The Sun. — London, England, 1830-03-23 00:00:00

were the foundation of decrees partaking of the same want of brevity. The Commissioners had very wisely stated that some course of this kind must be pursued in the first instance, and other changes could be made as they appeared by circumstances to be required. When he stated that an additional Judge ought to be appointed for the Court of Chancery, he begged to add that that appointment would not entail any fresh expence upon the p'ablic, and it was very gratifying to him to be able to give this assurance. There was a large fund in the Court of Chancery which he could not liken to anything better than to unclaimed dividends; its first formation took place about a century ago ; and it had now accumulated to such a degree as to produce an income of 50,0001. or 60,000/. a year ; part of it had been applied to the building of new offices, and part to the salaries of the Vice-Chancellor, Masters, Regis trars, &c. ; but there was still a clear surplus of nearly 30,000/. .a year applicable to any purpose. He proposed that the new Judge should be paid out of this fund. What he had said of the Masters would apply also to the Regis trars. who had to draw up decrees. It was material that this duty should be discharged quickly, and the Commis sioners had suggested the expediency of appointing two new Registrars. He had prepared a bill for that purpose, and the two new Registrars would be no expence to the public, for the fees of the four Registrars would be divided among six. The House would perceive, therefore, that lie had strength to hear and decide cases, and that he had car ried into effect some of the most important recommenda- tions of the Commissioners, but tLere was another proceed- ing connected with the Masters' offices, which it was his intention to adopt. The Masters had told him that the book ordered to be kept by the Commissioners of the his tory and progress of causes, had been attended with the most salutary consequences ; and he proposed, in addition, that at the end of every six months a return should be made to the Lord Chancellor of all cases on which no reports had yet been made. The Lord Chancellor would thus be furnished with the means of inquiry, and, in case of necessity, in formation might be given to the parties themselves. There was another subject connected with the jurisdiction of the Court of Chancery to which it was necessary for him to advert—he referred to Lunacies. It was supposed that commissions of lunacy were necessarily attended with great expense : the fact was, that in general the expence of such a commission was very trifling, although there had been cases where the costs were most enormous. He re ferred particularly to the cases of Lord Portsmouth, Mr. Davies, and of a gentleman of the name of Bowles; in the county of Leicester. A Bill had been brought into the other House to remedy this evil, enabling the Lord Chan cellor to issue a Commission to a Judge, before whom the inquiry was to take place. He was persuaded that such a • measure was altogether unnecessary, as the Lord Chancel lor already possessed the power thus intended to be con ferred, and instances of his directing commissions to the Chief Baron and to the Attorney-General were to be found as far back as the reign of Henry VIII. It might be wise and prudent to exert this power in future, and the costs might thus be considerably reduced. The chief ex pence arose from the attendance of witnesses, and it would he in the power of a Judge who was in the habit of pre siding at nisi pries, to shorten the inquiry when he found that it bad proceeded a sufficient length to arrive at the truth and justice of the case. The Bill, therefore, intended to be brought into the other House was wholly needless ; and he believed that he had persuaded the Honourable Member that it was so. One other subject remained—that of bankruptcy. He had over and over again given his attention to it ; and as far as related to the metropolis (for he confined his observations to that), he thought that it could not be placed in better hands, or upon a better footing than at present. The business of the Commissioners of Bankrupts fluctuated enormously— sometimes it was trifling, and sometimes burdensome, and the tribunal was well calculated for the purpose, as it met both extremes. He had also made diligent and anxious inquiry as to the mariner in which the Commissioners executed their duties, and the best test was the number of appeals from their decisions, and the number of rever sals. Considering the number of cases, it seemed to him quite surprising how few was the number of appeals, and still fewer were the reversals where a decision was come to contrary to that of the Commissioners upon the same state of facts. He proposed, nevertheless, to diminish the expence in various particulars, into the details of which he could not now conveniently enter. He also intended to enlarge the jurisdiction of the Commissioners of the me tropolis ; at present it extended for forty miles round London, but he wished to extend it to eighty miles ; and with the present improvements in travel ling, SO miles now were, perhaps, not more than 40 miles when the institution first took place. In the time of Lord Rosslyn, commissions were established in some of the great commercial cities and towns of the king dom ; why that plan had been abandoned he did not know, unless it were from a fear of the imputation of a desire to increase the patronage of the Great Seal. No man, how ever, ought to be deterred from the discharge of an im portant duty by any such apprehension, and he therefore proposed that the Lord Chancellor should exercise the power of establishing such commissions. At the same time, his patronage would not be increased, as the total number of Commissioners would remain as at present. He was quite sure that effective service would be done if these suggestions were pursued. He had thus taken the - liberty of going through the whole course of the improve ments contemplated by Ministers. Some were already matured, some had almost arrived at maturity, and others must wait for a more distant period before they were com pleted. e attention of the Government had been per severingly directed to the subject : they were anxious only to du good by diminishing expence, and by increasing pre cision and certainty ; and if the House concurred in their recommendations, it would be a great gratification to him personally, and to those who had co-operated with him. He concluded by moving the first reading of a Bill to faci litate the administration of justice in the Superior Courts of Westminster. The 13i11 was accordingly read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time. The LORD CHANCELLOR added, that the Real Property Commissioners bad yet made no report : they bad, indeed, delivered in a partial report regarding some special tenures ; but the inquiry was by no means com pleted.—Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS-(LAST NIGHT.) Lord KILLEEN took the oaths and his seat for the county of Meath. The SPEAKER announced that he had received from the Hanaper Office, Dublin, a petition against the return of Lord George Beresford for the county of Waterford.— Ordered to be taken into consideration on the 27th of Apri'. Mr. STANLEY presented a petition from Paisley, against the renewal of the East India Company's Charter. Referred to the Committee. Mr. HUME moved for returns relating to Superannua tions granted to persons connected with the Lottery Office. —Ordered. Also, for an account of the number of ships which hive passed the Sound during the years 1827, 28, and 29. —Ordered. Also, various returns relating to the importation of corn during the past year, and of the amount of revenue de rived from the importation of corn since the passing of the present Corn Laws.—Ordered. Also, for various returns relating to the appointments to the army during the past year, and of the officers in the different services who have been allowed to sell their commissions, and of all pensions and superannuated allow ances granted. —Ordered. Mr. I-H.151E presented a petition from a town in S,.:ot land, in favour of a free trade to India. Sir T. GOOCII presented a petition from the Hundred of Gosport, praying for a repeal of the malt tax. .31r- C. I3ARCLAY said he would take that opportu nity to set himself right with the House and the public, respecting, the observations he had made on the announce ment by his Right Hon. Friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, of his intention to propose the repeal of the duty on beer. He then said that lie considered the repeal of the duty a great tenefit to the brewer and the public : and though he then only expressed his own opinion, lie bad since found that many other persons in the trade con curred in it. An opinion had since gone abroad, that be cause he bad not taken that occasion of stating the injury that would arise to the publicans froze: having the retail trade thrown open, he was sacrificing their interests. The House would recollect, that he had on a former occasion stated the injury that would arise to the property of the publican from such an unlimited extension of the trade; and those gentlemen who were on the Committee also knew that he had not been unmindful of tke interests and just rights of the publicans, on whom the propnaed ex tension of the trade would bring a heavy loss, and who would certainly be hardly used, and have much reason to complain, if their interests were not protected ; but he had also a duty to perform to the public, and he would perform it faithfully, as he had hitherto done, whatever threats might be held out. He did not think the mistaken opinion that appeared to exist respecting his conduct would have been formed, but for the misapprehensions or misrepre sentations of the public press. In the Morning Adver tiser of Friday last, a paper that was in great circulation, he was accused of having combined with the Chancellor of the Exchequer to open the retail trade, and of having abaualled the interests of the publicans to promote the in terests of the brewers. He had never abandoned the in terests of the publicans, but would be happy to co-operate for the introduction of regulations into the Bill for their protection and benefit. The Morning Advertiser ap peared to threaten him with the consequences of his sup porting the measure of the Chancellor of the Exchequer; but such arguments were net likely to have any influence on his conduct ; though he hoped he was perfectly open to conviction from arguments addressed to the reason. He had said that the repeal of the beer duties would be so great a benefit to the brewers that, in consideration of it, they ought to be content to pay the forfeit in the diminu tion of the value of the securities they may hold. He could not but feel and lament that the measure of throwing open the trade would be injurious to publicans, bath in town and country ; but he would do every thing in his power to lessen the amount of injury, by regulations in the Bill ; and he was confident the publicans, whose interests he had never deserted, would find him a better supporter of their interests, in conjunction with the public benefit, than those by whom his conduct had been condemned. • Mr. BENETT asked whether all the beer on hand on the 10th of October next was to pay duty? If so, the regulation would entirely suspend the sales of old barley for the purpose of malting. Mr. N. CALVERT expressed his hope that the Chan cellor of the Exchequer would be induced to carry one of his measures without the other, and that the trade in beer would be left as it was. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that if he took off the duty on beer without giving freedom to the sale of that article, he should not be relieving that class whom he wished to relieve, but should be putting the money into the pockets of those who carried on the trade. He should not be driven from his own reason and judg- ment by what he believed to be the exaggerated alarms of the retail dealers in beer. BENETT and Mr. CALVERT explained. Lrrd ALTHORP hoped that the Right Hon. Gentleman would not allow himself to be driven from his measures as he had explained them to the House.---(Hear.)—lf the trade in beer were not thrown open, he hoped the duty would be taken off malt, and not beer. The petition was ordered to be printed. Sir T. GOOCH presented a petition from a parish in Suffolk, complaining of agricultural distress.—Ordered to be printed. Lord STANLEY presented petitions from Chorley, in Lancashire, praying that the House would open the trade with China.—Referred to the Committee. Lord STANLEY presented a petition from Rochdale, praying fur the abolition of the punishment of death for crimes against property.—Ordered to be printed. Lord STANLEY presented a petition signed by 13,000 persons, and agreed to at a meeting regularly convened by the town authorities of Manchester, complaining of dis tress, which the petitioners described as being unexampled. The Noble Lord said that he could not agree in the opinion that the distress was so great as that, but it was undoubt edly very severe. When the debate, now in abeyance, came before them to-morrow night, he should vote both against the motion of the Hon. Member for Shaftesbury, and the amendment, because he thought it calculated not to afford relief, but to create delusion. Sir G. PHILLIPS said that the petitioners looked to relief from economy in the public establishments, and the putting an end to monopolies, and particularly the mono poly of the trade with China. Lord STANLEY said that the petition had been agreed to three weeks back, and he was glad to say that since that all the information he had received represented the state of Manchester to be gradually improving. The petition was ordered to he printed. Mr. WODEHOUSE moved for returns of Accounts re ceived at the Foreign Office from his Majesty's Consuls abroad, relative to the prices of foreign corn in 1829. Ordered. Mr. SYKES postponed his motion, which stood for to-morrow, on account of the long-pending debate on the distress of the country, which seemed likely to survive that distress itself.—(Hear, and a laugh.) Sir A. CAMPBELL presented two petitions from Perth against renewing the Charter of the East India Company. —Referred to the Committee. Sir J. GRAHAM presented a petition from a parish in Cumberland, complaining of distress. Also a petition from the Hibernia Mining Company, praying for a duty on Foreign Lead.—Ordered to be printed. Mr. F. LEWIS presented a petition from the county of Radnor, against the alteration of the Welch Judicature.— Ordered to be printed. Mr. O'CONNELL gave notice of a motion for to morrow, upon the subject of two individuals having been tried twice for the same offence in Van Diemen's Land. Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from two per sons relating to the Pig-market in Dublin. After a few words from Mr. G. MooRE, Lord L. GowER, and Mr. OCONNELL, the petition was ordered to be printed. Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from an indi vidual, complaing of the state of the Coal Trade in Dublin. Mr. G. MOORE defended the system under which the trade was regulated.—Ordered to be printed. The same lion. MEMBER presented a petition from John Boyle, complaining of the impediments thrown in the way of Freeholders ; one from a parish in the county of Waterford, against the Vestry and Subletting Acts; and one from the parish of Dysart, in the same county, against the same Acts. He also presented a petition from a parish in the county of Meath, complaining of the in conveniences they suffered from the union of the parish with another. The same Hon. MEMBER presented a petition from the Borough of Athlone, praying for an alteration in the elec tive franchise of that Borough.—Ordered to be printed. The lion. MEMBER presented a petition from the Apothecaries of the county of Clare, against the present mode of management by the Corporation of Apothecaries of Dublin ; one from a parish in the county of Carlow, against the Grant to the Kildare-street Society ; and a petition from various parishes in Dublin, praying for the restoration of the Forty-shilling Franchise.—Ordered to be printed. The eame Hon. MEMBER presented a petition from Drogheda praying for a repeal of the Union, and complain ing that none of the benefits promised from that measure had been realized. . _ Mr. VAN HOMRIGH defended the Corporation of Dublin against a statement made upon a previous night by the Member for Clare. Is was not, he said, true, as stated by the Hon. ;Member, that the funds at the disposal of the Corporation for charitable purposes was 20,0001. a year. The utmost amount he believed was 2,0001., and no funds could be better managed. Sir C. WETHERELL doubted whether precedent would sanction such a petition as this. He believed there was no instance of a petition for the dissolution of the Union with Scotland presented by a Scotch Member. Before his mind was made up, he should like to have the sense of the House upon the question whether it could be received. Sir M. W. RIDLEY said there was no Parliamentary precedent against receiving such a petition. The House need not act upon such a petition; indeed he should be sorry if they did; but he saw no reason why it should not be re ceived. Mr. MOORE was authorized to state that what was put forward by the Member for Clare, with respect to the funds of the Corporation of Drogheda, was entirely without foun dation. Mr. LOCKHART doubted whether this petition could be received. He would propose that the receiving of it be postponed, that time might be given to look for precedents. In a matter so Ready affecting the Crown, and tending to a separation of two branches of the Crown, such petitions should be previously sanctioned by the Crown. Mr. Secretary PEEL was not surprised at the doubts which arose upon the point of receiving the petition. He would take that opportunity of protesting most strongly against so mad and absurd a project—so utterly destructive of the interests of Ireland itself, as the dissolution of the legislative union. He doubted, however, whether it would be advisable in this case to depart from the usage of the House, in ieceiving all petitions respectfully worded. The petitioners did not pray for a dismemberment of the Empire, because, even if the Union should be repealed, Ireland, as it was previous to that measure, would still form part of the dominions of the Crown, though with an independent Le gislature. It was certainly competent to Parliament to re peal the Union, and he therefore doubted whether they could refuse the petition. lie could not, however, find terms strong enough to condemn the agitation of such a question. He regretted much that persons could be found eapabL2 of lending themselves to the mischievous purpose of disturbing qt.?. minds and exciting the hopes of ignorant men by such discusiions., The free admission of the natives of Ireland into the Legislature, and into all the situations of the State ; the frien sly intercourse, alike beneficial to both countries, which now existed ; the measure of last .7.a"es.;ion, the good etiects of which begin to be so sensibly felt, ought to prevent the agitation of such a question, and he could not find language strong enough to expt - ,ess his condemnation of it. Mr. O'CONNELL regretted that the petition he pre sented the other night front Drogheda, was mixed up with this other petition. He would express no opinion on the subje c t o f a U n i on, b ut h e d en i e d t h at h e was the e n e my of Ireland or E ng l an d w h o was f r i en dly to a repeal of the Union.lreland prospered ' and was rapidly advancing in manufactur es an d agriculture, under her native legislature, and the certainly wSs taut bettered by the Union, He trusted the connection between the countries would subsist for ever, but he thought it would be for the advantage of both, if, like the Canadas, Ireland bad an independent Legislature. Sir C. WETHERELL said, the contract of the Union was one entered into by two independent nations, upon principles of honour and mutual advantage. In his opi. nion, a di,solution of the Union would be treason to the interests of both nations. Let the Member for Clare bring in his Bill to repeal it, and see how it would be re ceived. He disapproved of this subterraneous, this sly, slippery mode of introducing a subject of such importance. It a ppeared to him inconsistent with the privileges of the H ou se to receive a petitiou on a subject with respect to which no Hon. Member would move for leave to bring in a Bill. Mr. BERNAL said, if it was tretsonab!e to propose such a petition, the course of his Hon. and Learned Friend should oe to move an impeachment of the person who offered it to the House. If Parliament was competent to repeal the Union, he did not see how they could refuse this petition. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL could see no objection to receiving the petition. It was competent to any Mem ber to present a petition for the establishment of the feudal system. Though they may not concur in the petition, it was no reason why they should refuse to receive it. Mr. HOBHOUSE spoke in favour of receiving the pe tition. Mr. TRANT had some doubt upon the subject. Let those who proposed a repeal of the Union take care that others did not propose a repeal of the measure of last ses sion. The majority of the population of Ireland were Roman Catholics, and if the Union were repealed, the Protestants would be placed entirely at their mercy. Sir J. NEWPORT regretted that the subject of the Union was introduced at all. Whatever might have been his opinion originally of the measure, the repeal of it now must be productive of the worst consequences to both coun tries. The measure of last year produced the best effects, and he deprecated any proceedings that had a tendency to prevent it from producing all its beneficial consequences.— (Har.) Mr. PORTMAN hoped the House would not adjourn this petition, as it might lead to a temporary doubt as to the propriety of receiving it. Mr. BROWNLOW said if there was a general senti ment in Ireland, in favour of the repeal of the Union, it would only be strengthened by rejecting this petition. His conviction was that the national sentiment of all classes in Ireland was favourable to the Union, and the Member for Clare would find that he embarked in a vain speculation if he endeavoured to sow dissention upon this subject in Ire land. He trusted this was the last time they should hear of any petitions upon it. Mr. HUME spoke in favour of receiving the petition. If it was refused, it would strike at the root of the right of petition. No man was more anxious than himself to con solidate the Union, but he did not think the Right Hon. Secretary was justified in reprehending the petitioners for expressing their sentiments. Mr. Secretary PEEL did not reprehend individuals for expressing their sentiments. What he reprobated was the doctrine held out by the petitioners. He should suspect the petition was got up at a convivial meeting, for he saw subscribed to it the names of Paddy Bray and Billy Pow derly. Mr. O'CONNELL said these persons were registered freeholders of Drogheda. _ Mr. LOCKHART said there were cases in which peti tions could not he presented without the consent of the Crown. His only object in proposing an adjournment was to ascertain whether this case was one of that kind. He should not press his amendment. The petition was then read at length. On the question that it do lie upon the table, Mr. O'CONNELL said there was nothing insidious in the getting up of this petition. He had nothing to do with it, but being put into his hands he thought it his duty to present it, and in doing so he expressed no opinion. He never wished to legislate upon sectarian principles. Even if the Union were repealed it would place 156 Protestant Peers in the Upper House and only six Catholics. This must obviate the danger which the Hon. Member (Mr. Trant) apprehended. Nothing should ever prevent him from looking for what he considered beneficial to Ireland and not injurious to England. The petition was ordered to lie upon the table. Mr. BYNG presented a petition from certain inhabi tants of Paddington against the Watching and Lighting Bill.—Referred to the Committee on the Bill. Lord ALTHORP presented a petition from certain parishes i❑ the county of Northampton, complaining of distress.—Laid on the table. Lord F. L. GOWER brought in a Bill for the better regulating linen manufactures in Ireland, which was read, and ordered to he read a second time on Thursday next. Sir J NEWPORT wished to know what was the intention of Government relative to the growth of tobacco in Ireland. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it was the intention of Government to propose a duty on tobacco grown in Ireland, and lie hoped very shortly to be able to speak more fully upon the subject. Mr. HUME wished to know when the remainder of the Deccan prize money would be distributed, as great anxiety prevailed upon the subject. Mr. ARBUTHNOT said that in 1826 a large distribu tion had taken place, but upon the subject being in that year referred to the Treasury, it was found necessary to refer the prize list to India for further information. Above 800,0001. had been distributed, and as it was found that several of the natives of India had considerable claims, delay became a matter of necessity. In the course of two or three months the case would be more fully heard by the King in Council, when a further distribution would take place. He need only add that the money not distributed was at present i❑ the Bank of India at Calcutta at five per cent., in which state it would remain till its final distribu tion. The East India Company had acted in the most liberal manner. Mr. Secretary PEEL presented a petition from the So ciety of Quakers in Ireland, praying that the crime of forgery should not he punished with death. There was no class of men whose petition deserved greater considera tion, although he could not go the length of fully support ing its prayer. Mr. LENNARD was sorry to hear that forgery was still to be punished with death ; that and other thefts should be subjected to a milder punishment. Mr. Secretary PEEL had given notice for Wednesday upon the subject of forgery, and would then state the ex tent to which he was prepared to go. Ordered to be printed. 'Mr. Secretary PEEL presented a petition from the in habitants of Stroud, praying the abolition of the " Truck System." MESSAGE FROM THE KING. Mr. Secretary PEEL brought down a message from his Majesty relating to the increase of the Judges in the Su perior Courts of Common Law in England and in Wales, which was read by the Speaker as follows : GEORGE R. His Majesty having taken into consideration the Report made to his Majesty by the Commissioners appointed by his Majesty to inquire into the practice and course of proceeding in the superior Courts of Common Law, is desirous, with a view to improve and expedite the Administration of Justice in England and Wales, to be enabled to add to the number of Judges in the Superior Courts, and his Majesty relies on the liberality of this House to make those pecuniary allowances to such additional Judges which may be befitting to the dignity of the Judicial Office, and to the im portance of the duties attached to it. G. R. After a few observations from Sir C. WETHERELL, the discussion upon the subject was postponed until after the Recess. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL brought in a Bill for the better regulation of the Courts of Justice in England and Wales. It was desirable that the Bill should be read a first and second time before Easter, in order that it should be printed and circulated. Sir C. WET HERELL thought the principle would he evolved in the second reading, and therefore he thought that some delay was absolutely necessary. The Bill was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on the 27th April next. Sir M. W. RIDLEY presented a petition from a per son of the name of Bradford, relative to the metage of coals.—Referred to the Committee. EX-OFFICIO INFORMATIONS. Sir CHARLES WETHERELL gave notice that be should move for leave to bring in a Bill to Regulate the Power and Discretion of the Attoeney-General respecting Ex-Officio Informations.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) INDIA. Mr. STEWART WORTLEY moved for Returns relative to the Finance Department of India, and an Corder issued by the Directors on the 11 th March, 1830. Mr. 1115AIE wished to know whether the rumour was true that the Government of India at home had issued a prohibition to Lord W. lientinck's f ac ili tat i ng t h e settle ment of Curopea ns i n India, by which that country was likely to be so much impyoyed? Mr. S. WORTLEY said, that last year a notice had appeared in a Periodical Publication upon the subject, and all the Court of Directors had done was merely to send a letter explaining the nature of Lord A m h erst ' s regu l a ti o n o f i 824, relatiye to th e cultivation of certain produce in India. It would be laid before the Committee up stairs. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. The CHANCELI.OI4 91 the EXCIILQULB moved the Order of the Day, for the House resolving itself into a Committee of Supply. Lord JOHN RUSSELL put a question relative to Greece, which was inaudible in the Gallery ; but to which Mr. PEEL replied, that the papers on the subject were not yet prepared, and that they would be laid before the House at an early period. The Marquis of BLANDFORD put a question relative to the non-production of certain returns fur which he had moved, relative to the Electors of the United Kingdom. Mr. PEEL said that it might he possible to make a re turn of the numbers that had voted on any specific election ; but that the return moved for would be dangerous to the Returning Officers. After a few words from Mr. HUME, Mr. O'CoNNELL, and Lord NuGENT, Mr. HUME wished to know before the House went into a Committee, whether the advanced estimates were to be voted before the Navy Votes were concluded ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the intention was to take a vote of 200,0001. on account. Lord ALTHORP wished to know what was the nature of the Colonial Commission of Inquiry ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that it was not intended that the Commission should meddle with the Constitution of the Colonies ; but that it should confine its inquiries to expenditure, with a view to effect every saving consistent with public welfare. The proceedings of the Commission would be a matter of record, and would be laid before the House. Mr. HUME said, that one million had been spent in the last twenty years upon commissions of this sort, and it was doubtful if any good had resulted from them. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the Commissioners were selected so that no expence should be imposed upon the public. Sir ROBERT WILSON wished to know if the inquiry of the Commissioners would extend to the Canadas? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER answered in the affirmative. After a few words from Mr. MABERLY and Mr. BRIGHT, imperfectly caught in the gallery, the House re solved itself into a Committee of the whole House. Mr. PERCEVAL moved that a sum, not exceeding 200,0001, be granted to his Majesty towards defraying the expences of the Royal Regiments of Artillery in Great Britain and the Colonies for 1830.—Granted. Sir GEORGE CLERK should now move the Navy Estimates, and the first vote woule, be for the Civil De partments at London. The reduction upon the Victual ling Department, compared to last year, was 7101., and the reason of its being so small was, the office of Treasury of the Navy had a large establishment at Greenwich, relative to prizes, that would soon he abolished. He should move that 180,017/. be granted for the salaries and contingent expences of the Admiralty, Victualling, Navy, and Navy Pay Offices, for 1830. Mr. HUME objected to the votes being passed altoge ther. They ought to be separate. Sir GEORGE CLERK bad exactly pursued the course of former years. Prior to 1822 the whole of the Ord nance and Navy was voted i❑ one sum, amounting to many millions. The same course was pursued respecting the Army Estimates. Mr. HUME should move to report progress until se parate grants were proposed. Lord HOWICK concurred in the views of the Hon. Member for Aberdeen. Sir GEORGE CLERK had no objection to separate the votes, if the Committee really wished it. He would move that 52,2161. be granted for the salaries and con tingencies of the Admiralty Office. Mr. HUNIE thought, upon the simple principle that there should be no division in the administration of the same species of affairs, that the Marines ought to be brought under the Paymaster of the Navy. He had moved a few days ago for the Contracts of the Navy, Army, and Ordnance, with the view of showing how the present system worked. Some few years ago it had been the I practice for each Commissioner to draw the money for his I own department ; and under the direction of the Master of the Mint an end had been put to this plan, and it had been decided that one individual Commissioner (as for instance the Commissioner for Jamaica) should draw the whole sum of money, and that all the others should receive their appointed portions from him. This he thought was at once a wise and economical regulation. Now he found from a paper he held in his hand, that there were 74 con tracts made by the Paymaster of the Marines for supplying coals, candles, water, &c.—bricklayers and materials— carpenters and materials, and God only knew what other articles beside ; he would therefore ask this question— whether, since the Army was provided for by one depart ment, the Navy might not be managed after the same man ner ? He wished that a statement of the separate expendi ture of the Marines should be put in the Navy Estimates. He. saw from a paper in his hand, that there were 71,0001. for officers, 215,000/. for non-cemmissioned officers and privates, and 40,0001. for barrack and other expenses. Now, he begged to know how it came to pass, that after the transferring of the Barrack Department for the Army to the Ordnance Department, these barracks for marines should be retained under the superintendence of the Paymaster of the Marines? He was decidedly of opinion, that the Barrack, Pay, and Clothing Departments, ought to be added—the first to the Ordnance, and the re mainder to the Navy. He hoped the House would sup port him in the amendment he proposed. Mr. CHOKER said, the Hon. Member had observed, that the office of Paymaster of the Marines was expensive and unnecessary; the first, it confessedly was; but as to the second, it appeared from the Hon. Gent.'s own admis sion, that these duties, which, he contended, might be transferred to another department, were numerous and im portant. Now, his strong impression was, that there could be no more sure way of creating confusion in the public service, and imposing on the country an increased expence, than that of uniting the Marine Barrack Depart ment with the Ordnance.—(Hear.)—The Paymaster of the Marines did a great deal of duty in his double capacity; for lie way not only a Pay-officer, but an officer of inspection and controul: he was Paymaster and Inspector-General of the Marines. Now, the Hon. Member, in the first place, asked why the Marine Barracks were not brought under the superintendence of the Board of Ordnance. But, in fact, there was an essential difference between the manage ment of the Army Barracks and those for Marines. In the first, there was a constant change of inmates ; one regi.. ment marched out—another supplied its place; but the other barracks were constantly occupied by marines, and therefore the accounts must necessarily be kept in a very different manner. The attention of the House had been called to the state of these barracks at different times; and, he believed, it must be admitted on all hands, that the expenditure, under the superintendence of the Paymaster of Marines, had been diminished in as great a degree as it could have been under any other Administra tion. The numbers in the barracks were invariably the same, and the average amount of expenditure for the seven years previous to the appointment of this Paymaster was 16,800/., while the average for the fourteen years subse quent had been brought down to 9,400/. And after the change bad taken place, Mr. Tierney rose in his place and moved a compensation to each of the officers previously en- ' gaged in the department, amounting to 3 or 400/. a-year, in consequence, as he stated, of the new system, which was so economical that the country could well afford to pay the ten or twelve hundred pounds ; and so it had proved, f. a- there was a saving of nearly one-half in the expenditure. A similar improvement bad likewise taken place in another more trifling article. The average ex penditure on the Infirmary, for the seven years previous to the appointment of the Paymaster, was 1,2711. ; it had been since reduced to 1921. If the Hon. Gentleman were to abolish the office of Paymaster of the Marines, the duties of the office should go on elsewhere, but these could not he carried on without additional hands ; and if there were persons unemployed in any office it would be for the Hon. Gwntleman to show it, that they might be at once reduced ; but for himself he must say, he did not know the office when the addition of such important duties should not be attended with a proportional increase of hands. The Hon. Gentleman said that there might be one general Payboard for the country, and this, un doubtedly, was the case ; but he believed there was no mem e sure way of creating confusion and expence than that of mixing up heterogeneous matters for the superin tendence of the same department. The Right Hon. Gen tleman then proceeded to praise the zeal, talents, and efficiency, of the present Paymaster of Marines, and con cluded by stating, that he and the Hon. Member were directly at issue respecting the question of retaining this office. Sir H. PARNELL would support the amendment of the Hon, Member. Mr. 111ABERLY said the question to be decided was, if that office were necessary. He contended that it was not. The Paymaster of the Navy might pay the 10,000 marines in addition to the 19,000 seamen ; and the duties of inspection might be performed by the General, Lieu tenant-General, Major-General, or some of the other officers of the Marines who were so highly paid. Sir G. CLERK defended the propriety of the arrange ments now made in the department, and contended that no alteration of the sort proposed could he anything but in jurious. In his opinion the department, as now consti tuted, was most economically managed, and c onsidering what its duties were, he did not think that the sum of 3,0001. alear, now paid for them, could be considered any great charge upon the public. The duties of the office had been increased of late years, for by an order of the Lord High Admiral, the clothing department of the Marines was now added to its other labours. That alteration had only been effected a short time since, hut during that short time it had proved to be a great public improvement. The Hon. Member opposite had alluded to the General, Lieutenant- General, and Major-General of Marines, and had spoken as if these could be dispensed with. He begged to observe, in reply, that these were offices given as rewards to naval men who had served their country in a distinguished manner, and he was sure that the country would not grudge them these rewards. He was sure that the duties of the Paymaster of Marines were now well discharged, and that the consolidation or distribution proposed by the Hon. Member was not likely to be profitable. Lord HOWICK trusted that the Hon. Member for Aberdeen would either move a resolution to consolidate the offices now, or one which should pledge the House to adopt some step of that kind in the early part of the next Session. Mr. HUME said that his object was to reduce the grant by one-half, and he proposed a vote which would have the effect of producing that end now, if at all. As to any resolution that pledged the House for its conduct next Session, he feared little good would come of it.-- There were now four Colonels-Commandant and nine Lieutenant-Colonels-Commandant saddled upon the coun • try, at an expense of 13,000/. a year, which did not seem to him at all necessary. He was certain that no inconve nience would follow from this motion being carried ; and he, therefore, persisted in his intention of dividing the House upon it. The Hon. Member then moved, as an amendment, that the sum of 50,696/. be inserted in the grant, and that the vote should be for the half-year only, in order to give the Ministers the opportunity of making the change he desired. Mr. PORTMAN could not refrain from saying that these offices were defended in a manner in which there was more of fallacy and sophistry than he had ever before heard. He thought it necessary that the Committee should express their opinion strongly on the subject, for if not, the Government would not come down as they ought to do next Session, and make the reduction which was so absolutely required. He called, therefore, on the Com mittee to mark their sense of this vote, and in that manner tc s•rengthen that portion of the Government which was really favourable to the reduction of the public burthens. He approved of the plan of giving the vote for six months, for that would allow the Government sufficient time to make the proposed arrangements. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER pro tested against the doctrine which some Members seemed inclined to inculcate, that any particular vote of which they happened to disapprove, showed the Government not to be sincere in their wish to diminish the public burdens. The question was, whether the business of the office now under discussion could be more cheaply or efficiently per formed ? On his side of the House they answered that question in the negative ; while, on the other side, it was answered in the affirmative---on consideration, at least, that the business was transferred to other departments. The consolidation of business in the manner recommended might be carried too far. If it went beyond a certain extent he did not think it would much conduce to the ad vancement of public economy. As to the old and worn out excuses which the Hon. Member had spoken of, he would only observe, that it was impossible on such a sub ject as this to bring forward anything but old and worn-out arguments, especially after the discussions which had re cently taken place upon it. He could not but think that the alterations proposed would rather complicate than simplify the business of these offices, and increase instead of diminishing their expeuce. Lord ALTHORP could not conceive how the proposed distribution of duties could complicate the business of the office, when it was recollected that at this moment the Paymaster of Marines was a Military Paymaster, an In spector of Marines, and a contractor for their clothing all at the same time, and that the alteration suggested was to divide these " complicated duties" among different depart ments. He should vote for the amendment. Mr. BRIGHT should support the amendment, for he saw no reason for keeping up such an extensive establish ment for the superintendence of only 5,000 men. The House then divided, when the numbers were— For the original Motion 130 For the Amendment 00 Majority 4O Motion agreed to. - - On our re-admission we found Sir GEO. CLERK ad dressing the Committee, but from the noise every where prevailing he was inaudible. Mr. PORTMAN had had the intention of taking the sense of the House upon making certain deductions from the salaries of the Officers in the Admiralty. His plan would be to effect a deduction of 15 per cent., from the salaries of the higher officers, 10 per cent. from those of a lower class, and 5 per cent. from the lowest. He thought it fair that those officers should not be the only persons to escape the effects of the change which had taken place in the currency ; circumstances, however, had arisen which induced him to postpone that proposition for the present. The next vote was 32,0331. Is. 6d. for the salaries of officers and contingent expences of the Navy Pay Office for the current year. Mr. VERNON SMITH addressed the Committee, for the purpose of moving are amendment. His proposition was to the effect that a reduction of 1,2001. be made in the salary of Treasurer of the Navy. The large salary which that officer possessed could not be defended, he con tended, on the ground of any weighty responsibility to which he was exposed ; for in the event of there being any default, indemnity was scarcely ever refused. Whenever a subordinate officer happened to become a defaulter, applica tion was immediately made to that House on his behalf ; and as gentlemen they always felt bound to let the public suffer rather than the individual. Honourable Gentlemen were sure to get up in their places, and say, that the principal officer was the most worthy and honourable person in existence ; and that he should not upon any account he allowed to suffer for the default of his sub ordinate ; so that it was a mere pretence to say that the high salary was maintained on account of the responsi bility. Again, there could be no pretext for maintaining the salary up to its present amount, on account of any change made in the nature and circumstances of the office —no new duties had been attached to it. He desired to see a reduction in the present vote of 1,200/. He was perfectly ready to acknowledge that a reduction of 12,000,0001. would not afford the relief which the neces ' sities of the country required ; but he wished, by even cutting down 1,200/., to show a suffering people that some sympathy was felt for their sufferings by the body who re presented them. As an amendment, he moved that " The ' vote be 30,833/." Sir GEORGE WARRENDER could not consent to the proposed reduction. The estimates had been cut down as low as possible; and, as to the particular salary in question, it had been approved by the Finance Committee, after due deliberation ; and he fully believed that, without serious disadvantages, the emoluments of that office could not be dimini►hed. The reductions of salary were per fectly distinct from the matter brought under the conside ration of the House by the Hon. Member for Cumberland. Whatever votes might have been given upon that question, none of them implied any pledge with respect to the pre sent. It was likewise of importance to be remembered, that neither the Right Hon. Member for Liverpool, nor any other gentlemen who held the office, had ever said that the salary admitted of reduction, or that the office could be dispensed with. The amendment he certainly should op pose, for he was altogether of opinion that Ministers had made all practicable reductions, and he thought they were entitled to the confidence of the House. Mr. BANKES would support reduction, but not ex actly in the form in which it was then proposed to the House. He admitted to the last speaker that the object of the Hon. Member for Cumberland was not the same as that of the Hon. Gent. by whom the present amendment had been moved. The true way for his Majesty's Govern ment to prove the sincerity of their professions with re spect to economy would be to chew, in questions of this nature, that they regarded the public interest more than the interest of the individual. His experience of all dis cussions of this nature was, that the interest of the public was looked upon as nothing, while that of the individual was looked upon as everything. It was perfectly vain and futile to talk or think of economy so long as the interest of the public was postponed to that of every individual which might happen to be opposed to it. __ _ _ Mr. LABOUCHERE concurred with the Hon. 11Iern her for Corfe Castle. Mr. C. WOOD supported the amendment of the Hon, Member opposite (Mr. V. Smith). Sir G. CLERK—If the salary were to be reduced to SOU a year, it would be better to put the office down altogether. The present grant, as proposed, was only for six months ; and it was the firm intention of Government to provide for the gallant officer who held the place in some other way as soon as possible. Mr. BAN KES—He understood the Government, on the previous debate on this subject, to have pledged itself that the office should be immediately got rid of. Sir G. CLERK—No such pledge had been given by him, or with his knowledge, He always understood that it had rested upon the contingency of Government being able to find some other suitable office for the present occupier. Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN—He should vote for the amendment of the Hon. Member for Dorsetshire. Mr. T. BARING—He had lately heard of 70 seamen being dismissed at Portsmouth; but he was not told that Government waited till they could provide those poor fel lows with some other employment, before they dismissed them.---(Cheers.)—But, however, it appeared that while these men, who had actively served their country, might be sent to the parish for relief, one of his Majesty's ser vants must be made a burthen to the public, till a pension could be found to suit him.—(Loud cheers.)—After this, let them hear no more about a desire to relieve a suffering people. After this, let there be nothing said about plans of retrenchment and economy.-.•(Cheers.) Sir G. CLERK--If the Hon. Member had but looked a few pages further in the Estimates he would have seen that there was an ample vote to enable Government to reward those seamen who had served their country. But, if he was not mistaken, the persons to which the Hon. Member had alluded were men in ordinary at Portsmouth, and who had been snugly housed there during the war. Mr. MABERLY—It appeared on all hands that the office was a sinecure; and yet it was the sinecure officer that was to be preserved, and the other that was to be dismissed. Mr. PEEL—Out of the five speeches that had been made against the item, four of diem contained different and distinct propositions as to the two offices. The Es timates had been for some time in the hands of the Mem bers, and therefore it could not fairly be urged that the House was not aware that the vote was to be proposed. Neither was it just to insinuate that the Government were taking this step for the purpose of keeping up its patronage ; because in this case they were providing for a❑ individual who had voted against them on this very question, the object of which vote, had it been success ful, would have been to have turned them out of office. (Hear, hear.)—The Government, therefore, might be wrong in judgment ; but was it possible to say that they were acting from any corrupt motive? He would give the House this assurance—that the office of the Paymas ter of the Navy should never again appear in an Estimate. —(Hear, hear.)—They had never contemplated its ap pearance there; but when the motion was made the other night, he did expect that Parliament would make the pro vision for one year. If within two months an opportu nity of a ♦acancy should occur, the Government would take advantage of it, and in preference to any political claim would give the preference to this.—( Hear, hear.)But it was possible that no such vacancy would occur, and he therefore trusted that the House would not compel them to turn this individual out of office without any pro vision whatever. Lord HOWICK thought there was a sufficient number of Me-nbers of Government in the house already. The effect would be to make the Paymaster of the Navy a po litical office, dependent upon the continuance of Ministers in their places. Mr. TRAIT supported the amendment, in order to compel Ministers to immediate economy. Mr. D. W. HARVEY called upon the Member for Radnor to state his opinion and wishes upon the subject, and whether he was willing to hold the office of Honorary Treasurer of the Navy until the Paymaster of the Navy was otherwise provided? Mr. F. LEWIS had no wish to accept or treat the office as a sinecure ; at the same time he could not decide that he would discharge the duties for nothing. He ought not to be called upon to determine in what way the House should pay the office that he held : whatever were the decision of the House, he would either discharge the duties of the office, or in his place state the reasons why he could not. Mr. HUME hoped that the House would not consent to any compromise, but decide the question upon prin ciple. He did not see in what respect the King could be said to want patronage.—(Order, order, order.)—He supposed that the cry must proceed from some very new and young Member, who had never heard the Minister talk of the King's patronage, and of the patronage of the Crown. His ears must be extraordinarily delicate to be offended at what he had ■aid. Mr. PEEL lamented that his argument had not pene trated the understanding of the Hon. Member, who must be extremely pugnacious if he were disposed to quarrel with the very modest proposal of Ministers. The experi ment he wished to try was, whether the office of Deputy could not be abolished—the principal being required to discharge the duties. If it should turn out that the ex periment failed, he would undertake that in the estimates of next year only 2000/. should be taken for the salary. After a few inaudible words from Mr. F. SMITH, the Committee divided—. For the amendment For the original motion 155 Majority -86 On our re-admission we found the House still in the Committee. In answer to a question from Mr. HUME, Mr. F. LEWIS said, that it was found the most econo mical mode to send part of the money for the payment of the Navy to the outports by the Mail, under the care of a special superintendent, and not by an artillery waggon and guard of soldiery. Sir HENRY PARNELL expressed his doubts as to whether the cheapest mode were employed to send money to the outports. _ _ _ Mr. F. LEWIS stated that the money was conveyed at a less charge than the Bank, or any other body would send it. Mr. HUME contended that the bankers at the outports would supply the money that was wanted. Mr. F. LEWIS would undertake to examine the sub ject, and if he could find a better means of conveying the money than that now employed he would adopt it. Sir M. WHITE RIDLEY was disposed to give his Hon. Friend credit for his exertions ; but he believed that the bankers at the outports must conduct their business ott different principles from other bankers, if they could n ot advance what money would be required. The sum of 32,300/. was then voted for the Expenceo of the Navy Pay Office, and the Chairman was ordered to report progress. The House then resumed, and the Report was ordered to be received this day (Tuesday.) The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at One o'clock. SYDNEY, SEPT. 9, 1829. No RAlN.—Prayers daily offered up for it: this will he the fourth year of a dry season : your twopenny loaf is Bid. Famine must ensue in six months, it it does n ot please God to bless us. Hunter's River is dry, and when the Judges went the circuit the Sheriff and a party of gentlemen, instead of crossing in a boat, did so on foot, without soiling their shoes. The merchants (to use their own words) have nothing to do except to pick their fingers: little going 00 but sheriff's sales. The New Zealand Chiefs are at war, and all the ships have returned without cargoes, not being able to land. The Success frigate sails on the 12th for that place. Two fine young men have lately destroyed themselves ill consequence of disappointment in coming to this place. In another month of dry weather there will be no vege tables in the couirry. COURT CIRCULAR. The Duke and Duchess of CI,ARENCE came to town yesterday from their residence in Bushy-park. Their Royal Highnesses partook of a dejeune with the Princess AV ousTA, at her residence in the King's Palace, St. James'e• The Duke of SUSSEX visited their Royal Highnesses in the, afternoon. The D u k e an d D uc h ess h onoure d th e E ar l and Countess of Cassius with their company to dinner in the evening, and afterwards honoured the performances of P e , Heart of London and The Fire Fiend, or the Elephai o of Siam, at the Adclphi theatre, with their presenc e The Earl and Countess of Cassius accompanied thei r Royal Highnesses. PrinceLEoroLD came to town yesterday from Clare" mont. The Earl of ABERDEEN visited the Prince in the afternoon, and had an interview with his Royal Highness• The Duke of SUSSEX visited the Princess AUGUSTA ye'' terday at her residence in the King's Palace, St. James's- The Earl of ABERDEEN, Lord ELLENBOROUGH, the CHANCELLOR of the Exc lIEQUEIt, and Mr. Hz anms, had interviews yesterday with the Duke of WELLING ros at the Treasury. Sir HOWARD DOUGLAS, the Governor of New Bruns' wick, transacted business yesterday at tLe office of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. The Duke of WELLINGTON entertained a numerou s party at dinner yesterday evening at Apsley-house. A mong the company were the Earl of RossLyN, Earl of TANKER" VILLE, Earl of CHESTERFIELD, Viscount CASTLEREA O ' Lord and Lady Gwynva, Mr. ARBUTHNOT, Mr. LVP . TRELL, Mr. ROGERS, &C. Mr. Secretary and Mrs. PEEL entertained a party at dinner on Sunday, at their residence in Privy-gardens. An English company have determined 011 employing 50,0001. in starting a number of stage-epach ° in thEkrent parts of Irelaud.—.Limerich .Evening FQ°l' dlmri..... m •••,..,........ deli seer of cur( the part to I Mil viel it i: tuti dec Thl to E th a Frt wh De m I