The Sun. — London, England, 1863-07-14 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT HOUSE OF LORDS---Last Evening. The LORD CHA.NCELLOR took his seas on the woolsack at five o'clock. ROYAL ASSENT. The Royal assent was given by commission to the fol- Inving bills :—Bakehouse Regulation—Sale of Mill Sites (Ireland) —Security from Violence—lnnkeepers Liability— Postmaster-General (Sale of Land)—London Coal and Wine Duties— Salmon Fisheries (Scotland) —Mutiny (East India)—Courts of the Church of Scotland--Duchy of Corn wall Management—Vaccination (Ireland) 1863—Passen gers Act Amendment—Militia Ballot Suspension—Walmer Vesting Inclosure (No. 2)--'shames Embankment (north kile) —Vale of Neath Railway—Blackrock, Monketown, and Newporc—Great Western and West Midland Rail way Amalgamation—Charing-cross Railway Evesham and Redditch Railway—Rotherham Local Board of Health —Seaton and Beer Railway—Southampton Port, Harty ur, and Pier West Shropshire Mineral Railway North-Eastern and Stockton Railways, &c., Amalgama tion—Leominster and Kington Railway—Merthyr, Trede gar, &e., Railway—Anglesey Contral Railway—Dulas - Valley Mineral Railway—Watford and Rickmansworth R.a.llway—Stonehouse and Mailworth Railway—Okehamp• ton and Ledford Junction Railway—Belfast, Holywood, and Bangor Railway—Devon Valley Railway—Newcastle and Carlisle Road—Athenry and Ennis Junction Railway —Rugwood, Christchurch, and Bonmouth Railway--Lon don, Brighton, and South Coast Railway Working to Leatherhead)—Mid Kent Railway—Ogmore Valley Rail -way—Wakefield and Aberford Road—West Midland Rail way—Lands Improvement Company—Tees Conservancy —South Yorkshire Railway— Great Northern Railway (Cheshire lines)—Glasgow and South Western, &c., Rail way (Amalgamation)—Scottish Central Railway—Stand edge and Oldham Turnpike Trust— Aberystwith and Welsh Coast Railway—London, Brighton, and South Coast Railway (Extension)—Tendring Hundreds Railway— Tanoworth and Harrington Bridge Road—Wakefield Ings Road--Glasgow and South Western Railway (additional powors)— Ureat Western Railway (Branch at Great Bridge)—Hemel-Hempstead and London and North Western Railway—Portadown, Dungannon, and Omagh Railway—West Hartlepool Harbour and Railway—North Staffordshire Railway—Teign. Valley Railway—Sligo and Ballaghaderreen Junction Railway—Law Life Assurance Society. THE ENGLISH FLEET. The Earl of INIALINIESBUILY asked the Secretary of State fur Foreign Affairs if it was true, as stated in the Observer of yesterday, that the English fleet had been sent ill all its strength to the Baltic. Earl RUSSELL said that the writer in the Observer must have been misinformed. THE CIRCUITS. The LORD CHANCELLOR laid on the table a bill to enable her Majesty in Council to alter the circuits, which was read a first time. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The following bills were read a third time and passed : Walway Water—Milford Haven Dock and Railway—Great North of Scotland Railway—Formartine and Buchan Railway—North British Railway (Wansbcck Railway, &c. --Great Northern Railway (Spalding to March)—Lynn and Sutton Bridge Railway —Great Eastern Railway (ad ditional powers)—London, Brighton, and South Coast Railway (new to line at Croydon, &c.), as amended. THE BURIAL SERVICE. Lord EBURY rose to inquire what steps have been taken towards devising a remedy to the evils arising from the compulsory and indiscriminate use of the burial service. The Archbishop of CANTERBURY stated that a con vocation of bishops, including representatives of the Irish and Colonial Church, had been held for considering the sub ject, but when Parliament had again assembled perhaps the rev, prelate would be able to give their lordships the con clusion to which convocation had arrived. The Archbishop of YORK related the manner in which the subject had been considered in convocation. After a short conversation, in which the Earl of Desart, Earl Granville, and the Bishop of Exeter took part, the subject dropped. POLAND AND RUSSIA. Earl GREY, in rising to put the question of which he had given notice, begged to express, in the first place, his regret that his noble friend near him (the Marquis of Clan ricarde) had not persevered with his motion, which would have raised the whole question. However, as he did not wish to do so he (Earl Grey) thought it important that the question should be brought before their lordships, and therefore he had himself undertaken the task. He did so the more willingly because he should have so occupy their attention but a short time, the importance which would attach to the discussion being dependent not upon what he might 'say, but upon what her Majesty's Government should state to be the policy upon which they were resolved, and upon the expression of opinion which should be given by their lordships' house. It was of great importance that they should have such an explanation of the views of the Government, and such an expression of opinion from their lordships, because he could not look at the present state of Poland without feeling very great apprehension as to the consequences which it might bring forth. His noble friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs had expressed a strong opinion some time since against intervention in the case of Poland, as he thought it would lead only to anarchy and confusion. That opinion was shared at the time by the great majority both of their lordships and the nation, for few persons had considered the question without coming to the conclusion that intervention would lead to very great calamity. (Hear.) He (Earl Grey) thought that if the question were put distinctly to her Majesty's Government, to Parliament, and to the nation, " Will you go to war on be half of Poland ?" the answer, without hesitation, would be, " No." But although he thought that every person was con vinced that it was not a cause in which we should go to war, still ho could not read the papers which had been laid upon the table without feeling that, although we did not intend to go to war, we might be led gradually and step by step to that conclusion. He thought that there was danger at the present moment most imminent: and that it could only be averted by this country acting upon a clear and well-defined course of policy. Her Majesty's Government could not take even the smallest step without considering to what that step might lead. For if they proceeded in a wrong course, it became more and more difficult to stop, and, by an unhappy necessity, they were led from one step to another into difficulties from which it became impossible to recede. He believed it was necessary, not only that her Ma jesty's Government should act upon a clear and well defined policy, but that that policy should be understood by the nation and by all Europe, ro that no mistake should be made upon it. The necessity for this c:earress was forcibly ill cats ated by the history of the past. It, was just 10 year s since we had stood, with respect to the qua Tel then rising between Russia and Turkey, in a situation not very different from that in which we now stand with reference to the war in Poland. There was hardly one of their lordships at that time—there were few persons anywhere in the country— who did not think that war with Russia on behalf of Turkey was impossible. He himself certainly thought so ; and when his noble friend near him (the Marquis of Clanricarde) wished to bring forward the question at that time he (Earl Grey) was one of those who had dissuaded him from doing so. He was unable to form any clear idea what was the policy of her Majesty's Government from the papers that had been laid upon the table of their lordships' house, and therefore he was anxious that her Majesty's Govern ment should give them a full explanation of their policy. He wished, therefore, to know, first, what was their aim, and what their expectation with regard to the communi cation that had been made to Russia ; and further, what grounds they had for believing that their last communica tion was likely to load to the particular result desired, for it was difficult to understand frsm the papers in what manner the proposal made to Russia was likely to lead to a satisfactory result. He also inquired with whom the armis tice was to be c included. Who were to be contracting parties on the part of Poland ? and by whom was it to be signed, and what security was there that it should be respected ? because he considerel that a cessation of hostilities on the part of the insurgents would be difficult again of renewal, and would be a virtual abandonment of the insurrection. An amnesty he had generally considered as a measure that followed and not preceded pacification, and with regard to the establishment of free institutions, and the administra tion of the country being in the hands of the natives of Po land, what guarantees, he asked, had her Majesty's Govern ment for believing that it would be accepted by Poland ? At present all the country knew about it was, that Poland repudiated a national government under Russian authority within the limits of Poland, as defined by the treaty of Vienna, and that she asked for the old limits of Poland, and for complete independence. With that broad difference between them, he was at a loss to understand what advan tages were likely to arise from pressing those terms upon Russia. Had therefore, he asked, her Majesty's Government sufficiently considered the interference of a third party, as between sovereign and people, that was apt to lead to a use ful result. His opinion led to a contrary belief, unless they were prepared to follow it up with a strong hand, and were determined to enforce it. A middle course, that of interfer ing merely by giving advice,would be thought to have much of a similar interference between man and wife, add lead to no practical beneficial result. To encourage hopes in the in surgents which were not to be fulfilled was cruel on the part of this country. His lordship considered that diplomatic intervention encouraged the hopes of the insurgents that Eng land would interfere with a strong hand, and instanced the feeling existing in Russia on the part of the people to support the Czar in his attempt to crush the Poles. He did not anticipate that Russia would send a positive refusal; but supposing she were to do so, what would be the conse quence ? Were we to take the rebuff withcut suffering seri ous injury to our reputation. (Hear, hear.) 'On the other hand, if they sent a rejoinder of a stronger and more press ing character would they not be taking a step that must of necessity lead to war. Then again, if Russia professed her readiness to meet our views, and asked us to join her in con sidering what practical measures could be adopted, we should be involved in serious difficulties—(hear, hear) — because we should have imposed upon us the responsibility of suggesting a practical measure by which a settlement might be effected. If the task was impracticable in 1815 how much more so was it now after the Poles had been sub jected to more than half a century of Russian tyranny ? He cautioned her Majesty's Government against exciting also In this counts y vain hopes for the Poles, or else the sympathy of Englishmen might drift us into a war for the recognition of Polish rights. (Hear.) The sams he believed with France ; and they had already seen, from .1 statement of a semi-official character in ono of the Frea • newspapers, that the Emperor of the Frence expected t • proposals to bear early fruit favourable to the Polish r eoplc. The feeling of Russia, his lordship said, was in favour of the Czar and their religion, and the people had expressed their readiness to came forward with their lives and their property in their defence, provided no concessions were made to Poland. The recruits ware also coming forward for the defence of Russia with alacrity, considering themselves as about to be engaged in a holy war. Indeed, private accounts of a late date de scribed the feeling and enthusiasm of the Russian people as stronger than that which existed in 1812, in opposition to foreign aggression, and in the maintenance of the limits of the Russian empire which led Russia to make such sacrifices and heroic exertions. Under those circum stances he was anxious to know whether her Ma jesty's Government were making out a cause of war against Russia, and if they were not—as he was convinced they were not, he considered they ought to explain why they were taking a course that seemed so likely to lead to that result. He was not indifferent to the sufferiegs of the Polish people. He deprecated the measures that led to the revolt, and he had observed with as much horror as any one the terriblebloodshed which was now going . on ; but a great nation ought not to act on me re impulse of feeling, but to consider what could and what ought to be done. He did not consider it the du t y of this country to set herself up as the general redresser of grievances all over the • world—(hear, hear)—or that w e should undertake the holy mission of setting right every country that we considered (Hear, d h th e hear , ra ) a e a ; had,w we he t a n d o u seenght , t a h c a t r e e d , courseawwaiwtshisgetohien going r ‘ v e r a o t wn e i s gt t h. sor row and surprise, a most bloody, and, to all appearances , a most p ur p oseless civil war maintained for two years ; but her Majesty's Government had, with the universal assent of this country, properly abstained from interfering. The same principle, he considered, applied to Poland, believing that it was not a ca.se for armed interven tion—(hear, hear)—and ho expressed a hope that her Ma jests,'s Government would not, by interference of another kind, aggravate those evils which they would gladly pre vent. He concluded by moving for the production of the papers relative to Poland of which ho had given notice. Earl RUSSELL, after complimenting the noble earl for the temperate manner in which he had brought the subject forward, observed that as her Majesty's Government were acting in concert with France and Austria, he could not then enter into the effect of the Russian reply without further communication from those Powers ; but he had not thought it desirable to ask the noble earl to postpone his motion, from feeling that if he had, and the noble earl had acquiesced in the proposition, their lordships would have been deprived from discussing the subject that session. He confessed that he disagreed with the noble earl's views on this subject, although the noble earl agreed with him in one point, that armed intervention was not necessary, There were some, however, who were of an opposite opinion. Before, however, we entered on a war for Poland, it was necessary to ask, What was Poland ? (Hoar, hear.) There was Poland clearly defined by the Treaty of Vienna, in which the Powers of Europe had a certain right to inter fore; but that was not the Poland that was looked to by those who were in insurrection, but involved those provinces in which no very great number of Poles were to be found. (Hear, hear.) The noble earl reviewed the historical posi tion of Poland, from its first partition in 1772, and observed that, so far from diplomatic communications leading to war, the effect would te the contrary. All the points must be discussed and fully deliberated upon, and her Majesty's Government must have a clear object in view before they would venture to come down to the house and propose a war with Russia on behalf of Poland. (Hear,) He differed from the noble earl that diplomatic negotiations must lead to war, and that statement ought not to influence their lordships on this subject. (Hear, hear.) He confessed that he had no confidence in a do-nothing policy, or in imagining that a great country like England could separate herself from the affairs of the world, and say that her voice should not be heard nor her influence prevail in the coun cils of the world, but merely to take care of ourselves, and take no part in what was going on around us. What her Majesty's Government had been doing was this—they had entered into communication with France, who had always shown great sympathy for Poland, in order to establish permanent peace and good government in that country ; and for the same purpose her Majesty's Government had consulted with Austria, who, he rejoiced to say, was re suming her power and her weight in the councils of Europe. Austria was a wise Government, and he rejoiced to say that her finances were nearly restored—the discord that lately prevailed was much abated, and with her free Parliament she was in a position to take a higher part than she had ever yet taken in the councils of Europe. The opinions of Austria, he re joiced to say,!did not agree with those of Prussia on Poland, Austria was of opinion that her Polish sabjects should be governed with as much attention as pea Bible to her national tastes; that their religious observances should be respected as well as their customs and habits ; and the result had been that on a late occasion the Polish leaders declare in the Austrian Parliament their full satisfaction _in the policy which the Austrian Government was pursuing. When, therefore, it was said that such a system of government on the part of Russia towards the Poles under her dominion was impracticable, he asked why they did not show some of the temper of Austria, some of her wisdom, and some of her meleration towards her Polish subjects---(hear, hear) — instead of attempting, as she had lately, to suppress the Polish language, and to change the religion of her Polish subjects? It was, therefore, in union with France and Austria that England had made her proposition to Russia. The case of Poland was different to that of America. The Northern and the Southern States of America had burst into a civil war, and had been fiercely engaged in hostili ties, but to neither was the country in the least pledged to pursue any line of policy; whereas Poland was not a divided question azisongher subjects of internal government. Russia having acquired Poland in 1815, bound herself to certain conditions with regard to Poland to which all the Powers ' of Europe were parties, and were bound to maintain them. (Hear,) England, therefore, could not decline to have any thing to do with the propositions which Austria was anxious to propose, and which Austrian statesmen considered Rus sia could accept. Austria was most anxious to preserve the peace of Europe, and at the same time that the Poles under Russia should be contented, and possess those rights and privileges which they ought to enjoy, With re gard to an armistice, the noble earl had said there was no Government on the part of the Poles with whom it co uld be made; but he (Earl Russell) begged to remind the noble earl that it was perfectly competent for the generals or com manding officers on both sides to agree to a suspension of hostilities, with a view to the negotiating an armistice. As to the Poles, undoubtedly, if they agreed to the suspension of arms, they would expect to have a representative re ceived at the conference. There was only one proposition made by Austria which differed from those made by the other Powers. The first of the six propositions made by all the Powers was a complete and general amnesty. That would have the effect of putting an end to all inquiry into past offences and punishment of Poles for taking part in the insurrection. He did not see wky Russio should not agree to that proposition, The second was, that tee Poles should have a national representation and participation in the legislation of the country. That was similar to what Alex ander I. gave to Poland in 1815. The only 'difference in the Austrian proposal from that made by France and Eng land was, that the representation should be distinct and national. He (Earl Russell) did not see why Russia should not agree to those terms. They were similar to those made by Alexander 1., and they were the only terms on which peace could be expected between Russia and Poland. Russia should govern Poland according to the wishes of the people of Poland, and it would be impossible for England to propose terms other than those which would be consistent with the preservation of the Russian Government in Poland. The leaders of the insurrection undoubtedly would not agree to those terms, but there were many other men of more moderate views in Poland who would gladly agree to them. The insurgents had now kept the field for several months, but they did not possess a single town, and they had not as yet organised a regular army. There were many men in Poland who considered that if they could obtain an amnesty, a na tional representation, and guarantees for the future exercise of their religion and their laws, it would be better that the Government of Russia should go on. No doubt there were men who, being leaders of insurrection and hopeful of suc cess, said that they would go on fighting until they estab lished their independence, and the noble lord who had spoken so eloquently upon the subject on a former occa sion, hoped that they would continue their gallant struggle, and never lay down their arms until they had succeeded. And he (Earl Russell), looking at what Russia had done to Poland since 1815, could not blame any Pole who remained on the field as long as he entertained a hope of success. Nor did he blame them, but it was because he believed that there was a majority of the nation willing to accept the terms which he'd been proposed that he thought it was our duty to propose them. It would be the interest of the Em peror of Russia to keep those terms faithfully, and to keep the Poles well governed, and the propositions would serve as a sort of charter for the Poles. The Emperor of Russia should observe the terms of such an understanding faith fully, for any future attempt at extermination in Poland would unite the strongest feelings of Europe against Rus sia. The noble lord had said any interference must do mis chief. It did not do so in 1831, for whilst the Poles in the other provinces were punished with fearful rigour, those in the Kingdom of Poland, in whose favour interference was made, were suffered to remain unmolested, excepting only those officers who had broken their oaths. Such Was the evidence of Lord Heytesbury. At the same time he should say everything depended, not only on the tone but on the terms of the answer of the Emperor of Russia to the proposals of the three Powers. There were certain unfa favourable circumstances which he could not avoid observing, Such an appointment as that of General Mouravieff to an important command was not a favourable circumstance when considered with regard to the intentions of the Em poor; and an order of the day issued by that general, which he (Earl Russell) had seen in the papers that morning, in which Polish landowners were commanded under pain of confiscation, to return to reside on their estates and Pre- THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, JULY 14, 1861 serve the power of Russia, and in which the peasants were encouraged to betray their landlords with promises of get ting possession of their estates, were circumstances that could not be considered as encouraging. The appointment of a man such as Mouravieff was not favourable to the be lief that the Emperor of Russia and his INlinisters would act a generous or liberal part ; still he thought it was our duty to make these propositions. They would be of much use in keeping up the spirit of the people of Poland. That hope of nationality and independence had kept the Poles up for nearly one hundred years, and they expected confidently that, some day, their national independence would be pro claimed. But if the Powers should be so far successful as to prevent the present war and extermination from going on, and if they could restore to the Poles a Government which should be at least a moderate and just one, and which would preserve in their homes and in their municipal councils that spirit of holy nationality which he earnestly hoped would never die, for if it died the disgrace would fall on Europe—if such should be the result of their inter ference, their diplomacy would not have been in vain, and he for one should never regret having taken part in such negotiations. (The noble lord resumed his seat amidst loud cheers.) Lord BROUGHAM said that the noble lord stood in a totally different position from Lords Grenville or Castle reagh. But whatever might be the situation it was agreed that armed intervention was out of the question. The noble earl (Russell) was agreed on that point with the noble earl (Grey). But what would be the effect of such a decla ration upon the Russian Government, who were waiting for the result of that night's discussion before they gave an answer to the propositions of the three Powers ? Earl RUSSELL—The Russian Government has de cided already. The answer has been drawn up, and the despatch will leave St. Petersburg for the three capitals to morrow morning. (Hear, hear.) Lord BROUGHAM was glad to hear that the answer had been decided on before the report of that discussion went to Russia. There was little doubt that the Russian Ministers would like to have the advantage of reading the reports before framing their answer. He feared that the appoint= ment of General Mouravieff was a.bad sign. It was shock ing that such tyrants should be placed in positions where they were enabled to exercise their cruelties. The Earl of DERBY said he never heard the name of Poland uttered in that house without) apprehension for the results which might follow the debate, and he seldom took part in discussions upon the subject. He felt great reluc tance to have the matter debated. The brave and generous people were deserving of all their sympathies, but he never approached the subject of their wrongs or a debate of the kind which they bad had that evening without fearirg that the language used in that house or elsewhere might do much injury to the people whose cause they were advocating. (Hear.) It might lead them to expect that assistance to their cause which could not be given to them. (Hear.) It inspired their hopes for the resurrection of Poland. He confessed he was somewhat surprised at the noble earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs entering upon the discussion that evening. He was surprised that the noble earl should discuss the question pending the negotiations, and at the very moment when we were actually expecting the answer of Russia to the propositions of the three Powers, and when it was plain that the answer might be materially affected by the language used in that house. On the one hand a declaration of intention to interfere by force, if neces sary, might be viewed as a menace ; on the other hand, a declaration that we would not, under any circumstances, interfere with arms, might cause the whole subject to be treated evasively. But that feeling had been removed by the statement of the noble earl, and the declaration of her Majesty's Government that Poland is not to expect the armed interference of this country whatever may be the answer of Russia. He had no hesitation in declaring that her Majesty's Government, having thought it right and prudent to make that declaration, he fully and completely concurred with it, and agreed that we should not allow our selves to be drawn into h'stilities. (Hear, hear.) Still he feared for the result of the discussion at such a time. It might lead to much complication and many difficulties—dif ficulties which might hereafter drag us into war. Nay, it might lead even to such complications that we might find ourselves drawn into a war, not for, but against Poland. For if it should turn out hereafter that the arms which we had put into the hands of the Poles were used, not for the pacification, but for the destruction of Russia, the Emperor might turn round upon us, and demand the fulfilment of our promises, and of the expectations which we had held out in order to induce him to ac cede to our suggestions. But there was one point on which he was very anxious to have a clear reply. He wished to know had her Majesty's Government come to any understanding with our allies as to what all were to do in case the six propositions should be rejected by Russia. For that was a most important point. He would be quite satisfied if the noble earl said such an agreement had been come to. He did not seek to know the nature of the arrangement. He should be perfectly satisfied with hearing that it had been come to. But if no such agree ment had been made beforehand, it would be impossible for the noble earl:to say what will be the consequences. If such were the case, the course of the noble earl had been a most improvident one. He objected likewise to the noble earl grounding his interference on the treaties of 1815—treaties which had been broken so frequently since, in every other clause, and the open broaches of which had often failed to call forth even the least notice of the Powers of Europe. If the noble earl had merely tendered good offices between the parties, his offer would not involve him in any ulterior con sequences; but it was a different matter when treaties were appealed to; and a refusal would now lead the noble earl into an embarrassing situation. Acceptance of the propo sitions upon the basis of treaties so often broken would be idle; whilst the refusal would be a very near approach to a regular insult. By founding his interference on those trea ties the Poles of the Duchy of Warsaw only were spoken of. But the great majority of the noble earl's clients would cer tainly refuse his interference, if it did not secure for them the same advantages as he sought for the Poles of the King dom. It was not a promising state of things. The noble earl had admitted the difficulty of establishing au armistice. The Russians could not grant an armistice, because they wore engaged in suppressing a revolt. In a single sentence of the paper laid that day on the table by the noble earl he ad mitted the full difficulty of the situation, when he said that the Poles would not be entitled to the benefit of the armistice unless they abstained from all acts of war. But the only hope the Poles had was in keeping up the war. The three points made by her Majesty's Government were—Firstly, the adoption of the six propositions ; secondly, a provisional suspension of arms; and thirdly, the appointment of a con ference. But how wore those points to be carried into ffect ? The noble earl said that the Emperor should pub lish an amnesty ; but what was the result when the Em peror published an amnesty a short time ago ? No notice was taken of it, and the noble earl said that the Poles were right in not taking any notice of it. Earl RUSSELL—I said that the terms which accompa nied tho amnesty should be satisfactory. The Earl of DERBY continued—He did not anticipate that Russia would rend a refusal. The result of acceptance of the propositions would be a conference,which would lead to long delays. Expectations of a success which could not come had been held out to the insurgent Poles. He believed that the great party which was moving in Poland was not merely a pro. Polish but an anti-Russian party, and that the anti-Russian spirit prevailed to such an extent that we would find ourselves in great difficulties before long. He did not agree with the noble earl (Grey) that because we had got into a war in 1853 by doing nothing, wa were therefore to try to keep out of war in 1863 by doing nothing likewise. On the other hand, the noble earl (Russell) had spoken of a tall man in the front of a crowd who fancied he was leading, whereas he was merely impelled forward by the force of the crowd behind him. He addressed the simile to persons who fancied they were leading instead of following the impulse of public opinion. But he fancied that the noble earl (Russell) must be taken upon the pre sent occasion to be the tall man himself. (Great laugh ter.) He feared there was great danger in the course which the noble earl was pursuing, and he was only glad that the debate had taken place, because it had produced from the noble earl a declaration which would put an end to exaggerated hopes. He did not know what papers the noble earl (Grey) wanted, but he presumed his object was attained when he had declared his own opinion, and ob tained the expression of the opinions of her Majesty's Government. Earl GRANVILLE could not help calling attention to the inconsistency displayed by noble lords, who first pressed for expression of opinion and full information from her Majesty's Government, and, when their desires were com plied with, then complained that the Government were not sufficiently reserved. First, they urged the great benefits which might be expected to arise from bringing public opi nion to bear on Russia, and appeals were made to the house to discuss the question ; and now, when those urgencies had been complied with, they found two noble earls urging upon them that their only true course was absolutely to do nothing. He believed, however desirable it might be, that it would be perfectly impossible for her Majesty's Govern ment to pursue the dolce far niente course advocated by the noble earl on the cross benches. The noble earl oppo site, after expressing hie satisfaction that it was not the intention of her Majesty's Government to go to war for the independence of Poland, said he was at the same time afraid that the country was drifting into war. But ho thought the apprehension of the noble lord was of a very ideal character when he supposed that Russia would turn round upon her Majesty's Government for entering upon negotiations which she had sanctioned. With regard to another point objected to by the noble earl opposite, he should say, on the contrary, that much good might be done by the expression of the public opinion of Europe ; and it was an important step to have the opinion of the whole of the Powers who signed the treaty of 1815 brought to bear in favour of the Poles. Now, as to entering into arrangements with the Powers of Europe, he thought no thing could be more unwise than such a course until they had the answer of Russia before them. The noble earl had said a great deal about the word armistice, but there was no mention of an armistice—that phrase was, " a suspen sion of hostilities ;" and although it was a guerilla war• fare, still it was under one direction, and notwithstanding all that had been said he did not think it was impossible to bring about a cessation of hostilities. There was one other point referred to by the noble earl opposite, namely, the amnesty, audit was important, in considering the effects of an amne.ty, to recall' the circumstances under which the Emperer of Russia issued the late amnesty, and those un der which an amnesty would now be offered. The late amnesty was a call to the Poles to lay down their arms, whereas an amnesty would now be conditional upon Russia entering into negotiations with the Powers of Europe for the purpose of settling the future of Poland. (Hear.) The Marquis of CLANRICARDE complained of the course taken by her Majesty's Government, for while they laid down that they would not go to war for the indepen dence of Poland, they entered upon a course which might lead to war. He did not think it was politic to declare at the outset that the country would not go to war. The Earl of Aberdeen, when Prime Minister, had made a similar de claration with regard to Turkey, and the result was a war with Russia. He could not approve of negotiations which went back to the treaty of 1815. The conditions then laid down were found to be impracticable, but they would be found infinitely more impracticable in the present day, when the hatred between Russia and Poland had become irrecon cileab:e. The Duke of ARGYLL said he could not allow the statement of the noble marquis with regard to the Earl of Aberdeen to pass uncontradicted. Having known the mind of the late noble earl, he could state that he had never uttered the words imputed to him, either with regard to Turkey or any other affair. What Lord Aberdeen said was, that he hoped the negotiations going on would prevent the possibility of war. The noble duke then entered into a defence of the policy pursued by her Majesty's Government, and observed that while the noble earl who introduced the motion advoc dal a do-nothing policy, th a t was no t th e po licy of the noble earl opposite, or of the noble marquis. The Earl of HARRO WBY said, although he was not sanguine of success from the negotiations, still he thought it was impossible for her Majesty's Ministers to remain silent when the whole country had been thrilling with sympathy for Poland. He thought it was impolitic to make so distinct an announcement that the country would not go to war for the independence of Poland. Moral force was only effective when there w as the p o ssibility of something else behind it. He did not ex p ect much good from the negotiations now in progress, but still if they led to a miti gation of the cruelties and atrocities inflicted upon the peo ple of Poland they would have accomplished something. This country had been on th e point of war with Russia on this very question of Poland ; and it was only the return of Bonaparte from Elba that had prevented it. (Hear, hear.) What he greatly objected to was, that the negotiations should be confined to the Duchy of Warsaw, which would s ettle nothing. When they we nt so far the y should have gone furtber. The only t i me the partition of Poland had ever been publicly recognised was at the Congress of Vienna, and the Treaty of Vienna was the only title,the Emperor of Russia had to Poland ; and that title might now be taken from him. Earl RUSSELL said there were no papers to be pro duced, but as soon as the answer of Russia arrived her Majesty would direct it to be laid before Parliament. Earl GREY said, under the circumstances, he had no hesitation in withdrawing his motion; but the main ground of his objection to the policy of her Majesty's Government was that it was a kind of middle course which was not calculated to accomplish any practical result. The subject then dropped. The Prisons (Ireland) Bill was read a second time. The following bills passed through committee :—Drain age and Improvement of Lands (Ireland), Metropolis Turn pike Roads Acts Amendment, Sir Robert Ilitcham's Charity, Ruthin Charities, Police and Improvement (Scot land) (Provisional Grder). The following bills were read a third time and passed : Colonial Letters Patent, and Poor Law Board Continu ance. The house adjourned at ten minutes to nine o'clock. --- HOUSE OF COMMONS—Last .Evening. The SPEAKER took the chair at 4 o'clock. The Lowestoft Water, Gas, and Market Bill was read a third time. The Aston Estates Bill was read a second time. ROYAL COMMISSION. • At fifteen minutes after four o'clock Colonel CLIFFORD, the deputy-usher of the black rod, advanced to the table and summoned the Speaker and the house to.hear the Royal assent, by commission to several bills. The Speaker re turned at half-past 4 o'clock. BANKRUPTCY AND COUNTY COURT RE- - TURNS. Mr. MURRAY gave notice that on the next motion for going into Committee of Supply he should call the attention of the house to the great and unusual delay in bringing forward the usual annual state ment required by the Act of Parliament, with respect to these courts, and wished the Attorney-General to explain the cause. PRIVATE BILL LEGISLATION. Mr. HODGSON gave notice that on Thursday he should address a question to the President of the Board of Trade with respect to the course the Government intended to pur• sure on this subject. BOMARSUND. Mr. R. LONG asked whether Government had received information of the reconstruction of batteries at Bomarsund, and whether they had forwarded any remonstrances? Mr. LAYARD replied that no information of the kind had reached her Majesty's Government. MR. JOHN CLARE AND THE WARRIOR. Mr. CONINGHAM asked questions regarding the claims of Mr. John Clare, jun., to be the inventor and patentee of the Warrior description of vessel. ex plained that a jury had decided against Lord tCho. claim of of3ir. Clare, jun„ and the Queen's Bench had since refused a rule for a new trial. The question had been entirely set at re st. The Secretary of the Aimiralty was of opinion that th is g entleman had no claim upon the public. ARMSTRONG A ND WHITWORTH GUNS. sked w hether the Armstrong and Whit. Sir J. HAY a ARTINGTON replied that, as all the c ome experiments had not been worth Committee were likely soon to report ? some time would yet elapse before guTuehereAgluairrqoudisfoorf Hole the report would be ready. JAPAN. yet supplied, he feared Lord NAAS asked the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs a question as to the instructions issued to the Com mander-in-Chief of her Majesty's fleet regarding hostilities in Japan ? said it was a Rfor the G overnmentnot to publish instruc veLryorydroPpAerLrMulEe tions sent to naval and military cfficors, before the matters to which they had reference were completed ; therefore he could not permit t he information required to be g iven. STAT UE OF GE ORGE 11. IN L EICESTER- SQUARE. 3ir. m utilated figu re o f G eorge 11., set up in the reign of that monarch. Since that p eriod an act had been passe d not permitting He the er ec ti on o f pu b li , sta t ues w ithout th e Commission of Publi c W or k s. e . to COWPER terr called the terribly ex plained that his a tt en ti on had been had no power to interfe C re with the statue. IRCUITS. In reply to Mr. HADFIELD, The SOLICITOR -GENERAL intimated that a bill alter the circuits in accordance with the desires of the pub lic would shortly be introduced by the Lord Chance llor into o . f ito th eb e ue A k d ,s journed Debat the House of Lords, with o the hope that it would be passed during the present sessi _ . There m w o as ti n o o m intention to in creaserose, at a quarter past five, in an us W u M a trh y ßdrO r aE ; l3lir d C hoUe to intimate that he desire lin ili thec numberodaei of J e ldges. that m he i g h b t r 0 b u e g h d t i f s o c r h w a (Applause.) He e on a rg rd ed his move that the order for renewing the adjourned dabat d e be th an earnest desire in order to put an en d to the t • tumble car nage- America ; but, for doing so he in had been subjected tomuch o bl o quy out of doors, and within the house, from a noisy, if not a very unwise party. (Cheers, and roin hear, But read, H e d e i a n i r order ed t o state t h at it hear.) t he noble lord at the head of the Government hav i ng s tated that he considered the motion w ou ld act as country, s an i m pediment to the good government of this cou n t he 1 an d his hon. friend were perf ec tly sa ti s fi e d with what the noble lord had said, and begged to withdraw the motion. hear.) ) The (Hear, he • Under Secretary of F • oreign Affairs had brought charges against him and his ' hon. fri • en d which oug ht to be met • , but coming from the quarter they did, perhapsfor them both per it would be well to forego any feel ing on the matter. They had endeavoured to do their duty great t o the cou ntr y . He war ned the noble lord that re sponsibility attached to hi m i n t hi s business. Two ques tions p resented themselves t o th e j u d gment of the noble lord —first, the reconstruction of the Union on a Southern basis ; and second, the recognition of the Southern States by the Emperor of the French. (Cries of no, an d hear, hear.) it was th a t h e would have been n o, h e ar.) been glad to have obtained the decision of the house upon his motion. Mr. LINDSAY entered into a lengthy explanation. For three years and a half he had unostentatiously, and at his oven expense, interested himself in the maritime trade a nd relations of two countries. The motion of his hon. and learned friend stood on the paper for six weks, and it was at hi s hon. and learned friend's suggestion that communica tions with the Emperor were opened in order to ascertain whether his sentiments with respect to the South had un dergone a change or not. It was elicited by a correspondence with a friend in Paris that the Em peror had not changed his opinion, and that if they both thought proper to come over he would be glad to see them. The purport of the interview amounted to this, that the Empeior intimated that if it was her Majesty's pleasure to again address him on the subject of the recognition of the Southern States he would be glad to enter into negotiations, believing t h a t if the great Powers of Europe interfered, the moral effect would result in the s toppage of the carnage. (Hear, hear.) Re had been in Paris, with the knowledge and sanction of her Majesty's Government, and had spent a long time th ere a t hi s own i ex pense. It had never crossed his lips that he had been speaking to the Emperor in an unostentatious manner, and it he was to be taunted with being an araateur diplomatist, he could only say it was with the entire sanction of her Majesty's Government; and it was they who sent him to do the work which they His Majesty was pleased to speak to him on various other subjects, but he invariably reported every word which his Majesty was pleased to say to him to Lord Cowley ; and he told his Majesty that every word he was pleased to say would be repeated to her Majesty's re presentative at Paris. He would not refer now to any of those conversations, although the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs seemed to be desirous that he should go into the whole of those delicate questions, The hon. mem ber stated that he (Mr. Lindsay) had come from Paris to this country on a special mission, but that he received a telegram contradicting his statement. From whom did the telegram come—from the Emperor or the Minister? All he could say was that it was passing strange. (Opposition cheers.) As the house was aware, he was always mast anxious to maintain friendly relations between the Govern ments of the two countries; and he would be the last to say or do anything which might cause any misunderstanding between the Emperor of the French and the Government of this country. Mr. NEWDEGATE rose to order. He thought the house must be aware that the course which had been pur sued by the hon. member for Sheffield and the hon. mem ber for Sunderland was not only highly indecorous—(Mr. Roebuck—Was that order ?)—but was fraught with E erious consequences. (Cries of Chair, chair.) The SPEAKER said that the motion before the house was that the order be discharged, and nothing which had been said appeared to him to be contrary to the motion. (Cheers.) Mr. NEWDE9ATE again rose to order, whereupon cries of "chair" were repeated. The SPEAKER said that the house having sanctioned his decision, it was the duty of the hon. member to ac quiesce. (Hear.) Mi. LINDSAY resumed—He had stated distinctly that, although it was the pleasure of the Emperor to speak to him on various questions, he had never spoken to a single per son upon the matter, except to the representative of her . M aje sty at Paris. Not a whisper escaped his lips until inci dentally the Emperor had given him leave to make a certain statement. He would make this statement now, bat would forbear rather than disturb the harmony which was gene rally supposed to exist between her Majesty's Government and the Emperor of the French—(laughter from the Op position benches)—the harmony which really existed be tween the Emperor of the French and the English people. The Under Secretary of State the other evening nodded assent when he asked him whether the telegram had come from the Emperor of the French. The conversation to which it referred took place upon the 11th April, 1862, and was upon American affairs. It related to the past, and also to the future; and the Emperor asked him to repeat the conversation to Lord Cowley. He told his Majesty that he had occasion to cline with Lord Cowley that evening, but that he would take an early opportunity of reporting the conversation to him. (Laughter.) The following morning he related what had passed to Lord Cowley, and he distinctly impressed upon him the necessity of informing Earl Russell of the reasons why the Emperor was pleased to have the conversation with himself. His Majesty was pleased to request him to inform him of the remarks which Lord Cowley might make upon his (the Emperor's) re marks. (A laugh.) He never repeated to the Emperor what Lord Cowley happ ene d to say to him, but upon this occa sion he told Lord Cowley that he intended to report what took place to the Emperor, and therefore that he might say as much or as little as he pleased. On his return to this country he was no t a ll owed an opportunity of communicat ing to Earl Russell, or the noble viscount, what had taken place ; but some correspondence passed on the subject with which he would not trouble the house. On his return to Paris, the Emperor w as p l eased to express approval of the manner in which he aeted in the matter. If it was the case, as the hon. ge n tl eman the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs had stated, that he had received a telegram from the Emperor of th e F renc h contradicting the conversation, why was it that, on his return to Paris, the Emperor requested him to write to the noble viscount on the subject matter of it? If he was the imprudent person—the busy body which the hon. gentleman taunted him with being, why did not the Emperor, on hi s return,- directill. Mocquard to "inform that gentleman that the Emperor is not at home?" (A laugh,) Viscount PALMERSTON said—l- think my-hon. and learned friend has judged r i g htl y i n ma k ing a motion f or discharging the order, for a reason I stated on a former oc casion, that no good could vise frorna debate -and division upon the motion: I canziot,lewever; butexpriss my regret that he and the hon. niertiber; 'for Sunderland should mix , up with that well-considered measure of theirs an attack upon my hon. friend the- Under Secretary for Foreign Af fairs. My hon. friend did on Friday what he considered to be his official duty, arising out of the statement made by the hon. member for Sunderland after I had spoken. Now, I only hope this will be the last time when any member of this house will think it his duty to communicate to the British House of Commons anything which may have passed be tween him and the Sovereign of a foreign country. (Cheers.) Sincerely, I do not mean to impute the slightest blame to the two hon. members, and I am persuaded they acted with the best intentions, and for the good of the country; but, at the same time, I wish to impress upon their minds, and the minds of the house, that the proceeding they adopted was most irregular. (Cheers.) The British Parliament has its functions to receive messages and communications from the Sovereign of the United Kingdom ; but we have no communication, no intercourse, no official knowledge with any Sovereign of a foreign country; and it is no part of our functions to receive communications from the Sove reign or Government of any foreign country ; unless such communications are made by the responsible Ministers of the Crown in consequence of official communications made to the British by the organ of the foreign Government in question. (Cheers.) If the Emperor of the French or the Queen of England has any communication to make to each other, the Queen has an ambassador at Paris and the Em peror has an ambassador in London. These ambassadors are the proper organs for communications between sove reigns and government, and not the Legislature of each other's country. If either the Emperor of the French or the Queen of England has any statement which they wish to make public to all the world, they can make any an nouncements they think fit through:their Ministers in their respective Parliaments. Or, if Parliament be not sitting, the Emperor has an official organ, the 21oniteur, through which any intimation he wishes to make is at once pub lished to the world ; and if we have not a corresponding official organ—(a laugh)—yet we would have no difficulty in making known any communication we desired to publish during the recess of Parliament. Nothing, then, can be more irregular than the proceeding in question; for this reason—setting aside the constitutional question in volves', which I hold to be a very grave one—that when the Minister for Foreign Affairs at Paris, or my noble friend at the head of the Foreign-office, makes a com munication to a foreign country, that communication is made by a responsible individual, who must take care that what he states is an accurate representation of the communication which he intends to make, and no ques tion can arise as to the authenticity of such a statement. But this cannot be so with regard to private individuals —(hear) and I wish to put on record that the present pro ceeding has been irregular, so that it will never be brought into a precedent. (Cheers.) Now, with regard to the hon. member for Sunderland, and my learned friend, I do not find fault with their communicating with the Emperor— but they should follow the plan whieh the hon. member for Sunderland followed on former occasions, and make their communication to Lord Cowley. My hon. friend the mem ber for Sunderland said truly that he has been in commu nication for three years with the Emperor on matters con nected wiih commerce and navigation; but he rather im plied that he was employed by her Majesty's Gcvernment, which was not the case. The hon. gentleman having in formed her Majesty's Government that he was going to Paris, we gave him our sanction, and a letter of introduc tion to Lord Cowley, in order that he might obtain access to the Emperor. But when the hon. member returned to this country, and intimated that he wished to commu nicate what took place between himself and the Em peror of the French, it appeared to nay noble friend at the head of the Foreign Office and myself, that we ought not to receive such communication through an unofficial channel. The case was entirely different with regard to the hon. member for Rochdale, because that hon. gentleman was employed officially in connection with Lord Cowley, and, although he was too high-minded to receive any salary, still he was literally a diplomatic agent employed by her Majesty's Government for a special purpose. But the hon. member for Sunderland was not employed in such a ca pacity, and it was on this account that we did not think it desirable to receive backward and forward communications through the hon. member. I trust the discussion will end here--(hear, hear)—and I think one result of the past dia -1 cussicns will be to lead the Emperor to close the door against hon. members. (Hear, hear.) The O'DONOGHUE wished, on the part of his country men, to enter his protest against the strong spirit of hos tility to the United States which had been exhibited during the discussion of the motion. (Oh.) He thought the United States were entitled to their most unbounded gratitude, and there in his place, on behalf of himself and his country, he begged to tender it to both North and South. (Cries of " No, no," from the Irish members.) Well, there might be difference of opinion between hon. members, but he did not believe there were any such differ ence amongst the people of Ireland. (Oh.) He would not say more on that occasion, but that—(here the hon. gentle man was altogether at a loss for some time, though repeat edly encouraged by cries of "Hear, hear," and " Agreed," from Sir R. Peel and other hon. members.) After some further delay he proceeded to say that his sympathies leaned much more to the North than to the South, simply because the object of the North throughout had been the reconstruc tion of the Union. Sh ou ld it happen, however, that the Union should be restored by the triumph of the South, he should be equally rejoiced that the greatest misfortune that could befal, not only America, but the world, had been pro videntially averted. (Oh, and hear.) RUSSIA AND POLAND. After some conversation, in which Mr. Hennessy, Mr. Horsman, and Lord Palmerston took part, it was agreed that the further discussion of this question should be resumed on Monday next. FORTIFICAI (PAyMBNT I'O BANK OF ENGLAND) BILL. This bill passed through committee. FORTIFICATIt .NS (PROVISIONS FOR EiPENSES) BILL. _ The house went into committee on this Lill. Upon clause 2, Sir F. GOLDSMID complained of the piecemeal manner in which Government contracts were made. Lord PALMERSTON said it was not a deshable course, but it had been rendered necessary by the mode of proceed ing adopted by Parliament, which would not levy the whole amount for payment at the same time. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY thought those contracts ought to be reported to the house. (Hear.) He had heard that land had been purchased at Redhill which was to serve for a prison as well as a fortress. He should like to know whether fortresses of that kind were to be constructed all over the country without the interference of Parliament? The Marquis of HA RTINGTON promised the fullest information shortly, but he would then state that the ground at Redhill had not been purchased out of any moneys to be raised under that act. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said his only object was to in sure that whatever contracts might be entered into should be known beforehand to the house, and that they should not be called upon to vote money by compulsion. (Hear.) Sir S. NO RTHCOTE said he had before entered his pro test against piecemeal voting for fortifications, and he then did so again. He thought the gross sum ought to be stated and voted at once ; but, knowing the feeling of the house, he would not press the question further. Mr. NEWDEGATE objected to the establishment of a central arsenal at Cannock's Chase. Mr. B. OSBORNE objected that there was much doubt whether the Government meant to buy Cannock Chase or not for the central arsenal. There was no doubt that Wool wich was not adapted for the purpose, and ho should be glad to hear more upon the subject from the noble lord at the head of the Government. Ho was sorry to find that he (Mr. Osborne) had erroneously contradicted the hon. member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Newdegate) the other night, but having discovered his error he begged to do penance, and hoped the hon. gentleman would take his stand upon the evidence as given in the Blue-book, that a central arsenal should be a rallying point in case of an in vasion of London, and that Weedon was not a satisfactory position for that purpose. The house was too ready to take for granted whatever came from the Treasury Bench, but he did think that, before the bill was further proceeded with, some explanation ought to be offered whether the central arsenal was to be proceeded with, and if proceeded with, whether it was to be a complete plan of fortification for the leading powers to retire to in case London was taken. Lord PALMERSTON said that when, in 1860, he pro posed the arrangement to the house be stated that, among other things, the Government considered it neces sary to have a central arsenal. That opinion had been con firmed by military authorities, by whom it was represented that, in its present position, Woolwich was a very unsafe place for the national stores, and that to fortify it would require such an extent of works and garrison as to render the proposal altogether inadvisable. He was asked whether, by a central arsenal, the Government meant a central for tress ? His reply was that they had no intention to este - blish a great fortress in the centre of the country ; but they did think that it would be desirable to have, in some central position in the inland part of the country, an arsenal, meaning a depot at which stores might be kept and even made. (Hear, hear.) They did not propose to take any steps at present for purchasing the land Tor the pur pose, and, as before doing act it would be necessary to come again to Parliament, the house would have the opportu nity of saying whether it would be proceeded with or not. There were £BOO,OOO still unexpended of the sum taken last year, and that, with the sum of £650,000, which they now proposed to add, would give them money enough to pay all demands that would come upon the Government between this time and the end of July next year. They would then have to propose another bill, and Parliament would see from its schedule what had been expended and what re mained to be expended upon each particular work. He could not, however, imagine that Parliament would sanc tion the beginning of a work and then stop short before it was completed. After a few words from Sir F. SMITH and Capt. JERVIS, The clause was agreed to, as were also the remaining clauses of the bill. Sir M. PETO moved to omit from the schedule of the bill the items of the Spithead forts—namely, the Horse Sand Fort, £25,000—N0 man's Land, £2s,ooo—and Stur bridge, £25,000. He contended that nothing had occurred to alter the state of this question since last year, and that it was almost impossible for the forts to prevent the passing of iron-clad ships. He cited evidence to this effect, and urged the Goverment to do what they did last year, sus pend the construction of these forts. Sir J. FERGUSSON maintained that the objections of Sir M. Veto were unfounded, and had been refuted by ex perience during the last 12 months. He accused him of dealing unfairly with his authorities. The amendment was opposed by the Lord Mayor and Mr. Newdegate, and supported by Captain Jervis and Mr. Lindsay. The Marquis of HARTINGTON denied that the ques tion as to the value of these forts was in the same state as last year. What had happened at Charleston neutralised the occurrences in Hampton Roads, and the power of our artillery had been greatly increased. The opponents of these forts, he observed, are narrow-minded—they were biassed in favour of floating defences. If the house was willing to trust to our navy alone, and would make that navy of sufficient strength, we should not want fixed forts, or land defences, or even Volunteers. But the house must consider what a large naval force, and what a vast expense this would involve. He thought this was not the right plan. The expense would be annual, whereas forts once built would last. Sir DE LACY EVANS observed that the arsenal at Portsmouth being peculiarly exposed, the Government were right in proposing some means for protecting t his important place. They were bound to pay attention to the reports of their professional advisers, who, he understood, had recommended certain forts to be placed near Spithead, and considering that the Government were bound to strengthen the defences of our great arsenal, he should vote for the proposition. Sir F. SMITH considered that the use of the forts, however useful, would not be commensurate with the expense. The question of invasion was utterly out of the question, and our coast defences, our improved artillery, and other resources, could be made available for protecting our dockyards from bombardment. He should vote for the amendment. Mr. B. CARTER was in favour of the Spithead forts, which, he remarked, would practically very much increase the force of our navy by releasing vessels from the office of protecting the dockyards, and they were not aggressive. Mr. OSBORNE observed that the Government called upon the house to vote the money for the erection of those forts without submitting any plan, without showing any necessity for them, and without any correct estimate of the expense, the estimate being incorrect and imperfect. Upon what ho termed "the groat gun argument," he agreed he said, to give up the question if we had a gun that would hit a ship in motion at 1,000 yards. He denied that, after all the improvements and all the enormous expense, we had a gun that would do that. When we had got such a gun, it would be time enough to construct these forts. Sir. W. JOLLIFFE thought the line line taken by the Government was a prudent one. Our great arsenals could not be made too secure. Lord C. PAGET could not see what they were to wait for with regard to the forts at Spithead. It was admitted that if guns of certain calibre were obtained, the arguments would be in favour of forts ; but he had it from the artillery officers who were conducting the experiments at Shoebury ness, that they were certain that such guns would speedily be brought to a state of perfection. (Hear.) Assuming that to be the case, let them consider the position in which they were. Would anybody tell him that Spithead was in a proper state of defer ce, or that any enemy's frigate could not run in there now and shell the dockyards ? Was that the state in which Portsmouth should remain ? The Government thought not, and proposed what they conceived would be an effectual defence. The experience of Sebastopol had been quoted in opposition to the scheme, but he main• tained that if forts had been erected in time there they would have saved the Russians many thousands of lives. In these days of steam it was impossible to maintain an efficient blockade, however numerous the blockading squad ron might be, and therefore a great arsenal like Portsmouth would never be safe from attack. Ile quite agreed that sunken stakes would be quite useless in keeping out an enemy's fleet. The large ships of tho present day would go through them in no time. The obstructions that were effective were floating obstructions, such as ropes, which would get entangled with the ship's gear. In conclusion, the noble lord recommended the proposal of the Govern ment, on the ground that they had not a gun that could be put on board ship which was capable of penetrating 10- inch plate. Sir J. D. HAY said the forts being 3,000 yards apart they could not impede the progress of any enterprising cap tain. He had no faith ir the efficacy of those large guns to which the noble lord had referred. The noble lord and him.. self had seen at Shoeburyness that the largest guns could not bear a greater charge than 351bs of powder, if they were to be useful for any time. It was true their fleet could not pass the forts at the mouth of Sebastopol harbour, but then they had no iron-clads to go in with, it was certain those forts would be inefficient protection for Portsmouth dock yards; for 1,500 yards outside the forts there were guns that would throw shells into the dockyards. Lord PALMERSTON said the balance of the argument was altogether with the advocates of forts. (Laughter.) What he desired to point out was that it had never been in their contemplation to rely entirely upon forts. The pro posal was to unite forts to floating defences ; and through out the discussion he had not heard a single member who did not affirm that forts would be useful, although it might be well if floating defences were made to too-operate with thorn. They were, therefore, practically all agreed upon the subject, and he hoped that the division would show that the House of Commons was of the same opinion as the nation in its determination that our dockyards should be adequately protected by sea and land. The committee divided— For the motion Against Majority against Sir F. GOLDSMID asked whether the expenditure for the western heights of Dover had not exceeded the es timate. The Marquis of lIARTINGTON said there had no doubt beou a miscalculation as to the expenses of the forti fications at Dover ; and although those on the eastern side had cost somewhat less than the estimate, those on the western heights had cost more, owing to a dispute with the contractor havinE- been referred to arbitration, and unex pectedly decided against the Government. After a few wordo from Mr. C. BERKELEY, The schedule was agreed to, and the house resumed. UNION RELIEF AJD ACTS CONTINUANCE BILL This bill was read a second time. The Sydney Branch Min,' Bill and the Alkali Works Re gulation Bill were read a thin d time and passed. INDIA STOCK BILL. This bill was amended and coDsidered. COURT OF SESSION (SCOTLAND) BILL. The order of the day for the committee on this bill was discharged. The Companies' Clauses Bill went through committee, as did also the Waterworks Clauses Bill. SUPPLY—REPORT. The report of the cotnmitteo of supply was brought up and received. VOLUNTEERS' BILL. The Lords' amendments to this bill were considered. Mr. J. P. HENNESSY congratulated the house and himself that the right of appeal for which he had contended had been granted to the volunteers in the House of Lords. The alteration was useful and important, and he was glad the Government had introduced it. Mr. COX had contended in that house in vain for the establishment of courts of inquiry, or appeal from the deci • sions of commanding officers; but the House of Lords had supplied the deficiency. He should say with the late Mr. Cobbett, that he thanked God we had a House of Lords. (A. laugh.) Mr. D. GRIFFITH said that the pressure which had been brought to bear upon the noble earl (Earl de Grey and Ripon) had had the desired effect. _ _ The Marquis of HARTINGTON said that the law stood just as it had stood before. The hon. member for Fins bury was quite mistaken if he fancied that he had pre vailed in his suggestion or achieved any triumph. Lord De Grey had received the deputation which waited upon him, and in compliance with thpir suggestions he had em bodied a clause in the bill which made more clear the right of appeal whit h the volunteers had previously possessed. Mr. SELWYN regretted that the Lords had struck out the clauses with regard to rifle ranges, and contended that it was useless to supply the vnlnnteers with arms of preci sion if they were not also afforded the opportunity of learn ing their use. (Hear, hear.) He believed that they had been struck out under misapprehension, and he should sup port the Government if they asked the house to disagree with the amendment. The Marquis of HARTINGTON also regretted the course pursued by the House of Lords in this matter ; but as disagreement would lead to delay, and as the bill as it stood would be useful to the volunteers, he should ask the house, under the circumstances, to agree to the amend ment. The amendment was agreed to, as were also the other amendments of the Lords. The Lords' amendments to the Regimental Debts, &c., were also agreed to. The Waywardens' Contracts Bill was read a third time and passed. The Nuisances Removal Act (1355) Amendment Bill was considered as amended. Leave was given to Mr. SCHOLEFIELD to introduce a bill to amend the Lunacy Acts in relation to the building of asylums for pauper lunatics; and to the Attorney-General for Ireland to bring in a bill to amend the Petty Sessions Acts (Ireland), 1851 and 1858. The bills were read a first time. The house adjourned at ten minutes to one o'clock. COUNTRY MARKETS. GLOUCESTER-JULY 11. The show of wheat to-day was very limited, with a small attendance of farmers. English wheat, with a limited sale, at late rates ; and foreign declined is per qr., with a retail sale. Oats and beans very dull. Barley firm, COLCHESTER.-JULY 4. A small show of wheat, but quite sufficient for the de mand. Trade slow, and prices were rather lower. Beans, with a steady business doing, were sold at previous rates. Peas rather cheaper. ____ Wheat 4white - 46s 56s Beans, Mazagan ..30s 33s red 42s 52s middle & 8ma11.35s 42s Barley Oats 208 26s gray 358 38s CHELMSFORD-JULY 10. At this corn exchange to-day there was a very thin attendance, and the small amount of business done was at the prices of last week. _ Wheat; old white...3os 63s new ..340 50s old red.... 368 48s new 34s 45s Barley 28s 36s Chevalier ..28s 40s Grinding 22s 31s Malt.... Chevalier . 640 698 Oats 20s 28s Peas, Partridge- 37s 40s White 39s 40s Boiling 4os 43s Dun 35s 38s Ditto new —s .-8 Beans, Tick, old 34s 39s new —s —s Harrow Ticks 3ss 40s new -5 —s Mazagan ..30s 38s KIRKCALDY GRAIN-JvLY 11. We had small supplies of wheat, one parcel of bar ley, and two parcels of oats. Prices were about the same as last week. Wheat. Barley. Oats. First....3os Od I 27s Od I 24s Od Second ..40s Od —s Od 25s Od Third....—s Od —s Od —s Od COAL i ?Noes of Coal per Ton a .ARKET. the close of the market. s. d. Buddle'sWest Hartley 15 0 1 liyass's'Bebside West Hartley . 15 0 I Davison's West Hart- , ley 15 0 Carway and Duffryn ! Malting ... 19 6 Eden Main 15 3 Cowpen Hartley 15 North Pelton Gas 13 3 Hastings Hartley l5 0 alker Primrose 12 6 Tanfield Moor 13 3 , Walls End. 8. d. Heugh Hall 15 9 Riddell .... 15 0 Eouth Hetton ...... ...17 3 Hartlepool.. l6 6 Trimdon Hartlepool 16 6 South Hartlepool 15 3 East Hartlepool 16 9 IS elloe South Kelloe. l5 9 Tunstall Cassop Stewart's 16 9 Framwellgate.. l5 0 Byron 16 9 Russel's Hetton 15 9 71; sold, 50. Walls End. Haswell l7 6 Ships at mark( Foreign Mail Packet List. MAILS DUE. Aus'aalia and Mauritius, via Southampton. July 19. via Marseilles July 13. Brazil and Cape Verds, by British packet. Aug. 4. Cape of Good Hope, Ascension, and St. Helena July 29. China, Penang, and Singapore, via Southampton July 19. via Marseilles July 13. Falkland Islands .. Gibraltar, via Southampton July U. India (Calcutta), and Ceylon, via Southampton July 19. via Marseilles July 13. India (Bombay), via Southampton .. via Marseilles July 20. Portugal.... Malta, Egypt, and Aden, via Southampton July 11. via Marseilles July 13. Newfoundland ~July 22. Oporto and Vigo U. S. and British N. America, by Brit. packet.... July 16. by U.S. packet.... b Canaul W.C. of Afric a , M a d e i ra, and Ty eneriffo dian pack et. July 1 1 0 0. Bahamas, via New York July 30. Mexico.. July 29. All parts of We s t I n di es , i nc l u di ng Chili, Fern, July 14. California. and British Columbia.. The Gazette de France registers the respective ages of theOpposition•Candidates as follows :—Berryer, 73, Marie, 68, Thiers, 66, Havin, 64, Lanjuinais, 62, Jules Favre, 54, Guerolt, 53, Jules Simon, 49, Pelletan, 49, Darimon, 44, Emile 011ivier and Picard about 40 years [ADVERTISEMENT.]—HoIIoway's Ointment and Pills.— Excessive Infant Mortality,—The unusually large number of deaths occurring daily from scarlatina, measles diphtheria bronchitis, inflammation of th e l ungs, an d ot h er ciseases of" childhood, may be diminished by the proper application of Holloway's medicaments, which may be safely and effectively used by every mother and nurse. The Ointment should be rubbed at least twice a day upon the skin, as near as possible to the seat of disease, while the Pills in proper doses, are administered internally, either in syrup, honey, or dissolved in water. Under this treat ment a change for the better will soon be observed, the symptoms will be less severe, the sufferings less distress ing, and many anxious hours spared to doting parents. Births. BAILY.—On the 12th inst., at 23, Palace-garden Villas, W., the wife of Walter Baily, Esq., barrister-at-law, of a daughter. KENT.—On the 10th inst., at The Tower, Llangollen, Mrs. Savill Kent, of a daughter, stillborn. PIATTL—On the 12th inst., at 1, Queen's-gardens, Hyde park, Mduie. Alfred Piaui, of a daughter. Marriages. CASTLE—HINDS.—On the 9th inst., at Pulham, Dorset, Charles Castle, Esq., of Westgate Tower, Canterbury, to Margaret Emmeline, only daughter of the Rev. J. T. Hinds, M.A., rector of Pulham. HIBBURD—VERRALL.-0/ 1 tile nth inst., at Lewes, Sus sex, Alfred Hibburd, of London, to Clarissa, only sur viving daughter of Mr. J. Verrall, of Lewes. Deaths. HUTCHISON.—On the 12th inst., at the Oratory, Bronipton, the Rev. F, W. A. H u t c hi son , aged 40. JunsoN.--On the 12th inst , at his residence, 8, Old Steins, Brighton, Henry Judson, Esq., aged 70. SMITII.—On the 12th inst., at his residence, Clarence House, Reading, Jason Smith, Esq., aged 61. TIGRE.-01.1 the 9th inst., at Rossana, co. Wicklow, the Lady Kathleen Tighe, aged 36. VIGNE.—On the 12th inst., at The Oaks, Woodford, Essex, Godfrey Thomas Vine, F.G.S. WARE.—On the 9th inst., at Chard, Somerset, Samuel AVare, Esq., aged 61. WILLIE.—On the Bth inst., at Chalk Villa, near Beverley', Mr. John Willis, aged 49. London : Printed and Published by WILLIAM ANDREWS , of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at THE SUN MCC, NO. 11 2, Strand, iu the Precinct of the 3avoy, in the CountY of Middiesex.—Tuesday, July 14, 1863. N' A P "., Ed, Jan The Rinz, Me duced Loy Fen ledge then Th durit IF5i. 7859. 18'0. 1861. 1862. T 1 ajsu Th on a limi Sha