The Sun. — London, England, 1831-03-08 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, Mincir 7. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack , 13ortly after Five o'clock. Petitions were presented by the Earl of Ilardwicke, from Ely and Cambridge, for the abolition of slavery, and from Wiabeach, in favour of the Local Courts Bill ; by Lord Stanhope, from a parish in Kent, for the repeal of the malt tax, against the tithe system, and complaining of distress ; by Lord Radnor, in favour of Parliamentary Reform, from Wartville ; by the Archbishop of York, against slavery; by Lord King, from Wicklow, praying for an alteration in the tithe system, and from several other maces to the same effect. PARLIAMEN FARY REFORM. Lord WHARNCLIFFE saki that on Thursday last he had given notice of his intention to more on Thursday next for certain returns respecting the population of seve ral towns and counties. for the purpose of introducing that important subject, which occupied the attention of every person in the kingdom at the present moment. At the time he did so, he certainly had not a contemplation that the discussion of the subject in another place would be in the state in which it now was,—(Hear, hear.)—He therefore thought, under the present circumstances, that important question could. not now be conveniently discussed in that House. He should, therefore, withdraw his order for that day, nor could he fix any precise time on which he could bring it forward ; but he must say he would take the earliest opportunity, consistently with the convenience of the House, of bringing the question under discussion. Earl GREY observed that the Noble Lord, when he announced his intention the other day, exercised his own •discretion as to the time when he should move for those re turns—(Hear, hear)—and he (Earl Grey) did not ob ject to the course intended tube pursued by the Noble Lord; and he could assure the House that he was not at all de sirous of postponing the discu‘sion, as he was perfectly prepared to enter into the discussion of the question in the fullest manner—(Hear, bear)—whenever it came be fore the House, and whenever it should please the Noble Lord to bring it forward.—(Cheers.) The Duke of SUSSEX presented a petition from Hammersmith, praying for Parliamentary Reform.— in doing so his Royal Highness felt himsel called upon to say a few words. The petitioners prayed for vote by ballot, though that was not the opinion of the inhabit ants of that populous district in general. He could not help expressing to the Noble Earl, his friend, who presided over the councils of his Majesty, his roost hearty thanks for the manner in which he had brought forward the measure of Reform—(Cheers)—and he would assure him when it came forward for discussion in that House, it should meet with his hearty and warm support.—(Loud cheers.) LUNATICS' BILL. The LORD CHANCELLOR postponed the second reading of this Bill for three weeks, in consequence of the continued indisposition of Lord Eldon, and the absence of Lord Lyndhurst. Lord FARNHAM presented petitions from the gilt metal and white metal button operatives--(laughter)— of Dublin, and from s!everal p , rishes in It'exhad, pray ing for the repeal of the Union. Also a petition from St. Mary's, Dublin, for the repeal of the sugar duties. On the motion of Lord GODERICIL a humble Ad dress was ordered to be presented to his Majesty for papers relative to the Swan River. FRAUDS CREDITORS' BILL. On the motion of Lord WYNvonn, the Bill went through a Committee, after some amendments. The Consolidated Fund Bill was read a third time awl passed, and the House adjourned at Six o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, 31A.RcR 7. The STEAKER. took the Chair precisely at Three o'clock, at which time the gallery was more crowded, if possible, than on any former night during the debate on the mea sure of Reform. Indeed so great was the crush that it was found necessary to lock all the doors leading to the gallery, and it was with the greatest difficulty that gentlemen connected with the Press could obtain ingress or egress. The seats in the body of the House were as on the former evenings all labelled with the names of the Members. Sk'AFORTH ELECTION. Colonel DAVIES brought up the report of the Com mittee on this election, which declared Mr. Ellice, the sit ting Member, duly elected, but that the petition against his return was neither frivolous or vexatious. Mr. DAWSON presented a return containing an ac count of the trade between Great Britain and China. A new writ was ordered for the borough of Mi!bourne Port, in the room of the Right Hon. Sturges Bourne, who has accepted the Chiltern Hundred•. Mr. HUGHES HUGHES presented a petition from 3fanchsBter, praying for leave to build and endow churches without leave of the diocesan. Sir ROBERT BATESON presented a number of peti. tions from places in Ireland against colonial slavery. Mr. GUEST moved for X return of the number of towns in Wales, containing, in the year 1821, ten thousand inhabitants, and not nsw returning Members to Parlia ment.—Ordered. Mr. DENISON presented a petition from the pa rish of St. Mary, Newington, which expressed the petitioners' greatest gratitude to his Majesty's Mini sters for the plan of Reform which they had intro duced, and they implored the House to pass the as they were convinced that the measure had the entire confidence and approbation of all classes. He fully con curred in the prayer of the petiti , n. Siace Friday last he had had an opportunity of seeing a great number of his constituents, and only one amongst them was opposed to the plan of Reform, and he merely thought it went rather too far.—(Hear, hear.)—He (Mr. Denison) returned sincere thanks to Ministers for their wise. manly, and just conduct. Hon. Members on the opposite side of the House might, perhaps, defeat the measure now, but as to defeat feating it in Coto, they might as well try to stop the tides of the ocean.—(Hear, hear.) He hoped to see the Hon. Member for Guildford at Epsom on Saturday, when there would be a public meeting to support Ministers. I .llr. BETIIELL had a petition to present from the West Riding of Yorkshire, expressing their approbation of the plan of Reform. He had mentioned this, as it was pro bable he should not have an opportunity of pre senting the petition to the House. Honourable Mem bers who opposed all plans of Reform bad done much to bring the present measure forward. If they opposed the present measure, be did not know how the Members who represented such places as Cattail and Old Sarum could ever think of offering themselves for a p..pulous town.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. BRISCOE could not let this opportunity pa , s without offering his mita of gratitude to Ministers fur their plan of Reform. If, as it bad been stated, any danger was likely to arise, the House would bear in mind that the Bill would create 500,000 new elector', who, should any danger be apprehended, would form themselves into a National Guard.—(llear.) Mr. HART DAVIS said that • he had received a letter that morning from Bristol, from which he thought the measure was not received with that approbation which was mentioned. He hoped, there fore, that Hon. Gentlemen would restrain their ardour until the voice of the country was known. Mr. WARBURTON said the town that he had the honour to' represent, although about to be semi-disfran• chised, had entrusted him with a petition, in which they stated their belief that the measure was calculated to pro mote the interests of the country, and prayed the House that it might pass into a law. Mr. LABOUCHERE had also a petition to present from Taunton in favour of the measure. All classes in that borough had received the plan with the greatest respect and approbation. The petition was then brought up, and ordered to be printed. Mr. PIIILLPOTTS presented a petition from a place in Gloucestershire, signed by six Magistrates, and a great number of respectable individual., praying no extension might be granted to the beer licenses.—( Hear, hear.) On the motion of the Marquis of CitANHos, a new writ was ordered for the borough of Hythe, in the room of Sir Philip Si dney, who had accepted the Chiltern Hundreds. Sir T. ACKLAND presented u a petition from a place in Devonshire, praying eforni and vote by ballot. Mr. BAILEY presenteiplrmaylztition from the Political Union Society of Bristol, annual Parliaments, vote by b illot, and universal suffrag e .. (Hear, hear.) Mr. ADEANE presented a petition, o fr f on a the city of Parmntary Ely, which stated that the measure Reform had been received with great delight in that part of the country, and that the petitioners vinced if carried into a law it would give were "e",l co i n ; to the throne, and insure the confidence of thep in that Honourable Hou s e . N o w he ful l y agreed 1,7;1: principle of the Bill which he thought sound , but at the same time he must say be thought it went a little too far. —( Hear, hear, hear.) He should not oppose the seconti . reading of the Bill, but if it did not undergo con. siderable alterations in Committee, it would net be in his power ultimately to support it.—(lfear, hear.) Sir C. BURRELL agreed with the Hon. Member who spoke last as to the general principle of the measure, and should vote for the second reading. But be should look with great anxiety to the provisions and alterations La hoped to see made in Committee. Sir M. W. RIDLEY had to present a petition agreed to at a meeting of friends of Reform at Newcastle. In the course of a few hews the petition received more than 3,000 signatures.—' , Hea r , hear, hear.) The p e titi oners entirely approved of the measures introduced by Ministers, and expressed their opinion that it would give stability to the throne and confidence in the House of Commons. They moreover stated, that although Radical Reformers, so convinced were they of the advantage of the plan, that they were willing to throw aside vote by h llot, and other opinions which they e ntertained.—(Hear.) Ile (Sir M. W. Ridley) thought, however, with the Hon. Member that had lately spoken, that some alteration was required. in the Bill to make it a constitutional Reform—(Hear.) Sir C. FORBES—Nothing that had been said in the House or out of the House should intimidate him from doing his duty as an independent Member of radia lmeat. lie should oppose the Bill ; it was radi rally bad.—(Loud cries of hear, hear, hear.) The Honourable Member for Preston had said he would take their plan, and thank Ministers for it, as it was a stepping-stone for the people to get annual Parliaments and universal suffrage, _ and until they got that they would never he satisfied. He (Sir C. Forbes) firmly believed that such would be the case. Mr. HOPE JOHNSTONE presented a petition from a place in Staffordshire in ftvour of Reform. Sir J. WROTTESLEY would take that opportunity of informing the House, that there was another class of p•ti 'ions coming to that Howe, expressing the gratitude of the country for the me isures proposed by Ministers. He should not have an opportunity of pre,enting a petition that was entrusted to him, but he would state that it was from the po pulous town of Wolverhampton. It was signed by more thin 1,200 inhabitants, who expressed their opinion that the measure would give the greatest satisfaction to the country. Colonel CHICHESTER presented two petitions from Wexford, praying for a repeal of the Union. Mr. O'CONNELL shortly supported the prayer cf the petition. TAXATION. Lord G. SOMERSET presented a petition from New port, prayinz for the repeal of the assessed taxes. Lord ALTHORP could not at the present moment pro pose any further reducti,n of taxation. Mr. BULLER gave notice that it was his intention, when the proper time arrived, to move that the Newspaper stamps should be reduced to a halfpenny.—(hear.) Mr. BULLER said the country felt grateful for the re duction already proposed on Newspaper Stamps, and hoped that Government Nvould go as far as possible in the reduction. An HoN. MEarnEit under the gallery wished to know how soon it was intended to propose the reduction of the Newspaper Duty. Lord ALTHORP was understood to reply that the re duction in question was to ferns part of one General Stamp Act, and therefore it was intended that that altera tion should not take place before the sth of July. Lord G. SOMERSET wished to know from the Noble Lord opposite what he intended to do with respect to the duty on coals ? Ile meant as to the time when the pro posed removal of duty was to come into operation? Lord ALTHORP intended it should be removed in three months. He did now, however, expect to be able to remove it sooner, by an arrangement different from that which he at first contemplated. REFORM MEETINGS, FOR THE PURPOSE OF SUPPORTING HIS MAJESTY'S MINISTERS. The Marquis of CHANDOS, on the order of the day being moved that the House do resume the debate on the Reform Bill, said that he had leave from the Gal lant Colonel who was in possession of the House to bring before the attention of the House a subject highly deserving its attention before the gallant Colonel pro ceeded with the debate. The duty he (the Noble Marquis) felt he had to perform to the country called upon him to bring forward this subject. It was a matter of the deepest regret to him to tind that his Majesty's Ministers, and the friends of the question they were now bringing forward and so warmly advocating, were not content with themselves advo cating that question, hut were going about the country, using every means in order to intimidate the representatives of the people of the country from the pro per discharge of their duty.—( hear, hear, hear, from the Opposition aide.) He, for one, had to state to the House and to the country that no threat or intimida tion whatever would ever bias him, or prevent him advo cating that cause which he thought beat for the interests of his country.—(Repeated cheers from the Opposition.) He scorned those men who went about with a view to intimidate—he scorned them because they were not worthy of the names they possessed—going about as they were, endeavouring to inflame the minds of the lower orders of society, and if they could nut get their mea sure carried in that House by fair and open means, showing that they were determined to have it carried by physical strength. He called upon his Majesty's Ministers not to allow those meetings to take place, and not to allow these proceedings to go on.—(Hear, hear, from the Oppo sition, and loud laughter ou the Ministerial side.) Ile repeated his call on his Majesty's Ministers to inter fere to prevent those meetings, and to prevent persons going about doing anything to influence Members, and not leaving them honestly, as the representatives of the people, to discharge their duty consistently with their own views. The particular point to which he wished to call the attention of the House was, that on Saturday last a meeting took place at the Crown and Anchor Tavern, which was attended by Colonel Evans, and on which occasion (as was reported in the Morning Chronicle) that gallant Colonel expressed himselt in these terms :—he bad come from the coast of Sussex, for the purpose of attending the meeting, where two Ref .rut meetings had taken place; and he knew that ten thousand persons were ready to march up to London to the support of his Majesty's Ministers if they should be defeated in the measure now before the Ilonae.—(ll.ar, hear.) He begged leave most seriously to call the attention of his Majesta's Minis ters to this speech, and wished to know whether they meant to take any step to repress such language, and as he had said to put a stop to such meetings. The answer they might give would bias hint unquestionably in the course he should pursue, being himself at present (as he should do) perfectly at liberty to take that course which in his discretion he should think right. Lord ALTHORP rose and said—l really do not know on what ground it is that the Noble Lord says his Ma jesty's Ministers are inflaming the minds of the people-- (Hear, hear, hear, hear)--'1 exciting a clamour out of doors calculated to disturb the deliberations of this House; for I can assure the Noble Lord that his Ma jesty's Ministers are doing no such timing. All we wish is that the question should be dispas- ionately and quietly discussed. —( Hear, hear.) 'We are perfectly well aware that the public feel a very strong and deep interest in the question. (Hear, hear.) And the Noble Lord must know as well as any other Member of this Plows, that when the people do feel strongly upon a measure, public meetings will take place and violent language will be made use of on those occasions, but certainly his Majesty's Ministers wish only that the question should be discussel on its true merits. --(Loud cheers. )—lf the Noble Lord wishes me to state what course his Majesty's Ministers will take in reference to the speech of Colonel Evans, all I can say is (and the Noble Lord knows that I did not see a report of that speech until I came into this House) that I think it a very violent and foolish speech, but that it is not one which I think it becomes the Governtneat to take any proceedings respecting.—(Hear, hear.)--I know very well that in taking up questions of this kind, on the ground of a breach of privilege—and I do not know that this is a case which could be taken up, on the ground of a breach of privilege, on the contrary, my opinion is, that it is not—it is necessary that there should be a very strong and urgent necessity presented in order to induce the House to act, because in all the instances in which the House has taken up questions on the ground of breach of privilege, I do not think the House has benefitted by it.—(Cheers.)—The Noble Lord has said that my answer will decide the course which he is to take. I can only say, that he is at perfect liberty to take whatever course lie chooses. I can assume him it is not the wish of his Majesty's Ministers that this question should be carried by violence and clamour—we feel that nothing could be worse for the cause than such violence and clamour. Sir CHARLES WETHERELL thought that the Noble Lord (the Marquis of Chandos) deserved the gratitude of all who wished well to the discussions of important matters in that House, in bringing this subject before its attention. The Noble Lord oppo site had understated his duty as a Minister of the Crown, in saying that it was not the wish of his Alajesty's Ministers to carry this question by clamour and by violence. Ile begged to state that it was the duty of his Majesty's Ministers to take care that no • such ingredients were infused into the discussion of the measure. It was their duty to interpose, for time pur pose of pre vent i ng an d stopp i ng suc h speec h es as h a d been brought before their notice by tl:e Noble Lord behind limn. H e would take the liberty of stating to his Majesty's Ministers distinctly that there were persons in this country in all situations of life, who though they did not believe that his Majesty's Ministers were conniving at external attempts to intimidate, yet thought it was a moment in which the Government were bound by every principle of duty to interpose to prevent agitation that might be created out of doors. He would not go the length of saying that Ministers were conniving to agitatate, but be certainly did consider that it was their duty to adopt proper means for stopping the agitation that might he abroad. Not only had persons out of doors resorted to something like threats of intimidation (and which no person could be ignorant of who read the effusions of the Press), but in that very House something of the same sort had been resorted to. The Noble Paymaster who had brought forward this measure bad used !he term convulsion ; and he meant to say, that if this measure should not pass, Hon. Members would tie con vulse I—but not from terror but with ridicule.—(Loud laughter, and hear, hear.)—Now it was not those who were on his side of the House who were in the lamentable pre dicament of a humble minority, but those who had used the threat were in the minority, as the Ministers would show when they were cast up. The Learned and Hon. Member here got into a considerable heat, was called to order by the Speaker, and concluded by declaring that he was not contented with tl e Noble Lord opposite merely saying it was not the wish of the Government that these violent meet;ngs should take place, at which such violent langua',:e was to be used, but that it was their duty authoritatively to ieterfere to prevent them. Lord ALTHORP would ke as wi!ling as the Hon. and Learned Member to maintain the power of the law in preventing any disturbance or improper conduct when ever a necessity should present itself; but at present he saw none. Sir E. KNATCUBULL disapproved of the meeting and of each language ; he disapproved also of calling par ties to the bar of that House except in cases of the most urgent necessity, and in the present :nstance recommended his Majesty's Ministers to direct the Attorney-General to take cognizince of what had been done. ...,..e. Mr. BENETT thought it mast unhandsome that such a charge as the present should be brought forward against his Majesty's Ministers. He was perfectly satis fied that the meetings took place spontaneously, and that petitions were being sent to that House from all quarters from the very best of motives. Alderman Woon and Mr. COKE also deprecated the bringing for ward of this charge ; and the former stated that at an open hall held in the city of London that day there was the most unanimous feeling in favour of the measure of his Majesty's Ministers. Colonel SIBTHORPE said, the Hon. Member for Middlesex bad declared that he was perfectly s ttiefied with the plan of the Noble Lord, and that he, a radical reformer, was not only satisfied, but that the plan had gone beyond his expectation. If that was the sentiment of a radical reformer, what must he his (Colonel Sib thorpe's) ? Though the furthest from a radical reformer, he was perfectly ready to admit that some Reform was re quired. He was quite ready to admit that there was room for an improvement in the state of the represen tation; but when he looked at the provisions of this Bill, which at " one fell swoop" took away the fran chise from those who had done nothing to merit the loss, to give it to others who had no better claim for its possession, he could not help considering the measure as one which was partial and unjust in its operation. Another point which he thought the House had a right to complain of, and which he was glad hed been men tioned that evening, was the excitement wiiich was raised in the mind of the people on the subject; he did not intend to accuse the Noble Lord the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or the Noble Lord who had brought forward this question, as tending to create that excitement, but that it did exist, and that it was mischievous in its effects, there could be no doubt. The Noble Lord, in opening the debate, had certainly seemed to flitter himself that he intended to act upon a principle, but he (Colonel Sib thurpe) would almost consent to pledge his wad that it would be found, on investigation, that most of those boroughs which were still to have one representative left belonged to Whig patrons, while such was not the case with those boroughs against which sentence of death bad been passed without any hopes of mercy—(A laugh, and hear, hear)—and then what was it that the First Lord of the Admiralty had said? He had threatened that if the House did not support the Government, Parliament should be dissolved. But he would tell that Right Hon. Bironet, that he was not afraid to go back to his constituents, and no threat at any time should prevent his giving his honest vote and opinion in that House.—(Hear, hear.)—lf the Ministry really wanted to something that should he of benefit to the country, he thought that it would be much better if they would adopt the strict letter of the Act by which no person holding place or pension was to have the right of voting in Parliament. He was a Re former, but no Radical Reformer ; but as be wished that the peop'e of England should have full knowledge of the notable Bill which the Noble Lord was about to introduce (though in his opinon it would never pass into a law), he should not oppose its being read a first time; hut, at the same time he would not pledge himself in that House. to any single vote that he would give about it. Since this was a Bill which was to give the death-blow to one borough after another, he should like to ask the Hon. Member fur Blet chingley (Mr. Tennyson), hew he could take a seat in that House, become one of the Ministry, and actually go hack to be re-elected for that very borough, when the Ministry to which he belonged had in substance declared that the borough which he represented was incapable of sending an honest man to Parliament ?—(A laugh, and hear, hear.) And since the Noble Lord himself had relied so much upon the principle of his Bill, it might have been as well if lie would have waited till a new census could be made up, before he decided on the boroughs to be disfranchised ; in which case he was persuaded that it would be found that many of those which were only to have one arm lop ped off, would have had to change places with those which, according to the census of 1821, were to be killed outright.—(Hear, hear.) There was also one important question which the Noble Lord had omitted, and one which, if the Bill should ever get as far as the Committee, he himself would take the opportunity of mentioning there. The Noble Lord had said no one single word on the point which be (Colonel Sibtliorpe) looked upon as the sine pia non of a reformed Parliament, and that was the en couragement of the liberty of the Press. In his opinion, it was highly necessary that provision should be made for all the debates in that House to go forth freely, fully, and honestly to the public. It would at least have the advan tage of showing the public what Members did their duty and what did not. As there would, he trusted, be future opportunities of addressing the House on the merits of the Bill, he would not at that time trespass longer on their patience. Mr. TENNYSON—His opinions on this question were so well known, that he would not have intruded them on the House if be had not been so pointedly called on by the Hon. and Gallant Member who had just spoken, and on a previous' evening by the Hon. Member for Boroughbridge (Sir C. Wetherell). If he understood the Hon. and Gal lant Member aright, he charged him with representing the rotten borough of Bletchingley—with having received of fice under his Majesty's present Government—and with having been re-elected for that borough after having so ac cepted office. Now, with respect to the rotten part of this charge, it certainly was not fair to make it against him, as the Him. and Gallant Member must very well know that it was only in obedience to the law, and not from any choice of his own, that he had been re-elected after taking office. Neither could he see how it was any reproach to him, under the existing circumstances of the representa tion of the country, to sit for that borough, though he knew that he had hut one constituent. His opinions on Reform were well known ; and the representation that he had enjoyed he had always used for the benefit of the people—(Hear, hear)—and so long as he sat for that borough he would always so use it.—(Hear, hear.) — Did, then, the Hon. and Gallant Member suppose that he should shrink from giving a vote consistent with the principles he had always maintained on this ques tion, even though, by so doing, he should be, accord ing to the word of the Honourable Member for Calling ton, committing a sort of suicide?—(Hear, hear.) He was ready to do that, and much more, to place the liber ties of his country on a permanent, and, as he trusted, on an everlasting basis.—(Cheers.) —While he was speaking on this subject, lie might also mention the instance of the Hon. Member for Durham (and he did this the rather as the Hon. Member was too modest to make the an nouncement himself), who was ready to make the sacri fice of three nominations ; not that be had himself ob• tained, but which had descended to him, and by which be would lie placing the sacrifice of one hundred thousand pounds on the altar of his country, to give it an opportu nity of rallying against that oligarchy which had too long overborne it.—(Hear, hear.)—The King and the people were united. His Majesty's Ministers were at length the friends of the people. The battle they had to fight was the bettle of the King and of the people. They would not shrink from any portion of the responsibility which they bad undertaken, and the result would be that they must ultimately crush and destroy that many-beaded monster which had too long weighed like an incubus on the best interests and prosperity of the kingdom.—(Cheers.) Sir GEORGE CLERK had to enter hie protest against the inference drawn by the Lord Advocate, that because the Scotch Members had been silent, they necessarily ap. proved of the measure. He, as a Scotch Member, had been anxious s,t an earlier period of the debate to offer his Opinions on the question, but had not been so (orturnite as to find an opportunity. He was, however, nearly pre cluded from entering into the question, became the Noble Li rd (J. Russ;ll) had not detailed the plan with respect Scotland. The proposition, however, with ri spect to the counties of Scotland was most extraordinary, far it seemed that th y were to be doubled up together where the coun ties were not contiguous. He would not .1, ny that vitt of the present representation was objectionable, but he did not think that the plan proposed would better it. The question now before the House was, whether there was any overbearing necessity for so violent a change in the Constitution of Great Britain as that proposed by the Noble Lord ? He denied that there was any ground for so txtraordinary a char7.e.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He would not say anything as to the spahrtion or robbery that had been talked of, for he agreed with the Hon. Mend). r for Westminster, that the change proposed was within the power of Parliament ; but the mode in which that power should be exercised was a matter of discretion. They had bren asked whether they would rest upon the Constitution us it existed in the time of the ship money ? llis answer to that was, that he would rest upon it as it existed at the time of the glorious Revolution of 1688. But they' were now called upon to make as great a change as the one which took place then. The Noble Lord himself, who was now san guine in his measure, had not slways held the same tone. From 182'3 to 1826, he had introduced an annual motion on the subject, and he then wilidrew it on account, ac cording to his own statement, of the iukewarmness of the people. When I\lr. Canning stated in that House that he would oppose Reform to the last day of his life— (Hear, hear)—the Noble Lord had said that he had proposed to his friends to make it a party question, but _ . . that they had declined.—(hear, he.r.) In 1 S2S there were no petitions presented for Reform. In 1529 there were none ; but in that year tile Catholie e i nestion Passed ; and those who had opposed that me t cute had con tended that the Parliament did not rept, sent the voice of the people, in consequence of which they had taken every opportunity of stirring up their constituents and others to petition the Ilotr.e for Reform ; but he believed that there were many who now bitterly repented the extrt mite to which they were likely to be hurried by this Bill. The Learned Lord, the Member for Dundee, groonded his arguments in favour of the Bill upon the petitions ; but what did the petitioners demand ?—not this Bill ; the great majority of the petitioners demanded the vote by ballot. The principal reason which the people had for demanding Reform was, that they expected it would lead to a t due- tio❑ of taxation and rclie;e their distress. Ile remembered that the Hon. Baronet, the iNletnher for Westminster, stated a few nights ago, that the Irish people ta anted food and clothing ; and the Hon. Member for Waterford, tell ing them that the repeal of the Union wool I give fowl and clothing, they were all eager for a repeal of the Union as a means of getting food and clothing. For a similar reason the people of England now called for a Reform of Parham , nt in order to get a reduction of taxation. Re form was now to he the specific for every evil. The country was, indeed, under great obligations to the pre sent Government for having disabused it of the error that it was practicable to Indic any further reduction of taxa -. tion. They had wished that, but when they had been a short time in office they found it impossible. He feared that if reduction of taxation were attained through the medium of Reform it would be attacking the public cre ditor; and such a Reform, for such an object, he was sure the great mass of the people could not desire. The petitioners, too, asked for the reduction of tithes, and that they were likely to obtain by Reform. If the Bill were thrown out, a: he believed it would he by a large ma jority, they would, no doubt, be all sent to their consti tuents, as the First Lord of the Admiralty had threatened, and he would then recommend Ministers to go to their constituents, not as the Right. Hon. Member for Tamworth said, with that Bill in their bends, but with the budget of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. To justify the ,-weeping measure of the Noble Lord, what were the evils he printed out? Formerly the pelt evil always complained of was the overwhelming influence of the Crown, which was to lie overcome by strengthening the popular patty. But the Noble Lord had stated nothing about the influence of the Crown, because he had no le,- son. During the last four years the greatest reductions in all the establishments had been made, which, combined with the general diffusion of knowledge by means of the Press, prevented that influence ever being now employed to the detriment of the country. The House and the country were satisfied that the influence of Parliament was not now extreme. The Noble Lard had described the great evil of the present system to be nomination borough., close corporations, and the expense of elections. The lest evil was one every Member would be glad to lessen; but he doubted if the plan of the Noble Lord would be efficacious for the purpose. He rather thought that the plan would increase the expense, and would give greater facility for bribery and corruption than at present. The principle of the Bill was to establish an uniformity of suffrage, cutting off the Peels on the one hand, by cutting off thenomination boroughs, and cutting off the poor on the other, by cutting off the close corporations, anti the scot and lot voters. How those electors in Westminster and Preston would like that he did not know. It wits said, indeed he knew that it was not individuals who were to be dis c ranchised, but a class. But what would be the opera tion of the measure ? It would not, he believed, he prac ticable to deprive those of their franchise ; but if it were, only one interest would come to be represented—that of the middle cla,ses. They were told that this was not a revolutionary measure because the 'mints of Russell, of Spencer, and Stanley recommended it ; but he recollected when the Noble Lord brought forward a motion in 1826, not 90 sweeping as the present, that the present Secretary of State for the Home Department denounced that as a re volutionary measure. In 1821, too, when the then Member for Durham brought in a Bill of this description, so like the present that they appeared to have come from the same shop, the Member for Caine, the present Lord Chief Baron of Scotland—asd when he mentioned his name who was always prominent in promoting every rational Reli_oun, lie thought he had stated a very high authority—Mr. Ater , cromby deseribcd that Measure as baring a tendency to re ' volution. When he found such authority for the opinion he entertained of this measure ; when he found a similar Bill, a Bill from the seine workshop, before them, he must contend that lie had good ground lor calling it a revolu tionary measure. Thinking it unjust in tendency as well as impracticable in its details, he should strenuously oppose it, and should be for ever proud to have his name in the list of that large majority by which the Bill would be re ie'ted.—(Citeei s. ) An Hoar. Mestant said that this Bill would seriously affect his private interest, but he willingly sacrificed it to the welfare of his country.—(Cheers.) Mr. HOPE rose to reply to the insinuation of the Learned Lord, the Member for Dundee, not as a Member for Seed:nil, but as a Scotch gentleman, that the body of Scotch gentlemen were satisfied with the measure, but that Learned Lord was not entitled to infer from their silence that the measure met their approbation. He would not enter into the arena with the Learned Lord, whose splendid eloquence he admired, and of whose eminent ta lents and great knowledge he was sensilde ; he would only pledge himself on the proper occasion, to show that the measure was not suitable to Scotland. The question might be considered under two heads, the necessity and propriety of Reform in general, as an abstract principle, and the necessity and propriety of the particular measure. He did not wish to give any opinion as to the propriety of the abstract principle of Reform ; he would only say, that all the reasons urged in support of that prin ciple by the gentlemen on the other side of the House had failed to convince him. They all amounted to this, and this only—that Reform was necessary because the people demanded it. But if that proved anything, it proved too much ; for if the people were to dictate Reform, or any other measure, where was the u tili ty o f the deliberations of Parliament ? If the will of th e people were to b e im plicitly obeyed, and if it w ere not to he res i sted on pa i n of t h e proscriptions and massacres of which the Hon. m ein bw for Caine had spoken, of what use was their de liberations? It reminded him of Camhvses, who was anxious to do something forbidden by the unalterable laws of the Merles and the Persians, and whose council accord. i ng l y found that by one o f t h e unalterable laws, t v when they demanded a measure that was to de stroythe Constitution, were o n l y act i ng on a law which King was to do as h e lik e d. S o t h e sovere i gn people, iil i authorized them to do just as they pleased. He wou ld not call their dem an d s clamour, as their opi nions on Catholic emancipation had been styled, but h e was prepared to contend that the demand for Reform was neither so extensive as it was represented to be, nor lik e ly to be so durable as to excite any apprehensions. Reform was not looked on as an end, but as a means, and there were two distinct objects kept in view by two diffe rent classes of persons. Those two classes had been de scribed by the Learned Lord, the Member for Dundee, as consisting of the middle classes of the people, and as crazy Radicals, who looked to obtain prouerty by promoting anarchy, With the middle classes he believed the wish for Reform was to procure a reduction of taxation, and if they bad been led astray by false reports of the salarhs of public officers, and of the public expenditure, they were not to blame for their opinions. lion. Gentlemen oppo site had much contributed to produce these erroneous im pressions. He contended that Reform would not produce a reduction of taxation; that it would not quiet Ireland, . .4 which it hardly affected ; that it would ii, r eli e the tress of the agriculturists, whom it disfranchised; anti would not disperse the storm that was collecting en the continent, compelling us to increase all our expenses. The pl in of the Government neither gave the old Consti tution of the country, nor a new one, but a something be tween Loth, without the advantages which might lie de , rived from either. Ile thought, too, that the change in the franchise would he rm.st pernici ous , b ecause i t ex tended the power of voting to a cliss of men who wt re neither rich enough to be above the bribery, no r well ethic 'tea enough to know how to select the most fitting persons for their I - eine:qi ativ&. The Right lion. Gen tleman, the Member for Windsor (Mr StaLley) observed the other evening that Reform was like the S)liiiiite —the longer they delayed the purchase of it, the more money they must ultimately pry for it, and the less benefit they could receive front it. Now he would say to the lion. Member that the world bad derived as little advan tage from the Book of the Sybils as we were to ob tain f rom the. Reform to which lie had compared them— (Hear, hear)—and he certainly felt bound, the,efore, to oppose the plan of Government as unnecessary, ill di gested in its detail, perfectly useless with respect to the end which it proposed, and at the same time pregnant with great danger to the country and the Constitution. Lord I). STUART, although he had heard many bril liant and eloquent speeches from gentlemen on the other side of the House a2ainst the measure, sill he confessed that none of the arguments ;adduced by them had sitiStied his mind as to the inexpediency or impolicy oPthis mea sure.—( Hear, hear.)—Those who h now c 0..... forward to oppose this proposition were heretofore adverse to all liclorm—(Cheers)—but not one of them had, on the present occasion, declared that he was hostile to any de gre of Reform.—(Cheers.)—N o t one of them had rais,d the standard of anti-reform.—(Cheers )—Sornithing, therefore, h been gained. He admitted that ours was a glorious and roost noble Constitution ; but still there were many defects in it, which, if they main: d um.e formed, would effe.i.t, the ruin of the entire fabric.— (Cheers.)---It was said that the proposed rreasvr, would destroy the just influence of property, an I would overturn t aristocracy. lie should lie sorry if it were calcu!,J• d to produce any such effect. Under it property Ivould en joy it s just idinence, and the Aristocracy their just power ; but it would not allow to the one an unjust influence, ncr to the other an unjust power.—(Cheers.)—The eh ctors would, under this improved measure, bring to the cx , o - - ci.e of their duties, not property alone, but what was of still greater importance—character and irdependenc.: (Cheers.) --It would induce gentlemen to reside more in the country than they did at present, they would go more amongst the people, and that of itself would be a most beneficial consequence.—(Hear, hear.)—The expense , f election's would, by if is plan of lb-form, be greatly lessened, which every person must admit to lie a very great amend • rnent.—(Hear, hear.)—l3ut the most important bem-fit of all was this—that the measure would conciliate large masses of the people, remove discontent, anti introduce peace and satisfaction.—(Cheers.) He denied that this plan of Reform was extorted by intimidation or popular clatnour.—(Cheers ) If there were popular clamour, un questionably it was popular clamour fouaded on just and reasonable grounds.—(Cheers.) He would not concede this or any other measure to popular excitement, if he did not conscientiously feel that it merited his support. The Hon. Mom? er for Preston had, on a former evening, de clared that the people could not place any de'pendance on that House ; but he trusted that when the Hon. Member saw this measure carried by a triumphant majority, he I would alter his opinion.—(Hear.) . . Colonel TYRELL as•ured the House that he would not occupy its attention beyond a very few minutes. In his opinion, the debate might to have ended with the speech delivered by a Right Hon. Gentleman at the close of a In - mer evening, became that speech was not only unanswer able but unanswered.—(A laugh.) Yee, he thought that the deb its might very well have clmed there: time, how ever being given in the first instance for the dying speech of the Noble Lord opposite. Nothing new could now be said on this subject. He was sure that a novel idea would be bought up at a large premium. The Hon. Member foe Midhurst (Mr. J. Smith) had said, that hi 3 joy was so great when Ministers brought forward this mea sure, that it bail actually taken away his breath. Now really it had also taken away his (Colonel Tyrell's) breath, but from a very (Jiff rent feeling. In consequence of the great agitation which prevailed, this question of Reform had now excited much greater intm rest in tl•at House than it had ever previously done. Ile however did not believe (and he would state his reasons wley) that the people were so very anxious for Reform as they had b,!en described. He had recently stood one of the most severe election contests that ever took place in the United Kingdom, and during the whole of that conte4, the great question of Parliamentary Reform was altogether last sight of.—(" NO, no," from Mr. Wellesley, with great vehemence.)—The opinion which he (Colonel Tyrell) might hold on that subject was never, he contended, de manded from him during the whole of his canvass.— (Loud cries of " Hear" from Mr. Wellesley.)—Neither did he feel it necessary to state what that opinion was.— (" Hear, hear," front Mr. Wellesley.)—lt did, however, occur to the Hon. Member for Colchester, whom he saw at the back of the Speaker's Chair, as an after-thought, to ask what opinion he (Colonel Tyrell) had on this sub ject. That circumstance took place at the latter end of the contest, and the statement he made to the Hon. Member then, was precisely the same he should be in clined to make to a similar question now. He had then said, in answer to the question, that wherever corruption was proved to exist, he would be ready and willing to move for the extension of the franchise, whether that cor ruption was discovered in the town of Colchester or in the borough of St. Ives.,-(Laughter.)—It was not altogether unworthy of remark, that this great contest took place in a county abutting on this metropolis, and that county unfortunately was, like the sister kingdom, troubled with two great agitators.— (Laughter. )—One of thesegreat agitators presented a petition no liter titan last Monday, which petition purported to state what WAS the opinion of the people of Essex with respect to Parliamentary Re form. The King's representative in the county of Essex had not attached his name to that petition, and perhaps it was for thin withholding his sanction that he had been subsequently cashiered. Probably seine Right Hon. Gen tleman opposite could inform him whether he was right in his conjecture. lie would tell Government in return, what his constituents meant by Reform ; they meant re duction of taxation, they meant ettonomy, retrenchment, repeal of assessed taxes.—(Hear.) —The measure proposed by his Majesty's present Ministers appeared to him oppresa sive, tyrannical, and revolutionary—(Hear, hear).— aa d he thanked the Noble Lord accordingly for having exposed it to men of plain understandings, unmystified by cabinet humbug, or the usual significant obscurity of office. He could not better conclude his observations than in the words of the Hon. Member for Colchester, which cer tainly should induce them to consider what they were about; for that Hon. Gentleman, every one well, knew, was not a person to stand upon trifles, never having courted the reputation of being "particular to a shade." —(General laughter.)—The radicals, it should be remem bered, were all strenuous advocates for this notable nUnis terial plan of Reform, and what said the Hon. Gentleman of that party no later than Monday last?—" The radi cals," tooth he, "by their system would eventually over• throw monarchy itself, which, after all, is the most pa ternal form of Government which the ingenuity of man has ever been able to devise."—(Laughter.)—For himself he could undertake to say, that were he thought worthy of being placed at the head of an administration—(Laugb ter)— instead of directing the energies of his cabinet to the subject of Reform, he should propose to abolish the as'cssed taxes, and substitute a property-tax. Mr. SYKES said that Government, in the present measure, merely designed to take away a certain power from parties who ought never to have possessed it, and he therefore felt himselfjostified in promoting it to the utmost of Isis ability. Their opponents—who, by the way, spoke the sentiments of others by whom they were habitually controlled—had called this scheme of Reform revolu tionary. Now it was most desirable that those gentlemen should define the word revolutionary, and explain the ac ceptation in which they had hitherto employed it. If to transfer the franchise from corrupt and depopulated bo roughs to extensive counties and important towns were re volutionary, then revolutionary he acknowledged it to be. Ile would wish, however, meanwhile, to be referred to the statute, whereby Peers were entitled to have representatives in that House in common with the people, to whom by every principle of the Constitution it ostensibly belonged. —( Hear, hear.) He entirely denied time assertion of the lion. and Learned Member for Boroughbridge, that this measure was a corporation robbery, and referred him to the speech of his Learned Friend the Attorney-General for its triumphant refutatiOn. In fine, he cordially approved of the policy of Ministers on the important question before them. Mr. LONG WELLESLEY said he was himself one of those gentlemen who, according to the phrase of Hon. Members opposite, were about to be despoiled of half their rights, and had, consequently, a double claim to be heard. A numerous and most respectable body of freeholders, convened at a county meeting by the Sheriff, had agreed to a petition in favour of Parliamentary Reform amongst other prayers which it comprised, and that petition he had lately had the honour to present to the House. The Hon. Gentleman's colleague (Mr. Western) had been all his life an - adeticete for Reform, and de should consider it fair to put that Member's opinions in opposition to his, as repro" sent' og, in an tept d degree, those of the county by whie they were return: d. The Ili ills of this measure were not to be describel as fivour dile to revolution, when they gulf sought to restme the national institutions to their pli 3 "" five comlitien, and to save the country itself from the Yell evil; whicii the opponents of Reform professed to expect as the consequences of its concession. He had never been fuel of wh it was, in these times, designated agit atic ' n ' hit it was well known that the most respectable yemusnrY of Essex had distinctly called on him to rescue their count(); :arum the deeraded st ite of its represent ition, and h subsequently supported him to the ext oit of 2 000 votes, in consideration ;if his principles in favour of Reform, rs, trencliment, and inn-intervention.—( ) No one la. svet mile more sacrifices than himself when fir meesures, not men ; but be had already relinquished 'personal considerations, ;nd he should always perseor.a re ctts in meriting at least the praise of consistency ni tide of purpose. If he were asked what, in his opioiou, o f the Lad most contributed to the acknowledged misery' country, he sh:oild say , widen', hi sitation, that it wto n ,a t " trihutable to the last Government's not having been O w ceetoly guided by large and liberal principles of Poli?Y' r It, h iwever, there were any one point mere than anotne oa which that party mianimoudy aereed, it was as to th e necessity of Il6was generally, let them differ on other t om pies as they might. If the tl emselves were " ct tie univetsil'y in favour of a Reform in the le , 1 eis.ato ref of shoull be perhaps inclined to question the eepediene Ise this measure, althouell he would always deny it t ° revolutienary ; but the multitude of petitions which t he y had is ceived from all quartets furnished the best Int' la evidence of the existing state ;if public opinion. Sir G. WARRENDER disapproved of the pr 9 e - , Ref ism Bill, because it was not a measure conferiinb rielos on the people, but with !sawing and confiscat ia i those rights which they already possessed —(llear, hear.) He sh•mh) not have objecte I to see repressntatives of Man" cheater, Birmi ;glan, and Leeds, in that House ; and 1 ! was sorry that advantage had not been token of the ce,"; vietion of the corrupt borough of Grampound, to trans fer the franchise I,r Lends ; but he considered it a grits' of injustice t 4 deprive any body of people of the acetic he voter! f - anchiste without any act of delinquency being proved.! (Hear, hear.) In that point of vi•w lie had laoked " the measure for the disfranchisement of the Irish 405 t freeholders, atel he regarded in the same light the pr°F ° :i s,l to disfranchise his constituents, the potwallorr e Honiton. He had received communications from 51 ' ' of his constituents as were redical reformers, and they ii farmed hint that they could not understand why th i e ; were to be deprived of their just rights, becausc Ministers wished to diminish the numbers of the House. He belied he should be allowed to rna ka o l a few olyervatiens respecting a country will w h. 'd he was connected. The Learned Lord (the is t ' i r . , e Advocate)—to whose speech the other night had listen; ;I with the greatest pleasure,—had stated tha , the requisition for the Edieburgh Reform meeting W a signed by many individuals who had lately become co_0 u : vats to the expedieney of granting Reform. He (Sir Wm render) felt deep interest, and, consequently paid great , attention to whatever took place in the city of Edinbu t g at He admitted that the requisition was signed by the ilie'art respectable persons, at the head of whom was the pe of Faculty, now the Lord Advocate ; but ice was not aware, that any one either attended the meeting, or signed the r e : quisition, who had riot always bean a consistent advo csl " Reform. A very large portion of intelligent and re d seectable persons did not concur in the petition whicb h a t been sot up in Edinburgh; and of this he was sure , tha j three-fourths of the petitioners would not he satis6e. w.th the measure of Reform proposed by the Governer )° ar.) That measure, he was certain, wou ld destr , 0 , hr power of the landed interest in Scotland. A Pet it , in favour of Reform had been presented from Roxbu r g h shire ; but I c was anxious that the House should b e iry foimed that the petition (lid not emanate from the fr ee : holders, who had the right of voting, but from the hl l t , tors of the county, who were all desirous of obtaining elective franchise, which was so important and valuable ') Scotland.—(lleac, hear, from the Ministerial bench es.) The reformers of Scotland were like the Roman r , former Catiline, who was atieni appetens--( 11 1, - ; heir)—but after whet the House had heard respecting boroughs of Melton and Tavistock, he could not s'l, that the reforming party in England bore out the 5 : militude in being sui profusus.—(Cheers from t e t Opposition.) A v e ry unjust cry had b e en raised &g al e the Members for close boroughs, but he declared that 'never gave such independent votes as when he was gf j ,: r her for Westbury, and had the Right Hon. Baronet Vi le R. Peel) for his colleatue. He h a d divided agains t lis Right Hon. Baronet on every occasion but one, and t ile was when they both found themselves in a minority' th e declared, that if the proposed measure should pat d o boroughs which would be left in the possession 01 elective franchise would be subject to Treasury influe° lle had some experience in these matters, and he r a d that the representatives of boroughs with a thousand upwards of voters, were more teased by importn°' than Members for close borceighs. He had gl ade of calculation of the value of favours asked in the sou p) a year by one borough (we did not hear what bolt° with a thousand voters ; and lie found it amenn t , t ee 35,0001. or 40,000/. He therefore concluded that' 101,, proposed measure passed, these boroughs would all be r ,) pet to the influence of the Tr e a s ury Bench.--( 11e5 1 ;01 Under the present system, men of the greatest pa s o f close boroughs; and as an exemplification of found their way into the House through the tit an t of t h e trot' the this statement, he need only direct the attention ° r e p r o House to the exhibition of ability which bad those afforded in the course of the present debate, by , t t . he re gentlemen who were Mersihers for close boroughs' 'dor was an Hon. Gentlemen to whom he mould P s ' per lady refer—the Member for Callington, who, ;rit e ': t he a committee. was formed to consider on questions ° o il greatest import ance an d i nteres t t o th e em pire, was al tot certain to he s e l e cted a M em b er , asd who was at P r ii t he eneaged upon a Committ e e in attempts to dimi nia for expenditure of the country. The Hon. Mernh e . T h ee Bletchingley had atta c k e d him, a n d h a d c haracteriz e " n o' as a man devoid of common sense, because, upon th e ' o ld sestation of a petition from Middlesex, be had ventios to d iutit that the unanimous opinion of the country r ' in favour of Reform. The same accusation had be° lo . peated ag a i ns t hi m b y t h a t most power f u l, that Ine' t o 0 1 just, and mos t d angerous i nstrumen t, t h e diurnal Pre s:el 3 the metrop o li s . li e h a d b een st yl e d a ma dman, an d d ti up to tie execration of the country, b e cause be bausilesV fully and honestly stated his opinions. But he sholnutote dismeyed by the attacks of that powerful engine, e oo aert! fearlessly to discharge the duty which, as an indeP e- se Member of Parliament, and as the representative of a C dr people, he owed to his Sovereign and his country % ID the however painful it mi g ht b e t o hi m t o differ f° s et Hon. Gentl e m e n o pp os i te , yet t h ere was a Par3rllB duty which he was bou n d t o di sc h arge .—( Hear.) o re had hearth it rumoured, that att e mpt s of an unfair ° fel t were to be made to obstruct the proposed measur e; oio ° he would be a party to no ca b a l, and whatever gle - o ' d he gave to the measure, he would give to it openly'' the face of the country.—(Hear, hear.) Lord lIOWICK said that the Hon. Member (Sire(' Warrender) had spoken to the House about the ved ue llori'i vote for a Scotch cou n ty, b u t h e s h ou ld like tl,:teiot) o, Gentleman to say w h e th er it was i n th e co ntenlP - , 0 those by whom th e e l ect i ve f ranc hi se o f Scotland t.s .e d bd gulated, that the right of voting should be e%e rc h 51 0 persons net in the possession of the soil, and d :vel a their votes for 1001. or 1,000/. ? The Hen. Ge° l , had said that he should hav e no objection to see t ta chise of convicted boroughs extended to manut it towns ; but he (Lord Howick) very much don bte veprd, I , l3t e P tle ° l) tber the lion. Gentleman's constituents (the potw ° , o ce e . s of lioniton) would have any more liking to t ing than they haul, according to the liom " c if °ono account, to the present measure. If he (Lord iiic h 1 0, were armed with all the inquisitorial powers the IPto East Retford Bill granted, and were to summon h ie' ,t 1 Gentleman to th e b ar of the House, and req uire iteo state the manner in which the elections of Ø °° llo ol ' o . es been cond ucte d f or t h e l ast century , h e (Lord c o e d, t o thought th a t the Hon. Gentleman would be c o l co ti os cording t o hi s own pr i nc i p l es , to a d m it that on e _ t heft h o t would not be m ore b ene fi c i a l f or hi s constituent° pu t t ir e proposed measure of Reform.--(Hear, hear.) -- ; solemn an d t e di ous f arce o f t h e E as t Retford was four years before the country, had bad tlrrs in ° r es that such unblushing hypocrisy as the pretensbn:o f C o d manlier to reform the corruptions of the fienjichpre'Bed mons was for ever at an end. The burdens o r 0(0 0 0' on the country hail not been created within a y of recent period, but had grown up during a ne ° , t u h r e ir government and extravaFance. They owe d ha l/ s 'oo to the sinister influence exercised by those W t he power of returning Members of that 1 - 1 05 , e i 0 pilot that only to warn lion. Members opposite o°` ors " t II supporters of this measure too far. If Min . t e - olt' the taunts of Hon. Members opposite, they for W oe s , too much discretion to allow themselves to be; co l-d o f o rt° out a case which won Id render the crY 0004 throughout the country even louder than it at to se c , rit e If the Constitution s h ou ld rema in unaltered, g' t . w hici A was there that ex t ravagance , f r om the effects o i t ted" l _, gjle , country was n ow su ff er i ng , would not be cono.ito itY 9 Reform of the constitution of the Houle