The Sun. — London, England, 1830-03-19 00:00:00

e who rency, ound, inch a since dimi been bad .mt to lenee were every eater Luau t was could them !turn tions , and Id to wing 'here jest; ,ccess Of . for . lder ;erne Ider were were from fully • low Ile of more than ordinary comfort. The hand-loom weavers Were, on the'c en t rary, suffering great:distress, labouring every day at lower and lower prices, until they had reached a price which was inadequ tie to provide them'with either food or clothing. Their children, who got employment in the factories, were receiving tolerable wages; but the hand-loom wearers never had been in a state of so much deprivation, and there was no hope of any improvement. It had been contended by an Hon. Member near him --an Alderman of the City of London (Waithman)—that trad e was in the manufacturing districts at the very lowest ebb, and constantly carried on for several years at a great loss ---that the merchant had ceased to export, and the manufacturer manufactured in vain, and without the slightest demand. He was quite ready to admit that the merchant had ceased to export at his own risk, and that the manufacturer exported his own 'goods. This seemed to revers e the order of trade, and seemed to be at variance with improvement ; but he contended that this doing away with the middleman, as it were, was a great gain to the manufacturer, and attended with one obvious advantage to the consumer, namely, that it placed one profit the less on the price of the goods. But besides that, it was a dimi nution of risk to the manufacturers. In ordinary times the manufacturer gave the merchant who ordered goods from him for exportation a credit of eighteen months, and thought himself lucky if he got paid in two years. Now, howeve r , t h e manufacturer manufactures factures goods for expor tation at his own risk ; and it was one of the best advan - tages of the increased facility of communication, that the Birmingh am or Manchester man was enabled to send his goods abroad without the expence and the risk of the inter vention of the merchant or middleman. Besides all that, however, the Alderman should understand that the manu facturer who, is thus become his own merchant, does not manufacture himself the 20th part of that which lie ex ports. lie buys the linen cloths and the cotton yarn from others general trade. The Hon. Alderman contended, he recol lected, that this trade was carried on at a loss. He (Sir G. Phillips) denied that. It was carried on at a advantages, and great advantages, else why had it been crried on for so man at all ? It was absurd y y to supp ose i t would be continued if loss was the certain consequence. Another doctrine of the Hon. Alderman's was, that the manufacturers did not look much to the price of the raw material, and that it was of little con sequence whether cotton was a sixpence dearer or a six pence cheaper. Why, nothing could be more erroneous. 11 A manufacturer calculated the one-eighth of a penny in the pound, and if he could buy at that one-eighth of a penny cheaper he did so. It was by attending to advan tages of that kind that so many large fortunes had been realized in the course of the last few years. As to the complaints of the worthy Alderman and others about machine ry , all he could say was, that they were not new ; that they bad had machinery for the last 30 years; and that th e di stress was not greater now than during those _ period s w h en machinery formed no part of their corn that P lai nts. Upon th e w h o l e , h e was o f opinion,yet although th e profits of trade were undoubtedly small, , y ''t there were profits in every branch of industry ; and although cap i tal might not be increas i ng very fast, or so fast as some supposed, yet it un d ou b te dl y was in- Creasing, He thought, however, with the Honourabl e Member for Bridgenorth (Mr• Whitmore), that the country was placed in circumstances which required the Most watchful circumspection on the part of the Govern ment. He rejoiced that they had determined to lighten the public burthens--he thanked them for what they had done; and while he praised the liberality they had dis i played in their domestic policy, he regretted that it had ' j not been extended to their foreign negotiations. The plan of lightening taxation on some points, in order to increase the consumption in others, was highly praiseworthy; and he hoped that the doctrines of the Right Hon. Gent, the Master of the Mint (Herries), as laid down the other day, would he followed by the Government. He hoped, too, that some alteration would be made in the system of mono polies, and particularly in that of corn ; but, in common with every person connected with the county of Lancaster, he implored them not to make any alteration in the cur rency. They had now the best currency in the world, and they wished to keep it, as they were satisfied that any attempt to tamper with it, or oven to introduce silver as a standard as well as gold, would only enable foreigners to defraud us. It was said there was a scarcity of money in the manufacturing districts. He knew as much of them as any one, and he never recollected money more plentiful in his neighbourhood, which was one of the extensively manufacturing. No man who had property could say he Was not able to obtain money. There was ne scarcity of ' currency with them when means justified credit. The Hon, Baronet concluded by observing that as he did not t hink any relief could be afforded to the really distressed by the enquiries proposed in the motion of the Hon. Mover (Mr. Davenport), or i n t h e amendment proposed by the l ion. Bart. (Sir C. Burrell), and as he thought, on the r contrary, that an acqu i escence i n e i t h er of the motions F Would leash to delusive hopes which never could be realised to expectations of improvements which Parliament had not the power to execute, he should feel it to be his duty i to vote against both motion and amendment.—(Hear.) i Mr. ESTCOURT, jun., said that the subject was too delicate for a Member so young as be was to presume to pronounce au opinion on it, but he might say that the pre sent state of the country excited in him feelings of pain and deep concern, and that he could not look on the future without the most frightful forebodings. He thought that in a Committee the question of the public distress was likely to receive a better consideration than it could do in the House. Sir H. VIVIAN did not deny that considerable distress existed; but was persuaded that many of the statements of it were greatly exagg era t e d . He entertained no despair of the ceuntry ; but, on the contrary, felt convinced, that however serious the difficulties might be with which it was beset, it would rise superior to them all. With respect to the low prices, some of the causes of them were, in his opinion, sufficiently obvious. During the war, our manu• facturers and merchants had a monopoly of the markets. Plow, however, they were obliged to enter into a competi tion with the foreign manufacturers and markets. Now, as one-fifth of our industry was employed in the supply of the foreign markets, our experts being between fifty and sixty millions, and as the prices we obtained in the foreign markets must govern our prices at home, he thought there j was little difficulty in accounting fur the low prices. Among the causes assigned by various persons for the existing dis tress were over production, superabundant population, ma chinery, free trade, taxation, and the state of the currency. As to orerepreduction, the only consequence, as it appeared to him, of our producing less would be to throw a number of persons out of employment. With respect to super abundant population, to a certain extent the population might be said to be superabundant. But he should be very sorry to see the population diminished by the means recom mended on a recent occasion by an Hon. Gent., and he trusted that the House would never forget-- " That a bold peasantry, their country's pride, When once d estroyed, could never be supplied: " M achinery, in his opinion, so far from producing the dis tress,ae most hav e greatly contributed to prevent its in , since it gave employment to millions, who would be otherwise desti tute :aaosecohnsidered among of it. A great portion of what the middle classes to be distress that had o t Was persuaded, out of the extraordinary change dulged iaaken place in th h. bits of the people, who in never dreamt ; and an extravagant expence of which their forefathers that expence, felt the Who brig now compell T ed be t n o e c e urtail under which they were of dis e c n har ".m g rel a y. number of necessity servants, had also added to the general g'n difficulty. Ile had d s accurate to as he could into the real fa of the case, and that of mer.e especially with respect . to the pa rish,'sled. The Hon, Lynn, la Hampshire, in which he himself resided. • lion. Gentleman here read a statement, by i t aPPeared, that although from 1813 to 1829, the poor 's- rate had increased from 2,7001. t o 3,200/, the po pulationn ! rom i of the pari s h f rom 1811 to 1829 had increased as 30,t00 to ~ pan at all surp r i s i ng - 5,000. Under this l a tt er c i rcumstance , i t 0 county of th e q that th ere s h ou ld b e an i ncrease m i ni pers. The Hon. G en tl eman t h en entered i nto a uantity of tin an d copper ra i se d i n t h e Y of Cornwall in 1813, 1814 and 1815, es com pared with the quantity raised in the last years ; and main tained that a w t • : ! aatlitebiencrease, combined with the foreign com petition far, however cause of the present low prices. He was , from thinking low prices an evil. If it tsvbeeren,7coetasfaor the low prices of hemp of tallow, and of all be thrown viel o o u r t lif_e i, tette of thousands of people would and thousands of tons of shippi ng I "' employment, vould be laid up. As to free trade, he was convin . distress ; and he w a l a . led that it had nothing to do with the presence of the i li `', lappy to make that avowal in the when the prin c i ple " lion. Member for Liverpool, as he had expressed a;nefe freeai)p trade t e l, e li , sa i Were originally Nvith re respect e d e i discussed, s t e l c i l e , result of their a try. In him . )ifipllcatiott to the commerce of the coun briefly thi s : that a s the great principle of free trade was the countr y p rridu . s d inn g as any of the manufacturers of an entire demand je,e, i a commodity for which there was them by dutiea ; be:tii': home market we might protect a foreign market to sellal When they be regulated by the price lsir were obliged to go to c ommodity, the price Inuit turers were able to bri . at. which the foreign menthe ‘ market. This, as he Iriagd the seine commodity into the ' causes of the diruillislied before observed, w a s one o f t h e price of the p ro d uce o f th e B Cornish mines, ut still, unl subject was v er y i ncorrect ess his information on the there e was no distress in the county of Cornwall, notwithstanding the low prices. In the meantime those low prices had been very beneficial in other respects. What would our shipping—what would Birmingham and other manufacturing towns have done had the price of copper remained high? It was clear that to the low prices thousands of persons were in debted for their present employment. But it was asked how could we go on with such low prices, and with such heavy taxes on agriculture ? lie did not believe that those taxes bore especially on agriculture. He believed that they bore generally on the consumer ; that they bore on the whole property of England. He considered available property to be property which a man possessed beyond taxation. If he had 1,0001. a year, and paid 5001. in taxation, he should consider that he had 5001. of available property. If that 5001. at the present prices would purchase as much as 1,0001. when the prices were high, be should have no right to complain. He would advert shortly to the remedies which had been suggested for the existing state of things. In the first place, there was what had been called equitable adjustment. He had heard with the utmost astonishment what had fallen upon that subject from the lion. Member for Colchester. That Hon. Member ought to recollect that what was law was not always justice, and that what was equity was not always equitable. It would be the extreme of injustice to make any attempt at reducing the property of th e fun.;holder, and he trusted that no such attempt would ever be made. Of this too he was persuaded, that if a sponge could be applied to the national debt to morrow, the country would derive little or no benefit from the operation. The visits of the tax-gatherer would be ex changed for those of the parish overseer; and the popu lation of our exchanges and markets would be transferred to our workhouses. The reduction of taxation was one of the remedies which had been insisted on. It was un doubtedly the duty of Ministers to reduce taxation as much as was consistent with the public service; and they had done that duty. But he was not one of those who fancied that any extraordinary relief could be derived from such a source ; and he was one of those who would be very sorry to see the principle of reduction carried to such an extent as would compel us to disband our army, dis mantle our navy, and close our arsenals and dock yards. lie trusted, to use the eloquent words of a late Right Hon. Gent., " that the Sovereign of this country would never be reduced to sit on a degraded throne." A change in the currency was another of the nostrums recommended ; nostrums so numerous, that they reminded him of some doggrel lines, with which he was familar when at school One doctor physic'd him and purg'd ; A second bleeding strongly urg'd ; A third a tonic mixture tried ; Among them all—the patient died." Ho bad frequently heard of people being music-mad ; but he believed that some Hon. Gentlemen were currency. mad. His view of the currency question was this—that if, as had been asserted, the substitution of gold for paper had produced a change of five and twenty per cent, in the price of commodities, that proved that the former price was artificial. It was impossible to maintain a paper cir culation while we kept up a commercial intercourse with foreign countries. We could not buy bread at home with paper, and cotton abroad with gold. If we were to re turn to paper to-morrow, we should speedily have two prices, a gold price and a paper price, as we had for merly ; even although the House should again adopt a resolution declaring that gold and notes were equivalent. He was delighted, therefore, to hear his Majesty's Mini sters declare that they had no intention of proposing any change in the currency. He apologised to the House for having trespassed so long upon their attention, and thanked them for their indulgence. What he had said was not said in a spirit of hostility to any interest. Agri culture and manufactures must flourish together. Although his particular interest did not lie in that way, yet cer tainly, if be were called upon to give a preponderance to either, he would throw his weight into the agricultural scale. But not conceiving that to be necessary, and being persuaded that no measure could be adopted, the tendency of which would be materially beneficial to any interest, he must oppose the motion.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. LIDDELL declared himself prepared to support the motion of the Hon. Member near him, though he trusted that in doing so, he incurred no risk of being un derstood to pronounce any opinion condemnatory of the motives of his Majesty's Government. He was willing to gire every credit to the Right lion. Gentlemen on the other side of the House for the uprightness of their inten tions, and for the earnest zeal with which they endeavoured to promote the interests of the country, as it appeared to them ; but he must be allowed to say, that his views of the true interests of the country, and what its necessities at the present moment demanded, were quite opposed to the course which the Ministers of the Crown appeared deter mined to persevere in adopting. There was one proposi tion on which he would mainly rely, and which he did not apprehend that any lion. Member would attempt to con trovert—namely, that at the present moment there was not profitable employment for the capital of the country._ Notwithstanding the low rate of interest at which money could be borrowed, there were not to be found traders in the United Kingdom who could see any profitable means of embarking it in any speculation whatever : that, he be lieved, was true of nearly every branch of commerce and manufactures. Was that, then, a state of things in which the Government and Legislature of the country were to allow things to take their course—were they to say to the people that they must wait for the operation of natural causes, and not look to any amelioration of system for that relief of which they now stood so deeply and alarmingly in need? Amidst the various departments in which dis tress prevailed, if there was one which stood peculiarly forward it was the shipping interest. He had within a short time received a communication, in which it was stated that the spring freights opened at rates one ninth lower than the former year; and in every point of view, however much they might have suffered last year, the present was infinitely worse than any preceding season. Those were facts, and facts well authenticated—facts which he believed would receive no contradiction ; it was therefore that he stated them, and confined himself to them, for he might easily procure a variety of other state ments, if possible more strong, respecting otLer depart ments of trade and manufactures ; but he had no wish to exaggerate the distresses of the country. They were alarm ing and severe enough, without adding to the pressure of them by overcharged descriptions. One of his grounds of complaint against Right lion. Gentlemen opposite was the manner in which they met the present motion. They ap plied themselves in the course of the debate to any tiling rather than what formed the question at issue. Thus, on the first night of the present debate, the Right Honourable Gentleman (the President of the Board of Trade) advanced with much form to the discussion of the motion, and when he came to the most important branch of it he suddenly started off and declined entering upon it. He confessed that never on any similar occasion did he experience a greater disappointment than when the Right Hon. Gentle man declined to enter upon the considerations connected with the state of the currency and the mode in which it affected the present distresses. He declared himself unable to comprehend how any Member of that House could pro fess to inquire into the distresses of the country, and pass by altogether a matter so intimately connected with them as the state of the currency—a matter which many held to be amongst the chief causes of that distress. For his part he must say, that nothing was better worthy the at tention of Parliament--nothing which at the present mo ment could better occupy their attention, than to consider whether, without debasing the currency, it might not be so far replenished by a judicious issue of paper as would give a salutary stimulus to manufactures, and revive tne suffering commerce of the country. He thought that a Com mittee might be very usefully employed in investigating the best mode of carrying so desirable an object into practical effect. The Committee might also advantageously direct their labours to the subject of an improved system of banking, more calculated for the necessities of a commercial community than that which at present existed in this country. He had not the slightest hesitation in expressing his opinion that the standard ought to be changed ; and to this he would add, that he felt no doubt whatever that if the well-known measure which bore the name of the Right Hon. Gentleman, and would continue to be known as his, were again to be proposed to Parliament, its authors would shrink from pressing it upon the acceptance of the Le gislature, and sure he was, that if they were to go the length of doing so, Parliament foreseeing all the evils that have since arisen from that measure, would reject it in a manner the most marked and decided. He was satisfied, that were the same Bill to be proposed over again, the con sent of Parliament could never he obtained to any thing so unjust and oppressive to the country. However the deed had been done, and it was no the duty of all—when no perfect remedy was practicable—to do what the circum stances of the case admitted ; it was the duty of every man in the country to do the utmost he possibly could for the relief of the country; and it was the duty of every Member of that House to apply himself sedulously and seriously to the discovery of what might be done towards meeting the present emergency. He went Ito ther, and would say that they ought to co-operate with his Majesty's Government in everything that they undertook for the public good; for the existing Administration was, generally speaking, well deserving the confidence of Parliament and of the country. There was no set of gentlemen, on either side of the House, whom he should more desire to see in the Councils of his Majesty. He believed that a change of men could work Ino beneficial results—that none could be found to assume the reins of Government with better prospects of success than the Right Iron. Gentlemen opposite, though he must qualify this testimony in their favour by repeating his ob jection to the course they hail thought proper to take in reference to the present motion. So much he felt boumi to say in vindication of himself, and in justice to the country and the Administration. Mr. COURTENAY would state shortly his views to the House upon this most important occasion, in com mencing to do which, he could not help saying that those who were loudest in their expressions of sympathy with the sufferings of the people, were the slowest to bring forward any measures of relief, or to pledge themselves to any definite proposition for the benefit of the country. It had been made matter of repeated accusation against the Government, that at different times they had attributed the public distress to variou3 and contradictory causes. First, they were accused—rather they should say not the present Government, but several successive Govern.. ments were accused—of attributing the distress, some years, to a transition from a state of war to a state of peace. Now he believed that, at this distance of time, there was no one who looked at the condition of the country at that period, could doubt that the distress then prevailing was to be ascribed to that cause. At that period, the mere disbanding of the Army and Navy was in itself a considerable source of public inconvenience, and one of the most active causes of public distress ; and he believed, that if the other causes to which, in truth and in justice, his Majesty's Government felt bound to impute the distress, were fairly examined, they would prove not less to have produced the effects ascribed to them. In his opinion, the mistakes most frequently made consisted in supposing that any practical measure to be introduced by the Government could remove at once an extended evil, and one, the causes of which were, in many instances, beyond the reach of legislation. In the case of the public distress which took place at the beginning of the present peace, it was to be observed, that not only was there the transition with all its at tendant evils, but those to whom the administration of public affairs was then entrusted had the additional diffi culty to encounter of a totally altered state of things in all the relations of the country—agricultural, manufacturing, and commercial. Over-production was the next cause to which the public embarrassment was attributed. Of the reality of that cause—of its wide and powerful operations, he believed there would now be as little doubt as of any proposition which could possibly be announced. Not alone in England, but all over the world, did over-production prevail. Then with peace came the loss of much that we possessed during the war—many sources of commercial wealth we possessed through and by the war ended with it —many advantages incompatible with a state of peace were lost likewise; added to these were the effects of over-production, klt in common with the rest of the world. All those causes, though different, were real and effectual in their operations, and with them was combined the com petition, which reduced prices to a level before unknown, and produced an amount of public distress which every one who aimed at popularity ascribed to all imaginable causes. The Bank Restriction Act, he certainly was ready to admit, was not without its share in producing much of the public embarrassment which at different times had arisen; that measure gave a fatal facility to improvident specula tion, and produced great injustice to many portions of the community. That restriction having been at length re moved, and it not having been proposed by the Hon. Mem ber who spoke last to repeal the Bill of his Right Hon. Friend, it would be unnecessary for him to enter upon that topic. He heard no distinct proposition for the restraint of cash payments, and therefore he felt the less culled on to enter upon that subject. He could not, however, pass to any new topic without observing that the suffering of the several crises to which lie adverted was aggravated by un favourable seasons. In every instance, however, the effects produced by the weather were laid upon the Ministers, and they were held responsible for the dispensations of Provi dence. The Hon. Member for Newark said of the Minis ters, that they sometimes complained of the seasons, some times as being too wet, and sometimes too dry, as though such a complaint was self-contradictory. Now to his mind it appeared the best founded and consistent mode of accounting for distress that could easily be imagined. Might not the Hon. Gent. himself on some occasions find his roast beef under-done, and at other times over-done, without seeing much cause to blame his cook.—( Hear, hear, and a laugh. ).._Again, another class of Hon. Members, who professed to represent the discontents of the country, that the public establishments ought to be reduced, and taxes repealed ; he thought the time had at length arrived when a cry of that kind ought to cease. Since the termination of the war forty per cent. of the taxes had been repealed, and the public establish ments proportionally reduced. But with objections of that class it was unnecessary any longer to contend. The real object of those who opposed themselves to the views of his Majesty's Government upon a question of that nature was, to procure a return to the small note system. Now he would inquire in what way (lid they suppose that the small note system would restore the prosperity of the country; was there a want of circulating medium in the United Kingdom ?—(Hear, hear.)—lf so, he wished they would supply Parliament with some more satisfactory evi dence of that fact than had yet been adduced. Did they mean to say, that the whole gold and paper circulation, taken together as it at present stood, was insufficient for the occasions of the country, and less than in its present state it required.—(Hear, hear, frosts Members on the Op position side.)—lf such was their view, he begged to be ex cused on that occasion from entering into any detailed re ply to them. He would not then go into the statements and calculations necessary for rebutting an opinion so ill founded ; for lie thought that in doing so he should be but abusing the patience of the House, and wasting its time, in insisting upon truths already acknowledged by the great majority both of the legislature and of the snore intelligent portion of the community. But this much, however, he would say, that if a return to the small note system, by increasing the circulating medium, produced the required remedy, he would gladly learn what there was to prevent that remedy being made to produce all its beneficial effects by the increase to the circulating medium being made in addition to the present gold and paper circulation. That, he believed, was not the sort of remedy which lion. Gentlemen opposite required—they wanted the small notes, because the country banker was more ready to lend one-pound notes than sovereigns or five-pound notes ; for they knew that if the one-pound note once got into circu lation, it would not speedily come back. It was his ear nest wish that they should not again return to the small note system ; for he was satisfied that if the one-pound notes once got out, they would drive all the gold out of circulation. He confessed that he had no desire to see the disposition of the country banker to lend his money increased by any legislative enactment. At the present moment, he believed there was little difficulty in any man who had good security in obtaining advances of cash from bankers possessed of sufficient capital for that purpose. He was far from denying that a return to the one-pound notes might produce for the moment a change in the aspect of commercial affairs apparently beneficial. The return to the one-pound notes might give a temporary stimulus to agriculture ; but that would soon be followed by a corresponding exhaustion. He was aware of the answer that might possibly be given to all that. Why, it might be asked, not establish a more secure system of banking than had yet been seen to exist? To his mind, increased security would bring with it but increased motive and means for driving the gold out of the country. To in crease the security of the country bankers would be afford ing a certainty that the one-pound notes would wiser sede the gold. The times would necessarily come when the demand for gold would increase, and when, without any public distrust of the hankers, their notes would flow in upon them snore rapidly than they could have the means of meeting. He need not then point out that runs and bankruptcy must be the con sequence. As to the course of argument which the Hon. Member for Newark had thought proper to take up, lie hoped he might be allowed to say that it was most un usual, and utterly unsupported by facts. He must be allowed to tell that lion. 'Member, that if he continued to censure the Government fur laws to which they were not more parties than others—and he might add, to which they were not score parties than a very large proportion of those whom be was then addressing—he would denounce that Hon. Member to his country as a betrayer of his trust. It was that Hon. Member who manifested the apathy of which he was forward to accuse others. There was no part of the present distress, or of any of the for mer difficulties with which the country had to contend, which could be attributed to causes over which any Go vernment could exercise controul. Great stress was laid upon the remission of taxation. Taxes had been remitted. Distress was talked of, when unfavourable seasons were the cause. If the Hon. Member for Newark did not come forward with some specific measure, upon which his cha racter and reputation might stand pledged, lie (Mr. C.) would denounce him as a wordy man, without meaning or substance.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh. )—He Mr. C.) was a plain matter of fact man—(A laugh)—and spoke his mind without equivocation or reserve, ever ready to ac knowledge genuine desert. Notwithstanding all that the Hon. Member for Newark had said upon the subject of free trade, both in the former night of the present discus sion and on other occasions, he (Mr. C.) had not the slightest hesitation that free trade, as an experiment, had fully succeeded ; lie was no theorist—he was a plain, prac tical roan ; but there was no man of candour, and of the most moderate information, who could doubt that all classes of society, and all departments of trade, were benefitted by the alterations made in our foreign commerce. He had not been in office for two seasons, and he could assure the House that he entered upon his present situation with the most earnest desire to do all he could to advance the public service and promote the interests of the country in the most effectual and permanent manner. He came to his present place as free from prejudice and pre-conceived opinion as any man could po.sibly be—exactly in the situation so justly described by that unfortunate exr.ression of which he feared he should never hear the last.—lle must declare, as an honest and candid man, that the result of the free trade ex periment had been most beneficial, and not to say so would be the height of injustice to the Hon. Member for Liverpool. There was nothing that could more illustrate the benefits of the system of free trade, so far as it had been carried into effect, than the state of the prices of all articles of consumption at the present moment. The Hon. Member for Newark had told them that he was a friend of free trade; it was possible—men had different modes of showing their love for any thing, and that Hon. Member had certainly adopted a strange course with a view to show his approbation of the free trade system; for he had told them that if we were to admit the produce of other nations, we ought to he allowed to send them ours in return. He (Mr. Conrtenay) was almost ashamed to argue the question at this moment ; for the answer to that observation was so perfectly obvious. Surely no one would pretend that fo foreigners gave us their produce—if not, then we must pay for it; but how was the payment to be made? It was said that we gave them money; be denied it; but even if we did, how was that money obtained ? how could it be procured, except for our goods, with which, in fact, we paid for the produce of other nations (Hear, hear.)—lf the Committee should be granted, and that Hon. Member would go before the Committee to give evidence on the subject, he would turn over the Hon. Member to the Member for Dover, who was a practical man, and who would cross-examine him on the subject; and if the Hon. Member for Newark would agree to put his answers in six lines each, without either epigram or metaphor, and would undertake to shew that we could get the products of foreign countries without paying for them m goods or in money, and if in money, that we could pro cure the money without goods, he would give up the ques tion at once.--(Hoar, bear.)—He could not but think ' that it would be rain to go into aCommittee; for no other question hut that could be submitted to their consideration, and on that both the Government and the House stood pledged. lie would only add, that he should oppose the motion. Sir R. R. VYVYAN believed that the nation was in a very bad state, and that the financial difficulties of the country were such, that unless something could be done to ' relieve us from their pressure, it was not improbable that that House might not meet three Sessions more without having witnessed some extraordinary changes. He had been much surprised at a declaration made in the course of this evening's discussion, that the distress had been much exaggerated, and that it was not so general as it had been represented. He would not go into any detail of the exist ing distress ; but would merely observe, that he had expe rienced great satisfaction on hearing, in the course of last Monday evening, the Chancellor of the Exchequer admit that the distress was great, and that it pressed very heavily upon the people, and in consequence of it he came down to the House with a proposal to reduce three millions of taxes. After such an admission and such a proposal, the Right Hon. Gentleman near him ought to have considered how far it was advisable or politic to deny, as he had done to night, the existence of great or general distress. He (Sir R. Vyvyan) was aware that he spoke in that House under considerable disadvantages. He knew that he was address. ing an assembly which thought him an Ultra, although, on the only measure in which those who were really Ultras discovered themselves, he and the party with whom he had the honour to act, had not shown themselves to deserve that appellation. But there were Ultras in Eng land—aye, and within that Housc—Ultras that might be Tories, but that were not Tories, who supported the Government. The question now was, what was the in ternal state of the country—did distress exist or not ; and if it did, was the agricultural or was the manufacturing interest most affected by it. They had been told that the agricultural interest suffered most—hut none seemed to agree upon the question of what were the causes of this most extensive distress. Some said it was a surplus po pulation—some the system of the poor laws—hut almost all admitted that great and general distress existed, and that there was some wide-spreading disease in the body politic. He would refer to the first of thesee alleged causes. With regard to the evil of a surplus population, he was one of those who believed that there was no such thing as a surplus population. The effects attributed to a surplus population might exist where the supposed cause of these effects was, in reality, unknown. Under the present sys tem of poor laws, with the practice of having large farms, and considering the way in which the wages of the labo rious part of the community were reduced, there might be a surplus —or, - s at least, the country might have arrived at a state in which, with one-half of her present population, it would be said that there was-a surplus population. He was surprised that any gentleman could have alluded in the manner the Right Hon. Gentleman had done to the opinions ' of the Hon. Member for Newark, whose work in favour of free trade ought to have protected him from such observation, as it was well known to all men as highly favourable to the principles of free trade. He must ex press his surprise with regard to the free trade question and the exportation system having been introduced by his Majesty's Ministers as the only proof of the returning prosperity of the country. The Right Hon. Gent. who had adverted to that subject this evening, had done so in a most positive manner. His mind of blank paper had now the broad principles of free trade fairly written upon it; • and amongst these principles, that first axiom of the sup porters of that system—that we should find our market where we could find it cheapest. If that axiom was only followed up as it ought, the Corn Laws should at once be attacked.—(Hear, hear.)—Yet he did not think that the Right Hon. Gent. would be likely to recommend such a measure, or the House very likely to attend to his recom mendation, if be should be disposed to make it. He would now return to tie question, as to what was the cause of the present distress. He was not one of those who was ac customed to complain of the improvements in science ; but he found that the Prime Minister had, in another place, declared that the immense and rapid growth of machinery had been among the causes of the present distress. He thought there was much truth in that declara tion; machinery had been rapidly improved, and its sphere of operation most widely extended ; and he be lieved that it would be productive of immense advan tages in future times, but that the present generation must suffer from it as from an evil. He thought, there. fore, that it was not alone to the state of the currency, nor to the introduction of the system of free trade, but to these and a variety of other causes—to a course of cir cumstances, indeed, to which no sovereign was powerful enough nor any philosopher wise enough to be able to afford a present remedy. These causes had, indeed, been urged into increased effect by the actions of Ministers. In 1821 it was said that it was utterly impossible to force the markets of the world, or to produce more in this country than could be consumed in the new States of South Ame rica, which were fast rising into political and commercial importance. That doctrine was most fully acted upon in this country in 1825, and the consequences were well known. In his opinion the Government of that day had, in a great measure, instigated that immense trailing ; and they did not, as they ought to have done, express their decided opinions that the course which English merchants and manufacturers were then pursuing was one that must end unsatisfactorily. For himself he would neither follow party nor prejudice—he would look at this, as at other questions, fairly; and no mere party feeling should induce him to say that the Government was unworthy of confi dence. Still, however, he could not overlook those in • statuses in which he thought that they acted with great in discretion. The nation was in great distress. Was it enough to say that it must not be inquired into because the Noble Duke at the head of the Government had done what he could to pacify the country ? The people asked for bread—hut then the Right Hon. Gent. made a great sacrifice last Session, and it would be improper to desert him now. If they said that, what notion could they have of the independence of Members? Could Members turn, and turn, and turn again, with every turn of the Adminis tration? He was sorry he could not express his confidence in his Majesty's Government ; but if any change of Admi nistration should take place, and the new Ministry should adopt measures agreeable to his ideas oh what was for the benefit of the country, he should be most willing to join —(Hear, h ear , an d a l aug h. )—Hi s f r i en d s an d hi mse lf hadl abandoned no p r i nc i p l e , b u t h e cou ld no t s ay the same of some of those g en tl emen w h o now f orme d p ar t of the Administration. There were some gentlemen who in 1 82 d refused to form part of an Administration, because the Right Hon. Gent. then at its head was stated to have in view a certain measure to attain an object to which they objected. In that refusal they were supported by the ap probation of many Members of that House. But now both these parties Caine forward and claimed great merit --the one for having introduced, the other for having aided, in passing that very treasure. It was from seeing the constant attacks made by these parties upon those with whom he had the honour to act—attacks made in the pub lic prints as well as in that House—and from the way in which the Right Hon. Gent. addressed those with whom lie had formerly been united, attacking them, and praising those from whom he had formerly differed, but to whose plans he was now a convert, that had induced him to speak so strongly. If in doing so he had said anything unparliamentary, he was sorry for it ; but he had felt strongly', and he could not avoid giving expression to his feelings. He would now make a few okservations with regard to the currency qu e sti on . It was no t preten d e d il s i ta a ndard establisheddepreciated nt the couldt t hptassye their w'ho debts b e a r e r d o: r y etdh the Bill of 1826 ; but it was said that every pound note had been replaced by a sovereign. He might be misinformed, hut he had made inquiries into that subject, and the banters of the West of England had given him a very different account. It was now said that the landed interest must make sacrifices. He did not know why, and they had not received any information on that question. There was a reason given for the distress that happened in 1816, or that which took place in 1819, and there was an evident reason for the panic of 1825 ; but no reason whatever was given for the distress that now weighed down the produc tive classses of the country. What a farce, then, was it to sit there and refuse a Committee to inquire precisely, because no individual could state the cause of the distress. Why, what was the object of a Committee, but to find out that which no individual could of himself explain ? A Committee would see what was feasible in such a case, and far that reason he should support the amendment for a Select Committee. They must take care that the capital of the country was not destroyed. The land, the labours, the products of the country, were its wealth—the credit of the country might be destroyed, but the wealth would re main the same. The measures adopted within these few years had ninth diminished, and had gone near to destroy credit. The Legislature would now allow of credit under 100/, hut there had been a time when credit was given on so low a sum as 20/. lie believed that one of the great causes of existing distress was, not that there were more or or less sovereigns in the country, but that the Bill of 1826 hid annihilated a great portion of the representative pro perty of the country. The Government admitted that there ought to be a representative property of 151. and 10/. notes;; but they insisted that the circulating medium should have a metallic basis. And so it might have with a less strict limitation of paper currency. There was no such thing as a fixed standard of value ; because even gold itself, which was popularly considered as a fixed standard, varied with different circumstances in different countries. They had heard that a great part of the present evils arose from our National Debt—a debt which had been, it was alleged, contracted by a profligate aristocracy and an obsti nate Government. There was no man who had seen the result of that war, and who had benefitted by it (and there were many such in that House), who could lay it to the charge of Mr. Pitt, that he had unjustly entered into that war, unless he meant to say, at the same time, that lie should have been prepared to consent to a change in the-monarchical representation and religious system of this country. Fifteen years had now elapsed since the conclusion of the war—its effects we still felt, and could not get rid of them—our efforts, however, must be strenu ously directed to alleviate the evil consequences of the war. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had endeavoured to pursue a certain plan, part of which was to reduce the public funds. It hal been said by some, that the fact of the public funds rising was an undoubted indication of national prosperity. He disagreed from the opinion. It was a well-established fact, that the public funds might rise in national prosperity and in national adversity—in prosperity on account of public confidence, as in 1825 ; and in adversity on account of the want of confidence, and the feeling among men that they had no other profitable means of investing their capital. He be lieved that money to a large extent had been sent up from the country to be invested in the funds, with the view of creating that rise in the price of stock which was said to be an index of public prosperity, but which, he contended, indicated no such thing. It was said that the reissuing of paper money would bring this country into the same state as that of France just previous to the revolution ; and that if the Minister was allowed to pay the claims of the Government with Exchequer Bills, and to make them equivalent to money, he would not re sort to taxation to furnish hint with funds. The Govern ment expences were not merely those which the service of the country called for, but the payment of the interest of the National Debt. The whole of these expences were raised from the peop!e—the interest of the debt in the shape of Excise and Customs. The latter were now much diminished, and he must declare his firm conviction that, sooner or later, the Government must resort to the measure of a depreciated standard—they must have a paper cur rency—or commit a direct and open bankruptcy; but they never could go on in this course. In this condition of the country, what would be the consequences if we were com pelled to go to war, or even if we could remain at peace? It was foolish to blind ourselves to the real position of the country. There was a paper, an extract from which he would read, though he had little doubt that all the Mem bers of that House were well acquainted with it, and which appeared to him particularly applicable to present circum stances. It was nearly at the end of Mr. Hunme's " Essay upon Public Credit." Mr. Hume had, indeed, been a pro phet • but he had never calculated that there would be at last found a Government that would, out of an unheard of principle of generosity, pay more than it had borrowed, and place the country in such a situatiom as that in which it stood at this moment. Mr. Hume said— ., 1 must confess that there is a strange supineness, from long custom, crept into all ranks of men, with regard to pub lic debts ; not unlike what divines so vehemently complain of with regard to their religious doctrines. We all own that the most sanguine imagination cannot hope, either that Oils or any future Ministry will be possessed of such rigid and steady frugality, as to make any considerable progress in the payment of our debts, or that the situation of foreign affairs will, for any long time, allow them leisure and tranquillity sufficient for such an undertaking. What then is to become of us? Were we ever so good Christians, and ever so resigned to providence, this, methinks, were a curious question, even considered as a speculative one, and what it might not be altogether impossible to form some conjectural solution of. The events ' here will depend little on the contingencies of battles, negociations,,intrigues, and factions. There seems to be a natural progress of things which may guide our reasoning. As it would have required but a moderate share of prudence, when we first began this system of mortgaging, to have foretold, from the nature of men, and of ministers, that things would necessarily be carried to the length we see ; so now that they have at last happily reached it, it may not be difficult to guess at the consequence. It must, indeed, be one of these two events :—Either the na. lion must destroy public credit, or public credit will destroy the nation." He thought these opinions were perfectly true, and what was the consequence ? We were now at peace, but it was impossible that any man could say we should not soon again be involved in war. If we were, we must then be forced upon the consideration of the question of the cur rency. We must again go into the market—we must in crease the amount of the 'national debt—and filially, we must follow the system which all other nations had adopted, we must make a compromise with the public creditor. That was a part of the question on which it was a matter of great delicacy to speak. Those men were no patriots—they had no regard for the honour of their country (an honour above that involved in keeping up the payment of the full interest of its debt), who, when large fleets and armies were wanted, would not keep them up, and put themselves to some inconvenience to maintain them. Before he sat down, he wished to call the attention of the House to the state of public feeling out of doors. It was most depressing—it was a state that must soon have an end, and he besought them to consider it with the most deliberate attention. lf, in the course of the observations he had made, he had wounded the feelings of any individual, he was sorry for it, and be should much regret if he had said any thing that would tend to diminish the Value or importance of public credit. The circumstances in which we were now placed were stronger and more imperative than any common rule of action. We must trust for our deliverance to Providence in some respect ; but we must endeavour also by our own exertions, and by the readiness of all to make sacrifices for the common good, to escape from our present difficulties. Above all, the Members of that House must not let it ap pear that they did not deeply sympathize, but that they were swayed by the wishes of the Minister against their own consciences, and against the wishes and feelings of those who had sent them thither. Mr. I3ULLER said there were two questions to be con sidered :—The first was, what was the extent of the dis tress? The second, what was the reme,ly? The exist ence of the distress was admitted. The only thing, there fore, to be inquired into was—first, the extent of the dis tress ; and secondly, whether it was or was not of that na ture over which the Government could exec: controu l . He thought the distress was exaggerated. The petitions on which so much stress was laid appeared to him suspi cious. 'I hey told of the distresses of others, lilt they said little of their own. A little selfishness would, in his opi nion, be more natural. The Hon. Member for Newark had answered the arguments of the President of the Board of Trade, by observing, that they were not in accordance with the statements contained in the petitions, :111,1 lie al luded one entrusted to himself, signed by 1,500 persons. though so i n tatting people prosperity u'erev e ; and 0 ! r :1 i f i o t r in g ] v ra es n i t t e, y , , N th o ey w' h w t ere m no it was only the aggrieved who complained, they , would have 1,500 distressed persons out of a population of about 20,000, whit] was by no mea ns so laimmtable a propor tion as the Hon. Member w ould have represe n t e d it. He thought the Hon. Gentlemen o pposite were liahle to the charge of inconsis tenc y . The y would not, in enu merating the c auses of the prevailing distress, condescend to take into aceount the succession of hail seasons, or the altered state of foreign relations ; but with ti , e covtancv of a romantic lover, they clung to their dear bank notes and their beloved monop.aly. To free trade they attributed those ills which the modification of it that was introduced had alone averted. They attributed the distress to a dimi nished circulating medium, at a time that it was more abundant than it had ever been known to be before.— (Hear, hear.)—For himself, he believed that the distress of the manufacturing classes proceeded from causes of a changeable nature, while those of the agriculturists were attributable to permanent causes. Mr. HUSKISSON—Sir, the greater portion—indeed I might say the whole—of the debate upon the part of the lion. Gentleman who brought forward this motion, and of those who have given it any support, seems to be some undefined alteration in the currency.—(Hear, hear.)—l have heard, it is true, from an Hon. Baronet, an episode which does not seem to connect itself very essentially with the currency, and ou which therefore I shall say nothing ; and I have also heard from that Hon. Baronet, that ho was a convert to the doctrines of Mr. Hume on public credit; and he then proceeds to prophecy, that perhaps many Sessions would not go by, nor the course of his own life run out, before something like a national bankruptcy would take place. Sir, I hope the Hon. Baronet will live long, and continue to be, as he is now, an honour to this House; but I at the same time trust he will not prove a truer prophet in this instance than Mr. Hume.—(Cheers.) —I beg to assure the Hon. Member for Shaftesbury, who introduced the proposition, and the Hon. Member for Shoreham, who suggested the amendment, that it is not any want of respect towards them, or the Hon. Gentle men who have supported them, that induees the to decline entering into the question, which, to him, seems necessary as a remedy for the existing evils—l mean the currency. I think the doctrine of a change in the currency has not met with great encouragement from the House, and I feel that from the time when the Bullion Committee was first appointed, on which Committee I sat, I have had such frequent opportuuity of stating my opinions upon this sub ject, that were I now to dwell upon them at large, I should unwarrantably trespass on your time. I shall, therefore, confine myself to stating, that the change of the currency is certainly one of the causes of the public distress— (Hear, hear, hear,)—but there are many others; and as to the question of the currency, it must, in my mind, be considered as for ever set at root.—(Cheers. ) Sir, in 1819, when that Act was passed which has since taken the name of my Eight Hon. Friend—l meats when Mr. Peel's Act was passed—l was ill, and unable to attend in my place ; but if I had been present, I should have decidedly given his motion my most cordial support. In 1522, however, when the Hen. Member for Essex proposed an inquiry into the state of the currency, I had an opportunity of stating my objections at length ; and the House, notwithstanding the able and eloquent manner d c id yet, a li fte th r a t t w l o lo n n. ights Member ofde sup pd is propo sition, bya ma jority of seven to one—of, I believe, one hundred amid ninety-four to thirty, in favour of the amendment I moved, which was to the effect that we should not agree to the alteration.—(Hear, hear.)—Sir, if this was the view of Parliament in 1822, when the currency could scsrcely be considered as restored to a sound state, is it probable that in 1830, eight years after, when matters had acquired a stability from time and custom, we should entertain such a proposition ? Sir, I say to the House, and I would with it to go forth to the people, that there could not be a greater curse in a commercial country than any vecillation or alteration in that which is the common measure of all dealings—the foundation of all national security, and the guarantee of all credit between man and man.— (Cheers ) —I can understand that Hon. Gentlemen in 1519, might, in the discussion as to whether we were to adhere to the former standard or alter it, have advocated our remainiog as we were, though I must think that Parliament acted most wisely in resisting the ancient standard ; but I cannot understand how it is that anybody could censent to ag tin expose the country to the disquietude, agitation, and alarm which it had formerly to endure, and which must ineriteh'y be the result of such a proposition, were it to be cat rigid into effect. I am not sorry, however, it has been brought forward, because one of the causes of the public distress is to be found in the doubt that prevails respecting the decision Parliament are likely to come to upon this subject. Ic i, a matter of much consequence, then, that we should hasten to pronounce that decision after such a fashion as shall leave no room for hope or fear of change.—(Cheers. ) There is one other topic on which I wish to touch before I proceed to the general question. It is that of the one pound notes : and, Sir, I frankly admit, that there is one case in which one pound notes might circulate without danger.—(Cheers from the Opposition Beaches.)—Yes, Sir, I admit this; but I at the same time remember the wretched circumstances in which the country was placed in the years from 1822 to 1826—circumstances, from the effects of which we have not yet recovered. I think, Sir, that one pound notes might circulate safely, while there I was a little excitement in the commerce of the country; but whenever there was any inducement to speculation, the facility affiatied by this circulating medintn would be followed by these results—that all prices rising in the mar kets at home, the sovereigns either in circulation, or in the coffers of the Bank of England, would be in demand to send out of the country, because a corresponding rise would not have taken place in other countries. And when this rise had taken place in your own markets, you would be just as yon were in 1525. You would think every thing was in estate the most prosperous, and you would dream of nothing but felicity and fortune, till not a sovereign was left in the country. Then, on a sudden, would come a panic, when it was discovered that the gold had been all disposed of to pay an undue price in foreign markets, in consequence of the fictitious price that was kept ep at home. I say, therefore, you niest submit to the inconvenience of having notes of a higher denomination of value than the metallic currency, else will you be perpetually subject to a ruinous vacillation of prices. Consequently, Sir, I shall now, and on all other occasions, resist to the utmost of my power any new circulation of one-pound notes by the country bankers.--( Cheers. )—Having said this, I shall now address myself to the question more immediately before the House, namely, the question respecting the general distress. Sir, I am not one of those disposed to tinder-rate this distress, We have pregnant proof of its existence in the document be fore us, from which we must also draw the inference that it has prevailed to a great degree during the last yeer. The document I allude to, Sir, is of a far superior authority to private communication, and even to the petitions of the people, and it is that which shows the relative state of the Savings' Banks in 1828 and 1829, Sir, this document declares that in 1828 the amount of money deposited in these banks was 945,0001., while the amount drawn from them was 678,0001. But how was it in 1829 ? In 1829, the deposits only amounted to 449,0001., while nearly one million and a half had been drawn. It is but proper to state, however, and I am happy iu being able to do so, that there has been some improvement in the first two months of this years—(lient, hear, hear. )—With such a document, then, before us, it is impossible to deny that there is considerable distress. I know its intensity, and I deplore its extent ; and I must acknowledge its ex, treme pressure upon the lower classes during the late severe winter. Still, Sir, I cannot consent to take a gloomy and desponding view of the situation of the country, as sonic people are disposed to do. I believe teat however England may be crippled at this moment by circumstances of domestic calamity, it is impossible to suppose we are in a state of helpless weakness and irretrievable decay.—(Cheere..)-- I entertain a juster confidence iu the resources of the country.—(Hear.)—l consider the springs and sources of the national prosperity to be unimpaired.—(Cheers.)— Our agriculture has not yet suffered—our manufactures are not in decay—our commerce is nut ditniniehed—use accumul tted capital remains—the energy of the people reinains--and, more than all, the inthistry of the people, which is unparalleled in the history of nations, and which is the main stay and safeguard of the empire ; remains. —(Loud cheers.)—Beaitles, Sir, I have farther and better grounds for confidence, in a 'tomtid and en lightened public opinion exercising, as I say it does, year after year, in a higher degree its salutary influence, as wed on the councils of Ministers as on the proceedings of Par liatnent.—(Cheers.)—l think, Sir, that no one who reads the signs of the times—no one who has observed the events of last Session—no one who hie observed the events of Isss week, can deny the paramount influence of popular opiuime —(Cheers.)—This power, Sir, may not be directly wealth ! or productive industry, but it is the shield of both--it is the safeguard of the nation against empyriciem—it is the finger post to guide us in all circumstances of difficulty and danger to the road of safety.—(Loud cheers.)-13tit, Sir, we have now to consider what are the causes of the distress; toy opinion is not one formed pending the discussion, anti the iclh I h periodhave ex excitementexpressed igy n s m a l u i e i ta c it t iits ee i i s ip roneke:leons%tvtsl:l to BIM; many of env Hon. ii "F Friends ri a e t too g h ; r e e a lP i dir)e:srissdnieuingreth upon t spet •ishy sty to the Board springs of fi T c r u ail t e ie . s a ß ri u se t, fr S on ic, lif and sources of productive industry.—(Loud and continued cheering.)—Let it be remarked, however, that this is not the pressure of a moment ; it is from its ben too great in ordinary time* that it is so severely fats in those fits of exacerbation which are the result of bail seasons, or an alteration in our foreign relations, or any temporary panic. These, however, are accidents and casualties to which a commercial country like outs must be perpetually liable ; but if we were habitually iti a. robust anti vigorous stets, this would not have the power to produce such calemitosis effects. The wages of labour were too low and the profits of capital toe swat ,