The Sun. — London, England, 1830-05-14 00:00:00

the Government had adopted, or intended to adopt, with 'respect to. the impeachment against General Darling, which had been transmitted by Mr. Went worth from the colony of New South Wales ? When he last made inquiry on the subject, he was informed that the impeachment had been referred to the consideration of the Law Officers of the Crown in consequence of some legal technicalities involved in it. He thought that a sufficient time had now elapsed for those officers to hare made their report on them. He therefore again asked what course the Government intended to adopt upon that im peachment ? The charges which it contained ought not to remain hanging over the head of that officer. If they were true, it was evident that he was unfit to hold the situation which he now filled; and if they were false, the sooner their falsehood was ex posed the more satisfactory it would be to General Darling. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, that as. the Colonial-office had referred that impeachment, and the immense mass of papers connected with it, to the consideration of himself and his Learned Col league the Solicitor-General, it would be perhaps better that he should answer the question of the Hon. Member than his Right Hon. Friend near him. The papers in question involved matters of grave charge against General Darling; and it would not become him to say that he had yet formed an opi nion upon them. If any blame was to be attached to any quarter for the delay which had taken place in considering them, he for one must take his share of it. But the fact was, that he had not yet been able to devote sufficient time to the consideration of these papers, in consequence of his other numerous and important public occupations, and of the un usually late and protracted debates which had oc curred every night during this Session. The case should have the best attention paid to it by himself and his Learned Colleague : it %las even now under consideration, but what their answer might be re garding it, he could not at that moment tell. The matter then dropped. The Earl of SURREY presented a petition from Worksop, in favour of Jewish emancipation. Mr. KEMP presented a similar petition from the Jews of Brighton. Mr. STANLEY presented a petition from Pres ton, against the East India monopoly. LABOURERS' WAGES BILL. On the motion of Mr. LITTLETON, this Bill was ordered to be re-committed on Monday, the 24th instant. THE MAURITIUS. A MEMBER asked the Right Hon. Secretary for the Colonies, whether the increased exportations of sugar from the Mauritius were to be accounted for by the fact, that a great quantity of Java sugar was imported into the Mauritius, and afterwards exported Sir G. MURRAY replied, that the increased ex ports from the Mauritius were owing to that colony being now placed on the same footing as the %Vest India islands, and also to the large addition made to the population by illegal importations of slaves. Mr. IRVING said, that the late Governor of the Mauritius had admitted that illegal importations of slaves had taken place at one period, but he proved to the satisfaction of every candid man, that he put a stop to the practice as soon as he had power to do so. [We believe the above to be a correct report of the conversation, but it was carried on in a tone which was scarcely audible.] Mr. FANE presented a petition from the publi cans of Wallingford, against the Beer Bill. . . Mr. WODEHOUSE presented four peetions of a similar nature, from different places in Norfolk. Mr. W. SMITH presented a petition from Nor wich, in favour of the Jews. Lord EBRINGTON presented a petition from Tavistock, praying for the abolition of the punish ment of death in cases of forgery. Mr. DICKINSON presented a petition of a si milar nature from a place in Somersetshire. Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from a parish in Cork, against the Vestry Act. The Hon. Member took occasion to observe, that the House felt no sympathy for the people of Ireland. An HON. MEMBER expressed his astonishment that the Member for Clare should have made such an unfounded assertion.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. O'CONNELL said, that he had made the assertion deliberately, and was ready to repeat it there or any where else. The rejection of his mo tion for the repeal of the Vestry Act was a proof that the assertion was true. _ _ Mr. SLANEY expressed a hope that the Mem ber for Clare had spoken in a moment of warmth. Sir J. NEWPORT said that the House con stantly evinced sympathy for the Irish people. ,Mr. O'CONNELL gave notice, that on the question of the House resolving itself into a Corn mitttee of Supply, he would move a resolution, " That the practice of examining Crown witnesses out of Court was derogatory to the dignity of the bar, and dangerous to the administration of justice." Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from the merchants, traders, householders, and others of the city of Dublin, against the assimilation of the duty on spirits, stamps, &c. in England. Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from three parishes in the county of Wexford, complain ing of the Vestry Bill, and calling for an inquiry into the tithe.system in Ireland. Mr. HARVEY presented a petition from Sir Josiah Barrington, Judge of the High Court of Ad miralty in Ireland, praying to be heard by Couns(l with respect to the charges preferred against him. The Hon, Member recommended that gentlemen, before they came down on Monday next to decide' on the resolutiona of the Committee, would read the statements contained in the petition. Sir J. NEWPORT observed that a full opportu nity bad been given to the petitioner to meet the charges before the Committee. The Committee had waited for several weeks to allow the petitioner to adduce his exculpatory proofs. If fresh delay took place, another year might elapse before that Court could be placed lu a state proper for the trans action of business. Mr. W. WYNN could confirm the statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman as to the facility which had been afforded by the Committee to the peti tioner. He was anxious that Hon. Gentlemen should carefully read the report of that Committee. After a few words from Mr. S. BOURNE and Mr. HARVEY, the petition was laid on the table. Sir T. ACLAND presented petitions from the parishes of Newport, Bishop Dorset, Devon, Newton tishell, and Newton-Abbotts, and from the inha bitants of Chudleigh, against the duty on coals car ried coastwise. CRIME OF FORGERY. Sir J. MACINTOSH presented a petition, Signed by"6o7 inhabitants of the city of Edinburgh, riving that in all cases of forgery the punishment a death should be abolished. The Right Hon. Gentleman observed, that the petition was signed by 16 clergymen of almost all the religious per suasions established or tolerated in Scotland, by the Professors of the University, by almost the whole of the bankers of the city of Edinburgh—a city whose principal trade was banking,—and al,o by the emir merit persons who were at the head of the bar of Scotland. Mr. H. R. LOTT assured the House that the in terests of the banking part of the clunnunity were not protected by the law as it now stood, and he was prepared, by every means in his power, to sup.- port the prayer of the petition. The LORD ADVOCATE observed, that the law, as it was administered in Scotland. operated to, prevent the growth of this offence. He regretted to say, that though crime generally had latterly mush increased in Scotland,that observation did not apply to forgery. Ihe execution of capital sentences in cases of forgery were of very 'are occurrence in Scotland. He regretted that the returns had not been brought down to a later date; but they were perfect for the ten years preceding 1826; and it ap peared from the return, that the number of persons committed for trial for forgery, and uttering forged notes, from 1815 to 1826, only amounted to 194. In the seven first years only seven persons had suf fered capitally, and in 1824, 1825, and 1826, only one or two. therefore he argued that the law did accomplish its object. If, however, Parliament should be of opinion that this penalty should be abolished, he certainly would not oppose the measure. Mr. BARING observed, that this was a most important-question, affecting, on the one side, the feelings of great numbers of the people, and the in terest of a very large and influential body of men on the other. He should like to know what those who called for the abolition of capital punishment in those cases nizant to press on the House in the way of a secondary punishment. That was, in his mind, the great difficulty of the case. Transportation would not be any punishment. That would be only sending a class of persons to another country where their superior education, their knowledge of figures and accounts, would enable them to distinguish themselves. If nothing but that could be proposed, it would really be no punishment at all, and it would assuredly open a wide door for the commission of crime. Imprisonment, with hard labour, and taking from the person condemned any hope of an early re mission of punishment, would perhaps deter more than the mere forfeiture of life, which persons in deep distress did not view as a dreadful calamity. lf, however, t:iis alteration were made in the criminal law, he thought it must be extended further ; for he could not see, if they removed the penalty of death from forgery, how they could retain it in cases of sheep-stealing for instance. Sir M. W. RIDLEY believed it generally hap pened that individuals going out of the country under sentence of transportation one day, were in a short time better off than they would have been had they remained at home. If transportation were the punishment finally fixed upon in cases of forgery, he trusted it might be rendered a punishment to be dreaded. Mr. BUXTON said, upon the simple principle of taking the most effectual measures for the pro tection of property, and not upon any vague idea of humanity, he was a friend to a mitigation of the present punishment. He had in his possession a petition, signed by four hundred bankers, belonging to two hundred firms, in which, on the principle of affording further and more efficacious protection to property, they asked for a remission of the punish ment of death in cases of forgery. Sir J. NEWPORT admitted that transportation was a most unsatisfactory punishment in cases of forgery, as not carrying with it, to the persons likely to commit that offence, those terrifying consequences which a law intended to prevent a crime of such magnitude should. In his opinion, no crime should be punished with death but murder, burglary, or offences involving a violation of property accom panied by violence to the person. As matters now stood, in nineteen cases out of twenty, the law by its severity defeated its own object. Sir T. BARING thought that forgery was an offence which might be suppressed more effectually thar at present, by what we were in the habit of considering inferior punishments—transportation, or solitary confinement for any great length of time. If so, the purposes of humanity would be attained, and crime checked. His Hon. Relative was mistaken in his opinion of the nature of transportation, which, however, he believed to have been formerly what was described. Formerly, transportation, as re garded the lower classes, was a change from misery to comparative enjoyment ; but now the case was different ; convicts were put to hard labour, and their condition rendered anything rather than too comfortable. He believed that nine persons out of ten who committed forgery escaped through the feel ings of the sufferers, and their reluctance to enforce a severe law. Lord J. RUSSELL agreed with the Hon. Ba• ronet, that at present transportation was a punish ment very different from what it once was, and thought it might be rendered a punishment of great severity. Certainly it was no sufficient excuse for a Government adopting the punishment of death, because it had neither succeeded nor tried to render transportation severe enough. He was satisfied that, under proper regulations, it would be a more efficacious punishment for forgery than the punish ment of death. The argument of the Hon. Mem ber,. for Callington, when► he contended that we ought not to remit the capital punishment for forgery, as we still retained the punishment of death for sheep-stealing, presented no serious obstacle to the desired change. We could remit the punish ment in both cases. He should support any mea sure that might be introduced with a view to miti gate the existing law. Mr. O'CONNELL supported the prayer of the petition, and stated that he had been long of opi nion that the punishment of death should be abo lished in all cases of offences unaccompanied by actual violence. He should give his decided support to any measure for the abolition of capital punish ments in cases of forgery. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, it had been stated that the severity of the law prevented prosecutions in cases of forgery; but how many persons might there not be who were deterred from the commission of crime by apprehensions of the severity of the punishment ? The effect might be injurious to property if the law were relaxed : on this point he admitted it might be difficult to form a precise opinion, but he thought the experiment would be hazardous in a country where such an amount of property was at stake. In his opinion, his Right Hon. Friend (Sir R. Peel) acted wisely in proposing gradually to remit the punishment of death, as applicable to one class of forgeries, thus giving us an Opportunity to conjecture what might be the effect of withdrawing capital punishments in other cases of the crime, by observing the conse quences of the mitigation in a single instance. This was the safest, and, he was sure, would ultimately prove the most humane course. Mr. HUME said, if it were considered desirable, with respect to one branch of forgeries, to mitigate our sanguinary law, he could not see why we should make trial of one portion, and leave the other un touched. The mischief of our law consisted in the uncertainty of punishment arising from the unusual severity of our code. He was of opinion that the punishment of death should not be inflicted except for murder or treason, which latter crime might in volve many deaths. The Right lion. Gentleman who had effected so many improvements in the cri minal law ought to carry the principle still further. Mr. LENNARD then rose and observed, that the Right Honourable Gentleman had only to look at the petitions proceeding from monied ir.- terests which had been presented in favour of the abolition of capital punishments in cases of forgery, in order to see how ill-grounded were his ap prehensions. He thought that the statement made by the Lord Advocate furnished an argument in favour of a mitigation of punishment. The Learned _Lord said, that during 12 years the crime of forgery had riot increased in Scotland ; and he also stated, that although the punishment of death in such cases nominally existed in that country, yet that it was, in point of fact and practice, abolished. Mr. M. A. TAYLOR spoke in favour of the abo lition of capital punishments in cases of forgery, and expressed a determination, whenever a motion shisuld be made to do away with them, to support it. Mr. WARBURTON said, that it was the cer tainty, not the severity of punishment, that prevented crime. Mr. FORBES said a few words, which did not reach the gallery. Mr. ROB IN SON said that the law did not afford protection to the banker and commercial man,—be cause the severity of it prevented prosecutions. For this reason, if for no other, the severity of the law ought to be mitigated. Mr. MARRYAT said, that the severity of the punishmept prevented prosecutions in nine cases out of ten. Mr. BROWNLOW had a petition to present from the bankers of Belfast, who expressed the same opinion.—The petition was then ordered to be printed. ir J. MACINTOSH postponed the sec ond reading o f se'nnight. the Registrar at Madras Bill till Friday Lord SANDON moved for a return of the num her of applications for the erection of churches or chapels which had been made during the last year to the Commissioners under the Church Build- ing Act. After a few words from the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, which were not audible, the motion was agreed to. Mr. SPOTTISWOODE had to present a peti tion respecting the present mode of interment in the metropolis. The petition was that of George Frederick Carden, barrister-at-law, of the Hon. So- ciety of the Inner Temple. The petitioner stated the number of interments annually in the metropolis to he not less than 40,000, and described the places of sepulture as offensive to public decency, and dan gerous to the health of the people. Any Hon. Member who had visited the butial-grounds of the metropolis would [Tree in the correctness of this description. The petitioner went on to state many other things respecting the system of interments now practised in the metropolis, which were deserving of attention, but with which he would not trouble the House, as he intended to move that the petition be printed. He would however mention, that since the petition had been put into his hands, other cases had been mentioned to him. The burial-grounds of a chapel in Fetter-lane, of St. Mary Abchurch, and of St. Giles's church, were all offensive and dangerous nuisances. With respect to the latter, he found that an able and intelligent officer of the House, Mr. Luke Hansard, had, in his evidence before the Select Vestries Committee, described the St. Giles's church-yard to have been a nuisance from time im. memorial, and shown that Pennant spoke of it as such. The petitioner prayed that a Cominittee should be appointed to inquire into the evils of the present system of interment within the metropolis, and to take into consideration the plan proposed by the petitioner, of establishing a general cemetery without the metropolis. For his own part, he was convinced of the necessity of some alteration, but he thought Committees of that House were more remarkable for blaming abuses than for remedying them. He should content himself for the present, with moving that the petition be printed, in order that all gentlemen might read it, and he should con sider what would he the best mode of proceeding. Lord LOWTHER agreed with the petitioner as to the impropriety of the present system. In St. Martin's church-yard, the only place over which he had any control, he had had catacombs dug under ground, and he hoped to see the example followed in other places. Mr. PitOTHEROE said it would have been better if the Noble Lord had removed the burial- place out of the metropolis altogether. Lord LOWTHER.—That would have been bet ter, certainly, but I had not power to do so. Mr. HUME said, that there ought to be an Act prohibiting all burials in the metropolis for the fu ture. Decency and the health of the inhabitants called for such a mea,,ure. The petition was then read, and ordered to be printed. Mr. BROWNLOW presented a petition from bankers of Belfast, praying that the punishment for forgery might be mitigated.—To lie on the table. CONDITION OF THE WORKING CLASSES. Mr. SLANEY, in bringing forward the motion of which he had given notice, felt it would be neces sary to trouble the House with considerable details. The humbler classes of society, he need hardly re mind the House, were divided into two different classes. First, the agricultural; and the condition of this class was different in the north and south, as he had shown on a former occasion. The other class consisted of those who were employed in mechanical occupations. He had always thought that the agricultural and manufacturing interests were insepatable,—that both of them rose and were depressed together. Let him, however, call the attention of the House to the increase which lad taken place in the numbFr of those employed in manufacturing and mechanical occupations, as compared with the agricultural class. In England, the former as compared with the latter were six to five in 1801; they were as eight to five in 1821; and, taking the increase of population to have pro ceeded in the same ratio, they were now as two to one. In Scotland the increase had been still more extraordinary. In that country, they were as five to six in 1801 ; as nine to six in 1821; and they were now as two to one. The increase in the gene ral population during the last 20 years had been 30 per cent; in the manufacturing population it had been 40 per cent.; in Manchester, Coventry, Li verpool, and Birmingham, the increase had been 50 per cent.; in Leeds, it had been 54 per cent.; its Glasgow, it had been 100 per cent. As this class was better off now than at the beginning of the century, it was evident that capital must have increased in the same proportion. Besides these facts, the improvements in machinery were to be taken into consideration. Great as was his sense of the services of the Noble Duke who had conducted the military operations of the country, still, if he were asked to name any one person to whom England was most indebted in bearing up against nearly all Europe, he should say that James Watt was that person.— (Hear.) —The suggestions of Watt in the use of steam had been productive of incalculable benefits to the country. In 1814 we had eleven steam vessels, and the number of tons was 542; in 1628, we had 338 steam-vessels, and the number of tons was 30,000. Thus, in the space of 14 years, the steam-vessels had increased thirty-fold in number, and sixty-fold in tonnage. Another fact connected with the manufacturers was, that a very large por tion of them were unrepresented in that House, and this gave them a strong claim on the attention of Parliament. He hoped, however, that the motion of which the Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) had given notice, might have the effect of giving them that desirable object. It was not the depression of trade, but the occasional fluctuations, to which ma nufacturers were exposed—fluctuations which at one time, by raising the price of their labour, led them to riot and extravagance, and at another, by greatly depressing it, led to want and to crime. It was at the present time more peculiarly necessary to consider the situation of the working persons en gaged in manufactures, for up to a very late period England enjoyed the monopoly of the world, kept up in part by the circumstances in which she was placed in her political relations towards the rest of Europe, hut also mainly upheld by those principles of freedom which experience had shown were so favourable to the extension of commerce. Eng land, however, no longer enjoyed this monopoly. Opposite to her shores were two great countries copying, in a great degree, her institutions, and imitating her manufactures. He did not mention 'this for the purpose of exciting any jealousy, but as a reason to show the importance of elevating the character of our manufacturers; for, in proportion as we did, we must tend to keep up that superiority which we had so long enjoyed. The Hon. Mem ber then • proceeded to point out the chief causes of fluctuations which were often felt so severely by the working classes. These, he observed, were more felt in the work carried on by hand-labour than in that done by steam-engines. In the latter, there were daily improvements in the machinery, which, on the whole, benefitted the community, but were a temporary evil to those whose labours were dispensed with. In the result, they found means of employment, by the additional stimulus given to the employment of capital; but, in the mean time, some resource should be provided for them, by which they might be prevented from coming upon the poor-rates for support. The number of hand-looms in 1820, was about 240,000, and was at present not greater; but in the same time the number of power-looms had increased from 14,000 to about 55,000, ea ch power-loom being equal to three hand-looms; so that in these was now business done equal to that which 165,000 hand-looms would have performed. He did not not urge this as an objection to power-looms, but merely to show that some provision should be made to guard against the effects of those fluctuations to which such improve ' merits must give rise. Another cause of fluctua tion was the change of fashions. In this respect there had been a great change from the use of wool- en to that of linen and cotton, and rom cotton to that of silk. After noticing the objections made by the manufacturers at Worcester to any opening in the trade in foreign gloves, the Hon. Member stated that after deducting the foreign importations, there had been an increase since 1826 (when the trade was opened) of 144,000 dozen pairs of gloves, and since 1820, an increase of 490,000 dozen pairs. He then noticed our exports in 1827 and 1828; which were, of cotton goods, 17,500,000 ; of woollen, 5,250,000; and of metal articles, 2,500,000; mak ing in the whole 25,250,000 of exports in those three branches of trade. The Hon. Member then went on to point out the policy ofgivingto the working classes some means of protecting themselves against those fluctuations towhich their respective trades were liable. It was impossible to guarantee fixed employment or fixed wages; but, supposing employment to exist, Parliament might give them the means of guarding against evils which were continually recurring. The plan which he would suggest would he to extend the operation of the principles of benefit societies. Those societies made provision for the contingencies of sickness and old age. He should propose a se lect committee to inquire how far the principles of mutual assistance might be extended, so as to make some provision for the contingencies of little or no employment. To show that the working classes, engaged in the principal branches of manufactures, had, within themselves, the means of making this provision, the Hon. Member took a view of the average rate of wages in the principal seats of those manufactures. Thus, in a circle of 30 miles diame ter, the centre of which was Manchester, there were, he observed, about 500,000 persons engaged in the cotton trade; of these, one-fifth received on the average 20s. per week, one-fifth 125., one-fifth consisting in the great part of women and children, received 75., and one-fifth, including young children, who received 2s. 6d. per week. These supported the remaining fifth, who were infirm or disabled from work. In the woollen trade there were about 20,000 persons engaged in Leeds and its vicinity. These were divided into three classes, the weavers, earning on an average 14s. per week; spinners and slubbers, at 21s. per week, and dressers, also earning 21s. per week, working for twelve hours, six days in the week. The women in this trade earned from 6s. to Bs. per week, and the children in proportion. In Birmingham the working classes earned on an average 125., 18s., and 245. per week ; the wages of the women varying from 10s. to Bs. and 6s. per week. Some of those classes were provident, and made savings of their wages, but the great majority were improvident, and when any fluctuation came, they were without any relief, but that which the poor's rates afforded. The same might be said of the persons engaged in iron works, who were about 66,000 in number, and who he regretted were as improvident as the others he had mentioned. Now to induce them to make some provision while em ployed, for the contingency of occasional non-em ployment, he would apply the principle of the act which had been passed last year respecting benefit societies, and the committee for which he should move would have to inquire how far that was prac ticable. It might be objected that such a fund as would be necessary for this purpose might lead to combination amongst the working classes ; but he must contend, that in proportion as the condition of the working classes was improved, so would be their disinclination to combine against their employers. The repeal of the combination laws would also much lessen any disposition to do so. After ob serving that the present state of the corn laws would prevent those very fluctuations in the price of food which had so often distressed manufacturers, and would therefore lessen the chance of too many being thrown at once upon the funds for relief when out of work, the Hon. Member proceeded to point out the beneficial regulations adopted in some trades, particularly amongst the journeymen tailors, by which they obtained a certain allowance when out of employment. There were, amongst these regu lations, some things which would well deserve the investigation of the Committee, with the view of ascertaining how far the principle might be extend ed. In some instances, when there was a depres sion in the trade, the quantity of work given to each man was diminished, but the same price given for what was done. By this means the market was not glutted, and when the temporary pressure was passed the men found full employment. In other cases, the quantity of the work was increased, but at a reduced price; so that a man, to earn the same wages as before, must work, say 16 hours instead of 12; and the effect of this was to overstock the market, and increase the depression of that branch of manufactures. In Wolverhampton, this system was carried to such a height, and the quantity of ar ticles manufactured so much beyond the demand, that he had seen a strong and well-finished curry comb sold for one penny. He had communicated on the subject with several principals connected with the manufacturing interest,—with Mr. Kirkman Finlay amongst others,—all of whom agreed in opi nion, that workmen became tractable arid obedient in proportion as their comforts were increased, and their general condition was improved. The Hon. Member, after thanking the House for the indul gence which he had experienced, concluded by moving, " That a Select Committee be appointed for considering the means to lessen the evils arising from the fluctuation of employment in manufactur ing districts, and to improve the health and comfort of the working classes dwelling in large towns." Mr. MARSHALL seconded the motion. Mr. CRIPPS had no wish to throw cold water on the Hon. Member's proposition, but he did desire to guard the House from the erroneous notion that it was likely to produce a benefit which he greatly feared it could not realise. It was impossible that workmen could now contribute, out of their low wee-es, sufficient materially to assist their brethren who were at present out of employment. The case of the southern counties somewhat differed from that of the rest; but the advantage to be derived from any associatio n that raised contributions of twopence and threepence would be a mere trifle compared with the wants of thousands, who might daily require assistance. Mr. ROBINSON expressed his disbelief of the correctness of the sources from whence the Hon. Member had derived his information as to the im portation and consumption of gloves. Whatever might be the policy of the system, there was cer tainly but little of fair play in bringing the foreigner in competition with the home manufacturer. Price, not quantity, was the proper criterion of prosperity. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER consented to the motion more for the purpose of procuring the information which might be obtained by a Committee, than with any expectation of ac complishing the object which the Hon. Gentleman professed to have in view. Such an extension of the principle of benefit societies as the Honourable Member proposed, he conceived to be impossible. Under the system recommended, it was not impro bable that parties would subscribe first, and. with draw their subscription at a period of depression. Where the contingency of sickness was the subject to which the funds of the society were to be di rected, it was sufficiently evi•lent that but a small portion would be demanded at a time. According to the Hon. Member's system, however, the calcu lation would lead to a conclusion directly the re verse. If a number of different manufacturers were concentrated in one spot, he admitted that such a plan would lie more practicable, as in that case the superfluity of one manufacturer might supply the deficiency of the other. But the lion. Member seemed to overlook a difficulty of a different kind, which would nevertheless be found materially to embarrass the operations of his societies. How were they to be enabled to ascertain whether the distress of applicants for relief had proceeded from fluctuation ? How should they discriminate between the industrious and the indolent ? Might not their credulity be abused, and their funds encumbered by the idle and profligate, whose fraudulent represen tations it would be difficult to controvert? On the whole, he should not oppose the motion, being de. sirous of information, but he feared that the plan, when developed, would not be found practically con- NN... • _ ducive of benefit to 'those for whose advantage it was intended. _ Sir G. PHILIPS said he was not opposed to the Hon. Member's proposition, but the plan of savings' banks appeared to him better calculated to benefit the lower classes of society. Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN observed, that it would be a mere delusion to appoint this committee, which could be productive of no good results, after they had already refused to inquire into the distresses of the people. Mr. SLANGY stated, in reply, that he could not believe the proposed committee would be altogether useless, when he reflected that similar objections had been made to benefit societies, which were now known to enrol a million of members, and also to savings' banks, in which at present not less than 16,000,000/. sterling were invested. The motion was then agreed to, and a Committee appointed. COAL DUTY IN IRELAND. Mr. S. RICE presented a petition from St. Mary's parish, Dublin, praying for a repeal of the coal duty ; after which the Hon. Member proceeded to bring forward a motion in compliance with the prayer of the petitioners. The question, he con tended, involved the interests of the coal districts in England, and therefore could not be considered as affecting Ireland alone. The amount of the tax was but inconsiderable, as it did not exceed 50,0001. or 60,0001. per annum. But the inconvenience in curred by the people was not to be estimated by the sum paid into the Exchequer. If free trade should be thrown open between the two countries, there could be little doubt that the revenue would derive an augmentation in another way from the in creased consumption of coal, owing to the progress of manufacturing industry in Ireland. This tax pressed upon the landed proprietors of Ireland as well as upon its manufacturing industry. But the repeal of the tax was not only called for upon the ground of general policy, but also on peculiar grounds. The tax was con trary to the stipulations of the Act of Union. lie should, however, wave this argument, and rest the question upon the ground of general policy. In Scotland, which was a coal-producing country, no duty was imposed upon coals imported ; whereas in Ireland, which was not a coal country, a tax was levied upon coals. The repeal of this tax would be of essential service to Dublin. It was calculated, that there were 7,000 persons in that city wanting employment. He would show how the repeal of this tax would act upon this part of the population. One of the first woollen manufacturers in that city had informed him that if the coal tax were repealed, he could increase his establishment so as to employ double the number of men he now employed. Now tho woollen trade in Dublin employed 1,000 men, equal to one-seventh of the unemployed populatibn. If the woollen trade could be thus acted on, would not the same cause act upon the other manufactures, which had, in fact, become almost annihilated by the high price of coals ? The difference in the price of this article in Ireland and Scotland operated as a premium to induce capitalists to remove from the former to the latter, contrary to the policy we were intent upon. The amount of duty collected on coals in Ireland was 73,0001. Taking that and the leather tax together, the House would recollect that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had repealed three millions of taxes in England, and if he repealed these two taxes, he would remove only 100,0001. from the burdens of Ireland.—(Hear.) This was a trifling sum, and the Right Hon. Gentleman, by introducing economy into the Irish establishments, might do more than find an equivalent for the coal tax: On these grounds he moved " That the House do re solve itself into a committee to consider the Acts imposing a duty on coals in Ireland, with a view of repealing the same." Lord KILLEEN* seconded the motion in a short speech ; but the Noble Lord spoke in so low a tone that we could only collect that he heartily concurred in the sentiments of the Hon. Mover. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER felt himself obliged to oppose the motion. With respect to the argument of the Hon. Gentleman against the unequal proportion of taxation which had been reduced in Ireland, that circumstance arose from the peculiar manner in which Ireland had been fostered, so that there was scarcely a tax in that country which could be further redueed con sistently with the interests of the empire. Abstract edly considered, the coal-tax did certainly affect the industry of the country. But it should be con— sidered that the tax on Ireland was Is. 10d. per ton, while in England it was 4s. Surely, if a reduction of taxation on this article was called for, relief should be applied to that country which bore the largest part of the borden.—(Hear.)--But his Hon. Friend argued that Ireland laboured under a disad vantage as compared with Scotland, which paid no duty upon coals. He (the Chancellor) admitted the fact, but what claim would not England have, if both Ireland and Scotland were exempt from the duty ?—(Hear.)—The Hon. Member must look to the whole question of the duties on sea-borne coals; and when it was considered that these duties pro duced a revenue of 800,0001., he would put it to the House whether, after the relief which the country had already experienced, it could, with a due regard to those to whom we had contracted an obligation, reduce so large a portion of taxation, even if the arguments in favour of it were more _cogent than his Hon. Friend's. His Hon. Friend had said that a reduction of taxes in Ireland was a reduction of the burdens of England. He admitted this. He contended also for the converse, —namely, that a reduction of taxation in England was a relief to Ireland. With respect to the recommendation of economy by his Hon. Friend, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) begged to remind the House, that when he brought forward the budget, he had expressly taken credit for the resources which had been, and which were to be, obtained from a reduc tion of our establishments. Thinking that the con tinuance of this tax was no violation of the Act Union, he had no hesitation in giving his oppositioi to the motion of his Hon. Friend. General GASCOYNE supported the motion. Mr. WARBURTON was also favourable to the motion. Mr. O'CONNELL followed on the same side. Mr. BARING gladly supported the motion. Mr. G. MOORE suggested to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that if he determined to continue the tax as a general tax, he would modify it - by exempt ing from it all coals used in manufactories in Ireland. Mr. E. WODEHOUSE said, that this tax could not be defended in argument by any man whatever. Lord MILTON opposed the motion. Mr. P. THOMSON opposed the motion, be cause its object was a partial one. Lord CASTLEREAGH opposed the motion, as we understood. Sir T. D. ACLAND supported the motion. Lord ALTH OR P considered every measure which benefitted Ireland benefitted the empire at large, for the interest of Ireland arid England was, in fact, the same. Sir C. COLE supported the motion. Mr. RICE said a few words in reply, after which the House divided, when the numbers appeared—, For the motion l2O Against it lB7 Majority —67 HACKNEY COACHES Sir J. NITROTTESLEY rose to move for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the duties, salaries, and emoluments of hackney coach commissioners, and the present state of public carriages in the metropolis. The Hon. Baronet prefaced his motion by stating the inconvenience which arose from the present system, and the ne cessity which existed for some change for the public advantage ; he conceived that that necessity must be apparent in every person who had an opportunity of observing the present state of things. The Hon. Baronet concluded by moving—" That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the duties, salaries, and emoluments of the Commissioners for the regulation of hackney-coaches within the Bills of Mortality, and into the state of the public carriages K~~ within the said bills, arid to report the evidence, and their opinion thereon, to the House ; and also to in- . quire into the state of the law affecting the same, and to report their opinion thereon to the House." The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not rise to give any opposition whatever to the. motion of the Hon. Baronet—on the contrary, he was extremely glad that the Hon. Baronet had moved for this Committee. This was a question which, however trifling it might appear, had occupied for a considerable period much of the attention of the de partment over which he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) presided, and the only difficulty which appeared opposed to that change which seemed so desirable, consisted in the adjustment of those claims for compensation which individuals filling public situations of this description might set up with regard to what they might consider exclusive rights and exclusive emoluments. These were matters which could be nu where so satisfactorily adjusted as in a Select Committee of that House. He should not, at this late hour, go further into the question.— He should content himself with saying, that he most readily acquiesced in the motion of the Honourable Baronet, and he had no doubt that the result of that Committee's labours would be, to place the accommodation afforded by public carriages on a better footing than it was at present, and one more calculated for the public advantage. It was his (the Chancellor of the Ex chequer's) intention to effect great convenience for the public in this respect, by a provision in the 8.1 l • which he should shortly lay before the House for the" amendment of the Stamp Acts, relating to the re-; gulation of stage•coaches.—(Hear.) As the law at present stood, with regard to hackney-coaches, stage-coaches were prevented from taking up paE sengers upon what were called " the stones," and no stage-coach could ply for passengers in London. — Now he proposed to remove that impediment.-- (Hear, hear.) He was of opinion that the greatest possible convenience wordil arise to the public by permitting those coaches to ply regularly from one part of this metropolis to the other—for, by that. means, the middle and poorer classes would be • enabled to travel cheaply and expeditiously from one end of London to the other.—(Hear, hear.) He harrhad an interview (as we understood the Right Hon. Gentleman to say) with the parties whose interests were principally involved in the coaches which were, under the existing law, allowed to ply in London, and no difficulty had been started by them to this proposition. He was satisfied that the arrangement would be beneficial to the public, but that it would not be injurious to the owners of those coaches; for the class of persons who would travel in the stage-coaches when they should be suffered to ply in town, were not those who would at any time take a hackney-coach if the law remained as it was at present. The motion was then put and agreed to, and the following Committee appointed :—" Sir John Wrot. tesley, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Lord John Russell, Mr. Powlett Thomson, Mr. George Dan• son, Mr. Denison, Sir Robert Wilson, Sir Edward Knatchbull, Mr. Alderman Thompson, Mr. Hob house, Mr. Charles Wood, Mr. William Peel, Mr. Nicolson Calvert, Mr. Bramston, Mr. Hume, Sir Thomas Fremantle, Mr. Robert Gordon, Mr. Ridley Colborne, Mr. George Lamb, Lord Viscount Low ther, Mr. Warburton, Mr. Samuel Whitbread, Lord Viscount Howick, Mr. Maberly." APPRENTICES. Mr. FYLER, after enumerating the evils arising from the present system of half-pay apprentices in the manufacturing districts, and after quoting the reports of two Select Committees in corroboration ' of his opinions on the subject, moved for leave to bring in a Bill to do away with the system of half pay apprentices. The motion as it originally stood was to, "do away with half-pay apprentices," and the reading of it excited much laughter. On being amended . by the Hon. Member, it was put and unanimonsly agreed to. Mr. WODEHOUSE postponed his motion re specting the duty on coals till this evening. Sir J. GRAHAM said, that at that late hour he felt it absolutely necessary to postpone his motion respecting the salaries, &c. of the Members of the Privy Council till this day, when, as his Hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen had withdrawn his motion, he should move it as an amendment upon the Order of the Day for going into a Commit tee of Supply. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the Ex- CHEQUER, the Committee on the sale of Beer Bill was postponed till Monday next. The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at One o'clock. LIST OF THE MINORITY OF TWELVE WHO VOTED FOR MR. O'CONNELL'S MOTION, " That there be laid before the House Copies of the several de positions or informations sworn by Patrick Daly, one of the witnes>es examined at the Special Commission held in the County of Cork in the month of October, HQ% relating in any wise to the conspiracies to murder, of which the prisoners given in charge at that Commission, or any of them, stood accused." Blandford, Marquis Harvey, D. W. Cave, R. 0. Heathcote, E. Cholmeley, M. Hobhouse, J. C. French, Arthur Jephson, C. D. Grattan, James Tomes, J. ERRATA. •Th e nan Ponsonby were enter respecting the Lord did not vote. les of Lord Clements red in the minority on Lieutenant of Irelan Warburton, H. Wood, John TELLERS. Hume, Joseph O'Connell, 1). and the Hon. Wm. Mr. Hume's motion, Id, by mistake —they It is said that a convention has been,signed in London by the Brazilian Minister and the Envoy of the young Queen of PORTUGAL, which stipulates that Brazil shall continue to pay to the Regency of Portugal the amount of the dividends of the Portuguese loan negotiated in Lon don, and also the balance of the indemnity stipulated for under the treaty of separation. This balance amounts to between 300,0001. and 400,000/. ; but it is further stated that a conditional contract for a loan has been entered into on the part of Brazil for the sum of 2,000,0001., which, however, is to become a debt of Portugal in the event of the young QUEEN gaining possession of the throne of that country. These arrangements, we are informed, have been concluded by M. de MATHOS on the part of Brazil, and MM. MASCARENHAS and LIMA, on the part of the Regency. A gentleman has been despatched to Rio with the convention and the contract for the loan, in order to obtain, if possible, their ratification from the Brazilian Chambers.— Times. There is a classical custom observed, time out of mind, at Oakley, in Surrey, of planting rose trees on the grave, especially of the young men and maidens, who have lost their lovers; so that this church-yard is now full of them. It is the more remarkable, since it was an ciently used both among the Greeks and Roman; who were so very religious in it that we find it often annexed as a codicil to their wills, by which they ordered roses to be yearly strewed and planted on their grave. Old AWA CS EON, speaking of it, says that it cloth protect the dead. On Sunday night last, one of the most tre mendous events happened in Sunderland harbour that ever occurred there. About a quarter past eig_ltt o'clock the Durham packet, which was lying loaded ,ready for sea, broke from her moorings in consequence of the heavy fresh which was running rapidly down the harbour. The ship was hurried with dreadful impetuosity against the next tier of ships, which were at once driven from their moorings; and in a few minutes every ship which was afloat on the south side of the Wear, below the Ferry boat landing tier, was drifting towards the sea. The ves sels, however, stopped near 1 - Lircleastle slip, and formed a during which time the water rose several feet. At last a sloop situated about the centre of the fleet was forced out by the extreme violence of the flood, and immediately the c omplete dam across the river for nearly half an hour, whole of the ships drifted to the entrance of the harbour, where they grounded and stopped, the tide being out. The damage done was immense. It is calculated that at least from 65 to '75 ships have suffered more or less. The acene is truly heart-rending: ships dismasted, bowsprits lost, vessels in a state of complete wreck, and six or eight sunk, present a distressing appearance. The number of k e els sunk in the harbour, and driven out to sea and lost, h. , not been accurately ascertained, but it is very great. LorJ LONDONDERRY', floating drop is lying sunk in the river. On the north side of the river a ship which was beii g built on, we believe, Mr. Sroay's yard, has been wash , ti off the stocks, or rather her supporters have been washed from under her. The damage; however, with this ex ception, was entirely amongst the ships lying on the south side of the river. We are serry to add that toe master of the Wyndham unfortunately got both his legs broke in the midst of the confusion on Sunday night.- - Tyne Mercury. Rack ---"'.----- PAIGE . . . Id si ,epitta, . Gentl, ' Muck .t yea' Ca 1 II a t i a C n e Cent. 1 4 ) .t. R e d . ~.. ,Per Cent. A uttts, 4 , , uk L. 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