never saw his constituents, nor did they even know him.—(Laughter.) He repeated, his constituents never knew nor saw him, until he went among them to thank them for the confidence they had placed in him by electing him as their representative. Upon what ground, then, did they elect him ? Why, they just kne.v enough of him to be convinced that he was an unflinching opposer of all useless public expense. They knew this because he had opposed all eats tvagance within his local power—in the hundreds and parishes in the vicinity of his residence ; consequently, it was not surprising that he should now publicly support measures of economy. There was much poverty prevalent in the country, and he knew many of his own constituents who were in absolute want. He had been among them and through them—(Laughter)—and he saw that they were but one instance of that extraordi nary mass of distress which was so general throughout the country. He would never consent to one shilling—he said emphatically one shilling—being spent which was not absolutely essential to the public service. Sir JAMES GRAHAM would come to the question brought before the House by the Hon. Mi mber for Mid dlesex, and more point, dly alluded to by the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin. The former had paid him the compliment of avowing that he had introduced mea sures of economy into that part of the Administration with which he was connected. The chief exception the Hon. Member for Middlesex made to his (Sir J. Graham's) spirit of economy related to the Governorship of Dart. mouth and to the Lieutenant• Governorship of the West India Islands. When he eat upon the Opposition benches, he and the Hon. Gentlemen who sat near him made re peated attempts to take the above-mentioned old fort by storm. Whatever political influence the Governor or it might have, his salary was withdrawn; and the Lieu. tenant-Governorship of the West India Islands might be said to be abolished. The real question was the military aryl naval pensions. It ill became him to boast of having fulfided his promises to his constituents, and of having done his duty to his country; but he could not help stat ing, with respect to the saving of the public money, that during the two years he was in office he had reduced the expenses of that part of the Administration with which he was connected to the extent of ooe million, which was anout one-fourth part of the whole expenses, and this lie had done without aff,cting in the slightest way the fficiency of the public service. (Hear, hear, hear.) When the estinsates were brought before - the House, he would be prepared to show that the saving in his part of the administration would be still greater this yea' than last.—(hear.) With respect to onninishing pa tronage, though he had not materially interfered with small salaries, he certainly had with the twelve Commis sioners and Secretaries, whose salaries were some 1,0001. others 8001. a-year, and with all salaries of that descrip tion which were valuable, and which gave Government patronage. It would be a gross injustice to his colleagues if he took all the merit to himself, when he stated, that the yearly saving in the administration to which he belonged amounted to 284,0001., and that the whole saving might be fairly estimated at 2,000,0001. Not withstanding this saving, there was a bona fide surplus of the funds of his a dministration, and the income was absolutely greater than the expense. He was led to these statements by the observations of the Hon. Member for Middlesex, and by a wish to show that his pledges were not mere empty boasts. With respect to the question more immediately before the House—the abolition of the offices alluded to by the Hon. Member for Middlesex, he con sidered that those offices could not be done away with without materially impairing the army and navy service. If that Hon. Member's suggestions were applied to the offices in the army, it would be giving a premium to mediocrity, and would be by no means economical. Let the military profession be analysed, which was generally considered a mercenary one, and it would be sten that t lose who embraced it were actuated by motives of a com pound nature. Honourable fame had its toil ience upon them, but yet they looked towards home, to retirement in old age, and ease and competency granted by a gra a ul country. In his opinion, the members of that pio:essus, would not make great efforts unless sufliaient pay was offered them, and the only question was the mode of that pay. In the p ttronage of the Clown was the appointment to com mand, and its prerogative extended to both rewards and punishment. But the Home had a check on the appoint ments of the Crown, since it could refuse the expenses at tending upon them. It ought to be known, that when very year the estimates were brought forward, the appoint ments of this nature passed under review of the House, which, if it could not annul each appointment, could at least re fuse the salary attached to it. Having now stated his opinion as to the principle of military rewards, be would come to stone facts connected with the department to which he belonged. When he was first placed at the head of that department, there were five yachts, the com mand of which were sinecure appointments. One was considered attached to the service of the Lord Lientenan, of Ireland, but was suppressed with the consent of that Nobleman. With regard to two others, the officers com manding them were appointed to the superintendence of works at two Dockyards ; and being called upon to exe cute that duty, their original appointment was n i longer a sinecure. Now, as to the remaining two yachts, they were destined for the personal use of his Majesty; and surely it would be too much to withhold from a naval Sovereign the use of them. He was sure that neither the House nor the country grudged the accommodation or the p'easure they might afford to his Majesty. As to the two the ,gan ßG tt t w i l tlall ;: i ae ee a ltt a l sl iEu t i a l ri eb t l i t u r i • A p o u to: a 4, a( r i nu ti (: i si r,u t sffi 4n l ite r nn a i, O fcc, sin tit l r eru. d h o t a yilh.i t io as—n r e—r v lfo k, . ° 4.l e f iy‘. r u vfitiffi,i rE illwt i i i ; t : °tC nthneo g ,heg a (w d 'i na ' l' e h lo ett a : n isol i ii : e c d io e brre h 'i scte b v s ehei lu i l t i n o en i ne 't i e ef g:da, s t,n t ailm nhip t gtintiaopeiainaonlottulleilluitretiniiy;an,odt,bltenenisoisesieti'faeritdlpolshnlaNaieibearrn:stiiey,tichd,ifeenoeeorfalet Vice eewV thoughtohbauor:llddde e . g s a tA i r i e f t : : firstrtieuiordftaeoi the _ ef t found those of Loris Rodney, Howe, Bridport, Exmouth, and Sir Edward Thornborough. The latter gallant officer had sixty years of service, and was a Lie.atenant when his present Majesty first went to sea. Was it then to be won• dered at, that upon the death of Lord Exmouth, his Ma jesty should have appointed him to the vacant dignity ? However, if the Hon. Member for Middlesex objected to the appointment, he could refuse the salary attached to it, when the estimates were brought before the House. Mr. HUME was understood to say, that he did not object to the appointment. Sir J. GRAHAM, after enumerating the names of those who had been appointed Rear-Admirals, which were the same as those of the Vice Admirals, with the addition of Lord Northesk, Sir Thomas Foley, and Sir George Martin, said, that this was the anniversary of the hattle or St. Vincent, at which Sir George Martin was present. At that engagement, when N,laon's ship was crippled, and he was obliged to change his flag of Admiral, lie did Sir George Martin the great honour of i•electing the ship he commanded to carry the flag. Yet how were his services remunerated ? He is Rear-Admiral of England, with the large salary of 8851. a year. The piy attached to the office of Vice-Admiral of England ia ()lily 485/. a year. The dignity might be considered as something, b u t t h e pecuniary advan age, all must allow, was very trifling. He contended that a st mulus was necessary both to army and naval officers, and he would not be doing his duty either to his country or his King, if he consented to a motion which would weaken the energy and destroy the efficiency of the service. On the contrary, h' was determ i ne d t h at the stimulus should be still kept up, by which the glory oh our arms would be upheld and transmitted untarnished to posterity. Mr. ROEBUCK said that the Ministers, in opposing the motion of his lion. Friend, the Member for Middle sex, seemed inclined to perpetuate old abuses. His Hon. Blend had endeavoured, by the two resolutions he pi o , p d to establish a principle. The one the Noble Lord (Althorp) opposite apparently seemed to agree to ; and, with respect to the other, his chief objection was, that the proper time Was not yet come. With respect to the tootle of rewarding naval offieera i the Ri s ht Hun, Baronet a i~h~ who last spoke thought it should not be done awaY is for that would be immoral, end would invol ve the 00 the service also. What ! so small a sum as the lo destroy the efficiency of the service ? L et morality of doing away with this mode of socarid examined.—(Loud cries of " Question.") H e i.° l t b' mist if his remarks were disagre e able to the House. s 0 been stated by a Noble Lord opposite that therreowo diff rence between a sinecure and a pension. Pa td g if had a control over the one by the annual vo te it e either for the continuance or discontinuance of it. re nual . pay for doing nothing, was not less a sinc en l i t t being annual. What had been said about the libe ri i d the House, and its commiseration in particular ca-" 1 ' do very well with respect to former Parliamen ts ' the liberality and commiseration o f a Reformed P at )t , not as yet known. When t r i e d, it would be d haps, found to think but little of particular eal ll ,,, an io tl commiseration, and would not b e induced by anY e ,YE r i e e to vote away the money of th e p u bli c purse.- - k i ll (‘ Q uest i on , quest i on. " ) He would not perse vere s t remarks if those interrupti o n s con ti nu ed. Pe ri l, P g b mode of address was not considered captivating 1 obtain attention from the House.—(Hear, 1081..) t sit subject of the reduction of expenditure, and of tbe was one to which the people seemed more awak e e ets other. He would, for hi s o w n p ar t, p er haps, P re t r o rig it were not so, but he k ne w it t o h e a f a ct, that 5- o rbt opinions were held on th ese su bj ec t s th a n on a,"Y There were some taxes whi c h were p ecu liarly n (1°1 ;0 which had called fo r th e l ou d es t expressions of disaPrily tion through o ut th e ki ng d om . H e alluded er r ,' j o s the assessed taxes, the taxes on houses and ° o il and the taxes on know ledge. When it was t i n tl3 to his Maj e sty' s Mi n i s t ers t h at t h ose ta xes "ibis taken off, the answer was , t h at i t was imPa s ' o f t abolish them, because the necessary expen ses Istut kingdom could not be met without them• Ofg would beg to ask the Noble Lord, the Chanee l l ny t set Exchequer, wh e th er i t were not b etter to r educe b - v r e penditure which m a d e t h ose taxes necessary , than 1 sisti n g i n it to en d anger t h e peace and sec uritY ° lo t country. The evil of ov er -t axat i on was not 31° , 4 1 distress it created among t h at c l ass on w h om the ta s e jli most heavly, but the di sun i on an d j ea l ous y it creta,t,l,4 tween the lower class e s an d th e higher, becauseltlet classes are apt to thr ow upon t h e hi g h er c l a sses tl' s tic of all those evils which result from that over•ta!th t Another great evil complained of, as connected Wirslil national debt, was, that it was ruinous to public 0° ,,51 He did not know whether the Noble Lord opposite till'lo',l that there was any pub is morality, but be o, l ' l c oot the Noble Lord that there was such a thing. j ,„ e cs d go further than the Hon. Member who introw", , scil subject under discussion to their notice, in the P rn - o l vd which he adopted. That Hon. Member ha d divo t reso'ution, to the effect that sinecures were inescPeoevic a means of rewarding public service. He (hie' fi sert i ' would go further—be would not pay where n" were performed—neither would he pay over-nlose services performed. He would proportion the te e ac c tion to the service —(Hear, hear.) Moreover , ": 4 so l save every it e m o f expen di ture, h owever sma ll ' tl r Sei be Paved. Sinecures must be done away with, il l meet the expectations of the country rie l Major BEAUCLERK rose, amidst loud ',Pi " Question, question." H e wou ld on l y d et ain tb .. e. ss°, very few minutes. He was co nv i nce d, from ledge of military men—and he knew very °r o l l . nothing was m ore h urt f u l to t h e army i n genetl",i of„' disagreeabl e t o th e ma j or i ty o f t h e officers, "" 0 ` army and navy, than those sinecures.—(Cries „lil oh.") He kn-w it to be the case, for nothirist more disagreeable to them than the collision O A ° set those sinecures brought them with the poplet feelings no tobject they ectto ctrheeated particularthroughout the ices p c e o , u fi r , a r t m rs , '. 4 b y e being rewarded, and well rewarded ; but they the system o f officers obtaining t an ecur es, not Pr :i e performed, but because they happened to havetbeßd friends in that House. It was amus i ng to bear i d s ilf ) Hon. Member opp os it e (th e Fi rst L or d o f the A o il , t ilk as if sinecures and pensions were always gi v : o , of merit, a n d to men o f merit only. He wonl2,Ottt since that Ri g h t H on. Gentleman was in merit had been advanced to posts of honour a nd elli ° , o ( but he would beg the House to look to the servic e o f ral, and say whether the men who deserved bel t ,„ e r country for their services were those who enl n ,„' e t ° cures, or whether it was always merit which — of f' se the greatest reward. He thought that the r e ' j' ier 1 proposition was very apparent in the public o r ' bri e i tier civil or military. He confessed himself g a , r , r , s p) the manner in which the Noble Lord (Alt",)li, dl expressed himself towards the Hon. Member v ,', ' t P sex, in winding to the taunt thrown out I'Y sd' t Member against the Hon. Member for Cutnb" o , 4 o; not being so economical in his government 11°. se ri was in office, as he was in his professions Besse:whS the ()pp 'site side of the House. He (Major O could not lorget th a t h e was a mem b er o f th'i.tc rG which, in the last Parliament, by means majority, voted 100,0001. a y ear to t h e Qu e r t tll° of " On, oh," and di sa p pro b at i on .) H e thougl i to rn H in. Baron e t, i n g i v i ng hi s su pp ort to that toe' ones b ()ken faith with hi s c ons tit uen t s , as h e Wss 4 ; P e t ,em under a distinct pl e d ge t o p romo t e eeona tn it 'oc) l : l department of th e St ate . H e (M ajor Beat ic the people of this countr y t o b e i n d ee p distreeise; it was absolutely necessary to give them relief '„ Barenet opposit e seeme d to t hi n k t h at t here 11- I se°, way of obtaining th at re li e f— t h at o f re ducing , but he (Major Beauclerk) thought that it :0,, necessary to reduce the expenditure in every " er .,, i'; He thought it neces sar y to promote ecooo tte rs public establishm ents . His Majesty's Mi ni n called on to cut d own t h e expense o f ev ery " e t r s e l, from the Crow n d ownwar d s; and h e wo ol') t he' that if they (lid not, th e y w ou ld b e buried 'lie grave with their predecessors.—(A laugh' ) t he `‘ .l that his M a j esty ' s Mi n i sters would not d est roy • vs, general). entertained th a t t h ey wou ld be a c honest Government.—(Cheers.) t se' l Captain YORKE allowed the correctness 0 ' t he tnent made by the Right Hon. G en tlemant i . eft Lord of th e Ad m i ra l ty, that he b ad reduce d t „" e j (P e o ture of th e nav y ; but he denied that he Pa st without i mpa i r i ng its efficiency, as he (CaP tl t i knew, f rom hi s own k now l e d ge o f t h e suhk e ' r e oc efficiency of th e nav y was i mpa i re d by Oleos' f effect e d b y t h e Ri g h t H on. G ent l eman . the a' Hon. Gentleman had saved two millions 00 expenditure of the navy. S r JAMES GRAHAM—One Captain YORKE—WeII, one m illion ° 13 ,, tb e , expenditure ; but that saving was e ff e cted t j ' i y" uleful part of the naval force. It was effect' r r to duction of one thousand m ar i nes , and of Icu tq l seamen, and by diminishing th e expentlitu r ra; stores by 400,0001. He had seen the 4 0 c 7i l ov e ; mouth within the last six weeks, and he I° ,coi,l any docks so clean swept. A s f or the " i v:tbs) O Hon. Member for Middlesex, he believed 'li e - s pe , j Member was not so anxiou s to cut down e t ot - ) as to withdraw the patronage connected with diture from the hands of the Crown, a nd P it le t' l3 hands of the people. Now lie for one tht' n gi ufa Crown should be supported, and be 1- v l i : e ms: ha t: standto adopt by e — p (Lhe p e r r o s p . ) 0801 H b e y Ca t ag h l'i : e: o a r Noble Lord (Althorp) that it was be rt o P; the present system of rewarding officer' ' po i ' Worcester, of increasing the half-pay. Mr. COBBETT t h en rose and be dsd--- aiarri "° t j ,, this House al most t h e fi rst word I hea rd fr °- Hon. Baronet opposite, the First Lord of t he oo ltii , was, that he despised popularity. Now e the Right H un . Gentleman how ' m any a" - br 'o ; ceived from th e peop l e at the t i me w h e n h e llo fer t ward his gr an d expos i t i on o f t h e 113 sw a ode public gold ? I saw one o f t h e answers 1-05/1 Right Hon. G ent l eman t o one o f those at i c re bo 1 , it in the hands of a respectable clergyoa n : i 9 0e, of th ose w h o got up t h e a dd ress, w h o I'a fo r r tbt, Right Hon. Gentl e m a n in his canvas' .u „fir ef ' which h e represents , an d w h o cann ot, th e co r ,;;‘ sidered as part i cu l ar l y h ost il e to t h e gen tle tration—and it answer was, that lie ha d v ibi e r ,' and satisfactian in having made a th° tinn be°lo' the people.—(Hear, hear.) Well,'but io .o til ro f unpopularity, I admit that those who an 9 er y means, or tor improper purposes, a e h e .o deserve to be disappointed ; but are weavoiri because we seek for popularity by enricher the purses of the people, we have i n . 0 be 111 ; motive?—(Hear, hear.) What fault toy Hon. Friend the Aleinlier for Dubl in Ile guilty cf that should draw down so "?'"- him from the other side of the flou'i,i, this—that lie is much beloved by the ]es taoi no propose ruea'nj purse o f the people, the answer alway3b ? to pay the interest of the nationa l de iriterfe, if there were not sufficient to meet tb tli . 1 national oebt, that would not be so 14 .'( /ion made by one of the present Minist.eo,oo to lay a tax of thirty per cent. at o oteL t . ge t i ; 10 in the Funds. Now that was a way a considerable part of the debt at 00ce : ) , C l ;' ing anything from the pocket o f any °Ape/ with the exception Of the itiabOldell