The Sun. — London, England, 1833-07-27 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. ROUSE OF LORDS, JULY 26. In consequence of the vote of last night, the House, even before five o'clock, presented an unusually animated scene, there being a fuller attendance of Peers at that hour than at any former period of the session ; the ladies' gallery as well as that allotted to strangers, was very full. The Ministers did not take their seats till half-past five, and in the meantime their Lordships bad formed themselves into numerous groups, and were earnestly engaged in conversation. The spaces below the Throne, and under the bar of the House, were filled with Members of the House of Commons. kfter some petitions of no public importance had been presented, there was a general cry for " The order of the day." After that had been read by the Clerk, Earl GREY rose and said--My Lords, I am now pre pared to proceed and lay before your Lordships the amendments which I propose to make in the Bill now before us ; but before doing so, I wish to advert to what passed last night. I will not attempt to con ceal from your Lordships the regret I feel for the decie sion the House then came to: The circumstances under which the division took place, and the appearances at tending it were such as to place his Majesty's Government in a situation of very great difficulty and embarrassment —(Hear, hear)—and I therefore thought it was my duty—that it was necessary, for me to take time to con sider in what manner it would be my duty to act, after that adverse division. My Lords, the amendment, in my opinion, is not of very great importance ; the effect of it is merely this—that, in the first instance, there was a limitation of those funds, arising from the parishes in which service has not been performed for three years, to the Commissioners ; but that if it should appear to the Commissioners that it was not necessary so to use those funds for the purpose of the parish, :inn they were to be transferred to the general management, and be used as might be most expe dient. That, my Lords, I understand tc be the meaning of ;he amendment, and I do not know, except under the circumstances in which that vote was passed, that the effect of it will be to materially alter the discretion of the Commissioners. On reconsideration, my Lords, I do not intend to oppose it further, though I am still far from being of opinion that it is an improvement to the Bill. Beyond that, nay Lords, I do not consider it such an alteration, as affecting the principle of the Bill, as justifies me in aban doning it altogether.—(lmmense cheering.) Of course, my Lords, I reserve to myself the liberty of proposing any amendment on the bringing up of the report— (Hear, hear, hear)—which I may consider it to be my duty to do. At present, my Lords, I am prepared to go on in endeavouring to conduct this great and important measure to a successful issue— (Cheers)—as I believe it to be essentially connected with the safety of the Protestant church in Ireland.—(lm mense cheering.) I have already stated, my Lords, that I shall do so under a deep feeling of difficulty and embarrass ment; but certainly I am bound to state, if further alterations of the same nature are carried against me, it will again be for his Majesty's Government to consider how far it will he consistent with their duty to the public, as well as with their duty to the situations they hold, to persevere in further recommending the Bill for the adop tion of your Lordships.—(Hear, hear, from both sides of the House.) My Lords, in hopes that such alterations will not be made, I am prepared to go on with the further consideration of the Bill in Committee, and to propose such alterations as are rendered necessary by what passed last night. My Lords, it has been my most earnest wish and endeavour, as far I consistently could, in relation to that paramount duty of maintaining in full force the main principles of the Bill, to make every concession that was in my power.—(Cheers.) My Lords, I must confess that, having conceded the ma terial points of objection that applied to this particular clause, it was to me a cause of great mortification and regret that the amendment was insisted upon, which I felt myself obliged, after going to the great extent of concession I had done, to oppose. My Lords, I will now proceed to the further consideration of this clause, and also to what was stated by the Right Reverend Prelate, assenting in those observations as he did to the general principle of the clause. If any principle of the clause was infringed by the amendment of the Right Rev. Prelate, it would then be a question with me bow far it was con sistent with my honour and duty further to proceed with the Bill.—(llear, hear.) Now there were two points on which alteration had been required—first, as to the giving power to the Commissioners to give salaries not only to the incumbent and officiating minister, but to the curate ; and secondly, as to saving the rights of the Bishops.--(Hear, hear.) Now, after saving to himself what appears to me highly objectionable, namely, the giving to the Bishops an absolute veto, his Grace was pleased to assent to the proposition which I made to obviate the difficulty, observing at the same time that it was an improvement.—(Hear, bear.) Cors'qucntly, my Lords, with a view to the furtherance of thos.! two objects, I have to propose an amendment to the subsequent part of this clause, after that already proposed, the first alteration being to afford to the Commissioners the power of giving not only salaries to the incumbent and officiating minister, but to the curate, if it should be deemed expedient to make such an appointment, but also to admit Archbishops or Bishops of the diocese in which the suspended living was situated to a seat in the Council with the Com missioners pro hoc t•ice.--(Hear, bear.) Having stated thus much, nothing more remains for me to add hut to read the amendment I propose. The Noble Earl then read his amendments to the effect he had already stated, which were agreed to without opposition, and the clause, as amended, was ordered to stand part of the Bill. The clauses down to 127 were agreed to without opposi tion, but on its being proposed that that clause stand part of the Bill, The Bishop of GLOUCESTER said that he objected to it in toto. The Noble Earl had repeatedly said, that no loss or injury would result to the Bishops, or other ecclesiastical proprietors ; but he would show that the Noble Earl was in error upon that point, The object of the Bill was to improve the cultivation of land. It had been objected that the Bishops' lands in Ireland bad been worse cultivated than other lands in the country ; but this he denied, and be this as it might, the present Bill would leave the Bishops to deal with their tenants as landlords dealt with their tenants in ordinary cases. He had no wish for the spoliation or an oppo sition to the Irish Church ; on the contrary, he wished to support it. The Archbishop of DUBLIN said it was not his inten tion to oppose the clause ; but he objected to the system of lea,ing fur twenty-one years, subject to renewals every year. . Lord PLUNKET observed that no petition had been presented from Ireland against this measure, which he considered equally beneficial to the landlords, the tenants, the Bishops, and the public generally. The Duke of WELLINGTON objected to the clause, on the ground that it would place the Irish Church in a situatio❑ of deterioration, and he considered that any in terference with the Irish Church would ultimately affect the Church of England. It was the more necessary to be guarded with this Bill, as it was known that a great pro portion of the holders of estates held their property under the church. The Earl of WICKLOW supported the elau9e. The Duke of CUMBERLAND made a few observa tions which were not heard in the gallery. A(ttr a few words from Lord PLUNKET and the Bishop of GLOUCESTER, Lord I3ELAIORE said that if he thought the clause in question would be advantageous to the interests of Ireland, he would support it ; because he thought it calculated to do injury, he would oppose it. . . . _ . Lord BERESFORD said that there should be a fair and just valuation, so that none should pay too much and none too little. The Bishop of EXETER said that his Rev. Friend need not he apprehensive lest this should be drawn into a precedent. The Archbishop of CANTERBURY observed that the system was the same i❑ England as in Ireland. The Bishops in both countries derived incomes from the re newal of fines. He knew nothing about the state of Ireland, but he must say that the effect of the system of renewals in England was different from what it was in Ireland. The clause was then agreed to, as were also clauses 128 to 140. On the 140th clause being read. The Earl of BELINIORE proposed an amendment to the effect that, in futur e no lessee of Bishops' land should be liable to a higher corn rate than upon the average of the three years preceding his last payment. The Bishop of LONDON said that if the lessee were dissatisfied with his bargain, he might get rid of it if he thought proper. The Earl of CALEDON said that many tenants had expended large sums in improving the land they held, and that ought to be taken into the account. Lord PLUNKET said that tenants under Bishops' leases would not he worse off than tenants under other proprietors ; for if they thought the rest too high, they might go to the Bishop and tell him so; and should he refuse to reduce it, they might refuse to renew on the expiration of the term. The Earl of WicicLow supported the amendment, and after a few words from the Earl of BELHVE, it was negatived without a di v i s i on . The clause was then agreed to. The 141st, 142 d, and 143 d clauses were next agreed to. The remaining clauses were then agreed to without any observation. The postponed clauses were also agreed to with some verbal amendments. The schedules A and B were likewise agreed to, as was also the preamble. The House resumed. The Report was ordered to be received on Monday next. Adjourned. -.0.- MAJORITY Of 85 to 82 on the Archbishop of Canterbury's Amend ment to Clause 11`7 of the Irish Church Temporalities Bill. DUKES, Cumberland Gloucester Dorset Newcastle Wellington Buckingham BARONS, EARLS. Carnarvon Saltersford (Ear of Wicklow Courtoun) Belmore Calthorpe Rosslyn Rolle Limerick Bayning Bosse Carbery Charleville Dufferin MARQUISES. Orford Ellenborough Salisbury Verulam Meldrum (Earl of Abercorn De Grey Aboyne) Bute Brownlow C o l c hester Camden Beauchamp Maryborough Cholmondeley Eldon Ravensworth Aylesbury Falmouth Forrester Bristol Howe Bexley Vane (Marquess of Wharncliffe EARLS. Londonderry) Lynslhurst Westmoreland Melross (Earl of Had- Chcstestield VISCOUNTS. dington) Sandwich Hereford Stuart de Rothsay Doncaster (Duke of Strathallan Wy n ford Buccleuch) St. John Shaftesbury Gordon (Earl of Abingdon Aberdeen) Jersey Beresford Home BISHOPS, Airlie BARONS. London Selkirk Colville Bath and Wells Orkney Hay (Earl of Kin- Lincoln Dartmouth noul) Rochester A ylesford Dynevor Ox ford Bathurst Southampton Gloucester Digby Montagu Exeter Beverley . Kenyon Hereford Mansfield Clonfert ARCHBISHOP. Canterbury Viscount Strangford paired off' with the Earl of Lichfield on he Archbishop of Canterbury's Amendment, and Lord Redes ale with the Marquis of Clanricarde. HOUSE OF COMMONS, JuLr 26. BREACH OF PRIVILEGE. Mr. O'CONNELL, on the resumption of the House, rose again to bring forward the question of a breach of the privileges of the House in publishing the debates. His present motion was founded on the letter that appeared in the Times newspaper of to-day addressed to the editor by the Parliamentary reporters of that establishment, de elating their determination not to report Mr. O'Connell's speeches again until he had openly retracted his calumny upon the reporters.—(Hear, hear.) The Learned Gen. tleman made a direct personal charge against one reporter of the Times paper for having twice reported him " designedly false." He moved that Anna Brodie, John Joseph Lawson, and Joseph Lawson, be called to appear at the Bar on Monday next, being part of the proprietors and publishers of the Times. [The reporter alluded to immediately sought every means of disproving the Learned Gentleman's charge at the bar of the House. He lost not a moment in putting into the hand of the first Member he met in the lobby (Mr. Tennyson, the Member for Lambeth), a petition, praying permission to meet the charge at that moment at the bar; but it being informal, as he understood, for the House to receive a petition founded 1 on "the hearsay evidence of a stranger in the gallery," his petition cannot be presented till Monday. All, therefore, that he can say at this stage of the proceeding is, that he engages to disprove at the bar Mr. O'Connell's statement, so far as it applied to him; and he feels he has a right, in justice, to a hearing, before the House receives that Learned Gentleman's charge as correct.] Mr. HUME seconded the motion. He did not rise to second it on the ground on which the motion had been made, but that the question might now be fairly tried He had over and over again proposed to the House to take some measures upon this question. While persons were allowed to report what passed in that House they were hound not to withhold the statements of any one Member. —( Hear, hear.) They might exercise their own discretion as to giving more or less of the arguments on any question, but they were not warranted in withholding the argu ments of one Member, and in giving the arguments of another on the opposite side of the question.—(Hear.) He had witnessed those things being done with great regret, but he had always been of opinion that the matter would find its own natural level in the estimation of public opinion. The Noble Lord opposite (Althorp) would recollect his (Mr. Hume's) pressing on him the propriety of putting an end to that species of domination which now assumed a particular character, and which now took upon itself to declare that it would report so much of what took place and no more. Ile submitted to the Noble Lord, that no one act of his government was of more importance to the public than removing the tax on newspapers, which would he the best remedy for this evil.—(Cheers.) It had been Tell defined as the fourth power of the State—certainly it tvas a great power, hut it ought to be honest, for there was as much mischief in the sin of omission as of commission. It was necessary that this House should not be brOught into collision with their constituents, and, therefore, for the reason he bad stated, he s comical the motion, hoping that, as they had permitted the publication of their pro ceedings, the mere publication would not be considered as an offence, but the present form was adopted as the only one by which the House could take notice of it. He seconded it, in order that the House might express their opinion upon the whole proceeding. He was exceedingly anxious to see two things, first, the removal of the tax on newspapers, which would destroy the monopoly; and, secondly, that the Howe should appoint authorzed indi viduals to report faithfully and honestly the proceedings, however shortly they might be reported. Witness the proceedings on the India Bill, and on other important measures on which discussions had taken place accordingly, in order that the sentiments of the Members might go forth to the country ; it was important not only to the Members themselves but to the community, that it should be known what the sentiments of their representatives were; yet a debate of six hours on the India Bill and other Bills was comprised in about six lines. The reports should either be faithful and honest, or the gallery should be closed, and the House coald then come to some understand ing as to what should be done. He knew nothing of the patties named in the letter in the Times ; but the present motion would raise the question whether they should be reported or not, and if, or whether, the reports should not be faithful, in order that the truth might go before the public. Mr. H. CURTEIS put it to the gallantry of the Hon. and Learned Mover whether he would call a lady to the bar.—(Laughter, and cries of " Hear.") The lady named in the motion was the widow of a clergyman, and resided at Eastbourne ; and he put it to the Hon. and Learned Member whether he would insist on her coming up to London to attend at the bar of the House.--(Hear.) Mr. O'CONNELL consented to dispense with the lady's attendance. An HON. MEMBER under the gallery (name unknown) was understood to ask the lion. and Learned Gentleman to withdraw the rest of his motion. He thought, before the Hon. and Learned Gentleman brought forward a motion to charge others, he should himself see thit he had clean hands. The calve of the motion was, that all that that Hon. Member chose to say was not reported. The Hon. and Learned Member had himself published statements of what passed in that House in the News papers.—(Oh, oh.) The SPEAKER informed the Hon. Member that he did not seem to understand what the motion was ; it was to bring certain persons before the House for a breach of privilege, the privileges of the House having been infringed. An Hos. MEateEit said, that lie thought he might go the length of saying, that it could not he strictly called a breach of privilege.—(Oh, oh.) If he was in error, he would bow to the decision of the House, but he had expressed his opinion as a young Member ; and should only add, that he should vote against the motion.—(Hear.) Mr. C. FERGUSSON, who addressed the House with his back turned towards the gallery, and was occasionally inaudible to us, said, among other observations, that he agreed with the many lion. Members on his right and left who had borne testimony to the general accuracy of the reports.—(Hear, hear.) He said it might frequently occur that points in the speeches of Honourable Members might be omitted by the reporters, as not likely to fix public attention, or as not being pertinent to the sub ject—( Hear, hear)—and it should be remembered that Hm. Members might not be best qualified to estimate the value of their own speeches.—(Hear, hear.) But this did not sanction the propriety of what had been published in the paper of that day.--(Hear.) The reporters in that statement, said that " they had resolved not to report any speech of Mr. O'Connell until be shall have retracted, as publicly as he made the calum nious assertion, that our reports are designedly false.' " It was nut a question between the press and Mr. O'Con nell, but between the press and the people. He would not support any motion to establish the point that a speech was not truly re ported, for a speech might by mistake be misreported ; but it was unfair that one speech should be reported at greater length than another, and he should support the motion. Sir MATTHEW RIDLEY said that be should have objected to the motion of yesterday, but should vote for this, although he thought the Hon. Member for Dublin unwise in making it. It was a gross breach of privilege in any individual to complain of being calumniated by a Member of that House, or call upon him to apologise. He differed from the Hon. Member in politics, hut was ready to pay a tribute to his merits. As to the propo sition which was made by some Hon. Members to have authenticated reporters employed by the House, he would be prepared to show upon the proper occasion, that such a step would be highly inexpedient— (Hear, bear, hear.) H• considered that the present system, properly guarded, would be found a sufficiently correct medium of communicating to the public, as was most ne cesslry and desirable, the proceedings of that House. At the same time, he thought if the motion was now pressed, he should be hound to give it hi: support.—( Hear, hear.) Lord ALTHORP said that when the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had introduced the subject last night, he stated that he (Lord Althorp) had not considered it worthy the attention which the subject seemed to ex cite ; but be also stated that it was essential for the interests of the public that the debates of that House should be impartially executed.—(Hear.) He found that considerable difficulty might arise from the course which was now adopted ; but he also admitted that if the Hon. and Learned Gentleman chose to per- severe in his motion, it would be impossible for the House, consistently with the regard which it bore to the maintenance of its own privileges, to resist the motion. He confessed that had he been placed in the same circumstances in which the Hon. and Learned Mem ber stood, he should not have thought it worth his while to have introduced the subject to the notice of the House—(Hear, bear)—but it having been brought forward, and a statement having been made of what was an undoubted breach of privilege, he thought, if persevered in, the House could not refuse agreeing to the motion.— ( Hear, hear.) The motion was then put and agreed to. WARWICK ELECTION. Lord ALTHORP in answer to a question upon the sub• ject of the proceedings at the last election for Warwick, said it was true that a report which had been laid on the table of the House respecting the transactions at that election did contain charges of a very serious nature, as affecting the privileges of that House against a Noble Lord, the Lord Lieutenant of that county, and he was anxious, before directly answering the question, to premise, as a considerable degree of misapprehension existed in the public mind, an observation or two re lative to the situation of Lords Lieutenant of counties. He knew that Government had been fre quently accused of having permitted gentlemen to con tinue in such situations, who differed from them in poli tical principles. Now he must state that, as far as his own recollection went, it was not to be considered a political office, and that such persons had not been re moved solely from reference to political conduct.—(Hear.) There were, he believed, two exceptions within his memory, and two instances before of Lords Lieutenant being removed for political conduct ; but he appealed to those who acted with him in political life whether or not he had not expressed his disapprobation of the course then pursued by Government, and his opinion was, that no one should be removed from the office of Lord-Lieutenant, in consequence of a political offence ; but he admitted that in the present case it was different.—(Cheers.) This was a question not of political opinion merely, entertained by a Lord-Lieutenant, but a question of the Lord-Lieutenant in ter•fer ing as alleged in the report, with the privileges of this House. Now he was ready to admit that this was a very serious charge ; but inasmuch as it was a serious charge, and one affecting seriously the character and situation of the Noble Lord in question, it was necessary that the Noble Lord should have an opportunity of explaining his conduct. Such was the course which Government bad determined to pursue on the present occasion, and a letter either was, or should be, immediately written to the Earl of Warwick, stating what charges had been, made against him, and calling on him for an explanation ; it would then be for the Government to consider what steps should afterwards be taken. GLASGOW LOTTERY. Mr. ROMILLY asked the Noble Lord whether any steps bad been taken with respect to the Glasgow Lottery Act? Lord ALTHORP observed that the Bill had passed ; and that when an inquiry came to be made into the effect of making an alteration in the Act, it was found that the effect of that alteration would be to press severely on parties entirely innocent. But provision must be made against any future occurrence of the same kind ; and that lotteries, which by common consent ought to be put down, should not again take place. After a few observations by Lord G. SOMERSET and Mr. WYNN, the conversation dropped. EAST INDIA CHARTER. On the motion for reading the order of the day for the third reading ot• the East India Company's Charter Bill, Mr. C. FERGUSSON presented a petition from the Court of Directors of the East India Company, praying that the Bill might be so modified as not to be injurious to their interests ; and that they might be heard by Counsel at the bar of that House, against the Bill. The Hon. Gentleman then entered into the circumstances which followed the meeting of the East India Proprietors, of the 14th of May, but their being much noise in the House, the Hon. Gentleman observed that the House and the Press seemed both to listen to the details of this most important question with perfect indifference.—(We were really sin• cerely desirous to catch the observations of the Hon. Gentleman, but the general hue made it absolutely im possible for us to do more than catch a few unconnected sentences.) The Company objected to the changes in the Local Governments, as calculated to throw upon them a responsibility to which they ought not to be sub jected. They also objected to the ecclesiastical part of the Bill; to the addition of two Bishops and Chaplains, and to their being thus saddled with an increased expense of sixty thousand pounds a year. He desired that a reso lution might be passed, declaring that that expense should not fall on the East India C)mpany. The Company also objected to the expense of Haylebut y College, which cost them 10,0001. a year for no purpose whatever. The Hon. Gentleman moved for leave t.) bring up the petition. Mr. HUIIE seconded the motion. Mr. MILKS also supported the prayer of the petition. Mr. GRANT, if he could suppose that the great inte. rests of justice were not attended to in the Bill, or that there were any points in it not sufficiently developed, should not object to the prayer of the petition. He put it to the House, whether they were likely to receive any fur ther information on the subject? He was satisfied they would not, and should, therefore, resist the motion. After a few words from Mr. Buckingham, Mr. Hume, Mr. Macaulay, Sir Richard Vyvyan, Colonel Evans, the Solicitor-General, and Mr. Cutler Fergusson, the House divided— For the motion Against it Majority —7o On our return to the gallery, we found Mr. WILKS on his legs; but, from the noise atten dant on the rush of strangers into the gallery, we could not ascertain what was the subject of his observations. Mr. GRANT, from the same cause, was inaudible. Mr. WYNN said every man must look with horror on the system of infanticide in India; but he considered it impossible to check it by the force of law. It could only be done by influencing public opinion. Sir ROBERT INGLIS must record his own deliberate opinion, that the subject had not received from that House the consideration which its vast importance deserved. It was sufficient for his purpose to say that, on the question of slavery in Indi i—one of the most interesting that could be advanced—there had been nothing like a general or clear exposition. In reference to the judicial system of India, they had only the reports ; and he would venture to say, that not a fiftieth part of those reports had been read by a fiftieth part of the Members of that House. He must refer to the modes suggested, of bringing India nearer to Europe by the aid t f steam. Whether this could be better done by the Red Sea or the Euphrates he would not say, but merely confine himself to the expression of a hope that so important a subject had not escaped the considera tion of his Majesty's Ministers. It was not very generally known that, within the last fourteen or fifteen months, most elaborate inquiries had been made into the most safe and expeditious mode of communication, and much valuable information elicited. The passage by the Euphrates was almost uninterrupted, twenty hours being a sufficient space of time to get over the land—the passag e from India and England thus occupying only forty-three days. Another point to which he wished to call the attention of the House was, the great eeitrepot of Sin gapore, to which great en couragement opinio n , f a l ways to be g i ven. He enbe l Sir Stamford Raffles's re sid - not exceed 200 ; an d a f ter ceevebelieved there, in ought,tet residents first i n year his did o the expiration of two years they amounted to more than 10,000. Now, as to China. An expectation of an im proved and increased commercial intercourse with that people had been raised, which be really believed could not be realized. China had, for 2,000 years, been jealous of any intercourse with foreigners, and he believed that for centuries no stranger had ever been allowed to enter any other place than Canton. He did not think the present proposition for the establishment of a factory in that country to regulate our commerce with it, could be carried into effect in any such way as to secure the advantages an ticipated. He felt the argument was dangerous, and would hardly bear to be used. He believed, though ;the Chinese empire would derive considerable revenue from that which was more than half smuggling on our part ; yet if we attempted to violate the laws as, by the papers in the case of the ship Amherst it appeared had been done, and not limit the intercourse to the point they fixed on, they would soon find means of sufficient authority and vigour to dis possess them. Could it be denied that the Chinese had a right to do this? He thought it not to be denied, but it had been. Mr. Lindsay had assumed, as of course, that as we admitted them to the ports of Bengal, they were bound to admit us to China. The case of Paraguay was opposed to this, and we had never deemed it proper to interfere there; nor could we do so with advantage—for if the interference were limited, as it must be, to negotiation and remonstrance, the experience of the last 30 or 40 years had proved it would be ineffectual. He regretted the determination of the Government on this question, and thought it was not necessary to deprive the East India Company of a concurrent right in the China trade. He feared the gigantic anticipations now formed of the success of that trade would not be realized. Air. BUCKINGHAM thought that the Indians had a right to complain that the forty millions of debt which they had no hand in contracting should be put upon them, and that they should be obliged to pay the inte►est of the debt. There would come a time when that debt itself must be redeemed, and that must be done from the funds lif England, for India would never be able to redeem it, at least if the satne system under which the debt was contracted still continued. In the construction of the Indian legis lative powers, which gave to the Supreme Council the right of making what laws they p'eased, sufficient care was not taken to preserve the rights of the English community there. Now, under the old system, the Supreme Council had generally been much mere inclined than the Gover nors to use despotic powers. When the Marquis of Hastings, in the magnanimity of his own mind, took the censorship off the press, the Council by their interference induced him to impose regulations that had almost the same effect. He objected to the provisions of the Settlement Bill, and in his opinion a man ought to have the power of settling in the higher or the lower provinces just as he pleased. Passports and licenses were also unnecessary, and indeed injurious, He objected to a Church establishment in India. If Bishops were planted in India, as they would mix in high society, and . not render themselves familiar with the natives, they would produce but little effect in propagating Christianity, which it was our chief desire to extend. That must be done by the missionaries, who would go among the natives, and suffer pr,vation;; which no Bishop nor Archbishop would subrai-. to. Betides, it was the fact, that among the English familiarity was conceived to be derogatory to dignity, and from Mat prejudice the usefulness of the high dignitaries of our - Church must be limited. But then it would be said that the Bishops would travel through their extensive dioceses, and visit every part of them in turn. That would not be exceed ingly painful for them to do, for travelling was not diffi cult in India where a man was borne in a comfortable pa. lanquin—had some persons to fan him while he slept —some to bring hies water—and others to carry umbrellas and shield him from the sun ; so that he had little to do but lie down and sleep during the journey. —(A laugh.) It was bad, however, to establish a hierarchy—its spirit was always injurious. He would mention an anecdote that showed this. When the first Presbyterian church was built, while he was in India, the pastor, a most excellent man, wished that the church should have a steeple, that the two churches of Scotland and England might seem to be on an (quality. Bishop Middleton refused this— and that too i❑ a country where the Indian might build his pagodas, and the Mahometan his minaret, up to the moon, if he were able to do ir. He believed that nothing could be more advantageous to the industry of this country than the opening of the China trade. Mr. HUME expressed his regret at the absence of proper provisions relating to the administration of justice. If it was desired to make the natives attached to the Go vernment of this country, there ought to be a provision for allowing them to sit in the Councils of India. There ought, at least, to be one native in each of those Councils. Most of all he regretted that the Bill did not communicate to the natives the right of sitting upon juries, a circum stance that would materially tend to elevate the national character. At one period the right of sitting upon juries was Riven in Madras—he alluded to the administration of Sir Thomas Mont.° ; and, be was sorry to add, that on the arrival of Mr. Lushington, the natives were deprived of the privilege on the sole authority of the Governor. In order to put this matter in a clear light, he would move, in a few days, for copies of the minutes of the Presidency of Madras. Mr. YOUNG was altogether opposed to the East India monopoly, but at the same time he was desirous that as little injury as possible should be done to existing interests. He thought that some degree of precipitancy had ben shown in the formation of the Bill as far as regarded particularly the trade to China, and be complained of an arrangement made by the Directors, under the sanction of the Board of Control, by which none of the ships belong ing to the East India Company were to be fitted out and employed this season. The consequence had already been, that all the workmen had been discharged from two treat establishments interested in the question. At the expira tion of the charter, it ought to be recollected that no less than 60 millions of pounds of tea would be thrown upon the hands of Government, and how they were to proceed under such circumstances he could not foresee. He even yet hoped that some modifications might be introduced. Mr: S. MACKENZIE vindicated the framers and supporters of the Bill from the charge of precipitation, and read the extract of a letter from an officer of a ship, to show the anxious desire of the natives of China to carry on private trade independent of the East India Company. He justified the present system of Government in Llia, on account of its cheapness and responsibility ; and with regard to taxation, every anxiety existtd to render the taxation of India as light as possible. Measures were at present both in progress and operation for that purpose. A MEMBER, who stated that he addressed the House for the first time, enforced the fitness of employing natives in different situations, not only on the grounds of economy and efficiency, but because it would tend to conciliate and to give a motive to others to qualify themselves for such posts. Mr. WYNN did not remember any Bill occupying so much time and on so important a subject, which had excited so little attention, and created so little interest. He gave notice of his intention, when the Bill should have passed, to move a clause for the regulation of the Board of Council, and expressed his objection to the present number of Directors. He thought that in future only eleven should be appointed, and that any reason for con tinuing them at twenty-four would no longer exist when the Bill should have become law. At all events nothing ought to he introduced into it which would pledge Par liament to the maintenance of the present number. He should also move, in the next stage, for the omission of the words relating to the College of Haylebury, with a view to the substitution of an amendment, the nature of which he had already stated, and which referred to the election of candidates. A clause, providing that a certain number of cadetships should be given annually to the sons of old or wounded officers, he should move as a rider to the Bill. He objected to that part of the measure which rendered it necessary for the subordinate Governments to have the sanction of the Government of Bengal to any alteration, however trifling. An Ifox. MEmsEa contended for the necessity of ad mitting East India sugar and other produce into this country without those restrictive duties, which at present were as injurious to our East India subjects as they were injurious to the trader of this country. He would ask whether it was not sufficient to derive a revenue of 20,000 0001. from India for the support of our govern ment, our army, and our police? At the same time he expressed his satisfaction at the measure which had been brought forward by his Majesty's Government. Mr. CUTLAR FERGUSSON contended that when the Board of Control and the Directors differed, the lath r ought to have the power of laying the causes of such dif ference immediately before Parliament. Mr. MACAULAY observed they could already do so by petition. Mr. C. FERGUSSON maintained that they ought to be enabled to do so without being subjected to the humi liation of petitioning. He wished also to free the subor dinate Governments of India from the superiority of Cal cutta, which rendered it necessary, before they should be put in execution, to transmit them to the supreme Govern ment. Ile objected, likewise, to the clause against slavery. The power of the Governor-General, with a council of five persons to make regulations for the Courts of Justice, appeared to him exceedingly dangerous, as it enabled them, if they chose, to snake changes the most repugnant to the spirit of our have. He (Mr. C. Fergusson) thought the Supreme Courts far superior to the Chartered Courts ; and h e would venture to say, having had more experience as a legal practitioner in Calcutta than any man in England, during a residence there of seventeen years, the British residents would not willingly exchange the Supreme Court there for any other Court that might be instituted. The power of legislating for British subjects ought not to pass from the British Parliament to the Governor-General and a Council of five, or to any o th er persona ; an d it was unjust for Calcutta and Bombay to deny the protection of British I rw which bad once been extended to them. The clause gave the Governor-General and his Council of five the power of altering even the law of inheritance. He was of opinion, all the necessary instruction for persons going out to India might be had at Oxford, Cambridge, Dublin, Edinburgh, King's College, or the London Uni versity, as well as at Haylebury ; and he should vote against the clause on that subject. He objected also to take away the jurisdiction of the Court of Directors, as such a measure would tend to destroy its independence. With regard to the clause relative to the bishops, he had given his vote on the express condition that the change would occasion no additional expense; but it turned out that the expense would now be 229,000 sicca rupees, where is it was formerly only 166,000, being a very con sideralle increase. Mr. W. WHITMORE expressed his hope that the power of settling in the old colonies would be extended to all parts of oar territories. He agreed in the observations of the Hon. Member who had just sat down, that it would be dangerous to subject the Courts of Justice to the Governor-General. He wished that the political power of the Directors had been continued only for ten years, instead of 20. With respect to the restrictive duties continued upon East India sugars and other produce, he protested against them as monstrous tyranny. An HON. MEMBER, after the very small majority (only four) by which the clause respecting the Councils had been carried, regretted that Ministers had not revised it. Mr. POULETT THOMSON said, with reference to the duties upon East India produce, there were not many duties which were prejudicial to the East India producer. There were certain articles, few in number, but supposed to be of great importance, on which considerable duties were levied. He alluded to sugar and coffee. lie be lieved considerable advantage would arise if the article of coffee were admitted at the same rate from the East Indies as from the West. There was a complete monopoly of this article in favour of the West Indies, and the conse quence was, that the consumption was checked in this country as the price was increased. With regard to the powers of the East Indies to supply the country with sugar, he did not think that with the present system of cultivating sugar there, it was at all likely, whatever alteration might be made in the duties, that it would come in competition with West India sugar.--(Hear.) The reason of the cheapness of E tat India sugar at present wag, that it was generally imported as mere ballast ; so that the expense of freight might be considered as saved. At the same time be could not see any one principle of justice upon which East India , sugar ought to be pl iced on a different footing from West India sugar, if it were at all probable that the diminution of the duty would tend to increase the importation ; but the effect of it, in his opinion, would be practically nothing, and he believed the fears of the West Indians upon the subject were completely unfounded. The trade with the East Indies was now placed on a very different footing from that on which it formerly stood; and instead of a great quantity of manufactured goods being imported into this c ,untry from India, a great quantity was exported there from this country ; and it became therefore necessary to take more of V eir produce in return. He hoped that at no distant period the East and West Indies would he enabled to ex change their produce with us upon equal terms. Mr. EWART had heard with great pleasure the decla ration of the Hight Hon. Gentleman who spoke last, as he had conceded more than he expected from him. He questioned, however, whether he could not improve upon his plan. Upon what principle could he refuse the repeal of the restrictive duties, when, even upon his own con fession, that repeal would be totally inoperative ? He hoped the House would do something for itself, and he claimed the repeal of the restrictive duties in behalf of the free settlers. The Lion. Member, as we understood, gave a notice of a motion to this effect. Sir R. V YVYAN deprecated the discussion of this subject at the same time with the question of the trade to C'aina. Mr. GRANT had already stated to the House, that al though the Chinese authorities might be adverse to the trade with this country, the Chinese people were very de sirous of entering into it. Even the Chinese authorities were beginning to see the advantages—not of prohibiting, but of admitting European goods. The Viceroy of Can ton had been instructed by the Government to take mea sures for preventing the illicit trade in opium; but his answer was, that it was absolutely impossible to do so. Without any great effort on our part, he was persuaded that there would soon be a considerable trade carried on by us in the Chinese seas. It had been said that the natives had not been sufficiently mentioned in the Bill. Why, there were clauses in the Bill, the whole tendency of which was to regulate the Constitution of India in favour of the native population. It was for the sake of the natives that the Bill established the great principle—that there should be the same law for the native as for the European. The Bill was then read a third time. Mr. WYNN rose for the purpose of moving a clause, to provide that a portion of the patronage of the Company, in the bestowing of cadetships, should be directed to the families of a body of men as distinguished for their gal lantry and meths as any body of men in the world, and whose case deserved particular attention—be meant the of errs of the Indian army. Their case was, indeed, one of compassion as well as justice. The pernicious nature of the climate of India was well known, and be fore a man became a field-officer, his health was too frequently sacrificed to the discharge of his duty. As one mode of compensation, it appeared to him exceed ingly desirable that a number of cadetships should be an nually conferred upon the sons of the meritorious officers to whom he had alluded. The Directors had hitherto had the exclusive patronage on this point. He thought that if a fourth of the cadetships were assigned to the sons of the officers of the Indian army, it would not, under all the circumstances of the case, be too large a proportion ; and be begged leave, therefore, to move a clause to that effect. The clause was brought up and read a first time. O n the motion that it be read a second time, Mr. C. FERGUSSON rose, not to enter into any dis cus.ion on the subject, but merely to make a statement which was in justice due to the body to which he had the honour to belong. During the last twenty-one years 5,092 cadets had been appointed. 0 f these 429 were the sons of the Company's military officers, 401 were the sons of the officers of the King's army, 124 were the sons of the Company's maritime officers, 380 were the sons of clergymen, 1,118 were orphans, and the remain ing cadetships were distributed indiscriminately among the friends of the Directors. Mr. GRANT was not of opinion tbat any ease had been made out by his Right Hon. Friend that should in duce the House not to intrust the patronage in question to the Directors. . . Mr. HUME was not aware that so large a portion of the patronage of the Company had been impartially be. stowed, as appeared to be the case, from the statement of his Hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcudbright. Mr. WILKS hoped that, after the statement made by the Hon. Member for Kirkcudbright, the Right Hon. Gentleman would not press his clause. Mr. WYNN did not think that 429 cadetships out of about 5,000 was a sufficient proportion to be bestowed on the sons of officers in the military service of the Company. He would rather not withdraw his motion, as he was desirous that it should stand on the Journals. Mr. BUCKINGHAM observed, that in comparing the number of cadetships given to the sons of officers in the Company's service, and the number of cadetships given to the sons of officers in the King's service, they ought to tak e into account the difference in the number of King's officers and Company's officers. The firmer did not amount to a fourth or a sixth of the latter. The clause was then negatived without a division. ROMAN CATHOLICS IN INDIA. Mr. SHELL then rose to propose his clause for making due provision in India for the Roman Catholic and other churches dissenting from the Protestant Establishment, regard being had to the population of the various districts. He was one of those who were of opinion that the wisest course would have been not to make provision for any ecclesiastical establishment in India whatever. The Company had objected to any extension of the hierarchy. Those paints, however, having been disposed of, it was for the House now to consider whether is would not be expe dient to place all forms of worship equally under the pro tection of Government. The present Bill extended the hier archy. An Hon. Member for Scotland then called on his Majesty's Government to introduce a statutory provision for the protection of the Scottish Church in India. The President of the Board of Trade gave that Hon. Gentle • man an assurance that a statutory provision should be in troduced into theßill for that purpose ; accordingly, he(Mr. Sheil) found that a most important change had been made in the Bill, and that a provision had been introduced into it for the protection of the Scotch Church. He would ask what reason there was that the Church of Scotland was to be protected by statute, when the Roman Catho lics, who constituted so large a majority of the Christian population of India, were not to be protected ? 'l'h e whole amouct of the Christian population of lndi t was 800,000, of whom not less than 600,000 were Rom a n Catholics, besides a large population of Syrian Christians whose tenets differed from those of the Roman Catholics, by a very slight and evanescent line of demarcation. Th us there cl e arly appeared to be a n infinite majority of Roman Catholics in the Christian population of India. In such a vast body of the population, of whom a great nutillier were Irish soldiers, surely in all justice and good policy there ought to be the same protection as for other classes. At the present moment the eight Roman Catholic Bishops in India were maintained by the Portuguese Government, and, as had been most justly observed by a competent au- i t ) h e o B r u i t p y p , o i i t t e w d as by th a e f t o v r o e r i s g t n p G olicy i t n o m a e l l n o t. w . th b o ie9 Mr. LYNCH did not think it advisable! more than one establishment ; but, as we ono% thought that if any other th an t h e Protests dOl Church were protected, that p ro t ec ti o n ebeD elusively confined to the En g li s h an d Scotch X O O Mr. GRANT objected to the Hon. Gentles / The alteration which he (Mr. Grant) bad' nut with a view to establi s h any ecelesiastice:fieo in India, hut with a much higher and genera l sides, the clause of the Hon. and Learee could hardly he ad m itt e d, as b e i ng too genera l finite in its nature, for it proposed that .ft worship should he e q ua lly un d er t h e protec tioe i v ie ment, and that due provision should be I ° maintenance of churches dissenting from ° le o Episcop it church." This would bring under o f tion of Governm en t not mere l y C hr i st i an f ar o,' but every description of religion, even the idol o r of the Heathen sect s , many o f w hi c h were euc b t from calling for the protection of Governtel called for the most strenuous effarts for their such as those where human victims were sacti m ' Hon. and Learned Gentleman too had rather the extent of the Catholic population. • Jel li° Sir R. INGLIS thou g ht th e c l ause too In had no objection to the clause proposed by ° Learned Member, for allowing Roman Cathell 6 in India. Sir R. VYVYAN proposed an amendment , " all existing legal rights being infringed in Madras ; and Fort William, whi c h w as negat i ve d w i t hout Mr. CUTLAR FERGUSSON proposed s ti meta, which, amidst the buz in the House, We, to be in effect, that the 53d clause of the 1 3 7 j altered so as to refer not to the Governor-Ge' but to the Governor-General in council. Mr. R. GRANT said that the question had be:i an fully discussed, that be should not argue it at 6 After a few words from Sir R. VEVIrAlit GUSSON. and Mr. HUME, the House divided For the Amendment Against it Majority for the original clause Mr. HUME suggested that the expense of I L I , should not exceed the present expense by 20,000 sicca rupees. _ _ Mr. CHARLES GRANT meant to move to the clause which be thought would meet tb the Hon. Gentleman. He accordingly moved 1 , end of the 19th clause the words be added, always, that the whole expense to be incurred fo' port of the bishop or bishops, shall not be y 120,000 sicca rupees, including the visitations. Mr. C. FERGUSSON, Mr. Wzmcs, and Colon supported the suggestion of the Hon.Vdembee dlesex, which was negatived without a division. Mr. C. GRANT moved that there be added' 99 the words, "Provided always, that nothi 4 Act shall prevent the Company from granting to nities, not being of the Church of England, al.' may be necessary f or e d ucat i on or public worsh i p Mr. A. JOHNSTONE opposed the motion. clause were agr ee d t o , h ow cou ld t h ey refuse.; species of grant to t h e C at h o li cs o f th i s co u p thought it necessary to object to the clause, es be elder of the church.—(A laugh.) Sir 11. INGLIS cordially concurred in the ° to the proposed clause. Mr. R. GORDON bad hoped that no Bleetb et have been found to second the objection Dud e Hon. Member. After they had been so long l' o l j efforts to promote civil and religious liberty, he t iO to see such a s pi r i t as th a t i n w hi c h t h e °W ee brought forward was conceived. Mr. SINCLAIR was willing to incur pa t , odium of supporting this objection. Mr. PEASE t h oug h t t h at vo l untary e xerti r quite sufficient to extend Christianity in India. astonished to see persons anxious to put their 1 7,0 the pockets of the I n di ans to support t h e i r o we to o Mr. PLUMPTRE support e d th e o bj ec tion tot The gall, ry was cleared for a division— al For the clause Against it Majority for the clause Mr. C. WYNN moved a clause, the effect ui} was, that Haylehury College should he aboli tib o d that the young men already elected on the P r competition, should be sent out to India at once to ' Mr. ROBERT GRANT thought it wou!d venientto abolish such a seminary at once. The House divided— For the clause ............................... •. 461 Against it ....................................... Majority against the clause ....... •• The Bill was then pissed. SLAVERY BILL. Mr. STANLEY e xpr esse d a hops that, as t- h e ri , but few pvti ions before the House, Hon. Merob e o f raise no obstacle to this Bill, which was ov e n d importanc e , b e i ng t a k en at twe l ve o ' c l oc k on Ii.;IP It was understood that this request was a eceae,l The other orders of th e d a y were th en dispose the House adjourned at half-past two o'clock. MIND Of 90 (Teller included) w Amendment to reduce the , RITY 'ho voted for Mr. 12 ;0 period of Appreotg, ENGLAN,I,I 7 Pease, Joseph--So ll.- Vivian, rorren Sir s,l R. H. Waste) ' It.—lporic h Wilks,J.—Boston I 4ll ' SCOTL A it Gillon, W. I).—Fa''' I RELAl 4 ',;rir Finn, W. F.—Kii. e :o o, Itutilven, E. S.-- 0 "/[iv Ruthven, Edward! 0 Vigors, N. A.—Car 0 0 0 (Young, G. F.—Tyne TELLERS . Fergusson, bright Shell, R. L.—TiPPeirsl .1 - trry I, on the 26th of Jul ig heard by Coale' ENGLAS II 4 Martin, J._Tewkes p 1 ~ Methuen, P.—Nor tk Parrott, Jasper-I' ° h Pease, Joseph f _soitt co t Plumptre, J. East b y Richards, .L—Knare, j Russell, C.—Reading vtir Strickland, G.—WeOt.dtri,l Tayleur, Tennyson, Right Lambeth Tooke, W.—Truro Thicknesse, Thompson, Aid._sall6"l4 Trelawny, W. L. Turner, W.—Blackbr t Tynte, J. K.—Wre." setshire Wason, Rigby--10 s- 0' Wigney, N. —Brig . ' ,v Wilks, John—Bos t ° 9 ,4§' Win nington , Worcestershire Yelverton, Hon. marthen ENGLAND. Attwood, M —Whitehaven Beauclerk, Aubrey Wm.—East Surrey Bulwer, H. L.—Coventry ish, 'l' omas—Leominster Brotherton, J.—Salford Barnard, E. G.—Greenwich Brocklehurst, J.—Macclesfield Bruce, Lord E.—Marlborough Briggs, R.—Halifax Buckingham, J. S.—Sheffield Evans, CoL—Westminster Hume, J.—Middlesex Hudson, T.—Evesham Irton, S.—West Cumberland Jephson, D. O.—Mallow Lister, E. Cunliffb—Bradford Lyall, G.—London Ridley, Sir M.W.--Newcastle upon-Tyne MIND :Tellers included) who voted East India Company twin certain Clauses in the Bill. ENGLAND. Aglionby,l4./C.:ZoCkermouthi Attwood, Thos.—Birmingham Bainbridge, E. T.—Taunton Barnett, C. J.—Maidstone Beaueleilt, A. W.—E. Surrey Bish, T —Leominster Blake, Sir F.—Berwick Brigstock, W. I'.—East Somer . sashire . -- -- --• Briscoe J. I.—East Surrey Brocklehurst, J.—Macelestield Buckingham, J. S.—Sheffield Buller, Charles—Liske a rd Calley, T.—Cri c kl a d e Cayley, E. S.—North Yorkshire Chandos, Marquis of—Bucks Chichester, J. P.l3.—Barns taple' Darlington, ngt Darlion, E ar l of—South . . Shropshire Dashwood, G. H.—Bucks Etwall, IL—Andover Evart, %V.—Liverpool Evans, Wm.—Leicester Faithfull, G.—Brighton Fancourt, Major.—Barnstaple Fielden, John—Oldham Gaskell, D.—Wakefield Gisborne, T.—N. Derbyshire Gore, M.-I)evizes Gully, John—Pontefract Holcomb, J.—Dover Handley, Henry—Lincolnshire Handley, Wm. F.—Newark. upon-Trent _ _ SCO'rLA . ., I4 ,t II. O IO " Agnew, Sir A.--"ltX (Mon . , W. D.—Fat I deoi ,l Johnston, A.__St. Sinclair, G.—Caith l, ' Baldwin, l lllH L . A -- -14 A Cj'° µ 1; Blake, Martin—t.„olor Finn, W. E_Kill‘Vie Grattan, J.—Co. °cid Lynch, A. H O'Connell, D.—J- 14 _, - Yie O'Connell, Morgan.,-.04,40 O'Connell, John -- 150'; O'Dwyer, A. C. .„011, 0 , ltuthven, E. Ruth yen, E.—Kilda r 9 Shell, B. L.—TipP e 'ol Sullivan, R.- 101 90 r Vigors, N. A.—C 3 ,' w Wallace, T.—Carl ° TELLER' Oe IP Buxton, T. E W e pl CA ' 'ff t , PAIRED OFF ,' ,tot Guest, J. J.—Me r :.. 7 Handley, Benjafl p' e ls° r, n favour of Mr. T o liii,to ;eauclerk and Ads o g y ton's motion, and' ision. 60 /I'l _ i l l :, ' f it E OATH.—The whole scene in .e e o , o rj pint]," in which the dying VERNON—meant, " 0 - 01)1,, for SHERlDAN—imposes on his daughter a° jo vote herself to the abasement of the aristocra c il ite l i ol ; one of the most powerful, affecting, and v l(ll° l',.. ceived compositions in the English langtoge,be dents in this novel are evidently taken front ' sbeol,v two things are equally apparent, namely--.that d 1 0 0` o f has mixed extensively in the world of politi c ' : % 1” .,4 1 1 .4 and also that he is a disippointed man. T h 7 - I ,ef F y one band, we cannot approve the bitter vein o be otP which runs through this production, yet, 00 t i ef e, cannot sufficiently deprecate the black ingratitiohe.4 ef . l, e d( o towards one who had devoted his fortunes, I : O P and his life to their cause, of which V11' 41.4° melancholy instance. Hahly, John—Bradford Harland, W. C.—Durham Hawes. Benjamin—Lambeth Howick, Visc.—North North umberland Hudson, T.—Evesham Humphery, John—Southwark Hutt, «'m.--Hull Ingilby, Sir i\l. — A.—Parts of Lindsey, Lincolnshire Kemp, 'l'. It —Lewes Knatchbull, Sir K—East Kent Lennox, Lord W.—King's Lynn Lamont, Norman—Wells Langton, IVm. Gore—East So- rni;rset'sli i re Leech, J.—West Surrey Lowther, Col.—Westmoreland Lister, E. Cunliffe—Bradford LushingtonDr.--'fowerHamlets Marjoribanks, S.—Hythe Admiral Fleming paired off tion on the 23d inst. Major B 4 paired Win favour of Mr. litixt accidentally shut out on the divi: ASSIz je•X:eprii, O B I! , J ohn ; ,, gozez tiatr at 7 a ns, task " and o f : I t 't a fleet e' k L I Y, a i t , a 's ' s of I: o e , hibble ro ed tit P"li e-ho: s ar, l 'Ci tr i 'ghlY b that I j • Hill and a rVey, rush( e difficult; th ey had then th at Marsh w - '''isted in ass t ,..the Jury fi bakers az IlL '4 ,ent , a r4"`" ,s, l3abin % qv imPri Til e v. a n ie( th auy etal S~rZea4al form 'f, abet H e i ,~