The Sun. — London, England, 1830-03-27 00:00:00

CHEQUER, the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Four per Cent. Annuity Acts. The RIGHT FlotT. GENTLIC3IAN, when in Committee, said, that though the measure be was about to bring under the consideration of Parliament was, in a financial point of view, of great importance, it would not be necessary for him, in explaining ita bearings, to trespass tany length on the attention of the Committee. His object was to relieve the public burdens by a reduction of a partion of the public debt. The principle of such a measure Was One needed not' in' that House any argument by way of justification ; for it had ever been felt by Mr. Pitt, .and . ..those who succeeded him in the management of the finances of the country, that it was the duty of Ministers to take advantage of every opportunity which the state of the public credit afforded of reducing the a:nount of the national burdens. This principle had been asserted by Mr. Pitt, and would no doubt have been acted upon by him but for the eventful war, the extent, duration, and consequences of which, it was impossible for him to foresee. It was, however, as he had stated, always kept in view by those who had succeeded him in office, an 1, since the peace, had been carried into practice by them to the extent of relieving the public burdens annually of about 2,000,000/. The period ,had new arrived for effecting a still further reduction of those burdens, and accordingly he thought it his duty to take ' advantage of the first fair opportunity of availini , himself of it. He proposed therefore to effect that further ' reduc tion, by the conversion of the new Four per Cent. Annui ties intos new Three and a Half per Cent. stock.—(Hear, bear.)—The circumstances of the country were highly favourable to such a conversion, as a moment's considera tion of the rate of interest in the money-market, and of the amount of capital seeking for a profitable outlay, would convince any Hon. Member. Capital to a large amount was laid out on mortgages at 4 per cent, interest, and was now offered within his own knowledge for Si per cent. When this fact was taken into consideration, and when the peculiar advantages which an investment in the public funds afforded were also borne in mind, the House he was sure would not for a moment refuse its sanction to a conver sion of the Four to Three-and-a-Half per Cent. stock. It could not be objected that the measure would operate as a breach of contract explicitor ; for the act under which the new Four per Cent. Annuities were created, explicitly stated that that rate would be guaranteed for but seven years —that is, that the act would be in force for only that pe riod ; Government being left at liberty at the expiration of that term to act towards the holders of that stock as it might appear advantageous to the public. Those seven years had expired, for the act was passed in 1822, and Ministers deemed it their duty to effect the proposed con- version.—(Hear.)—He felt therefore that no further argu• ment was necessary, so far as ti principle of his intended measure was concerned. The only question then for the Committee was, what were the terms on which he meant taieffect the reduction? Those terms would, he persuaded himself, be found those conducive to the public advantage. He proposed to give every holder of the new (that of 1822) Four per. Cent. Annuities, who should not signify his dissent, 1001. of a new Three-and-a-half per Cent. stock, and that 3f per cent. interest he would guarantee for ten years. The price at present in the market was 99} per cent. exclusive of interest, so that his 1001. at Three-and-a-Half was a fair estimate. To those who should express a dissent from these terms, he would give an option of subscribing to a new Five per Cent. stock, not redeemable until the sth of January, 1873, each holder of Four per Cents. to receive 70/. of the Five per Cent. stock for his 1001. It might be asked, perhaps, why he had not preferred converting all the Four per Cents. into this Five per Cent. 701. fifty-two years stock, as there would accrue a great consequent saving to the public ? The answer to the nestion was contained in the fact, that at least 2-sthe of ciLe holders of the Four per Cents. were trustees of the property of others—that is, persons respousible for the management of property not their own ; so that if they were compelled, without option, ' to take in lieu of every 1001. Four per Cents., 70/. Five per Cents., Parliament would be neither more nor less than legalizing an immoral act, by which, for the sake of temporary advantage, a large amount of trustee property might be deteriorated one-third. It might also be asked why forty-two years had been fixed upon for the intended Five per Cent. 701. stock, instead of that recommended in a pamphlet, in which the subject had been minutely in vestigated. (We understood the Right Hon. Gent. to allude to Mr. Briekwood's pamphlet.) In answer he could say, that it appeared in calculation that all things consi dered, that 701. at five per cent. for forty .two years was equal to 1001. at three and a half per cent. ; and that if the recommendation of the pamphlet had been acted upon, 18,000,000/. capital would be sacrificed for 229,000/. per annum; and for a Ss. reduce'-n of present interest the possibility of a reduction of 109. in a few years. With this brief explanation of his plan he should proceed to move the resolutions on which he would found his Bill.— He would be happy to afford any Hon. Member every further information in his power. lie counted on the sanction of the Committee to a resolution by which the public would save next year 778,000/., and that, too, without at all impairing the means of public credit ; on the soutrary, its effect would be to add to those means, and Vtereby to the character and resources of the country.— (Hear.) —The Right Hon. Gent. concluded with moving a resolution to the effect, that all holders of New Four per Cents, who shall not signify their dissent shall have for every 1001. of the Four per Cent. Annuities, 100/. of a new Three sand a Half per Cent. stock, the first dividends on which shall be payable on the sth of next January, and which shall not be liable to redemption till the sth of January, 1840, with an option to the holder of subscribing to a new Five per Cent. 701. stock, redeemable on the sth pf January, 1873. Air. BERNAL was anxious to know by what plan the diesentienta were to be paid off, because that ought to be ascertained before the House were called upon to provide for the necessary amount. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said in reply, that it would be inexpedient for the Government prematurely to expose its plan. He hoped it would be enough far his Hon. Friend to know, that the intended gno4te of proceeding would be what became the country to pursue, in fairness and justice to the public creditor. After n few words, which were inaudible in the gallery, between Mr, P. Tnoatsorr, Mr. BERNAL, and the CHAN-. IIItLLOIL of the RxertxcluEß, Mr. HUME pressed earnestly upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer to state, in justice to the stockholders of the Four per Cents., what his mode of proceeding would be, to enable them to have proper time to decide whether they would accept his new stock or take their money. He ought also to say hew he meant to provide for the dis sentients ; because it was essential for the public to know how far the Bank of England was to be engaged in the transaction, considering the heavy liabilities to which that corporation were already exposed. These two points of information he hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would take an early opportunity of giving. Mr. ROBINgON was quite convinced that the project of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was practicable, but he thought the fullest information should be given to all the parties concerned. Lord ALTHORP entirely approved of the principle of the proposed arrangement, but he wished to call the Right Hon. Gentleman's attention to the plan of converting the stock into terminable annuities. His plan would be, to allow the some rate of interest, but to give the induce ment of a bonus. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER promised to give his best attention to every suggestion upon this subject. Mr. MABERLY expressed his satisfaction that Mr. Briekwood's plan was to be tried. The resolutions in furtherance of the Chancellor of the echequer's proposition were then put, and agreed to.— To Ise, reported on Monday next. SUPPLY.-NAVY ESTIMATES. On the ration of the CHANCELLOR of the EX CHEQUER, the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, when Sir G. CLERK proposed that 57,5601. 15s. be granted far tine salaries of officers and contingent expences of the navy-oface for the current year. Mr. HUME wished to know what saving had accrued from the change, a considerable one he had understood, of two retired Commissioner•. Sir G. CLERK explained that the Navy Board had been, by a late regulation, subdivided, but that in conse quence of the important duties of the Inspector-General and Surveyor, which were entirely professional, it was deemed right to keep the services of other officers which were deemed indispensable. Care would, however, be taken that in all future appointments the rank and salary of these executive professional duties should be less, so as to have the office tilled by master-shipwrights who could carry on these inspections and fully perform the requisite duties. Mr. MABERLY complained of the amount of the superannuations, Which he said had increased instead of diminished. He strongly recommended to Government to adopt some plan by which it s servants m i g h t prov id e f or their own superannuation,. Mr. HERRIES replied that Government had done so. Mr. RUNE asked whether all the officers under Go vernment were obliged to provide for their own super- annuation. Mr. HERRIES--All officers under the Treasury. Mr. kIABERLY imputed all thew improvemems to the Finance Committee, which be was sorry had not been revived. Mr. HUME objected to the number of useless officers in the Admiralty-office. One Secretary for the Admiralty should at least be got rid of. In 1792 the expence of the three departments, Navy-office, Navy Pay-office, and the Admiralty was only 52,0001., and in the present year the charge was 142,0001. Sir B. MARTIN said that the number of Commissioners had been diminished since 1792, and that the public busi ness had increased. Sir H. PARNELL wished to know whether it was the intention of Government to carry into effect the recommen dation of the Finance Committee, with respect to the mode of keeping accounts. Sir G. CLERK said, that it was necessary to bring in a Bill for that purpose, and the Bill was in the course of preparation. He added that the present Accountant-Gene ral of the Navy-office introduced, in lieu of the old system, a very improved system of accounts upon the basis of the double entry. Mr. G. DAWSON defended the conduct of the Trea sury in adopting the system recommended by Messrs. Brooksbank and Belts, and rejecting that which was re commended by the other Commissioner, Mr. Abbott. It was for the Treasury to determine between the two plans, and they adopted, upon mature consideration that which they considered the best. Sir H. PARNELL said, it was plain that the Treasury, in this instance, had acted with too much haste. They should have let the merits of the two systems be tried before they adopted one in preference to the other. They showed too great haste in rejecting the system which in eluded the journal. Mr. BERRIES said the Government had no interest in the matter further than to select the system of keeping accounts which they deemed to be best, and that they had done in selecting the system recommended by Messrs. Brooksbauk and Belts. He (Mr. Herries) conceived the Treasury had been perfectly right in choosing that system. Mr. KEITH DOUGLAS observed, that a great im provement had been introduced by the Treasury within the last three years in the system of keeping accounts in the Navy and other public offices. Mr. MABERLY said, there was no system at all in keeping the accounts in the public offices. The universal system of keeping accounts throughout the commercial world,—the system adopted in France,—throughout Eu rope,—by the East India Company,—and by all merchants, —should have been preferred by the Government to the fanciful system of Messrs Brookshank and Belts. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, when _ _ the two systems were hid before him, he bad no hesitation in giving the preference to the system recommended by Messrs. Brooksbank and Belts ; it had been in operation in all the public offices since the l st of January, and he was confident that at the close of the year the experiment as to its superior merits would prove most satisfactory. Sir J. NVROTTESLEY maintained, that in any depart ment where, in the system of keeping accounts, the journal was excluded, the proper and necessary check could not exist. Any private commercial establishment would be ruined in six months unless a journal was kept. Mr. HUME argued to the same effect. The resolution was then put and agreed to. The next resolution was for a sum of 38,2071. to defray the salaries of officers and other contingencies of the vie- tualling-office. Mr. HUME contended, that this was an unnecessary and expensive office. The Government should do every thing in this way by contract, as was the case in the army. If the Victualling Board was to be kept up, one individual was sufficient to manage it. In reply to a question from Mr. MABERLY, complain ing of the increase of some superannuation allowances, Sir 0. CLERK said that it arose in the following man ner :—The clerks on entering the different offices con nected with the navy were distributed among them accord ing as they belonged to the inferior or the superior departments. If they belonged to the inferior department, they received for the first three years only 90/. a year. For every year they served afterwards, they received an addi tion of I@/. till they reached the maximum allowance of 3001. a year. Thus a clerk must have served twenty-three years before he could obtain 300/. a year in the inferior departments. A similar course was observed in the supe rior departments, where the maximum salary was about 500/. a year. The salaries were placed upon this footing in the year 1816, at which time the clerks appeared to the House to be underpaid. The remuneration which they now received was not greater than their merits. He con- tended that the whole of this Board could not be given up, even supposing that the Victualling Board were in all cases bound to contract for stores and provisions. It would still be wanting to superintend the distribution of stores at the different ports. He likewise pointed out the advantage of the establishment at Deptford in lowering the tenders of the contractors, and stated that it had been round particularly useful in the years 1825 and 1826. Sir J. WROTTESLEY said, that a large capital had been expended in building mills and purchasing corn for the Government. He thought that, upon principle, such things could be best done by contract. If the contracts were improperly executed, had they not inspectors of con tracts to compel their proper execution ? If those in spectors passed bad flour, and that flour were afterwards complained of by the naval officers to whom it was de livered, had not the Government the means of reprimand. ing and dismissing such inspectors ? Letting these matters, however, pass for the present, he would ask the Hon. Baronet to inform him whether a regular mercantile book was kept on behalf of the Government, containing an ac count of the corn bought, the labour employed, and the flour delivered in his lklajesty's yards ? and whether to that account a per centage was added for the capital em ployed ? Sir G. CLERK replied, that there was an exact debtor and creditor account kept of the corn bought and the flour manufactured, together with an account of the salary paid to the master, and all other contingent expences. Mr. HUAIE again contended that the Government ought to contract for the provisions of the navy. The ships of the East India Company were supplied by con tract, and whenever any of the provisions so supplied were found of inferior quality, the contractors were called upon to make the deficiency good. It was impossible for Go vernment to manufacture flour as cheaply at Deptford as individuals could procure it at present in the south of Ire land. That establishment was kept up as a mere pretext, and he was of opinion, that if due economy were used, this victualling department might be reduced at least 50,000/. or 60,0001. Mr. MABERLY was of opinion that though meal might be an exception to the general rule, the present mode of supplying salt meat to the navy was at once unnecessary, useless, and expensive. He bad no doubt that all the manufacturing accounts of Government were losing ac counts. The Hon. Secretary at War had argued some time ago that we ought to keep up a manufactory for swords and cuirasses. He was certain that if the Hon. Secretary were to go into the market, he could purchase them at half the price which he was paying for their ma nufacture.—The vote was then agreed to. The next vote proposed was a grant of 137,4601. for the purpose of defraying the expence of the salaries of officers in the dock-yards at home. Mr. HUME complained of the extravagant amount of this vote. Some years ago it was not more than 25,0001., now it was upwards of 130,0001. He then objected to a charge of 724/. in the Deptford yard for rent and taxes paid to soma officer of the Transport Board. Now he thought that we had premises enough at Deptford, with.. out going to the expence of hiring a house for any officer. Sir G. CLERK gave an explanation of this item, which was not distinctly audible in the gallery. Mr. MABERLY wished to know whether they were to expect any large reduction in these yards as to materials and to artificers. If he understood the evidence of Mr, Barrow rightly, we should not require to have any more ships of the line built after the year 1830, and the yards would not be wanted, except to put down sense large fri gates to meet those which had been lately built by America and France. We had now 350 ships, a larger number than we could man within any short period after the com mencement of a war. Could we, therefore, be justified in keeping up our enormous establishment for shipbuild ing for ever ? From the evidence given by Mr. Barrow he thought that a very large saving indeed might be effected in this department, which had been as slovenly managed as any public department with which he was ac quainted. From the conclusion of the war in 1815, the Admiralty had let the expence of this department go on without examination until the year 1821. Then they found out that a reduction of 60,000/. might be made in it ; but that beneficial discovery was not carried into effect till 1822. A Gallant Admiral, for whom he felt sincere respect, had clearly intimated to the Finance Committee that lie did not think that the Admiralty had done all which they could do in seducing the expenditure of this department, and had expressed an opinion that the Finance Committee should strengthen the hands of the Admiralty, by givinc , an opinion to that effect. He was certain that if the Gallant Admiral would apply himself to the exa mination of the different details of this vote, he would be able to make a large reduction in this head of expenditure, Sir G. COCKBURN complained that the Hon. Mem ber for Abingdon had misrepresented, though he believed very unintentionally, his evidence before the Finance Com mittee. He had said, that we had now a certain number of ships of the line, and that by 1830 all of these would be in a complete state. In stating that, lie by no means meant to assert that all our naval force would by that time be complete : for it happened, that we were at present short of frigates. Besides, though we had 350 ships on the list, they were not all in an efficient state. We must keep up our naval establishment to a certain amount, in reference to the amount of other nations. He did not think that the Hon. Member for Montrose wished to put down the dock-yards entirely. He had himself long been of opinion that the expense of the dock yards might be re duced ; indeed, he had been busily employed in securing their reduction. A proof of it might be seen in the single I,:ct, that Government had lately reduced' 500 salaried officers in the dock-yards, whose salaries amounted to nearly 100,0001. a year, without at all injuring the tffi ciency of the yards. The state of those yards at present by no means answered the description of them at the time when Mr. Barrow gave his evidence. Many reductions had been made since that time, and more were in progress. We had recently completed a new system of frigates, and had reduced this year 120,0001. in the wages, &e., of the yards. There was only one point on which he had wished to strengthen the hands of the Admiralty with greater power. He had told the Committee that it was doubtful to many—it had never been doubtful to him—whether it was proper to discharge from the dock-yards in time of peace those shipwrights whose services we had employed when they were so much wanted during the war. During the present year the Admiralty had taken a very strong mea sure for the better regulation of these artificers. Formerly in the dock-yards every one was allowed to take as many chips away as he could carry. The consequence was that half the time of the workmen was spent in making chips. Now the Admiralty had come to the resolution of giving them an allowance in money instead of this permission, which necessarily led to much waste. Besides a reduc tion of expense in this department might be expected in the ordinary course of nature. The old shipwrights would every day be dying off, and it was not intended to take new ones in their places. Our dock-yard establish- ment, even as at present constituted, was lower than it was in 1803, when Earl St. Vincent reduced it, as some thought, below its proper standard. Mr. HUME said, that he was glad to hear that we had now, in the 15th year of peace, made those reductions which ought to have been made immediately on the termi nation of the war. It was however a severe reflection upon preceding administrations that they had not been made sooner. He wished to know whether there was to be any reduction in the scale of allowances paid to certain officers in the dock-yard at Plymouth, whose rank and emoluments he enumerated at some length. Sir G. CLERK said that no alteration would be made in the scale of those allowances. Some of the offices would be abolished, but the salaries of those which re mained would continue unaltered. The vote was then agreed to. The following resolutions were also agreed to : £458,720 for the wages of artificers and labourers em ployed in the King's yards at home. £680,000 for timber and other materials. £75,000 for piloting and contingent expences. Mr. HUME asked whether it was the intention of Go verninent to revise the bounty on slaves. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that although this country was subject to great expense, in order to suppress the slave trade, he thought it would be unwise to abandon it suddenly. The subject, however, was under the consideration of Government. The following items were also voted without opposition £66,494 for the salaries of officers and contingent ex penses of foreign yards. £61,038 for the salaries of officers and contingent ex peroe• of the victualling-yards. The next vote proposed was for 64,0261. 6s. 7d. to de fray the experiees of the salaries of Officers on the Naval Medical Establishment for 1830. The following vote was for 8451. Ss. 3d., to defray the salaries and expences of the Officers of the Naval College, and the School for Naval Architecture, for 1830. Mr. HUME approved of this vote. He was glad to find that the young men now paid for their education. Formerly this establishment stood the country in 3,2451. a-year, and it was now reduced to 8451. He thought that the Military College ought to be placed en the same footing. The next vote was for 105,0001., to defray the salaries and allowances of the Officers and men on board vessels in ordinary for 1830. The next rote was for 27,8701., for defraying the ex pence of the packet-service in 1830. Sir G. CLERK, in moving for a sum of 854,0001. for defraying the half-pay of naval officers, observed that a re gulation had lately been made, by which promotion in the navy would be retarded, and by that means a great saving would he effected under this head. Mr. HUME said that the regulation alluded to must be of very recent date, for he understood that two promotions had lately been granted at Plymouth, by the Flag Officer, Lord Northesk. Sir G. COCKBURN observed, that the Noble Lord at the head of the Admiralty thought it was but fair towards those individuals to grant them that promotion which they had expected far three years. The next vote was for 296,0631. for superannuations and pensions to naval officers. Mr. STANLEY observed a superannuation allowance of 5001. to 4661. to Mr. W. Shield, and in the next page 5001. to another individual, who had acted as commissioners. He wished for some explanation. Sir G. CLERK answered, that both these parties bad served for a long time—the one at Plymouth, the other at Woolwich and Chatham. Their superannuation allow ance was calculated on the time they had served, and the salary they had received in their civil office. One of them, Mr. Shield, was upwards of 70 years of age, and had been for a long period in the service. His superannuation ' allowance amounted to 4661.; or about 255. day. Mr. HUME said, nothing could be more preposterous than that an officer, living in a dock-yard, and possessing every comfort, should receive a salary of greater amount than if he were employed in serving his country abroad. Sir BYAM MARTIN said, this individual received his superannuation allowance under an Act of Parlia ment—his half-pay was granted for 40 years' service. Sir G. COCKBURN observed, that it was not correct to say that those individuals got double what they would have done bad they continued actively employed i n t h e Navy. Had they remained in the naval service, they would now have been Admirals, with much larger allow.. ances. Mr. Shield was 40 years in the naval service b e _ fore he entered the civil service, in which be had ken 20 years, and he was now nearly 70 years of age. The next vote was the sum of 1,500/., to defray the salaries of chaplains in the naval service. The next vote was 270,0001. towards defraying the expense of the out-pensioners of Greenwich Hospital. Mr. J. E. DENISON complained that, by the existing act of Parliament, a marine, who entered the service at 20 years of age,was entitled to claim his discharge and pension after he had served 21 years. Thus a perfectly healthy man of 41 might claim a salary of 18/., 251., 261., or 27/., according to circumstances. When such a man returned to his native village, he found his old companions scarcely receiving for their laborious exertions as large an income as his retired allowance. Sir G. COCKBURN said the pensions were under con sideration. Some alteration would probably take place in ie act of Parliament to which the Hon. Member had alluded. The next vote proposed was for the sum of 174,5541. 9i. 4d. to defray the superannuations granted to commhsion2rs, clerks, &c. formerly employed in the civil departments of the navy. . . . Sir R. HERON said he hoped that, in proposing the motion of which he had given notice, he would not be deemed trespassing improperly or unnecessarily on the time of the House, while he made a few observations. In the first place, he would say, it was not his fault that the motion had not been brought forward at an earlier period. He had given many successive notices of the motion be meant to propose; but circumstances prevented him from introducing it sooner. He considered the proposition which he was about to submit to the committee as one of very considerable importance; but he feared that its im portance would not be increased, in consequence of the subject being taken up by so humble an individual as him self. He observed in the estimate which they were now called on to vote, lie saw the names of two indivi dividuals, the Honourable R. Dundas, and the Honour able W. L. B ithurst, to the former of whom was granted a pension of 500/., and to the latter a pension of 4001., making a total charge of 9001. on the country. This charge he wished to have disallowed by the House. The former of those gentleman was a reduced commis sioner of the navy, the latter was a reduced commis sioner in the victualling department. The column in which the time of service was usually marked was in those two instances left blank, and he concluded that this gave a very proper description of the services of those gentlemen—(Laughter) — tor essential they certainly were not.—(Hear, and laughter.)—These situations appeared to have been created purposely for the parties; it was shortly after found necessary to abolish them; and then these pensions were created. They had heard much of the constant assiduity and labour which Ministers showed in considering what places and pensions should he abolished, without detriment to the public service. Now, he, for one, acknowledged that he was somewhat astonished, when he found that the amount of eaving effected by all this anxiety was a little more than 1,000,000/. of money; and he must say that he thought the case desperate when he saw these pensions granted in the last }ear. -In speak ing of those pensions he knew very well that the sum of 9001. was a mere trifle in the expenditure of the country. But a grant, though small in amount, might be mon strous in principle.—(Hear, hear.).—To those young gen tlemen he imputed no blame ; the blame must fall on the _Ministers, and on two of them particularly--he meant the fathers of those individeals.—(Hear, bear.)—lt was well known that the two lathers were noblemen, who, for a great number of years, occupied, with little inter mission, some of the most important situations in the Government. Viscount Melville, at the present moment, presided as First Lord of the Admiralty, and Earl Bathurst was now Lord President of the Council, one of the Tellers of the Exchequer, and joint Cletk of the Crown. —(Hear, hear.) --Their grandfathers were also men of high consideration. One of them for many years filled the situation of Lord High Chancellor of England, and the other was a sort of Viceroy of Scotland, holding places which produced great emoluments, and performing services which were rather equivocal.—(Hear,and laughter. )—Now that these gentlemen, gorged with the public money, should require for their families, or even condescend to ac cept, such miserable pensions—( Hear, hear)—and that, too, in a time of public distress, did appear to him, and he would not shrink from expressing his opinion, neither would he state it more harshly than the case required, but it did appear to him to be paltry.—(Hear, hear.)-- Though, abstractedly considered, these pensions might seem small, yet they might be viewed as very large when they were compared with the remuneration of a vast num ber of persons whose services had been most brilliant, and whose exertions had added to the greatness of the country. He would take the liberty of naming one or two of those individuals, and he had not the least hesitation in naming them, for these were men who could not be mentioned without awakening recollections of national glory, and ex citing feelings of admiration and gratitude. There were Admiral Bowen and Admiral Barlow—the one 40 years, the other somewhat less than 20, in the civil service of the navy—the former had a pension of 8001., the latter a pension of 430/. per annum. It was true, indeed, that Admiral Barlow had his half-pay in addition to his pension of 450/. To Mr. Dundas a pension of 5001. was granted, but be believed that he held the situation of Commissioner for a very short time ; and during the time he held it, if he mistook not, that gentleman was engaged on two diplo matic missions.--(" No, no," from the Ministerial benches )—He was employed at least on one ; but if he re collected accurately, he had gone to St. Petersburgh with the Duke of Devonshire, on one mission, and with Lord Heytesbury on another. He would next call the attention of the House to that meritorious officer, Sir T. Foley, who had his half-pay of '7501, and Sir Thomas Hardy, the Captain of the great Nelson, who had 4501. per an num.—(Hear, hear.)—These were men who had served their country in every climate, and who had asserted her honour in many a bloody action.—(Hear, hear.)—The places given to Mr. Dundas and to Mr. Bathurst were places held during pleasure. It was, therefore, perfectly in the power of his Majesty's Ministers to dismiss them with or without pension, according to the service which they had performed. But what must the people think of the professions made by Ministers when pensions like these were granted—pensions that were without precedent— pensions for which no adequate service had been rendered ? —(Hear, hear.)—Now, he would ask, on what ground was it possible that these pensions could have been given ? Could the act be defended on the ground of custom ? He believed not ; but even if it could, he was not aware of any abuse in existence that might not be defended, cer tainly not justified, on that ground. He would ask whet was the use of talking of an alleviation of the sufferings of the people, when pensions such as these were al lowed ? These individuals were first improperly placed in these situations, and, when they were removed from them, they were with equal impropriety pensioned on the country. By such a system, a number of persons belonging to that noble profession the navy, who had infi nitely higher claims to office, and were at least equally cal culated to act in office, were excluded from beneficial em ployment. For he would say, that no young men were better educated, for all useful purposes, than those who entered the navy now were--(Hear.) He really hoped and trusted that the Members of that House would, this night, by their vote, put an end to such a lavish and im proper use of the public money. He trusted, that in this case at least, they would chew some fellow-feeling for their constituents, and prove that they were anxious to repre sent their wishes and to relieve their wants. He would say nothing farther on the subject, except by repeating his opinion, and it was a strong one,—that the grant and ex istence of these pensions were highly improper, and that the conduct of those who acquired them for their families who had no just claim on the public, and who could not possibly want them, was such as he could not denominate otherwise than as paltry.—(Hear, bear.) In his mind, also, ministers, in allowing grants of this nature, were guilty of a mockery of the public distress.—(llear, hear.) He then moved, " That the proposed grant of 174,584/. 9s. 4d. should be reduced by deducting from it the sum of 900/." The question having been put,— The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER begged to assure the Hon. Baronet that he was not one of those who imputed blame to him for the delay that had taken place in bringing on the present discussion—he was aware that the delay had been occasioned by an unwillingness to impede the public service by interposing unnecessary ob stacles to the progress of the estimates. He felt anxious to address the Committee on this particular subject, because he thought the Hon. Baronet laboured under an erroneous impression, in which, in all probability, other Hon. Members participated, as to the conduct of the Trea sury in giving its sanction to this vote being submitted to Parliament. He thought he should best satisfy the Committee by stating the circumstances of the case, and the grounds on which the Treasury had proceeded in this particular instance, laying aside, as he intended to do, much of the extraneous matter which the Hon. Ba ronet had introduced in the course of his speech.—(Cries of " No," and laughter.)—He said " extraneous," because he did not conceive it to be his duty, in considering cases of superannuation such as the present, to examine whether the ancestor of an individual had been Lord High Chan cellor of England, or had held a high office in Scotland ; it Was not his duty to decide the case by the pedigree of an individual.—(Hear.)—The Treasury had dealt with the case by a reference to considerations which would have applied equally to the lowest or the highest person in the King's dominions, and he was not conscious of any error in this. The present discussion arose from a considerable reduction which Government thought it their duty to make in the civil department of the navy. Two Com missioners of the Navy Board, and one Commissioner of the Victualling Department, had been reduced. It ap peared proper to select the two persons in question for re duction ; one of the gentlemen, who was a Commissioner of. the Navy Board, was appointed to an office then vacant, consequently the charge of his salary as a Commissioner was extinguished without deduction on account of allow ance. There remained the other two Commissioners whose names had been introduced on this occasion to be dealt with, and their cases were brought before the Treasury. As to the precise nature of the services of these indi viduals, he was not prepared to answer.—(" Hear," from the Opposition. )—He thought it rather unfortunate that the length of their services bad not been stated in the estimate, but he believes that their services was of about four years' duration, the appointments having taken place in 1825. In considering these cases, the Treasury felt bound to adhere to the principle on which, upon the reduction of Boards at former times, officers had received allowances. Here he might observe, that offices of this description, although technically speaking held during pleasure, were always considered as granted for the life of the party, or during good behaviour. The reductions in the members of the Revenue Board had been considered on the same ground as the present, and they proceeded on the principle of effecting a considerable saving in the public expenditure by the removal from office of several persons, who, be it remembered, had embarked in their several employments with the idea that their si tuations were to be permanent.--(Hear, hear.)—The Treasury was the more disposed to adopt this view of the case, because persona embarking in such offices frequently abandoned some profession which they had previously em braced, and lost those opportunities of advancement which they would otherwise have had in their several professions. ' These two gentlemen were precisely in that situation. Mr. Bathurst, although called by the lion. Baronet a very young gentleman, had been a considerable time at the bar. —(Laughter.)—h e really did not sea what there was to attract Hon. Gentlemen's laughter in the circumstance of a gentleman pursuing an honourable pr-)fession. It might appear ridiculous to some Hon. Members ; but to him it seemed an honourable path for a man to pursue, whatever night be hiA rank in life.—(Hear.)—Mr. Bathurst and Mr. Dundas, who had both embarked in different profes sions, abandoned them on being put into the situations of Commissioners of the Navy, and the principle of compen sation and allowances, when reduced, applied perfectly to them. The Commissioners who were appointed several years ago to inquire into several of our public establish ments, with a view to reduction, recommended an allow anee of two-thirds of the usual salary, where the service had been for a less period than 20 years, and three-fourths where the period of service extended to wore than that time. In looking at other easel, of reduction, where it was recom- pointed to the first civil situations which should fall vasoi mended to abolish inferior offices, and where allowances of in the naval department. an inferior rate were granted, it appeared that persons ' Mr. H. DUNDAS (as we were told) sal, that he holding subordin a te o ffi ces in the customs for a l e ss s h ou ld no t h ave i ntru d e d hi mse lf upon the Ho but Of period than t en y ears were t o h ave h a lf t h e i r sa l ary , an d t h e unnecesary personality in which the Hon. Bur et wile those who had serv e d l onger were t o have toss,-thirds. brought f orwar d th e su bj ect had thought groper to 1 0 ' Now the Tree:tie/ in dealing with the present cases did 1 indulge.—(Cries of " No, no.")—N o ! Why the' Hoe. it4ii -not avail itself of the rule laid down with respect to corn- i Baronet had describ e d th e gen tl eman t o w h om b e all u d e d missioners and high o ffi cers remove d f rom th e pu bli c ser- !as the son of a Noble Lord who held office, and as the, vice, but looked to th e lo wes t s ca l e th a t app li e d t o cub- ' grandso n o f anot h er N o bl e L ord whom he called a sort 0' ordinate offices. Besides, it was insisted that the Admi- Viceroy of Scotland, of somewhat equivocal servicea ratty should appoint these two gentlemen (who had been New it was impossible to mistake the allusion which the so reduced) to offices as they became vacant, in order to Hon. Baronet intended to convey by the words " equivo relieve the country from the charge of their allowances.— cal services ;" but he thought he might confidently Appel , ' (Hear.)—lf the Treasury were to be guided by the rule to the result of the circumstances to which the Hon. Ifs' antecedently adopted, it should not decide diff e rently in ronet alluded, as a complete answer to the calumny , ' different cases, according to the rank of the parties, and (Hear, bear.)—ln describing the Noble Lord—for whose it was fully justified in submitting the present vote to the memory he could not but feel the deepest respect—as lisir- Committee. Let him advert to one circumstance which ing been a viceroy in Scotland, the Hon. Baronet had cell at least showed that there was no wish to benefit particular given him an occasion to say, that he was proud of such individuals in the present instance; but the object was to an ancestor. The support which that Noble Lord re' effect a saving in the public expenditure. What would ceived from the people of Scotland during his lifetime have been more easy than to have made this arrangement and the monument which had been raised to his m e mory on the footing of former arrangements of a similar nature, in that country since his death, were sufficient proofs of and taking as objects of reduction pers ons w h o h a d serve d th e est i mat i on i n w hi c h hi s noble ancestor was held i n longer th an these individuals, to have granted a larger Scotland.—(Hear, hear.) allowance to them, and to have still retained these two gen- Mr. MABERLY said, that this question had been tlemen as commissioners at their full salaries. This was on argued as though the vote were one of course, whereas it the supposition that the Treasury was inclined to do what was clearly subject to the determination of the House. was incorrect. But it had acted differently, and solely Sir R. HERON and Mr. Puce rose together, but the with a view to public advantage.—(Hear.) —ln the other latter gave way. case Ministers would have imposed a heavier charge upon Sir R. HERON, in explanation, begged to say, that the public, but the present course showed that they had a when he called the late Lord Melville, a sort of Viceroy of bona _fide intention to advance the public service, and pay Scotland, he alluded to an office and to duties which 0 0 the utmost attention to principles of economy.—(Hear, longer existed. As to the expression " equivocal set hear.)—He had stated the history of the transactions, and vices," lie could assure the Hon. Member (Mr. H. Dun' trusted the House would consider it on the same principle das) he had no intention of hinting at the circumstance. as any other similar case. If gentlemen had the fortune to which the Hon. Member had alluded. Indeed, that or misfortune to be born of honourable families,—if their circumstance never once entered his mind.—(Hear.) ancestors had distinguished themselves in the service of the But his meaning was, that the late Lord Melville, belong' public, lie confessed be could not see either in the cir- ing to a particular party, his services were, however sr cumstances of their families or of the service of their an- proved by that party, equivocal. . cestors, any thing to disentitle those gentlemen to the fair Mr. PEEL said, he was glad he had given way to the consideration which the House would be prepared to afford Hon. Baronet, whose explanation, he was sure, must be in another case. satisfactory to the Hon. Gent. who had expressed himself Sir G. CLERK observed that whatever blame was im- on the subject with a degree of warmth that the circume putable on the ground of the omi ss i on o f th e l engt h o f stances undoubtedly justifi e d. Th e H on . M em b er (M r . service of Mr. Dundas and Mr. Bathurst in the estimate Hobhouse) was mistaken in supposing that he disapproved attached to him. It was intended that the period of these of the proposition ; but he could assure that Hon. Member gentlemen's service should appear, and the Hon. Comp_ that be was not insensible to the value of that independent support which, the Hon. Memb er t ru ly sa id, th e presen t troller of the Navy had brought him a c o py fill e d up with these itetes, but, owing to a mistake of his own, a Government had received. Most sorry should he be to lose rough copy in which they were omitted had been brought such support; and never, to the latest day of his existence , down. could be forget the conduct pursued by the gentlemen oil the other side of the House on the great measure of lot session. The manner in which, the gentlemen opposite gave their support to the Government at that time could never be forgotten by him ; and he thought that the c one duct pursued by those gentlemen on that occasion reflecte d the highest credit on the political parties of this country. With respect to the present proposition, he agreed witlt, the Hon. Member who sp o k e l as t, as t o t h e nature 0' it. It was only a proposition made by the Government , which the House would reject or allow as it thought fit. It was a mere estimate, which, if the House thought, improper, it would be its duty t o re j ec t. H e b egge d 0' lion. Members, however, to consider what the real us' ture of the proposition was, before they came to a decision on it. It was a proposition which arose out of a revisioa of the establishments of the country which the. Govern" ment had thought it their duty to make. The course which had been pursued in this case by his Majesty's Ali - , nisters, had been to t a k e awa y th e y oungest o ffi cers, an', instead of a salary of 1,0001. to g i ve th em 4501., u nti l some other employment offered for them. But the aneh t question was the intention of his Majesty's Ministers ilt the measure, and he would read to the Committee the of ficial correspondence which bad taken place respecting it. —(The Right Hon. Gentleman here read the lettersaihich passed between the Admiralty and the Treasnry, and the minute of the latter.)—These allowances were in confor mity to the rule of former Governments; they were not the result of any special rule of the existing Governments nor any job. This was the material point of the question —it was a positive hardship on the-sons of Cabinet Mi nisters. The Committee would allow he had not attempts to bias its opinion by any appeal to the passions ; but be must say, that considering the difficulties attending the making reductions, it was not quite right to embarras s the Government when they attempted to effect them. lie hoped he had said enough to convince the House that his Majesty's Ministers had not been influenced by any corrupt motive in this transaction. Lord ALTHORP observed, that the House had a right to investigate all the circumstances of these pensions, which, in his opinion, ought not to be granted. Thee question was now loudly called for ; and the Cols mittee divided, when there appeared— ' For the amendment Against it s 121 Mr. C. WOOD was of opinion that the transaction in question was blameable, but, at the same time, thought that the fault did not attach to any particular Member of the Cabinet, but to Ministers generally, for sanctioning a vote which involved a most extraordinary principle of superannuations and allowances. Although it did not appear on the estimates what had been the length of service of these two gentlemen, it was stated that it did not ex ceed four years. Was that, he asked, a fair period of service for which to grant an allowance? This was to extend the terms of the Act of Parliament under which superannuations were granted, and involved an unjustifi able departure from its principles. It had been said that these gentlemen had given up professions and embarked in these offices for life, to the exclusion of other prospects. Unfortunately, however, for this statement, we found one of the gentlemen, subsequently to his appointment as Com missioner, accepting a diplomatic situation—(Hear, and cries of " No")—at least he gave up his office, and ac cepted a situation in a diplomatic mission, and now he was to be compensated for the loss of an office to which he could not be fairly said to devote his time, having been put into another situation.—(Hear, hear.)—When he looked at the enormous amount of superannuations, lie thought we should not be justified if we did not mark by our vote the utmost reprobation of this transaction which we could. Colonel SIBTFIORP had heard with astonishment the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, charge the Hon. Baronet with introducing extraneous matter into his statement. Never was there a more plain unvarnished tale than that of the Hon. Baronet. On the contrary, the Right Hon. Gentleman's statement was full of extraneous matter. The Right Hon. Gentleman said he would be extremely glad that the case of the highest and the lowest individual should be considered on the same footing, simply in reference to the circumstances of it. He (Colonel Sibthorp) hoped it always would be so. But pen sions and allowances ought to be granted for public services and casualties, and what could we say when we found pensions of 4001. and 500/. granted to individuals, for what ?—for doing nothing at all.—(Heat. )__The Hon. Member proceeded to say, he had submitted a memorial of the strongest nature to the Government with respect to an individual of uuimpeached character, who was 84 years of age, and had served thirty years in the army, applying for an addition of a paltry sixpence a-day to the allowance of this highly respectable individual, and what answer did he receive ? That no additional grant could be afforded. And why ? Because this person had been worn out in the public service.—(Hear.)—Here were two Hon. Gentle• men of noble descent, the sons of Members of a Ministerial party, and they got 9001. a year for haring done nothing. By the way, if they had not been sons of Ministers, per haps they would not have obtained their allowances quite so readily. The Hon. Member went on to read the memorial of Serjeant Duncan Macdonald (already alluded to). It stated that the petitioner was an out-pensioner of Chelsea Hospital; that he had been 17 years in the 66th Regi ment of Foot, and had served five years in the West Indies; and that he was 13 years drill serjeant of the South Lin colnshire militia.—(Laughter.)—Gentlemen might laugh at this mention of an old Constitutional force, which it was the fashion to treat with contempt in that House, notwithstanding we might one day want it. The Hon. and Gallant Member again referred to the memorial, which stated that memorialist was 84 years of age, and in a state of blindness, and prayed for some further allowance. The Hon. Member then read the answer to the memorial, in which it was stated, that the petitioner had been discharged in consequence of being worn out in the service, and not for the disabilities of which he now complained; and on this ground, that he was not entitled to an increase of al lowance, having received his full share at the period of his discharge. Here was an individual worn out, after a ser vice, not of four, but of seventeen years, and yet he was refused an addition of sixpence a day, while Ihese g en tl e • men had 900/. a year between them. ye felt that he was discharging his duty in what he was saying, and, while he was assured of that, the smiles or the frowns of the House were alike indifferent to him.—(Laughter.) Mr. HOBHOUSE said, that whatever opinions might be entertained in the House upon this subject, there was but one opinion upon it out of doors. It might be unfor tunate that tho period of there gentlemen's services was omitted : it might be unfortunate that they were the sons of Cabinet Ministers ; it might be unfortunate that they held other places ; but of this he was quite sure,—namely, that all these unfortunate circumstances made it very un fortunate that the country should be so governed. It was quite impossible that these appointments could be defended ; the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not defended them ; the Right Hon. Secretary (Mr. Peel) would not defend them. Indeed, while the Chancellor of the Exchequer was speaking, he thought he saw upon the cheek of the Right Hon. Secretary something like the blush of shame, which seemed to say, " A profligate case has happened once, but it shall not happen again : erubuit—salva res est. He thought it very creditable to the Right Hon. Secretary that he•had not risen to defend this proposition. He knew nothing of these gentlemen personally, and be did not deal with the question personally; but he could help seeing that one of them held a place of 1,0001. a year, and that the same gentleman had held another situation—that of Commissioner of Bankrupts. He did not mean to say that there was any intention to create in this country what were formerly called in France " Ministerial families;" but lie begged to ask, what the public would think when they found that inin were placed on a level with persons who had performed great public services, merely because they happened to be sprung from certain ancestors. Such a system would and must discourage the servants of the public. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had told them that they Lad laughed because they had found a scion of a noble house taking up an honourable profession. But they had not laughed at that, nor had they laughed at a noble scion abandoning that profession. What they had laughed at, and what the country would laugh at, if these votes were passed, was, that noble scions who could not get briefs at the bar, managed to get themselves on the pension list. v e r n He so t before would receivedven u r e s 0 0 0 p an po y rt Go s - s m m o y ch tha in t de n p e must cease when it was found that the pension lists were the present Government had received ; but that support filled with the sons of the colleagues of the Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite. evnerdeihitadsu Majority against Ministers The announcement was received with loud Cheers. On our return to the gallery the Committee were dis cussing the next item—namely, 99,000/. for the works of the dock-yards. A conversation took place between Mr. Hume, Sir G. Clerk, Sir G. Cockburn, Sir M. W. Ridley, Mr. Bright, and Mr. Moberly, but the noise presented us from hear ing its object. Mr. MARERLY, as we understood, intimated his in• tention of opposing, hereafter, the grant of 23,457/. for building a naval hospital at Malta. After a few words from Mr. Hume, Mr. R. Gordon, Mr. Croker, Mr. Bright, and the Chancellor of the Ex• chequer, the vote was postponed. Sir J. GRAHAM took that opportunity to give notice that he should move for the abolition of the office of Lieu tenant-General of the Ordnance when the ordnance esti• mates should be regularly brought before them. The House then resumed, Sir A. GRANT reported pro gress, and the report was ordered to be received on Mon day next. On the motion of Mr. MABERLY, were ordered copier of correspondence relative to the naval hospital at Malta. The other Orders of the Day were subsequently disposed of, and the House adjourned at One o'clock. r OF THE MINO NHO VOTED (ON THE IN WOE ♦ COMMITTER LIS OF SEVENTY-EIGHT, ' P. THOMSON'S MOTH STATE OF TAXATION. Anson, Hon. G. Grant, Rt. Hon. C. Benett, John Grant, R. Bernal, R. Guise, Sir W. Bentinck, Lord G. Howick, Lord Burdett, Sir F. Hume, Joseph Blandford, Marquis Hobhouse, J, _C Birch, J. Honywood, W. P. Byng, George Huskisson, Rt. Hon.l Baring, F. W. Blake, Sir F. Jephson, C. D. Bankes, H. Labouchere, H. Carter, J. Lloyd, Sir E. P. Clive, E. B. Lester, B. Clifton, Viscount Lamb, Hon. G. Cholmeley, M. Littleton, E. J. Cavendish, H. L u ml e y. J. S. Cavendish, C. Lennard, T. B. Cavendish, W. Morpeth, Viscount Canning, Sir S. Maberly, J. Calthorpe, Hon. A, Nugent, Lord Davies, Col. O'Grady, Col. Denison, J. E. Price, R. Denison, W. J. , Parn e ll, Si r H . Duncombe, T. ' Philips, O. R. Dickinson, W. Palmerston, Vise, Ewart, W. Ponsonby, Hon. G. Ehrington, Viscount Pendarves, E. W. Fazakerley, J. N. Palmer, C. F. Fortescue, Hon. G. Pallrner, C. N. Fyler, T. B. Poynts, W. S sTii MARCO )OR NO , '0 INQUIRR INTO THIg Protheroe, E. Phillimore, Dr. Russell, L ord John Rumbold, C. E. Rice, T. S. Robinson, G. R. Stanley, Hon. E. G. Stanley, Lord Smith, Vernon Sandon, Viscount Towns hend, Lord C. Tomes, J. Uxbridge, Earl of Villiers, it . H. Warburton, H, Wood, C. Wilson, Sir R. Webb, E. Wilbraham, G. Warrender, Sir G. TELLERS. Althorp, Viccount IThomson, C. P. PAIRED OFF. Robarts, A, W Marjoribanks, S. Philips, Sir G. Beaumont, T. W. For some time past information has been re ceived by Mr. Powara., the Solicitor of the Mint, of a for midable gacg of utterers of base coin, who have been cir culating their spurious metal to a very considerable amount through the county of Hertford, and had escaped pursuit till Tuesday last, when the High Constable of Cheshuut succeeded in apprehending them in the Market-place at Hertford.—.Their names are—JAants MAHEW, THomAS Tomcats, and hams BRETT. They are in Hertford gaol, awaiting their trials. The. Government steani-vessel Cornet arrived at Falmouth on the 24th inst., with mails from Corfu to the 3d inst., from lialta to 7th, and from Gibraltar to the 16th. She was obliged to put into Cadiz for fuel, and sailed from that port on the 18th. The intelligence brought by this arrival is not of any importance; but the celerity of the conveyance has attracted a good deal of at tention among the M editerranean merchants. This is the first experiment made of a plan to substitute steam Davi gation in lieu of the tardy mode of conveyance hitherto existing between the Post -offic e here and our settlements in the Mediterranean. The result has been such as to justify the hope generally :expressed in the city,that no delay will be suffered to take place before the plan is per manently fixed upon and put into f u ll o p era ti on. With the exception of the remarkably quick voyage latelyper , formed by a merchant b r i g ca ll e d t h e D e l os, i n 24 days, from the river to Smyrna, the passage of the Coniet ie considered th e mos t expe di t i ous t h at i s remem b ere d to lave taken place within several years back between this country and the Mediterranean. Sir G. CLERK begged to call the attention of the Committee to the real question before them, that question was, whether there was any thing in the situations of these gentlemen which ought to induce the House to re fuse in their case what they would not refuse in similar cases. There was no instance in which persons who had been removed inconsequence of the abolition of offices hav ing been denied some remuneration. Such was the pre sent case. The allowance, moreover, was purely of a temporary nature ; for these two persona were to 1/0 ap- , let(