The Sun. — London, England, 1830-11-16 00:00:00

::~ ~ W~ ;:.'s li deelsre, ttiat while we are aware that the existing discon. ietma ariftintented by *Will anti unmineipleil egita , for the worst AM t most toisehievou* of p ur posea, we 'a e tinfortuniiiitrOinlinetal, that in the . perveruion of an te ol mar waist v 0414 institutions, in the totequal &sty; titimi of public hoidens. ;n the prodigality of public: expen iture, in the arbitrary 44101111er of some of our laws, and In the corruptions anti abuses: existing in many departments of Church and State, are tu be found in the original apil ex tensive sources of Ilisatimfaction and complaint ; We are, therefore, persuaded, that by a prudent and constitutional reform 'of admitted abuses alone (and eepeeially try a re vieion of our present eystem of Parliamentary repripienta. tion) eat the design" of the disaffected he defect !I, and tranquillity be pet manently restored and maintained;" A similar course will be adopted, not in one pr two other parishes only, but iu every parish of the enuntyi where resolutions in' the came spirit will be agred to. Therefore, if 'Mit - listen wish to preserve the liv s atul property of this, King's subject*, they must make retrench ments, anti not drive to desperation men of tteknoviledeed loyalty. Violence cattnot be put tinwit without rethoving the (Item which produced it. At the present minnent. the Governmetit is the cause of ell there evil , -•-(l(ear awl laughter).•-and I have no doubt, that the heut toll most effectual Act of Parliament will he to remove the Go vernment..--(Bear, hear.) ' Sir 11. PEEL—I deeply regret that the Tinto Member has connected two subjects Which have tot the most ter mute relation to each other—dissatisfaction with t to Go vernment and the legal and 'acknowledged means of sliew. ing it, anti thie infamous system of destroying the property of uneffentling indivithols. Ido not believe that h 144ana What he has been tatting ; , end I feint that npinio of the c 1 oolants:titan, of, his worths,. from communication* lie has liOnuelf made to foe. I appeal to the House, whether it was fin. the lion. itienther.to held out even the shadow 01 it palliation fur the late detestable proceedings, by erguitte , that Government is unpopitlar Mr., HUAIE---1 dill not. i , Sir B. PEEL--.Wlettever he may tin,' I acqu t those ~. , . , whit feel dissetisfied with Government of any perti 'tuition iii these infamous actin I ilo ,not Believe that thpre it a iliiiih Mg map in the maininunity, however oppeeed to Ge sell:menu who would perticipete in these excestiee, end tele, AVOUId not join any confederacy to put an end t o them, Whatever Italia, of, dissatiefectiop there may be, t tete is a elrar distinction between that' issatiefartion and nutrage, Milt)/ as every titan Ittittplta, ' 'Willi lion. Mentluir buttes truly, that voluntery iisStieiatione have been farmed in r at. ~ .. , , . . ~ rive* sintetions, to take precaution* against el mut of this nature; and I apprehend it will he'found that lit liutratee are empowered, on any reasonable apprehension pf milli tilted felony, to Wear ilk special constables. - I net, how. ever, quite reedy to consider any farther suggestion, liy 4 temporary law to render that power more effected. I earnestly teem - amend, front my experience, the lituntst local ' awl peruotoil. care ; for I believe that these crimes hate been frequently Committed through the agency of ono .or two individual* of respectable appearance—sb retipeetalilo as to die win snapicion--e-ainconneeted with the tinrith or village where the fire takes place. Such has been the case in more situations than one; and I can suggest nothing hot extreme local vigil . trice and 'associations atnong the in habitants, to proteet their tient prOtietty. I again repeat, that every measure it may be possible for me to adapt, without local kt i owledge,, shall be adopted.' I an pre , paeed to eonsider any rational law, for any were] purpoue. Mr. HUME hoped the House would 'allow him to ex plain. The Right lion. Ilitronet had certainly inietak.n or misrepresented what he (Mr. flume) hail add. At least nothing which hall fallen from hint could ,eve been . . stiffieient to slate muchintuition. Sir R. PEEL did not think that he misrepresented the 'f(oe. Gentleman. lilt he moat have greatly mistioder. "food hint, if be (Mr. Hume) (lid not say that q no Act . , of Pet lhontott which they could visa would have any effect in putting doWn the iliseffeetion, 'unless it were aecotn paiiied by eoncestiona.e ~ :sir. lIIJIIIE eald that it' was not the find time that $ ieetlemen heal aitrilmeil to hint language which he had ' iiii . o. used, awl itte.anioge which, he had never intended to . ViitiVey, 110 Vitali! lint '-iintirntly *NSA by whilst words' were' p ut itt his ttlfiuth iviiich he bud never thought of t o iiii v ;, lie; Wiailil repetdwilat the Right Ilon. Baronet Ltd sititot.ol.:,illka. ' "iliUitil lila ti no Aet of Paha b,,,ltt WOUlti kettklitvictlitilliesiutiefactien of the eat-nary, ,tali' tftitlariVrlll rii wipeere tleterminatism to re. !r. ti „ -Ain* ,t,. asiothy , ! .4 Oiloriteoance the br e it". 40 , 0 . , ,404 itleilit'itie Minietera thrill. 1 ( , . lean, 1 ,,, 4 ,,, , . •• Sir Or ETr AA. minen tiny intentien to•mierepreuent ii the 'menage air , ,iii. !trendier for - Middlt.sex, or to put A.. , , . , ,t false (4 , 411 li tar cpristrdLtlni; upon it. If the Ilion rileittlennee.Vlti l t 1 tyttens of Ile. li ta mil trite to be put down, he t. ir . 'Peet) fnuat'i . ety that de, elperyations Of the thin. tivro r it'inttli s were but little ealellated for that etri : et, and it'. re, lead, ill-timed. ' ' • Ir. If. SUMNER 'Rail, that with respeet to the Obser vitione male Ity the Hon. Msother for Sartey (Mr. Deni soil), he felt hound, 'as a M igisteite of that eonitty, to state that lilt aids feeling' AN trOt4tTeatiori' eXisted amongst the Peasantry. I. did not believe that any tit the uubjecto minded to lit unntlier (for t. Grentleinait (die Member fur , ~ Aiiihileeex) hail any influent:oolton their minds. i On one oecasion wide!' cume touter his (Mi. 11. Simnel's) own olteervatiou, this hilliettine, piiiiple of the neighlomilnuel were all usisioue to give esuistanee to the titincen of their }tower. • Ilia object, in the inquiry which lie had jo-t s eethe was to atieertain whether, Ott AA occasion when there e xiutesl tenoned& geolinilit for apprebeiteitur t h at iii.- thief wile (fatigued, the Ittegistrates - would be justified in Adopting batting m easure* of preceutiott ?—(Hear.) fair ; . • R. I , EF,L said that he must again occupy the at eention of the Honed, for the aihjeet - was of greet and iii. tweditte inenirtaties. There was lane etivantage in know .. ing . what the law on tie' subject really` was. s The Act parsed in the first year of his late Majesty, the let George IV.; cep, al, Inereaeed the power of Maglitrates in ap pointing special` ermatehles. erbi Act iesid--..“ In all cases in which it shall be made to appear, by inforinetion on oath of bouselielders, that any tumult, riot. or fact of vin. kiwis has taken place, or iii' likedy lit take place, and mey reiteunably be apprehended, the lifiagietrittee Ivey call (moo, by precept in writing, any householders or. (where residing within their respective divisions, or in the neighbourhood thereof, for suc h a time and in such a inenner es the said Jnutieee Shall think necessary for the preiservation of the puldic peace ; stiti Justices of the Session truly order allow anima; tube mete to oust special em it:gilts ;" and the Aix went ins to enable ;Magistrates to charge such alloteatte.li tlptat the county rates. It might, perheps, be deuirahle to extend that . Art still further, arid he sigattlil be ready to propose any itlteration oldie late that was nessetear). A MitAntelt, whose name iii' could - not learn, nettle a few itiatitiiide observations front the Opposition Benefit* Air J. E. IIItY.DGES addreosed the Rouge, urging diet England expected every man to dr) his duty. The Hem .Member *peke at some length, hat hit tVol.a totally inaudible in. the Gallery, from the coughing and other interruptions With whiel; lie was received. . CIVIL I.IST. The CIIA.IsiCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then moved that the House do reitotie itself int() a Committee of the whole Flow urns the Civil List, The, Sate Kea lieving left tile Char, ' . Sir lIIENItY PARNELL said Ito slioniti move en amendment to the vote. If over Minister of the Crown laid before that Ilium a statement fur a grant of won y that required an examination by a %sleet Cknronittee, it • - wee the propteial noW male by the Right Hon. Gentleman with reference to the Civil list. Ile (Sir H. Partied) hail pail all the attention in his power t o th e ;spee d, end %statement of the Right Hon. Oentletroin, and lit' wits tit telly unable to comprehend them'. Since the Right Hon. Gentleman's moth*, lie had studied Ind attatemeot with t h e maned care, both. mute out in conjunct's* tvith several lion. Member* of that floutoi, who were e e ks i ootheep i ej „„ ell vides to be the most competent to waderutand abject. at slii• native ; and he had, moreover, read with the UtMOtt ealititol ilia pepere whielt lied been exhibited the, morn frog, loot he satiabl not, either front bis 4WD abilities or with ' . the esetetaliee a thow tif 'l4iv friends, understand the pro. .; . positions, of the Right Him: Gentleinan• (the Chenesillor Of the Exehisqner).---f ileer, 'Lew.) Ile doubted inuelt wile. thee any man lit England undesetnoil the Right Hon, Ihntlermatee atatementa ; and If the If. Horn Gentle , att n d e retieel them himeelf, vet y auto ter tree that he M u ~ e 4nl4 du it °illy be jiteatta which bad 'lint been imp rt(tl to that Home. The et ete inents were so defective—day were we utterly ineoilbl4,tent-.-,-*Lat no man in that tiorise /void form any notion whether the saYilli weto wait the Right [fop. Geo ttionito hail aided them ) or Ifthey were, that it War tentily imposeible to say in What or hot", 4,t,y were . - oliectuth-.4llintr. heite.) fie would CattiltletlCA I.Vitat tr: i ie flight 114 A. 4'.ietlttattla4 ` ts hisl44Cs.c end bite lieeffeeted that s 4 a Vit 4i one butaired lind orld thuineted pounds, which 1 4 , Pts ,l 4'o4sti tn Wet 1.19 * ,, Littl not tzottipteiteted, for no ststenteut of liqUio)l , that hit haft 1/1/41r Oittietfatil Si 0 matt)' .41volvol, (Inland, and unintelliginte.—(ltear, hear.)- , - 111•0 dlifienity wa* to &tinder where thesaving ),- 1 , end his twat diffieolty wita to o,4aceive Why the i4 L i t i tt n t"; ' t) ; f n th'' , 'ping aftta,p4l4c 4 taka. 'OW illiiht HAIL tiae titi i'k h n ad ottie.the subject ei)tripitni by siepar - eeitte t h e t . ,,•,i,i 1 " , i i,: l . ~,f Eaftl ititi aria 1 , ;,. , i4.1d.tit1. —WM, ntit Mitent sWitil ti:i., fte h a d ~fleeted it still wither complexity liy his divison ay e , siilijeets into clasuea. Ile (Kir ii.,,Tat 'telt) hail put own% together, mid buil tried them by ortogy ettlettlAtiktat, nor, t t., ...,....-. ”,,ti•d, /do: ik ...dinF,-,ti above 91,000/. ' Something had been stated about dedue, i tions with reference to fees, to the - twelvepenny deduc tions, and to other duties," such as the land tax, and by these statements it hal been contrived to give tin appear sof saviiii4s where cone existed. Tftiovas a delusion on the country land it was not a very wise delusion, as it Might have been anticipated that it wool& he foreeen and expo.ed. Next, with respect to the pensions; ;they were reductil only in form, By tithing of the twelve penny dolnctions, the revenue toss reduced :in a greater proportion then the saving effected by oily reductionswhich had been made in the pensions. If be was wrontt in this statement, Itutrtightlinui Cientletaturwatt• *lone : to Ito ieprottelied with error; for, as far, as his uceOunts could be unfferstood, they led to these infamies. li, hail beetr:u.maxim that'; when any disputed point could he reduced, to a question of figui es, all disputes or zap- ments would and, for figures Could not err. Ve &I li:rent, however, was it with Treasury or Exchequer rith mole, for 'of all subjects this was the most ;winkle ve of error, Confusion, and contradiction. Of the 8' 000/. fallen in as a saving upon the Duke of' Clarence's Unw ept*, it could not be said that it was any saving tii n the Civil List , T his.was Manifest, for ' that ,ulhiwan e had I never been charged upon, the Civil List mat, it had lways .been charged npon, and paid mit of, the' Consolidated ,Fitud. On this subject there could not by any possibility he an) mistake, end why, therefore,,,bad the:Bight Hon. 4ientle roan made this mis.statement. By putting to tlit, Civ List what he knew belonged to the Consolidat,d Enna, I had made a saving . upon the Civil List appeir nun 4 e th , it really was by 38,000/. When he saw such erdwa ; trodured ion an account upon points so palpable, Ilse I a right to suppose that there Were many ether errors of 1 1 ., had a description, in parts of the account that wee u complicated, and, Ile must add, unnecessarily comp iea h flow the pretended saving of 52,000/„ tinder the en " Ciiil Contingencies," lied been effected, lie (Si 1 I Varnell) cotiLl not understand. Another saving wap / under the brid of pensions itt Ireland. Ile was exitr doubtful of the fact, and it Might he altegetheit founded as the alleged saving of the Duke of Clit allowance. As to the reductions calculated upon i' ing in of pensions, it was extremely unlikely ti public would have any benefit a all under this hei Oen WS ilie full )itt the itl. lle couldliave no hesittition ie saying that the House oug. net to vale 970,000/. A year, upon the confidence of sets, statements as bad been laid before it by the Right Hgn.Gen, tleman opposite. He had no wish whatevei to makenny deletions from the Civil Li.t hut what were acknowledged to he proper ; nor had he any desire whatever to diminish a single charge which weed(' limit the comforte of the Monocle, or decrease the dignity of the Crown. 1 Gf the eight chums proposed by the Bight lion. Geotlemin, only three bore any relation to the persomel 'intere.4 of the Crown, These amounted to the annual sum of 460,0001., and even in this Were included many expellees not Xtreei ing the comforts of the Sovereign, and totally extrinsic to the dignity of his Cronin: But in this large sum were in eluded nanny expenses of a common charaeter, and of just :the same nature with others which were annually audited and voted by that Howie, and for which the annual autho rity of that House was very properly required. The pies thin that very strongly pressed upon his mind was, whether the representatives of England, Just returned to that House, with their promises to the people fresh upon their lips, would vote away such an immensely Urge sum of money ppm) iuen n tprehvnsible accounts, and without inquiry.-- (Cheers.) Could the repreeentatives of England pursue such conduct, warm us they must be with , their oft-repeated professions of economy and retrenchment' so' recently made to the people, end published throughout the World ? ( Heer.) He would go further, and say, that the examina tion by a Comenittee which lie proposed, if disag4ealile to Majestyte Ministers, was perfectly agreeable to the King liiineclf.--(Hear.) It was too much thnt party a million of money should be voted far 'the Civil List imenediately on the meeting of a new Parliament, and without any previous inquiry. With regard to the salaries of the llottschuld, be hail every disposition to Retake a liberal provision, and should not object to do all that Could be expected to uphold the dignity of the CroWn iu a becoming mnnner. Thin class of pensions he believed to be a matter of the utmost, impotence. Thenmount of pensions charged on the English Civil List was 74.000/. ; upon the Irish Civil List 40,0001., and on the Civil List for Seotleeeil 25,0001. Thus it was proposed to vote away 189,0001. permanently on account of pensions charged open the Civil List for the entire reign. This was a subject that deinanded the most *eruptible's inquiry. At the moment when the oonutrravai 'culled upon to sustain this mount of charge 'ln the Shape of pensions on the Civil List, we were already paying annually a emu of no less than 6,150,0001, on ac count of pensinies, inoluditsg ltif-pay. With this fixed charge upon the public, the Chancellor of:the, Exchequer Rimmed that 189,0001. should henhargahle on the Civil List for eeneions. Was this a matter to be lightly passed over? With regard to the class of Foreign Ministers, it appeared that the reduction in the Civil List amounted to 27,0001: ; but there was still a stun of 186,000/. tti he veld annually to Foreign Ministers from the Civil List. 'He thonglit there was room for further reductions under this heath At all events, he objected to voting away large stuns of peddle money without inquiry. With regard to the Civil List of Ireland, lie" complained- that there Was i n . such thing as a Parliamentary inreetigation of it.:-no inrloii y had liven mule on the subject before a Committee of the House. Under the head of Sealthetal 'a tem of 51,0001 wits included, which required, explana tion. 109,0001.• was granted as the Civil List, of Scot land, in lieu of hereditary revenues of the Croivin, given up in that countiy. But the Clown expended this sum, and the hereditary revenues also ; for out of the mealtime sum of 18-1,0001. her revenue, only 20,0001. had found its way into the Exchequer. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had attempted to justify the Civil List now proposed, by referring to the Civil List of 1820, and stating that Butt hell given satisfaction to the Parliament. It Wes with surprise he had heard the Right Hon. Gen tlemen'teevertiou on this point, for he was a Member of the House at the time, and well recollected how stre nuously the Civil List of 1820 haul been opposed. That Civil List was founded on the report of the Committee of 1815, which went upon the expenditure of the three moat eetravagant years that could be selected. Let the Right Hou. Gentleman recollect that 157 Members had divided itt a minority against the Civil List of 1820, which was 400,000/. or 500,0001. above the Civil List adopted in . 1790, on the accessioned George 111. The lino. Baronet `proeeetled to argue, thet:as prices had fallen since lieo, pb e ivil List should have been reduced at least 'lOO,OOO/. Ischia' its present amount. If the Civil List of .1820 had not' been a most Pttrevugunt one, we should never have gone through 'die late reign WilhOut a debt being created, so enormous was the expenditure of the.public money. AA to the'praCtiaa of keeping anaceount of tint expellees wore jtnnudittely connected the personal comfort and dig nity sal' the Monarclo—saa to mixing up these expenvetel w i t h paw items of nationel expeoditure, be ettth (41 disapproved of- ay. plan, and thought ihe Right Hon. Gentlemen'a reasoning in support of it incorrect. The Right Hon, Gentleman sod, " what advantage would re suit to the country if these matters were eeparatetl?" Now ' this was net the mode in which to meet the objection. As the present pcnetiee was objected to, it wale fur the Chan. eellor of the Exelie4ner, to slow the ndventage of keeping things eta (WAWA in theist- titanic mixed up together.-- (Hear.) The Right Hon, Gentiewn could offer no good moon for keeping them together ; his own nrecnice in see paeeting io twiny expenses from the Civil List we* itself s p , r oar than be should have curried the principle farther, and . confined the Civil bird exclusively to the expenditure Of the Sovereign.--( Hear.)) 411 that, the {Memento of tile gxcbequer could say in defelime,of the present mode alike.: eceding was, that itthad always been the pr, tiee he former Civil Lists. in his opinion this was ,ate tipunnput Against continuing cia i ieratt,tice , He took upon haneelf to say, that whenever a relta4Pnt of ilattfla was referred to, it ought to he - elonened and voided, eethee than fel :Wend, .for it was by such preetieee our t evettieo hp!) hen rendef4 no high, and our public debt SO anarniaaS, as they' both wt,44, Was not this: a pouf that these vac tioa were had ?—(fieo;, hear.) lie held, that it WOlll.l ire Eno small advantage that their , - should be no Mistunler. standing in the country as to this stun : 3 / 4 711441 Ilia Majesty Actually,rectiNsql for the support of the digre4 of the Crimp. eattree duo could exist no tuisunderstainlii.l, , in Pediment en 4,4- 1 0 1 4100; 144 would the Chaneeller of the Erxeheepsee 'eat.,thet ,the ttablto not to be equally informed - 1 of oh* be to leave tho country comparatistely it) ,6,0 119 tof iviotkir his Meleety received 1,000,0004 or 4,80,00/. '7! Resides, very thing that did not really oppeittnielo ti;st erupeno of site l6ieo dignity were separated from the Cl we should Wee eireny of the items now included in it, anti which were agreedto 04149 reign, fulmar hc ea, the House, where they . would be terlies,% . tc,trevi , ital. For instance; we could then .coneider ,froto ti me to I:,ee the expenditure et i' -per Foreign Ministers. Again, emits* the expenses referred to tev,i4e',:eptreteel in the nulncer sulf gestoll, it was utterly impuesiletethei. tke publie accounts elleuld be ;I opt after a proper system ;` for Vw e unida_ ,Pillimint* for (440 tivo,pwiroes out, of varioue 'ditie:treoe. funds, how trothd we expeiest let have our accounts tuanagda * in a plain awl 1nti41440 moue?. hear,) The - present Aysttnt of taking a little met 404 (end end a little out of another, not only led to greet ohscurity in 'the bit Ell7eounti, but tended it; modnce considerable ituorgen tAticol if, the publie expenditure , of dill', rent rtit ti 4 s —unseen to expluio tipa !Jule was 11) such thing existing as a clear and connected account of the public expenditure. of the country, and contrasted our prac tice in this respect, with that of France, where mann' s were regularly ‘poblished to the great advantage of the com munity ; such a mode of proceeding, idferded the most ef fectual cheek upon a wasteful expenditure The :Hoe. Baronet next proceeded to refer to the Duchy of Pmees ter, and quoted Burke, who, in spealcieg of the subject, observed that the Duchy was probably worth 4,0001. a year to the Crownin revenue, and ,49,0001. in influence. He was convinced that if the revenues of the Crown Duchies , (there were once five of them) %erre 'Auld, considerable benefit would be derived to .the public. But 'a Con:. mithat was the Limper body to investigate thin and °tbs!' tedejiets connected with the Civil List. •It might lie objected. that hitherto no Committee had been appointed to examine into the Civil List at the commencement of a new reign. If other Parliaments had voted away the public money without due investigation, that afforded no arg&" went for the conduct of the present Renee of Commons. —( Hear.) Besides, Parliament did examine into the present state of the Civil List by Committees open former occasions—the last in Mb.. Itt conclusion, he begged those who felt dispoSed to supPOrt the motion for the appoint ment of u Select Committee, with which he should con. elude—he begged them to believe; that hi the event of the appointment of a Committee, in his opinion every thing ought to be, and doubtless would be, done, to support the personal comfort and dignity of the most popular Monarch that had ever sat upon the threne of these realios.—(Hear.) If we went into a Committee, we should give the country a pledge of the sincerity of our wishes to diMinish' the pUhlic burdens, He entreated the Members of the House to consider this, and to reflect how much they owed to those who returned them, and how intimately the national tranquillity, and be might Add the security of the timarehe, were connected with the course which Patliatnent should take.—(Cheering.) The Hon. Baronet concluded by Moving an arriendment to the effect, that a Select Com mittee be appointed to take into eonsideration the esti mates, accounts, and statements presented by command of his Majesty with respect to the Civil List.—(Cheers.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, notwthstanding What bud fullers froM the Hon. Baronet, who had just sat' down, he still adhered to the opinion which he originally entertained when the subject of the Civil List was first submitted to the House, and which he then expressed, namely, that the proper • course was for Government to present to the House estimates of the pro posed expenditure and arrangement of the Civil List, rather than to delegate that dtity, Ind the responsibility which it involved, to a Select Committee. He adhered to that opinion, not merely fee ruse such had been the usual practiee het etofore, hilt beitause, even in reference to what the Hun. Gentleman considered schemes of economy, be was prepared to maintain that a Select Committee was nut calculated to efli ct any economical ()lied, which it was not perfectly competent to time House, looking at the etetementa and estimates laid before them, to effect.:--(Hear, hear.) The lion. Barimet had not very distinctly stated, to the House whether he wished the Committee, which he pro posed to appoint, to he vested with power to examine wit nesses and papers as to the several items of the accounts laid before it, or whether he desired to adhere to the prac tice previously adopted when Committees had been ap pointed with reference to debts incurred upon the Civil List, namely, that the accounts should be submitted to 'he Committee fur examination, but without power to gr to so extensive an investigation, or to call for papers ar persons. The Linn. Gentleman had not very distinctly stated which of these two courses he meant to suggest. Sir 11. PARNELL was understood to intimate that he proposed to appoint a Committee merely possessed of power to examine the accounts laid before it, but not to call for witnesses. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.- . -The Hon. Gentleman now stated that it was not his intention that the propooed Committee sheaf have power to exa mine persons with respect to the items and accounts laid before it, but merely that it should report its opinion Oh the Civil List. Then he asked the Hon. Baronet, not only in reference to the common sense of the matter, but in reference to opinions expressed by authorities which the floe. Member must revere, because he had long acted with the individuals who had expressed those opinions---he asked the lion. 'Martinet what additional means or fueilitieS he could devise to effect a public service by Kuehn Committee which he could not already avail himself of by an exemie nation of the documente how upon the table of the House —an eceinioation which it was perfectly competent to the Hon. Berimet, owl every Member of the House, to make? indeed, ha recollected that upon former occasions gentle own upon the other side of the House had said it would be much better to have papers anti accounts connected with the Civil List upon the table for the' satisfaction of the House, than to refer those documents to eCommittee, be fore which an CX811111146011 of witnesses phould be denied. He referred particularly to the sentiments expressed by the late Mr. Tierney en this subject, who, as the lion. Hero net would readily admit, was one of the most active, ine telligent, and acute Members 'of the House, in reference to all matters of thieleinuL Indeed, he (the Chaneellott of the Exchequer) thought he had come down provided: with an extract front Mr. Tierney's speech upon the sub ject, but be found he hiol omitted to do so ; however, he very o ell remembered that' Mr. Tierney raid, 44 lie would prefer leaving the . impels in' the hands of Membere to the appointment of a' Coluinittea without power to call for persons and documente.".....(Hear.) This was not merely an 'argument used in the course of debate with a view to a particular purpose. Mr. Tierney acted in con sonance with those sentiments, and' when appointed upon CoMmittee vested with such powers as were propme3 to be Conferred in the present inetance, he refused to act, and threw up his seat in it. Such then was the opinion en. tertained, expressed, and acted on by political friends of the Hon'. Baronet on the occasion of former disetteaiona of A terturifoltnilar to the present. The Hon. Gentleman did not act in conformity with those opinions when he brought forward his amendment---(Hear)--and he now put it to tire lion. Baronet's comfortr to say, supposing that instead of laying otimetee of the Civil List before the Houle al lie did,' he haul stood there' the' mover for a Committee such us the Hon. Gentleman proposed. Ile put it to the Home, whether, in such a case, he should nut have been told by Members'opposite that lie was acting in that way with u view ,to delude the House and the country, to cover a desire for an extravagant Civil List under the appoint ment of a poweilesa Committee, and to prevent instead of promoting inquiry ?_(clear. ) No doubt he should have been'inet with that argument, and with those reproaithes , if he haul coneeeted • to the appointment of a Committer without power to enter into an effective examination of 1 the subject, instead of ;submitting the details of the Civil List to the Hoare in such a manner that Members etould ' have opportunities of aulgesting redutitions and main. redone, as the Bill proceeded in its respective s t ages . Ile said, th n, he did net think it c o nsistent with Ms , duly us a Minister of the' Crown, nor, Weed, rive to a proper examination of the subject, to model to the Ilemanrable Baronet's modem—(lleer, hear.) But let us see whatit Was that the Hon. Gentleman prepared to delegate to "a Conunittep, without power to still for anti' examine persons, palsers, and records. Not content with delegating to a Committee due constituted to go. into the whole iuf the ereimatet of the Civil Litt, the Hon. Bs. ronet Wished it to code to a decision as to the best-mode of keeping the poblic account's. At least- the lion. Gen- Oremarksan's remar ks seemed to 'tend that wiry. Arid not only: would •the'thin. Barnett have the Committee to invistigster - the various branches of the Civil List, hut he wished it to go into other Metter*, end 81804 such to consider whether it might not be proper iii sell the hands belonging to the Duchy of Lancaster, and place the produce of the sale to credit of the 'public account. Was it possible that r Com iiiittep going into these extensive and difileult inquiries, yet Without power to institute a' euffotient (rumination, should ever effect army good? Was it conceivable that its debates arid discussions sheehi ever name .to any seatiefectoty met . or that they - would not.be so prolonged end &Leytd as to threw impeuliments'in the , e , ie ill teleg. !e, pilot be the levies of the Otiose to tl!` i .,,,,h tes w i t h a vier,: to the ioilitte storivenience ns • in retice n ce to the dignity of th e te le , w4 the lion. Gentleman's , arguments for a COMMittee were ma w ) , he e ed epee the 'statements made in the com i-tetirement of his veva. He told the lionise that he could (iil:!nver, on the permed of the paper' : laid:before 111 the prevent; the HiMee, wGre die 85;000L cempared with the preeedieg F.,;;Vil List, was to be feete,!, !Irving irr his hand, the 'paper', 'corroded-1g 43 an corott of "hap transfers least hem 'no.* made from the 0 1 4 i f t let as foeinerl;/ geapted to' his rate Muijesty' to other' ekelAir. Ilart nJt #10011044 ,1 intioireel Whether tidefees proposed weee'pet t he daunted from the saving of 85,001. If Et ;!,4 0; :1 Iltut to page of accounts and te,ti r uet ee of -the Ltieil Liirt;" w h a t, lie would find the whole imprint of the income of Meje• ty George pi,; . stated at ',VI ,6821, ; and duet, 11,44i,v,, , i ex' ole slurries' firini Whielo the , Civil 'List oud r ln'herttris...e redaction of items, by the s, o ny l ,n it rill:ewveletre not ravings, sruiss:eeeel to other In Enelatik n hllBl 'of 1.08,90/. was transferred i 'ln 'Tref:aid, 13i198t , the , deduction of eller& fraud the herolitary'reveiont Seotland was 104 W; m akin g : it total'frotrefitiricif the Civil see relieve d of 160,18.14. But, es already . ;nutted; there; dot - tuvitgli; huit °V" t .tut J,„„:6l ;ee l in' the th'eount tiso reailee w wrist #errfre'"`: or And p, 4 7 ,Aing'irake N 14 t e a d e w s .' . It upp,,teto that the whole onto ctijo?ed his p kllenti ;from . the Civil List, &es was 14521,68 a ; deducting from " thi, amount 166,184/, now transferred from the Civil Lite tlts lbalance .v 1,055,448/ , but the estimate" annum °Oho probable future ("large was 970,0001., leaving I diminution t.tf eitatge, after providing for the Queen, a den sassing upon the List Civil List of 85,4461. Let the llon. - pireinet go through the various classes of the Ciei List' as now proposed, and he would see the items 01 which - the saving was effected. In a Committee the Hon Gentleman would have nothing bot the papers now upon the table, without power of examining witnesses, ant' *timid the opportunity of Wiring any difficulties it the statements ekared up by his (the Chancellor ot the Exchequer's) explanations. Under such einum statictis, no etiditiOuttl information 7'coulii be afforeleit by the Committee for which the Honourable Menthe, asked. The next object to which the Hon. Baronet ap peared to refer, as constituting a growed for the aptioint. mint of a Committee; was an examination of the milers o! retaining the present amount of pensions charged open tle Civil List. But how could the Hon. Member obtainifuller information or better grounds for discussion in &Pn mittee than were already afforded by the papers before the douse; in addition to which, pension lists Were in preparation, and would shortly be laid on the table its pur suance of a motion of the Hon. Member for Middlesex. Thus the House would have in its own hands the nneaus of judging of the nature and amount of pensions tis fully ! as any Conunittee, which Committee would not possess the power of examining witnesses. As far as she ques. tion of economy was concerned, the Hon. Gentlemaq could gain nu advantage by the appointment of a ComMittee ; for that Object might as well be promoted by a tgoposi tiou for a seduction of pensions in the Committee upon the Bill. it. might content himself with leaving the question of pensions with this single observation, but as the lion. Gentletnan had expressed a decided opinion as to the enormous amount of the pensions at the disposal of the Crown, he would only ask the lion. Member to refer to antecedent periods, and observe how small a proportion the pension list now at the disposal of the Crown bore to that which formerly existed. When Mr. Burke proposed to limit the English pension list to 95,0001., it wits with a view to economy and a great reduction. Hut the amount of pensions upon the English Civil List was now estimated at a much lower sum (74,0001.) The Irish pension list was new only 40,0001. ; before the Union it amounted to 146,000/. The Scotch Pension List also stood antecedently at a considerably larger amount than at present. If the Hon Gentleman was disposed to com tnent on the amount of the pension list now left at the dis posal of the Crown, he must nut call it extravagant, as compared with the pension lists of former periods, but must at once admit how great was the reduction effected in that blanch of expenditure.--(Hear, hear.)—sliut the next reason why the Hon. Baronet was desirous of going into a Committee appeared to be, for the purpose of examining : into the salaries of foreign Moisten.: Why not examine the amount of those salaries at present, and at once enter into a discussion act to whether they dould be more or less reduced ? AU the details were before the Hon. Member. He could therefore go into the sUerits of the case. What advantage would the Hon. Baronet derive from examining the question of the salaries of the Am bacoadors in a room up attain, instead of investigating the subject in a room in his own residence, and then bringing the matter before the House ? The Hon. Member said, and said truly, that our expenditure on account of foreign Ministers was increased in 1820. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) admitted the fact, but was prePared to maintain that the circumstances of the titnee-ithe in creased number of Ministers—the augmentation made in the ellowunces of the Ambassadors of other States--the additional expense imposed on our foreign Ministers— all rendered an increased expenditure in this department necessary. But though the present amount of our foreign expenditure was greater than formerly, effurts hail been eystematically made to diminish it, and it had been re duced from time to time. These reductions were made by his Noble Friend at present at the head of the,Foreign, Office, ' and by his predecessor, Lord Dudley and the present estimate was less by'25,000/. a year than at any antecedent period. When the Hon. Baronet referred to the expense of the foreign embassies at a former, as com pared with the present period, he ought to have stated how considerably the number of our foreign Ministers lied been increased of late years. At the period referred to we had only 17 'Minnows at foreign Court., we had now 20, and all in stations so important that it was absolutely indispen sable that communications should be kept up with them in this way. In the new states of South America a great Aug, mutation of expense hail been necessarily incurred, hy, di plomatic mitisiutte, and yet, notwithstanding the increa.e in number, his. Noble Friend had been enabled to bring this branch of expenditure within the ultimate of 1816, for the maintenance of 17 foreign Ministers, the number then employed. We had, as already stated, 25 foreign Ministers at present. Thinking, therefore, that a refer ence of the Civil List to the Committee, which the lion. Barobet proposed, could givens no additional means of re dieting our expenditure; he opposed the *notion. , He "lop opposed it because he thought it proper fur Government to incur the responsibility, for htinging.ferward The Civil List, instead of shifting the burden upon a Committee. :Ile wished to say a few words in reply to the lion; Getttle% man's observations Upon Isis *perch on a former evening, when lie introduced the subject to the entice of the House., He denied the conclusion to which the Hon. Baronet bad conic with respect to the Civil Litt of .1815. The Hoe. Gentleman overturned his own plopoeitioin, for the appointment of a Committee, fur he said that in, lei I 5 -16 we fixed a Civil List on the largest tensible shale ; but was that Civil List _framed without the aid of a Com mittee previously appointed? By au want? Could the lion. Baronet not object with propriety to a Civil List constructed with the, assistance of a Committee? That was ineon%istent with his argument fur the appointment of a Contmittee et present. 'Yet if the lion. Baronet's opinion as to the excel ive amount of that Civil List were correct, we stood a better chance now of arriving at a fair conclusion without a Committee than with one,— (Ilear.)---The Hon. Baronet reented to tax him with alluding to the circumstance of there having beets :to debt upon the late Civil Lists, and the lion. Member, argued that the fact of no debt being incurred was a proof of extravagance in the Civil List, What did the !Hon. B. tenet consider , the. circumstance of inctirrisig clehte ta be? Was it a pitch of extravagance to rue into or or keep out of debt? .If a man kept within the limits of his income, was he extravagant, or was his income of necessity enormous? And if he ran into debt, was be the .contrary of extravagant, and was his income necessarily limited? If the Iluto Baronet, argued in this way, he confessed lie knew not with what process argument- alluded blu t° e t n o svi l. e y r theiibier...-.(Kilns, )1 1 — lo n ( . ll 4 a e r n ' t i le le t e n r s n ) personal expenditure of the Crovin If L icr i ooa s i t ic it r il e n !a 7 t .r i oo n ini g ittrti lc aeawli t icil li ceee(l it ei oi. ---owfWrisreahiltleto-nrel'igreeirntgc4ee' to a separation of that part ofi time Civil which belonged snore peculiarly to other the country; tool the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had stated norrea•on why lie should not depart from the usual practice in this case. lie should think that the practice that had; uniformly prevailed in the country in this respect, was one Wiliell it Would not he wise to de. part from even at .the present time when innovation was the fashion. But' the Hun. Gentleman's rule appeared to he, than all past practice' were uniformly and invariably had, and that we never amid he in ertor if we departe.l front theme lie could not eubmit to allow the soundness of thin, doctrine. if the lion. litronet lied ,laint. clown the regular course of practice which hid been ,heretefere etlopted.on such oveasione as the present, end called on the House to follow it, then he could understand the proceed ing ; hut he had acted in 4 manner directly contrary. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had before awed, in ex plicit terms, that balancing all the argument.' which could bebrought to hear an %hie question, it Was better to retain the Civil. List in its present eituatiou, and on its existing foundation, than torproceed in tt,e way which the-Hon., Baronet reeommettdc4L . TIM lion. Baronet stid, in the first place, that the expanse of the Civil List, under the existing aystein, gave to thu 10-tfispostal ahrotighout the country an epportonity of declaiming about hie Majesty's enortnotia igcomo, which they would enpuotto alpotinted to upwards of 1,000,000 f. a. year e -seao expOoditure that WO calculated, in the nand' of persenciginwent, of the fitet, to ercatti Ws ollection against the Itoyal authority, Now l ie could not agree with. the Hun. Baronet in his view of the subject. 11 individuals recurred to the clocamente end stetements which had been produced relative to the Civil List, thcy roust see sufficient to correct this mistaken idea. And he` mast repeat that the King did not' enjoy the cebole•of the provision lonic by parlianient,—it was n o t all merged To Me personal expenditure, but a very lar g e portion of it was appropriated tli other and very distinct l'aft°;e 4 ' 'Then Ile' etnitenileal, 'that if they Outfitted th e I , It a t av, ) 11 1 1t i , li : • :0 : 4 1i : 1 ,1 -) w i t tl. . ,t. o w, l4 O: t o l }if n l l e l i i ii f ti: e j ft w i t bß i c i s , l o l l l t e n e b r y t : ::p i. , : %7l, r ivi a .i te e a 4 :: r i l li e ,pc, t , n r l ih m °l p ts , . I : ) : thoi P9 v ‘e : e : ar , r ii r Yi t l y th)u . ne so l if : o t. t h r i. : o d e: P t e t yp fi r r: i i, io : /e i e i b l cit i Y t t l a a I ‘l.itt e :l l I l ic i a: ll : s: l ..... :! l : tl i ll ' ii a t . i e: l : to prevent.—f Laughter, anti-cries of '! Oh.'') Whet be Would be the feeling of those intlivichtele mho ohjeoted to ; the.geaut of 1,000,000/. partly for pritsni4e,aed 8414 fur \ pulttio piwpoteona-if they were told that .500,0004 a t yr,r . lie was io,et ee tly tionyineed that , it , would ,la ve- th I effect, the decided effect, of liringing the 111 4 11 ''' " 'obloituy......:(a. oh o i, l e . %.,, _. y .. . more 1111 P , . ? IV 1)1” , t Milli tint peoide eay when ' • 'l '4- titey were told %bathe Monarch had '500,0004 a-year for own private and personal gratification 2—( Hear, hear.) Nhet would they think when they heard that nu ttlif 4erviee was mixed up with this grant—hut that it we► wholly devoted to tl.e private and personal gratificat Oh his 111,0ty 7—((lear, bear, hum the Opposition.) Ile ,e,euld maintain that such a tour* was more likely in jute the monarchy, and teas more calculated to bri into obloquy and distrust than the existing system. the lion. Baronet had another reason for wishing \ dude the Foreign Ministers front the Civil List., wished that 'tile liothe should have annually an opport of declaring whether a Minister should be sent to one Poore mrrountry, or toantother, If such wure_to he the re sult of the lion. B ironet's proposition , he hesitated not say, that he looked on it, not as an advantage, but as a great in jury to the real power of ~the country,_ and to its _ political greatness. It was not for that House to say whethet polls, tical relations shoull be kept up with one Poier or another. The Constitution has wisely placed that uthis rity in the hands of the Crown. lie would not detain the House with any further observations ; hut, convinced as he was, that no other System was so proper as that which had been propoeed by Ministers, he shosold meet the motion of the Hon. Baronet with his most decided negativei Mr. BIOMES said, that Ministers having laid before the House, eiewini customary on former , occasions, an esti mate of what appearedqo them to he necessary forth! Civil List, he could see no reason why the documents connected with the subject should not lie submitted to a &lel Com mittee.—(Hear, bear.) That certainly was th most commodious way in which the House could become ac quainted with all the details of the question...4year.) lte was not aware of the use or benefit of that sort Of mys tery which was attempted to be thrown over this impor tant subject.-41Iear, hear.) How, be asked, could it be advantageous to the Crown, or satisfactory to the coun try ?--(Hear, Lear.) In 'his opinion this subject ought to be clearly brought within the sphere of the intelligence of that House.-. 48 indeed every thing conneeted With the finance of the country ought to be.—.(Hear, hear.)i It wag the more necessary that this subject should underia Wirt Ligation in 3 Committee, because, according to tin; show ing of the Right lion. Gentleman ' himself, there was a new claaiification of the Civil List, with reference to cer- taro poi is t ts.— points.--(lisle Civil l lel L.t ar i he: ve r. t ) e to b They taken away, and that y mere toldthet sotue j iat certain new arrangements were to be made. If that were so, where could those alterations be so well considered as in a Committee ?—fileer, hear.) There could not possibly be a subject more fit to be investigated and determined by gentlemen up stairs.-.-(Hear.) Thepoint which the Righ . t, Hun. Gentleman had noticed bud reference to foreign 31i filters.' liekeew that that subject had been formerly debated. and be confessed tl,fit'he bad not, as yet, formed a decided opinion, whether the expense of foreign Mimi.. teas should continue to be charged on the Civil List, or whether it should be differently provided for. He was anxious that the inconvenience which resulted from the running in debt of the Crown, with inference to this and other charges, should be completely avoided. In touching on this point, be must be allowed to observe, that no one had argued, in the courts of the debate, that that House should assume the right of declaring with what power this country 'bout& or should not, keep up amicable relations. He would ask whether the explanation given on the sub ject of the Civil List by Ministers was so perfectly clear that Parliament ought to be satisfied with it ?—(Hear, hear.) lie did not think 4)0'4 was, and he was quite sure that a great deal of useful information might be derived hoiden inquiry in a Committee...-( He sr, hear.) When the proposition for a Committee was opposed, lie called on Hun. Melaka to point out the inconvenience of it ; and, if they could not do that, he contended that they were not justified in supposing it.-(Hear, hear.) Mr. CALCRAFT was net aware that any Committee ' , on so occasion of this kind, when provision was about to he made to support the dignity sit the Crown, had ever been appointed to act as assessors. The Committee to which the lion. Baronet had particularly alluded was' ap pointed by that House in order' to give satisfaction to the country, by endeavouring to effect sonic relief of its bur dens. It wits under these cireumstances that the appoint ment of that Committee took place. Hut how slid they stand with respect to the Civil List? The amount of that Litt was settled in 1815, and, from 1820,-when his late :Majesty succeeded . to the throne, upto the prersint mo ment, that Civil List had been found 'efficient for its pur pose. No debt hid been incurred..-nu additional charge, bad taken place—and yet, when his Majesty's Ministers proposed, not au increase to the Civil List as it now stood but an absolute reslection, as his . Right Hon. Friend had 'thew'', of 85.0007;, and in addition to that, by certain transfers, it further diminution of 50,0007., making • total of 195,0007., they were called on to submit thewhole question to a Coinmittee. In making this statement; be of course did not touch upon the cessation of the allowance to the Duke of Clarence, because be could not' consider it is arising out of any economical arraugernent.— (Laughter.) He stood there to speak his 'opinion freely, mill Le was astonished that any man, conversant with figures, could state the ease otherwise than he had done. The silowance of the Deice of Clarence war a saving , but is eert einly slid not arise out:of any economical arrange ment. They bad now, `for the that time; to deal with a CivirList, which, during an experience of sixteen years, had not run in debt ; and, even on that list, his Right lion. Friend !wallow! to make" a reduction of 135,0001. Hut the Hon. Baronet, netwithetauding this, said, " We ought to submit the subject to a Committee." He di I not wish the Committee to consider those plots which had reference to . the personal splendour of the Crown, but lie wanted them to apply themselves to other *Ms and articles which were included in the Civil I:jut. Now, whether it would or would not , be better to divide those items froM the others, end to 'leave them to be unusually voted by . Parliament--wlietlier it would or would not be betuer to einifisie ourselves to voting that which Was neces sary to the 'splendour of the Crown for lifie.this, he con lessee& was a point on which he' had not entirely made up his mind, as his Right Eon. Colleague had du:le.—(lieer. and laughter.) . Ile stated What he thought and felt, al it was his duty to do ; and if he spoke more explicitly than others, such cenduct, he was sure, would not be met with diewprohation.—(llear, bear.) The Hon. Baronet ad mitted diet the worst thing that . ..could be dude was , to 'grant the Crown so little as to render it liable to be in volved in dido, and thin to compel it to apply to Parlia ment for further provisi on ; a nd y e t th e Him. Baronet was got content to take the Civil List, Which had an slavered shit ieg A trial of sixteen years, on which a consi derable saving was Prepoeefl, but lie called also lir :yenta mittee. tie saw no necessiity fur such a Connthittee, and be ebould Vote against it: lie did not think, the splen dour and dignity of the Crown bring provided tor, that a reduction in the other iiems ought to be made bye . Com mittee upstairs in preference to its being theuct of the House itself Iteductione might be made, in the coin seof examinations in that plume, and it ought to be recoiled:Aid that this measure must go through a great inonber of stages before it ,was perfected. Lord ALT 11011 1) observed, that when the We t lion. Gentleman alluded to the fact of Mr. TierneVe having refused, oe one occasion, to serve on a Coss:lnittee, because it IVO not enipowered to examine persons, papers, sod re cords, it slid not, in his miutl, bear strongly against the argument of his lion, Friend. Ile slid not mean to urge it pervenally ageiest his Right lion. Friend, who had just ;pet down, that lii 1815 he supported the proposition Which was, then tubule, and to which the Chancellor Of the'llSx chequer had alluded, but he whited to observe, Plat it the commencement of a new reign, in 1820, his Bight Hon. Friend, who was. one of 157 who voted fur the extensive motion of Lord John Burnell, the object. of which was to ,refer the Civil List estimates to a Committee,: that they might be properly examinO,' though he opposed such a :course now. lie (Lord Althorp) and his lino. Friends now demanded a Ceininittee; beezture they were; of opinion that they ought to compare the items of the Resent scale with those which bed formerly been submitte4 to Parlia nient. The 'Bight lion. Gentleman told them, that the proposes] reduction was to he found in page 25 of the papery. He (Lord.Altlierp) knew that; butsey could only see it there in the lump, and not in partic u lars, as be lilliga it.-:..(Hear, hear.)—li they agreed to the reduce 1 , 800 witliset enleripg into particulars, they ere likely to full into considerable •error. tt was iquite nu poeeilile for them. without a more sletejles! eretnin 4 - thin than they could have. In that HoUse e l to arrive a c o s t i i i t t t l e a d e a c b o o t a n d e e c i u e t s o r s 4 v n t t e l o t , ii:a l t e s i e e s o t a t f il o o . f e l - p e ir O r l o n: 1 1 1 U , : : w as ;s i s ) n a ,ve. said , ut tle s i:' (list they records. C o hn s ie Such a permiesion would, lie knew, ba a vet y great in crease of power ; but, could no informatiou' he afforded, if that power wererefused ? He admitted that 1,11 great de gree of delicacy ought to be observed with respect to cer , tain livaali of the Civil faist.---(ifeeru beel'.) . ---Pfor til "t"' e Pa i l: i t rt- fe , lt an tlet:ire* to examine 1 , 1441; iii ? lie wishednot to have.atieli a pit "c thesis ; on the .yel.. 1 , But' with reao'ectlo inar i e,oll;er Bettie, *in wh:01 nu such feelingssi . e t delicacy etleched, lie conceived that tritich palpable in formation m i g es b e e li c ited, atul therelore he *mild imp port the motion of his lion. Friend.--(llene' , hear.),_- There were many paints, in the other Baena, that ref-mired .cleer , ex platietio n --(Hear, hear)—an certainly it was proper that the Ilisti-e *should 'have Bs means to reeesonplithing that obiert.—(liear, hear.)—flie was of 4 ,0,i a1l thief skate item; ..1,,,441 underga a thefeagli exa mination, which wouldrewls4 the titehjeet mow kite mei tangible thee the speech of the Bight quit. jetitlentais, oc a paws diet hail been bad on' the tablet fa dif ri t h te a th n i a t i i t ag a tb w :f :hb::::tiiiinparopoet:hfuer tßigilitiiii3Oe,i..thciii itToati4.)euir.iteniraciutleies4niuillistiatthhitiytlf.yexcipoicitd,:airsse,indaiieldi+reiiitite:aittpogrith. ) I .....p, l io l i t iiT ) in t e, ot i r;o ti :i i ii, n ,lll:: %i i lot h : l it. t omi6 ti roton : mvi, t rol l ,ti, l 6, e ti t u. i c u l i i tiu i t u i . o m n , tif expem-e. to tbiliniouut tif 85,0001.tess snide. 40,000/. a , y v e it a h r o f: t r e tl ui e ter w il l i t g ole in o u f , h t i h s e ill; e j t e s s i t i y: e in ie u i ni g e : 6 4l 3 l. , i'' Is nothing ►• they might see in what manner that money' wo to he 7ta-::. '•••--(Hear, hear.)—The Riglit lien; Gialleneo kind, gentlemen interfered with the Co4 4 ' lllo ' l ah;ulPat h i i t teli t appease i la t t Y. b oi c . u t lt lni e i 13t gg M ) l in : i lw a l Ministers o r a t la:tid:nit:liveil:C"filirwu:ne:::le;4l:l7: "teufe w ish ° I to Jo that. Rut he creild not help feling'the it a was not right for Aliuisters merely to make a etatereet-. ;tither that not a clear one—and then at once, et-. ;tither consideration, to make such a preposition es Olio to the non".---(flear,:hear.)—lle thought that the country would bare a very great and just right to cone with te o aii s i l t u l . e t h h C t e l e ri precisely'en gt*vi. Odin, after the pledges ou the subject of erononti sod retrendnnent which runny Illanbers of that floor 100 l given to their constituents, if they voted tle!; chit at without rtoPer exaneination and ineptiry.—( :rear; he'' ) For these reaming he should vote fur the unitioei hit Hon. ' Friend. Ws lion. Friend could Om poisilly Weil to go into . a general a nd ininiste4erititof the lionseholl itiltilyiLßeittsuivot.ttuirisaloh.elyneiteiirtcoili.ei vvt:,;il:llatri'ildliulitliie:li•w an,:Fosrlisiie,in:idaio:l:l,ti,Yl,',l,ll,iinEitt , , there were many items which ttiqlit not to he pail ree up aPP:eitintstintehnatt Committ ee°afsespi.tration .to misrermentation. Ile was of, epiniori that it would order that the public might he cor rectly informed on 7, 1 1 sul ° et at • • ••' 1 List should be e ff ected. Air. WYNN alid,,it., bed been contended, that, o n fur. oitr occasions, no suplq Cie:emitter at thseems oiled w" appointed . Nun, allowing that ergeineulio tell l'' full course he should only say, in anitiver to ir,,ts it trti ne reason, because : recedor, Reuses. of l'arlimerailiade gicc tete - duty , that 'Oisite:,,,therefore, 111044 "ee l ' s itibleiro•—(lleer, hear.)-.-Ilitt'i ey were told that OI L : ittee was appointed at the accessiou 0( 90.. v 'use Why, he asked, was that fledeese,niii st .u" : t voted for the total amount of ,the Vijl- 164 :P'" ne 11 l fluent was laid before PerlietOen •• The e,l4;eneuti new principle.was that time, was perfectly ignorant as to whit pert of 11 , ie grant was applied to the pereonal splendour of the 1.1) - nave wi e., 11-- aris part to the salary of crMsts-.o what part to defray the • eipense of Public 140011111/11 at home,—(Heer, hear.)......At dist perital it we? a u ' The .t it (i'Qiii the Coil custom for Parliament to inquire into the "ultl egt* p , e , first instance of inquiry was that introduce! by Air. ' , , when b e divid e d the Civil List into different drool. ~,i ,', f One ridge i t arigh t give tie then eetablished ; and from that period only, were they to Mite the e il the nation of the Civil List. At the oeutnearegl, 6,,,,,, last reign, a proposition fur the appointment .01 1. 0 lore, mittee to inquire into the Civil List p e eswa' lleg „ st t es ry o' however, his Majesty Geo. 111. dietl, 0 wr' place the erteblishinent at Windsor on a WY into]. With that view a Committee up stair* ices aPP 4 II , h i e lie (Mr. Wynn) served on that ChatCuuttuitto..n' 0,0,,,, Ilon. Friend the Alciuber fur Duraatititt. ' rod r e. mittee had not power to semi f•repapsee Per',, e ':,'_.' 0 ,1 it cords; but Lord Csatlereh was a toeMber o f °The Its was but doing justiste to p his Noble. Friend ,to lay, ,,d orri gave every iuformation in his power, Ile 431 ' if member of that . Conunittee to couie down or t he to and to use the iufurrnation which be lied riceiveyerue ee ., I Committee as s ground for requiring more if it ''o„ t he I and how that pii;rsimai. 1 1'46911"Y. That Committee examined Mast On u n ; Windsor estsblishuient, and they made it report 0 0. en i ' the. house acted. The estimate for inii,,fite no w several points, curtailed by thatCisliniiiitee`_,• ~„ le i te, 4 ' of riperrie s was reduced, 411 tieing Willertl44.l,/ r'. rime motion W 44 efterwards by a gellsot ullire "10,01ie ~ the number, but ;he p e r u se adhered to ,the til'' ti fjefe ~, Lion of the Committee. Ile lid that 4 f' t/ t ili t t e i na l ' ca cy made it unpleasant to 1101111 C gentiOtge I ,'; 0 su ch to go into such an iuquiry ; hut, iii hilt 00 01 ' circumstances existed at preseph . e . . i wi tioa? Mr. Ii VARIES ruse *midst lour! tries of ' ( _ ar o He could assure Gentlemen that he did not gri n " o a of, them lung'. ' '. Ills 'Right thee Friend ( (th e , .:100"c"ii, 0 , , the Exchequer) had placed, oft so utter a, gr 10°,,, 04_ reasons which ought to induce tber lbws* lo *ll e o lh. cutirse whisk he recommended oe Olio occ/itii;reeireet so fully septet:W*o Pr°l"6o,"'"O'rur,4ol", Jok,),to 1 and conclusive err tilt tii---("io''' ' , kpi th '. it was q uite' stogy for hire to enter at any ti. . v i, ' t I been .o ably as nt / a re petiteoo of that wlitea .at i lit ti or • he lion. Baronet trid tele O, Right lion. Friend. 1 .. t lie had haulier,: !0 ' shot t way of enfereing bis 'PrePetvl").‘ ' • 0 1 gad to hint ii *PK° Jolt i rya principle pe.rfeetly mows a—,,,,_ ~.,.. ~r uz„ pl ittil .;'..: strings than it was move', sac it"":,7 00 ,,rd, in': , OW that alt precedents ought to be fitt_i!tv ft ... w enn "that they ought to blindly *voided. • TOl i s;:b r d, 1.1 1 , 1 . 1 ; said---" Decimate theft Pirtgotinatit are th.e o f will °,.• 'bun thent--10 us adopt some °diet 17.Tott, if til Parliamentary history affords no essipif-di a Nye intri Hon. Baronet carriet that doctrine turit : rc e were, i e duces' it when great constitutional prilie.t.,oh, ele)-I bated, it roust inevitably lend to revolutiotito _i d , 0 le lie, however, contended, that they were like 0 ,, plOr • precedents ; if they did nut, they we', e , ~,,0 , t o pp' 'into the deepest confusion. They ou gh t : 00 e iltt vt the saute course which had he ta t t ot tIN i l l l e ,; on all occasions when the 0410 i 1,01j$:, tiq List came inefer the tolloi l “,.," * eh ° r one " 1 : $ cot There wait a neer accession to die 0 ,,,,,.priit•'"'.0 1 1 si acknowledged coterie was tie.. mike 4 Pr_rite. LOA! , i, .., Lira, without the iotervention of I COOP; "gaiter''; isyni'' time of William 111., the renciaseed by n,ir.‘i voted without any previous ineunY °f ie o t eteit'q i , e l e Whet was the object to be pitied il t"' tic ili ffolitr ',, Unless a owe were wade outs Prot' vup d tar rol e ' : ft , derstentling the subject, there was ao iir,5„„14,4110.'.'.:04, this detailed examination. Ne Miso bail it' t', o l- 1 ,,, la 1, :!: ) 1) ,.... • to the accounts laid tan the table eould .:,,,,i e to I , ' master of them much better their 11 4 e 1;70"; i eo seeo i -,.. time lahoure of a Committee. The l'a,"o:.,oerlyi o it l • Ci List now proposed and that w . lii __ d he ~! o tit , war d s clear as figures could tusks It L 714 opientrieet t, sorry if a Committee of that 11°1°,,:ch. * ere o r ,:,, investigate and examine 4a0ii414. tt ..,..,,„.,$ ,43 , 1 : f'o plain. There was, on the COO of t1,1s0111,:; C 1 ! ..) ,, 185,000/. a year, and tio exaMinso° 'f.1,4,, i Idsor,,r'oe would render that fact wore clear or tilae'ret,tool or 00 1 lied been Made to this 11411 in f in 1'im:)...11,, the _ d o Civil List had been kept ins nother_ i t pu,l'el; 001rtti;ter not say that some improvemeot toigb 0 . 0 , 04; ::, mu& of keeping the secounts, hut be e ;1;0'4 ~,,1,0 men of the counts y alluded to h iel i : e e an , le'ipeiee tio comas not having been kept a' " . , e 1 ;1 0 1' troe'" mo yi ' here. In one thing tho Hoge Itlei,s' oar ef ec e° ,,, $$ there wits a striking t hiferen ee i ° 1 v n etrl' * 0 11 ;0 01 respected this eountry. 10 ilia' •W Of fit* j s t esr" colle c t • 57,000,0001. was collected a t on „, ose ou °l"' the tie while in this a revenue of b 9,. , 0 1 0 i to , 0 c o t expense of only 3,700,0001. ll ° , Ibis- Ai "7 w hy 1 before the Rouse, .he Mutt say 1101 I gran" „I, tr g ° Orli I " i other side had failed to Wig' , 4fl h e dello cCA' precedents of former reign* elooldhi he * pror r „„ the Crown applied for aid, a irs isen.,, net la td's 4 fur the aPpointment of a L'AttO:Zieiit infert,otoe, i ~ fore the House, he thought that i,e l ; pro ceed O i l , oe tioi the given on rel the items la clod , 11 ,3 0 cpe quiry, and on these grimed, he " , / Alll O l . fur the Commitier. t o re i s h he N et° edt" " It Mr. It. MINER said that 1 1 g ites i' no IJ stated tl at most of the Mothers ho e. hm i g irt eee to const:tueats to vote for ecoootny. I" thug reite g o on but he felt liiietelf bound so Moeh °I t a u s end t ile , r erli, pledgee to do his duty by his constitneat,ra 0 p i the , , He owned lie was grievous 'y diaaPP°,;oo,ellor eiold the Right lion. Gentleman (th e would be' i u, Qn -, chequer.) Ile badiaid that there 0 otio i . or 40, 83,0001., but when -they added th e ,,. 5 ',,1,i4 tbe;l44le, the thing was not fairly *Wel, for:, *,,iiitocet of , l' whit wes allowed to ;he ice 9.' vow P, only a difi'erence of 1.2,0 Mt, whlc b ' 1 0 4 O f t ier i was the whole amotitit d the savinoge et. ,l, od. less than the country lied a right t esP:l4,o,e i, , eiriumstances, he Would nut only 10,11)., ~, $0 ,1 ; - 0 , for the Committee, but if be had Ina.Toonrti,:e ,e i sOtoi, pupils, and 'worth, lie would _sto p, l i ft,eite P ell , f on the Gist three items of tbe Civil I. : l p i r . .., itut 0 0, 14 0 ari. i. i • ...• to' 0 except out of delicacy to the SoY-J- 0, tr ~,,I parts of the expenditure lid, itrotilti Stlr io iji 1 . 1 ) , Vt illiiry. Ile fully c oncurs ett ist.ivbn ,: o ij e O O ' accounts not properly belonging to lt, s ." . erne. '• on the Civil Litt. • ti sileit gOi • The Itotekthen iii!Adetl, vr)i. r ! tier °. ~,„ For fAe driyAiiq iiiotioN....."::;;;ii„,, 6s 1 For dm Amendment, for n Li' , „,,, ..,, ~ ~, i of Inquiry ..... . ............. , i. 1 40ST 1 9 . 1 1 MAJORITY A fi- .. . ~,,, pi i i „: WINS 10-0..„..0*"" o f VA. t -tb011"-- ,atlicii The amendment was thee plain ~_, . , (41 7 1514't 111 4 '4l. 31' . ,is motion, and agreed to. The ~ _ „_,,A ed e • was reeeiveil with lona vittfrojii .17,:wore ;501' BerJre #tringeri 'were oti-lidtoiliv7i7t, 11,41. mr:liontiOtisE atiod the 1111 i , ig it But ex ile "lily