The Sun. — London, England, 1830-02-16 00:00:00

hen een ,of nee ioui ►ord from that t the were rates eft it rong ation lately r the days since the country that a despotism or democracy ; how- ' ever, if the f-xpences of supporting the pre.ent form uf government were so unreasonable, it became a serious tpteation how long such a scale ought to be continued.—(Hear.) —Between the years 1769 and Iffl4 the Sovereign had asked for an increase to the Civil list eight different times ; and sums amount ing to. 5,747,0001. above the allowance provided by Act of Parliament, were from time to time voted. We were to recollect t hat t here had been 1,653,000/ itt droits of Admiralty, &c., exclusive of the civil list, appro; . triated to the Crown. Faith had not been kept with the people on the subject of the civil list, which was settled on the basis of a fixed sum being allotted to the Sovereign, on condition that the produce of the crown lands, &c., should come in aid of the revenue. There hail been col lected on account of crown lands 'not less than :3,000,0004, of which only 500,0004 was paid into the revenue. The Hon. Member stronely censured the conduct of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests, with respect to the crown lands, and added, that if Mini , ter: did nor do what they ought to do in the matter of the Royal expenditure, the Mouse should speak out on the subject. The pro duce of the crown lanais was in 1827, 270,000/., and 245,0004 in 1828; but a century ago they were capable of producing from 200,0001. to 300,000/.; mud it Was stated in the seventeenth report of the Commissioners in 1793, that if all the fee-farms were sold, they ought to produce a sum of 400,000/., and that 'the rents ought to be thenceforth 400,0001. a-year. The consequence of allowing the money to remain in the hands of the Board of Commissioners Was, that it was frittered away and applied to im proper purposes, so that the public did not derive that degree of benefit from it which they were en titled to expect. If there was any difficulty in the management of the crown land-, let the whole be sold. The Hon. Member proceeded to in% eigh against the enormous expense ineurred in building and repairing palaces ; and declared that there were matters connecred with these items of expenditure for which Ministers ought to he impeached. A sum of 1,356,000/. was included in the estimates for these undertakings in the last two years. He did not blame tile present Ministers exclusively, for the lavish expenditure that had been incurred at Windsor Castle andßuckingbam Palace; their pre decessors were accountable for much of the mischief. For his own part he should propose to-stop the sup plies till his Majesty was brought to his senses. Let us not vote a single shilling till we obtained a clear understand'ng as to when there would be an "od of all this folly and extravagance. The Hon. Gentleman next alluded to the absurd project of ex pending 2,500,000/. upon public works in the wilds of Canada, and censured the grant of 450,0001. to the Duke of Athol for relinquishing his rights in the Isle of Man, including 247,000/. for the bishopric of Sodor and Man. We heard a great many com plaints from the landed interests relative to the pay- pent of 7,000,0001. for the support of ,the poor, bit the burthen entailed upon the ctnintryby pensions and lthlegures was generally overlooked. It appeared t i .hat . in' 1827, the amount of pensions for England, Ireland, and Scotland, was 772,0001., exclusive Of the half-pay and civil and military dead weight; the latter of which had increased instead of being dimi nished since 1817. The number of naval officers who held commissions now was 5,500,—as great a number as we had years ago • and our expenses in this way were greatly increased by the plan of omit ting to take persons from the half-pay list, instead of creating new commisions. We ought to put an end t o pensions—(Hear)---and grant none except to persons disabled in the public service, as was the practice in America. In 1810, the amount of civil pensions was 94,0001., and in 1827 it had reached .to 484,0001. Whether it was not proper to recon sider the very large allowance made to the Royal Fa mily, was a point which he would not then argue; but certainly he thought it ought to be reconsidered. The next point to which he had to call their attention was 'the amount of pensions for services in the colonies. These pensions amounted to 30,0001., and Cite system was, in fact, a way of evading the superintendence of that House, which ought not to be. The Civil List, which . amounted to upwards of 1,000,0001., was not, he knew, all paid to his Majesty ; but he contended that the salaries of Judges, and other items of the like kind, ought to be separated from it ; and the Civil List made, what every one sup ' posed it was, namely, a provision for his Majesty. The sums paid for the diplomacy of this country were enormous, and an Address for reviewing this expense ought to be made immediately to his Ma jesty. The salaries of our Ambassadors amounted to 226,950/. Including Consuls, Missions, and so forth, the whole amount of this item was 450,000/. The presents which were charged in this account ought to be abolished. They were given, he per ceived, on every occasion,—for instance, in a mis sion to Mexico : and such a system was enough to contaminate any republic in the world—(Hear, and laughter) —especially since in many States there was an express law against receiving presents. See how our diplomacy was managed in better times. By a return of the expenses incurred under this head, from 1792 to 1821, it appeared that the whole ex pense in 1793 was 113,000/. It had gone on in creasing, year after year, until it bad reached the enormous amount he had just stated. He contended that 250,0001. ought to be cut off immediately from this charge. See how well these matters were ma naged in the United States. The Americans paid each of their Ambassadors 2,000/. a-year., and they obtataed as much knowledge and as great talents for their 2 ,000/., as we obtained for our 12,000/. or 1503 0/- The debt of the Americans, in 1816, %vas 11 4,000,000 of dollars. We had made no re duction in our debt, but they had almost cleared themselves since that time, and would be out of debt, next year. He had now, he believed, dis posed of the Civil List; but, at parting, he begged to say a word about the Irish Civil List. That amounted to 2 70,000/. Now, in the first place, he would withdraw the Lord Lieutenant from Ireland, make the Union a real Union, and S avo 1 00,000/. a-year. The next point he c ame to was the army. The vote last year was, in round numbers, for 90,000 infantry, which was twice the number we b a d i n 1792. H e co ntended, that 20 might easily reduce our force by as much as i t ()00 men. Our artillery was nearly double what Was in 1792; and there had been a proportionate incre ase in th e nav y. If we were to reduce our , -va i expenditu re by 1,500,000/., and take 20,000 mete from our military force, we should still have a og°oo,odoai,nd efficient navy, and . an army of more than co - V,Ten," which was', quite as great as caution trib mildrevire. Next he had to complain of the dis• ao hl!tlii,n of our army. Why . were not some of our 'eks;:withdrawn from Ireland, now that that cLunitri was pacified. - „H e -was sure that a very large I t 'cuner might be safely witbdrawn.. Then, look at e,expence we.were. at for our military, force kept t'iii the colonies.. There could be no necessity for • e xpense -When he looked at-the force kept up t h e ,., • w e inlan Islands, 'he could not help asking, why 11 i :u ts " oUld' keep those islands any longer ? Let us ea compliment of the lonian Islands to King a to nit , ° “ 1 , in. order to strengthen his hands. — (Hear, la ughter.) They were of •no use to us ; they w er e withdraw worth the expense they cost : let us then our troops, amid make a compliment of the • )s to King Leopold. All these expenses would a y e thor - otighly investigated if the labours of e ve H been Committee had been suffered to go on. He thank e d the Hon. Member for Queen's county (S • H—Parnell) f o r his exertions on that Corn ' C a tt ee, and p ar ti cu l ar ly f o r the account which he "" r eady to submit to the Committee, if Govern - , ° tent had not shrunk from the inquiry, and thrown .. the Committee overboard, in defiance of the wishes and tfie expectations of the country.—(Hear, hear.) They should, howeier, he was happy to know, $ a r e ‘ an. opportunity, in a few days, of being made ted with' the .11011. Baronet's views of the fii .7" 3 that ought - 6 be made. Hon. MeMbers cone Wh ere d epend. on it, that unless some relief were count w4r e the pressure of the screw pinched, the r Y would be brought into:a situation in which Now, 1 their ace uP ras de of the it with be no 1 been •d of it , e kept ablish 1. By I down ant they nearly f 179 1 ‘• maintain ind theY n. The k e expo' leir cony he wag ation3 o f , edingi . 01 re had a I not be !ded year racticab l6 :hat must and vita' her distresses would force themselves on our atten tion in a manner not tp) be mistaken or longer de- Dived. Still, ho ver, he would mit be understood as saying that we should despair of the situation of the country : her resources were yet powerful, and if a timely remedy was applied—proper reductions were made, there could be no doubt that we should be able to get over all our difficubies. The Hon. Mem la,u- then went on to contend, that in every one of our public departments the expences could be re duced, s as materally to benefit the country. There was a paymaster for the army, another for the navy, and another for the ordnance : the duties of all of which could be performed by one officer at much less expence than coy one of those—particu larly either of the two former—cost the country. If the Finance Committee hnd been continued, he could have demonstrated this ; but he had 'seen weak enough to believe, that when Ministers dis continued that Committee, they themselves would have undertaken the reductions. However, he would not be so eadly deceived another time.— (Hear.) —He then went on to point out the reduc tions he would have made. The Board of Ord _ _ luetions he would make. In tlq , first place, hr would not employ the surplus revtiri , in buying up the Three per Cents., nnr wohld he leave h as a Sinking Fund. He remembend when some of his commercial friends near him hear.l some years ago advise the abolition of that land, they became alarmed, and said the credit of the country would be ruined if we had no Sinking Fund; but he then predicted, and it had come to pass, t h at without any Sinking Fund the Three per Cents,: would come up to nearly 100. The Sinking Fund was one of the greatest delusions the country had ever seen, and by means of it this country had lost 200,000,0001. of money, by the facility w►th which it had enabled Mr. Pitt to raise his several ruin ous loans. his plan would be, to let the surplus re venue go to the reduction of taxation. He would reduce the taxes on malt, on tobacco, on wine, and foreign spirits, and he would abolish the whole sys tem of coast blockade—(Hear, hear), —by which, besides getting rid of that which created much ill blood, the country would be saved a sum amounting to ,about 700,0001. a year. The whole of the re ductions which he proposed would amount to about 8,000,0001.; but he contended that though this would be a saving in taxation, it would not be so much loss to the revenue, which would be benefited by increased consumption. The surplus revenue he would apply in the reduction of taxation, and not leave it at the disposal of the Chancellor of the Ex chequer, for every Chancellor of the Exchequer whom he had known was disposed to make a bad use of it. He was of opinion that nothing in the present state of the country was more necessary or desirable than a review of the finances. When he had expressed ....,••.. .•,.. •• .... nonce he would abolish, and have the principal part of its duties tinder the controul of the Commander in-Chief. The Ordnance Storekeeper's depart ment should also be abolished, and he would have, particularly in the colonies, the ordnance, naval, and military stores, kept by one officer. The expensive system of barracks, which had increased from 25,000/. to 200,0001. or 300,0001., he would also reduce. It might be said that as long as there were soldiers there should be barracks for them. True ; but let the reduction which he proposed of 20,000 infantry be made, and it would be seen with what rapidity all the others which he suggested would fol low. The lion. Member next proceeded to contend that there ought to be a reduction of taxation on malt, on wine, on foreign spirits, and entered into se veral calculations to show that the consumption of malt is not at present (not►vithstanding the great increase which had since taken place in the population) so great as it was in the year 1785. In the ten years from 1785 to 1794, the consumption was 25,725,000 bushel ; while in the ten years from 1814. to 1824 it was only 25,000,000. It was the same in several other articles of con sumption. In proportion as the tax was increased, •the consumption of, and of course the revenue from, it decreased. -From the same cause there had been no increase worth naming in our post-office revenue for the last 20 years. Now he would suggest to reduce the rates of postage to about half the present amount, and he was convinced that, besides the great convenience and advantage to commerce, the revenue from it would considerably increase. In the several departments, the Treasury, the colonial and Foreign departments, the expense had increased, in some more than half, and in others fourfold. That his disapprobation of the funding of eight millions of Exchequer Bills, some one taunted him with the re proach of impatience, and required that lie should wait until he had an opportunity of seeing the ad vantages which were expected to accrue. He re mained silent accordingly, but a very short period only elapsed before his anticipations were verified to their utmost extent, as the loss of two millions by the operation of the system soon testified. • lts falla ciousness was at length become so evident, that he wished Ministers would apply their three millions of surplus to the purpo.se - Of taking the Exchequer Bills out of the market altogether. In fact, we had been losing at an enormous rate, for we lost 100/, when we only gained 941. He would have the Chancellor of the Exchequer appropriate the surplus revenue to paying off quarterly until they had got entirely rid of - this encumbrance, which had criginated in policy so palpably erroneous. This however, he was aware, would be most strenuously opposed by certain personages of the Stock Exchange, whose influence was known to be but too powerful with our rulers. They would oppose it, because their affluence must be maintained by national gambling. The more injury to the country in this respect the more benefit to them. But while we were thus ruining ourselves by a progressi‘e arithme tical descent, he would ash what might not the money so lost have done for us, if applied in the shape of tangible relief to the suffering population. It would have saved half the people from starving, or repealed the taxes that pressed heaviest on the poorer classes, who were at all times the greatest sufferers.—(Hear, hear.)—He had all along re gretted that he had not appropriated the surplus revenue to the reduction of taxation, instead of tampering in loans and carrying on negotiations which ended in our receiving in one hand only in order to pay back with the other. Nor ought the Ministry to purchase one shilling of 3 per Cents.; their doing so was inconsistent with the prosperity of the country. His Hon. Friend, the Member for the Queen's County (to whose good sense and ex perience he more especially appealed), he was sure, would sanction and support what he had recom mended. If it should be adopted, he would venture to say that in seventy, or eighty, or at the most, in about ninety years they would be enabled to convert the national debt into a termi nable debt. Let Ministers be once induced to make a beginning in good earnest, and it would inevitably lead them to the most beneficial results. In the event of their acceding to his motion, the consequence would be a general reduction in all departments, of such a nature as to produce at the same time incon venience and embarrassment to none. He would propose first, in the army, a reduction to the amount of 180,0001., which could be very easily done by bringing the staff within proper limits, by placing all those military stations where a Major- General or other officer of high rank had command on the same footing as in 1796, and by introducing various other reformations which it was unnecessary at present to specify in detail. Then in the navy he would act on a similar principle, by stopping im mediately the useless building of ships, and the erection of dock-yards, with the whole train of their heavy concomitant expenses. In the item of transport vessels alone there existed the greatest extravagance, and a proportionably rigorous re trenchment was demanded. The amount of the reductions in the navy he might estimate at about 120,000/., which would still leave its capacity for public service unimpaired, and efficient as hitherto. In the miscellaneous department a reduction of 1,400,0001. might be easily effected. During late years our expenditure in this respect had increased beyond credibility. In the years 1789, 1790, and 1791, the whole average of the miscellaneous ex penditure had amounted annually to but 1 50,000/. Again, the collection of the revenue was in itself an article of expense that might be curtailed to the amount of 1,000,0001. sterling,—a fact which Ministers would do well to keep in mind when they contemplated a reduction of taxation, as it suggested an additional motive for creating such abatements. He thought that it wou ld be politic to alter the duty on tobacco, and on all other articles where a temptation to smuggling was in any degree held out. The overwhelming expense of keeping up some of our public buildings ought likewise to be materially retrenched. These redactions altoge ther might be computed at 5,650,0001., besides which he would propose in the diplomatic depart ment a diminution of 300,0001. from the gross ex penditure which it cost us annually at present. He would, moreover, recommend that the crown lands should be let out at a reasonable rent, or disposed of in toto for 500,0001.,—thus winding up the whole concern by a judicious sale of the entire property. The saving to the country would now amount to 6,450,0001. independent of 1,550,0001. of surplus revenue, which would place at their disposal an important aggregate to be applied to the relief of the popula tion. It would enable them to repeal the whole duty on coals, which although a remedy of a partial description, was nevertheless in the existing state of the community particularly desirable. In his opinion the duty on soap ought also to_ be removed, for reasons equally cogent. This duty brought in annually to the revenue 1,414,0001., but was highly inexpedient, inasmuch as it added 4d. to the price of the article, although the duty itself was but 2d., or rather that which now cost 6d., if the duty were taken off, would be valued at 3d. The next reduc tion should relate to candles, as this tax pressed hardest on the poor villager, who expended his far thing candle nightly, and was obliged to forego in a great measure that necessary indulgence. The amount of the duty had latterly increased, and he was sorry for such an increase from the time that he had discovered the reason. The humble artisan and needy workman, he understood, were now con strained to labour half the night, in order to eke out their subsistence, and thereby had created this small addition to the revenue.—(Hear.)—The duty was only Id. per pound, whilst it added 21d. to the price. The same objection, therefore, applied to this tax as the former; nor ought the charges of collection to be forgotten in calculating the policy of their repeal, although this it was probable did not enter into the account of the Chancellor of the Ex chequer. Another reduction which he should sug gest, would be that of the duty on leather, which amounted to 383,0001. This subject, he was aware, might occasion some little odium, but the present system was avowedly open to objection. Take in the department for Foreign Affairs they had enormously increased, but it should not be wondered at when we had messengers travelling backwards and forwards all over Europe, at an extravagant charge, and 40,000/. or 50,0001. secret service money, in a time of profound peace. With respect to the Treasury, some reductions of expense had been made since JB2O, and he gave Government credit for them; but still the scale was too high. The scale of all public salaries, limn the King dowe wards, was too high, and would bear being brought down a peg or two. The establishment of the Treasury was rendered so large and expensive, because that department reserved to itself a power of revising the acts of other Boards ; but instead of this he would have those other Boards, such as the Customs, where there were 18 or 19 commis siones, and the Excise, where there were 16 com missioners, reduced to five each, and let those Boards decide on all cases which came before them, except in annie very particular circumstances; and then it would not be necessary to keep up such an establishment at the Treasury. He would now come to the collection of the revenue, and he had no he sitation in saying, that without any risk as to the mode of collection, the expence might be reduced from 4,000,000/. to 2,500,000/., thus making a saving of 1,500,000/. yearly. There was, for instance, the collection of the stamp duties in Scotland, which was done at 6 per cent. Now lie had offered to collect it at 2i per cent. It would have been a nice thing for him to have the appointment of the seve ral distributors of stamps throughout that country, yet Mini-ters refused his offer.—(Hear, and a laugh.) There was one man in Aberdeen who, without stir ring out of his shop, made an lucerne of 1,2001. a year as a distributor of stamps. He would also abo lish the offices of Receivers-General of Taxes in counties. This was an expense which was wholly unnecessary. The Finance Committee had recom mended, where two Receiver,,-General were ap pointed for a county, that as a vacancy occurred, it should not be filled up, but the whole duty be per formed by the surviving receiver, without any in crease of salary; and on this he would admit the Government had acted. In one case of the kind, the surviving receiver wrote to the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the subject, and complained of the hardship of being called upon to do double duty fur the same salary. The Right Hon. Gentleman referred the writer to him (Mr. flume), observing that he was the author of the measure. He answered the gentleman (who had complained to him of the hardships of beim7 called on to receive the taxes of a whole county for his former salary of GOO/. a-year), and expressed his regret that he should suffer from a general measure, intended for the public good ; but added, that if the gentleman did not wish to bold the office on those terms, he (Mr. Hume) would be very glad to have the nomination of his successor, after which he heard no more on the subject.— (Hear, and a laugh.)—He would not be satisfied with the half measure,—he would abolish the whole of the Receiver-Generalships, by which a saving of 50,000/. or 60,000/. a-year would be made to the country. The whole of the taxes could be as effec tually received by the collectors of excise : and it would be only adding another item to their collec tions in their respective districts. A collector of excise, who was asked what he thought would be a fair remuneration for this additional trouble of col lection, answered that he thought an addition of 50/ a-year would be a very fair recompense. It was objected to him, when this was proposed, that the collectors could not give sufficient security; but he met the objection at once, by stating that from Lancashire excise revenue to the amount of 1,800,000/. was sent up, and the highest security given by any person engaged in its collection was .5,000/., and there was no such thing heard of as a defalcation. He had calculated, that out of 355,000,0001. of excise, there was no defalcation, except one of 30,0001, which was occasioned by the death of a collector, but the circumstances connected with the default were accidental ; but from papers on the table of the House, it appeared that in the accounts of Receivers-General of counties there had been defalcations to the amount of 355,000/. In the Excise, however, great care was taken in the se lection of collectors, no man being chosen for that office who was not well known to be trustworthy, and who had previously served as a riding-officer and supervisor, and also been twenty years in the ser vice. He could wish that the same care was ob served in all other public departments. He next called the attention of the House to the state of the Board of Excise, in which, though the department ' came nearer to perfection than any other, he would reduce the number of Commissioners to five. He could not see the use of sixteen Commissioners, except to act as relays, while some of the number were absent two or three months for their amuse ment. He would abolish the Board of Stamps, and unite two or three of the smaller boards, by which the duty now performed by two or three would be as effectually done by one, with not a greater num ber of Commissioners than on the smallest of those boards. By such reductions he contended that a saving of 1,500,000/. a year would be made to the country. It might be said that it was easy to talk of those reductions, but he would bring the thing to book, and prove that what he proposed was eaiily practicable. He would now state what other•re i place what elisaestliere might, there was found to be ments, the rather, as the Hon. Member had spoken ;(3 abatewe .; i!i ilit. ;nit, of shoes, which might be from documents and calculations the result of the st , ributed to Ow :Hilted: its attendant on the preli- labours of a series of years, while he was called upon minary nianefeeterieee The profits would be ncces to 'Titre them wholly unarmed and unprepared sarily tco stes'i for subsistence at a much lower price with the requie;te official papers. Besides, so ex when the curryin2: and other preparatory pro tensive was the scope of the Hon. Member's obser cesaes were divide] into so many Lands. If any one vations, that it was impossible to catch his meaning, tradesmen should attempt to unite them in his own save here and these be piecemeal. He was placed person, he subjected himself to a ruinous fine, which, In rather a strange position by the lion. Member. coupled with the difficulty of evading the excise It was the usual course for the Chancellor of the penalties when so incurred, be was given to under- Exchequer to bring forward that annual statement of st rid had prevented numbers from entering the trade. the income and expenditure of the country, known by If the duty were taken off, he had no doubt that the the name of the budget ; but in consequence of the future price would be 4 , 0 per cent. less than the pre- Hon. Member's strange course of proceeding, he sent. Government, however, would enjoy at the should have, car the first time, to present himselfthen to same time a corresponding advantage to the amount the lionse, not as the proposer, brit as the opposer of 20 per cent. at least in their purchase of the leather o f the budget.—(hear.)—Under these circuits consumed in the military service. In addition to stances, therefore, he thought his wisest course this he would withdraw the duty on beer, which would be not to enter into a detail of the several amounted to 3,204,0004, while the expellee of col- topics discussed by the Hon. Member, but to save lecting it came to 380,0001. Leaving a difference of the time of the House by ut once objecting to the about 2,800,000/. This tax was an especial grievance Hon. Member's general motion. He propose& then, to the poor, although it did not affect country gentle- to follow that course, save on one or two particular men in the same degree, but he felt convinced that points, in order, by a refutation of them, to induce they would be the last to complain, if their humbler , the House to believe that the other statements of neighbours were placed on a level with themselves the I-lon. Member could and would be equally re in this particular.—(Hear, hear.)—lt was hard, in • plied to on the proper occasion. What, then, in deed, that the poor man should be obliged to pay a the first place, was the objeet of the Hon. Mew tax at the rate of 50s. upon malt, when the rich were ber's motion ? He called upon the House to repeal required to render or:ly 30s.—(Hear.) —Another the taxes necessary to the public expenditure to the tax to the amount of 37,0001., on cider and perry, in greatest possible extent.—(Hear, hear.)—lf the the distress which now existed throughout the west Hon. Member had confined his proposition to a of England, it would be equally expedient to abolish, general expression of this recommendation, he for A reduction of one half in this duty had been already one would not oppose it, and would leave it to the accomplished a few years ago, and the relief which wisdom of Parliament to determine how that reduc was then extended hal greatly ameliorated the con- tion could be best effected without detriment to the dition of those who laboured under its influence. A public service. But as the Hon. Member had similar relaxation was never more Wanted than at added to this general recommendation a specific plan present. He would next repeal the window duty, of repeal of taxes, by a reduction of our civil, naval, which amounted to 1,164,155/., and the inhabited and military establishments, without waiting for the house duty, which was 1,295,1721. The latter tax, estimates of those establishments being laid before he was assured, had obliged many to wander abroad, the House,—without waiting to see whether any exiles from their country, being unable to keep and what reductions might be proposed in them up an establishment at home. Removing such an by Ministers,—he would not acquiesce with the obstacle would be an inducement in favour of their , lion. Member's motion. If a reduction be expedient, • return ; they would contribute to the employment of how could Parliament determine its amount or its the poor in their neighbourhood, and so far conduce to practicability, till it had inquired into the neces the prosperity of their native land. The absentee tax city and general bearing of the several branches of would then be no longer necessary, as he had no doubt the public expenditure? And how could that ne , but that in nine cases out of ten our countrymen cessary inquiry be instituted before Ministers had I who resided in foreign kingdoms were driven laid before the House the responsible official state thither against their better inclination, for the mere mew of the amount of the several estimates for purposes of economy. Hereafter, however, it was the year, so as to enable the House to decide upon to be hoped that in Devonshire and many other the economy or extravagance observed in the ma parts of England they could live equally cheap, and nagement of the public money ? As a departure, that their return would be compatible with their then, from the usual practice of Parliament, the Hon. anxiety for retrenchment. By the removal of those Member's motion was highly objectionable. Instead two taxes, they would be enabled to add 2,460,0001. of first determining the minimum of expenditure to the other reductions, which would take, in all, a compatible with the efficiency of the establishments sum of 8,835,832/. off the pecuniary burdens of the of the country, and then adjusting the revenue to country. But he would not stop here; for it would that expenditure, the Hon. Member reversed the be expedient to pare down the expenditure on the process, and asked die House to lay down a mini same principle. lie would recommend also an abo- mum of revenue, to which he would apportion the litien of the tax on corn, notwithstanding the exist- expenditure. Was this, he would ask, the course care of which the importation of this year had been most fitted for forwarding the general weal ? Was large beyond example. He would beg of those who not the usage hitherto followed that best adapted were opposed to free trade only to consider for one for promoting the public service ? And on what moment time necessary effects of the system which grounds did the Hon. Member ask the House to they so strenuously advocated. By lessening the depart from its usual practice ? Why, says the proceeds of the labourers and artisans, did it not Hon. Member, to take away the power from Ministers render diem unable to purchase the butter, cheese, of injuring the finances of the country. But did not cattle, and other articles of consumption yielded by the Hon. Memberperceive that by the same process the estates of those gentlemen themselves ? The he would take away from Ministers the power of employment of the humbler classes was at an end, doing good to the country. For how could they and they were eventually thrown on the poor-rates venture to entertain views and consider objects in re for subsistence, thus becoming a burden and dead- lotion to the public welfare, if they possessed no dis weight on the properties which, under other cir- cretionary but responsible controul over the arrange cuinstances, they might have contributed to enrich. ment of their respective offices ? What set of honour- These two advantages were surely enough to coun- able men would consent to fill the posts of Government, terbalance the more direct effect of the protection, if, in the spirit of the Hon. Member's wild and ex and landed proprietors therefore lost more in value travagant speculations, they were deprived of all in one way than they could gain in another. Then official controul? He called them wild and extra redactions ought also to be effected in the duties on vagant speculations, for what did they mean to ef tobacco, foreign spirits, sugar, glass, and paper, res- feet f The Hon. Member proposed to reduce the pectively. There was likewise a tax, which it had taxes by 9,000,0004—( Hear, hear.) —But how did been supposed Ministers had had it in contemplation the Hon. Member propose to effect that reduction ? last year to remove, he alluded to that upon insurance. Did the Hon. Member recollect that 29,000,000/. of But, without dwelling further upon that point, lie the taxes annually raised in this country went to pay would recommend generally that taxes upon all raw the interest of the National Debt; and that if the articles arid manufactures should be very much dimi- dead weight and other expenditures to which the nished, as tending to interrupt the industry of manu- national honour is pledged be added to that interest facturers. It ought to be recollected that taxes to item, there remains but from 10,000,0001. to the amount of 27,000,000/. had been taken off in 11,000,000/. of surplus, from which, forthwith, the the year 1828, at the recommendation of the Finance Hon. Member proposes to deduct 9,000,0004 — Committee, yet no less accrued from the abatement, ( Hear.) —Did not the very statement of t h e propo it gave such elasticity to industry, and had so far re- s i t ion expose its absurdity ? He would not andel novated the energies and resources of the nation.— pate the discussion which the estimates (o f which At other and less critical periods members might those for the army would be very shortly before the often be brought to agree upon half-measures, but House) for the year would give rise to, and there now, when the cry for retrenchment and the reduc- fore would not take up the time of the House by Lion of taxation was so general throughout the land, proving that time expenditure which the Hon. Mern it became necessary to do something more perma- ber proposed to reduce by 9,000,000/. was regu nent iti its nature and more decided in point of po licy. A ministerial pledge of such a character had fated by the most rigid principles of economy. There was, however, one other point, which lie been given in 1821 ; but that pledge was broken, nor could not help animadverting upon, constituting as had it ever awakened his confidence. On the mo- it did a leading feature in the Hon. Member's speech Lion which he should now have the honour of sub- —one, indeed, upon which he had more than once mitting, he presumed that there could be but one at other times enlarged. The Hon. Member , in his opinion entertained. He could not imagine that any allusion to a high personage, whose name was not man in that House was composed of such materials mentioned in the proceedings of that House, had as to be capable of pronouncing such a resolution to not only departed from the usage and order of be unnecessary. The Hon. Member then read his Parliament, but had made use of language which, motion, which was to the following effect :—" That in spirit and terms, could not be too strongly re an humble address be presented to his Majesty, re commending the repeal or modification of all taxes probated. The Hon. Member proposed in the first place to alter the arrangements made with the in our civil, military, and naval establishments, as a Crown for the maintenance of its dignity on the means 'of affording immediate and effectual re- accession of his oresent Majesty. He held up the lief to the country."—(Hear, hear, hear.)—He was civil list as one of those branches of the public happy to find that the House expressed such ala- expenditure from which a large reduction should be crity and readiness to vote in favour of what made forthwith, without a reference to circum he had just read.—(Laughter.) Would any Mena- stances. Nay, more, he called Ministers to task her present be prepared to reply that they were not for not having sooner made the reduction which he .in a condition to give relief, or that there was any proposed themselves. But the Hon. Member, be better mode of administering such relief than that fore he blamed them on this score, should have which he had suggested ? Could those who agreed considered the relation in which they stood to the with Ministers in avowing the expediency of reduc- civil list. They found it, in the first place, fixed by tion refuse to go with him in his extension of the a deliberative act of the Legislature. They found same principle to the relief of the population? He that for it, as it now stood, the Crown had stir had no object whatever in view,—he could have no rendered its hereditary revenues,—which revenues, object,—except that of seeing the country relieved he begged the House to bear in mind, were found from its present sufferings and distresses. If the to far exceed in amount the compensation paid by House should refuse to accede to what they were Parliament.—(Hear.)—So far, then, from wishing equally bound by policy and humanity to adopt, he to adopt the Hon. Member's proposition, and re would only say that they would work both discredit store the hereditary revenues of the Crown to it, to themselves and disappointment to their consti and reducing the civil list, Ministers consulted the tuents. public benefit by appropriating the former to the On the motion being put, public service, as it was by far the best for meeting The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER the public exigencies. If, indeed, the civil list ex said he rose to address the House under feelings of ceeded in value or amount the revenues of the considerable embarrassment, not only from the chili- Crown which were exchanged for it, there might culty of the task of following the Hon. Member for be some sense in the Hon. Member's proposal; but Aberdeen (Mr. Hume) through his various and as the reverse was the case, he was sure the House complex statements, but from a conviction of the would not, for a moment, follow the Hon. Member's almost impossibility of refixing the attention of an recommendation. He, for one, would always oppose audience so long pre-occupied by the Hon. Member. and protest against such a proposition, and had no The Hon. Member had added to his difficulties by doubt of being supported by the House. But the re not adopting a new line of proceeding from that commendation was in keeping with the torte of scorn usually followed by him : that is, by not refraining and contempt in which the Crown was invariably from his usual minute investigation of the de- spoken of by the Hon. Member., If he objected tails of the various items of the revenue and ex- to the principle of mentioning the name of a per penditure of the country,—items, a due discussion sonage - which should never be heard in the debates of which would require each a separate evening, and of that House, how much more should he protest as much time and attention as the House could be- against the terms iu which the allusion had been stow without a total neglect of its other duties. made by the Hon. Member. He would not take Nor was the variety of the Hon. Member's statements it upon him to question the Hon. Member's predi their only objectionable feature :—the length of lections in the abstract for particular forms of go time embraced by the Hon. Member's inquiry added vernment, nor his right to assert those predilec to the task of replying to them—a period extending tions on fitting occasions ; but he' would most em from 1792 to the present year. The Hon. Member phatically protest against monarchy being spoken of had thought proper to lay to his account all the in a British House of Commons only in terms of charges which he could bring forward, not only scorn and contempt. The Hon. Member might ex against himself, since his accession to the Chan- patiate as long as he pleased of the blessings which cellorship of the Exchequer, but, what was hardly flowed to America from her republican institutions, fair, against his immediate predecessors in office. He and on the advantages or disadvantages which this did not shrink from the responsibility attached to or that country might derive from a democracy or official station, nor from the task of vindicating those an aristocracy ; but he was sure he would fail i n his to had preceded him, for he knew them too well inducing a British d o use of Commons t o a d o pt his tO doubt of the injustice of the Hon. Member's sentiments respecting our free Monarchy.—(Hear, censures; he knew them to be men of ability and hear.) —Connected with that part of the Hon. honour, who had invariably received the cordial Member's arguments, were his declamation against support of Parliament. It would be unfair to ex- the amount of the Pension Li st . Th ere , sa id t h e pest, however, that he should be then prepared:to Hon. Member, is 770,000/, of the public money follow the Hon. Member through his various state- annually expended in order to enable Ministers tc command majorities by bribes and pensions to their supporters : reduce, therefore, the amount, and by so farlessen the official means of corruption.—(Hear, hear.)—But the Hon. Member seemed to forget that 446,0001. of this item was embodied in the con solidated fund—not at the will of corrupt Ministers, but by Parliament—(Hear)—as the reward of the highest naval, military, and judicial services that were ever entitled to the gratitude of the country. —(Hear, hear, hear.)—Therefore, if the itein were to be reduced, Parliament, in its full legislative capacity, and not a corrupt Minister, must effect the reduction. The Honourable Member seemed to Wave little reliance on the statement which his Hon. Friend the Member for Derry (Mr. G. Daw son) made a few evenings ago, of the disposition of the present Government to reduce the public expen eitine to the lowest point compatible with the pub lic welfare. But how were the Hon. Member's doubts supported by facts ? A vacancy occurred in the Board of Taxes a short time since; the Noble Duke at the head of the Government was applied to to fill it up. What was done? Why the Noble Duke ordered the office to be abolished, it being suggested that the number of commissioners might be lessened without detriment to the public service.—(Hear, hear.) Another vacancy occurred in the Board of Stamps. What was done in that instance ? The very same thing—the office was a bolished.—(Hear, hear.) In the Board of Ex cise, in the same way, the number of Commissioners had been reduced two in thirteen, and it wee ire tended to effect a similar reduction in the Board of Customs as soon as the experiment could be practi cable.—(Hear, hear.) This showed the disposition of Ministers to effect every possible reduction that the efficiency of the pulilic establishments of the country could permit. But perhaps the Hon. Mem ber might ask, are these all the reductions you mean to attempt ? He answered him no, though he would not then anticipate the detail of those in tended. Did not these facts show that there did not exist the shadow of a shade for the Hon. Gen tleman's imputation against the economical spirit of the present Government? The Honourable Member had called the attention of the House to the works in Canada, with a view to creating an impression of the improvident wastelelness of Ministers. He told the House that the exruses of those works amounted to two millions last year. What, however, was the fact? The House voted, as the Hon. Member ought to have known, but 500,0001. last year for those works.—(Hear.) — How, then, did the Hon. Member make up his two millions ? Simply by putting in one item of .500,000/. voted by that House, with the cost of works which had been postponed for the present, and of others which had been postponed altogether; and this he did for the purpose of swelting hie charge of ministerial extravagance. Then, with respect to the taxes, the Hon. Member's statements were equally open to animadversion. The Hon. Member correctly stated that the debt now amounted to 800,000,0001. but argued that if the 800,000,0001. of taxes raised within the last fifteen years had been properly expended, the debt would now be extiee guished.—(" No, no.")—He understood the Hon. Member so ; for if such were not his meaning, what could be his object in contrasting the possible effects of a certain course of economy with the ac tual condition of the public expenditure? Then the Hon. Member stated that the population had advanced in. a larger ratio than the consumption ; owing, he said, to the increased amount of taxes having diminished the command of the large mass of consumers over the necessaries of life. But how did the Hon. Member prove his assertion ? By se lecting one year in the height of the war, when the ne cessarily isolated condition of the country, so far as foreign imports were concerned, tended to increase the consumption of domestic commodities, and comparing that with the estimate of a year of peace, when the home market was open to the world.—(Hear.) — To prove his statement, the Hon. Member should have compared the ratio of consumption and popu lation before the war with that now existing. If, for example, he had selected the article of tobacco, he would have found that the consumption amounted to but 9,500,0001b5. in the year 1791; while it amounted to 15,000,0001b5. last year, showing a greater ratio of increase of consumption than that of population could account for. In conclusion, the Right Hon. Gentleman begged Hon. Members to consider whether the Hon. Member's motion would tend to the general advantage if forthwith acted upon. Those that thought so would of course vote for it; while those who were inclined to await the detailed statements of Ministers of the reductions intended to be made in the several branches of the public service, would vote against it, and for the or der of the day. He could not consent to it— though he was ready to acknowledge that the llouse would, after a discussion of the several details of the subject, be better able to adopt his suggestion — without consenting to abandon the station to which he was raised by the favour of his Sovereign, and thereby implying an admission of his inability 'to preside over the financial arrangements of the coun try,—(Hear, hear.) Mr. MABERL Y would vote for his Honoureble Friend's motion, though he did not subscribe to all his statements and opinions. The objection of the Right Hon. Gentleman appeared to him most extra ordinary; for what did it amount to, but that be cause he did not admit:the correctness of one or two points, he therefore would reject the rest ?—(Hear.) —The Right Hon. Gent. declined going into detail and yet on what occasion was detail more applicable ? It was straage to see the inconsistencietrinto which Ministers were led by this present mode of proceed ing. They first admitted the necessity of minute investigation, and granted the Finance Committee.; but when that Committee began to do some good by its detailed inquiries, Ministers said they would not consent. to its renewal on the ground that the points to which those inquiries were directed might be sufficiently discussed by the House at large. Well, his Hon. Friend brings those points before the House, and then Ministers tell him, " they will not enter, into detail," for that is not the proper season.— (Hear, hear.)—And thus the errors in the present system would be perpetuated till the public embar rassment would call for another Finance Committee. It was high time that something should be done— (Hear) —and that a Finance Committee should direct its minutest inquiries into all the branches of the public expenditure. The fallacy of borrowing with one hand to pay with the other a surplus fund 6 was first demonstrated to Ministers by the Finance Committee ; and many other fallacies connected with the dead weight system would, he was save, by this time also have been made manifest to them if the Committee had continued its labours. The motion of his Hon. Friend merely stated, that a large redaction in our taxation was rendered highly ex pedient by the state of the country. The motion should be rather supported by the House, as not one word had been said in the King's Speech of the in tention of Ministers to propose any reduction in taxes. This House was bound to pledge itself to the people to reduce the taxation of the country, and that was all that the present motion effected. It left to the House to decide in what particular branch the re duction ought to be made, and what should be its amount. But if the proposition brought forward by his Hon. Friend (Mr. Hume) was to be treated in the manner it had by the Right Hon. the Chan cellor of the Exchequer, his Hon. Friend must conic with a motion for specific reductions; and if the House should not agree to the motion now before it, he (Mr. Maberly) should think it his duty to propose the reduction of some tax which he consi dered most oppressive to the people. There were many branches of the public expenditure in which lie conceived reduction might safely be made, particu larly in the civil, military, and miscellaneous esti mates. It was indeed surprising, that while the value of every thing -IVas depreciating,—while the rent of land had fallen as 50 per cent., — that this expenditure 'stood. iligher than it did in 1817. He would . not enter into any details, because his statements might liedenledloy'lOthers, and thus • a controversy comnieneeoibielivOuld be in no way rcely 817, duce hese e ex- flt of Iling • ►hick t ad s the made they nts of debt 1 cal )f the 1g - the •, and would or if 01. or very le net to the year. lortion