The Sun. — London, England, 1833-07-30 00:00:00

R. Inglis) thought be had by his conduct on former occa sions sufficiently proved that he would never yield to any unjust despotism on the part of the press. About two years ago, it might be in the recollection of the House, in consequence of a newspaper article, in which the 'Members of the House of Commons were denominated as the lacqueys of the House of Peers, he had en tered into a contest, not with the reporters, but with the editors of the Times journal, and by his condue' on that occasion he certainly evinced no disposition to yield to the despotism of the press.—(Hear.) On the present occasion he would oppose the motion of the Hon. and Learned Member, not from any notion of feat as regarded the press, or from any desire to succumb to its influence, but because he felt that if the motion was car ried they would have to contend with the same difficulty which met a somewhat similar proceeding sixty years ago, and that the remainder of the Session would be wasted in an ineffectual endeavour, not to compel the reporters of the public press to conform to the rules of the House, but to establish their sycematic violation.—(Hear, hear.) Before he sat down lie wished to make one observation regarding a letter which appeared in the Times of that day, written by the individual who by name was alluded to on a previous evening by the Hon. and Learned Mem ber for Dublin. That gentleman he (Sir Robert In glis), had never seen, and knew nothing of ; but he had no hesitation in saying, that when he was able to boast of being honoured with the intimacy of a late friend of his, Sir James Mackintosh, he could not but be—without meaning in the smallest degree to under. value the respectability of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin—fully his equal in regard of respectability and gentlemanly feeling.--(Hear.) Taking that individual as a specimen of the class of men against whom the present proceedings were aimed, he put it to the House whether great allowance ought not to be made for any irritability of feeling they might have evinced on being told, as they had been by the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, not merely that they had committed an error, not merely that they bail stated what was false, but that they know ingly and wilfully promulgated what they knew to be deliberate falsehoods ?—(Loud cheers.) What would any Gentleman do on being told he was guilty of uttering a deliberate falsehood ? Would not his feelings of respect for himself induce him by some means or other to re taliate upon his accuser?—(Hear, hear, hear.) Then he would say that very great allowances were to be made for the feelings of a set of gentlemen who had been unjustly accused in the way that the Hon. and Learned Member bad accused the reporters of the public press.— (Hear, bear.) The House of Commons, as had been stated by the Hon. Member for Dublin, was very pro perly vested with strong powers of punishing libellous comments on its proceedings, but the very impunity of speech which Members enjoyed, ought to preclude them from venting libels on a class of men as much possessed of the feelings of gentlemen as they were themselves. — (Hear.) In conclusion, trusting that he could not be considered as in any degree yielding to the despotism of the press, and feeling that the motion of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin would place the House in a situation of very great difficulty, the Hon. Baronet inti mated-his intention of supporting the motion for the dis charge of the order. Mr. D. W. HARVEY thought that the predicament in which the House was placed one that was easily to be got out of. Involving as it did a two-fold consideration, perhaps the best way of settling that which referred to the mere personal portion of the matter was to ref-r the dispute between the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin and the Gentleman on the Times newspaper, who had that slay addressed them to the arbitration of some individual, and the House, he was sure, could not hit upon a better one than the Right Hon. Gentleman who had last ad dressed them.—(Laughter.) Then, as to the public, who, of course, naturally looked for information of what was going on in that House, be thought, perhaps, that the difficulty might aloa be got over. He quite agreed, that, c,,nsidering the narrow limits within which reports, of ecessity, wer_ confined, it was impossible to expect that one tithe of what they spoke could he reported verbatim, but lie also thought that the mere circumstance of that impossibility was attended with beneficial results. If a Member were to speak under the impression that every word he said was to he reported in the papers the fol lowing morning, instead of being written in two or three lines, a situation, he might remark, in which he often found himself—(A laugh)—he (Mr. Harvey) would ven ture to say that they should soon hear as strong complaints of the oppressive fidelity of the press—(Laughter)—as they now did of its partiality. He (Mr. Harvey) had never, in any way, held communication with reporters— lie had never yet corrected a speech of his, or in any way exerted himself to have them reported, but he candidly confessed he had no corcplaint to make of the manner in which he had been reported. There might have been one or two occasions, perhaps, in which he thought himself slightly mentioned in tie reports; but un ral:ction, so far from being annoyed at the circumstance, he felt that the suppression was an act of mercy rather than one of cruelty. —(Laughter.) On one r.ccasion he had been requested by a reporter to accommodate him with some documents referred to by him in a speech, and on seeing some of the body in an ante-room of the House, he ventured to inquire how it happened that certain speeches, which struck him as being very able, had not appeared in the papers. The answer which he received he really thought a very proper one " Do you wish the papers," said they, " to write themselves down ?--(A laugh.) If we were to write the hundredth part of the nonsense spoken in this House, the public would hardly believe that the collective wisdom of the nation would perpetrate such trash.—(Loud laughter.) If we did so we should soon write ourselves out of em ployment."—(Laughter, and Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Saeffitld had, at the commencement of the Session suggested that no Member should he permitted to speak longer than a quarter of an hour—a suggestion in which he thought there was very much good sense. He should recommend that it be left to the fourth estate, and to the Speaker to devise some plan for carrying it into effect, and thus they might, perhaps, correct the despotism which was complained of. That would at once relieve any particular Member from the imputation of not having spoken long enough—(A laugh)—when he had fulfilled the prescribed measure of a quarter of an hour. If the Members would do that, they would stand better in the public ,estimation—(A laugh)—they would be thought better of ; by the Reporters—(Laughter)—and he was sure they ;would have better reason to be pleased, when they saw their speeches the next morning in the papers.—(Loud laughter.) I should therefore recommend (said the Hon. Member) that you, Sir, should have an hour glass by the side of your chair, or rather a glass for a quarter of an hour—(Hear, and laughter)—on one side of your chair, and a bell on the other; that when the quarter of an hour has elapsed by your glass, you should touch your hell ; and then if the papers contained a similar memorial to that inserted now, when the hour of three o'clock comes, and when the Speaker is said on that account to leave the chair—no matter what may he the importance of the subject—why, then, Sir, when any Hen. Member was in tne hie hest flights of his oratorical fancy, he would at once be let down, on the assurance that his sand had run out.—(Bursts of laughter.) These are the considerations that strike my mind on the subject now immediately before us. As far as the principle of the ma :mr is concerned, I should beg leave to offer a sug gestion, which I trust will not be the less acceptable because i t i„zivel. I have no doubt that my Honour able and Learned 17 riend thinks he has cause to complain. . He says (so we undmatood the Honourable Member ; but the constant and lively mirth which the Honourable Member's speech and its humorous delivery occasioned, prevented us from being positive), " Let me have a hear ing—give me a Committee, and I will show that I have been wilfully misrepresented." If so, why let him have his Committee, and the matter will drop there. If the charge is made out, Mr. Nugent will not stand quite as well as I could wish; and we may send our compli ments to Mrs. Brodie, and say that her gentleman— Loud laughter)—has not conducted himself as he ought. --(Continued laughter.) His connection with the House, that is, his connection with the paper, would cease. Though I think, Sir, that this question, as a personal question, ought to be thus got rid of, yet, with respect to the other part of the question, I think we should, adverting to our own character, preserve that character more pure, and add to the dignity of our de liberations if we could rid of our habit of talking—(Hear. bear)—and confine ourselves to the substance, and length will then be no longer the test of merit. Now, however, i t is sc—for when ever an H on . M em b er i s spea ki ng on a particular subject, and I am coming down to the House and meet some Hun. Gentleman com i ng up f rom i t , an d I ask who is speaking and how—the answer often i., " 0:!, pretty well—he has only been speaking forty minutes"--(Loud laughter.) The length of a speech is now the test of its excellence. I do not think it ought to be. In my mind he is the greatest man who is able to put the greatest number of facts in the fewest words, anti occupy the House for the shortest tune.—(Cheers.) If that was the case with us, I think we should show our good sense more than we do note, and we should not have reason to be alarmed with the prospect of the session lasting till September.—(Loud and long continued laughter and cheering.) Sir M. W. RIDLE ( wished to relieve binchelf from the apparent inconsistency of now voting against a mea sure he had formerly supported. He should do so because as the case now appeared, it did not seem to him to be one for the interference of the House. The expression of their sentiments by the reporters for the Times bad re ference to what the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin had stated elsewhere, and not in that House, as be had at first understood. The Hon and Learned Member had stated that they had misrepresented him. He thought that, if that was a statement made in that House, no person should presume to call on the Hon. Member for words uttered in that place—but when be found that they alluded to a circumstance which had taken place at a tavern dinner, he thought that, calling on him in respect of words so uttered was not a breach of privi lege. That they were unwise in determining not to re port the speeches of the Hon. and Learned Member he did not doubt ; but under the circumstinces he bad ,tated, he was at a loss to conceive that what they said could be construed into a breach of privilege; and he was it a loss to know how their determination could be met by that House. He should, therefore, vote against the motion. Mr. O'DWYER said that the excellent speech of the Hon. Member near him (understood to be Mr. D. W. Harvey) was such as might have been expected from him if be had been counsel for the Times in a court of law, and had had a brief to defend the paper; but he must say, that he did not think the Hon. Member had treated the subject with great good sense. No doubt the Hon. Member would be rewarded for the exhibition of to-day— he would be described as having sensibly and judiciously addressed the House ; and no doubt, too, it would be stated that the Hon. Member had sat down amidst loud and long-continued laughter and cheering (of course it would be said so, because the fact was so); and the Hon. Member for Dublin would have his speech com pressed into one line. He (Mr. O'Dwyer), if anything whatever was said of him, should be represented in one line, and use would be made of the editorial power to crush him. It was not the question whether reporters should be allowed to report in that House, but whether they should have a power to exercise as they please in suppressing the speeches of Hon. Members. In his mind, the suppressio veri was equal to the suggestio falsi. It was as bad that an individual should depend on their caprice, as to whether they would insert his speeches or not, as it would be if they put into his mouth words which he hid never uttered. He did not wish to curtail the privileges of the Press; but it was most important that Members of that House, who were not sufficiently strong to bear up against this despo tism, should be supported. The question would be set at rest by their vote on this evening ; if they negatived the motion, the House could not again assert its privi leges. He implored them to negative the proposition, but at that very moment they would bind themselves permissively to throw open that gallery to the public. He was free to admit that the public should be admitted ; but as the matter now stood they must remember that if they negatived the proposition they could not again exercise the power now invoked, nor ever again bring a printer to the bar of that House. They might say that the time was now come when these matters ought to be free from the exercise of all arbitrary power. In that he agreed with them ; but while the standing order was on their books, he did not see how they could negative the motion. Mr. HUME said that, having been the person who bad seconded this motion, he trusted he should be indulged with the opportunity of stating the view he took of this question. He was not sorry for the difficulty they were now placed in. He had before pointed out the folly of the regulation ; but he had been answered, that every rule of that House was founded in true wisdom, and that the check they had ought not to be removed. What was the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin now doing ? Why, he was keeping up the regulations of tbat House. Was it fit they should be kept up? He said no ; and yet there was no mode of showing their absurdity but the manner in which the Hon. Member had acted. It was not a question of getting rid of the regulations ; but the ques tion was, whether that rule, which gave the power to a single individual to call a person who published their de bates to the bar of that House, should be acted on. He thought it should not ; and the way to get out of the dif ficulty was, to adjourn this question, to bring their stand ing rule under the consideration of a Committee, and to withdraw it, and then no one could again place the House in this position. If they chose to wave the question of publishing their debates, which be thought it was wise they should do, then be asked, whether they did not desire that their debates should be honestly and fairly given ? He would not enter on the personal question between Mr. Nu gent and Mr. O'Connell. The question for the consideration of the House stood upon broad public grounds; and if the House desired that their Standing Order should be main tained, his Hon. and Learned Friend might go on, and deprive the public of knowing any thing that passed in that House.—(Some Hon. Member uttered the words " The Times.") He apprehended that if they went on under this order they must exclude all or none. Either they must not allow their debates to be published at all, or they must allow every person to come in, and then they could have no right to complain. Let them repeal their own Standing Order, and leave the newspapers. He wished to mention a matter which he had just heard. It was this, some of their debates had been lately very much curtailed. The reporters were occupied in the other House, and that accounted for the shortness of some of their debates. He appealed to the Noble Lord opposite, whether it would not be better to adjourn this question, to take the Standing Order into consideration to annul it, and to leave the question open. Then, let an authorized reporter be appointed to give their debates. That scheme appeared to him practicable ; but the idea that the Hon. Member fur Dublin should give up his motion, while the Standing Order remained, was too much. Mr. BANNERMAN was not acquainted with any reporters, and had never bad any communication with them, directly or indirectly, till that day. That communi cation referred to a statement which had been agreed to by all the reporters to the Morning Papers, and was to the following effect : " The reporters of the Morning Papers respectfully request you to state to the House, that they deny in the most positive manner the charge of wilful misrepresentation brought against them by Mr. O'Connell, and they confidently appeal to its Members for the truth of that denial. " They beg to add that they are impressed with a full sense of the inconvenience of the course which they have been most reluctantly compelled to adopt. " That course they have adopted as the only one by which they could obtain the means of repelling in the House, as publicly as it was made, a most unfounded imputation upon their character and integrity--an imputation which, if left uncontradicted, must utterly degrade them in the estimation of society." He thought this statement deserved the attention of the House and the Hon. and Learned Member. He should now only add, that he was glad to see the Han. Member was beginning to break the neck of newspaper monopoly, by entering into competition with them himself, and beginning to be a newspaper proprietor; and if the Hon. Member would withdraw the present motion, he would subscribe to the paper. Mr. O'CONNELL denied that be had had or should have anything to do with being the proprietor of a news paper. Mr. BANNERNIAN—Why he had received a resolution to that effect, signed D. O'Connell. Mr. O'CONNELL said, that be on'y signed it as the Chairman of a meeting. Sir R. PEEL thought it would be well if the House were to consider, before they took the first step in the present proceeding, to what termination it would come. The real question on which the House had to decide was whsther the course which the Hon. and Learned Member proposed to pursue was that which would enforce the particular object for which he contended ? For his part he did not think it would have that effect.—(Hear, hear.) Most skilfully had the Hon. and Learned Gen tleman endeavoured to dissuade the House from enter taining any proposition at variance with his motion, by representing his expected opponents as persons shrinking from the despotism of the Press. But he (Sir R. Peel) need not, he was sure, urge the House to disregard, as they bad been disregarded, such adroit representations. He (Sir R. Peel) had never held any communication with any reporter. He had never corrected a speech of his during his lie, and beyond, perhaps, at the request of some member of the press, sending details of figures, he knew nothing whatever of the body beyond the knowledge which, as regarded the manner the debates were reported, was to be gained by a perusal of the papers. Such being the case he could have no object in stating more than was his opinion regarding the general accuracy and impartiality of the reports which appeared in the papers, and he had no hesitation in saying that although occasionally speeches were much curtailed, and the interest 'of the newspaper proprietor being to supply his readers with a transcript and not a literal report of what passed in Parliament, that was not to be much wondered at—the reports of the pro ceedings of the House were made with great fidelity, im - partiality, and accuracy.—(Hear, hear.) During many years of his life as a Minister of the Crown, be had occa sion to deliver speeches involving a variety of calculations and details of figures, yet on no occasion did be remember an instance in which an individual connected with a news paper had applied to him for any assistance, beyond, per haps, a statement of his figures, or in any way with a view of obtaining personal advantage, lest their character for impartiality and disinterestedness should be doubted.— ' ( Hear.) Now he confessed he thought it most creditable to the body that there never yet was an instance in which a member of it made any application to the Minister for any personal advantage, making the condition of such ad • vantage a tender of his especill services as a reporter of public proceedings.—(Cheers.) Such conduct was at least a proof of impartiality and disinterestedness, and a praise worthy desire of doing their duty towards their employers and the public. When he (Sir• R. Peel) heard the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin speak of the exemption which the privileges of that House extended to him from the authorities of every power in the State— King, Lords, or even the Judges of the land, he could not restrain his desire to remind him that the very fact of his possessing a power of speech irresponsible and un assailable by any tribunal, or any individual, ought to be his principal inducement to exercise it with moderation, and, above all, with a strict regard and adherence to truth. —(Cheers.) His privilege of Parliament enabled him to give utterance to whatever statements he pleased, without the danger of his words being brought up against him by any tribunal of his country, but it did not shield him— fortunately he would say—it did not shield him front the consequences ever attendant upon the utterance of what was not true in the minds of those against whom his attacks might be made. When, then, he took upon him self to assert, vet only that the reporters of the Morning Papers had been inaccurate in the reports, but that they were wilfully false— Mr. O'CONNELL—I only alluded to the Times.— (Cries of " Oh, oh.") Sir R. PEEL—The Hon. and Learned Gentleman stated most pointedly and generally that the reporters of the Morning Papers were all false in the discharge of their duty. Mr. O'CONNELL—I only meant to follow up the charge against the Tunes. —(Cries of " Oh, oh," and laughter.) Sir R;PEEL—Did not the Hon. Member commence his proceedings against the Morning Chronicle—(Hear) —and had he not up to the last five minutes included all the papers in his sweeping charge of falsehood?—(Hear, hear.) Well, then, was it to be wondered at that, when forty or fifty of those gentlemen —men, many of whom bad held commissions in the army and navy—many of whom had received an academical education—many of whom were entered at the Inns of Court, and a portion of whom were actually in practice at the Bar—could they, as gentlemen, possessed of the feelings of gentlemen, tamely suffer the base imputations which the Hon. Member for Dublin had cast on them, knowing, as they did, that such imputations were unfounded, and that there existed not a single instance in which their character, as a body, could be arraigned ?—(Cheers.) Although, however, he thought circumstances tended to extenuate the conduct of the body, he hesita.ed not to say in a speech of equal freedom he thought no wrong they had received from the Hon. and Learned Member for Dablin justified them in the sup pressed or wilful mutilation of that or any other Mem ber's speeches.---(Hear, hear.) He conceived that the reporters of the public papers had contracted, not certainly in explicit but in implied language, not only with the House but with the public, for the discharge of a certain duty, and that duty no man could say was duly discharged either to the House or the public so long as a private quarrel was permitted to operate as a reason for the suppression or mutilation of the speeches of any Hon. Member.—(Hear.) Supposing the Hon. Member to succeed in excluding the reporters of the Morning Papers from the gallery, did he think he could keep the public from a knowledge of what was going on in that House ? There was the Mirror of Parliament, the reporters of which had not entered into a resolution not to report the Hon. Member's speeches. Surely through the means of that publication, the channel of intelligence between the House and the people would be kept up. A week could not, in fact, elapse before some other papers, by promises to report the Hon. and Learned Member, would obtain admission to the gallery ; and he was confident Hun. Members themselves would, out of a sense of the injustice done to the papers, supply them with reports of what was done in the House, thus eluding the vengeance which was sought to be visited on them. The present motion was to bring the pro prietors and printer of the Times paper to the bar. Now it was most important to consider when those individuals were at the bar what charge was to be brought against them. Was the Speaker to say to them that the report which appeared in such a number of their paper was not a fair report ? That was, indeed, the only thing that could be said to them, for it would be an absurd joke to say that their real offence was the reporting at all of the proceed. ings of the House. Again, what assurance was the House to demand from them ? Was it that they should in future publish verbatim reports of all that took place in that House ? If they demanded such an assurance, would it not at once be refused ?—(Hear, hear.) Or would it be to call on the proprietors to promise the publication of all the debates sent to them corrected by the House ? Would it be possible to extort from them any such assurance (Hear.) In fine, the only promise they could get from the proprietor would be, "I will preserve justice to the best of my ability, but I tell this House that I will daily commit a breach of its orders." The Hon. and Learned Gentleman intimated his intention of exerci , ing his ex treme powers, or, in other words, that, should his motion be negatived, he would clear the gallery altogether of strangers. Now that the Hon. and Learned Member could do, and he (Sir R. Peel) thought, if the House were to take any steps whatever, that clearing the gallery alto gether was precisely the step they ought to adopt. Mr. O'CONNELL—That is what I will do. Sir R. PEEL—The Hon. and Learned Member says he will do it; but why, I ask, did he not do it in the first instance, instead of involving the House, should his motion be carried, in a most unpleasant dilemma?— (Hear.) " I will call before you one of the proprietors of the Times, and I will insist upon his dismissing his present reporters if they refuse to perform their deity," said the Hon. and Learned Member. Could the Hon. and Learned Member insist on that ; or was the House qualified, should the proprietor resist the demand, to order his committal? He felt strongly it could not.—(Hear.) "But," again said the Hon. and Learned Member, " I will at all events ascertain from him whether his reporters are his masters or his servants. If they are his servants I will insist on his dismissing them, and if they are his masters I will summon them to the bar." Now he (Sir R. Peel) begged to tell the Hon. and Learned Member it was impossible for him, or for the House, to do that, and that he would only be drawing the House into a more awkward position than it even then stood by making the attempt. Well, then, if the present course of the Hon. and Learned Member failed, there was but one other left, namely, to move that the gallery be cleared.—(Hear.) Was that course to be repeated every day? Mr. O'CONNELL—Certainly, 1 will persevere in it. Sir• R. PEEL—The Hon. and Learned Gentleman says be will persevere in it, and he has a right to persevere in it; but I say the Commons has a right to pause before it commences this system.—( Hear, hear.) In his opinion the lion. and Learned Gentleman would have been better advised to take time, and not bring the House into acourse from which it was difficult to see their way clearly. He deprecated the idea of the House entering into a contest with the editors of the newspapers, and exposing them• selves to their private resistance. The House would ex hibit itself in the disagreeable situation of attempting to exercise a power which it did not possess.—(Cheers.) Lord ALTHORP said that the Right Hon. Baronet had very fairly stated that the House ()tight to take care before it involved itself in a contest out of which it would be impossible to extricate itself with honour. Where this question of privilege had been brought into action there always had been found considerable difficulty. He must say that whatever had been the difficulties which had occurred before, they must have been very small in comparison to those which in this case must arise, for the fact was not a breach of privilege, but a desire that the privilege should be broken, and an anxiety that people should break it more extensively. Really he con ceived that the improper course which the House was called upon to adopt would place it in a situation of the greatest possible difficulty that: 1 d be imagined. He was rather surprised that the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin should put so much importance on baying his speeches reported, and, conskeinag the estimation in which the Hon. and Learned M in stir was held, he (Lord Altborp) should have supposed:U t s he Hon. and Learned Member could not have thought for a moment that he was called upon to bring forward this question as a serious question. The Hon. and Learned Member had said that he was placed in the same situation in which Hon. Members on previous occasions had brought their cases before the consideration of the House; hut be (Lord Al thorp) must observe, that the Hon. and Learned Member, in his opinion, would have consulted much better his own situation and his rank in society, by not entering into such a contest. The position of the Honourable and Learned Member niust certainly be particularly disagreeable to a gentleman of his eloquence, but at the same time this could not interfere in the slightest degree with his duties in that House. He hoped that Hon. and Learned Member would not persevere in his motion, but if he would choose to persevere he ought to take the responsibility of perseverance entirely upon him self.—(Hear.) The House would do well to avoid sn gaging in the contest in which it would be involved if it were to assent to the motion of the Hon. and Learned Member. —( Elear, hear.) Mr. O'CONNELL expressed a wish to hear the opinion of the Speaker upon the subject of the privilege claimed by the House. The SPEAKER said that having been specially called upsn by the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin t o answer a question, he should be sorry to be backward in complying with the request, although at the same time he must confess that he did not exactly understand to what point the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's question was directed.—(Hear, hear.) If the question from the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was whether the publication of the debates of that House were a breach of pri vilege, he (the Speaker) believed that the question was superfluous, and the answer must be obvious before he gave it. He believed that nobody ever doubted—he believed that no Member of that House, whatever were his views, had ever thought that the constant violation of the privileges of the House was any thing but pertnis sory on the part of the House, and allowed solely for the benefit of the public, and on the ground that it was practically and perfectly consistent with all the intentions which the House should have in the discharge of its duties and in the transaction of public business. If the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin really meant to ask merely this question, he (the Speaker) took it for granted that every Member of that House must have been aware of the only answer that could be given.—(Hear.) If the Hon. and Learned Member meant by this question whe ther the House, in permitting this breach, intended to take one of two alternatives, either to forego the obser vance of the privilege or to relinquish that privilege, then his answer was, that the House had retained the right of enforcing that privilege whenever it thought pro per. He was still uncertain whether he had got to the meaning of the Honourable and Learned Member's ques tion. If it referred to the point before the House, it appeared to him that the complaint was heavy, and that it involved an unquestionable grievance ; but at the same time the complaint was one thing, and the grievance an other. In his opinion, the dealing with the complaint would be no remedy or cure whatever for the grievance. He presumed that whatever was the point or object of the Hon. and Learned Member's question, he had now answered it. Under these circumstances it must be, on the present as on all other occasions, for the House itself to exercise its own judgment, when it thought the occasion arose for carrying into execu tion any course it might be pleased to adopt, in order to enforce the due observance of its privileges. He would not go further upon the subject, and he only hoped that he had answered the question which the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin had thought proper to put to him. The question before the House now was the reading of the order of the day. He took it that no amendment upon this question would arise. The question was, whether it should be discharged or not. The Hon. and Learned Member bad arid that he had carefully looked into the Journals of that House, and that he had found no instance of such an order being discharged. He should be sorry to set his recollection against the Hon. and Learned Member's inquiry, but yet he could not doubt his recollection that, ever since be had had the honour of filling the situation he now occupied, many hours of debate had been taken up not only upon the privilege now in question, but whether the breach of that privilege called for the interference of the House or whether, upon the whole, it was not such a case as the House ought not to interfere in. The privilege itself, or the right to enforce it, had certainly never been questioued ; but the discretion of enfincing it bad often been the sub ject of discussion. He then put the Order of the Day upon the bzeach of privilege, " That John Joseph Lawson and James William Lawson be called to the bar of the House." Mr. METHUEN moved to discharge the order. Mr. E. J. STANLEY seconded the amendment. Mr. TYNTE hoped that the Hon. and Learned Mem ber would withdraw the motion. When it was first agi tated, he thought it was something feasible. He found that that was not so. He should now oppose it ; for the Hon. and Learned Member was now attempting to trench on the liberties of the Press, and through them on the liber ties of the people. This day three years he (Mr. Tynte) stood at the barricades in Pans, and he well remembered toe one chief reason why the then King lost his Throne, and was driven from his capital, was, that the Journals had appeared one blank, in consequence of the Censorship. (Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member spoke of the censorship of the press, and of the Speaker as censor ; but he (Mr. Tynte) should never consent to any censorship, not even with the Speaker as censor.—(Hear, hear.) He hoped the Hon. Member would withdraw his motion, and if he considered that this was the only mode the :reporters bad of testifying their feelings, at a charge of being guilty of uttering wilful falsehoods, he could not wonder they should have adopted it.—(Hear, hear, bear.) Even the worm when trod on would turn, and there were among those gentlemen many who had as high feelings as any Members of that House. Mr. O'CONNELL said, there vas no man on that side of the House whose opinion he should be more proud to follow than that of the Honourable Member who had just spoken. The Honourable Member had said that one of the causes of the Revolution of July, was the appearance of blank journals. That was what he complained of—a censorship over that House, which should not be established through Isis person.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Then he came to the charge. If he was right in it, was it not his duty to make it ? The manly course was to make charges, if he was able to sustain them. He should be content to have that Honourable Member, and the Hon. Baronet, this Member for the Univet sity, as arbitrators in the matter. His charge was a matter of fact, and if he did not prove it, there was no concession he would not make. The Reporters had an nounced that they would outlaw one of the Members. Under these circumstances, the House might do what they pleased with the motion. Mr. FINN spoke amidst cries of " Question !" He said that if the Reporters were to decide whether the speeches of the Hon. Member were to be published or not, their privileges were a mockery. He had been indebted to them for some notice of him, and they had sometimes misrepresented his speeches, but he never called for pu nishment upon them. The fact was, the House was too small, and the accommodation insufficient. They should be better accommodated. Ile should not vote at all on this question. He was for getting rid of the absurd privi lege now standing on their books. How was it possible for the House to punish men for not violating its own orders ? It was not neglect, but misrepresentation, that he should complain of. Words had been sometimes put into his nu-11th which lie had never uttered, and words had been put into the mouths of Hon. Members, as com ments on him, when they had never uttered them. Sir F. BURDETT thought that the present was a very novel proceeding. He could not but feel regret that the Hon. and Learned Member had brought forward this question, for he did not see how lie could do himself justice, as he termed it, by inducing the House to enter into a dispute with the newspapers. The Hon. and Learned Member had brought forward groundless charges of uttering falsehoods against a body of gentlemen, some of whom he (Sir Francis Burdett) knew, and could state, to be as respectable as any .Member of this House.--(Hear, hear.) It could not be expected that gentlemen would have patience to endure such treatment, though whether they had taken a proper course to testify their feelings on that occasion he was not bound to say. The Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin had said that the reporters haul been guilty of wilful misrepresentations. The gentle men had replied that they denied the fact. Was the House to take cognizance then of such a dispute between the lion. and Learned Member for Dublin and the re porters ? If they did they would soon find that they had involved themselves in difficulties out of which it would las scarcely possible to extricate them selves with consistency and honour. The Press had often been brought before that House upon much better grounds than at present existed, and it had always been found that the House never had the means to extricate itself with credit, much less to attain the object it had in view. The House had always found that it had been involved in a most discreditable kind of a contest. The only charge that could be heard at the bar of that House, he apprehended, was for violating the privileges of the House. On such a charge the House said to the per son at the bar, " You have been guilty of violating a stand ing order of this House." But this was not compatible with the fact, that as far as the feelings of the House were concerned the violation was practised with the understood concurrence, and according to the intention of the House itself. What was this but to call men to a technical ac count, without any view of entering into the merits or the demerits of the case ? It was perfectly ridiculous for the House to waste time in such a proceeding—(Hear)— and if they were to consider that the feelings of the gen tlemen of the press were as much alive to misrepresentation and abuse by Members of that House, whether such mis representations took place in the House or elsewhere, the folly of proceeding further in the case woul I be manifest to every body. With respect to the speeches of per sous being passed over by the reporters, he could recollect many very important men being so treated, and for a long time ; but never did any one of them think it consistent with the dignity of the House, or with the dignity of themselves, to attempt to drag the House into a dispute with the reporters on such an occasion. Mr. Tierney, whose character was so pre-eminent, and the suppression of whose speeches was such a loss to the pub lie, was fur a long time not reported. Such had been the case with Mr. Wyndham ; and not only with reference to such eminent men, but with respect to all the transactions of that Hume, it was undoubtedly a great lose to the public when its proceedings were not reported. But he did not see how the House, in such a case, could do anything more than leave the evil to be corrected by the general com petition of the press —(Hear, hear.) There was an abundance of reporters in the gallery. The Hon. and Learned Member, if he liked, might have a reporter of his own.—(Laughter.) There were plenty of newspapers, and those that gave the debates with incorrectness or un fairness would soon find that they would forfeit the great reward of newspapers—the public approbation. For his part, he could scarcely conceive anything mo . e fair than the manner in which the debates of that House were ge nerally reported. Purposely and intentionally, which was the charge of the Hon. and Learned Member against the reporters, to tell falsehoods in the teports of speeches, was an accusation which he did not believe, when generally applied ; and it was incompatible with the characters of some of the reporters whom be knew, but whether it were so or not, it was a matter utterly out of the jurisdiction of that House. Anything that the House could do would be perfectly nugatory, and the House, after its interference, would be just where it was when it begun.—(Hear.) Col. EVANS had been informed of a circumstance, within these few minutes, which he would state to the Hous.. Perhaps the House might recollect, that a few evenings ago, he had been caught napping, and •ne of the evening papers (he did not mention it by way of complaint) had published a violent letter, exposing the ridiculous way in which he had been carried in and compelled to vote by the Speaker against his consent. The paper in question had represented that his public character was now totally lost, and that he himself was utterly degraded. If he pursued the course of the Hen. and Learned Member for Dublin he should now be very angry, and call on the House to assert its privileges in his behalf. He looked upon it, however, without any feelings of auger, and if the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin would only look on his case with similar good humour, he believed that it would soon piss over. Mr. O'CONNELL did not complain of the attacks of the press ; their tyranny was in the suppression of his speeches, which he would not submit to. Mr. AGLIONBY thought that too much importance had been attached to the question. The privileges of the press were invaluably important to the country, and he would never shrink from supporting them; but at the same time he would never shriek from raising his voice against its abuses.—(Hear, hear.) If the reporters avowed a determination to suppress any speeches uttered in that House, he would put it to the House whether it would not feel itself bound to visit such conduct by its interference. He regretted very much that this motion had ever come forward, but, now that it had been brought forward, he put it to the House whether the question could be dismissed as a matter merely personal to the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin. He hoped that the House would look at it with a wider scope, and would at once grasp the difficulties. The suppression by the reporters ought not to he treated by the House merely as a punishment on the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin. If the puldic speeches delivered in that House concerned the country—if the country were a party con cerned in having the debates of that House reported—then, as reporting was a decided breach of privilege, it could only be performed by a sort of implied compact with the Press that the publication should be fair, and free from all partiality whatever.—(Hear, hear.) When the Hon. Member for Westminster spoke of the inaccuracies of the press, he begged to remind him that this was not a case of inaccuracy, but of total and wilful suppres sion. If this had been a mistake he should have been the last man in that House to make it the subject of severity. No man in that House or out of the House would more readily bow to the great difficulties under which the press laboured with respect to locality, with respect to the diffi culties of seeing and hearing, with respect to the difficulties of selec ing and condensing, and, in abort, with respect to the innumerable obstacles with which the press had to contend ; but all this was different from a wilful sup pression and a combination or conspiracy to suppress. He Lad heard that night the simile of the worm turning. If the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin had done injustice to the reporters of the press, no man, he hoped, would be more willing to make reparation. If be would not, he (Mr. Aglionby) would not for one single moment take the side of the question he was now taking. Let the worm turn in a proper way and make a remonstrance to the Hon. Member. The feelings of the House and country would then be with the reporters. This was not a personal matter, but one in which the country was concerned, deeply concerned ; but how the House was to get out of the matter he did not know.— (Laughter.) The House bad a privilege which it was inconvenient to continue, and a dignity which it did not know how to enforce. The House the■ divided— For the Amendment Against it Majority On our re-entering the gallery we found the House receiving a message from the Lords. Immediately the Masters in Chancery had retired, Mr. O'CONNELL exclaimed, I see strangers in the gallery.—(Cries of " Oh, oh," cheers, and laughter.) The SPEAKER—Strangers must withdraw. The gallery was immediately cleared, and the doors closed. (We understand that the Hon Member for Worcester, Mr. ROBINSON, gave notice of a motion for to-morrow (this day), that the standing order of the House against the presence of strangrs be suspended. The gallery remained closed during the remainder of the sitting. HOUSE OF LORDS, Juzy 29. The Bishop of LONDON presented petitions from Co ventry for the abolition of slavery ; from the diocese of Lichfield and Coventry against the Irish Church Bill ; and from Salop on the subject of the Tithe Composition Bill, and praying their Lordships to reject that provision by which the value of tithes is to be estimated by the average of the last seven years. Some discussion took place between the Duke of BUCCLEUCH, Lord ROSSLYN, and others, on the second reading being moved of a Bill for uniting several parishes in the counties of Clackmagnan and Ross, which, in con sequence, was referred to a Committee. Mr. CHARLES GRANT and others brought up the East India Charter Bill, the Irish and Scotch Vagrant Bill, and some private Bills. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY complained that certain papers he had moved for a fortnight since, con nected with the foreign policy of this country, had not yet been laid upon the table. These papers he had in tended to use in making a motion of which he had given notice for tomorrow. Earl GREY said a few words across the table to the Noble Marquis, which were inaudible in the gallery. Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from St. Mary's, Lambeth, in favour of the Dramatic Representations Bill. The Earl of GLENGALL said that that measure made a direct attack upon the prerogative of the Crown, and directly violated many sacred rights. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said that he heard that the Bill did no such thing. The Duke of NEWCASTLE presented a petition from Sir H. Lees against the Irish Church Bill, couched in his usual violent strain of invective, and praying their Lord ships to reject it on the third reading. Also one to the same effect from a place in England. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE presented a petition, signed by upwards of 100 inhabitants of London, in favour of the Dram ttic Performances Bill. The Duke of WELLINGTON presented a petition from the ship tradesmen of the Thames against the East India Bill. The Noble Duke said the arrangement, if carried into Effect, would take from the City a capital of forty millions, which usually had been employed in that trade, and it would totally destroy the trade of the peti• tioners. _ _ _ On the motion of Lord ELLENBOROUGH, a copy of the correspondence between the East India Company and the Board of Commissioners relative to the cessation of trade, was ordered to be laid on the table. Lord WHARNCLIFFE wished to know what powers were to be given to the Commissioners who were ap pointed to inquire into municipal corporations. Unless they were much restricted, their inquiries might be very prejudicial to the interests of corporations who were dis puting their titles to estates. Tne LORD CHANCELLOR said the best way of answering the question would be to produce the commis sion itself. Ile would only then say that every Corpora tion had some legal adviser, who would tell them what titles they were bound to produce, and what not. They were well enough protected by the law at present. IRISH CHURCH TEMPORALITIES BILL. On , the motion for reading the order of th e d ay for bringing up the report on this Bill, The Earl of WINCHILSEA rose to crave the indulgence of the House for a few minutes. He bad not followed this Bill into Committee, being himself so hostile to its principles, that he found i he could n o t w i t h any con sistency agree to its going into Committee, having no hope that any amendments that might be made could re move the strong objections he had to the measure. He looked on the Bill as one of the most unconstitutional mea • sures ever brought forward. He had frankly acknowledged the power of the Crown, with the consent of its spiritual advisers, to propose to Parhameut any measures which, ,sdA in their wi s d om , th e y m i g ht t hi n k ca l cu l ate d to Pr e ," o i4 the g enera l we lf are o f th e Church.; But be ° duo the power, and he challenged the Noble Esrl to pre any authority s i nce th e R evo l u ti on o f t h e C ro wn, t e e st away the temporal interests of the Chu rc h an d place bo e at the disposal of Pa r li amen t. H e wou ld a ll o w that . :fot were clauses in the Bill well wo r thy o f th e support of House, and e v e ry i n di v id ua l th a t w i s h e d we ll t o the Cbe7 .oo but he f e lt b oun d t o con f ess th a t h e fi rm l y believed ti clauses had been inserted with a mask, and the deli , screening those p ar t s w hi c h s t ruc k a d ea th blas the root of the Protestant Church.—(Hear, h eir c it He looked upon the Bill as one of the most violent et% that had been made upon the established religion of ~ country since the day s o f J ames 11. If t h e i r Lord looked to those parts of Ireland where the Proteg religion was professed, and to those parrs of the countrtj which the Catb lic religion prevailed, they would see good order and conduct characterised the peasantry of To former, and open and daring violation the latter. would pray their Lordships, therefore, not to pass a , to which would subvert th e es t a bli s h e d re li g i on , an d tee''#) separate the two countries.—(Loud cries of " He ar t .' He was glad that th e 147 t h c l ause h a d b een given TM for he h a d un d ers t oo d t h at t h e surp l us h a d b een aferr iy the Catholi c : c l erg y, an d t h at t h ey h a d re f use d i t . s u Noble Earl concluded by moving that the report received that day three months. Earl GREY said he would not on that stage of t Bill enter into its details. He should not have said aw thing at all had it not been for those express'cl which bad fallen from the Noble Earl relative to the W oo clause, that the surplus bad been offered to the Cad' clergy, and by them refused, which was the reason Whi o had b een w ithd raw n. --(Hear, hear.) His answer„ that was merely to give it a most direct negatiT i and the Nobl e E ar l m i g ht t e ll hi s i n f ormant t h a t th e was not the slightest foundation for such a report. The gallery was then cleared for a division— For bringing up the report Against it 3B Majority for Ministers —3o On our re-admission to the gallery the report had be e ; received, and the House was discussing the emendates which had been postponed in the Committee. . . In the clause appointing Commissioners, the Duke WELLINGTON proposed, as an amendment, that Commissioner should make a declaration that he WI member of the United Church of England and I re land , Lord PLUNKET considered th e d ec l ara ti on unne'i,' sary, as the majority of Commis s i oners wou ld be Ar'' bishops and Bishops. The Earl of ELDON said it was possible that an AiL d efr bishop or Bishop might not be a member of the Protes"'" , Church. Lord PLUNKET looked upon that as a most esl Binary assertion. The Earl of ELDON, in expljpation, said that reverend persons might not act up to their app qu ilification. The Duke of WELLINGTON thought those t i were members of the Commission ought to soll‘ e declaration th a t th ey were mem b ers of t h e Prote st , Church. He had no desire to throw obstructio o the way of the Bill, but he should insist upon ti amendment. The Earl of HARROWBY considered the d e clara li4. necessary, and supported the amendment. Earl GREY did not feel any objection to the inser ° of the dechration. The LORD CHANCELLOR said, if every indisli forming the Commi ss i on was compe ll e d to declare hin),..4 a member of the unit e d Ch urc h o f E ng l an d an d hew" this difficulty would arise. The Lord Chancellor 0 Ireland and the Lord Chief Justice might no t b e m en3l44 of the Church of England, and a clause might be n j ol to make it lawful to pass them over and take others. o i a new difficulty would arise. The Lord Chief Bara, the Chief Justi ce o f th e C ommon Pl eas m i g h t s taos t y the same situation, and in that case what was to bed remedy? He suggest e d, th a t t h e b est mo d e s vcalh• when any two of the lay Commissioners were n ot n le hers of the united Church, to leave the Comtnissin ° the hands of nine. I I . The Earl of ELDON sa id b e never wou ld coven of the Bill ; but a sense of the duty he owed his con rj o e impelled him to say th e y cou ld no t, w ith ou t a g ross ~ d l,ll liction of duty, consent to wav e th e secur ity whic h been taken in every instance of ecclesiastical trust. d The Archbishop of DUBLIN said he bad ce o3 ol ,i , the Prelates of Leland, and they bad transmitted an i t, nion that it was necessary to meet and provide for emergency. t yt The Marquis of WESTMEATH said he had bea i f t speech of the Noble and Learned Lord with go" it when the Noble and Learned Lord proposed a clat: e ) allow the Commission to b e f orme d w i t h ou t d ue seen ( for the Established Church. That Noble and Le Y Lord was the keeper o f t h e Ki ng ' s consc i ence , 10 31 .4 , believed the Learned Lord had but little of that science, and what little he had the Noble Marquis sincerely hoped might not long remain in his keepit o bll The LORD CHANCELLOR was sure the Marquis had misunderstood him. His object was to 0 ; 0 ) all the security to the United Church of Englan d Ireland the Bill could give. old I The Marquis of WESTMEATH said all be l o t, was, that the Bill should be so framed that mere $ O O turers should not fill the situation of Commissioners ' the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack Wes b° so to frame the Bill. v . is After a remark from the LORD CHANCELLORY amendment was agreed to. After a protracted conversation, „01 11 ,, Earl HARROWBY intimated hi s i n t en ti on on %r stage of the Bill to move th a t th e bi s h opr i cs be commendam. t The Earl of HADDINGTON gave not i ce t h — o of f should, on the third reading of the Bill, move that i d should not be so large a reduction in the number of Bishops. dO e' The Earl of WESTMEATH was oppose d t o the f e at tion of Bi s h o p s , an d expresse d hi s d eterm i na tion 0 " the Bill his utmost opposition. elsil Lord ELLENBOROUGH moved that the 32d be omitted. 11 01 ' 41t, Lord GREY moved an amendment to the effect/ t o/ ten livings should be placed at the disposal of th e Archbishops, to be bestowed upon the junior Fe ll° 4 " Trinity College. The livings not to exceed 8001. The Bishop of LONDON observed that howeveto sirable it might be to provide for the junior Fello.lefi that establishment, it would not be necessary to pro vi d the senior Fellows, who had each from 1 , 5 00 1 . to 1,.111 The LORD CHANCELLOR expressed a hope the speedy inquiry sv,u4l take pace into these senior le ships with a view to their reduction, in order to the crease of the junior fellowships. The Duke of WELLINGTON expressed himself °lll fled with this regulation as far as it ;vent. 00 1 Lord WICKLOW said that Trinity College vin e ' grateful for the concessions made by the Noble Fell .l ' This clause was agreed to. tri ° Upon the 34th clause being moved, a conversationoV place in Earl Grey, Lord Harrowby, th e 1 ,01, i ; of Wellington, and Lord Rouse, toek a part; . 0 1 9 was carried on in so low a t o n e as to be inaudibl e gallery. fic ° The Bishop of EXETER, in reference to th e i given up by the Bishop of Derry, said he did o°t 2 o Wain of the proceeding, but he th oug h t t h a t it " 41 :41; 1 ' 1 1; a bad precedeLl for an interference with ve sted 0 0, unless there was something in the Statute to shef t , t t ‘ J was done volunt ar il y . H e, t h erefore, moved nt words, " Th e Bi s h op o f D erry hav i ng freely asle 0 thereto," he added. sfalj Lord PLUNKET thought that the meadow °.t be an improvement. tn ° br The Marquis of I3UTE, after a few observatiorl' o or a clause to the effect th a t the v es t r y c es s shook' i o imposed on the clerg „•por e d The Earl of WINCHILSEA could not part' u c g - cle ( v i , the injustice of throwing the vestry cess upon tP ri - tO O 4 O of Ireland. Many of them, having been called 01: .. 4).- 04 1 00 , orifice their private property for the support of t l e r o4l o 4 and their families, were entitled to every cone' 999,:t' lie was sure that he spoke the sentiments r;" ,re rt of 1,000 Protestants when lie said that he wa s 'or re had rather the tax should have been upon t" e ; re the Home recollect how great a proportion of t bt perty of Ireland was in the hands of Protesta ° :, in amount of the tax would not be five fartiri e b pound. t1 ,;9 Va o O The Earl of WICKLOW had always oppose- porgy' ticular clause. He thought it mo,t unjust that ° l r y 0 1 ' ° 0 1 of the small property in the hands of the cie r , gi i° the he taken from them to relieve the landlord. It;: a t fn a r f ir power of the Ministry, by the renewal of th e , '‘ -" o payment of tithe, and changing the sum from J.- i t o de rent., and making it compulsory, to give an e q u go ry the clergy. e The Marquis of WESTMEATH concurred 00 4 word that had fallen from the Noble Earl. v , The Earl of HADDINGTON w i s h e d to Ire; ) ; t o tax were imposed on th e c l ergy o f Ireland , ',sin e P 4 years or months would pass over before the was appliei to the people of this country ? a moment, be supp ose d t h at t h ose w h o had hce::it. a l e rous for this Bill h a d any oth er motive th a n r the clergy ? W ou ld they, who were elaroo 00, r 01' o ibex. tazatiou of the clergy oil this occasion; II ryrithout mom t? He thought ut the c h urch it. ? ~ir6 rF ilon across A the gallery. th 4 tlir clause w 11 44 P{meis to b I ‘l% „, t t° catch its Tr v ,!cl. Ple e t t third readi 4IP I I IN G IN 1111)v:411 JULY por7soldt %ailed; th, "° " ti : u Vad, 1 , 13 0k e of Bedi J Attivtltoff J 1 , 4 'd go,, sh Port, ' ir /tkp oo J 11 4111: 9 • K'll,froi fro 'teiIAYEN. Anti gu , f t , ki)c H , DA 411 Y t , 'bee Vi' r • %I t ' R h, At, j u b ir. , J . .Qiza tt, 3 ' artiehi .oty Pet: ll44l , t: 41 411 1 " : 3 ir Gtn i s 'ex ti „ zzr, terd a 4 4d e i Y wi b rava THE Si re,,, Q g t'urt N v h Dr o , e. 'gate f ro tak i.. 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