The Sun. — London, England, 1830-02-26 00:00:00

Should cast upon them a censure the most severe, and an imputation the most disreputable—that a motion for an inquiry into the state of the naticn had a tendency to effect their removal from office. I. seas admitting that the errors of Ministers, which he believed to be gross and various, would be made evident by the inquiry. He would ask, what would be said—what would be thought of that individual, who, on any imputation of misma . nagement, should refuse inquiry? What, bat that he -- was wrong ? and who could be so desirous of having in vestigetion as the Ministers? IF this view were correct, it composed the singular opinion expressed in that extra-. ordinary paper, the Speech of the Lord Commiesionere, and expressed by the Noble Duke in his speech: An opinion that, if true, would be confirmed by such an he: spiry, That distress was only partial, and temporary,-- W 43 imputable to the seasons--and was not caused, and eould not be cured by legislation. If such were to be the result of inquiry, inquiry must give great satis faction to Ministers. If Ministers were sincerely of this opinion, and conscientiously believed the Speech from the Throne, it was equally their interest end duty to call for the feast inquiry, and would justify them in the eyes of balers besides those who were "neatly ready to approve of the measures of any individual' who enjoy the same patronage. He felt most ttreangly a personal veneration for the Noble Duke at the head of the Government, and he was equally ifeeitous that the public should be satisfied, by the result of an inquiry, that those evils (lid not exist which he thought was the disgrace of the Noble Duke's Administration, and destructive to the interests of the country. The Noble Duke deserted great veneration, and would be consigned to the latest posterity as the great warrior who had defended Europe ; but he would also be consigned to posterity as the Minister under whose Administration the ruin of the country had been consummated. What was the situation of the country? He was sure that no man the least acqtsainted with the country, could look on it without horror and dismay.— (Hear, hear.) It was a general conviction that inquiry was indispensible to ascertain the causes of this misery and provide for its cure. Their Lordships were aware of the sufferings of the agricultural classes; and though it was said that the object of the Government was to uphold the landed interest; yet were the landed gentlemen not lis tened to, and the petitions of the agriculturists were treated with contempt. If, however, they had formed alliances, and called to their assistance those of the other classes who were complaining of the same oppreesion—if they had formed a fund to prosecute their objects—if they had col • lected rents, and used the langoaee of menace and intimi dation, it was probable that their grievances would have been attended with other effects.—(Hear, hear.) What was, in fact, the situation of that class? Why, that they were totally incapable of paying any rent from the pro fits of their produce. He believed there was not a Noble Lord present who did not know this to be the case. There was not a Noble Lord present who did not know that in many places the rents were paid in part, nod in other places almost wholly, net from the profits of the farm, but from the capital of the farmer.—(Hear, hear.) —And he would say new—let not those who might have been fortunate enough to get a great portion of their rents paid at the last audit day, fancy they will stilt continue to be es) fortunate—let them not lay the flattering unction to their souls, that thry will be so fortunate again. They must know that many of the farmers have been driven from their farms ; that others were ruined and become bankrupts--they must know that their capital and stock is daily wasting away, and when that stock and that capital are exhausted, then the ruin and misery of the agriculturists and the land-owners will be completed. He was well aware that great numbers of the land-owners were not wholly dependent on the rents of their land for their expenditure—he knew that many of them derived large revenues from property in the funds—from canals and from houses, and from various other sources; end that their situation was diffe rent from that of others who had no support, except what they derived from the land ; and that they were, there fore, comparatively indifferent to that distress which did not affect their interests to such an overpowering extent. He would tell these persons, however, that they had no right to dispose of the capital and property of the farmer for their exclusive benefit; that they had no right to rob -him of that sum which he had collected by the exertions of honest industry, of economy, and of a successful application of his skill in agriculture, in order to promote their own selfish purposes. He knew it was said that a remedy could be found—a reduction of the rents; an advice g . ven by those who had no rents to receive, and no rents to pay, if he excepted house rent.—(A laugh.)—'When, however, farmers suffered from a reduction of the pi ices of all the produce of their farms, the reduction of their rents followed as a matter of course. A reduction of rent, however, in his opinion, only transferred the produce from the occupier of the land to the owner, and by compelling the landlord to curtail the whole of his expenditure, only tended to render the aggregate of distress more universal. They might talk, however, of a reduction of rent, but - those who did so knew very little of the matter. Rents hail been reduced. lie was not now alluding to himself, but he knew places in which the landlords had reduced the rents upwards of 50 per cent. ; and he feared that they would be now content to receive much less than that. There never was a greater delusion than the assertion that a reduction of rent would do good to the consumer. If not an acre of land in England paid rent, he was confident that it would net make a difference to the consumer of one penny in the quartern loaf.--(Hear, and a laugh )—ln many places no rents are paid at all at the ;resent moment, and the N o ble D u k e an d o th ers oug ht t o know' that where no rent is paid none can be reduced. Ile feared that the extent of public misery and agricultural distress was but very little known by his Majesty's Government. He knew several farms, in - which the expenses of cultivation exceed ed by six shillings, the whole of the gross produce of an acre of land, without taking - the rent into consideration. So that the farmer was a loser to the amount of six shil lings, and the rent on every acre he cultivated. They were told, however, by the Noble Duke that this was the result of unfortunate seasons. Now, it was rather curious that Lord Liverpool, at the time that the agricultural dis tress was urged on his attention, attributed it to a long course of favourable seasons, which bad created a glut and auperabundancs ; and that, therefore, the state of the land-owners was not so melancholy as had been supposed, and that the increase of consumption would speedily relieve them. The great, however, as well as the most grievous and alarming symptom of the present distress, was to be found in the increase of the Poor's Rates, which are now at an amount almost incredible, and without parallel in the history of the country. He knew a rich and fertile district of England—the vale of Aylesbury—in which the Poor's Rates hail reached the proportion of thirty shillings on every acre. Now, he would leave the Noble Duke to say what was the measure of rent that would fall to the land lord, or of profit that could go to the tenant, after the discharge of such a burthen ? Their Lordships would also recollect tne statement of a Noble Viscount (Tor rington), the other evening, respecting the parish of Mereworth, in Kent. In that parish the Noble Viscount stated that the local assessments amounted to within just forty pounds of the whole rental of the parish; conse quently there remained just that sum to Le divided among the farmers and proprietors of land. He knew also a parish in Sussex, in which the whole proceeds of the land were insufficient to maintain its poor, and the inhabitants had for some time been compelled to ap ply to the neighbouring parishes for assistance and support. Looking at statements like these, and know ing the number of agricultural districts in which the same description of distress could be found, he confessed he thought we were fast on the road to, if we had not quite arrived at, that state of distress in which the landed proprietors held their properties, not for the purpose of supporting or enriching their possessors, hut tee rely in order to act as trustees for the paupers who resided on their estates. The next stage to this teas, he feared, not far distant—that stage in which the unhappy persons thus scantily and wretchedly supported, would relieve them- selves irom their miserable condition ; and finding they could neither obtain' a livelihood by the exercise of honest industry, nor support from the estate on which they were placed, would at once endeavour to put an end to a state of things so intolerable, and enforce, through the power of their numbers, a division of the land. Their Lordships knew the wretched con dition of the agricultural districts. They knew that in some placit the labourers had been degraded to the con dition of beasts of burden, and yoked in carts like cattle, to draw loads for their task -masters. Was this a state of things that could be endured? Was this the condition of the people of that happy land which once boasted to all the world of the blessings of its glorious Constitution, and who looked with an eye of compassion on the wretched condi tion of others who could not hoi,e to become partici pators in the same blessings ?—(Hear, hear.)—lt had been said that distress : did; not exist in Ireland. Now, he asserted that it did, and he would read part of a letter which he had received from a highly respectable person in Cork, as a proof of the truth of his assertion. Before he read that letter, however, lie would just call their Lord ships' attention to the expressions used by no less a person than the Chancellor of the Exchequer, while alluding to the same subject in the other House of Parliament. That Right Hon. Gentleman was reported to have expressed himself thus ;—lt was not to be denied that there was a ' great and severe presetue of distress on the manufacturin6 anti Agricultural classes of the community in some parts of the United Kingdom ; and if he excepted some portions from that summary, it was because he believed that there were parties which, so far from being visited with such infliction, were enjoying a comparative state of ease and of comfort. It was observable that the Hon. Baronet (alluding to Sir Edward Knatclibull) had confined his statements to England only, and had omitted all notice of that part of the United Kingdom which at all times com manded much of the care and attention of that House—he alluded to Ireland. If the Hon. Baronet had investigated the state of agricultural produce in that country, he would have found that great prosperity and comfort were existing, and he would likewise have found that there were parts of this country in which much of the pressure of distress had arisen from the free introduction of Irish produce ; so that in proportion as one part of the kingdom was depressed, at least another partion was benefitted and advanced." Now this Was reported to have been uttered in a House in which there should have been at least one hundred Irish Mem bers present, every one of whom could have borne testi• many to its falsehood. He would now return to those facts which proved that the assertions of the Right Hon. Gentleman were unfounded. The writer of the letter to which he alluded, stated in Bandon—a town of 12,000 inhabitants—there were 4,000 in a state of the greatest distress ; and that in the city of Cork more than 9,000 persons were wholly supported by voluntary contributions to the House of Industry, from whence it was admini stered for their support. The writer of the letter also added, that bacon pigs had fallen thirty per cent. in price during the last twelve months—that oats were almost un saleable—that wool was in the same state, and had been parted with for sixpence a pound. He also added, that he had received several notices of the surrender of a farm which had formerly always been let with a fine; and that debts, instead of being recoverable, were in almost every case being compounded for at the rate of six or eight shil lings in the pound. [Lord Darnley was here observed to smile, and express his dissent.] The Noble Lord might smile, but it would be well for him, if, as the possessor of Irish estates, he did not find the statement but too true. Having said so much on the subject of the agricul tural distress, he would now entreat their Lordships to consider what was the state of the manufacturing classes. Did there exist a man possessed of a heart to feel for the situation of his fellow creatures,whose bosom did net throb with agonising pangs when he heard that thousands of un fortnnate persons out of employment were compelled to drag on a miserable existence with an allowance of twopence halfpenny a day. It behoved Ministers to consider well how long they were likely, with any mili tary force, however considerable, to preserve tranquillity in the country, and to keep the discontents of so many classes who had little to lose and little to fear from break ing out into open rebellion. It was said, however, that the master manufacturers were prosperous, although the men might be in a state of suffering. He feared that the condition of the master manufacturers was deceptions; and that, although their production: might be large and their trade apparently great, the profits arising from it affinded no remuneration for the employment of their capital. He knew, that a Noble Lord near hiss could contradict him if he was wrong . , that the price of one of the staple articles of the trade of Birmingham had fallen one half, and the wages of labour had been reduced still more lamentably-- he believed to the extent of one quarter of their former amount. The Noble Duke may say that much of this was owing to the productive power of steam when ap plied to machinery. He was well aware of the effects likely to be produced by the undue extension of the powers of steam. He knew that it tended to the injury of the labouring classes, and was not attended with correspond ing benefits, because the advantages which it produced by giving cheap articles to the consumer, and a large stock to the manufacturer, were more than counter-balanced by the additions it made to the peors' rates. But even sup posing that some of the distress of the manufacturers was owing to the power looms, it surely could not be said that those power rooms had been introduced since last Ses sion. The power looms were in existence years ago, and the distress which has been so apparent for the last two years could not well be connected with them ; besides, if the Noble Duke was informed so well as he ought to be, he would know that the power looms had been given up in several districts. It never, however, had been contended that the production of power looms was not fur the benefit of the masters. All that was said was, that it enabled them to fabricate far beyond the quantity that could be consumed ; anti he con fessed it was very natural that they should endeavour to make up fur the diminution of their profits by the extent of the quantity which they could bring into the market. He had heard a great deal of excessive production, but when he found that those who would always purchase the comforts and necessaries of life, if they had the means, were unable to do so any longer, he thought the decrease of consumption would be found to have gone on in an exact ratio with the increase of distress, and that the ex cessive produce was not the consequence of over manufac ture, but of a diminished means of purchase. There might be, he had no doubt, a glut of produce at a parti cular season; but to say that the manufacturers would go on for years piling up heap on heap of manufactures with out end, would I e to say what every min knew was not the case—that the manufacturers of England were totally ignorant of the principles of trade, and possessed not even ordinary prudence in the management of their affairs.— (Hear, hear.)—The Noble Duke, in that elaborate com position, the Speech from the Throne, had proclaimed to the country that the exports of the country exceeded those of all former years. Now he (Lord Stanhope) did not mean to say that the exports of official value might not have done so; but the Noble Duke knew well, that if taken according to the real value, it would be found the exports hail greatly fallen off. Profits of trade must he acknowledged to be in a direct ratio with the quantity and the price ; and, therefore, when the Noble Duke attempted to prove that the country was flourishing because the exports had increased, it was incumbent on him to show, at the same time, that quantity as measured by tl.e declared value was also greater than it had been in former years. But what said the manufacturers and mer chants themselves? The trade was carried on without any profit—that the outlay of capital produced no returns, and that goods were sold at a loss. He bad heard, indeed, that so little was the demand for manufactures, that goods sent to the other hemisphere had failed to find a market, and were returned again to this country under the vain hope that they might be disposed of. He should be glad to know bow this could he reconciled with the assertion that trade was flourishing and commerce profitable ? He knew well it was not in the power of the Noble Duke or of the Parliament of England to prevent all foreign com petition, but then what was the just inference to Ire drawn from this? Why, that it was the duty of the Govern ment to support and encourage the home market by every means in their power, instead of depressing and destroy ing those who at all times proved the most secure anti most exteusive consumers of the pro.lucts of our industry. The extent of home consumption had been estimated as high as nine-tenths of the whole production, and he knew it had never been lower than four-tenths of the whole. Looking at foreign consumption, he would beg their Lord ships to tonsider what eves the state of the West Indians, at all times the most important of the consumers of our produce. By a series of impolitic measures their re sources were crippled, and they were deprived of the means of paying far our manufactures. According to the state wenn) of the West Indian proprietors, it appeared that the tax cn the higher description of sugar was 33 high as 50 per cent., leaving the planter, as a remuneration for the cost of production, only twelve shillings on the fine kind, and nothing on the lower. While this was the state of the Colonies, what was the condition of the ship-owner? Why, it was admitted on all sides that he could not carry on his trade without a loss, while foreigners were reaping advantages of which he was deprived. Many parted with their ships at a loss of 40 per cent., rather than continue to work them at a loss. Such was the state to which the measures of the Government had reduced one of the greatest interests of the country—one to which our an cestors attached the highest importance, and or.e to which we must be indebted for our maritime power and our in sular security. Having thus briefly adverted to the state of agriculture, manufactures, and trade, he was pained to observe in the survey, that, although all were in a state of distress and progressive misery, there did not appear a single grain of hope or comfort to illumine the prospect for the future. The Noble Duke had, however, found one topic of consolation in the midst of the general desolation, and that was—that the traffic on the canals had iucreased— (Hear, hear)—and that the tonnage employed on them had reached an amount never known before. How lamentable must be the condition of Government, and haw limited must be its information, when the Noble Duke at its head is driven to such a topic for an argument? lie was at a loss to know whether the Noble Duke's information on the subject of canals was drawn from official returns or private mernorandums.—( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) He de nied, however, that it afforded conclusive testimony of the prosperity of trade ; for if goods could not meet with a market, and were hawked up and down for sale, that would increase the traffic on the canals, although it might bring neither profit to the owners of the goods, nor add to the prosperity of the country. The Noble Duke had also said look at the number of new houses that are built—surely all are not distressed ; those who take these houses and live in them cannot. be distressed. Why: ree4v , although they all katw that the Noble Duke had travelled through the greater poi Lion of the country last summer, one would suppose, from the extent of his in formation, that he had not psesed bt yowl the bounds of the bills of mortality. These houses were neither built for nor occupied by the productive classes. Could the Noble Duke name to him the number of mills that were also newly built, and of manufactories that were rising up throughout the country ? He had heard of none. Those who had good in comes, increased by the distresses of others, lived in good houses, but the mass of the people were compelled to seek a refuge in any shed which afforded a covering. The Noble Duke had also said that the retail dealers were not affected by the distress. Now he would say, taking into considera tion the immense wealth expended in the metropolis, that many retail dealers were distressed even there ; and lie had good reason to believe that the distress of the country dealers was very great. Could any one also deny that the dis tress of the retail dealers in Ireland wes great, when debts were compounded for at 3s. in the pound ? But there was no argument in saving that all were not distressed. No one who complained of general distress intended to say that the fundholders and annuitants p irticipated in that &s -tress. No !—the large capitalists were increasing by the misfortunes of the others, and flourishing, like rank and noxious weeds, amidst the ruin anti desolation which sur rounded them.—(Hear, hear.)—But the fundholders were themselves injured by the distress, not because their in comes mere diminished, but because the security for those incomes was diminished. Was that security found in the prosperity of the Revenue or was it not? It was stated in that famous and oft-referred to Speech from the Throne, that the national income of the year had attained the full amount at which it was estimated. Now he thought it would have been fairer to state that it had not reached the amount of the former year. The Duke of WELLINGTON said no. Earl STANHOPE said he was glad to hear the Noble Duke say so; but he believed it would be admitted that the falling off in the income of the year amounted to 1,300,000/. The Speech also said that there were no doubts respecting the increase of the prosperity of the country. Whatever might have been thought three weeks ago, he fancied those doubts must be now very much in creased; and if it unfortunately proved true, as lie had heard, although he hail no means of knowing with cer tainty, that the Revenue declined more and more every week, and particularly in the Excise, the great criterion of public consumption, he thought it would be admitted that the boasted prosperity of the Speech was not very likely to continue. Seeing this great distress affecting every branch of trade and manufacture, and even the security of the an nuitant affected by the diminution of the Revenue, were they to be told that no inquiry was to take place into the causes of that di-tress; or was it to be attributed to some epidemic disease, new in its existence, unknown in its n iture, affecting at one and the same time all the interests of the country, and yet wholly without remedy? It was said in the Speech that the distress was partial ; he denied it, and he did not think that he was called on to prove that there was no one district that did not feel that dis tress, before he could bring the House to form a jedginent of the necessity of an inquiry. The cause from which all this proceeded showed that it must increase rather than diminish ; and he thought that nothing could be so falla cious as to expect that the intolerable distress which now afflicted the country was to be removed of itself. The present was the most alarming period that had ever existed in this country ; he would not even except the period of the French Revolution. He contended, and he could prove, that the situation of the country was much more perilous now than it had been then. It was true that at that period securities had fallen in this country, rebellion had broken out in Ireland, and there existed a mutiny in the fleet; but, in spite of all this, Government had then had a security which they had not now—they bad had the security that the great mass of the people were happy, prosperous, and content._( Hear.)—The people were not then afflicted with th it distress which necessarily renovated discontent, and would soon convert it into actual disaffi.c- Lion. Never, then, was there a period when inquiry was more indispensably necessary, not only that the causes, which were not explained in the Speech, might be investi gated, but in order that the remedies most suited to the occasion might be applied. Their Lordships were bound to inquire for the satisfaction of the people, knowing that they would not and ought not to remain patient under such suffering, if no attempt was made to afford them relief. He should abstain from expressing any opinions of the remedies required, as it was for the House to inquire into that; and they were the more required to do this, because from the Speech of his Majesty, it was evident that there was no in tention on the part of the Government to propose any remedy. In fact he looked upon it as en admission upon the part of the Ministry that they hail no remedies to offer. It had been asked, what good could result from this inquiry? In answer to that, he would say that the goad must depend on the mode and spirit in which the inquiry was conducted. But, on the other hand, be would, in his turn, ask what were the evils which might ensue, if that inquiry were refused 2—(Hear, bean). — Would it not appear to the country that they had deserted their duty, that they had neglected its interests, and that they deserved—not the affection and confidence of the people—but their well-merited reproach, and even their hatred ? It was not his intention to move for a Select Comtiihtee, because whatever advantages might arise from that course, with respect to other subjects (as in a recent instance in which the affairs of India were to undergo in quiry) it appeared to him to be useless where immediate relief was required, and where it was not necessary to enter into any very ample detail. Besides, what was the course pursued with respect to a Select Committee? In the first place, the First Lord of the Treasury considered whom be should make members of it ; and among the numbers were always sure to be found some who never attended its meetings, and some official Lords, who, from the importauce of their situation, took upon themselves to do all in their power to interrupt the drift and tendency of time inquiry before them._. (A laugh.)—What followed then? Witnesses were sent for from all parts of the country, and examined day after day, de omnibus rebus, et quibusdam and at last a great mountain of evidence was produced-- not of grain, but of chaff—and which, from the irrelevant and unimportant matter it contained, few persons were patient enough to peruse--the whole ending with no re commendation as to any remedy to be applied. The Speech from the Throne said that due caution cught to be observed ; but how were their Lordships to be cautiaus if they did not enter into any inquiry ? An inquiry before a Committee of the whole House was what he wanted_ then they should be able to receive evidence on any facts that might be doubtful, and obtain practical evidence fro m those who were practically informed. But the great ad vantage that would be derived was the discussion of the re solutions on various portions of the subject ; those resolu tions would be discussed with that convenience of debate which formed the great recommendation of the course he proposed. If he were asked what specific remedy he pro posed to apply, his answer, both on that head as well as on that of causes, waQ, that if the inquiry should take place, the investigation of causes and the suggestion of re medies ought to emanate from that Committee; and if there were to be no inquiry, it would then be his duty to bring the subject before the House on separate occasions, and by a separate series of motions.--(Hear, hear.)—lt was because he felt that it was impossible to unite in one debate the discussion of all the causes and remedies that existed, which made him avoid it now. He was, how ever, prepared with a series of resolutions, which he trusted the Noble Duke would have no objection to discuss in the Committee ; and if this should be objected to, it was impossible not to come to the conclusion that the desire of Government was to obstruct the fair and full investigation of these matters. There were persons who spoke without thinking—(A laugh)—and they were apt to observe that such a proceeding would cause the encouragement of false hopes. It was his belief that the country had not that de gree of respect for the Parliament which would make it form either false or real hopes as to its conduct.—(A laugh.)—But, if it was dangerous to encourage false hopes, was it not still more dangerous to tell the country that there were no hopes at all for them ?__(Hear, hear.) — What would that be but to inflame them to despair?— ( Hear, hear.) —For himself he should not despond, unless from the result of a full examination it should appear (and he believed not only that was false, but impossible) that no relief whatever could be administered to the people of England. But it had been said that this disease of the body politic would work its own cure. He believed it; but it would be a radical cure, a cure such as would be most agreeable to those who cal!ed that evil radical which in its progress shook to the foundation, if net levelled to the dust, all the existing institutions of the country. It was also said that the country was in an advanced state. He concurred in this; but what was the state to which it was advancing? It appeared to him that it was rapidly advancing, owing to the pressure of distress, to a national bankruptcy. lie considers I, moreover, that it was ad vancing to a general disorganisation, and that at no distant period it would end in the total dissolution of the body po litic. Before he sat down he wished to call their Lord ships' attention to what was the real question before them. They were not now considering what were the causes or what were the remedies. What they were considering was shortly this—whether or not it was the duty of Par liament, in the present state of the country, to institute an inquiry into the evil? In bringing this matter before the House, whatever might be, its result, he felt that Ile had discharged his duty; he trusted that their Lordships would discharge theirs, and that they would remember that the time must come When they would have to answer it to their own consciences, and perhaps to their country. The Plot& Earl concluded by moving " That the House resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to take into consideration the internal state of the country." Viscount GODERICH—If I hail consulted my own ease, I should have abstained from the course which I am pursuing; but if, before the, House entered on the consi deration of this measure, I felt considerable doubt as to the propriety of concurring in the proposition of the Noble Earl, I must confess that the speech we have just heard has most materially confirmed that resolution —(hear, hear.)—l must confess, also, that I did not at all expect that the Noble Earl would have confined himself on this occasion to the description of a state of things which no one can attempt to deny—l mean the general distress which prevails in the country, and the duty which lies on ycur Lordships to do the best in your power to alleviate and relieve that distress.—(Hear, bear. )—I expected that he would have proceeded to state something as to the causes which, in his view, had produced that distress, and something of the notions which he entertains as to the practicability of its remely.—(Hear, hear.)—l do not say that it was incumbent en any individual to submit to your Lordships a specific remedy; but when the Noble Lord had proposed a course of proceeding so inconvenient in it self, and so inadequate to effect that discuss'on—superficial as the Noble Earl makes it out to be—l think that, before we consent to such an inquiry, we have a right to know what it is we are to inquire about. In the course of his speech, the Noble Earl has taken occasion to treat with contempt the principle of Select Committees, and has par ticularly noticed one which is now sitting. Earl STANHOPE—I beg pardon. I particularly said, that for such an inquiry as that into the affairs of India, a Select Committee might do. Viscount GODERICUL—Just so; but then the Noble Earl proceeded to describe the proceedings of such a Com mittee in a somewhat contemptuous style; and though he has complained that the conduct of this House is not such as to command the respect of the country, I must say that the Noble Earl's own description is not calculated to raise us in the estimation of the public. It, however, strikes me that it would be easy to describe the proceedings of a Committee of the whole House in terms as ludicrous as those which have fallen from the Noble Earl with respect to a Select Committee. It has not been my fortune, since I have been a Member of this House, to attend a Commit- tee of the whole House on any important subject; but do not the King's Ministers sit in a Committee of the whole House ? Are not the followers of Government on the same benches, then, which they always occupy ? In short, I have heard no objection against a Select Committee which may not be urged with ten times the force against the plan proposed by the Noble Earl.—(Hear.)—Surely, then, no imputation of want of feeling is to be brought against any one for objecting to the mode of proceeding proposed by the Noble Earl. According to my view of the case, it has one remarkable objection. He tells you that a Select Com mittee would go into minuteness of detail, but that a Com mittee of the whole House would only look at the general result. But if the people of England are to be satisfied with such a superficial inquiry, little do we understand either of their interests or their feelings. When the Noble Earl says that if we refuse this inquiry, the people of Eng land will conclude that we reject their prayer, and that we have shut our eyes, our ears, and our he a rts to th e ir su f- I , . ferings.—(Hear.)—l say that such is en unjust imputa tion ; and I shall endeavour, before I sit down, to show that although I dissent from many of the Noble Earl's doc trines on this subject, I do not believe that the Parliament is incapable of effecting a direct and immediate relief to the people, and of laying a foundation of great and perma nent good to the interests of the country. I admit that the distress of the country is general ; I admit that it is more severe in some respects than at any former period-- (Hear, hear)—and when I reflect on one circumstance to which the Noble Earl has alluded—the exemplary pa tience and resignation with which the people have borne this—l know not what feelings can have possession of a man's mind, if he does not feel it to be a duty—outweigh ing and transcendant to all others---to apply his best and most earnest energies to their relief. But there are con siderations out of which there may arise the possibility of applying some degree of alleviation to this. And first as to its causes. There are some of them, no doubt, beyond the reach, as the Speech from the Throne expressed it, of legislative interference.—(Hear, hear.)—This country, for the last twenty-five )ears, has been in a most singu larly artificial state; and indeed every country during the same period has been more or less in the same state. It was totally impossible, therefore, when that artificial state ceased, that all the interests of the country should not par take of the revulsion which was the consequence ; and I believe that this country, having been affected more than any other by those artificial circumstances, has felt this revulsion the most severely. One of the con sequences thus produced was, that the country no longer enjoyed those high prices, of which se many appeared to be enamoured, and which appears to be in great favour with the Noble Earl. But, besides this, there were two other causes—the state of the currency, and the state of the taxation ; and I cannot but think that it is possible for Parliament to apply—not perhaps an instantaneous— but at all events a material relief. First, then, as to the currency. Though I never entertained a doubt that the safety of the country depended on the restoration of the metallic currency, I never for a moment concealed flout myself that such a course would be accompanied with great pressure upon the people. I always looked upon it as choosing the lesser evil rather than the greater. But there are some circumstances connected with the currency which ought to lead us to conclude that it is not yet in the state in which it ought to be. 1 allude to the state of the currency, exclusive of the paper of the Bank of England. The Noble Duke, the other night, stated that the amount of the currency now in circulation was equal to what it had been at any former period. It may or may not be 60. But it appears to me to be difficult to come at any positive conclusion on the subject. But, at all events, I think that this matter does not dopend on the actual quantity of the circulation, but on a great variety of other considerations—(Hear, hear)—owing to a change in which the cireuhtion, which was at one time too little, may at another time be too much.—(Hear, hear.)—ln the . , statement on the currency made by the Noble Duke the other night, I think he counted one portion of it twice over ; that is to say, I think, when he mentioned twenty eight millions of gold, he did not apprehend that a cer tain portion of that must be in the coffars of the Bank of England. The Dule of WELLINGTON—My statement of the amount was independent of what was retained by the Bank. Viscount GODERICH—I ani glad to hear that, for I then have to give the Bank credit for a more judicious ma nagement than I otherwise think they would have deserved. But, setting aside that part of the question, I think that the currency is not only insufficient, but that it is unne cessarily low—(Hear, hear)—and that it might be made higher without the slightest danger to the country.— ( Hear, hear.)—l know no criterion by which we are so well able to judge of the proper amount of the circulation as by the state of our foreign exchanges. For the last eighteen months those foreign exchanges have been highly in favour of this country, and till the currency shall be below par, it appears to me that the currency cannot be too full. The maxim we should adopt on this head ought to be, to keep it, " without o'erflowing full," and I think that it is desirable to have in this country as large a supply as may be consistent with this principle. The view which I take of the distresses of the country leads rne, I confess, to the opinion that those distresses are in part to be attri buted to the imperfect system of banking which prevails out of the Metropolis. In my judgment, the issues of the country bankers are not regulated by those principles which are likely to prove advantai.Teous to themselves or beneficial to the country. When times of difficulty arrive, the issuers of the country paper immediately take alarm, and contract their circulation with a timidity unfounded and ruinous; and when the prospects of the commercial world undergo a change, they immediately begin to issue on a scale so extended, well deserving to be described as rash. If lam asked n-hat remedy I would recommend for this ev il, it is this—give increased facility to the esta blishment of banks. It must, of course, be in the re cdlection of your Lordships, that after the panic in ISG—a panic, the grounds of which were much exag gerated, and the effects not fairly represented—l say, my Lords, that after that panic, the two measures his Ma jesty's Government —with which I was then connected— proposed to Parliament were, first, an earlier suppression of the one pound notes than had been assigned by law ; the second was, an Act for facilitating the format'on of new Banks, under the regulations and the principles of Joint Stock Companies. Previous to that time the law had restricted the number of partners engaged in private banking concerns to six; but Lord Liverpool, who had well considered the subject, and who, above most men, was well qualified to form a sound judgment upon ques tions of that nature, and the decision at which he arrived was to recommend to your Lordships, as it was mine to recommend to the other House of Parliament, a Bill for facilitating the Establishment of Country Banks upon the principle of Joint Stock Companies. That measure was necessarily imperfect, and for the simple reason, that we could not induce the Bank of England to relax their privi leges to the degree that was necessary for giving a fair opportunity for trial to the plan proposed by Government at the period to which I advert. Since then we have been brought within three years of the period when the Bank Charter will expire. Now, though nothing can he further from my mind than pretending to say anything of the mode in which Parliament may deal with that sub ject, but this I iv ill that the liberty of saying, that it will be impossible that your Lordships will ever agree that the Charter of that Corporation be renewed unle,s they give greater facilities than heretofore to the forme- Lion of Joint Stuck Banking Companies.—( Hear, hear. ) It is utterly iampossible that the Bank of England should supply all the cut rency of the country ; and the proo: that they cannot do so is to be found in this, that t h ey have done all in their power for that purpose—they have esta blished Branch Banks, and done all else that they might, but without success. My persuasion is, that nothing will better supply the existing vacuum in the currency than the tstablishment of hanks upon the Scotch system. I do believe, that the extensive adoption of that system would have the effect of safely and instantly filling that vacuum. Such banks would proceed upon principles very different from those which governed the present cla.s of country banks. No one bank knows any thing of the manner in which other banks carry on business. They, again, know nothing of what is going. forward in the Bank of Eng land, and the Government remains in perfect ignorance of the operations of all. Hence as ise the most compli cated and monstrous difficulties. But of the sort of banks of which I speak, publicity would be their essence ; and, from the number of persons concerned in them, the fullest information would be possessed, and tiles directed, re specting the course and variations of foreign exchanges, and the vibrations of that golden chain upon which so much depends. A body, so formed, could easily discern the earliest approaches of danger ; and from them such contractions of their issues might be expected, as a sound and broad acquaintance with the subject might be expected to supply, corrected and canvassed by a numerous proprietary. At all event., whatever be adopted, the banking system must be put upon a footing safe and substantial, such as will, on the one hand, prevent over issues, and on the other guard against unwise and dangerous contraction. It was with views of this sort that the measures of 1826 were proposed ; but, as I have already said, they were rendered insufficient by the Directors of the Bank feeling it to be their duty to re fuse their assent to any relaxation of the privileges of which their Charter had put them in possession. No - withstanding that this refusal acted so prejudicially upon the establishment of Joint Stock Companies, seven or eight weme set up, and, I believe, at the present moment are doing good business; but the number is too small to be productive of any extensive benefit, and this disadvantage is obviously owing to time existence of those restrictions which the privileges of the Bank of England impose. In making this statement, I by no means wish to convey any censure upon the conduct of the Bank of England. I have had much communication with the Directors of that Corporation during the few years that I was connected with his Majesty's Government ; and the results of that communication, combined with other circumstances, have left the fullest conviction on my mind of the earnest desire which they entertain not only of discharging the obliga tions they owe to their constituents, but of doing all in their power to promote the public good, in discharge of the difficult, serious, delicate, and at times awful duties, which they are called on to perform. I should do them great injustice if I did not state, that even when I thought them in error, and looked upon their conduct as injudici ,us, I still saw most palpably manifested a disposition, an earnest desire to do justice to the other proprietors and the public. The next subject to which I desire to direct your Lordships' attention, is that of taxation. It will be remembered that at no time have I joined in those indiscreet attacks which from time to time have been made upon the King's Government to reduce tax ation. Perhaps it will be said, and not unnaturally, that the situation which I held for some years rendered me the least likely of all men to join in those attacks; indeed it was my duty for some years to resist them ; but I think that resistance was not carried beyond the proper limit. During a short period of my connection with Government, it was my fortune, as its organ in the other House, to pro pose the repeal of 9,000,0001. of taxes ; and now I will call your Lordships' attention to the practical effect of that reduction. If the consumption of the taxed commodities bad remained the same, the Revenue of the country would have been reduced to the amount of 9 000,0001. What, however, was the fact ? The accounts of 1827 showed that there was a loss ofonly 3,000,000/. and the succeding year was only 2,000,0001. below the income of 1827. I need scarcely then, my Lords, praise the wisdom of those reduc tions ; the more especially when I state the fact that the Re venue did not suffer to the extent of the reductions—nay, that the loss to the public income bore no proportion to the relief given from taxation. It was all along stated that there would be a certain loss, and it was foreseen that that loss would not equal reduction; but there Were few be yond those by whom the measure was proposed who anti cipated so large a reduction with so small a diminution of income. To this I have to add, that in some branches of the public revenue, so far from lowered duties producing diminished receipts, the direct reverse was the effect pro duced—increased income followed upon reduced imports. I allude ,particularly to the alteration of duties affecting Scotch and Irish spirits. When those alterations were first proposed, they were immediately objected to on the ground that the people would then have increased facilities of indulging in intemperance—that they might drink in the streets ad libitum—and that the change, though a pecuniary relief, would be a moral injury; facts, however, falsified this prediction. The parties who made it over looked the fact that the change did not make legal spirits one whit more accessible than illicit spirits had previously been. On reference to returns, your Lordships will see that if consumption had remained the same, the loss to time revenue would have been 800,0001. But not only was there nn loss to the revenue, but it was actually found to exceed former years, though the reduction of duty was as much as 50 per cent. Thus was there gain without loss —pecuniary advantage without any corresponding sacri fice. Upon such data as this, then, I might say to your Lordships, if you could spare 1,000,000/. of the public in come, you might repeal 9,000,000/. of the taxes. From the papers presented to the other House of Parliament for 1828, after making the necessary deductions front both sides—from the one the reduction effected by means of the contract with the Bank of England for the pay ment of half-pay and pensions; and from the other side— the side of payments—the arrangement made with the trustees of those annuities, we perceive that the balance is 3,231,000/. ; that in 1829 it was 1,711,0001., making a total of 4,942,0001 The average of those two years being 2,471,000/. ; and taking that average of 2,471,000/. as a fair criterion of the present year, we may assume for 1830 a balance of at least 2,470,000/. Now I think the circumstances of the country require that a vigorous ad vance should be made by the Government in reducing the taxes. In saying this, however, I beg to be understood as not undervaluing the reductions which have been made. I think those reductions are worth a great deal. The Estimates have been reduced 1,300,000/. ; now if we add to this the estimated average reduction of 2,470,0001., it gives us in round numbers a sum of 3,700,0001. If lam asked say, first,what I should I there erear e three modes recommend to i be done n in which it i l t n h ay that b u e s th r, i ai s. posed of—fat, That surplus of 3,700,000/. may be ap plied to the reduction of the public debt-2d, It inay be applied solely to reduce taxation-3d, It may be applied in a ntianner that shall form a combination of both modes. The last of these is that which I should think it advisable in Parliament to adopt. While I was connected with his Majesty's Government there was at one time a sur plus of 7,000,000/, of that sum 2,000,0001. were applied to the reduction of taxation, and 5,000,0001. to the liquidation of debt. lam aware that debt and taxation cannot now be interfered with in any degree approximating to the same proportions; but I think that a reduction of taxes might be effected to the extent of 1,700,0001., leaving 2,000,000/. as a surplus to guard against contingencies, and to save the Government from the risk of being obliged to borrow money in time of peace —(Hear, hear, hear, from the Duke of Richmond, and one or two other Peers)—but I conceive that an esti mated surplus of 2,000,0001. will prove quite sufficient to prevent any necessity of going in debt. I should certainly be the last man in your Lordships' House to recommend so large a reduction of taxation, did I not believe that the situation of the country made it a ditty in his Majesty's Ministers to attempt that reduction. When I consider the various ways in which the taxes operate, I sin induced to consider that I do no more than discharge an imperative duty in calling your Lordships' attention to some of the various ways in which taxation operate. It diminishes the actual amount which a consumer can afford to enjoy of the several articles taxed. In manufacture it diminishes the quantity of capital, skill, and industry which can be applied to the many branches on which it directly ope rat, s, to say nothing of the encouragement which it affords to illicit practices. There is one most absurd and mis chievous tax, of which I earnestly desire to see the repeal I mean the tax uponhops. There is no produce of the soil so much affected by the variations of the weather as hops. One year the duty on them may be as high as 400,000/.—the next it may suddenly drop down to 40,0001. It is for that and other reasons the most unfit object of taxation that can easily lie conceived. Who can point oat in our system anything more objectionable than bringing an excise officer into a garden? I find.that the average amount of the tax on hops is 250,0001. ; the repeal of that would give a positive and direct relief to a part of the country on which it peculiarly presses, and which suffers severely from the present dis tress. The hop fluty, too, is so local awl limited in its operation, that its severity is felt with increased force. The duties on printed cottons are very heavy, press most unequally, and yield a revenue the cellection of which is extremely expensive. Ireland is not affeited by them--- they press solely on England --and this consideration is of much imporanee, seeing that Ireland is exempt front 12,000,000/. of the duties which press upon England. Thee, sidee this, the duties on printed cottons are levied by Ercise afficers with all the cumbrous machinery of the Excite, and with all the oaths by which their col lection is usually ateended. The average amount of this duty is about 2,000,000/., of which 1,500,000/. or 1.600,000/. is annually paid back on exportation: thus the whole of these curnbrous and troublesome operations are gene through for the sake of 400,0001., for that is the averaue amount received by the Exchequer out of the 2 000,0001. levied. I know that there arc those in this House, as there are out of it, who have no very friendly feeling towards the cotton trade, and who regard it as a moestrous evil, preying upon the vitals of the nation. But the gi ant system has been created, and if not supported in full health awl vigour, will consume the resources of the state, amt, perhaps, ultimately bring it to the brink of ruin. As it stands et present, however, it is the staple article of our m inufactures, diffusing wealth among all classes ; our duty therefore is, not to allow the continu ance ef any tax which interferes with its prosperity, ripe cially when that tax is so unproductive in amount and PO expensive in collectioe. There is another tax to which I hall now advert--I mean the tax upon leather. Cer tainly that tax is not very large in amount as compared with the value of the ar:iele taxed—it is only three-half pence a pound upon the leather, while the value of that leather is not above 15s. or 16s. a pound. But the na ture of the trade causes great inconvenience to arise from this impost. No one can form any idea of the inconve niences thus arising who does not make himself practically acquainted with the details. He who is a tanner cannot become a currier—he must - carry on his business in a par ticular way. He must keep his hides a certain time in the vat —so long, and no longer—he must try no experi ment—he must disregard all the discoveries of modern science—chemistry becomes of no value to him. He must go on in the same beaten routine—improvement is shut out from his trade and endless vexations imposed upon it for the sake of a paltry tax, from which the revenue derives but little advantage. But repeal it, and you serve every class of the community as consumers; you relieve the agricultural class in particular, as producers of the article taxed. Leather, hops, and printed cottons would be somewhat upwards of a million. The removal of the tax on sea-borne coals (which we understood the Noble Lord to fix at 600,000/.) would also be a great public beneAt. I should also recommend a modification of the duties on beer, so as to give encouragement to the production and consumption of strong beer. The effect of the present system is to render the operations of the Excise, as respect' beer, extremely complicated, and most inconveniently to divide the business of brewing. Thus the man who brews strong beer cannot brew intermediate ale or small beer; and here, as every where else, comes in the whole cumbrous and objectionable machinery of oaths and penalties. The modification that I should re commend would have the effect of increasing the consump tion of malt, and affording relief to the agricultural times. In the particular cases, then, my Lords, to which I have adverted, I would say that relief can be af forded to the amount of 1,700,000/, and, as far as that sum goes, it would be a substantial and beneficial relief, and might be safely ventured on. I deplore, as deeply as any man, the public distress, but the conviction of that distress does not lead me to entertain those gloomy, miser able, and hopeless views which the Noble Lord endea voured to impress upon the House. All that the Noble Lord recommends is inquiry, and he would have us believe that there exists in the people a disposition to treat with contempt the deliberations of the Legislature, and to place confidence neither in its wisdom or good intentions. In that course I cannot bring myself to concur with him• There is one other point to which I have not yet adverted —I mean the expected proceedings with respect to the Charter of the East India Company. lam the furthest in the world from wishing to anticipate the opinion of Parliament upon this great question, but it cannot be settled any how without great advantage to the public; but in saying this, I say nothing as to the manner in which it may be settled. Again, the present condition of Ire land is such as entitles us to hope that we shall get through. our present difficulties with much more ease than through any former crisis of a similar description. There must be great present relief, and great ultimate good from the state of Ireland. When I state that the contribution of Ireland to the taxes of the country is only 3,800,000/.11 think it will be seen that there is much room for advance; and when I call your Lordships' attention to the change which has taken place in its condition, you will perceive that there is every prospect of improvement. Looking, then, upon this subject its I do, I feel bound to oppose the motion of the Noble Earl, in the full confidence that his Majesty's Government will apply their best energies to re move the existing evils. The Duke of IIICHMOND bad never beard a more convincing speech than that of the Noble Earl by whom the present motion was brought forward. He would not follow the Noble Viscount who had spoken last through all the minute details into which he had entered, but he would beg the House to remember that that Noble Vis count had admitted the general pressure of the distress, though the Speech from the Throne, on the first day of the Session, had distinctly stated that that distress wits partial. Taxation was a self-evident cause of the distress, and the distress was acknowledged to be universal ; yet the very Nettle Lord by whom that universality was ad mitted told Parliament, in 1825, when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, that the financial condition of the country was placed upon a rock, the foundation of which could not be undermined. He was very glad to find that the Noble Viscount had gained something by ex perience. The Government did not seam to have profited in the same manner ; for he believed that with regard to the question before the House, he really thought the Go vernment did not believe in the existence of general dis tress to the extent to which it was spread through the country. Several causes had been stated by different Noble Lords. First, it was stated that the rents of land were to o high—if upon inquiry that which he did not be lieve should appear to be true, namely, that high rents were one of the causes of the present distress, they might depend upon it that the Country Gentlemen would maintain their high character, and would cheerfully sacrifice their own interest, and be the first to show themselves ready to make endeavours to serve their country at their own cost. He did not wish to use strong expressions ; but as he had been in many parts of the country a witness of the distress, be might speak strongly without being liable to be supposed desirous of exciting a spirit ho,tile to the Government. He would assert that the condition of the people was most deplorable, and he would ask any man in that House whether their condition could remain as it was—and be would say as a Peer of Parliament that it ought not to remain as it was. —(Hear, hear.)—ln the part of the country with which he was more particularly acquainted, he could assert that men did not get remuneration for their labour as they ought. In that part of the country the labouring men were employed upon the roads at fourpence a day in some instances, and in others at threepence a day, and were he sides obliged to find their tools.—(Hear, hear.)—Were their Lordships prepared to say that such things could go on? That was the case in Sussex; but was it the case there alone? Was it not the same in Wiltshire and Dor. setshire, and. indeed throughout the agricultural-districts ? He did not believe that the distress of the labouring men was owing to the farmers, who were themselves nearly crushed by the difficulties of the times, by the taxes, by the W ru poor's-rates, and by the county-rates, all of whi c h th e y were hardly able to pay, and which were increasi ng ever y day by general causes and by legislative enactment s . Th ese men were loyal to their King, and obedient to the l aws , and they sought not to intimidate, but they asked f rom their Lordships that inquiry which it seemed to him th e y Thad an actual right to demand. Who was there th a t h a d not read, and having read, did not feel deeply, those which were seen every day in the newspapers-- that peasant a guiltless of any crime, were h arnesse d t o waggons, wit nessed, not only in Chester , but in the very coun ty in which the Noble Duke at the head of the Governm en t w as the principal land-owner. The distress, however, was not confined to the agricultural d istricts. The manuf ac t ur ing interest was in the same state. It was impossibl e t o re ad hear. r . and)— degrad ed Tiiscr cruel occurrence the labour u r as of brutes.—.(Hear, frequently hear, the newspapers without being convinced that the manufac turers were suffering to a very considerable extent. He would, however, give some proofs of the existence of that ;the fin' he was sure that if the Noble D u k e at t h e Government believed in its exi s t ence as h e d i d. tireat(l ofs s in e quiry now sought for would be at once granted.— His Grace here read some paragraphs front one or more newspapers, but did not give the name of the journal from which they were taken. The first stated that there had boot as agreement to blow out fifteen blast furnaces; but t t o h at re th v o en ug t h th te the further had comeinere increase eo f t o a this a resolution, n ufactt, re f in or wordh which there wins no market, it was much to be doubted whether the measure would relieve the distress, for what was to be- •