The Sun. — London, England, 1833-02-13 00:00:00

on the number of souls in their respective dioceses ; but must in a great measure depend on the space over which their visitations and other duties have to be performed. It had been contended that 22 Bishops were more than adequate to these duties. Now, Sir, I admit that twenty-two is a number more than necessary.—(Loud cheers.) It is then for us to examine how many may be reduced, after the decease ofthe present holders of sees, so that the duties of the Established Church may be performed fully and effi ciently ; and, with the best consideration that could be brought to the subject, we think that the number may he fairly reduced by ten Bishops.—(Loud and continued cheers re-echoed by Mr. O'Connell.) These bishoprics are : Dromore, Ferns, Raphoe, Killaloe, Clonfert, Elphin, Cork, Kildare, Ossory, and Waterford. Of these the latter is at present vacant, and will remain so.—(Cheers.) The duties of these Sees will be performed by their being annexed to others—for instance, Kildare to Dublin, and Waterford to Cashel, and the Archbishopric of Tuam will be reduced to a Bishop's See. Sir, I have stated to the House that the Church revenues of Ireland amount at present to 130,0001. and 60,000/. will be deducted from those when the plan comes into operation which we now propose.—(Hear, hear, hear.) I believe 1 have now stated all the sums which will fall under the cognisance of the Commissioners ; but Sir, there is another thing to be considered. Gentlemen who may feel the strongest upon the injustice and the want even of power of Parliament to interfere with the revenues of the Church, will agree with this, that if, by any Act of the Legislature, a new value is given to any property of the Church, the pro duce of that new value does not belong to the Church, because it is an acquisition without any Act of the Legislature, and whatever belongs to that new value may tie appropriated immediately to the use of the State.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) It is well known that the Bishops have no right to grant longer leases than for twenty-one years. In practice, I believe, those leases are almost annually renewed, and a fine, together with the rent, may be said to form the in come of the Bishop. As I understand it, the value of a Bishop's lease, in Ireland, is twelve and a half years' pur chase. The tenants are under this disadvantage, that, though the leases are renewed every year, still it is in the power of the Bishops, and has been done, that a young Bishop may run his life against his tenants, and thereby deprive persons of property which they may have been in possession of during the whole of their lives, and be altogether without remedy.—(Hear, hear, hear.) They are also placed in this situation, that if the land is much improved they are liable to an increased fine, thereby themselves losing the benefit of the improve ment. Sir, it is proposed not in the least to diminish the incomes of the Bishops in this way, but to enable any tenant who thinks it right to demand it upon certain terms which I will state immediately, that be shall have a perpetuity in the land which he now rents of the Bishop, at a fixed corn reut.—(Hear, hear.) Now, upon inquiry, we find that upon those terms the value of such a lease, —a perpetual lease at a fixed corn rent, would be twenty years' purchase instead of twelve and a half—(Hear) — but he must pay to acquire this privilege 71 per cent. It is proposed that the tenure of those of the tenants of the Bishop who choose to claim it, should be made per petual upon a tender of six years' pm ehase.—(Hear, hear.) This, it will be seen, will be a great benefit to those per sons, as it will give them a permanent advantage in any improvements which they may make on the land, and it provides against every claim which the Bishop might make to their disadvantage. The Bishops will still continue to receive the same rent as at present, but they will not have the power they at present possess of increasing their claims. This can only be done by an Act of Parlia ment; and therefore it will be necessary to make an Act increasing the provisions of the Act which gives the Bishops the present power of making leases. To those gentlemen who object to epplyine the Church property to other pur poses, I will merely say that I expect their concurrence in favour of this proposition, that whatever fund may be raised by these purchases, will be at the disposal of Parliament.—( Hear, hear.) I cannot at the present moment tell what may be the amount of those pur chases in the first instance. We know what may be the amount if the whole be purchased, for it is stated that 500,000/. is the value to the tenant, and 10,0001. only to the Bishops.—(Hear, hear.) Whatever may be the amount, it is evident' that the mea sure will be of great advantage to the tenants. Sir, I have now stated the whole of the plan of his Ma jesTy's Ministers. I do not mean to say that this is the only measure that is required with respect to the Church , of Ireland. I do not mean to say that there are not other measures with respect to non-residence, with respect to pluralities—(Hear)—and for the purpose of in ducing the landlords to take on themselves the payment of tithes. All these measures must be brought under the consideration of the House ; they will necessarily he so during the present Session of Parliament; but this is the measure which I now bring forward with respect to the temporalities of the Church. Sir, I hope and trust Ole is a plan which will give general satisfaction.--(Cheers). That cheer assures me of it. I will not detain the House ciny longer.—(Hear, hear.) The measure I have pro peeed provides for not continuing the scandal of persons bolding benefices and receiving the revenues of a living where 40 dory is performed : and it provides to as great an extent as is practicable or advisable for the reduction of true number of the Jrish hierarchy. I would also beg to observe, th it it does not lay down any abstract principle. Indeed it is not necessary to do so for any practical per pose. It is not necessary now to decide whether Parlia ment has or has not a right to interfere with Church pro perty. As I bare already observed, all wbo think that there ought to be a Ceurch Establishment at all, must agree that the Church has the first &aim to be consi dered. But when a practical plan like this is brought forward, it is quite unnecessary to call for a de termination on any abstract principle; or to decide whether or not Parliament has any right to interfere with the property of the Church. The result of such a call would be only delay and obstruction. The plan which I have now detailed to the House is what his Majesty's Ministers feel themselves justified in proposing at present ; without meaning to preclude Parliament from considering ate future disposal of Church property to other purposes elutes those of the Church. Whenever the purposes of the Church eve fully satisfied, Parliament may, if it think fir, proceed to the consideration of the manner in which the surplus ought to be applied. The question will be per fectly open. All we have in view on the present occa sion is to submit a practical proposition for a practical amendment of the law. I will not detain the House any longer, but will at once move for leave to bring in a Bill to alter and amend the law relating to the Temporalities of the Church of Ireland.—(The Noble Lord sat down amidst deafening cheers.) Mr. O'CONNELL—I will not detain the House many minutes, but I cannot refrain from expressing the °Teat satisfaction and delig ht which I have this evening experienced.—(Loud and continued cheering.) If I feel it my duty to oppose strongly measures, which, I think, perhaps erroneously, injurious to my country, I am as ready to give all the little and insignificant support I am able, to measures which I think for her welfare. — (Cheers.) To this plan of the Noble Lord I can see no objection, and its principle carries the seeds of future amelioration. (Hear.) I would only implore the Noble Lord to believe that there exists no other class in Ireland which wishes to be placed in the situation of the Established Church, so that he may put out of his calculations entirely the claims of any such class. If I may speak on behalf of those who concur with me in religious belief they do not compose that class, and no man would more decidedly oppose such an object, nor ever will, than myself. The Noble Lord stated the true principle on:which office should be conferred. in Ireland, wh e si he stated that merit ought to be the rule by which it should he conferred, and that the Catholic should obtain no more, advantage over the Protestant than the Protestant should over the Catholic. With regard to the Subletting Act of last year, it had - done even more good than the Noble Lord was aware of, and what defects are in it, can be discussedehereafter. The plan proposed by the Noble Lord jilt eventually raise; a sufficient revenue from the land. of the Established Chprcla to support it in a pro Per manner, for it will Improve the tenure of Church property in that country now so 14d, The Church lands may always be known by the wretched:. ness of the inhabitants. Another thing that makes me rejoice in the plan is, that all corporate property may hereafter be brought within its principle.—(Hear.) I have thought it my duty to confess my sentiments thus far upon the subject. I am obliged to the House for the kind manner in which they have beard me, and although the measure does not go so far as I could wish, yet, as it will establish a most invaluable principle And plan on this subject, and as it will give the power to Parliament hereafter to allocate the funds to other purposes, I give it my most hearty support. I cannot avoid thanking the Noble Lord for that measure, which gives -the, entire abolition of the vestry cess. It is a measure, Sir, that will take away a great deal of irritation and vexation in Ireland ; and con• fident I am that the abolition of no cess win give such- general satisfaction to Ireland as that. I again, Sir, return my grateful thanks to the Noble Lord for measures calculated to produce tranquillity in Ireland; and whatever humble support in the adoption of those meaiures I can give him, will be given most heartily.—(The Hon. Member sat down amidst loud cheers.) Sir ROBERT INOLIS rose, but, ill cousequence of the noise in the House, occasioned by a great number of Members leaving, he was very imperfectly heard. He would not follow the Hon. and Learned Gentleman through all his topics of praise to the measure proposed by the Noble Lord opposite ; nor would he impute to him anything inconsistent with the due discharge of his duty to that House ; but he drew from the support which the Hon. and Learned Member had given to the Noble Lord, a new argument against the admission of those gentlemen who, by the King's writ, were assembled there to discuss the subject of the Established Church. He would not, after the discussion upon that subject lest night, say any thing farther respecting persons of a different religion. If the Notate Lord (Althorp) as the Minister of the King, who was the head of the Church, could stand in that House and recommend I such measures as be had this night disclosed, he (Sir R. Inglis) could only say that those measures were, in his opinion, inconsistent with the principles upon which the Church of England was founded.—(Hear, bear.) He would bring again to the attention of the Noble Lord opposite, and to the House, the oath taken by Members at that table.—(Much laughter.) Gentlemen might laugh, but that would not deter him from doing so. It would be seen by the oath, that gentlemen pledged themselves to preserve to the Bishops and Clergy, all such rights and privileges as by law should appertain unto them.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He could understand this repeated laughter, if this oath was to be considered as good for nothing ; but he could not understand how any one, reading the oath as he had put it, could conceive that he would discharge his duty and acquit his conscience, by giving his sanction to an Act which at once annihilated one half of the Bishops of Ireland.—(Loud and continued laughter.) How could that be said to preserve to the Bishops and clergy their rights and privileges as by law established? How it was to be reconciled to one's con science he knew not. He considered it decidedly contrary to the oath. He considered it equally contrary to the obligation under which Honourable Members entered that House, when they came there directed to consult what was for the good of the Church.—( Hear. ) He would ask if it were no violation, that an excision should be made of ten Bishops: if not, where would such ' a violation commence, at twelve,- or fourteen, or any greater number ? It had been upheld; that the destruction of a single see would be a violation of the solemn Union between the two countries, and he could not himself understand, if the Noble Lord felt at liberty to do away with one half, how he would go about to preserve the remainder. He would again contend that it was as much a violation to destroy half as the whole, and this was his preliminary objection to the measure of the Noble Lord. Surprised as he (Sir Robert Inglis) had been by the measure of Reform, introduced by the Noble Lord, the Pay master of the Forces, still more was he astonished by the extent of the measure now introduced to the House, and he be lieved that the Honourable Member for Dublin, after having for three or four days assailed Ministers 'with his speeches, could not have expected anything, to excite his gratification equal to the propositions of the Noble Lord. It was a pandering to popular opinion ; he would say it was a pandering to the bad passions of those out of doors, when a measure was proposed in direct opposition to the Coronation Oath—to the Act of Union—anal the oaths of Members of Parliament. He could not see how the friends of the people could propose a clerical property tax. The Noble Lord proposed to do away with Church rates. This would only be putting money into the landlords' pockets. while it cut off from the Church one of its legitimate sources of support. The time, too, when this measure was introduced was most improper. At no period since the Reformation had there ever existed lass occasion for such a sweeping measure. At no time since the reign of Henry VIII., had men of more talent, and piety, and efficiency be longed to that Church. The mischief, the wickedness, and injustice of this measure were obvious. The Act of the Union, and that for the relief of the Roman Catholics were contravened by this absurd, sweeping, destructive, and most uncalled for measure. In his opinion, by sacrificing the Church of Ireland, Mini sters were only preserving a precarious existence for themselves. Such a measure would tend to the injury of all civil property, and the destruction of the Church itself. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT then rose. He thought that, so far from the measure tending to any of the consequences anticipated by the Honourable Ba ronet—instead of tending to bring the property of the Church to destruction, it would strengthen all the ties of civilization in Ireland, and would increase the value of her property.—(Cheers.) He was extremely glad that the House and the country had escaped from those frightful shadows which had mistakenly arisen in the mind of the Hon. Member for Dublin.—(Cheers.) He trusted that the sentiments uttered that day by the Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin wool , ' be echoed through the House and the country. The Hon. Member for Dublin knew full well bow kindly he felt towards him; anal that no man—no not even himself— had a stronger feeling of affection and regard fin• Ireland. He hoped anal trusted the happiest consequences would re • suit to that country from the proposed measure.—(Cheers) It was but just and fair to the Administration, which the Honourable Member for Dublin had himself given the meed of his praise to, to say that they had nobly redeemed their pledge, and merited the confidence which had been reposed in them.—(Cheers.) It would he an earnest of their good intentions, and of what they would do; it would bind Ireland to this country by bonds stronger than any other ; and would promote those good and con. fiding feelings, from which he augured the happiest re sults.—(Cheers.) He believed that this measure would do away with the necessity of putting into practice those other measures to which objections might be felt, and that it was at the same time an earnest that if those mea sures were granted, and the Ministers claimed from the Parliament the grant of extraordinary powers, those Powers would net be abused. This plan was deserv ing of support for another reason—for the confidence with which it would inspire the people of Ireland, that no measures of unnecessary severity or force would be resorted to. —( Hear, hear.) It would, besides, convince every one that if measures of force were required, and extraor dinary power were required, the Ministers, whom he dial think entitled to the confidence of the country—( Hear, hew, hear) —might be intrusted with them. They stood in a different situation from that in which any other Mi nisters had been placed—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition) —for there was now a real responsibility of Ministers.— (Hear, hear.) This was no longer a party and a packed House of Parliament, that was at the command of the Minister, who might come down and ask for any powers, get them when he pleased, use or abuse them at his will, and be certain of indemnity after all was over. This was a Parliament that would exercise a controlling power—wot:ld grant only what was necessary, would watch most strictly the execution of the powers it had confided, and would take care that in all that was done the attainment of that one object was kept in view, without which all else would be fruitless— peace.--( Hear, hear.) This Parliament would only con sent to grant extraordinary powers to do that which the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, as well as any nthel Member, must wish to see done—to repress vio lence, to punish violations of the law, to put a stop to atrocious crimes, by the commission of which the law had become no longer the shield of the innocent, but the scree❑ of the gualty.—( Hear, hear.) All must desire to see the system of intimidation got tid of, and honest men obeying the law without fear and without danger. He repeated, that he believed this meastlre would tend mere than any other to do away with the necessity of measures of force and coercion. He had the strongest hopes that the different parts of the United Kingdom would by the effects of this measure become really united. This w ae, in every respect, a measure which entitled the Ministry to the confidence of the people. It showed that the Administration had deter mined to correct the evils that had so long been pointed out; and, above all, it gained for them credit for this great merit, that the measure was so well concocted, and so wisely framed as a practical measure, that it met with the approbation and unanimous support of those most likely to know the grievances it was intended to correct. It was a measure on which they must have deeply re flected, and for which the country at large would become attached to them, and would place confidence in them. At the *une time he must say, that those persons who were adwopates of the Established Church, and who had given their acr i nieseence to the measure, would not lose credit with the public foe thgt acquiescence, but would be the more admired, as it would shim that they were really anxious to make those just cone ssions that the spirit at the times required. The details of this meesure would be discussed when the measure itself came before the House. lie believed that, in igtroducing this measure, the Ministers were doing more than any one thing could do to preserve that Union which, in his 'opinion, was ne cessary to the safety, the prosperity, and the grandeur of the empire. —(Hear.) Mr. GOULBURN said he felt under considerable em barrassment in rising to make a few observatians on the outlines of the plan now presented to the House. He re joiced that the debates of this House were to be conducted in a spirit of conciliation ; but the lion. Baronet cotikl not expect that he, or any other man of independent mind, could give up principles that were as dear to him as hie life.—(Hear, hear.) He had been a Member of the Com mittee on the subject of tithes.:—the report on which, and the course the examination had taken, had prefigured to him the views of the Government with regard to the Church of Ireland. Ott that occasion he had made his sentiments known ; but, making allowance for circum stances, he had not made any objections to the report, but on a subsequent occasion he had expressed his sentiments on the matter. To those sentiments he now adhered. He ' did not object to that distribution which would insure an equal remuneration to resident clergymen—he did not ob ject to the more general diffusion of the revenues of the Church, nor to the more general provision for Protestant ministers throughout the country. Having concurred with some part of the report, and on the grounds he had stated, he was much disappointed by the motion that had now been made. If he felt it to be his duty in the diffe rent stages of the measure to canvass its necessity, or to scrutinize its details in a certain spirit of hostility, he should have no other motive but a desire for the welfare of the country. Of this he was convinced, the Church must ultimately be one of the best means of the salvation of the country. He regretted, therefore, most deeply, that the influence of th e Chur c h s hould be diminished. The first principle of the measure was the destruction of more than one half of the power of the Church. Il e could understand why the Noble Lord should think such and such incomes too large ; but why should he wish to withdraw from the Church their influence and power? On what principle was it that the Noble Lord found that the area of Ireland was insufficient for twenty-two . Bishops, or that that number was only required Eng laud ? There was not a man who would not think that it would be an advantage to divide the area of th e Bishoptics in England— ( Hear, hear, from both sides)..... and so exercise a real effect and constant control over the people. In the early ages of the Church there bad been always a great number of small Bishoprics, because it was always found that their duties were always better performed when they had to superintend only a small space, and that was the more necessary when they were sur rounded by people of different persuasions. Did the Noble Lord find from the Roman Catholics themselves any au thority for such a principle? Did they think that ten Bishops were sufficient for the area of Ireland ? They had a number of Bishops equal in number to ours, so that it was evident they did not agree with the principle of the Noble Lord. There was another objection to the mei. sure. Five out of the ten Bishops were taken by the Noble Lord from the Protestant p rot of Ireland—from that part where, even on his own principle, they ought to remain, and the people not allowed to be destitute of spi ritual control. He objected to the measure with regard to the religious wants of the country. The Noble Lord had said, that if there was any living in which during three years there had been no duty performed, such living should be placed at the disposal of a certain number of Lay Commissioners, who should determine whether any other person should be appointed to it. Was there ever any proposition so monstrous ? Had the Noble Lord forgotten that residence and death had been for some time almost synonymous terms ?—(Hear, hear.) And surely, under such circumstances, the most conscientious men might be excused for non-residence.—( Hear, hear.) Would the Noble Lord say that he would on that account declare that the voice of the English Church should not be heard in Ireland? Would he for such a reason permit any part of the country to forego for ever the benefit of an establish ment? In what he had said, he was actuated by no poli tical feeling whatever. The Noble Lord had stated that this measure involved no question of principle. But what dii the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin say to it? He did not seem to agree with that observation, for he spoke of Ecclesiastical Corporations, and the House must look to see the principle carried into other corporations. This was a measure of conciliation. Could be forget what had occurred with regard to former measures of concilia tion ? If he argued from past times—though he hoped that such emergencies would not again occur—yet it was possible that occasions might arise when the vigour of Par liament must again interpose for the protection of life and property; and if on such occasions the Government thought that it was necessary to resort to conciliation again, who was to anticipate what might then occur? Such occasions might happen at a moment when ten Bishoprics would create as much odium as twenty-two did now; and when small incomes paid to the clergy might be as much disliked as high incomes were at present. If they pursued that system of legislation, he did not know whether the period was riot at heed when the Protestant ' religion itself might not be sacrificed to such a principle. These were important points, and deserved the serious consideration of the House. He begged leave now to enter his most serious protest against a measure which he considered as most important as it related to civil society in Ireland, and to the state of the Church in that country, and to the interests of the Church and its property in this. Mr. BARRON thought that certain Irish Members had better be excluded altogether from the House, than in sulted as they had been. Such observations were most thoughtless, to say the least of them, and he thcught that they should not have been made as they had been by the Hon. Gentleman who had introduced this discussion, and that they were most indelicate when uttered by others. He begged to tell those gentlemen, that he and those who thought with him were incapable of a breach of their oath, and he hoped there would be no repetition of imputations of that kind. He thought he had as good a right as any other man to legislate upon Church property. As an Irishman, not as a Sectarian, he said that he cinisi dered the Church as one of the greatest grievances of Ireland. He never should think of meddling with mat ters of doctrine in the Church of England, and if such subjects came into discussion he might think himself called upon to withdraw, but the property of the Church was, in his. opinion, that of the State—(Hear, hear) — and the State had a right to make what arrangements it pleased with respect to that property.—(Hear, hear.) The State had taken the property of the Church from the Roman Catholics, and had given it to the Protestant Esta blishment. The property was given by the State to the dominant religion of the State, and the State had both the right and the power thus to dispose of it.—(Hear, hear.) It was thus disposed of by the King, Lords, and Commons, who did what they did in a legal and constitu tional manner.---(Hear, hear.) In his opinion, this measure would strengthen the Protestant Establishment more than any other. If such an act had not shortly been done, he believed that there would speedily have been no Establishment in Ireland. The Government felt they must give way, and they had done it wisely, and mode rately, and temperately; and that wisdom and modera tion and temperance would he of use to the Church; and if the Ministry had not so acted, Church property would have been trampled under foot by the unanimous voice of the people of Ireland.—(A laugh.) To show the feelings of the people of Ireland, he would only mention that on one occasion tithe was demanded, and the persons from whom it was claimed thought they could resist it 1-gaily. They went round to raise a subscription, and asked him among others to subscribe. He told them that the amount was small, and that the expense of resisting it would be greater than the advantage they would gain, should they succeed ; but such was their determination, that they answered they would resist, if it cost them double In answer to the Right Honourable Gentleman, he only wished to observe, that in England the num ber of Bishops and the other parts of the Church Establishment were calculated, not by the surface of the country, but by the number of souls. Applying that rate to Ireland, the plan of the Noble Lord was amply justified. It seemed to him that the Noble Lord (Altkorp) had conferred a great boon on the Roman Catholics, by doing away with the Church Cess, and he hoped that the measure would he unanimously supported. He was con vinced that the Bill would allay bad passions, and keep down the excitement existing in Ireland, and which, ac cording to his lett-rs to-day, had been much increased by the nature of the King's speech.—(hear.) Lord EBRINGTON, from the interest he had always taken in this subject, was anxious to make a few observa tions, more especially after the speeches delivered by the two Members for the Universities of Ox'ord and Cam bridge (Sir R. Inglis and Mr. Goulhurn). He assured them, as far as he was acquainted with the dispositions of Ministers, there was no intention to overthrow the Church Establishment of Ireland, and expressed his surprise that the Hon. Baronet had departed a little from the habitual mildness of his nature, when he indulged in such terms of vitueeration against the plan of the Noble Lord. lie (Lord E.) would not retort upon him, or upon the very few who thought with him in the same strain ; but what he (Sir R. Inglis) called the integrity of the Church, be (Lord Ebrington) considered its spots, stains, and abuses, which not only made it an object of dislike among the Catholics, but of disgust among the Protestants. He spoke as a member of the Church of England--a member not in different to thou interests of religion, and yielding to none, as tar as his humble efforts would go, in a desire to maintain that establishment in its purity and entirety. But he spokes at the same time, with a strong conviction that nothing had been more injurious to the security of the establishment in this country—nothing more likely to expose it to fresh danger, and, if anything could do it, absolutely to over throw it than the attempt to bind up together the sepa rate churches of England and Ireland.—(Cheers.) He hailed the measure of the Noble Lord with cordial satis faction, which, while it provided abundantly for the re ligious instruction of the Protestants, at the same time re • moved a great portion of abuses which had brought the Church of Ireland into odium and contempt. The Hon. Member for Oxford had complained that no provision was made by the Nohle Lord for the expensive force of Pro testantism in Ireland ; but he (Lord E.) thought that the Hon. Baronet was mistaken upon the point, for a power was reserved for renewing and endowing churches, should the necessity arise. To his (Lord E.'s) knowledge, there were parishes in Ireland without churches, glebe-houses, or Protestant population ; in such cases the example of a Protestant Minister, however unexceptionable and useful in his private character, deriving an income for the per formance of no clerical duties, was highly detrimental, and nothing less than a scandal upon the Establishment. But it was contended that the proposed reduction of the revenues of the Church was calculated to check the growth of Protestantism in Ireland. The religion of the world did not show that its growth was in proportion to its revenues, and the history of Ireland showed directly the converse; for, so far from Protestantism having increased, it had rather di minished in proportion to theexteesion of the population. The proposed measure, by reconciling the feelings of the people in general, he was satisfied would di more and more, not merely to insure the safety of the Church of Ireland, but to promote the growth of Protestantism. The Hon. Baronet, Member for Westminster, had expressed a hope that the introduction of this Bill would render coer cive measures in Ireland unnecessary.—(Hear.) He (Lord E.) wished that he could partake in so sanguine a view of the subject ; but he hoped and believed, that the miscreants against whom coercive measures would be directed, were as unconnected with party feelings in the House, as with the benefits to be derived from the perma nent and satisfactory settlement of the Church of Ireland. He was as unwilling as any ni in to grant extraordinary powers, nor would he concede them until a case of neces sity was made out ; but lie must say, that the manner in its pledge the present Government had thus redeemed pledge of conciliation, kindness, and redress of grievances, was a happy earnest of the future; it afforded security, coupling it with the known reputation of the Members of the Cabinet; with the character of the present Viceroy, the Marquis of Anglesea, and he must add, with the character of his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Stanley) to whom he was more especially anxious to pay this tribute of respect and good-will, after the manner in which he had been attacked—(Cheers)—that the powers, if granted by Parliament, would not be abused. Nay, more, he was convinced, that Ministers would themselves be un willing to ask or to receive them, unless a clear case were made out that it was impossible to do without them. Mr. RUTHVEN apprehended the measure of the Noble Lord would not by any means have the effect anticipated ors the other side of the House. As to the number of Bishops, he was of opinion that four would be adequate to the discharge of the whole duty to devolve upon the twelve, and the people of Ireland would certainly be much better satisfied with the four than with the twelve. The best part of the intended Bill was unquestionably the abolition of Church rates, and for this he gave the Noble Lord and his colleagues all the credit they deserved. Church lands and tithes were public property, and as public property might be disposed of, and dealt with by Parliament, it was his conviction that no religious establishment, in point of revenues or encouragement, ought to have the advantage over another, and least of all ought any mein • bees of any establishment to be paid so liberally as to en able them to live in luxury, and to lead them away from the active discharge of their clerical duties. He con sidered the chief nature of the present measure merely this : that it was the preface and prelude to a more com plete Reform of the Church of Ireland. As a preface and prelude it might do some good ; but the poople of Ireland would not consider it final, and would not be satisfied without more. He was aware that Lis!) subjects were distasteful in the House, and he should, therefore, do no more at present than propose the following amendment That it is expedient to inquire whether the present Church Establishment of Ireland be not more than commensurate to the services to be performed, inasmuch as the state of the Church property in Ireland appears to require revision and modification, and that a reduction of the Church Establishment has become necessary and expedient, so as to facilitate the ultimate appropriation of its revenues to the uses of their original objects, viz.—the maintenance of the clergy, the building and due support of churches and places of public worship, as well as the relief of the poor; but that under existing circumstances the present incumbents of parishes in Ireland are entitled to protection in the arrangement of Church property, the future regulations of which should be made upon a basis calculated to afford a proper and suitable provision for the ministry of the several congregations in the respective parishes in Ireland ; and also to supply means of materially relieving the poor." Mr. WARRE did not rise to enter into the merits of the extraordinary amendment proposed by the Hon. Mem ber for Dublin, and which seemed calculated to accomplish no other purpose than to thwart the first great salutary measure of reform and improvement in Ireland.— (Cheers.) From the Member fur Oxford (Sir R. Inglis) lie was prepared to expect opposition, but he was not pre pared to hear him (and in his mature judgment the Hon. Baronet would scarcely be disposed to renew his efforts in this respect) revive the exploded notion that it would he a violation of the Coronation Oath for the King to give hie assent to such a measure as the present, if it were brought forward by the recognised advisers of the Crown, and adopted by both Houses of Parliament. To carry this argument to its full extent would be to make the Corona tioa Oath operate as a veto upon every Bill relating to the regulation of the Church, even its such a trifling matter as the compulsory augmentation of a curate's salary. If such were the opinion of the Hon. Baronet, it was not the opinion of some of the most distineuished and venerable inembsrs of the Church, and he (Mr. Warre) begged par ticularly to refer the House to the excellent (and not less excellent because it was short, occupying only 42 pages) pamphlet of Archdeacon Glover, in which he contended that a total abolition of the tithe system in Ireland was ne cessary ; and contended that reform, under the sanction of Parliament, must begin at the head of the establish. ment, and thoroughly sift the revenues of the hierarchy. The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, the Member for Cambridge University, had, in the whole of the observa tions which lie had thought it fitting to address to the House, declared —or, at least, pretty plainly intimated— that he should oppose himself to any plan of Church Re form, of any description whatever. That Right Hon. Gentleman had taken his stand upon that desperate ground, declaring that lie would consent to nothing in the shape of alteration ; and certainly nothing else could be expected from him, when the whole t.-nor of his Parlia mentary and Ministerial life was considered. It was in perfect accordance with the whole tenor of his public lite, and with the principles which he at all times pro fessed, that lie should oppose himself to vesting in a Com mission the right of suspending a clergyman who might be guilty of a total neglect of duty for the space of three years. A Right Hon. Gentleman, like him, who could agree to nothing so reasonable as that proposition, could not be expected to give his consent to a proposition for re ducing the number of Bishops from twenty-two to twelve. If he (Mr. W.) differed from the Right Hon. Gentleman on the ground already stated, how much greater must his dissent be from the objection to the plan which rested it self upon the assumption, that, since there were twenty two Titular Catholic Bishops, there should, at the same time, and in the same place, he as many Protestant Bishops? Surely there was no one in that House, or out of doors, who would pay the slightest attention to an argument which proceeded upon such a total disregard of the rela tive prepositions of the flocks of the two classes of the clergy. Having thus britfly adverted to the sentiments which the House had heard from the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite, he should now bring his remarks to a close, by stating, that upon the general question, then fur the first time brought under their consideration, he should Le sorry not to pronounce an opinion. It was his decided conviction, that the measure now propounded to the House was one fraught with the means of imme diate benefit to the great body of the Irish population, and with general advantage to the empire at large. He rejoiced to see that his Majesty's Ministers had derived experience from the lessons of history—that they had come forward with measures of improvement at the proper time, and that they were prepared to give up a part, in order that they might save the whole—who were willing to make some sacrifice in order that they might promote the well being and the prosperity of all. Sir ROBERT PEEL—I must acknowledge that I do feel considerable doubt whether the House ought not to require that a proposition such as this—one so materially affecting religion—should he brought forward according to established usage, in a Commiteee of the whole House. I am sure there are no Members of any Parliamentary ex perience who will not readily agree with me, that it would have been much more in conformity with established usage if this proposition had been submitted, no: to the House itself, hut to a Committee of the whole House. It cannot but be well known to many whom I have the ho nour to address, that there is actually a standing order of the House against matters relating to religion being brought forward in the manner in which the proposition of the Noble Lord has been introduced. Perhaps it will be expected that I should discuss whether it is or is not a questi in of reli g ion ; but I co n f ess I am f u lly j us tifi e d i n taking for granted that it cannot be otherwise considered ; at the same time I am free to acknowledge that this is a question upon which every Member will form an opinion for himself ; but I trust that, in forming such an opinion, Hon. Members will bear in mind, that, when the 'lest and Corporation Acts were proposed to be repealed, the proposal was submitted to a Committee of the whole House ; and I hope it is also not for gotten, that when I proposed tie measure for the relief of the Catholi cs f ro m the disabilities under which they la boured, I submitted the views of his Majesty's Minis ters to a Committee of the whole House. Now surely , if it has been thought ueveriary in the case of a motion for doing away with civil disabilities to take the sense of a Committee of the whole House, I am sure every one will agree with me that it is not less necessary in the case of a proposition for abolishing ten of the twenty-two bishop rics of Ireland. I do really take the liberty to say, that the one has much more to do with the business of religion than the other, and that nothing could be less in confor mity with the usages of the House than to bring it for ward otherwise than in a Committee. If the intention be to abolish the standing order of which I have been speak ing, be it so; hut let that design be candidly avowed. I am sure the Noble Lord opposite has not adopted this course from any consideration arising out of the fact that the standing orders have not been agreed to in the present Session.—(No, no, from the Ministerial bench.) But whether the standing order I refer to he now in existence or not, I have no hesitation in expressing my full convic tion, that no reasonable person can urge any objection whatever to the proposition being made rather in the one form than in the other. I need scarcely observe to the House that this is a question of the very highest impor tance, and that much time indeed would he required fer enabling any one not possessing a large share of confidence in his own judgment to pronounce an opinion ; and in this case I may well say that the opportunity for consideration afforded us has been very short. In addition to the dif f iculty which I ex perience in attempting to form any opinion at all, I do acknowledge that there is much in the positions taken up by the Noble Lord which very greatly indispose my mind to take a favourable view of his proposition ; and I must be permitted to say, that my confidence in the proposed plan has not been increased by the manner in which it was received by the House. Ido freely confess, that the uni versal acclamations with which it was hailed, did by no means induce me to think that it was founded upon such principles as I should be inclined to recognise, or that it was likely to be attended with results from which I could anticipate advantage to the cause of religion or the well being of the State. Further, too, my want of confidence became increased by the apparent determination on the part of the House to take for granted, without examina tion and without ref •ction, that the measure must of necessity be fraught with the most extensive benefits to Ireland, the largt st advant ages to the empire generally, and calculated to afford the best security and furnish the most effectual means of consolidating the stability of the Protestant religion. I repeat, that all these circumstances remove from my mind any hope that such a measure can be attended with the anticipated results; but I am willing to give it my most anxious consideration, and I the more earnestly require time for that purpose, when I recollect that this proposition involves the most important conside rations connected with the Act of Union, and when I remember, at the same time, its bearing upon the Pro testant religion and ti e most vital interests of morality; I, therefore, say, that a man must hive a large share of con fidence in his own judgdment who is prepared at once to say that this measure is full of wisdom and ought at once to be adopted. I will not attempt to state in the slightest degree, the satisfaction which Hon. Gentlemen near me seem to have felt on the announcement of this plan, until I shall have previously ascertained that I do fully under stand all its provisions. In the first place, I wish to learn if I have understood the Noble Lord aright, that the Tithe Composition Act is to remain in full force, and whether the Acts alluded to in the speech from the Throne are to be passed in addition to that, and not fer the purpose either of its repeal or modification. In a word, I want to know whether or not tithes are to be commuted into a fixed charge upon the land, and in that form continue to be collected. The House will recollect that in the l a st Parliament a proposition was made for the establishment of Diocesan Corporations. I should like to learn whether or not that plan at all enters into the contemplation of his Majesty's Government. I think I understood the Noble Lord to say, that we are now to have in Ireland one great Spiritual Corporation for the management of all the tem poralities of the Church, whether arising from tithes, or from the lands in the possession of the Bishops. Lord AL'I HORP—I did not speak of it as a corpora tion ; what I said was, that the funds now derived from the Church cess should be placed at the disposal of a Board of Commissioners, hereafter to be appointed for the ma- i nagement of that fund, and by them applied to all the purposes of buildings and repairs to which those funds have been in all times past applicable. That was not the same with the Diocesan Corporations of which the Noble Lord had been speaking. Sir ROBERT PEEL—I am anxious to ascertain this —Are Diocesan Corporations, or the General Board of Commissioners to have the management of the tithes; anti whoever may have the management of them, I wish to know to what purposes is it intended to appropriate them? Lord ALTHORP was understood to reply, that the funds accruing from the composition of tithes were to be paid to the clergy; and he was further understood to say, that the Bill then intended to be introduced would not touch upon the subject of the tithe composition. Sir R. PEEL—I admit that it is hardly fair that I should press the Noble Lord with any more questions ; but I will take the liberty of observing, that the difficulty I have had, and that I am sure any one must have ex• perienced, if he attempted to grapple with the subject, in coming to a clear understanding of what the Noble Lord's plans are ; it is for this reason that I would call upon the unprejudiced portion of the House to suspend their judg merits till we are really acquainted with this great measure, and qu'alified to form an opinion upon its principles and details. In taking the liberty of suggesting the difficulties which stand in our way as to the thrmation of a sound opinion upon this matter, I would inquire whether or not the whole revenue of the united Church of England and Ireland, as it exists in Ireland, is to be applied to eerie sias ical purposes solely ? As to the tithe portion of it, I certainly do understand that that is to he levied as hereto fore, and strictly confined to ecclesiastical purposes. So far, then, for the speech of the Noble Lord. I will now, with the permission of the Hovse, state the impressions with which I approached the discussion of this question, and the general principles according to which I should be inclined to agree to a modification of the present Church propetty in Ireland. 1 admit that the time was arrived when the whole state of the Church ought to be submitted to an enlarged and comprehensive consideration ; but I desire it to be understood that I make this admission not for the purpose of couciliating any party, but because I think that that consideration should be entered on for the purpose of adding to the stability of that Church, by the correction of any real abuses that may be found to exist. Above all things, I desire it to be understood, that I do not admit that in any change which might be made, there should be any alteration made in the pro perty of the Church, which would in the slight , est degree have the effect of divesting it from eccle siastical purposes, for that, I have always main tained would shake the foundation upon which all property rests. Amongst the abuses of the Church, I should, of course, include pluralities, and I should like wise be anxious to see corrected all abuses arising from the tenure of sinecures. The correction of these would, I well know, have the effect of destroying the utility of the Church for the purposes of a Government desiring IN Ivo nage ; but I would support such changes as tending to the advancement of morals, and as calculated to extend the blessings of the Protestant faith. While upon this part of the subject, I cannot help aaknowledging, that one of the purposes with which I rose to address the House was, to call attention to the present state of the Prorestant clergy in Ireland. lam sure there is no Gentleman connected with that part of the United Kingdom who will not readily admit the gross and crying injustice to which the Pro t-stant clergy have been subjected ; and although we must despair of seeing them permanently snpplied out of the public funds, yet I an bound to say, that I should not object to some mode of temporary relief heidg adoptedior that most suffering and injured class. 1 now come to another pin of the su je't.t. I have thought, and cottt nue to think, that no settlement will be satisfactory that does not include some art angements with respect to the Vestry Cess, with a view to its being placed upon a different footing from that which at present prevails. I always thought that there would be immense advantage in any plan which went to remove the peasantry as far as possible from any colli sion of a hostile nature with the Roman Catholic pea santry of Ireland ; but as almost the whole of the landed property of that country is in the hands of Protestant pro prietors, I think nothing could be more fair or reasonable than the payment of those imposts by the proprietors of land ; thus, as I should say, relieving the Roman Catholic proptietors from the payment of any imp osts in the for m of Church cess. Those would be my g eneral propositions. Now let us look at those of the Noble Lord, whi ch all must admit are of a very extensive nature. He proposes to abolish ten of two-and - twen t y Bisho p s. A t this pro position the House seemed t o ex p ress g eneral s atisfaction. —(Loud cheers.) Yes , those ver y che ers destroy mycoi,rtnden on the plan.--(Renewed cheering.) N ow I would the House, before it conies to a final de c ques tion, to inquire wh at are the ditties io l i confidence iyh this s beg which, in consequence of the other alterations proposed-- to many of which I do not object--the Bishops would have to perform, and whether some other mode than this extensive numerical reduction might not be resorted to without increased expense to the country or injury to the e stablishment. I am not one of those who think 22 Btshops too many for Ireland, neither am I prepared to say that the see of Derry ought to be allowed to remain at 8,0001. a year, for I think it may be doubted whether or not it would he a great improvement to divide that and dive 4,000. a t year sum between two Bishops, e b t ets) each. Be that, h owever , as i t m sy, these will show some Hon. Membsrs, who may n °t I : t r uni, tively have consid ere d t h e su bj ec t, that it wa s doe r with difficulties, and th a t, un der the circu:nar,otio ought to be allow e d ti me f or f ur ther ern° ot a' have already said that I am d es i rou s of seeing u.n..0 rated, but that of n ecess i ty l ea ds to the churches and glebe-ho uses , an d a ll this 1, of _017r,„ as earnestly as any man, for I am anxious to.lnlt testant faith and Pr o t es t ant i nstru ction bro t e r er il a ds, as possible to th e P ro t estant popu l a tion of Ir I am sure that H on . M em b ers w ill se e that p the lii this nature must h ave t h e e ff ect o f increasina u „, r , of the episcop a l p ort i on o f t h e Ch urc h. BY d e cd the number of th ose w h o , in the course of this e le have be e n most improperly called the work :re you increase th e d ut i es of the Bishops with most properly, and with the other you din Th 'i er numbers, as I would contend, most unwiselY• t e • I have said from the commencement , nor , to see the number of the parochial cle r gy ia te for I think 1 should thereby greatly P re'. si temporal as well as the spiritual interest s of people of Ireland, by increasing. the BUM"' dent gentry in that part of the United King d° ::,;s 6 the Hon. Memb er f or B o l ton w i ll see t h a t nn t ",l, e r more injudiciou s th an any suc h procee di n g, f ' t he' the amount of capital employed in that c ountry be, the profits; th e w h o l e o f wh i ch : pro fi ts would e t' might assume, carried over to England, to the g ditioo ment of the Irish, leaving them in a worse CO r ' 0 03' before. I supp ose we h ave i n th i s ma tter be e p grievous mistak e d ur i ng t h e whole o f o ur li / x eg pe l t d. have uniformly th oug h t t h at t h e mote money'ebe fo r any district th e b e t ter m i g h t t h e popu l a tion ot r circumstance ; but no w , upon t h e b es t Oil /13 0 1 11 nised principles of political economy, we leal l ed s al is no truth in those crude and old fasbi ° of as aomittrwl ll ahmiennebyo o :danpouin w ioeteuwl sedm e osi rnes v hnepibo e ,afibbriDen r atide , rteoceut( mt,p l nhbmi t ceccelyfoiorueoanlfnl much erphveronia o i el tsrdnab n shl tycsuich e e nee:let welltmt orsea asao.nr u se ntyu s cieLye t fesootnpeti s hm:ac a aoy,mttn,h conclusions that ift h sct dotc e t r t o t' e absentee landlords should be s p ifi o eat e d r t n leeP t l ren: : : : e n ohe l ff a e L s n tiin d o ih: n r ; :i d tt e b sohU n f u eu t :°lrnt ! t ed l eay s tie la . :s o l:: :, to acknowledge that such opinions did by no ive 3- :, l de Let us neCogfrenrmtray disposit►°° ales the Bishop of Cloyne, ask ourselves this que' t s' Irishlnedr clergyman yl em temp ar,l gentleman grepa a oti n na y t t i fni view, the giee ~:w o taitsrisyenptolati part tt feth be is ea ► coat, and says his pray ers tw i ce a d ay ? E se° ; l 4e n lic t rel e which he may be fixed? Most Hon. Member s perfectly awa re , t h at if t i t h es were completely r elate.he effect wo u ld b e , t h at t h e who l e of the Prr-oatt be pocketed by th e l an dl or d ; b ut t h at surely 1%-restf summation for whi c h any person s h arer IY the happiness of the country would desire to n'ielidt I am sure I but spe.k the sentiments of every Opecte Church and to religion, when I say, that th e , to clergyman s h ou ld b e preserved i n circumstan'7lofer"' up his head amongst men to whom he is not i d tea t educatmn, manners, or moral worth ; a nd I T i° ,ll say, that n ) sma ll port i on of his efficiency W;i upon the fa c t o f hi s respecta bi l i ty in a tw'r- art°, view. I really cannot again arrive at this P. question vvitbiut once mote c tiling the attrlitit Cl' House to the pr se n t s t ate o f t h e I r i s h P r otea r s ir lam sure !hat there is not one, eve n amongst e' opponents of tith es , w h o d oes not f ee l t h a t they 'e ye d most most bar lly dealt with, and that they have ° a le° grossest amid most cruel injustice, and I Pe r l u bsn that there are n o I ris h M em b ers who would sc' discontented, if the present proposition had V -- „ r st, ponied with a proposal for affording them setup lid lief ; for it is well known that many of them ar-d disabled from th e per f ormance of the i r dut ies, a j n et / them hav e f orgone t h e exact i on of the i r legit unuodef then, I would p ut i t to t h e House, fitting', t bat i - el", circumsances, th e y s h ou ld cont i nue o bj ec ts ° o pir; nary support. There is now one r e maining, 1,0 which I sh ou ld w i s h t o a dd ress t h e House, 50", d it with th e vi ew o f 1 arn i ng f rom the Noble Lord s unk or not he intend s t h at t h e I r i sh Prelacy sh°ll. as heretofor e , t o b e represented i n the H ou se °' ( rg el • four. If he all o w s th e num b er to remain utlharef' establishes a greater di s p roport i on b etwee n tl t ,(l ° .; tatives and the represented t h an was con teme d istiP f time of the Union ; at the same times, if h , oo the number, he equally vi o l a t es t h e A ct of lin I ) e el let it be rememb ere d, t h a t if h e ma k es t he twelve, and the representative portion four, eight to do the duty of all Ireland. As to the , t bitl" lay patronage, an d l ay i mpropr i at i on, 1 do °°tosecr Noble Lord has touched upon it at all in a f t bi' shoul I satisfy th e H ouse ; ne i t h er do I th i n k fr a d to position for enabling the tenant of Bishop's e vert hit property into perpetuity on the PaYi er ,t , years' porch; tv: at all eligible, for, as I tin 0 / plan of the No'ile Loid, it is not six year s ,,dieg t , '. according to the imp r ov e d va l ue , b u t Etec°' ode', rent paid to the Bishop. [Lord Althorp irtif to signify six years' purch ase accor di ng to t, - t i l e° value.] Among s t o th er thi ngs I w i s h to knov': thus to be obtained appli ca bl e or not t o seen°. jos, I ant aware th a t th e w h o l e o f t hi s p l an his re(;rolI'. several Members ar o u n d me t h e most perfect 1 1 01 but I tell them that their joy is my grief, an d ; most earnestly beg time to consider ma t u rely t , i l' o %jec There are parts of th e measure to w hich 't which necessarily will meet with my opposi ti° oo l ; tire measure, as a wh o l e , a ll I can say i s , thst o o' that it may be productive of the benefits whiebttgeo the promoters of it expect. May it be ad v f ot e A n ti. the Church and t o t h e country, an d may ' it solubly the bonds that ought to unite Cathy"' a il,: testant , . I sin cere l y trust t h at there nlaY I:) ) er alteration as t o Ch urc h property, an d t h a t an ° nt ment may not be found to c onvert i t to differe - iy l e If I thought the present measures would s ° ,, r at ie, such an al erotica], I should o bj ect to i t as permanent evil cons e q uences. , Mr. STANLEY —The measure of C" - 0 0 , proposed by my Noble Fri-nd, the principl e atb' it is founded, an d t h e recept i on i t has met., bands of thi s H ouse, would have rendere d unnecessary for me to trespass on the time °' o tis ° ' tlemen, had it not been for one or two obs er Aseif fell from the Right Hon. Baronet who last 0-3od House. I feel the peculiarity of my situatio°' If 1 4 that it entitles Inc to considerable indulgence' 4 . 0 0 possible for me to feel regret upon any on e t ' s ot f ; being the organ of Government—if I could u e d any measures did riot originate with me, ° i d be, should have fallen into other hands, it tst g ee they wire su c h th at t h ey prom i se d adva°;ill empire, and t en d e d to promote good ags all.---(Hear, hear). Wh atever persona l fee t he he enlisted on either side with respect to the measure, they seem to be done away with by t rib l Z Noble Frien introduce lit, an d by the mann er „ I w et' 1 House received it. I hail all this as a haPPY.i et t kind benevolence all seem in c li ne d to mane ittl, Ireland ; sod I also hail it as a good augurY% tn; and unimpassioned discretion that the ria ti° ,,./l , reason expect from a R e f or m e d Parliarne ° 0 5 4 When I see almost a general and unhesitating carded to my Noble Friend's measure, and .vir ° , o o (lr such assent is given t o a measure fraught nit'l,erie'v and utility—when I see th a t even f ew o f the 0 ' sit; s.rvatives do not thi n k ti t to ob j ect to i t, I fel:see; 1 ask upon it a s an omen of what maybe Loris House. It is an omen that this Hon ° tn e "( originate nor sanction any rash or head,oog get t' , at it will, as it is bound to do, pr° °l°t s e large and extensive Relurm—but yet not a get ous to the institutions of the nation and tie 11`' prosperity of the country at large.—(Hea r :4 3 6° , will, therefore, express it, the deepest gra t ' f - a c o °°: great measure now before the House; an d ; ilb e ' e from saying that I now come forward an' il a eo gn e l ' e Bill proposed by the Noltle Lord, my e t 4, when I say this, I distinctly declare at the 9i t I do not consent, and never mean to conse °- ,', sure at all likely to destroy or weaken in at i Y,':O o r testant religion in Ireland, for I am r° ° : be Fr i anxious as any human being can be--th at 'l o , e r then,religion is measure, e prosper country ►D ly promote u)ean P r ot Protestant estan t interests i n t ai e s ett it liiiegl()uuol:srffet,ili:a 'lest( in of those terms, but I mean the one ' OO O it ligion—those which promote harmony' and Protestant, and, by so doing, notate P t / the security of the whole einpire.--( llear. e am rejoiced to find that such a inea'ur t" ge even t a b p y pt t •o h v os e e d b w y h s o o ( m i tf a r y Friend, and nho differ among t heinselv e ; oo stl c t explanation of the cause of this general !Pl,Ptllat Noble Friend's measure ; nor do I thu i pi ,• o , n r , , cannot concur with the Right Hon. `. r olta of the Hon. and Learned Alember for D u e - o llis le / I have so often conic into disagrecablebotoes,e/ whom I have had to fight so many _ 3O on' d whom, probably, I shall have to tight '" Member for Dublin ought to bear the liinon.ollplinetinonbert.sroolool: He stfo I do not :bink that the assent of the