The Sun. — London, England, 1863-07-10 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT HOUSE OF LORDS—Last Evening. The LOU)I CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack at five o'clock• PRIVATE BUSINESS. The Tees Conservancy, West Shropshire Mineral Rail- I way, South Yorkshire Railway, Great Northern Railway (Cheshire lines), Glasgow and South Western, and Ayr and Maybole Junction Railways, Scottish Central Railway, and Standedge and Oldham Turnpike Trust bills were read a third time and passed. The Colonial Letters Postal Bill was read a third time and passed. The Telegraphs Bill was read a third time and passed. The Poor-law Board Continuance Bill was read a second time. Tho report of amendments to the Sheep and Cattle (Scot land) Bill was brought up and received. The Statute Law Revision Bill passed through commit tee. LAY BAPTISM. Lord BROUGHAM called attention to the subject of the ceremony o 1 baptism being performed by laymen instead of clergymen. It was roost desirable that any misapprehen sion on the question existing in the public mind, as he (Lord Brougham) believed was the case, should be set aside. He beged to state that the question had been settled long ago. Lay baptisio, to all intents and purposes, was as good an , ! as legal as baptism by a clergyman. PUBLIC WORKS (MANUFACTURING DIS TRICTS) BILL. On the motion for receiving the resort of amendments to this bill, 'I he Earl of DERBY stated that Yorkshire was alto- {;other eicluded from the provisions of the bill; that parts of Lancashire, 50 miles from the place of distress, was taxed under it, which was obviously unjust ; and that many of the districts felt it to be so unjust, that they refused to take advantage of the rate at all. Earl GRANVILLE said he agreed with the noble earl that the amendment which had been made, by inserting the word " owners" in one of the clauses, was quite unneces sary, and therefore he should have no objections to its being struck out. He would consider the other objections taken by the noble earl, and state the d eterm i n ation he arrived at before the third reading of the bill. The report was then received. The report of amendments to the Thames Embankment (South Side) Bill was brought up and received. The Militia Ballot Suspension and Walmer Vestry bills passed through corcmittee. The Passengers Act Amendment Bill was read a third time and passed. The .uoan Societies Bill wa J read a second time. lONIAN UDGES. Lord CHELMSFORD moved an humble address to her Majesty for copies of any paper in the possession of the Secretary of State for the Colonies containing any charges of conduct inconsistent with their judicial office against Sir George Marcoran and Sir Anastasio Xidian, late judges of the Supreme Council of Justice in the lonian Islands. The Duke of NEWCASTLE said, if ho produced the papers asked for, Sir H. Storks would not have confidential communications with his superior without the risk of having the whole of them produced to Parliament, or being himself charged with acting in a partial spirit. He (the Duke of Newcastle) could not let that able governor be treated un fairly; if he took any other course, he would feel himself degraded. (Hear, hear.) Sir H. Storks deserved the con fidence of the house for the manner in which be organised The hospitals during the Crimean war. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord had represented him to say, that, though his box was full of papers on the subject, he declined to pro duce any of them. Now, no such words had fallen from him in the previous debate. The Marquis of BATH—I heard the noble duke say it with my own ears. The Duke of NEWCASTLE—But perhaps the noble marquis has not as good a memory as I have, or cannot take as correct a short-hand of what I said as others then present who are not members of this house. (Hear, hear.) What I did say was, that, though the box was half full of papers, I would not produce those which referred to this subject. The noble duke concluded by saying that a dan gerous precedent would be set if these papers were produced and he must throw the responsibility attendant on their production upon the house. He had offered to give them without the signatures of the parties who had put their names to the papers, but this offer was declined by the members of that house who took an interest in this ques tion. He would not divide the house, and would not raise any prejudice against these men, but must leave them to the judgment of the house when the papers were seen. On a former occasion, when this question was before the house, there were only four peers present on one side and five on the other. He thought the crowded state of the benches opposite showed the interest which could be introduced into a question of the kind ; but, however, these judges would say, "save me from my friends." The Earl of DERBY had not expected to speak on this question, as he had been privately informed that the noble duke would not resist the motion. Not one word of imputa tion had been said against Sir H. Storks. (Ironical laughter from Earl Russell,) He would ask the noble earl, if he ob jected to any statement of his, to take the ordinary course of reply. But, for his part, he believed that the noble duke opposite (Newcastle) and Sir H. Storks had been made the dupes of parties who held ulterior objects, and that Sir H. Storks had been misled throughout the proceedings. The noble duke stated that these judges were liable to be dis missed at her Majesty's pleasure; but if the noble duke, having apparently satisfactorily held the seals of the Colo nial-office, should, on coming down to his office in the morning, see that her Majesty was pleased to dispense with his services; and, on asking an audience to know in what what manner he had forfeited the Sovereign's favour, had been referred to the Prime Minister, and had been told by the latter that he was long enough in an office of high emo lument, and that her Majesty deemed it for the good of the public service that he should be dismissed ; and that the head of the Government had placed his hand upon a box and said, "You have perverted your high office for the pro motion of your own interests, and have been guilty, if not of corruption, at least of discreditable conduct; this box has papers in it; I won't say whether it is full or half full— (laughter)—but if you ask me who made the charges therein contained, I refuse to tell you, and Parliament will not com• pel me"—he would feel that he was hardly treated, and yet this was the course which had been pursued in the present case. The judges asked who were the informers , against them, or, in the language of th e Roman satirist, Quibus indices; quo teste probavit ? Quisnam delator ?" Now it was the delator th a t these men were entitled to know. The Duke of NEWCASTLE sa id he had authority to give the names of the persons to whom the word delator might be supposed to apply. The Earl of DERBY never understood that any names, except those that were mixed up with the charges, were asked for. This was the fir t time he had heard that Par - li a reent was not to i nqu ir e into questions in which it might differ from the Government as to the conduct of officials. It was not novel in motions of this kind to ask the assistance of one's friends to support the motion; and, in deed, he had been told that it was not till half-past eleven last night that the noble duke informed his friends that they would not be wanted to resist the motion. (Laughter.) Perhaps the noble duke's colleagues did not feel so strongly as himself on the impolicy of the production of these papers. (Hear, hear.) Either the noble duke, in producing these papers when he did not think it conducive to the public service to do so, was abandoning his duty, or the Govern ment was too weak at this period of the session to carry in P ar liament what they wanted. (Hear , hear.) liehoped the day would never come when those who wished to apply to this house to protect them from the attacks of petty tyranny in any part of the territory which was under her Malesty's Government would apply in vain. (Hear, hear.) Earl RUSSELL, at some length, showed that the motion conveyed an imputation against Sir Henry Storks, and said he listened to the noble Earl's (Derby) speeches with a s much courtesy as the noble earl listened to his. (Laughter.) After a few words from Earls GREY and G RANVI LLE. The motion was assented to. The house then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS—Last Evening• The SPEAKER took the chair at 4 o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The Colne Valley and Halstead Railway, Metropolitan Railway, and Rumney and Brecon and Merthyr Tydfil Railway Junction Railway Bills were read a third time. The Sidmouth and Budleigh-Salterton Railway Bill was read a second time. GUILDHALL ENTERTAINMENT. On the motion of Sir De L. EVANS an address for re turn of the number of the metropolitan police employed within the City to assist the police of London in maintain ing order on the recent occasion of the entertainment at the Guildhall to his Royal Highness the Prince of Wales was agreed to. VAGRANCY ACT (SCOTLAND). Mr. COCHRANE gave notice that to-morrow he should ask the Lord Advocate whether he intended to introduce a bill to apply the English Vagrancy Act to Scotland. COPYRIGHT. early next session, he Mr. BLACK gave notice that, should introduce a bill to consolidate the acts relating to literary copyright, unless the Government in the meantime intimated their intention of bringing in such a mea sure . INDIA. Mr. CONINGIIAM gave notice that on Monday he should ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Government to adopt the suggestions of the Royal Commissioners with respect to remedial 'measures for the Indian army, in order to pre vent for the future a loss annually of 60 in every 1,000 INFANTICIDE. Mr. COX gave notice that on going into committee of supply, he should call attention to the extension of infan ticide in England and Wales. PACKET ESTIMATES--AUSTRALIA. est t s ir S. ITORTHCOTE said he intended, when the pac ket were before the house, to call attention to the route to Australia via Panama, and ask the intentions of the Govenneent mm. WESTERN AUSTRALIA.: In reply to Mr. MARSH, Mr. FORTESCUE stated that the Government could not prevent convicts who had served their tme going wherever they pleased. ORANGE LODGES—PRINCE EDWARD'S ISLAND. In reply to Mr. MAGUIRE, Mr. FORTESCUE stated that his noble friend at the head of the Colonial-office had learned with regret that the native Legislature had passed an act for the incorporation of these lodges, because it was calculated to foment religi ous animosities. As the act had not been received it would be improper to state what advice the Government might feel disposed to give her Maje•ty on the subject. MONUMENTS IN WESTMINSTER ABBEY. Mr. AYRTON inquired of the Secretary of State for the Home Department, under what conditions monuments erected by public subscription, in memory of public men, could be placed in Westminster Abbey; and whether it was the fact that fees to the extent of £2OO were demanded by the Dean and Chapter for permission to place the bust of the late Sir G. C. Lowii in the Abbey, and for what purpose the fees were applied ? Sir G, GREY, in reply, read a letter from the Dean, slating that permission to erect monuments rested with himself and the House of Common s. Ho (the Dean) wag anxious to check the erection of monuments, because they encroached up on the space required for public worship. The fees demanded were the same in the case of Sir James Mackintosh. The right hon. bar o net read a list of the modes of apprtpriating the fees, &c., the balance being appropriated to repairing the fabric, and other purposes. ROAD FROM. CHARING-C AR ROSS TO ST. JAMES'S P K. Sir H. VERNEY asked the First Commissioner of Works whether it was the opinion of the Government that a carriage road ought to be openec: from Charing-cross to the Mall in St . James's-Park ; and whether, if it was thought desirable, he would take an early opportunity to carry it into effect? Mr. COWPER said the subject was under consideration. To carry out the proposed plan it would be necesary to pull down a house or two. HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. In reply to Mr. WYLD, Mr. FORTESCUE intimated that the Government had not as yet given its consent to the reconstruction of this company; neither had any remonstrances been received from Canada. THE WAR OFFICE. Mr. CONINGHAM asked the Under Secretary of State for War whether any measures had been taken by the Go vernment to investigate the merits of Captain Forbes's breech-loading principle, as compared with Armstrong's; whether this principle had not been already adopted by Russia, in the flotilla on the Caspian Sea; and whether the Messrs. Horsfall had manufactured any of these, so called, Clay's guns for the British Government. The Marquis of HARTINGTON replied that no com munication had been received at the War-office from Capt. Forbes. He could not tell whether the Russian Govern ment had adopted the breech-loading principle. ROSTER OF CAVALRY REGIMENTS. Col. SYKES asked the Secretary of State for War, whether the roster of relief of the Cavalry Regiments in India was interrupted in the case of the Queen's Bays which had been ordered home in November, 1861, at which time the regiment was greatly reduced by the loss of ten officers and 161 men in four years, and by volunteering, and which still remained below its strength ? The Marquis of HARTINGTON explained that these matters rested with the Commander-itt-Chief. In the case specified an exception had been made. "THE CROWN SOLICITOR" (BANKRUPTCY). Mr. COX asked the Attorney-General whether there was in the Court of Bankruptcy, Basinghall-street, Lon don, an officer called " The Crown Solicitor ;" and, if so, what his duties were ; by whom and under what authority he was appointed ; what his remuneration was; whether the same was paid by fees or salary; and out of what fund it was paid ? The ATTORNEY-GENERAL entered at some length into an explanation. Mr. Aldridge had been appointed to take charge of pauper cases. The allowance had been settled at £1,200 a year, which involved some expenditure, reducing tho actual pay much below that amount. JAPAN. In reply to Mr. B. COCHRANE, Mr. LAYARD replied that British residents had been warned to provide for their protection. No information had been received at the Foreign-office stating that the period for the ultimatum of the Japan Government had been extended 10 days beyond the already specified time. ALEXANDRIA TELEGRAPH CABLE. In reply to Mr. CRAWFORD, Mr. F. PEEL stated the rupture took place 70 miles from Alexandria, and that it would be repaired in about a month. POLAND. Sir J. FERGUSSON intimated that when the ad j ourned debate came on he intended to ask the hon. member for Sheffield (Mr. Roebuck) a question. INDIAN BUDGET. Sir C. WOOD intimated, in reply to an hon. member, that he had not yet determined the exact day when he should call attention to the finances of India. FORTIFICATIONS (PROVISION FOR EX PENSES) BILL. Lord PALMERSTON moved the second reading of this bill. Sir F. SMITH moved, as an amendment, " That no further expenditure be incurred for the present upon that part of the project for fortifications which is based on the assumption that an enemy might land in force and attempt to besiege Portsmouth and Plymouth, except on such works as are in a very advanced state of progress." The hon. baronet commenced by stating that since the question was before them last year circumstances had not altered in any essential degree. It was quite evident that if all these works were completed, upon the scale recom mended by the commission, there would be no army left to take the field against the invaders. But Row, in case of any invasion from France—which was very unlikely if England maintained her supremacy at sea—was it not much more probable that the invading force would march by the directest route for the capital than turn aside to destroy a couple of dockyards ? Of the two operations, the latter would be by far the more difficult. A bombardment might destroy a certain number of ships and storehouses, and a certain amount of combustible matter, but it would not destroy the docks, the wharves, the iron, or the timber; therefore, for a small compensation, the enemy would incur an immense risk. He admitted that a dockyard like Pem broke would be exposed to a certain amount of danger in case of war with France, provided the enemy could land with sufficient force upon our shores, but the experience of the Crimean war had shown that five days were requisite for the landing of so small a force as 20,000 infantry, with artillery and 1,000 horse ; and how then could the French effect a landing for 100,000 men ? At any rate they would never attempt to land at Portsmouth ; they might land much more easily on the coast of Kent, and then they could take possession of Chatham, Sheerness, and Deptford. At 'Woolwich an enormous amount of stores were collected, and yet it was not proposed to erect as much as a single redoubt there. They had been told there was a chance of a bombard ment of Portsmouth by vessels entering by Spithead. Now, he was not prepared to admit that Charleston was a case in po• int and he hoped the nobl e l or d the Secretary to the Ad miralty would state his opinion on the matter. He thought that, both with regard to the guns employed at Fort Sumter and the setting of the tide at both harbours, there was no analogy between them. It was therefore idle to talk of plac ing obstructions at Spithead, for they would have a most se rious effect upon our own fleet, which would be thus shut out. Under these circumstances they would have to depend upon the forts alone, and if these could be made to fulfil the noble lord 's e xpectations no one would be more r e j o i ce d t h an himself. If he could see the:thing in the same light as the noble lord he would be the last man to oppose the expenditure of the money; but believing that there never would be any occasion to use the proposed works, he felt it his duty to oppose such works as were not in a very advanced state. Now it appeared that up to the 31st of last March, not a halfpenny had been laid out on the north-eastern works at Plymouth, which were estimated to cost £135,000. Surely it was not too late to step these. In his opinion they should pause and consider whether they might not adopt a m ore economical system, and substitute field works for the per manent ones originally recommended. The eastern division of the works at Chatham had not been advanced during the year. Would the noble marquis tell him whether any land had been purchased at Chatham ? The Marquis of HARTINGTON said he believed that land had been purchased. Sir F. SMITH said there was nothing in the papers to show that the land had been purchased. He thought it was quite unnecessary to go on with the minor works if it was intended to complete the works on Portsdown range, for if an enemy could carry the gigantic works on Portsdown hill, it would be an easy matter to destroy the small lines. The idea of the Duke of Wellington was, not that an enemy I could come round by Portsdown-hill and attack the dock yards of Portsmouth, but that it might be possible for France to send a fleet into the Solent from the Gosport side, which by shells and mortars would do serious damage to the dock yard. What he wanted, and what the house wanted, was not to thwart the plans of the noble lord, but to cut down the expenses to a more economical sta ndard. How could they imagine than an e nem y would laud upon the south eastern coast I With th e present facilities for the transport of troops, the whole force of the country could be concen. trated on the spot within 24 hours. And if they could not imagine that an enemy would attempt a landing, was it not a waste of money to construct works upon so extensive a scale? The Government had departed in many points from the recommendations of the commission, and why not give up other works which were only jest begun, and the value of which was open to very great doubt ? Nothing had been done et Woolwich, although the com mission strongly recommended a redoubt. The commission had also recommended works at Chatham, but nothing had been done there. For his own part, although representing Chatham, he would never think of recommending anything in the shape of fortifications for that town, for he believed the idea of invasion was a mere bugbear. (Hear, hear.) He was sure the noble lord had no personal fears, but that his fore were for the nation ; but there Wes stuff in the people of Britain to repel any hostile attack, and the army that would set foot upon the English shore would find a grave there, for not a man of them would ever return to his own country. Was the volunteer force a myth and a sham From what he saw of that force, he would not be afraid to see the English shores defended by the volunteers, assisted by cavalry and artillery, against any force which could be brought to bear upon them. The landing of an army upon a foreign shore when opposed was no plaything, as every one who had witnessed such an operation could testify. Having looked at this ques tion with g reat calmness and a sense of responsibility as a soldier, he felt it his duty to put upon the paper an amendment which he submitted to the consideration of the house. As he said before, he did not want to stop works which were in a forward state; his ob. ject was to invite the house to consider some more econo mical system of defending our shores. The hon. and gallant gentleman concluded by proposing the amendment which stood in his name._ Sir D. L. EVANS said he could not agree with the hon. and gallant colonel who spoke last upon the question of leaving the defence of our arsenals to the ships of war in the service. The hon. gentleman seemed to think we were alto- gether free from incidental dangers, and that we might at all times depend upon a strong Channel fleet ; but suppose that fleet, from necessity, should be distributed over the world to protect our possessions abroad, in what position shoula we find ourselves ? The Marquis of HARTINGTON thought it would have been more convenient if they had postponed the gene ral discussion until the bill bad gone into committee, but that not being the case, he would state that the whole of the money required had been, or very shortly would be paid. Out of the £40,000 that had been voted last year only £20,000 had been spent; but, at the same time, nothing had happened since to alter the opinions of the Government upon the genera► question of fortifications. It had been generally conceded that it would be inexpedient to excleavour to for tify the coast all round the country ; but the generalfeeling as to strengthening the salient points remained,unaltered. Mr. COBDEN said that, if the question before the house had been one involving only technical considerations, he should have been the last to interfere. Upon an inquiry as to what forts should be erected upon the sea coast com manding a particular roadstead or entrance to a harbour, he should submit Entirely to the opinion of scientific men ; but that was entirely a new question. The terms of the Royal Commission upon that subject, giving directions to the com missioners as to their duties, expressed that they should es . pecially inquire into all such works of defence as were in tended for the protection of the Royal arsenals and dockyards in case of any hostile attack by foreign enemies by sea or by land. In a subsequent memorandum it was stated that, in taking into consideration the condition of Woolwich, they were bound also to consider the general question of the de fences of the metropolis, and Sir Harry Jones had remarked that the new arsenal, involving as it did a considerable out lay for fortifications, should be so situated as to form a rallying point for the defence of the country in the event of London falling into the hands of the enemy. That showed that what was contemplated, was not the protec tion of roadsteads and harbcurs, but that the scheme was based upon the assumption that an enemy had landed in the country and taken possession of the interior. He wished to bring that fact under the notice of the house for another reason, for he should show that the idea was entirely attri- butable to one person. The commissioners had their in structions to report upon a scheme of inland fortifications, and therefore he did not hold them responsible for its erigin. He was of opinion that the scheme was entirely attributable to one person, who, he dared say, was in the mind of every • body present, and if that one person were absent from the house, from any cause whatever, he ventured to say that the scheme wonld not go on. (Hear.) The other day the scheme was put off because that one person was absent, and his hon. friend the member for Birmingham (Mr. Bright), who was sitting by him at the time when notice was given that the noble lord at the head of the Government could not attend, rather bluntly remarked to his next neighbour "that nothing bad could be done unless the Prime Minis ter was present." (Laughter.) He was not going to make any assertion without proof, and when the noble lord (Lord (Palmerston) thought fit to reply, if he substituted a few facts and arguments for jests and pleasantries, he (Mr. Cobden) would be very much obliged to him. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) When he came into the house in 1841 the noble lord was pursuing the same course that be was now pursuing with reference to fortifications and defences against France. It was the peculiar idiosyncrasy of the noble lord, and it was this, that steam navigation had had the effect of diminishing the power of England, as in oppo sition to the power of France. In June, 1845, he launched the idea, and in July of the same season declared that steam had "bridged" the channel. Sir Robt. Peel scoffed at the idea, and maintained that the demonstration which England could even then make with her steam navy was such as would surprise the world. That was Sir Robert Peel's reply when the noble lord talked of steam bridges, and what authorities had he ever adduced in the house to justify the opinion upon which they were acting and spending millions upon millions of money ? Admiral Ber keley in 1848 was opposed to him ; Sir Thomas Hastings, who at the time was at the head of the gunnery depart ment, was opposed to him; Sir C. Napier ridiculed the idea of invasion, and although the hon. and gallant member for Westminster made a speech that evening which he (Mr. Cobden) could not understand, he yet remembered that the gallant gentleman spoke differently in 1852. But not only had those authorities separated themselves from the noble lord, but in 1852, on the subject of the ballot, Earl Russell, in a very blunt manner, separated from him, declaring that he could not agree in the fanatical idea of sudden invasion of the country, which had its origin in panic and not in reason. Au HON. MEMBER—And Gibson. (Hear, and laughter Mr. COBDEN—Yes, Mr. Gibson was also opposed to the noble lerd—(laughter)—but he (Mr. Cobden) was not going to quote him as an authority. But when the noble lord brought forward the subject in 1860, and culminated in his folly, whom did he quote as an authority ? Sir R. Peel, who had ridiculed his idea, but whom, nevertheless, he did not hesitate to misquote in support of his project. He trusted that the noble lord would now take the oppor tunity of correcting the error, and of recalling what could not but be considered a calumny on an illustrious name. The noble lord said that steam had given a great advan • tage to the enemy. But how ? When sailing vessels were the test of comparison it was supposed that England had five tons of mercantile shipping to one of France ; but if they compared their steam mercantile marine with that of France, it would be found that they had 20 horse power to one of France. Was it possible, then, that that could render the country more vulnerable which had given it a fourfold increase of its strength ? Its superiority in naval matters depended, as might be seen by a glance at what was doing in the way of shipbuilding on all their great rivers in its private dockyards; and it was absurd to suppose that any Government was so foolish as not to estimate them at their true value in considering the re sources of the nation. (Hear.) Having referred to the fact that Sir Howard Deuglas, when he gave his approval to the scheme of fortifications, was 85 years of age, and was so infirm that he could not be appointed on the commis sion, circumstances which detracted from the weight of his opinion, the hon. member proceeded to say that if, acting under such guidance, the house surrendered its opinion to the noble lord, who had no more experience of military matters than he (Mr. Cobden) had, having never risen to a higher grade than a captain of militia—(laughter)—it would prove that it had become effete and worn out. (Hear.) The noble marquis who had just spoken for the Govern ment had voted twice against the project, and he was sorry to see one so young able to do it so coolly—(laughter) —to stoutly deny now that which he had so recently twice con demned. !He only wished the house could adjourn for one day to the Southdowns—(hear, hear, and laughter)—and hold a session under Nelson's monument, and he was quite sure they would do one of Itwo things—either vote that those fortresses should be established, or pass a resolution that Englishmen should never more sing " Rule, Bri tannia," or "Ye mariners of England." (Laughter.) These forts would be only useful after an enemy who had made himself master of the sea had landed on our coast, for they had a very high authority that the Southdown forts could not prevent an enemy from landing. Of what use, then, he :asked, were those forts, except for our soldiers to take refuge in whilst the enemy marched to Brighton or some other place far more pleasant than those forts ? The hon. and gallant member for Chatham had said it would take a larger army than this country could muster to man then* and where then, he asked, was the necessity for their building solid structures for time to gnaw away. (Hear, hear.) Hampshire and Sussex had each 30,000 agricultural labourers, well used to the spade, and he ventured to assert that in less than twenty-four hours they could get upwards of 50,000 of them on the Southdown Hills aid throw up mountains of earthworks. (Hear, hear.) Ho doubted if they could find in Portsmouth a military or naval man under 50 years of age—and he made that stipulation—(hear, and laughter) — who was not only opposed to those forts, but who was dis gusted with them, and who felt humiliated at their construc tion as a constant reproach and stigma on the manhood of the ago, and a symbol of our disgrace. (Hear, and laughter.) And the people of Portsmouth, when they went by railway to Havant, rode with their backs to the engine, or covered their faces with their hands, so greatly were they ashamed of the forts. (Laughter.) Their construction was urged by some op account of the extended range of our guns, and their giving us an advantage over the landing of an enemy; but had not the range of our rifles increased more than our guns? And he was inclined to believe that 10,000 riflemen, if they had sufficient time to dig their rifle pits, would be a far better check to the landing of an enemy than those forts. They were a disgrace and a dishonour to the ago and to English men, and such things were never heard of in former times. He read an extract from Mr. Pitt's speech in 1804, when there was really a fear of an invasion, and he proposed to meet it in four ways; first, by our large ships in deep water; next, in shallow water, by our flotilla of gunboats ; third, to prevent the landing of the enemy ; and the fourth, the least convenient, was to meet him in the field when he had gained ai landing on E ng li s h groun d. (H ear , h ear .) Were 48 then, i e asked, so degenerated that we required fortifications to hide our soldiers in. (Hear, hear.) He should vote with the hon. and gallant member to stop those works which had not arrived at any great perfection ; but he (Mr. Cobden) consi dered that the nearer they were to completion the more de 'Arable it was they should-be stepped, for the reason that THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, JULY 10, 1363. member would stippott him. The Secretary to the Admi ralty declaimed against cheese-paring, but he forgot that his vocation at one time was that of clipper and parer. (Laughter.) Having referred to the arguments of Mr. Newdegiate and Sir James Fergusson in support of the scheme of fortifications, the hon. member contended that the works which had proved most difficult to carry at ebasto pol, and more recently in America, were earthworks, and consequently deprecated the expenditure of millions in sur rounding Portsmouth with fortifications of masonry covered with iron. Military authorities were not unanimous in re gard to them, and when it was said that he (Mr. Osborne) and his friends stood alone in their opposition to the scheme, he pointed to the hon, and gallant officer opposite (Sir F. Smith), who had served In every hemisphere with distinction, and to his hon. and gallant friend the member for Westminster, both of whom withheld from it their approval. The country might now lie apathetic on the matter, but the time would come when it would inquire for itself, and point to those fortifications, not as a monument of the wisdom, but as a monument of the folly of the House of Commons of the day. (Hear.) They were called upon in a time of peace, when we were on terms of friendship with the Emperor of the French, and when America was ex hausted, to adopt preceutions which they had never been called upon to do in a time of danger. (Hear.) He grudged nothing that might be wanted for the navy ; but having ' strengthened the army and raised the volunteers, the vote for whom might be much better devoted to the sustentation of the regular army, for his idea of volunteers was that t hey should pay for themselves, and not call upon the coun try; but having done all that, he should protest against a scheme of fortifications which was as extravagant as it would be useless. (Hear, hear.) Lord PALMERSTON—Sir, I must, in the first place, defend my hon. friend the member for Hertfordshire from the extraordinary misconception—l am sure it was not an intentional misrepresentation—of my hon. friend the mem ber for Liskeard, who accused him of anticipating an inva sion of this country from America. Now, my hon. friend said no such' thing, nor said anything that was susceptible of such an interpretation. My hon. friend said that we might, by force of events in America, find ourselvesin hos tility with the Northern States of America ; that, in that case, we should have to send our fleet to blockade the coast of America, or to defend our commerce there, and that in that case, our fleet being absent, and our protection of the Channel having ceased, France might be tempted to take advantage of our position, and prepare to invade the coun• try. I did not follow the hon. member for Liskeard in the description which he gave of the services of the hon. and gallant member who made this motion, whom he repre sented as having served in all the hemispheres. How many there are in this world— (laughter)—he did not ex plain, but I am quite sure that whatever their number may be, my honourable and gallant friend's services did him credit, (Hear.) Now, eiir, I must look at this motion in its true meaning and effect. It is nothing more nor less than a motion to throw out the bill, and to put a stop to all those works; it is nothing more nor less than a motion to reverse the decision deliberately come to by this house, and to act, as I maintain, in opposition to the general sense and intention of the country. That is a very grave motion, and my noble friend the member for Marylebone has anticipated an appeal to the country upon the question. I can assure him that I should feel perfect confidence in such an appeal, and I am quite satisfied the verdict of the country would be for us, and not for him. (Hear.) With regard to the hon. member for Rochdale, I can only say that I am very much obliged to him for that part of his speech which related to me, and he could not do me a greater favour than printing that speech and circulating it as widely as he can through every part of the country. Tne hon. member did me honour which I don't feel I deserved in fact, although I do dose. ve it in p Ant of intention. He was kind enough to say that the whole system of improved defences of the country made in the last few years was owing to me. Well, Sir, I am pre ud of that praise, for praise I consider it to be ; but, at the same time, although Ido admit that have laboured from the period he mentions, 1844 or 1845, to convince this country and the house, that we were in an inadequate state of defence, yet no one man, however right he might have been in his opinion, could have succeeded in producing the general and almost universal conviction which has prevailed on the subject, and the great results that have been accomplished, if ho had not—l had al most said, followed, but certainly been accompanied by the general sense of the country and Parliament in the mat ter. The real credit of awakening the country to a sense of its want of protection is due to the late Duke of Wel lington, and when the hon. member quoted the Duke of Wellington against a system of fortifications, he forgot his celebrated letter to Sir John Burgoyne. In that letter be called upon the country, by every motive that ought to influence a nation, to increase and improve our de- fences. In 1845, when unfortunate differences took place be tween this country and France, Portsmouth was in a totally defenceless state, and all the guns we had were a few mounted on batteries for salutes, whilst at Cherbourg there were eight large steamers capable of carrying from 1,200 to 1,500 men each, which might have run into Portsmouth, destroyed everything there, and have escaped without dan ger to themselves. Our army was then insufficient, and as to our fleet, I remember seeing the old Collingwood, a 72- gun ship, lying at Spithead—in fact, the only one lying there—and that because she was detained, instead of carry ing Admiral Seymour to the Pacific—to show that we had a channel fleet--(laughter)—and, in addition, we had only two vessels to protect Gibraltar and Malta and our interests in the Mediterranean. That state of things was induced from a feeling of security arising from our great success in the late war. There was at that time no likelihood of any rupture with any foreign Power, and there was a desire on the part of this house and the country to economise as much as possible. I thank the bon. member for saying that I was much to blame for inducing the house to establish the militia. I certainly urged that our dockyards should be protected, and I am convinced that this house never did a wiser thing, or one more conducive to public interest, than by their agreeing to that proposition. But hon, members talk big and boldly, and vapour about the impossibility of invasion, and appear to speak of it as nonsense. (Hear, hear.) Some persons tell us, and the hon. member for Rochdale amongst the number, how they would deal with invasion. The latter hon. gentleman advises that a certain number of riflemen should dig pits in the sand, and thereby withstand the guns of any number of ships that might be brought to bear against them. But it is well known 'hat amateur performers, though good ie one thing,cannot succeed in every hing. I admit the hon. gentleman met with emi nent success as an amateur diplumatist, and the country is very much indebted to him for his exertions as such—(hear and laughter) —but cion't let him fancy he can be as equally uccessful as an amateur general. America shows us an example of the danger attending the entrusting of our safety to amateur generals. The notion of America is—that is in the Northern States—that any man taken from any profes sion, provided he puts on a uniform, a cocked hat, and hada sword by his side, becomes a general—(laughter)—and the result is what we know by the last accounts. Hon. mem bers who speak of invasion as an impossibility are very much like the Northern States, who have gone on for the last two years saying and believing broadly and positively that the rebellion would be put down in three months-90 days— ever beginning, but never ending—(laughter)—dud tne con sequence is that, instead of their now being at Richmond, they are anxiously expecting the possibility of the enemy being at Washington. (Hear, hear.) And so with the lion, member for Rochdale ; and I cannot imagine anythingmore amusing to military men on the Continent than the speeches that are sometimes made to this house declaring invasion to bo an utter impossibility. I hope that nobody abroad who has any control over these matters will be led to act upon the supposition that that opinion is at all shared by the country, or those who are responsible for its safety. The late Luke of Wellington considered invasion possible, and he surveyed the whole of the south-eastern coast, and told you at how many points invasion might easily and rapidly be made. The noble lord then proceeded to refer to this s tate of the country in 1854, owing to the application of steam, and contrasted the means of invasion now with those that existed in 1804, when it was necessary to bring soldiers and artillery over in small transports, towed by sailing ves sels ; whereas now, with the facilities of steam, assisted by flat-bottomed boats, constructed for the purpose of lending on the seashore, it was easier for an enemy to invade a country than formerly. It is said that an army cannot be collected in Franc for the purpose of invasion without our being aware of ie t —but hon members must bear in mind that, if a rupture took place between the two countries, our ambassador and consular agents, as well as our fellow countrymen who were scattered over France, would have to leave that country, and we should have no means of ascertaining the fact. Allusion has been made to the length of time it took to land our army in the Crimea—but it must be borne in mind that that was an army unprovided with the means of landing now in the possession of other coun tries, and especially France. It is, therefore, I contend, essentially necessary, whether with regard to invasion or to the support of our navy, that we should protect our ar senals from destruction. Even admitting that a body of 20,000 or 25,000 men made such a successful attack and then surrendered, the destruction of our means of defence would be a positive gain to the enemy. It was therefore essential that we should protect our arsenals from a coup de moan. It is asked why are we afraid of an invasion, for, supposing 100,000 men were landed on our coasts, have we not 120,0u0 militia, 150,000 volunteers, and a great number of regular troops ? True; but they are scattered over the country, and some time must elapse before we could bring them together and organise them so as to bring them to bear on the 100,000 men concentrated at the point of land ing; and in the meantime cur d o ckyards, it left unpro tected, would be destroyed, and our naval power crippled for a very long time. (Hear.) The hon, member for Liskeard says that the navy is our real defence, and that in time of war that country which has the largest number of iron clads would have the command of the shoes of the other. Hive we a superior iron-clad fl tat ?—(hear, hear)—or are we likely to have one? (Hear, hear.) So far from that Luis house has opposed our building any more wooden ships to be covered with iron, similar to those used by other countries, and has decided that we shall wait until we can ascertain the best construction for iron ships. When, however, we again come to this house for money to construct such ships, I hope the hon. member and the house generally will not object to vote the money. (Hear.) It has also been said, and I quite agree in the opinion, that the navy, as a means of defence, cannot be overrated; but when completed there must be soldiers ready to man them, and if not completed they would not involve that necessity. Whatever state they were in, he considered that inland forts ought to be stopped. He offet ed no opinion on torts commanding the sea, that was a matter of engineering skill and the judgment of artillerymen, and he deferred to the balance of authority on that neuter. The hot, gentle man having referred to the grand scheme for a central arsenal, in the course of which ho expressed a hope that no land had been purchased for it, said that inland forts ought to be stopped unless her Majesty's Government could show him, on some better authority than he yet had, that they were required. The amendment had been brought forward from the Opposition side of the haze by an hon. and gal lant member, who was a very high authority on engineer ing and fortifications, and he (Mr. Cobden) looked upon the scheme of fortifications brought forward by her Majesty's Government as one calculated to inflict the most permanent wound—he used the word advisedly —upon the reputation and good fame of the so-called Liberal party. They were there to vote these fortifications at the instance of the noble lord alone. Everybody admitted it, and without saying a word in justification of it, every member on the Liberal side of the house shrugged his shoulders and avoided the question as much as possible. (Hear, and laughter.) They were laying down a great scheme of fortifications that would require an enormous amount of armed force to render them safe or useful—(hear, hear)—because they must man theta to protect them from a coup de main of the enemy. (Hear, hear.) He put it to the great Liberal party in that house whether they were acting wisely in allowing themselves to be identified with this measure at the instance of the noble lord. He should not trouble the house with any remarks on the details of the plan, and he thanked them for giving him an opportunity of entering his earnest but ample: pro test against the undertaking. Hear, hear.) Sir J. FERGUSSON said, if the policy of the Govern ment had not been over and over again approved of by the country, the House would never have arrived at that stage at which that subject had been taken up that day. He contended that the country approved of the scheme, believing that when it was carried out it would prove a great saving of public money, especially in time of public emergency ; and he urged that much of Lord Palmerston's popularity was attributable to the determination of the noble lord to fortify our arsenals and strengthen our coast defences. It was extraordinary that the hon. member for Rochdale should have quoted Pitt against a system of fortifications, when Pitt was an advocate for both land and sea defences. The hon. gentleman then proceeded to argue that forts were found of great advantage to Russia in the Crimea, and he pointed out the analogy between Spithead and Charleston with regard to defences. Col. DICKSON for once found himself in agreement with the hon member for Rochdale. He believed a foreign invasion of this country, especially a French invasion, was utterly impossible, and therefore, in presence of the distress both in England and Ireland, he should consider the pro proposed expenditure not merely wasteful but criminal. Mr. C. BERKELEY pointed out that there was a dis crepancy of £60,000 between the estimated expenditure on the proposed works as stated last year and the estimate now laid upon the table, and he called upon the noble lord a , the head of the Government to account for the fact. Lord FERMOY believed that when the people were ap pealed to, it would be found that many hon. members who thought they were ensuring for themselves popularity by supporting this vote, had reckoned without their host. In his opinion aFrench invasion was a mere panic,and assuredly it would never take place unless England pursued a course of policy that isolated her from the other nations of Europe. Mr. NEWDEGATE would support the second reading of the bill, but only on condition that the scheme for erecting a great arsenal in the middle of England was given up. Sir E. COLEBROOKE said it was a mistake to suppose that the hon. and gallant member for Chatham was op posed to every form of fortifications. What he had opposed was the extravagant extent to which it was proposed to carry them out in the present instance. It was upon this ground that he. himself had opposed, on a former occasion, the scheme; and he thought the Government would smooth the way for the bill if they frankly stated how far they were prepared to meet the views of the hon. and gallant gentle man opposite. Lord C. PAGET said he was not at all surprised that the hon. member for Rochdale should take exception to the scheme of fortificati ons propos ed by her Majesty's Govern ment. He had himself ever y year to de al with the ver y able and strenuous oppositi on o f the honeee n tleman to everything connected with putti ng our navy inefficient COBDEN—I opposed w as te.] ,He did not order. [Mr. r ecollect any occa sion on which the gi s t o f the hon. member's observations was not to the same e ff ec t as that n ight. He was sure the hon. member was as gr ea t a patriot as any yoneof themselves, but his patriotism w as o f a peculiar c haracter. He believed his hon. friend stood alone in by an hen member the course pursued by the Government was approved ? opposite, what was the best proof thaitt was this--that they they never heard of any the countdry in his opinions on these matters. Bat, a s h a d been obse rve never heard of any panics now ; had taken the precaution the last few years the Governmentour shores. Let them turn of looking to the defences joaifs G over nment had benefitted squadron coming over to insu lt this country, because for to the question whether t by steam or not. No introduction d since the the country had increaserapidly by his noble of steam ; but, as ha d often been stated one could deny that the power of friend at the head of the Government, the introduction two principles were perfectly com • inva sion than before. The s of steam, however powerful the patible. In these days be, a blow might be struck fleet of the country place. It was this that had led the of steam also rendered the country . more liable to upon an unexpecte d more secure, irrespective of our parts of our Government and ee t t h c e oedue.otountry to make some of the princi palbe drawn aside to protect the colonies fleet, which mightf the empire ; so that it became necessary or a distant part ° a nd other important places safe against a coup de mate had great respect for the opinions of the hon. and gallant member for Chatham, and he would not to have Portsraoilutehh now discuss with him whethertheforts should be larger or smeller; but this he would say, that when a scheme of fortifications WAS idle to ask the house to chip a bit Ortifications had been recommended by eminent engineere -. an T t h g e e h n o tl n e . m a a n n d a g p a p ll e an are t d ge to nt f l o e r m ge a t n th h a a t d , were to complete the larger works hill they should abandon the Hillsea lines; on Portadown there wasnothingto prevent a body but the hon. and g a sa w id ay th h a e t r e ev a e n u d jo i g h and resolute men from landing from a squa dron,sanction the cheeseparing policy of the hon of intelligent in these days of s team ' turn the line of the forts. He trusted the pro t i ll eete e fortifications, 'erla.;iiihey might If the a d tlemr t. men meets were carried, it and gallant gent e Govern t hous e whoo ul ro d men and completely ember would embarrass Mr. aIONSELL said that one would be led to infer from of the noble lord that these who did not the observation s as the Government take the same viewswere opposed to the dockyards. The only difference of opinion be- The question of steam was not what they had to eefence o rasa the wihooulre was a s to the moat efficient way of securing that tween them object. t effect would be produced discuss, but wha _ by the largest number o f iron -clad vessels. If this country had the greatest number of iron -clad vessels she wou l u h ave the invading country at her reereY, and . would be able to d estroy a ll t h e p re parations for invasion. (Hear.) It appeared t o hi m t h at it was not at Portsmouth the defence was required, but at an d Toulon. Anybody wh o wou ld take the Cherbourg t ro uble to read the correspondence o f th e fi rst N apoleon wou ld see h e w idle it WAS to suppose that an invasio n cou ld take place in t h es e days of iron-clad ship s . It wou ld b e better to have half aa dozen iron•cl to this d vessels as floatin g b at t er i es than to have recourse antiquated system of fortifica tions, which was the mere idiosyncracy o f an i n di vidual. support the amendment. He H would Mr. PULLER said there were two questions that the house had to decide—first, whether, under existing circum stances, the invention of steamboats afforded reason to ap prehend an invasion from France ; and secondly, if it did, whether the Government fortifications would be the proper means of meeting the emergency. There had been much talk about an expression of the late Sir R. Peel as to bridg ing the Channel by the invention of steam, but the question wa s, when the Channel was bridged, who would have the most soldiers to send across the bridge. The future could never be estimated by the present, and as an instance of that he would cite the United States army, which four years ago wad as nothing compared with European armies, but w hi c h had now become a great military power. (Hear.) Supposing, for instance, that the Americans, after settling their own affairs, should declare war against us, the British navy would be employed in blockading the American ports, and who could say that (supposing the present Emperor removed) the French would not take advantage of the state of affairs, and throw a force into this country ? The true defence of England was her navy, and especially her iron clad ships, and the only reproach to England was that she wa s always unready when first called upon. Colonel SYKES said be had before condemned the proposed vote as impolitic, inglorious, unnecessary, and degrading to Englishmen. He had thought it an insult to the national character to suppose that British soldiers would wish to be put behind stone walls in case of an inva sion, and further investigation of the circumstances had not led him to alter his opinion. It was possible that 100,000 men might land upon our coasts, and bring with them 30,000 horses; but, though they might make an imposing figure, there would be an increase in the defences immedi ately, and if the 30,000 horses should be left for three days without fresh hay—which, of course, would be all: burnt within 50 miles round at once—the whole force would be disabled. With regard to the fortifications at Portsmouth they would require 30,000 men to man them, and that num berl could with difficulty be spared. The hon. and E la nt gentleman concluded by ca lli ng attention to what gland had but had done not many ye ars ago , when the population as 15,000,000, whereas it was n ow over 20,000 ,000 » nd, of course, proportionately stronger. Mr. B OSBORNE thought the house had exer iced a wise discretion in separating the forts of Spithead f m the general question of fortifications before them. It as said the cost would be £12,000,000, but when they came o arm the forts nob o d y cou ld sa y that it would not be £2O, 0000 (Hear, hear.) Was the house then, he asked, which rained at the Brompton gnat, now prepared to swallow the Ports mouth camel ? (Hear, and laughter.) The hon, ember for Hertfordshire had imparted a new feature into he de bate. He threatened them with invasion from A erica; and, judging from its absurdity, hewas quite convin ed that if the noble lord had proposed to fortify Hertford the hon. how can we maintain the efficiency of that navy in time of ' Executive the power of carrying out that principle war if our arsenals have been destroyed by the enemy? in any manner and to any extent It pleases. As (Hear, hear.) The opinions of naval and military men have soon as a sum of money is expended 1"../r any parti been quoted a,tainst the scheme; but it was very easy to get eu Jar wot kit is perfect ly vain to attempt to step it. opposite opinions in all natters, whether connected with You may show, most convincingly, that e,very tar' arts or sciences. Her Maj o s t y's Government , however,have thing spent will be thorou g hl y w ast e d , na y , rilat it taken the advice of those whom we consider competent men, A , •II contribute to injure the very purpose whichthe and in whom we have the utmost confidence; and upon the House of Commons had in view in voting the ex advice contained in the report of the Royal Commission we venditure. It dots not matter; the great mdtwity have acted; and we consider, notwithstanding what has of the house, and the great majority of the pub,lic, been said to the contrary, that the series of fortifications we too, shudder at the thought of admitting that an. propose are essential for the defence of the country. (Hear.) expenditure has been useless, and of, as they coh- I therefore hope the house will not be led away by the mo. cider, making it so. They will throw good money' tion of the hon. and gallant member, and reverse a formal after bad; they will not acknowledge a mistake, and. decision already come to, and upon which we have acted. put en end at once to abed specuLation ; they insist So far from this proposition being a disgrace to the Liberals, on makin g somet hie gof it, and are satisfied, in the I feel confideuc that the people are with us, a nd I s h ou ld tong run, to have a work worth, say, a thousand have no fears for the result of an appeal to the country on pounds, if a hundred thousand are expended every the question. The people of this country insist on being year to keep it up, to show for a million they have kept secure from attack. We know we have seen constant expended. So the Fortifications Bill was /Tag a. rovulsions of opinion from panics, and the hon. member for second time last night by an overwhelming majority.. Rochdale, who has written a pamphlet on panics, ought Sir Frederic Smith gave very good reasons not only to be the last man to oppose that which is likely to prevent for his amendment, but t gainst all the works for their recurrence. The country depends upon being de- which money is asked, but the reason, were urged in fended, and it was for the sake of security that 150,000 men vein. "We have bought the lard," said the G tvern volunteered to take up arms, and from a feeling that inva- men*, "we have built the foundations. The country sion was not a bugbear. (Hear.) I hope the house will Fill be saddled wish a debt to no purpose if you do' resist the motion of the hon. and gallant member. (Hear.) not allow us to complete them." The argument was The house divided-- irresistible. Sir Frederic Smith showed that 11.11 f Ayes 132 the money which w ill he needed to com p lete the: Noes 6l fortifications would, if expended upon the navy,. Majority The result was received with some manifestations of ap- forts when built would cost an enormous sum to please. keep them up, and when kept up at this sacrifice The bill was then read a second time would do more harm than good. The house was as AUGMENTATION OF BENEFICES BILL. usual penny wise and pound foolish ; it could not Lord PALMERSTON moved the second reading of this sacrifice the money paid for the foundation and the' premiums paid for the land, and went boldly on for an expenditure of several millions which not a soul believes necessary, and nine out of ten are COW vinced is mischievous. Another reason for the over whelming majority which this project of the Go vernment obtained is in some respects honourable to the House of Commons. Th. 3 vast majority are anxious to see the country insnk ed against attack ; they are prepared in the name of tLeir constituents, whom they fairly represent in this reatter, to incur any expense necessary for effecting this object. Bnt they distrust their own judgment ; they are unwilling either to take the trouble or incur the responsibility of examining the scheme of the Government, and of rejecting it. The Govern ment, they say, is responsible. If we give what it asks, we escape all reproach and we save ourselves all bother. Lord Palmerston says the forts are ne cessary. He is at the head of the Government andl ought to know. Let us vote this money for the forts,. and if they do not answer the purpose the fault will be his, not ours. That particular kind of reasoning did not find expression in the debate, but it had a very powerful influence as well upon those who voted as on those who stayed away. A phrase invented by Lord Palmerston always does very effective duty whenever the question of fortifications is rrised. Nearly twen'y years ago the noble lord, with more levity than truth, declared that steam had bridged the , Channel, and any time within the last five years this "steam bridge" has formed the burden of the song of the advocates of fortification. The public has forgotten the reply which, as Mr. Cobden reminded. the house last night, Sir It Peet made to this smart saying—" There are two parties who can play at making these steam bridges." Steam has certainly done nothing for France which it has not done for England in far greater degree. If it has given her he means of moving a large force quickly to a de termined point, it has given us the means of making a smeller force do duty over a much larger area. If - he French, encamped at Boulogne with the design of invading England, could, thanks to steam, cross quickly, and in the teeth of unfavourable winds, our English Channel fleet could move with equal speed towards the point of coast threatened, and reinforcements from all our dockyar s could gather there. The experience of the Crimea has shown, as Sir F. Smith observed, that it is a most difficult thing to land a large body of men even with favour able weather. With that advantage it took the allies five days to land a force upon the coast of the Crimea, which would only land upon the English coast, assuming the landing were unopposed, to meet certain and immediate destruction. So long as the navy is maintained in a proper condition any invasion of our shores is impossible. The forts are needless to prevent invasion if a strong navy is maintained; they are not needed if we have such a navy to defend the dockyards, and it is very doubt ful whether if the defence of the dockyards is left to them they can ensure it. It is all very well to talk of American exptriences and to quote Charlea tou in favour of Spithead, but there is not the slightest similarity between the two cases. The entrance at Charleston harbour was blocked up by obstructions of all kinds, which left the attacking vessels marks for the guns of the forts. We, as Sir F. Smith said, have a navy of our own, and cannot afford to lay down torpedoes which would prevent it from using our harbours. And not only will these forts be useless, they will be serious encumbrances. They will require so large a force to garrison them that our army available to meet the invading force will be reduced to a few regiments. We shall be so occupied with the defence of Portsmouth and Ply mouth, and half a dozen other places, which the enemy would never dream of attacking, that we shall leave him the road to London quite free. Mr. BARNES moved that the bill be read a second time that day two months. The house divided. The numbers were— For the second reading 179 Against 29 Majority for The bill was read a second time. The Alkali Works Regulation Bill, as amended, was considered and agreed to. The Salmon Fisheries (Ireland) Bill, as amended, was considered and agreed to. The Promissory Notes and Bills of Exchange, the Rail.. way Clauses, and the Sydney Branch Mint Bills were read a second time. The Greenwich Hospital (Provision for Widows) and the Court of Session (Scotland) Bills were pissed through committee. The Companies' Clauses Bill was withdrawn. The Misappropriation by Servants Bill was read a third time and passed. Other bills were advanced a stage, and the house was counted out at ten minutes to two o'clock. COUNTRY MARKETS. ... . MANCHESTER-JULY 9. At our market this morning there was a tolerable at tendance. Of English wheat there was a limited supply, and can scarcely be quoted cheaper, while American met a slew sale, at a reduction of 2d to 3d per 100 lb. Flour in limited request, at 6d per sack and barrel under the rates of last week. Oats and oatmeal, with only a moderate busi ness, were the turn in favour of buyers. Beans and In dian corn in limited requeat at late values. SPIRIT OF THE PUBLIC JOURNALS, TIMES.—We are now in a position to understand some of the causes, if not to estimate all the conse quences, of the strange revolution in Madagascar rwo independent but perfectly consistent accounts, the one from an eminent English missionary, the oiler from the French Consul at Tananarivo, the so•called capital of the island, leave no doubt of the. fatal errors whicn cost King itadama 11. his throne Ind his lite. Ti - e glimpse which we thus obtain into M.idagascar politics is most curious, and opens t, us many of the contrasts as well as of the analogies between civilised and semi-barbarous States. Th e late King, though not a professed Christian, had protected and countenanced the Christians during the persecuting reign of his mother, and his acces sion was hailed as the triumph of toleration and liberal policy. The former was, in fact, pro claimed, and the golden era of the first Radama seemed to the missionaries to have come rouna again. If they had misgivings, they did not make them known, and few people had the least idea that the regime of this enlightened Prince was in fact, an anarchy. Owing to the unhealthiness n the sea coast in spring, no intelligence has reached us from Madagascar for the last five months. We are now told that from the first " his views of the duties of a ruler were exceedingly defective ;" that, like Rehoboam, he banished from his councils the old Hovah chiefs, whose memories probably ex tended back to the glorious reign of his father, and surrounded himself with hot-headed and profligate young men ; that he neglected all measures for the suppression or punishment of crime, and fre quently gave himself up to intoxication and debauchery. This degeneracy gradually sapped his popularity, and led to a reaction, headed not by such persons as generally compose the revolutionary faction, but by veteran officers, among whom were the Prime Minister and Commander-in- Chief. Personal jealousy, antipathy of race, and sentiments of patriotism were the motives which combined to animate the leaders of this opposition, and the measure upon which they finally took issue with the King was so monstrous and indefensible that it gives some colour to the statement that he had lost his reason. Private war, and duelling on a scale that" closely resembled private war, had been the curse of Madagascar, as it was once the curse of Europe, and is now the curse of Japan. Instead of putting these lawless practices down with a strong hand King Radama actually issued, or pro posed to issue a decree which legalised them, and promised impunity to the perpetrators. All his old councillors besought him in vain to with draw or cancel it. He positively refused, and, sup ported by the great majority of his " Mena maso" (confidential advisers of the dominant party), re jected the petition presented by a powerful depute- tion of the discontented nobles. This act sealed his fate. The petitioners assembled at the house of the Prime Minister, and resolved to dislodge their rivals by force. During the night of the Bth of May they drew up, like civilised conspirators, a proscription list, containing 33 names. Next morning they re newed their previous demands, in the form of an ultimatum, and, receiving the same answer, de nounced the proscribed favourites to the people, 4ed ordered those of the whe could be found to he put to death. Mean while they again pressed the ultimatum on the King, adding to it the condition treat tae rest, of the rob p ble that Raproscribed dama won laersons should now g iven up. It is be ca e fist point, but he had too have given way on ll' much generosity to concede the second. Again a nd again he insisted on sti,?ulating that, if they were sarrounth d, their lives at lees: should - be spared. At last it was arranged, through the ntervention of he Queen, that they should be confine(; for life in irons. Still the palace was surrounded by troops, and the populace, which had been c,atnorous foi the blood of the prisoners, was not yet satisfied. At i 0 o'clock on the morning on the 12th "it was rumoured that the King was no more." Soon atter midday a ,elute of 21 guns was fired in honour of the new Sovereign, the widowed Queen Rabodo, whose ac • cession was duly notified to the foreign Consuls. The time, mode, and immediate cause of the King's death are still a mystery. A short proclamation was issued : —" The King, inconsolable for the loss of his friends, has perished by his own hands;" but Mr. Ellis, the missionary, agrees with the French Consul in stating that he was strangled by the Minister and his accomplices. The most remarkable part of the story remains to be told. Before the Crown was offered to the Queen, who, to do her justice, is said to have done all in her power to save her husband's life, she was required to sign a paper of conditions, amounting, as Mr. Ellis truly says, to the germ of constitutional Government. She pledged herself not to drink intoxicating liquors, to the use of which the nobles attributed much of Radama's weakness and vice, to legislate and govern in concert with the nobles and heads of the people, to leay duties for revenue purposes, but to encourage commerce, and to grant liberty and protection to foreigners. The punishment of death is to be restored, no doubt in order to check those outrages which the late King declined to sappress, but no one is to be put to death on the order of the Sovereign alone. If Mr. Ellis's extracts from this singular document may be trusted; something very like trial by jury is to be adopted in Madagascar, for no person is to be sen tenced till he has been found guilty by " twelve men." Absolute toleration, and full liberty of wor ship and teaching for native Christians, complete a programme which would not disgrace a limited despotism in more favoured parts of the world. We must hope for the best, but we must not forget that neither in the personal character of half civilised Monarchs, nor in the traditions or habits of half-civilised races, have we any guarantee for the steady maintenance of a principle, however beneficial to themselves. At the same time, it is impossible to deny that this coup d'etat has been effected with a certain moderation and regard for the stability of the Government, if not for the lives and rights of individuals, which is creditable to its authors. It is something that it was not the result of mere passi .n or intrigue of the worst kind, but of a settled conviction that the cause of order was suffering in the hands of the King. The conduct of it was more than a fantastic burlesque of European emeutes, and the prudence shown by the Minister in sending prompt orders for the protection of foreigners to the Governors of the coast is a proof that we have not to deal with reek less barbarians. By this time we may hope that our neighbours have given up their whiaisi4l no tion that "English influence" pavrd the way * th e murder of Radama. The report of the French consul contains no trace of such au impressioq, and tnough Mr. Eats makes a somewhat severe allusion to M. Lambert, the Marquis de Boissy and his friends may rest assured that no coalition !Isis yet been formed between Lords Palmerston and Russell with the triumphant Hovah faction through the medium of the Protestant missionaries HERALD.—If Parliament once assents to the prin ciple of a measure it practically hands over to the BIRMINGHAM-JuLr 9. English wheat was sold at 98s to 568 for white, and 40s to 508 per 36 stone for red. Barley, new malting, 32s to 42s per qr; grinding, 24s to 28s Oats, old, 24s to 30s per 30 stone ; Irish, 22s to 255. Beans, 38s to 44s per qr. Peas, 36s to 44s per 36 stone. EDINBURGH GRAIN-JULY 8. A fair supply of farmers' wheat to-day, which met a slow sale at about the prices of last week. Bailey in good demand, at full prices. Beans a fair sale at rather higher prices. Oats met a dull sale. W heat on the top 2s 6d down average Os 2d down. Barley on the top Os 9d uown average is 4d down. Oats on the top Os 3d down average Os 9d up. Beans on the top is 6d up.. average Os 7d up. Total Supply and Sales. Wheat ... 872 qrs Sold 754 qrs 8ar1ey........ 166 qrs Sold 120 qrs Oats Beans 3l qrs Sold 15 Vl' Flour sells as follows :—Whites, 42s Od ; extras, 40s Od ; superfine, 38s Od ; fine, 36s Od. CORK—JULY 8. The following were the quotations this morning d wheat, 8s Od to —s 01; white, lOs 3d to —s Od , barley, 6. Od to Os Od ; oats, 7s 6d to Os Od. ; black do., 7s 2d to Os Od. DERBY SMITHFIELD—JULY 7. A short supply of fat beasts to-day, the best quality of which was in demand, and last week's prices were readily obtained. The number of sheep and lambs in the pens was smaller. Fat pigs were scarcely an average supply. Fat and store calves were in limited supply, but equal to the demand. Beet Mutton .. Lamb 8/d t o 9d Rough fat, 3s 9d per stone Hides, 3d to 4/d; calf skins. 5d to 6d. Full benefit of reduced duty obtained by pur chasing Horniman's pure Tea ; very choice at 3s 4d. and 4s. " High Standard "at 4s. 4d. (formerly 4s. Bd.), is the strongest and most delicious imported. Agents in every own supply it in rackets. Births. CANtryELL—On the 7th inst., at Knipton Rectory, the Hon. Mrs. A. Campbell, of a son. SKELMERSDALE.—On the Bth inst., at 27, Berkeley-square, the Lady Skelmersdale, of a daughter. SPINKS.—On the 9th inst., at The College, Doetors'-com mans, the wife of Thos. Splnks, D.C.L., of a son. WOODHOUSE.— On the Bth inst., at 62, Cleveland-square, Hyde-park, the wife of Fred. Woodhouse, Esq., of Cal cutta, of a son. Marriages. CONWAY—CURLING.--On the Bth inst., at Upper Clap ton, the Ray. S. Conway, 8.A., of Ongar, Essex, to Atuy, only daughter of James Curling, Esq., of Albion road, Stoke Newington. HUM? HRIES—S OUTHGATE.—On the 7th inst., at Stoke Newington, Joseph J. W. Humphries. of Chadhurst, Dorking, to J ulis, eldest daughter of Henry Soutngate, Esq., of West Hackney, and Fleet-street, London. Deaths. ATKINSON.—On the Bth inst , at his residence, Park street, Ripon, Yorke., William Atkinson, Esq., late of Lloyd's, aged 82. Don. —On the Bth inst., at Rbyl, John W. Dod, Esq., of Cloverley, Shropehire, aged 66. GILL —On the 6th i. st , at Knotty Cross, near Liverpool, Robert Gill, aged 78. MAGILL,—On the 6th inst., at his residence, London, Va- Esq., of Carrickf ergus, co. A ntr i m , ientine W. Magill, Ireland. NAPIER.—OU the sth inst., at Dolton House. Lasswade, Genetal Sir Thomas Ere,kine Napier, K.C.8., youngest son of the late Hon. Charles Napier, of Merchistoun Hall. SULLIVAN —Oa the 9th inst , at Hur s t H ouse , W est Mole sey, Jean Anne, widow of the late Admiral Sir Charles Sultivan, Bart., aged 66. London : Printed and Published by WILLIAM ANDREWS, of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at THE Sux Office, No. 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the :Uvoy, in the County of Bilddletsex. 77 Friday, July 10, 1863,