The Sun. — London, England, 1830-04-28 00:00:00

to pass joreepective law, enacting "that no clergyman who should be ordained after a certain day, should be pet mitted te Itold a plurality of livings, unless they were so contiguou as to enable him, whilst residing upon one, to perform in person the dati,s of all. To any remedial measure which should compel the residence of the clergyman who received the prefits of the living, no one could be more friendly than himself. Th e res id ence o f t h e ineumbent was th e greatest blessing that could happen to a parish. He had nen the advantage of it over and over again in England ; and, think God, it had latterly been exemplified in Ireland also. By the various measures which the Right Hon. Gentlemanopposite had introduced into and tiareleti through Parliament since he had been in settee, he bad effected— and what was more, he had beett the . first person who had effected—a great reformation in the church of Ireland. So far as related to the introduction of me cures beneficial to that church, the Right Hon. Gentleman haal accom plished a great and permanent good: there was a time— it was in vain to deny it—its which every appointment in the church of Ireland was regularly bought and sold. At the Union, a number of appointments to offices in the Church were made, without regthl to anything except the interest which could be etecured by them. Of late years that system bad beets departed from, and the duties of the church had, in consequence, been verfoernnd more de storously sad more beneficially than berme, When be saw the church thus ameliorating, not, indeed, so rapidly as he could wish, but still at any rate progressing, he could not help hesitating before he gave his consent to arty strong measure which, under the name of revision, might effect a revolution in its constitution and discipline. Lord OXMANTOWN had no doubt that the learned eivilian had correctly explained the law to him : but it the law respecting the licensing of curates were such he had stated, it was at present unknown in Ireland. Ile was himself acquainted with a case, in which a clergyman heel faithfully performed the duties of a curate for five years. During the whole of that time he never could mimed in obtaining a licence from his rector, and at the end of it he was dismissed without any cause being as signed for his dismissal. After a few observations from General HART, which were inaudible in the gallery, the petition was read. On the question that it be laid on the table, Mr. BARING said, that from the observations which had just fallen from his Hon. and Learned Friend, be was afraid that he had unintentionally used expressions which reflected on the conduct of the Rev. Prelates, where names he had mentioned in his former speech. He assured the House that if he had used such expressions, it was most unintentionally. No one could entertain a higher re spect than he did for the Ilishop of Hereford ; anti he fully agreed with his Hon. and Learned Friend, that so long as he had health and strength, no Prelate woe more anxious to perform his duty to the congregations committed to his charge. The usefulness of the Bishop of Llandaff 's la bouts tilde that any duty which that Prelate undvrtook could in any respeet be defective. In mentioning the names of those illustrious Prelates, he hail no other object than to give them that maintenente from their respective sees which they ought to have for the support of their rank in the church and is society. He believed that at no fore mer period was the Rev. Bench more respectably filled than at present. Still he thought it a great Inconvenience that one Bishop should have only 1,600/, a-year, whilst another had 32,0001. Such an arrangement did not con tribute to the preservation of their independence. Great as the information of his Hon. and Learned Friend was on subjects, he must say that in hie opinion his Hon, and Learned Friend strangely under-rated the incomes of the sees of the church. He had judged of the amount from their ordinary income, and had not taken into his consi deration the fines paid to them for renewal of leases, which were considered as part of their extraordinary in come, though sonic fell in every year. He knew that some sees received in this manner mere than three times the amount of their ordinary income. Sir R. INGLIS concurred in the observations so penis nently made by the Hon. and Learned civilian who had just addressed the House. From every information which he had been able to acquire, the Hon. and Learned civilian was perfectly correct in the ertuximum of income which he Led assigned to the different sees of Canterbury, York, end Durham, arising not only from ordinary, but also from extraordinary receipts. The income of the Bishops in Ireland had been so grossly exaggerated, that if he were to say that it approached a fourth part of the sum which was ordinarily stated, be too should be guilty of gross exaggera tion. With regard to the Bishop of Hereford, he had en joyed the satisfaction of being known to that venerable Prelate for the last twenty-seven years, and, in point of fact, was under great obligations to him. Last year behest gone down to Hereford, and had resided three months in his diocese. Ile hoped that no further reference would be made to this subject until they had upon the table the re port of the ecclesiastical commission, which had been re . centl7 appointed. The petition was then laid on the table. On the ques tion that it be printed, Mr. HUME took the opportunity of complaining that two of the Right Hon. Gentlemen on the opposite benches had strangely misrepresented what he had stated respect ing church property. He would never shrink from lan guage which he had uttered; but he thought it a little too bad to hear language palmed upon him which he bad never used. There was all the difference imaginable between the property belonging to Deans and Chapters and the pro .perty which private individual s h a d i n adv owsons . He wished that the vested interest of every incumbent and of every advaweon should be held sacred. His observations merely applied to church property belonging to Bishops, Deams, and Chapters, and other ecclesiastical corporations. The result of this debate satisfied him that some further inquiry was necessary, and he trusted that Ministers would institute it speedily. The petition was ordered to be printed. IRISH VESTRIES. Mr. O'CONNELL rose to call the attention of the House to the Statute of the 7th of George IV., the opera. tion of which was considered vexatious and oppressive by the great body of the people of Ireland. The House must be aware that numerous petitions had been presented against the Statute. The representation of the bad odour in which the Statute was held amongst the people of Ire land did not depend on his own statement. He observed in a newspaper an tie'count of a meeting held in a church at 'Galway, over which an Archdeacon of the established church presided, for the purpose of petitioning against the Act. The Chairman on that occasion declared that a Ma gistrate on the bench had described the Vestry Act to be en abominable substitute for. the penal laws. He (Mr. O'Connell) would not apply such strong language to the Statute, but would content himself with declaring it to be an invasion of private rights. The Act enabled Protestants to assess parishes to any amount for the building or re building of churches and chap&s, and for the due perform— ance of divine worship. It also excluded Roman Catholics from any interference in vestries in those natters. Up to the passing of the Act Roman Catholics were only excluded from voting in vestries with respect to the building of clinches, and not with respect to the re-building of churches and chapels. The Act nu titer gave the Bishop of the diocese power to tax both the Protestant and Catholic inhabitants, for by the 23d section it was provided that the Bishop might assess parishes to any amount he thought proper for the building and re-building of churches and chapels, and for other purposes connected with the due performance of divine worship.— The partial and unjust operation of the Act must he manifest when the House reflected that in many psrishr:s in Ireland the proportion which Protestants bore to Catholics was extremely small, and in some there were no Protestants at all. It was unjust in principle to make the members of one religious persuasion build churches for those of another; but in the Bill which he intended to move for leave to introduce, he proposed to make no alte ration in that respect. lie would leave the established ehurch in possession of all the power which they ought to have. All he desired was, to give to every man who was compelled to pay rates the power of expressing his opinion as to the propriety of their imposition and application. It might he said, that if Citholics voted upon those sub jects is vestries, the interests of the Protestant Church would be neglected. Ile denied that there was any danger of that. If a pertinacious and unjust opposition should he offered to the building or re-building of a Protestant church, an application for a mandamus n lght be made to the King's Bench, and the whole expenFe of the pro ceeding would fall on the party or parties opposing the measure. It was notorious that many abuse; prerailed under the present system ; but he would not now enter into any details respecting them. His great object was to relieve one class of his Majesty's subjects from tie neces sity of keeping their pockets open for another class to put their bands in. He concluded with moving for leave to bring in a Bill to alter and amend the laws relating to Ve►tries in Ireland. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that as he was the person who introduced and conducted through the House the measure which bad been so often attacked, he might be allowed to say a few words in its defence. When the Statute was passed, it was generally acknowledged to be an improvemect of the law which had previously existed, and an alleviation of the burdens and obligations of that class whose cause the Hon. Member particularly professed to advocate. It received the appto hation of men who.wcre as jealous of the interests of the R o man 01010110 as the Hp, Umber t • v . .- ' ...N., `~" ',4 amongst others, of Lord Plunkett, then Attorney-General for Ireland. He differed entirely from the Hon. Gentle man with respect to the view he had taken of the general question ; and be did so because he thought an established church erne en integral part of the constitution, which was essential to the well-being of the people, and was necessary to be supported for the benefit of the State, by the general contribution of all clateeet of the community. If, therefore; ha IA assisted in preparing a Bill proceed ing on es principle different from the principle entertained by the Hon. Gentleman, it was because he had a strong feeling in favour of an established church, instead of allowing different sects to support their own institutions, without contributing to the eacpenses of that established church. The Hon Member complained that the Bill now under discussion gave larger soarers Of assessment to Pro testant vestries than they enjoyed under the former law. He told the irD'Lle, that until this Bill was passed, the as sessments could only extend to the building and repairing of churches, b u t th a t h e (th e Ch ance ll or of the Euchequer) had added the enlarging of 'churches, and the building and repairing of chapels, from which parishioners were previously exempted. Mr. O'CONNELL—I did not say so. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then un derstood the Hon. Gentleman to ea', that so far as re lated to the releuiletieg and repairing of churches, the previous la* gave the vestry a right of assessment. Now, the Hon. Gentleman had insisted on the system of procur ing funds for building churches in England arid Ireland, and he had stated particularly the hardships to which he asserted the latter eteantry was subjected. It was true that in England the vestries were not bound to levy assess ments for the building of parish churches ; but it was equally true, that latterly in Ireland the parishioners were not assessed for that purpose, In Ireland the funds came from another soureeee-nattiely, the first fruits. Advances were made to parishes from that source, and the sum so advanced was afterwards repaid, without interest, by the parishes. In the same way, when there Was a necessity for erecting a church here, a sum of money was advanced by the commiesioners, and the amount so advanced was repaid out of the proper rates. But, whatever might be the hardship of inconvenience which the Hon, Gentleman said resulted from obliging the parishes in Ireland to re store the sums granted to them for such purposes, that evil it should be observed did not arise under the Bill of which the Hon. Member complained. The law on that subject had its origin at an antecedent period; and by that law it was directed, that money lent for the purpose of re building churches, Sic. should be repaid. He (the Chan cellor of the Exchequer) in framing the Bill, did not over look that which the Hon. Gentleman stated on former os caeions to be the great and crying eeil of the system, but which he appeared to have forgotten to-night. The first and most prevalent evil under the for Mer law was, that the Roman Catholic was compellable to take the office of church. warden ; or, in other words, he might be forced to ap peer in a situation the duties of which he was not compe tent to discharge. For that hardship the Bill now com plained of furnished a remedy. It did not exempt the Roman Catholic flenn any honour or advantag t which might be derived from filling the office of churchwarden (for it was sometimes said that it was connected with honour and advantage, and sometimes the assertion was denied), but it gave him the option of taking the situation or of refusing it, just as he pleased; he was no longer compellable to undertake these duties. Another objection to the former Bill, but which was removed by the present, although the Hon. Gentleman had omitted to mention it, was this—that all matters of rate which it was deemed necessary to levy for repairing, or beautifying a church, were brought before an ecclesiastical tribunal, and the church, in such eines!, was supposed to act as judge in its own cause. What, then, was done in the Bill with respect to this point? Why, that power was altogether with drawn. It could not now be said by the Roman Catholic that cases of this kind were heard before an interested tribunal. These cases were submitted to a tribunal of Ma gistrates, where Roman Catholics as well as Protestants might sit in judgment. He would therefore say, that this single change in the system, if there Were no other alteration effected, showed clearly the feelings which actuated the fremers of this measure It proved that they had no Wish unduly to uphold the interests of the established church by the influence of ecclesiastical, authority. The Hon. Gentleman had said, that in the other parts of the Bill provisions Were introduced, imposing heavy burdens on the Roman Catholics. He admitted, that the clause for enlarging churches was added to the provisions for building and repairing churches. But why wee it added ? Simply, because it was a compromise between existing interests—sand it Certainly appeared reasonable that the vestry, which had the power of building, rebuilding, or repairing, should possess the minor power of enlarging, which, in many instances, might render it unnecessary to incur the greater expense of rebuilding. The Hon. Gen tleman's text objection was, that the Bill gave to the Bishop full power, as he had stated on a former occasion, to levy any sum of money he might think proper on the ' parish, and that such sum might be raised without any in terference on the part of the Roman Catholics. Now it would be necessary for the House to consider in what case that power was given. By the law of both countries, as it stood at present, the parishioners were bound to keep the parish church in repair; and so long as an establisher! church was kept up, it must be so. Now if a church were suffered to fall into decay, the Bishop had a right to see that a rate was properly levied fur the purpose of hay it repaired. That was the law of this country. When visit itions were made, it was the duty of th e Bi s h op to see that the necessa r y repairs of the church were effected ; and if the parishioners did not think fit to make such re pairs, the Bishop here, as in Ireland, had a right to compel them to do that which they ought to have done voluntarily. Of course s rate of that description must, like other paro chial rates, be shared amongst all the parishioners. Such a principle might not have existed in the statute law of this country before, but it hail long formed a principle of the ecclesiastical law that the Bishop should have a right to levy a rate for proper repairs where it was necessary. The pre sent Bill transferred that power from the Ecclesiastical Courts to another tribunal ; and in doing so, it had effected any thing rather than the imposition of an additional bur den on the Roman Catholics. Then another objection made by the Hon. Gentleman to the Bill was, that, when a churchwarden proceeded against any parishioner, and was cast, the parish were bound to defray his costs. He ad mitted that this was so; but as the individual acted under the direction of the vestry, it would be very bard, should the vestry have taken a wrong view of the question, that the person acting in his official capacity should not be re munerated. He had thus gone over several of the provi sions of the Bill against which the Hon. Gentleman had directed his complaints; and he thought, if the House had done him the favour to listen to what he had said, that Ile had shown that the present Bill had effected a great ame lioration in the former law. He had corrected a great abuse which existed under the previous measure—that of charging a gross sum as levied in the shape of rates, with out stating to what purpose or purposes they were applied. Every item meat now be distinctly pointed out. Indeed, the present Bill went further, for it provided that the ac counts should be open to the inspection of all the payers, and it gave the right of appeal against the amount of the rate, as well as against its particular appropriation. He contended, with respect to the present Bill, that it was an amelioration of the former law. He did not mean to say that this or any other measure was susceptible of alteration and improvement—(Hear)—but he could not allow the Hon. Gentleman to introduce a Bill to amend the existing Act on the ground of the enormities or abuses which he had been pleased to assert had been generated by it. He should therefore oppose the moth-n of the Hon. Gentleman. Mr. S. RICE said the Right Hon. Gentleman had risen to vindicate his Bill ; but the real and more practical object which it was their duty to discuss was, whether a case was not made out, even by the admission of the Right Hon. Gentleman himself, which rendered it expe dient, without looking to the feelings and views of those who framed the law, to alter and amend it. On the part of those who were immediately connected with indi viduals affected by measures of this character, he thought the House had a right to expect that a more distinct pledge should be given—and that, too, without loss of time—by his Majesty's Government, of their intention to propose certain alterations in this measure. He confessed for one, without meaning any disrespect to the Hon. Member for Clare, that he should be glad to see the amendment of the law taken up by the Government of the country, ra ther than by an individual.—( Hear, hear.)—The Hon. Member for Clare appeared to agree with him in that sen timent ; and therefore he acquitted him (Mr. S. Rice) of any disrespectful feeling.—(Hear.)—He entirely concur red in the sentiment of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that, whatever defects were to be found in the Bill as it now stood, such defects were not to be imputed to these who introduced the measure to Parliament, or to those who endeavoured to improve it. The whole spirit mani fested in the debates in Parliament on this subject was evidently dictated by a desire to apply a remedy tip an acb mitted evil ; and he must say that in many important points that remedy was afforded by the Bill before them. But, admitting that, was he, he would ask, to be therefore precluded from voting for a measure to improve that which was in some respects defective ? At the same time, he would no t b e prevente d f rom vot i ng w i th the Chancellor °f the " G Excheq u e r , prov id e d t h at a ple d ge ' wereiiven by element that th e y wou ld pay d ue att ntion to "her repatdies s and he hoped the Right lion. Gentleman would give him credit when he said, better remedies fos the evil than those which had yet been proposed. On the ground that the present law was capable of amendment, an I because he thought it ought to be amended,--on this ground, and after the gross violation of the law, such a• , it was, that had taken place in Ireland, and holding in view the neglect or the circular promulgated by the Right [lon. Gentleman opposite on the subject,—be ti:night Ministers bound to give immediate notice of their inten tion to propose an alteration and amendment of the law. The present was a subject which excited more attention in Ireland than many others of still greater importance : the petitions upott the table proved that, The Legislature was asked to amend a law which it was pretty generally admitted required amendment, and he (Mr. Rice) should therefore vote for the proposition of the Hon. and Learned Member for Clare. In doing so, he did not mean to pledge himself to go the full length which, it was pos sible, that Hon. Member might have in view ; he should pledge timself to nothing more than an amewlment of the Irish Vestries' Act, and that in the absence of a pledge from Government. Mr. MOORE was satisfied, that infinitely more excita tion would be prodticed in Ireland generally by an altera tion of the law, as suggested by the lion. Member fsi Clare, than could be compensated by the soothing effect which the Learned Gentleman expected from the change in parishes where the numbers of dissenters from the esta• blished church predominated. The Hon. Gentleman pro ceeded to say, that it was well known that there were parts of Ireland where the Protestant inhabitants had no parochial place of worship. In such cases, the Act of the 4th Geo. IV. gave the Bishop of the Diocess the power of conferring upon the inhabitants a right of attending the church of the adjoining parish ; and so long as circum stances required them to do so, and no longer, were they to pay rates towatds the support of that church ; for although the Bishop bad, to a certain extent, the power to unite adjoining parishes, it was a power only to be ex ercised for good and wise purposes, and in eases where ne cessity required ; and as soon as a parish built a church for its own use, the annexation fell to the ground, and the rates payable to the other parish ceased. He denied that there was any thing indefinite in the existing lave, which, it was true, contemplated " the providing of all things neces sary for the celebration of divine service, according to the rites and ceremonies of the church of England." This was referred to all things required by the rules, and canons, and rubric of the church, upon the extensive meaning of which latter word " rubric" the Hon. and Learned Member had rung the changes here arid elsewhere. The Hon. Gentleman went on to say, that the meaning of the term " rubric" was extremely simple, and that if the Learned Member looked into Burn's ecclesiastical law, be could find a definition of it.—(" Hear," and laughter.)— In fact, the " rubric" was the directionS contained in the book of Common Prayer with regard to the celebration of divine service, and in old prayer books these directions were frequently printed in red ink, and were therefore termed the rubric.—(A laugh. )—The lion. Member con cluded by expressing his determination to vote against the motion. Sir J. NEWPORT said the Hon. and Learned Gen tleman who had just sat down thought it right to refer the House to Burn's ecclesiastical law for the meaning of the terms " rubric" and " canons of the church"—(Hear, and laughter)—but the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite was content with issuing a circular as to what the rubric required without referring to Burn's ecclesiastical law. What was the result of this letter ? The result was, not only that man) of the parishes treated it with levity, but several of the incumbents said the Right Hon. Gentleman had no authority to send such a communi cation, and one individual went the length of saying he set it at naught. In one parish in Dublin, under the head of matters " necessary for the celebration of divine ser vice," was a vote of 300/. agreed upon in vestry, and granted to two curates for performing of early service, not leaving it to the incumbent to provide for the payment of his curates. Sums of money were voted for vestry chile, bellows-blowers to the organ—(Laughter)—organ turners, teachers of charity children, and other objects never contemplated by the Act, and all this under pretence of " things necessary for the celebration of divine service, according to the rights and ceremonies of the church of Englatcl." Such circumstances shelved the necessity of guarding the Act against the possibility of misconstructions. Having observed that he wished the assessments could be provided for by other means than annual vestries, for the purpose of avoiding the chance of excitement, and after remarking upon the defects in the appeal system, the Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by expressing a hope that the Noble Lord (Lord Gower) would give an as surance of his intention to propose an amendment in the existing law--(Hear)—and observed, that if till's sugges tion were not adopted, he should feel bound to support the motion of the Hon. Member for Clare. Lord F. L. GOWER considered it his duty to oppose the motion of the Hen. Member for Clare, and in doing so would take the opportunity to explain very briefly his views of the subject. When first he undertook the duties of the office which he now held, he entered upon them with impressions and notions as to this law which had been con siderably mitigated and changed by what be hadobserved since he went to Ireland. He was prepared to find a ease of remarkable failure and grievance, but he must say that his impression, arising from recent experience, and from what he had seen of the working of the law in the coun try, was, that it was a law which rather admitted than urgently required amendment. It was not necessary for him, after the explanation offered to the House by his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who, from his share in the enactment of the measure, was much better to explain its details than lie, to go into the subject minutely. The Hon. Member for Limerick must excuse him if, with the impressions now existing in his mind, he felt considerable caution as to pledging himself to the im mediate introduction of an enactment on the subject. He had formed an opinion with respect to various details of the Act, and that was, that some of them might perhaps be amended and improved; but, bearing in his recollection all the suggestions offered on the subject, he had not yet been able to make up his mind as to the course he should take, or the extent to which he might be able to adopt these recom mendations. The Hon. Gent. said it was a fit subject for a committee up stairs; that alone entitled him (Lord L. Gower) to decline giving the pledge which he so urgently pressed for. He felt it his duty to deal candidly and fairly with his Hon. Friend, and to say, that if he were disposed to rest his vote on the hope that the Government, would in the course of the present session, bring forward an enactment on the subject, anxious as be felt to have his Hon. Friend's vote along with him, he could not purchase that vote by offering the pledge which the Hon. Member required, because in doing so he might only be deceiving his Hon. Friend and the House. If he understood the Hon. Member for Clare aright, his proposed alterations would amount to an admission of rate-payers of all de scriptions to privileges from which they were excluded by the present act, and the Hon. Gentleman appeared to think that the danger and inconvenience that might once have resulted from that course was now reduced to almost nothing, by the good feeling existing among all classes on the other side the water. He was happy to say this good feeling did exist in a great degree on many subjects, and he could wish that the temperate tone of the present dis cussion had prevailed in all discussions of the subject, and in regard to all matters relating to Ireland. Such a cir cumstance might have almost reconciled him to the Learned Gentleman's proposition; but the tone and tem per referred to was not the tone of feeling that always prevailed in Ireland on this or other subjects, as the Hon. illember for Clare well knew.—(Hear.)--Under all the circumstances of the case, he would not give the pledge required at the bands of Government, and felt bound to oppose the motion of the Hon. Member for Clare. Mr. TRANT could not conceal from himself what the Hon. and Learned Member (Mr. O'Connell) had really in view. The Hon. and Learned Member had said that lie should not at present propose any alteration in the system which made those of one religion pay for the support of another religious. establishment. It was impossible not to understand whither this langusge tended. He was not surprised at this language, for he had always said, that as soon as a singe Catholic was introduced into that House, that Catholic would attempt to—he did not know how to describe it—(Hear and laughter) ;—but he believed he should convey his meaning by saying that that Catholic would attempt to undermine what the Catholics called an intrusive church. This, in fact, was the object of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, though he couched it under the name of an amendment in the Vestries Act. The l i Hon. M e mber for Limerick, too, was very nice in wishing these matters to be regulated by an Act of Parliament which had long since been settled by the Canons and the rubric. The people would look at this with great jealousy, for the people were not, as many of them were, philosophers• Hear," and laughter.)--He thought they ought to look with the greatest vigilance at any proposition with respect to the established church, coming from a member of another church. Mr. PEEL said, that notwithstanding the laughter with which some parts of the speech of the Hon. Member for Dover had been received, he must say that he entirely concurred with the Hon. Member in the doctrine that they ought to look with great vigilance at any proposition re specting religion which came from those who dissented from the established church. The . Hon. and Learned Member had said that he would not, at Present, - propose that Roman Catholics or Dieseuters should be relieved from tl:e payment of church rates. He could have wished that the Hon. and Learned Member had brought forward his views on this subject now, in order that they might have been decided upon at once.—(Hear, bear.)—He was not to he led aside by the plausible argument that as the Vestry Act reqtiired ailiendnient, they might allow this Bill to be brought in, becatise in the borhiiihtee they should be able to make it merely a Bill for the alteration of those paitS of the Vestry Act that required alteration. It was quite evi dent that the main object of the Hon. and Learned Mem bers was to make this alteration —namely, that the Roman Catholics and the Dissenters should vote as to the imposi tion of churcharatee. Now to such a principle he was de cidedly opposed, lie thought that if it Were acted upon, it would produce endless confueion, and that that harmony of which the Hott. and LeStated Member boasted would at once be destroyed, He thought they Weft lidded to pit vide for the maintenance of that part of the established church of the United Kingdom which was situated in Ire land. It was not properly called the Irish church ; there was no such church ; but that which was so called was a part of the Established Episcopal Church of the United King dom.—(Hear, hear.)—Great reforms had been effected in that part of the church, and the only difficulty they had to contend with was the want of a sufficient number of places of worship. This country could not be expected to do more than it had done, and was still doing. They must look to the landed proprietors of Ireland for the rest. (Hear, hear.)—How, then, were these expenses to be de frayed? He knew of no other means than a parochial rate, and to allow Catholics to hare a voice on rates for building and repairing chuches would, in his opinion, be productive of the greatest inconvenience. The lion. and Learned Member recommended that the Court of King's Bench in Ireland should decide in disputes on such mat ters. He thought, however, that the Court had already enough to do, and that the Judges were not proper per sons to decide whether a church should or should not be built in a certain parish. He was opposed, therefore, to the main principle of the Hon. and Learned Member, and could not give his consent to the motion. He admitted that the Vestries' Act required amendments, and that the subject should receive the fullest attention of the Govern men—(Hear, hear)—but he could not purchase the sup port of any Hon. Member on the present occasion, by pledging himself to bring in a - measure to amend the Ves tries' Act, because he was so decidedly opposed to the pre sent motion.—( Hear.) Mr. O'CONNELL claimed the privilege of reply. The object of his Bill was two-fold, and the Right Hon. Gen tleman had shown that he was only opposed to half of it. His object was, first, that Catholics should not pay rates without voting upon them ; secondly, to amend an Act which the Right Hun. Gentleman had acknowledged ought to be amended. It was unfair that one sect should tax another—it was unfair that the one should tax the eighty; and it was only reasonable that the Irish church, which was comparatively the richest church in the world, should pay its own expenses. He did not deserve the taunt of the Hon. Member for Dover (Mr. Trans). Ile knew of no difference of religious persuasion, except in the temple of his God. He was there, because the people of Clare had sent him there by their unbought euffrages. He brought forward a case which had nothing to do with religion, but which was an affair of pounds, shillings, and pence ; and he appealed to the House of Commons against a system of extortion and practical injustice. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and a division took place, when the numbers were— For the motion 47 I Against it 177 Majority against the motion AFFAIR AT TERCEIRA. On our return to the Gallery we found Sir J. MACKINTOSH on his legs, suggesting to his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. C. Grant) the necessity of post poning to some more convenient day the important motion of which he had given notice for that evening. Mr. C. GRANT fully concurred in the propriety of the conversation, but his only difficulty was to find an open day. The Hon. Members whoee motions stood for Thurs day had all given way to him with the exception of his Hon. Friend the Member for Knaresborough, whom he was glad to see in his place, and from whom he would receive it as a personal obligation, if be also would post pone his. Mr. BROUGHAM would most willingly oblige his Right Hon. Friend ; but his difficulty, also, was to find an open day for his motion on the reform of the law. His motion was not for going into a corner of the question but into the whole question of cheap, effectual, and con venient administration of justice. If he postponed his motion, he did not know any day before the middle of June on which he could fix it. Mr. C. GRANT asked Mr. Peel if he could assist him. Mr. PEEL would most willingly, only he could not put off the public business which stood for Friday. Lord J. RUSSELL would postpone his motion for re form, which stood for the 6th of May, if the Hon. Mem ber for Clare would only'postpone his motion, which stood for the same day. Mr. O'CONNELL—I think the question of reform the most important of all, therefore I cannot consent to postpone it.—(A Mr. C. GRANT would leave it to the House whether he should being it on to-morrow.--(Loud cries of " No.") After some conversation, it was then fixed that the mo tion should stand for to-morrow, with the understanding that it should commence early. ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE BILL. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved the second reading of this Bill. Mr. JONES objected to the Bill at that hour. The Bill itself was objectionable in most parts, particularly in those which referred to the Welsh judicature. It was divided into two parts, which were not at all necessarily connected, and between those was introduced a measure not connected with either—namely, the abolition of ar rest for debt for any sum less than 100/. Many who approved of one part would disapprove of the other. In deed, the Bill taken altogether was the greatest skeleton of a Bill he had ever seen. It would take six months in a Committee to put flesh on its bones.—( Hear, and a laugh. )--It looked as if the Hon. and Learned Gentle man had put together all the marginal notes of a whole volume of statutes, and put them together without order or form. Such a Bill he had never . seen in that House, except it was a Poor Bill which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman himself had introduced some few years ago, and which, though he had been two years in preparing it, appeared such an abortion when laid on the table of the House, that it was almost immediately withdrawn. The Bill before the House was full of absurdities and inconsis tencies ; he could mention several, but one or two would suffice. The Bill left to the King in Council the power to consolidate two shires in Wales as might be deemed ne cessary, and thus one Sheriff was to act for the two—the Sheriff acting in one county, and his Sub-Sheriff in the other. But he should be glad to know, if the King's writ were to be directed to the Sheriff to return a Knight of the Shire for each county, how he was so to divide himself as to avoid the penalties which would fall on him for not attending to each as directed? Then, under this Bill, there was no way by which a person in Wales could levy a fine and suffer a recovery ; so that all property would be at a stand still in that country. On the whole he would say, that a greater jumble of incongruities he never saw put together in the shape of a Bill ; and if the question of the second reading was pressed at this late hour (nearly eleven - o'clock), and when many Welsh Members had left the House, not expecting that it would be brought on, he should feel it necessary to move the question of adjournment. Mr. PEEL observed, that the opposition of his Hon. Friend to the Bill was certainly unfair. If his Hon. Friend had objections to parts of the Bill, the Committee was the place to discuss them, and it would therefore be more proper to let the Bill go into Committee, and discuss them after. Mr. O'CONNELL objected to the Bill, and the present was the proper time for making the objection, because it was too late an hour to enter upon the consideration of a measure of such importance. There were parts of the Bill which had no connection whatever with each other; one part relating to Wales, and another to regulations at Westminster-hall. The appointment of the three Judges to the Courts in Wales had no necessary connection with the Courts in Westminster, for if the business were equalized in the Courts of King's Bench, Common Pleas, and Exchequer, there would be no need of any additional Judges. He objected to the Bill, also, because of its abo lition of some parts of the Welsh jurisdiction ; for in stance, the sending up every Welshman to the Court of Chancery here, who had any equity business, was an in convenience to the people of that country, to . which they ought not to be subjected ; and if the Hon.• Member did not move under these circumstances the adjournment of the House, he (Mr. O'Connell) would. The Order of the Day for the second reading was then read, when Mr. T. P. WILLIAMS moved as an amendment that the House do now adjourn. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL, if he postponed the Bill from to-night, did not know on what night or day he could fix ; and many Members expected that the Bill would be brought on to-night. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman who had shown so much seal in defence of the Welsh judicature as to travel out of his way to make a personal attack on him, which certainly reflected very little credit on his good taste, had himself not pointed out any day on which the second reading could be fixed, if \, \ postponed from to-night. The fact was, 'the Hon. and Learned Gentlenidil wished to defeat the Bill altogether, but he might have taken d ititrk more fair and manly course, in meeting it on proper groiriull. He had ob jected to the appointment of three Judges in 4Veetinin ster-hall, as not connected with any alteration in did Welsh judicature, but their appointment would be ren dered .rieeegsary by the removal of the eight Welsh Judges. He (the AltOreet-Clerreral) was not so prejudiced in fa vour of this Bill, as id great objection to divide it into two, with the understanding aid flip tilseussion on each part should come on on the same evening' ; lift fitc , Hon. and Learned Member must know that that could not be done except in a Committee. He trusted the House would defeat this attempt to get rid of the Bill in an unfair way. Mr. T. P. WILLIAMS denied that his object in mov ing the adjournment was to defeat the Bill : his great objection at present *as to the lateness of the hour at which it was brought forward. Mr. F. LEWIS, as a Welsh Member, did not feel ertlA on to support the motion of adjournment, the object of which seemed to be to defeat the Bill. Colonel WOOD, as the representative of a Welsh county, had no hesitation in saying that it was the decided opinion of the best informed persons, professional and unprofes sional, in the principality, that the time had arrived when An alteration should take place in the Welsh judicature, Itlateh should assimilate it to that of England. There were great evils attending the present system, which ought to be got rid of ; but if there was any reason which had disinclined persons in Wales to this change, it was the proposition of the law commissioners of dividing the counties. That proposition, he believed, was abandoned ; but there was another proposition equally objectionable, that of consolidation with an English county. There were serious objections to such consolidation. It was, for exam ple, almost impossible to get the lower orders i n Wales to give their evidence in English ; they delivered it almost uniformly in Welsh ; they did not feel competent to give evidence on oath touching life in the English language. He (Colonel Wood) had been told that important causes had been 'carried into English counties for trial, where Welsh witnesses were examined through an interpreter ; but these related to property not to life. This was an in superable objection to that consolidation of Welsh with English counties which the Bill empowered his Majesty in Council to direct ; and he should take the sense of the House on this part of the Bill, by moving that it be ex punged. It had not been denied in the House that the Welsh judicature required amendment. The Hon. and Learned Member for Clare had suggested that the Welsh Judges should be ambulatory, and choose their Circuits, as in England. But this was not the first time such an idea had occurred ; and he (Colonel Wood) would tell the Hon. and Learned Member the objection to the proposal. The Welsh judicature travels with a Chancery bar, and by adopting the ambulatory system, one Judge would have one part of a cause, another Judge another part, and a third would have to pronounce judgment. The proposal, therefore, in the present system of Welsh judicature was impracticable. By the existing law, a plaintiff in a suit where the property is above 501. had the power of re moving the cause into the nearest English county, without the ability of the defendant to prevent it. There seemed to be no objection to send English Judges into each county town, dividing Wales into two Circuits, North and South, and proceed with the Assizes there as in Westmin ster-hall. Only one objection had been urged to this mea sure—namely, that there would be no bar. But it would be time enough to make this objection when the inconve nience was felt, and when the gentlemen in the princi pality complained of a dearth of barristers. If this mea sure was adopted, he was of opinion that many of the objections to the Bill would vanish. Mr. BATLEY thought that the present system in the principalities ought to be no longer retained. Mr. E. DAVENPORT was favourable to the principle of the Bill ; but its benefits were counterpoised by the mis chiefs which accompanied them. The Bill professed to be remedial, whereas it inflicted serious inconveniencies. Amongst other changes, it was intended to abolish the Chief Justiceship of Chester, that rat-trap which offered encouragement to apostacy in the profession. But the Bill, nevertheless, proposed to continue to Lancaster and Dur ham their Courts, which were not superior in antiquity and utility to that of Chester, the privilige belonging to which was important. Its abolition would substitute an expensive and dilatory system of law, for a cheap and ex peditious one on the spot. After a few words from Mr. dorms, the amendment was withdrawn. On the question for the second reading of the Bill, Mr. JONES "observed, that the Hon. Member for Brecon (Colonel Wood) was wrong in his statement that a plaintiff could remove a cause from a Welsh to an English tribunal. No cause could be removed but by a certiorari from the Courts at 'Westminster, which was not granted but on special grounds, and in point of fact none were now granted. An application had lately been made to the Lord Chancellor, in a case relating to land, which the Chancellor dismissed on the ground that the question could be equally well tried in Carmarthen. It had been conceded by the Commissioners themselves, on whose report the Bill was founded, that the Courts of Westminster-hall required reform ; then why were not these Courts reformed before the Welsh judicature was swept away, and the English system substituted, with all its imperfections on its head ? Another objection to the measure was, that compensations would be due to the officers in the Welsh Courts ; and his Majesty's Ministers ought to bring in a Bill first to com pensate those officers before they took away their places. He (Mr. Jones) should like to know the probable amount of these compensations ; he had heard it estimated at 100,0001. He could not see the great advantage of the introduction of the English jurisdiction. The Law Com missioners had had very imperfect means of inquiry. They were not on the spot ; but they sent queries, and received answers in writing. " The Commissioners (said the Hon. Member) seat me, amongst others, no less than fifty queries ; I answered them best I as could, and so much to their satisfaction, apparently, that they sent me a letter of thanks, and fifty more queries, which I answered also. I did not seek these gentlemen—they sought me. What was my surprise, therefore, to find it stated in their report, that what I said came from a prejudiced or self-interested per son !" The Commissioners appeared to be extremely igno rant of all matters in the principality of 'Wales, from never having been there. In the report there was a memorial purporting to be from the principal proprietors of Cardigan. Upon looking over the names, he (the Hon. Member) found the majority of them to be farmers and freeholders, under the only principal inhabitants, four in number, who had signed the memorial. In Carmarthen, the agent to Lord Cawdor had got a few names to the memorial ; when, at a public meeting, only seventeen hands were held up in favour of it. But it was said, let the excellences of the Welsh judicature be introduced into the English. He, however wished Ao see those exeellencies introduced before the Welsh judicature should be annihilated. What was to become of the records of Wales, the very props of pro perty in that country ? If the present officers were dis missed without remuneration, they, of course, would no longer attend to their preservation. It would be a great hardship on a prisoner to be removed sixty or fifty miles farther than he was at present obliged to go, and to be tried at a great distance from all his connections and wit nesses. All he hoped was, that the present Bill would not be forced upon Wales as a boon, and that Ministers would pause before they annihilated the Welsh judicature. Mr. C. WYNN of the principle of the Bill completely approved, though he should wish to have a full explanation of the manner in which the Attorney-General meant to carry it into effect. The principle was to complete the union between England and Wales, and give to Wales the benefit of English judicature. At present it was impos sible to obtain Welsh Judges without paying them salaries far exceeding the duties they performed. They only exe cuted their offices three weeks in summer and three weeks in autumn, and for this duty they were paid their whole annual salary, the country deriving no other advantage from them but what they performed in those six weeks. Now he thought, that the only way to make a Judge effi cient was to give him constant employment ; for, unless he had constant employment % he was likely to forget what ever legal knowledge he might once have possessed. What his Right Hon. Friend (Colonel Wood) had said about the power of a rich suitor instituting his cause in one of the Courts of Westminster, had been completely misunder stood. His Hon. Friend did not mean that the suitor could remove his cause to the Courts in Westminster after it had begun to be heard in Wales, but that he could if he chose commence his action at once at Westminster. The Hon. Member concluded by saying that the Bill had been drawn up hastily, and that more time was necessary for its consideration. He, however, thought that the Bill ought to be allowed to pass the present stage, because it was on every hand admitted that the appointment of the Welsh Judges should not be made in the manner it now was. Mr. RICE TAEVOR said, there were obviously great inaccuracies in the Bill before the House ; and he hoped that it would hereafter assume a very different shape. Yet he was bound to deal with the Bill as it now stood before the House. It was said that it was impossible to have three new Judges added to the twelve in Westmin ster-hall, unless the Welsh judicature was given up, and so it was to be sacrificed for that change. But he could . assure the House that the Principality did not think the change any benefit. It was then stated that Wales could not, under the present system, have Judges such as she y: might to have ; but he begged to refer the House to! list of eminent Judges who had distinguished that conew a ; and he would th e n task if that ass er ti on was t rue ? Government ch ose t o e x er t it se lf to fi n d men ,icoroPeti to fill the sit ua ti on o f W e l s h J u d ges, h e h a d no doel)..eil -t§otild find, among the rising members of the bar, s 6U ; cient number of i n di v id ua l s o f t a l ent to fill 'th ose s it ' ' tions. The removal of the Courts of Judicature would" a great inconveni e nce a nd a dditi ona l expence to all pod concerned in law proceedings. H e t rus t e d th e Bill w° t y contain no provision for the consolidation of countie, apprehension of such a measure having given rise tool ° of the opposition towards the present Bill. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL admitted the Bill in an imperfect state, which he attributed to the pti Df having neglected to print several corrections which 1 7, made in the margin of the engross e d co py. Hi s deft was to have the Bill read a second time to-night, 6P/t e mitted, pro forma, for the purpose of inserting those !, rections, and then recommitted, when its principle 0 4, be discussed. The chief principle of this Bill was t 43 '" sithilate the practice of the Courts i n E ng la n d. a n d 0 1, 1 and when the Bill came to be committed he would allow full time for the consideration of its detail. 4 1 Sir J. OwiN and Mr. WILLIAM S were against 1 , principle of this Bill. Mr. BROUGHAM vindicated the conduct of the v oi Commissioners, in their selection of the towns ort Northern Circuit, from the insinuation levelled . at de o an Hon. Gentleman opposite. Their views; he said, of not been directed with any view to secure the sties° . of the profession to which they bel o nged. He 0 4°0 mended the establishment of local Courts. Mr. O'CONNELL supported the recommendatiodo After a few words from the ATTORNICY-GENER.O Mr. Hump., the Bill was read a second time, a nd ord 6 be committed on Monday next. The other Orders of the DPr were then dispuseclof; the House adjourned at Half-past One o'clock. LIS' OF FORTY-SEVEN, WIIC FOR LEAVE TO BRI: ACTS. Al rhorp, Viscount ' Buller, C. Baring, A. Baring, W. B. Blandford, Marquis Ilenett, John Clements, Viscount Clive, E. B. Cave, R. 0. Cavendish, W. I)uncombe. T. Dundas, Hon. T. Dawson, A. Davenport, E. Easthope, J. Ewart, W. Fazakerley, J. N. rF OF THE MINOI 0 VOTED FOR THE MOTI INC; IN A BILL 10 ♦MI TITY .04 1 lON or j4 ic o•co• sly D 7;to Isis" Graham. Sir J. Guise, Sir W. Grattan. James Hobhouse J. C Howick, Lord Knight, IL Kennedy, T. F. Lambert, J. S. Monck, J • • • Macintosh, Rt. Hon. • Newport, 511.3 ' Ord, W. Philips, Sir G. . Power,' R. Parnell, Sir 11. Palmer, C. F. ( Ponsonby, Robinson, Sir LP Rice, T. Stanley, Hon'.. v Talbot, R. W uite, H.. M.- Wilson, lit - 11.-- Warburton,' Sir J. Macdonald, Sir J. Marshall, J. Maberly, Col. Martin, John Macaulcy, W. Morpeth, Viscount TELLSOL . O'Connell, Hume, Jose. SHAKSPEAREAN FESTIVAL. THIRD DAY. (FROM OUR. COARESPONDICXT.) Stratford-upon-Avon, Monday Nigh t ",,, This day was devoted more especially role", grandest exhibition of the Shakspearean job -The -The weather was most propitious, and, as wa s ` lO l pected, many thousands of persons entered the ,t 5 ( 4, 1 , 0 at an early hour, principally from Birmingham , ,h i t wick, and Leamington. The London and ° ' t hi coaches were also crowded with visitors; and news of the success of the commencement Of festival was evidenced by the throngs of per s .,: who had not joined in the rejoicings last week. pageant of Shakspeare's dramatic characters repeated, but on a scale far exceeding that of day last. On that day the rainy weather preyer', a full development of the intentions of the Cell :, tee, and the means they had to fulfil them. `, day the number of characters, and the richness 01 dresses and decorations, far surpassed the process:, of Friday. Without repeating the order of pageant we merely state, that it . was increase ,, the number of two hundred characters, severs“, horseback; and that some of the dressea..were Y 3 , 7, at from fifty to two hundred pounds. hide!' more gorgeous spectacle can scarcely be:tire:4 lf ' " Julius Caesar was again personated' by- Ch' ,l Wright," or rather " Julius Caesar -Chanel, Wright." His appearance as "'the foremost lie in all the world" did him great credit. He is , " great man" here to a certainty. •The proces s ' was three hours in passing through and about ' town. Soon after the return of •the. procession to Raymond's pavilion a grand ,dinner ,-was,servea, at the White Lion inn, where the .Mayor pregs! supported, as on Friday, by all the influentiall sons in the town. - After the usual and appropriate toasts had 13 . ,,j drunk, the health of the Mayor was proposed , returned thanks in an address . expressive of hi ", s knowledgment and the deep interest in: the 01 of a club which was honoured by the Sovereign) had for its object to perpetuate the meroori i l Shakspeare in a manner that gratified the P it , empire. . • • • " Mr. Raymond, the .manager of the theat ts d was drunk with acclamation., In returning O W he read the following letter from Mr. Wright :-"" g i " Mr. Charles Wright begs to offer his humble W it. / the Committee , of the. Royal Shakspearean Club O r a very handsome and classical mdruier ,in which they YP , managed the grand national tribute paid•to memo s e i Shakspeare, and begs the club to.accept his inclosed / scription of 51., and at • the same time to assure then , he shall always consider his person, his interest, so d e f property at the command of so respectable a body of tlemen. • " Charles Wright begs to communicate to the ( 1 9, mittee that to have dined with th e m to-day would ei formed an , epoch in the proudest (lay of his life ; but cumstances of a nature which will not admit of prevent him enjoying eo great a. gratification." When the health of Mr. Gwinnett was there was loud and long-continued cheering) t s ) gentleman having eminently entitled himself P consideration of th e warmest feelings of the ch ip ) Mr. GIVINNE T T t h en rose an d sa id—" Gentler' give me le ave to spea k. I- w ill b e b r i e f , " f o r l reasons. The first is, " for I have neither wit' ' , worth, nor words,"' " nor the power of :speecr), move your hearts." The 'second is, I d o not ;/ to give you opportunity to s a y th a t I " infinite deal of nothing,' or to prove to you my " reasons are like two bushels of chaff 'l f may seek all day ere you fi n d th em ," How 0 , have merited this compliment is not for me le y termine, yet I may be allowed t o sa y I have 8 " / "to do the state some service." I have, as fi r p i my capacity, and ardent zeal, and, a most chrs°,9 anxiety for the success of the club, endeavoUr e !, discharge its duties with credit•to- myself and "If faction to all parties. Whatever have bees tb S i l bouring, the anxieties, and the responstbiliti e , the situation, the approbation and, the numbe r / marks of kindness I have received have not 0 recompenced me, but left a considerable balanel my favour. For " your gr e at graces heaped 4 1. me," I can nothing render but my heartfelt throe' When I was appointed secretary, I accepted le office with a full determination to fulfil its dutivl the utmost of my power, to " lay my serviety your feet," and to " dedicate myself to your S I V pleasure," for the furtherance of the object ' club had in view; that is, doing s omething 0 the adopted birth ay of oUr most graCious S s o l reign, who is as g reat in. mind as noble in per oi The picture before me of his Majesty remind s of the words of our immortal poet_ " An eye like Mars to ; threaten and command; A station like the herald.Merctuft; New lighted on a heaven-kissing hill; A combination and a form indeed;- Where every god did seem to sef.hia seal, To give the mind assurance of the Man.' „t' Mr. Gwinnett 'concluded a nea t sirul. speech by expressing his thanks, amidst li3nd sa d served applause. The healths of the.several persons. who- hav e sisted in the festival were afte rwar d s drank, anu, meeting separated at an ear l y h our to attend masquerade. h 0" The masquerade i n th e p av ili on i n "the R° , 'ol market w a s one o f th e most iriterestirsj imuset ll- 4 of the kind we h ave ever seen. Thera- wire 1,000 persons present, and there was 'not that offensive breach of decorum too ofted witn,- if. at similar exhibitions in London. The . choli c to i were most numero us an d diversified; In t additi 6 : o ll many of the representatives of Shakspeare's 10. 164 ) 1 in the pageant there were many admirably-saltol • ;,~ ~' 11l .. • v; da 7! - 77, e . • \ • d 4p nic Dlt ~r R a n 2 Dit Dtt lad Dit F 2 th an wl th ~a~i`