The Sun. — London, England, 1854-07-12 00:00:00

the number that should have been given. With regard to the Dissenters he shrank from expressing any opi nion. He would only observe that the right reverend prelates had made out a strong case on the subject, and he had no doubt the dissenters would take the oppor tunity of telling their story, and the public could then judge between the two. With regard to the Roman Catholics, whose attendance seemed so disproportionate to the number of sittings, that circumstance might per haps be accounted for by tlai fact that they had a number of short morning services, the attendance at which would not appear in the returns. Whilst on this subject he might observe in reply to a noble lord who stated a few nights ago that no one ever looked at the church school returns, that 21,000 copies of the abstract of these re turns had been sold. The same noble lord also com plained that whilst the expense of the census of 1841 was but 30,0001., the cost of the last census was 171,0001. This was a natural mistake for the noble lord to have fallen into, because he was net perhaps aware that the expense of the census of 1841 was defrayed out of the poor rate. The real fact was, that whilst the cost of the census of 1841 was 51. 9s. per thousand of the popula tion, the cost of the last census was but 51. 45., being a saving of 55., whilst everybody admitted that the infor mation was more ample. The estimated cost was 150,000/., but 127,000/. was only spent, and 9,0001. was returned to the treasury. He thought it right to state this, as an unfounded prejudice had been created on the subject. He wished also to state, not on information derived from the Registrar-General, but from the supe rior department, that great powers of administration had been displayed by that officer. (Hear.) After a few words from the Bishop of ST. DAVID'S and the Bishop of OXFORD, who withdrew his motion, The house adjourned at a quarter to ten. HOUSE OF COMMONS-{YESTERDAY.) PETITIONS. Petitions were presented by several hon. members in favour of the Ten Hours' Bill ; by Sergeant SHEE, from certain poor-law guardians in Ireland, complaining of the conduct of a Poor-law Inspector, in tampering with the religions convictions of the inmates of the Irish Workhouses ; and by Mr. COWAN, from Edinburgh, against the Mortmain Bill ; by Mr. WICKHAM, from the members of the Bradford Long-pledged Teetotal Asso ciation, in favour of closing public-houses on Sundays ; by the same hon. member, from the inhabitants of Brad ford district, Yorkshire, signed by 5,000 persons pray ing for a committee of inquiry into the deplorable state of the woolcombers in that district, consequent on the introduction of machin-zy, which has destroyed their trade ; by Mr. ROLT, two petitions from the work people, consisting of men, women, and children in two bleaching eStablishments-in the county of Lancaster, complaining of working 18 hours a day in heated rooms of 90 degrees, and that their Sabbaths are frequently violated, and pray that the " Ten Hours' Bill" be passed into a law. LANDLORD AND TENANT (IRELAND) BILL. The house then went into committee on this bill. On clause one, Mr. Sergeant SHEE m oved that the Chairman do report progress, as at this late period of the session it wag impossible to do justice to the measure. Fortu nately, Ireland was now in such a state of prosperity as to enable her to wait yet a, little longer for any use fill legislation of this nature. Mr. KIRK supported the proposition that the bill should proceed no further this session. Lord NAAS said it would be very much for the convenience of the committee if the government would state now what course they intended to take with re gard to this and the other landlord and tenant bill. Mr. J. O'CONNELL thought that some legislation on the subject was necessary in order to check the emi gration that was going on from Ireland, but the bills before the house were a delusion to which he hoped the Government would not commit themselves. Mr. CONNOLLY vindicated the sincerity of the Earl of Derby's government in endeavouring to settle this great question upon a basis of mutual advantage to all classes, and explained that the present government had neither acted fairly nor honestly in the matter. Mr. J. FITZGERALD said it was not the house nor the Government who were responsible for the delay, but it was another place that had thrown impediments in the way of a fair settlement of this question. How ever, it was too late to proceed with these bills this ses sion, and he hoped they would be withdrawn, with a view to their introduction early next session in an amended form, under the immediate auspices of the Government. Mr. BELLEW considered that these measures were Government bills by adoption. Sir J. YOUNG disputed that, but if they had been Government bills, they would not have been submitted to the house at this late period of the session. Nothing could be fairer than the course taken by the Government with respect to them ; they were anxious that the question should be settled as speedily as possible, and to the satisfaction of all parties ; but he was afraid that could not be done this year. He did not think it would be right to press these measures upon the attention of the house now, and he suggested that they should be withdrawn. Mr. NAPIER said he bad all along been led to ex pect that Government would support these bills to the last, and he now learnt for the first time that it was not their intention to go on with them. The right hon. gentleman was still speaking, when, four o'clock having arrived, Mr. Bouverie quitted the chair, and the sittings of the house were suspended. 'The sitting was resumed at 6 o'clock. The further proceeding in committee on the Landlord and Tenant (Ireland) Bill was fixed for to•morrow (this day). THE NATIONAL EXHIBITION. Sir J. WALAISLEY postponed until that day fortnights Mr. Hume's motion in favour of thowing open the British Museum, Marlborough House, and the National Gallery, to the public on Sundays after morning and evening service, the hon. member for Montrose being still unable to attend in his place. ALIEN ENEMIES. Mr. I. BUTT had given notice of his intention to put a question of some importance to the noble lord the Secre tary of State for the Home Department, and although that noble lord was not in his place, yet, seeing another Secre tary of State present, he hoped he should be unable to ob tain an answer from him. The question had reference to the reported arrival in London of a Russian subject of some importance, a member of a distinguished Russian family, high in the confidence of the Emperor of Russia, the Count Palalen, who had been himself ac tiv e ly engaged in the Russian diplomatic service, and whose brother was understood to be regarded by the Emperor as an intimate friend, and who occupied a distinguished place in his Ma jesty's councils. It had been further stated that this noble man had been introduced to society here under the special patronage and auspices of one of her Majesty's present cabinet ministers, and that an opportunity might be afforded for contradicting the statement if it were untrue, he thought it better at once to say that he alluded to the Earl Granville, the Chanoellor of the Duchy of L ancas t er . (Hear.) He need scarcely say, for he was sure every mem ber of that house was aware of it, that the presence even in this country of an alien enemy was a violation of the law, and the question he wished to have answered by the right hon. baronet (Sir G. Grey) was whether this Count Pahlen had received from her Majesty that which alone could entitle him to be here—a safe conduct—and if not whether the Government was aware of his presence in Lon don, and if so, whether his presence here was with their permission and sanction. (Hear, hear.) Sir G. GREY—AII I can say, in the absence of my noble friend, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, is that I have no information on the subject to which the bon. and learned member's question refers, and I must therefore request him to repeat it,' when my noble friend is in his place. THE BISHOP OF NEW ZEALAND'S SALARY. Sir J. PASINGTON begged to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies, whether any official communication was sent from the Colonial-office in 1853 to either the governor or the bishop of New Zealand, on the subject of the removal froth the estimates for that year of the usual vote for the bishop's salary. And, whether any official communication, that the usual allowance had been with drawn had yet been sent to the Bishop of N9w Zealand ; and, if so, whether there was any objection to lay it upon the table of the house, together with any answer which might have b een received from the bi s h op ? Sir G. GREY.did not find any direct official communi cation had been made to the governor or the bishop on the rabject of the salary, but in the early part of the year 1853, a copy of the estimate of 5,0901. for the service of the co lony, with a full detail of the expenditure, had been for warded to the governor ; the bishop however, left the co lony immediately after it arrived. With regard to the second question, a special communication was addressed to the bishop, announcing the withdrawal from the esti mates of the sum previously voted therein f oe which communication the Governor n of . New Zealand had been directed to make. He had his salary, was_ to produce the letter in which that decision w o rated, and he might add that he had on that day - win i ni v the table, to it which he should be also happy to la the answer together with a copy of the despatch to & on e,- New Zealand, requesting him to bring the subr emYr o er i the attention of the Colonial Legislature with th eet their making provision for the payment out of tehlielwocaol funds. THE CANADIAN CLERGY RESERVES,p t Sir J. PAKINGTON rep ea t e d a question he h a d a previous evening whether any d es p a t c h h a d been - receiveduou from the Governor-General of Canada respecting the dis solution of the Canadian Parliament, in consequenc e o f their having come to a vote upon th e su bj ec t o f the cl e rgy g f reserves, contrary to the recommendati o n o f the Governo r -- and the wishes of. the Imperial Government. Sir G. GREY had received yesterday a despatch from Lord Elgin, describing the circumstances under which the Canadian Parliament had been dissolved. It appeared that the Governor-General opened the session on the 13th of June by a speech—that an address was moved in answer t o th a t speech, upon which two successive, amendments were moved. The first, which expressed regret that the Governor had not recommended during the present session a measure for secularising the clergy reserve; and also a measure for abolishing seignorial tenures, was rejected by a majority of 24 against 16; but the second amendment, in favour of an immediate settlement of the clergy reserves, instead of secularising them, was carried by 42 to 29. The right hon. gentleman was aware that an act was passed by the Canadian Legislature some time ago, by which the lMive Assembly was to be increased from 84 to 130 in number; and the Governor thinking it would not be t to submit a measure to the present Assembly, de fined to postpone it until an Assembly, elected un der the new act for increasing their numbers, should have met ; and it was under these circumstances that he had Prorogued the Parliament, with a view to its dissolution. THE ESTIMATES FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF SECRETARY.WAR Mr. J. WILSON having laid these estimates upon the table, Mr. DISRAELI inquired whether it was intended to move them on Friday b a d o n a previous evening intimated ? next, as the noble lord (J. Russell) Sir G. GREY believed that arrangement would stand. TENURE OF LAND (XA.DRAS). Mr. BLACKETT rose, Pureue nt to notice, to move an address for the appointment of a commission to proceed to India to inquire into th e t enure Of land in the presidency of Madras. The bon. member Observed that the-origin of the land tax in India had been made the subject of much dispute. It had been disputed whether the land tax was a tax in the ordinary sense of the term, or whether it was the legitimate rent of the land which in other communi ties was paid to the private landowner, and those who took the latter view contended that it made no difference to the tenant whether he paid a rent to a landlord, or a tax to the Government for his land. This was by no means an unimportant question, and it had been well argued by the hon. member for Manchester in 1850, when he brought forward a motion somewhat similar to that which he was now submitting, and demonstrated the difference between a land rent fixed arbitrarily by the Government, as in India, and a rent which depended upon value, and was founded upon a fair and equitable consideration of the relative pee sitions of landlord and tenant as in this country. But whatever the origin of the tax, and whether it was re garded as a tax or as a rent, the object should be to levy it in that mode which would be least injurious to the cul tivator of the land, most productive to the revenue and at the same time most calculated to stimulate private industry. The hon. gentleman proceeded to :say that in the evidence he should produce, he should only cite the authority of Mr. Dyke, the collector of Salem, Mr. Thomas, a member of the council at Madras, and Mr. Bourdillon. He ad mitted that the East India Company in stepping into the shoes of the native princes, had bound themselves to many duties which they would never otherwise have discharged, but they were nevertheless bound to consider that, how ever, they were under some disagreeable necess.ties —they were to look forward to a period when the Asiatic system ought to disappear. He admitted that this policy was laid down by the founder of our Indian empire, but you were unable to detect any traces of it in the ryotwar sys tem as it was at present administered. That system in volved the perpetual meddling of the State with the affairs of its subjects. The State acted as landlord over the whole of its territory, and placed a money-tax on every field in its dominions, over an area in Madras of 7,000 square miles, and in other collectorships as those of Cuddepore and Bakery of 13,000 square miles ; each of which was under the superintendence of one collector, with a number of assistants, who had to make tours over the district, and ascertain the quan tity of land possessed by each cultivator, and the amount of its produce. He believed this system of taxa tion tended to break down the cultivation of the land, the property of which was practically in the hands of the Go vernment. It was true that the owner of the land held it in fee, but the tax on it was so severe as to leave him in the hands of the Government, which, inexisting circumstances, meant in the hands of a host of native functionaries ; and the land possessed no market value. This was the state of things under the ryotwar as it was now administered, but not as it was contemplated to exist by Col. Reid, Sir Thomas Munro, and Lord William Bentinck. They in tended to give to the tenant fixity of tenure, and it was Sir Thomas Munro's prime idea to make the land tax ap proximate as nearly as possible to a quit rent, and it was intended to be permanent in amount. This also appeared by a proclamation of Col. Reid to have been his intention. The question of its being a permanent, involved the ques tion of its being a moderate rate. As regarded Madras, it had been admitted last year by the President of the Board. of Control that the land tax was too high, and that a re vision of the assessment was desirable. The principle on which the assessment was made caused it to press pecu liarly on the cultivators of the soil. The assessment was originally fixed by a survey made fifty years ago, which was made under great disadvantages, and much of it with out the aid of maps. Upon that survey the gross produce of the soil was taken, and a survey rate computed at the then market price, and the amount of the tax fixed by that standard. The market price was then high, but since then prices had been steadily falling, and yet the Ryots paid the tax now on a Beale calculated on the prices of sixty years ago. The hon. gentleman here read a document to show the view which Sir Thomas Munro took of this point, and which was to the effect that he did not think that prices would fall lower than they were in his day. So far from that, it appeared by an extract from a minute made by Mr. Thomas, member of council at Madras, that prices had gradually ranged lower. There was a phenomenon which illustrated the effect of this exorbitant assessment, and that was that the beat land bore the highest assessment, and it was so high as to drive the cultivator to prefer to cultivate poor land, which was rated at a lower assessment, rather than go to that which was so enormously taxed ; and it appeared from a portion of Mr. Dyke's evidence, that in his collectorate large patches of the best land were left uncultivated, while evidence of the same state of things was to be found in Mr. Bourdillon's pamphlet on the land revenue. Here was an instance of the consequence of de parting from Sir T. Munro's policy, for the land tax which he meant to be permanent had become fluctuating. There had been an abandonment of another principle of Sir Thomas Munro, which was that there should be something like what was called tenant right. Sir Thomas Munro was resolved that the land tax should not be increased or im posed in consequence of improvements made by the tenant himself, and that no additional rent should be asked in consequence of improvements (the hon. gentleman here read an extract from Sir Thomas Munro's opinions on that point). That policy had been clearly departed from. Mr. Dyke stated that additions had been recently made to tax ation by taxing improvements, and Sir Charles Trevelyan spoke of the objectionable system of taxation on improve. ments, which he hold to be worse than the system of tithes. Mr. Peacock was called to contradict the evidence of Sir Charles Trevelyan, and he said that the ryots were allowed the benefit of their improvements under an order of 1852, which was explanatory of orders which had been issued years before. But he did not in fact contradict Sir C. Trevelyan, for he admitted that there were such orders, but they had not been duly executed. What he (Mr. Blackett) complained of -was that the East India Company adopted and perpetuated a system of taxa tion which had all the disadvantages to which the Govern ment washable in the management of the revenue. Immense power had been placed in the hands of a swarm of govern ment functionaries of a elan the least to be desired. He had mentioned the immense space of land which was under the control of one' collector, and which required to be lookedafter by his assistants. It was awful to contemplate the effect of this system on the families of the persons under their control, and the state of dependence in which this broken down race of people were placed under the rule of revenue officials of native Indian race. However he might advocate the employment of natives by the government, yet he thought it objectionable that this particular class should be employed in a position where they had every temptation to ingratiate themselves with their English masters at the expense of the other natives. It was felt by Sir T. Munro, that there was a great want of proper agency to carry out the ryotwar system; and one of the main difficulties was to prevent the revenue officials from collecting the tax by means at which humanity shuddered. The hon. gentleman hare read an extract from Mr. Bour dillon's pamphlet, which showed that the number of officials under a collector ranged from 1,500, and that every sort of peculation and oppression was exercised by them. Again, he (Mr. Blackett) gave credit to the East India Company for regretting the difficulties they had to en counter in carrying out this system. There must be a minute inspection, and you could not get English servants to perform the duty, while it was not possible to pay such salaries to the natives as to prevent peculation. But all this showed that there was reason for inquiry into the abuses of a system which required such means to carry it out. He had pointed out the three main defects of the system of ryotwar—viz., the enormous assessment, the taxing of agricultural improvements, and the immense power placed in the hands of native test-gatherers. He would now go into the question of the state of the revenue, of the land and population. The revenue had been declining or at least was stationary. By the latest returns for the year 1852-53, the revenue was 3,687,8111. In 1848 49 it was 3,64708/. ; and in 1849-50 it was 3,479,4391. With re gard to the land it appeared by an appendix to the report of the committee which sat last year, and which gave an account of the rental for the eleven years ending 1851-52, that a rental of 115,4851. when put up for sale fetched o m n r. ly Dyke's l67,lBo evidence /; iavneryee he small ratio of a year's purchase. In produced a letter written by Sir T r y h o o t m w a a s r M w u a n s ro t , 0 which odu N e v e e nto at class a ss show of that very the sm a tendencyll farmers.of The speed with which small properties multiplied was frightful. Mr. Thomas had stated that the mass of the landholders were holders of tenements of the annual value of 30 or 40 rupees, and of course had no capital, and those holders had within 20 years increased in one district from 971 to 3,607, while th e h o ld ers o f t enements of the value' of from 50 to 500 rupees, hall decreased from 78 to 28. (Hear, hear) He would read an extract from Mr Bour dillon's pamphlet with regard to the native populati in of Madras. Having read the extract, the hon. member con tinued : Here was a picture of society, given by a 'most experienced person connected with the administration of the government which represented the people as livivg from hand to mouth, and pressed down to the very ground by death and starvation. Society here was wholly destitute of those supports which were wit nessed in other countries, and he confessed it seemed to him that it was their duty to ascertain if some remedy coul,l not be applied to this deplorable state of things. The President of the Board of Control met some of these objections last year, when he said the remedy for the evils complained of in Madras must be left to the local government, but for his part he confessed he had no confidence in the wishes or intentions of that Go vernment. Until the principle of private property was established in the Presidency he could have no hope for the prosperity of the people, and he insisted that the Bri tish Parliament was bound to do something towards the recognition of that principle. The occupier of land should have it in his power to redeem the objectionable tax that pressed so heavily upon him, and since ho was anxious to get in the small end of the wedge, he cared not how small the beginning might be, so that the house would consent to make it. Let them sow the seed at once, and he cared not whether it was half a century before it tuck rcot. With that view he only asked the Government to do for Madras that which they had already done with so much advantage for Ceylon, and by appointing a commission to inquire into the evils on the spot see if something could not be done to remove the lamentable state of society which he had tried, though feebly, to picture to the house. The hon. member concluded by moving an address to the Crown for the appointment of a commission to proceed to India to inquire into the tenure of land in the Presi dency of Madras. Mr. BRIGHT seconded the motion. lir. LOWE said his hon. and learned friend seemed to think that He had nothing to do but to make out a case against the prese t d f II tine the land revenues of Misdrasisit%enthitlenhimmotoe a o sk c t o he ec hou * se to as to . his mo much stronger than an tion. duce the house learned friend. to e confessed he differed from his hon. and dia was based thena. would require a case indeed he had made out in order to in ditztke the step of sending out a commission of India that there was theory of the government of In :: the u l i a r t to necessityn despotism,bi te uannwdi exceptto s h o w n I ein peoplecases could supersede this despotic an impression to get abroad VI authority in England that lower our inflnence there, aadclrnwer. If we allowed such to this appeal to the Englishlndia, it would tend to on that account he objected mind on the subject. No body in England attended thoroughly in to Indian matters m interested posed m un i l s e s s io s n he w w er a e s s n divested t d e d i f oaf com mission personally out of being so greatly an interest, they might run the r people as to make ssible intentions, deceived by the representation s of of detrimental them recommend measures with the r f i rs et t ohne Another objection he had which, when carried out, would prove Anot taoliktehitso n ln io d t i i a on an w d a t s fif t s h c a o t uu t tr e ye government 01 Madras been changed since last y ear; as h a d a new governor sent out in the person of a n o bl eman of distinguished and the Government had every reason to hope and expect that great advantages would result f rom thi s change int the administration. These were the reasons which appeared to him to require that his hon. and learned friend should show something more than he bad yet clone to justify the appointment of this commission ; a mere complaint, based upon the mode of collecting the revenue of Madras, wa s not sufficient ; and in order to make out a case for inquiry, his hon. and learned friend must show at least one of three things. He must either show that the Government of Madras would not recognise some particular grievance, or that, recognising it, they refused, or were not prepared to apply a remedy. In want of either of these two things his hon. and learned friend must show that the'Government of India was doggedly opposed to all reform or remedy of ' THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, JULY 12, 1854; grievances, that only a commission of inquiry could remove them. Now, he maintained that his hon. and learned friend had shown none of these three things, and having failed in that he could hardly require any further answer to his motion. But supposing the commission were ap pointed, what result did his hcn. and learned friend pro i - pose or suggest should spring from t ? It might perhaps end its labours by recommending that the ryotwar system should be abolished; but granting that it did that, of what use would that recommendation be unless they were prepared with some alternative or substitute for the aban doned system ? True it might be advisable to remove some of the evils that now attended the working of the soil, or to enable the cultivator to relieve himself in some way from payment of the land tax ; but in order to ascer tain that was it necessary to send out a commission ? Then if they abolished the ryotwar system, they were to substi tute the zemindar system for it, or a system of petty land lordism, which would inflict more , misery and suffering upon the people than they already suffered ? He certainly thought that it would be much better to let things remain as they were, than that a change should be made so disad vantageous to the interests of the people. Yet these were the only two alternatives open to them, if they con sented to part with the ryotwar system ; and therefore he contended that his hon. friend had made out no sufficient case either for the inquiry into the tenure of laud, or the mode of collecting the revenue in Madras. He was pre , pared to prove, if would admit, that we had no alter native but to continue the ryotwar system, though while he said that, he was equally ready to admit that the system was attended with a good many evils which ought to be remedied ; but the application of the remedy should be left to the local government, and not accomplished through the instrumentality of a commission, which might emllar rass the Government without doing any good, either to the country or the people of India. Mr. DA.IsTIY SEYMOUR told the house that the evils complained of in Madras had been acknowledged many years ago. Fourteen or fifteen years ago the East India Company distinctly admitted the existence of these evils in Madras, and promised that something should be imme diately done to remove them, but from 1840 down to 1854 nothing in the world had been done to fulfil that promise. (Hear, hear.) The hon. and learned gentleman who had just addressed them said the effect of this commission would be to weaken the power of the Government in India; but he did not at all agree with him on that point. He did not believe the people of India were the fools they were taken to be as to suppose that there was no other power over them than the local government ; they knew well that there was an influence in this country that controlled the local government, and the same feeling which actuated Hyder Ali a hundred years ago still animated the people of India. Ryder Ali, the house was aware, when solicited by some of his subjects to go to war with the English, re plied, "No I will not ; it is not the English, though here in India, that I fear, but it is the English at home, whom I can't see, and who possess great power, that frightens me." Now that was precisely the feeling which actuated the people of India at this moment ; they knew that there was a stronger power at home than the local government, and no commission of this sort could have the effect of weakening British influence in India. Well, then, why should they object to inquire in this way into a state of things that was a disgrace to any English Govern ment. The sufferings of society in Madras were worse than the disease known by the name of Plies Potonica, and it was high time the executive at home did something to alleviate them. The state of things that prevailed in this presidency was without an example in any other country in the world, and yet since Lord W. Bentinck, not a single Governor-General had visited it with the view of devising some remedy for the grievances of the people. The present Governor-General could find time to visit the newly acquired territory of Burmah, which was likely to cost far more than it would ever be worth, and his favourite retreat in the Punjaub ; but although the head of a federal Government, he could spare a moment to the wants of this unfortunate section of the Indian empire. It was the duty of the House of Commons, then, to ascertain how it was that the local government had so far neglected its duty as to allow this disgraceful state of things to continue in Madras, and for that purpose he hoped they would assent to his motion. He thought that knowing the past reputation of their own servants they ought to be chary of the natives. Take the history of the last ten years of India, and among the ex tremely well paid servants of the company were there no I black sheep? In the presidency of Madras it was not only the land tenure that was vicious, but the way in which they collected the revenue was most disgraceful. No one could say to whom the land belonged. One third, or more, of the land was lying waste, and the people ware obliged to emigrate. Some went to Ceylon, and as soon as they got out of the territories of the company they became prosperous. In Ceylon they were so industrious that they were driving the Cingalese out. Then he found that slavery existed in the south of India. He did not say that the selling of men, women, and children was recognised in the courts, but it went on nevertheless, and the people were so degraded that they did not seem to value free dom, and they were not aware of the existence of the courts. There was no registry of births, marriages, and deaths, and he believed there was not a farmer in England who did not care more for his cattle than the East India Company, cared for the people committed to their charge. The Government had framed rules as to the tenure of land, but they had a strange objection to making them public. No one could get a copy. He had got one certainly, but he got it surreptitiously. (Laughter.) One of these rules forbid a ryot from giving up bad land, unless he gave up a proportionate quantity of good land. Now, why should not a man be allowed to cultivate what land he pleased ? But the great aim of the Madras government was to get ten rupees annually out of a man who had only got eight. Torture, he believed, was resorted to to obtain the revenue, the same kind of torture that was described by the Jesuits at the beginning of the last century. Everything stated in Mr. Norton's book might be proved to the house if the East India Company would allow it. The servants of the company had resorted on them ad nauseam, and in reply they were told to mind their own business, and to get in the revenue. He knew an instance in winch a servant of the company began a despatch by saying that he wanted a re , luction of the revenue because the people were wretchedly poor, and that he was only repeating what every one of his predecessors had been saying for the last fifty years. India was a sealed book. The company would give them no documents, or so many that they did not know what to do with them, for they took care to give them no index. The presidency of Madras contained 700,000 inhabitants, and a man with 10,0001. was esteemed a rich man. There was a time when there were many Armenian bankers and merchants there, but they had all gone, and the whole commerce was now in the hands of one or. two English houses who were connected with the civil ser vice. A case had come to his knowledge, in which a now kind of oil was brought into the market. It sold well, but no one knew where it came from. A Calcutta house sent an agent into the Madras Presidency, and he discovered how the oil was obtained. The Calcutta house determined on entering into the trade, and the agent began to buy. The price of the oil was immediately doubled to the great advantage of the ryots. The agent went into the district to buy, and the ryots showed every disposition to sell, but the next morning none of them came to him, and on inquiry he found that the collector had given them a hint that they were to con fine their sales to the houses already established. The agent persevered for some time in his endeavours to establish a trade, but such were the difficulties thrown in his way that the Calcutta houso determined on withdrawing, and did so. There were many other cases in which the officials had interfered in this manner. In many of the southern districts of India, in South Arcot, for instance, a cotton district, the inhabitants said not one-fortieth' of the land was cultivated. They might go through 30 or 40 miles of a desert country. The people were naked, not from choice, for they needed cottons and flannels, but they could not get them, and they were so abject that when the official passed ?by they prostrated themselves in a manner that was distressing to behold. The engineers of the Madras Railway said the country was not cultivated, and they could scarcely go a mile in any direction without meeting with the remains of old irrigating tanks, which were now gone to ruins. He knew it might be said that a great deal of this had been remedied, and that the Government had sent orders for improvements ; hut why were those orders kept a secret? One of the great evils of India was that the law was not attended to. The officials knew that the one law that must be obeyed was that the revenue must be kept up. When he was at Coimbatore he saw new wells which had been dug by the side of the old ones. The Government had sent out orders that taxes on the old wells should be continued, but that there should be no tax on new ones. These wells were very deep, and to dig them great labour and expense had been incurred, but the people had gone to this labour and expense rather than pay the tax. He went on to the Neilgherry Hills, and at each side of the road the cultivation was beautiful to behold, but on inquiry he found that this only extended to 100 yards on each side of the road, the collector having been successful in an ap plication to reduce the rent to 103. an acre, but beyond that limit the rent was 20s. an acre, and as the people could not make a profit out of it at that rent it was uncul tivated and was a waste. The fact was the East India Company had no interest in the good government of the country. It produced a revenue of twenty-seven millions, and all they had to pay to the proprietors of the East India stock was some 700,000/. a year, being 10A per cent. upon their capital, and th e y k new that, however badly the country was governed, it would produce that: He did not see why, the company should be kept up. It they went onwards to the west coast they found an opulent and a prosperous people. They had people on the Malabar coast with whom it would not do to play tricks. They were not broken-hearted, like the people in the Carnatic, but were a bold and enterprising people. Why should they not take a track round Madras, and try the expe r iment o f g ivin g a. better tenure? Mr. Norton,f while showing him a house he had built, told him he had not the slightest idea what he should have to pay the Government forit ; and was it likely that British capitalists would ever make the Presidency , the scene of their investments so long as such a system re mained? Or, take another case. The Rev. Mr. Blenkin sop, one of the company's own chaplains, had established a youthful Blenkinsop as a planter on the hills, where he had taken 59 acres on a lease of 21 years. Mr. Blenkinsop, sen., in a letter to the authorities of the company, stat e d that he had had three translations made of his son's futtah or lease, which was in the Tamul language, and its purport appeared to be that at the expiration of the 21 years his son was to agree to whatever alterations the company might then chose to make. Mr. Blenkinsop wished, before sink ing his money on the land, to know what was the meaning of this stipulation ; because it was obvious that the only manner in which his son could deal with the plan tation, if he spent any money on it all, would be to leave off cultivating it at the sixteenth or seventeenth year, and so to exhaust both the trees and the soil. A long cor respondence appeared to have ensued, but the purport of the company's reply was that Mr. Blenkinsop was to be charged 2s. per acre for 21 years, in conformity with the terms of his lease, and that then the rent would be raised, though not to a higher amount than the government was charging for the land around it. But that was not a very satisfactory tenure ; for who would not much rather go into Ceylon, where ho could buy land for a pound an acre out and oat ? The consequence was, that Ceylon was be coming a flourishing colony, while Madras would remain in its present neglected and disgraceful state. (Hear, hear.) The company's servants would not make the inquiries which his hon. friend sought to institute. The complaint already was that they were overworked ; and the govern ment must, therefore, sand out a special commission to in vestigate the real state of the case. Madras, in the slang phrase of India, was said to be the "country of the be nighted ;" and they were told that amendment was hope less. But was that a state in which twenty-two million persons ought to be left? (Hear, hear.) This was a ques tion o f solemn import. It was no use taking a governor from the West Indies and sending him to the East. He only fell into the hands of interested persons, and, with the best intentions, would fail in arriving at the real facts state of thin A gs t d a e ll m ervent s , he would be years in of the c business,his "e.learning even if in the end he should have sagacity enough to devise a remedy for the evils around him. The should in stantly done ; and. he thou ht that the best men in the country, who had been g ended that something be connected with )Madras, shourtl at once be asked to return to India on a mission, which they would be glad to undertake, for it would be a mission of benevolence and improvement. . (Cheers.) Sir J. W. HOGG said the hon. gentleman had probably not been aware, in the zeal and earnestness with which he had pushed his case, that he had in reality been casting a serious imputation upon the Government of India. In deed, he had seldom listened to a speech in which au hon. gentleman had dealt so largely in assertions, of which he had adduced no proof, or indulged in stronger 9 language than that which the house had just heard. (" Oh, oh.") The hon. gentleman on his return from India, had in fact been turning everything out of his carpet bag, into which he seemed to have thrust everything that he had heard from every person on every possible subject. (A. laugh.) The hon. gentleman said that persons going to India were very apt to fall into the hands of interested and designing persons, and the hon. gentleman seemed himself to have been an illustration of the fact. (Laughter.) Why, as soon as he got to Madras, he had put himself in communi cation with the society from which had emanated a peti tion which was certainly the most extravagant and un founded document which had been laid upon the table of the house ; and which his right hon. friend (Sir C. Wood) had truly observed, was a tissue of the grossest misrepre sentations, perversions, and 'ills-statements. (Hear, hear.) Nay, more. The hon. gentleman had actually gone about the country attended by two deputies from the associa tion itself. Mr. BRIGHT—Hear, hear. Very proper. Sir J. W. HOGG would put it to the house, whether the information he would be likely to gain under such cir cumstances would not necessarily be of a very exaggerated character. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman went about and called, at every place where he stopped, parties before him. Mr. SE YMOITR—I never did so. Sir J.W. HOGG—WeII, they came without being called. The two emissaries of the association went with him, and by some process which he would not designate, persons were assembled before the hon. gentleman wherever he went. An impression was produced that he was a royal commis sioner, and the people were persuaded to coma and make their complaints before him in order that they might be laid before Parliament. (Hear, hear.) It was only fair to say that the hon. gentleman, when he became aware that this impression had been encouraged, had done all in his power to reprobate it. But an attempt was even made by the designing persons into whose hands he had fallen to levy contributions from the people among whom he went, on the ground that they were wanted to defray the ex penses of the supposed royal commission. (Oh.) The hon. baronet then proceeded to read from an Indian paper an extract from a document published by the two persons to whom he had referred, and who said, " This was the place where the officials of the company began to oppose us by calling Mr. Seymour a humbug, and saying it was of no use giving money. (Laughter.) Fortunately, however, this did not prevent the people from coming to Mr. Sey mour, or the subscription from proceeding." (Hear, hear.) He was sure the hon. gentleman, on reflection, would see that he had been led into indiscretion. Only fancy a mem ber of Parliament going into a district where, excepting the collector and the judge, the people had hardlyf seen a European face, exhibiting to them a picture on which were pourtrayed various species of torture, and asking them whether they had been subject to cruelties like that? (Hear, hear.) With respect to the abuses of which the hon. gentleman had complained, he would only attempt to answer those cases which came within his own personal knowledge. Take the lease of Mr. Blenkinsop. The fact was that the rent of the best description of land was fixed; and the rents of inferior descriptions varied in proportion to their quality. Now Mr. Blenkinsop's lease specified that he should pay a certain rent for twenty-one years, and that afterwards he should be charged according to the value of the land as compared with the best coffee plantations, the price of phich was fixed. Now if this were the strongest case the hon. gentleman was able to bring, the house would judge of the value of his other complaints. (Hear, hear.) As to the case of Mr. Norton, it was perfectly inexplicable to him, because with the excep tion of the three towns of Bombay, Calcutta, and Madras, there was no tax upon houses at all. [Mr. Seymour— There is.] As to the case of the oil merchants at Calcutta, why had he not made his complaint first to the board ? He did not like a man who did not go with a grievance to the right place. (Hear.) Then with respect to the returns which the hon. gentleman said the right hon. baronet (Sir C. Wood) had refused him, he thought the request was not a reasonable one ; for the returns in question consisted of the confidential reports of the collectors to the India Board. The bon. gentleman had talked of the Governor- General's "pet Punjaub," but he must say he was astonished to find that any hon. gentleman could sneer at the achievements of Lord Dalhousie. (Hear.) His hon. and learned friend who had introduced this motion had adverted to several cases of peculation, but most of these cases occurred many years ago, and it could not be said that there were any such cases occurring now. There was only one recent case, and in that case the party was tried, cashiered, and afterwards deprived of his pension, although he had paid towards it for months and m .nths before. And yet the hon. and learned gentleman said the East India Company had shown a disposition to screen such offenders ; so far, however, from having screened this offender, the Court of Queen's Bench had pronounced him to have been harshly dealt with by the company, and they had been compelled to make him good his pension. Hav ing said thus much by way of reply to some of the obser vations of preceding speakers, he came now to the motion before the house. In much that had been said by way of statement and suggestion by the hon. and learned gentle. man who had introduced it, he entirely concurred, and if the debate had rested only on his speech, it need not have lasted more than an hour. There were certain evils which they all admitted, and the only question was how they could be best remedied. The administration in India were anxious to see them remedied as speedily as possible, but there were difficulties in the way whi c h it was "not easy to get rid of. This question of the tenure of land had engaged the attention of the greatest and best informed men of India, but although there had been occa sionally a difference of opinion upon it, and although it was now held up to execration, the ryotwar system had yet been sanctioned by Sir T. Munro, Sir C. Metcalfe, and other equally eminent authorities upon Indian affairs. They, like many others, believed the Government was a better landlord than the Zemindars, because the Govern ment were less exacting, while they preferred the ryot war system far before that which prevailed in Bengal. A modern system had recently been introduced at Bombay, which was greatly in favour of the tenant; by that system the Government were bound to let the tenant remain undis- turbed for thirty years, but the tenant himself could put an end to the tenancy at any time he pleased. That was tenant-right with a vengeance ; but this question of im proving the ryotwar tenure was quite different from the tenure itself. There was no doubt that it could be im proved, and that very materially ; for instance, the ground was much too highly taxed. The hon. gentleman who made this motion had stated the reason of that, and ho had stated it correctly, because it appeared that grain had greatly fallen in the market rate, but that very considera tion showed the necessity for increased means of commu nication and public works. If they increased the produc tion of corn in a country where the people were not suffi ciently numerous to consume it all, they greatly wronged the cultivators of tho soil unless they gave them the means of conveying it elsewhere ; but he did hope and believe that the system which was now nearly com plete in the southern part of Bombay might ultimately be applied to Madras. The subject was now engaging the serious and permanent attention of the Government of India, and he might go the length of saying that in this respect Lord Dalhousie was acting as the commis sioner of England. That being so, he hoped they would hear no more about the British rule deteriorating the Indian race, which was nothing more than a senti mental idea applicable to the past perhaps, but certainly not to the present time, because at this moment the Go vernment of India were spreading the blessings of educa tion throughout their territory, and doing their best to regenerate the people, a work which could not be accom plished in 20 or 50 years, but might be completed in the course of a century. (Hear.) Mr BRIGHT concluded from the indignation expressed by the hon, baronet that the speech of his hon. friend the member for Poole had " told," and the hon. baronet had succeeded very poorly in answering him. (Hear, hear.) The speech of the hon. member for Poole was one of those, however, which it was quite impossible to answer unless they told the hon. member that they did not believe what he said, he having simply related what he had himself seen. (Hear, hear.) His hon. friend had been out to India for a purpose which did him infinite credit; and he could not help thinking that it would be greatly to the advantage of India if other hon. members would follow his example, and instead of spending the recess in Germany, Switzer land, and Scotland, go out to India, and make themselves masters of the real state of the country. (A laugh.) The information which the hon. member for Poole collected there was nothing more than what was confirmed by every work which had been written upon India, as well as by the statements of many gentlemen, both civil and military, who had been in the service of the East India Company. (Hear, hear.) The grievances of India had too long been uncarod for; and now that Englishmen were repairing there, to ascertain the real state of things, considerable jealousy was excited in the Government, who were anxious to keep matters still in the dark. (Hear, hear.) 'There was one conclusive evidence against their rule, and that was this, viz., that although they had been in possession of the country for upwards of a hundred years, there were not as many Englishmen settled in the interior of India as would make one side of the house on a fair division on any considerable party question. (Hear.) If it had been in the hands of any other country than this ; or if it had been under any other government than that of the India-house, such a state of things would not have arisen. (Hear.) Had it been under an absolute monarchy, like that of France, or a democracy, like the United States, in either case it would have b een more fl our i s hi ng . But a corporation had been truly said to be "deaf to mercy, and insensible to shame ;" and this was the case with the company repre sented by the hon. member for Honiton. That hon. gen .tlernan had not at all succeeded in showing that the in habitants of Madras were not in the miserable state de scribed by a former speaker. It was not necessary that the proposed commission should be sent from this country ; it might consist of persons in India; but he sincerely hoped that the President of the Board of Control would take the matter up. The miserable state of Madras was undeniable; every book, paper, and parliamentary report confirmed this. The land was largely out of cultivation, and the in habitants were half starved. The great revenue drawn from the land by the Government, and the miserable pittance of the ryot, swallowed up the whole annual produce. Not withstanding the large annual resumptions of land by the Government, which were most unjust, the land revenue had actually declined. How did the hon. baronet account for this fact? Did he pretend to deny that the practice of torture was frequent in the collection of the revenue? (beer.) Mr. Norton's book was an unquestionable autho rity ; he stated that if a ryot was unable to pay his rent every species of severity was practised ; he was summoned from home and subjected to the thumb-screw and other punishments ; his property was then sold, and he was turned loose on society to beg or steal. This was pre- cisely the same kind of evidence as had been collected by the lion. gentleman (Mr. Seymour) ; and all the sneers of t the hon. baronet would not invalidate it, or excuse the I barbarous treatment of his Government. (Hear, hear.) If , they took half the produce of the soil from the cultivators, i it was impossible for them to be other than on the brink of starvation and ruin. The case was proved not only by the statements made, but by the admission of the hon. baronet himself. When a former commission was ap pointed, the governor turned the cold shoulder to the COlll missioners, and even refused them the hospitalities of his table. He hoped that the President of the Board of Con- ; trol would take care that such treatment was not offered to I any future commission. Col. Cotton, one of the most effi cient servants of the company, had rendered good service to the country by promoting works of irrigation. The government should-remember that they owed India a duty far beyond anything that had been done for it by former ; governments. Their onlyVnxiety ought to be to apply , correct principles of government to that cOuntry. (Hear.) Sir C. WOOD said that anything had been discussed but the motion before the house. A number of subjects had been introduced which had no reference whatever to the tenure of land in Madras, and into which a commission, if appointed, could not inquire. He had no objection to members of that house doing as the hon. member for Man chester recommended, and taking a summer tour to India if they thought fit ; but he would suggest to them that it might be more comfortable if they went in winter. (A laugh.) But it was of little use to come to 'that house and give specific instancas of alleged grievances, which it was utterly impossible the government could inquire into and remedy, when absolute silence was preserved before those authorities on the spot, who might ascertain the truth of the story, and apply a remedy. It was impossible to be lieve that an intelligent, mercantile young gentleman could see his property seized by parties near to Madras, anti that the authorities, had they been applied to, would not have given him redress. But as he had neglected to apply to those persons, it was a waste of the time of the house to be occupied with grievances which it could not remedy. Mr. SEYMOUR—I said it was remedied. Sir C. WOOD was glad to hear that that was so. He hoped the remedy would be sought on the spot in every other such case. He had never denied the existence of evils enough in the presidency of Madras ; but it was nut to the tenure of land that those evils were to be attributed. They were owing rather to the over-assessment of the land. This was proved by the hon. member's statement. For about half a mile he found the land well cultivated ; all beyond that was badly cultivated. The assessment in the former case was 108. per acre; in the latter 20s. ; showing clearly that the evil was over -assessment, not the tenure of the land. (Hear, hear.) But the motion was for a commission to inquire not into the assessment of the land, but the tenure on which it was held. The tenure of land had no thing whatever to do with the condition of the peasantry, whether distressed or prosperous ; this was produced, no doubt, in great part, by the amount of the assessment; and all the evils stated to exist would at once he remedied if the assessment were put on a fair and equitable footing. This would have to be done by an act of the executive go vernment of Madras. The commission might inquire whe ther the ryot tenure or zemindar tenure was the best for holding land; but the over -assessment would equally affect them all. Almost all the authorities referred to had given the most decisive testimony that the best tenure 'in India was the ryotwar tenure. That was the kind of tenure which the natives had been longest accustomed. The greatest evils inflicted in India had been inflicted by our endeavouring to introduce English tenure, which was utterly contrary tothe habits and customs of the country. This attempt had pro duced great distress and misery at Bengal, and also at Ma dras. If they wished for a proof of the folly of sending out English gentlemen, and introducing English notions about the tenure of land, he would quote what h . ad been done at Madras, and refer to the book of Mr. Norton, quo.ed by Mr. Bright, which afforded sufficient proof that nothing could be so signal an evil. Atter converting the whole tenure of the province into zenaindar tenure, in 20 years the whole of the zemindars failed, and were sold up, and they were forced back into the ryotwar tenure. He main tained that the zemindars oppressed their ryot tenants quite as much as the Government did the tenants under them. There was a proof in Mr. Norton's book that the Government were far more lenient. But it was said it was necessary to have certainty of tenure, and therefore ryotwar system ought to be clone away with. The fact was that that system gave the greatest certainty, for the other only continued for 30 years. This was the case in the north-western district, where the laud was held on 30 years' leases. ' Mr. Bourdillion stated that the ryot knew his land would never be taken from him ; it descended from father to son. Mr. Fisher also stated that no one could have a greater interest in the land than the ryot ; if he had 50 acres and cultivated only 10 he paid for only 10, and no one could interfere with the rest. This might ex plain why there was a great deal of land out of culivation ; but it was evident that the ryotwar system was the best for the cultivator. The late Mr. Mackey, sent out to India from Manchester, had reported that the ryotwar tenure was the only one which would afford a solid foundation fur the holding of land. Stich was the concurrence of testi mony in favour of this species of tenure. He admitted that the assessment might be too high. But that was not the tenure ; the assessment was the amount of payment fixed upon the land, and Mr. Bourdillion stated that this pay ment was only in proportion to the quantity cultivated. All the authorities showed that the ryotwar tenure, which was perfectly well known and understood, was the best and most certain. The worst thing ever done for India was the attempt to force upon the people our English notions and systems of tenure, thereby the greatest misery had 'been produced. In the north-west provinces the Go vernment had adopted and enforced the system most con sistent with the habits and wishes of the people; and this system had been successful. In Madras the ryotwar sys tem had prevailed under the native princes, and had been continued by Sir Thos. Monro. It was a system which was prevalent in all Oriental countries, and experience had proved it to be the most successful. Nothing could be so useless as the commission proposed. It would be ex ceedingly impolitic and unwise to attempt to interfere with the tenure of the land ; but there were many evils that might be removed, particularly as related to the as sessment. This should be clone, not by a commission, but directly by the government of the province. A governor for Madras, Mr. Thomasson, had been selected, who would be most likely to carry out these improvements. Subse quently to his time the Governor-General sent a commis sion to inquire into the mode of collecting the land re venue, and Lord Harris also was instructed that his first duty would be to arrange the revenue and reduce the as sessment. He (Sir Charles Wood) had given his best at tention to the subject, but it was impossible to cure in a few months evils which had been growing for so many years. (Hear.) That much might be done was proved by what Lord Dalhousie had already effected, and there was every intention on the part of the authorities to proceed in the direction of reform. His hope was that by an improved mode of collecting the land revenue, and by a large expen diture on public works the condition of Madras might be raised to as high a pitch of prosperity as was enjoyed by any other part of India. Mr. J. G. PHILLIMORE complained of the manner in which the hon. member for Poole had been censured and misrepresented by the hon. baronet the member for Honi ton, but said that the hon. member for Poole had earned a reputation which enabled him to laugh to scorn such at tempts at calumny and ridicule. Nobody could say of the hon. member that he had any interest in perpetuating abuses, or that personal power or emolument was the cause of the interest he took in the affairs of India. (Hear.) The hon. member had brought forward facts, of which no denial had been attempted. The fact was that not more than one fifth of the land in Madras was under cultivation, and the next was that for the purpose of extracting a large amount of revenue torture was constantly practised on the unfortu nate natives. That fact the hon. baronet, the member for Honiton, had not dared to deny. (Hear, hear.) Aflother fact, which had not been denied, was that the tenure of land was such that to attempt the cultivation of land was a wild speculation. In short, none of the facts advanced had been disproved; and the result of their existence was, that the population of Madras was in the lowest state of misery and degradation. Mr. MANGLES said that the evil of the case lay not in the tenure of land, but in the mode of assessment; and that certainty required alteration. Mr. HENLEY thought the discussion which had been raised exceedingly valuable. It was admitted that the rent was excessive, but what was proposed was not the natural remedy—namely, the reduction of the rent, but a commis sion to inquire into the mode of collection. This was only a specimen of the mode in which the question was dodged from one party to another. He hoped they would soon hear that some action had, taken place, that the rent would be reduced, and the natural result would be that more land would be cultivated and the revenue would increase. He was glad therefore to hear the right hon. baronet say that the time for discussion had passed, and that the time for action had come. He should be glad to hear it denied on the authority of the right lion. gentleman, that torture was inflicted in the collection of the revenue, as had been stated. Sir C. WOOD did not believe the story, but he was not in a position to prove a negative. Inquiry should be made, but until it was made it was impossible for him to deny a statement put forward as a fact. ha M d r b . e enin MANGL ESlndiah a e s asserted never th a t he ar daring def the torturem a nybyeienagrs hein flicted in Madras for the purpose of colle ctin g the revenue. Mr. V. SCULLY quoted the authority of a Mr. Morris son, who said that the infliction of torture had often drawn forth a rupee the possession of which was denied. It had been admitted that India was rack-rented from end to end —(no)—and it was time, therefore, that the system was in quired into, in order that some improvement might be in troduced. The tenure appeared to be nothing more than from year to year, upon an uncertain assessment—which was even worse than rack-rent. He believed the tenure of land was the root of all benefit c , r of all evil in every country in the world. It was the same in India as in Ireland; an insecure tenure produced discontent, want, and misery ; while a secure and equitable tenure of land encouraged in dustry, and produced plpnty, independence, and tran quillity. He considered that there had been ample grounds shown for the appointmentof a commission to inquire into the tenure of laud in India. After a few words in explanation from Sir J. HOGG, Mr. OTWAY was astonished to hear from the hon. mem ber fur Guildford that he had never heard of the infliction of torture iu India, when he must know that a motion for inquiry into the subject had recently been made in the India-house, t had been stifled in the way in which in convenient motions generally were in that house. But he (Mr. Otway) knew that the practice of torture did prevail in India, and to put the m a tte r b e y on d d ou bt h e wou ld road part of a letter addressed by a gentleman (Mr. Theo bald), a member of the Calcutta bar, to the hon. member for Poole, in whichbe showed beyond doubt that the prac tice did prevail. It was as follows:—" We have had the news of the course of your inquiries, and of some of their results. Almost every vice and abuse flourishes in India. Your discovery of the practice of torture is no news to me. I believe it is practised in every lock-up house in Calcutta. In the Mofussil I had personal proof of it not long ago. Two ladies, a gentleman and myself, went up to Burrackpore in a palkeegliarre, having a coarse bag containing 400 rupees, which was certainly in the gharry just before our arrival, but was missed on arrival. After fruitless inquiry it was proposed to use the thumb-screw ' and we were assur e d b y th at means the thief could bo discovered ; we refused permission, but were assured it was a common practice. It ie high time to depart from a system in which such practices are com mon. The root of the evil, in my opinion, lies in the civil service; one man is placed officially over a million of people, scattered over some thousands of square miles, and everything depends on his virtue and ability. It is ab surd to make such distinctions between him and all the uncovenanted ; he is the tyrant over all, and is too apt to be hoodwinked by the clever but low class of natives. Really the civilian .governs only in name; the real gover nors are the kuavith natives. Tho support also which civilians uniformly receive at head-quarters makes them virtually irresponsible. There is a mutual compact among the members of this class which defeats - ail com plaints against them, though complaints often are made, and are well founded. Mr. MANGLES explained that what he had said was that he had never heard of torture being applied for the purpose of the collection of the revenue ; though he had heard of torture being inflicted by police officers, who ex ceeded their authority, for the purpose of extorting con fessions from criminals. Mr, ELLIOT could confirm the statement of Mr. Mangle. From his experience in Beng it and Madras, he did not be lieve torture had been inflicted as a means of enforcing payment of the revenue. He would not say that instances aright not have occurred of pe'ice.officers exceeding their authority as was sometimes done here ; but he did not be lieve that torture was inflicted, except in rare instances — and then it was wholly without authority—by tho police ; and with regard to the thumb-screw, he believed• it was unknown in India. The house then divided — For the motion 59 .Against it. 6l Majority Mr. BROTHERTON said that they had been sitting till two o'clock this morning, and again from twelve, and be should move the adjournment ot' the house. Lord D. STUART said he hoped his hon. friend would not persist in his motion.. He ought to consider that by adjourning the house now, on a Tuesday night, he deprived members of getting on with motions, which might be die- posed of in a few minutes. His hon. friend did not take this course when the Government had business to dispose of, and his taking this course with independent members, and not against the Government, was not calculated to raise him in the estimation of the house. He (Lord D. Stuart) had one motion on the paper which would lead to discussion, which ho did not propose to bring on, but he had another which would be disposed of in three minutes, and he should oppose the motion. Mr. J. D. FITZGERALD hoped Mr. Brotherton would not persevere in his motion for the adjournment of the house. At this period of the session members must take every opportunity to get on with their motions. Ho had a motion on the paper which there was no chance of bringing on again if the motion for the'adjourntnent was carried. Lord J. RUSSELL quite agreed that it wou'd not be advisable to go on with any motions which would produce discussion, but it would be refusing an opportunity of fix ing the days for disposing of some motions, and th row i ng over two or three on which there would Le no discussion, if this motion was persevered in. His hon. friend should remember that all the time would betaken in going through the motions, yet there would be almost as much time taken up in dividing. Mr. E. BALL hoped Mr. Brotherton would persevere, and that the observations which had been made would not prevent his doing his duty. Mr. BROTHERTON said ho had been deceived so o. ten that he must divide. The house divided— • For the adjournment 2l Against it B3 Majority —67 BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. Lord J. RUSSELL said a question was asked in the early part of the evening with regard to the business on Friday. He had intended that the vote for the new Se cretary at War should come on on Friday, He had sup posed that the Bribery Bill would have gone through com mittee last night, and he meant to have gone on with the estimates on Thursday. He should be obliged to go on with the estimates on Friday ; and therefore the iote for the Secretary at War would not come on till Monday. Now they had divided on the question of adjournment, he hoped that hon. members would not persevere with motions on which there was to be a debate. Mr. NAPIER said in consequence of the course that the del :11A° took yesterday on the Landlord and Tenaat Bill, he should feel it his duty to make a statement that must necessarily affect the character of the Government. He was anxious to make it at the earliest opportunity, and he hoped the noble lord would fix a time. He had not an opportunity yesterday, the time for the adjournment of the house having arrived. Lord J. RUSSELL—The right hon. gentleman may have an opportunity on Thursday. Mr. GROGAN—The morning sitting ? Lord J. RUSSELL—No, the evening sitting. CONSTABULARY FORCE (IRELAND.) Mr. FITZGERALD moved for returns of the number of inspectors, county inspectors, sub-inspector a, receivers, surgeons, assistant surgeons, veterinary surgeons, pay masters, head constables, constables, and subconstables, now fqrming the constabulary force in Ireland, and stat ing the pay and emoluments of each class, and the number of Catholics in each class. Of the number of promotions or appointments to each class above the rank of sub-con stable in each year for ten years last past, and stating in each instance the number of Catholics promoted or ap pointed. Aud, the number of sub-constables who have left the force within the last three years. The mo tion, he said, was one of considerable importance, especially in the circumstances in which they stood. Fur some time there had been a belief that the promotions in that force had not been fairly carried out, that there had been an undue proportion of Pro testants promoted. It should be borne in mind that the proportion of the population was eight Catholics to one Protestant. Of the thirty-five county inspectors there was not one Catholic. Rather he should say there was not one when he placed the notice on the paper, but since then there had been a vacancy which had been filled up by a Catholic. Then there were 248 sub-inspectors, of whom 219 were Protestants. The surgeons, assistant-surgeons, and veterinary surgeons were, he believed, all Protestants. There were 322 head constables, of whom 268 were Pro testants. Of constables the rank next above the lowest there were 1,800, of whom 1,300 were Protestants ; and of sub-constables, there were 8,300 Catholics to 1,600 Protes tants. There was a precedent for this motion, Mr. Phinn having obtained a similar return in 1833. He had no sec tarian motive in view in bringing forward the motion. This force had a great hold on the affections of the people, and his object was to prevent a course being pursued-which would render it unpopular. At present the sub-constables were leaving the force in great numbers, as they believed they had not a fair prospect of promotion. Sir J. YOUNG said whatever precedents there might be for such a return he hoped the house would not agree to it. If a return were made of the figures without ac companying statements it would be exceedingly unfair, but in Ireland the figures would be quoted without the state ment. Without attempting to impugn the accuracy of the figures, quoted by the hon. gentleman, he was pre pare i to say that no partiality had been shown in the pro motions, and indeed he was prepared to show that the Roman Catholics had received rather more than their due share. Though the Roman Catholics were the great ma jority of the people, it should be remembered that they were by no means the majority in the class from which persons belonging to an educated profession were taken. When Sir Duncan Macgregor took the command of the force some years ago, the Protestants were as two to one compared with the Catholics. By degrees the proportions had been altered, so that there were now two Catho lics to one Protestant. He did not think that a single case could be found in which any partiality had been shown on the score of religion. Mr. J. O'CONNELL thought it would have been much more judicious if the right hon. gentleman (Sir J. Young) had not objected to these returns. Lord NAAS thought he had never heard a motion more likely to have a bad effect than the present. It was au attempt to make out a grievance where none existed. (Oh.) In truth the motion was an attack on Sir D. Mac gregor—(hear, hear)—who alone was responsible for the promotion in the force under consideration. (Hear.) He (Lord Naas) considered that Sir D. Macgregor was entitled to the thanks of the country for the efficient state to which he had brought the Irish constabulary force. Mr. CROSSLEY objected to going on with the discus sion at a quarter past 12 at night, when the house would meet at 12 to-morrow. Mr. FITZGERALD replied. He knew one instance in which a Roman Catholic, who had been repeatedly passed over, had been promoted since notice was given of this motion. He found no direct fault with Sir 1). Macgregor, for he knew not enough of the rules of the force to say whether he was to blame or not. He wished this return in order to fix the blame on the right shoulders— The house divided—. - • For the motion 2l Against it Majority —4l ROYAL MILITARY ASYLUM. _ On the motion of Mr. S. HERBERT, leave was given to bring in a bill to authorise the application of a sum of mo ney out of the forfeited and unclaimed Army Prize Fund, in enlarging and improving the Royal Military Asylum. itt bill . to STUARTS A N GOVERNMENT moved fur leave to C b U r i R n I g T E a S b . Lord R a S render the purchase or dealing with securities issued by the Russian Government during the present war betwe,n Russia and England a misdemeanour. The noble lord said the house was aware that as the law at present stood, any p er son belonging to this country who advanced money to Russia thereby became guilty of high treason, and that a notification to that. effect had lately been made to British subjects residing in the Hans Towns. Having spoken to the Attorney-General on the subject, be had found that there was no law whatsoever to prevent a British subject from purchasing Russian securities, provided the Russian Government succeeded in contracting a loan ; and it was for this reason that he sought to introduce the bill. His object was to throw as many difficulties the enemy's way as possible, and he believed the attainment of that object would be materially facilitated by the passing of the bill. Leave was then given to bring in the bill. JAMAICA. On the motion of Mr. J. WILSON, leave was given to bring in a bill founded on the resolution of the previous night guaranteeing a loan of 500,0001. to the colony of Jamaica. The house adjourned at half-past one. PARLIAMENTARY DIVISION. HOUSE OF COMMONS—Jury 11. TENURE OF LAND (MADRAS.) Motion made, and question put, " That an humble -address be presented to her Majesty, that she will be graciously pleased to appoint a commission to proceed to India to inquire into the tenure of land in the Presidency of Madras," The house divided; ayes 59, noes 61, AYES-59. Ball, E. Mayes, Sir E. Napier, J. Barnes, T. Henley, J. Otway, A. Bell, J. Heywood, J. Pakinston, Sir J. Ili ight, J. Heyworth, L. Pechell, Sir G. Butt, I. Ingham, it. Phi ,limore, J. G. ('a% ley, E. S. .Tolliffe, Sir W. Pilkington, J. Chambers, M. Jones, D. Pollard-Urquhart W. Cheetham, John Keating, R. Potter, R. Conolly, T. Kennedy, T. Robartes, T. Craufurd, E. H.J. Keret' tw, J. Scully, V Crossley, F. King, L. Stuart, Lord D. Disraeli, Rt. lion. B. Knox, W. S. Tailor, Col. T. Fitz Gerald, J. Laslett, W. Tempest, Lord A. V. Gaskell, J. Lucas, F. Whiteside, J. Goderich, Viscount Macartney, G. Wilkinson, W. Greene, Capt. John Maguire, J. F. Williams, W. Grogan, Edward Martin, J. Wise, A. Gwyn, Howel M all, E. Hadfield, George Morris, D. TELLERS. Hamilton, O. A. Murrough, J. Blacke' t, J. F. B. Hawkins, W. Naas, Lord Seymour, H. NOES-64. A'Court, C. Hankey, T. 'Pigott, F. Anderson, Sir J. Basile, Alex. Pinney, W. Baring, l'. Hastie, Archd. Price W. Blair, Col. J. IL lleathcote, Sir G. Russell, Lord J. Bland, L. H. Herbert, S. Russell, F. C. Bonham-Carter, J. Ilervey, Lord A. Sawle, C. Brocklehurst, J. Hogg, Sir J. W. Scobell, Capt. Brotberton. J. Ilughes, W. Spooner, R. Cardwell. E. Keogh, W. Thornely, T Cowan, C. Kirk, W. Vernon, G. Davie, Sir H. R. F. Langton, TI. G. Vernon, Capt. L. Duncan, G. Loveden, P. Vivian, H. H. Dunne, M. Lowe, R. Waking, Col. Elcho, Lord Ludt( T. Whitbread, S. Elliot, J. E. Mang;es, R. Wickham, H. Fitzroy, lion. 11. Marjinibanks, D. Wilson, J. Fortescue, C. Michel, Dr. W. Wool, Sir C. Fox, R. Molesworth, sir W. Young, Sir J. reach, C Monsell, W. Goodman, Sir G. lowbray, J. TELLERS. Graham, Sir J. Mulgrave, Earl of Or enc, Thomas Palmerston, Viscount Hay ter, W. Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir G. Philt more, R. J Berkeley, G. TILE ABDUCTION CASE IN TIPPERARY.—The Court of Queen's Bench, as was anticipated, has refused to ad mit to bAil Mr. John Carden, of Barnane, charged with an attempt at abduction, at the church of Rathronan, where he endeavoured, with the assistance of an armed party, forcibly to carry off Miss Arbuthnot from her family. From the judgment of the Lord Chief Justice, in the report of the application on Monday, it will be seen that his lordship thinks it quite possible that the prisoner may be indicted at the next assizes for the south division of Tipperary for an actual abduction, and that a charge of conspiracy may also be preferred, Mr. Carden's residence is in the barony of Lower Ormond, Ind in the Northern Riding of Tipperary. THE RECENT SHOOTING CASE /N LIVERPOOL —Yes terday, at the Liverpool police court, the case against Capt. Brock, captain of the American ship Harkaway, who was charged with firing a pistol at one of his sea men and wounding him in the face, was again brought on for investigation, but the wounded man not being able to attend, the captain was further remanded until this day (Wednesday). BIRTHS. OF A SON. On the 11th inat., at 12, Remington-palace Gardens, Hyde-park, the wife of S. Morton Peto, Esq., M.P. On the 9th inst., in Eaton-place, the wife of C. Evan Thomas, Esq. SHIPPING INTELLIGENCE. VESSELS SP3KEN WITH. The Cordelia, from Liverpool to New York, June 13, let. 44 N., long. 52 W. The Victoria, from Mauritius to Liverpool, May 3, lat. 34 , S , long. 15 E. ~. The GeO'rgia„ June 8, lat. 11 N., long. 47 W. The Either May, from Liverpool to Philadelphia, Juno 15, lat. 42 N., long. 66 W. The Tiger (brig), bound w e s t, same d a y. The Nptune (Danish brig), from Liverpool to Ha vannah. June 24, lat. 40 N., long. 14 W. The Cata - raqui, from Quebec to London, June 19, off Mount Louis. The Cynthia, from Ardrossan to Providence, June 6, lat. 43 N. long. 44 W. The Queen of the East, with emigrants, June 30, lat. 40 N., long. 17. The Ambassador, from New Orleans to Liverpool, For tugas W.N.W._2O miles. The Queen of the West, from Liverpool to New York, June 20. The St. Patrick, from Newport to New York, June 21, lat. 42 N., long. 64. W. The St. Helena, from London to Geelong, June 2, lat. 6 N. long. 23 W. The Coromandel, June 30, lat. 44 N., long, 10 W. The International, from New Orleans to Liverpool, June 8, lat. 49 N., long. 75 W. The Ravenswood, from New York, bound east, June 17, lat. 42 N., long. 66 W. The Adelia, from the Clyde to Providence, June 11, lat. 43 N., long. 49 W. The - Queen, from Liverpool to Natal, May 16, lat. 1 N., long. 26 W. Toe Alexander, for Melbourne, May 23, lat. 6 N., long. 23 W. COUNTRY MARKETS. LIVERPOOL-JULY 11. There was a good attendance to-day, but the purchases were to a very limited extent, although wheat was offered at 4d to 6d per "Nibs., and flour is to 2s per barrel, decline. Oats and oatmeal id to ld per 451 b , and is per load, lower. Barley, beans, and peas nominally without change. Indian corn recovered the decline, 35s 6d per qr, being obtainable for best yellow and white American. IPSWICH-JULY 11, A very small show of wheat offering to-day. The trade remains exceedingly heavy, the millers alone the buyers, and they only for their immediate wants. We consider that a fall of 2s to 3s per qr. took place before sales could be made. Unusually heavy storms of rain are flying about in various districts, and the reports of the crops being considerAly lodged are general. The absence of sun and heat is also considered to be retarding the prospect of harvest. All spring corn inquired for, and dear. PER QUARTER. PER QUARTS' Wheat, red (old) 70s to 72s Barley, grinding ... 00s to 001 Ditto (new) Ditto, white (new) 76s to BUs Peas Ditto (old) Barley, malting 35s to 3.9k.1F10ur, per sack AVERAGES FOR THE WEEK ENDING JLLY 11, 1854. Wheat Oats Bears Barley Peas HUL Few samples of English w could not be bought on less 1 Is to 2s decline. Barley dull inquiry at rather lower prices. bones nothing doing. ULY 11. 'heat showing. Fresh foreign terms, but, out of conditioned of sale. Oats meet limited Linseed cakes easier. In fil 8 Wheat, English, red 75 to 77 Ditto white 79 to 82 Dautzic and Konigs berg 78 to 80 Pomeranianandllam- Peas, grey and black to Linseed, Black Sea 67 to 6 8 Ditto Petersburgh 62 to 66 Ditto Riga and Arch angel Ditto Konigsberg and Memel - burgh Danish, Holstein, and Friesland 6B to 74' Russian and Odessa 60 to 66 Oats, English Ditto Danish Ditto Friesland Ditto Russian 32 to 33 Barley, malting Ditto grinding 3l to 35i Beans Ditto foreign Peas, whit and yel 47 to 5o Per Ton. Lins.e.,Hull 10/15s tolo/ 17k 64 Ditto fine for. 915 s 10/ los Od Ditto inf. for Ol Os Od to 01 us Rapeseed OOl Os to 001 Os Rape cakes Tares, English oos to 00s Ditto foreign Guano 4l 10s 81 to 121 Os Bones Rye Meal RAILWAY SHARE MARKET. LIVERPOOL, JULY 11. STOCK EXCHANGE.—The market has ,been very fist to-day. Caledonian, 314 ; East Lancashire, 168 • Lan cashire and Yorkshire, G 5,1 ; London and North-Western, 101 3i; Manchester, Sheffield, and Lincoln, 21i a ; Mid land, 65i ; South-Eastern, 19 184 ; York and North Mid land, 27. MANCHESTER, JULY 11. STOCK EXCHANGn.—Business limited, and prices the turn in favour of buyers. The sales were :—Lancashire and Yorkshire, 65A ; ditto Fifths, 7 dis. ; London and North-Westerns, M. and B. Qrs. C., prem. ; Midland Railway Consols, 651 ; South-Eastern, 19. BIRMINGHAM, JULY 11. STOCK EXCHANGE.—The share market was depressed, although sales were understood to have been effected in private. The only translation reported on 'Change was Shrewsbury and Birmingham Stock, 65. BRISTOL, JULY 11. STOCK EXCHANGE.—The market was again flat, with little or no business transacted. Great Westerns were done at 78i to R. COURSE OF EXCHANGE—YESTERDAY. Amsterdam ............ 11 !hi/ 2 GI brat ar .............. Ditto, three months .. 11 17 V, ..eghorn 30 hu Rotterdam ...... • • .... 11 17 y 4 Genoa ................ 25 40 Antwerp .............. 25 25 Milan ................ Brussels •• •• • • ••• • • • 25 25 Venice •.„••• se •• •• •• •• •• Hatriburgh .. 13 6 Naples 43 Altona ................ Palermo .. 1 E7l Paris • • ........ •• •• 25 2% ,dessina 274 .............. Ditto, three months • • 25 30 ,Lisbon .........• •... .. 53 Marseilles...... •• • • .... 25 1:0 l Oporto 53, % Bourdeanx .......... • . Ri Janeiro .. ...... Frankfort-on-Maine .... 118% titienos Ayres..... --- Berlin . ............ ;New York, 60 days' 31,11' 48 Vienna • .... 13 5 (Philadelphia .......... Trieste ............ • • :3 5 Fakes OF BULLIO.N , rue oz• Petersburg 7--- •..... 3 6 1 . ,, Foreign Gold in BIN Z., 17 9 Madrid ...... •• 49'5 l'ortngal Gold Coln . it'U Cadiz •• .......• .... 50 vtexicgn Dollars .... ' 0 Barcelona.... New 1/ellen 0 0 ~e vWe •••• ............ Silver in bars ...- • - 0 0 RAILWAY ACCIDENT.—A Lascar was killed at the Southampton terminus on Saturday by the buffer of s coal waggon. H e was b ur i e d b y h i s fellow Lascars . that town a few hours after the accident. Hundreds of these Lascars are encamped in the docks under a can's° tent. [ADVERTISEMENT.] Her Majesty's Royal Letters Patent, for valuable and extraordinary improvements ill the most powerful an d b r illi an t T e l escopes, C amp, R ac e_ course, Opera, and Perspective Glasses (glazed with 1 Munic Germ a n Gl ass ), t o k now th e di stances objects viewed through them—of great importance to the army, navy, and others. Messrs. S. and 1 3 ' Soloroons, opticians, 39, Albemarle-street, Piccadilly' . Observe—opposite the York Hotel.—These telescopes F es. sess such extraordinary powers that some 3i inches, with an extra eye-piece, will show distinctly Jupiter's moons, Saturn's ring, and the double stars; with the same tele scope can be seen a person's countenance three milts and a half distant, and an object from 12 to 14 miles' They are of larger and all sizes, with increasing powers accordingly.—The Royal Exhibition, 1851.—Valuable , newly-invented, very small, powerful waistcoat-pocket glass the size of a walnut, by which a person can be sees and known mile distant ; they answer every purpose on the race-course, and at the opera-houses, country so" nery, and ships are c l ear l y seen a t 5 to 6 miles. Thai are invaluable for shooting, deer-stalking, yachting, to sportsmen, gentlemen, gamekeepers, and tourists. °pert' , race-course, camp, and perspective glasses, with wonderful power; an object can be clearly seen from 10 to 12 miles distant. Newly-invented Spectacles ; immediately they are placed before extremely imperfect vision, every object becomes clear and distinct ; the most aged, de' fective sight is brought to its youthful, natural, and ori' ginal state. Deafnes s —N ew Di sc overy —The Organic vi' brator, au extraordinary powerful, small, newly-invented instrument, for Deafness, entirely different from all others , to surpass anything of the kind that has been, or Pro bably ever can be, produced. Being of the same, colour as the skin, is not per c eptibl e ; it ena bl es des' persons to hear distinctly at church and at public ss' semblies • the unpleasant sens a ti on o f s i ng i ng no i ses i n the ears is entirely removed ; and it affords all the assistance that possibly could be desired. -39, Albemarle-street, Pic" cadillv. Observe, opp os it e th e Y or k H ote l . [ADVERTISEMENT.] Holloway's Ointment and Pills, the most effectual cure for Gout and Rhentnatism.- 4 frequent cause of these complaints is the infiammatori state of the blood, attendant with bad digestion, lassitude , and great debility, showing the want of a proper circuls* tiou of the fluid s , an d th at i mpurity of the blood greatly aggriates these painful disorders. Holloway's pills are of so purifying a na t ure th a t a few doses, taken in time, is an effectual preventive against gout and rheumatism ; but any one who has an attack of either should use Holloway"! ointment also, the powerful properties of which, combined with the effects of the pill, ensures a certain cure. Sold by all druggists, and at Professor Holloway's, 244, Strand. OF A DAUGHTER. On the Bth inst., at 53, Queen Anne-street, the wife of the Bishop of Lincoln. On the Rth inst., at Sussex-place, Kensington, the wife of John Woollett, Esq., barrister-at-law. MAR BIRD. On the Bth inst , at Trinity Church. Marylebone, Mr. S. Lawrence, to Emily Sarah, only child of the late B. 11(.rner, Esq., of Albany-street, Regent's park. On the 6th inst., at Sheptou Mall e tt, S omerse t s hi re , C. Brettingham, Esq., of Sheptou Mallett, to Lydia Louisa , second daughter of the Major J. H. Harrison, of 1 1 11 mouth. .D I E D. On the 10th inst., at Bradley Rectory, Mary, wife of the Rev. Henry A. Plow, rector of Bradley, and perpetual curate of Wield. On the 10th inst., at his residence, Great George-street, Liverpool, James Muire, Esq. On the 9th inst., Haffez Mence. Esq., of 31, Grana° parade, Brighton, Lieutenant H. P. of H. M. 32d Begi" went. LONDON : Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG' of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, No. 11 2 ; Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, i n th e county _ Middlesa, July 13,1551.