The Sun. — London, England, 1830-06-15 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS-(LAST NIGHT.) Sir A. GRANT and others from the Commons brought up several private Bills. The Clerk of the Journals of the House of Com mons presented papers connected with the case of Sir Jonah Barrington. The Marquis bf LONDONDERRY presented a petition from Thomas Buxton against Hickson's Marriage Annulling Bill. The Noble Lord described the case of the petitioner as one of the greatest hardship. The petitioner was the husband of the lady who was called Miss Hickson in the Bill, and be must say he thought she might have been called by her proper name of Mrs. Buxton. This case had been described as one of conspiracy and abduc tion; but in point of fact, it was merely the case of mining away with an heiress; and he wished, there fore, that the petition had been put into the hands of the Noble Earl (Westmoreland), late Privy Seal, -or of the Noble and Learned Earl (Elden) who had so long presided on the Woolsack—(A laugh)— with so much credit to himself and advantage to the country; for they would be more competent to do justice to it, and would enter into the feelings of the petitioner.—(Laughter.) The Bishop of LONDON said, that the party alluded to had been convicted of conspiracy at the Lancaster Assizes, and that the marriage from which it was sought to relieve the lady was irregularly and illegally solemnized. To have called that lady Mrs. Buxton would have been to concede the whole point at issue. The Earl of gLDON said, that the verdict of a jury ought not to deter their Lordships from looking into the case. He thanked the Noble Marquis for the compliment he had been pleased to pay to him; and with respect to the matter to which the Noble Marquis had alluded, he would only observe that be believed the project of his Noble Friend , (t he Earl of Westmoreland,) the late Privy Seal, had turned out more beneficial than his, (the Earl of Eldon's) —(A laugh.)—The petition was ordered to lie on the table. The Marquis of BUTE presented a petition, praying for the repeal of the duty on coals carried coastways.—Referred to the Committee on the coal trade. Lord DYNEVOR presented a petition against certain parts of the Welsh Judicature Bill. Earl CAWDOR presented a petition from the county of Pembroke, praying that some arrangement might take place, by which the benefits of the Eng lish administration of justice, by the superior judges, might be imparted to Wales; but praying, also, that this might be effected without disarranging the pre sent division of counties and assize towns. The Noble Lord heartily concurred in the first part of the prayer, but did not see how the latter could be complied with. The Earl of RADNOR presented a petition from the county of Cornwall, complaining of distress, and praying for Parliamentary reform. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE presented a petition from Loughborough against the East•lndia monopoly.—Referred to the Committee on the East India Charter. The Duke of RICHMOND (in the absence of the Bishop of Chichester) presented a petition from Chichester, praying that another Session might not pass over without some measure for the abolition of Negro Slavery. GALWAY FRANCHISE BILL. Earl GREY presented two petitions in favour of this Bill ; the one was signed by the Grand Jury of the county of Galway, assembled at the Spring Assizes in 1830 ; the other by 14 Justices of the Peace, by 12 of the Common Council, and by 52 of the resident Freemen of the city of Galway. There were only 10 resident freeholders who had not signed this petition. He fully concurred in the prayer of the petitions, and would now, if there was no objection, move the second reading of the Bill. Lord HOLLAND had a similar petition to pre sent leom a parish in the county of Galway. He heartily concurred in the prayer. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE had been in trusted with a petition to the same effect from the Grand Jury of the city of Galway; but, not know ing that tne Noble Earl would move the second reading of the Bill that day, he had not brought it down with hint. The Duke of WELLINGTON would rather the second reading of the Bill were fixed for another day. Earl GREY said he should move, on Thursday, that the Bill be read a second time.—Lords to be summoned. such a state of things. He confessed, that, looking at the entire transaction, as far as he was acquainted with it, he did not think that Austria and Prussia had been, or were now, sincerely co-operating with the other Powers, or that they heartily approved of the measures adopted by them. The Noble Earl had referred him to a letter from Baron Miltitz, the Prussian Minister at Constantinople, showing that Prussia had complied with the treaty. In answer to this he (Lord Londonderry) took leave to refer the Noble Earl to the recorded sentiments of our own ambassadors on the subject. It would be found on a reference to those authorities, that the friendly disposition of Prussia was not so apparent. After a considerable time spent in debating the subject, the Noble Earl got up and said that on his official responsibility he took it upon himself to say that it would be prejudicial to the public service to pro duce certain papers which were demanded. Had the Noble Earl stated this at the outset, be (Lord Lon donderry) should have felt disposed to treat the declaration with every respect, and perhaps their Lordships might have been spared the remarks that he, among others, had thought it necessary to make. Certainly he did not wish to prejudice the public service,by any act or word of his. He now wished to ask the Noble Earl whether he had any objection to lay before the House a copy of Sir E. Codrington's letter, addressed to the Se cretary of the Lord High Admiral, dated 26th of January, 1828, and enclosing the copy of a letter to Sir H. Wellesley, bearing date 10th of October, 1827 ? It was his intention to move for the pro duction of this document if the Noble Earl saw no objection to the adoption of such a course. His object in doing so was to ascertain whether Austria and Prussia, so long ago as previously to the battle of Navarin, had or had not approved of the course adopted by the other Powers. With a view to de termine this, he called on the Noble Earl to produce papers which he (Lord Londonderry) conceived would make out his case, and confirm the statements he had made. The Earl of ABERDEEN observed, that if the Noble Marquis had previously communicated to him, as it was usual to do in courtesy, the particulars of his motion, he (the Earl of Aberdeen) would have been able to give the Noble Lord an answer at once : but at present he was unable to say what were the contents of the paper required, and therefore could not state whether or not any objection existed as to its production. On a former occasion the Noble Lord had read an extract from a paper upon the table with reference to the conduct of Austria and Prussia, and at the same time desired further evi dence to enable him to see whether they bad com plied with the treaty. He (the Earl of Aberdeen) showed, by the documents upon the table, that the treaty had been complied with; when a Noble Baron opposite rose, and said, there was a disagreement between the Powers. He (the Earl of Aberdeen) had certainly declared, that the production of the papers asked for by the Noble Lord would be at tended with prejudice to the public service, and upon that ground had refused to comply with the motion. Lord HOLLAND understood the Noble Mar quis to mean, that although the official assurances of Austria might give rise to an idea that she cor dially concurred in the course adopted - with respect to Greece, he (Lord Londonderry) bad reason to think other papers were withheld which, if pro duced, would give a different colour to her conduct. The Noble Marquis said as yet we had only an im perfect statement of these transactions, and, in order to form a correct judgment, we should have all the acts and proceedings of the Powers in question. This was the original line of argument which had been taken tip when the matter was first broached. Since then he thought it would appear, on a narrow examination of the published documents, that there were good grounds to conclude from the papers themselves, that the conduct of Austria had not been satisfactory. In a despatch annexed to the protocol of the 15th of June, 1828, and addressed by Count Nesselrode to Prince Lieven, was this expression—" Austria herself, by overtures of which I will treat in a separate despatch, manifests a visible tendency to draw nearer to the Courts which have undertaken to restore peace to Greece, and expresses no intention of supporting Turkey." It appeared from this that Austria, in the opinion of the writer, was not originally disposed to draw very near to the other Courts in the matter; and it would also seem from the phrase, " expresses no in tention of supporting Turkey," that she had once e n tertained such a design. That placed what were called the " assurances" of Austria in a different light with respect to credibility, and we ought not to have those assurances, if documents were with held which might show them to be insincere. Again, in another despatch from Count Nesselrode to Prince Lieven, it was stated, " We have already had an opportunity of declaring, that if our Allies should judge the independence of Greece necessary, we shall not object to it." He saw the great objec tion to producing the memorandum here referred to. He had maintained no decided opinions as to the conduct of Austria; but when he heard the Noble Marquis state that Austria differed from the other Powers with respect to Greece, he must admit he did think that there existed some suspicion on the subject of the degree of conformity between the acts and " assurances" of that Power. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY—With re spect to what the Noble Earl said as to placing the motion in his hands previously to making it, he (Lord Londonderry) did not see much advantage to himself in that course, which, however, he had adopted only the other day, when the Noble Earl first told him that he would give the papers required, but two days afterwards declared that lie would not. —(Laughter, and cries of " Order.") The Earl of ABERDEEN—The Noble Mar quis entirely misunderstood what had occurred. He aAsured the Noble Marquis that be was quite mis taken ; there was no promise to produce the pa pers ; he (Lord Aberdeen) merely said that he should take two days to consider whether or not it would be proper to comply with the request of the Noble Marquis. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said as there appeared to.k; a misunderstanding with respect to those ~papers, he should not press the remark w t. -rich he hadfounded on what he conceived to have - 'been the Nobe Earl's conduct. With respect to the letter of laron Miltitz, it was notorious that he was strongly a the interests of Turkey. Was no communication made at Constantinople with respect to Prussian !o-operation ? He felt satisfied that the subject o Austrian and Prussian cc-operation did not appea fairly on the face of the papers before the House. .f the Noble Earl consented to pro duce the documents required—of a motion for which he (Lord Lordonderry) should give notice—Noble Lords would le satisfied; but if the Noble Earl re fused to prodtce them, it was to be,hoped he would offer a suffici?.nt reason fur doing so. One thing was clear—nernely, that if those two great Powers, Austria and Prussia, were not cordially co-operating in the measures that had been taken, such a state of things would probably be a germ of future dif ferences of which no man here could say what would be the result. It was the great wish of a late-la mented relative of his to keep all the great Powers of Europe united in a common bond, and to cause them to concur in one sentiment as to the principal transactions in which they were interested; but it was to be regretted that they were now diverging from that point, and it must be admitted that the con sequences were likely to be any thing rather than for tunate. He might not take the same view of thecase as the Noble Baron opposite who had supported his motion,—a support for which he was nevertheless grateful. Indeed, he believed he differed from the Noble Baron altogether. The Noble Baron, he knew, was a Greek, and he (Lord Londonderry) confessed himself a Turk, upan this question.— (Laughter.) In that respect, then, he differed from the Noble Lord. He thought the negotiations were not such as ought to have been carried on, Having placed his motion in the Noble Earl's hands, he ex pected the Noble Earl to inform him, as soon as he conveniently could, whether or not he would furnish documents which he (Lord Londonderry) main tained would make out his case. (Here the conversation dropped.) Lord Mountsandford's Estate Bill was read a third time, and passed. ABOLITION OF FEES' BILL. On the motion for going into Committee on this Bill, The Earl of DARNLEY said, he should pro pose in the Committee the introduction of a cause, exempting officers of the army (particularly inferior officers, who could ill afford the expense) from fees for the renewal of their commissions on the demise of the Crown. The LORD CHANCELLOR said, the Bill having come up from the Commons, he had thought it his duty to alter some of the clauses and add substantive clauses of his own. He recommended their Lordships to go into Committee pro forma, the alterations could then be introduced, printed, and become properly known and understood. He had no objection to the Noble Earl's clause. He took this opportunity to state, that his Noble Friend (the Lord President of the Council) had abandoned all advantage to be derived from the renewal of ap pointments to public offices. He had authority to say the same thing with respect to the Lord Privy Seal : and perhaps it was scarcely necessary to add, that he (the Lord Chancellor) readily relinquished any claims of this nature that he possessed. He thought it his duty to protect individuals who had distinct duties to perform, and who held renewal offices : he had also introduced a clause protecting persons at present enjoying vested interests in fees by virtue of their offices, but which clause did not' extend to individuals hereafter to be appointed. The House having gone into a Committee on the Bill, the Lord Chancellor's amendments were agreed to. On the Earl of Darnley's clause exempting officers in the army under the rank of Captain (as we understood) from the payment of fees for the re newal of their commissions, The Duke of WELLINGTON said, the truth of the matter was, that those fees were at present very trifling : exclusive of stamp duties, there was nothing but the expence of making out the com missions. The Earl of DARNLEY inquired what was the amount of that expence ? The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that any Noble Lord accustomed to see commissions must know that the expence of making them out could scarcely exceed a few shillings. The clause was then agreed to. The House resumed, when the amendments were reported, and the Bill, with amendments, ordered to be printed. The Irish Bogs' Drainage Bill went through a Committee.—Bill, with amendments, reported, and ordered to be printed. On the motion of the Marquis of LANSDOWNE, a message to the Commons was agreed to, for copies of the report and appendix of the Select Committee appointed in 1824, to take into consideration the criminal law of England. FORGERY. Petitions, praying that the punishment of death for forgery might be abolished, were presented from Farnham, by Lord Dame ; from Gainsborough, by Viscount GODERICH ; from the local directors and others of the bank at Galway, by the Marquis of CLANEICARDE; and from the local directors and others of the bank at Armagh, by the Earl of DARNLEY. The Earl of DARNLEY presented a petition from trustees of certain e aritable institutions in Dublin end its ne i g hbourhood, complaining of the amou nt of taxation to which funds destined for charitable purposes are subjected by stamp duties. The Earl of DARNLLY presented a petition from the county of Wexford against the Sub-letting and Vestry Acts. GREECE. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, after wimt had passed in the House on the subject of Greece on a former evening, he hoped he should stand excused in the opinion of their Lordships if he ventured to ask the Noble Earl (Aberdeen) one or two questions in reference to it, particularly as he should do so with a view to set the House and the country right with respect to the true state of the facts of the case. He wished to put his ques tions in the fairest possible spirit. It might be dis tressing to the Noble Earl to hear it observed, that particular parts of the papers upon Greece were garbled or interpolated ; but, for his own part, be was not actuated by a bad sp irit in his re matks, and re should not hesitate to do hi s dut y . In .discharging, 'ee he did not wish to act fact iousl y , or ' m end that, oppose his Majesty's servants ; but he i c had a ri as an independent Peer of V.H l e ian dlinformation on a to obtain every possiblel in the published accounts i subject so nlpop ap6ere were points that appeared of the . neForrtf - lum without the production of further inexphrtle thought he had a right (and he trusted pat their Lordship would be of the same opinion) to ask for a satisfactory explanation on these points. A little time back we found Government and the :verripent press running down persons who were oppnceive, oeu to them ; and we now found what was co to . be . the Government press attempting to run down . individuals who held high and illus trious situations--duals Leopold himself, for iastance,—because they dial their duty, in endea vouring to inquire into and understand the papers co nnected with those negotiations, and with a sub ject so intricate and full of contradictions (on the showing of the published documents) that with out further papers and further explanations, it was Impossible for any one to comprehend it. Day after day he (Lord Londonderry), and other Noble Lords, had demanded further explanations from the Noble Earl, and in doing so had justly complained of exTarte 4statements of the trans actions having been made public, and of garbled 044 ,, Q u9t5.-0!• the'negotiations, which rendered it im ipoattq, with our present information, to arrive at thrillelos4 truth and real history of these momentous 4anaactions, was of opinion, that during the pogri!ss of these important transactions, Austria an d russia were inimical to the settlement desired by the other Towel s, and had looked upon the negoti ations with a sinister eye. This was a great point an reference to the tranquillity of Europe, and the i4r ipus differoneeti cud wars that might grow out of SIR JONAH BARRINGTON. The order of the day having been read for hear ing counsel and witnesses in support of the charges brought against Sir Jonah Barrington, Judge of the High Court of Admiralty in Ireland, The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (with whom was the Solicitor• General) briefly recapitulated the allega tions advanced against Sir Jonah, as they appeared in the report of the Select Committee of the House of Commons, where he is charged with illegally ap propriating to his own use certain sums of money arising out of two adjudications in his Court— namely, in the cases of the ship Nancy and the ship Redstrand. The Learned Gentleman called, in support of the case, Mr. David Pineau, registrar of the High Court of Admiralty in Ireland, which he had filled under Sir Jonah. After proceeding with his exa mination for some time, the Learned Gentleman found that he was only in possession of copies of certain letters, the originals of which were, he be lieved, in the custody of Sir Jonah, which originals it was necessary to put in. He therefore intimated to their Lordships that it would be proper to post pone the case. Sir Jonah Barrington, on being interrogated, stated that he had lost many of his papers, and those which he still possessed were at present in Paris. He would, however, write for them with out delay. The further proceeding was then postponed sine die; and, at a Quarter after Nine, the I louse adjourned HOUSE OF COMMONS-(LAST NIGHT.) The Marquis of CHANDOS presented a petition from merchants and planters residing at Glasgow, praying for a reduction of the duties on colonial produce. Lord MILTON presented a similar petition from the merchants of Leeds, and they also prayed for an equalization of duties on East and West India sugars. Lord MILTON presented a petition from the in habitants of Huddersfield and its vicinity, praying for the abolition of negro slavery. Lord A. HILL presented a petition from the freeholders of the county of Down, against any in crease of taxation in Ireland. Lord CASTLEREAGH supported the prayer of the petition. Lord A. HILL presented a petition from the churchwardens and Protestant inhabitants of the parish of St. Patrick, in the county Down, against the Vestry Act. Mr. FERGUSSON moved for returns showing the state of business in die Court of Session, of each term since the year 1826.—Ordered. Lord MOUNTCHARLES presented a petition from the freeholders of the county of Donegal, against the introduction of the poor laws into Ireland. The NOBLE LORD also presented a petition from the landed proprietors of the same county, against any increase of duty on Irish spirits. General HART supported the prayer of the petition. General HART presented a similar petition from another place, the name of which did not reach us. The petitioners also prayed against any increase of the stamp duties. General ARCIIDALL and Mr. O'CONNELL sup ported the prayer of the petition. %Ir. A. CAMPBELL presented a petition from the Directors of the Chamber of Commerce at Glasgow, against the Northern Road Bill. Lord STANLEY presented a petition from the President and Vice-President of the Chamber of Commerce, and also from the boroughreeve and in habitants of Manchester, against the Half-pay Ap prentices' Bill. Mr. PENDARVIS presented a petition from the county of Corn wall, praying for a•refortn ofParliamenr. Sir R. VYVYAN bore testimony to the great respectability of the parties from whom this petition proceeded, but he could not agree with them that the distresses of the country were caused by a want of reform in that House. A- great cause of them was to be found in the immense amount of the national debt, arising from the expenses of the late war. Lord LOWTHER presented a petition from Stevenage, against the Northern Road Bill. The Noble Lord took that opportunity of stating that his name had been introduced into the Bill without his consent or knowledg e , and that when the Bill came on for discussion, he should move to have his name struck out. Lord MORPETH, understanding that it would be convenient to many Hoe. Members, postponed the further consideration of the report of the Northern Roads Bill to Thursday. Mr. LAWLEY presented a petition from the Directors of the Chamber of Commerce at Birming ham, praying for the equalization of the duties on East and 'West India sugars. Lord LOWTHER brought up the report of the Dean Forest Bill, which was read, and ordered to be taken into further consideration on• Thursday, and the Bill to be printed. The adjourned debate on the London, and 13ir- mingham Junction Canal Bill was further postponed to the 24th instant. Lord NUGENT postponed the presentation of the petition relating to the imposition of oaths to Thursday. Mr.HUME wished to know from the Hon. Mem ber opposite (Mr. Hyde Villiers) whether he in tended to bring forward his motion, which stood for to-morrow, on the subject of commercial relations wiih Portugal. He (Mr. Hume) had two motions to bring forward, and of course would be guided by the course the Hon. Member might take. There was also a motion on the Corn Laws standing for that evening, but he believed if the other motions came on, it would probably be too late for its dis- cussion. Mr. HYDE VILLIERS said, that he had put off his motion twice before, but be was determined to bring it on to-morrow. Mr. FIUME expressed his intention of bringing on his motion for withdrawing the settlement at Sierra Leone. Mr. WILMOT HORTON presented a petition from Great Wickstead, in the county of Leicester, in favour of the principle of emigration as a relief to the poor. We understood the Right Hon. Gentle. men to say, that he would defer his motion on this subject to next Session. Mr. SLANEY postponed the Poor-rates An nuities' Bill to Friday, and the Poor-laws' Amend ment Bill from Wednesday to Monday next. WAYS AND MEANS.—SUGAR DUTIES. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the Order of the Day for the House resolving itself into a Committee of Ways and Means. Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL wished to know from the Right Hon. Gentleman in what or der the public business would come on that evening. It would be a great convenience to many Hon. Members to know in particular whether the Sale of Beer Bill would be brought on that evening. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he should like to bring it on that evening, if possible; for, if it were not brought on to-night, it would have little chance of being discussed to morrow, as it was probable that the discussion on the Chancery Bill would occupy much time—if time admitted of its being brought forward at all, after the motions which stood for to-morrow. Mr. FERGUSSON thought it was very impro bable that the Bill could be brought forward to morrow, after the notices. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, then it would be better to have it understood that it could not be brought on to-night. Mr. R. GORDON wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman whether there was any truth in the re port that it was the intention of Ministers to aban don the Bill. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, there certainly was no truth in any such re port ; Ministers were firm in the intention of pro ceeding with the Bill. Sir E. KNATCHBULL said, then it may be taken for granted that the Bill would not come on before Thursday. On the question that the Speaker do leave the Chair, The Marquis of CHANDOS said, he wished to take that opportunity of calling the attention of the House to the situation of the West India planters, in consequence of the high rate of West India produce. These, particularly rum and sugar, were so heavily taxed, that it was not possible for the persons whose capital was embarked in them to bear up against it any longer. They had borne their heavy burdens for a long time without murmuring, but they were now reduced to that state that they were obliged earnesly to solicit relief from Parliament. They had to contend against a heavy war duty of 275. per cwt., which, with the dull market for their produce, brought them to a state in which they could obtain no return on their eapital, but, on the contrary, they were daily enduring great losses. When it was con sidered that out of the price they now received for their sugars, the West India planters bad to pay an immense outlay, it would be admLted that it was impossible they could continue to bear up against the pressure upon them. This situation was the more oppressive, as there could be no doubt that a reduction of the duty would not occasion any dimi nution of revenue, as it was seen that when a reduc tion of duty took place on colonial coffee, the con sumption had very materially increased, as was proved by the returns before the House. The same result would no doubt be found with respect to other articles. As one instance amongst many that might be cited of the distressed condition of the West India planters, he would mention, that some of them who had sent their children to school were obliged to bring them home, not being able to defray the expence any longer. The Noble Lord concluded with moving the following resolution as an amend ment :—" That the duty of 275. per hundred weight on the colonial sugars, which has been an nually voted for several years past, is incon sis te nt with a due regard to West India property, and in jurious to the general interests of the public." Mr. MARRYAT seconded the motion, and con tended that the West India planters were at present suffering under such a depression as to render Le gislative relief a matter of absolute necessity, if the House professed to have a due regard for the legiti mate interests of the body. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that he entertained, in common with the Noble Lord and the Hon. Gentleman, a warm and un affected sympathy in the sufferings of the class alluded to; but he could not lose sight of the con sideration, that if they consented to make a large reduction, as was now recommended, they must be also prepared to supply the consequent defalcation in the revenue, in order that the national resources might not suffer by the change. It ought to be re membered that the House had very recently deter mined to afford relief in another quarter; and by so doing, had pressed reduction to the utmost limits cf which it was susceptible, consistently with the exigencies of the State. Many had even gone so far as to say that they had acted on the principle of reduction to a greater extent than prudence would have permitted. He was far from being insensible to the difficulties under which the planters laboured, and felt anxious to afford them every possible relief; but be was still more desirous to maintain the na tional credit and preserve unimpaired the resources of the empire, without which they could not do justice to the claims of any interest whatsoever. — As the Noble Lord bad moved his resolution as an amendment, he, under the circumstance., had no alternative but to adhere to his original motion. If, however, the Noble Lord had permitted the House to go first into a Committee, he would have reason to be satisfied that the proposition which lie in tended to submit was calculated to afford great im mediate relief to the West Indian body, without prejudice to the resources of the country. Where the average price of sugar was 30s. per hundred weight, he should propose a gradual scale of reduc tion from the quality at ls. above the average down to the lowest classes of sugar in the British market. The reduction on the inferior qualities would amount to 75., whilst the reduction on thut at Is. above the average would not exceed Is. Gd., leaving an inter mediate scale between the extremes of 7s. arid ls. Gd., according to the quaiity of the sugar.— Such a reduction was best calculated to afford relief to these planters who most needed it, and also to the humbler classes of the public who were least able to purchase this article of consumption. He was moreover prepared to show that the probability of loss to the Exchequer was in certain respects limited, and to explain the mode by which the ex pectant deficiency might be made up. It was not necessary to do more then, than give the foregoing brief outline of the proposed measure; but he thought he had said sufficient to show that Govern ment was neither forgetful of the distress of the planters, nor unmindful of the interests of the com munity. Mr. HUME inquired whether it was the Right Hon. Gentleman's intention to apply the graduated scale which be had mentioned to sugars coining from the East Indies ? To which The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied, that he should defer further explanation until the House was in Committee. Mr. BARING hoped that the Noble Lord would be induced to withdraw his motion until after the promised statement should have been given in the Committee. The Marquis of CIIANDOS replied, that he should persevere in the motion. Mr. HUSKISSON said, he concurred with the Noble Lord in thinking that the duties in question might be considerably decreased without creating any material diminution in the revenue; but when a Minister had Stated that he had a proposition to make, he thought it would be but fair to wait till he should have communicated his plans, when it would be in the power of the Noble Lord, or any other gentleman, to move reductions. in Committee. (Hear.) —He was unwilling to vote against the re solution, but he wished to hear what Government had to propose before he was called on to consent to it. In his judgment, the pressure of which the planters complained was partly attributable to causes which it was not for the Legislature to control; but he hoped, at the same time, that they would give relief to the utmost extent that was in their power. Sir A. GRANT recommended the Noble Lord to withdraw his resolution, as it was only fair to hear the expected proposition of Government before they came to a dec►s►on ; more particularly because it was obvious that the principle on which the propo sition would be founded was likely to afford relief, as well to those amongst the planters who were suffering peculiar distress, as to the lower classes of the British public who dealt only in the coarser sugars. It would therefore more completely answer the proposed end than any general reduction what ever. Whether it would give sufficient relief was a question yet to be proved. Mr. K. DOUGLAS thought that the Noble Lord would not be discharging his duty to the par ties with whom he was connected, if he did not persist in bringing forward his proposition, and said he should vote with him in the event of dividing the House. 11Ir. W. TAYLOR expressed himself to the same effect. Mr. R. GRANT said, that although he had for merly given notice of a motion on the subject of reduction, he could not refrain from observing that it was quite unusual and unparliamentary to perse vere, as the Noble Lord seemed to intend doing, after a Minister had acknowledged the same princi ple, and had desired to be allowed to explain his own proposition, which, so far as it went, was a confir mation of that made by the Noble Lord. They therefore should not prejudge the question, but re serve their opinion till the proposition, of which they had heard only the outline, should be developed. He did not profess to know more particularly what that proposition might be, and he rather apprehended that it did not go to the extent that he desired; for no allusion to East Indian sugars had hitherto been made, nor had it been stated whether sugars of all kinds were to he admitted without duty or draw backs, but he was willing to reserve his opinion till he was'more thoroughly informed as to the intentions of Government. Mr. MANNING said he should support the mo tion of the Noble Lord. The House having divided, the numbers ap peared— For the original motion 102 Fur the amendment 23 Majority,. The House then resolved itself into a Committee of Supply ; Sir A. GRANT in the Chair. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought it adviseable to make a statement to the Committee on the subject of the Sugar Duties. He had been long made sensible of the unfortunate situation of the West India Proprietors. The motion of the Noble Lord, which he had felt it necessary to resist, was for such a reduction of duty as he could not consent to without risking such a portion of the Revenue as might endanger the national credit. He felt it, therefore, impossible to accede to the motion of his Noble Friend. The proposition he should have to propose was much more limited. After making such very large re ductions in the Revenue as had lately been made— such a very large reduction of taxation, that it was thought by some persons that he had gone a great deal too far—he could not hazard any very great further reduction without danger. That reduction had been made to_ give relief to a very suffering class of persons. He was well aware, that by re ducing the duty on sugar there would be great additional consumption; and he meant to propose such a reduction as he thought best calculated to give relief to the grower of sugar, and promote its consumption, without injuring the revenue. The estates which produced sugars of the finest quality were, he was informed, not in such a bad situation as those which produced the coarse sugars. He had re ceived from an Hon. Friend of his, whose knowledge on this subject was both extensive and accurate, the particulars of two estates of the same extent, and cultivated by the same number of negroes ; but one produced the finer kinds of sugar, and the other the coarser. If the House would allow him, he would state in detail the particulars of these two estates. Both estates produced 150 hogsheads each. In the first case, the estate which produced the fine sugar, the 150 hogsheads sold for 665. per cwt. and the gross sum they fetched was 6,4381. ; the rum was sold for 4,1311.; the total gross produce selling for 10,5691. The first charge on it was the duty to the Crown, which, on the sugar, was 2,630/., and on the ruin 3,3401. The additional charge the proprie tor bad to pay, such as insurance, freight, commis sion, &c. amounted to 1,1601. The charges in the island, called colonial charges, amounted to 9001. The negro clothing and food and other expences amounted to 6001., making together a sum of 1,500/. The whole charges on the 150 hogsheads left the proprietor a profit of 1,9391. In the second estate to which he wished to call the attention of the House, the sugars produced were all of inferior qua lities, and produced on an average about 465. a hun dred weight. This estate produced 150 hogsheads of sugar yearly, and the whole income derived from it produced to the proprietor was something short of 100/. yearly. The Government, although unable to afford that general relief which the situation of the great body of the West Indians demanded, con sidered, however, that they had here an ample field in which they might attempt to give some partial relief without affecting the interests of any others who might be entitled to claim from them equal con siderations. The way in which he had intended to effect it was this :—On every hundred weight of sugar a duty of 275. had hitherto been collected, no matter of what quality the sugar might be composed. Undoubtedly this method of taking the duty presented great advantages as regarded the collection of the revenue, or the prevention of any fraud by substituting one sugar for another; arid he was only induced to depart from the system which prevailed by an anxiety to afford the West India interest such a temporary relief as would . form an advantage to them at present, and be a guide to the Government afterwards for the pro secution, with leas risk and more certainty, of a fair and satisfactory result in any further reduction of the duty which they might think proper to propose. The measure, therefore, which lie was about to pro pose would be both temporary and experimental. It was well known; to many of the gentlemen around him that the prices of sugars in London were taken upon the average of each weekly sole in the London market. He proposed, then, that when the average price is 305., that then there be paid on all sugars that do not exceed that price by Is., a duty of Is. Gil. less than the 275., or, in other words, a duty of 11. 55. Gd. That on sugar of less value than 30s. by 3s. there be paid a duty of 11.45. 6d. That on sugars of less value than 30s. by 43. there shall be paid a duty of 11.25. Gd.; and that when the sugars were of less value than 305. b y then there shall be a duty of 11., making the d uty on a sugar which cost 255. only 205., and a reduction on the lowest price of coarse sugar to the extent of 7s. per hundred. If he was told that this plan presented so many difficulties as to render it likely the attempt to carry k into effect would pro ' duce a loss to the revenue, his answer was, that although he might calculate upon some artifice being used to produce a depression in the price of sugars, yet he did not apprehend it would be such as to cause any material loss to the revenue. With re-. gard to the selection of the low-priced sugars foe the purpose of a reduction of the duty, he might 0b... serve, that as the East India sugar comes into ims mediate competition with the higher-priced West India sugars, so long as that competition continued it would not be necessary to adopt any measures for producing a reduction in their price. Those sugars on which a reduction, of 7s. of duty would be made were those which came most into consumption among the great body of the people : and ha fully expected that this reduction of 7s. would make an increase in that consumption of at least one-third, which in crease would compensate in some measure for the loss of the duty. It would also enable them to ascertain, by way of experiment, how far the reduc tion of duties on an article of extensive consumption among the lower classes, and of which they had en joyed till now the means of obtaining but a very , moderate supply, might enable them to make a still further reduction without any great injury to the revenue. The principle of lowering duties, and thereby increasing the revenue by adding to the s consumption, was one which he was at all times anxious to see carried into effect, wherever it could be done without permanent injury to the revenue of the country. It was necessary, however, to a dmit at once, that although he calculated on an increased consumption producing some increase of duty, yet, as the whole of the duty thus given up amounted to 350,0001. or 400,0001., and he could not calculate on more than one-half of that being returned, there was still a deficiency of 200,000/. to be made good. As that sum, therefore, must be taken from other sources to make up the estimated amount of the year's revenue, he thought he should be dealing more fairly with the House, to state now the method by which he proposed to make good the deficiency. Relying on the increased consumption producing one-half, he thought the remainder could be found in some modification of those duties which he had announced as his intention at the commencement of the Session to impose on English, Scotch, and Irish spirits. It would be recollected that he ' stated the new duty to be ls. on English spirite• and 2d. on Scotch and Irish. Since that time, how ever, the Hon. Member for Carlisle had sug gested that the great difference between Scotch and English spirits created by this duty would tend much to increase smuggling. He (the Chancellor of the Ex" chequer) confessed that this objection had a great effect on his mind; and subsequent inquiries had sa' tisfied him that the method of doing justice to all parties would be to impose a duty of 6d. a gallon on Scotch and Irish spirits, and at the same time to put a duty of 6d. also on English spirits, and also on rum, so as to place the whole of the Colonial and British spirits on the same footing. From this alters' tion he confidently calculated upon an additional re' venue of 200,0001. He had only to state now that his Right Hon. Friend who was at the head of the Board of Trade would in a short time state what he, proposed to do with respect to that other branch o f the subject which was connected with the refining of sugar, the Act for regulating which expired at the end of the present Session. On the question that the Resolutions be read, Mr. C. GRANT expressed a hope that the Chan' cellor of the Exchequer would not push forward the discussion on such important Resolutions as these, without sufficient time being allowed for their con. sideration. It would be better, he thought, to print the Resolutions, and fix some day for the debate to be taken on them. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that in the ordinary course the Resolution s would be printed immediately after they had bee n reported to the Howe. He had no objection t° comply with his Right Hon. Friend's request; 1 0 1 4 the difficulty he felt was one of time, because t b d Sugar Duties Act expired on the sth July next, 0 ° / he was anxious to get through some of the preps° . tory stages of the alterative measures as soon as pos . ' sible. He thought the House might permit him to report the Resolutions; and when they w er e printed, to take the discussion on a future day. Mr. BERNAL begged the Right Hon. Gentle man to recollect that the plan contained in these Resolutions came by surprise on the House, and WO perfectly novel to almost all the Members. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUE /1,-1 repeated his willingness to allow all time for th e proper examination of the Resolutions; but h e thought that could be done quite as well if the Be' solutions were now passed through the Committee' Mr. HUSKISSON said it was quite impassible that the Committee could understand the nature 0 these intricate Resolutions without much considers tion. The ascending and descending scale of dutiel was peculiarly intricate, and he thought it would be much better to have them printed, and adjourn th' discussion until that day week. The Right HO ; Gentleman had explained a portion of his plan, 10 ) he had forgotten to say anything on the subject the drawbacks—a question intimately connects j with the intended alteration. The Right I-1 0 , Gentleman should also recollect, that the scale °,l duties on spirits was totally different from all he 1110 stated at the commencement of the Session. point of fact, the duty which was to have been le; was now to be 6d., and an additional 6d. was to 1) laid on rum—a spirit on which the present rate ° duty of duty in Ireland amounted almost to a p ro ' hibition. It was a very questionable matter, tool whether the measure of the Right Hon. Gentienni: would operate as a relief to the West Indians. most distressed of all the West Indians were ot l ; own colonies, which produced very little of the kind of sugar to which the Right Hon. Gentleillej gave a reduction of duty ; while the least distresseo colonies—sueh as Demerara and others—sent I this country a vast quantity of that very kind ° sugar. However good, therefore, the Right I-10°: Gentleman's plan might be in principle, it was tremelv doubtful whether it would not fail altog e ' ther in practice. He therefore saw additional roe' sons for delay. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUO pledged himself to explain the question of drat backs fully at another opportunity. Mr. HUME objected strongly to the tempo!' nature of the Right Hon. Gentleman's messur:. He hoped that the Right Hon. Gentleman xvoll i. see the propriety of doing away with the 275. 4 duty altogether. After a few words from the CIIANCELLOR of I EXCHEQUER and Mr. BRIGHT, Mr. CHARLES PALLMER gave notice of I ,‘ intention to move, in Committee, that the dtl on sugars imported into Ireland be reduced one 10 Mr. JOHN WOOD said, that of all those CO nected with the trade in sugar, no class was so roi' l, distressed as the sugar refiners, and he hoped 0 4 1; would not be forgotten in the Chancellor of t Exchequer's arrangement. , P Mr. KEITH DOUGLAS hoped that the -,li cession on the subject of the spirit duties, incluc o o the imposition of the additional duty on rum, vvo 4 ii, be taken at the same time as the discuss i o n on le, sugar duties, as they were a part and parcel , as ss‘ as a consequent of those duties. , Mr. BERRIES, in reply to the Hon. Med ) ) for Preston said it was his intention at the earl' s ; opportunity to state the changes to be introdo e ' into the Act which regulated the refining of sit Mr. WARBURTON begged to ask when t Right lion. Gentleman intended to explain his, tentions with regard to the Customs Duties 13' Mr. HERRIES had given way to the more portant measures of his Right Hon. Friend ' . Chancellor of the Exchequer), but it was his, tention at an early day to bring the subject b e ' the House. A Mr. HUME, after observing that the Cour t Directors for India gave themselves little tro with respect to its affairs, begged to know if , °pink 14th levied land a tiller, an adi Th order( Th Navin to res KISSO PEEL of N was