The Sun. — London, England, 1863-05-09 00:00:00

(oh, oh, and hear, hear)—its people were so brought down in the social scale by priestly tyranny and a most abomin able civil government, that it would take generations before the people would be able to enjoy the blessings of freedom. (Oh, oh, and cheers.) They might deny or impeach the statement of a gentleman like Mr. Odo Russell, and con demn what he had done, but he honoured that gentleman for preferring the humiliation of withdrawing his statement than, by substantiating ia have to give up his authors— (oh, oh, and cheers)—and subject them to those penalties which would be sure to fall on them. Mr. Odo Russell, he said solemnly, had justified his statement, and shown and proved that what he said was true. Was it possible, therefore, with the present state of things, that Naples should be kept quiet, remembering what had been her con dition under the detestable state of her former Government. It was a case of brigandage, and not civil war, and though the hon. member had quoted the statement of some of the members of the Italian Parliament to show it was the lat ter, he ' w ould remind hi m th a t th ere were gentlemen in Op position at Turin as well as in London, who often made statements they could not prove, and cared little whether they could or not. (Oh, oh, and hear.) It was impossible to find in Naples an honest man who had in any way been connected with the old regime--( h, oh)— or any one, who had had any experience in governments, that, under • stood the action of an independent government, and it was to that fact was to be attributed the present state and con• dition of the Neapolitan gaols. The Government endea voured to carry out trial by jury, but it had failed, from their inability to find Neapolitans ready and willing to carry out their plane, and the delay occasioned thereby had caused the gaols to remain so full. With regard to the state of the prisons, he believed there was an entry in the book of one of them, signed by a noble lord (Lord Henry Lennox), speaking of the excel ent manner in which the prison was kept, and he hoped to hear a repetition of that fact from the noble lord, if he bad not been converted from his opinion since his return to this country. Some were no doubt in an unsatisfactory state in Naples, and others in a satisfactory condition, and the Italian Government had expressed their regret that the prisons of :Naples were not generally in that state they should wish to see them. But their excuse was that if the old agents were employed it would be impossible to eradicate the vices of the old system ; and if Piedmontese gaolers were introduced the usual cry would be got up that the Sardinians were bi ought in everywhere. Formerly, the state of the Italian prisons and hospitals—with the excep tion of those of Naples —were most creditable to the diffe rent governments. Especially so were those of Piedmont and Tuscany; and now was anything said against the state of the prisons of Piedmont and Tuscany ? The whole case against the Italian Government was that they had failed to bring the Neapolitan prisons into the same state as those of Piedmont and Tuscany. Let him ask, what object could the Italian Government have in keeping the Neapolitan prisons in the state represented by the hon. member ? As for the treatment of the prisoners, they were actually treated with more liberality than prisoners in England. No doubt the southern part of Italy was in an unsatisfactory state, but he would reiterate what he said last year, that, with very few exceptions, the National Guard were true to the Government. As for the charges brought against Sir James Hudson and Mr. Consul Bonham—that they had suppressed information and deceived her Majesty's Govern ment—he would merely leave it to the house to say whe ther it was fair and generous to level such accusations against men who were unable to defend themselves. To de clare that such men had wilfully deceived the Government was a calumny which ought to be resented. It was true that they heard occasionally of acts of atrocity being perpetrated in Southern Italy, but such acts were inseparable from the state of brigandage which existed there. And it was not the Italian Government, but those who sent the brigands out, that were responsible for the brigandage. (Hear, hear.) He altogether rejected the charge that the English Govern ment had encouraged these brigands to cross over from Malta to the Italian shore. The hon. member said this was a civil war, and not brigandage; but was there ever a civil war in which no man of property, no officer wearing a uni form, no prince of the blood was engaged ? It would be un worthy of England to insult a great and independent Go vernment like that of Italy, by year after year publishing these reports on the state of Italy. (Hear.) He admitted the condition of Italy was not satisfactory, but at the same time he maintained that no country had achieved its indepen dence in so short a time of which there was so little to com plain. (Cheers.) Great things had never been accomplished without great trials,and Italy must be prepared to go through her day of trial. With respect to the statement of the hon. Member for King's County (Mr. Hennessy), the lion, mem ber had very ingeniously confined his observations to the years 1861 and 1862; but had he really desired to test the condition of Italian trade, he ought to have compared its Present state with what it was in the year '55, '56, '57, '5B, when Naples was under the old regime. But at the same time he could mention this extraordinary fact, that while during the last 12 months our exports,in consequence of the civil war in America, had fallen off to all other parts of the world the exports to Italy had increased. Last year he had explained that although, according to the new Italian tariff, the tariff of Naples had been reduced 80 per cent., yet the customs' receipts had only fallen off to the extent of 17,000,000 francs, showing that the trade of the country had increased fivefold. That was a most remarkable fact. The hon. member seemed to think that because the trade of Italy with England had not increased, that therefore its trade with the rest of the world had fallen off. Now, the fact was, that the trade of Italy with the zest of the world had increased enormously. (Cheers.) Lord H. LENNOX, as an independent member, desired to speak as to facts connected with the present condition of Italy, which had come under his own eyes. But first let him observe, that no one who knew him doubted but that his warmest sympathies were with the cause of the Italian people; and that even in the days of Magenta and S lfe fetino, when many of the friends of Italy dissociated them selves from the cause, through a dread and jealousy Of French interference, he had never shared that dread or that jealousy. But when such facts as he had seen in Italy came under his notice, it was impossible to remain blindfolded with respect to the real condition of the country. He de sired to raise four questions. In the first place, he would ask whether it was true that at the present moment there prevailed in the Neapolitan Kingdom a system of personal domestic espionage; secondly, whether there existed, not merely at Naples, but at Genoa, Florence, Milan, and Bo logna, a perfectly free press, and at that point he was at direct issue with the Under. Secretary of State, for he had visited every one of those towns; thirdly, he invited the house to examine whether under the benign rule of Victor Emmanuel there existed that complete personal liberty of which the Under-Secretary spoke; and fourthly, he would answer the challenge of the hon. gentleman, by directing at tention to the state of the Italian prisons. Now, with re spect to the system of espionage, he begged to say, upon his personal responsibility, that the very same system, worked by the very same agents, as prevailed under the Bourbon regime was still maintained, and that it was not persons of low caste that were subjected to its influence, but men of birth and education. —men too who had suffered under the rule of Ferdinand and Francis 11. He had a list of those persons by him, and either the hon. gentleman or the noble lord at the head of the Government w( re perfectly welcome to look over that list, although he dare not make them public in that house. In support of his assertion that perfect liberty of person did not exist in Naples, the noble lord stated that since his visit to Naples two months since, and not more than a week or two since, 200 indivi • duals, men, women, and children, had been swept off into prison, only on suspicion of sympathy with the Bourbons, (Cheers.) With regard to the absence of freedom of the press, he would observe that every morning in the Neapo litan States each paper was submitted, before it was pub lished, to as official called the Questor,who was empowered to confiscate ane seize such as he disapproved of, and even to suppress them altogether, Such confiscations and sup pressions were not confined to Naples, for they also took place in other parts of Italy. Within a month a newspaper of Florence, called the al uova Europa, had been seize d four times in nine days, and finally the editor had been heavily fried, and imprisoned for three months. Another paper, celebrated for its thoroughly liberal sentiments, had come to the same untimely end. In Milan the Persereranza had been confiscated for republi s h;ng a despatch from Earl Rus sell t to the Turin Government. I n th e Romagna a newspaper which had been in existence only two years had been sup pressed 2 4 times, one of its editors being fined and imprisoned for two Years for reprinting articles from Piedmontese news papers. Many journalsa were suppressed i n one p r ovince and allowed to circulates in another, showing ho w com plete the unity of Italy v (Laughter.) In th re e y ears 27 journals had di e d a l together, havingil been suppressed by the been police and never havi ng owed to reappear. Th e no bl e lord quoted the case, of one aedito r,whose office had been at tacked by mobs and destroyed had bimself been threatened with assassination if hetwhalltote°rapted to republish protection of the Go his journal, and who, in claiming prison vernment for this purpose, had been P on the charge that his protest against the outrag e into loyal. The Government had thus set the st rage p was th t: approval on this threat of assassination. Wattmh liberty of action in the Neapolitan States, the nroael;!seittr-c-1 proceeded to state that he had arrived at Naples, partisan of Victor Emmanuel's Government, but what he had seen in going over the prisons in Naples had induced him to modify his opinion. He had visited those prisons with a member of the Turin Parliament, who, for having accompanied him, had since been suspected of entertaining reactionary sentiments, had been the object of newspaper attacks, and finally had been summoned before a judge to answer for having conspired against his country. The second interrogatory part to put him was whether Lord Lennox was not a parents of Lord Normanby, :who appeared to be the bugbear of the Italian Government. (Hear.) Having stated what he had as to liberty of person and of discussion, as to liberty of the press, and as to the system of espionage, he confidently appealed to the house to know whether ho was not right in charging the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs with having misled the people of England last year by stating that the change in Italy had raised the people from the " verge of slavery to the enjoyment of the fullest liberty." (Laughter.) With regard to personal liberty, the noble lord stated the result of a visit made by him to the prisons of Naples, where, he said, nothing could be described as badly conducted so far as regarded tried and convicted felons; b u t, as regar ded .poli- Bttc6ahr, l opriae ners the ease was different. H e b a d seen Mr. 'act la another cell found a prisoner who had been twenty-three months incarcerated, without having been tried or even interrogated, on suspicion of being a revolutionist. On leaving that cell he had n sur rounded by a crowd of similar prisoners ing out " Why are we in prison ? why are we not ju d F'' An appeal made to the governor of the prison led to the state ment on his part that he deeply regretted to say that he had no less than eighty-three prisoners confined, H ho had never been convicted or even preliminarily examined. Many of these prisoners were most miserable objects, and not at all likely to be dangerous to a Liberal Government. Onleav ing the prison they inscribed their names in the books, in accordance with the rules of the place. After mentioning the courtesy of the officials, and the cleanliness of the build ing, they appended their protest that they could not help observing with regret that so many persons were detained there untried, many of them uninterrogated, and not know ing from the authorities the cause of their imprisonment. After he had left the prison he began to have misgivings of the blissful enjoyment of liberty by the Neapolitans. In the second pr son he visited, which was the debtors' prison, he found amongst the inmates who were confined for debt two men who had been convicted and sentenced—one to impri sonment for life for homicide, and the other fourteen years for forgery. There were also one Li- hop and five priests there, neither of whom had been informed for what he was confined, and one of whom was over seventy years of age, who was kept cn the prison diet of one meal a day with cold water. He next visited the women's prison, where he found a large number of women confined for their political sym pathies. (Hear, hear.) The most ridiculous cass was that of three femal, s—three unhappy sisters—who had been con fined for twenty-two months, because, as they learnt ten months before, when they were taken before the magistrate they were suspected of having hung a Bourbon flag out of a window, but which in reality were the bed sheets that they had hung out to dry. (Hear, and laughter.) And with those who were confined for political offences were associated wo men of the lowest class and of the most abandoned characters. When he visited the fourth prison, the gaoler informed him that it was capable of accommodating 650, but that 1,359 were at Lhat time incarcerated within its walls. The result of the overcrowding had been that a virulent typhus fever had broken out amongst the inmates, and that if under the circumstances he wished to inspect the prison he could do so. He went in, and he found in one cell eight or nine priests, about 14 laymen suspected of political offences, and 10 or 12 convicted felons. In the next cell there were about 157, the greater part of whom were untried. During the whole day (with the exception of a short time they were allowed for exercise in a wretched yard) and all night they were kept in that cell, not knowing for what they were there, and with them was a man convicted of murder, and who was to be executed the week after. In the next roam he found 230 of these wretched men, and the state of filth and squalor in which he found them would require an abler an I more elo quent tongue than his to adequately describe. They were men of different classes, who had been condemned to that living death because they had listened to the voice of Gari baldi. Many of them had been imprisoned so long that their clothes had worn out, and they had not money with which to purchase others. One was in a state of absolute nudity. He had no shirt or trousers, and only a ragged coat, which he threw over his shoulders; anc his condition was so bad that ha could not rise to make his obeisance and ask for mercy from the strangers. (Hear, hear.) The stench was fearful then (which was in the month of January), and what, he asked, must it be now that the hot weather had set in ? (Hear.) The food supplied to them would not heve been given to cattle in this country, and the bread was so hard that he was unable to make an impression on it with his foot. In the next room were 303 persons confined—one was dumb, and another a hunchback—but all protesting against the so-called clemency of the Government. In the prison which had been visited by the Chancellor of the Ex chequer, and which he had described as a charnel-house, he found 1,200 confined there in a space allotted for not more than 600. There were but one gaoler and 14 warders to control these wretched beings, and the gaolers, both in that and all the other persons, implored him to use his influence to obtain an alteration of the present system of overcrowding; and he gave an emphatic denial to the state ment made by Mr. Bonham that the atrocities committed upon those wretched individuals were due to the cruelties of Bourbon gaolers. (Hear, hear.) In that building he found 850 confined in five rcoms, running one into another, with only open iron rails between them. As soon as he appeared amongst them he was beset with petitions and entreaties ; and as soon as they heard he was an Englishman they formed the vain hope that he had come to relieve them from the greatest cruelty and oppression. In fact, what he saw there he could only compare to "the hell -tortured victims" in Dante's " Inferno." The noble lord then described his visit to between 40 and 50 conspirators. He did not sym pathise wi:h conspirators, and their crime was that they had deserted Victor Emmanuel, and had listened to the voice of that great and honest man, Gar it aldi ; and if any man might in such a case temper justice with mercy that man was Victor Emmanuel. ( Hear, hear.) In a most miserable and narrow cell, with four iron bedsteads, without a table or books to cheer them, he found four men chained two and two with the heaviest of irons. It was at first difficult to recognise in that situation so distinguished a man as Count Christian, but he made a sign and said " I appreciate your feeling. You feel pity for me. Don't do that, but feel pity for those who desecrate the name of freedom by treatment such as this lam now suffering." (Rear, hear.) Signor Carraciolo, with another political offender was there, and he was chained to a man who had been a brigand, and who was convicted of robbery and manslaughter. In that con dition he found those gentlemen, whose misfortune it had been to differ in opinion with the Government, and whose crime had been to conspire against them chained with the heaviest of irons to the commonest of malefactors. (Hear, hear.) Against such a system as that he entered his protest. He cared not whether such deeds of dark ness were done under a Bourbon, or under the pseudo liberality of Victor Emmanuel, but in the name of England he denounced the commission of such barbarous atrocities. The captives all desired to be tried. To the end of every vista, however long, they had a spark of hope, and did they bit know their fate that spark of light would grow longer and larger as the period for their liberty arrived. Their present suffering was intolerable, and many of them believed that the certainty of imprisonment for life (which would destroy the hope of a release) would be preferable to their present state of intolerable suspense. He hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would exercise his influence with the Government and put a stop to such a state of things as he had described, and prevent its leading to the graves European complications. (Cheers). _ _ Mr. BUTLER-JOHNSTONE, in a vory promising first speech, admitted some of the grievances complained of by Lord H. Lennox in the state of the Neapolitan prisons and the detention of persons without trial, but suggested various considerations which should mitigate the responsibility of the Italian Government. He pointed out the mass of evils with which that Government had to centend placing it in a position, he said, in which no other Government ever found itself. The existing state of things in Italy was exceptional, and would pass away. Time was required to admit of radical improvements in a society infested by in veterate vices, which the present Government had set itself sincerely to work to eradicate. Mr. GOWER defended the Italian Government in regard to the state of the Neapolitan prisons. He thought that Lord H. Lennox had been intentional) , misled upon the subject by reactionary agents. With reference to the con dition a Italy, he enumerated a variety of material and moral improvements introduced since the change of rulers. Sir G. BOWYER argued at some length that the South of Italy was really in a state of insurrection, the so-called brigands being supported by the whole body of the popu lation ; and he dwelt upon the severities exercised by the Piedmontese Government towards Southern Italy, which was trodden down, he said, by a merciless despotism, lie held h•r Majesty's Ministers responsible for the state of things in Ita y. Mr, AGAR-ELLIS, speaking from personal examina tion, gave a far less unfavourable description of the Neapo litan prisons than Lord H. Lennox. After some remarks by Sir P. O'BRIEN', Mr. COCHRANE said the Government had either been kegt in ignorance by their own agents of what was passing in Italy, or they had been culpably silent. He produced a nominal list of 188 persons shot in cold blood by the Pied montese Government in the first three months of the pre sent year, and also a proclamation which he denounced as infamous. He thought her Majesty's Government had failed in the cause of humanity. Mr. W HALLEY protested against the whole discussion. Due notice should, he thought, be given of such a debate. Mr. MAGUIRE animadverted upon what he termed the inflammatory address of Mr. Layard, uttered in reply to the most temperate speech of Mr. Bentinck. What, he asked, had been the result of the violation of international law and the machinations of Victor Emmanuel and the policy of her an d Majesty's ashan.l Governmentathe state of F things A unity described that was he a r mck oy Majesty's Government was asked to interfere and remonstrate in a friendly manner with that of Piedmont, in order to put an end to the atrocities perpetrated in Italy. to L th o o rd ou P t A je L et Nl of E t ß he ST de O b N at — e, I to w s i e s t h r , ig b h ef t o a reladdres misrepresentation which ha s b een made with regard to the conduct of Mr Ode Russell i n a particular transaction. An hon. member— sy s s lf n I am ashamed to say I do not recollect who—quoted from a Brussels paper, Le Nord, an account of a supposed conver sation between Mr. Odo Russell and the French General commanding in Rome. (Sir G. Bowyer---" I did not.") Whoever it was, I would recommend him never to consult that paper again. (Hear, hear.) Sir G. BOWYER—I did not sp=ak from information de. rived from any newspaper. I spoke from more trustworthy information. (Hear, hear.) Lord PALMER&I.ON—The paper, -Le Nord, was men tioned, and the conversation was quoted from that paper. (Hear.) That assumed conversation was a great reflection upon the good breeding of the French General, because it is unusual for gentlemen in society to make use of the ex. pression which is attributed to the French General, and, knowing him to be a gentleman of refined manners, I do not at all believe that he used it. The facts of the case were these —Mr. Odo Russell received information from persons whom he believed to be trustworthy, but whose names he was not at liberty to mention, that certain brigandshad passed out of the Papal territory in French uniforms, not furnished by the French Government, but by those persons who supplied the meaw of the expedition, The French Government denied the THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, MAY 9, 1861 fact. Both Mr. Odo Russell and the French General were speaking of things of which they were not eyewitnesses. Mr. Odo Russell had not seen the brigands. The French General could not deny from his own knowlege that they had passed. Each spoke from authority. Mr. Odo Russell said he would not press his information against that of the French General, but my hon. friend the Under-Secretary stated that in which I concur—namely, his belief that the information given to Mr. Odo Russell was more correct than that which had been given to the French General. (Hear.) 'I here was another point. The hon. baronet who criticised the pamphlet of my right hon. friend the Chancel lor of the Exchequer said that Poerio was an imaginary person, whom my right hon. friend had dressed up with drarc.at'c effect and surrounded with circumstances which never took place. I have another Poerio—a real Poerio, who was in England, and from whose lips 1 heard a com plete and accurate confirmation of everything stated by niy right hon. friend. (Cheers.) Therefore I quote my living Poerio against the aerial Poerio who the hon. baronet some how or other imagined was a creature of my right hon. friend's mind. (Cheers.) Ido not complain of the debate which has taken place. (Hear.) lam not one of those who think that it is beyond the functions of this house to discuss any subjects, any matters, any affairs in any part of the world which members may think deserving of attention and discussion in this house. (Hear, hear.) The members of this house may say-- Homo sum; huma►i nihil a me alientrm puto." I think we may be satisfied to discuss every matter which bears a general interest in the affairs of Europe and theworld, and that discussion is very useful. (Hear, hear.) Although we may hear many things, as we have heard to-night, to tally wrong in argument, mistaken in point of feeling, and leading to conclusions entirely inconsistent with fact, yet, nevertheless, those statements are met by counter state ments at the time, as they have been this evening, and the conflict of opinions leads at last to the establishment of truth. When debates go forth to the world, and are read with attention—as I trust everything which has passed this evening will be read with attention by all who take an interest in the subject—that conflict of statements and opinions elicits truth and tends to good in its ultimate result. (Hear, hear.) Therefore I am not objecting to any thing which has passel in the course of this debate, nor do I object to the setting up the affairs of Italy for a free, fair, and full discussion. (Cheers,) It has been a most interest ing debate. We have heard most admirable speeches. I must compliment the noble lord on a most eloquent and admirable speech—(hear, hear)--a speech which does great credit to his good feelings and his energy in explaining those dark recesses of which he gave us an account. But I must say that the statements which he made, so far from incul. pating the present Government of Italy, showed that, in spite of all their exertions, the abuses of the former Govern ment still remain unextinguished—(oh, and cheers)—be cause he tells us of nothing which we do not know to have actually existed under the reigns of the Neapolitan Sove reigns ; and therefore the only result of that statement which he made is that the present Government has not sccceded in entirely getting rid of all the abuses which existed. (Derisive cheers) We had another able speech. although it brought down upon the person who made it the attacks of some on the other side of the house We had an able speech from my hon. friend the Under Secretary of State, and I think those who heard that speech and saw the way in which he refuted point by point all the state ments which went before him—(oh, oh)—will agree with me that it will go far to established that truthful result which I contend is the effect of debates which take place in Parlia ment. (Hear.) Then we heard a most admirable speech from a member newly come within these walls—a speech delivered with great eloquence, with great power of language, and with an earnestness which proved the deep conviction of the speaker by whom it was delivered. We must give him great credit also for the energy with which he has di rected his mind to the subject. I trust that that which is an admirable beginning will be followed by still better re sults, and that he will frequently give the house the benefit of his remarks. (Cheers.) But the real fact of the case is this—that we do not deny, and we cannot deny that on the Neapolitan territory there does exist a great number of abuses which are, in short, relics of that system which was overthrown when Garibaldi passing from Sicily came to Naples, and presented, as he did, the kingdom of Naples to Victor Emmanuel. Everybody must agree that in every other part of Italy there is nothing of which complaint can be made. (Oh, oh.) Lombardy is flourishing; Tuscany is in good condition. No one says any evil of Modena. Parma we never hear of; the Romagna, added from the States of the Church, is cenfessedly in a most flourishing and happy condition. It is only in the kingdom of Naples and Sicily that these complaints exist. (Cheers.) Let any one recollect how difficult it is for a Government to mould and weld together six additions to an existing State —and such is the task which the Italian Government has had to perform. To Piedmont have been added Lombardy, Tuscany, Modena, Parma, the Romagna, and Naples. All these bad different organisations, different laws, different tariffs, different systems, and all these had to be welded into one harmonious whole. I think any one who knows any thing of the difficulties of government can hardly expect that in two years the task will be completely and satisfac torily accomplished. In those parts with regard to which no external influences are at work it has been accomplished i❑ a wonderful degree (cheers)---because in five of those States which I have enumerated things go on well, and no com plaints whatever exist. (Cheers.) Naples is the exception, and why 7 Because, next to Naples we have Rome. Be cause in Rome there is a French garrison. Because that French garrison protects the ex Court of Naples. (Loud cheers.) And, because, under the shelter of that foreign army there exists a committee of, I believe, no less than 200 people, whose constant employment it is to organise bands of murderers—(oh I and loud cheers)--of the scum and dregs of every nation, and to send them forth into the Nea politan territory to commit every sort of atrocity. (Cheers ) And then we are told that is civil war I Good God I what an idea gentlemen must have of civil war when they dignify acts of the most atroci ruffianism—(loud cheers)—by a name which may imply the loftiest sentiments and the highest possible social and political aspirations. (Cheers.) I say they do commit acts of the greatest ruffianism (cheers) —because they burn houses and murder people, and they destroy and lay waste. They burn people as well as houses. They burn their captives. (Hear, bear.) We have know ledge of this, and therefore I say they do commit atrocities which ought to make those who send them forth to commit them blush to the deepest dye, (Cheers.) Then, there are gentlemen in this house who are proud of their re ligious faith, who cling, as they may naturally and pro perly do, to that faith, who call themselves pre-eminently Catholic, while they set their face against the liberties of Italy, and seek to rivet her fetters, forgetting that the Ita lians are 20,000,000 of Catholics, as good as themselves, and who ought to be better, inasmuch as they are nearer the source. (A laugh.) I confess lamat a loss to understand why this should be the case—(hear, hear)—but be that as it may, I still contend that if those disorders which have been mentioned continue to prevail their continuance is due to those who from Rome keep up this agitation. (Hear.) After all, it may, be, perhaps, that this state of things is not otherwise than in the usual course of affairs. Great changes of dynasty cannot well be effected without a long series of disorders. No change of dynasty has ever taken place in any country with the immediate and entire acqui escence of the people of that country. Indeed, I would say that the worse a Government is, the more corrupt it ie, the mere likely it is to leave behind it when overthrown per sons who lived by that corruption and who regret to find that their means of livelihood had departed. Such is the case in the Neapolitan territory, and it is not to be supposed that by a stroke of the wand, or by the apparition of half a dozen followers of Garibaldi in red shirts in a railway car riage, all traces of the former monarchy are at once to be swept away, and that there should not remain behind some persons who, from motives of interest or from attachment to the old dynasty, should desire to see it restored. It is a great mistake to imagine that it is the majority of the Neapolitan population, and not the smallest possible minority, by whom such sentiments are entertained. Great difficulty has, no doubt, been experienced in introducing into Naples that pure system of government and jurisprudence which one would wish to see established there, and which it has been the earnest desire of the Government of Turin to carry into operation. It must, however, be borne in mind that you cannot govern without instruments, and that, as my hon. friend the Under-Secretary of State re marked, those instruments are wanting in a country which has been corrupted to the core by a long system of arbitrary and tyrannical rule. The hon. baronet who spoke last seemed to ridicule the idea that ajury could not be procured in Naples; but the fact is that, owing to the system of terrorism which has for a long time been established, per sons are afraid to come forward and discharge the duties of jurymen, and that is the reason why the prisoners are not brought tD trial with the despatch which is desirable. It is a great pity that such should be the case, because the detention of so large a number of persons in gaol for so long a time un tried and without being proved guilty of the crimes laid to their charge is no doubt a great evil. This, however, is no novelty. It is simply the continuation of a state of things which previously existed. There was, I may add, another evil which existed before, but which no longer prevails. Under the old regime persens who had been tried and ac quitted, and sent back into society, were still held under a species of superintendence, and were not allowed to be mas ters of their own actions. As many as 70,000 persons were thus placed under the surveillance of the police, and were not allowed to leave their homes, engage in any pro • fession, or do anything, in short, which a free man would wish to do, because they feared they might be re- committed to prison, notwithstanding their previous acquittal. (Hear.) If now the prisons in Naples are not in such a state as one could wish to see them, this is so, I contend, in spite of the exertions of the Italian Government to place them in a better condition. I may further observe that the detailed statement of the noble lord opposite (Lord 11. Lennox) has been, in many respects, contradicted in the course of the discussion by those who have had oppo r t un iti e s of seeing the prison i n t o w hi c h h e o b ta i ne d adm i ss i on. Th e very fact, ind ee d , t h at the Neopolitan prisons are thrown open to anybody, be he Englishman or any other stranger, and that there is no concealment as to their condition, clearly shows that the Italian Government does not at all events object to be told of its faults, thus affording an indication that it is disposed to remedy them. The hon. member for Dungarvan, I may add, has to-night repeated his prophecy that an united Italy cannot last, that it will all fall to pieces, and that their ancient dynasties will be esta blished once more in all the separate States of the Italian peninsula. But I hope he may turn out to be a false pro phet, because the unity of Italy is likely, in my opinicn, to be the foundation of her prosperity. That unity has up to the present moment been attended with the most beneficial results. It will, I trust, continue, and if arrangements could be made so to extend it as to embrrce the whole of the Italian provinces, I feel quite satisfied that no country in Europe, no population in the world, could attain to a higher pitch of happiness and prosperity than an United Italy, so constituted, would achieve. For her Majesty's Government, I will only say that we do not at all regret the part we hove taken in this question. We have been accused of intermed dling, but we have done so only in the shape of moral in fluence and the expression of opinion. I am glad to think that the course we have taken has c 'lied forth the gratitude of the people of Italy, and that it has done so I know to be the fact. The people from one end of the country to the other are deeply grateful to the English nation for the kind and warm interest it has taken in those transactions which have tended so much to their happiness, and no doubt any influence which we may be able indivi dually to bring to bear with a view to putting an end to those evils which still survive their unity it will be the duty of the Government to exert. It is not a fitting or becoming thing for cne Government to interfere in the internal administra i.‘n of another State ; but thereare, at the same time, cases in which friendly advice might be given, and I feel assured the discussion this evening will be attended with good results in connexion with those points which have been the subject of comment. The hon. gentleman who spoke last but one alluded to the case of Mr. Bishop as one in which, in his opinion, a great amount of tyranny was exercised. Now, Mr. Bishop was on his trial, convicted of having been a car rier of treasonable correspondence between Rome and Naples —au offence of deep dye. He was sentenced in accordance with the law, but the sentence in its execution, though not altogether revoked, was greatly modified at the intercession of her Majesty's Government. So far from the case of Mr. Bishop then being an example of over-severity on the part of the Italian Government, it ought, I think, rather to be looked upon as an instance in which the Government has yielded to the friendly recom mendations of her Majesty's Ministers, and remitted a large portion of the penalty inflicted by a court of justice on an individual who had beyond doubt greatly offended against the laws of the country in which he chose to reside. I have simply to add, in conclusion, that I feel assured the Italian Government will pursue that course which, notwii hstanding the allegations made to the con trary, I maintain it is pursuing—naniely, the establishment of order with every indulgence consistent with the attain ment of its object. I trust that it will exercise no undue severity, but that with the means placed at its disposal it will enforce that authority which I contend has its founda tion in the free will of the Italian people; which is in ac cordance with the national desire, and which being so will, I am confident, be more lasting than the hon. member for Duogarvan seems to imagine, (Cheers.) Mr. DISRAELI—I entirely concur with the noble lord in not regretting that this discussion has taken place. We are, I think, indebted to the hon. gentleman who brought forward the subject for the most interesting and animated debate of the Session. I may add that it is with some pride I advert to the circumstance that it was from these benches three speeches were delivered to-night, to which everybody who beard them must have listened with the utmost plea sure and satisfaction. (Hear, hear.) This question of Italy is one which requires in considering it that we should look a little back. It is about five or six years ago, or more, that the condition of Italy, owing to its critical state, began to attract the deep attention of the House of Commons. Various opinions were then expressed by hon. members on both sides of the house as to the position of that country, her future fate, and her possible fortunes. There were then two great opinions which swayed very much the conduct of public men. The first was the great doubt that prevailed whether the unity of Italy was possible—whether you could mould together seven or eight different nationalities, coun tries with different laws, with almost different languages, and under the influence of different policies. Secondly, there was a consciousness that in any contest in Italy it was a question as to the supremacy either of Austria or France. However the people of England might disapprove what was described by a classical writer as the iron rule of Austria, still we naturally felt jealous of changes and revolutions in Italy which might tend to the aggrandisement of our powerful neighbour and lead to the preponderance of her influence in an alarming degree. With these considerations before us it was not surprising that Parliament and public men should have spoken with much diffidence and some distrust of the commencement of those great changes which we have lived to see and the consequences of which, to a certain degree, we have realised. What seems to us now very easy and plain to comprehend were really some half a dozen years ago poli tical mysteries which the most sagacious could not pene trate and which the boldest could not contemp late without mistrust. (Hear.) What was feared actually took place. Italy was relieved from the power of Austria, but in exact proportion as the power of Austria was diminished the in fluence of France was substituted and maintained. (Hear.) Fortunately for Italy there arose to guide her destinies a statesman of eminent ability. It has been said that Cavour was a man not very scrupulous as to his means. This is a question which I leave with the historian to decide. He may have been unscrupulous in his means, but this all must adroit that he was clear in his vision and practical in his policy. (Hear, hear.) He knew what:he wanted, and what he wanted he accomplished. He knew it was possible in the circumstances with which he had to deal, and with the means at his command, to establish a king dom of Italy of considerable power and resources ; and, like a wise statesman and true patriot he looked perhaps to a future which would increase the power and multiply the resources of that kingdom. But as far as her Majesty's Government are concerned, they were originally as dis trustful as others of the future of Italy, and their policy was vacillating and timid. I hardly blame them, because they had to act under dark and difficult circumstances, but I say that their policy at the beginning and for some time was not that policy which has been boldly described to night. (Hear.) On the whole I believe ber Majesty's Go vernment, ins . ead of assisting the patriotic views of Italian statesmen, instead of consolidating the strength and de veloping the resources of a practical and powerful king dom of Italy, have, either for the sake of objects upon which I do not care to dwell, or from a weak ness of political vision, adopted a policy which has tended to weaken Italy and to distract Europe. (Cheers and mur murs.) This is not a question which:can be settled by in articulate means. (A laugh.) I say the policy of the Eng lish Government has laid the foundation of future embar rassment for the world (Hear, hear.) What were the difficulties with which Italy had to contend when, unfor tunately for her interests, Cavour suddenly quitted the stage and she was left without a master mind to guide her for. tunes and to mould her destinies ? There were two great influences acting on Italy, which were opposed to that ideal unity which had been the dream of her greatest statesmen for generations, and which, having adopted it from the Popular opinion of the day, they suddenly became the patrons. Those two great influences were the traditional policy of France, which, under every form of government —kingdom, republic. or empire —for reasons which France deemed wise, was hostile to the Court of Rome, which was hostile to a scheme which might not only deprive it of its political estates—a very secondary consideration—but pro duce a revolution in Re position which might bring about consequences throughout the world most adverse to Catholic interests. Hence her Majesty's Government, by announc ing themselves as the patrons of Italian unity; placed them selves in collision with France and Rome. (Hear.) An hon. gentleman cries " Hear, hear," and if he is prepared to sup ; port a Ministry which dared to struggle with the French Empire and the Roman Court for the unity of Italy, I might doubt the prudence of such a policy, but at least it would be intelligible to me. If England had chosen, with the sanction of her Parliament and the unanimous approbation of the nation, to throw all her influence into the scale, and to say, what no one doubts, that Italian unity would add to the strength and splendour of Europe and tend to the great advantage of this country, and to devote all her arms and energies to the accomplish ment of that object, she would have pursued a policy which one can understand. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord has taken great credit for his patronage of the independence, freedom, and, above all, unity of Italy. Brave words we have heard in this house from the noble lord. (Hear, hear.) There have been speeches and there have been despatches. All that could tend to irritate, and alarm the mighty influ ences that were opposed to Italian unity was, as far words went, called into operation. I am not aware, however, that the noble lord has done more than speak, and write, and indicate a policy—(hear, hear), but he has not ventured to grapple with the gr ea t i n fl uences ar rayed against the policy he patronized. The consequence is the state of things which we now witness—a state of affairs which Cavour would have looked upon, had he lived, with sadness and dismay, which he would have striven to avert, and the fore- sight of which would probably have led him to say to Eng land, "Be our active and practical ally, or cease to insult those with whose overpowering resources we must ultimately =tend." (Hear) Since the death of Cavour the programme, to use a fashionable word, of the national party in Italy has been "Movement, development, uni y, Rome,"—immense words—verba sesquipedalta—used by men of very little minds and very slight resources. What have they leant upon ? They have leant upon the support of England. In the English Parliament some gentleman, if not with the absolute co-operation of, at least with social encouragement from the noble lord, constantly brought forward the sub ject of th e s t a t e o f I taly. It was let out lik e a b ag -f ox , an d followed w ith a f ull halloo. Every year we had the noble lord prese n t e d t o us as the regenerator o f I ta l y, t h e sav i our of the country, a n d th e performance en d e d with invectives directed against th e P ope, and a prom i se , announced amid the cheers of the honourable member for Brighton and his friends (a laugh), that Rome should be the capital of a united Italy b e f ore the end of the sess i on . (L aug ht er and cheers.) It wa s th e f avour it e q uestion of the Govern ment. Indeed, w h en the Reform B ill was w i t hd rawn , th e capture of Rome was the great measure of the Session. (Hear.) And now in what has all this ended ? Cavour withdraws from the scene—no commanding mind in Italy, France naturally j ea l ous of our uncer t a in and irritating policy, Rome al arme d , Rome and France l eague d aga i ns t th e unity of Italy; th e noble lord conduc ti ng a p o li c y o f wor d s , Epeeches, “Ild d es p atches; the Italian Government, without a leader, still hanging on the accents of English Ministers, perpetually adopting a line which nothing could justify ex cept commanding genius and commanding legions, holding out to the people the immediate expectation of Rome being made their capital by the overpowering interference of their English ally, and representing results which will not occur, if ever, for half a century as the consequences of the pass ing hour. And what has become of the state of Italy? A state of dismemberment, of confusion, vexation, embar rassment, disgrace, and humiliation. (Cheers.) The hon. member for Peterborough has doubted whether the condi tion of Italy is a legitimate subject for our debate. He shrinks from irritating the Vatican, and would rather con cen Irate all his efforts against Maynooth. (Laughter.) I want to know on what ground we are to discuss the state of Poland, if we are not permitted to discuss the state of Calabria and the Two Sicilies. (Hear.) True, in one country the insurgents are called brigands, and in the other patriots, but, with that exception, I have not learned from this discussion that there is any marked discrimination between them. (Oh, oh ! and cheers.) But, says the noble lord, it is really only in Naples that these disturbances occur, and Naples after all is merely a province. Naples merely a province I What becomes, then, of your united Italy ? (Cheers.) Is it only in Naples that this dissatis fat tion appears ? It is expressed in every other of the six States absorbed. There is universal discontentment and complaint. But what have we heard to-night ? A de scription of the state of things has been given, which has not been contradicted, end of which every gentleman with information on these subjects was previously aware, though he had not heard it related in detail with the picturesque animation which accompanied the statement of the noble lord the member for Chichester. When you talk of the liberty of the press, is it a fact or not that it is not enjoyed in any part of Italy P Is it true that, whether in Milan, or whether in Genoa, or even in:Turin, and certainly not in Florence, the liberty of the press does not exist ? (Hear, hear.) Is it a fact or not that the liberty of the person is much in the same state as the liberty of the press ? (Hear, hear.) The reason given by the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs why persons are kept in prison without trial is cer• tainly one of the most remarkable I ever heard, While the country is improving its jurisprudence one of the regulations is that the prisoners, until the improvements might be car ried into effect, should be locked up. (Laughter.) The rea son given by the Under-Secretary, as far as I can collect it, for not bringing persons to trial is that the jurymen are not considered capable of performing the duties of their high office. But what if a more natural reason be the true one, and that jurymen are not found capable of carrying into ef fect the intentions of the Government ? (Cheers.) I put it to any philosopher who decides on human conduct upon abstract principles, and not with a knowledge of the circum stances, which he would think the most natural solution of the monstrous state of affairs des _ribed by the Under-Sec retary—mine, or that which has the official warrant; and I ask him to decide which is the most probable, the most natural, and, certainly, which is the most true reason. (Hear, hear.) This is the condition of Italy at the present moment; it was the condition of Italy last year, and it is one highly unsatisfactory, I believe, to the Italians as well as to England. (Hear, hear.) They have been kept in a state of constant excitement and irritation from expectations held out by our Government through a course of policy being in dicated by England, which England was never prepared to act upon, and which England was not justified in holding out without being prepared to act on it. (Hear, hear.) Only last year the noble lord informed the country and Europe that immediately they might expect some great change in Italy, and that a solution of all the difficulties of Italian patties was about to be accomplished. But, mind you, we have had a very different tone to-night. We have not heard from the noble lord any expressions on that sub ject. Much as he is obliged to keep up some appearance of unity in the policy of the Government, yet there have been no expectations held out to-night of Rome being immedi ately, or even eventual y, the capital of Italy. There have been no menaces to France, no promises to Italy —menaces and promises generally equally fallacious ; but, on the con trary, the noble lord has spoken with much moderation on the subject, and the noble lord appears to have adopted the tone of the sensible observations made by my hon. friend the member for Canterbury in his admirable speech, great in performance, and greater still in promise, from which it may be hoped that the hon. member will contribute much to the interest of our future debates. (Hear.) My hon. friend, fresh from Italy, and well informed, has taken, as we all have a right to do, his own interpretation and view of public affairs. He stated that there is now a chance for Italy, that there have been some progress and some improvements, and that, though the difficulties have been immense, there is more common sense among the Italians than the world gives them credit for, and that they have dismissed from their mind the wild notion of taking possession of Rome as their capital. That was what was stated by my hon. friend as his impression of what is the state of public opinion in Italy : and the consequence is that, as the views of the Italian Governuent are now more practical, the pro spects of the country are brighter, and there is hope that the people st, ill be content now in consolidating their strength and developing their resources, and not indulge in those wild dreams of impracticable politics which, for some reason or other, were encouraged by the Minister of Eng land. (Hear.) That was the gist of the speech of my hon. friend, and I entirely agree with him as to the present con dition of Italy. I believe with him that the state of Italy is an exceptional state. You cannot expect in a nation where a great revolution and great changes have taken place that logical order and propriety in the Administration of the laws and the practice of the constitution which you meet with in such a country as England. That is the result of time and experience —experience showing the blessings of order and a settled constitution, and time moderating the human passions and toning down the dispositions of men to a practical enjoyment of life. I agree with my hon. friend in the opinion he brings from Italy that the Italian Go vernment has given up those extreme views he adverted to, and that there is now a more practical consideration of affairs, which will, I hope, lead to the increased prosperity of Italy in bringing about that state of things which was contemplated by the greatest of her statesmen, and which in time may be developed in greater proportion. But if this is to be brought about it can only be brought about by Italy pursuing that policy with temper and perseverance. Italy must learn to depend on herself She must not depend either on the expectations held out by English Ministers, which cannot be realised, or on the hopes held out by French Governments, which may lead her into a position most em barrassing. The Ministers of Italy occupy at this moment particularly a difficult position, They must extricate them selves from a false condition of affairs, made up of exagge rations conceived in the epoch of a revolution, and which rival Governments have played with in incessant manoeuvre But they cannot do this unless they let Europe know that they are pursuing a policy of peace and conciliation, not of war, invasion, and aggression. (Hear, hear.) There is no country in ►he world for which peace is more necessary, and of which peace should be so decidedly the policy, as Italy at the present moment. Last year, when we had some inci dental discussion upon the subject of Italy, with reference to our own public expenditure, I ventured to say that the policy pursued by our Government with regard to Italy and the centre of Europe was one of the causes of that expendi ture, I said then that the policy which we pursued with re gard to Rome was of an irritating character, which must end in disappointment and failure, and which was not war ranted by sound principles—(hear)—and that:if there were a fair and rational understanding between England and France in regard to Italy, that understanding might, and could, and ought to have a considerable effect on the expen diture of the country. Well, 12 months have elapsed, and the state of affairs which I indicated as desirable has really oceurred, There has been a change in the public opinion of Italy as to the policy which it ought to pursue. Rome is no longer held forth as the necessary and inevitable capital of Italy, without the possession of which there could be no development of resources, no expansion of freedom, and without which industry could not receive the fruits of its exertions. On the other hand, between England and France, as far as we can judge, there is this understanding on the subject of Italy—it is apparently argued that Italy shall no longer be the scene of rival policies—that she shall be lei alone to the calm and tranquil development of her resources, and the consolation of her political power. I think the prospects of It in these respects far more favourable than last year. (Hear, hear.) All who have spoken to-night have described the state of Italy as more or less better than it was said to be last year. I agree with the noble lord that it may be productive of good that the details which have been given to-night should be known to Italy and to Europe. I think that knowledge may tend to a considerable amelioration both of a public and a private nature. But 'hat is still mere important is that England should be thoroughly disabused as to the popular opinion with respect to the condition of that country. (Hear hear.) Italy is not at this moment a land flowing with milk and honey. (Hear, hear.) Italy is a land much exhausted by great struggles ; she has gone through the trial, I am bound to say in a manner which, on the whole, must elevate her in the consideration of nations. (Hear, hear.) If she has not realized what I would call the visions of her friends, she has far surpassed the expectations those who were not friendly to her may have indulged in. (Hear, hear.) She has shown energies which the world did not give her credit for, and which, if well husbanded, and if they meet a fair fortune, may tend to the ultimately triumph of her ambition, provided it be one such as circumstances justify and which the nature of things will permit. (Hear hear.) This is not an unfavourable prospect after all the fears which have been engendered during the last two or three years, The general condition of affairs is much ameliorated. But that amelioration can only be secuxed by adopting the causes which have led to it —namely, relinquishing that policy of the English Government, which was a policy of words, not of deeds, by promoting the natural consolidation of her Government and the natural development of her re sources, and by obtaining that liberty in practice which at present she possssses only in theory. (Loud cheers.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—So many appeals, Mr. Speaker, have been made to me in the course of this debate that I can scarcely reconcile it to my mind, if I may trust to the patient attention of the house, to sit still without saying one word in answer to those appeals, and withcut noticing the speech which has just been deli vered. My hon, friend the member for Taunton (Mr. C. Bentinek) and try noble friend the member for Chichester (Lord H. Lsnnox) have both delivered speeches of great ability, and they.appear to think it most inconsistent on my part not to join them in the course which they have pur sued, to which they think I am bound by the part which I took some 12 years ago. I take it to b a vary great oomph •• went that I should receive from the noble lord and the hon. gentleman so distinguished an expression of opinion on their parts as that they are now pursuing the course, though with reference to different persons, yet on the same prin ciples, which at that comparatively remoto period I thought it my duty to pursue. But I am bound to say there is a very material difference between us, and especially between the noble lord and myself. (Hear) The noble lord has visited Italy. He went there enthusiastically attached to Italian freedom—nay, n'ore, he was a devoted adherent of the Go vernment of Victor Emmanuel— (hear, hoar, from Lord H. Lennox)---but having, during his visit, observed things which appeared to him painful and disgraceful, al:hough he was aided in every respect by the officers of the Govern ment, although he received from General La Matmora an order which laid open to him the inmost recesses of the prisons, although he states that every prison was under the control of a man of humanity and intelligence, and although ne was enthusiastic .11y attached to Italy and to the Italian Government as its organ, yet it never occurred to my noble friend that it might be just to give that Government the opportunity of profiting by the researches he had made, but my noble friend thought it better to conceal the know ledge which he had acquired until he could import it into his own country, and there could deliver it from one of the seats of the House of Commons amid the cheers of an ad miring audience. (Cheers.) Lord H. LENNOX (who rose amidst loud cries of "Order" from the Government benches) said—My expe riences of the first prison I went to, which resulted in the protest to which I have alluded, were written and signed by me on the express understanding that the paper should be forwarded to the Government of Turin for their informa tion. (Cheers.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—That was the prison which I think received at least a qualified approval from my noble friend. (Hear, hear.) But he went to a variety of prisons and amassed a multitude of facts, and his enthusiastic attachment to Italian liberty and to the Government, its organ, did not prevent him coming to the House of Commons and making it and this country the first confidential recipient of what he had seen. (Cheers.) And my noble friend thinks he is walking in nay steps. Nothing could be more different. I did not go to Italy as the devoted friend of the Neapolitan Government. I never professed such a thing. (Hear, hear.) But although I was not the devoted friend of the Neapolitan Govern nent, what I saw and heard I did not give to the public at home until everything was brought to the notice of the Neapolitan Government. the course which I took was this—l placed in the hands of Lord Aberdeen, that admirable man who upon one subject had prejudices, pre judices in favour of the Italian Governments, every state ment I had to a ake, and I entreated him, to which he cheerfully consented, to bring the whole of these statements under the view of the Government of Naples before they were made known either to the House of Commons or the public. Well, Sir, it was the deliberate resolution of the Neapolitan Government to take no steps for the removal of the evils which I witnessed that drove me to the steps which I afterwards took. (Cheers,) After what my noble friend has said, it is impossible for a moment to question that he is a most enthusiastic friend of Italian freedom and of the Government wnich has been supposed to be the organ of the people, having been freely chosen by its suffrages. (Hear.) 13,,t I mu t say if . instead of having those lofty sentiments in favour of Italian freedom, of which he has given us so many assurances, my noble friend had been tainted with ideas the most opposite, if it had been his object to do every thing in his power to discredit all those who are connected with the cause of Italian nationality, I doubt whether he could have taken a better considered course than the one he has pursued, (Cheers.) Sir, I protest against the course which the noble lord has pursued. It was his duty as an im partial Englishman to make these inquiries, but, had it but been in common acknowledgment of the assistance he re• ceived from the Italian Government in prosecuting these investigations, it was also his duty frankly and fearlessly to have laid before them the result of his inquiries, reserv ing his right, if necessary, to appeal to this tribunal. (No, no, and hear, hear.) But that does not, I admit, absolve us from our duty of paying due attention to the statements which the noble lord has made. With respect to those state ments and others it will be enough if I refer to what has fallen from my noble friend at the head of the Government. The habits of bad government—(" Hear, hear," from Sir G. Bowyer.) Will the hon. gentleman be good enough to re strain his enthusiasm, which is always at fever heat on this subject—(cheers and laughter)—•and leave me to pursue my path undisturbed ? (Hear.) Sir, the habits of bad govern ment do not depend on the perverted will of a single individual, although that individual may be a king— nor upon the perverted will of a Cabinet or a Court. They descend with 10,000 fibres through all the ramifications of society, and when the Italian Government succeeded to the possession of power in the Southern provinces of that coun try they did not succeed to a paradise which they have since defiled, but to something like the very reverse of a paradise, and which it will take a protracted time and gigantic la bour to cleanse. (Cheers.) What, for example, is to be done with the hundreds, the thousands, the tens of thousands who in that unhappy country formerly gained an infamous livelihood as gaolers and spies ? Is it to be supposed that a new Government can make a clean sweep of all the func tionaries whom they find in office ? Only gradual reforms can be carried out in the ranks of the official corps in such a country. That reform must begin at the head, and go down to the smaller officials. Has that reform begun ? The noble lord says that in every case at the head of the prisons he found men of humanity and intelligence. (" Hear, hear," from Lord H. Lennox.) Does he suppose that I was permitted to enter every prison and obtain encouragement and assistance from the head ? (Sir G, Bowyer—" Yes.") Does he suppose that I was welcomed as a co-operator and a friend ? No, on the contrary. The statement of my noble friend the member for Chichester proves that there is much that is lamentable and much that is disgraceful to the im• mediate agents in the system that prevails in the south o; Italy. But it also provesthat even there reform and improve ment have begun. (Hear.) The principal functionaries have been removed and replaced by better men. The light of day has been let into the inmost recesses of the darkest caverns. There is not an abuse or a horror that is not brought freely forward. And the whole of the statements of the hon. member for Taunton were not the result of researches wade by him, but were a reference to discussions in the open air and in open Parliament by the representatives of the Italian people. (Cheers.) Therefore, I say that from the very worst and darkest features of Southern Italy—and some of them, I admit, are very bal and dark—there is ample reward for the past and abundant encourage ment for the future. (Cheers.) After the speech of my noble friend the member for Chichester came that of the hon. gen tleman the member for Canterbury. I was pleased to hear the right hon. gentleman who has just sat down say that he had listened to that speech with the utmost pleasure and satisfaction. lam only very sorry to remember that the pleasure with which the right hon. gentleman listened to that speech, vivid and intense as it was, was not more largely shared by hon. gentlemen on that side. (A laugh.) My hon. and learned friend the member for Wallingford had, I believe, left his place.—[Mr. MALINS—" No."] 'Was he there ? Then, lam sorry he did not give more audible expression to his satisfaction. Another hon. friend of mine sitting on that side of the house has expressed the appro bation and sympathy with which he listened to that speech. But I am bound to say —and I think it better to say such things in this house, instead of going to Slough or else where and there delivering in animated language a descrip tion of the effect which particular speeches produce in this house—that I never perceived a more marked change come over the spirit of a portion of the House of Commons than that which came over the spirit of those who occupy the benches opposite, and especially the front bench, between the time of the speech of the noble lord to which hon. mem bers opposite listened with such perfect rapture and the time when they listened with unbroken silence and almost despondency to the remarkable reasoning of the hon. mem ber for Canterbury. (Cheers.) So far as my ears can bear witness to the reception of a speech, the courage of which was not less remarkable, considering the hon. member's short experience, than its ability—the silence on that side during the whole of its clear, manly, and powerful reasoning on be half of the Italian Government was only relieved by the cheers which the hon. member received from those who support and approve the Italian policy of the Government. (Cheers and counter cheers.) However, as regards the state of Southernltaly, in the first place we have got publicity and in the second place we have got from the agents of the Go- vernment co-operation in the work of improvement. Both these facts were established by the speech of the noble lord. (Hear, hear.) I agree with him that this is not all that could be desired, and I am confident that the endeavours of my noble friend (Lord Palmerston) and of the Government will be directed to those humane aims which he has in view —(hear)—and that the Italian Government being appealed to in a friendly and respectful tone, and with the fullest acknowledgment of its independence, will not resent these disclosures—somewhat churlish though the manner may be —but will feel that those who, from whatever motive, when horrors and abuses exist, drag those horrors and abuses into the light of day, co-operate with them, whether they mean it or not, in the sacred objects they have in view, and will gladly avail themselves of that assistance. I will now say a few words on the speech which we have just heard from the right hon. gentleman. Ido not know with what impressions hon. members listened to that speech. I own 1 could better understand the critical and negative than the positive and Lifirmative portions of that speech. As to the critical and negative portion, it appeared from the clear summary the right hon. gentleman gave us that in everything her Majesty's Government have said and in everything they havo done—in everything they have omitted and committed, they have been entirely wrong—(laughter) . . . _ —that their efforts have been misjudged from first to last— that they have been odious to all parties, and disastrous to everyone concerned. (Opposition cheers.) That is, I think, a fair summary of the right hon. gentleman's speech, and I am glad it is echoed back as such. Well, that i 3 the part which England, according to the right hon. gentleman, has taken in respect t ) the Italian question. From the right hon, gen tleman I appeal to the Italians themselves. (Cheers,) It said we ought to teach the Italians to depend upon them selves. In like manner we ought to leave them to judge for themselves, and I say that they will not concur in thb state , ment of the right hon. gentleman as an impartial desorip lion of the proeeeenee4 of her Majesty's Government. TI opinion of the Italians themselves to be this — th i the aid of material force from England they neitnee expects nor desired, but that the aid of our moral force and influent was to be expected, and had been of great and lasting bo ng to the cause of Italy. (Cheers.) I appeal next from the rigt hon. gentleman in vindication of the policy of her Majesty' Government to the people of England. (Cheers.) For think the right hon. gentlem in, let him select his own au dienco at Slough or elsewhere---(oh, oh, and cheers)—wil find it difficult to bring himself anywhere, throughout th length and breadth of the land, in contact, in the free ligh of day, with English opinion without learning, on the con trary, that—not only from party politics, but likewise, in n inconsiderable degree, ab ( ye and beyond and independen of party politics—the course taken by her Majesty's Govern went ever since its accession to office with respect to the Its Tian question has bre ugbt a deep, hearty, and affeeti cuat response from the all b u t unan i mous peo pl e of Engla nd (Cheers.) Sir, to this tribunal I lodge my appeal again s the judgment delivered by the right hon. gentleman. Bn when I speak of the pi sitive parts of the speech of the righ hon. gentleman, to what do they amount ? New, what fa' his opinions about Italy ? (Hear, arid laughter.) Last yes we thought we understo o d th em . I h ave not go t his spe ed by me, and my memory is sometimes treacherous—[M hon. Member—" Hear, hear," and laughter] ; b ut thought the right honourable gentleman was sufficien t!) h explicit. He told us, I thi n k, th a t th e question WI - 8 , might become of the p o liti ca l r i g ht s o f the eubj ee° of the Pope was a matter of infinitely small cense" quence, but that the maintenance of the temporal petal of the Pope, with a view to securing his spiritual pendence, was a matter of the utmost concern, in whicb all Europe was interested. That, I think, was the ene e " - i the speech of the right hon. gentleman. Does he a dhere n ) that opinion now? Has he made any progress in his Ge rri ty sideration of the Italian ques ti on ? (L aug ht er .) I are to say that in my opini on h e h as no t yet go t to the 0 and root of the matter, but f r o m p ar ti a l i n di ca tions sue /l h a , I have not observed in his disc ourses b e f ore I think he I made a certain progress, and, possibly, if he be assisted an; encouraged, he may hereafter get on a little furt he , r iti . (laughter)—for the right ho n . gen tl eman t o - n ight has u covered that Cavour was a great man—(cheers Oat laughter)—and that he did much for his country, an d L i ll % she has suffered greatly by his removal. Unfortunate's some time has elapsed; it is not a considerable period sins the death of that great man, and it has taken the rig hon, gentleman not only the whole duration of Cavour's 11 . 1, —(" oh, oh I" and cheers)—but some two years after it n: death, to make these discoveries about the genius and services services he rendered to his country. Then the right gentleman says it would be an excellent thing—l understood him, but I speak with the greatest defereneeedr with many scruples even, as if I were endeavouring t ° 0 , cipher some obscure telegram,or to read some ancient That script with characters much defaced. (Laughter.) 1 : li t is the spirit in which I approach the speech of the °g o t hon. gentleman, and endeavour to construe it. In e lle p o ol I did think I heard something drop from him to the 6 ,.fi , that the erectic nof Italy into a great State, with stl h° 7o tive power and self-directed action, would be for the h n to of Europe and of England, If I understand him tig h to think I e• a I beg to congratulate him en having given utterance or e that opinion, because I think it shows that his opini el l r not in a fossil state,—th e) are now growing and cleci.,-°el ins;, and that there is n o sayi ng w h at h e may c orn° ;j o r last. (Cheers and l aug ht er. ) B u t a l t h ough I t e nder f m o these compliments, be th e y wor th muc h or little, I cor bound to say that I am obliged to offer them with verY note siderable reser ve ; b ecause, a l t h oug h i t i s one ' s duty to err every promising i n di ca ti on o f th e po li cy o f f u ture GI l es ments—(hear, hear) —it is exceedi ng ly i m p o rtant °la den' and the people of E ng l an d s h ou ld k now w h a t is the P" r now favoured up on th a t b enc h. (L ou d c h ee rs.) 1 ; t ne must take notice that there were parts of the speech e rt f ir right hon. ge n tl eman w hi c h s till suggests to my up givings, and even, I will frankly own, awakening 1 00 0 nance. The ri g ht h on . gen tl eman d epreca t e s o° oB l views in Italy. Wh a td o extremev i ews mean i n 't a li mean this—those who think Italy ought to be Italy are of extreme vi ews . (H ear. ) What is the position e I A bo il at present ? It is suc h as th e case of Englan d wet fo• Cornwall and Devonshi re were i n the possess i on of 'toll' reign power, and if London was garrisoned by anothe r ' ; 0 10 oh, and cheers.) I thi n k if t h at were the state a igc ner England, we should fi n d th a t a very l arge num ber e ' b r o ef, sons were possessed with those extreme views.(Rear'until and laughter) --and would not altogether be satisfi ed 10 4 they had seen the one Power driven out of CornWe l Lo in Devonshire, and the troops of the other dislodged froln';;, don. In one point I e n ti re ly agree w i t h t h e right hog, tleman, tleman, and I agree more fully with his friend th e 1 . for member for Canterbury. I b e li eve th e h o n. re erew e d e 60 0 Canterbury in that exc e ll en t s p eec h w hi c h h e delit o 10 1 nothing more true, more just, or more wise than t."" t o 0 the true course for the Italian Government was n ot t diverted by their political obj ec t s , h oweve r import s : o yd essential, from civil obj e ct. (H ear , h ear .) The firs t go iir a Government undo u bt e dly i s t o l oo k t o th e laws, t he iii' tenance of order, and the wellbeing of society in t e , toil! tory within its control. Th ese sen ti ments are con nn right hen, gentlem an an d th e h on. gentleman the reflato for Canterbury; but how differently were they used l o os two. The hon. m em b er f or C anterbury use d them in de o f of the conduct of the Italian Government, showing, s c s r o, as his judgment w en t, th a t th ey were sens ible of their rot and that this duty constituted their primary obligationo. is not one word fell from the m ou th o f th a t hon. gentle/33,a the disparagement of the ulterior duty of se' king t o hri Vi s country of Italy to its integrity and its unity. (Ilea r ' ) ,,s s right hon. gentleman quoted th e mem b er for Canterh7ol somebody sometimes quotes S cr i p t ure. (Oh, laughtebo'r for cheers) He quoted the soun d d oc t r i ne o f the In e Ta t ibie Canterbury with regard to the primary, everyday' ' n oo n 0 able, imperative duty of the Italian Government to ri d ip the organisation of the country it possesses, fora le p ol l ferent purpose; he alluded to it in order to groun d h f t the doctrine of political finality—the doctrine t'''`" 001 Italian who thinks Rome the natural and, a „l e orn capital of a strong and permanent Italian 1 “ 13 ,7 00 ,0 0° to be put down either as a revolutionist or as ."-g tyier He alluded to it for the purpose of establishallo re that the present state of things in Italy le tn lt sl; gardod territorially, th oug h not c i v i lly, as fina l'tletilj pears to me that the g eneros i ty o f the right hon. 0. .." g i to the Italian people cons i sts i n this, that he " (I , ° ll- them everything that he cannot take from th eeli „tleo7,i laughter.) At a former period the right hon. g B "d a y was, I think, an advocate of federation. But t i, 13 : 0 eia ,ao (l? federations has gone by, and Italian freedom ' - ', - „ u ies' i t cated itself over so vast a proportion of the hen ie ' st°$ t° that now there is no longer room for that se t ot - il the right hon. gentleman, forgetting the things .. .," OS' past, abandons federation, and says, " 'ye" !tor s but don't let us go further." I confess I ha ve , n e lf 4 j, that when the patience, moderation, intelligen ce, " p ea' oipline, and self-command which the Ital laa t nel have shown in s o ex t raor di nary a d egree s h a ll, in dom of Pro v id ence, a t some ear l y per i od b ear their "--0,0011 and proper fruit in the acquisition of other territorial, in moral right b e l ongs t o th em —( c h eers )— w hen °he to got it, and when it becomes obvious that it canneto.r; from them, we shall have among others the right P. ' lit er ' (lad 0 tleman walking in the rear of the triumphal can- -- - 00 8 0 .. 0 —and joining the,whole people of England in the ir a 1 0 5 acclamations upon so happy a consummation. ' i t 0 0 , 0 " say that if critical times were to come, I hav e n e °l ° P oe confidence in the right hon, gentleman's Italian to If there were to be a reaction, if foreign force lied something towards breaking up what Is now uni teu t i i - ot; I feel no absolute confidence in my own w e l d , pone right hon. gentlemen would not fall back on n' a ' roi 0 0 3 of federation. He is, I am afraid, in an Ip ,, P e nekl t s (laughter) —his mind greatly wants to be s trengt'i n gn' encouraged in the good cause, and nothing s tr i r 00 1° and encourage it so much as a str ong an d unive r6a 1 Sect ration in favour of Italy on the part of the Pe e ! . .. la t :eta tb ij o land. And let the right hon. gentleman ender s t o to 1 it will not do for him, it will not do for his frienutto'r the culcate those equivocal doctrines— (cheers)—t e a il 0 10 ambiguous sounds :n the face of the nation, do a f - 1 made up its mind to anything on earth, has T a t not mind to this, that Italy ought to be one an f at ought to be free. (L ou d c h eers. ) If, o n One ti ted l ; o l policy of her Majesty' s G overnmen t h as n ot 0 1 3e "ben the charm of m ag i c , s till l ess i s it t rue , on the ° to cli e ' t be it has irritated those with whom we ough t t i dee B ion alliance, Too well does France appreciate, o pts he Emperor of the French understand th e action o ', to 0 l oon in this country to suppose that any Governtn eut oo on AO OO construed as feeling other than the most frien all iv a ; iO , towards France, because on occasions of this ktio 41 ce° not dissociate itself from the universal enthusias. olio t h tions of the English people. Alth ou gh the P Government may not have operated, as I h eya co usil la ,,,a to magic force in precipitating event s towards a eo ,pecw ijo y tion so glorious that, perhaps, it could hardly h t tha t eon' be reached except after som e t rac t o f time, Y e focal of I assert, has been lenie n tly, i n d u l g ently, and itle° judged. Nay more; it constitutes one of th° tine p ea l to noble friend to the confidence a nd approval et copeeisreeuod (cheers),—because they beli e ve it has been t} ts equity and justice, and th a t i s di r ected towalg,) towards a righteous end. (Enthusiastic she T J , ho use The amendment was the n w ithdrawn. a u ra e' a nd into Committee of Supply, an d i m mediately e Zea l The Offences (South Africa) Bill and the 11 Boundaries Bill were read a second time. POOR REMOVAL BIL L ' o f this kit De Sir H. BRUCE moved the second r eading the Mr. DUNLOP move d as an amendme nt read a second time that day six months. Mr. AY TON seconded the amendment The house divided. The numbers were 9 For the second r e ading ................. 5 49 Against it ......................... Majority e- .............. The bill was thus lost. ,nrelt. The house adjourned at 25 minute5t;.......,.. vO' A SPI. ) London and P u blished by IVILLO--,,AAe. of No. 112, Printed Strand, Printer, at Tu r SUN Strand, in the Precinct of the 'Savoy , tb ritiddletiex,—SaturdaY, 314 Y 9 , 101