The Sun. — London, England, 1831-08-19 00:00:00

be denied. King had punish the d.—(He )f course it tiler Powers ce a separa- ace of Lon-. - peace, and 1 have (lone ey had done. ion of hos.- sted against nistice, and to prevent lie ()dieted twci Or (litre rotest of DO negociations ie conference revocable.- - • ration of the b!e, and the ose on which recognised.) e conference ;ian Congreo separation as le nezociation !aye Brusse!st 3wers to pre msures as the 'nee, had shack complained le conference; ;,other arrage. lust have Iwo when on the , ....___ me, indeed, in ire been deter recta ? Against if Holland na^ and complete ney with throe unwarrantabl e sau. Was its 1 , t re that King is of which le' to be already es were not retaining tholle. ossession,, net" Holland ; an d plans was th e , hear, he,i o • l abtful that t irritated leer • cour.try rot say unjuslii t to the day til sl isy were psYi l l f Belgium $ ll he question by loess was in ences of a 1 withstanding isapprobatioa , to withdraw himself jitstik e l &hough bell"' ented to rettl l l responsibility t the confereeq: Ly, or allowed 'forcing te4ei ° ,o which it 1 1 , • ling. a popula l % ad a half. know what pi 8 gs ; and as of Belgiutly 4 j and comP l 7o to Hon. 130 1/ fi j sting to it, ‘ d i trfere with $ Feeling of or s ted in fieth i ce l had exper iee _ c o vas very to leen expresee d .,A, ught that a ato I se would te nd mil in their tl,• to support to to io ' ar)—ancl to Lo rto they had 114 reasons be WI Lronet.—( oeo. :4o explain bis ree7l ion, was bell ° : ; otlerate mew l ' a introduceds; stated their I for related. taking the 19 . 4 i an opporttle'veo ad pursued it o bl rrcd. The .eopold w A as - Id he no rej9o°, tidings up t ° re 119 effect Ir, lalmerston) cc°,,o :herrfore, e 3 ity which the ci Notwiths t3o mold say, thotto4 he documon ts i ito compete 1 1° The pur infe otee intry bad the electo n r l co" but the P r . 1 0' hear.) Va t ' 0 , established, t 1 14;. 1 not reasoll d obliged to ti ,3 ,1 wer, and to o.'o, ;a which th e r l , duced. Flr ‘ti•Oitli Frye would not delay the House by giving full express i on his sentanents respecting the conduct of the King of (land, whom same Hon. Members still vainly called the of the Netherlands. The Hon. Baronet was not te of with an att ac k upon the Belg i an peop l e, b ut h a d Iv . e .o ll t of his w ay, f or the sake of attack i ng h i m (M r. °I WO ; and hail co- fleeted him, with what lie was see to call the left wing of the army of Revolution in lin ' That should not provoke him (Mr. O'Connell) La mu ch of the toil of ,e certain faction in England i a ,:, fl g it t"r)—farthe r than to remind the lion. Baronet, ‘'' lnir. O'Connell's) politics had the sanction of °4 ', 41 1 the counties of England, while those of the i!•,-nimnet himself hat! ably the approbation of seven et ti ta,: . N . yi_t s the lion. Baronet sit . in that Heusi! the t dt at:tt . ki of a large county, which had since rejected t ins politics, lie WAS supported by a majority of ilautity Members of England. Where were they now ? au g ht er.) The Hon. Baronet looked like— i.,e_ IC I last rose of summer left blooming alone, th e tw.elY c of theompanion slion all faded and gone. aronet hail been a" -(Laughter.) , . Bpproved by le Pe°Polttiesl :, l e of En g l an d, he would not have lost his seat.— ki t e ') " ea rs) For his pa r t, h e (Mr. O'Connell) had eer -14 e ndeavour e d to defend the Belgians from the ;°'' whi c h h e h a d h ear d uttere d aga i nst t h em ; i n ' 'ndceed, when the Hon. Baronet attributed the Revo ee , .., e e t ' July to the Jesuits, he (Mr. O'Connell) would -I ' a lte to defend them too, if the charge were such as rejnaer their defence necessary. He would not defend ileaa,its whenever they engaged in national polities, nor ro ee tu rY were aecused of conspiring to overturn the f m i ° „' Charles the Tenth—(Lanehter )- but he would iero "' e rn on the ground of their exertions in favour of . riare, science, and civilization, and for the relief of !laC-Ilhghlmlanity.—(llear.) The Noble Lord complained Nlele t- %King of Rolland was called a tyrant ; but he ,eil 6. 44 why were the Belgians c died rebels ? They Aie s ,i t -n , a ulieeted to Holland without their consent, and a let ed. a t'on was forced upon them which they lied i re tif * : The Belgian Notables, chosen by the King him rittirteti the Constitution by a majority of 795 to 52 w 7 ;,; t etio , notable King—(Laugliter)—decided that 527 a. %t d i TY , and 796 andste minority. —(Laughter.) What i ti l t itis wise benevolent Monarch do to confirm • --Lla upon the allegiance of the Belgians ? Why, r y, ll a iin j to their union with Holland, they had _Tr ! i e al . — by te r 1 u that inestimable right he had abolished. — ear.) d. e , " e' ear .) Whet would the people of England say to ho 4 - ' l ° called that man a wise and benevolent . Monarch d e f t i l i tived his subjects of the right of Trial by Jury, lai t i e rWards p assed a law that w i tnesses s h ou ld n o t be ar.)"carnin e d or confronted with each other ?—(Hear, rte' r3 ut he did not stop there. Ile annihilated the om " 4 the Pr • and much as bad been said about il e at C it i° , l of e D " e ; Potter, it was to be rememberatl °Mi ll e t : a m condemned, not by a Jury, but by Judges 'c ii - ` 1 by the King, and liable to removal at a 'es i tt rl 'a Pleasure—nol nOon examination of wi . t t . i n °Pen Court, but after the confronting of wi - 4 00 , 13 1 :1 7. a e w I l i k : e e . ti abolished by law ; and even then, the King 4 41 - 'gerl to abandon the charge of libel, and to copy an ourf cured li had been held out to him in this c. outiltry-r_ nee coolte men for a conspiracy, when no dehnan e o til ro d be charged upon them.—(Cheer".) A law had , subjecting to various penalties—from six wiis torture with the collar to the punishment of death, ki,,ti'er,vho should publish anything tending to disturb . the liv e n g order of thin s —(Hear.) Under that law thirty :ltt iN,Proseeutions were instituted in one day. He wondered l 'eie the ez-Attorne ' General for England was pleased at I'4 ao outdone. General laughter.) However much the „ t he i t l i t o t i , England might be pleased with the conduct of ' 4 4 t h Xing so far, he (Mr. O'C.) scarcely supposed . t tiellt eipr admiration was quite so great of his treat histiir,Plateincri, whom he displaced.--(Cheers and pot k' t •) Ile did not give them retiring pensions—he did di4i i i -a l r e °nen to the! such refuge for the destitute as hem ate,' Tories were n said to tied here.—(Laughter.) No, ligt: tt ad e them outlaws—h ' e deprived them of all civil `e(L . Surely the Tories would not praise him for that. Oe t laughtr.) He forbade to the Belgians the use of their i ' 4 4 44 ,,, n age- He ordained that the man whose fathers it if -- " c a no other lan itaee than French, and who him °F understood no other g lat: ' • e, should plead in Dutch, ,te "sc e i„ • Willie ew not a word, gn a p g etitio . nin Dutch, and make l a ye t i Dutch.---( Hear.) The King not only . obstructed t er' e ono n'aYs the education of the Catholics, but he in• t li t e n e l: t v„i'll flair religious institutions. But the King v e k ed e auroge the , eof ted riguts the people—not only re i h'iliditl'e Co nstitution, into an acceptance of which he had „Nee t h d r ? er n, - -but, being a King, be went into trade.— 'at ee l. ' -- C - ' l. ') He set up a brewery in one place, a mann rl'hie)C di not set 4 ive himself a monopoly in a third. tax ed trader c ould an ros g er in opposition to the King, who 1-1, i the eorn as it P rw p and the bread whilst in the oven? lituransferred all the " public establishments of Belgium to l'e le , 4,,°&--even the mining establishment., although there tie ti "ut a single mine in the latter country. In there ptt:othere was the same partiality. In the a ffi rm . y ers t he a 41 Y eight Belgian to forty-eight Dutch o t ,at le t -a p ul . e time that two-thirds of the troops . were Belgians. e lle ."g b t Hon. Gentleman concluded amidst very great p eg. i s b_ ir * TREVOR. could not regard the French army . now Bel TREVOR in any other light than as an army of occupation. t ! I r. A. BARING was fully aware o f the greet delicacy b ' " difficulty of th e negot i at i on i n w hi c h the Noble Foreign cretary h a d b een for some time engage d , b ut still thought i e t Noble L or d m i ght be More communicat i ve than lie had . 'en with respect to these negotiations. He, however, Se, - uiti not then enter open a dismission of the respective g• rai of the King of th e N et h er l an d s an d th e B e l g i ans i t the tr ansact i ons w hi c h h ad led to the separat i on of the he es' into a separate kingdom, only to observe that in his l ;.2 , 1 the HOD. an d L earne d M em b er f or K erry h ad been ei qu eneed in ti:e selection of his topics so condemnatory pit4tile personal conduct of the head of the House of Nas oiehY c onsiderations other than those merely political.— sa yz r .) He feared there was a leaven of religious animo e, it l ! the Ilan. Member's statement,—( Hear.) Be that te eti :,,a)a . he w as sure t h at to any b ody of Englishmen it ta t I. ; ne idle to a dd ress vituperative assertions concerning he t b a uee of Orange —a house to which not only England itiete"rope, indeed the whole world at large, was more lib trt "ted for its services on the score of religious and civil Li t ,„ Y titan any other in existence.—(Cheers.) He had aettl-teiofcrt.sided some years in Holland under the govern to i ll , 1 the then Stadtholder, and could take it upon him eee ti , ° rln the Hon, and Learned Gentleman, that in no Per e 4 Y, i u Europe was the administration of justice more I n h i ce would go farther and say, that he should prefer le4te his cause tried in a Dutch Court to not only an hi, 4eourt—_that, ' i n d ee d, wou ld b e t h e l as t any man in a 'el le r' would just now think of entering—(Hear, and 4 t eil e Z e-but to any Court of Justice with which he was ° ltiee tttc , (l in toy part of the world.—(Hear, bear.) 4 rti o „' he felt sat i s fi e d in hie. own mind that the as to th e " a of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, with respect tat leie tna , l 'administration of justice in Holland, would on aete s ,l , "e found to be monstrous exaggerations, if not f l ° l ' it, Y e . ° gross calumny.—(Hear, hear.) One fact spoke is 6%"---the King or olland possessed the affections of I t tt Farr,4. aubjoets to a degree of popularity hardly rivalled ik. - Ivitht111::il-ncl With respyctto the prosecutions of the Press, N ee toe lion. and Learned Gentleman had alluded, to say, that up to the accession of Charles liti te CO t Press of Holland was the freest in Europe; intlee .e d, Ptik,, eYe• sore as such to the neighbouring courts otl had - t e t Y; and that De Potter and Van Ilaylen, who ° P inc e ' Lic,agth prosecuted and punished, were ultra im nit% , -4 ,1 e persons who bad persisted in promulgating opi (lle4r7ich no constitutional authority could overlook.-- th e W.,' He knew not what was the tone or matter of ""e - s e ktl s'ion of the conference which had formally effected bu t 41 P:rati on e of Belgium into an independent kingdom, P r eee e t t . "c Would say, that it was idle to suppose, in the agitated state of the public mind of Europe, that keyeerenee could establish and secure an independent (li e , In, between the French and Dutch frontiers. — into to - ' , . The thing was an impossibility, without taking that uslder ation the 'veil-known maxim of French poecy, gear)lt9iiri e) A ou rn could lie between France and the Rhine. g''' . fte t i u 41, man with the talents of Napo eon liiinsielif, to le e i t Pon the throne of Belgium, would not be able d hall t a t . g uarantee against France. He therefore argu t e l a, , ° efforts of the conference must have recently ttl,..h.R i lettette i t ' l le ti j in . a wrong direction, and he thought that even th emselves must be convinced that . they had not !, t , their object in their attempt to raise a barrier be- Iniee stn French and the Dutch provinces. He was not C e nt' ter into the moral question of such an arrange r.., li i,;: - °rl that he studiously avoided venturing an opinion; nev e b w ee as his conviction that, in a political sense, it would t 4lO ll t ;' 1 1 a better arrangement to have divided . Belgium eter lt e ' s urrounding states, than to have left . It, as at is 4 . ' surrounding a mock sovereignty and a nominal indepeni e`end 6,_,4t Would have been a far better security for H . o - 341 / I s , tlsg:sit;:irt,itl: aggressions of France than the formation a separate and independent nation,— .. a . na- Viett:sinat could not - contend even against the Du ch.— t _ t alit t i r Ons the Opposition.) In using this last expres, , h r e 'o4 e t io riot be supposed that lie intended to cast any sneer l i hrlb ' e Ut elli for a braver people than the Dutch was not, a!eretii 'Tube found inEurope.--(Cheers from both sides. : t i ust p it c ( . l that they would have had a better security' . la e l e c h, e ra , n ee in uniting to Holland that part of Belgium ii,2'stie: - ,'"va, in language, and in feeling, belonged to mie or 11..4,. they would have by forming the different . ei g i nua into a mock sov e reignty. He meant by this, that if they had left Antwerp and the linc of the Scheldt, and the country along the Macse, up to Maas tricht, in the possession of Holland, they would bave left Holland in a far better state of defence against France than that in which she would be placed by the present arrange ment. By giving Antwerp and Maestricht to Holland,— . by giving the Duchy of Luxemburg to the Germanic Con federation, to which it formerly and historically belonged, —and by giving the provinces which bordered on France to that country, they would, in his opinion, have created a system of greater seem ity for the tranquillity of Europe. The provinces which bordered on France, Tourney, and Mons, for instance, wet e French in feeling,—the country from Antwerp to Ostend were, to his knowledge, as de cidedly Dutch in feeling ; and lie believed that in the Duchy of Luxemburg, with the exception of that feeling recently excited by Belgian agitators and French propagan dists, there would he no difficulty in assigning it to some of the powers of Germany. Had the conference gained any thing by pursuing 3 different system ? When they had driven the King of Holland out of Aorta erp, and taken from him the command of the Scheldt, bow long would he be secure in the possession of his Stadtl oldership, —for it was folly to talk of his kingdom, now that they had erected a sovereignty in Belgium for France to walk over whenever cite pleased. By such an arrangement as that which he had proposed, all parties would have been quieted; but what was the ease now? France remained under the impression that Belgium, at some time or other, must still belong to her. If the Noble Lord could get the army of Marshal Gerard out of Belgium, which he admitted would be a great act, almost a master stroke at diplomacy --(Loud cries of " hear," from the Opposition) still sup posing the Noble Lord should be able to do that, of what value must the tenure of that sovereignty of Belgium be, when it could be encroached on, if not destroyed, by Frani e at any moment she pleased ?—(Hear, bear.) When they gave France the command of the fortresses on the BA gian frontier, as he was afraid that they had done already, —when they gave her the means of occupying Antwerp, they placed her in a situation which gave her command ❑ot only over the navigation of the Scheldt, but also over the whole of Holland. Now; if . they had given Antwerp and Mae,tticht to Holland, they would - have formed • Holland into a power, not, perhaps, capable of resisting France successfully by herself, but capable of resisting France until the rest of the Powers of Europe came to her aid, if any of them were inclined to join in her quarrel. Undoubtedly the arrangement made by the treaty of Vienna for the union of the two countries of Holland and Belgium was not satisfactory ; but still, with all the _ . knowledge which they had since derived of the subject from experience, he must say, that it would have been matter of extreme difficulty to have made any other. 'The course which he had ventured to suggest, as that which, _ _ politically speaking, would be most advantageous, had also this advantage,—that it would not only be in accordance with the interests of tile five Powers, but also in accord ance with the interests of the Belgians themselves. There was now a great nation looking upon Belgium as a priv, of which they could make themselves masers at any time they pleased. Belgium, a weak. country, would have a still weaker country behind it, and that weaker country animated with all the rancour of a discarded friend. Now, in the range of country situate between Ostend and Antwerp, theta was a large manufacturing popu lation, which under the new arrangements would not have any outlet for their manufactured produce; for the Dutch on the one side, and the French On the other, would not let the manufactures of Belgium enter into their respective territories. Hon. Gentlemen would perceive the distress which this state of things must inevi tably create, if they would only censider the state to which Manchester, and Birmingham, and Sheffield must be re duced, if a wall were built around those towns, and nothing permitted to pass without it which had been manufactured within it. The provin6es which would naturally have gone to Holland contained the towns of Antwerp, Ghent, and Ostend, all which towns were places of commerce, had formed connections with the colonies of Holland, and were anxious to retain them. Hence it was, that during all the excitements which had recently prevailed, those three towns had always been desirous to belong to the Dutch.—(Hear.) He was convinced that no peace would prevail either in Belgium or in Europe, until some such arrangement as that which he had taken the liberty of suggesting was carried into effect.—(Great cheering from the Opposition.) Mr. lIUME expressed his regret that he should have lived to see the day on which a Member of a British house of Commons dared to rise in his place to advise the partition of an independent nation.—(Cheers.) The ar gument which the Hon. Member for Callington had just I used, was the same argument which had been used by the unprincipled despots who had perpetrated the atrocious partition of Poland. He trusted that the doctrines which the Hon. Member had that night advanced would not find many supporters in that House ; for what had been the course of the Hon. Member's argument? First of all, he had approved of the treaty of Vienna, which united two nations in a political marriage without asking the consent of either party, and then he had concluded by proposing to partition Belgium among the surrounding States, for the stale plea of preserving the tranquillity of Europe,—the very plea which had been urged in the case of the atrocious aggression on the independence of Poland.—(Cheers.) The Hon. Member had then pro ceeded to express his disbelief ih the statements contained in the eloquent and masterly speech of his Hon. anal Learned Friend the Member for Kerry. Now he would undertake to say, from his own soul ces of information, that although the statements of his Hon. and Learned Friend might be exaggerated in some respects, there was not one of them which was not founded in fact. He (Mr. Hume) denied that the people of Belgium were' the fickle, unprincipled, and discontented people, which the Hon. Member had represented them to be. He was as much mistaken in his facts as in the arguments which he had deduced from them ; for De Potter land not been ex pelled from the Government which he bad formed for his countrymen, nor had Van Helen been sentenced to impri sonment for his successful defence of Brussels. On the contrary, De Potter had voluntarily resigned his office, and Van Halen was now in the receipt of a liberal pension from the people he had defended. Mr. BARING said a few words in explanation, but they were almost inaudiiale in the gallery. We understood laim to say that he had expressly put out of view the morality of the arrangement which he had proposed—he had only spoken of its political advantages. Sir It. PEEL was not at all surprised that his Hon. Friend, the Member for Oakhampton, should think that the time was at length arrived when it was fitting that the House of Commons of England should have its attention drawn to the state of its foreign policy.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) He was not surprised, that at a period when the popular assembly of every country in Europe which had a popular assembly had its attention exclusively directed, not to the changes to be made in its Constitution—(Loud cheers from theOpposition)—but to the momentous circum stances which threatened the independence and the tranquil lity of Europe ; he was not surprised, be said, that at such a period—when the Ministers of other Powers imposed upon themselves no reserve, either as to their own intentions or the intentions of other nations, sn independent Member of Parliament, contracting no official responsibility and labouring under no official obligations, should think that the time was at length arrived in which it was incumbent that the only popular Assembly in Europe silent on such interesting topics should not be the British House of Com mons.—(Cheers.) No doubt premature disclosures had their objections, but complete indifference, perfect passive ness, and utter silence had their objections also.—(Great cheering from the Opposition.) His Noble Friend, the Foreign Secretary, acting upon his responsibility as a 'Mi nister, had declared he was precluded by paramount con siderations of duty from entering into any discussion upon this subject. If his Noble Friend told him the time was not yet come in which he could vindicate himself from the charges of his opponents without making disclosures which might prove injurious to the. public service, then, as there would be something ungenerous in making such charges against him, he would bridle in his own feelings, and ab stain from calling for certain explanations which he thought his Noble Friend ought to be called upon to give. Whilst he abstained from making such charges, he was bound in justice to himself to say, that in the whole of the annals of England never was there a case which so impe. riously demanded explanation—(Loud cheers from the Op ' position)—never was there a series of transactions on which, at a period when the Members of his Majesty's Government should be released from the obligations of secrecy, it would be more incumbent on them to vindicate themselves from. the charges which had been brought against theta.—(Cheers continued from the same quarter.) He could not forget that there was, in support of the statement of his Noble Friend, the peculiar hour, the cri tical moment, at which this discussion was taking place. His Noble Friend had complained of the numerous ques• ;.ions put to him from the Opposition TheysideoofrtihgienaTd it House on the subject of our foreign p olic y , an anxious desire to promote the interest and the honour of the country, not in any desire to embarrass the Govern tnent,—(An Hon. Member on the Ministerial benches in dulged in a very audible laugh at this naive declaration.) The Hon. G e ntlemen who smiled at this observation, might have unlimited confidence in his Majesty's Government. Did the Haan. Member think that at a moment when the King of France had declared in the speech with which alt- ie opened his Chambers, that the tri -coloured Hag was flo lig on the walls of Lisboa,—at a moment when the French army was occupying the fortresses in the Nether lands,—at a moment when, according to appearances, the only signs of military activity on the p trt of the •Briti.li Government were directed against its two most ancient allies, Piirtueal and Holland—(Loud cheers from the Op pesition)—did the Hon. Member think that such was the moment at which men who were anxious for the interests, and still more anxious for ti e honour of England, were to b.a precluded from seeking information from Government? Government hail always a right—and he did not mean to find fiult with them for exerc'sing the right—to refuse to give an answer to the questions which might be put to it. —( Here the Right Hon. Baronet was disturbed by the cry el " ('rder, order," raised by some gentleman in his im mediate vicinity.) The lion. Gentleman gave him an interruption by his repeated calls for order far more an noying than the disturbance of the gentlemen whom he wished to control. - Mr. HUME rose to order. It was not his Hon. Friend that had created this interruption, it was the cheering of some of the Right Hon. Baronet's friends, then sitting around him.—(Cheers.) An lION. MEMBER. seated just below Mr. Hume like wise rose to order. He felt it necessary to state that the disorder bad been occasioned by the proceedings of t'ee Hen. Alderman below him, the Member for the city of London.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) Mr. Alderman WOOD rose in contradiction of the as sertion just made by the preceding speaker. We under stood him to say that be had interfered because he had and an Hon. Member say with an oath that " such lan guage never yet came out of the mouth of man." Sir R. PEEL would feel obliged to Hon. Members if they would place him without further delay in the place in which he was before the interruption. What was the moment which his lien. Friend had selected to put his question ? It was the moment when France was occupying a part of the fortresses of Belgium, and when, in answer to questions put to his Noble Friend from the Opposition side of the 'House, the statement of the Government was this,—a statement which he bad not yet beard contra, dieted or qualified—a statem' nt which he had head with the greatest satisfaction, and which he hoped would be verified in fact—namely, that the Government had re ceived assurances and engagements from the King of France, on which they could rely, that on the withdrawal of the Dutch troops from the Netherlands into Holland, the French troops would also he withdrawn from Belgium into France. That, he understood, was the answer given on a former evening by his Noble Friend, the Foreign Secretary, to a question put to him by his Honourable Friend ; the Member for Okehampton.—( Hear.) He trusted that there would be no necessity to qualify that answer hereafter ; but such being the answer of his Noble Friend, he was convinced that the period was so critical as to afford ample confirmation for his (Lord Palmerston's) -declaration, that he was precluded froin entering into zny discuss" n. At a period so critical there was no medium between no discussion and discussion the most ample. He should therefore follow the example of his Noble • Friend, and enter into no discussion on this topic. He should not follow his Hon-Friend near him into the discussion of the policy which was. adopted to wards Belgium and Holland, in the treaties made at Vi enna in the year ISIS, nor into the discussion of the policy which be (Mr. Baring) fancied ought to be pursued towards them now ; for, he could nut enter into such a discussion without transgressing the principle which he had just laid down. He rejoiced to see his Hon. Friend the Member for Okehampton, once more in his place. Even if his Noble Friend (Lard Palmerston), had been prepared for such a discussion as that into.which.his Hon. Friend (Sir R. Vyvyan)wished to draw him, he (Sir Peel) should not have thought it necessary to discuss the conduct of the King of Holland to the Netherlands ; for though he conscientiously believed that the conduct of the King of Holland had barn universally animated by a desire to promote the prosperity and happiness of Belgium, and that for the fifteen years of his rule the inhabitants of Belgium had enjoyed a degree of prosperity, liberty, and independence, which they bad never enjoyed at any past • period of their history.—(Cheers.) Yet, as a separation had been decided on between them, and as any attempt to re-est ablish their union would be impracticable in consequence of all the Powers of Europe having con curred unanimously with Belgium and Holland that a final separation should take place between them, be did not see any necessity for arguing - on this cccasien respecting the conduct of the King of Holland. He would avow at' once that he pieced no confidence in the statements of the speech of the Hon. and Learned •Meariber for Kerry. He considered him as a prejudiced, a most prejudiced witness. —(Great cheering from the Opposition.) He recollected the attempts made by that lion, and Learned Member to effect a similar separation between two other countries nearer our own homes.—(Loud cheering.) Mr. O'CONNELL vociferated " No." Sir R. PEEL—The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said no :—why, had not his war-cry for some months, past been for a repeal of the Union between Great Britain . and Ireland ?—(Cheers.) Mr. O'CONNELL had advocated the repeal of the Union, but not the separation of the two countries. Sir R. PEEL—The repeal of the Union then was ad mitted. Why, all that he had charged the Hon. and Learned Gentleman with was, that he had made attempts to dissever the Union now happily existing between the two countries, and when he heard the members of his Majesty's Government cheering the lion. and Learned Gentleman—(Great cheering from the Opposition)—and rejoicing in the success of tie attack which he had made on the King of Holland—(Cheering continued)—he (Sir R. Peel) could not help recollecting that they had vindicated their renewal of the yeomanry farce in Ireland upon the principle that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was at tempting to repeal the Union.—(Cheers repeated.) How did he know that the details into which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had entered were correct?—(Hear, hear.) H a d he not heard the lion. and Learned Gentleman speaking of facts which he stated had occurred in Ireland within the last fourteen days, and declaring that an officer of the Crown had publicly avowed that he had received instruc tions in some late prosecutions to challenge every Roman justice an e ; accu sation but Catholic or liberal Protestant who mi g ht be called to serve on the Jury?—(Hear, hear.) A more g rievous char g e againstof a i G n t o e v r e fo r , n i t u n 4 e rtivt witty not pn ittbeeemonardsee,of jti was as soon as he (Sir R. Peel) heard it, he declared his con viction that it was without foundation. If the Hon. and Learned Gentleman could in one case state that which he believed to be true, but in which the Hon. and Learned Solicitor-General for Ireland had proved by incontestable documents that be (Mr. O'Connell) was misinformed, — if the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was so imperfect a witness on circumstances occurring so lately in Ireland, and in the profession, too, to shish he himself belonged, might not he (Sir R. Peel) infer that his statements of what occurred in a foreign country were, to use the phrase of the Hon. Member for Middlesex, all facts, but much exaggerated?_(" Hear," and a laugh.) Mr. HUME asserted that he had not used the words " much exaggerated," be had only said " highly coloured." —(A laugh) • Sir R. PEEL pet sisted that the words used by the Hon. Member were "much exaggerated." He recollected them well. The Hon. Member said "much exaggerated," hut he (Sir R. Peel) would take the version which the Hon. Member now gave; for it would suit his purpose equally well. What a miserable dispute was this about words! As if a high colouring was not a statement by which a false impression was given to facts, admitted to have occurred !---(Hear, hear.) But, said the Hon. Member for Middlesex, " There is nut a word in the speech of my Hon. and Learned Friend, the Member for Kerry, from which it could be inferred that, though be deemed him a bad King for Belgium, he deemed him a had King for Holland." Why, what a notion must the lion. Member have of Dutch and Belgian subjects, when lie supposed the King of Holland could act well by one part of his country, and ill by the other. The . Hon. and Learned Member (Mr. O'Connell) had thought proper to taunt and insult him and his late colleagues ; what right, what ground had he to apply to them those taunts and in sults? They might have been driven from office, but there was not one amongst them who would have conde scended to repair his shattered fortunes by wringing a con tribution from the pockets of the poor peasants of Ireland. —(Tremendous cheering, which lasted some seconds.) They had taken no course in their public life which ought to have exposed them to the taunts and insults of the Hen. Member, which had been as unprovoked as they were undeserved.—(Loud cheers.) Mr. Alderman WOOD explained, He was not the per sonwho inter ru pt e d th e Right Hon. Baronet. He wa s merely making a remark to an lion. Member near him.-- (A laugh.) He had heard an offensive remark from the Hon. Member for Heslemere. There, he heard it again. Mr. O'CONNELL explained. He wished to set the Right Hon. Baronet right as to fact. The•statement to which lie had alluded as made by him (Mr. O'Connell) had been first made by the Member for Kilkenny. The Hon. and Learned Member was proceeding to notice the concluding remarks of the Right Hon. Baronet, when he was interrupted by cries of " Spoke." Mr. HUNT said, this was a question of peace or war, and if any time was proper for discussing it, this was the time. The Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Vyvyan) had a ttacked the French Government as bad as any other Hon. Members - had attacked the King of-Holland. He had call the French " bullies," and "braggadocios," and said that the way to meet them was to put on a bold front. Did he expect we were to go to war ? With whom ?. From what he (Mr. Hunt) knew of the people of England, there was nothing to which they were so averse as war. He hoped the French would keep possession of the fortresses of Belgium —(Hear)—till the King of Holland had learnt a lesson which should prevent him from ever entering Belgium again._( w ar .) He hoped the" mock King" would not be sent back to England, but that lie woutt live and reign in Belgium.—(Cries of " Question.' ) He would come to the point presently. He thought it would be imprudent in the Government to gm to war ; awl if they did, the money must conic out of the pbckets of the rich, for the poor could not pay. Sir R. R. VYVYAN, in reply, observed that as his Noble Friend was disinclined to produce the papers, on the ground that they would lead to improper disclosures, he would not press his motion. He had not caller! the French army or the French Government " bullies." He had said that there was a secret party urging the Goveynment to measures which might produce a general war, and he thought it was proper to assume a bold front against that Rtrty. His object had been to call the attention of the House to the subject, in order that his Majesty's Govern ment might see that they could depend upon support in de fending the interests of the country. The motion was than withdrawn. REFORM BILL. Lord ALTHORP moved that the House do resolve it self into a Committee on the Reform Bill. On the question that the SPEAKER do leave the chair, Mr. KENYON rose to move, that it he an instruction to the Committee to make provision for further in crease of the number of Knights to serve in Parlia ment for the different counties in the Principality of Wales. The Hon. Member spoke for some time; but owing to the noise in the House, and the indistinct tone in which he spoke, scarcely a sentence could be heard in the gallery. The SPEAKER said, that the motion which had been made was not subject for an instruction to the Committee, but was referrable to clause 13 in the Bill, which had al ready pasetl.. After a few words from Mr. WYNN, which were not audible, The SPEAKER stated, that there were two kinds of -instructions,—one to enable the Committee to do that which it could not otherwise do, and the other was of a mandatory character, and compulsory upon the Committee. The instructions moved by the Hon. Member did not be long to the former class ; and he therefore wished time Hon: Member to say whether he meant his instruction as a mandrory one? Mr. KENYON replied that he did. Lord ALTHORP thought that Wales had no right to complain of the provisions of the Bill, because her repre sentatives had, in fact, been increased. Glatnorganshire was to return two Members, and the reason why the other counties were not allowed so large a share of representation was; because they were not considered sufficiently wealthy and important. He therefore objected to the present in struction; but he did not mean, on-that account, to pledge himself not to consider the point before the Bill should be rep tIl-lieo S o n i r .N r t NNmel Larditr I(‘t withdraw and erar pw)l hislhr. a s gt - No declaredux r i e n c o c n o l n m s eecinud himselfeen i e e t 0t 1e not precluded from reconsidering the subject. Mr. KENYON accordingly withdrew his motion ; and the House resolved into a Committee on the REFORM BILL. The question before the Committee was the continuation of clause 16, to which several verbal amendments were proposed and agreed to. Colentl WOOD said, that by agreeing to these amend ments, the House was allowing tbat p irt of the clause which created so much discussion last night to pass with out observaton. Lord ALTHORP said that at the conclusion of the clause he should propose a proviso for the purpose of re medying those inconveniences which were complained of last night. There being three different amendments given notice of with respect to this clause, some conversation took place upon the order of proceeding ; and it was finally settled, upon the suggestion of LordAlthorp, that Colonel Sibtliorpe should have the precedence. Colonel SIBTHORPE stated that it was his intention - to move the insertion of the following words in the clause : " That all bona fide tenants and occupiers of land (not being freeholders, copyholders, or leaseholders), who shall hold any number of acres situate within the several counties or divisions of counties, for which asy election for knights of tie shire to . Parliament should be at any time hereafter made, the annual rental whereof shall not be un der or less than 501. per annum, free from and clear of all charges and deductions- whatsoever, such tenants and occu piers as aforesaid shall be and are hereafter entitled to vote at any such elections for knights of the shire for any such county, or division of counties, in which lands are situ ated; providing they each and severally so claiming to vote have, bona fide, been in actual possession of such lands as aforesaid for a period of not less than one entire year preceding any registration as may be hereafter directed and required to be made, touching the right of voting at elections." He said that he did not anticipate to carry his proposition to a successful issue; but yet he was de termined to proceed through all the difficulties of his situa tion, and, if necessary, to take the sense of the House, by division, on the question. He regarded it as exceedingly unjust, th a t while the elective franchise for counties was give n t o copyholders and leaseholders at 10/. per annum, the class included in his amendment, which in point of respectability, intelligence, and contribution to the neces sities o f the State, was not to be surpassed by any other e body i n the community , was alone marked out to he cast ad g completelyive the elective b se aside and stigmatized. The class to which he p r oposed to e o t was perfectly l of any G independent,overn,r.n Government. n The Noble Lord pr o p osed to g ive the ri g ht of votin g to 378,786 101. renters in towns. As a counter p ois e to the new power, he conside red it ex p edient to g ive t he right of a rent of 5 0 /. He concluded with moving voti ng for the election of Members for counti es to tenants a at h at will, paying his atnendment. The CHAIRMAN asked the Hon. Member where he proposed to introduce hie amendment? No answer. being given to this question, a Member called out bring it in any where," which produced some merriment. The CHAIRMAN then requested the Hon. Member fo r Lincoln to advance to the table and point out where he wished his amendment to be introduced. Colonel SIBTHORPE accordingly proceeded, to the tabl e , a nd conversed with the Chairman for a considerable time, during which much confusion prevailed in the Com mittee. At length , Mr. WESTERN rose, and said that in his opinion the Committee had not arrived at that part of the clause in whi c h the Hon. Member's amendment should be Lin colnintro- duced- had fallen into a mistake in p ro p osin g his amendment at that period . Ti e CHAIR MAN said, that the Hon. Member for The Hon. Member did not object to the clause.—(A laugh, and cries of " Go on.") Colonel SIB THORPE admitted that he had committed an error, partly owing to the suggestion of the Noble Lord (Althorp), and partly on account of the anxiety which he felt on the subject to which his amendment referred.— (Hear.) He would withdraw his amendment for the present. Colonel WOOD was of opinion that the Hon. and Gal lant Member had selected the proper period for proposing his amendment, and hoped that he would persevere with it. The Marquis of CHANDOS had the same object in v i e w as the Hon. and Gallant Member for Lincoln, — namely, to have justice done to the agricultural interest, He thought that a farmer paying a rental of 401. per an num ought at least to be put on an equality with a 10/. householder, and that be would prove to be as good and h ,6Bwt) o rior n tierut e dimt s ssi t hoo:ri a_ vf aevr7otm,htaeTeasrrth. there boe l oalu t . unel should was persont oo s desirable i tnsbbeeer tlost eodccif ramed.uns pi gtty occupying t the i goe flaalwniuedshe fenlanyttrhormareuenil following deo t of the farming tool Ci e:rhone is such shalll an o wn account, l an d at a rent not l ess t h an 50/. b y t h e year, although w i t h out any spec ifi c tenure o f hi s l an d, shall be entitled to vo t e at e l ect i ons f or k n i g ht s of the shire, wherein uc havet ll u occupant d be is e s n i t t i t t i l a e t rl e, to p v m o v te idei until been one year in bona fide possession of the land." The CHAIRNIAN said that the Committee had not yet arrived at the part of the clause where the Noble Mar quis's amendment should be introduced. The only ques tion before the Committee was, that the blank in the clause be filled up with the words " 60 years." Mr. CRESSET PELHAM said that the confusion in the Committee was so great as to render it impossible to understand whet was going on. A conversation which lasted for a considerable time now arose as to the course of proceeding, and at last it was ar ranged that Lord Milton should move his amendment first. Lord MILTON then rose to move the omission of that part of the clause which extended the right of voting in counties to leaseholders at rack-rent. It BP 'teased to him, as had been stated on a former occa sion by the Honourable and Learned Member for Cockermouth that a lease for seven years whereon there was a reserved rent of 50/. was not likely to produce that wealth which would enable the possessor to act in . a manner IMO perfectly independent. In his opinion the electioneering and the aOcultural interest would not agree well together. Those who knew any thing of Ireland must he aware of the manner in which the system recognized by this clause had worked in that country. Circumstances might just - fy its introduction there; but there was no necessity for its adoption here, where there was a very large con feituency of freeholders. If the claws were agreed to, it would be adding 25 or 30 per cent. to a constituency al r.!ttly ve• y numerous. The Noble Lord concluded by m wing his amendment. Sir E. B. SUGDEN said, that every one of the objec tions of the Noble Lord both on this and the preceding n;ght, was founded on the necessity of respecting derivative rihts, which rights, it should be observed, were those which individuals connected with boroughs and towns that would be affected by this Bill complained of as being in vaded by the measure. Now he could not conceiVe how the Noble Lord, who was willing to give the right of voting !o persons holding houses from year to year, could refuse .t to the substantial renter of land. Was it to be sup posed, that the tenant from year to year, nay from week to week. paying 3s. 6d. a week, could not be corrupted, white the reverse would be the case with the extensive farmer? He was certain that where this sort of weekly tenancy existed, there would also be a covenant for a weekly n >Lice to quit. Why, then, could it be asserted, that the 101. householders, if they were subject to his i licence, deserved to exercise the elective franchise more than the leaseholders and copyhol lets ? But what did all those alterations come to? The late elections proved that the English Constitution, as it now stood, without any of these new-fangled changes, enabled the people to return whomsoever they pleased.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord wished to exclude a certain class of lease- h elders. Now he would suppose a farmer taking land, on which there was a reserved rent of 50/. a year, the indi vidual so taking that land would be subject to an outlay of 400/. or 500/. ; and would any individual p'ace in com petition with him a householder of 10/. a-year, paying, perhaps, his 3s. 6d. weekly ? In agreeing to the clause Ls it stood, nothing more was done thin placing a certain &ass of the landed interest on a footing with the house holder. Lord ALTHORP objected to the amendment of his Noble Friend, as well as to the proposition which the Noble Marquis opposite had given notice of his intention to introduce. With respect to the latter, be would, when the proper time arrived, state his reasons fur dissenting fr o m it. He could not conclude, from any thing which h ►d fallen from his Noble Friend, that individuals holding leases for a term of sixty years or of ninety-nine years, were not as likely to be independent as he who held for a term of lives. Mr. A. BARING did not approve of the amendment of his Noble Friend. He would suppose the case of a res pectable farmer, renting land to the extent of 1,0001. a year, which had been occupied by his family for perhaps two centuries ; bow would that individual feel if he were not allowed the right of voting, when the cot tigers around him, and employed by himself, holding their tenements for lives, had that privilege granted to them ? The framers of this Bill, he must say, had devised the most complicated sys'em of voting that the human mind could imagine. Votes were to be given on account of leasehold tenure and on account of copyhold tenure. The consequence was, that it would give em ployment to the lawyers throughout the country, to settle disputed rights and claims. This had been called a landlord's Bill, but he believed that it would turn out to be an attorney's Bill.—(A laugh.) The best course would be to sweep the whole of the rubbish away, and to adopt some clear and simp'e principle of qualification. In his opinion, no set of men were more fit to enjoy the elec tive franchise than the respectable farmers. Lord MILTON briefly explained. Mr. HUNT said the Hon. Gentleman opposite had oh served, that this would be an attorney's Bill Now who, in the case of county elections wou!d be the attorne y ? Why, ss it was at present, the steward of the Hon. Mem ber, or of any other man who had extensive influence in any given county. The steward was always sent round to direct the voters to whom they should give their suffrage; and he believed there were no men in the country more subject to this kind of influence than the poor forty-shil ling freeholders. As to the motion before the House, he would vote for the extension of the franchise to farmers, for his principle was, that every man should have a vote, and of course he would not exclude that respectable and useful body ; but if he were asked why he gave a vote that would throw the influence into the hands of the landlord, he would answer, it was because be was sure they would never have another election after this without being obliged to resort to the ballot. Strangers were now excluded ; but we understand that the amendment was negatived without a division_ On our return to the gallery we fotind the House still in the Committee, and the CHAIRMAN putting the ques tion, that the blank in cruse 16, page 4, last line, be filled up with the words" sixty years."—This was agreed to. The next question was, that in the passage in the same clause " of the yearly value of not less than above reprizes," the blank be filled up with the words " ten pounds."—This was agreed to. The next question was, that these words stand part of the clause, " or demised for any term not less than seven years, (whether determinable on a life or lives or not,) whereon a yearly rent of not less than 501. shall have been reserved, or for which a fine or premium of not less than pounds shall have been paid, shall have a right to vote in the election of a knight or knights of the shire to serve in any future Parliament, or fur the part, riding, or division of the county as hereinbcfore mentioned, in which such lands or tenements shall be respectively situate." The Marquis of CHANDOS said that be was glad they had now come to that part - of the clause in which he might move his clause without any irregularity. So much had been already said upon the subject, that he would not then detain the Committee by any remarks en its support. He was glad that as they extended the franchise to the 10/. householder, they had also given it to the 10/. leaseholder; but he thought they should also give it to the farmer occu pying, though without lease, land for which he paid 501. a year; for these he considered as independent a class of men as any that could be found in counties. He did not think the Noble Lord (Milton), the Member for North amptonshire, was right in doubting the independence of the farmers ; for he thought that in other places they would be found as independent as lie (the Marquis of Chandol) had found them in Buckingham. He would now, without further observation, move his amendment, and leave it altogether in the hands of the Committee. The Noble Lord then moved that all the words in the above•men . tioned part of the clause, from the word " or" to the word " paid," be omitted, and the following be substituted,— " any person occupying or farming on his own account, land at a rent not less than 50/. by the year, although without any specific tenure of his land, and not being less than one year in the bona fide occupation of such land." Mr. WESTERN expressed his decided approbation of the amendment of the Noble Lord ; and if the amendment of the Gallant Colonel (Sibthorpe), which went to the same effect, had precedence of that of the Noble Lord, be would give it the same support. In giving his approbation to this amendment, he was nut supporting any thing which was hostile to the principle of the Bill. On the contrary, he thought he was acting in accordance with, and in furtherance of that principle, in advocating the proposi .tion now before the Committee, and he owned that he was at a loss for the reason on which his Noble Friend (Lord Milton) near him should doubt that the farmers and occupiers of land were not as likely to be independent as any other class to whom the franchise was extended. His own opinion, and it was founded on an extensive acquaint ance with that class of men, was, that a more intelligent or more independent body of men did not exist in the scale of society. He would not say that the great body of the tenantry of the country had always been of that descrip tion, but the times were now changed ; the middle classes of society were more enlightened; their feelings and habits were in every respect improved. It-was said that the tendency of such a proposition as that of the Noble Lord (Chandos) would. be to throw the representation of the counties into the hands of the oligarchy ; but let it be res. collected that the lands of this country were not now in the bands of a few grandees. The landed proprietors now con sisted of men of all classes ; and one effect was, that the occupiers of land were in general a more intelligent, more independent, and more important class. Indeed, he knew of no class of men to whom the elective franchise could with mote propriety be intrusted than the occupiers of the soil. The question was, whether the exercise of the elec tive franchise would make them less independent than they now were. In his opinion it would dioainish their inde tsooidneenyHtohna.t they Were Memberss a e t e to d pe e n pe d n e d n e c n e, fo dependent body chink. In the present state of the country a good tenant was as nece , sary to the landlord as the landlord was to him. There was a reciprocity of feeling between them, a nd every man possesied of l au d mus t fe e l the value of d h y e which begged an honest and respectable tenant.—(Hear, hear.) He would repeat that a more intelligent class of man,—men more devotedly loyal and attached to the Constitution— did not exist. They understood the interests of the country well, and were sincerely attached to its Constitn- He would not detain the Committee further, or go now into an inquiry 'as to the comparative importance of the class of men included in the Noble Lord's amendment, and the 40s. freeholders. All he would say was, that tion. ".y farmers in the country held large tracts of lam/ without any lease, and if the franchise were limited to the easeholder of seven years, it. would exclude not only men Iwho held lands at a rent of 501., but in many instancis of 500/. a year. On these grounds be would give his cordial support to the amendment of the Noble Lord. Lord ALTHORP said, he would briefly state the ner e these,—first, which, grounds on which he should ob j ect to the Noble Lord's a mendment. The arguments o n which it was founded t h e m fir s t a that e the nd m land e d amendment in tpl implied ; a interest oi required next, that influence t ha t it would be hard OH the occupiers of land that you should sive the franchise to the ten•pound householder, and ex elude it from that class of men who paid 501. rent for load. This he believed was a fair statement of the argument, The lloble Lord, however, in the wording of his amend ment, had, he believed gone to an extent which he himself did not intend ; for, as the clause would stand, if that amendment were adopted, all leaseholders would be ex cluded svho were not farmers or occupiers of land ; and he presumed that the Noble Loffl did not intend by it to exclude leaseholders of other property. Having said thus much as to the wording of t'”t , amendment, he would now state his grounds of objection to it. No man understood Letter than he did, the respectability of the farmers. Few men knew' more about them, or had a higher opinion of their intelligence and integrity. But the question was, were they in such a situation as would ensure the same in— dependence as to their votes as might be expected from freeholders. The Committee were not now called upon to decide upon their respectability, but whether they were in that situation which would make them independent county electors. The argument was, that you gave the ten pound householder in the borough a right to vote, and you ought on the same principle to give to farmers p tying a certain rent a right to vote for the county; but then it should be recollected that there was always a great distinction between the right of voting in boroughs and counties. There was also this distinction, that it was in power of the landlord of the farmer to do his tenant a greater injury than the landlord of the householder could do to his. The circumstances in which they mre placed with respect to their landlords were wholly different. It was urged on the part of the occu pier of land, that be was a man of some capital, that it often happened that the occupier of land paying a rent of 501 a year, had embarked a capital of 5001_ or 6001. on that land, though without any lease, and only a tenant at will. That might be, and he bad no doubt it was so in _ _ a great many instances, but see how this operated as be tween him and his landlord. If a man thus circumstanced should vote contrary to the wish of his landlord, and be was tinned out for it, he would lose all the capital he had embarked in the land. He would not of course lose his . . stock or his crops, but he would lose all that he had ex pended in its improvement ; and all who were acquainted with the nature of land, and the employment of capital upon it, must be aware of the inconvenience and loss • which a tenant must be put to if obliged to quit at a short notice, when he had calculated upon a longer possession. Now all these circumstances were so many motives which must make such a tenant de• pendent on the will of his landlord, and which must, in the same degree, detract from his independence as an elector. It was said that the leaseholder of seven years must. be neatly in the same situation, for, to wards the expiration of his term he must be nearly as much in the power of his landlord as the tenant at will. Ile (Lord Althorp) did not think so. The leaseholder of seven years so employed his capital as to get out of the land the value of the capital he had embarked in it, within the time for which this lease was given, and for this time be was independent of the landlord. He would admit, at the same time, that seven years was the lowest term under which the holder of land could be looked to as independent of Isis landlord ; but if that were so, then the independence of the tenant. at-will could not be counted on. Look, how ever, to the householder who carried on business in a shop in a town. It, would, no doubt, be an inconvenience to such a man to be removed from a place where he had car ried on his busine*s; but in removing be could early all, or nearly all, his business with him, and could remove the whole of his stock ; and in that respect be was much more independent of his landlord than the fanner. These was another distinction between the two classes, which was, that the country votes represented property, and those in towns represented interests. Now if the fran chise should not be given to farmers to the extent propos d by the Noble Lord, it could not be said that they were not placed in a better situation than they were before, as compared with the scot and lot voters in towns ; for fvbile the franchise was taken from many of the latter class who hitherto held it, it was given to a large body of the former by whom it had heretofore ~ not been enjoyed. He thought that the tenantry stichzas • were proposed to be included in the extension of the fran chise by this Bill, were fully entitled to have a vote for the county ; but he could not concur with those who thought that the same right ought to be extended to tenants at will. There was another ground on which be objected to this proposition, which probably would have less weight ' with others than it had with him. It was this,—that if you put the tenants at will in a situation where they might vote against their landlords, you would go one step towards the introduction of the vote by ballot, and he owned that he was surprised at his Hon. Friend, the Member for Essex, whom he knew to have so strong an objection to that system, in supporting a proposition which led so directly to it. On these grounds he felt it his duty to oppose the proposition of the Noble Lord, though he owned he did so with regret. He knew that his own constituents were very anxious for the introduction of such a clause, but with every good feeling towards them, he must say that in wishing for it they did not understand their own interests. He felt it his duty to oppose this wish of many of his constituents, but such was the respect and affection he felt for the farmers, that he did oppose it with much personal regret. Colonel SIBTHORPEI expressed the gratitude he felt to the lion. Member for Essex, for the cautious manner in which he had expressed his di-position to vote for his pro position if it had any precedence. He also declared the strong feeling of respect which he entertained for the Noble Marquis (Chandos), in whose ranks he bad fought on more than one occasion ; but while he expressed this feeling, he could not but regret the want of courtesy shown towards him by the Noble Marquis, in having taken out of his hands a proposition of which he had given notice so long back as last Session, and brought it forward in nearly the same words as his (the Noble Marquis's) own.. The Noble Marquis had taken from him, almost by force, that which he must have known was his adopted child. Such was the poignancy of his feelings in having been anticipated by the Noble Lord in a motion which he bud long cherished as his own, that he was about to quit the House, but a sense of what be owed to his conscience, to the merits of that class to which the amendment bad reference, and to the interests of the country, that he could not leave those ranks in which he bad been engaged, and therefore be would cordially give his support to the motion.—(Hear, hear.) Sir C. BURRELL supportesl the amendment, and con tended that the franchise could not be trusted to a more independent body than the yeomen whom that body would introduce. The Marquis of CHANDOS disclaimed any intention of anticipating the Gallant Officer's (Colonel Sabtborpc's) motion. He was aware that that motion stood on the orders; but his own being in some respects different, he took the first opportunity that presented itself of bringing it forward. Mr. MILDMAY thotight that the 501. landed tenant had quite as good a right to the elective franchise as the 101. householder. He was sure that the former would be at least as independent as the latter, and he should there. fore vote for the amendment, though it was with the greatest regret that he opposed the Ministers. Mr. BENETT said the objections of the Noble Chan. cellor of the Exchequer applied almost wholly to the in fluence which it was supposed that the landlord might ex ercise over his tenant. In the present state, however, of the relation between landlord and tenant, the landlord was quite as much dependent upon the tenant as the tenant upon the landlord. The Noble Lord had drawn a parallel between the householder and the renter of a farm, and had said that if the householder were turned out of hi' tenancy, he would only have to take away his shop goods with him to another house, whereas the farmer would entirely lose the capital he had expended upon the farm. Let him, however, ask the Noble Lord dutch a man could take away the custom of his shop with him as well as his goods. He kianveowu favour tha t of R t e h fo e r r m e , w a u n d among kn e t w h e a fu l o m t e h r a s t a t g h e e n y e feeling were almost iu all in favour of this amendment. Mr. HODGES had a few nights ago given notice that he should support this amendment. He understood the object of the clause to be the increase of the constituency of counties, which increase had become the more necessary in consequence of the creation of large boroughs in the counties. He approved of this object, and he was there fore very anxious for the success of the amendment, for he thought that the amendment earned the principle of the Bill into more effective operation than the clause slid as originally framed. He soy nothing in the objection founded Aver uponthe tenant , h the influen c e a ri (be c i w hiche red lan i d t l a o n rd a m et ig o h f t itutit; exer cise to confer the elective , franchise u p on toe rentin g tenanc y a nd poor rates. An hIEISIBER (w— h Ote PAM e we could not learn) osid th e of counties, who bore s o lar g e a proportion of the county MEM