The Sun. — London, England, 1863-02-28 00:00:00

to negotiations for the purpose of re-establishing peace be tween the contending parties by some lasting arrangements, sad it appears from Count Sebastiani's despatch that a pro- Fosition to this effect has already been made to Russia by rance, but hitherto without success. Can it, then, he expe dient to make a proposal which there is no ground to hope would be accepted ? The effects and bearing of the contest upon the security of other States have not hitherto been such as to warrant measures of such a description; nor has the conduct of Russia towards England been calculated to ex cite any unfriendly feeling ; she has, on the contrary, per formed towards this country all the offices of a good and faithful ally, and, in the late difficult negotiations for the purpose of effecting a settlement between Belgium and Hol land, she has acted with perfect fairnessin her co-operation with the other four Powers. Under these circumstances, his Majesty, deeply lamenting the calamities of a disastrous and desolating contest, does not think the time has yet ar rived when he could be justified in adopti ng a proceeding which, however conciliatory in form, could not fail to alarm an independent Power, naturally j ea l ous o f i ts right, For these reasons his Majesty feels himself under the necessity of declining the proposal which the Prince de Talleyrand has been instructed to convey." The noble viscount spoke of the "rights" of Russia; but the fact was Russia had long before lost any rights she pos sessed in Poland by her violation of her engagements. (Hear, hear.) He did not presume to offer any opinion on the des patch of the noble viscount in 1831. He simply drew the at tention of the house to the possibility of a similar despatch being written in 1863, and of the noble viscount again be- coming the arbiter of the fate of Poland. Under these circumstances he put it to the house whether they ought not to press the Government to say what they were going to do? (Hear, hear.) He held that if treaty ob ligations to which England was a party existed in regard to Poland, then this was so far an English question. There Were many other considerations which led to the same con clusion, but he would not go into these now. He did not pretend to state the whole of the great Polish cause. He was only, as it were, opening the diggings which he had no doubt other hon. members would work more fully. He would merely say a word or two on the practical aspect of the question. It was significant that other Powers were no longer indifferent to Poland. In France, for instance, there was a diversity of opinion among public men on almost every question save one, and that was Poland. On that subject every man, woman, and child in France, from the Emperor downwards, was unanimous in expressing sympathy for Poland. He would not venture to predict what would be the policy of France in regard to this matter, but there could be no doubt that it would depend on that of England. (Hear.) For a long time past men had been in the habit of asking what would the Emperor do, but the question now was, what would England do ? (Hear, hear.) He believed he could say with truth that the feeling of this country was as unanimous and as friendly to Poland as that of France. (Cheers.) And what had been the con duct of Austria in this matter? She had complied with the Treaty of Vienna, as far as Galicia was concerned, and within the last few weeks the attitude she had assumed had received the well -merited commendation of the highest authorities in the other house. (Hear, hear.) It was the traditional policy of Austria to be friendly to Poland, True, she was a party to the great:crime of the partition , but when the Empress signed the deed she added these memorable words to it : " Placeat, because so many great and learned men will have it so ; but long after I am dead and gone people will see what will happen, breaking through everything holy and just. MAEIA. THEREFA." Again, during the insurrection of 1831 the Emperor Francis, then on his death-bed, sent the following message through Count Kolovratz, to the Envoy of the Polish Provisional Government " The Emperor feels that the time is drawing near when he shall have to appear before the great Judge; the posses sion of Galicia weighs on his conscience as a crime, and he would be ready to restore the province to Poland, provided it were not annexed to Russia." He would, therefore, urge the present Emperor of Austria to maintain the attitude he had assumed, for it was not only in accordance with the public opinion of Europe, but was consistent with the traditions of his own house. (Hear, hear.) There wax another Power in Europe—some spoke of it as a weak Power, but it was not so—which could ex ercise great influence on this subject. He meant the. Su blime Porte. The present Sultan was a man of determina tion and ability, and he could tell the house, what the noble lord at the head of the Government probably knew, that of all the Powers in Europe none would be more anxious at this great crisis to assist Poland than the Sublime Porte. There were many reasons why the influence of Turkey upon Russia would not be without its effect, The policy of England was a policy to vindicate her own public faith and solemn engagements ; the policy of the Turks would be a policy to save themselves and preserve the integrity of their empire. Again, in the North of Europe, there were Powers whieh had ever been and were at this moment friendly to Poland. On the other hand stood Russia her self and the Government of Prussia. To a certain extent Prussia had fulfilled the obligations of the Treaty of Vienna. Nevertheless she was on the very edge of a precipice, and it was to be hoped the King would not per sist in that policy with respect to Poland which he seemed to have adopted. He had seen with pleasure in the morn ing papers that the Prussian Ministers had announced that the Convention concluded with Russia had been'misunder stood and its purport exaggerated. He could not be lieve that Prussia had gone so far as the house had been led to suppose on a former occasion. She might have committed a fault—a fault which might, perhaps, be repaired—but he hoped they would hear from the Government some satisfactory statement as to the actual attitude taken by Prussia. (Hear, hear.) What were the sentiments of the people of Russia themselves ? Even in Russia we saw a ray of hope. Among the people of Russia there was a strong opinion in favour of Poland. The Rus sian Government was not a Government which sprangfrom the people or had any direct communication with the people ; on the contrary, it had many of the characteristics of a foreign Government. Whereas, then, the Russian Go vernment was no doubt resolved, if it could, to crush the Poles, the people of Russia were not at all of that opinion. He would not weary the house by reading passages from the Russian newspapers. It was enough to mention that a journal printed in St. Petersburg recently published an argument in favour of an independent Poland, and urged the Government to act upon that view. That paper had since been suppressed, but the fact that it ventured when in existence to publish such an article was very significant • (Hear, hear.) But his chief dependence was on Poland her self. He believed she was able, if we would only show her our sympathy, to restore her independence. (Hear, hear.) He did not ask for intervention; he did not wish that a single foreign soldier should be sent to Poland. One Queen's messenger despatched from the Foreign-office to Paris, Vienna, or Constantinople would be worth 100,000 foreign bayonets to the Poles. It was not armaments they wanted, but if the Powers of Europe, parties to the treaty of Vienna, and the sublime Porte, chose to act, then the fate of Poland was secure. (Hear, hear.) The house to-night presented a very different appearance from that which it exhibited when he called attention to the state of Poland on former occasions. He believed the reason was that a great change had taken place both in the opinion of the country and in the tone of the house. Wby should there be such a change ? It was because a long absent visitor had returned. Many years, indeed, had passed since "dope for aseason bade the world farewell ;" a long season and a sad season for Poland, but he believed it was passed. Hope had returned, and he was anxious to welcome her to that house, and to mark her presence there to-night by moving this address to the Crown. The hon. and learned gentleman concluded, amid loud and general cheering, by moving an address humbly to represent to her Majesty "That certain treaty obligations have been in curred by England and other Powers with Russia in respect to Poland ; that these treaty obligations have not been ful filled by Russia; that for years past the Poles have borne w i t h exemplary patience this deliberate violation of their national rights ; that while their endurance has attracted the admiration of Europe it seems to have aroused the worst passions of the Russian authorities; that the patriotic self restraint of the unanimous people of Poland has at length given way under an accumulation of outrages unparalleled in these times ; that the Kingdom of Poland is now the scone of a desolating conflict between the troops of Russia and the people thus driven to desperation; and humbly to submit to her Majesty that these facts de mand the inter position of England in vindication of her ow n public faith and solemn engagement." Sir DE L. EVANS seconded the motion. Mr. NEWDEGATE was unwilling to urge the noble lord at the head of the Government to interfere on behalf of Poland beyond what his sense of discretion would justify. The eonduct and language of the noble lord were a suffi cient guarantee to the people of England that his efforts would not be wanting to mitigate the evils by which Po land was oppressed. He had never stood aloof from any movement in any part of the world ; but he doubted and f eared whether, if the Poles succeeded, they would not find that they h a d su b st i tute d one tyranny f or anot h er, b ecause he t do ubtsd whether th e con diti on o f th a t coun t r y was suc h as to v ethat the peopl e wer e qualified for freedom. The Emperor Alexander the First had attempted to carry out the dictates of the treaty of 1815, which established consti tutional freedom in portions of ; but he had been immediately met by a n o stirring up dissension and strife, the a f Jesuit h. agency, establishi , ar theopsrtoaoto of things which was, which England in anticipation of th w in England desired, he had been forced to expel the g Jesuits from the country. This happy state of things lasted until 1820, when the mischiefs . which had been fomented broke out. Russia had a right to plead that she had been forced to crush the freedom she had created. (C r i es of "Oh.") Let not the houso b e deceived. There were agencies at work in Poland which were not in favour of true freedom. With whom had the Emperor remonstrated ? With Rome, an d Rome had refused all aid to the pacification of Poland. He had only risen to protest against t h e house being deceived, and to object against any hasty action in the case of Poland, which by hurrying the Government into that which might become a most serious complication, was not likely to ad vance in Poland the cause of true freedom. Mr. BUXTON said that every one who took an interest in the welfare of Poland would feel obliged to the he n. member opposit e (M r. H ennessy ) f or b r i ng i ng the question forward. H e h a d heard with pleasure that par t o f his speech in which he had stated that he did not mean to advocate intervention by war, but only by diplomatic means. Every man of sense and humanity in the coun try would deprecate war in behalf of Poland ; but there see med strong ground why our Govarnment should come forward and protest against what was now taking place in Poland. It Might not to be content with protest ing, but ought to induce the other Powers of Europe to join with England in making a protest not only against what had passed but against the barbarities which Russia would perpetrate should she succeed. Russia had treated Poland with scandalous cruelty and shameful insult as well. She had most resolutely set herself to crush Poland under the heel of an iron despotism, and, if possible, to break the spirit of a most gallant people. (Hear.) He thought that protest would not be without avail, as the Russians were singularly sensitive to the public opinion of Europe, If the Powers of Europe joined in such a protest, the Empe ror himself would immediately feel his position on finding that all civilised countries were against him. The hon. gentleman denounced the conduct of Prussia, and referred to the state of feeling in France as most favourable ,for a joint protest, in which Spain, Turkey, and Austria might join, with a view of urging upon Russia a more wise and gentle policy toward Poland in times to come. (Cheers.) Mr. M. MILNES hoped the house fully estimated the importance of the question, because upon their view of the matter would depend the conduct of the Government in regard to following any propositions of the Emperor of the French, or in initiating any measures of their own. The Government would do well to follow the opinions of the house, because on this question no Government would be authorised to act entirely on their own responsibility or private opinions. It could only act with safety and with honour by obtaining the full support of the house and the country, not only in any measure which they might take, but in any consequences which might result. It was no secret that this question was now deeply agitating the French people, who were ready to support their Emperor in any measures whatever with regard to Poland, even though they might ultimately induce an appeal to arms. It therefore became the house to consider whether it was their duty to support any proposition for possible interven tion which might be made to us by the Emperor of the French. He could not think that the treaty of Vienna had any other sense than:as determining the common consent of all the Powers at that period that Poland should enjoy in a certain degree a separate and certainly a comparatively free Government, though there was no doubt that Lord Ca Ale reagh was aware of the difficulties which encumbered the question the moment a free Poland was attached to a des potic Russia. All the evils which had been anticipated had daily increased. He could not agree that Polish revolution of 1830 was unjustifiable. It had been provoked by syste matic injuries and insults. The Emperor of Russia had taken advantage of that outbreak, though it had never been diplomatically stated, to consider that the treaty of Vienna had been uicelled, and that thereafter she held domination over Poland by simple right of conquest. He could not ad mit that doctrine for several reasons, and mainly that what ever might be the immediate relations between Poland and Russia, that Russia by the treaty of Vienna had contracted such obligations towards the other Powers of Europe as would justify them in telling her that she had no right at the present time when the wisdom of the moment bad taught us that to hold a recalcitrant nation by pure force was not only impolitic in itself, but intolerable in its conse quences, to keep Poland in a continual state of chronic in surrection--that she had no right to impose that condition of disturbance upon her neighbours, Austria and Poland— and no right to do so as regarded the common peace of Europe. Looking at the question of interposition from another point of view, he would call the attention of the house to a somewhat parallel state of things in the history of Europe. In the year 1809 the Tyrolese were attacked by the combined armies of France and Bavaria, They made an appeal to England, at that time under a Tory Govern ment not supposed to give countenance to anything like insurrection. With the leave of the house he would read a sentence from the answer made on that occasion to the de puties of the Tyrol by the Government of England. Lord Bathurst, after expressing regret at the event, said " When submission is in effect more hazardous than resis tance, or when the danger attending on both are nearly ba lanced, a brave nation may be encouraged justifiably to prefer the latter alternative." The noble lord went on to say that, " when there really was danger of defeat, it was not for those who were not to participate in the danger to counsel others to incur it. Should the oppressed nation, however, decide upon resistance, his Majesty's Government could not refrain from giving some testimony of the inte rest which he took in the issue of a contest too unequal, he feared, to be availing, but which was just." The character of the Russian nation was well known, and their calm and cool headed statesmen would, of course, treat the expression of British public opinion for just what it was worth. He (Mr. Manes), however, really believed it was worth some thing, and in two ways—(hear)—for, as an hon. gentleman had remarked, Russia was not quite unamcnable to public opinion. The Russian Government were now conscious that they could no longer act with all the astuteness of the West and all the barbarism of the East. (Hear.) The Czar knew now that the newspaper was not confined to the Russian capital, but that it found its way to the remotest portion of his dominions. Russia was conscious, too, that she was perpetrating a crime which was alike injurious to her prosperity and her reputation. If to the deep feeling of the English nation were added the enthusiasm of the French, it appeared to him that a force of public opinion would be raised which sould not be regarded in vain. (Cheers.) He thought if overtures were made to her Ma jesty's Government to express—if it were not too strong a word—the indignation—(cheers)—of the English nation he believed the Government would not misrepresent either that house or the country, The Russian Government would, no doubt. attempt to justify their proceedings, but then it was well known that apologists had been found for the massacre of St. Bartholomew and the Sicilian Vespers. In fact, every coup d'etat that had ever taken place had its side of reason. The Russian excuse for seizing numbers of men in their beds in the middle of the night was that the Government were afraid the people would cause a national insurrection. But why should the Government have feared that ? who drove the people into that state of mind ? (Hear.) Although he had no doubt the military power of Russia must make her successful in this unhappy struggle, yet our interposition might, at any rate, shorten a state of things which was most horrible and detestable to this coun try. (Cheers.) Mr. WALTER said he had paid great attention to the eloquent speech of the hon. member for King's County (Mr. Hennessy) ; but he was surprised to hear that the language of the last part of the resolution did not mean anything but diplomatic interference. (Hear.) He would express no opinion upon whether this was or was not the right moment for an armed interference; but if the words of the resolution meant anything at all, they meant war, and it was important the house should bear that in mind. England ought not to counsel her Sovereign to use language she did not mean to give effect to. (Hear.) Mr. DENMAN expressed himself in similar terms, and said he should have proposed to substitute for all the words after " demand," in the last paragraph, " the serious and immediate consideratioß of her Majesty's Govermiaent." He thought the hands of the Government should be strengthened to express the sympathy of the English people with the miseries and cruelties inflicted upon the unhappy Poles ; but he did not at all agree that the negotiations should be commenced with an avowed stipulation that un- der no circumstances whatever of violence or cruelty were we to go to war. The Poles had the sympathy of the whole country, and of the whole of that house, except perhaps the member for North Warwickshire, whose judgment had been somewhat warped by the fact that the Poles were a Roman Catholic people. But was the hon. gentleman unaware that it was in countries oppressed like Poland, that the Jesuits and their agents possessed greater influence than in countries that were happy and free ? (Cheers.) Lord FERMOY thought, if our interference was to be limited to the expression of our opinion, the less nervous or shy we were in the expression of that opinion the better. (Hear, hear.) He had no doubt that if England, France, and Austria made a remonstrance to Russia to the effect that she might take her choice, either to fulfil the terms of the treaty of Vienna with regard to Poland, or be prepared to give that country its freedom. By adopting such a course they would obtain the gratitude of the Polish people, and' praise of the world. (Hear, hear.) Mr. S. FITZGERALD commenced by compimenting the hon. me m b er for King's County, for the judgment, discretion, and ability with which he brought the subject before the house. This question of Poland had been sup- I posed in former times to belong to politicians who had be • come remarkable for their enthusiasm, but now the question had entered into a diff erent phase, and instead of being a question only fit for enthusiasts, the the attention ther e was na more t e h p e r aeca and urgent question demandi ng states men of Europe than the present position of the Polish nation. (Cheers.) And it became still more important when we considered that the solution of the question rested with her Majesty's Government. He did not remember an occasion when greater responsibility devolved upon her Majesty's Government. If they turned to France, they found the journals of that country expressing in burning language their enthusiasm and sympathy in the cause of Poland ; and who could say but that the public opinion of France might become too strong to be overruled by the Government of that country ? And then indeed events might take place, the importance of which it was impossible to form any just appreciation. If events of such a nature were to occur would it not be a source of humiliation that they were the consequence of the over caution of the House of Commons and a Liberal Government. (Hear.) It should never be supposed that Austria, whatever her feelings, could take the initiative upon a question of that kind. He felt convinced that if this country were to unite with France, Austria would zealously co-operate with them in obtaining justice for Poland. Some hon. members on the opposite side had found fault with the terms of the re solution ; but he could only say it had his entire approval ; he wished it to be an influential expression of their opinion, and that an address to the Crown was the best means of in suring that object. He had seen a distinguished Pole that daony,m be one d ay restored to the family of nations. Let the who t o ld hi m he had never despaired that this country Izisre.nsoTt A di N sa s p v po ß it ri th t a h t an ex k p ede e lu te r ti . o F n i . zg(eCrhaeld for the the gene rous words he had uttered. It was possible that the insur.. rection might be quenched in blood, but some spark of life would be sure to be left behind ; and sooner or later the smouldering fire must burst into a flame, and be followed by a European conflagration. Action on the part of the Government of England was imperative; but he did not see how this eountry could commit itself by going back upon treaties which had been so frequently violated with impunity. He thought that a protest in the name of the principle of non-intervention, endorsed by the unanimous adhesion of the English people, would not be in vain. It could not fail to be of real service to the gallant Poles, and would be a step gained towards the practical recognition of the principle of non-intervention as binding upon the na tions of Europe. Lord R. CECIL, alluding to the speech of the hon. gen tleman who had sat down, said that, as he should be found in the same lobby with that eloquent and accomplished pupil of Mazzini and others with whom he did not generally agree, it was necessary that he should state his reasons for the vote he should give. He referred to the extraordinary unanimity of feeling in that house for the sufferings of Poland, and his detestation of the conduct of Russia. Eng land, by the treaty now in existence, had a locus standi in all the events that occurred in Poland. It had been said that those treaties had been too often broken to be now put forward ; but that was an argument insulting to the dignity of England. England could look neither to the right nor to the left when she was bound by solemn covenants to a definite course. He quite agreed that it would be an ab surdity for a maritime country to make war in behalf of Poland ; still, whatever might be its use, they were bound to record their protest against the violation of the public law of Europe. Sir H. VERNEY declared that if England abstained from interfering on behalf of Poland, she, to a certain ex tent, became a party to the atrocities inflicted upon her. Not only was it our duty so to interfere, but it was our policy, and if necessary in a material degree. Sir M. FARQUHAR expressed his regret that the House of Commons had by their words and acts so en couraged the Poles to look forward to a day when they might regain their liberty, and throw off the Russian yoke, which had borne them to the dust, and then laid itself open to the reflection of not having acted up to its statements. The Polish question had now become one of European importance, and it depended upon the course which the Government might take, whether we should be at last able to intervene so as to raise that country from the difficulty in which it was placed, and from the oppression to which it was subjected ; or whether wo might not eventually be led into a dreadful European war. He trusted some steps would be taken to show that we are really in earnest. The revolution was one of de spair, and he trusted it would lead to the joint interference of Europe. Mr. G. DUFF hoped, in the name of the Scotch mem bers, that the Government would take a strong line in this matter. He was glad to find in the debate which had taken p lace, that there had been a just discrimination be tween the conduct of the Prussian people and that of their Government in reference to the recent alleged con vention with Russia. The King of Prussia had not al ways been the friend of the oppressor against the oppressed —but since succeeding to the throne he had gone into the hands of a military clique, called by the people of Berlin " The Anti-Intellect in uniform," who used the powers of the Government for their personal advantage. Mr. D. GRIFFITH said that the revolting cruelties of Russia which had been referred to were only a part of the Russian system. The hon. member referred at some length to the proceedings of the Congress of Vienna, and came to the conclusion that the stipulations of the treaty of Vienna were worth nothing at all to the security of the Poles. Nothing would satisfy that gallant people but the restoration of Poland in its entirety, as it had existed be fore the partition of 1772. Mr. H. SEYMOUR said that of one fact there could be no doubt, that if the Government acted as the honour and interests of this country demanded, they would receive the unanimous support of the house and the people. He could not agree to the last part of the resolution, because it re ferred to the treaty of 1815, and " a bas le traits do 1815" had been the motto on the Continent for many years. He would propose to substitute for it a Tote of confidence in the noble lord at the head of the Government, Mr. MAGUIRE fully concurred in the whole resolution as it stood, and thought that if ever there was a case where interference was not only justifiable but demanded it was that of Poland. Mr. WALPOLE—I have never heard a debate in which there has been greater unanimity upon the facts—(hear)— but there appears to be great diversity of opinion as to the nature of the practical resolution which we should adopt under present circumstances. (Hear. hear.) We are pain fully unanimous in deep sympathy for the much oppressed, much suffering people of Poland. (Hear, hear.) We are in dignantly unanimous at the terrible oppression which has now been brought to bear upon that people more violently than ever, crushed as they are under the iron heel of Russia, more cruelly even than in former years. (Hear, hear.) We are, I think, sadly unanimous in thinking there is another Power, with whom we are nearly allied, and who has been be trayed into what I may almost call mean and infatuated con duct—(hear)—towards a people over a portion of whom she herself reigns, and with whom she should sympathise. (Cheers.) Thus far we are unanimous, and then comes the real question, how are we to deal practically in this case P What is the practical test to which we should bring it I , Here there arises an amount of diversity equal to the unanimity ex pressed by the house upon the first point. My hon, friend, in a speech which does him infinite credit in every way for the ability, the information, and the knowledge which it evinced, as well as for the extraordinary temper and moderation in which it was expressed.—(hear, hear)—has concluded his resolution with a paragraph respecting which two of his supporters are so little agreed as to its meaning and pur port, that while one of them, the hon. member for Tiverton (Mr. Denman), thinks it weak, and requires amendment, the other, the hon. member for Berkshire (Mr. Walter), thinks it is so strong that if acted upon—and I confess I concur in that opinion—it must, if not necessarily, at least, pro bably, lead to war. (Hear, hear.) Mr. DENMAN—I did not say that I considerei the re solution weak, but I objected to it that it was a resolution which ought not to be placed upon the records of the house without we meant almost immediate war. (Hear.) Mr. WALPOLE—Then the speech of my hon. and learned friend, together with that of the hon. member for Berkshire leads to this important question, "Are we pre pared to adopt a resolution which will inevitably lead you - . step by step into war ?" and I think before we arrive at that conclusion we should pause. (Hear, hear.) My hon. friend the member for Horsham (Mr. S. Fitzgerald), in a speech which has gone home to the heart of every one--(hear, hear) —for the generosity of feeling and the ability it displayed, has recommended us to press upon the Government to con cur with France and Austria in immediate remonstrance with Russia. Perhaps that might be the most effective course, but I apprehend that if this resolution would be likely to lead to war, the concurrence of three such Powers so remonstrating with such a Power as that remonstrated with would lead you into a war that might not attain the end of freeing Poland, but might end with a war which you do not at present intend to begin—a war in the Rhenish Pro vinces. (Hear.) The hon, member for Halifax made a stout speech, but he ended with a conclusion so tame that I could hardly believe he meant to press it upon the house—that we should act upon the principle of non-intervention. My noble friend the member for Stamford urged an argu ment that ought to lead us immediately into action. He told us there is such a violation of treaties and engagements that we are bound in honour and public faith to take up the question immediately ; but have not these engagements and treaties been violated for the last 45 years ? And if the same arguments have been impressed on us for all that time without impelling us to us action, what new phase has the question now assumed to lead to immediate action ? Well, then, the last two hon. gentlemen who spoke have said, " Do let us bring the question to a practical conclusion." Now, I believe the most practical conclusion you can bring the question to is not to destroy the unanimity of this house in the eyes of Europe and of the world by anything which would even seem to approach to division among us. (Hear.) The question, therefora, does seem to resolve itse if into this, —Are the Government prepared to echo the sentiments ex pressed by the house, and, if they are prepared to echo those sentiments, is the house prepared to leave to them the re sponsibility of enforcing them? I will add no more. I think there is a danger in this house adopting a responsi bility which it cannot execute for itself. I think there is no danger that 1 can see in leaving the responsibility to a Go vernment who have expressed themselves already on the question in terms as cogent as any that have been used in this debate. I for one am prepared to support the Govern ment, and leave to them the responsibility if they assure the house they will honestly exercise it. (Hear, bear.) Lord PALMERSTO N, who rose amid loud cheers, said it was natural, on a subject which excites so muc h feel ing, not only in this country but on the Continent, and especially in a neighbouring nation, that this house should re-echo the sentiment which prevails so strongly out of doors; and I must do the hon. member who moved these resolu tions the justice to say that in the manner in which he brought the matter forward there was nothing, I think, of which anybody had a right to complain. (Hear, hear.) With regard to myself, who have been quoted by the hon. member, both as to what I have said and what I have writ- ten, I have only to say that I don't stand here to unsay anything which I may formerly have said, nor to retract anything which I may formerly have u ritten. (Cheers.) The Governments of which I have been a member have always entertained the opinion which it was my duty ' to express, that is this matter of Poland the engagements of the Treaty of Vienna, especially as regards Russia, have been systematically and long violated. (Cheers.) It is im possible not to feel the deepest sympathy for the Polish nation. (Cheers.) They have for a century been most singu larly unfortunate. They were unfortunate before the par tition in having a Constitution which, whatever some of its merits may have been, was tainted with the gravest possible defects. They were unfortunate in the successive partitions which deprived them of their nationality. They were unfortunate when the First Napoleon entered the Polish territory on his way to Russia, because he did not then think it expedient to take advantage of that occupa tion for the purpose of restoring Poland either to entire or modified nationalitty. They were unfortunate at the Con gress of Vienna, because at that time, however anxious the British Plenipotentiary was to restore Poland to a considerable degree of nationality, the power of Russia prevented it, and when Lord Londonderry (then Lord Castlereagh) urged certain conditions the answer of the Emperor of Russia was—" I have 200,000 men in Poland, and I cannot agree to the proposal you make.' They were unfortunate afterwards, inasmuch as the good THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 28, 1863. and liberal intentions which I believe animated the Emperor Alexander at the time when the Treaty of Vienna was signed was not afterwards adhered to and carried into execution. It is well known that at the time the late Prince Czartoryski was the confidential adviser of the Emperor of Russia, and you see in the provisions of the first article of the Treaty of Vienna the hand of a friend to Poland—a person, interested, who looked forward to a better futurity for his countrymen,—for in that article it is said that the Emperor cf Russia reserves to himself to give such internal extension to the kingdom of Poland as he may think fit ; the meaning of which, I believe ) was, that the Emperor con templated at that time, adding to it some of the ancient pro vinces of Poland which had been in the Russian empire. But it is the fate of despotic governments that much depends on personal influence, and when personal advisers change the policy of the Government changes too, and this intention was laid aside. And although a constitution was given to the kingdom of Poland in accordance with the intentions of the Treaty of Vienna, yet that Constitution soon became a dead letter, and in the administration of the kingdom of Poland under Constantine there were grievances that justi fied insurrection. Then I say it was impossible for any man seeing, on the one hand, the great and distinguiehed quali ties that belonged to the Polish nation, and, on the other, the calamities which from time to time have befallen them, not to take a deep and lively interest in their fate. We have been reproached in some degree by the hon. member for King's County for not having in 1831 and 1832 availed ourselves of a communication made by France for the purpose of inviting some action at that time in favour of the Poles, then in arms against Russia. We had at that time to consider a great manybalanced circumstances and motives, and, with every disposition to do what we might think use ful to Poland, we did not think that particular proposal was one which would have led to any good or useful result. It might have embarrassed us on other questions then pend ing, and could not, as far as we could see, be attended with any good practical result to the Poles themselves. But we have always held that the conduct of Russia towards Poland has been a violation of the stipulations of the Treaty of Vienna. Prussia and Austria have not been liable to the same degree of reproach. Literally they have carried into execution, in regard to their respective portions of Poland, the stipulations of the Treaty of Vienna, because in the duchy of Posen and Galicia there is a uniform representation, the language is preserved, the religion is respected, and all the rights and privileges stipulated have been enjoyed. And, speaking of Prussia, I must here remark that, how ever we may condemn the spirit and intention of that con vention which we understand was signed between Prussia and Russia, I am inclined to think, from information we have received, that the apprehensions which we have been led to entertain with regard to that convention are not likely to be realised in the result. I believe that conven tion has not been ratified. No ratifications have been ex changed, and I am inclined to think, not only from what passed in the Prussian Chambers, but also from the infor mation we have received, that it is not likely that conven tion will be carried practically into execution. (Hear, hear.) I am speaking, however, not officially but from in formation we have received, for we have not yet had a copy of the convention itself. I trust that it may be so, because such an interference of ,Prussia with what is now possing in Poland would excite, as it has already excited, great con demnation everywhere, and if that conventional interfer ence were followed by acts it would cast discredit on the Government of Prussia. (Cheers.) Sir, , the pre sent Emperor of Russia has, in regard to Poland, been placed in a very critical position. It is a great calamity for anybody to succeed to an inheritance of triumphant wrong —(cheers)---and it is very difficult for a person so circum stanced to disentangle himself from the poisonous folds of so fatal a bequest, (Cheers.) There is in the human mind a strong passion,-a determination to maintain and to vindi cate its own personal liberties; but there is also a strong passion, and I doubt whether it is not as strong a passion, which makes men cling to the power of exercising oppres sion on others, and when long rooted habits have accus tomed the authorities of a Government to administer a ty rannical system it requires great perseverance and activity on the part of the Sovereign to undo the evil and restore things to their proper condition. I do believe that the present Emperor of Russia, a kind-hearted and bene volent man, does mean, and has meant for Some time past, to improve the condition of his Polish subjects, That would be in perfect unison with the system on which he is governing his subjects. The Sove reign who has emancipated the serfs—the Sovereign who is establishing a system of jurisprudence founded upon an imi tation of the best judicial codes of Europe—a Sovereignwho is introducing into his Russian dominions a vast number of modern improvements, cannot surely have it in his heart intentionally and systematically to harass and oppress any portion of his subjects, whether Russian or Polish. Well, sir, there can be no doubt that this last act called a conscrip tion, but which has elsewhere been more properly designated a proscription, was an act wholly foreign to that disposition which I believe really animates the breast of the Emperor of Russia ; and it accounts entirely for the outbreak which has occurred in Poland. (Hear,) It was a most barbarous act—(cheers)—it was a most cruel piece of political tyranny under the semblance of a merely military arrangement. (Renewed cheers.) No wonder that the Poles should have taken up arms to prevent the further execution of a mea sure of that kind. (Hear, hear.) I believe that, as far as one hears, has in some degree now been stopped, and has ceased. (Murmurs.) But, sir, the question mooted by the resolution before us relates to the conduct of her Ma jesty's Government with a view to communications about to be made to Russia. Now I cannot conceive that a Sovereign gifted with the qualities which I believe are possessed by the Emperor of Russia should not see that, in the contest in which he is now unfortunately engaged with the Polish nation, military success would be a great and signal calamity. (Cheers.) Why, what would be the effect of military success—what would be the result if, by the action of his troops, by the overpowering force of the 100,000 men who have been sent to Poland, be was entirely to suppress and put down this extensive insurrection ? Why, he would have a country in which the desert plains would be bathed in blood—in which there would be nothing seen but the smoking ashes of ruined villages and towns. (Hear, hear.) Is that an object which any Sovereign can wish to arrive at, and deem it an advantage to him to obtain a suc cess of that kind ? Sir, if the Emperor of Russia saw his own interest—and we give him credit for being an enlight ened man,— he would think the course best calculated for his own advantage — the course best adapted to secure the permanence of his own authority as well as to promote the happiness of his people, would be to put an end to that re volt by an act of generous amnesty—(cheers)—and by, at the same time, re-establishing in Poland those institutions which the Emperor Alexander gave in execution of the Treaty of Vienna. (Renewed cheers.) I cannot believe but that if that were done peace would be restored in Poland and might continue to exist there, and that Europe might be saved from those disturbances which the con tinued misgovernment of Poland and the discontent thereby engendered among the Poles cannot fail to reproduce from year to year, as has been the case in years that have gone by. (Cheers.) But with regard to the: particular motion of the hon. member, I should hope that he would be satisfied with the unanimous expression of opinion which has been the result of this discussion (hear), and not press to a di vision the resolution he has placed, sir, in your hands. The objections to this motion are really very great. It proceeds upon an erroneous foundation. The hon. member assumes that by the Treaty of Vienna we are under an obligation to interfere in the affairs of Poland. We have a right to in terfere, but we are under no obligation to do so. (Hear, hear.) And although to those who have not turned their minds to diplomatic documents this may appear to be a nice distinction, yet there is a real, substan tial, and most important distinction between treaties which give you the right to interfere and those which im pose on you the obligation to interfere. (Hear, hear.) Now in the Treaty of Vienna—in that last treaty of June 15, there is only ono obligation by which we should be compelled to interfere in the case that might arise—namely, that article of the treaty which stipulates that the Powers guarantee to Prussia the continued possession of the portion (of Saxony which was allotted to Prussia by that arrangement. But there was no guarantee whatever in the engagement which relates to the kingdom of Poland, nor in any other part of the treaty, except, indeed, that which concerns the independence and integrity of Switzerland. There fore I say that the hon. gentleman throughout his resolu tion proceeds on the assumption that we are under an obligation to interfere ; and, consistently with that as sumption, in the concluding passage he calls upon the Government to interpose and vindicate the public faith and solemn engagements of the Crown. Why, Sir, if in truth we were under an obligation to interfere, the resolution would be right and fitting, and would, as has been observed by hon. gentlemen who have spoken in this debate, amount to this, that unless the remonstrance which might be made in virtue of that obligation were attended with success, the Crown would be compelled to call upon this house to give it the means of enforcing by arms thos stipulations the just fulfilment of which was refused when urged by diplomatic communication. (Hear, hear.) There fore there is that grave objection to that particular motion of the hon. member. And if, as I think everybody must admit, unanimity is desirable, wo already see that there have been two or three amendments proposed to his resolu tion, and that consequently it is not likely either one or other of the three would secure the unanimous assent of this house. (Hear.) There are other less material criti cisms to be made. The hon. member proposes that which I believe to be unusual—viz., to record, in an address of this house, quotations from " Hansard" of that which a member of this house may or may not have spoken on some former occasion. I apprehend he does me the honour—and I am sure I am much obliged to him for it—(hear, hear, and a laugh)— of proposing to insert in a solemn address of this house ex tracts from speeches which I am supposed to have made. But I do not thi n k t h at a course w hi c h wou ld b e a ltogether consistent e ith er w i th the usages or the d i gn i ty o f thi s house. Then, sir, in th e i n t eres t o f th a t cause w hi c h th e hon. mem ber has at h ear t ,—wh i ch t h e who l e house h ave a t heart — (cheers)—whi c h I b e li eve t h e country h as a t heart—(re newed cheers)—and which I am sure that he and al l ve k hear me must wish to see promoted in the best manner pos sible for the advantage of those whom it concerns, I should say that the course best adapted to accomplish the purpose he has in view would be to content himself with that unani mous expression of opinion which has preva iled to-night— (cheers)—to let it go forth to the world, as it will go to morrow, that of all the hon. members who have spoken on this occasion there was not one who had a different opinion from the rest in regard to his interest in the fate of Poland or to his sense of the injuries which the Polish nation have sustained.; but this, as was well stated by the right hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Walpole), it is better to leave it to the responsible Government of the country to give to the Sovereign on this matter such advice as they may think best calculated to attain the object which all desire, and not to take upon the house a responsibility of detail which be longs properly to her Majesty's Minister, resting assured that the sentiments expressed by the house this evening are equally shared by those who have the honour of holding office under the Crown. (Loud cheers.) I would, there fore suggest to the hon. gentleman that he should now allow the house to go into Committe of Supply, and be satis fied with the result—which I am sure is honourable to him and must be satisfactory to all who take an interest in this subject—of the discussion in which so many members have expressed opinions entirely in accord with each other. Mr. DISRAELI—Sir, we often hear it said, in the course of these discussions in this house, that the partition of Poland was a great crime. If it were a great crime, it was a crime shared by the Polish people. A population of 20,000,000 are not destroyed, their political existence is not terminated without their being some faults on their side; Since that partition, let us recollect what has occurred in Europe, The greatest events which have ever happened in Europe have happened since the partition of Poland. The whole of the French Revolution, and all those immense re sults which flowed from that great ebullition have since then intervened. There has appeared a character on the European stage who alone in modern times could be classed with the Alexanders and the Csesars of antiquity. All the boundaries of the kingdom which existed when Poland was partitioned have been altered, the laws of almost every country in Europe have been remodelled, new codes have been intro • duced, and new Governments called into being. In short greater and more numerous changes have occurred since that event than were probably ever before crowded into any similar period of the history of man. Sir, I think it is very much to the honour of an English statesman, and of an English statesman who had not in his time that credit paid to his sagacity which I believe posterity now accords to him —(hear, hear)—l think it is much to the honour of Lord Castlereagh that, after such immense events, called upon to participate and take a leading part in the settlement of Europe after these events, he should not have been blind to the importance of restoring, if possible, the political inte grity of Poland ; and that, with all those arduous and onerous duties which devolved upon him at the Congress of Vienna, ho felt that the restoration of the political independence of Poland was a result necessary to the ease and tranquillity of Europe. (Hear, hear.) Let us remember what were the circumstances under which Lord Castlereagh, as the representative of the British policy, conceived and counselled the resto ation of the political in dependence of the kingdom of Poland. He was supported in that policy by Austria and France ; ho was opposed by Russia. Austria and France were then exhausted Powers ; England was suffering from an immense exertion; but Russia, from a combination of circumstances, was in a posi tion of irresistible and unprecedented strength. It was un der those conditions that LordCastlereagh, though aided by the sympathy of France and Austria, felt that he was obliged to relinquish the plan which be was then of opinion would be of most eminent advantage to the future prosperity and tran quillity of Europe. But what are the circumstances under which we are now considering the question ? England is not suffering from the consequences of an unprecedented exertion of its energies continued for 20 years. Engfand was never so powerful, never so united as it is now; France is not an exhausted Power, and I am happy to believe that Austria is daily gaining strength and authority —(hear, hear)—strength and authority due not merely to the possession of the great resources which have always belonged to that empire, but to the prudence, sagacity, and wisdom which distinguish her counsels. But if the position of England, France, and Austria is so strong and so promising, what is the position of Russia I The posi tion of Russia is not that which dictated the answer that the noble lord had quoted, the haughty roplythat 200,000 Rus sians were in possession of Poland, and that that was the only answer that would be given to the politic counsels of the English Plenipotentiary. Well, air, Lord Castlereagh, under those circumstances, representing with great ability and foresight the interests not only of England, but of Eu rope, gave up the restoration of the independence of Poland and had recourse to another scheme. His policy was the re storation of the independence of Poland, but it terminated in the treaty of the Congress of Vienna, which endowed a section of Poland in the possession of Russia with some ap pearance of political independence. But although England relinquished her policy, still under that treaty she possessed her rights and had the opportunity of standing upon them. I cannot agree with the noble lord that the hon. gentlemanwho introduced this question to-night with so much ability laid down, or any hon. gentleman who follows this line of argument, lays down the position that there are obligations under the treaty of Vienna which force England into action, but there are moral obligations which the noble lord cannot deny, which result from the pOsition that we occupy under that treaty—moral obligations of the duty of fulfilling which we may avail ourselves whenever the opportunity is afforded. The present position of affairs in Poland is that another revolution has occurred. The hon. gentleman who has introduced the question has expressed in his speech, and, indeed, in his motion, what is justly described as the unanimous feeling of Parliament and of the country with respect to that insurrection. The noble lord objects to the mode in which the expression of the opinion of the house is called for. I entirely agree with the noble lord as far as this ; I think that, under the cir cumstances of the case, the great object is to elicit an expression of opinion on the part of the house ; but how far the hon. member ought to proceed depends upon the conduct of the Government. If the Government, for example had adopted a line of policy opposite to the course recommended by the hon. gentleman he would have been per fectly justified in asking the house to support either a resolu • tion or an address which asserted the policy that he advo cated. On the other hand, if the policy recommended by the Government was one similar to that which was advo cated by the hon. gentleman himself, such a proceeding would be quite unnecessary. There is, however, a position which I think has not been sufficiently considered, that of a Government which does not frankly communicate to the house the policy, the general policy, which it intends to pursue. (Hear, hear.) Because I must say that, although ' I listened to the noble lord with great attention, I did not at all collect from him what was the general course which her Majesty's Government intended to pursue with regard to this matter. (Hear, hear.) That we should become acquainted in detail with the measures which the Govern ment may think it desirable to adopt at this moment would be most unreasonable, but 1 did not hear from the noble lord any expression of opinion as to what he thought might be desirable or practical, or even as to the spirit in which her Majesty would be advised by her Ministers with respect to the present state of affairs in Poland. I think that is very much to be regretted. The hon. gentleman must decide for himself as to the course which he should pursue in the matter. lam myself of opinion that it would be ex tremely unadvisable to have any appearance of a difference of opinion on this subject. (Hear, hear.) At the same time, I entirely disagree with the critics who have found fault with the language of portions of the address. If the house is in a position in which a resolution on an address is necessary, there is nothing in the address of the hon. gen tleman which should be cavilled at. It is, of course, in the power ofany hon. gentleman to place his own interpretation upon the words of that address. One hon. member smells gunpowder in the last sentence. I should not myself, if I thought an address requisite under the circumstances, shrink from the adoption of this form of words. Putting upon this address the natural interpretation of its phraseo. logy, I understand that it means this, that her Majesty's Ministers are not to pass the present state in Poland over in silence, that they are to avail themselves of their rights under the treaty, and to take every other proceeding which they think wise and expedient to carry into action a policy favourable to the Poles. In my opinion that does not neces sarily mean war, and I think that we must all of us indulge in more than the hope that great and beneficial changes will take place in the condition of Poland without an appeal to the last arbiter of human destiny. (Hear, hear.) Ido not presume to give counsel to the hon. gentleman ; but I will venture to give him this advice, either to proceed with his address, or, yielding to what I think is the general feel ing of this house and for the sake of unanimity, to with draw it—(hear, hear)—but not on account of false scruples to consent to have the address which he has proposed in a very spirited manner, and which very effectively represents his sentiments, emasculated in its language or changed in its expressions. I think the hon. gentleman must feel that he has obtained his main object, in originating a discussion which has been sustained with great power, an d which has no doubt made her Majesty's Ministers clearly understand that in the Houss of Commons there are not two opinions respecting the state of affairs in Poland. (Hear.) I alway s shrink from any expression of politica l sentimentalism. I do not know any people who have suffered so much from political sentimentalism as the Poles. Year after year there have been people living in Paris and London, some of them in a state of comparative luxury, stimulating their unfortu nate countrymen in Poland to fruitless insurrection and to useless revolt, and all this time we have been favoured by them with exp ressions of feeling,which—if ex pression of feeling would effect the salvation of nations— have certainly been abundant and profuse. But what makes me hope that in the present state of circumstances there is a chance of the great English policy which Lord Castlereagh counselled and recommended being carried into effect is, not only that the position of England, of France, and of Austria is very different from what it w as i n 18 13 and 1815, not only that the position of i Russia is very different from what it was at that critical period, but that i n P o l an d we have at pre sent a sheer insurrection of the people against oppression. It is a movement not originated and not stimulated by foreign emissaries. (Hear, hear.) It has not been created I b y conspiracies i n o th er countries ; it has not been f ostere d in order to prom o t e l ocal ambition or the objects o f f ac ti on . It is a national movement--(hear, hear)—it possesses all the elements of a sacred cause, the love of country, the memory of a gloriou s p as t , and, as I hope, and w ill b e li e ve, the in spiration of a triumphant future. (Loud cheers.) Sir J. B. CLIFTON hoped the hon. member for the King's county would go to a division. The house was en-, itled to some more definite answer from her Majesty's Government. Mr. WYLD held it to be the duty of every free citizen of a frree state to protest against the atrocities comuiitted by the Russian Government. Mr.IIENNESSY thought he should onlybe acting in ac cordance with the general wish if, after the debate which had taken place, he withdrew his motion. (Cheers.) He did so, however, with the object of enabling any other gentle man to bring forward the same or a similar motion on a future occasion if necessary. The motion was then by consent withdrawn. THE lONIAN ISLES. Lord W. GRAHAM called the attention of the Secretary of State for War to the increased expenditure on the lonian Isles, as proposed in the army estimates of this year (being £189,000 as against £158,000 last year), and asked the reason thereof. He also referred to the cession of these islands to Greece, and asked for information relating thereto. Sir G. C. LEWIS replied that the expenses for last year were not based upon precise data, and in that way the esti mates fell short of the actual expenditure. However, the estimates for the coming year had been rectified by the in formation which had been received from the controller general of military accounts. No alteration had been made in the number of the battalions stationed in the islands, and the expense that might be incurred in the present would be the same as last year. Col, DUNNE asked what was going to be done with the Islands ? Unless it was desired to aid Greece in a policy of aggression upon Turkey, Corfu ought not to be ceded to Greece, with the fortifications now existing upon the island Had the Government entered into any negotiations with the other powers to the treaty respecting the cession of the islands to Greece. Sir G. C. LEWIS—Her Majesty's Government have not entered into any negotiations on the subject with the other Powers. Sir G. BOWYER expressed astonishment at the state ment of the right hon. gentleman. Lord PALMERSTON—My right hon. friend has stated that we have had no communication with any of the powers, because the case anticipated in the speech from the throne has not yet occurred. (Hear, hear.) Mr, ROE BUCK—I must state that I am rather sur prised at the noble lord's answer; for, happening to be in Vienna at the time the question arose, I made inquiries of the Austrian Government, and they told me distinctly that the noble lord's Government had communicated with them, and one of the Austrian Ministers read the reply which he sent to the noble lord. (Loud cries of " Hear, hear, and laughter.) I saw the reply ; it was exceedingly well reasoned; and I should like to see it upon the table. (Cheers.) Lord PALMER STON—The hon, member saw a despatch which was read to my noble friend, but not given to him (Laughter.) TOBACCO DUTIES BILL. The debate on the second reading of this bill, adjourned from the 23d of February, was then resumed. The CHANCELLOR of the E XCII E QUER said that the hon. member for the Tower Hamlets having stated at great length his objection to this bill, he should be compelled to trouble the house with a few observations in reply. He should first wish to advert to two'objection, of a general cha racter. One was that this bill ought to have been considered in connexion with the financial arrangements of the year. He thought, on the other hand, that it was more convenient and advantageous to bring in this bill at a period of the ses sion when the house could give greater attention to its de tails. The period when the financial measures of the year were submitted to the house was a period of great pressure, and if this bill had been mixed up with the questions ot far greater interest which were usually connected with the Bud get its details could not have been so carefully examined. An other objection was that this bill cheapened the commodity to the rich man and took no cognisance of the commodity con sumed by the poor man. This objection was very wide of the truth. No doubt this bill tended to cheapen tobacco and cigars of the highest quality, but it also applied alike to every kind of manufactured tobacco. It had been argued by a portion of the press as if there were a difference between the poor and rich in this respect, that while the rich man con sumed manufactured tobacco the poor man consumed tobacco in leaf. But the poor man did no such thing, for even the sale of the tobacco in the leaf was illegal. The leaf was unfit for consumption as imported, and the effect of the bill was not to cheapen the high priced cigar of the rich man, but to open the door of a fair and healthy com petition in a commodity which had been excluded from our imports, not by an absolute prohibition, but by a duty so extravagant as practically to amount to a prohibition. So far as the poor consumer was concerned, the present sys tem was as complete a monopoly as if bonded or an entire prohibition, while in the case of the rich man the grievance involved was of so trifling a character, if, indeed, one ex isted at all, as to be hardly worth the consideration of the house. Having made those observations he should proceed to deal with the motion of the hon. member for the Tower Hamlets, which he hoped the house would not be disposed seriously to entertain, for if they should do so they would be setting a course at variance with established practice. The case at. issue, it should be remembered, was one in which the Executive Government proposed to the represen tatives of the people a reduction of taxes levied on the peo ple, and in the history of the last 20 years, during which period more than 1,000 proposals of a similar character had been made by different Governments, he was aware of no in stance in which one bad been met by a motion similar to that which the hon. member had brought forward, although on several occasions particular propositions had been cha racterised as unwise, or of such a nature that they ought not to receive the sanction of Parliament. The motion of the hon. gentleman, in effect, went the length of saying that the Executive Government, which was responsible for the taxation of the country, having laid before the House ot Commons a bill, the object of which was the reduction of certain duties—a private member was justified in rising in his place, and while declining to take the sense of the house as to whether the measure was or was not a wise or a good one —seeking to postpone it for an indefinite period. Now, the universal practice of the house, which, he ventured to contend, was founded on wisdom, was alto gether opposed to such a mode of proceeding—a mode of proceeding which, if it had been pursued in former years, would have rendered progress in our commercial legisla tion almost impossible. The minute examination of details which it was the duty of the Government to institute with regard to such questions as the present, and which they submitted to the consideration of hon. members on the floor of that house when making the proposals which they deemed it to be their duty to lay before Parliament, had hitherto, he might add, been found the practical mode of carrying out great commercial reforms ; but if the whole of those details were, because some timid interest or ano ther happened to be the victim of imaginary danger, in stead of being taken on the responsibility of the Govern ment, to be sent upstairs to a committee, to be dealt with by a system of examination and cross-examination, the pro gress by which our legislation had of late years been dis tinguished would never have been made. He should, there fore, without hesitation appeal to hon. members to Say whe ther they would abandon the wholesome practice, and lend themselves to sanction a course which amounted to nothing more than an evasion of the question at issue. Be would not in the course of the observations which he was about to make trouble the house by entering into a lengthened explana tion of those details of the bill which might more conve niently be discussed at a future stage, but would enter at once into the general merits of the subject, premising that he was at a loss, after having heard the speech of the hon. member for the Tower Hamlets, to know why he had adopted the particular course which he had taken. The hon. gentleman had stated that he stood out as the sup porter of the existing law, which he seemed to regard as one of a perfect character—a law which had been devised, as ho would have it, in 1823, for the purpose of benefiting the revenue and to suppress smuggling, in both of which ob jects the hon. gentleman maintained it had succeeded. Why was it, then, that, entertaining that view, the hon. gentleman had not moved the rejection of the bill before the house ?—a bill which he appeared to think would have the effect of introducing innumerable horrors into our com mercial system. Indeed, the hon. gentleman had gone so far in his opposition to it as to picture the foreigner gloat ing over the deserted dwellings of the great manufacturers in this country; and to conjure up images of starving opera tives which were quite harrowing. (A laugh.) He had even gone further, and talked of slaveowners and a Royal monopolist in Manilla deriving incalculable advantages at the expense of the ruined British workman. Those, how ever, were but old stories after all, and required something in the nature of proof before they could be implicitly relied upon, for the prophecies of the hon. gentleman had been discredited by uniform experience. The hon. gentleman seemed to think that by the proposal he had made he was giving effect to the wishes of the tobacco trade, but the jus tice of that supposition he for one disputed. A statement on behalf of two respectable members of the trade had, in deed, been circulated, which might be said to be on the hon, gentleman's side, but their share in the matter was, after all, but infinitesimal, and he himself, who had daily communications either directly or indirectly with the largest manufacturers in the three kingdoms, could safely say that not one of them had made of him the requirement which the hon. gentleman had made of the House of Contr mons. On the contrary, they had approached the question like practical men, and while submitting that the duty en a particular description of tobacco was fixed at too high a rate, or that certain regulations ought to be relaxed— points which were perfectly legitimate subjects for dis cussion—never advocated the relegation of the question to a committee—a course which could lead to no other re sult than an indefinite waste of time. Now, passing by the minute details connected with the question, it became his duty to show good grounds for introducing the bill, and for seeking to disturb the present state of things. Those grounds were four, and any one of them would, in his opinion, be sufficient to justify the step which he asked the house to take, while combined they were per fectly irresistible as arguments in, its favour. The fact was notorious that smuggling existed to a great extent. It was proposed to give to the British trader the power of manu facturing cavendish tobacco in bonded warehouses, and to make an allowance to him of 4d. a lb. for the loss entailed in the disposal of the stalks of the tobacco, and for the ad ditional expense of the premises in which the manufacture would have to be carried on. He would be allowed to de liver out the cavendish so manufactured at 3S, Bd, a lb., the foreigner being permitted to introduce it into this country at 4s. a lb. Though not introducing the bill as a fiscal measure, he hal great confidence that the revenue would be benefited by the alteration. As regarded the question of the interests of the manufacturer, so far from their being injured, he hoped it would be in the power of the house by judicious legislation materially to improve the position of the trader. Having been asked whether he could extend the system of manufacturing in bond to cigars and ether kinds of tobacco, he had, after due consideration, come to' the conclusion that he could not do so, on account of the manufacture being carried on by so many persons and re quiring so little capital ; but he did not despair of being eventually able to submit a proposition to the house, under which, without any working in bond, it might be practi cable for the British manufacturer to carry on the export trade in tobacco. This would be effected by readjusting the present impracticable system of drawbacks. The object of the Government was to make the measure as favourable as possible to the British manufacturer. Th 3 export trade was very defective as regarded the duty, but the Govern ment were ready to propose a means whereby the difficulties would be got rid of. Mr. ROEBUCK said the timber duties were referred to a committee, and he saw no reason why the tobacco duties should not be also. Ho denied that the proposition for a committee was an innovation. There were 10,000 persons emplcyed in this country in the cigar trade, and they com plained that the bill would place them at a disadvantage in comparison with the foreign manufacturer, Mr. LOCKE supported the motion for a committee. Mr. T. BARING disapproved of the bill unless the home manufacturer were placed on equal terms with his foreign competitors. After some further discussion, Dr. BRADY moved the adjournment of the debate. Mr. MAGUIRE seconded tha motion, and insisted that tke whole question ought to be referred to a select con' mittee. The house divided. Ayes 7l Noes Majority - 66 Sir H. CAIRNS then moved the adjournment of the house, and a division was taken ; the result being.— Fo'• the motion Against it Majority — 64 Colonel DUNNE moved the adjournment of the debate, which was then assented •to by the Chancellor of the Ev chequer. SUPPLY. The report of the committee of supply was biought up and the several votes agree to. BILLS OF EXCHANGE AND NOTES (METRO- POLTS). This bill passed through committee, and was read a third time and passed. The house adjsurned at five minutes past one o'clock. THE KINGSWOOD MURDER. The German, Edward Schmidt, who stand° charged upon his own confession, with the murder of Mrs. Halliday, at the Kingswood Rectory, in July, 1861, was yesterday brought before a ben ch magistrates at Reigate fur further examination upon that charge. The inquiry created very great interest, and the Town-hall was crowded during the proceedings. It will be remembered that the prisoner gal e himself into custody at Hull, and admitted that be was with the man Frantz, who was tried a t Croy" don for the murder at the Summer Assizes of 18 61 ' and acquitted, and that he was the man who coo' mitted the offence ; and upon this statement he was brought to Reigate to undergo examination! and was remanded until yesterday, in order to effort' an opportunity for the production of the pecans*? evidence. Inspector Coward, of the Surrey constabulary' who was engaged in the original inquiry, not informed the bench that since the prisoner ha d been under remand in Horsemonger-lane g aol be had taken two of the witnesses in the ease t n see him, and they both stated, that he was IT". the man who was in company with Frantz in the neighbourhood of,Kingswood at the time the murder was committed ; and Madame Tietjenef who, it will be remembered, was also examined ee a witness at the former trial, and who was alo ° taken to see him, expressed the same opinion. In the course of the proceedings Mr. Pollaky in: formed the magistrates, in answer to an inquiry made by the Chairman, that he had come down toi see the prisoner from a belief that he was one n, the men who was supposed to have been concerne d in the murder of a French judge in a railway OW riage between Paris and Lyons, three or four year; ago, and when, it will be remembered the deceas e ' was at the same time robbed of 40,000 f. ; and he produced a photograph of this individual that 138 a , 1 been sent to him by the French police, but be sai d it did not at all resemble the prisoner, and he Oh not believe he had anything to do with that affa ir ' The prisoner, who, it will be recollected, at the former examination declared that he was not in any way concerned in the murder, and that the state: ment he had made at Hull was false, now r epeate d the same defence, and declared that he was entire l y innocent of the alleged offence. The magistrates told him he had no one to then! but himself for the trouble he had got into; but, e; there was no evidence to support the accusation , h would now be set at liberty: The prisoner, who is a miserable-looking Ina g l was then discharged, and a small subscription v 7 3: made for him by the persons present for his inane diate necessities, and to enable him to reach Londoof where he said he wished to go. COUNTRY MARKETS. LIVERPOOL—Fms. 27. httt At this day's market there was a thin attendance of o the town and country trade, but wheat met a slow der ns ?"; at a reduction of 2d per cental on the week. Flour we'.. to fair inquiry, and at full prices. Indian corn was not qW so saleable ; mixed brought 28s 9d per 4801bs. WAKEFIELD—FEB. 27. 0 The wheat trade ruled dull to-day, and prioes mu st D I quoted is lower than last week. Barley a slow sale. other articles there was no alteration. Averages for the week : Wheat.. 2,151 qrs., at 4ss 41d Barley.... . 606 .. 35s 21d Rye — Beans lO EXETER—FEB. a Wheat, white.. 6s 3d to6s 4d f Barley. 27. 6 4s 3d to 40 03 Ditto red. .6s Od to 6s 3d I Oats .........2s 9d td 36 Fl ou r, fine, 36e to 37s ; seconds, 34 e t o 35 s per 5a0. 5. • CATTLE. „,, aid Fat beef, p sc., 10s0d to 10s9d Ewes, per lb ... • S F I L" , - ,a Pork carcases, 7s 6d to 8s 6d Wethers, d 0..... 6 icl to 1 I Lamb, p 1b.......—d to —d Fat calves, d0...6d to 7-ii Rough fat, 3id per lb. STAMFORD—FEB. 27. e' New wheat, 48s' to 508—red, 408 to 47s per 36 W ar , Barley, malting, 38s to 42s ; grinding, 32s to 34 8 p er Z e r Oats, .228 to 26s per 24 atone . Beans,, old, 448 to --sr" qr. ; new, 38s to —B. • Very heavy damages have been given against the Whitehaven Junction Railway, in a trial at Cumbe r , • reu land ass'aes. The plaintiff, a farmer, was seriously in.lll - on the company's line in August, 1860, and the rav- 1 ,, evidence showed that he would never recover his heal He asked 5,000 damages; the railway company offer° £3,000, and the jury awarded him £4,500. It appears th e l, were 24 passengers in the train when the accident tool, place, and 22 of them received compensation. [ADVERTISEMENT.] —Holloway's Pills.—Everyb w/ o f Wish.—One of the many causes of the eminent successe s this medicine is the great purifying effect it exerts o'f_, the circulation; it watches over the new blood fo rm , from the food, invigorates the distribution of the fflatu r n a blood, and casts out the old which has done its du t y , vg whose further presence becomes detrimental. By tilk.; 0, Holloway's Pills agreeably to their accompanying .1 structions every person may obtain the best perraissido state of health without interfering materially with r • usual habits, pleasures, or pursuits. The weak and oe vow, will find themselves invigorated by judicious dos es ! ) : this medicine ; and by steady and persevering atte nto 7 may confidently hope for increased strength, greater 0 0. fort, and better health. Births. Ott ALTHAM.—On the 24th inst. , at Stoke Court, Scoter- Mrs. Altham, of a daughter. 14 . 1 V MARSHALL.—On the 24th inst., at Milton House, - I i 6 bury, New-park, Mrs. Matthew Marshall , jun.t ° son. tli. PONSONBY.—On the 26th inst., at St. James's Palace) Hon, Mrs. Spencer Ponsonby, (of a son. Marriages. DANCER—FOWLER.—On the 26 t h inst . , at St. Johic e , Redlund, Clifton, Mark D ancer, Es q ., of Oving, 1311e0 inghamshire, to Elizabeth, daughter of the late IVO Fowler, Esq., of Whitchurch, Bucks. eot EVANS—WEDGE.—On the 24th inst,, at Boro'-greetlf, n ti Evans, eldest son of 1 1 , 11 f, e r b e s a on till van Robert Evans, Esq., of Ely, to Jane, youngest daugo„,, of the Rev. Charles Wedge, M.A., rector of 1 3 ° 1 " Newmarket, : H w a Gi c g rk h os shy ': er Deaths. green. B itEE .—On the 25th inst., the Rev. W. T. Bree, rector of CARTIVRIGHT.-011 the 26th inst., Francis Cartwiipor d Warwickshire, Or a . g :s e t d re 7 e 7 t,. and New Niree—t-14t; Hampstead, aged 66. tree , MACLAURIN.—On the 23d • inst., at 27, Pelham -El-a A E l s l ci e . s , le o y f , Thurloe-square, Captain D. S. K. Maclaur in, f°r°3 of the Ist Dragoon Guards. 111 at MORRISON.—On th e 26thinst., Reigate, G. Morrie° Esq., aged 75. rsoef WOODDILL.—On the 24th inst. , at Homerton -ter Sarah Wooddill, aged 93. m.' WARD.—On the 25th inst., at Upton-park, Slough, • Rawdon Ward, Esq., aged 75. _.....e, . T .avci r S' London : Printed and Published byWILLIAM.A.N. , .., -- „ 1 12, of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at THE SuN Of fice. Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the COUP" KUMleaex.—Saturday, February 28, 1863. -~~ s_ ~ }~, " 6~