The Sun. — London, England, 1833-02-08 00:00:00

is a property tax, but I object to it became it is obnoxious and unequal in its pressure. Ido consider it, indeed, if after the earnest efforts of the people in the metropolis and elsewhere, no relief is to be afforded, as amounting to a reflection on this Reformed House. I shall not now enter upon another tax, which is most injurious and unpopular, I mean the tax on knowledge, further than to say that, whilst we hear complaints of the misery, wretched ness, and crime, that exist in this country, I have no doubt that in a great measure they are to be imputed to the deplorable state of ignorance in which the people are kept.—(Hear, hear.) Sir, when I look at this speech, I find that the disturbances in . Portugal are placed in the front. Why, I ask, should the people of England he insulted by giving such prominence to the affairs of Portugal while their own wants and requests are neglected ? I had hoped it would he found they had been active; but I would rather they had taken an open, an honest, and a manly part with one side, than have acted at all in an un derhand manner. With regard to Portugal, I would sly, let the people select their own form of Government, and not let the ships of this country go and lie in their ports, while England herself was far from being interested. As regarded the question between Belgium and Holland, I am one who, after the first protocol, en tered my decided protest against the interference ; and I then received an assurance from the opposite Bench (the Treasury Bench) that that interference should not lead to ewe. I greatly fear that the part we have taken sa ill make it difficult to get out of it in the most licnourable way.—(Hear, hear.) I entreat Ministers to place no confidence in military despots. It was thought as there were united five, which were called the Great Powers, we were sure of success, and I ventured an opi nion that, before the transaction was over, they would make what use of us they could and then desert us. What has been the consequence? Austria, Russia, and Prussia, now when the question is about to be settled, after two years of negotiation, declare off, and we have been at an expense of maintaining a fleet amounting to 1,200,0001. I put it to the House whether our own affairs are to be neglected while we are interfering with the affairs of other countries? For myself, without some docu ments, or some information more than I already have, my opinion is much against the course that has been pursued by Ministers. I am anxious not to follow the steps of other Speakers, but to comment on the course which the Government has pursued. With regard to France, I am of opinion, that nothing is more conducive to the peace of Europe than close alliance with that country. It is the richest neighbour—the richest country, in Europe, and the more intercourse we have with it the greater will be the advantages to England. I therefore concur entirely in the alliance we have formed with France, and I sincerely hope that it will long remain uninterrupted. I shall pass over the Bank of England and the East India Charter questions. I only regret that those questions have been put off so long ; that is only to be accounted for from the number of important questions that have been continually before the House—(Hear)—but I hope that those two important questions will now, without delay, be settled to the satisfaction of the country. .—(Hear, hear.) It would have been to me a matter of great satisfaction if I could have learnt from the speech, or from any other thing that has been stated, is hat are sons. of the alterations that are to be proposed in the Church. —(Hear, hear.) Whatever may be given, nothing shot t of an effectual reform in the Church will be acceptable. The number of persons who do not belong to the Church far outnumber those who do; and unless his Majesty's Government are active in removing the abuses in the Church, unless these abuses are dealt with in a decided and in an efficient manner, I fear that the oppor tunity of effecting it will be entirely lost. Let me then express a hope that from what I have heard of the reform that is to be proposed, it will be such as will be satisfactory. I offer an advice to the Noble Lord oppo site, perfectly disinterestedly, when I assure that Noble Lord that the best means of protecting the Church is by introducing an effective and speedy Reform,—removing all the abuses that now so glaringly exist in it. I have never advocated or stood up for the spoliation of Church property; but I have said this, that if you put off the day too long, instead of the Reform that might usefully be made, you will have nothing but spoliation, and a spoliation that you will by no means have the power to prevent. I express my entire concurrence in the proposed reform of the Church, and I sincerely hope it will he found to be such as will meet with tha approbation of the majority of the country.—( Hear, hear.) One drawback is with regard to the revenue. wish upon this the Noble Lord may take advice from past experience, and consider that what ever application of the revenue may be made must he for efficient services. Every change that k to be made must be to strike off those which are inefficient, anti to preserve those only that are useful and nece-nary, and to have such filled by persons who would properly perform the duties of them. If I could pass by a paragraph here I would do it, but it is so contrary to my experience of what ought to be, that I cannot help making an observation upon it. I mean that paragraph which talks of the House in its deli berationa having a due regard to the security of the Church, as established according to larv.—(Hear, hear, hear.) It would, in my opinion, have been better ic the present public state of f-eling if that paragraph had frets left out, for it calls public attention to this point, opal induces me to inform the Noble Lord, that in that part of the country where I come from, and where religion is at tended to with much more particularity than anywhere else, great bodies are meeting for the purpose of removing the Church of Scotland, Entirely beneficial as it is to the i:ountry, and pure in its system. I, therefore, call upon the Noble Lord, if, in a country where the Established Church is much better founded and stands upon purer prin. eipbs than ours does, the inhabitants of that country are s aeoecting its removal, not to trust too much to its establish rnebt or purity in this country. The paragraph respecting Ireland cannot but call for the greatest consideration. As reprds Ireland, there is not a single Act which has been passed since the present Government came into power, which Ido not think objectionable, and calculated to give dissatisfaction to the people of that unhappy country. Majesty's Ministers are now showing every dispo sition to t efuse to do every thing that was required for the peace of Ireland.—(Cries of "No, no.'') As far as we cap judge st present, nothing but a hostile feeling has been manifested. The mover of the address himself bas insulted the Irish people, by saying that they were led by any man. No doubt if any man had lauence in Ireland, it was the Honourable and iLearned Member for Dublin, but the Irish people did not plorishly follow him, or complain of his dictation. Their grievances existed before the Hon. Member for Dublin was born, and they merely reposed confidence in him because they found him to be a true, honest, and faithful represen iatiep of their rights.—(Hear, hear.) It is not proper then to taunt the Hon. and Learned Member in the man pgr in which be has been taunted. It is the personality that•has been used towards him in this and former ses li - aiuns, that. I must regret as the cause of this irregular kind of discussion, I put it to any calm, impartial man, ~Mather, being held up as a bird of prey, ready to fix his talons in his victim, is treatment under which we could expee ; the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, even with half the sp i r i t we i t zlow him to be possessed of, could be quiet. If he acts against ,the laws of the country, let him be pun ished by those laws, Lea do not let us every night have a personal discussion between him and the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland. I will not go into the evils which :stisted in Ireland before the present Government came into office, for we are all pretty well agreed as to its liaracter ; but I charge the Right Hon. Secretary and the Noble Lord opposite, with having violated their faith with this House, and must say that it is impossible for os to have such confidence in them as can justify us in giving them powers beyond the law. Let me first ex press my regret at the Right Hon. Gentleman having been able to listen to the list of evils enumerated by the Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin, and yet think Ireland can go without other remedial blew:l4.4:a than those which be has yet spoken of as his in tention to bring forward. Did he hear the Hon. and Learned Gentiernan's statement of the condition of the Irish Magistracy—of the abuses of the Bench—of the manner in which a Judge actually altered the law, without being impeached, although well deserving of it ? Mr. STANLEY—Perhaps the Hon. Gent. will allow me to explain the real statement of this case to him. By the Reform Act, the decision of the Assistant Barrister, might be appealed from to the Judge of Assize. That had been done in the present case, and his decision re versed. Mr. HUME—At any rate it has not been contradicted, that the people of Ireland have no confidence in their Bench of Judges, that they have been appointed from the worst motives, and were u tt er ly unworthy, in most instances, of the situations they held. If Englishmen were to be Fo treated they would deserve to be slaves if they did not rise and demand a correction of the abuse.—(Cheers.) Is it, I would ask, no breach of faith that these abuses have not been correcte d ? Wh y, I have myself heard it stated i n this House that the abuses should be corrected. They have not been, and I consider it a great breach of faith that they have not.—(Hear.) Is it not, I would ask, a source of great complaint, on the part of the people of Ireland, that the Jury Bill was allowed to lie so long on the table of the other House, during the last session, Ministers either had or had not •. the power to remedy the grievances of Ireland. If they hail not the power to do what they considered right, and what they were pledged to do, they ought not to continue in office a day longer ; if they have the power, they ought at least to give some explanation to the country why the measures which they stood pledged to carry are not carried. Why have they allowed the law about Juries, which they have themselves declared to be unjust, to continue in operation for one, year? This was one ground of complaint, and since that remains mummified, he would refuse the additional powers which they re quired, till be knew whether it was their intention to re medy it or not. The appointment of Sheriffs was another grand cause of complaint, and the political influence which they possessed. Ministers might have submitted a notice on that subject, which would have been some proof of their intention to take the affairs of Ireland into their serious consideration. Ministers said nothing about Grand Juries. The Right Hon. Member said nothing of depriving Catholics of a share in the offices in the appointment of Government—said nothing of the 26 officers appointed by the present Government, not one of whom was a Catholic. If there were no other ground on which the Irish natio❑ have to complain, this would he perfectly sufficient—that all the offices are given, not to Irishmen, but foreigners.—(A laugh.) Mr. O'CONNELL—They are foreigners to us, since they are of a different religion. —(Laughter.) Mr. HUME continued—That alone was a sufficient grievance to account for the discontent of Ireland. Now what would the people of this country think, I would ask, if the Noble Lords opposite should take it in their heads to appoint 25 Magistrates in this country, all Catholics ? Would such a measure give satisfaction ? The gentlemen who had expressed such different senti ments some time ago, no sooner got upon the opposite (Treasury) bench than, by an infatuation which seemed to pervade all who took their seats there—(Laughter)—all their liberal sentiments vanishes]. It is true we sometimes hear a few liberal expressions, but see no liberal acts. I must beg pardon, however, of the Noble Lord (Althorp), of whom I must say, we seldom hear anything but what is liberal.—(Hear, hear.) When Ministers were called on, some time ago, to put an end to the disturbances in Ireland, by calling for fresh powers, they refused to ask for them, saying, that the best mode of tranquillizing that country was, by removing the grievances which the people complained of. I will ask now, how have they fulfilled that assertion ? I beg to trouble the House with a part of the speech of the Right Hon. Secretary on this subject. The Hon. Member having read part of the speech referred to, then proceeded. Nows what is it they proposed to do ? Why to stifle the voice of a whole nation.—(Cries of " Hear.") I will only take the evidence of the Right Hon. Secretary himself as the best proof of my assertion. He says that out of 102 rewards, amounting to 12,0001., only 2 have been claimed-.-40 completely does that prove that the nation is united, that money will not bribe them, and that there are no means of detaching men ; so that it is, as I say, proceeding against a whole nation. The Right Hon. Secretary, in his speech on a former occasion, declared, that it was neces sary to make such seasonable and just concessions as would be the means of tranquillizing the country. Now, I will ask, has that been done ? When he was called on to take extraordinary means, he refused, saying he bad means sufficient to put down disturbances. Ireland was perfectly quiet when the Right Hon. Secretary went there.— (Hear.) It has been said that great content was expected when Roman Catholic Emancipation should be granted : and so it was ; for the people afterwards expressed their gratitude in every possible way towards those who supported that measure.—(Hear, hear.) Had they not also been grateful for the Reform Bill? And had they not done every thing that could be desired of them, until that unlucky hour, when the Tithe Bill was introduced ?—(Hear.) With re gard to the Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin (Mr. O'Connell) no man has been more maligned than he was for his conduct on that occasion; and it ought not to go forth that he is the Agitator of Ire land. Toe Agitator is the Right Hon. Secretary, and the Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin, would, upon that occasion, have gone down on his knees to overt the threatened danger. When the question of tithes was brought before the House, it consisted of four divisions: to three of them almost every Member connected with Ireland assented ; to the other, which called for extra ordinary power, which placed the people under the mili tary, and gave the powerof prosecution and arrest without the ordinary forms of law, a great objection was made. Sir J. Newport, not now a Member, Sir H. Parnell, also not now a Member, which I regret exceedingly—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear")—and the Honourable Member for Dublin, did all they could to induce Ministers not to press that measure. There was scarcely an Irishman in the House but joined in deprecating the introduction of the question then, and telling Ministers that if they pressed it, such scenes would be produced as would be disgrace ful to those who caused them, and ruinous to the country. When I hear the repeal of the Union so much spoken about, I would ask, is there a man more anxious for the Union than Sir J. Newport?—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) Yet all merged their opinions in order to avert that evil. Deputations waited on the Right Hon. Secretary, and meetings were held in vain.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Secretary was inexorable. I said that Ministers would rue it. I had expected that Lord Grey would have judged for himself, but it ap pears that he is under some spell that prevents him exercising his great faculties, and Ireland is left to one who is not capable of judging of her situation. I am in formed also, that it is the same with the Noble Lord opposite. I am sure that Lord Grey and the Noble Lord opposite, if I can judge by their recorded opinions for the last 25 years. must have bad some new light to work this extraordinary change on them. What have we then to complain of? The Ministers called to gether 230 English Members to ascertain their opinions. The Hon. Gentleman then said they bad the whole power of the military in Ireland already, and it would be a de gradation to their character and functions to make them actually tithe-proctors. They had never tried Irelind with conciliating measures, anti he would never consent to grant the extraordinary powers now sought. It was dastardly conduct in the Government to put down the meetings in Ireland for petitioning against paying tithes.—(Hear, hear, hear.) If they were not afraid of letting the truth be known, they never would have attempted to overawe the Irish.—(Cheers.) — Where was there one remedy suggested for the griev ances which were felt and complained of?—(Hear.) They had pledged themselves to a measure of conciliation when the coercive measure was last Session introduced. And not one item of redress had been yet given to Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) Dragoons had scoured the country, and Ireland was now in a state of civil warfare in consequence of the misconduct of Government. No country invaded by a foreign enemy was ever ravaged by military in the manner it has been by the army under the direction of the Right Hon. Gentleman. It is the Right Hon. Gentleman who is the real Repealer.— (Cheers and laughter.) It is useless to charge the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin with raising the cry for repeal, when he is merely the agent of his country men in asking for their rights. If the Noble Lord opposite and others have forgotten those li beral principles it is for the House of Commons to act upon them. Why had a reformed House of Commons been loudly called for by the country ? That the bad mea sures of a Government might be checked; that the griev ances of the people might be redressed._-( Hear, hear, hear.) But the Right Hon. Chief Secretary declared that the grievances of the peopl e o f I re l an d s h ou ld not h e redressed. He (Mr. Hutne) could repose no confidence in a Government which permitted such a declaration. If the Noble Lord at the head of his Majesty's Government were to act wisely, he would withdraw a Lord Lieutenant froth Ireland, he would interpose no obstacle between the imme diate communications of the Irish people with the English Government, and lie would never allow the Right Hon. Gentleman to go to Ireland again. —(Hear, hear, hear.) Let him (Mr. Hume) do the Right Hon. G..ntletnan jus tice ; he believed the Right Hon. Gentleman had in tended to do his best, but it was sufficient to say that he had failed, anti that he did not possess the confidence of one man in Ireland.—(Hear, bear, hear.) Was the proposed course the way to acquire that confidence? The argument of the Right Honourable Gentleman was, that • Government must be feared before they were loved. Was not such doctrine enough to induce a British House of Commons to rise and express one universal sentiment of indignation ? At least let them not, by arming the Government with fresh powers, tender themselves the partisans of blood. Ireland had already been worse treated by this country than Greece had been by the Turks; and now his Majesty's Go vernment came forward with propositions for fresh powers, without having in a single instance redeemed the pledge to redress grievances with which they bad ac companied their last proposition of a similar nature. He repeated, that he was tinah!e to give his confidence to men who had so grossly. mismanaged the power which had a'reatly been intrusted to them. The Hon. and Learned m em h e r for Leeds had asserted, that for 20 years before the Union, Ireland had been overawed by England. He (Mr. IL) bad been looking at the documents, and he found that in 1792 there were only 8,000 troops in Ire land. He did not understand, therefore, what the Hon. aid Learned Member for Leeds meant by overawing. Nur was the argument of the Hon. and Learned Gentle. nun founded on his assumption that the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin wished for the restoration of the old Irish Parliament a just one. What the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin wanted was a Reformed Irish Parlia ment. If by the decision of the House that night they agreed to place fresh powers in the hands of his Majesty's Government, he (Mr. H.) should himself become a Re pealer at once—(Hear, hear)—and why not? Ireland could not be worse off than under the military despotism which it was proposed to inflict upon her. He would now say a few words to those Members who had constituents, as most of them now had. ,By those constituents they were c dled upon to make every effort to diminish the enormous establishments of the country. Were they aware that the military establishment of Ireland cost annual) , two mil- lions ? If they redressed the grievances of which the Irish justly complained, grievances which no freemen ought to submit to, grievances which made slaves of, those who were subjected to them, that large establishment might be reduced. By maintaining it a reduction of taxation was rendered impossible. If his Majesty's Government would consent to redress the grievances of Ireland, the military establishment in that country might he at once reduced from between thirty and forty thousand ► o ten thousand men. Was not that worthy of consideration by a reformed Parliament? Again, if Ireland were to be maintained as if it were a military garrison—if it were to be treated as if it were a conquered country, how was it to he expected that the people would ever obtain any profitable employ ment ? Who would be mad enough to carry his capital to a country in such circumstances? But it was impos. sible to expect that a people could be civilized unless they were employed. An unemployed people must necessarily be a lawless banditti. Every measure which had been proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman had extended the evils of disturbance, instead of restoring confidence and tranquillity. He allowed that Ireland was at present in a most disturbed state. But who had produced that state ? Ills Majesty's Government. They once had peace in Ireland, and they ought to have preserved it. What was the cause of all this? The Irish Church Establishment..._ (Hear.) They might disguise it as they would, but that was the real cause. Fourteen years ago he had declared in his place, that it was necessary to the peace of Ireland that the existing Church Establishment in that country should be atolished. He now repeated the declaration. Were the people of Scotiand saddled with a Church Establishment contrary to the will of the majority ? 'Were the people of England saddled with a Church Establishment contrary to the will of the majority ? Why then should Ireland be so saddled ? Was it for the support of religion ? That was mere mockery. It was for the purpose of raising a revenue to enrich Bishops and other dignitaries. Why were twenty-two Bishops considered necessary for half a million of people? He had i❑ his possession a long list of Deans, Archdeacons, &c., all useless to the nation at large ; and, although partial interests might be consulted by maintaining them, that House ought to consider only what was calculated to benefit the whole community. Was it fitting and was it wise, in the present day, amidst the events which were passing in this country and else where, when the people were beginning to think, aye, and to act for themselves—was it fitting and was it wise to persevere in such a course? He warned his Majesty's Government—he warned the House against doing so. Let them look at what had occurred in his own country. Did not Scotland nobly and successfully resist the attempt which had been made to saddle it with a hierarchy? He could never complain of a nation which endeavoured to achieve, .in this respect, what the Scotch had achieved. What right had they to say--the English shall be free, the Scotch shall be free, hut the Irish shall he slaves?--(Hear.) Why continue to keep up an establishment which had been the bane of Ireland ? He was sorry that it was not in his power to place that confidence in his Majesty's Government on this point which he could wish to place in them. For the acts of that Government, Earl Grey, at the head of it, was responsible. Was it possible that that Noble Earl, after having stood sa long on the emi nence of public opinion—having so lung and so openly professed liberal opinions —was it possible that he could permit such a course of proceeding to be continued ? Was it possible tl at be could do so, when, by the boon which it was in his power to bestow on Ireland, he might restore the peace of Ireland, and consolidate the union of the two countries ? He (Mr. Hume) had no wish to see that union disturbed, and he thought he might undertake to say for the Hun. and Learned Member for Dublin, that if the peace and happiness of Ireland were restored by justice being done to that unhappy country, that Hon. and Learned Gentleman would have no wish to see the Union disturbed. For his part, he (Mr. Hume) was persuaded that any such disturbance would be highly mischievous to both countries, and he should, therefore, be no friend even to the consideration of the question of a repeil of the Union, if the House and the Government did that which every feeling of justice called upon them to do.—(Hear, hear.) He would not again place con fidence in Ministers till their former pledges were made good. As to the address, he did not wish to go so far as to object to it all. But with that part which referred to Ire land, he most assuredly altogether differed.—(Hear, hear.) If Ministers neglected to remind his Majesty of what was for the good of his people, or any portion of them, he trusted they should ever perform their duty in that respect. On that account he had certainly felt a desire to introduce a paragraph in the address, reminding his Majesty what grievances had to be relieved, what taxation reduced. The time was not far distant when be hoped they should re vert to the good old practice of requiring Ministers to lay before the House, at the opening of each session, an expli cit detail of all those matters which it was their intention to introduce.—( Hear, hear.) The present custom might he well for Parliament as formerly constituted, but, as in the Reformed Parliaments Members would be required to do their duty uprightly and faithfully--for they were sent to vote, not as Ministers'pleased, but as their country re quired—(Cheers)—he should suggest the withdrawal of the amendment of his Hon. Friend the Member for Dub- lin, in favour of one which would, at the proper time, be introduced by his Hon. Friend the Member for Lambeth. He questioned very strongly, indeed, the propriety and justice of granting to Ministers the extraordinary powers they sought for, without a previous ample inquiry by that House.—(Hear, hear.) If he recollected rightly, in every instance of applicatiOn for extraordinary powers, instead of placing hastily beyond the sacred pale of the law any por tion of his Majesty's dominions, it had always been con sidered incumbent upon them by the Ministers of the d ty to come prepared with strong evidence and a com plete cas e .—(Ch eers .) H e now ca ll e d upon Ministers to show upon what grounds—on the faith of what statements they were prepared to outlaw the whole of Ireland (Loud cheers.) Was it not, he would ask, enough to raise even this country ? He would say there was no case what ever, calling for the concession by the House of these ex traordinary powers. Still he hoped the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin would withdraw his amendment, and support that of the Right Hon. Member for Lambeth, which was more appropriate to the occasion, and well calculated to meet the views of many Hon. Gentlemen. If the Hon. Member for Dublin had really the influence—the great and wonderful influence which he was supposed to have— if he did possess such amazing power over his country men; so much so, that it was said he wished to be King,. and had already the power of King—(Loud laughter from the Ministerial Benches) ; that they said (pointing to the Treasury Bench), but he (Mr. Hume) denied it—(Cons talued laughter); nay, not one sentiment in the eloquent speech last evening of the Hon. Member for Leeds, re ceived such hearty cheering, as his allusion to the sub ject ; if lie said be did possess this influence, then take him on Lis own word.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) He asks for justice, and nothing more. Let that justice be extended to Ireland, and he (Mr. Hume), and every man who now opposed with him this demand for extra ordinary powers, would then join with one accord in conceding them.—(Loud cheers.) But until that was done, he entreated the House to go along with him in refusing therm. Extraordinary powers were asked for last session—pledges of apparently the most sincere and earnest character were given, but they were never ful filled.—(Hear, bear.) He, therefore, trusted the Right lion. Member for Lambeth would be supported in the !notion which, at a proper period, would be brought before the House. The Hon. Gentleman concluded—(amidst cheers)—by expressing his hope that lie had offended no one's feelings in what he had said ; he confessed he had spoken strongly, but this could not be otherwise, when he felt warmly. Sir ROBERT FERGUSON argued in favour of the Address. Ministers did not ask to govern Ireland by force —no such thing—they merely asked that the police should be stronger only whilst insubordination prevailed, and the necessity of the case required strong remedial inea sures. To say otherwise was unfair and ungenerous. They were attacking Ministers without giving them an oppor tunity of defending theinselves—without knowing what measures they intended to propose to benefit and pacify that unhappy country.—(Hear, hear.) He asked the Hon. and Independent Members of the House to place confidence in Ministers till such time as they had been fairly tried and found wanting. Would the House be filled with so many liberal-minded Gentlemen, supporters of Government, if the Government was an illiberal Govern ment ? He would make a remark on one observation made the other night by the lion. Member for Knaves borough (Mr. Richards), who appeared very well ac quainted with Ireland, " or two unfortunate priests at least." He (Sir Robert) would have poor laws for the aged and the helpless, but he would never consent to die!. grace an able-bodied man by them. One other observa tion he begged to make on what had fallen from the Right Hon. Member for• Oxford (Sir Robert Inglis). He had no doubt in his own mind that the Church property was the property of the State—(Cheers) —and could be ap propriated by the State. In conclusion, he implored the House not to withhold their confidence from the Govern ment ; for, in a short period, he had no doubt they would show how sincerely they had at heart the real welfare of the people. He should be bitterly disappointed if their measures were not such as every well-wisher of his country would approve. Mr..OOI3BETT and Major BEAUCLERK rose together. There were loud cries for the former, but the Hon. Mem ber gave way to Major BEAUCLERK, who warned the Government of the darigera they were incurring, of the precipice they were headlong rushing to by the conduct at present adopted to wards Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) He thought that the mea sures of a first Reformed Parliament should be of a bene volent and considerate character, rather than of a tone suited to the feelings of the late House of Commons.— (Loud cries of " Hear, hear '') He asked whether, as Members returned to enforce retrenchment in every branch of the expenditure—to carry reform into every department of the State—to lighten the burdens of the nation, and relieve the heavy distresses of the people, they could be fully satisfied by that speech, which never mentioned the sufferings of the people from one end to the other.— (Cheers.) They were bowed down by their privations, which, if not equal to those endured by Ireland, were yet much greater tha❑ bad ever been known before in Eng land. It was the duty of Ministers to notice this distress —( Hear, hear)—and instantly to endeavour to apply a remedy. That could only be found in a reduction of our overgrown establishments.—(Hear, hear.) He could not hut remark on the bad taste displayed by the Noble Lord, the mover of the address—at the ill-judged and unman nerly manner in which he had attacked the Hon. Mem ber for Dublin, than which in his life he had heard no thing more shameful. For himself he was no repealer-- the great repealer, the great agitator was, as the Hon. Member fer Middlesex had stated, the Right Hon. Secre tary for Ireland. The Tithe Bill was the great cause of agitation in Ireland—(Cheers)—and who prepared and introduced it? He must say one word with regard to what be had often read of the Hon. Member for Dublin. That Learned Individual was never more mistaken, never uttered anything more false in his life, than when he stated that the English people were actuated by unkind feelings towards their Irish brethren—thattreyhad no sympathy in their sufferings. The people of England did sympathise with them—did feel for them—(Cheers)—felt that they were oppressed and ill•used unmeritedly. The Irish were a gallant, a high-minded, and a generous people, and might be turned to any course, and bound to any Govern ment by kindness and fair treatment.—(Cheers.) But certain Honourable Gentlemen would find out that they were not to he shot in the woods like so many snipes.— (Hear, and laughter.) He greatly regretted this unhappy passage in the speech, for he was sure the feelings of the Monarch were those of a humane gentleman and a Chris tian. The Ministers should have made the speech like that of the President of the United States in reference to South Carolina, which was in exactly the same situation as Ireland—they should have used the language of reason and of kindness—(Laughter and cheers)—instead of draw ing the broad sword, and attempting to quiet them by bayonet and steel.—(Hear, hear.) Nothing on earth would ever put the Irish down but justice and kindness.— (Loud cheers.) Let that be the maxim and the practice, and the Right Hon. Secretary might soon walk from East to South, and from North to West, and put to flight every rebel in the country. There was one observation made by the Right Hnn. Secretary in his speech which he had heard with amazement and indignation. Speaking of repeal, he said :Ministers " would war against it to the death." Had he (Major Beauclerk) used such a term, he would have been scouted by them as the veriest Radical breathing.—(Hear, hear, hear.) In Ministers such language was nothing—(Hear, hear)— it was not thought unbecoming, indecent, no, nor uncon stitutional—(Load cries of " Hear")—but in the repre. sentatives of the people it was designated violent and re bellious language.—(Loud cheers.) The system pursued by Ministers towards Ireland was one which would bring the whole nation to ruin ; it was one, however, which the people of England would never consent to. Already had he received intimations from several parts of the county which he had the honour to represent, denouncing, in the most determined manner, the threatened coercive measures.—(Cheers.) He, therefore, implored Ministers to pause in their career—be besought them to respond to the feelings of the country, by withdrawing that por tion of the address which referred to Ireland.—(Cheers.) Mr. HALL—It might perhaps be deemed presumption in him who had so lately had the honour of a seat in that House, to rise up for the purpose of addressing it after the able and eloquent speeches they had lately heard, and after the lengthened debate which had already been gone into, but he would rather subject himself to such an im putation than sit down and give a silent vote on the im portant question now before them. He could assure the House, that it was not his intention to take up much of their time, or to prevent Hon. Members more conversant with the state of Ireland than himself from delivering their opinions, but during the few observations he had to make upon the present occasion, he trusted lie might claim the patience and indulgence of the House.—(Hear.) The question immediately before them was that an address be presented to his Majesty, in the tenor of the speech from the Throne, to which the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin had moved an amendment, which, if allowed to pass, would compel the House to form itself into a Committee, and enter verbatim into the contents of the address moved for by the Noble Lord. Now he (Mr. Hall) would confess, that, feeling as he did every sympathy for the sufferings of his fellow-subjects in Ireland, he could not but regret the proposition of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, because he thought it would not tend to any very material benefit, but that the time of the House would be taken up in discussions which, in his opinion, had better be delayed until the questions upon which such discussions must again arise be brought fully and fairly before the House. —(Hear, hear.) Upon this ground, therefore, be was disposed to vote fur the amendment of the Honourable Member for Dublin—but in giving his support to the ad dress, he was well aware that he pledged himself to give additional powers to his Majesty's Ministers, to enable them to carry into effect the laws now in operation i❑ Ireland. He did so with reluctance, because he re gretted that cause should exist for additional powers ; but he hoped that in the course of a very few days the Right Hun. Secretary for Ireland would come down to this House fully prepared to lay before it his views and inten tions with regard to that unfortunate country, that he would enter into the subject in a tone of conciliation, not one of intimidation—( Hear, hear)—and that be would ex plain clearly and explicitly the extent of power with which be desired to be invested. He was willing to place confi dence in the Members of his Majesty's Administration, judging of them by their former conduct ; but although he voted for the address to his Majesty, he must reserve to himself that liberty which every Hon. Member now had of opposing such additional power, if he considered . - that the demand was too extensive, or if he deemed it in compatible with the real interests and welfare of the sister country.—(Cheers.) He could not sit down without ad verting to tt'e real state of Ireland. Let them view it in any way they pleased, be would say that it was in a state bordering upon distraction—the seeds of dis cord had been sown, and unless timely remedies were applied, they would reap a plentiful but woeful harvest of misery. Allusion bad been made by the lion. and (.earned Member for Dublin, to the ab sence of a Noble Lord, and it had been followed up by tie Noble Member for Devonshire. Most sincerely did he Join in the regret expressed by those Hon. Members. He rsgretted his not being here in a private as well as a public point of view. He lamented the absence of a man endued with every feeling of honour, whose con duct could only be actuated by a wish to do right; whose excellence of character, and whose integrity of principle could be surpassed. by none, but were found equalled in the person of his Noble Father—(Hear, hear, hear)—bearing a title which, connected as it was with Ireland, and repre. rented as it was by its possessor, must call forth love and regard from every feelinc, bosom in his native country._ (Cheers.) But w h at did ' this absence prove ? It showed that the Noble Lord would not sicritice his prin. ciple ; but it also manifested that there was a spirit in Ireland which had proved almost irre sistible. He was not one of those who ascribed the present miseries of Ireland to the acts of his Majesty's Ministers; lie would not even lay them entirely on the head of the former Administration ; but he believed that they were the consequences of a long series of misrule, producing internal discontent, and offering food for agi. tation.—( Hear, hear.) He would not now enter into the subject of the repeal of the Union, because if that question should ever be brought before the House he should have fu ture opportunities of discussing it; but at present he would merely state, that although he wished every reason able benefit to be conferred upon Ireland, and considered that she should partake of the same blessings and comforts which he as a subject of England enjoyed, he would oppose that measure to the utmost, because he, in his conscience, believed that a repeal of the Legislative Union, notwithstanding all that might b! now said to the contrary, would tend surely and speedily to a dismemberment of the empire. The Hon. Member then alluded to the speech of the Noble Mover of the address, and regretted the tone which had been taken by the Noble Lord, and after calling upon the House calmly and disp issi stately to review the state of Ireland, and laying i►side all animosities, to resolve at once to exert itself to ameliorate the condition of that unfor• tunate country, sat down amid loud cries of " Hear." Mr. TANCRED must say, that in his opinion all the Hon. Members who had spoken in this discussion had committed the mistake of speaking of the evils of Ireland, as if they were of a simple, and not of a complicated nature.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He was sure that that was flat the fact, and he was convinced, therefore, that the remedy for them could not possibly be found in one act of the Legislature, let that act be in itself ever so im portant.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He sincerely hoped that the evils of Ireland bad been exaggerated by some of the Honourable Members who came from that part of the empire, but if but one-half of what they had stated was true, the remedies they had proposed were puerile.—(Hear, hear.) They were inapplicable.—(Hear, hear.) They were utterly inadequate.—(Hear, hear. ) They had been told by the Hon. Member for Meath, of a state of circumstances which, if they really existed as that Hon. Member supposed, would set at defiance the effect of the remedy proposed by some Hon. Gentlemen ; nay, indeed, would become infinitely worse by its application. The Hon. Member bad stated that in a population of 8,000,000 only 1,600,000 were engaged in agriculture, that trade was utterly ruined, and that there was a mass of paupers of the most alarming extent existing through out the country. Indeed such must be the case with a po pulation of above five millions of unemployed persons. All these persons must be in a miserable condition, and it was impossible that they could be relieved, and could be restored to a state of happiness or comfort merely by im provements in Grand Jury Acts, or by the repeal of Acts relating to trespasses, or any other partial measure of that nature. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman, the Member for Dublin, had stated with truth that we were on the brink of a volcano. If only one half of what that Hon. Member had stated was true, he should be willing not only to consent to suspend the Habeas Corpus, but to, appoint the Duke of Wellington, or any other man in,whom the country had confidence, to be Dictator of Ireland.—(Hear.) Mr. O'CONNELL spoke to order.—(No.) He wished to know whether it was constitutional in that House to suggest the possibility of the appointment of a Dictator ? The SPEAKER made some observation, but in so low a tone of voice as to be quite inaudible. Mr. O'CONNELL—Wh it ! the suggestion of . the ap pointment of a Dictator over Ireland ! The SPEAKER—I am inclined to think that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, in the warmth of his feeling, somewhat misunderstands what has been stated. There was no recommendation to appoint a Dictator. What was stated was stated hypothetically; and, if I recollect rightly, it was only yesterday that some suggestion of the same kind was made with respect to a King of Ireland.— (Loud cheering and laughter, both of which continued for some time.) Mr. TANCRED continued—The House and the Hon! and Learned Gentleman might be equally assured that he had used the expression without the slightest wish to give offence to any one; and, if it did give offence, be would not repeat the obnoxious name. He had only, in the course of his argument, wished to express the idea that he would appoint some great character in whom the coun try had confidence, and tell him to see ne quid Reepublica detrimenti capiat. What were the evils from which Ireland really suffered? If they looked to other States, they might be able to trace the causes with sufficient certainty to give a gene ral answer to the question. If they did so, they would find those states happy where there was a competition in the demand for labour, and those unhappy in which there was a competition for subsistence.—(Hear, hear.) In that manner he believed that New Holland and America might be said to be happy States, for there the power to labour insured the means of subsistence. But if, on the other hand, he desired to give an instance of the want of happiness arising from the want of employment, he did ❑ot know that he could refer to one where there was more suffering than in Ireland. For evils of this nature, as they were of slow growth, so there was not any exer tion, of a legislative nature, that would instantly remove them. Such evils, too, would never be cured by agita tion.—(Hear, hear.) He might refer to France for a proof of it. In that country, unhappily, every party in turn took advantage of any circumstance to create agita tion ; and whether Carlists, or Bonapartists, or Constitu tional, all thought they must have a movement. Within one week after the election of their present King, he believed that thousands of artisans assembled in the streets of Paris, and said, " We have our mouvement, we have shed our blood for you, but where is the benefit for us ?" But their assemblage only increased the evils of which they complained ; for if there was want of employment before, it was not likely it would be removed by agitation and excitement; and in fact it was augmented till that excitement had ceased. In the same manner, the remedy for the evils of Ireland could not be found but in the im- provement of the condition of the people, by an increased demand for labour ; and that improvement could only be gradually introduced, by furnishing the means of employ ing labour, by increased confidence, and an increased feeling of security among the people at large. Emigra tion alone, unless effected to an extent which he could not possibly anticipate, would have no such result. He believed that the course now pur sued by some of the Irish Members would prevent all these advantages. If the wish of those Hon. Gentle men was granted, he believed that the ruin of the country would be consummated ; and if it was true that we now stood on the brink of a volcano, he could foresee quite clearly that the prime agitator—the leader of the party-- and those who implicitly followed him, would be, by the necessary consequences of their own act, precipitated into its crater.—(Hear, hear.) There was one Hon. Gentle man, who had long sat in that House, but who was now unhappily not a Member of it, whose opinion be had consulted, and who had furnished him, at his desire, with some details to prove what was the real state of Ireland with respect to trade and agriculture. That Right Hon. Gentleman (he meant Sir H. Parnell) had furnished him with the paper which he now held in his hand. It was drawn up by that Right Hon. Gentleman, and appended to a petition presented by him to the Grand Jury of the Queen's County—of that county that enjoyed numerous benefits, of which that Right Hon. Gentleman had been the author, but who, because he would not truckle to the popular delusion of the day—(Hear, hear)—was, at a moment when the deepest interests to the country were at stake—(Hear hear, from Mr. O'Connell)—bad rejected him, and they found themselves with a Repealer in his stead. The Right Hon. Gentleman had furnished him with a statement, showing the relative exports and imports of the three years before 1800, and the three years before .„—.. 1826. The paper showed the rate at which the increase of national wealth had gone on. The Hon. Gent. real several extracts. The articles, by the exportation of which the agriculture of Ireland was benefited, had greatly increased in amount in the three years preceding 1826. The num ber of oxen exported in the three years before 1800 amounted to 14,105 ; in the three years before 1526 they amounted to 57,000. A similar increase had taken place in the number of sheep and swine, in bacon and ham, and in wheat and flour. In the last article, the quantity ex pored in the three years before 1800, amounted to 24,077 qrs. ; in the three years before 1826, it reached 375,781 qrs. The quantity of oats and oatmeal, in the three years before 1300, amounted to 320,474 qrs. ; in the three years before 1826, to 1,301,182 qrs. lie believed that the only practical relief to Ireland would be in nourishing these streams of wealth ; and that as time flowed on they would increase in extent, till they covered and fertilized the land ; and believing this, he could not but ask himself what he must think of those men who clamoured for that which, if granted, he was firmly con vinced would prevent all these beneficial consequences ? (Hear, hear.) Did they believe that if the Union were repealed the corn trade to this country would be any longer suffered to continue open—that the present system of the importation of Irish produce and manufactures would be tolerated—a system which was now borne at a great sacrifice by the landed interests of this country, and which was submitted to only on account of the general good? If these advantages—and they were great advantages for Ireland—were destroyed, what must follow but a disorga nization of society ; and these poor deluded creatures, who, it was now slid, were dying in ditches, would find their miserable number fearfully increased, and would come to seek a dreadful retribution on these gentlemen agitators.—(Hear, hear.) His reason for being willing t o support the proposition for coercion was to he found in those cases of violations of law put forth not by thelllinis tens, hat by those who opposed the address —(Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin had talked of absenteeism as an evil. If so, were not that Hon. Mein ber'a thousand men—he hoped they were only , r uteri i n buckram "--(A laugh)—more likely to drive capit a l an d men from the country, than to attract them to it—(Hear) —especially when it appeared that no age or sex was safe there—that at least was the assertion of those Hon. Members, not of himself; but there could be no doubt that every one of the evils they had described would fol low if the measure they recommended was adopted. That measure he should entirely disapprove, if it only occa sioned those evils which had been so ably and eloqu, n•ly described in the Statesmanlike speech of the lion. and Learned Member for Leeds, That Hon. Member had • e proved and there bad been no attempt to diaPr ° , l- ; 0 0 that its effect on this cou n t r y wou ld b e most inJ ul' o il: and even if there were no ot h er groun d --and, un bj s P e `s them were many others most imp or t an t to Ireland it se he should, far one, feel bound to resist it.—( l le ar ' ) t tb I,e Mr. CORBETT and two ot h er M em bers ros e 8 , same time. There was a call for M r . C o bb e tt, and t he ni o f is gave way. The Hon. M em b er spo k e to the 1 1 0 effect :—lf the doctrine of the Hon. Gentleman v i ;jl last spoken is good, then there is no regiedY at t bst' Ireland ; and it wou ld b e as we ll to say a t once 0 3k military dictation should take place, and Ireland he sa it' in th .t m anner . Wh y suc h a f uss a b ou t parting., ge Ireland ? If it i s goo d f or no thi ng , w h y not ie tt i ; ea r You are mo ns t rous l oa th to part w i t h it.—(Near'n'i However, the Hon. Gentleman has fallen into a tb e error. He h as f o ll owe d t h e steps o f t h e Hon. itl tb for Knaresho roug h, an d comes to us p i p i ng hot 1 19°1 0 i, lectures of Sir H. P arne ll. Th e sc h oo l mas t e r is a bt1) 00 abroad, indeed—and he has been the tutor of the trio Gentlemen on the floor. There never was a falser (sin e w in the world than that held up to us by the Hon. 31 a3 a ioe He assumes, that b ecause I re l an d h as expor t e d mote ro • the Union than before it, that therefore in the as' ne i P pa portion Ireland is more prosperous ; and the Righ t a w tre Secretary, taking the a r g umen t f rom t h e Hon. i" e for Knaresborough, availed himself of all the adios that could b e d er i ve d f rom it, an d t h e we ll- s tation ed s , well-disciplined battalion behind him echoed and cb ,: e o what he said. Wh a t i s t h e f act , t h en ? I lament " 00 0 that the Hon. M em b er (M r . C o bb ett h ere t u rned r and sa'd inquiringly--" He is not here") —I l apie o dscg say that my Hon. Colleague is not here. He ha:,,b 1, ments to lay before the House, for the truth of vin h '; sa is responsible, the truth of w hi c h no man can d cntbt 'tl, l which will show that in exactly the same proporti on the trade of Manchester in crease d, i n th e sa me Pr ° 11 : 0 have the profits of the manufacturers, the wage' st labourer and th e com f or t s o f th e l a b ourer d e crease' ' 'o which will prove th a t i n t h ese t i mes o f exces sive P r ",, rity, of which the Hon. Member for Leeds has ar i f (No)—ther e are a t l east 10,000 persons i n Lee° getting so much as 3d. a day. A bO lj Mr. MACAULAY—I never said one wor d 6 prosperity.—(Hear, hear, Oh !) Mr. COBBETT—The Hon. Member said t- s ve r had the honour of being the representative of t„dl prosperous town. He is the representative of 00 Now, I will pl e dge m y se lf t o prove t h at t h ere are 1 1 /'l,j persons in that town who do not get 3d. a day' bid Hon. Colleague will bring the proofs which he bas self collected. Thus, at th e p eace , w h en there 1 / 3 ") tolerable degree of p rosper i ty , an d t h e l a b ou ring P e s ° 1 p v were doing pretty well, the importation of cotton sv;: et , what it is now. The imp or t at i on o f cotton T vaa e n' my Hon. Colleague will go into the details, 1 shah er , the substance-6,000 bags a week. Then the P bid were well off. When it came to 11,000 bag' , is nearly double, profits fell to one half, and n's o f also ; and when it b ec a me 20,000 p er wee k, as it's nd lie will b r i ng y ou an account o f 50 ,000 perso ns, full work—of bO,OOO persons in one district ati nc at . personally examined, he himself being a great turer—will bring you an account, which he could vet oath, of 50,000 persons in that district living on l ees lid. a day, and they in full work at the same t it9 , - ,at (Hear, hear.) So the Hon. Member must not drio l t. elusions hastily, th a t b ecause tra d e h as increasedr.,lo ness has increased also. H e s h ou ld not d raw COnewi del of that sort, for if he does not remember the fac t that there was a time whe n th e m i n i ster o f the avail attended by the churchwardens and o v ers e e rs (to stunt late our charity) came from d oor t o d oor , an d ray tte i , a at was that I had no charity for Irish l an dl o rds, for I a l that they would g e t it a ft er a ll.—(H ear .) That 'lrg time when there were 22,000 tons of oats brough t d ot Galway, while from th a t same Galway we ha d s ,bri count of men dying from starvation. Well, then , notions of the Hon. Member are fallacious—they g° ';ll' do. It must be h um ili at i ng f or hi m to fi n d bitn" ( l) mistaken—but it must be still more humiliating a f , t , e ,sl' opinions have b een c h eere d w i t h suc h exultat i o n. ,f' aye," said the Ri g ht H on . Secretary, 's there's Pr"-„,cl the false cha rges aga i nst t h e U n i on— h e i s a P ra ;i; gentleman—h e k nows an d un d erstan d s w h at be ' 5 O /fs and in that way th e thi ng went on most triumPht, n a re the time. Another e rro r o f t h e H on. M em b er f o r 00 borough, which, if he had been attended to (but 0' moving from one part of th e fl oor to t h e ot h er Pre v ,0 n )1 0 that), I should not a nswer , f or t h e H l)l3 ° Gentleman completely an swere d hi mse lf. That ut satisfactory way of arguing —(A l aug h)—rubbil l tr as you go.—(A laugh.) He said that the ' l t , medy was not the repeal of the Union. I have ° k ali one word upon the repeal of the Union, for I donn t ,, o f much about it at present, and it is a rule with Wel," talk about a matter till I have had time to coosider,,,l, till I think I understand it.—(llear.) Th e Horn her said that th e re p ea l o f t h e U n i on was not the r , e o - se' but that the i n t ro d uct i on o f poor laws was..."' n fth l Well, one of the remedies. Now in th e opening, ; „ - i,te Hon. Member' s s p eec h was a comp l a i nt t h at t he 1 / 1 " . 1l ) had not mentio ne d th e di stresse d state o f t h e por ed - to country. He referred to the N o bl e L or d w ho In°% ) , j lk , address, and he said that th e H on . M em b er for „ - b had been accused of the crime of com m i ss ion, so accused Ministers of the crime of omission, a En °- 4 omission, that they did not s t a t e th e di s t re ss efti sl3 pot England, forgetting all the while that there v Oll , laws in England. We have had this distress ti' o o , often and often, but now it seems to h a v e b e en farg °. We have talked about it, and about it, „ a h.) Till e'en the believers seem to doubt it.—(A LIM/ I remember something that was said by the lion . FR P tary for Ireland that pleased Ine exceedingly tIV given a criterion of the right o f res i s t ance — a criter ian oa I sha'l examine by and bye, and it shows tha t ' t ot should not be too confident in what he says, nor too , o in pledging himself to an ythi ng . Th ere i s danger ' r iot A man should not say, " thi s i s r i g ht, an d that!sil 10 0 and I will stand by it ;" fo r I remem b er w h a t once the Right Hon. Secretary, for I admired it for th e ott ner, but not for the matter. I dissented from the of fof and I said so at the tun e , and I believe be ha' r , given me for it from that diy to this. The 1100° ° Member for Middlesex, then Member for Aberdet°' es. PI Y In a proposition for curtailing the Church • blow fl , ec ,„ te h , Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland, a great authorityta'ool, f a ,74t 4 ; 14 Lord Chancellor for Ireland, a greater, both laid it, 0 0 ei„_ 11 ) ; _ of indubitable law, that Parliament had no more righ' top et' r c Att ec and with the property of the Church than with the P ju,:le, iv _Y of any private individual. I appeal to the books nr; e ff t o 1: point ; they will bear me out, and I speak in r trial Bence of 300 or 400 gentlerntn who must re collec sec e our what I say is true. Yet the Right Honourabl e vs o R eel tao c ur Y , at tary for Ireland who made that d ec l ara ti on , wh e s r tEl t Nity,e • lt positive upon the subject, who h as b e f ore brong f r ai d ) ! 1 1 , 4 ant Bill or two, has now told us he has taken cred!! 1 1 intention, and has called upon us to arm him wit',, r a it' th e ~,t 1 4.,"e for the purpose, that he means to bring in Bills 1 " - f e tif u s i. "tolc. del actually shake the Church all to pieces. He 1189 ; thei,7 1 , 0, 0 1 out, therefore, that Parliament has a right to de al th 4t . . 4 lt e , t nal the property of the Church —that it is public and o ' l ' o 4o to r h i t l'eE tB l°4° property. Ido not charge him with anything, de b tle ot ttra sci ( Nit in this change of opinion ; I only skate the fact thalall qui t t4 ri ep v „! • found out that Church property is public pro Per c the lit tld i v e gether. An Honourable Gentleman on the back o t' all ob ,cl icre e nt t I do not know for what place he sits, observed tit if 11 0 ,7 1 4 ; i nce did not know how to distinguish between the Wel t Wil l ', wi ll Le er private property, and yet it was public propertY i t 'of ski r l , 4 i or , u , c necessary, he said, to touch it, and yet to touch 1 , o ft, th at t 7 l 'tt be spoliation. Ido not call taking that which th e''; mi right t a t t o nodo t k a p k ie e tr , hfrao s p p ms ol o i d a no t ee i m , an a t n o d gi t v h ee i q t u to est a io n n ot i t a: l4 , 9 s . 0 441 to i " : 4 1 i t t h e ::: : ; t p - to m . liament a riAlit to deal with Church property a' - ,;b01 1 „i t jtie i ," to g rh --c or has it not? It did once, I know, deal with the - 3 fu lr eatp a i w itded a kn y vvetti T ii;oae a fitrl v ueßi i tt s ,t t edwi o sf c eoh k nnraddot and a nd hs Woburnit not Abbe a y r g t t g i t v o e d t o h e i ' t n ,sotiri t, ! lo t i t l tt , i l t lv 4 s t r ed I do not here speak of Dean and Chapter propel -1 P : 4 4 , 14). than er r • a h e stand on a different gre u !', Or - Peet' 4 4 I speak of Church property generally. It is g el. ; / 1 , , t0 5 1 , 1 1° 43 that there is no spoliation in the case. S°l- eer t4 ,,s' r - c 4 to w t ?is s T p th o ha l e i t a l t He io no n gntol i ui f ,raa y nb o dl u e w o ß n ha l e y rroen g ae o re, t r n e t i v.ooe bd ioeit} , for Oxford, was quite right for his purpose in talY,ll4 Peers 4 t o • t P ) Parliament had no right to meddle with it a t 01 1,itt ia t 'e that it was spoliation ; but on this point, althnng, eV, p 04; t th s er ; other, lam able to cope with the Hon. Ilarnn e ` t ' e e; th e insist, arid will prove, that it is the nation's s°d roll N1,1'01:444 —.that we have a right to do with it as we like': r ye Pr Pre; c 4 t tl, tot we are bound to do with it as may be best for tin° otl i t root t i v ati : b ao present. A great deal depends upon the tern' "P oo th e 4 Stigmatise it with the name of spoliation, an d I rc pb t a say ~„'t a , 1 1 , 1 much ; but I defy the most impudent of m ankio a u ree r try tip oo ''''y h 4, ‘ , " forward anything more impudent in his whole.' w bstlil ro t i, y 'lle, o ; of to say this—Do what you will with it—make i t _ .t s ve ) hie a _ t :tv at will, public or private, clerical or unclerical, b o " eat lee,/ x ibe leave it all still in the families it belongs to. , n e o i sbs o i tit ° b oa ': should, however, be told a tale they perhaps ° v e ri est, the co t told before (for we come here to speak in plain, 11 ,1' Els e , ,: h ett y, et iess to lard one another with flattery, whether big" t , 0 ,, is f g ) "reer i , that nothing is clearer than that Church proPe! os o . , slid 1 , 0 4 oa tt ath, lie property, and nothing is dealer than that Moore d i hi„' to r i i 3o tl by the aristocracy of the kin g dom. Not a . sty ? gh l families hold all the Church prop e rty of Ice la° ;I, bay, h _wh, ask, whether it is the interest of the gentletoo:3t 0 1 1 / live b e e t a ilh land to have their estates mulcted to the O le P ! h o 1et, 3 4 e of t e a 4 elit. eel° millions sterling, according to the calculation _ s t0 . , 0 • 1 bu t ber for Middlesex, to maintain an army of soldieo,', pel the payment of tithes to forty families ? P