The Sun. — London, England, 1830-05-22 00:00:00

. tionlar cue it could be of no importance to have the opi nions of the Law Officers of the Crown, and he hoped that a precedent for the production and discussion in the House of,Consmons of such opinions might not be esta• blished by agreeing to the present motion. He could easily conceive a ease in which an Attorney-General might not like to have his opinion* discussed in Parliament, though this was not such a case. Whatever the Hon. Member meant to do, he could accomplish as well upon the infor. mation already before him, without calling for these docu ments. He had delivered his opinion on the subject with great sincerity, and he believed it would be found that a'l the twelve Judges in Westminster-hall, if the questicn were put to them, would concur in opinion with the written document of his predecessor. Mr. BARING asked the Attorney-General whether the law went to such an extent that the Crown could import merchandise for sale free of duty? The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said it might he diffi • cult to answer the question in the abstract. The Hon. Member must put a case. It was undoubtedly true that, in the time of the Henries, when our Monarchs had pos sessiens and revenues abroad, wines were imported by the Crown free of duty, which might have been, and probably were for sale. After an observation from Mr. BERNAL, the purport of which we could not clearly collect, Mr. BRIGHT could not but imagine that there was some ulterior view in the alteration made by Ministers. Whether it was to get a larger sum out of the Four and a Half per Cent. fund—the fund was burdened with a debt—whether there were pensions of which Parliament knew nothing charged upon it,—he could not tell, but he confessed the change did appear to him very suspicious. What induced the Chancellor of the Exchequer to take the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown on the subject—•what was the Right Hon. Gentleman's object in mooting an ancient point of law which bad lain hid for a space of 170 years ? Certain charges were to be paid out of the proceeds of the Four and a Half per Cents., but salaries falling in, and the fund being augmented by exempting the sugars from duty, the amount would become so large as to exceed the demands upon it for the support of the church in the West Indies. In 1808 the,gro's proceeds of the Four and a Half per Cent. duties amounted to 35,0001., the net proceeds to 16,0001. (this was under the old law, and the deduction was partly o❑ account of duties, in part on account of other charges.) In 1809, the gross proceeds were 112,0001., the net amount 48,000/. Thus in one year the Crown might have had the distribution of 35,000/., and in the very next of 112,0001. under the present system. One year the fund (which appeared liable to great variation) might be merely sufficient to support the ecclesiastical establishments, and to defray the other charges upon it, yet afford in the next year a great surplus for salaries, pensions, or whatever other uses the Crown should choose to apply it to. He trusted that the Hon. Member for Aberdeen would not let the matter drop, bat persist in probing it to the bottom. Sir C. WETHERELL said that if Government should consent to the production of the opinions of the Law Of ficers of the Crown in this case, he should state his con viction as a lawyer, that no Attorney or Solicitor-General ought ever again to give an opinion in writing upon any case submitted to them by the Crown. He utterly dis sented from the proposition that the House of Commons had a right to see the private and confidential advice of the Law Officers of the Crown. With respect to the ques tion of the liability of Crown property to taxation, there was no lawyer who would not at once admit that it was altogether exempt : that these sugars shouli come in free of duty was undoubted. _ _ Sir R. PEEL concurred with the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Sir C. Wetherell) that it was not expedient in the present case for the House to call for the opinion which the Learned Gentleman, when Attorney-General, had delivered upon this subject. However, he did not agree with the Learned Gentleman in thinking that in no case should Parliament call for the production of opinions given by Law Off.cers of the Crown. If there •was a suspicion that they had acted under undue influence, an imputation against them of straining a point in favour of the Crown, the Law Officers would be justly liable to have their opinions called for, and their official acts in vtetigated. Nothing could be more convenient for Go vernment than to lay the opinion of its legal advisers be fore Parliament, and shelter itself under their sanction and authority ; but such a proceeding might be fairly objected to by Hon. Members opposite, on the ground that it in volved an attempt to overhear the exercise of the free judgment and opinion of the House. Would the House allow the opinions of the Attorney and Solicitor-General to guide it ? Certainly net. He knew that in the case of a discussion on the Alien Act, a legal opinion of one of the Crown Lawyers was inadvertently produced by a Member of the Government, in order to show that we possessed the power of banishing aliens ; and the produc tion of this opinion being objected to, it was admitted that it was wrong to quote it under the idea of controulling the House. It was fit that the Government should be the party to be held responsible, and that it should not be permitted to rely on the opinions of its Law Officers as a sanction to acts for which it was itself accountable. It was a matter of indifference whether the opinion were produced in the present case or not, as far as the practical result was concerned ; but upon principle the House rather than the Government ought to resist its production. Sir J. NEWPORT thought that when the Hon. and Learned Member (Sir C. Wetherell) told them he should think it a degradation to give, as Attorney-General, an opinion which was to be subjected to the inspection of that House, the Hon. and Learned Member showed that be was totally unfit to bold the situation which he had for merly filled. And so much for that—(Hear, from Sir C. Wetherell )—Yes, so much for that; and he said so beciuse he did not like to repeat the same thing over and over again, which was the custom of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman.—(Hear, and laughter,)—On every constitutional ground he contended that these opinions ought to be produced. If the law was, as it had been stated to be, the Legislature ought immediately to amend it. Sir C. WETHERELL, in explanation, called on the Hesse to bear witness that he had never said that the Law Officers ought not to be responsible to that House. The servility of which he had spoken was servility to the Minister, not to the Parliament. All he had said was, that if there lilt been any thing wrong, the Government ought not to cast blame on the Law Officers. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL had understood the Hon. and Learned Gentleman to have spoken exactly as he had stated he had. The Hon. Baronet must, there fore, he thought, have misunderstood the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. He was not responsible for the opinion in question, but allow him to say that no lawyer could have given any other opinion. He thought the practice of producing the opinions of the Law Officers, which were given only as a guide to the Government, would be highly objectionable. Lord ALTHORP must confess that he had understood the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Sir C. Wetherell) very differently. He had understood the Hon. and Learned Gentleman to say, that he should consider it a degradation if an opinion of his, given as Attorney-General, were canvassed in that Honse. With respect to the production of such opinion., he agreed that that might be sometimes attended with inconvenience, and that a special case ought to be made out to warrant the House in calling for the opinions of the Law Officers. In the present case he had heard no valid objection, and he could conceive none, against the production of the opinions ; and he should therefore vote for the amendment, especially after the doctrines that had been laid down that evening.—(Hear.) Sir C. WETHERELL regretted that he should have been misunderstood by so accurate a person as the Noble Lord, and was sorry to be called upon to explain a second time. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman then repeated his former explanation. Lord ALTHORP had not doubted, after the explana tieu before given by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, that he had misunderstood what had fallen from the Hon. and Learned Gentleman in his speech. He had only stated the fact that he had misunderstood him, because the Hon. and Learned Gentleman seemed to think it strange that the Hon. Baronet (Sir John Newport) had ►misunderstood him. Mr. R. GORDON entirely concurred in what had fallen from the Noble Lord (Althorp). The opinion of the Law Officers they knew pretty well ; what he wanted was, the case which bad been laid before the Law Officers. Sir R. PEEL was sure the House would do him the justice to recollect that he bad not said that the Law Officers or their opinions were beyond the reach and con troul of that House. As, for instance, where there was imputation either upon the Government or upon the Law Officers, the House would doubtless be justified in calling for those opinions. All that he contended for was, that the grounds must be shown for the production of such do cuments. He could not conceive what ground there was in the present case, where the law was admitted. He thought the Hon. Member who had just sat down had shown the weakness of his cause by saying, " It is the case I want ;not the opinion." Hr. b'CONNELL said that this was a case in which usage of 60 years' standing bad been departed from. If such a cue happened between man and man, a Court of Equity would compel the production of the opinion and of the s eam on which that opinion was given.—(" No, no," from S:r C. Wetherell, and a cry of " Order.")-- H e said " Yes." He maintained the point, and could cite authorities in support of it. He saw no reason why either the case or the opinion should be withheld in the present instance. Mr. MABERLY apprehended that this diversion of money had been mane in consequence of the funds for the payment of the pensions having diminished.:. He thought the opinion ought to be produced. Mr. HUME begged to know if he had the liberty of reply. The SPEAKER (as we understood) intimated that the Hon. Member had not.—(Cries of " Hear him" from the Treasury bench.) Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and a divi sion took place, when the numbers were— For the amendment 32 Against it 7B Majority against the amendment-46 On our return to the gallery we found Mr. HUME objecting to the Speaker leaving the chair. He said that the Ministers had, by this measure which they had taken upon the opinions of the Law Offieers, transferred 30,0001. a-year from the controul of that House, without the consent or the knowledge of the House. The House, therefore, ought not to vote one shilling for the public service until the circumstances of the case were made known, and until the Ministers con sented to produce the opinions of the Law Officers. This fund was described as the King's private property, and he therefore charged the Ministers with having taken 30,0001. a-year from the public, and with having put it into the pocket of the King. On these grounds he ob jected to any further supplies being voted. He did not exactly know what course he ought to take. He would, however, now move that the Committee of Supply be postponed to Monday next. The SPEAKER said that the forma of the House would not allow the Hon. Member to take that course. Mr. HUME said that, in that cue, he would meet the question before the House by a direct negative, and that he would renew his opposition on every vote of supply being proposed throughout the Session.—(Hear, and laughter.)—Yes; he would. He would not listen, as he had listened before, to such language as this—" You are impeding the public business without answering any good end." He thought the proceedings of Ministers in re fusing to produce the opinions of the Law Officers, had been most unconstitutional. The Ministers by this refusal bad treated both the House and the country with disre spect, and no further supplies should be granted with his consent. He would not divide the House on the question, as it had already expressed its opinion ; but, for the pre sent, he would content himself with giving the motion for going into the Committee a negative. The motion, that the Speaker do leave the Chair, was then put and agreed to, and the House went into the COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.—PENITENTIARY AT MILLBANK. Mr. G. R. DAWSON moved that a sum not exceed ing 21,1351. be granted to his Majesty for defraying the expense of the Penitentiary at Millbank. Mr. HUME said that the plan at first arranged with respect to the number of prisoners to be kept in the Pe nitentiary had been departed from, and that the expense at which the convicts were supported was much greater than ought to be incurred, considering the little practical good derived from it. He put it, therefore, to the Right Hon. Gentleman, whether this expense ought to be incurred, or whether it would not be better to g;ve up the establish ment altogether, and adopt the system of transporting all convicts on whom sentence of transportation was passed. He repeated, that he would have every person transported on whom that sentence was passed —more particularly the women, as, from the great disproportion between the nu merical amount of the sexes, they were more necessary in the colonies of New South Wales and Van Dieman's Land than men. He would therefore send every woman, old and young, who was sentenced to transportation, at once out to those colonies. The young, it was known, would be a useful addition ; and the old women became young when they got out. Referring to the convict system in this country, the Hon. Member contended, that it was objectionable in point of its effects on the convicts them selves, and also, through them, on society ; and likewise on the ground of expense. If a proper system were adopt ed, a saving might be made of 120,000/. or 130,000/. a year, which was now expended in supporting convicts. Mr. PEEL said, the Hon. Member had asked him whe thir he considered the advantages of the Penitentiary countervailed the expences. He would say, that if it were now proposed, for the first time, to expend 500,0001. for the erection of such an establishment, he would pause before he consented to it. But the question was, whe ther, having the building now, the whole should be aban doned? This establishment was conducted, not under the direction of the Secretary of State for the Home Depart ment, but by a Committee appointed by the Privy Council, who advised him as to its management, and which was composed of humane individuals, who gratuitously devoted a large share of their time and attention to this object. He had once thought that it might prolutb;y be better if the whole were under the direction of the Home Secre tary, but a Committee appointed to investigate the sub ject had come to a different conclusion. As a system of secondary punishment, the Right Hon. Gentleman de fended the convict system at home, and observed, that from a report made by the Navy Board, it appeared the labour of convicts was valued at 67,5701, exclusive of 9,5001., the amount of work done on their own account; but the whole charge of them did not exceed 70,500/. The value of convict-labour ut Bermuda was estimated still higher. He owned, however, that he was willing to go into inquiry on this subject. With respect to sending out female convicts, he admitted that it was desirable to send out a large proportion, but it would appear that opi nions were divi led on this subject. The Hon. Member would have every woman, o:d and young, who was sen tenced sent out ; whilst others who had given the sub ject much attention were opposed to sending any. In a pamphlet just published on this subject by Mr. Holford, this practice was referred to as " the monstrous principle avowed at the Home Office, of sending out females without reference to the means which existed of providing for them at home." The Hon. Member had contended for the policy of sending out all convicts, because a convict could, the moment he arrived in the colony, obtain the means of pro viding for himself, and of living at ease. This might be a good argument for an emigrant, but how it could ope rate as a mode of punishment he was at a loss to know. Ile might take this opportunity to mention, that measures Were already in contemplation, which would have the effect of making the punishment of transportation more severe. The fear of that punishment was very different in different countries. In Ireland, for example, it was particularly dreaded, while the inhabitants of large towns generally for the most part viewed the subject with less anxious feelings, partly influenced, no doubt, by a love of change, and partly by the frequent favourable accounts of the pros perity of the settlement. The Hon. Gentleman should remember the probable difficulty of finding labour for 200 or 300 convicts in a new settlement, together with the great expense of a sufficient military guard. In fact, the expenditure he must soon see would be enormous, if he took into calculation the cost of building a place of con finement—the salaries of surgeon and chaplain, and all the other numerous charges incidental to such an establish ment. In the settlement at Bermuda, punishment and labour were successfully combined, to a degree which had never been effected elsewhere. Employment was there found for 1400 of the strongest and most active prisoners ; but in Canada, and the other settlements, the principle of applying convict labour had comparatively failed. Various opinions, he was aware, existed on the subject of the ma nagement of the hulks, but be was decidedly of opinion, that they deserved encouragement on the ground of eco nomy. He, however, felt rather a wish that an inquiry might be instituted into their expediency as compared with the system of banishment to New South Wales, but not from any desire to relieve himself of &share of his official responsibility. Colonel DAVIES wished to have an inquiry appointed with a view to a reform in secondary punishments gene rally, as he felt a perfect conviction that the ordinary dis cipline of our gaols, and the entire system, as now con ducted, served only as an inducement to the perpetration of crime. It was notorious that the convicts on board the hulks were in every respect much better off than the agri cultural labourers in Kent. Sir G. MURRAY defended the authorities of New South Wales from the charges insinuated by the Hon. Member for Montrose. ..—....„ Mr. MABERLY considered hulks as possessing many advantages over the Penitentiary, on account of the extra vagant cost of the latter. He wished to see the establish ment taken out of the hands of Commissioners, and placed under the department of the Secretary of State. A large reduction ought to be effected in the establishment,—the pay of the Governor in particular was too much, amount ing as it did to 600/. a-year besides perquisites, which might be estimated at 2001. a-year more. Sir R. PEEL reminded the Hon. Member that the officer in question was obliged to live the life of a convict, spending night and day within the walls of the establish ment. Under such circumstances he was sure the House would not consider this salary more than an adequate compensation for the disagreeable duties which were im posed by such an office.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. W. HORTON thought the subject of secondary punishments one of considerable importance, and proposed to bring it regularly under the consideration of the House before the end of the present Session. Mr• ROSS observed, that material reductions had been already made, and that many more were in progress. The estimate of the current year was less by 1,6001. than that of last year. Mr. HUME animadverted on the amount of the secre tary's salary (4001. a year), which he deemed extrava gant, looking to the trifling duties he was required to discharge. Sir T. FREEMANTLE defended the management of the Penitentiary, which he maintained was an establish ment that materially conduced to the moral interests of society. Sir T. BARING pronounced the charge to be extrava gant, compared with the known expence of maintaining prisoners in county gaols. The resolution was then agreed to ; after which the House resumed, the report was brought up, and ordered to be taken into further consideration on_ Monday next. SALE OF BEER BILL. The House then resolved itself into a Committee on the Sale of Beer Bill, on which Mr. MONCK rose for the purpose of moving the inser tion of the clause of which he had given notice for this day. The Bill in its present state, he contended, was in principle contrary to the common law of the country, which pronounced public-houses to be public nuisances. However desirable it might be to relax the restrictive system of licensing, the House should not too hastily change arrangements which had long been in existence, and of which the present state of public-houses testified the advantages. Hon. Members were bound, he thought, to take into consideration the interests of those whose property had been embarked in public-houses on the faith of the continuance of a system which had been in force 300 years. By a clause which he should propose, he conceived the principle of the measure—so far as the advantage of the public against monopoly was concerned—would be secured, while the consequences to public-houses of a hasty altera tion of the system under which they were established would be avoided. Within the last five years the mono poly of the brewers had been much relaxed by the per mission to sell beer on the premises on which it had been brewed. His clause would extend this relaxation still further, and would permit the brewer to sell his commodity in as many houses as he pleased. This was pretty nearly the usage in Scotland, to the adoption of which in this country he saw no objection. Should his clause receive the sanction of the Committee, he should propose another, to save the retail brewer of beer from the consequence to which he had just alluded. The Hon. Gentleman con cluded with proposing his clause, to the effect of per mitting the sale of beer on premises besides those on which it had been brewed. Sir T. GOOCH had been at first friendly to the prin ciple of the Bill then before the Committee ; but a more deliberate inquiry into its tendency convinced him that its effect would be neither more nor less than to convert England into one great ale-house.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)—He was not opposed to the application of free trade principles to the beer trade, provided it was sub-, jected to a proper and efficient controul.—(Laughter.)— He was therefore inclined to give the Hon. Member for Reading's clause, a couple of years' trial before he con sented to a great measure of change like the present. Mr. SLANEY thought that Ministers had pursued the most manly and beneficial course which the public weal recommended, by adopting the present measure.—(Hear.) —Within the last 40 years a great falling off in the con sumption of domestic malt had been experienced, owing to the great tax on that necessary of life, imposed under the present mischi.vous and unjust system, which pressed with so much peculiar cruelty on the poor. He said the poor, for what greater or more unjust tax could afflict them than that which compelled them to pay 1,500,0001. annually for the monopoly of public houses, and by which they were compelled to pay for wkat their richer neigh bours might brew for themselves at a much cheaper rate than they could purchase it. He was glad that Ministers had determined on the present measure, for it would be a particular boon to the poor. Too much encouragement could not be given to the consumpti o n of b eer by the working classes, indeed, the measure involved the question whether beer or spirits should be the prevailing beverage of the poorer classes. There could be no comparison be tween the relative merits of each, so far as the health and strength of the workmen were concerned. Ale was sana tive, while the other was destructive to the constitution. Of late years, however, the consumption of spirits, as in dicated by the extraordinary increase of spirit shops (not less than 11,000 within the last few years) unfortunately showed that ale had grown as much into disuse as the consumption of spirits had increased. Mr. C. BARCLAY contended that the present measure would lead to a diminution of the revenue, for which it would afford no counterbalancing advantage to the public., It was absurd to assert that there existed any union, or, as it had been termed, exchange of monopoly between the great brewers and distillers, so far as the licensing system was concerned. He therefore supported the amendment of the Hon. Member for Reading, upon the ground that considerable capital had been embarked in the trade, par. eicularly in the country, on the faith of the Act passed two years ago. As to the brewers, they had been always anxious to see the licensing system amended ; as a proof of which be referred to his own evidence before a Com mittee of the House of Commons 12 years ago. He was an advocate for the system of free trade, bet not in the way in which this Bill would adopt it ; for it imposed upon one class of the retail trade a ruinous loss, while its benefit to the other was problematical. Mr. WESTERN was decidedly hostile to the amend. ment, which went, in his opinion, to defeat the object of the Bill. Sir E. KNATCHBULL said, that if this measure were brought forward by the Government as a relief to the country, they would find themselves eventually disap pointed. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the proposed amendment was a direct infraction of the principle of the Bill : were it carried, the effect would be this—that the public, instead of being in a situation to have an improved commodity, would remain in that re spect precisely as they stood now, with the superadded dis. advantage of having a two-guinea licence instead of a five guinea licence to authorize the business of the retailer. He would put it to the Hon. Mover of the amendment, whe ther this state of things was likely to promote the object which he professed to have in view,—whether it was cal culated to satisfy the wants of the people, and remedy the enormous abuses which the Hon. Member for Reading had himself admitted, and which were daily growing into a wider extent of complaint. The Hon. Member, in pro posing his amendment, had also broached some extraordi nary doctrines of law; he said, that by the common law, the trade hail been restricted. Now he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was not before aware that there were any restrictions at common law respecting the sale of beer, beyond those which were necessarily implied in the pre servation of the ordinary behaviour of the community. The common law left the trade free ; it was the counter acting operation of the statute law which imposed restric tions. But the Hon. Member for Reading had put his view of this question upon two principles : first, as to the necessity of preserving the property which has, upon the faith of Acts of Parliament, been invested and engaged in this trade in particular neighbourhoods; secondly, as to the equal necessity of maintaining a strict police re gulation throughout the country, as referable to the morals of the people. Now, no man could feel more than he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) did, for the well being of the pecuniary rights of this class of the community; and no man was snore sensible than he was that a certain diminution in the present value of their capital was likely to follow the adoption of this Bill—a result which he lamented as much as any man could; for from what he had seen of them, he believed them to be of a reputable class of the community, and well deserving every special consideration which was not incompatible with the general good of the country. However, the only alternative before him was this,—whether he would lean towards the supposed interest of the smaller class, or towards that of the community generally. This being his situation, be could not hesitate upon the decision which he was bound to take under such circumstances. It really was unfair to look at the Bill through the narrow view which some Hon. Alembers were disposed to take of its bearings. This measure went merely to extend the means of selling beer for the benefit of the humbler classes of the community; but the old restrictions still continued to apply to those who sold beer, with other exciseable articles; and it appeared from the evidence given before the Committee upstairs, that the value of dealing in those other excise ible articles was v,ry considerable—a profit which, of course, the parties would retain, notwithstanding the provisions of this Bill. Thee, as to the apprehended mp : competition open th e t ra d e , as it was called perfectly true that an i ncrease o f t h e num bers embarked in the tr ade would imply competition, yet eoeinvas from throwing was it likely that the existing possessors of large and well conducted houses would lose the advantages they had and the formation of a good connex ion ac q u ired by the proper manage ment of their business, by the mere setting up of a fetealne individualsne perhaps, limited means , i n the same neighbourhood ? If Hon. 11Iembe rs wou ld l oo k i n t o igi,bour with, the evidence given before the Committee, they would see what was said by a gentleman who had a large public-house, in a district where a free public-house had afterwards, at no great distance, endeavoured to compete with him. When this individual was asked the effect of this competition, hie answer woo that he did not fear the result ; his trade continued as good as before ; he took in the newspapers, he looked after the comforts of his room, he studied the disposition and wants of his customers, and had therefore no apprehension as to the result. What dif ference, therefore, ought to be recognized between this in dividual's case and that of others under circumstances of the like nature; the old establishments must have the ad vantage of experience and connexion, and therefore ought to have nothing to fear. Upon the general question lie would distinctly say, let the entrance into the trade be free, and that once accomplished, let the individual en gaged in it be subject to whatever restrictions Hon. Members deemed seasonably necessary. Indeed, if the larger principle were conceded to him, he was prepared with other clauses, which he was sure would obviate many of the objections made to this Bill. Among them was one to declare that none but an inhabitant householder should be permitted to embark in this trade, so as to guard against the introduction of persons without substance or a local residence, which would make them known in the neighbourhood. Ia the next place, he meant to propose that the householder should give two sureties, who were to be answerable for the penalties which the retailer was liable to incur. If the House would add any other regu- Intions for the better ordering of these houses, he should willingly concur in them. But when the Hon. Member for Reading said that his clause was necessary for the protection of the public, be (the Chancellor of the Ex chequer) must say, that he felt the contrary to be the fact; the clause was, is his opinion, a double de lusion,.—first, as regarded the orderly car ying on the trade; and next, as concerned the public. The com plaints had been heretofore mixed up as between the public, the retail vender, the brewer, and the licenser, and the Hon. Member for Reading said that, only give him this clause, and he would find a remedy for all the other abuses. He regretted that he could not acquiesce in his temptation ; he should like to see the promised clause for remedying the evils so much dwelt upon, of the move ments of informers, and trusting in future to the infor mations of men of respectable character. He confessed he was unaware how this reformation was to be effected; it was a process of legislation, with the fulfilment of which he feared he must plead ignorance. From the best consideration which he was enabled to give this subject, he believed the most unfounded apprehensions prevailed, both in the trade and out of the trade. He had seen a series of resolutions, which were agreed to on the 25th of March by the licensed victuallers of Nottingham, which he took, from his knowledge of the general intercommu nication of the trade, to be a fair specimen of the general understanding which prevailed in it through the country. These resolutions were against the diffusion of retail brewers, as prejudicial to the public morals—that increase of profligacy had followed their extension, without the slightest addition to the comforts of the humbler classes. Now, he was perfectly convinced this was not true—it was the fault of the system which he sought to remedy ; ' he was confident that the retail brewers as at present con stituted, gave no material addition to the comforts of the poor, and for this reason—that they were beset with re strictions and dangers, which impeded and marred them at every step under the provisions of the existing law. They were every moment brought to the threshold of informations before the Magistrates; the public morals were, he knew, outraged under the extension of the pre vailing system, and that he believed must continue until the proposed alteration were adopted. He was therefore decidedly of opinion that the moral controul could be much better executed within than without the walls of the licensed victualler's house, and that even the contagion of bad example would be less felt when excluded from the public eye. In this respect he thought it very desirable the consumption of beer should take place rather on the premises than without the doors, for both the moral dis cipline could be under such circumstances better enforced, and the public nuisance where it did arise more effectually abated. With these opinions he must resist the clause of the Hon. Member for Reading. If when the House de cided on that proposition, they would let him go through and explain the other clauses, and then have the Bill as amended printed, embodying the various practical sugges tions which he had received, they would be better able to come to a clear view of the whole question before their final decision. This was all he asked. Mr. ESTCOURT said, as to the amendment of the Hon. Member for Reading, he thought that instead of improving matters it would make them worse. If it were carried:he certainly should propose another amendment, providing that the beer should not be drank within one hundred yards of the premises where it was sold.—(A laugh.)—He knew this was absurd, still it was a corollary from the other proposition,—(Hear, hear.) Mr. CRIPPS spoke, but quite inaudible in the gallery ; he was understood to say that he had many objections to this Bill, which he thought ought not to pass in its pre sent shape. Mr. MABERLY felt himself bound, though favourable to the principle of free trade, to vote for the amendment. Mr. R. COLBORNE was of opinion that if all the duty on beer was to be repealed, a perfectly free trade in that article ought to follow, which, though at first it might create great fluctuations, would ultimately settle itself, like all other trades.—(Hear, hear. )—He should, therefore, support the Bill as it was now brought forward. Instead of seeing the whole duty taken off beer, he confessed he should have preferred if only ss. had been taken off, and Is. off malt. Mr. F. BUXTON, while admitting that the fears en tertained of this measure as far as the brewers were con cerned, had been greatly exaggerated, contended that the loss to the publicans would be as great, if not greater, than was anticipated. There had only been one or two in stances of petitions being presented in favour of the clause under the consideration of the House, while hundreds bad been presented against it. He did not mean to say that the measure would be positively bad ; but it would, at any rate, be questionable. By it public-houses might be opened during all hours of the night, and in any places, and r o security was granted for their being properly con ducted, for the fine and penalty proposed by the Bill was no security at all. At present there was some difficulty found in keeping public-houses in good order, though the publican was liable to have his license forfeited, which was equal to a fine of 5001. What, then, would be the state of the case where the fine was only 21. 10s. ? He con ceived that the ether parts of the Bill contained innova tions, sufficient to satisfy the advocates of free trade, and he hoped the House would refuse to accede to the intro duction of any more. If at a future period it should be found necessary to make any fresh innovations, then let them be done, but he thought some consideration ought at present to be extended to the publicans. He should support the amendment of the Hon. Member (Mr. Monck), which was exactly in accordance with a clause introduced into the Bill of an Hon. and Learned Gentle man some years b ac k.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. HUSKISSON, who rose amidst loud cries of " Question," promised that he would not trespass more than five minutes on the patience of the House. He re minded the Committee, that when the Right Hon. Gen tlem in, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, informed the House that the whole of the beer duty, amounting to 3,000,0001., was to be repealed, that intelligence, gratify ing as it was, was hailed with still greater delight, because it was stated that the remission of the duty was to be by no means the measure of relief afforded to the country; but that the annual expenditure of a million and a half would be saved to the country by the removal of those im pediments, restrictions, and obstacles, that grew out of the then existing system of beer trade and licensing. It appeared to him that the proposition of the Hon. Member for Reading was neither more nor less than this—whether or not the House was to give up the relief of one million and a half of taxes. The present licensing system was a great evil, and if allowed to continue, the evil would only increase, and be rendered more difficult of removal. It was his opinion, that if the monopoly which the brewer at pre ,ent enjoyed were to be continued, and the tax taken off beer, that monopoly would become more complete and more injurious than ever to the public.—(Hear, hear.) — Having promised not to exceed five minutes, he would keep his word with the Committee, and sit down. Mr. BROUGHAM did not think he should trouble the House so long as five minutes; but he could assure the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Huskisaon), that he had never known, a promise, such as he had made, so accurately kept before.—(Hear, hear.)—He was perf-ctly ready to admit that the Bill respecting beer, introduced about six years ago, contained a clause expressly prohibit'ng the con sumption of beer on the premises where it was sold ; but the ground on which he allowed the introduction of that clause was, because he had not the slightest chance of carrying any part of the measure, unless he bad consented that the clause should form a portion of it. He, how ever protested against it, considering that it created a great defect in the measure, and he had not altei el his opinion on the subject.—(Hear.) Lord MILTON thought the House should not came to any conclusion on the proposition of the Hon. Member for Reading, until more information was afforded as to the mode in which the scheme of the Right Hon. the Chan cellor of the Exchequer was to be carried into effect. Sir E. KNATCHBULL hoped the Hun. Member for Reading would postpone his amendinont until the Bill was presented to the House in a more amended form. In all large towns, the result of the measure may have been correctly stated by its advocates ; but in country districts he was sure it would lead to the opening of public houses, not fur the purpose of selling beer, but for the sale `\,_ of spirits, and those too not brought legitimately into this country. Before two years should pass over, the Right Hon. Gentleman would come down to the House with a proposition to amend his Bil. For these, and in consideration of the immense property embarked in the beer trade, he should support the amendment. Mr. MONCK was understood to say that he should press his amendment to a division. 118 143 The Committee divided— For the amendment Against it Majority against the amendment —25 On our return to the gallery, we found Mr. BRIGHT making some observations upon the clause respecting the prohibition of the use of deleterious ingredients, the effect of which, he contended, would be to keep up the excise laws respecting beer, and destroy the principle of competition, on which the Bill was founded. A desultory conversation took place, in the course of which.— The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER s a id, that it was his intention that the sale of cider should be on the same footing as that of beer. The report was then brought up, and ordered to be taken into further consideration on Tuesday next. The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at a Quarter-past Two o'clock. LIST OF THE MINORITY OF THIRTY-TWO WHO VOTED FOR MR. HUME'S MOTION, " To lay before the House the case submitted to the Law Offi cers of the Crown, and their opinion on the same, on which his Majesty's Ministers have transferred the Customs' Duty on the 4% per cent. Sugar, to the amount of 35,0001. a year, from the public revenue to the 4% per cent. Fund, and out of the controul of Parliament." Althorp, Viscount Easthope, J. Attwood, M. Fazakerley, J. N. Bentinck, Lord G. Graham, Sir J. Baring, Sir T. Gordon. It. Bright, H. Guest, J. J. Brownlow, C. Heathcote, E. Cavendish, W. Jephson, C. D. Crompton. S. Monck, J. B. Calvert, C. Milton, Viscount Calvert, N. Newport, Sir J Davenport, E. O'Connell, D. Davies, Col. Poyntz, W. S. Dawson, A. Rice, T. S. Rickford, W. Waithman, Ald. Warburton, H. Western, C. C. Whitmore, W. W. Wood, Alderman TELLERS. Bernal, R. Hume, Joseph PAIRED OFF. Carter, J. Denison, W. J. Wood, John PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS. STAMP DUTIES ON NEWSPAPERS. 1. An Account of the Amount of Stamp Duties on News papers received during each of the last Twenty Years, in England and Scotland. SCOTLAND. Year ended Jan. 5. 1811 1812 1813 1814 1815 1816 1817 1818 1819 1820 1821 1822 1823 1824 1825 1826 1827 1828 1829 1830 2. An Account of tl vertisements recei Years, in England Year ended Jan. 5. 1811 1812 1813 1814 1815 1816 1817 1818 1819 1820 1821 1322 1823 1824 1825 1826 1827 1828 1829 1830 YNOLAND. £. 9. d. 328,413 10 11 335,095 8 0 345,902 1 8 362,241 4 4 363,500 0 0 363,414 3 5 350,393 15 8 349,104 4 0 350,257 3 0 365,080 11 4 419,618 15 8 394,995 17 4 378,485 19 8 390,375 8 8 409,281 0 0 425,154 10 8 429,662 15 2 428,629 9 S 439,798 8 0 438,667 10 8 he Amount of Stan iveil during each of I and Scotland. INOLAND. .E. s. (1. 113,546 19 1 114,195 11 5 115,875 18 3 114,111 12 10 106,575 9 8 110,941 6 6 118,202 8 4 116,352 4 11 119,788 19 4 122,227 3 3 123,772 15 6 125,965 17 5 131,288 12 0 125,475 5 7 134,633 19 3i 144,751 2 6i 135,687 7 2 133,978 16 11 136,368 17 10 136,052 18 10 £. s. d. 21,288 7 8 21,054 13 9 22,948 6 8 21,921 19 7 20,158 7 7 20,281 12 lei 16,612 2 4 14,180 5 4 17,481 13 4 19,060 5 0 20,609 6 8 19,273 18 • 0 20,387 8 0 20,795 13 0 22,387 9 4 24,419 17 0 22,013 6 4 29,929 10 4 33,556 2 8 42,301 6 0 1p Duties on Ad the last Twenty SCOTLAND. X. s. d. 11,041 8 0 14.397 9 0 14,448 6 0 14,623 7 0 13,410 3 0 14,017 7 0 15,353 8 6 16,666 13 0 17,240 6 0 16..911 9 6 16,416 15 0 16,095 2 0 17,030 16 6 16,020 11 0 17,825 17 0 18,701 18 0 17,779 13 0 18,400 14 6 18,939 12 5 17,592 5 7 THOS. LIGHTFOOT, Acct. and Compt. Gen. Acct. and Compt. Gen.'s Office Stamps, May 6, 1830. STAMP DUTIES ON NEWSPAPERS. (IRELAND.) I.—An Account of the Amount of Stamp Duties on Newspapers received during each of the last Twenty Years, in Ireland. " 1917 £18,885 1 21 1818 20,210 16 6 1819 21,187 1 111 1820 22,693 10 10 1821 22,346 9 7 1822 23,556 1 Oi 1823 25,448 _ ._2 5 1824 £25,635 13 6. 1825 26,659 9 3 1826 25,187 11 9 1827 25,561 3 11 1828 27,330 16 8 1829 28,578 16 7i l there Was no separate Account • kept From of t he the Stamps y ear s issued lfi l 0 to f 8 o rl Newspapers in Ireland. 2.—An Account of the Amo vertisernents received duri Years, in Ireland. luta of Stamp Duties on Ad ing each of the last Twenty 1810 £15,723 11 7 1811 20,479 5 3 1812 20,915 5 10 1813 21,253 3 11i 1814 19,759 17 6 1815 20,475 16 1i 1816 18,498 7 5 1817 18,191 12 '7 1818 18,535 12 6 1819 16,721_1 Si 1820 £15,491 0 0 1821 15,102 5 0 1822 13,708 7 3 1823 14,524 381 1824 16,426 10 9 1825 15,907 15 0 1826 15,720 0 0 1827 14,379 17 6 1828 15,532 15 0 1829 14,985 6 0 ,RRISON, Comptr. of Accts. GEO. HA : Corni traller's Office, Stain' Ireland, May 3, 1830. UNIVERSITY INTELLIGENCE. OxFoan, MAY 21.—Wednesday last the following De grees were conferred:— DOCTOR IN DIVINITY. Rev. Samuel Curlewis Lord, Wadham, Grand Compounder. BACHELOR IN DIVINITY. The Rev. Charles Carr Clerke, Student of Christ Church, and Archdeacon of Oxford. MASTERS OF ARTS. Rev. John Medley, Wadham, Grand Compounder. Rev. John Hoole, Wadham. Rev. Edw. Sachevrel Cave Browne Cave, Braeenose. Rev. Henry Trimmer, Exeter. Rev. John Byron, Exeter. BACHELORS OF ARTS. James Allan Harrison, St. Mary Hall. Wm. Watts and Travers Twiss, Scholars of University. John Upton Gaskell, Magdalen Hall. Isaac Singleton Gothnond, Queen's. Edward Cooke, Queen's. Jasper Nicells Harrison, Scholar of Worcester. John Bradley Dyne, Scholar of Wadham. Henry Bostock, Wadham. Henry Fowler, Wm. Robert Brown, and Thos. Halton, Brasenose. James Guillemard, Fellow of St. John's. Joseph Hayward, Exeter. Samuel Valentine Edwards, Trinity. In a Convocation, holden the same day, the Rev. Wm. Key, M.A. Fellow of Lincoln College, was unanimously elected Curate of the Perpetual Curacy of Kirkdale, in Yorkshire, vacant by the death of the Rev. George Dixon, the last incumbent. WESTMINSTER ELECTION OF SCHOLARS.-The follow ing young Gentlemen have this week been elected to the Universities, viz. : _ _ To CHRIST CHURCH, Ox FORD. —Mr. George Day, Mr. William Cother, and Mr. George Barnes. To TRINITY COLLEGE, CAMBRIDG Sturman Latimer, Mr. Eales, and Mr. Wrottesley. The Rev. Walter P, Powell, 8.A., Scholar of Wor cester College, has been appointed Master of the free and endowed Grammar School at Bampton, in this county. ECCLESIASTICAL FREFERMENTS. The Rev. R. Waldo Sibthorpe, 8.D., of Magdalen Col lege, has lately been licensed to the Chapel at St. James, Ryde, Isle of Wight, by the Bishop of Winchester. The Rev. Gentleman has already commenced his labours, and intends to establish a lecture on Thursday evenings. The Rev. Henry Heigham, 141,A., to the Rectory of Bradfield Combust, Norfolk. ?ACES OF STOCKS THIS Sulk Stock 3 per Cent. Red. 92 3 per Cent. Cons. 93 V0i 3% per Cent. — Ditto Red. 99%% t per Cent. Ann. 102%% Ditto, 1826 — ttank L. Ann. Ditto 30 years Ditto 50 years — India S ock — Dtto Bonds ...... ...... 84 pm. DAT AT ONE O'CLOCK. South Sea Stock Old Annuities ....... New Ditt0.....—.. ... . .... -*" Ex. Bills, XI,CAO 2d. 78 PI- Ditto lid. 78 79 pg. Ditto ..... ......500 2d. 78 79 pnl. Ditto.. Ditto gull 24. 78 79 pm. Ditto lid. 78 79 pnu Bank for Account India for Account Cons. for May 25 93%4 NCH YKSTERDAY. COURSE OF EECH. Amsterdam C.F.12 61 Ditto, at sight 12 51 Rotterdam 2 U. 12 7 Antwerp 12 61 Hamburg M.B. 14 0 Altona l4 01 Paris, S days' sight 25 65 Ditto 2 U. 25 85 Bordeaux 25 90_ Berlin Frank fort on Maine, EL M. 155 Petersburgh, ruble, 3 Us. 10 0 Vienna, effective n. 2 M. 10 14 Trieste ...... do 10 15 Madrid 36 Cadiz 36% Gilboa 36 Barcelona 351( Seville 35% Gibraltar 47% Leghorn 47% Genoa .25 85 Venice 47 Malta 48% Naples 32% Palermo per oz. 111) Lisbon Oporto 433 Rio Janeiro Bahia 27% Buenos Ayres Dublin, 21 days' sight t Cork 1 ➢ULLION PER OZ. X. S. d. Portugal Gold, coin 0 0 0 Foreign Gold, in bars 3 17 9 New Doubloons 0 0 0 New Dollars Silver, bars, standard 0 4 1 1* BEST FAMILY NEWSPAPER. FROM SATURDAY next, May 22, the SPECTATOR will be ENLARGED by ow half; viz. from 16 pages to 24. It will contain a greater variety of readable matter than any other Weekly News paper; with a NEW PLAN of ADVERTISING, by which each advertisement will be conspicuously displayed' without encroaching on the portion of the Paper which is due to the general reader. An early Edition for the Country, will, as usual, be published in time for the P °4 of Saturday. Price One Shilling. Orders received by all New.venders and Postmasters and at the Publishing Office, 4, W e lli ng t on - s t ree t, Strand' L 3r, - ~,,. A. ,14 I ' o aimietan,,,,34pk: .... 4444 , 7."‘p?.-:2:,... - 4 f, , 47.--..."" *344. , LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, MAY 22, 1930. HIS MAJESTY'S HEALTH. The following is the Bulletin issued this day : " Windsor Castle, May 22. " The KlNa's symptoms remain the same. His MA° Jits.nr has passed a better night. (Signed) " HENRY HALFORD. " M. J. TIERNEY." An Express from Paris has brought the Moni leer and other Papers of Thursday,—confirming the change in the French Ministry, which vve noticed in The Sun of yesterday. Besides the change in the Ministry of the Seals and Finance, there is a new Member added to the Cabinet by the creation of a new office, under the title of Depart' ment of Public Works, the duties of which formerlf belonged to the Minister of the Interior. The neve Minister appointed to this department is the Baron CAPELLE, Prefect of the Seine and Oise. Of the retiring Ministers, M. de COURVOISIER, the Keeper of the Seals, and M. de CHABROL, the Minister of Finance, a Morning Contemporary justly remarks, that " the former is known for his constitutional opinions and liberal-party Con nexions, before his union with the PoLIGNAC Administration ; and the latter distinguished for that acquaintance with business which ren ders him an acquisition to any Administration, along with those moderate views and conciliatory dispositions which have enabled him to act with successive changes of colleagues. Their successors are M. de CEIANTELAUZE and M. de PEYRONNET, both violent ultra-royalists. The former has BP' peared very little in public life, and is not much known beyond the circle of his private friends. The latter, on the other hand, has been long in office, has been prominently engaged in party c ur flicts, and has been honoured (as his friends would say) with more popular odium than any man in France. In order to make room for M. de PEYRONNET, in the department of the Interior, the present Home Minister, M. de MONTBEL, moves to the Treasury. Whatever confidence with one party, or whatever unpopularity with another, M. de PEYRONNET may bring into the Cabinet, he brings along with him decided royalist principles, an unquenchable energy of character, and an admitted capacity for business. As the battle of the Ministry will have to be fought chiefly in the Chamber of Deputies, his powers of oratory will give him a great influence in that assembly, into which every Minister, though a mem ber of the other Chamber, is admitted to defend the measures of Government. While in the VII.' LELE Cabinet, he put himself forward, or was put forward by his colleagues, in many hazardous legis lative enterprises, in several of which he failed. It was he who introduced the obnoxious law of the Press which was defeated in 1824,—wh0 proposed the law of primogeniture, which was likewise thrown out, and several other unpopular acts. It was he who wrote those circulars to the persons subject to his Ministry before the general election of 1827, which were denounced with so ranch indig nation before the tribune. It was he who ordered so many prosecutions against the Press, on the law of tendency, till he perceived that the Royal courts would no longer convict. For these reasons he was the constant object of attack during the whole VILLELE Administration, to the overthrow of which his bad repute, both in his public and private capa city, not a little contributed. Being the known ob ject of hatred with the popular party, he has never ceased out of office to return their blows through the Press as far as lay in his power, and he will now use the powers of his Ministry to set their opposi tion at defiance. It may be thought by some, that this is likely to lead to the return of VILLELE; but this is a mistake. M. de PEYRONNET is called to the Cabinet, not to forward, but to prevent such a result. These two Ministers, though they long acted together, never entertained towards each other any cordial friendship, nor reposed in one another any confiding trust. Besides, if M. de r nseudp superior, r t , h woulde an C d ab p in ri e n t e , e h p e omac GN no t i s disposed to surrender the Premier splohr noi VILLEL E pt. ,bblbrook 0. nrkeottua. (From of Thursday.) The following extracts m ex on tr it a e c u t r s (OFFICIAL PART.) REPORT TO THE KING. Stns,—Your Majesty, always attentive to the prosperity of France, the progress of commerce and manufactures, the means of favouring them, of increasing and improving the communi cations between the several parts of your kingdom, has thought that the impulse given to public works did not answer to thisof prosperity, to those improvements, and that it was by forms of administration too timid—by an excess of pcstilecaectekuedtion, which does not leave sufficient independence to such undertakings, or sufficiently free access to capital and the em ployment of it ; that it was requisite to put these essential parts of the public service in harmony with the necessities of the pre sent time, with the spirit of our institutions, in order to unite more and more closely the interest of individuals with the gene ral interest, in a concurrence of exertions, of advantages pro fitable to the first, and no lessbencficial to the second, by lighten ing the obligations and burdens o f the State. Your Majesty, impressed with these observations, and per suaded that the Minister of the Interior, too much engaged in affairs of the highest order, cannot pay sufficient attention to the measures which it would be useful to adopt in order to ob tain the results which you propose; that such ameliorations can not be effected by the most enlightened zeal of subordinate officers, whose situation is, perhaps, not sufficiently devoted wholly to comprehend and to vanquish the difficulties, has re solved to establish a department of public works, which uniting in one hand, invested with the necessary authority, the adminis tration of the works, enterprises, and concessions, relative to the highways, streets, roads; canals, now navigable or not navigable; the mines, quarries, civil edifices, &c., will submit these several branches of the public service to the tme impulse ; and, beside' the ac profit 1 tween Which , desirab Stat e. ) I ha , annexe Art_ to fora srpub, e ger those r 11 c€ 4 ,•ti descri °t' theredonnar Give Art Tribui Secret 2 . T app e i n 3. op Franc( t T aPrt.)in trines, partm i Si 'Kate, IN Att. Privy Genera State. All t by Pri from His had Sh accom PA R Moniti Exc 'Teter( escort( some liberty is to 112 been s not re declin e Per Ce the Fi, Perpet Thee of Just M. ( MM dience The names fortun is Mir de Pe' now• e TM will di it but this pi must the Li rited. appeal your a spite ( TIOT , the I then has 1 confi famil the , Frict DIM RCCOI to ar favor The main neve be f run the e l ug from quiri Cou nigh Parli for mit haps from