The Sun. — London, England, 1830-04-03 00:00:00

'P t~ & sere D' lte co r i o Radio' and per; hem. °mot 1/1 ould poY, or.aidero o the Ad' f it wer i ain ; I the By would b reforto •es of tb Dn the le Fried vas ind that tb4 vhich tY had d Comm' rt, sure divisiob onunocl manse i and St' a Nob] note tb this Bit oned. IT). , the ril l I, for tIO ted to b i rmarket. anotbe r treeniel3l )ng beel l the 0011 n day. ager ford •ere ing Ohl eornpeo' ILES'S, 'ding 01 nst it• e Bill be ich Mr. f 34. 34 HUMS rated sl :i4ely and St' worded► ild p oi' the Bill to 251.0 1 he Bil l a s the Let rote ky eucb igh Of time di f Moo' d to be ady rot thel el, ig until entiork, riety Ix hut' ad be• 1 third not 10 ,nveni. 'me 0 ro, is at for )m.tbe els, in irning er es- mans" in •bbe opoly. frors i Civil etition might hitby, x. nanu- York, Vier Might Resent Hull, ien 01 tee. d. inioti s any 1821 FREIGHTS, to 1824. Memel £l 3 3 Petersburgh ... 4 1 10 America... ..... 2 4 9 the tios. ng bi 4 ly is 'tiro quarters. The one by the extension of foreign :'• int& in every direCtion in which it could by possibility be extended; the other by the removal of every burden upon • 'them-which it was possible to remove. With respect to • tho first point, he looked with considerable hope to the 'alterations which he trusted would be consequent on the •renewal of the East India Company's Charter. He should be grievously disappointed, and so he was persuaded would the petitioners too, if, on the renewal of the Charter, Bri tish ships and seamen were any longer prevented from going to any part of India or China to which the ships ' and seamen of every other country might go. Not only would such a change be highly advantageous to the general commercial interests of the country, but would remove a restriction which must be galling to British seamen, who saw the natives of other countries enjoying a free trade to India and -China from which they were excluded. He hoped, therefore, to see our foreign trade extended by the alteration which he had de scribed ; and he also hoped that it would be extended in other ways, and especially by the cultivation of a closer commercial intercourse with the States of South America. With respect to the other quarter from which the petitioners might expect relief, he thought there were many burdens upon them which might either be taken off or diminished. One was the large expenditure to which they were subjected by light-house dues.--( Hear, hear.) The proprietors of some of the light-houses received re venues so enormous from these dues ; so much so as tc excite general indignation among those who were interested in the subject, and to demand some investigation.—(Hear, hear.) Another great expence to which they were sub jected arose from the rules about pilotage. Another source of expence was the Greenwich chest, to which every seaman of a merchant vessel paid sixpence a month out of his wages, although our mercantile navy derived no benefit whatever from that establishment. A far more important , subject of consideration, however, was the reduction of some of the duties which pressed so heavily on the peti tioners. Why was the hemp duty kept up to so enormous a height ? By a reduction of that duty a great reduction would of course take place in the cost of cordage, sails, and other articles of marine equipment. Then there was another duty, the abolition of which had been so pro perly recommended by the H on . M em b er f or t h e C i ty of London —he meant the stamps on Marine Insurances.— Another measure which was very advisable was an equz.- lization of the duties on timber and on deals. Why tim ber in the solid block should be subject to a larger duty than when the same timber was cut np into deals, he knew not, but such was the fact ; and he should be glad to hear a reason aesigned for it by any Hon. Member con nected with the Revenue Department. There was ano ther subject also, on which he himself entertained great doubts, but which the shipowners were very desirous to press. Be alluded to a relaxation in the bonding system. He trusted that an opportunity would be taken during the present Session to take these subjects into consideration, and that measures would be adopted, some immediate, some gradual in their effects, some more, some less exten sive, for the relief of the deeply-suffering shipping in terest. That their distress was great no one had at tempted to deny, no one could attempt to deny, In his conscience he believed that that distress was increasing, that it was worse this year than the last ; and that unless some remedy were speedily applied, it would be destroyed altogether. In proof of this statement, he would take the liberty of reading to the House an extract of a letter which he had received from a very respectable corre spondent at Hull, respecting the state of the shipping in terest there. If the particulars which his correspondent stated were erroneous, there were, no doubt, Hon. Mem beri present who would expose them. To show that the rater of freight had greatly decreased, while the expense of provisions and wages had greatly increased during the last nine years, his correspondent had drawn up the fol lowing table of the average rate of freights, provisions, and wages, from 1821 to 1824, and front 1826 to 1829, all inclusive : 1826 to 1829.9 7 Memel 1 0 1 Petersburgh America 1 15 9 ---- Difference. 6 6 7—Xl 3 o=ls '7 7per cent. diminish. PROVISIONS AND WAGES. 1821 to 1824. 4 19 4 Pork Bread Wages . . 12 1828 to 1829.0 10 Beet... ........... 5 15 3 Pork .......... 4 110 Bread ...... .... 0 18 10 Wages.... .... .... Differenee. 13 15 11—£1 15 I=l4 11 4 per cent. Increase. 29 18 11 pr cent. against the ship-owners. Was it surprising, that perso ns , who thus saw th e i r pro perty slipping , through the i r hands, should be. earnest with the L e g is latu re to inquire int o th e pract icability of adopt ing some means of averting the ruin with which they were threatened ? When they saw bow greatly the shipping interest had been depreciated within a few years, would not the House think that it was a case which imposed upon them the necessity of turning their minds to the se rious consideration of the subject? The petitioners stated that their property was rapidly slipping out of their bands, that they were reduced almost to beggary, and that with out some relief their situation was hopeless. Under these circumstances, he felt justified in imploring the House to listen to the prayer of the petition; and to turn their minds to the best means of remedying the evils which were en dured by an interest so intimately connected with the strength, prosperity, and glory of the country. On the motion that the petition be brought up, A 3l.Estarta, whose name we could not learn, observed that, from his own knowledge he could say that the state ments of the petition were perfectly well founded. Mr. ROBINSON having been requested by the ship owners to support the petition did so with great plea sure. When the subject was brought before the House in the Session before the last, it was said that the shipping interest was recovering. So far, however, was that from being the case, that the depression of that interest had been continually going on. He was the more induced to address the House on the present occasion, because last year the Hon. Member for Liverpool had stated that he did not believe that the shipping interest was so depressed as it was represented to be, because they went on building ships at an increased rate. He (Mr. Robinson) thought at the time that the Hon. Gentleman's assertion was incorrect; and on a reference to the financial statements of 1827, 1828, and 1 829, he found that a most alarming falling off had taken place in the number of ships built. He had that he fo day se en a f urt h er fi nanc i al statement, and und that the building of ships had continued to :fall off since last year to a degree which, con sidering the great importance of the shipping inte rest to the country, loudly demanded investigation 11e found in the financial statement to which he had al luded, that in the year/ending the sth of January, 1827, there were built 1,719 ships, having an admeasurement of 207,088 tons; that in the year ending the sth of January, 1828, there were built 1,440 ships, having an admeasure ' Went of 163,946 tons ; that in the year ending the sth of January, 1829, there were built only 1,185 ships, hav ing an admeasurement of 128,752 tons ; and that in the 'Nit' ending the sth of January, 1830, there were built 941 Y 1,075 ships, having an admeasurement of 110,681 tons- By this statement it appeared, therefore, that in the course of three pars there had been a diminution of . nearly a half in the amount of tonnage of ships built. This diminution showed the state of the shipping interest. It was a much better .criterion than the mere employment of s hiPa- Every one acquainted with the subject was aware that, while ships existed, unless employed they must be abandoned altogether as property. The Hon. Member for Hutt had said that he differed from the peti tioners on what was called the reciprocity system. He (Mr. Robinson) did not attribute all the evils which the 'petitioners were suffering to that system, but he contended that the reciprocity system had greatly increased their dif ficulties and distress ; for how was it possible that ships of built and navigated at an expellee a third greater than that Polfor.eign hipping, and subject to additional charges for k-i" of insurance and other matters, could compete -witthat tforeign shipping ? He had examined the official returns o f shipping which had entered inwards, and - cleared United outwardsKinsi' • in 1829, in the various ports of the King 'il, from Sweden, Norway, Denmark, and Russia andd of t h e British shippin which bad enter e d in - wards, cleared o u twards, in g the same • urns it period. F rom those ret • appeared that 1,946 forei(rn vessels, and O nly 1,164 British vessels, had entered inCards; that the Only 1,16 . 1 of-the former was 293,402 tons, and of the latter 18 7,852 by, 14,570"8; and that the former were navigated appeared th rn it e t n , , l sad the latter by 8,55 t. It also 267,579 tons, aal:i vh , measuring foreign vessels, cleared outwards ; iin2avigated by 13,425 men, ha d turilig 139,462 tans, ande only 1,023 British vessels, mea , cleared outwards. - These at 11" proved, that with respect least, the reciprocity system had occalioned a competition interest.- -Ha certainly injurious to our shipping . "la not go into the principle of the reciprocity system in general, nor into the Reciprocity Treaty with Austria, which was laid on the table of the House by the Right Hon. Gentleman only last night; but he must be allowed to say, that he thought it strange that this country should throw open all her ports to Austria-- a nation which had but three ports to open to us in re turn, and these three, Fiume, Trieste, and Venice, were free ports to all the world already. The declension in ship building was general throughout the country ; and this was not a time to be granting concessions to foreign States. It was stated in a petition on the table of the House, that in the port of Whitby alone, where there had been eight ship-building yards, besides slips, which employed one thousand men, there had been three of the docks given up, two were about to be abandoned ; and that, in a short period, unless something were done, the whole of the docks would be abandoned. Not only was the shipping interest depressed, but every branch of the national wealth was passing away, and the general distress was increasing. The ship-building employed a very great number and va riety of manufacturers, not only in the direct and imme diate construction of the vessels, but in making those things which were used in relation to the equipment of vessels; and it occasioned the circulation of vast sums throughout the country. The subject was in every respect well worthy of the attention of Ministers, and of every gentleman in that House; nor would Government be doing their duty to the country, if they neglected to esta blish the most thorough investigation into the case. He had often heard it asked, upon this and upon similar cases brought forward in that House, what good could inquiry do? He would answer the question by asking another. What harm could inquiry do ? If the Parties were not relieved, they might be convinced by in quiry that their sufferings had been attended to, and that the evils were irremediable. If the other party were con fident that inquiry would bear their opinions out, they would be ready to grant it; and their resisting all inquiry into the case would admit of but one inference. He did hope and trust that Government would look into the case; and he hoped also that the reciprocity system would not be followed by other treaties, upon the reciprocity principle, until the effect of those already entered into, and which would soon expire, were known. It was very remarkable, with respect to foreign nations, that thos&alone were dis posed to go with us into reciprocity treaties that had all to gain by them, and nothing to lose. Austria opened to us her three solitary ports, whilst Great Britain, in return, opened the numerous sea ports of her kingdom to the sub jects of that power. _ _ . Mr. DUNCOMB was unwilling to let this opportunity pass without expressing hie very sincere and earnest hope that the Right Hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade would forthwith institute a minute investigation into the state of the different interests of the country. The distress was not, as had been represented, merely partial; but it was urgent, real, and almost overwhelming. To his knowledge, several ship building establishments were completely abandoned, and others were about to share the same fate. The petitions which he had the honour to present to the Mouse had come from persons very well ac quainted with the subject iu all its bearings, and they had attributed the distress of the ship building interests to the navigation laws. Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN supported the petition, and expressed his concurrence with what had fallen from the Hon. Member who had presented it. Mr. HUME could not let the subject come to a con clusion without expressing the hope he had entertained that the Right Hon. Gent, opposite (the Master of the Mint and President of the Board of Trade) would have taken some notice of the petition, in order to let the country know if relief could or could not be afforded to this:branch of industry. Those points which the Hon. Member for Hull had stated to the House, he (Mr. Hume) was convinced it was in the power of Ministers to relieve. For instance, it was in the power of Ministers to take off from the shipping interests the heavy and enormous duties on light-houses. By these duties 20,000/. a year were paid into the office of Woods and Forests, not to be used for the public service, but to become the perquisites of a few Lords and favoured individuals.—(Hear, hear.) — Nor did he see why the distressed shipping interests should be taxed to pay anything to such a class of persons. Next, he should say that Government ought to take off several duties npon articles which were especially used by ship builders in their trade.—(Hear, hear.)—What Go vernment ought to do, and could do, was obvious to every body. He could not agree with the Hon. Member for Worcester in attributing any part of the distress felt by any one branch of the shipping interests to the reciprocity system in general, or to any reciprocity treaty in particu lar; for it was his firm opinion that but for the reciprocity system, things would have been very much worse.—(Hear, hear. )_The Hon. Member for Worcester had declared that the shipping interest was in a low state; now he begged to ask him if he could name any one interest in the country that was not in a low state? There was nothing to warrant the Hon. Member in saying that the predictions made respecting the reciprocitysystem, as far as it had been carried, had failed ; and all he had done was to shot , that this particular branch of industry was distressed, and he (Mr. Hume) would add that all other branches were distressed also. If more ships existed in the country than were wanted, they must find employ ment elsewhere, or be reduced in number;; and they would then find a better profit. Let the Government increase the trade of the country by taking off some of the unneces►ary duties and impolitic restrictions, and the shipping interests would no longer have cecasion to come before that House with petition after petition complaining of distress. The tax levied upon merchant ships towards defraying the ex pences of Greenwich Hospital was unjust in principle, and objectionable in its application. It never was in tended to be levied as it is, and it ought long ago to have been removed. Mr. LIERRIES thought that House would have been more surprised if he had entered into a discussion like the present. containing such various topics, and embracing so wide a field, on the presentation of a petition, than it now was on hearing the Hon. Member for Aberdeen taunting him for his silence. Had it not been for the ap peal made to him by the Hon. Member for Montrose, he should not have risen for one moment to address the Hoese on the present occasion. It was to vindicate him self from the possible imputation of any want of disrespect for the Hon. Member for Hull, who had presented this petition, or to the important subject to which that Hon. Member bad called the attention of the House in the course of his speech, but on which he had not founded, or expressed his inteotion to found, any motion, that he now trespassed for a few moments on its consideration. He could not consent to enter, upon the present occasion, into any discussion of that great question which the Hon. Mem ber for Worcester had brought under the notice of the House ; for, if he touched upon that topic, what topic, already introduced into the debate, was there, which he could properly fail to notice ? The first topic on which he would be called to enter would be that of free trade; and he used the word free trade, because it was the deno mination by which a system of commercial policy recently adopted wee generally entitled in that House. The Hon. Member who presented the petition seemed to take the same view of the question of free trade which he himself was disposed to take.---(" Hear," from Mr. Sykes.)—He might, therefore, leave that Hon. Member to give his opi nion before him upon that subject, and to refute the ob servations of the Hon. Member for Worcester. The same answer would apply to all that had been said on the pre sent occasion respecting the bonding system. Plausible as the arguments against it might appear on the first view it became quite preposterous, after considering the subject maturely, to think of getting rid of it altogether. lie had had several interviews on the subject with some of the most leading Members of the interests to which the Honourable Member pro fessed to belong ; and the scheme of getting rid of the bonding system was no sooner mentioned in argument than it was immediately abandoned. The• Hon. Member for-Hull seemed to agree with him also upon this topic— so that there was no occasion for him to pursue it further. Then there was the reciprocity system ! Was the present an occasion on which he ought to address the llouse for the purpose of showing that the consequences attributed to that system had not emanated from it? That system was no system of his. He could not, therefore, be sup posed to have any unfair predilection for it. It had been introduced by others, and though he had fully concurred in the views of those who adopted it, it by no means followed that he was prepared to defend it at all hazards. Still, though he would not enter into the discussions at present, he was prepared at the proper time to show that the Hon. Member was completely mistaken in the view which he had taken respecting it. The very fact that the average amount of British tonnage entered inwards and outwards for the last four years greatly exceeded the aver age amount of British tonnage so entered for the last four years before the alteration of our system, was a proof that the alteration had not been productive of mischief to the sbpiping interest.—(Hear, hear.)—There had been an in crease of 242,852 tons entered inwards in the latter pe riod.—(Hear.)—There had likewise been a proportional increase in the number of ships, of tonnage, and of men cleared outwards within the same time.—(Hear, hear.) — He admitted that in foreign shipping there had been a small increase ; but upon the whole the great increase of employment bad undoubtedly been in favour of British shipping.—(Hear, hear.)—This was a fact which was not known to him alone—it came within the knowledge of every nun who gen himself the trouble of attending to this subject. That there had been an increase of the foreign. shipping engaged in the British trade, was .a point which he - did sot mean to deny; -hut the increas e of the foreign tonnage was to the increase of the British tonnage in the ratio of 5,000 to 200,000.—(Loud cheers.) He mentioned this, not for the idle purpose of gaining a temporary advantage in debate, but for the sake of dis pelling the gross delusions which prevailed in certain quar ters on this topic.—(Hear.) He did not enter at present into the question of the profits or of the distress of those ship-owners, who, being employed, were employed, as they stated, at a loss. He would only say that there was, on the part of Ministers, no want of anxious attention to the condition of the shipping interest. There was, on the contrary, an earnest desire to apply their best abilities to the consideration of any remedy which the members of that interest could point out to the grievances of which they complained. Ministers were, and had been, ready upon all occasions to listen to all their petitions, to weigh therm with care, and to argue them with patience, and they bad never turned a deaf ear to any statement which had come from this important branch of the trade of the country.—(Hear, hear.) He assured the Housa that Mi nisters were inclined to pay attention to those parts of the petition which were of a peculiar kind, .not referring to the foreign policy of the country, but to the burdens more peculiarly affecting the shipping interest; and concluded by promising that they should be made the subject of his immediate consideration.—( Hear.) Mr. EWART referred, in confirmation of the asser tions of the Right Hon. the President of the Board of Trade, to a declaration contained in the report recently made by the Committee on Commerce to the Congress of the United States. That declaration was as follows : " When the present and past condition of our navigation are contrasted,—when we compare the increase of British and American tonnage before and since the war, and show the rapid growth of the commerce of the British North American possessions, we shall learn to comprehend the advantages of a system of free trade,"--(Hear)--" and we shall perhaps feel no small degree of alarm, lest our fatal restrictions should have already driven us too far in the ' rear of all our rivals for national power and naval ascen dancy."—(Hear.)—Attached to that report was a compa rative statement of British and American tonnage actually employed ; and from that statement it appeared that for the last few years the increase had regularly been on the side• of British, and the decrease on the side of American, tonnage.—(Hear.)—The Hon. Member for Worcester had quoted the number of foreign vessels entering inwards as a proof of the mischief arising to the shipping interest from the reciprocity system ; but the evidence which the Hon. Member had brought in support of his position did not ap pear to him to be altogether satisfactory. For his own part he believed that all foreign shipping was in a much worse situation than our own.—(Hear.)—Ths distress of the shipping interest was not the malady of our country, but of the times.—(Hear.)—He believed that the further we advance in experience, the more should we be convinced that the doctrines advanced upon this subject by his Right Hon. Friend, the Member for Liverpool, were doctrines founded on sound policy and the most philosophical prin ciples of political economy. They were the seeds which would hereafter ripen into a plentiful harvest of national wealth ; and to their prosperous results might be applied the beautiful expression of Virgil— . Mox veniunt, seris factura nepotibus umbras." The petition was then brought up. On the question that it be laid upon the table, Mr. ROBINSON said, that he must be permitted to make one or two remarks on the observations which had fallen from the Right Hon. President of the Board of Trade. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said truly that there had been—not that there is—an increase in the amount of British tonnage entered inwards and cleared outwards. The Right Hon. Gentleman had not given the returns up to the latest period. He (Mr. Robinson) had seen the official return for the last year, which had not yet been published, by which it appeared that the, e had been a de crease in the amount of tonnage for the present year. —(Mr. Herries.:--" No, no.")—The Right Hon. Gentle man said, that there had been an increase in the amount of British tonnage employed in trade generally. He would undertake on another opportunity to show, beyond all pos sibility of contradiction, that that increase belonged en tirely to the vessels engaged in our colonial trade, which had nothing to do with any reciprocity system, and to the vessels engaged in the Brazilian and Indian trade. He would undertake to show that there had been, during the year ending December, 1829, a decrease in the registered tonnage of the United Kingdom of no less than 642 vessels. Mr: HERRIES, in reply, stated that he had spoken of the increase in the amount of our tonnage from returns made up to the latest period.—(Haar.)—He had stated that the ansount of British tonnage entering inwards and clearing outwards for the last four years, was superior to the amount for the four years immediately preceding the year in which we made the alterations in our commercial system ; and he now said that the amount of men, ton nage, and ships entering inwards, and clearing outwards, during the last year, was greater than ever it was at any former period. Take the amount, for instance, for the years 1828 and 1329. In 1828, the number of ships en tering inwards was 13,436, their tonnage was 2,094,357, and the number of men employed was 119,141. In 1829, the number of ships entering inwards was 13,659, their tonnage was 2,184,535, and the number of men em ployed was 122,155. Thus the difference in favour of 223, th in tonnage,eyearlB2 9,f 0,7 for ships sentering inwards, was, in ship s , and in men, 3,o44.—(Hear. )... In 1826, the number of ships clearing outwards was 12,248, their tonnage was 2,006,397, and the number of men employed was 119,143. In 1829, the corre sponding numbers were, --ships, 12,636, tonnage, 2,063,179, men, 119,262. Thus the difference in favour of the year 1829, for ships clearing outwards, was, in ships, 388, in tonnage, 56,782, and in men 119.-- (Hear.)—Surely this would satisfy the Hon. Member for Worcester.—(Hear, hear.)—He had also spoken of the comparative average amount of ships, tonnage, and men entering inwards, and clearing outwards, for the four years, 1822, 1823, 1824, and 1825 ; and for the four years, 1826, 1827, 1828, and 1829 ; and if the Hon. Member, would allow him, he would shortly state it to the House. In the first of these two periods there were entering inwards—ships, 11,894 ; tonnage, 1 ,836,223 ; men, 110,734 ; in the latter of them there were —ships, 13,175 ; tonnage, 2,079,105 ; men, 117,775 ; leaving a difference in favour of the last period, of ships, 1,281 ; tonnage, 242,882 ; men, 7,041. In the first of the same two periods there were, of ships clearing outwards, 10,172; tonnage, 1,634,327; men, 101,034; and in the latter, ships, 11,802 ; tonnage, 1,923,671 ; men , 113,999 ; leavieg again a difference in favour of the latter period—of ships, 1,630; tonnage, 389,344; m en , 12,915.—(Hear, hear.)—He would likewise state that the increase of British ships, on the average of the last four years, over foreign ships, engaged in foreign naviga tion, was—in ships entering inwards, 464 ; in tonnage, 5,000 ; and in men, 530 ; and in ships clearing out wards was 820; tonnage, 30,000; and men, 2,400. Mr. ROBINSON again contended, that in the return which he had seen there were 642 vessels of registered tonnage less this year than there were last. Mr: TRANT said a few words which were inaudible in the gallery. The petition was then laid upon the table. On the motion that it be printed, Mr. SYKES returned thanks to his Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose, for having excited the Right Hon. President of the Board of Trade, by his observations, to give some reply to the statements of the petitioners. He thought that this question would have been left in a very unsatisfactory condition indeed, it it had not elicited from his Right Hon. Friend the observations which he had just made.—(Hear.)—His object in giving notice of his in tention to present this petition to-day, was to apprise Ministers of the importance which he attributed to it, and to call upon theta to declare their sentiments upon it. If his Right Hon. Friend had persisted in his original de termination to keep silence, the greatest dismay would have fallen upon the petitioners.—(Hear.)—lt would have pleased him much more if his Right Hon. Friend, instead of dealing in general professions of the attention which he and his colleagues were always ready to pay to the com plaints of the shipowners, had said that he was prepared to bring forward some specific measure for their relief.— (Elear, hear.)--As to free trade, that was a subject on which he had not thought fit to say a single word ; for on this subject of all others he thought that a discussion of its merits ought not to be introduced. Free trade, as he understood the phrase, consisted in the greatest extension of imports and exports into and from every country in the world. To other interests it might be one of the most pestilent heroic.. that ever existed ; he did not, however, think that it was; but to the ship-owners it could not but be favourable, as they were, and must always remain, the carriers of the world. The petition was then ordered to be printed. Mr. SYKES presented a petition from Bridlington, in favour of the extension of the trade to India. Re:erred to the Committee on the East India trade. Mr. N. CALVERT presented a petition from the inha bitants of Hoddesdon, praying for a mitigation of the se verity of the criminal law ; and another from the inhabi tants of Bishop Stortford, relative to the levy of poor-rates. AFeAIRS OF GREECE. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that the House, on its rising, do adjourn till Monday. Lord JOHN RUSSELL—I shall take this opportunity, Sir, to put a tpleation to tire Right Hon. Gentleman op posite respecta; our foreign policy. In the, gracious speech deliver,•; to us from the Throne, we were informed that certain neg; tiations were then pending relative to the independence of Greece, and that when these negotiations were completed, Parliament should be informed, and the papers relative to them should be laid before the House. Since that time a speech of the King of France has ap peared in the public papers, in which his most Christian Majesty informs his two Chambers that those negotiations have been brought to a close, and that a Prince has been chosen to preside over the destinies of Greece. Though his name was not mentioned, it is generally understood that Prince Leopold of Saxe Coburg is the Prince selected. A choice more calculated to secure the happiness of Greece, and its stable connexion 'with the rest of Europe, could not easily be made.—(Hear.)—This annunciation on the part of the King of France makes me anxious to inquire of his Majesty's Ministers whether, now that those negotiations have come to a conclusion, the time has not arrived when they can advise his Majesty to place the papers relating to them before Parliament. As to what these papers may contain, it would be presumptuous in me, who Lave not seen them, to give any opinion. But I cannot help calling the attention of Parliament to this sub ject, which, as well - as the rest of our foreign affairs, appears to me to receive too little of our at tention at the present moment.—(Hear, bear.)--I am fully aware of the importance of many of the domestic questions which press at present upon us, but I recollect that the most important of them all—the pres sure of the debt and the taxation of the country upon its resources and productive industry—is to be attributed to a course of foreign policy which I deem to have been er roneous, but which, whether it was so or not, had at any rate the effect of laying this empire under difficulties from which it will require all its utmost efforts to escape...— (I.lear, hear.) Therefore it is that lam anxious to be en abled to form an opinion on the foreign policy of the country at this juncture ; and the country, by paying attention to these papers, will be enabled to decide whether the Govern ment has, in the negotiations which it has been conducting for the two lastyears on this subject, pursued a courseat once pacific and calculated to maintain the national character. I am the more anxious to obtain the papers connected with these negotiations, owing to a few words which accidentally dropped from a Right Hon. Gentleman on the discussion of the Navy Estimates. It appeared from his expressions, that in July the atmosphere was quite clear, but that in August a sudden change took place in the appearance of the horizon, and we were on the eve of a war. If that war had taken place for the purpose of pr tecting Turkey from the attack of Russia, I feel confident that the flames of that war would have extended to every nation in Europe, and that we should have been well delivered from them at an expense of an addition of 300,000,0001. to our debt. It is on this account that I am so anxious to ascertain the con duct of our Government, and to learn what was the apparent necessity—it would be difficult to find a real necessity._ which brought us so near to the commencement of a war. I am bound in candour to confess that I have a great distrust of the policy of the present Ministers towards foreign States. As to my distrust of their policy towards Portugal, it is founded upon reasons which I have stated to the House, and which I shall be ready to support again whenever the Right Hon. Gentleman on the other side of the House shall bring forward the motion of which he has given no tice respecting their conduct at Terceira. As to the ques tion of their policy with regard to the two recently-con flicting powers of Russia and Turkey, my impression is now certainly unfavourable to them ; but I will not pro nounce an opinion upon it, as the impression under which I now labour may be changed by the production of the pa pers. I say this, because the non-production of them forms one of the most important grounds of icy distrust. As •to their management of our domestic affairs, I feel bound to say that there appears to me to be in it more of economy and less of corruption than I have seen in the management of any Ministry which has governed this country for a length of time. In such a line of conduct as they are pursuing in the internal administration of the country, I am ready to give them all the support in my power. The foreign policy of the Government rests on grounds certainly very different from its domestic policy. With respect to the latter, there appears little ground for opposition; but as regards the foreign policy adopted by Ministers, I cannot view it with the same degree of con fidence. lam fully persuaded that there are many gen tlemen in the House who feel a distrust similar to my own on this subject; and under these circumstances I hope the Right Hon. Secretary will be able to inform us that the papers relative to the negotiations will soon be laid before the House, in order that Parliament may be enabled to form an opinion upon the matter. If, however, the nego tiations have not been concluded, although the King of France states in his speech to the Chambers that they are, and if difficulties and embarrassments still surround the subject, of course the Hight Hon. Gentleman will be un able (consistently with his public duty) to produce the pa pers now required till those difficulties and embarrassments shall have come to an end. But if the matter is set at rest, and the negotiation really concluded, I hope he will see the propriety of producing the papers, and affording the requisite information. Mr: PEEL—I can assure the Noble Lord (and Ide so with the utintst sincerity), that his Majesty's Govern ment feel the greatest anxiety to present to Parliament the papers to which he has referred relative to the late nego ciations on the subject of the future condition of Greece, at as early a period as they can possibly be presented con sistently with the permanent interests of this country, and the welfare of that State which it has been our object to pro mote in the course of these negociations. I have the sa- tisfaction to state, that the several parties to the Treaty of the 6th of July, 1827, have come to a resolution with re spect to the future government of Greece, and its projected relations with other Powers, which has met with the un animous approbation of all the parties to the Treaty, and that the most perfect and entire accord exists between them as to the selection of the Prince to whom it is pro posed to confide the future sovereignty of Greece; on these main points relative to the future government of Greece, its condition, which the Allied Powers wish to be perfectly independent, and tile selection of the Prince to whom the sovereignty of the country is to be committed, —with respect to all these matters, I am happy to he able to say, that the three parties to the Treaty of the 6th of July have acted with entire concert, and the most cordial co-operation. This concert and harmony existed from the beginning, and remains uninterrupted up to the pre sent moment : it is entire and complete. The negotia tion may be considered as concluded,—as far as the mate rial points are concerned it is ; but. there are some points of a subordinate nature in relation to which negociations are still pending ; and, such being the case, while negoci ations at all connected with the subject ire in progress, the Noble Lord will doubtless concur with me in thinking that it would not be consistent with the usual practice in such cases, and might not be for the public interest, that the papers should he produced. However, I may here observe, that at no very remote period I hope and expect I shall receive his Majesty's commands to produce the papers, and lay tha information required on the table of the House. I ran assure the Noble Lord, that at the very earliest period which can be selected for the pur pose, consistently with the termination of the negoeia tioas, with the welfare of Greece, and with the interests of this country, shall the Noble Lord and the House be furnished with the information, so as to afford them an opportunity of forming a proper judgment on the subject. The Noble Lord has stated that he approves of the do mestic policy of the Government, but views with distrust and suspicion the course adopted by Ministers with regard to our relations with foreign powers. I must be allowed to say, that I cannot help hoping that the distrust and sus picion of the Noble Lord merely arises from this circum stance,—namely, that with regard to the foreign policy of the country there does not exist that opportunity of asking and affording the same direct and immediate explanations as with regard to measures of domestic policy. With re gard to measures of domestic policy our course is clear and unembarrassed, and there exist nightly !opportunities of offering explanations on the subject of particular measures ; a nd, no doubt, it is on the ground of these explanations that the Noble Lord and others give us their confidence, Nor do I trust if there are any points of foreign policy, with respect to which it is not in our power to offer im mediate explanations '(and it will be admitted that this must frequently be the case),—l do trust that the House will suspend its judgment, and not come to a hasty con elusion upon these matters, or go the length of withdraw ing its confidence front Government till the opportunity shall have occurred of offering those full explanations which we are anxiously waiting to give. When we are placed in a situation to give those explanations, I entertain a confident opinion that the judgment of the House will be in favour of the foreign as well as of the domestic poicy adopted by Ministers, and that it will then be seen, that throughout the whole. of very difficult and complicated transactions with various powers, we have attained our e nds not by any sacrifice of the permanent:interests of this country, or, What must always be equally dear to us, of our high character and honour as a nation. Lord JOHN RUSSELL-1 wish to ask the Right lion. Gent. wh et h er the points still undetermined and to be raised are between the Allies and Greece, or between them and the Ottoman Porte ? Mr. PEEL-....The pending negociations involve certain points as between the Prince to whom the sovereignty 01 Greece has been offered and the Allies. The-negociations between this country and the two other Powers parties to the treaty of the 6th of July have been concluded ; but as I have already stated, there are negociations pending be. tween the Prince referred to and the three Powers. After the intervention of some extraneous matter, which will he found reported btlow, Mr. PEEL again rose and said—l wish to notice one part of the Noble Lord's observations, which is rather im portant, and to which my attention has been just directed. The Noble Lord said, that from something which had passed in the House, on the subject of the naval estimates, on a former occasion, he was led to infer that we had been on the verge of a war in the course of the last autumn. I don't know what it was that induced the Noble Lord to draw that inference, and certainly I am not at all disposed to acquiesce in the correctness of the inference, whatever may have given rise to it. lam not aware that we were on the verge of a war in August last, still less on the verge of a war for th 6 purpose of protecting Turkey against Russia, as the Noble Lord appears to imagine. Lord J. RUSSELL—The ground of my inference was this—the Right Hon. Secretary to the Admiralty was understood to have stated in the course of a discussion which took place on the Navy Estimates relative to the state of the naval hospital at Malta, the establishment of which was augmented between the months of July and August, that it was considered necessary to send out orders to that effect, as there was an apprehension that the fleet in the Mediterranean would be fitted out. It was in re ference to this that I said I supposed this country had been on the verge of a war in August. The statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman was not contradicted, and as it agreed with other rumours which I heard to the effect that Russia bad been informed by us last summer, that if she persisted in the blockade of the Dardanelles, war would be declared against her by this country, the natural infer ence was, that we had been on the verge of a war last autumn. It may be that these rumours are perfectly un founded. Such, however, does not yet very clearly ap appear to be the fact ; but when the papers which I am desirous of having, come before the House, the necessary information with respect to those transactions will be ob tained, and we shall see how the matter stands. Sir G. COCKBURN— The Noble Lord appears to have misapprehended what fell from my Right Han. Friend the Secretary to the Admiralty, and he has cer tainly mis-stated the Right Hon. Gentleman's observa tion. My Right Hon. Friend said it was necessary to prepare for the contingency of events, there being a larger force in the Mediterranean in August than in July. Of course an increased naval force required an augmentation to the hospital establishment, but nothing was said by the Right Hon. Secretary which could afford room for an in ference that the country had been " on the verge of war." Mr. HUME—The statement was, that this was a case of emergency which warranted the Admiralty i❑ ventur ing to increase the expence of the particular item in ques tion even without the sanction of the House. I can as- sure centlemen opposite, that among persons sitting on this side of the House the impression created, not only by what tell from the Secretary of the Admiralty, but by the observations of another Right Hon. Gentleman, now in his place, was that such a danger as that described did exist last August. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I stated that applications were made to increase the establishment of the Naval Hospital at Malta beyond its amount, when there were only 6,000 men in the Mediterranean, because circumstances had induced Government to raise that force to 8,000 men ; and such being the case, they necessarily required a more extensive establishment, and an augmen tation was made to the Naval Hospital. Sir J. WROTTESLEY—I entirely acquit the Right Hon. Gentleman of having given any ground for supposing that a war was impending inAugust ; b u t f rom w h at fell from the Secretary to the Admiralty, I must say that the strong impression upon my mind at the time was, not only that it was likely that the hospital would be called into action to a greater extent than usual by reason of the aug mentation of force in the Mediterranean, but that it had been necessary to provide for the contingency of having a certain number of wounded men to take care of; and it struck me at the time as being rather extraordinary that a communication so important as I considered that to be, should have come from a gentleman not in the Cabinet. Lord HOWICK—The exact words made use of on such an occasion are important; and I believe I can state them pretty accurately. The Right Hon. Secretary said, that in the month of July the Lords of the Admiralty thought no increase in the hospital at Malta would be necessary ; but that in August, there being a prospect of the fleet being called into immediate action, it was requisite to augment the hospital. Sir G. COCKBURN—It was stated that in July there was no intention of augmenting the establishment ; but that in August an increase having taken place in the Me diterranean fleet instead of a decrease, it was necessary to augment the hospital. Nine sail of the line were upon the station ; it was impossible to tell what might be the result, but he did not say there bud been a probability of war. The conversation dropped here, and the motion for the adjournment of the House at its rising till Monday was agreed to. SUPPLY.—REPORT.—CIVIL CONTINGENCIES. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER having moved the order of the day for receiving the report of the Committee of supply_ Cllr. P. THOMSON said, it had been his intention to take an early opportunity of calling the attention of the House to the important subject of the collection of the revenue. His own wish was, that a Committee should be appointed to inquire into the extraordinary amount of charge of collection. However, he understood that Go vernment intended to make an inquiry into the subject themselves. If this were confirmed by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, he should feel disposed to wait till the result of that inquiry was known. He now asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if steps were to be takes by Ministers for the formation of a commission to investigate the matter, and if such were the .case, whether we might expect any report or information on the subject before the close of toe session. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER flattered himself that he could give a satisfactory answer to the Hon. Member's question. On the night of the budget he had intimated that it was the intention of Government to have two commissions—one to inquire into our colonial expenditure, the other to investigate the collection of the revenue. The Commissioners would shortly commence their labours, and he had no doubt, that before the period mentioned by the Hon. Member they would have advanced so far as to be enabled to lay some information on the sub ject before the House. - Mr. W. SMITH called the attention of the Secretary for the Colonies to the propriety of procuring certain re turns connected (we believe) with the number of death■ in the colonies. Sir G. MURRAY observed, that in his opinion the re turns would be productive of no public advantage. How ever, the Hon. Member for Aberdeen had a motion rela tive to Sierra Leone standing for a future day, and the Hon. Member for Norwich might take that opportunity of mentioning the subject again. Mr. Alderman NV AITHMAN rose to present a petition from certain ship-owners, but was interrupted by the laughter of several Hon. Gentlemen, and the SPEAXER having informed him that there was another question be fore the House, the Hon. Alderman sat down. The report was brought up by Sir A. GRANT. The resolution granting the sum of 100,000/. to his Majesty towards defraying the civil contigencies for the year 1830 having been read, A conversation took place between the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER and Mr. HUME as to the course to be pursued with respect to the Estimates, which was not very distinctly heard in the gallery ; but the result ap peared to be, that a vote on account was to be taken on the civil contingencies to-night, that the Ordnance esti mates were then to be proceeded with and got through be- . fore Easter, and that the remaining estimates (miscella neous, Irish, contingencies, &c.) should stand over till after the recess. The resolul ion was agreed to. COMMITTEE OF.SUPPLY.—ORDNANCE ESTI- MATES. The Order of the Day for the House resolving itself into a Committee of. Supply war, read. Some observations were made by Mr. BERNAL upo❑ the inconvenience of bring forward public business before Members had presented petitions, which they came down day after day for the purpose of laying before the House, but without success. The SPEAKER having left the Chair, Mr. PERCEVAL moved that a sum not exceeding 5,9373/. be granted to his Majesty to defray the salaries of Iyo Clerksohvicain4d Officers in th e O r d nance E s t a blishments at Mr. HUME expressed his regret that Ministers per sisted in keeping up an establi4iment so disproportionate to the wants of the country as that of the ordnance, and complained of the plan of keeping IT two civil establish- ments connected with that branch of service, one of them at Pall-mall and the other at the Tower. He should he aarefd(ins‘%i':iktl:awe saving very little expense, — lad; 1;;;;;;hat possible inconvenience could occur from r g emoving the clerks from the Tower to Pall-mall ? It could t any i ; t e r o o t7r b s l e e , g would be made. Besides, it was important that all the Members of any department should he together, since it materially tended , b , e l l;)::e b x , v t i , t , h k o i no to facilitate the transaction of businese f On this ground, he did think, even leaving the important question of eco rnloemrkys o u u n t d o e f r s t i g h e h t s , a t m l a e t r i o t n w t as p H r e o p c :l. o l t d o I , l 4.s air en no t b e e a s eu cause fferent what ever for laying out 60,000/. or 70,000/. per annum on a department which in 1797 only required 18,000/. or 19,0001. Neither could he conceive why the Govern ment should manifest so much reluctance to accede to the recommendation of the Committee, which had inquired into all the facts. Mr. PERCEVAL said, the Hun. Member for Aberdeen had undoubtedly gone into a variety of details, and had made a very rambling statement, hut still there was no thing in his speech which warranted a condemnation of the present system. He had compared the seen now re quired to defray the expense of the Ordnance Department with the sum voted in 1797 ; but surely he ought to be aware, from his knowledge of those estimates, that the service of the present day was greatly increased, winos compared with the servieeof 1796-7. That was a ground, therefore, on which censure could not, with justice, be founded. The duty at the present time was increased,., it was trebled ; and he would ask, could those who were at the head of the department prevent it from being so increased? His Right Hon. Frieed, who had been, ex amined before the Finance Committee, clearly proved, by his evidence, how great the additional duty hail been ; and lie had distinctly shown that much improvement had been made in the public service generally, in consequence of va rious duties which had been handed over to the Ordnance Department. He would maintain, that there was, in reality, a very considerable saving on the sum voted for the minor services which had been so much com plained of. The Hon. Gentleman had compared the ser vices and expence of the Ordnance with thew of the Navy ; but the comparison was net, for many reasons, a fair one ; and it should set be forgotton that a good deal of the naval service was thrown on the hands of the Ordnance. The Hon. Gentleman had alluded to the duties of the chief clerk in the office of the Surveyor-General. That individual had been is the service for 50 years; his exertions had been most meritorious; his salary was not more than commensurate with kis labours; and, on his re tirement, his allowance would be reduced to 900/. With respect to the propriety of removing front the Tower to Pall-mall, he had theu a paper before him which contained the result of inquiries made upon that point, and the con viction of the individuals examined was, that no saving would accrue from adopting such a measure. Without a large building the business could not be transacted. If the Hon. Member would allow them to build to the right and left of the Ordnance-office in Pall-mall, they could then snake a proper place for transacting the business in ; bat if that were dona, he feared that the Hon. Member would not be very ready to pronounce an eulogium on them. It was proved before the Finance Committee that the expellee of the buildings at present was about 1,6001. a-year ; but if the suggestion of the Hon. Gentleman were attended to, it would, he believed, he necessary to increase the expence. Mr. P. THOMSON complained of the number of clerks employed in the Surveyor-General's department, at salaries varying from 400/. to 6601. per annum. He could not conceive how 47 clerks could be wanted in that situation. Mr. LENNARD said, that the whole question was of expence, and lie wished to know whether, with a due regard to economy, the whole business could not be con veniently performed with a reduced number of clerks, at reduced salaries ? Mr. W. L. MABERLY was of opinion, that it was in every respect improper, that two establishinews, which should be under . one roof, were thus divided, the one transacting business at Pall-mall, the other at the Tower. He looked upon the question as one of principle, which re spected the mode of conducting public business, rather than of economy, though that was also a matter of great importance. The reason why opposition was eiven to the so-often-called-for alteration was, that if it were carried into effect, a number of individuals would lose their official residences, both at the Tower and in Pal-mall. Sir H. FANE accounted for the employment of f,rty , seven clerks in the Surveyor-General's DepArtrn,nt, by adverting to the great variety of business which had been transferred to that department. Leaking to the vatious duties which were to be performed, forty-seven clerks were not too much ; and be could assure the House that all of them were occupied. With respect to the Chief Clerk in his (Sir H. Fane's) office, his salary was not too great. There was not a more meritorious officer in the service. He had been fifty years in the present situation, and his labours had been extremely beneficial to the public. Mr. HUME said, he knew many gallant general officers who did not receive one-third of what the individual al luded to was paid annually. It therefore appeared to him that the merits of this gentleman were either very much overrated, or the services of those gallant officers were greatly underrated. He wished to know how many clerks there were in Pall-mall, and how loony in the Tower ? Sir H. FANE said there were no clerks at Pall-mall, the clerks were all at the Tower. He believed that the office at the Tower suited the purpose admirably, and the office at Pall-mall. was, on the contrary, unit for the transaction of extensive business. There was only ono officer (the Secretary to the Board) who resided there. Mr. HUM E—Then I would say, as there is no accom modation at Pall-mall, let any person who is connected with the Ordnance Department, and who resides in Pen man, go to the Tower.—(A laugh.) Mr. PERCEVAL stated, that if the clerks were re moved from the Tower to Pall-mall, the charge for com pensation, &c. would create a much greater expence than was incurred by the present system. Colonel SIBTHORPE said it was Lis intention, itot having understood that the votes on the salaries of several clerks had been passed, to have divided the House on al most every one of them. He thought, in the present state of things, and looking to the great and growing dis tress of the times, that these clerks wore too well paid. when their remuneration was compared with that of the really hard-working classes of society. Therefore it was his wish to divide the House on these votes. There was no less than 44,138/. voted to clerks, certainly not to men the whole of whom did actual duty. Here was one clerk with 1,100/. a-year, another with 1,000/. a-year, whose duties were performed by deputy clerks. They drove about in their carriages, and indulged in every species of luxury, while the people were in a state of most deplorable distress. Here was 1,1001. a-year voted to one clerk— one would suppose a private clerk, for he was never heard of at all—and he bad also pei haps half-pay. When he contrasted his situation with that of an unfortunate wretch who was sent out to Sierra Leone on 901. a-year, he could not avoid reprobating so unjust and unfair a system. Sir H. HARDINGE contended that Mr. Angel, who filled the situation of chief clerk in the Surveyor-General's Office, did not receive one-tenth part of the money which he had saves! to the public. He had, it was true, 1,1001. a-year, but he had served the public for more than 50 years. &Colonel SIBTHORPE—I do not question the abilities of those clerks, but I say that the rate of salaries, looking to the existing state of the country, and considering the remuneration which other classes receive, is too much. And if my own brother were includes( amongst those clerks, still I would make the same observation. Colonel TRENCH said, he could bear testimony to the merits of those individuals. There never was a more admirable or efficient body of officers. Colonel TRENCH spoke in support of the vote. Mr. LENNARD wished to see the higher officers re duced, rather than the inferior clerks. He was sorry that the suggestions of the Finance Committee, respecting the department at Pall-mall, were not adopted. Mr. MABERLY reiterated his opinion as to the pro priety of removing the establishment. Sir GEORGE CLERK said, that if they were now considering a plan for the accommodation of the depart ment, there cou4 not be two ()pinions as to the advantage of uniting them; but as there were two places, the.ques tiou was, whether an expense of 20,0001. or 30,0001. should be incurred; in pulling down and building again, to obtain a saying of perhaps 4001. or 500/. a-year in a junior clerk or two. Mr. HUME asked for some explanation as to the su of 14,000/ for the ordnance department of Dublin. Colonel PEEL complained of the inconsistency of those who opposed this vote. He had been rrepared to heat a ettse of great hardship made out. Some conversation then took place, respecting the salaries of Sallie of the officers, between Mr. P. 'Tuom- SON, Mr. PZACEVAL, and Sir. H. HARDINGI. Mr. HUME repeated his question respecting the enor mous establishment 01'14,000/. at Dublin. Mr PERCEVAL said that the establishment had very ex t i‘ e i n r s . i u d duties, s 0 , h a i n e d e t a e a t r o g e t h c e o 1 1 : e t respond. enti:n en o e f e an inspector of gunpowder. He resided a t F avers h am, t h e Board in Pall-mall, and th e esta bli s h ment at toe Tower. As there was no gunpowder making, what was meant by a super intendent of gunpowder ? Mr. PERCEVAL said, that it had been determined to do away with that office, and it would not be long before it was abolished. The resolution was then agreed to. On the next vote of 87,4641. for the salaries of the seve ral civil establishment. of the Office of Ordnance at home and abroad, a convereation took place between Mr. HOME, Sir J. WAOTTESLXY, awl Mr. MAIMALY, v the vee part,