The Sun. — London, England, 1830-02-24 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS-(LAST NIGHT.) The Loan CHANCELLOR, the Duke of MANcuEsma, and Lord Ur EFORD, sat on appeals to .day till Four o'clock. Imrd MoNsoN took the oaths and his seat. Mr. Spicer, from Chelsea Hospital, presented the an nual account of unclaimed Arne• Prize-money. Mr. Smee, from the Bank of England, presented an account of the average amount of Bank of England notes and Bank Post Bills, in circulation in the month of Jan., 1830. Mr. Morris, from the Mint, presented an account re lating to the Gold Coinage. Upon the motion of Lord STANHOPE, the papers were ordered to he printed. Mr. Hubbertston, from the Commissioners of Shore ham hat hour, presented their Annual Report. lESSAGE FROM TELE COMMONS. Mr. 001:DON, attended by several other Members, brought up the Pauper Lunatic Asylum Bill, which, upon the motion of the Earl of Shaftesbury, was read a first time. the way of comfort to take a dram—(Much laughter)--- and to that many undoubtedly had been driven by the pre vailing distress of the country.—(Continued laughter.) Col. DAVIES considered the amusements of the two classes of society very different indeed. Bull baiting and cock-fighting were not only for the amusement of the poorer classes, but for the purpose of assembling to gether a mass of the most notorious pickpockets, as well as the greatest vagabonds that infest society ; if Newmarket and fox-hunting were to be attended by the same characters, he would he the first that would rise up with a view to put them down. He was far from ad vocating any thing calculated to oppress the poor, but it some Hon. Gent. would take the trouble of visiting the garret of the artizan, and there seeing his wife and children in a state of almost absolute starvation, while he was in a public-house getting a.m unit, he thought such Members night leo be so very anxious for a low duty upon shim its He by no means wished to have such a duty imposed as would in toto exclude dram-drinking ; but certainly spirits ought to hear a moderate duty. Mr. BROWNLOW considered that time reduction of the duty on Irish spirits to one half of what it had been had doubled the revenue of the Exchequer, and if the Right Hon. Gentleman acted wisely upon this subject he would continue to keep up only a moderate duty on spirits. Mr. BRIGHT was also favourable to a reduction of the duty. He considered that the reduction of the Malt Duty eveuld do a peat deal, but he was perfectly setiefied that tile reduction of the hop duty would do infinitely more, After some further conversation the petition was ordered to be laid on the table. THE COLONIES. Sir GEORGE 'MURRAY brought up Copies of Cer tain Correspondence with the Lieutenant-Governors of Upper and Lower Canada. Lord CHAIN - DOS rose to present a petition from certain West India Planters, praying fur a Reduction of the Duties upon Sugar and Ruin. lie was happy to he the organ of laying the petition before the Holm. When the House considered the extremely low prices of sugar and ruin, they would feel that the West India merchants had an extreme vase of distress for the consideration of the House. The duty was 275., and 21s. was the gross price received by the planter ; of which it was calculated that 12e. a cwt. was the cost of producing the article. The planter had likewise to contend with the sugars introduced from the Mauritius ; and, when these latter had been first allowed to be imported, it hail been calculated that the annual im portation would never exceed ten thousand hogsheads, whereas 25.000 hogsheads were now annually introduced. The West India planter, moreover, had to contend with those who raised colonial produce by slave labour; and be thought it scandalous, after what England lad paid and done, that France, Spain, and the Brazils should be allowed to carry on the slave trade to the scourge of hu manity, and to the injury of the Britieh Colonies. The attention of Government ought to be more seriously given to the state of the Colonies, for whatever theories might he afloat respecting the nature of Colonies, he should ever hold them to be constituents of the best interest, and of the fituie and glory of the country. If Ministers did not do something for the Colonies, he could predict very great evils to the country. Mr. KEITH DOUGLAS said, that upon a great por tion of West India produce no profits were gained, for, on the contrary, a great loss was sustained, and families for merly in affluence were now in the greats et distress. The shipping and property, and other ciimmercial interests, now amounted to about seven millions annually. Was it, then, to be believed that all the shipping and property migl,t be swept away without inconvenience or injury to the general interests of the country? Of these interests, some were of a very peculiar nature; and they, he con tended, were affected by that colonial distress which arose from excessive taxation, the foreign slave trade, and the introduction of Mauritius sugar. In 1807 the slave trade had been put an end to in our colonies, under the impres sion that, by its abolition, we should be paying a debt of humanity, in allowing slaves to rise in the scale of society to the rank of freemen. And all measures had been taken by Lord Castlereagh to induce foreign countries to give up this traffic, but in vain ; for the French appealed bent upon carrying it on, though so deeply degrading to such a nation as France. 'I bus it happened, that notwith standing all our exertions and eapence, seven hundred thousand slaves had, since the peace of 1815, been brought from the coast of Africa to foreign colonies, for the pur pose of extending cultivation there; while our colonies were deprived of all such advantages. Again, in 1823, the introduction of Mauritius sugar wag permitted, the conse quence of which had been that depreciation in the price of West Indian sugar, stated by the Noble Marquis (Chanties. ) How, then, were the West India planters situated ? There was a duty of 275. the cwt., while the price had fallen from 50e. and 60s. to 225. the cwt. He begged the House to remark, too, that the colonies had gone along with the Administration of this country in all the arrange ments respecting the United States ; but that, notwith standing, our Government had regulated their views of colonial policy upon a principle altogether opposed to their professions. What, then, was the situation of the Nest India planter ? lie had, at the utmost, after paying the freight, insurance, landing, and sale charges, only 12s. per cwt., and the cost of production, while he paid 27e. duty. He was induced to hope that the House would see that the duties now exacted were not be continued. Another point which he wished to press upon the consideration of the House was the necessity of sonic reduction in our colonial establishments, which did not require to be kept upon the same footing as in the time of war. Mr. HART DAVIS concurred with the Noble Mar quis in all the statements he had made respecting the dis. tressed state of the Colonies, and in all the opinions he had professed. Mr. BRIGHT observed that these excessive duties on the West India productions were burthens laid on as war taxes, and ought long since to have been removed. Be sides, he believed that nothing could be more effectual in promoting reformation and improvement in the West India Islands, than a revision of those duties; for it must be perfectly evident that so long as people felt themselves oppressed, so long would they entertain but little anxiety to carry on improvement. In the name of humanity, therefore, he called on the House of Commons to look with a favourable eye upon this application.—(Hear.)— There was another point to which he wished to advert. The planters complained riot alone of the excessive duty upon sugar, but also of that upon the spirits produced in these islands, which the fiscal regulations prohibited from these markets they had a right to enjoy. In conclusion, he trusted time planters would be looked at with a view to conciliation. The SPEAKER was then proceeding to put the ques tion that the petition be brought up, when Sir. BERNALL said that he thought the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer was called upon to say something ; be thought, indeed, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was called upon to state whether the West India hotly had a right to entertain hopes of redress founded upon any solid basis. He Neal not incl of those who were disposed either to deny or disregard the distress existing in this country. He acknowledged and deplored it, but he maintained that there were no people so depressed as the inhabitants of the West India Islands. None whose comfort, well being, and very livelihood, were more immediately in danger. Since 1792, the price of sugar had never been so low as it was at that moment. The price was then twenty. three shillings per cwt., while the duty still remained at 275. per cwt. Besides, a great deal of sugar introduced into this market was of a very inferior quality; and here, as the duty was not an ad valorem duty, it pressed with such extreme severity, as actually to amount to about 150 per cent. In time of war the West Indian Planters had not complained of the increase of 12s. in the duty—nor had they any right to complain, considering it, as they did, only as au augmentation which would exist during the war. They accordingly looked upon the whole ar rangement as a Solemn . league and covenant, which bound them on the one part to contribute to the wants of time Government during the continuance of the war, and which bound time Administration on the other part to re lieve them of the additional burthen wherever the resto ration of peace might bless the mother country..--(Hear, hear.) But in vain did they rely upon time good feith of time Administration. Peace was restored to Europe, but WOOL TRADE. The Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition signed ISI respectable farmers of Romney Marsh, praying their Lordships to alter the duties on Foreign Wool. The N 4,1,1, Duke took this opportunity of correcting a mistake which had gone abroad relative to his intention to make en tain motions respecting the Wool Trade. The Noble Duke Legged to say he had no intention of making such nantions unless numerous petitions were presented on the ,object. The Houee adjourned at a Quarter-put Five o'clock to Thursday next. HOUSE OF COMMONS—(LAST NIGHT.) Tho SPEAKER took the Chair at Ten liinutes to Four o'clock. A great number of private Bills were brought up and read a first time. EAST INDIA TRADE. Mr. W. DUNDAS presented a petition front the Cor poration of Merchants of the City of Edinburgh, praying for a removal of the restrictions on the trade between this country and the East Indies. MALT TAX. Sir E. KNATCHBULL presented four petitions from places in the county of Kent, praying for a repeal of the Malt Tax ; and also several other petitisrus front the same comity, complaining of distress, and praying for relief. Colonel SIBTHORPE presented a petition from Horn castle, which he read at length. It set forth in strong language the distress under which the country was labour ing, and prayed the Honourable House to retrace its steps. After a few observations from Sir W. INGILBY, the petition wes ordered to lie upon the table. Mr. WELLS presented a petition from the inhabitants of Tonbridge Wells, praying fur a repeal of the Malt Tax. The Hon. Member said the petition had his most hearty support. Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from the city of Waterford, complaining of the conduct of the Mayor in a late election, and also a petition from Drogheda, set ting forth the evils that daily resulted front the operations of the Sub-letting Act, and praying for a repeal. The Hon. Member then moved for certain Returns connected with the Coal Trade of Dublin. Sir JOHN OWEN presented a petition from Narbeth, complaining of general distress REDUCTION OF TAXES. Mr. ROBINSON gave notice that on Friday, the 19th of March, I,e should submit a resolution to the House to the effect—That it was expedient to relieve the labouring classes, by a repeal of the Duties on Sugar, Candles, Soap, Malt, and Beer, and every other article practicable of reduction, and that it was advisable that an equitable Property Tax should be resorted to. CLARENCE BRIDGE. Mr. CHARLES PALLMER brought up a Bill for erecting a Bridge across the River Thames, from Church street, Lambeth, to the Horse Ferry-road, Westminster. Mr. HUME moved for returns relating to the collection of the assessed taxes. The Hon. Member said that he had received information from all parts of the country, that there was more difficulty in collecting these taxes than all the others put together, which fact, when the returns ware presented he should be able to prove, and also that the public revenue would be much benefited by a repeal of them. Mr. FIUME then moved for a return of the salaries and expenses of the Receivers-General of Assessed Taxes in Ireland.—Ordered. Mr. HUME said, that he did strongly object to the 'Naval Estimates being all voted in one sum. lie wished to have the expenditure of the Marines under a different head, which was necessary to enable him to ascertain tire pay of the officers and men of that corps, so as to form a correct estitnute of the expenditure of last year. Mr. HUME then moved fur a return, which l i e hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not object to, it was fur the amount of the rental of each parish within the hills of mortality. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had ne objection to the returns, but would rather hare a little time to consider of it. Mr. HUME would not press his motion. Mr. WESTERN presented a petition from a place in "sex, preying for a repeal of the Malt Ta x. R. COLBORNE was of opinion that the tax on 1 beer was not of that injury to the country . 'enerally supposed. It did not increase the 't of porter more than one halfpenny. sake this opportunity of calling the -,Friend, the Chancellor of the eystem.—(Hear, hear. )- -see up that important subject, it would ..core advantage than reducing the duty on beer. it would also in his (Mr. Cc 'Thorne's) opinion be of con siderable advantage to the let touring classes if the duty on spirits were raised 2s. or as. a gallon. lie threw out these hints as worthy the co.e.sideration of his Right Hun. Ft lend. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it was his ;intention on an early-day to move for a Committee to inquire into the present sta.te of the Licensing System, particularly as related to the licensing of houses fur the • sale elf beer.—( Hear, hear. ) 11r. WM. SMITH said that the reduction of duty on BritiZa spirits had bees attended with very bad results. He had no hesitation in declaring that it had not at all benefited any part of the community. The introduction of Irish and Scotch spirits, at a reduced duty, into Eng land, had been the means of causing that abominable beverage to be taken by the lower classes instead of beer. That one Act hail done more harm than any Act had done gook. since the time of the union of the countries. lir. HUME said that when this subject came properly forrard for discussion be should be able to show that • r same outcry kad been made fifty years ago against the general consumption of spirits, in consequence of I the eluty upon it being so low. The notion of benefit sariaw ig from a high duty upon spirits was quite erroneous. Til e duty that had been removed from spirits in Scotland Feed . completely put an end to the practice of smug tiling; The smugglers throughout the West High tatde who bad been so numerous, had now bee e ed to their sober and industrious habits. It was ex 'yt e g . y bard that those who chose and could indulge in e 4 of whit, and who had been so anxious to have the dui f: ef off it, should grudge the use of spirits to the y ee of society. The lowering of the wine duty had led poorer cleft ed consumption, and greatly to the advantage to an merest A beery duty either upon spirits, or any ~ of the revenue , ort, was calculated only to demoralize and -article of that ciety. The Chancellor of the Exchequer greatly injure 8G erred the duty upon spirits, and also to ought to have lo\ salt duty when the duty on wine was tihsve lowered the 1. eat lured. The CFIANCEIL ribjeet was to mar e fen ing system with, re 4 Per' l _, means of a fr „ r s ale those interest' f or o siii t o ,imposed. Mr OR of the EXCHEQUER said his a Committee to consider the lieens to beer, and if possible to give the beer without at all endangering ',ose restrictions were originally st his Right llon. Friend 'ear away the difficulties tw than by any other -14 was .lauio. SMIT , ro od d® stare in thi s Wil y to ct, not a single shilling of their duty was taken off.—(llear, ; N ance: rally regardi.ng the Parochial I. , hear, hear.)—He requested the House to remember also ing' e act it was po,-sible to reduce. the opinion, and that the West India body had been deceived ; because Mr. G meral GASCOIONE concurred in Id not be inti- Robinson, now Lord Goderich, when Chancellor of the ow 8. ., , ,j, t Hots; Gentleman won. - the Repro- Exchequer, had declared that if the additional Is. 6d. a 1 t I s oped i a ja i -ed by any opposi tion he met with Iron. 'nly was of gallon on ruin were found to be a prohibitory duty, the t entiv sues of Ireland And Seotland. He certat on beer, W e st India body would have a fair claim to demand to ougltt to be a reduction of duty have these duties put upon a level with those on other ovinii in that there ought to be increased.r the spirits. Yet, what was now the case ? The duty levied 1 t bat the duty on epirit.i. nu 'lu' l / .. CORD greed agreed itt the propriety tt el . t ..,.... z _ r on British manufactured spirits was l's. a gallon, while 1 e ' • but tiould not concur in the prO;rior n m ,, i7 ,o tkat on rum was Si. 6d., and that on the Scotch and -)e- ' "Z e ' duty on , P i v itm. He thought gentle'. , e i ' „..,., :visit spirits was 2s. 10d. Therefore, it was clear "ti litei4t most willing to indulge in the useofN t V i ile ~,, . t . , : u.t tl,.t the introduction of ruin into these two last court to era the too ept to view with antinfair feeling those to he things t. i tries , -, as neat to imkossible; the planter being like igul therefore, , -6, (Aslg,.. - -d to pay one guinea far the cask, inde x-A intributen to the happiness, to amusements, e I the poorer classes of society. ... ''-ven hull -baiting, cock- pen .• of frei.g.llt, .insurance, landing, and sale charges. -there were those who railed against ) the ' irst to But there was anotn:r matter which pressed still more fighting, and tio on, who nevertheless; were it, .ol,e in heavily upon the West :ndian body, and created a still keep their hunters and hounds, and to i d t. ,old not greater giievance, and that NV,W'4 the advantage in the in sports of another tiort,---(Hear, hell'.) 1 ! .‘ in troduction nf their sugars into the European markets af bell) thinking that while the higher classes indulgedi(„olo. forded to Cuba and other foreign enL , llieS and states, -.their luxuries they did not sufficiently consider t Le .0 ia N yliere thy bLIYe-trade exiattid M its Breatcat exttl,t, A - 04 . the pour; their Duly mut vol requentli w' - t Tart WAS extremely hard that this country should have been put to an expense of upwar,ls of two millions, for the pur pose of putting down this traffic, and that our vessels should be still kept cruising on the unhealthy coast of Africa at a heavy annual expenditure, and yet that our colonists should be the only persons prevented from im porting slaves to the West India Islands, while such im mense advantages accrued to the foreigners %rho continued to pursue the practice ; that the only result to be antici pated was, that we should be ere long altogether driven out of the market by other powers. Without entering into more details, he would content himself with saying, that there was a prima . facie ease before the House and the Administration, which deserved their consideration; an, he trusted he would not call in vain upon the Right lion. the Chancellor of the Exchequer to say, if the West India body would be justified in entertaining any hope of relief final the burdens under which they were then suffering He had one more observation to make. He understood that a treaty with Austria was in progress. The produc tions of the British West India Islands were at that time shut out from the markets of Austria and Russia ; but he thought that if Government conducted the provisions of this Treaty with a firm hand, an opening might be sift:cad for our Colonial pt °duce into these countries. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER bogged to assure the Noble Marquis (Chandos) and the Hon. Gen tleman (Mr. Bernal), that if he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had forborne making any observations upon the subject of that petition, it was not from any want of respect towards them, or front any want of sympathy for the distresses of the petitioners; lint compelled as he had been on many preceding occasions, in accordance with the line of duty he had laid down for himself, to withhold in formation respecting the intentions of the Administration as to the revision or repeal of any portion of the taxes_ he felt that it would be equally a deviatio❑ from his duty, as one of his Majesty's Ministers, in this, as in any former instance, if he spoke one word respecting that petition. He believed, and had always expressed this belief, that no course could possibly be Inure inconvenient than that of promulgating the opinions or proclaiming the views of Government upon the occasion of some petitions being presented ; and in the present instance, it would be pecu liarly inadvisable and unnecessary, because the Sugar Duties came annually under the consideration of Parlia ment, and so presented his Majesty's Ministers with the best and most desirable epportnnity of explaining their views and opinions upon that question.—(Hear, hear.)— It was for these reasons alone he declined giving the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bernal) or the Noble Marquis (Chandos) any satisfaction with respect to the intentions of Govern ment respecting the questions touched upon in the peti tion. But this much he could say, that he was not one of those who was insensible to the value of the Colonies ; on the contrary, he gave them hie most sincere sympathy under the pressure of their present difficulties, and he would be most ready to take' all means to alleviate their distresses which were compatible with the general interests of the country.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. W. SMITH had it in his power to controvert the statements which had been made ; he would, however, postpone all observations fort the present. Mr. C. GRANT reminded the House that it had been his lot, for the last two Sessions, to recommend for their adoption a reduction in the tax upon sugar. The opinions which he had then professed were abundantly confirmed by the statements he had heard that night—by the prac tical experience with respect to the price of sugar—and by the distress existing in the Islands. He would accordingly wait for the Chancellor of the Exchequer's explanation with respect to the financial state of the country, and the reductions that might be contemplated in taxation ; and then he would introduce some measure upon the subject. Ile would not wait for the opportunity of the annual ques tion with respect to the price of sugar, for it came on at too late a period of the Session. Mr: HUME was extremely surprised at the Hon. Mem ber for Norwich declaring that he could controvert the statements that had bee❑ made. With respect to the ques tion before the House, he thought it should be taken up. not as a Colonial but as a National question, for it was one in which the people of England were deeply interested. He had always been an advocate for Colian;al interests ; and his idea was, that it was useless to attempt to keep up the price of West India sugar above the European average. He would advise the reduction of duties both on East and West India sugars, and the free admission of both, whereby both would gain, as they would then have an ad valorem duty of 50 or 60 instead of 100 per cent. He thought the duty ought to be the sa:ne upon all the different kinds of sugars. The next thing was to set the Colonies free, to let them be no longer bound by those iron chains which fettered their best exertisne. They ought to be allowed to purchase stores and all kinds of supplies in the cheapest markets that the world would afford them, if they could find, which be did not expect, any market cheaper than that of Great Britain ; and then they ought to be allowed to export their produce wherever they pleased. If that course was pursued towards the Colonies, we should make them able to maintain themselves, instead of being, as they now were, a burden to this country. Mr. HUSKISSON should nut feel himself bound at this moment to follow the non. Member for Montrose through all the points on which he had touched, but still it was quite true that this question did claim peculiar atten tion, and at a fit opportunity he should be prepared to show that by a long course of measures, Government and Parliament had given peculiar claims to the West India proprietors to their protection. He would state his con viction, that great as might be the pressure and the diffi culties upon other interests in this country, there was none labouring under more difficulties, and requiring more urgently that relief should be given to it, than the West India interest. The petition was brought up and read. The Alarquis of CHANDOS, as he had no wish to take the Government by surprise on this subject, had in.. formed them more than four months ago of the nature of this petition. Mr. BROUGHAM wished to take this opportunity of asking the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite a question re lating to the admission of slave evidence in the Courts of Justice in our Colonies. He begged to remind the Right Hon. Gentleman, that when he was about some time since to introduce a Bill for that purpose, he was told that it would be unnecesattry for bins to do so, for that it was the intention of Government to bring i❑ a measure for the amendment of the present system of judicial administra t,ion, of which the admission of slave evidence formed a part. He now wished to ask whether the Goverment still entertained the same intentions, and at what time the Right Hon. Gentleman would introduce the measure? Sir G. MURRAY said, in reply to the question put by the lion. and Learned Gentleman, that he had a perfect recollection of what had occurred on the occasion to which allusion was now made. Ile still entertained an anxious wish to bring forward the measure he then spoke of, as he was fully aware of its importance, not only with respect to the.ainelioration of the slaves in the West Indies, but of the colonists generally. De begged to assure the Hon and Learned Gentleman that he was ready to do all in his power to promote the object of the admission of slave evi dence in the Courts, as he felt perfectly satisfied of the benefits that must result from it. The only obstacle that at present existed to it was, the expense that must be in curred in affording compensation to the Judges, for losses that would he occasioned, in consequence of the alterations proposed to be made. On that account, and with a view to save expense, he had abstained from making out the appointments of the Chief Justice of Tobago, and Chief Justice of St. Vincent's; and he hoped that that delay would have the effect of reducing the amount to be pail by way of compensation. He hoped this statement would be considered a sufficient pledge of the intention cf the Go vernment to pursue the measures previously promised. Mr. KEIT El DOUGLAS had understood from the Right Hon. Gentleman that the same reason existed last yca • r for not then bringing forward this measure. The consequence of this had been that for two, years the Island of Tobago had been without a Chief Judge to administer the law. Ile thought that was an evil of no small magni tude, since there would then be no others to administer justice to the inhabitants hut the resident proprietors. In his opinion the benefit of the saving by no means compen sated for the evil of thus leaving the Colony without a pro per Judicial Officer. Sir G. MURRAY felt called upon to say a few words in consequence of what had just fallen front the lion. Member. The lion. Member was mistaken in supposing that the situation of Chief Justice of Tobago had been vacant for two years. The fact was, that soo❑ after the vacancy occurred, a legal gentleman had been appointed to the office ; but just as he was about to take his &pa-- Lure for the colony, another situation fell vacant, to which he was iemoved. Ho had already pointed out to the House the reason for the delay, and he was not aware that any practical inconvenience had resulted from it. If there had been any, he would have found means to remedy it liv making a temporary appointment without filling up an (Ace that would create a greater expence than usual to the country, in consequence of the intended alterations. Lord NUGENT thought the evil of haying no other persons but the resident proprietors to administer justice was greater than the benefit obtained by the saving of the compensation referred to ; and be trusted the delay would soon be terminated. He wished to ask whether the evi dence to be given by the Commissioners, as to the state of the Colonies, had closed? _ Sir G. 31 . 1.1111tAY said the Commksion had ceased, au:l there was no other obstacle to carrying. the report of the Cornmi,sioners into effect but the expence. Lord NUGENT conceived the expence to he so neces sary, that lie for one would not oppose itv being ineurrol. The petition was then received, and ordered to lie on the table. SUPPLY. Mr. HUME asked whether the notice given for to-mor row night war merely lormal—or whether the Right Hon. Gentleman intended to take any vote? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that for some time past there had been a sort of rule agreed on for the convenience of all, relating to business to be done on Wednesdays, and he hoped the House would not be disposed to violate the rule, and make them work Lard every night. REPRESENTATION OF MANCHESTER, BIR MINGHAM, AND LEEDS. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that before he proceeded with the motion of which he had given notice, he wished to lay before the House a petition which had been com mitted to his care from the inhabitants of the extensive and important town of Sheffield. The petitioners com plained, that several large, populous, and wealthy towns were at present excluded from the exercise of the elective franchise, whilst in very many instances that privilege was enjoyed by the inhabitants of small places of nu importance, and was often exercised in an unworthy manner. The petitioners therefore prayed that the franchise might be extended to their town, and to such other populous, wealthy, and intelligent places. Mr. MARSHALL expressed his cordial concurrence in the prayer of the petition. (Beyond this the purport of the Hoe. Member's remarks could not be collected in the gallery, owing to the very low tone in which he spoke.) Mr. STUART WORTLEY said that he would not interpose any delay to the motion of his Noble Friend by any remarks on the subject of the petition, if he bad not been particularly requested to give it his support. He would not attempt to canvass the question about to be submitted by his Noble Friend, as no doubt it would be amply discussed in the course of the evening. All that he would say respecting it was this—that if Parliament should extend the principle of direct representation to Manchester, Birmingham, and Leeds, he thought it ought likewise to be extended to the town of Sheffield. Indeed, in the selection of important towns for representation, he ;lid not see why Sheffield, a wealthy manufacturing trwn, containing a population of 80,000 souls, should be omitted. If, therefore, lie repeated, the Legislature should deem it advisable to extend the elective franchise to the towr.s he had named, he would support its extension also to Sheffield. The petition was then brought up and read, arid ordered to be printed. Lord JOHN RUSSELL, before commencing his ad dress, moved that the Order of the Day of the 19th of March, IS2I, for the third reading of a Bill for tranfer ing the elective franchise to Leeds ; and that two other Orders of the Day for the second reading of the Bills (we did not get the dates) for extending the franchise to Bir mingham and Manchester should be entered as read. This having been done, the Noble Lord proceeded. Though he had not the smallest doubt as to the justice and expediency of the proposition which he was about to submit to the consideration of the Housa, yet he felt that much preju dice existed against it i❑ the minds of many whom he then addressed. Many Hon. Members had such deep-rooted dread of any thing like reform, from the fear of letting in any visionary theories on the subject, that they were un willing even to go one step, however far removed from. any such theory. To any such Hon. Members he would beg to observe, that if ever reform was founded, not on visionary but on practical grounds, it was that which he should have the honour to propose to the House. He also apprehended that objections would arise i❑ the minds of those who were called the landed interest. Ile feared that in the last few years a foolish jealousy had sprung up in that House between the landed sad commercial interests. Upon the nature or cause of that jealousy he would not then enter, but would only hope that whatever it was Hon. Members, if they did not lay it aside altogether, would at least suspend it for that night.--(Hear, hear.) —lf in a time of distress such as the present it was expe dient to unite men of all classes and shadee of opinion, in the endeavour to find some shades of relief, so it was also expedient that particular differences of opinion should not hinder the dispassionate discussion of a measure which con cerned the general interests. He was likewise under the apprehension that this motion would be opposed by the influence of Government in that House ; yet he could not but think, that if some Members of Government should oppose it, it would be extremely impolitic to bring the whole array of Government against such a proposition, as that a large, populous, and wealthy town ought to be directly represented in that House. There was an old remark of Lord Becton familiar to every one in the country, that " time is a great innovator." Had that Learned person lived in the present day, he might add, " taxation is a great innovator." He (Lord J. Russell) would impress on the attention of Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite, that there was leas feeling of liberality in the people towards Government, and more suspicion of its acts, in proportion as the people felt the burden of taxation, and that burden was always borue with more impatience, if not accompanied by what was felt to be co-extensive re presentation. In large - and populous towns the pressure of heavy taxation was always severely felt ; but it would be felt with inure repining and impatience when that town was left without the privilege of direct representation. The motion with which he would conclude would go to supply this defect in the towns he should name. It would be for leave to bring iu a Bill to extend the Elective Fran- chise to the towns of Manchester, Birmingham, and Leeds. This, however, lie intended should be, not a permanent but a temporary addition to the present number of Members, for he proposed to introduce a clause in the Bill, if the Howie should give hint leave to bring it in, to this effect, —that when hereafter the Legislature should find it ne• cessary to disfranchise any borough for corrupt practices, the franchise should not be transferred, but let drop alto gether. So that when those boroughs should have been thus dealt with, the number of Members would be reduced to what it was at the present moment. He should also propose that the qualifications for voting should be (as we understood) such as they already existed in • most large towns, but the right of voting should be confined to re sident voters, which would tend to shorten the time of election—( Hear, hear)—and would also tend materially to prevent bribery. The grounds on which he should rest his proposition for this Bill, it would not be difficult to state. It was a matter perfectly notoricus in history, when places, rendered important by their extent and the wetath and in telligence of the inhabitants, were not represented, it was the practice of Parliament to extend to such places the right of sending Representatives to the House, and many statutes were from time to time passed fur that purpose ; and the ground on which the franchise was thus conferred was, to use the words of the statute respecting Durham, which he had then before him, " in order that they might represent the condition of that place to Parliament."— Thus, then, the principle for which he should contend was formally recognized by several acts of the Legislature, as not only not being repugnant to, but as forming one of the constituent principled of the House of Commons. Another reason in favour of his motion was this—and it was on that account he had moved that the orders of the day for the reading of Bill, fir conferring the elective franchise on the towns of Manchester, Leeds, and Bir mingham, should be entered as read—that the House had, on recent occasions, recognized the principle that those towns needed representation, and that the ancient prac tice of Parliament should be applied to them. Ile felt, therefore, that he had established one proposition—that it eves the duty, and it was in the power of Parliament to give representation to places of sufficient importance to require it; and the other, that it had already decided in the case of the three towns he had named, that it would give the franchise when an opportunity occurred to ren der it necessary. He went in this case upon the broad ground that Parliament was not bound to wait for a vacancy in the representation in order• to confer the franchise in the manner he pointed out ; for if it did wait for such opportunity, there was but very little chance of those towns bring represented here. It was now ten years since he first brought forwin d the proposition that when the franchise of a borough lapsed by corruption, the vacancy created should be filled up by the transfer of the franchise to a lar g e town. Ministers at that time met his proposition, he would admit, in a manly way. Since that time, however, the franchise of other boroughs had become forfeited, but no successful step was taken to extend the franchise in the way he had proposed. Let tke House but consider the difficulties which were opposed to the endeavours to extend the franchise, when corruption was found to exist to a great extent in a borough. First, there was an examination in a Committee up stairs, and when the difficulties of the direct proof of bribery were got over there, the matter was brought down fur the con sideration of the House, and then they were met by the conundrum of the Right lion. Gentleman opposite (Mr. P e el), that because the county in which the corrupt bo rough was situated sent only eight Members to Parliament, therefore the franchise of the deliuqueut borough ought not to be transferred to a large and populous town.— (Hear, bear.)—But when all the difficulties were sur mounted in that 'Luse, and the 11111 sent up to the other Home of Parliament, it was met by obstacles inure difficult to get over. There were, it was well known, vet y many that House (the Rouse of Lords) who were opposed to the transfer to a largeristown under any circumstances. There were others there who felt great difficulty in admit ting the evidence of bribery to be conclusive; but both parties would join on the latter point ; en that the Bill , would be thrown out without any appearance of hostility to the general principle it contained. Thus, what was done for the remedy of corrupton, instead of becoming a remedy, would be found only to add to the evil. Such, then, being the insuperable difficulties attending that course, he was prepared to take another and a more simple ground ; and he would put it to tl:e House to say, whether the claims of the towns he had named were not so strong for admission to the privilege of direct representation here, as that the House ought to take up the qua stion of their fitness of representation by itself, and go with it to the other House.—(llear, hear.)—That course would have this advantage,—that not being a mixed Bill of penalty and of concession, the objections to it should be on one broad ground, and then, if it should be rejected, the real motives of the hostility to it would be apparent to the world.—(Hear, hear.)—He would now briefly call the attention of the House to the history of the progress of those towns he had named, since the passing of the Act of Union with Scotland, to show that since then their cir cumstances had so changed as that some of the stipulations of that Act against the increase of the number of Mem bers for England ought not now to be applicable to them. In the year 1708 the population of Manchester was 8,000. In the year 1753 it was 27,000. In 1791 it woe 70,000. In 1821 it was 133,000 ; and the number of inhabitants in the town and the neighbourhood included in the Rill for transferring the franchise front Penryn to Manckester was 186,000. The population of Leeds in 1'771. was 17,000 ; in 1801 it was 35,000 ; and in 1821 it was 83,000. Birmingham, at the Restoration, contained a population of 5,000 ; in 1700, 15,000 ; in 1781, 50,000; in 1791, 73,000; and in 1821 it had increased to 106,000. Now he would ask whether this progress in the extent of population was not such a change in the con dition of those towns as required a change in the sys. tem to be pursued towards them, and called for a di rect representation in Parliament But the change in the increased number of inhabitants was not the only one. They had also advanced in the same proportion in arts and industry, is wealth and intelligence. In Manchester and its immeditte vicinity—he meant the parish in which it was situated—the county rote was assessed on a rental of '750,000/. He had asked a person well qualified to give him the information he required, whether he might not set down the property contained in and immediately round the town at 30,000,0001., and he was told that to fix it at that sum would be considerably to under-rate its real amount. The poor rates of Manchester were estimated at 1E4,000/. per annum, and the revenue of the canals at 300,0001. annually. But no greater proof of the wealth and importance of that great depot of internal commerce could be adduced than had been furnished within the last few years in the enormous undertaking for facilitating c ommunication with Liverpool—he alluded to the Liver pool and Manchester railway at present in progress—au enterprise which cost a yearly expenditure of 55,0001., and which, ere completed, would require an outlay in gross number's to the amount of 800,0001. The convey ance of goods by means of this project would henceforward be accomplished at three times the rate of expedition now effected in the carriage of letters, and for a mile and a ball before it reached Liverpool it was conducted through a subterranean passage. Nor was this opulent town de ficient in resources of another description, which equally indicated its moral and intellectual advancement. Its philosophical institutions were remarkable for intelligence, liberality, and learning, in proof of which it was only necessary to name the President of the principal, Mr. Dalton, so well known amongst the professors of physical science, who had distinguished himself by his invention of an improvement in bleaching, for it was not now for • the first time to be asserted that the higher branches of science were intimately connected with the humbler de partments of practical domestic usefulness and household convenience. When he considered, besides, that Manches ter was the mighty centre from whence the most flourish ing manufacture of the country radiated, he confidently maintained that it was pre-eminently entitled to repreaen tation. Its goods were to be :teen in almost every quarter of the globe, its productions were to be obtained in every part of the world, wherever sail was spread or ship could pene trate ; but within the walls of that House its representatives hail never appeared. As to Birmingham, it was truly de scribed by the Hon. Member for Bletchingley to contain property ameunting to upwards of 300,0001. per annum ; a fact which in itself was sufficient to establish its claims to be represented. Then Leeds was the seat of another great source of our commercial prosperity,—the woollen manufacture,—and possessed equal pretensions to a voice in- the Legislature of the country. It was probable lie might be told that those places were already represented by the members for the counties to which they respec tively appertained ; but he would appeul to the past expe rience of the House whether that could be considered an adequate or fair representation. Those gentlemen who were returned for counties were commonly attached by property and connections to the landed istereat, and might, for the most part, be said to have a permanent seat, after they once had secured their election ; they therefore had but little concern in subjects of paramount importance to those towns which were only nominally within the sphere of their constituents. How was it possible that the Mem ber for Lancashire, for example, however zealous he might be,—and zealous he unquestionably wan,—could be able to attend to all the various and complicated interests of such a place as Manchester It was not to be expected, nor were those towns partakers of the advantages accruing front representation. The consequence was, that, instead of being heard through their own members in that House, whenever any question affecting the cotton, iron, or wool len manufactures was on the eve of discussion, the par ties interested were constrained to send delegates to the metropolis, for the purpose of conferring with the Mem bers of his Majesty's Government, and endeavouring to make them comprehend the true merits of such question. Great, however, as was the evil of this sys tem, as it affected Menchester, Leeds, and Birming ham, a still greater evil he was persuaded had re sulted to Parliament itself.—(Hear, hear.) Did it not prevent the inhabitants, numerous as they were, from looking with any- confidence to Parliamentary discus sion ? Dad it not also prevent that House from assuming the character of persons who equally represented all classes of their fellow subjects, and so far detract from the autho rity which they arrogated ? More than one question was even now pending in which those populous towns were materially concerned. The East India Charter was one. How could they pretend to investigate such a subject as it deserved, when they had no eceurate means of ascertaining how far it aft cted the interests of their manufactures and principal exports in trade I—(Hear.) —Another such ques tion was that on the banking system ; and here he de n-tended how they could assume, in discussions of this netnre, the appearance of men who were able to debate them, posses. ing knowledge commensurate with their im portance, ignorant as they mint be of the li!clings and wants of so large a portion of the community ?—(Hear.)— Various objections, he was aware, might be urged against his motion, but he would content himself with noticing one or two of the principal. It might be said that such measures were virtually prevented by the Union with Scot land and Ireland, as they would necessarily increase the representation of the House of Commons. But he would beg of Members who suggested :those objections to con sider whether such an increase could possibly do any real injury to the weaker parties in practice. Assuredly the presence of additional Members could not prejudice either of these countries in the least, and in principle it would un deniably operate for their interest and advantage, as it would afford them a plea and precedent for bringing for- , ward the claims of their own towns to being similarly re presented, if any of them should hereafter attain an equal degree of importance. At the same time he would remind the House, that neither of the Unions referred to had been ever considered as compacts to be inviolably observed.— (Hear, hear.)—ln the case of the heritable jurisdictions the principle was encroached on, and treated as a au bordinete consideration ; nor was that the only caws in which it had been set aside. The Actfor the relief of the Catholics was avowedly an infraction of the compact, as it had been formerly provide:i that the Members for Scotland should always continue Protestants. But the argument founded on this compact was triumphantly refuted by a Noble Lord in the other House (Earl Grey), in one of the most eloquent, luminous, and powerful speeches that it had ever been his fortune to listen to. But how did he overturn the oh• jection ? Not by showing that there was no infringement of the compact contemplated, but by demonstrating that Parliament, when acting to the best of their judgment for the benefit of the whole state, was entitled to overlook those partial provisions in favour of any particular depen dency. Another objection which he anticipated was this: it might be alleged that it six members were admitted, the principle, once acknowledged, would be extended to per haps 20,—perhaps 30 or 10, and so on indefinitivelv. The petition front Sheffield would no doubt be laid hold on as a pretext for enforcing this argument, which wo certainly plausi'sle and logical in appearance, but nevertheless had uo real foundation in truth. The three towns which formed the subject of the present motion stood in circum stances peculiar to themselves, being the capitals of three great branches of trade : but if Sheffield should at any future period, attain the same rank, he saw no reason for withholding from it a similar privilege. On like grounds he would advtnate the extensipn of this principle to any town in Ireland or Scotland, which might reach aueh an eminence as was long since attained by Manchester, Bir mingham, or Leeds; but it was not probable that it could ever be applied, with propriety, to more than four or fire towns in our whole dominions at the utmost. They would contend that theru could lie no limitation of the principle; but he still asserted that it could not extend beyond those cases already contemplated. The House, how ever, it should be remembered, were not always so delicate , or fastidious on the subject of an extension of principle. • Had they enter tained any scruples of this nature when the disfranchisement of the 40s. freeholders of Ireland was under consideration? That measure was introduced to meet existing lucid circumstances, and Members well knew that it was not intended to make it an excuse fur going farther when the particular grievance which it was designed to remove should be counteracted. Nevertheless, abstractedly speaking, the same principle might be carried to the disfranchisement of the 40s. freeholders in this country, to the 101., 201, or 1001. annual incomes, or even to an indefinite extent. The case of the Irish 40n. voters, he repeated, was peculiar to themselves ; and the opposition, on the ground of the principle's probable extension, had met with neither encouragement nor success. He had thus endeavoured to state the objections of those who viewed his motion as a dangerous inroad on the Constitution ; but he widely differed from many Members , in their opinions as to the quarter from whence danger would arise. In his opinion, they had most reason to ap prehend evil from the Legislators who constantly and in variably resisted all endeavours at rational improvement and reformation. Indi v id ua l s o f t hi s comp l ex i on seeme d . to have mistaken the fabric of the Constitution for a Grecian temple, perfect in all its parts, and complete in its architecture as an edifice, which could not suffer altera tion without being injured in its symmetry and impaired in its proportions ; whereas it was really a Gothic struc ture, susceptible of enlargement consistently with the in tegrity of its ornaments and the security of its duration. In these times, when the intelligence of the people greet apace,—when their moral strength waxed greater and greater daily,—were they prepared to refuse giving their consideration to the increased claims which such import ant accessions had brought along with them? was not that House, reduced to its present state partly by corrup tion and partly by usurpation, in want of the additional in fluence, and talent, and information which might be. thenceforward acquired by admitting so large, important, and intelligent a class of the community to a share iu their councils through representatives of their own ? Did they .4. not require the aid of this moral and political reinforce ment to enable them to meet their enemies face to face, and strengthen their dubious hold upon public opinion ? When he looked at other countries the wisdom and policy • of the :measure that ho suggested was forced even still more imperiously on his conviction. In a neighbour ing kingdom they could not shut their eyes to the •it' fact that a collision between royal authority and po pular resistance was rapidly approaching, although all must regret that some compromise was not contem plated which might save society from the consequences of such a struggle.--(Hear.)—But it was for them to profit • by the example, and awaken in time to a perception of the nice mechanist: of their representative Government, which in all countries and under all situations contingent on the existence of a state, must be considered a piece of machinery of very delicate construction. It behoved thoFe who, like himself; were lovers of liberty without disorder,—of peace without slavery,—to watch anxiously at a period like the present, and endeavour so to accom- • modate the system to the altered times and circumstances as to render it worthy the respect and affection of the people.—(Cheers.)—The Noble Lord then moved for leave to bring in a Bill to enable the towns of Manchester, Leeds, and Birmingham to return Repre.entittiree to serve in Parliament. Mr. 'WILI3RALIAIII rose to second the motion, but from the crowd of Members leaving the House, and the other noises in every part of it, the earlier observations of the lion. Member were inaudible. When heard, he was understood to say that he wets a little at a lose to undo-. • stand the consistency of those who, having proposed awl carried a change of the Jury system, could now come for -•q ward to resist a change in the Representation, on the ground that innovation was not to be tolerated. The Jury system was a most important part of the Constitution, and that the Right Hon. Gent. opposite had not scrupled to change.—in most important, beneficial changes, lie would admit—but still changes. The Representation was . • not a whit a more important portion of the Constitution than that which all Jurists agreed was an integral part of it, and at once the pride and the glory of the British Law. ' a . It was an institution as important, though not more stn- • • portant, than the representative portion of our Govern ment; yet the Reformers at the other side of the Hoinfe had not scrupled to lay their hands upon it, and to re model it according to their own notions. The alterations so made were improvements, unquestionably; but those a -- by whom they were made could not deny that they were. Reformers. The landed interest, no doubt, were fully aware of the defects in the present state of the Representa tion ; but it was observable, that whenever any change ' was proposed, they immediately endeavoured to turn that change to their own advantage, by proposing increased re presentation of their own body. Every chauge was to be in their favour, and against their rivals and opponents.-- . He was perfectly aware that the authority of Lord Chatham might be cited against his (Mr. W.'s) opposition to au in crease of the Representatives of the landed interest ; cer tainly the opinion of that Noble Lord was, that the number of County Representatives ought to be increased ; but that was because he thought them, and justly thought !' them, less venal thau the Representatives of the boroughs; not because he did not think the commercial and manufac turing towns inadequately represented, but because he eon. sidered that the numbers opposed to the corrupt borough interest ought to be as great as possible. He (Mr. W.) was perfectly aware of the defects ig the county represeu tation, and he should be perfectly ready to support any measure for its improvement. No measure could posasbly • ' do a greater service to the country than one having for its object to improve the state of the county representation la ' various ways ; far instance, in shortening the duration of elections, by improving the manner of taking the polls, and by putting an end to time infamous riot and dehanchery which prevailed at almost all County Elections, The effect of the present system of county representation was to place it all in the hands of the higher aristocracy. It wan alleged that the towns mentioned by the Noble Lord did not manifest that anxiety for the possession of Represeu tatiyes which would make them worthy of possessing that advantage—nothing could be more contrary to the fact.— At a meeting held at one of these towns, at which every class and description of persons—Radical and High Churchman, Whig and Tory—assembled and acted with the most cordial and complete unanimity, the cry was for a Representation. But whether they desired it or not, it ought to be conferred upon them—for the power of send ing Members to Parliament was not only a right and a privilege, but a sacred duty. He wished to say a few words to those who would have nothing but a complete and sweeping Reform. Now he was content, for the time being, with accepting what could be obtained, never at the same time foregoing what might hereafter be acquired. He would put it to the advocates of a sweeping and gene ral reform, whether they had advanced a single step by re jetting the practical though partial improvements within their reach; did they not, on the contrary, rather retie grade? What his Noble Friend proposed he did not ac cept as the full measure of reform—as the full payment and discharge of the debt which the Legislature owed the country ; but he accepted it as an act of simple juatiou and good policy—as one grand step in practical reform, in finitely more valuable than the most brilliant theories in which the mind of a visionary would indulge; it wils ;}Qt a payment in full, but it was a first instainaent, and as such he accepted it—he took it as an cermet of good in tentions, as a means of averting the shock which some Members apprehended—or, at least, of diminishing its force, if it should come. He called upon the House to support the motion of his Noble Friend, as they regarded the great and important duties which they were called on to perform. Lord SANDON could not agree with the Noble Lord's _ . motion ; and therefore should move as an amendment that it was expedient that all boroughs in which gross and no torious corruption prevailed extensively should cease bu permitted to return Members to Parliament - 1 Yid iinit the right to return Members taken from sushi borough, should he given to some great unrep9.ented town, or some of the largest counties. Mr. TWISS—IIe conid not agree either in the motion or the amendment that had been presented to the House, not that he was disposed to set himself in opposition to ' ly p 4 a r ' t i g eUa e ' F ' why 8 1 every species of reform, but because he f e lt th at h e cou ld not adopt either of the courses proposed without cumpro ndsing his own judgment. With respect to the amends , went that had been of f e red t o the notice of the House, it was not pretended by ally of th e Hon. Members who lard q i 4 preceded him that there was any great or crying gr',,,yalark to he thatult at House this should moment, co urse in future. As the law cf Et gland now s t o od, th e re w a s not any one in this country who could not have the privilege of elective franchise if he chose ; and therefore he did not see that this question pre sen t e d th e g reat diffi cuhies which had been ;ittendant upon th e Catholic Ques- • tion. According to the arrangement made at the end of e ise pledge and b itself e t f l, 7% 4 1 the seventeenth century, it appeared to him that the Crnwn could not increase the number of Mentlpexa in that Since I franehi Procee4 kn yea ask, w Chester opinim lion w and tin which Lord Lord, haol wi assault citutioi gan ut Dr. I four yea impress fi f which t ri Hous Whetike ing the sit) , of ( son or a number Inemis i Was ecni t , l3 "i; imy ti, 11110 lea iu th e , ti the &la w it was They in tiau•, ur it •Imiii( two per cbdoea