The Sun. — London, England, 1830-02-10 00:00:00

&went', lie would repeat, that it was the true interest of this country to consult the happiness of the people of India. LORD ELLENBOROUGH'S LETTER. Lord DURHAM—My Lords, I so entirely concur with the motion which has just been submitted, that I should not have thoug'lt it necessary to address your Lordehip s on the present occasion ; but I do think it would be a dere liction of duty to remain silent respecting a circumstance to which I now beg to call your Lordships' attention. I think I ant bound to give the Noble Lord an opportunity of an explanation with regard to a document which has circulated through the country, and has been a subject of animadversion in another place. I beg to ask whether that document is his ? I will not enter into any observa tions now ; but I beg to call upon the Noble Lord,' whe • they the letter to which I have alluded, purporting to be addressed by him to Sir J. Malcolm, is his ? Lord ELLENBOROUGH agreed with the Noble Mar quis (Lansdowne) opposite on the vast importance of the subject, and he also concurred with him in the necessity of having all the informatien which could be obtained. With respect to the 'question put to me by the Noble Baron (continued the Noble Lord), I tees only say that, when first my attention was called to the letter which is ad dressed to Sir John Malcolm, purporting to be written by me, I had no recollection whatever of having written one of that nature. But I have since read the letter, as it ap peared in the Newspapers, and have no reason to doubt that substantially it is the same as the one written by me. --(Hear.)—But there are Variation between the letter published here and that published in India—variations of some consevence. I can assure the Noble Lord, had I again a confidential communication with Sir John Mal eolm—an officer acting with me—and bad I the informa tion given by that officer, I should act as I have done. If I had taken any other course with respect to Sir J. Dewar and Sir William Seymour, than that which I did follow, I feel that I should have deserted my duty, and have been unworthy the trust reposed in me. Lord DURHAM—The Noble Lord then avows the sentiments-expressed in the letter. At present I am not prepared to submit any tuition to the House on the. sub kct ; but I do regret that he has avowed those sentiments. I can assure the Noble Lord that his letter has made a great sensation among those who take a deep interest in the affairs of India. I do regret that one of his Majesty's Ministers should have expressed himself unfriendly to the independence of the Judges of India.—(Hear, hear. ) This, I sin sure, is a matter of great regret to all who take an interest in the affairs of India. I shall, not, how ever, ray Lords, enter into the subject now ; but this I will say, that it is a matter of the most serious surprise to' the people of this country. I repeat that I do regret the Noble Lord has not disavowed the sentiments contained in that letter.—(Hear.)—Sentiments which, if they ani mated the rules respecting the appointment of Judges on this side the water, would he of more serious detriment than any question which can affect oar political relations. As I said in the outset - , I was not prepared to submit a motion to your Lordships on the subject ; but I consi sidered it would be a dereliction of my duty not to inquire whether the letter was genuine: The Duke of WELLINGTON—His Noble Friend sit ting near him had stated to their Lordships that he was the author of the letter in question. He was bound, there fore, by the terms of that letter; but he was not bound by the sentiments other persons might attribute to his Noble Friend. • He did not see one word in that letter de rogatory to the independence of the Judges in the East Indices What his Noble Friend had stated was certain— for the Judge, Sir J. Grant, had not conducted himself with discretion. If his Noble Friend had at that time known the decision of the Privy Council, be would have had the highest authority for declaring that the Judge had not conducted himself according to law. His Noble Friend said he wrote the letter actuated by his public duty. The law laid down by the Judge was considered hail ; and the Privy Council had decided that it was. The Judge, then, in pronouncing it was good law, had conthested himself in discreetly. His Noble Friend then said he had recom mended the appointment of two discreet Judges to con trout the one individual—(A laugh)—and this was con sidered an attack on the independence of the Judges, though there was not one word in the letter that went to that point. His Noble Friend further said that, since the transaction occurred, the East India Company had applied to the Privy Council to have Sir J. P. Grant recalled, and the Privy-Council had recommended that he should be recalled, in toiler to answer for his conduct respecting the transaction referred to in the private letter. He moat say that his Noble Friend was to blame for writing a private • letter ..enneerning such a transaction; for that he would not defend his Noble Friend ; but it was never to he ex pected; that in a- correspondence of a private and confielen tiel nature every word was to be weighed ; and if it were so, no man would be a Minister. Lord DURHAM thought he could point out some pas sages of the letter- which the Noble Duke seemed not to have rend attentively [" I have," from the Duke of Wel lington], which was an attack on the independence of the Judges. The Noble Lord then referred to that part of the letter which describes Sir J. Grant to he like a wild elephant led away between two tame ones, as an attack on the independence of the Judges. He thought the country would not agree with the Duke of Wellington's opinion of the law; and that even the Noble Lord on the Woolsack would not like his interpretation of law. Lord Viscount MELVILLE entertained opinions en tirely in conformity with those expressed by the Noble Duke, with regard to the letter in question. He would take the liberty of saying that a great deal of flippancy had been used on the subject of the letter, but not by the Noble Baron who wrote it. A great deal of misconception existed with respect to the situation of Judges in the Co lonies, by comparing them to the Judges of this country. But what was the fact? The Jndges were learned per pens, who sometimes conceived that their Courts possessed a power which must be executed, and if not executed by others, that they must put their decrees in force. The Governor of Bombay had said on such an occasion— " You are wrong, you hare no jurisdiction —you must not, and ought not, to execute your decrees." The Judge, however, persisted ; the Governor resisted ; he was justified in opposing the Judge's decrees; and he was told he was wrong. He entertained an opinion totally dif ferent from some he had heard, and the authority he quoted for his opinion was that of Parliament itself. What hap.. pened with respect to the Courts of -India fifty years before? The Supreme Com t at Bengal then entertained a notion of its power, which it carried to a greater length than Sir J. P. Grant had done, and it employed a large num ber of persons to enforce its decrees, by which it caused the greatest confusion. What did the Government do ? It sent a military officer to oppose the Judge's forces; and when the Governor was informed that this officer was not sufficient, he sent an additional force. What did the Par liament do ? It supported the Governor, and very near impeached the Chief Justice. It passed an Act, which is now on the Statute Book, enacting that the Governors of Colonies must be supported ; and by the first clause, it exempted the Governor-General of India, and the Gover nor of Bombay and Madras, from the authority of the Supreme Court. It enacted, too, that if the acts of the Government were challenged by the Supreme Court, it should be sufficient to plead the order of the Governor as a bar to all proceeding. It further indemnified the Go vernors for resisting the Judges. It was very well to talk about the independence of the Judges in India, but it was not an independence in truth. They must have that sort of discretion not to put the country into danger, by exercising the power which belonged to their Courts. The case which lately occurred at Bombay was similar to what occurred at Bengal fifty years ago. The Judge had directed a habeas corpus to issue con cerning a Zemindar of influence and property, and hold ing a high office, which the Government stopped. A complaint was made that the Judge had misunderstood the law. He did not blame the Judge for acting on his own opinion of the law ;—in that he did right. But what did he do to support his decrees? Why, he shut up his Court. The Governor did that which he had a right to do, and the Judge therefore shut up his Court, and denied all the people justice. The case had hardly been de scribed fairly; it was not only necessary, as his Noble Friend said, that the Judges should be of discreet minds, they must also be full of integrity, and learned in the law. It had happened to him more than once to have to advise his Majesty to recall a Judge from India. He had not the slightest doubt, that on such occasions he had expressed himself . in a manner similar to the sentiments of his Noble Friend. There was not a year passed when there were net confidential communications between the Governors and the Judges, and the Judges had a right to give an opinion, and caution the Governors when they were likely to do any thing wrong. If any doubt arose about the power of the Governor, it was customary to caution him not to come into contact with the law. There was a confiden tial intercourse between the Judge and the Governor, and the Judge cautioned the Governor to keep out of his Court; and if the Governor found it necessary, an appli cation was made to Parliament to provide a remedy. He contended that the Judges of this country must not show their independence when they went to India ; they must be careful not to commit the Governor ; they must not set up their own notions of law ; the Judge must agree with what the authority of the Governor declares wrong. If the Judges set up their own authority, it was impossible to say what was the extent of their jurisdiction, or whom they might not make subject to it. Disputes might be referred home, but the Judge could not be suffered to shot up Lis Court. The conduct of Sir J. P. Grant was in his opinion extremely blameable, and so thought the Privy Council. Finally, if any person conceived that the inde pendence of Judges in India stood upon the same footing as the independence of Judges in this country, it was alto gether a mistake; and for asserting that such opinion was erroneous, he had much higher authority than any he had hitherto heard quoted against it. Lord HOLLAND said, that when the Noble Viscount opposite rose, he was afraid that that Noble Lord was about to read his Noble Friend (Lord Ellenhorough) a severe lecture upon the style and tenour of the letter in question, seeing that the Noble Viscount at the outset deprecated any flippancy upon a subject so grave and im portant ; but instead of so turning round upon his friend, he pursued a course altogether the reverse, and en deavoured to bear out the Noble writer of that letter in the assertion that the question of law was one of com parative. insignificance. That was the very sentiment of the letter, upon which those who objected to it might lay no inconsiderable stress. The Noble Lord, in his letter, declared that the question of law runs one of comparative insignificance, and that what he chiefly objected to was the tone and temper of the Judges—the tenour of the language which they delivered from the Bench. However, it was scarcely fair to come to any conclusion upon mat ters turning upon the mere language of the letter, as the Noble Lord had not thought proper to inform the House what parts of the letter were authentic, and what were not so ; but thus much lie (Lord Holland) could not help saying, that the effect of the letter had been to produce a considerable sensation in that country, and it was calcu lated to produce a considerable sensation here, that any Member of his Majesty's Government should be found writing to a public functionary in India that errors in matters of laW were comparatively of little importance, and that the speeches from the Judges on the Bench—the tone and temper of those speeches, constituted the whole ground of offence. That it was much worse to touch the Supreme Government than to be guilty of illegal proceed ings. --(Hear, bear.)—But, after all, the real question was, what impression such a letter was calculated to make upon the public mind here and in India? He knew that in this country at least an impression was created, that in the appointment of the new Judges an improper bias and sway had been permitted to operate in the recommendation of the individuals appointed. He begged most un feignedly to assure their Lordships that he felt much dislike to the discussion of such topics, and no man could doubt that it would be infinitely more plea surable even to have been the writer of that letter than the person by whom it was made public ; but with observations on that subject he would not trouble their Lordships ; he would merely state, as a matter of fact, that an opinion prevailed in England that it was expected sub serviency, and not knowledge and integrity, which recom mended to favour in the appointment in question. That was his opinion; and unless he was very much misin formed, it was likely to he the opinion in India, and it was one likely to be productive of serious ill consequences—un less, indeed, the Noble Lord could prove it to be without feundation. He (Lord Holland) was perfectly willing to allow for the privacy of the communication ; but he could not forget that it was a letter from one public officer to another, and it had been written by the Noble Lord op posite, and its contents had transpired ; and if they were at all such as had been described, he could not doubt that the effects of it would be unfortunate both icr England and for India. Lord ELLENBOP.OUGH said he thought he should be the last man in that House, or in the country, who should be accused of the smallest attempt to trench upon the independence of Judges. To be incapable of such an act was that for which, he thmlght, all men who had the slightest knowledge of him, would give him the most ample credit. He had too strong a recollection of the high qualities of his Noble and Learned Father, not to respect the independence of Judges, and do all in his power fir the maintenance and preservation cf that inde pendence. Had he entertained the most distant idea of subverting or weakening, or in any respect assailing the independence of Judges in India, there could be no question of his deserving the severest reprobation ; but of such con duct he declared himself totally incapable. He was not opposed to the independence of Judges, but he was'deter mined to resist their usurpations. He was determined to resist any attempt they might make to grasp at powers which were not given, but expressly taken from them by the law. Power which, if his information was to be depended on, and he had no reason to doubt its accuracy, could not be exercised without the most imminent danger to the tranquillity of India, and the stability of that in fluence which we there possessed. Much needless im portance had been attached to the expression that legal errors were comparatively of little importance ; lie would repeat and maintain that assertion ; they were, compara tively, insignificant; errors In law were as nothing, com pared with the tenour of language coaling from the ele vation of the Bench—proceeding from the lips of men clothed, as it were, with royal authority, and directed against the Executive Government of the country. He would affirm to their Lordships, that unless the integrity of that Government were maintained in insulated and unapproached power, British authority could not he maintained in India. That authority depended upon opinion, and it could not be maintained if ex posed to cavil or liable to obstruction. Again he would declare that the sentiments contained in that letter were such as he felt commanded to express by his sense of public duty. As to the appointment which had been made the subject of animadversion, lie believed, if the qualifications of the individual in question were in quired into, it would be found that none need he better qualified than he was for filling that situation. He made the fullest inquiry into that gentleman's character, and he found it to be in all respects suited to the office. In the correspondence held by him with the §upreme Govern ment, he had displayed a complete possession of the legal knowledge required : but not only did he posses■ the knowledge of law, but also what was, if possible, of more importance—he possessed that discretion which pecu liarly fitted him for the situation of Chief Justice. Influenced by such information, and decided by such evidence as satisfied his mind of the perfect fitness of that gentleman, he hesitated not to offer his advice to his Majesty, recommending his appoint ment ; that advice he certainly never should have given, had lie not been assured that the object of it was in an eminent degree possessed of that discretion for which he gave him credit, and also for that gentle manly conduct which would impart dignity and efficiency to the discharge of his duties. In one of the interviews which he (Lord Ellenhorough) bad with that gentleman, he read a passage from the writings of Sir William Jones, descriptive of the duties of a Judge, expressing his de liberate determination to govern his conduct as a Judge by the rules which Sir William Jones laid down. Now, if he made as good a Judge as Sir William Jones wished to be, the House or the country would have little reason to complain of the appointment. In a country situated as India was, nothing became of greater importance than to maintain the character of those who were charged with great responsibility, and he submitted that such authority and influence as was there required could never be main tained otherwise than by resisting the interference of one department with another. The Ques'ion on the appointment of the Committee was then put and agreed to. POOR RATES. Lord TEYNHAM rose, amidst much noise and con fusion, to move for certain Returns connected with the Poor Rates ; but the purport of his Lordship's observa tions, or the exact tenour of his motion, it was impossible to catch—amongst other matters, it was understood to embrace the number of agricultural labourers paid in part out of the Poor's Rates. The Noble Lord made trone remarks upon the present distressed state of the agricul tural class, and the great obligation which lay upon Par liament to take measures for their immediate relief. The Duke of WELLINGTON said he should not have the slightest ajection to afford the House or the Noble Lord all the information which could possibly be required, but the last time that similar information had been ap plied for, a year and a half elapsed before it could be procured—considerable expense was incurred for the pur pose—and he really believed that after the Returns had been made out they were never once looked at. The Re turns for which the Noble Lord sought would demand reference to 14,000 parishes. He therefore put it to the Noble Lord, whether for such a purpose it was worth while to incur so heavy an expense as would unavoidably be incurred by calling for these Returns. The Duke of RICHMOND was quite sure that the Re turns already before the House would prove amply suffi cient to establish any degree of agricultural distress for which the Noble Lord might be disposed to contend. If his object were to prove that the land was unduly bur thened, turn where lie might, he need he• at no loss for evidence in support of that position ; but it would be in finitely better if the Noble Lord, instead of moving for tho.e Returns, would give his vete against the measures of the Noble Duke's Government. If the Noble Lord, on the first night.of the Session, bad voted in the minority instead of swelling the ranks of the Noble Duke, it would have been a muck greater public service than moving for Returns of that description. To do real service to the State, Noble Purrs ought to support a general Parliamen tary inquiry into the state of the country, and there they wooki,learn quite enough to- Supersede the necessity of moving for any further Returns. Let the Noble Lord only withdraw his support from tl►e Government of the Noble Duke, and to that extent at least he will do a pub lic service—not but that he (the Duke of Richmond) re *gretted as much as any Noble Peer could do, the necessity tinder which he felt himself of opposing the measures of the Noble Duke, especially on subjects connected with the state of the landed interests. Lord TEYN HAM consented to withdraw his motion ; but accompanied that withdrawal with a notice, that on Tuesday, the 20th of April, he should move for a Com mittee to inquire into the state of the Poor Laws—previous to which, he should move certain Resolutions declaratory of his views upon that subject, allowing sufficient time for Noble Lords to make up their minds as to the most expe dient measures of relief. He excused himself for voting with Government on the first night of the Session, on the ground that respect to his Majesty required that the Ad dress proposed by his Ministers en that occasion should experience the general support of the House, but no one could more cordially concur than be did in the assertion that the state of the country demanded immediate inquiry. The House adjourned at Twenty Minutes past Six. HOUSE OF COMAIONS--(LAST NIGHT.) The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock. NEW WRITS. On the motion of Mr. PLANTA, a New Writ was ordered for Winehelsea, in the room of Mr. 11. Brougham, who has accepted the Chiltern Hundreds. Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from a parish in the county of Cork, praying for a repeal of the Sub letting Oct. The petitioners stated that the repeal of this Act would have the effect of greatly relieving the agricul tural distress in England, as it would keep the Irish paupers at home. The Honourable Member then pre sented several other petitions of a similar nature, and gave notice that on a subsequent day he should bring in a Bill for the repeal of that Act. COURT OF CHANCERY. Mr. D. W. HARVEY moved that various returns which had been presented relating to the Court of Chan cery, be presented. The Hon. Member said it appeared from those returns, that there were at the present moment ten thousand causes and matters pending in the Courts of Chancery, and money in consequence locked up to within a portion of forty millions sterling.—( Hear, bear.)—The House, perhaps, might suppose that no cause found its way into that Court, except it was one of importance. Such, however, was not the fact, as it was shown more than eight hundred of the suits now undecided did not re late to property amounting to 2001.—(Hear, hear.)—He hoped Hon. Members would give their attention to the subject. PORTUGAL. Lord PALMERSTON gave notice that on Thursday, the 18th inst., he should submit a motion to the House on the affairs of Portugal. • BURNING OF MINDOO WIDOWS. Mr. BANKES moved for a Return of the number of Widows who had sacrificed themselves on the funeral pile of their husbands since the last Return on this subject.— Ordered. Sir E. KNATCHBULL presented a petition from seve ral plrishes in the county of Kent, setting forth the dis tresses or the country, and praying for a reduction of tax ation. The Hon. Member then presented several other petitions of a similar nature from different parishes in the same county. IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT. Mr. HUME moved for a return of the number of per sons confined in the various prisons of the metropolis dui ing the year 1629, distinguishing those who are confined on mesne process, and those ce'ifined on judgment, with the amount of the various sums for which they were imprisoned. The Hon, Member said the system of im prisonment for debt was at once ruinous and demoraliz ing. The Attorney-General was sensible of the mischief it entailed, and when it suited his purpose no one was more eloquent on the liberty of the subject. He would not now go into particulars, but ask the Right Hon. Secretary whether it was the intention of his Majesty's Ministers to bring in any Bill to regulate the present practice respecting rnesne process—and also the practice respecting the Court of Requests. There had been, as undoubtedly was well known, several instances where persons had been in prison 20 days, and when the original debt was not more than Is. 6d. Mr. Secretary PEEL said, the Hon. Member most be aware that two years since a Bill was brought in to prohibit any arrest under twenty pounds. Now, even that Bill had been in some cases attended with injurious effects, a fact which convinced him of the necessity of looking into the whole subject, before making any alteration in part of it. He however could inform the House that he had called the attention of the Law Commissioners to the subject of imprisonment for debt ; and as they had now made some progress in their inquiries, he hoped they would soon make it convenient to pay that attention to it which it merited. He thought, if the sum was raised to 301. 401. or 50/., still the evil might be aggravated, unless the whole sub ject was well considered. Mr. Harvey was not satisfied with that answer. The Law Commission, like many others, might last 30 years, the subject was of that importance, it demanded immediate attention. After a desultory conversation, in which Mr. PEtL, Mr. O'Costxr.LL, and Mr. Hume, took a part, the re turns were ordered. Mr. HUME moved for returns of the number of per eons imprisoned by the Commissioners of the Court of Requests.—Ordered. The Hon. Member then moved for similar returns re lating to Ireland. Mr. WODEHOUSE moved, that nn bumble address be presented to his Majesty, that he would be pleased to order certain documents to be laid before the House, which document , had been given in evidence before a Committee of this House, on the 26th of April, 1826, touching the advantage of adopting a silver standard of currency. He wished to consult the evidence of Alexander Baring, E,q. on that subject, and wished also to know if his Honourable Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would object to granting it? The CHANCELLOR of ti,e EXCHEQUER replied, that he had no objection to furnish the document which he had read, provided that he might be allowed to reserve the point of submitting the whole of the evidence together. Mr. DAWSON brought up certain papers relative to the revenue of Great Britain and Ireland. Mr. M. A. TAYLOR mai•ed for various returns re lating to the Court of Chancery, and said the evils exist ing in that Court were of so grievous a character, that he would never rest satisfied until he had obtained a remedy. FREE TRADE TO INDIA. ' Mr. Secretary PEEL rose and said, Mr. Speaker, Sir, his Majesty's Government have thought it to be their duty to avail themselves of the very earliest opportunity of redeeming that pledge which they gave at the close of the last Session of Parliament, that early after the commencement of the present session they would propose a committee of inquiry for the purpose of investigating the state of the commerce between this country and our Indian possessions. And, Sir, if in proposing that Committee, my statement should, so far as the length of it is concerned, appear disproportionate to the vast importance of the subject, and if I should forbear from entering, on the present occasion, into those manifold and most important details which connect them selves with the consideration cf it ; it is not, Sir, I assure you, from any indifference or insensibility on my part to the paramount importance of this subject, but it is from a recollection of, and a reflection upon, the position in which I stand to-night, and of the duties which the undertaking of the night devolves upon me. It is no part of my duty on the present occasion to submit to this House the consideration of my plan for the future govern ment of India, it is no part of my duty to state the opinions of his Majesty's Government with respect to the renewal of the present privileges possessed by the East India Company, or of any modifications of those privileges —any duty to night is confined to the proposal of referring the affairs of India ; to the dispassionate consideration of a Com mittee, so as to bring forward a collection of opinions and facts which shall form the elements of future conside ration—the grounds of future question, and a question in volving more important and complicated circumstances and imposing higher obligations, I must say of m o r a l duty, than any other question which, within the sphere and range of public affairs can now be submitted to the consideration of the Legislature. Sir, I have another motive for avoiding, as far as I can, the discussion and consideraion of that question . to-night, because it is certainly no part of my object at the present time to provoke a length ened discussion, and the clashing of opinions and statements on the Indian affairs, because I doubt whether we shall not better finish that deliberate investigation, which is suited so well to the importance, and I may say, to the dignity of this House, if such a conflict and collision of opinions can in the first instance be avoided.—(Loud cheers.) — Sir, I shall propose one Committee for the purpose of ex amining that great mass of documentary evidence which is ready to be submitted to its consideration, and of institut ing that personal examination of witnesses conversant cviat the fact, and qualified by local information and experience to give opinions worthy of our inquiry. I propose one Committee rather than two or three Committees, because I doubt whether the subjects are not so intimately con - fleeted together, that the evidence submitted to this House, prepared under the superintendence of one Coiumit. t e e will not have more of simplicity and of uniformity. it than if two or three Committees were sitting,—one for instance on the financial concerns of the country—another on the trade with India, and another on the trade with China. The subjects therefore are so intimately connected, that I fear confusion would arise if the suggestion which fell from the Hon. Gent. opposite (the Member for Calling ton) and from whom' every suggestion that falls is deserving of the highest consideration, should be attended to. I fear that his suggestion thrown out in the course of last Session, that two or three Committees should be appointed, would create great confusion ; and that in travelling over the same ground, and, in addressing our attention to the result of the inquiries of those two or three Commitees, we should rather be bewildering our selves than coming to any sound and satisfactory conclusion. Sir, I propose this Committee with a view of instituting a full and unreserved investigation into the state of the affairs of the East Indies. Every document connected with the financial and commercial affairs of that country shall be laid without reserve before that Committee.—(Hear, hear.)—l propose that Committee, not for the purpose of ratifying any engagement previously entered into between this Government and theEtst Indies—no such engagement, open or concealed—expressed or implied, exists—(Loud cheering)—because we are perfectly free agents on this side of the water.—(Loud cries of Hear, hear, hear.) —I do not propose this Committee either for the purpose of sanctioning and confirming any previously farmed determination on the part of Governmeat, no such determination exists, but the respect due to the financial and commercial affairs of the country shall be liable to be revise:l, according to the result of the investigation of that Committee of Inquiry. But, Sir, having intimated that no such engagement exists between this Government and India, and that no such irrevocable determination on the part of the Government has been formed, I feel my self entitled, on that very ground, to impress upon the House the extreme importance of this inquiry, and to implore and beseech Hon. Members to consider that it must have other objects in view, than to determine merely in what manner British commerce can be extended and carried on—that there are other considerations connected with it of much greater importance than even the exten sion of Eritish commerce. That you are at present to consider the political character of the country, to consider the vast trusts which have been administered by the Governors of immense regions possessed of large suing, and administering a revenue greater than that of most other countries. We shall then be boend when we approach this subject, a most comprehensire sub ject, we shall be hound to consider the various modes and degrees in which it affects the finances of this country— in which it affects the Constitution of this country— in which it affects the influence of the Crown, as well as various other considerations of the very utmost importance. Sir, I feel it right also to state, at this early period, from the information which has been given to me, that in speaking of the Company in their political character, any investigaticin must reflect credit upon this Company. I do think they have been animated by a sincere desire to conduce to the general welfare of those who have been left to their management ; and in comparing the Government of the East Indies with any other form of Colonial Government that ever ex isted, I think the result of the administration of the powers committed to them by the Sovereign of this country must redound to their honour and credit. Above all, Sir, let us always bear in mind that in the course of this transaction we are treating with the interests, and the feelings of an immense people. Let us then avoid rash experiments; and when we think, a priori, that some better system of Government might have been devised, let us think that this form of government over almost countless millions of people has existed nearly fifty years ; and though not prepared to say there might not be another form of government more suitable to the administration of that country devised, yet I say there has resulted so much sound practical good from that administration, as to induce us to take care how we make rash experiments upon the Government of India. Of course this inquiry must extend into,the financial state of the East Indies. We must compare the amount of the revenue at present received, with the amount of the revenue at former periods. We must compare—we must estimate the prospect of our improvement with the amount of civil charges, the pros pect of making the gross revenue received by the East India Company equivalent to the charges to be made upon us. Sir, with respect to the commercial con cerns of the East Indies, the documents which shall be presented to the Committee contain much impor tant information. Upon this subject I shall abstain from giving any opinion, but I can say that those returns will convince any man that too sanguine expectations from opening a free trade ought not to be entertained—that the expectations of a faventrable result ought not be too sanguine, however there will be the means of judging what are the regulations ender which the China trade is at present conducted—what is the effect of a free admission under different circumstances of merchants to that part—upon all these circumstances, the price of the articles which can be brought from thence—the price of tea from all the other dif ferent parts—the price at which it is furnished by a company, as it is said, of monopoly, and that at which it might be supplied by other people trading on their own responsibility. Upon all that full information is contained in those documents which will be laid before the Committee; and, Sir, any document containing any better information than another which can he procured, shall be unreservedly laid before those ap. pointed to conduct the enquiry. Sir, among the considera tions which shall be presented to the Committee, I have re served the last place for that which is by far the most important. I mean the welfare of those who are not sub ject to the dominion of the Government of India. Sir, I have seen, drawn out with considerable accuracy, the number of people subject to British laws, and that num ber amounting to no less than ninety millions of people ; the extent of the population committed to the care of the British Government is a subject of great importate e. When we call to mind the Revolution of Empires, when we reflect upon the immense extent of the Indian Empire, the difference which prevails in the language, manners, religion, and usages of the people, over which this important body presides, the mind is lost in con templation of the various objects of our rule ; but whatever sentiments we may entertain with respect to the general bearing and the details of the subject, one feeling all must admit must necessarily influence our deliberations, namely, a deep sense of the responsibility which we our selves have incurred, and of the moral obligation which such responsibility has imposed upon us—the moral obligation of our paramount duty to promote to the utmost of our power the moral and political improvement of the natives, as far as we consistently can, with that deference and re spect which we (yacht to skew towards long established institutions. That moral duty imposes upon us the pa ramount obligation to protect the nativ es of that Em p ire in the enjoyment, not only of their p ersonal libert y and the fruits of their industry, but to continue to them that protection which they now enjoy under British rule, as same compensation for the arduous struggles which they have made, and the severe privations they have endured. These, Sir, are considerations which, whatever may be our desire to extend British commerce, and to consult the com mercial interests of our own country, must, in discussing a question of this importance, necessarily enter into the deli berations of a British Parliament.—(Hear.) —Adhering, therefore, to the principles which I had originally laid down, and avoiding all reference to any subordinate considerations, and unwilling to promote any altercation from which con flict might arise, I shall conclude by moving that a select committee be appointed to enquire into the present state of affairs of the East India Company, and the trade be tween Great Britain, India, and China. The SPEAKER having put the question, Mr. WHIT MORE approved of the line of conduct adopted by the Right Hon. Gentleman, in abstaining from any subject that might create a difference of opinion, as it was the most prudent course that could be pursued. The Hon. Member expressed a hope that the Right Honourable Gentleman did not mean to preclude the Committee from taking into their consideration the state of the law in India, civil and criminal generally, because he was satisfied that without an inquiry embracing these subjects, the House could not arrive at any conclusion which would satisfy the just expectations of the people of this country and of India. Sir J. MACDONALD, as we understood him, requested Mr. Peel would furnish the House with the names of the Committee. Mr. PEEL said he had no objection to comply with the request of the Hon. Member. The number of names was considerable ; and he hoped that any Gentle man who might find his name entirely excluded, would not attribute such exclusion to any want of respect to him, but attribute it to the necessity that ex i s t e d of limiting the number. The number was extensive enough to insure not only a sufficient attendance, but to enable the Committee to divide themselves into sections for the consideration of papers, and such financial measures as might be laid before them. I n making out this list his Majesty's Go vernment had endeavoured to preserve as fair a representation as possible of the commercial and landed interests of the country. The Right Honourable Gentle man then read the list of the Committee, among which it appeared were the following names :—Mr. A. Baring, the.Marquie of Chandos, Mr. Huskisson, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Lord Milton, Mr. W. Ward, Mr. Astell, Mr. Arbuthnot, Mr. Hume, Mr. W. i Burrell, Mr. C. Fergusson, Sir R. Vyvyan, Mr. R. Grant, Mr. 11. Davis, Mr. Stanley, Mr. C. Ellison, Sir J. Macintosh, Mr. W. Wynn, Mr. S. Rice, Mr. S. Wortley, Lord Ashley, Mr. T. P. Courtenay, Mr. W. Cavendish, Mr. G. Bankes, Mr. W. Whitmore, Colonel Baillie, Mr. P. Thomson, Mr. Irving, Mr. W. O'Brien, Mr. Little ton, Mr. Alderman Thompson, Mr. J. Peel, and Mr. S. Wortley. Sir J. MACDONALD said, that the gentlemen ap pointed on the Committee would have to consider not only the commercial monopoly of the trade of China, but more particularly another question intimately connected with the commercial question, namely, the set tlement of British subjects in India, and under what regulations the civil irtatitutions of those different countries are conducted. Those considerations were of the most vital interest to the country. He was glad to hear from a Minister of the Crown, that the welfare of the mil lions under our rule in India was not to be lost sight of in the inquiry. Having heard that, he had determined not to say a single word on the subject, and nothing could have induced him to depart from that determination, were it not the publication of a most extraordinary letter, bearing the signature of a Noble Lord to whose superintendence the affairs of India were entrusted. How that letter came before the public, it might be interesting to the parties themselves to ascertain, but that could be of no import ance to that House. There the letter was; it was a letter from the highest departmental authorities to a Go vernor of that country, addressed to him, not for his amusement, but for his official instruction, and for the more particular guidance of hie public conduct. It could not he considered in any sense as a private letter. That letter conveyed to the Governor the tone and spirit in which it is was intended he should act in the administration of justice in that country.--(Hear, hear. ) He adverted to that letter now, because he thought that the tone and spirit were such as deserved animadversion.— Though he was anxious that a question of such vast im portance should be investigated, yet he must protest against the mode now proposed by the Right Hon. Gent. opposite ; he could not believe how the system of the Adminis tration of justice in India could be improved by this plat., on the contrary, he did not think that it could be more effectually brought into contempt with the public. He wished to know why it was considered necessary to expose the Committee to so much unnecessary trouble. --(The Hon. Member then made some allusion to the letter of Lord Ellenborough.)—The Right Honour able Gentleman had called on the House rather abrup'ly to consent to the appointment of a Committee ; it might seem invidious were he (Mr. Macdonald) to ob ject particularly to any one of the Members who were to compose that Committee, many of them were well qualified for the task, but he honestly confessed, that the general complexion of the Right Hon. Gentleman's Com mittee was not such as to afford satisficticn to the great trailing and commercial classes of this country; and in question of so much import ance, and to which public attention was now so completely directed it was essential that every thing which bore the appearance of suspicion should be strictly avoided. It was most desirable that the Committee should be so balanced as to take away, if possible, all appear ance of advocacy either on the part of the Com pany or the public.—( Hear, hear. )—He believed the Noble Lord at the head of the India Board when he wrote that letter, had done so without thought, and when he alluded to the renewal of the charter, he (Sir J. Macdonald) was certain that the Noble Lord was ignorant of the intention of his Majesty's Ministers. He could take it for granted they were in no wise pledged, and he once more begged to ex press his earnest hope that the Committee would be so framed as to give setiefaction to the important interests which were so deeply affected by this decision. Mr. HUkIE wished the Right Hon. Gentleman oppo site would inform the House if the duties of the Coin mittee were to be confined to present circumstances, or whether they were to have a retrospective operation. Mr. Secretary PEEL said, he lad no hesitation in answering the Hon. Member's qusstion. When he proposed the Committee he did so with the intention of taking the terms of the reference of the Committee of 1813, which would have the effect of opening every question that the most sanguine advocate for inquiry could desire. Before he sat down he felt that it was necessary to say one or two words in answer to the observations which fell from the Honourable Member fix Caine, with respect to the Committee which he (Mr. Peel) had the honour to propose. He would beg of the House to look to the names which appeared on that Committee, and he would ask whether there was any thing which could attach suspicion to there in the perform ance of the duty with which they had been intrusted.— There were two of the Members of the city of London, one for-Liverpool, one for Norwich, one for Lancashire, one for Dublin, one for Yorkshire, and the Member for Limerick. He surely thought that they could not be suspected of partiality to either side in the discharge of their duties. Sir JAMES MACDONALD, in explanation, said that he did not mean to insinuate any such charge against them, but he contended that the presence of so many of the East India Directors of that House, was calculated to excite suspicion however unfounded it might be in the public mind, and that be was most anxous 1 o avoid. Mr. HUME said that he hail no objection to any of the members of the Committee, but lie thought it might be extended in number with very beneficial effect, and he therefore begged to propose that the names of Sir Henry Parnell, Mr. Maberly, and Mr. Stuart be added thereto; he had no doubt that the gentlemen of the Honourable East India Company would not object to the appointment of these gentlemen as they were all well acquainted with the subject, and were practical men. Mr. G. BANKES was desirous of answering some re flections that had been thrown out by the Hon. Member for Caine against his Noble Friend at the head of the Board of Controul. On a former night belted felt consi derable embarrassment when certain papers were alluded to, because he had not had an opportunity of seeing or con versing with his Noble Friend on the subject, in conse quence of family affliction, and was not therefore in a situ ation to meet the matter as he otherwise should. He also felt embarrassment on other grounds : lie alluded to the necessity which might exist of referring, in the course of the discussion, to circumstances affecting other persons,— one of whom (Sir John Grant) was, perhaps, at this mo ment liable to be called on to answer certain charges else where, which might not appear altogether unconnected with topics to which be should have occasion to advert. Of course he was unwilling to say any thing that might seem to prejudice 'individuals so circumstanced. How ' ever, since the former discussion, he had had an opportu nity of informing himself, that the question before his Ma jesty in Council relating to Sir John Grant did not refer to circumstances that had taken place antecedent to the writing of the letter by the Noble Lord (Ellenhorough) : consequently all difficulty upon that bead was removed, and he was relieved from the feeling of delicacy which would otherwise have operated on his mind lest he should appear to affect, by his statements, persons who might afterwards be put upon their trial. But, he repeated, the circumstances lately considered before his Majesty in Council related to matters that had arisen subse quently to the date of the Noble Lord's letter, therefore he felt no difficulty in referring to that part of Sir John Grant's conduct which gave rise to that letter. He thought it right to set the Hon. Member's mind at rest upon one im portant point,—he alluded to that part of the lion. Mem ber's charge against the Noble Lord in which he blamed the Noble Lord and his colleagues in office, imputing to them a design of considering the great question of Indian affairs as one which they had already settled in their own minds, and with respect to which they were disposed to dictate to the public. The Hon. Member referred, with particular emphasis, to the sentence beginning, " as we may not impossibly renew the charter next ye tr," and in ferred from it that this was a matter on which Ministers had made up their minds without even the formality of consulting the wishes of the public. The Noble Lord had shown him a copy of the lever, the only one in his posses sion, and which came into his possession in this manner : It was sent from Bombay, by Sir J. Grant, to his son in this country, and by his courtesy handed to the N o bl e L or d, tainted in n t-h t e i n a view the charter next year." — ( Lau g hter, and cries of c c e o py the running, word ~ was as w n e o t ' fli ‘ r a e y n e n w o t , " i b n u i t p 0 " s s r i e b v i y i e w r e , '-' " Oh ! oh !")—On a former occasion, when the discus sion arose so unexpectedly upon this letter, and at a period too when it was peculiarly inconvenient to the person principally concerned, he suggested that for many reasons it might be only justice to his Noble Friend not to view this private and confidential letter as a public commenica tion made in the discharge of his official duty ; and at the same time be suggested that it was not only possible, but probable, that errors had crept into the document in the course of the various copies of it which had been taken, particularly as the copies that appeared in the English newspapers and in those of India differed in several r - spects. His conjecture had been fully borne out : it ap peared that on the authority of the hest accredited copy taken in India, there was an important variation in a ma terial, perhaps the most material word that occurred in the ootire letter. It would be seen, therefore, that the Hon. Member's fears were groundless when he imagined that the Government were disposed to prejudge the question of the renewal of the East India Cowpony's Charter. lie denied that there existed any design to lower the dignity, rein promise the character, or destroy the independence of the Judges in India. So far from this being the case, the di rect contrary was the fact, and lion. Members' fears on this head were equally visionary with their apprehension s upon the other. He disclaimed any such intention on the part of his Noble Friend or his colleagues. If such 11 de sign existed, he, who possessed opportunities of knowing the real seetiinente of the Noble Lord, was very ranc h mistaken indeed. He believed that no such design existed, and if any thing of the sort was itaputed to the members of the Board of Controul, it must have arisen from a mis construction of their proceedings. With respect to the circumstances which led to a correspondence between Sir John Malcolm and the Noble Lord, he had no intention of touching that part of the subject further than was necessary for the vindication of his Noble Friend- He might here be allowed to observe on the Pe culiar hardship of the case, as applicable to the charge brought against the Noble Lord. The discussion was raised at a period a great many months distant from the occurrences which occasioned the transaction—oeeur tences not my well known in England at the time, an'i now almsot forgotten. Such being the case, it appeared as if this letter were a manifesto intended to lower and degrade the character of the Judges in India; but so far from this being the case, the letter was a reply to commu nications made by Sir J. Malcolm to the Board of Con troul, under circumstances of considerable danger, excite ment, distress, and alarm. Sir J. Malcolm feeling the urgency of a crisis, arising out of a new experiment of legal authority made by the Judges of the Suprenme Court at Bombay, sent overland despatches to this country, giving an account of the proceedings in question, and call ing for the interposition of the home Government. In these communications he stated that the tranquillity of considerable part of India and the honour of the Govern ment was vitally concerned in having prompt attention paid to the subject. It was our first and paramount duty to consider the interest and happiness of the natives over whom were called to preside as rulers, and nothing could militate so much against their happiness and comfort as to allow an interference such as the Supreme Court of Bom bay attempted to exercise. By the Judges of that Court a new legal experiment was tried, the effect of which would be to render natives residing at any distance," how ever great, from the Presidency, amenable to the regula tions of the Court, although they were strangers to our larguage, cust me, and laws, and contemplated the latter with sentiments of fear and apprehension. In confirma tion of this fact, the Hon. Gentleman referred to a minute of Warren Hastings, in which it was stated that there was one general and universal feeling of abhorrence among the natives at the idea of the introduction of British laws. They had a great fear of being made amen able to our laws, or brought directly or indirectly within the reach of British Courts of Justice.—(A laugh. )—Consequently, when for the first time this ex periment was resorted to by the Supreme Court of Bout bay—an experiment contrary to all previous legal usage, and he would have appealed to the Hon. Member for Knaresborough (Sir James Mackintosh), were he in his place, to say whether, when he exercised the functions Of a Judge in India, he would not have shrank from a pro position to exercise an authority over the natives to which they were so repugnant—when such an attempt was made it naturally produced the most unfavourable effects. Yet two of the Judges of the Supreme Court held, that na tives living at eve: so great a distance from the Presidency were amenable to the British law; and they, no doubt, conscientiously, btit ignorantly, issued a process to s Hindoo (although there was no pretence that he wits amenable to their authority), and when an expression of natural indignation and repugnance was excited from the native by this proceeding, they issued further processes , not unaccompanied by threats. The consequence of this was, an appeal on the part of the native to Sir John Malcolm, who, 'acting with the vigour and propriety that invariably characterised his conduct, interposed, and de clared that such processes should not be issued against the natives for the first time during his administration. Ile acted with mildness, temper, and moderation, and tried the effect of remonstrance upon the Court, but the Judges persisted in urging their claims to the assumed authority At this period the death of one of the Judges (Sir C. Chambers) put an end to the controversy. Of that fenc tionmy he would say, that he was an amiable, conscien tious, and upright man as ever lived ; he had' made an un happy mistake—(" No, no,")—there was the authority of his Majesty in Council for the assertion. Sir J. Malcolm sent home despatches giving an account of these transac tions, lint leaving it to the authorities here to act with re spect to them as they should deem proper ; and it Noe in reference to these matters that the private letter Of the Noble Lord was written. There were then two va cancies on the bench of the Supreme Court at , Bombay, and they were supplied ender the circumstances mention"l in the letter. The observations made upon the letter went far beyond what was fdrly authorized by it s terms. With respect to the appointments of the new Judges made by the Noble Lord on that occasion, no improper motive could be attributed to him, as he had, in fact, appointed two persons, both of whom were unknown to him except by name. The reason and represenfafons which had induced the Noble Lord to appoint these gentlemen were very properly set forth in the letter. With respect to one of them, Sir Wil liam Seymour, he wished to refer particularly to the words of that document, bec tole they showed that not only had Lord Ellenborough been actuated by no improper n otice or inducement, hut that he acted upon principles which were much to his honour. The terms of the letter were these—" The puisne judge appointed in the room of Sir C. Chambers is Mr. William Seymour, of the Chancery bar. The Lord Chancellor has a very good opinion of him, and generally, I think, he appeared to have higher claims than any other candidate. He is a gentleman in his manners, and a man of cultivated mind. He seems to have right notions of his duty." Now be observed on a former night upon the hardship of judging of a person's public conduct from a private and confidential letter; and for this, among other reaomme,—that expressions might be treed in such a communication, in an apparently ambiguous sense, which might yet convey a perfect and consistent mean ing, only clear to the parties writing and receiving such a doe cumin'. A knowledge of particular circums ances was often necessary, in order to enable us to fix the true meaning of pri vate communications, and that knowledge was sometimes only to be procured from the authors of them. Such was the case in the present instance: the Noble Lord assured him that the phrase " right notions of his duty," which might per haps he misconstrued, was used in consequence of the fol lowing circumstance :—Mr. Seymour waited upon the Noble Lord upon the occasion of his appointment, when Lord Ellenberough, entering into conversation with hint with respect to the duties of a Judge, and wishing to sa tisfy himself how far Mr. Seymour was a fit person to fill that situation, put some general questions to him upon the subject, to which Mr. Seymour replied, " I cannot an swer you better or otherwise than by showing you what I consider those ditties to be," and, producing certain ex tracts from the works of Sir W. Jones, which bore upon the question, he continued—" These embody my notions as to the duties of a British Judge in India, and According to the rules which they lay down I shall regulate my con duct." It was to this the Noble Lord referred, when he said Mr. Seymour " seemed to have right notions of his duty."—(Hear, and laughter.)—He was sure the House would excuse him for the anxiety which he had displayed to vindicate the conduct of his Noble Friend, who was absent, and felt most desirous for the removal of such im putations as hail been most unfairly cast upon him. The Noble Lord's feeling when he wrote the letter in question was, that one of our chief duties was to watch over and protect the interests of the natives whO were Placed under our controul ; and if, under the influence of such a feeling. he had used any ambiguous expression that seemed to evince a disposition to lower and disgrace the character of English Judges in India, that interpretation was far ,from being tho true one. The idea that such was his Noble Friend" wish could have arisen only from a misconception of the true design of the letter. It ores a part of the Noble Lord's duty to vindicate the privilegesof the natives against the assumptions of the Supreme Court of Bombay,—.the rather, as the natives were in a state of the utmost excite ment, alarm, and dejection, at the measures of that court. The matter had become a subject of consideration before the Government at home—it was referred to the King in Council ; and this was nn authority to which he pre sumedi t been b e v r o e r u e g • h t wouldo b d e y fore e how co u a n s c ildecisive. Not ot b y E tze t h G o o w v e h r a n d . ment of Ilambly—not by the Board of Controul—but at the instance of Sir .1. Grant himself, who in s i s t e d o pen being heard before that Court. The result was, that om every point the Council decided that Sir J. Grant was roe timely wrong. The Lord Chancellor, the Lord Chief Baron, and both the Chief Justices were present •at this decision. Under such circumstances, where the ledge was so much in the wrong, end the Governor so mue in the right, end where the distress and alarm of the natives were so great—so painfully pressed upon our notice—was it not a venial error (if any) that an individual, actu ited like the Noble Lord, should have written a letter, the ob ject of which was to comfort and protect the native. inh.s bitants of India ?—( Hears and a laugh.)—lt might be sa rl " was it to he borne that public functionaries. shon'd send despatches of a public nature of one tendency, and. private letters, perhaps, of another?'' lie answered, that the Noble Lord had no authority to send public despatch s to India, and therefore could nut forward efflcial instetece mut contradictory to his private letter, which had been co rreriee; disputes fixed, so sarY• g. hutted his that had I that the I lie did ni appeared In it agail pointed o Paper cop Friend ht producing respect tt eial office Mr, S' of an imi In our In tontaino Which, 1 the lette (Hear, I answe r t the subje the Goy should 11 the tablt Malcol m opposing like to Afembe r _ Parli further, which office frc 'Supromi between The for! Jut (the the mat by a ma a place premeJ in the the Cou Was pre acceptin ceedingt DeCellSa o.q ding to have eneed I) , hear tl: any one fering authori the gra preten e denied. ziecessal lug of resoluti, the dal Fat est; indep en Accordi tnagistr charged aiding, as they Sir J. Quite I ground The onl diction consider land fr ti ON, it ' d ot . k , s; Prc "..tt ee 114,. ; k Pliztr et A"Ni t rt ed tide to Right ~ co u , tr ven ) I t!le All th 4