The Sun. — London, England, 1831-07-22 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, Jr/Li , 21. The Marquis of TIIOMOND presented a petition from the merchants and certain other inhabitauts of the city of Cork, against the removal of the naval station from that port. The Bishop of GLOUCESTER presented a petition from the clergyman and other inhabitants of Southborough, in Kent, praying for an alteration in the Beer Act. Mr. Britton, from the Trinity House , presented an ac count of the Pilots' Fund. Lord PLUNKETT and the Marq uis of DowarstriaE pre sented petitions from Ireland, praying for the continuation of the Irish Education Grants. The Assessed Taxes' Bill and the Militia Ballots' Bill were read a third time and passed. Several Pt ivate Bills were brought up from the Commons. Lord TEYNHAM moved for a return of the amount of capsicum imported during the last seven years. Ordered. FRAUDULENT DEBTORS' BILL. Lord WYNFORD moved that the third reading of the Fraudulent Debtors' Bill be postponed till Tuesday next. Lord PLUNKETT thought it would be necessary to make considerable alterations in the Bill before it ought to be allowed to pass. There was one point which he parti cularly recommended to the attention of the Noble and Learned Lord who had brought in the Bill. When a person went abroad, either for amusement or from what ever motive, he was liable, upon its being found as a fact that he staid abroad to avoid his creditors, to be subjected to the Bankrupt Laws. Now he could not but think that this was very bard, and rather unreasonable. To be sure there was a notice to be given in the Gazette, and at his last place of abode in this country, but that was a notice that might never reach him. Then he might he called upon to surrender, and if he did not surrender within the limited time, he was liable to be prosecuted as a felon, and to be sentenced to transportation. All these pro ceedings might take place without any actual notice to the party to be affected. Another circumstance deserving of particular consideration was, the effect which this Bill would have on creditors. A gentleman wishing to raise money en his estate, gave the person advancing the money a judgment as a security en which the lender might issue his eleyit, and take of the land what was sufficient for the payment of his debt. But if the gentleman should be made subject to the Bankrupt Laws, then the estate would be brought into the general fund, and the judgment cre ditor would lose his preference, and be put on the same footing as the simple contract creditors ; at least such was the law in Ireland. So that if a man lent one hundred thousand pounds upon this species of security, and on the ground of the estate being liable for the full amount of the debt, he might, by the operation of this Bill, lose nearly all his money. This would be the consequence of sub jecting a person, not a trader, to the Bankrupt Laws, and that merely by a constructive notice.—(Earl Grey, " There is no question before the House.").—He was aware that there was no question before the House, and only threw out these hints for further consideration. The Earl of ELDON was rather disposed from feeling to support the Bill. But still it was a subject of immense importance, and one which ought to be well considered before the Bill should be allowed to pass. The Bill might very greatly affect the property of tenants in tail, and in terfere with the jurisdiction of Courts of Equity when called upon to protect young men from the consequences of their own indiscretion. Courts of Equity were called upon so to interfere much more frequently than Courts of Law ; and if this jurisdiction were taken away, many im prudent young men would have their prospects for life de stroyed without remedy. The subject required a great deal of consideration. Then, supposing the Bill were to be passed by way of experiment, and its duration to be limited to a short period, it might be worth while to move to have the record of the case of " The King against O'Connell " and others, laid on the table, in order to show how necessary it was, that, when Bills were passed in that way, some provision should be made with respect to pro ceedings commenced, but not terminated before the expira tion of the Acts. Lord PLUNKETT observed, that in some of these Acts clauses d been inserted, providing that where proceed ings wee commenced before the expiration of the Acts, they should be carried on to the conclusion, notwithstand ing the expiration. There was no such clause in the Act to which the Noble and Learned Earl had alluded, and that was a principal reason fur the decision of the Irish Judges. The Earl of ELDON did not find any fault with that decision, but certainly a general rule ought to be adopted with respect to these cases. Lord WYNFORD said, that in England the judgment would be binding on the land notwithstanding the bank. ruptcy. But, as it appeared that the Noble and Learned Lord had thought that some material alterations ought to be made in the Bill, be moved fur the postponement of the third reading till Tuesday. The third reading of the Bill was accordingly fixed for Tuesday. TITHES' COMPOSITION BILL. The Archbishop of CANTERBURY moved that the Tithes' Composition Bill be committed. Lord TEYNIIAM observed, that it was a subject of the greatest importance. The tithe system was one which called for very material alteration and improvement, and the country expected that such an improvement should be made without delay. He was not satisfied that this Bill would answer the purpose. He would not, however, op pose ite going into the Committee ; but unless it under event considerable alterations, he would oppose it on the third reading.—the Bill was than committed. On the first clause being read, Lord WYNFORD moved as an amendment, that the provisions of it should extend to lay impropriators, as well as to ecclesiastical persons. The Archbishop of CANTERBURY expressed his hope, that if this amendment were to be adopted, the Noble and Learned Lord would lend his assistance to get it adopted to the Bill, without injuring its object and progress. Lord WYNFORD promised his assistance either in or out of the House. The Earl of ELDON did not think that the Bill was one which could pass in its present shape. There was no provision made in it for determining, in cases of moduses, whether there was a modus or not ; or whether the moth's, if one had existed, was or was not a legal modus. It sometimes happened that very delicate questions arose, as to whether certain lands were or were not titheable ; and sotnetitnes, persons who had not paid tithe fur their lan Is, were not able to tell the reason why they had paid none; and yet they might bare good right of exemption. A case had occurred in the course of his profe,sional life, where a man pleaded en exemption, but could not tell the reason why he had not paid tithes ; and, after an investigation of six years, it was found that be him self was the owner of the tithes, and that the Ecclesiastical rector had nothing t do wills them. Then there was ne provision made in this Bill for cases where com positions real had been entered into, in which cases lands had been given in lieu of tithes. Those were material defects in the Bill ; and as to a barrister of five years' standing deciding in the cases wi.ich he had mentioned. lie would not be sufficient for the purpose, even although he were a schoolmaster besides--begging pardon of his Noble and Learned Friend the Lord Chancellor.---(The Lord Chancellor bowed.) The person to whom he had alluded, as pleading an exemption for which he could not show the grounds, had found at last that the ancestor under whom he claimed bad purchased the lands from a grantee of Henry VIII., and that the lands hail belonged to a monastery, and were, therefore, exempt from the pay ment of tithes. There was no proper provision in the Bill for settling difficult questions of this kind, and cases of compositions real, where lands bad been gives in lieu of tithes, were in the same predicament. He could not help thinking that the Bill must receive much more con sideration than had yet been bestowed upon it. Tit all its provisions it seemed to be extremely deficient, and unless it were thoroughly recast, it would be impossible for their Lordships to give it their assent. The Archbishop of CANTERBURY said, that if the Noble and Learned Lord opposite had explained to him (the Archbishop) some months ago the ohj-ctions which he had that evening stated to their Lordslaips, lie (the Archbishop) would have been so governed by such an opi nion, that he sh ou ld h ave thrown the Bill into the fire.— (Hear.) He agre e d i n every wor d w i t h t h e N o bl e an d Learned Lord, as tar as 114 (the Archbishop's) d experience in those matters allowed him to form a (Hear.) But in this respect h e w as compelledju from the Noble and Learned Lord—he .coelli nut possibly , see what connexion all that the Learned Lord tad s aid had with the Bill. — ( Hear. ) The only object of the Bill was to provide a means of paying the clergy the value of the tithes which they now receive, different from the mode in which they have hitherto been received. In devising a a ne w mode of paymen t, it was necessar y also to provide new means of enforcing that payment. but it was by no means necessary that, in an act providing fur an assess ment of tithes, there should be an enumeration of the va xious kinds of titheable produce. For his part, lie (the Archbishop) could desire nothing more earnestly d th antl t i h at the Noble and Le arned Lord should devise a mo .e for ut an end t till p settlement of all disputes. If he could differences on the subject of titheable produce, be would confer the greatest benefit upon the country.—(Hear.) As to the duties to be performed by the barrister, be thought a standing of five years was quite sufficient quali fication for the competent discharge of them, as all that he .would be called on to do was to ratify the composition, 1 and to see that it had been made in accordance with the Act. . - Lord ELDON said a few words in explanation, which could not be heard at the Bar. The LORD CHANCELLOR was sure that nothing could be more advantageous to the Bill, or more calculated to secure its completeness, than that the assistance of the Noble and Learned Lord should be given to discover its faults, and to supply its deficiencies. He was sure that if it passed with his assent, it would be free from errors, as he, surely, would allow no fault to escape.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) But he (the Lord Chancellor) did not think that the Bill was liable to the objections alleged against it by his Noble and Learned Friend. In the first place, the Learned Lord had said that the Bill contained no provision for cases in which there bad been a composi tion real. Now, .he (the Lord Chancellor) thought it would be safest on that subject to follow the precedent of the Irish Composition Act, which was so far attended with no difficulty, which was, to make no mention what ever of composition real.—(Hear.) He believed it was not mentioned in the Irish Aet, and if he were mistaken his Noble Friend behind him would correct him.—(Hear, from Lord Plunkett.) The provisions of the Bill for the assessment were so distributive, that they might compre hend all cases that could arise. —(Hear, hear.) It was provided, that when a dispute might arise respecting the assessment of one particular part, then there should be, for that part, a separate assessment. In another clause the case of composition real was comprehended ; for it con tained a provision that where any land had been before exempt from tithe, the Commissioners should have no power to make an assessment, as it was not the inten tion of the Act to give the tithe-owner a better title than he possessed before. The Commissioners should have no power to decide upon disputed claims, all which were, on the contrary, to be referred, after the Act, to the Courts of Law, as was the course followed at present. As to the objection to the qualification of the barrister, looking to the very moderate jurisdiction, he thought that the expe rience of cave years' standing was quite sufficient. He was not prepared to say, however, that there were not defects in the details of the Bill ; on the contrary, he believed that the Most Reverend Prelate who introduced the Bill had himself some alterations to propose.—(Hear.) Lord WYNFORD thought that the Bill was particu larly deficient in its principal enactment, inasmuch as it provided no means of ascertaining who constituted the two-thirds of the tithe-payers ; and yet it was indispen sible to have that ascertained before the first step could he taken towards that composition which was the great object of the Bill. Reference to the poor rates would not, as had been said, be sufficient for that purpose. He thought it would be better to take the majority, say two-thirds, of the parishioners assembled in vestry, as was done under the Irish Tithe Composition Bill.—(Hear, hear.) He thought that the public were deeply indebted to the Most Reverend Relate for having introduced that Bill ; and he (Lord Wynford) knew how much attention the Most Reverend Prelate had bestowed upon the principle of the measure, although his mind was so much occupied with more important matters that he must necessarily leave the preparing of the clauses to others. He (Lord Wynford) submitted to the Committee that the Bill should be referred to a private Committee, if such a proceeding were con sistent with the practice of the House.—(No, no.) He perceived, from the nod of a Noble Friend opposite, that his proposition could not be acted upon. He should, there fore, take the liberty of moving that the Noble Lord on the Woolsack would leave the chair, and report progress to the House : so that before the next siting of the Com mittee, his Noble and Learned Friend beside him, and other Noble Lords, might have time to consider the Bill. Ile made that motion because he was friendly to the prin ciples of the Bill, and he was satisfied that by postponing the Committee, such alterations might be proposed as would render it effective. Lord CARNARVON proposed that the Bill should be printed and re-committed on a future day. Lord ELDON said, that if the further consideration of the Bill were postponed, he would give it his best attention. A conversation then took place, across the table, between the Archbishop of CANTERBURY and Lords ELDON and ABINGDON, which was inaudible at the Bar. After a few words from the Bishop of LONDON, the re-commitment of the Bill was fixed for Monday se'nnight. The Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition from a town in Lancashire, in favour of the Reform Bill.—The House then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, JuLY 21. The House was occupied till Half-past Four with ballot ing for, and swearing in Committees to try the Glasgow and Roxburgh election petitions. Lord MORPETH again called the attention of the House to the statement he had made on the former night respect ing the proceedings of the Leeds and Manchester Railway Bill Committee. The Noble Lord went over again his ac cusation against them, for having decided without hearing evidence, and moved that the matter be referred to a Com mittee of Appeal. Mr. STRICKLAND supported the motion. After a few words from Mr. DENISON and Sir R. FER • Gnaw; the motion of Lord Morpeth was agreed to without a division. The Committee to be appointed on Monday next. DELAY OF THE REFORM BILL. Lord ALTHORP—I rise, in pursuance of a notice I gave yesterday, to make a motion, to enable the Com mittee to make more expeditious progress with the Re form Bill. I am aware that the motion I am about to make is one for which there is no precedent on the Jour nals of the House ; and it will, therefore, be necessary for me to recall to the recollection of the House those special circumstances which, in my opinion, ought to induce the House to agree to the motion. 'My proposition is, that the Order of the Day for the House proceeding with the Committee of the Reform Bill, shall take pre cedence of all public business whatever on those days fur which it is appointed. The grounds on which I make this motion are, that the measure is one which, as all agree, whether they be in favour of, or opposed to, the Bill, is of the most paramount importance of any that was ever under the discussion of the House : and not only is the subject of such importance, Lut it is also of so compli cated a nature that it will necessarily lead to much discus sion, and consumption of tune in the Committee, thus not only forming an exception to all rules in its importance, but also in its details. I do not propose this motion with a view to any unnecessary haste : I rather propose it in order to give plenty of time; but that the measure may not be spread over su large a space as to render it impro bable that it will come to a satisfactory conclusion at last. —9 - lear, hear.) I am aware that what I am proposing will form e novel precedent, and that it will be a prece dent which might be inconvenient on future occasions ; but still I think that ware the same consistency com bined, as are exhibited in the Frecent discussion, it would be a peee.edent proper and unobjectionabie, What are the circumstances? It is a question which interests every part of the couiitri, from one end of it to another ; and I should say, even were its importance only one half what it is, that while it is so deeply interesting to the whole of the population, it would be wise in the House to give np the rest of the business before it, for the purpose of attend ing the more particularly to this—(Hear, hear)—and I also think that the country would have a right to expect this of the prasent House of Commons ; I think that as it is looking forward with breathless impatience to the carrying of this one measure, ia has a right to call on its representatives to postpone all things of minor importance, in order that they might apply their undivided atten tion to this single size. I hare now stated the grounds on which I make this motioo, It is not necessary for me further to i' . 'ipress these grounds co the House ; for if there are any gentlemen who do not think that cir cumstances in any instance cn justify the precedent which we are now about to set, nothing that I ,can say will con vince them to the contrary. But every ope must be aware of the truth of what I have :stated.—(Hear, hear.) Though I,[ shall propose that the Committee on the Re form Bill take precedence of all public business, whether petitions, motions, or tesilers of the day, there are un doubtedly petitions which musk form an exception to the rule, those on the Bill itself, of course, Ling receivable. I should therefare propose, Sir, hiving communicated with you on the subject, and having obtained (as might be ex pected from your readiness to forward all the objects of the House) youe kind consent to take the Chair at three o'clock, as at the coeetnaneement of the Session, and also to sit on Saturday, for the purpose of taking petitions. 1 should propose that such be the arrangement; by which means we shall on Saturdays have time for petitions; and by sneering at three o'clock, we may hope to be able to proceed to the question of Reform at four—(Hear, hear) cannot see that tha t thel s House asking would—and so h ave a b out e i g ht h ours ever y n i g ht for the die cusaion of th e Bill.—(H ear, h ear. ) I n propos in g thi s I do I not think t' gain oinueh -- a ( ( C I e y ers advantage) fo r front varying the su bj ects under discussion ; on the con trary, I think that it will be better able to give its atten tion to this absorbing topic b } O , , variety. The liable L or d c on l d e e n d t e l ring into an y such u tion to the effect of that e m b race d in ha' p proposing a trio- Mr. WYNN had heard the Noble Lo s rd% ech. n deep concern.—(Year, hear.) If the Governmentiotion with power to give effect to this motion (but he thankd God that they had not the power), in what a situation would that House be placed.—(Cheers.) If the King's Mini sters, backed by a majority in that House, were to b e showed to say that for an indefinite time particular busi ness (which was proceeding de die in diem) should always be entitled to precedence over all other public busi ness—if no Member, without their consent, was to be allowed to bring, forward a motion —he should say that that House was abdicating its functions of being the Grand Inquest of the nation.—(Cheers.) He felt that it was only necessary to suggest to the House how imprudent it would be to agree to so dangerous a precedent.—(Hear, hear, hear.) It was proposed by the Noble Lord, that the Reform business should have precedence over all other business; and that it should come forward on certain nights, and have priority, even before the presentation of petition', which was always the first stage of all busi nese. What would be the consequence? What would be the remedy applied ? Why, every person, on the Order of the Day being moved, might move an amendment, and might successfully resist the progress. He would be Sorry that any person should embrace such a course, but he could conceive cases in which a Member might think himself warranted. There was a motion of the Hoe. Member opposite on the state of the poor of Ireland, which he should say was a question more immediately tit.. importan ce —hut would not say of comparatively mo re —hut of more immediate urgency than the Reform Bill. The Hon. Member might think it proper to bring on such i a motion. If the Noble Lord should persist n his m e . tion, ice foresaw that debates would be brought on in a contentious spirit, and in a manner more inconvenient to the House. That course would be found pregnant with evils. What then could be done better ? He was disposed to accede to an understanding or arrangement, by which, without making a positive order, the Reform business might come on first. If his Noble Friend would allow him to suggest, that an understanding of this kind would be better than an order, because an understanding could at any time, in a ease of urgency, be set aside, and no precedent would be made. If they were to establish such a precedent, it might be used by an overbearing ma jority to prevent the business of the House coming on, and put a stop to the most important and urgent matters. It might be used, for example, to prevent the House acting on that order, which said that a Committee of Supply should precede other business on certain nights, and then stop the most important business. lle knew that the re dress of grievances was the duty of the House before even granting the supplies. If the House allowed such an or der to pass, it might place a power in the hands of the Ministry to procure the supplies, and then to prorogue the House,. and take away from a minority the means of even insuring a discussion, or taking into consideration any business whatever. He would urge it on his Noble Friend —he would urge it on the Members of the Government— that it would be much better to make an arrangement than to press the motion. He would remind them, that there was no occasion for the order, because, since the question of Reform came on this Session, not the slightest attempt had been made to forward any motion to delay the Reform Bill. It would be infinitely better to depend on the incli nation of the House, than to establish an order of which no man living could foresee the consequences, or have any idea of the danger attending it. It might be said he was tenacious of the precedents, but he had sat for thirty years in that Ilouse, and he bad seen many individuals live to regret the precedents they had e stablished to suit a parti cular occasion, and which often led to consequences of which the mover had no idea.—(Hear, hear.) Lord ALTHORP was aware that the question proposed might produce great inconvenience ; but, under the par ticular circumstances of the case, he theeight that course necessary. His only object was, to ensure the House going into a Committee on the Reform Bill, at an early hour. If, however, he thought that this object could be obtained by the suggestion of his Right Hon. Friend, he for one should be disposed to agree to that suggestion, if he found the House ready to come to such an understand ing. He was aware that what his Right Hon. Friend had stated was correct—that no gentleman had interfered with notices to stop the Reform Bill ; but there had been other discussions which prevented it being brought on till six or seven o'clock. If he found the House ready to come to an understanding, that the discussion on the Reform ques tion should always come on at a certain hour, he should be ready to withdraw his motion. At the same time he felt that he was bound to propose it, because it was urgent that some step should be taken. Mr. GOULBURN objected to the motion, that it would either hand over the House bound hand and foot into the power of the Ministers, or it would beget most unseemly conflicts every day on the motion for going into a Committee. It would not take from the Members their power to move an adjourntnent, or to bring forward any matter of importance as an amendment to the Order of the Day, as was frequently done last Session by the Right Hon. Baronet, the First Lord of the Admiralty, and thus provoke a debate on any question that from its merits ought to have a separate and distinct consideration. He hoped that the understanding would be preferred to the order ; and, in that case, he for one should offer no ob stacle to the arrangement. Lord MILTON admitted that the order might be preg. nant with inconvenience, and if its object could be other wise attained his Noble Friend would elo well to adopt the suggestion which bad been thrown out. At the same time it was necessary that something should be done to give satisfaction to the country, and get through the busi ness, which might be done by an understanding that the Reform measure should, on the days, appointed for dis cussing it, take precedence of all other questions. Mr. HUNT had a motion standing for the 28th, on the subject of the Corn Laws, which he thought of quite as much consequence as the Reform Bill.—(A laugh.) If the Hon. Member who laughed was living on half a belly. ful, he would laugh on the other side of his m0uth...... (Great laughter.) Ile thought his motion of great con. sequence. He did not wish to throw any impediments in the way of the Reform Bill, but he wished, if he were not to bring forward his motion, that he should be bound by an order of the House, rather than trust to its dis cretion.—(Hear, hear.) He recommended the gentle men on his side, as they had no chance of success, to give up their opposition to the Bill, and allow the Ministers to pass the Bill on their responsibility. The public began to look with a little suspicion on the subject. They thought there was some tampering with—some getting up of sham debates—or fighting in muffled gloves ; and he would recommend that this sort of opposition be with drawn. He would rather the House should meet at three o'clock ; and, after sitting eight or nine hours, they would then have a chance of getting home and to bed about the hour that the thieves came abroad.—(A laugh.) Sir ROBERT PEEL was satisfied, that if the Noble Lord would only trust to his own plain and unbiassed judgment, lie would find more facilities for carrying for ward the measure, than by attending to the recommenda tions of the newspapers, and considering their suggestions. --(Loud and continued cheers.) Let the Noble Lord act on his own judgment, and disregard their advice—treat ing with indifference and contempt, as he (Sir Robert Peel) did, the shameful menaces by which it WAS at tempted to deter Members of that House from performing their duty.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord bad trusted the House, and what had been the consequence ? A dispo sition to throw no obstacles in his way, which bad gone so far that even petitions had not been presented, notices of motion had been waived, and no desire shown to delay the proceedings of the House. If they were told that they were to surrender their judgment, and not examine into the details of a measure that was to give a new Con stitution to the country, to that he could not agree, and of such a proceeding he entirely disapproved. That was not treating the important subject as it deserved ; but any party who should propose measures fur the purposes of delay, would find them recoil on the proposers. At the saint time the subject should be fully and fairly consi dered. There were already several notices given of mo tions for amendments of parts of the Bill; there were at least 16 such notices : two of these had been given by the Noble Lord (Lord Milton). As 10 out of these ' 16 notices had been given by gentlemen who voted for the second reading pf the pill, who thought it right that the subject should be brought under the consideration of the House under the same aspect as it appeared to them ; if out of those sixteen, ten were given by gentlemen who were friendly to the prin ciple of time Bill, was it fair—was it just to impute to those who brought forward amendments, and who were not friendly to the Bill, a motive to delay it?-- It was said that the Bill would be defeated by delay. What was the meaning of that ? Hid they not a ins' jority to support the Bill ? If it was meant that the ippetite for Reform would be abated, that would be due to the fair inguence of reason, and nothing else. If the public should become as weary of the discussion as the House was—if they should look fu: some other topic 01 interest, some other cause of excitement, of what were to be the consequence of delay, it allowed there was ground to doubt if the clamour for Reform was produced by the evils of the system, and gave ground to believe that it would die away before the voice of reason. He woul , d do his best, however, to facilitate the object of the Nehie Lord, if the Noble Lord was disposed to dispense with the order, and trust to an amicable understanding. Such a one had taken place last Session, and under it they had begun the private business at three o'clock , and the public business at five, and he thought an amicable understand ing at present would be better than an order. Besides, an order could not be efficacious, as the Members might claim their right to bring forward any subject, or to pre sent petitions, when the motion was for going into the question of Reform. Ile was sure that if the order were withdrawn, and an understanding agreed to, that would be adhered to. Lord ALTHORP, after the speeches of the two Right lion. Gentlemen, should be ready to withdraw his motion, on the House coming to an understanding that the Reform Bill should go into a Committee every night on which it was to be discussed, at four o'clock.—(Cries of " no, no !" and " five o'clock.") He would agree then to five o'clock. It was therefore arranged, that it should be an under standing that the Reform Bill should come on every evening at five o'clock, when it stood fur discussion, and the subject dropped. COURT OF ADMIRALTY, IRELAND. On the motion of Sir JOHN NEWPORT, returns were ordered of the number of causes tried in the Court of Admiralty in Ireland, since August I, 1830 ; of the number of causes set down for hearing, and bow they were disposed of; and also the number of days the Court ear. CASE OF MR. BINGHAM BARING. Colonel EVANS rose, for the purpose of bringing for ward the motion of which he bad given notice, and he meant to do eo with the greatest brevity. He had taken lip tlie matter from a sense of duty, and not from a desire to attack any individual. It was not, indeed, a c.t , e that concerned individuals, but the exercise of magisterial au- thority. He knew nothing of the subject hilt what he had learnt from the public papers ; and all he wished the House to grant was information. He wished to have the information that was laid before the magistrates of Winches ter, which led to taking up Mr. and Mrs. Deacle six miles from Winchester. He wished for the depositions on which the warrants had been made out, and which four or five Magistrates attended to carry into execution. The only documents from which he derived his information was an authorised statement in the public Papers of the trial, and an ex-parte defence which bad been published by Mr. Bingham Baring. Ile was not disposed to enter into dis cussion, but merely to ask for information. He would show what was the character of the person arrested by quoting the evidence of Mr. Rogers. Mr. Rogers was a Clergyman, and he stated " that he had known the plaintiff several years, and bad seen the testimonials he had received at College ; his father was a most respectable man." He would also quote a short passage from the summing up of the Judge. " His Lordship could not help remarking that the handcuffing was, to say the least of it, a very harsh proceeding towards a lady and gentleman who had been perfectly civil and quiet, and had offered no resistance, and whose station in life was that of a gentleman—the son of a Clergyman of the Church of England." He had read these things with sorrow, and he was obliged to say that his sorrow was not much assuaged by the defence which had been published. Mr. B. Baring had admitted " that no attempt at escape was at any time made by Mr. Deacle ; and though the state of the country rendered caution neces • nary, his conduct throughout was orderly and subtitle sive." Yet this gentleman (who was quiet, orderly, and submissive) and his wife were taken away with un wonted violence, and a verdict was given in their favour. Mr. Bingham Baring said, " I come now to the ma terial parts of the charges against me, which arc sub atantiall) three. Ist, That I ordered the constable to hand-bolt the prisoners ; 2d, That I dragged Mrs. Deacle personally by the body, her head hang ing on one side of me and her feet on the other, through te mud to the cart ; and 3d, that I struck Mr. Deacle while in the cart, on the road to Winchester." Excepting the blow, Mr. Baring denied the charge, and proposed to prove his statement, but he bad not given any reason to satisfy the public that he should be able to deny having given tlie blow. This trial had created a strong ferment _in that part of the county where it had occurred, and the House should, he thought, inquire into this abuse of magisterial authority. In London, also, this trial had excited a considerable feel ing. Two trials had taken place, and no evidence had been adduced on the first against the Deacles. If the papers far which he moved should remove the impression he at present entertained, he should be very glad ; if they did not, he should think it necessary to follow up his mo tion by moving an humble address to his Majesty to remove Mr. B. Baring from the Commission. The Hon. Member concluded by an address to his Majesty, for a copy of the indict:rent in the prosecution against Mr. and Mrs. Deacle; also, a copy of the record in the cause Deacle versus Bingham Baring, with the result thereof, respec tively, as the same were tried at Winchester; also for copies of the Judges' notes taken upon these trials. 'Mr. F. BARING was understood to second the motion. The Hon. Member spoke from under the gallery, and was imperfectly beard. He was supposed to say, that the cha racter of a gentleman was at stake, and he was gratified at the opportunity of meeting the accusation. The Hon. Member had referred to the indignation excited by the statements in the public Papers, and certainly these state ments were calculated to excite indignation, and the in. dignation would be perfectly justified if the facts were as stated in the public Papers. In making the House acquainted with the real facts of the case, he would beg leave to recall to the attention of the House to the state of the country in which the transaction occurred. In the month of November there was a great disturbance in Hampshire. He himself was called from another and a peaceable part of the country to a scene of riot and dis. order. At that time the whole country was full of mobs, and different classes of people were going about in great numbers within a few miles of Winchester. The Hon. Member read a list of several mobs of 700, of 1,000, of 100, of 400, and of 600, which were going about on the days immediately preceding the day on which Mr. Deacle was arrested. That would show the House the state of the county of Hants at that time. A general panic prevailed, and it was stated that it was necessary to act with energy ; that it was necessary that the police of the county should be diligent and exceed ingly watchful. He wished also to remind the House of what was said at that time of the Magistrates They were accused of negligence—of not personally appearing, to carry into execution the necessary measures, and they were warned not to shun their duties.—(Hear.) If they acted firmly they were told they could repress the riots, whereas, if they avoided encountering them, they would only encourage disorder. He would then read to the House the deposition on which the warrants against Mr. and Mrs. Deacle had been issued. The Hon. Member accordingly read the deposition of the bailiff of the Earl of Northesk, describing the proceedings of a large snob of up wards of 300 persons, who came to his house on the 23d of November, and extorted Irons him a considerable suns of money, and destroyed a winnowing machine. In the midst of the crowd, when at a small distance, he saw a female on horseback, and he was told that it was Mrs. Deacle. It was also said the witness deposed that Mr. Deacle was there. The female looked on while the mob was breaking the machine ; she eame with the snob, and went away with the snob. The Hon. Member then proceeded to quote the deposition of M r. Francis Wri g ht Clerk, one of the defendants. He said, this gentleman deposed to having seen a mob on the 23d, with a lad y on horse back in the midst of them. This party extorted money to the amount, as one of the men informed him, of 101., and the lady was riding in front of them. A person told him that this lady was Mrs. Deacle. One of the party asked him for 20s. The lady, we understood, asked him if there were any soldiers in the neighbourhood. There were two parties, and Mrs. Deacle rode from one to another. He had this conversation with her, but no more. The lion. Member then said, he bad another paper, which was not the original deposition, but a copy, which he believed was correct, and would read to the House. The Hon. Member then read another deposition, of a per 0R whose name we could not catch, in which it was stated that Mr. Deacle was with the mob on the 24th of Nov., when they collected money ; that he stopped behind in a lane w hile the mob went forward, at one place, to a farmer's house ; and that Mrs. Deacle was also present. In another deposition which the Hon. Member read, it was stated that Deacle was present with Boyce and others when the mob broke machines and demanded money, and that a woman was there riding backwards and forwards on horse back, whom be believed to be Mrs. Deacle. Having thus stated the subject of the depositions made before the Magistrates, it might be also necessary to say, that there was a great deal of oral evidence to the same effect, which of course had its influence on the minds of the Magistrates who s igned the warrant for arresting the Deacles. Of these Magistrates, however, he himself was .not one. He w as me rely a party with some of his friends concerned i n t h e exec ution of it. He had, however, thought it right to tro uble them by reading the depositions at len gt h , i n or d e r that the House might comprehend und er w h at impressions the Ma g i s trate s p roc eeded to execute th e hese they per ha so i l l is,, and wheth er i t could be fairly grossly out-stepped th e b o unds of their duty, invaded the privacy o f d omestic life, and wantonly insulted a modest and retiri ng woman, warrant iy against said that when it became necessary to take legal notice of the pro. reed i ng , o f a person, who employed the influence of her „ x and the power of her station to ruin the poor and the ignorant who lived in her immediate neighbourhood. — (Heir, hear.) A good deal had been said of the station of the Deacles.—(Hear, hear.) lie was willing to allow that they were much above the ordinary condition of the farmers in that part of the country; be was quite willing to admit that their station was much above the class of throe who bad been charged with the proceedings which ss ere unhappily at that time going on in this part of the county. He had seen, with pain and with sorrow, the ignorant and deluded labourer 'guilty of acts which re quired the immediate interposition of the strong arm of the law ; hut when he found a person like Mr. Deacle, a man above the common rank of farmers, employing his in fluence to continue the offences of which the poor labourers had been guilty—inciting them to frame-breaking, en couraging them to demand the reduction area and tithes, and accompanying them to demand money, hut stopping at the end of the lanes while his assistants went forward to the houses—(Hear, hear)—when he saw all this, he thought that such a person was deserving of the immediate attention of the Magistracy, and that it was a m a tt er o f policy as much as of justice to remove him from the scene of his offences, and to make him amenable as speedily as possible at the bar of public justice.—(Hear, hear.) That was the feeling of the Magistracy. It was with that view the arrest took place under the circum stances which have been described; and he was bound to say, that after the execution of the warrant against the Deacles, they heard no more of any outrages in that part of the country.—(Loud cheers.) He might here observe, with respect to the facts stated in the depositions, that it was of no consequence whether they were or were not afterwards fully borne out on the trials. They were stated on oath in the informations be fore the Magistrates, and on that they were bound to act, and to apprehend the accused.—(Hear, hear.) He now proceeded to the three charges which were preferred against his relation and the other Magistrates, and which formed the subject of the evidence on the trial. The warrant was put into the hand, of a constable named Lewington, who prof e ssed to be acquainted with the persons of the accused ; and he (Mr. Baring) might here say, tkat he believed it was the very first arrest in that part of the country which had been up to that time attempted without the assistance of the military.—(Hear, hear.) On the trial this person is represented to have said, that he told the Magistrate be required no assistance, and that he was not aware of the intention of the gentlemen to accompany him. Now, he (Mr. Baring) could state on his oatim, that Lewington told him Mr. Deacle was not a person to he taken easily.—(Hear.) The words were so remarkable, that they made an impression on his mind, anti he was positive on the point that they were used. He asked Lewington what he meant by that--did he mean to say that Deacle would resist ? And Lewington answered, that he believed lie would ; and that he must have assist ance.—(Hear.) He (Mr. Baring) then told Lewington that a party of gentlemen would accompany him, and de sired him to get a light spring cart for the purpose of con veying the prisoners to Winchester. With regard to this cart, of which so much has been said, it was obvious that any other and speedier method of conveyance would have been more agreeable to those who had such a disagreeable duty to perform ; but they conceived that in that part of the country, which, it should be understoood, is rather wild and retired, no other conveyance could have well escaped notice. —(Hear, hear.) He was convinced, indeed, that if they attempted to bring the prisoners away from their own house in a post-chaise, the horses would have been surrounded and the signals spread, that the whole popu lation would have been up in arms, and that it would have been impossible to avoid the risk of a rescue.—(Hear, hear.) It was but the day before the execution of this warrant that a military extort was necessary to convey the prisoners from Romney to Winchester ; and be begged again to observe, that no warrant had been executed before without the assistance of the military.—(Bear, hear.) He thought it right also to remind the House, before he proceeded further, that he stood before them in some mea sure as a witness in favour of his relation, Mr. Bingham Baring, who had been so much censured for the part he took in those transactions, and whose conduct he might add, hail been so grossly calumaiated.—(Hear, hear.) He proceeded now to speak more distinctly of the three charges brought against his 'elation, and he was entitled to do so with more confidence, as he himself had been acquitted of all participation in them by the verdict of a Jury.— In the first place, then, the constable, Lewington, swore on that trial, that Mr. Bingham Baring rode up, came into the house, and said, " Constable, do your duty ; hand bolt them ;" and he added that he (Mr. F. Baring) and another gentleman, were present at the same time. It should he here observed, that he did not intend to enter minutely into all the evidence in his possession, because, if he was to state all the facts, he might surrender all chance of justice which was yet left to his relation in a future examination of the case.—(Hear.) He was ready now, however, to say most distinctly, that Mr. B. Baring did not enter the room as the constable stated— (Cheers)—that no words such as those mentioned could have been used by Mr. B. Baring, and that it was impos sible he could have given such an order as the witness de scribed, because be had not even seen the Deacles until after they were confined with the hand-bolts and released. —(Hear, hear.) The person who gave the order he would not at that moment mention, nor say more than that he accompanied them to identify the prisoner. After the handcuffs were removed, and when Deacle was taken to the cart, it was sworn that Mr. Bingham Baring caught I Mrs. Deacle in his arms and dragged her through the mud, with her head and feet hanging close to the ground. Now he (Mr. F. Baring) was ready to state on his oath that the constable was totally mistaken with respect to this part of the case.—( Hear.) He was himself the person who carried Mrs. Deacle, and he would state now the whole of the circumstances connected with that part of the transac tion. They had waited some time for Mrs. Deacle's bon net aed cloak, but on finding that Mr. Deacle had been taken to the cart he offered his hand to Mrs. Deacle, and prepared t,, follow Mr. Bingham Baring, having accom panied those who were with Mr. Deacle. Mrs. Deacle, on the way, complained of the mud through which it was necessary to pass, and he offered to lift her over a part of the path which, as it is usual in farm-yards, was wet and dirty.—(Hear, and a laugh.) He was almost ashamed to enter into such details.—(Hear, hear.) The lady said she was afraid he would find her very heavy..--(Hear, and a laugh.) He told her, he did not recollect in what terms, that he believed he should be able to carry her in safety ; and he then took her in his arms in the least familiar manner that was possible, and carried her, with all the respect due to her sex and station, about half a dozen paces, and then led her to the cart.—(Hear, hear.) On the way the servant joined them with Mrs. Deacle's bonnet and cloak, and she was then placed in the ve hicle. This fact he could prove on time oaths of the whole of those gentlemen who had been made co defendants with him in the action; and, as he thought he had satisfied time House that the constable was utterly mis taken with respect to persons, he might perhaps be allowed to suppose that he was a little mistaken with respect to the manner in which he represented Mrs. Deacle to have been treated.—(Cheers.) He now came to another por tion of the case. Mrs. Deacle, it was true, did complain of time vehicle in which she was to be conveyed, and of the difficulty of getting into it, and he (Mr. Baring) offered her his knee as a step when she ascended. It should be observed that Mr. B. Baring was present at this time, but that he took no part in the arrangements. He came now to the question raised on the refusal of the horse to Mrs. Deacle. It should be recollected that when they reached the house of Mrs. Deacle, they found a man at the door with a gun in his hand, and that Mr. Baring took it from him ; knowing this, and sensible that the people in the neigh bourhood were in a state of great excitement, and having seen several persons lum king about, they were naturally anxious, under the peculiar circumstances of time case, to get their prisoners away as quietly as possible; and when it is con sidered that they must have•waited till this horse was sent for and saddled, with all the chances of the neighkourbood being raised in the mean time, it will not excite surprise that they did not think themselves justified in allowing such a delay.—(Hear.) The horse was therefore re fused ; but he could say, on his oath, not harshly or offen sively.—(Hear.) Front all they had seen, amid from their experience of the state of the country, they felt that if a rescue was attempted it would probably occasion much bloodshed, and they therefore thought, as Magistrates en trusted with the execution of an important duty, that it was not a time to listen to small and unimportant objec tions.—(Cheers.) It was said, however, he admitted that Mrs. Deacle was an invalid, and nut strong enough to bear the motion of the cart. The circumstances of which he spoke took place at two o'clock in the day, and when they called to mind the fact sworn to in the depositions that this lady had been at four o'clock on time preceding day riding at time head of a body of labourers and smiling on them while they were engaged in the offence of machine break ing,n he thought they might be pardoned for be l ieving that she could not be in such a state of bodily weakness and ill health as was th e n repm esented to them. The vehicle was a light market cart, 'Ai Deacle l t a li n e e j , ol a ti p n l g a o ; e a t o t f l m e a t n i t i e e n rs t she d n i r d o , f a l o t v i: u ll y ral w emire in a complained ow the arr of fur a rescue. They had passed on time road a serv ant of Deacl e 's, who had set out before them, and at one part of it they saw three men standing with a gate unimung, which, if they had thrown in their way, would have completely obstructed them for a time, and in the then agitated state of the country they might not unreasonably expect an attempt at rescue, particularly as the road went round a village, from which even a small ob structed their pa timer a quick pace, but that it was not at an y violent rate d by the fact that the two constables wl.o w e re ai;e. number T The o y f , men e r fi n , i r g e l: t did easily g o on liav a e t r- was prove on foot kept up with them without any difficulty.—(Hear, Lear.) But when they acme to the open road, they went , at a slower pace, and there they obtained a post-chaise, in which the prisoners were conveyed to Winchester. As to the alleged blow by Mr. 13inghato Baring, he was not able to speak farther than this, that he saw nothing of it. There was, however, a gentleman present who could state that he saw Mr. Deacle raise his hand to catch hold of the reins, and Mr. Bingham Baring at the same time raised his stick, and touching him gently with it, said " Let the reins alone, Sir ;" but this gentleman was made a co-de fendant, and of course had no opportunity of stating the fact on the trial ; but for his part he (Mr. F. Baring) saw no blow, or anything like a blow, or any temper that evinced even the slightest disposition to inflict a blow on the part of Mr. B. Baring.—(Hear, hear.) He might also add, that on his way to Winchester he spoke frequently to Mr. Deacle, and he never made any complaint that he had received a blow. —(Hear, hear.) Nor did he (Mr. F. Baring) ever hear anything on that subject until he re ceived a letter frow. the attorney for the plaintiff, stating that he was going to bring an action. Having stated thus much of matters which had come within his own know ledge, he would ask, was the evidence of the constable sufficient to warrant such a colour as had been given to the whole transaction ? He (Mr. F. Baring) had given his statement of the facts exactly as they occurred, with only the exception that he might, as he had said, go into more minute details, as to many minor particulars, but he did not think it would be fair to his friend to put other parties in possession of matters that had better be brought forward before the tribunal which may have to investigate them. He now begged to thank the House for the patience with which it had heard him, and to express his gratitude to the Honourable Member who brought forward this motion for the opportunity he had given him of appearing before the House as a witness in behalf of his friend and relation. He had been reared up with his Hon. Friend for years, and he knew him, and from his intimate knowledge of his disposition and habits, he would say that he was the last man in the world who would be capable of such conduct as bad been imputed to him in this instance.—(An Hon• Member here intimated a desire to know why Mr. Deane had not been examined at the trial ?) He was glad of the opportunity which the Hon. Member had given him of noticing that fact, which would otherwise have eseaped his attention. Mr. Deane was not examined. He saw no blow given; and even if it had been, he could not have seen it, for he almost immediately left the cart when the prisoners got in, and went on to Winchester to order a post-chaise. He could not, therefore, be called upon to disprove an alleged fact of which he could have no know ledge. But the House were aware that Counsel sometimes, looking to the effect of a powerful reply, were apt to throw a witness overboard. If the same investigation were to be gone into again, there was not an individual in any way connected with the transaction, whom he and Mr. Bingham Baring would not be most ready to put into the witness box. But the misfortune of the case was, that all the principal parties who could speak to the facts as they occurred at Deacle's house and ou the road, were made defendants, and thus precluded from making the case known as it occurred. The Hon. Member concludes by again thanking the House for the patience with which it had heard him. Mr. Serjeant WILDE, having beenengaged in assisting • the Attorney-General in conducting the prosecutions at the late special commission in Hampshire, hoped he should be excused if he stated a few of the circumstances which had come to his knowledge as some of the matters con nected with this charge. Of the manner in which the warrant in this case was executed lee knew nothing, but probably something might be inferred as to that mat'er from the circumstances he was about to state. It had become a part of his duty to investigate the information § that had been prepared, in order to ascertain who were the instigators of the proceedings for which so many were t° be placed on their trial. In the course of those investi gations, he found that a certain number of farmers had met together and drawn up a paper addressed to landlords an d clergymen, for the purpose of inducing them to lower their rents and tithes. At thi s mee ti ng t h ere were se veral whose names were stated, and amongst others this Mr. Deacle and a man named Boyce. So o n after this, some of • the same parties met again, attended by a c o nsiderald e number of labourers, who pressed others to join ; so tha t , at last, they became formidable in numbers, and proceede d to the houses of several gentlemen in the neighbour' hood, at first insisting that the paper for lowering rents and tithes should be signed, then deman dn money, and also destroying machinery. A part kind, amounting to 400 or 600, went to the Miss Long, armed with hamm e r s , hat c hets, clubs, a nd other kinds of w ea p ons , an d one o f t h e pers ons in the crowd called out that th e p a p er s h ou ld b e s i gne d. The lady having signed it, B o y ce ( or B oys ,) w h o was prese nt' retired to the rear of th e c row d w h ere D eac l e was wa iting. Boyce was a farme r i n i n d epen d ent c i rcumstances. The mob then demanded 151., b u t wen t away a f ter h av i n g oh' tamed Si. From th a t pl ace th e y wen t a b ou t destroyiug, house of t h g f machinery, and obtaining mo ne y by thre a ts o f violence to several places. Having found that some of the farmer ° had set the example of breaking their own machinery, th e t labourers felt themselve justified as it were in going taboo, to destroy the machinery of others, and there was no doulu that but for the encouragement they had received fro ° the farmers, they would never have proceeded to such er treme acts of violence. Boyce, who took so prominent .s part in the proceedings, was tried, and acquitt e d, as muc h to his astonishment as he believed it was to that of evert man who heard the evidence. He had every respect fu e the jury who tried him, but he owned he was not able t ° account fur the acquittal, except it were that it was pro . duced in a great degree by sympathy for the state of li ie in which he was placed. Finding the acquittal, wrote to the Attorney-General, who was in the other court, stating the fact of the acquittal, and stated his opt' nion, that a man whom he believed to have been mainlY instrumental in fomenting much of the riot and die order which bad occurred in the county should not D e allowed to escape, as there were other indietmen t6 against him. In this the Attorney-General coneurrA and by his advice, Boyce was brousht before anoth er jury at the other Court, and on nearly the same evidenc e ' but applying to another cave, was convicted,--not, boo" ever, of the capital charge, for he escaped that by a ta r e technicality, as Miss Long, the lady from whom the tu ° ' ney was taken, did not see him at the moment it was giv e° by her butler. He was, however, sentenced to trove portation. Looking at the informations against Deacl' at his station in life, and the part he was described t° have tak en i n t h ese procee di ngs, h e t h oug h t t h at h e ou gh , to be prosecuted, and in this the Attorney• General co d eurred ; and as the prosecution was intended, he to e great ca u ti on i n exam i n i ng w i tneses i n other cases i n o rder to prevent the name of the Deacles from transpiring, . tlm their case might be in no way prejudiced : that the pro§ e ' cution had not been gone i nto , h e cou ld on l y attr ib u te t a . the speedy pacification of th e county w hi c h followed the first steps taken to bri ng th e gu il ty part i es to j ust i ce , sh j , this was in a great degree owing to the prompt and vet gorous exertions of thos e ver y gent l emen whose conch ) formed the subject o f t h e present disettssion.—(Cheer d " Indeed, he would sa y th a t t h e su dd en restorat i on o f th e quiet of that part o f th e coun t ry was a l mos t m i ra culou s ' o If there was any ha rs h ness i n th e s t e p s taken by th e y I active Magistrates in the execution of their duty, be shoh, i j regret it. Of that he knew nothing ; but this he know, that the case was one which required prompt s i P e , vigorous exertion. Whether they had e x c e e d e d the str ld bounds of law, he could not state ; but this he cu d ,, 4 state, that as all the parties who were made defend were men of ample fortune, sufficient damages cc u o have been recovered from any one ; and if truth tie ~„ the object, they would not hav e b een j o i ne d as r o t defendants. But those in the pr o f ess i on kn e w ° ti t where parties were thus joined, and all evidence 1. 13 e out, the case could be only considered as exports. ,ts parties were in some r es p ec t ta k en b y eurpt i se as to 1)11,e of the evidence; and if t h at s h ou ld b e ma d e out to t o satisfaction of the superior Court, a new trial might 0 given : it would then be better to wait until that known before the House proceeded any farther with t case. As to calling for the notes of the Judge, he did suppose the House would be ready to accede to it. o t were the J u d ge ' s pr i vate notes, an d t h ere wou ld be g'e,,e difficulty in pro d uc i ng t h em. A s t hi s was no t a where a party was selected for any private motives, e v t e b e allowance should be nude fCli those who acted i° ' it honest di sc h arge o f t h e i r d uty . A not h er o bj ect i on to t o f motion was, the effect it might have on any future ac t ° 1 Magistrates. If ever any similar circumstances shf ba t occur, which be hoped would not b e th e case , b e t rus ted I c h Magistrates, instead of being warned by the obloquy sr ve had been thrown on these gentlemen, should rather i it stimulated to carry int o f orce the law, which, whitepc commanded respect, also inspired terror. He hoped Ai d Magistrates would not h e deteered from doing then doll' by the tnisrepresentation s that had gone forth in this a dt In conclusion, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman observer that though h e regretted that the lady in this case tt 7io have been lift e d over the mud, or carried to the cart, °,OO it, a little more quickly than was agreeable, still by r a nd say that lie was gl a d th at t h e resu l t o f t h ese p ror°P , t o o' active steps i n apprehend i ng those against whom jai' u l t s, tions were laid, had succeeded in putting down ti which, th oug h they had not been unattended with loss t iert might hav e been attended with a still greater lose, 0 1 , they had not b een so, they owel to the great act. IP tboge opinic