The Sun. — London, England, 1863-02-25 00:00:00

IMPERIAL P . HOUSE OF LORDS—Last Evening. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack. at five o'clock. CIRCASSIA. The Marquis of NORMANBY presented a petition from Macclesfield complaining of the non-reception of certain Circassian deputies by her Majesty. METROPOLITAN RAILWAY. Earl DERBY presented a petition from the Rev. Mr. Denton, of St. Bartholomew, Cripplegate, against certain provisions of the proposed metropolitan railways. PRIVATE BUSINESS. On the motion of Lord REDESDA.LE, the London Rail way (Victoria section) and the Sidmouth and Budleigh aillerton Railway Bills were read a second time. EAST GLOUCESTERSHIRE RAILWAY BILL. On the motion for reading this bill a second time, Lord REDES DALE thought the bill was one that ought not to be allowed to proceed. He thought the direc tors of the Great Western Railway had been very impru dent in having anything to do with the matter, and although a change had come over that company with respect to this bill, it was more on the part of the shareholders than the directors. He therefore moved that the bill be react a second time that day six months. The Marquis of CL AN RIC ARDE said before a private bill was rejected on the second reading some inquiry aught to be made. Lord REDESDA LE said the bill was brought in con trary to the Regulations laid down, and it was necessary to stand up for precedent. The Marquis of CLA XRICARDE hoped the bill would be postponed instead of rejected, because he had just been informed that it was one of great importance to Ireland. He therefore moved the adjournment of the debate for a fortnight. Their lordships were about to divide, when the motion for the adjournment of the debate was agreed to. ENGLISH CHURCH SERVICES IN WALES BILL. The Bishop of BANGOR moved the second reading of this bill, the object of which was to enable private parties to establish chapels in Wales where the services might be per formed in the English language. Such a step had become necessary, in consequence of the great number of English who had become located in the Principality, The bill was read a second time. VOLUN LEER FIELD-DAY. Lord STRATHE DEN asked the Under-Secretary of State for War, whAher her Majesty's Government are prepared to enforc3 that part of the report of the Volunteer Commission which recommends the delay of brigade and divisional field-days until the end of the battalion drill season? Earl DE GREY said that Government were anxious, as far as possible, to carry out the recommendation of the volunteer commission, but there was no intention to issue any order founded on that portion of the report alluded to by the noble lord. He had heard from other sources as well as from the evidence taken before the commissioners, that 'when volunteer field days had been held early in the spring there had been great difficulty on the part of the officers to induce the members of their corps to come up for ordinary drill, and that had injured the general efficiency of the corps. Although it was very desirable that these great dis plays of the year should take place as late in the season as possible when convenient to the members, yet with the great majority there were very few days on which they could assemble, and the day on which the greatest number could be got together was Easter Monday. His noble friend thought Whit-Monday would do as well. If that day could be made the greatest holiday of the year it would be a great advantage ; but her Majesty's Government had no power, so long as Easter Monday remained the greatest holiday, to call out the volunteers on Whit-Monday. (Hear.) The Government had no power to call out the volunteers in time of peace, and they were not prepared to name either the days or the places on which these displays should take place. These appointments were left to the commanding officers, who he had no doubt would pay attention to the recommendations of the commissioners. That was the course the Government would continue to pursue, and therefore they would not found any orders upon the recommenda tions of the commmissioners. But at the same time he trusted that the commanding officers would carefully con sider the importance of recommendations coming from so high an authority, and that they would take every possible pains to prevent the falling off in drill of their men after so early a day as Easter Monday. He hoped that a stricter test of efficiency would be enforced, and that it would be the interest of commanding officers to take the best steps in their power to insure the efficiency of their corps. He could do no more than express a hope that the necessary care would be taken by the commanding officers. Lord CAMPBELL replied, and the conversation ended. Their lordships adjourned at 20 minutes after 6 o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS—Last Evening. The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock. NEW MEMBER. Mr. ADDINGTON took the oaths and his seat for Abing don. SECOND READINGS. The following bills were read a second time :—Coventry Market House, Galway Water, and Regent Market (Lei cester-square). DEAL IMPROVEMENT BILL. The second reading was postponed until Thursday. The second reading of the Gravesend and Milton Gas and Vale of Neath Railway Bills was postponed until to-morrow. PRIVATE BILLS. On the motion of Mr. MAssEv, the following order was agreed to with respect to the following bills :—That in the cases of the South Mayo Railway Bill, the Cookstown and Pomeroy Railway Bill, and the South London Market Bill, Standing Order 170 be suspended, and that the parties be perwitted to present the petitions for leave to bring in the said bills, provided the same be presented not later than Wednesday, the 25th instant, notwithstanding that more than three clear days have elapsed since the indorsement of the said petitions by the Examiner. GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAY. On the motion of Mr. C. FORSTER, the following motion was agreed to—That the order, that the Great Northern Railway (Nottingham Extension) Bill be com mitted, be read and discharged, and the bill be withdrawn. METROPOLITAN RAILWAYS—THE METRO POLITAN BOARD OF WORKS. Mr. MASSEY proposed an alteration in the standing orders, in order to enable municipal authorities to be heard against any bill which injuriously affected their interests. He explained that, as the clause stood, though private indivi duals could appear against a bill upstairs, the Metropolitan Board of Works had no locus stanch before these tribunals. The new standing orders would remedy this defect. Mr. H. LEWIS expressed his thanks to the hon. gen tleman for so quickly making an alteration in the standing order. Mr. LOCKE said - the time had arrived when the schemes of the railway companies and others should be reviewed, and, if requisite, opposed by some competent public body. He doubted, if such a tribunal had been in existence when the ugly viaducts were proposed to cross the new street from Blackfriar's-bridge and the Mansion-house, or the one across Ludgate-hill, which would completely destroy the view of St. Paul's Cathedral, it would have given its consent. The unsightly viaducts, when erected, would be a disgrace to the metropolis. After a few words from Mr. Cox, Mr. W. PATTEN, and Capt. JAitvis, the motion was agreed to. PETITIONS. ROMAN CATHOLICS. Sir B. BRIDGES, against the admission of Roman Catholic chaplains to prisons. EPPING FOREST. Mr. COX (2) complaining of the recent inclosures, and praying for redreee. Mr. G. LANGTON, to the same effect. FIRE INSURANCE. An lioN. MEMBER, from Youghal, in favour of a modifi cation. INCOME TAX. An MN, MEM HER, from Harwich, praying for a modi fication, and that incomes under ,Ll5O be exempted. Mr. HUBBABD, from members of the College of Sur geons, praying for a re .adjustment of this tax, and that the charge on professors might be reduced. SUGAR DUTIES. 31r.WARNER, from Norwich, in favour of an equalisa tion. IRISH SXLMON FISHERIES BILL. Mr. VANCE, from Dublin, against. - Col. DUNNE, nine petitions from various parts of Ire land, in favour. SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS. B° MIES, five, praying that the sale of intoxicating liquors on the Sabbath may be prohibited. INCLOSURE OF FORESTS, &C.—MESSAGE FH93I THE Sir GEORGE GREY ( ; 4 " EN • Majesty at the bar and delivered the reply from her answer to a recent address agreed to by .theYhin praying that she might be graciously please direct that no forest, common, or other lands within 12 m re i e le t z ti o e f the metropolis of the public. be enclosed, but be retained for the After reciting the nature of the address,her .Majesty says :—" The desire made in this addr ess will receive from me due consideration." RETURNS. --- Returns were ordered of the detail of £150,000 estimated for commercial harbours, to Sir 11. STRICEY ; voluminous returns regarding spirits, and also the income tax, to Mr. MOFFIT ; of the amount of education grants paid last year, to Mr. HENLEY; of the number of brewers' licenses, to Mr. BA S S ; an d th e re p or t o f the committee on small bore rifles, to Mr. KINNATRD. NOTICES OF MOTION. DONATIONS AND BM/UE.3l'3 (IREL IND). Mr. HA.SSA.RD, that oa Tuesday, the 24th of Barth, he should cAll attention to donations and bequests in Ire land, and propose a resolution to the effect that the mode of managing this property be assimilated to that adopted in England, so far as the circumstances would permit. MARRIAGES (IRELAND). Mr. MONSE LL, on Thursday night, that ho should move for leave to introduce a bill to provide for the re4ds,-, tration of marriages in Ireland. INi.:O3IE TAX. Mr. Ingr2,ARD, on Tuesday, the 24th of March, cer tat resolutions in respect to inComes ott trade and profes sions and funded property, PROMOTION IN DOCKYARDS. Mr. PERRAND asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the Board intended to rescind the regulation, bearing date the 16th day of October, 1861, relating to pro motion in the Royal dockyards ? Lord C. PAGET replied that the Admiralty had 10 in tention to rescind the regulation referred to. The War in America—France & the Federals Mr. HOPWOOD asked the First Lord of the Treasury, if there was any correspondence between her Majesty's Government and the Emperor of the French relative to the offer of mediation between the Federal and Confederate States; and if so, whether there would be any objection to lay it upon the table of the house; also, if her Majesty's Go vernment were aware that any reply on the subject had been received by the Emperor of the French from the Federal Government? Lord LALME lt ST ON replied that the only official docu • meat in the dispatch, bearing date the 13th of March, from Lord Russell to Lord Cowley in reference to a verbal com munication which he had received from the French Ambas sador, was already on the table of the house. With respect to any communication that had been received from the French Minister at Washington from the Federal Go vernment in relation to the war, he (Lord Palmerston) was sure that the house would not deem it convenient, even if it were desirable or possible, to state the nature of commu nications between Foreign Governments and their agents. GOVERNMENT ARTIFICERS. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY asked the Secretary of State for War, whether the numbers of the foremen, artificers, workmen, &c. in the various manufactories of the war department were not omitted in the Army Estimates for the year 1863-4 ; and, if so, whether the Secretary of State for War would take care that the omission was supplied in the same form as in the Army Estimate of 1862-3. Sir. G. C. LEWIS replied that the War Estimates were very carefully prepared, but it was not considered that the information specified would be useful, because the artificers were paid by piece, and thus their earnings greatly varied. But if the hon. baronet desired it he should feel happy to furnish it. (Hear, hear.) THE SUPPLY OF SALMON. In reply to Mr. T. SMITH, Sir G. GREY said a bill would be introduced to prevent the exportation of salmon during the fence months. ITALY.--E K TRADITiON TREATY. In reply to Sir G. BOWYER, Mr. LAYARD replied that no treaty, convention, or agreement had been entered into with the King of Italy of the nature specified. The Italian Government had pre pared an extradition treaty with this country with respect to the delivering up of criminals, many of whom had taken refuge at Malta. It had no reference to political offenders. (Hear, hear.) So soon as the treaty was finally agreed to by the local council and the Italian Government it would be laid on the table of the house. (Hear, hear.) SALMON FISHERIES BILL (IRELAND). Mr. M'MAHON, at the request of Sir R. PEEL, post poned further proceeding with this bill until to-morrow week. Lord PALMERSTON said, as in that case there would be no particular public business standing for to-morrow, nor private business of any special importance, perhaps it would meet the convenience of the house if he were to move that at its rising it be adjourned until Thursday.— Agreed to. Mr. HADFIELD inquired if the house would sit on the 10th of March—a day anticipated to be an universal holi • day? (Cheers.) Lord PALMERSTON—Sir, I imagine you will be in attendance elsewhere oa that day, and in that case, pro bably, the house will not deem it requisite to sit. (Hear.) THE NAVAL SERVICE. Sir. J. HAY rose to move the resolution of which he had given notice, omitting, however, the fourth clause. The noble lord at the head of the Government had at the last moment given notice of a committee on the same subject. It might at first sight appear disrespectful on his part to press his motion, but he felt certain the house would not long consider it so when they remembered that the Chan cellor of the Exchequer had laid down the axiom that the referring a subject to a committee was shelving it, The Chancellor of the Exchequer shook his head, but the right hon. gentleman submitted that axiom to the house on a previous occasion. They therefore well knew what the Government meant by referring any subject to a commit tee. The hon. and gallant member then referred to the past proceedings in that house and ,elsewhere with regard to this subject, and he complained of the speech made re cently at Devonport by the first sea Lord of the Admiralty, professing ignorance on the complaints of the officers of the navy, and also to a circular issued by the Admiralty con demning combinations among officers to make their griev ances known, in order to prevent them obtaining their just rights. He next referred to what had been done to obtain a correct account of the feelings of the officers of the navy on the subjects matter of complaint, and he directed atten tion to inaccuracies in the document that had been issued , by the Admiralty as to the cost of the proposed alterations. He denied that the navy had been restored to a satisfactory condition. Promotion, it was true, had been more steady in 1861 and 1862 than it bad been since the war of 1815 ; but he felt convinced there would be greater stagnation and irregularity of promotion during the nsxt 1C years then there had been before. The advan tage attending his plan would be to give the navy a younger class of officers, and consequently officers with more efficient powers. The system was adopted in all the foreign navies. and Admiral Munday, one of the most distinguished offi cers in the service, pointed out, in a work just published by him, the inferiority of the British navy in comparison with the French, in consequence of this system being in practice in their navy. To obtain the retirement of naval officers it would be necessary first of all to increase the retired list of the navy, by transferring to it a certain number of officers from the active list. At that moment there were six diffe rent descriptions of retired lists of admirals, 10 of retired lists of captains, four of commanders, and three of lieuten ants. In each of those lists there were individual officers to be found, some with longer and some with shorter periods of service than in others of the lists; all were intermixed ; it was impossible to discriminate between the different lists. At the same time, the greatest jealousy existed between officers on different lists. The system was merely a hand to-mouth one. At one moment a certain number of offi cers were bribed off the active list for 18s. 6d. a day, and a little later on two more were bribed off at 255. a day, and these had not been of the same standing as their brethren ' who had been bribed off at the lower figure. His proposi tion was to amalgamate the several lists, giving to each a proper amount of retirement, according to the services per formed. It would be necessary now to provide for a few very distinguished admirals at the head of the list. As soon as ever an officer passed the ago of a given rank, he should be retired to the rank above, thus getting a step in rank, while he was obliged to go upon the retired list. It was likewise suggested that some of the admirals who had commanded fleets should receive rank correspond ing to that of field marshal in the army ; and the event that was so shortly to come off seemed a gracious occa sion for giving effect to that suggestion. At the same time it was proposed that the numbe thus appointed to the highest rank in the navy should eventually not ex ceed three. The list of admirals should be reduced to sixty. At the present moment twenty admirals were employed— namely, fifteen on active service, and five in connection with the Board of Admiralty. The captains should be reduced from 350 to 250, and of the total number of captains no more than from 115 to 120 were employed. Such a regula tion would give the captains an opportunity of constant em ployment, or of retiring from the list. He proposed to reduce the active list generally from 1,753 to 1,313, and prevent its further increase. What was wanted in the navy was not only promotion, but a steady flow of promotion. He next desired to bring under the notice of the house the excessive lowness of the scale of pay in the navy. The theory ad vanced in the circular sent forth in the year 1816 was that the pay of the navy was fixed with reference to the pay of soefrvainceasdevmairsavl e c r o y rn d ra iff a e u re d n in t.... i T n. h o u b s i , ef the pay and the . army. Nev er th eless, the pay of the rank corresponding a n llo t w he an tw ce o s were only £2,930 a year, whil e t h e pay of a general commanding in-chief was £4,155 ;—of a vice -admiral, £2,555 ; of a lieutenant-general, £4,051;—0f a rear-admiral .E 2,190, including table-money; and of a major -general, the corre sponding rank, £3,904. However, it was asserted in the circular that there were circumstances attending the posi tion of naval commanders which counterbalanced the superior pay allowed to military officers in command. For instance, their chances of prize money were put for; ward as one element of compensation. And here he might stop to ask what had become of the prize money earned during the last ten years by the navy; what had become of the prize money earned at Kertch? (Hear, hear.) But it should also be remembered that this scale of pay and allow ance to military commanders was quite independent of their appointments to regiments. Moreover, the batta and allow ances that used to be given to naval commanders was taken from them a few years beak ; and the result was that the commander-in-chief on the East India station, who used to receive £4,500 a year, now got only £2,190 a year. The mili tary, however, continued in receipt of the old scale of pay and allowances. Indeed, on that distant station, no public servants were so badly remunerated as the officers of the navy. He asked, then, that the pay of naval officers com manding in the East Indies should be so increased as to prevent the necessity of their running into debt. At present, the c ommander-in chief on the Mediterranean station--one of the most important commands under the Crown—re ceived only £2 , 0 00 a year. Well, he proposed to increase his pay Formerlyooo a the command ii ro didon thneotWpreostpolsnedtioa return to that state of things, but he did hold that it was proper that the officer in command on that station should receive an amount of pay that would not require him to disburse a considerable sum out of his private resources on the requirements of the public service. Since the year 1815 the pay of the captains had been considerably reduced. At that period the average rate of pay among s t the captains was £565 a year, while now, including the command money, it was only £550, while there were some on the active list Who reeeited only £365. As for the cdmmand Motley, its average rate was tut 15 10s. Be fore command ineneY was given captains, although thby were in the habit of entertaining, were not com pelled to do so ; but now they were obliged, for if they didn't ) the £9O which they received as command money was pointed at. it was true, military officers purchased their tommissions ; but he was sure that there was no officer who before he obtained his flag, had not expended between £3,000 and £4,000 of his private money upon the service. Then the naval officer wee liable at any moment to be turned adrift upon half-pay, utterly insufficient; while on rejoin ing a ship, a captain was obliged to spend £4OO or £5OO on the outfit of his ship, and even the lieutenant had to dis pense a considerable sum before ho was in a condition to perform his duty. The hon. and gallant officer went into considerable detail to show that the best position which a captain in the English navy could attain, after 60 years' service, and the greatest possible luck, was the pay of £766 a year; and then contrasted it with the fact that in the naval estimates just presented to the house provision was made for the solicitor to the Admiralty retiring on a pension of £746 a year, after 18 years' service. As compared with the civil service, every branch of the navy was in a much infe rior position. A comparison of the scale of pay in the Eng fish navy with that of foreign navies would show the great inferiority of our own service. The highest full sea pay in the English navy of a captain was £766, and the lowest was £365; while the pay in the American navy was £875 a year, or 140 per cent. higher than the average pay of the captains in the English navy. Captains half-pay in the English service varied from £264 to £l9l per year; while in the American navy it was £625, or 227 per cent, higher than that of English officers. Commanders in the English navy, with their command money, received £364 a year. The American full pay of the same rank was £654 a year; while their half pay of £468 a year was higher than the English full pay. An English lieutenant in command, including command money, received £219 per year ; while the American officer was paid £551 55., or an excess of 143 per cent. The pay of the French officer of the same class was £355 a year, or an excess of 62 per cent. over the pay in the English navy. The highest pay of an English lieutenant serving on board a ship was £2OO, while an American lieutenant serving in the same position received £468 a year, and the French officer £355 a year. The lowest pay of an English lieutenant was £lB2, of an American £312. The highest half-pay of the English lieutenant was £ll5 and the lowest £75, while the American scale was £302 and £250 respectively, being 242 per cent. in excess of the English. This comparison showed that the officers of the American navy were paid more than double of what English officers received. He did not wish to detain the house by going through the pay of the sur geons of the English navy, except to say that when a cap tain paid off his ship he found himself en less half. pay than his surgeon, whose class had had something like a measure of justice awarded to them, thanks to their own remon strances. He would submit to the house whether it was right for the Government to suggest in this way to officers that nothing would be yielded to justice, but everything would be given to compulsion. Another fact ho would state was, that the junior captain of a regiment—ranking with a junior naval lieutenant—serving in China received £46 a year more than the naval captain commanding the naval brigade in China, the senior naval officer on that part of the station. One of the suggestions in the proposed plan would, he was sure, carry with it the wishes of the house. It was that naval lieutenants should be encouraged to serve by having 6d. a day increase of pay for every year's service up to 20, and then be enabled to retire with a step in rank. It would be desirable also to adopt the plan of giving first lieutenants, who took the trouble to qualify themselves in gunnery, so as to instruct others, additional pay, on the principle that adjutants were paid in the army. It was one of those alterations which would alone render the navy efficient. Another point to which he wished to allude was the necessity of reducing the number of cadets entering the navy. The proposal in the suggestions, in which he heartily concurred, was, that no more cadets should be introduced into the navy than could be absorbed by a proper system of promotion. The condition of the warrant officers of the navy would have to be improved, and en couragement held out to the very best men to accept those posit ions. Another point was the establishment of naval colleges, which were not only a great advantage, but an absolute necessity. He regretted to state that, out of 250 boys, no less than 27, of thirteen and fourteen years ofage, had been sent to Hasler Hospital, suffering from a disease which was too loathsome to mention. Had such a state of things arisen at any public school in the country, no Eng lish gentleman would have allowed his son to remain there a single day. (Hear, hear.) It had been stated that it was necessary that lads should go to sea early; but he might mention that Lord Dundenald, a:most distinguished naval officer, did not go to sea until he was nearly 18 years of age, and he thought that those lads should be kept at school till they were of about the same age. The hon. and gallant gentleman concluded by moving the resolution of which he had given notice, namely That this house will, upon Thursday next, resolve itself into a committee to consider of an humble address to be presented to her Majesty submitting to her Majesty that, in the opinion of this house-1. The position of the officers of her Majesty's naval service, in respect of promo tion and retirement, is not satisfactory, and ought to be amended. 2. That with a view to the increased efficiency of the naval service, and to meet the just expectations of officers with respect to promotion, it is desirable to adopt for all ranks the principle of retirement by age. 3. That the pay of naval officers ought to be so adjusted as to enable them consistently to maintain the rank they bold, and to give them fair remuneration for honourable service." (Cheers.) Sir J. ELPHINSTONE rose to reply; but the hon. baronet ultimately gave way to the repeated calls for Lord Palmerston. Lord PALMERSTON said—Doing full justice, as I am prepared to do, to the motives of the hon. and gallant officer who has made this motion, and convinced as I um that he has been actuated by nothing more than an honourable desire to promote the interests of the service of which he is a distinguished ornament, yet I cannot refrain from dis senting from the course which out of the house, and now in the house, the hon. and gallant officer has thought fit to pursue, (Hear, hear.) If there is one principle with regard to military and naval bodies which ought more than any other to be borne in mind, it is that military and naval bodies ought not to become deliberative assemblies, with the view especially of enforcing on the Government what they conceive will be changes for their own benefit and ad vantage. (Cheers.) It is a most dangerous precedent if it be admitted that the navy of the country or the army of the country are to meet together and to appoint committees, which committees are to correspond with every member of the profession with a view to inciting them to state griev ances which they feel, or to feel grievances of v. hich they were not hitherto aware. (Cheers and laughter.) Such proceedings must tend to shake the foundation of military and naval discipline, and are most dangerous in their pos sible consequences. (Cheers.) I have too high an opinion of the naval officers of this country to entertain any appre hension as to the result of the labours of the committee of which the hon. and gallant officer has this evening been the mouthpiece. But I say the principle on which they have acted is a dangerous principle, and, I trust, will not be deemed a precedent for future proceedings. (Hear, hear.) When you ask members of a profession, individually or collectively, whether they would not like a little more pay or earlier promotion, whether they don't think that other people in some respects are better off than themselves, and whether they wont feel obliged to any man who will stand forward as their champion with the view to obtain advan tages of some sort or another, if you know human nature you know what the answer will be. (Hear, hear.) Tho hon. and gallant officer has stated in a very impressive manner that which I have no doubt in many cases is perfectly true, that hardships are felt by members of the naval profession from the inadequacy of their pay to the demands made upon them and the slowness of promotion, But is the navy the only service in which you can find those complaints, and often well-founded com plaints ? Are there no such complaints in the Church ? Are there no complaints in the law ? Are there no complaints in the civil service ? In every one of these great national pro fessions will you not find men of merit and talent, who justly feel their advancement is not equal to their preten sions and qualities, and that the remuneration which they receive is not nearly sufficient to furnish them with all the means to maintain the position which they desire ? But we are obliged to look at these things on a great scale, and can not deal with one profession singly and by itself. (Hear.) If you begin to increase the pay and advantages of one pro fession, you will be called on to do the same with others. You cannot improve the condition of the officers without feeling that something must be done for the men in the navy. You cannot increase the advantages of the navy without doing something for the army. You would be led, in this way, to an enormous i ncrease of national expenditure, and when the G overnment came down with the estimates founded on what th e h on. and gallant officer would call an " im proved principle,” a cry would be raised in the house and the country that it was an undue increase of expenditure, and a proportionate increase of taxation. (Cheers.) There• fore I say that the hon. and gallant officer, very naturally looking to his profession, has not sufficiently attended to the bearing of the question on the general administration and resources of the country. But I think, with all defer ence, that the course pursued by this self-constituted com mittee of officers is not altogether consistent with a due re gard to theEdiscipline of the naval service.lJ must be per mitted to say that the course which Zthe hon.:and gallant officer has taken in proposing these resolutions is not alto gether consistent with a proper regard for the legitimate functions of this house. It is impossible to pretend to pre scribe the proper limits for the action of this house. I know full well there is no part of the administration o f this mi g ht y empire, with all the organisation of this . mighty empire, which this house is not entitled to take in to considera tion, and upon consideration to propound opinions and ad vice. But in a mix e d an d b a lanced constitution like ours each branch ought well and truly to consider with great dis cretion and forbearance h ow it will exercise its functions in a particular case. (Hear.) The hon. and gallant officer has proposed three resolutions. The first bears on the sys tem of promotion and retirement in the navy; the second on the extension of a system of compulsory retirement upon certain stages of life ; and the third calls on the house to affirm that the pay and allowances of the navy ought to be THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 25, 1863. such as to enable the officers to maintain a due position in * the service. isTow, it seems to me that it is a dangerous course for this house to assume to itself administrative font tions. (Cheers,) Anybody who knows anything of ad- Ministration must know that a multitude of administration's for any one particular purpose cause confusion. But that an assembly of 650 gentlemen should be able to administer the details of any public department is, I think, a proposi tion which it is only necessary to state, in order to seo the impossibility of its application. At the same time I admit that there may be instances in which it might be fitting, in the opinion of the house, to address her Majesty's Govern ment, with a view to some particular purpose which the house may think it expedient to accomplish. But in that case, the house ought to be precise and intelligible in its recommendations. The resolution ought to be one which the Executive Government of the day might know how to carry out if it thought fit to adopt it, or which it might understand fully and in detail, in order, if it did not choose to be responsible for it, that it might be able to take such steps as the circumstances might dictate. But the resolutions of the hon. and gallant officer, if adopted to-night, would leave the Government entirely at sea as to the particular mode of acting upon them. They call upon us to say that the present system of promotion and retire ment is unsatisfactory. W ell, then, what is satisfactory ? What would the Government have to propose to the house with the view of making the present system satisfactory ? Probably the hon. and gallant member would answer, "You will find that in my speech or my memorandum." (Hear, hear, from Sir J. Hay.) But his speech and his memoran dum are no part of the decisions of this House of Parlia ment—(hear, hear) —they don't appear in our journals; they are not matters to which the Government could appeal and say, in the name of the Sovereign, " We have done that which the House of Commons asked," because the House of Commons would not have asked anything definite, pre cise, or intelligible, which the Government would know to be the object and purpose of the resolution. The same re mark holds good as the second resolution about retire ment by age. There is already, to a certain degree, a prac tical application of that principle. The hon. and gallant gentleman wishes the principle to be extended, but he doesn't say to what limit, in what way, or, in short, give any clue to enable the Admiralty to know that by doing any parti cular thing in that respect they will have accomplished the wishes of the house. I say, then, that these resolutions are so vague and indefinite in their terms that, if they were affirmed by the house, the Government, with the utmost desire to meet the intentions which the houoo might be ouppozed to have expressed, would remain perfectly in the dark as to the mode in which effect should be given to them. (Hear, hear.) I won't go into the details of that which the Admi ralty have already done upon these matters. My noble and gallant friend the Secretary to the Board, will, I have no doubt, explain fully to the house all that they have done, and in what degree the opinions and assertions of the hon. and gallant officer in regard to the many points of detail on which he has entered are well or ill founded. But as to the last resolution, which bears upon pay, I humbly submit that that is not a proposition which this house would, if well advised, think it proper to adopt. (Hear, hear.) It does not even say that the pay ought to be increased ; but there are words inserted in the concluding paragraph by which the house would pledge itself to make good the expense of any of these different propositions, Well, I hold out that it is not expedient for this house to address the Crown gravely to make an increase in any department of the public expen diture. (Hear, hear) It is for the Executive Government, upon its responsibility, if it should see fit to do so, to propose to Parliament such additions to that expenditure as they may deem necessary for the public service, and it is for this house to adopt or reject them as it pleases. (Hear, hear.) But I think the house will agree with me that it is not ad visable to address the Crown in these vague expressions, calling upon it indirectly to make a great increase in our naval expenditure —an increase which must be followed by further augmentations of charge in that very same depart ment, and which, if carried into effect with regard to the navy, could not be stopped there, but must be extended to the army, and even to the civil service also. The hon. and gallant officer dwelt very much upon a comparison of the emoluments of certain ranks in the navy with those of the army and other public departments. Now, as to a compa rison with the army it must be borne in mind that the corn insiaions in that service are purchased, and that the officers embark a considerable capital to rise to any high rank, whereas in the navy the same practice does not obtain. But in both the army and the navy, if you merely took the in comes given to men even in high rank as professional pay, why, no doubt, every man would wish that they were a great deal more. But the remuneration to these services does not consist simply in annual emoluments. (Hear, hear.) There is the respect which is paid to them in their several positions—there is the admiration which the nation feels for the service of which they are members. And it is not a vain assertion to say that honours and respect are not an insignificant element in a requital for public services, because our whole system is founded upon a contrary assumption. (Hear, hear.) We reward men by titles and by decorations ; and, when we come to the highest rewards, you, sir, reward the most distinguished commanders not by pecuniary emolu ment, but by conveying to them from that chair the thanks of this House of Parliament for the services they have ren dered to the country. (Cheers.) The highest recompense awarded to public men consists of honours showing that they have entitled themselves to the respect and regard of their fellow-countrymen. That, therefore, must be borne in mind when you consider what naval and military officers receive in return for the personal exposure they undergo and the deeds they achieve in performing their duty to their Sovereign. (Hear.) If, then, I cannot concur in the mo tion cf the hon, and gallant officer, I feel it incumbent on me to pursue on this occasion precisely the same course as I pursued two years ago with regard to the resolution moved by the hon. and gallant offizer who sits next to him (Sir J. Elphinstone). The hon. and gallant officer who made the present motion has referred to what then took place. On that occasion, resolutions had been carried which involved not only the question of promotion and retirement, but the question of pay. The house on being appealed to on a sub sequent day rescinded those resolutions, and consented to refer to a committee then sitting on Admiralty organisation the question of retirement and promotion. It so happened that that committee consumed the entire session in taking evi dence, and did not make any report. The hon. and gallant officer says they did thatwhichwas most damaging to the Ad miralty ; they reported the evidence they had taken. I might, perhap3, be allowed to interpret their course upon a different principle. The ecnumittee was not appointed in any friendly spirit to the Admiralty. Their examinations were not oon ducted with the view of heaping honour and credit upon the Admiralty. But when they came to the end of their in. e s p n o w rt a t s h o e v r e e r s , u t l h t ey or pr t u h d e en ev tl i y de a n b e s e ta t i h n e e y d f q r u o i m ri o p s u , t a t n i ri d g the int o s e a s s r i had taken. I believe, if they had done so, the report would have been favourable to the conduct and the organisation of the department they inquired into. (A laugh.) At all events, why did they not move to reappoint the committee in the ensuing session ? (Hear, hear.) If they had thought the result of the evidence they had taken was so damaging to the Admiralty as the hon. and gallant officer says, I should have imagined that pure patriotism, if no other mo tive, would have led them, for the sake of the public ser vice, to re-establish that committee the following year,with the view of bringing to a condemnatory conclusion the evi dence which he thus characterises. But no such thing. Last year was allowed to pass away without any re-esta blishment of that committee. If it had been so re-esta blished it would have gone into those questions connected with retirement and promotion which it was specially in structed to investigate, and which it was not able to do in 1861, because the time did not permit of it. Well sir, I now propose to do precisely what I did then. As the hon. and gallant member has brought this question before the house, if the house thinks it fit that an inquiry should be made into the existing system of promotion and retirement, her Majesty's Government have no objection whatever to that investigation being made, And I would propose that a committee should be appointed for the specific purpose of going now into that inquiry which the committee of 1861 could not enter upon. I therefore propose as an amend ment to the resolutions of the hon. and gallant officer those of which I have given notice—that in the first place it is in expedient for the house to pronounce an opinion on a ques tion of promotion and retirement which has been com mitted to a committee, until we shall have received the report .of a committee on this question, and that a com mittee be re- appointed for the purpose of entering on that investigation. (Loud cheers.) The noble lord concluded by moving the following resolutions, as an amendment to the motion of Sir John Hay : " 1. That this house having, on the 13th day of March, 1861, instructed a select committee to consider the present system of promotion and retirement in the Royal Navy, is of opinion that its decision should be suspended until the sutject shall have been accordingly considered and reported upon. "2. That a select committee be appointed to consider the present system of promotion and retirement in the Royal navy, and to report their opinion thereon to this house." Sir J. ELPHINSTONE said the speech of the noble lord at the head of her Majesty's Government was like the month which was about to commence ; he came in like a lion, and he went out like a lamb. As he (Sir J. Elphinstone) did not belong to the naval service of the country, the animadver sions which he passed upon the navy did not belong to him, and he stood there as an independent member, and would speak freely and boldly upon what he considered the wrongs and grievances of the officers of her Majesty's naval ser vice, which cried aloud for inquiry and redress. (Hear.) The noble lord had stated that the grievances of the Church, the law, and the civil service were also great. The Church had many members who were labouring in a good cause upon inferior incomes ; but two blacks never made a white, and that was no reason against redressing the grievances of the navy. With regard to the law, it had many representa tives in that house, and it could be shown that it was not in a very bad state. As for the civil service, its grievances had been brought before the house year after year until they had been redressed ; and he thought no complaint would come from that quarter until the claims of the navy were al lowed. He was ready to admit that it was a proud reward for a naval officer who had distinguished himself to have the thanks of that house presented to him ; but it was usual that an event of that kind was accompanied with more sub stantial marks of approbation. If the house should adopt the proposal of the noble lord, he hoped the com mittee would be appointed upon a fairer basis than the former one, which from the first had been damaged in public estimation on account of the official element which predominated in it. The grievances of the navy had fre quently been brought before Parliament and the country. It had been the invariable practice of the Admiralty to allow the grievances of the navy to attain to a point when it became necessary for the service to take the initiative and bring them before the country. As far back as 1802 Lord Nelson had complained of the inadequate pay which was allowed the officers of the navy—being in many caees less than that paid to a valet or London footman. Lord Nel son concluded a letter on the grievances of the navy by quoting some lines written at the end of the previous war : " Our God and sailor we alike adore In time of danger—not before. The danger past, both are alike requited ; God is forgotten and the sailor slighted." (A. laugh). With regard to the financial state of the ques tion. They had been told it was a most serious thing to come before that house and call upon the country to pledge itself to a trifling sum for the purpose of giving a compe tency to the most valuable officers in her Majesty's service. As for the parallel which was drawn between naval officers and those of the army, he could not admit its application. Officers of the engineers, artillery, the line, and cavalry were equally eligible to staff appointments, and they fre quently obtained those appointments in the Indian ser vice. (Rear, hear.) Admiral DUNCO NIBE said that the noble lord at the head of the Government stated the reason why the com mittee had not made a report was that the evidence was found to be in favour of the present constitution of the Admiralty, and that silence was the better discretion of the two, Let him undeceive the noble lord upon that point. Owing to the composition of that committee, everybody knew that it would prove a failure. The whole of the ex-Lords of the Admiralty were put upon the committee, and four members from the Ministerial side were added to it; and although he deprecated from the beginning that any political bias should be given to the question, yet no man could fail to see that it was impossible to expect any result from a committee in which the official element so largely prepon derated. During the first session the committee sat he was placed in the disagreeable position of public prosecutor of the Board of Admiralty. That was an office he did not choose to hold, and accordingly he did not move in the mat ter the second year. (Hear, hear.) Sir R. CLIFTON thought the question was one which deserved the consideration of the house and as he depre cated the extravagant aeliemes of the Government in fortifi cations which would turn out to be useless, while they re fused to enable officers on foreign stations to dispense the hospitality which Englishmen were always anxious to do, he should support the motion of his hon. and gallant friend. Mr. B. COCHRANE doubted if the navy would be more contented after the noble lord's speech. He wished to know if the Government intended to lay down the doctrine that the officers of the navy had no right to agitate for a redress of grievances, and were to be content with the honour and distinction only that attended rank. How was it possible for a half-pay lieutenant to feel satisfied with honour and dis tinction, when he had to feed and support a family on £73 per annum ? The hon. baronet's scheme would be most satisfactory to the navy, and he deserved their gratitude for the manner in which he had brought it forward. He con sidered it would be unjust to put officers of a certain age out of active service. There were many instances on record of ability and vigour in men of advanced ago. He asked if it was not a fact that many officers had refused to take the command of ships, because they could not afford it. They were unable, from the smallness of the pay, to bear the expense of being in commission, whore they had families to support. The declaration of Paris had done away with prize money, and he feared they would have cause to re gret it in a future war. He called attention to the bad system which had caused a delay of six years in the distribu tion of the China prize money. The army received advan tages to the detriment of the navy; but he did not com plain of that. Colonial governorships were now confined to military men. Even in the brevet on the majority of the Prinee of Wales the advantage was in favour of the army over the navy. It was no argument against the justclaims of the service to say that the energy of the country would at all times produce sufficient men for the navy. Such a policy was bad, and deserved condemnation. He hoped yet to hear that the noble lord at the head of the Government would adopt the hon. member's suggestions. Mr. FERRAND supported the motion. He wanted to know how these men were to obtain redress if they were not to petition the Board of Admiralty or solicit hon. members to bring forward their grievances in that house. He spoke of the cowed spirits of the Devonport Dockyard men, owing to the tyranny of the Board of Admiralty. The officers of the navy had petitioned that house for three years, from a knowledge that a feeling of sympathyexisted towards them, It was the fear of being in a minority that had induced the noble lord to assent to this committee, and he (Mr. Fer rand) expressed the belief that a fair and honestly appointed committee would report in favour of the hon. baronet's re solutions. He warned the Government not to resist the just demands of the navy. It was only a few of the great Whig families who obtained the prizes in the service--men who had no right to them in comparison with officers whose services had not been properly recognised. The service was not fairly treated by the Board of Admiralty. Mr. R. W. DUFF, although a general supporter of her Majesty's Government, would support the motion of the hon. member for Wakefield if it was pressed to a division. Captain TALBOT, as an officer of the navy, felt bound to repudiate the accusation advan3ed against the junior officers of the service by the noble lord at the head of the Government, that they were influenced by considerations of self-interest in supporting the present scheme. If the change were brought about, it would be found that many of those officers had made great sacrifices in accepting it. He very much feared that if the committee were re-appointed its labours would be as purposeless as those of the committee of the year before last. Mr. BENTINCK took exception to the composition of the committee which sat on the constitution of the Board of Admiralty the session before last, and the result fully justified his opposition. He moved the rejection from the committee of all who had served upon the Board of Admi ralty, but the house overruled his views. The consequence was that the time of the committee was taken up listening to long speeches from members who had been connected with the board at one time or another, laudatory of the admirable manner in which the affairs of the Admiralty had been conducted under their administration; and after seven months' sitting the committee was unable to make a report. They had ample evidence then as to what must be the sequel on this occasion if there sat upon the committee those who would be judges and jury in their own case. He agreed with much that had fallen from his hon, friend (Sir J. Hay) as to the abstract hardship of the way in which officers of the navy were remunerated for their services ; but at the same time, with the noble lord at the head of the Govern ment, he recognised the inconvenience of dealing with the question in such a manner. If the house were to pledge itself to such a resolution, that implied either fresh taxa tion or the non-remission of taxation to which the country was looking forward. Now, to the remission of taxation he should certainly not feel himself justified in offering a bar; and therefore he would suggest to his bon. friend to accept the proposal of the noble lord, and consent to have the mat ter referred to a select committee. Lord C. PAGET said he was not prepared to say that there was nat at present, or that there might not exist hereafter a class of officers in the navy which had a fair claim to higher advantages than those which they had hitherto enjoyed. But the resolutions of his hon. and gal lant friend, although they were perhaps mild enough in themselVes, were backed by a scheme which appeared to him the most impracticable and the most unfortunate for the navy he had ever heard propounded. There were two things absolutely necessary if they wished to have an effi cient navy, They should first of all have a sufficient num ber of officers of all ranks to enable them to expand their force on the sudden outbreak of a war; and, in the next place, inasmuch as men of unusual activity of mind and of body were required, it was necessary that they should have a constant flow of promotion. (Hear, hoar.) If the house would bear those two things in mind it would see how impracticable was tho scheme put forward by his honourable and gallant friend. His honourable and gallant friend would diminish the active list, and he would commence with the lieutenants, whom he would reduce to 700. But he (Lord C. Paget) could assure the house that if we were called upon to-morrow to man a squadron of 10 line-of-battle ships he did not know where a sufficient number of lieutenants could be found for the purpose. The number of lieutenants was at present 800, and if that number was reduced to the extent proposed by his hon. and gallant friend the country would have but a wretched second-class navy to enable it to encounter the emergency of a war, if such a calamity should arise. The fact was that instead of its being advisable they should reduce the number of lieutenants he believed that 1,000 lieutenants would not be too many for our navy. If, in addition, they were to reduce the admirals to 60, and the captains to 250, as proposed by his hon. and gallant friend, they would stop the whole flow of promotion, , and they would ruin the navy. He thought his gallant friend must see that so far as the lieutenants were concerned the scheme would be perfectly unbearable, though he admitted that by this scheme a great deal of promotion would be ensured. Let them look at the number of admirals they had. At the end of the war in 1816 they had 242 admirals ; 1863 they had 325. Nobody supposed that this large number was re quired for the service of the country. But why was this increase allowed to take place ? Simply to give necessary flow to promotion. His gallant friend proposed to put men on the retired list at forty. Ho (Lord C. Paget) said that the thing would be cruel to the officers, and would lead to the retired lista being almost unlimited. Sir J. HAY said he had only referred to lieutenants. Lord C. PAGET thought that system would prove im practicable, and would at all events lead to vast expense. England had such multifarious interests to watch over in every quarter of the globe that she never could consent to have her naval resources reduced to a par with those of second-rate naval powers. By the plan of his gallant friend many young men would be placed on the retired list. He did not deny, indeed, that his brother officers laboured under some disadvantages, but the arguments that had been used would lead one to suppose that the navy was getting worse and worse, and that they were falling into a " slough of despond." He did not believe in the discontent that had been imputed to the officers of the navy, even though cir culars had been scattered among them to make them believe they had grievances. (Hear, hear.) He would state some of these disadvantages, though he would not call them grievances, which implied that something was taken away to which men were enti: led. Take the comparative flow of promotion now and at the end of the great war. In order to get a proper flow of promotion they must have fair promo tion in the upper as compared with the lower classes. In 1816 there were 4,000 lieutenants, forming 67 per cent. of the whole list; consequently there were only 33 per cent. of the classes to which they could rise, therefore they had small hope of rising. In 1832 there were upwards of 3,000 lieutenants, leaving only 42 per cent. of chances of rising. In 1848 they had 2,286 lieutenant-, being 53 per cent, of lieutenants, with 47 per cent. of the higher grades. In 1863 there were 1,177 lieutenants, being 35 per cent., and leav ing open to them 65 per cent. of the higher class of the sere vice. That was a very great improvement, though he should be glad to see the improvement still greater. What he wished to shew was that the various schemes adopted from time to time had greatly improved the condition of the navy. The disadvantage under which they laboured was that they were obliged, whether at peace or at war, to promote officers because they wanted young men. In time of peace officers used to be kept in the lower ranks, and the only chance of improving their condition was a great increase in the navy ; but now they could not be suffered to remain in the lower ranks, because they were so much wanted in the higher grades, and when their fleets were tretll they had small employments for commanders and captains. Com paring the naval service with the other branches of the public service, he thought its averages were quite as good. If his hon. friend was going to hold out to the navy that its officers were likely to get a large increase of pay, he was the worst friend they had. He (Lord C. Paget) frankly told the navy that he wished them to have good pay, but if they expected that their pay would be increased according to the scale of his gallant friend their hopes would be blasted. He admitted that in some ranks the French naval officers had higher pay than ours. Let him compare the case of the navy with the artillery. Take two youths, one of them entering the navy, the other the artillery. The one who entered the navy would be educated principally at the public expense, whereas the one in the artillery would have to go through an expensive education at the military academy. The question was what age a man was when he was promoted. In the navy a young man was made a lieutenant at 22, and in the artillery he was made a first lieutenant at 23. A lieutenant in the navy cost £197 full pay, and allowing £l5 for provisions, £lB2 net, while a first lieutenant in the artillery only received £125, includ ing all his allowances. He had been in communication with the French naval attache at this court, who had communi cated to him several facts bearing upon this subject. A first lieutenant in the French navy received £144 a year when abroad, £l2B in France, and £llO in the dockyards. He denied then that it could be said that our officers were worse off than the French. At the same time he admitted that some classes of the French officers were better paid than ours, but again the admirals were not so well paid. As soon as a lieutenant in the French service obtained a command, which was at a later age than in our service, he might get £4OB, which was better than a lieutenant in our service, who got only £234. A lieutenant in the French navy was generally 36, 37, or 39 when he obtained a com mand, while the general age in our navy was 32. The English admirals were better paid than the French admirals. Sir J. HAY said that in the French navy all the enter tainments were paid for. Lord C. PAGET did not know what might be the cha racter of the entertainments in the French navy, but the admirals had to find their furniture, plate, and linen at their own cost, but in our navy all these things might be found on a payment of 5 per cent., and an officer need only take his portmanteau on board. Sir J. HAY observed that he must take provision on board. Lord C. PAGET.—No such thing. He begged his hon. and gallant friend not to try to prove too much, There were cases in which our officers were not so well paid as in the French navy, but if these figures were quoted, they must follow the figures through. (Hear, hear.) He did not wish to complete the comparison, for he could not help feeling the odiousness of such comparisons. He alluded to these points not because he did not hope to see the navy improved, but because ho would not be a party to coming to that house and saying that the navy were miserably ill paid. What had the Government done for the navy ? They had improved the pay and the position of whole classes in the navy by the sum of £120,000 a year, and if it were desired he would enter into particulars—he held a paper in his hand containing the details, and he hoped that some honourable member would move for its production. All classes had been benefited in a small degree. This was in _addition to the scheme of retirement of 1860. If honourable members referred to page 23 of the Dake of Somerset's memorandum they would see that the charges for the retired and reserved lists in 1860 was £386,000 ; but in 1861 it was £120,000. That was due to the order in council giving power of retirement. The house had granted, in three years and a half, at the instigation of the Admiralty, £150,000 a year dead weight to the coun try. Was it fair for his honourable and gallant friend to charge Jim and the Admiralty with neglecting the interests of the navy, and to instigate the officers to discontent by issuing elongated shells, which pierced the sides of the Warrior and all our ships. (Laughter.) If his honourable and gallant friend had come forward and made known any grievances under which the navy suf fered, he or any other officer would have been well re ceived at the Admiralty. The hon. member for Devon port (Mr. Ferrand) said that officers could not go to the Admiralty. (Hear, hear.) Why the authorities at the Ad miralty would be delighted to see and to serve them. The retired officers laboured under the idea that when they ac cepted that position they were entitled to an increase of pay. The right hon. gentleman the member for Portsmouth (Sir F. Baring) was at the head of the Admiralty when the alte ration was made, and he was not a man to countenance any thing involving bad faith. He was surprised to hear any hon. gentleman say that the noble lord at the head of the Government was trying to shelve this question by the course he had ptirsued, and he hoped that idea would not be shared in by the house. The navy, at any rate, would not believe it, but would rest sure that after what the noble lord said there would be an inquiry into the alleged disadvan tages under which the navy laboured, which would be con ducted with fairness and justice. (Hear, hear.) Sir J. PAKINGTON said that the speech they had just heard had been directed rather to details, on which the house was not asked to pronounce an opinion, than to the broad principles submitted in the motion. He must con gratulate the hon. member for Wakefield on having at last elicited from a reluctant Government a distinct admission that he was practically justified in the course he had taken. His hon. and gallant friend was not open to the censure passed upon him by the Prime Minister, but the course he had taken reflected honour and credit upon him ; and as an officer of the Royal navy he could not have taken a more honourable, dignified, and natural course than to speak in person on behalf of his brother officers, and to ask for tho redress of the grievances of which they had long com plained. Nor was the honourable member open to the objection taken to his motion on the ground of its al leged vagueness. If he had encumbered his motion with those details which had been referred to, nobody would have been more ready than the noble viscount to say that such details were only to be dealt with by the executive. lie was desirous to call attention to the history of the question, which dated from the time that he was called upon to administer the Admiralty, when he found the service in a most unsatisfactory condi tion. During his short tenure of office he recommended the appointment of a Royal Commission to consider how they might improve the manning of the navy ; and it would be admitted, en all hands, that the results of the inquiry had been most satisfactory. Finding the state of the service in regard to promotion and retirement most un satisfactory, he prepared a plan of promotion which was adopted by the Cabinet, and which, if he had stayed in office a few months longer, would have been carried into effect, It was founded on the broad principle of the motion, that of retirement by ago applicable to all ranks of the ser vice. He left a memorandum with the present First Lord of the Admiralty, imploring him not to regard it in any rash light, but to look at it as an endeavour to improve the service ; but the noble duke did not see fit to carry out that plan or any plan founded on the same principle, In the following year, 1860, as the government was unwilling to act as an executive, he moved for the appointment of a Royal Commission on promotion and retirement ; but on a division the motion was rejected. In 1861 the hon. mem ber for Portsmouth moved for a committee, and the Prime Minister resisted the motion—(hear, and cheers)—divided against it, and was beaten—(hear)—but now he approved of a committee. (Hear.) The course of the government had been inconsistent and injudicious; and he must say that the position of the government was more extraordinary than the position of any government since he had been a member of that house. (Hear, hear.) They seemed to be afraid of bringing forward any measure—(hear, hear) — they seemed to be afraid of grappling with any difficult sub ject. The administration of the criminal law had fallen into a state so feeble and unsatisfactory that the whole country cried out against it; and the executive, instead of improving that administration, said, " Let us have a com mission." Now that they found the naval service was not disposed to be trifled with any longer, and that the service was supported by a strong feeling in the house, they changed their tactics, and said, " Let us have a committee." A select committee was the worse means of dealing with the question, which ought to be taken up by the executive, or, in default, by a Royal commission. He supported the mo tion for a committee two years ago, because the Govern ment had refused a commission, and had refused everything else, saying that there was no necessity for either inquiry or improvement. On this occasion, the day after the hon. member for Wakefield gave notice of his motion, there was laid on the table a memorandum of the Duke of Somerset, which admitted that there were undoubtedly many ques tions connected with the pay and position of naval officers deserving further consideration. This was the first time the admission had been m ade by the present Admiralty ; but this memorandum and the speech of the noble lord were inconsistent, for two years ho raised th e p oint that it was unconstitutional to refer the question of the pay of the navy to a committee of the house. k Hear.) He wished to guard himself against being suppose d to agree with the hon. mem ber for Wakefield in all the details of his plan, but he en tirely subscribed to the principlt of retirement by age, and to the opinion that the pay of ttio required readjust ing. The expressions w hi c h th e lam,member for Honiton had quoted as having been used by 1.4412 in the debate of 1860 were taken from the report of the well -known commis • sion of 1840, which was presided over by the ... M ike of Wel lington, which recommended an increase in t,. 110 sea pay allowed to navy lieutenants, and which iThelared, as Go vernment would do well to remember, " If yoLi W41,, t the naval service to be efficient, you must render it contented, Refusals of command had been made to himself when its office; and he remembered a remarkable case, in which az. able and distinguished officer, after 24 hours' consideration , of the offer of a command, said "I am much obliged. I cannot afford to take it." Another officer of great distinc tion once wrote to him that he could not afford to take an active command without doing injustice to his family, and he added that he knew many others who were similarly situated. He would ask the Admiralty if it were true or not, as he had heard, that the gallant admiral who was appointed to succeed Sir Jas. Hope in China was likely :to resign the command on pecuniary grounds, and, further, that the pre sant Board of Admiralty had already applied to some four or five flag officers . to succeed that officer, and that they had been unable to get one to succeed him. Was it true that some of the officers in command of the finest ships in the Mediterranean had applied to come home and resign their commands as soon as they had ;served their time ? Those were facts or not, and he was sure that there was no man in the house to whom it was le -8 necessary to point out than the noble lord at the head of the Government that such facts were not to the honour of her Majesty's service. The noble lord might tell them of the honour of serving the Crown, and he might tell them of the honour of receiv ing the thanks of that house, but he would put it to the ble lord whether it was the honour of the service or the efficiency of the service in any portion of it to see the best, and bravest, and most experienced men unable to afford to accept commands. (Hear.) He would entreat the house and the Government gravely to consider these facts, and gravely to consider the point at which they had arrived. No doubt the present Board of Admiralty were sincere in their belief that no great or serious change was necessary,—but the noble lord had entirely changed his course, for he was now ready to grant the committee which two years ago he refused. The Duke of Somerset had entirely changed his course, for he had been for four years insisting that no change was necessary, and he now came forward with a frank admission that with regard to pay and promotion a change was necessary. Perhaps, after what had fallen from him (Sir J. Pakington) it was hardly necessary for his hon. and gallant friend to press his motion, but if he did so, he (Sir J. Pakington) would feel it his duty to vote with him. But he would suggest to his hon. and gallant friend, as the question had so materially changed, whether his hon. and gallant friend would not best discharge the duty he had so properly undertaken and so well performed, by not pressing the motion to a division, and he would suggest to the noble lord in that case whether he would not be disposed to recon sider the proposal for a committee, and he would submit to the noble lord whether it would not be better, after the ad• mission of the Government, that they should themselves undertake this question. That would be the more constitu tional course, and be the most conducive to the interest and welfare and the improved efficiency of her Majesty's navy. Sir C. WOOD could not concur in many of the statements put forth by the right hon. gentleman, and it struck him as not a little remarkable that the right hon, gentleman should find fault with a committee, when he himself had appointed a royal commission. When he had been First Lord of the Admiralty all interference with the dockyards were surrendered completely to the superintendent, and the Admiralty had nothing to do with the promotion or employ ment of the people in the dockyards from that time forth. No better proof could be given of the independence of the men than the fact that at the last election in Devonport the lord of the Admiralty who was a candidate was defeated by a large majority, a great number of the men in the dock yards voting against him. (Hear, hear.) Sir J. HAY replied—After the appeal which had been made to him, and considering the admission made on the part of the Government, he would not press his motion to a division. But now that the noble agreed to a committee, he trusted it would be one in which the house and the ser vice would have confidence. (Hear, hear.) The motion was then withdrawn, and the amendment of Viscount Palmerston agreed to. SECURITY FROM VIOLENCE. Mr. ADDERLEY moved for leave to bring in a bill for providing for the future security of the persons of her Ma' jesty's subjects from violence. The right hon. gentleman stated that the principal object of the bill was to have offences of this kind visited with corporal punishment. Sir G. GREY assented to the introduction of the bill, but did not pledge himself to support its principle. It had been decided that flogging should be abolished except in two or three instances, and it was for the house to well con' Sider the subject before it retraced its steps. If it was to be left to the judges, past experience showed them it would not be enforced, and he thought there would be a repug nance on the part of juries to convict where corporal punish ment was to be inflicted. The right hon. gentleman bad not very accurately defined to what offences the punishment was to be applied ; indeed it would be very difficult to dray the line of distinction. If it was the most effectual punish' ment, let it be applied to all cases under certain restriotiono , No doubt in the army and in gaols it was the most prompt and effectual punishment under certain circumstances. Leave was then given to bring in the bill. REMUNERATION TO JURORS. Mr. AYRTON obtained leave to introduce a bill for the remuneration of jurors in certain cases. WRITS PROHIBITION. Mr. E. P. BOUVERIE obtained leave to introduce a bill to prohibit the issue of writs for actions of debt in the superior courts for stuns of less than £2O. _ BILLS OF EXCHANGE AND NOTICES (METRO' POLIS) BILL. Sir G. GREY obtained leave to bring in a bill to Mak e provision concerning bills of exchange and promissorY notes payable in the Metropolis on the 7th day of March next, the day on which the Princess Alexandra will arrive in this country. REGISTER OF VOTERS BILL. On the motiyn of Mr. LOCKE KING, this bil ;W' read a second time. PRINCE AND PRINCESS OF WALES' ANNUL' TIES BILL. On the motion for going into committee on this bill, Mr. NEWDEGATE asked the noble lord to state, fo r the satisfaction of the country, if the Princess Alexandr a was a Protestant. Lord PALME LISTON said : I am glad to be able te, answer the question of the hon. gentleman in a manner th at will be satisfactory to him and the house. When the quer tion arose as to the selection of a future Princess of Wale , the following conditions were considered requisite :—First, that she should be young ; next, that she should be han d : some; and ftirther that she should be agreeable—(laught er) —amiable in her disposition, well brought up ; and lastly, that she should be a Protestant. (Cheers.) And all these conditions, I am happy to say, are united in the Princess Alexandra. (Cheers,) I hope the choice will be as satin' factory to the na ti on as 1 am sure it w ill b e con d u cive L" the happiness of the Prince of Wales. (Cheers.) The bill then passed through committee. SUPPLY. The report of supply was brought up and agreed to. The house adjourned at half-past ten o'clock till Thur s ' day. TWELVE HUNDRED MILES OF HOGS.—The cago 7ribtine says the total number of hogs received that city since Oct. I—the commencement of the pack is ! season—amounts to 1,056,110. These, stretched out ilia' like, would reach a trifle over 1,200 miles. [ADVERTISEMENT.] Twofold Extraordinary Car a effected by Holloway's Pills and Ointment.—Mr. J. We bb ' bout and shoemaker, Chapel-street, Cahircerin, Irelart(id writes under date Jan. 10, 1863, that he had been afflic te d for 17 years with a most dreadful asthmatic cough a' ll shortness of breath, and latterly was also subject to ,_ numbed sensations in his limbs attended with heavy drovifi feelings, which threatened an apoplectic fit. In alarm .11: consulted the most skilful of the profession within raa% miles of his residence, without avail, and fruitlessly lis h e e every means recommended by friends, till he heard o f tb, repute of llolloway's remedies, and resolved, with dea staring him in the face, to give them a trial. These imp diately relieved and ultimately cured him. Births. a e of COCKLE.—On the 20th inst., at 13, Maid a -bill, the Wo f the Hon. Chief Justice Cockl e , o f Q u eensland/ ° daughter. :„, of MAXWELL.—On the 22d inst., at Edinburgh, the wifef a Lieut.-Colonel C. F. Maxwell, late of 82d Regt., son. SARTORIB.—On the 22d inst., at 64, Rutland-gate, 1-194e' park, the Hon. Mrs. Alfred Sartoris, of a son. Marriages. ARNOLD—Bum.--On the 21st inst., at Christ Chur t Clifton, Walter Arnold, Esq., t o Marianne, the old s daughter of the late Henry Bush, Esq., of LitfieldHo me ' Clifton, Bristol. HART—BOWIE.—On the 21st inst., at St. Mary's, LI beth, Samuel Henry Hart, Esq., of Hampton John Stockwell, to Mary Elizabeth, second daughter of Bowie, Esq., of Fleet-street. Deaths. COLLINS.—On the 23d inst., at S. Thomas's-road, linisc9g, TFanorN.:ios ?I the Collins, 22 dEsq., inst., aged at Maitland M ak g il Cri g ht on , Esq. fi t Thom as kia t FILMEn.—On the 21 st inst., Edmund Beversham, ] °„" -- •, 1 % so n of Sir Edmund and the Hon. L a dy Fil m er, age` — months. 1. H A RVEY.—On the 24th i ns t., a t hi s o ffi c i a l res id en ce, e n t Whittle Harvey, Esq., Commiesioner of the City of don Police Force, and formerly M.P. f or Colchester end w s oN Southwark.—tn the 21st inst., at New Brighton , W illi° R 0 Rowson, Esq. VERNON.—On th e 224 inst, at York-chambers, 53i11t James's-str ee t , C apta i n B. H. Vernon, aged 6 8 . or] WILKINSON.—On the 22d i ns t., Mr. Henry Wi lke 2, Earl's-terrace, Kensington, late of 70, Aldermallm aged 77. —oe - --- ~,,,i.crP, London : Printed and Published by WILLIAM Alip lb- No' of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at THE SUN Ofil ec „„'„0 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the 1-dv of Middlesex.—Wednesday, February 25, 1803. .7" /.