The Sun. — London, England, 1854-02-28 00:00:00

'ac men, and again to re juin them to state what the pre- Oise size of the scale should he, whether 20, 24, or 26 I inches. Upon Vote he had already mentioned that there was a sum of 133,00)/, for machinery, anti that he should return to the subject, as it was possible that, with regard to some portion of the vote, there might be some difference of opinion. In the first instance, he asked the house to consider the two items he proposed to take for the improvement of the machinery of the Royal carriage department and of the Royal laboratory at Woolwich, amounting together to 138,0001. Those gentlemen who had looked into the estimates of this year would be aware of the enormous sums paid in wages in these establish ments, amounting, he thought, to somewhere about 75,0001. Ho ;was sorry to say that the Royal laboratory was at present considered in the light of a manufactory in an extremely primitive state. (Hear.) The rooms in it were so small that it was impossible to have any effec tive superintendence over the workmen in order to see that they attended to and conducted their work pro perly. It was of the utmost importance that in any man - afactory the order of manufacture should be consecu tive, that when a part of anything was manufactured, it should not be requisite to have it moved first in one direc tion, and then in another. At present that simple rule was not attended to, and on account of the insufficient arrange ments there were considerable difficulties, particularly at the present moment, in making this department keep pace with the demands of the service. He would ask the house to consider what the necessary effect of this was. He had already stated that on account of the present position of are department he referred to, it was difficult for it to keep up with the present requirements. The consequence was that the ordnance department was required to keep large stores in hand in a time of peace, in order that, not having the means of producing largely at any given period, it should be able to supply the wants of the service at a time when any great call might be made upon it. It was thus necessary to keep large stores in hand, and th e resu lt frequently was that a great number of the articles kept in store became obsolete, and, in addition, carriages became rotten and many things utterly useless. All these took up room, though, for the reasons he had described, without costing an enormous sum tnthe country. Many of these carriages could not possibly be - good for anything except firewood ; consequently, in an age of invention like this, when different discoveries so soon became absolete, it was necessa ry in any establishment for warlike stores to arrange it in such a manner that at any given time the stores could be rapidly reduced. At the present moment these two de. partments—the Royal Carriage Department, which pro &mad all the gun carriages, and the Royal Laboratory. which produced all our projectiles of war—expended in wages at least 75,000/. ; at least, that was the sum put down in this estimate, though he should deceive the house if he were not to tell them that he pro bably might have to call on for a further vote. The new machinery would cost from 85,0001. to 90,0001. which at 3 per cent. represented 3,0001. and he was in • formed b 7 the persons most competent to judge—by offices of the highest experience and ability—that this expendi ture would reduce the amount spent in wages at least one half, if not more • so that a saving of 37,5001. annually would be ef f ected' by the expenditure of a sum the interest of which amounted to about 3,0001. In the Royal Car riage Department, which, owing to the efforts of Colonel Coote, whose loss they had this year to deplore, was in a More advanced state than the Royal Laboratory, there had been effected in this manner a saving of labour, as calcu lated on a comparison of the years 1844 and 1854, to the extent of at least one-sixth, only 895 men being now needed where formerly 1,094 men must have been employed. It was clear, therefore, that the course which they proposed to adopt would be a great saving in the annual expendi ture of the Ordnance, and it would prevent the necessity of keeping so large a stock on hand, and in every way con for the greatest benefits on the contrary. The next sum was probably one on which there would be more conten tion—it was the sum of 100,0001. for the erection of a gun factory. He begged the hiuse to understand that it was not proposed to multiply Government factories—in fact, two Government factories were to be discontinued. At present Government had an establishment at Birmingham, which this year cost 5,0941. and one at Enfield, which cost 7,3831. It was proposed to get rid of these two fac torien—each of them, from their position, could probably be disposed of very profitably—and in their place to erect a grin factory somewhere.du the, neighbourhood of Wool wialh. The Board of Ordnance had but one thing to con sider, and that was to get the best arm at the cheapest rate. (Hear, hear.) That, of course, was the only conside rittion which could weigh with them, but at the same time le should be very sorry that it should be supposed that he was at all indifferent to the position of the gunmakers who 'seemed to consider themselves aggrieved by what was about to be done. The question had been forced on the considera- , tiosa of the board at the time of the first introduction of the Minie rifle into our service. When the board was called on to produceMinierifles sufficientforthe whole army, they would have been neglecting their duty if they had not taken in consideration the system which had prevailed up to that time, whether it had worked well, and whether, on the whole, it was calculated efficiently to supply the wants of the service. Two gentlemen of great experience and ability proceeded to Birmingham and other places where guns were manufactured. They reported the gun trade to be— " Altogether in a very lamentable state, and far behind any other trade to which it can be compare. With the exception of the barrel of the musket, they found the greater portion produced by hand-labour alone. At the bayonet works which they visited hardly any machinery worthy of the name is employed, and, consequently, the expense of a bayonet is considerably more than double what it may be expected to be made by machinery." For the last 10 years the Board of Ordnance had been en gaged in a struggle with the gunmakers. He would not deny that there might be faults on both sides, but he be lieved he could show positively that on the side of the gun makers there were very considerable faults. The system pursued by the Board of Ordnance was fully considered by a committee of that house which sat in the year 1849, from whose report the following was an extract : " Your committee made some' inquiries into the mode of contracting for muskets, with a view of ascertaining whether any reduction could be made in their cost without endanger ing thJ efficiency of the weapon supplied. Upon this point conflicting opinions will be found in the evidence. The weight of the musket is in great measure regulated by the length and calibre of the barrel. These points have been de cided by the highest military authority, and this decision your committee suppose was made on sufficient reasons. Ob jections which have been urea} agZust the present rigid sys. tem of inspection do not appear to rest on any valid grounds. Jt is the duty of the Board of Ordnance to take every security that the muskets supplied shall conform to the pattern ap proved, and your committee have not heard that any favouritism has been imputed to the viewers or other officers employed in this service." In the year 1851 tenders were called for for what was than called the Minie musket, and on the 26th of June, 1852, the following petition was received froze the military gun lock makers:— " Consequences to be deplored have resulted from this state of things, for the men have frotn time to time embrszed re munerative employment, as, for instance, great numbers are employed upon revolving pistols; awl at this present juncture we could not rely upon more'than 20, or at most 30 efficient workmen to exetmte your order; and we are sorry to say that the difficulties that surround us absolutely deter us from un dertaking to supply a specifisd quantity, and it would be im possible to supply the quantity required." The difficulties with regard to the production of this mus ket were so great that it was nearly two years after the or der was given that the whole of it was supplied. During the last year there had been an order given for 2,000 car bines for the artillery, and, though the first steps were taken as far back as the beginning of March, the whole of that order had not been received at this moment. At the beginning of last year 20,000 new Minie rifles were ordered; tenders were called in—not called fromLondonor Birming ham or any one particular place—but from all England, Scotland, or Ireland ; those received being unsatisfactory, were declined, and new tenders advertised for in the pa pers. This failed to excite any more competition, and Sir T. Hastings, the Controller of the Stores, a gentleman of the highest intelligence and experience, and one who was considered by all the gunmakers as one of the moat just and fair officers, went down to Birmingham, an d, h av i ng succeeded in makingl better terms, ordered 20,000 muskets there. This was on the 26th Oct. 1853, and since then they had received from the gunmakers numbers of letters alleging various reasons for the non-completion of this or der. With some it was a general strike of the workmen— others had been unable to get rod makers, others had made miscalculations of other descriptions, but with almost all, for one reason or other, there was a total im possibility of doing the work. There was one part of the present system- which the board had to con sider; and they had also to consider the price for which the musket could be made. The task they had before them was to provide a new musket for the whole of the army— including artillery, marines, and coastguard, the price of which at present would be something under 31. a-piece. They were strongly warned by many of the ablest officers in the army that it was not safe for the country to rely upon the existing system, and they turned their attention in the first place to the system which prevailed in the United States. There they found that the Government had in its hands three gun factories capable of turning out 500 rifle muskets a-day at 375. a-piece. They found also an ample amount of muskets in store, and the latest im provements of Machinery, by means of which the different parts of the musket were made with such accuracy that the parts of one musket fitted into the parts of any other in discriminately. He had been told that bags of the differ ent materials of which muskets were composed were mit to Mexico, and that, being opened on their arrival there, the parts were taken out promiscuously and fitted into each other with as much nicety as if each had been made speci ally for the other. That he believed was what could not be said of two of Purday's rifle muskets out of the same ease. But there was also another consideration. In 1841 the percussion arm was introduced into our service, and, 1 . 1 . P. the old flint m us k e t s b e i ng thus rendered useless—for the attempt to alter the m was never successful—the ex tue,,, of course , was enormous. But did they think that now Pre- a bout to introduce would retain for many years the eminence which visable it now enjoyed ? And was it not ad on that account to tiovise some means which would render in it te le o f muskets eeessary to retain suc h an i nor di nate number being put to a store, and avoid the risk of the coun t ry when the pere s u imilar expense as that which was incurred When the bulte musket came i n t o use ? (Hear.) Ordnance, and Lard w ellington was Mister-General of the they decided that the llArdinge Clerk of the Ordnance, store should b e 45 7, Tit rer of mu s k e t s t o b e kept in 00. was oat, without going to that enor mous number, it clear that with the pre sent amount of produjnteat our disposal, 3 )), ODJ w a s a sufficient store to keen up, putting the requirement of the coloni es on oue e however, of producing 500 tuasketsuttBt:hidy,e* With a power, we should mani festly be in a better position Nvithuvr xuskets in store than we had been before with theoiding the risk of great los4 in future, besides saving ntuabam capital repre sented by the difnrenco in thi twi this factory, upon the moat iniuute cdcolatft')in°s‘''w"hticohf coa l b e m a de, was 150,0001. It should be , bobusteril)ra onets ed th a t the factory would produce , not only z aus k ots also. He had said that ho would ask the commityte consider the financial effects of the measure he Pr eto For the line th er e would be required 110,0 )0 mij e f ) m o se u u s kets; for the ar tillery, 10,000 ; for the marine s , 15 ,000 and for the militia, 50,000; the number for s t ore bein g 300,000, or, altogether, 485,000, exclusive of the colonies and the East India Company. 485,000 muskets, at 31, each, would cost 1,455,0001.; but the highest authorities believed that the musket might be produced for 1/. 103. Ile had stated that the price for which the musket was produced in the United States was 37:>. each; but, consi dering the improvements which it was believed by those best competent to form an opinion on the subject—by those Who were engaged in designs for the factory—could be made on th e American mac hinery, he was prepared to ex- Prase the belief that the musket could be produced at the Proposed factory for 30s. (Hear.) Taking this estimate, the saving that would be effected upon theprevious estimate thhe ad dd _stated, of 31. ea c h, wou ld b e 727,5001. B u t f ur th er, e 5t0......L71ti0.ned that by means of th e proposed system re, in tune of Mee, mid be diminished by 200,000 , the differ •nc re , ulting from which would represent a capi tal of Coo,ooo/. in favour of the public, the interest upon which would bo a considerable and permanent saving. All this advantage would be realised by the outlay of 150,000/.; from which, moreover, was to be deducted whatever the present establishments at Birmingham and Enfield might produce when sold. (Hear.) All these Minie rides must have new bayonets; 485,000 bayonets at 7s. 6d., the ordi nary price, would cost 181 ,8754; but it was calculated that at the factory they could be produced for ls. 6d. each, which would amount to only 36,3751., or a difference in fa vour of the public, by means of the factory, of not less than 145,5001. (Hear, hear.) When, upon the authority of Mr. Anderton, the same gentleman who had effected such enor mous savings in the royal carriage department, he could show -the committee that, by the expenditure of the pro posed 150,0001., such a large amount of arms could be pro duced at such a vast reduction of cost, he felt that Lord Raglan was, indeed, perfectly right in considering the mat ter now before the committee as one of the very highest importance to the public service, as pre-eminently condu cive to-'the permanent safety and well-being of the coun try. Under these circumstances, he hoped the committee would pass this vote unanimously. (Hear.) He had stated that he did not conceive the proposed arrangement would do the injury to the gun trade of this country which that trade anticipated. Let it be borne in mind that our gun trade was at present in a very low condition, whereas that of the Unit e d St a t es was i n a very a d vance d state. In the report which was presented to the house the other day, with regard to the machinery department of the United States Great Exhibition, it was stated that the gun trade of America was in a very high condition, and there seemed every redson to fear that, unless our gun trade became im mensely_improved, the whole trade would be transferred to the United States. Under such circumstances, to have a really good machinery, for the construetion of guns in troduced to the observation of the gunmakers of England, whether by Government or by individuals, could not be other than a public benefit. (Hear.) How stood the gun trade of England now? In 1851 we exported 247,226 mus kets ' • in 1853 the number had fallen to 238,767. But now, turn to pistols. In 1851. we • exported 5,333 .pistols ' • in 1853 we exported 22,235 pistols, or more than treble the number we exported in 1851. (Hear.) How had this happened ? Why, because Colonel Colt had introduced among us this very system of machinery, by means of which, producing pistols of admirable quality at a cheap rate, we had been enabled to effect so largely increased a demand for our pistols—surely a benefit to the gun trade of the country, which, with regard to muskets, hail under gone deterioration. It was his opinion, that by the intro duction, in like manner, of improvements in the construc tion of muskets, the Government would be benefiting our gun trade far more than the stoppage of the intermittent Government contracts would injure it; for those improvements would continue, and enlarge for the trade the whole market of Europe. (Hear, hear.) He trusted that he had now satisfied the committee, and that he should satisfy the deputation who had waited on him from the gunmakers, that the proposal he had made as to a Government factory would largely benefit the public, without vcrificing the permanent interests of the small number of persons whom the deputation represented. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman then moved that 19,266 men be voted for the Ordnance department for the service of the year. Mr. MUNTZ said that the hon. gentleman had said a good deal that was perfectly correct, but he had also omitted to mention much that would have been equally correct. The great cause of all the complaints on the part of the Ordnance as against the Birmingham manufacturers had been the Minie rifle, which, as being a weapon that the manufacturers had only just become acquainted with, the Ordnance officers themselves knowing very little more about it than the manufacturers, necessarily occasioned delays and difficulties in the commencement of its manu facture. (Hear.) The hon. gentleman talked of making for 30s. a gun that cost in the ordinary way 31., but there still remained the question as to the quality of the article. As to the competency of the Birmingham factories to pro duce as many guns as were wanted, let the manufacturers have• consecutive orders, and they would execute them to the largest required amount. (Hear, hear.) Another great cause of delay was the inconvenience with which the manufacturers had to contend from the way in which the tenders were given out, a number of thetn_beir4 issued at the same time to different manufacturers, and no new ones sent out until all the former ones had been completed, so that often many of the manufacturers who had disposed of their part of the tender were at a stand-still for work. (Hear, hear.) His firm opinion was that there was no difficulty whatever to procure any amount of arms that were required, and that without going to America, or any other country for them than our own. (Hear, hear.) He suggested that the vote relative to this matter should be suspended for two months, with which time he would undertake to give ample proof to the house that our manufacturers were fully able to produce any amount of arms that might be considered requisite within the required time • and, if he could not within such ti me produce such proof, he would offer no further opposition to the suggestion of Government. He thought it would be the greatest folly to rush into erecting a mill in the way recommended, and he felt convinced that, even if such a mill were allowed to be made, no arms would be got oat of it for at least two years ; and, in his opinion, nothi ng at all would be gain e d by it, except an additional and a useless expense. (Cheers.) The CHAIRMAN reminded the hon. member for Bir mingham that the question now before the house was, not as to the expediency of establishing a mill, but the esti mates as to the number of men. (Hear, hear.) Colonel DUNNE could bear testimony to the efficiency of the artillery troops, which he considered to be equal to any artillery in Europe. He thought the improvements contemplated with reference to the practice -at WoAwich most advantageous, as the present grounds were certainly not sufficient for field guns, for which, if a proper range could be obtained it would be of the greatest service to the corps. He considered that the question as to the manufacture of small arms was one of the highest importance, and one which ought not to be lightly or hastily disposed of. He should like also to see the improvements suggested carried out in the laboratory, inasmuch as he believed them to be necessary ; and nothing would please him more than to see the present estimates framed upon a basis at once efficient and perfect, and such as was not only desirable but necessary in a time of emergency like the present. Mr. WILLIAMS could not help noticing the very large increase iu the number of men in the Ordnance corps and departments, which in the years immediately preceding 1845 amounted only to about 7,000 or 8,000 in 1845, to 9,000 ; but in the present year, according to the proposed estimates, to 19,000. (Hear, hear.) He thought the charge of 8,5001. for the servants of the officers in the En gineers a very large sum, and also the amount of 120,0001. for additional aid and allowance one that was out of all pro portion. Ho should be very glad to see the improve ments which had been spoken of carried out ; but at the same time it was necessary that the house should use the greatest care in voting these estimates. The vote was then agreedt p. The next vote was, that a sum of 902,8171. be granted for the pay, allowance, and contingency of 19,266 officers and men composing the Ordnance military corps. Mr. DRUMMOND said, as the subject of great coats had been mentioned, and as everybody followed French fashions now-a-days, he bogged to point out —while ex pressing his satisfaction at the more comfortable clothing which they were going to give the troops —a very com mendable custom that prevailed in the French army. In every sentry-box in France there was a large cloak, in ad dition to the great coat of the soldier, and the use of this cloak was considered by the medical men of France to be of great advantage to the men. (Hear.) This was a mat ter well worth consideration. He must •say .that he cor dially concurred in the proposal that the system of clothing by the colonels should be altogether abolished, (Hear.) The vote was then agreed to. On 557,1761. being proposed for commissariat or bar racks supply, Colonel GILPIN called attention to the miserable ac commodation given in barracks to married soldiers The wives of soldiers were not permitted to live in the barracks unless they had certificates of respectability, and when re• spectable women were thus introduced, it was exceedingly wrong to give them the sort of accommodation they now had in the midst of 20 or 30, or, as he had seen the other day, 60 men. He hoped the attention of the hon. member for Limerick would be turned to the case of these unfortu nate women, and that some better arrangement would be adopted. (Hear.) Sir W. CLAY likewise referred to the disgraceful accom modation given to married women in barracks, and pointed out the want of proper ventilation, which might for a very small sum be rectified in any barrack in the kingdom, also the want of adequate library accommodation, the soldiers from want of reading-rooms being compelled to read in the dining-hall, or their bedrooms, or else take refuge in the can teen. He likewise pointed out the necessity that existed for providing washing-rooms and decent utensils to wash in for the soldiers. All these were of importance to the health and comfort of the soldier, and, though apparently trifling, were well worthy the attention of the Govern ment. (Hear, hear.) Mr. MONSELL sympathised with the kind wishes which had been expressed for the comfort of the soldiers, but he was sure hon. gentlemen must see how difficult it was to carry out the views which had been put forth. In all the new barracks the accommodation for married women had been much improved, as, indeed, were the comforts of the soldier generally; but, in the case of the old barracks, great difficulty was experienced in making the required alterations. Colonel GILPIN suglested that, as in the case of the colour-s"rgeants, partitions might be put up for the benefit of married sniffle's. Lord SE - I'Mal said, it would appear that the house had either been niggardly in supplying the wants of the soldier, or that the money which it voted had been very ill-spent. It was shown before the Committee on the Ord nance Estimates that great improvements had of late years taken place in the accommodations of the soldier. It was there stated that the accommodation had increased to that extent that the cost of supplying it for the soldiers in bar racks amounted to 1001. a man. Now, if that was so, the soldier should certainly be very well supplied and well lodged. (Hear, hear.) They hid been told that the sol ,. Biers had no means of washing themselves in barracks, but he remembered that a large sum was voted for this very purpose when the subject of lavatories wits brought for ward by Lord Panmure, and there was a sum taken every year for washing in the new barracks, so that, so far from grud;ing good accommodation to the soldiers, the had been most liberal on their behalf. (Hear.) No blame, there fore, attached to that house, though he was unable to say how the accommod a ti on h a d been carried out by the proper officers. (Hear.) After a few words from Mr. S. KNOX, The vote was agreed to, as were the followiatg :- 73,7191. salaries and contingencies of the Ordinance-office, 281,645/., salaries and contingencies of establishments in the United Kingdom and the colonies. 162,3311., wagas o: artiicars, lab mrers, and others, at the several establishments in the United Kingdom and colonies. On the vote of 639,5521. for Ordnance stores for land and sea service. r. MUN ri suggested the postponement of this vote. MONSELL said, that a postponement was impos- 3Tr. NEWDEGATE wished, in reference to that porti on of this vote which was for machinery and buildings for the manufacture of small arms, to call the attention of the. house to a document which was signed by several of the most respectable firms in Birmingham. Those who had signed this document on behalf of the gun trade undertook, if the Board of Ordnance would enter into a contract, to supply 150,000 rifle muskets within eighteen months, in addition to the orders already in course of execution.. Now if the Government proclaimed to the gun trade that they wore to be cast aside, then it could not be expected that they would make the exertions which the had dome on former occasions. It might be said that this document was tee wells o far as it went, but that there was no gurtran.- , thits promises could be carried out. Now, from a paper which had been published, it appeared that :from the year 1845 to 1849 the annual number of muskets turned out was 274,000. The consequence (of the present system was this—that foreign soldiers, who were armed from Birmingham, were better supplied than thofiet in our own army. Much of the present feeling against Binning ham gunmakers had arisen from the conduct of the Messrs. Lovell. - Mr. Lovell, who presided at the establishment at Enfield, had a son who was appointed inspector at Dir. minpam, and this son, naturally perhaps desiring to raise the importance of the place over which his father presi ded, had found fault with the anus furnished by Bir mingham houses where no blame justly attached. Mus kets hail bean returned as faulty which, upon being a second time sent in, had been passed as correct. In another instance 23,00 J Minie rifles, which were furnished by Birmingham, were crooked-sighted through the im proper conduct of the inspector. The real truth of the matter was, that the Ordnance Board for many years was asleep, while the French Government were taking every means, aided by scientific men, to improve their arms. A t length the board awoke, ordered a large quantity of Minie rifles, but was so imperfectly, or rather improperly se conded by its own officer that these rifles had actually to be returned, and almost re-manufactured, before they were fit for use. Now, however, that a more proper in spector was appointed, the Government ought to pause and consider before going to the expense of a large establish ment, whether the existing manufacturers could not as well or better supply their wants. If the hon. member (Mr. Muntz) divided, he (Mr. Newdegate) should give him his support. Lord JOCELYN thought that the matter really before the house was whether the present establishment could or could not be consolidated and improved. That there was room for improvement was manifest from the fact that, after an improved rifle had been ordered, it was nearly three years before the corps for which it had been ordered were supplied with it. It appeared to him that the argu ment that had been used proved the advantage of having but one estoblishment for the use of arms. And he believ ed that would enable them to get rid of the establishment. (Laughter.) He thought so because it would be such a stimulus to private enterprise that great improvements would be effected. He should support the Government in this vote. Mr. MUNTZ observed that the Government had no ma nufactory now, all they...lead was a,proof-house and a view house. Therefore, the effect would be just this : that de vernment would take upon themselves the manufacture of arms instead of their being manufactured at Birmingham. The hon. gentleman said, American guns could be manu factured for 38s. ; but he could inform the hon. gentleman that the same guns could be manufacturec in this country for 20s. to 30s. ; but after all they were not Minie rifles. Mr. GEACH said this was not entirely a question for Birmingham, but whether the Government was to turn manufacturer and put itself in competition with private enterprise in a country where private enterprise had done more than in any other country in the world. The honourable gentleman, the Clerk of the Ordnance, said it was necessary that Government should take upon themselves to supply the arms, that they should not depend on other parties to supply them, and he also said it would be a pattern to the trade. Now, there was no other Government that hada manufacture to give them a pattern, and he believed that if manufacturers depended on Government patterns they would not sit long in that house, for a bankrupt was not entitled to sit in the house. Nothing was more amusing to a manufacturer than to walk through a Government establishment and to compare it with his own, and at the same time to listen to the lau dations on the machinery, and to persons pointing out what the manufacturers should do in order to be perfect. The hon. gentleman had referred to a gentleman of scien tific acquirements who was to guide them. Why he (Mr. Geach) was at a meeting of civil engineers months ago, when this same gentleman - (cries of Name "—Mr. An derton, was speaking of the size of ships, and he advised them not to have very large ships, saying they would go slower, and only serve to stow away more fuel. Well, within two months there was landed the Himalaya, and the Government were now glad enough to avail them selves of the Himalaya to carry troops She was the largest ship that was ever built, tho most effective, and the most economical. The hon. gentleman had had but little expe rience in the department in whith he was placed, but he was made to feel all the inconveniences of the want of supply. Everything was ruorted to him to show the de ficiency, but there might be explanations which, if they were reported to him at the same time, would put a dif ferent complexion on the matter. If they once got one of these Government establishments, they would never hear of any difficulty ; the officers and men would believe it was all perfection. If Government had exhausted all the means for procuring a supply from private manufacturers there might be some excuse for asking for a sum to esta blish a Government manufactory to compete with a large trade ; but they had not exhausted all those means. He believed that if a merchant were to have on order for 10,000 stand of arms he would get them, where Government by their system, had not been able to do so, Mr. MONSELL thought the hon. gentleman who had just sat down had misrepresented in several particulars the proposal that he made to the house. For instance, he had spoken of Mr. Anderton a gentleman with whom they had nothing to do. Then gentleman of whom he (Mr. Monsell) spoke was Mr. Anderson. (A laugh.) Then the hon. gentleman said if Government had this establishment they would let the thing go on, and would declare it the most admirable thing in the world. The hon. gentleman might not have been in the house when he had the honour of bringing forward a proposition to improve the laboratory and carriage department at Woolwich. That showed that the laudations of which the hon. gentleman spoke were not all shared in by the Government. Upon the question of the cheapest manner of doing the Government work no hon. gentleman had addressed one word. The hon. mem ber for Birmingham asked him if the musket manufactured in America was an Indian rifle. He did not know, but it was a celebrated rifle for the execution that it did. But he altogether mistook him, for he (Mr. Monsell) rested his case on the American rifle' costing the American Govern ment only 375., and he stated that - the calculation was that our Government manufactory would • manufacture it for 305., and that it would be as good or a better arm than that which they now paid more than 3/. for. If that were 1 the case, the hon. gentleman surely did not mean to main tain that there were public grounds for resisting the propo sition that be had submitted to the house. If au extraor dinary demand bad been made to them for arms, and if there was a necessity for providing for that demand with the least possible delay, and they could show to the house that they could save some 700,0001. or 800,000/. of the public money, he thought the louse would have had good reason to find fault with-them if they had not made the proposition, and he thought the house would be to blame if they did not adopt the proposition. With regard to Mr. Lovell, he was informed that the statement now made by the hon. member (Mr. Nrewdegate) was made to Lord Hardinge, when he was Master-General of the Ordnance. That statement was considered by Lord Hardinge, and he di.l not arrive at the decision that the hon. gentleman did. By the proposed system they would get rid of the system which the hon. gentleman complained of. The advantages of the proposed system might be seen in a striking manner by those who would take the trouble of referring to the opinion of Mr. Whyford, in which he showed that the stock was made and the whole musket got up in 25 minutes and a half. It was not merely a ques tion of getting the best arm in the shortest time, but it was a question involving most material financial considerations. By the course they suggested they would save a large sum of money, and certainly the arm that would be produced would be as perfect, if not better, than that produced at Birmingham, and there would be the advantage that all the different parts could be put in bags, and then taken out and put together as exact as the machinery. Lord SEYMOUR considered the question one of consi derable importance, and he was sorry it had been some what prejudiced by being brought forward as a local ques tion connected with Birmingham. The question of govern. ment manufactories had come under the consideration of committees of that house. It was brought under the consideration of the committee on naval estimates, and also the committee on the ordnance estimates ; and he be lieved he stated no more than was the opinion of several members of the present Cabinet, when he said their general opinion was that Government manufactories were not ad visable. It might be well, it was admitted, for Govern ment to have some small manufactories as a check on the private producers, but no more than that. The general system was to be by contract. As to the cheapness of Go vernment manufacture, was there any man in the house who believed it? (Hear.) Would any member of the Cabinet get up and say he believed in the cheapness of Go vernment manufactories ? The only excuse for a Govern ment manufactory was, that they might get a good article; they might be certain of the article, and, therefore, they paid a great deal mo re tolset it. Now, they were told by the Clerk to the Ordnance that they were to establish a large manufactory for the supply of muskets for the army. It was always the interest of Government to produce largely, and therefore it was the interest of Government in this case to produce a large quantity in a short time. An establishment was therefore to be created capable of mak ing 300,000 muskets in a year. (An Hon. Member, 150,000) Then, what was to become of the workmen when theyhad produced this quantity ? They would have to keep up a great establishment without any work. Why, they all knew that if machinery was not kept going it was a great loss. Therefore, the next reason would be, " now we have got the machinery, let us create a store. We used to have a store at the Tower, which was burned ; let us have another." If it was for the present war the muskets were required, he wanted to know when this establishment would be at work ? Would the Clerk of Ordnance get up and say he would undertake to produce 50,000 muskets within two years ? If not, were they now looking forward to and providing for some future war ? He told them that improvements were now going on so rapidly that in four or five years this musket would become obsolete. Then in 4 or 5 years their establishment would become obsolete. He would, therefore, recommend the Government to post pone the proposal for a time ; and if the men refused to work, or if there was anything unfair, he was sure the house would give them the means of establishing a manu factory Colonel BOLDERO recommended the Government to pursue a similar course to that which had been pursued with regard to the manufacture of gunpowder ; in which case the ordnance department had manufactured from 10,000 to 12,101 barrels of gunpowder, and employed four firms to manufacture from 2,000 to 3,000 barrels each. This would afford the greatest facility for increas ing the supply without incurring unnecessary expense. (Cries of " Divide.") The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, not withstanding the natural impatience of the committee at that late hour (5 minutes past 12), he trusted the house would allow him to say a few words. (Hear, hear.) Al though this was a vote on the ordnance estimates, and one, therefore, for which his hon. friend (Mr. Monsell) was re sponsible, yet as the person immediately charged with the care of the finances of the country, he should have been deeply culpable had he allowed it to be proposed without being entirely satisfied as to its propriety. The motives which had induced the Government to adopt the proposal were, in the first place, the extreme dearness of the arm which was at present furnished to the forces ; in the second place, the slowness with which that arm was prepared ; and in the third place, the extreme uncertainty of its manufacture. With respect to dearness, the pre sent cost of the rifle musket in this country was 3/., whereas the cost of the rifle musket in America was 1/. 17s. An hon. gentleman had cried down the quality of the American arms ; but he did not think lie would be supported in that opinion. The lesson which they had received from Col. Colt. a private American, coming over to England to show Englishmen how to work in metals, was most important. The remark of the noble lord behind him (Lord Seymour), that the government o,ight not to be manufacturers, was received with loud cl;:era. (Cheers.) He concurred in that as a general prin ciple 1 but there were certain cases in which nobodydoubted that t."ey ought to be manufacturers. Nobody doubted, f or exa ,uple, that they ought to continue the manufacture of guupo by which he believed it had been shown on good authority that they had saved the country half a million. There were certain specialities in certain cases, and the question whether the government should - manu• facture or not in a particular case, was not to be settled by general dicta on the subject, but by the consideration of itose specialities. He had stated that the cost of a musket at: , present was 31. The responsible department assured him th at it could be manufactured for 30s. Economy, however, wa a not the only question in the case. There was the qutlption of rapidity and what 540 the Ordnance on that ri 4 6 .It - _tiirii•r,f Fr tt §,i AT 7,:rVft . .141: - VoLfEllt 17*. point ? "The board ordered tenders to be issued fer 2,000 carbines on an improved pattern on the 11th March last. Icot one of those carbines ban yet been received into store." Again, they wen discussing one of the finest instruments that tould be made—an instrument requiring the most ixdnute precision ; and they had been told that night by the - hon. member for Warwickshire, that it vas impossible to attain this by anything but machinery, as the inspector of small arms in Warwickshire had blundered in his in spection. The question was, then, whether they should continue to have guns intended for her Majesty's forces made by theinferior and obsolete processes of hand labour, or whether they should have applied to the manufacture the economy and precision of machinery ? The question was one between hand labour and machinery ? It was ad mitted by the hon. member for Warwickshire that machi nery was employed in America for the manufacture of arms which in this country were made by hand labour. Mr. NIIWDEGATE explained that what he had said, was that no machinery could be superior to the best hand labour. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he con tended that the muskets ought to be made by machinery. Experience ought not to be overlooked in this matter. In former wars this country had been obliged to go to Liege and other places for a supply of arms. (Hear, hear.) As regarded the question of expense, he really could not have believed without investigation that in a matter so compa ratively trivial as the providing of small arms for her Ma jesty's forces it was possible to effect a saving of 800,0001. or 900,000/. ; but that •was the case as it stood on the esti- mated difference between what they were now paying and what they would have to pay under the new system. The noble lord (Seymour) said they were going to make a pro vision for future wars. He was sorry to say that they were making provision for a war which was now gathering around them. (Hear.) The noble lord had asked most properly when the factories would be in operation. They would be in operation within 12 months, and the Govern ment hoped in the course of the next year to obtain from it a full supply of arms.---41e meet say that, if censure were due to the Goy4pment or to the ordnance depart ment, it was not for likving.gonde the proposition now, but for not having made it at an earlier period. They had been told that they would draw together a great number of manufacturers and have sudden and uncertain demands, and they were asked what they would do with these manu facturers when the sudden and uncertain demands .eased. Now, he invited the attention of the house to this point, for it was the kernel of-the whole case. The hon. member for Warwickshire said that, in order to enable private trade to discharge contracts, it was necessary that the con tracts should be continuous. He begged the committee to remember these words. Now be wanted to know how they could secure a continuity of supply on a demand for arms ? He wanted to know whose ditty it was to maintain eco nomy in the public expenditure? He wanted to know who could undertake to keep that outlay down in a time of war, when arms were largely required, much less in a time of peace ? Certainly the House of Commons could have no difficulty in answering the third of these questions. Well, then, to secure economy in the supply of arms, whether in a time of peace or in a time of war, you must have the power of sudden expansion and rapidity of manufacture, the two great objects which were involved in the proposition before the committee. Government then wanted the power of sudden expansion, and the power of producing with all possible certainty a large amount of arms within a certain space of time, which could not be done by pottering—(a laugh)—with private traders employing only hand labour. That past experience proved, for whereas they had ordered 2,000 carbines as far back as the 11th of last March, not one of those carbines had been delivered in'store up to this very moment. But what will' the case with regard to ma chinery ? Why it was the continuous supply that was required ; but, Oh,"' said the opponents of this plan, " if you employ machinery, you will not only require to keep it constantly in operation, but you will have to keep a large staff of labourers." Now the latter part of this ob jection applied certainly to the present system of private trading, because there a large amount of skilled labour had constantly to be kept on hand; but in the case of ma chinery it was entirely different. For there, instead of requiring 90 per cent. of skilled labour, all that would be necessary would be 10,porbent. tr skilled labour and 90 per cent. of unskilled 'labour ; and, while a small staff only of skilled labourers woultlthave to be kept in constant employment, the Government in a time of pressure would equally have at its command all the unskilled labourers of the community. Now that was the precise state of the case ; there was no desire to oppose the private trader, but there was a desire to promote economy, and to secure an efficient supply of arms—two objects which the Govern ment were convinced this plan would accomplish, or they never would have invited the House of Commons to under take such an enterprise as that which was now proposed. It would effect a large saving of public money, at the same time place the country, not in a tolerable, but the best possible position with regard to the supply of arms, and he hoped therefore the House of Commons would no t refuse to back the Government in the performance of their duty to the public. On the contrary, he trusted they would not hesitate to give a decided' vote in favour of the establish ment of a system, by which the country would obtain a superior supply of arms at a much lower price and with far greater certainty and more rapidity of delivery than they could possibly hope to attain under the existing statse of things. Government, however, did not wish the hou e to pronounce any decision upon the point until it had been put in possession of the means of acquiring inf6rmation upon it, and there would be no indisposition on their part to refer the whole question to the consideration of a select committee. For that purpose, therefore, the Government would have no objection to postpone the vote for a month upon the understanding that when the committee was ap pointed it should sit from day to day until its investigation was concluded, and in the meanwhile the Government would upon their own responsibility undertake all the pre liminary proceedings necessary for the formation of such an establishment as this vote contemplated. Mr. MUNTZ said the right hon. gentleman had certainly made a most ingenious speech. but he had failed to alter or grapple with the facts of the case. It seemed to him that the right hon. gentleman knew nothing at all about the subject. Hon. gentlemen opposite might cry " oh, oh," but did they know anything about it ? H e b e li eve d they did not. The right hon. gentleman had told them that it was a question between machinery and labour; but it was no such thing, and he would prove it. Did hon. gentlemen know anything about a towlinK piece—had they ever used one—had they ever shot with one ? Well, then, a fowling piece was the result of the combined labour of man and machinery, and what the Government proposed to do by this plan was to obtain a similar species of arms by the aid of machinery alone. But they could not do it. Al though, according to the right hon. gentleman's statement, making a gun was like spinning cotton, you had only to put the metal in at one end of the machinery, and the gun came out of the other. But what did the right hon. gentle man know about such matters as gun making? Why no thing but what he obtained from -his authority, the hon. clerk of the ordnances who he really believed did not know a gun from a pistol. (Roars of laughter.) It was said these arms could be manufactured for 30s. each ; but the house might rely upon it that the 30s. would become 505., as sure as the 100,00/. for the establishment of the manu factory would ultimately magnify itself into 500,0004. (Hear.) He was therefore sorry that the right hon. gen tleman objected to his moderate proposal to delay the vote, but he trusted the committee would support I him in tho amendment he had ventured to propose. (Hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not object to postpone the vote for a month, and having made that announcement, the right hon. gentleman went on to read a passage from a report of the board of ordnance, by which it appeared that during the late war this country purchased no less than 293,000 stand of arms from foreign manufacturers. (Hear,) Mr. A. PELLATT addressed thecommittee amidst much uproar and impatience. He observed that a great deal had been said by the trade of Birmingham, and he wished to say a few words with regard to that of London. There had been made in London during the last ten years, no less than 514,376 small arms, which gave an average of some thing like 58,137 per annum, (Hear.) There were 1,900 workmen, and 18 houses, already engaged in the manufac ture of small arms in London ; ;ad he understood that 8 or 10 of these houses had offered their services to the go vernment, but they had been rejected. (Hear.) _ _ Mr. SPOONER strongly recommended his hon. friends to accept the proposal of the .Chancellor of the Exchequer. Now the manufactories had a right to expect that more time would have been'atorded them for inquiry ; but per haps a month would be sufficient to establish on which side the justice of the case rested. (Hear.) After a few words from Mr. MUNTZ, Lord J. RUSSELL said it was not meant to bind down the committee to sit every day ; but it was desirable that they should sit de die in client, in order that due deligence might be used. The vote was then withdrawn. 59,5221. for ordnance storm . . . Mr. W. WILLIAMS moved that the chairman should report progress ; but after a remonstrance from Lord J. Ru SSELL, the vote was agreed to, and the house then re sumed. Lord J. RUSSELL gave notice to move this day, that the house should meet at two o'clock on Wednesday, and then go on with the committee of supply. CHURCH BUILDING ACTS AMENDMENT BILL. This bill was read a second tint's: - -- VALUATION (IRELAND) ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This bill was read a Second time. The house adjourned at ten minutes to one o'clock. CHURCH-RATE CONTEST.—On Thursday last a vestry was held in the parish church of Milton next Gravesend, Kent, to make a rate. The parish churchwarden, after stating the cost incurred in the repairs of the church in the past year, and other legal expenses to be provided for by a rate, moved that a church-rate of 3d. in the pound be made to defray these expenses. This motion gave rise to a stormy discussion. Some of the ratepayers (dissenters and churchmen) suggested a voluntary con tribution to defray the charge, amounting to 1201., for which a rate was demanded. This proposition was re pudiated by the churchwardens, and a division upon the mot:on took place, at the end of which the church wardens demanded a poll, which terminated on Satur day in favour of the opponents of the rate by a majority of 90, the numbers being, for the rate, 150 ; against it, 240. _ _ [ADVERTISEMENT.] —Fifty thousand Cures have been effected by Du Barry's delicious Revalenta Arabica Food, without medicine, inconvenience, or expense (as it sa.ves fifty times its cost in other remedies).- " Twenty-five-years nervousness, constipation, indigestion, and debility., from which I had suffered great misery, and which no medi cine could remove or relieve, have been effectually cured by Du Barry's Food in a very short time. 11 7 . R. Reeves, Pool Anthony, Tiverton." "Eight ye:ars' dys pepsia, nervousness, debility, with cramp F„ spa►ems, and nausea, for which my servant had consisted the advice of many, have been effectually remove .1 by Du Barry's delicious food in a very short time. I shall be happy to answer any inquiries. Rev. Jolin W. Flavel, Rid lington Rectory, Norfolk." "Tb .ree years' excessive nervousness, with pains in my rig ;ck and left arm, and general debility, which rendered • my life very miserable, has been radically removed by Du Barry's excellent food. Alexs. Stuart, Archdeacr )n of Ross, Skibbereen." —" Fifty years' indescribable agony from dyspepsia, nervousness, asthma, cough, constipation, flatulency, spasms, sickness at the stow ►ech, and vomitings, has been removed by Du Barry's e: xellent food. Maria Jolly, Wortham Ling, near Diss, , Torfolk." Copies of testi monials of 50,000 cures (incb ading those of Lord Stuart de Decies, Major-General Thomas King, Drs. Ure, .Skozland, and Harvey (grr‘ti& ). In canisters, with full instructions, 11b., 2s. ; 21b., 4s. 6d. ; 51b., 11s. ; 121 b., 225. ; super-refined, sib., 225. ; 101 b., 335. The 101 b. and 121 b. carriage free.. Barry Du Barry and Co., 77, Regent-street, Loneion :also, Fortnum, Mason, and Co., purveyors to her Majcist3 , , Piccadilly. , Z . ' 4ta -rim•W ' - 4- ' 4 " Verb / 41 '--- i , A llttio r t 44, ~,,,. .40,, . SUN OFFICE, Sevcr, o'clock. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS—(THIS EVENING.) The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack at five o'clock. The Duke of ARGYLL presented petitions from Scotland against tho support of Popery, also in favour of a national system of education in that country. Earl GREY presented a petitioti from the Newcastle Chamber o (Commerce, !praying for the formation of a harbour of refuge on the coast of Northumberland. The Earl of EGLINTON presented a petition from a place in Scotland in favour of the maintenance of the parochial education in that country. THE MILITIA FOR IRELAND. The Earl of WICKLOW inquired whether it was the intention of the Government to propose during the pre sent session any measure for embodying the Irish mi litia ; and if so, whether they proposed to form it under the old system established during the war, or under that adopted during the peace ? The Earl of ABERDEEN said a bill would be intro duced this session in the other house by which power would be taken to modify the existing law respecting the militia in England. By that law power was given to extend the 80,000 men which had been raised to 120,000. It was now proposed to vary that and apply the act to Ireland. The Gosernnwit intended to embody in Ire land a militia of 30,0010 Rim aid in Scotland a militia of 10,000 men. .It was„bowr„Ter e .not proposed to embody the Irish militia this year. LEASING POWERS (IRELAND) BILL. The Earl of DONOUGHMORE moved the slcond reading of this bill, He stated that this, and the Landlord and Tenant (Ireland) Bill, the second rend ing of which he would also move, were the same, with some minor exceptions, as those introduced into this house last session. The noble earl entered into an ex planation of the main provisions of the bill, which he observed had been carefully framed, so as to obviate any interference with the rights of property. [Lan SITTING.] HOUSE OF COMMONS.-(THIS EVENING.) The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock. SECOND READINGS. The following private bills, were read a second time and ordered to be committed :—Chapel-en-le-Frith Roads ; London and North Western Railway (Haydon Square, &c.) ; Great Southern and Western Railway ; Shrewsbury and Chester Railway (Sale or Lease) ; Thirsk and Yarm Road, Mr. E. BALL presented a petition from Cambridge praying the house to a adopt a system of decimal coinage. Mr. BOUVERIE presented', etition with the same prayer from the borough and wn council of Car marthen. Mr. 0. STANLEY presented a petition from 300 electors of Carmarthen, praying for reform in the elec tive system. VENTILATION OF THE HOUSE. On the motion that the house at its rising should ad journ till two o'clock to-morrow, Mr. SPOONER called the attention of the house to the abominable , staiwp--of ventilation of the house. (Hear, hear.) He spoke feelingly, for the air that was " pumped " into the house.and.for which they had3paid some 200,0001. was so filled with dust that it brought on an attack upon him from which he was now suffering. If the matter were not attended to he certainly would move for a committee to in,quire into the matter. 'le could find them places in the house freezing in one est. ner and scorching in another. (Hear, hear.) Mr. W. PATTEN also bore testimony to the bad state of the ventilation. Mr. HUME said if Mr. S. Gurney had an oppor tunity of carrying out his views as to the ventilation of the house, he would for a very small expense put house in a good condition as regarded ventilation. Pro bably public money never was - so squandered as had been the case in this matter, and he hoped it would be taken up by the proper authorities. (Hear, huar.l Mr. MUNTZ said this was another instance of the evil effects of the Government undertaking the duties of a factory. (Laughter.) Mr. BOUVERIE said a good deal of the difference of opinion that existed on this subject was owing to the different conditions in which hon. members came into the house. Some hon. members came in after having a good dinner and a fair share of wine, and they com plained that the house was intolerably hot, while those who had been in the house for some hours were chilled. He himself had sat as many hours last session in this house as any hon: member, not even excepting the Speaker, and if the ventilation had been so very bad as was said, he would have suffered more from it than he certainly had suffered. (Hear, hear.) PRIVATEERING. Mr. M. GIBSON gave notice that on this day week he should move that an address to the Crown be pre sented praying her Majesty not to grant letters of marque to any vessel. VINE DISEASE. Mr. SPOONER askejl. if the ~Government had re ceived any report relative to the rumoured failure of the vine crop in various wine' growing countries. Mr. CARDWELL said the Government received such reports, and had no objection to produce them. Mr. SPOONER then moved that the reports re ferred to be laid upon the table. Agreed to. . - • RUSSIA AND THE INDIAN PRINCES. Mr. LIDDELL asked if an alliance, defensive and offensive, had been concluded between the Czar of Russia and the Kkans of Bokhara and Khiva, and the King of Cabool. Sir C. WOOD replied that he believed there was no truth whatever in this report. UNSTAMPED PUBLICATIONS. Mr. LUCAS wished to ask the Chancellor of the Ex chequer whether it is the intention to acquiesce in the verdict given in the Court of Exchequer in Dublin in the oase of Mr. 6haw's Penny Commercial Journal. In this case the jury found a verdict for the defendant If the Government did not acquiesce in the verdict, was it the intention of the Government to enforce their no tion of the law with reference to The Builder and The Athenceum. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the Government did not intend to acquiese in the verdict, but it would he premature t 3 vbnswer the other question. ACCIDENTS IN MINES. Mr. CALEY enquired if the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department had received any in formation of the recent coal mine accident in Wigan. Mr. FITZROY said hie attention had been drawn to this lamentable occurrence, and a Government officer had been sent down to attend the inquest. LAW OF J3RIBEItY. Sir F. KELLY wished to ask the noble lord the member for the city of London when he intended to proceed with his bill for tote consolidation of the law of bribery. Lord J. RUSSELL., would answer the question to. morrow. • • CONVENTIJAL ESTABLISHMENTS. Mr. T. CHAMBERS then rose to move for a select committee to inquire into the number and rate of in crease of conventual and monastic institutions in the United Kingdom, and the relation in which they staid to existing law ; and to consider-whether any, and, if any, what further legislation is required on the subject. He brought this subject forward in a civil, social, and po litical sense, and not as a religious question. He should endeavour to avoid exciting any religious animosity by confining his arguments to facts which he had obtained from the Roman Catholic registry. According to that authority there were 75 convents its England, and 128 in Ireland, making in all 20 3 convents, The same authority told him that in 1848 there were only 53 of these institutions in Great Britain and Ireland, thus showing the enormous increase of 400 per cent. within ten years, and proving the absolute ne cessity for an immediate inquiry into their cha racter. (Hear.) In January, 1853, there were in existence no less than 72 monasterieet in Ireland, while in 1843 there were not more than 60 ; in other words, there had been an increase upon the ten years of 20 per cent. in monasteries. Now that saws a ♦ery grave fact, and one which ought to be inquired into and investigated by a country professing the Protestant faith without offending the followers of the Roman Catholic Church. It was a mistake to suppose that the Roman Catholic laity were opposed to such an inquiry, although some of them might be, and he hoped there would be no objec tion to his motion on that ground. Many of these in stitutions: were opposed to the spirit of the English law as established by acts of Parliament, they had been esta blished, indeed, in open violation of the existing statute law, and on that account he contended there ought to be some inquiry into their numbers or character. Monas tic establishments were decidedly at variance with the law, while as for convents they stood in the highly inconvenient and inexpedient situation of having no re lations whatever to the law. They were neither ignored nor recognised by the law, and as such a state of things could not be permitted any longer to continue he thought that was an additional reason why the enquiry he asked for should be had. (Hear.) But, besides their numbers, there was much danger in • the manner in which these convents were conducted ; for many of the inmates were confined in them in opposition to the wish of their parents or their own will. (Hear.) He could say nothing about the doctrines t.ught in these conventual estab lishments, though they were certainly none of the soundest but he thought, upon political grounds alone, the house was bound to institute the in quiry to ascertain the treatment the inmates were subject to which history proved was both coercive and severe. Convents were places of restraint or infliction, where the most excruciating torments were practised upon the nuns and novices, and it was an abuse of social and political right to allow them to remain longer in this country without investigation. [LEFT SPEAKING.] THE LONDON GAZETTE. (THIS EVENING.) ST. JAMES'S—'--PALACE, FEB. 24. Tho Queen has been pleased to p.ppoinkSommander Robert Tench Bedford, R.N. ' to be one of th e G en tl emen Ushers Quarterly Waiters in Ordinary to her Majesty, in the room of Sir John Strachan, Bart., deceased. WHITEHALL, Feb. 25. The Queen has been pleased to appoint General the Right Hon. Viscount Harding', G.(' .B, LieuteGentrog fair- ~11P. EY I t 4, , the Right Hon. Lora Raglan, at B. ;_the Right Hon. Earl they ; Lient -General the ,Fight Hon. Earl Cath cart, K..C.8. • the Right Rola. Lord Pantnure, ; Lieut.-General the Light Ron. lora z.,atoll, G C.B. ; the Right Hon. Sidney Herbert ; the atitirt Eon. Sir John Somerset Pakington, Bart. ; the Right Hon. Ed ward Ellice ; Colonel George Buller, C.B. ; and Colonel William Thomas Knollys, to be her Majesty's Commis sioners for inquirin g into the several modes o f p romo ti on and retirement in her Majesty's Military Forces. CROWN-OFFICE, FEB. 25. lIENIBER RETURNED TO SERVE IN THE PRESENT PARMA. MENT. County of Cardigan.—The Right Hon. Earnest Augustus Earl Lisburne, of Croswood Park, in the county . of Car digan, in the room of William Edward Powell, Esq., who has accepted the office of Steward of her Majesty's Manor of No rthstead. BOARD OF TRADE, WHITEHALL,Fza. 27. The Right Honourable the Lords of the Committee of Privy Council for Trade and Plantations have received, through the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, a copy of a despatch from her Majesty's Consul• General at Ha vana, reporting that on the Ist of April next the port of Mariel will be closed to foreign commerce. BOARD OF TRADE, WHITEHALL, FEB 27 The Right Honourable the Lords of the 'Committee of Privy Council for Trade and Plantations have received, through the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, a copy of a despatch from her Majesty's Consul at Marseilles, re porting that the quarantine imposed at Naples, on vessels arriving from French ports, has been removed. WAR-OFFICE, FEB. 28. Brevet.—The undermentioned officers to be Brigadier- Generals while employed upon the staff of the Forces about proceeding upon a particular service • viz. :—Colonel William Cator, Royal Artillery; Colonel William Burton Tylden, Royal Engineers. The above Commissions to bear date Feb. 21. ADMIRALTY, FEB. 24. Corps 9f Royal Marines.—Capt. James Buchanan to be Lieut.-Colonel;eVeltettry Iltbrge Mitford to be Lieut.- Colonel, vice Dawes, to - retired full-pay ; First Lieutenant Ebenezer Tristram Thomas Jones to be Captain, vice Bu chanan, promoted ; First Lieut. Joseph Henry Joliffe to be Captain, vice Mitford, promoted; First Lieutenant and Adjutant John Wm. Alex. Kennedy to be Captain; First Lieut. R. Boyle to be Capt.; First Lieut. S. R. Little to be Captain; First Lieut. and Quartermaster J. Elliot to be Captain, First Lieutenant Charles M'Arthur to be Cap tain, First Lieutenant Hamond Weston Gwyn to be Cap tain, First Lieutenant and Adjutant Charles Loudon Bar nard to be Captain, First Lieutenant Henry George John stone Davies to be Captain, First Lieutenant and Adjutant Rodney Vansittart Allen to be Captain, First Lieutenant Nevinson Willoughby De Courcy to be Captain. COMMISSIONS SIGNED BY LORD LIEUTENANTS, sth Regiment of West York Militia—Colonel George Lister Lister Kaye, late of the 10th Hussars, to be Lieu tenant-Colonel Commandant, Feb. 21. 3d Regiment of West York Militia:—Lieutenant Robert Dudley Baxter to be Captain, vice Thelluson, resigned ; Ensign Theophilus Smith to be Lieutenant, vice Baxter promoted ; Ensign Frederick Durham to be Lieutenant, vice Floldforth resigned, Feb. 21. Oxfordshire Regiment of Militia—Richard James Han sard, Gent., to be the Assistant Surgeon of the Regiment, vice John James Ireland, promoted, Feb. 22. Royal Glamorgan Light Infantry Militia.—Wallop Bra bazon, Esq., to be First Lieutenant, Feb. 21. North Durham Regiment of Militia—Charles Robert Kerr Hubback, Gent., to be Lieutenant, Feb. 23. BANKRUPTS. James Wilks, wheelwright, Crimscott-street, Bermond sey, to surrender, March 10, at one, and April 11, at twelve, at the Court of Bankruptcy. Lee, official assignee, Moorgate-street ; Holman and Robinson, Bridge-street, Southwark. Joseph Flint, shoe manufacturer, Sheffield, 11th March and Bth April, at twelve; at the Leeds District Court. Browin, official assignee, Sheffield ; W. and B. Wake, Sheffield. Walter Fitch Hart, tailor, Brighton, March 8, and April 12, at half2tax e lye, atJhe Court of Bankruptcy. Pennell, official assignee, Basinghall-street ; J. and J. H. Linklater, Sise-lane. Robert Nodes Newton, gas engineer, Southwark, Surrey, March 14, at two, and April 11, at one, at the Court of Bankruptcy. Lee, official assignee, Moorgate-stree t ; Collins, Blackfria rs. Thomas Staniforth, joiner and builder, Sheffield, March 11, and April 8, at twelve, at the Leeds District Court. Brewin, official assignee, Sheffield ; Webster, Sheffield. Henry Huggins, printers' joiner, Manchester, March 10, and March 31, at twelve, at the Manchester District Court. Hernaman, official assignee, Manchester ; 'lamp oon and Sons, Manchester. SCOTCH SEQUESTRATIONS. Patrick Barry, shipowner, Arbroath. John Annan, flax spinner, Lydox Mill, Cupar, Fife. John Smith, ironfounder and manufacturer, Inverness. PRIZE MONEY. LONDON, Feb. 24. Notice is hereby given to Captain T. L. Massie, and the officers and crew of her Majesty's ship Cleopatra, who are entitled to share in the bounty money awarded for the destruction of piratical junks in the China Seas on the 25th and 26th days of June, 1851, that the distribution thereof will be made on the 24th of March next, at No. 1, James street, Adelphi, and when the list will be re-called every Tuesday and Friday according to act of Parliament. Captain Second class l4 4 11 Third class Fourth class. Fifth class 3 12 9i Sixth class 3 8 4 Seventh class Eighth class... 1 2 9t Ninth class Tenth class Woodhead and Co., Agents. MARKET INTELLIGENCE. ( From the London New Price Current of this day.) SUGIR.—To-day both refiners and grocers were desirous to do business in West India, and the rates paid were fully equal to those of Friday, bat demand was checked by an indifferent assortment. Operations were 250 hhds, &c., and the market closes with a Arm appearance. REFINED.—To-day large purchases were made in refined sugar by home dealers, and, the currency closed fi rm ly a t 44s for brown, and 45s to 43s 6d for low to fine grocery lump. Crushed sugar more in demand for export at pre vious rates. FOREIGN.—To-day the market for foreign sugar presen ted a firm appearance; thore was no public sale, and pri vately several parcels were taken for shipping and home trade purposes, the rates obtained being fully equal to last week. COCOA.—There is no advance for British plantation, but large purchases have been made—Trinidad, red at 34a 6d to 305., grey 31s Gd to 34s Gd., and French 3la to 355. MoLessEs.—There are now few buyers, but supply keeping small prices are prevented from declining. COFFEE.— To-day there was an improvement in the de mand for plantation Ceylon, and at public sale 40 'casks 700 bap sold at full prices ; good quality 55s 6d to 665, mid 59s to 611, low mid 57s to 58s, other kinds 53s to 56s 6d, triage 41s to 535, black 31s 6d to 335, and good peaberry 665. The market for native is still dull at 46s 6d to 47s 6d. On 'Change 600 bags native Ceylon coffee were stated to have changed hands at 47s for good quality. TEA.—The prices accepted were for low to good ord Is Oid to is ld, rather blackish to blackish leaf is lid to Is 4d, strong Pekoe sorts 13 5d to 2s 4d, with all faults Is 24d to is 104 d, and low ditto is per lb. Green con tinues in plentiful supply, and Canton kinds are dull of sale at a reduction of 4d to ld per lb. RUM.—To-day the market closed flatly at a reduction in price ; Leeward Island selling at 3s 9d to 3s 10d. proof. TALLovv.--Since this day week Russian has been in good demand for consumption and speculative purposes. The latest prices obtained have been 62s 6d to 63s on the spot for first sort P.Y.C., and for delivery 63s Od to 63a 6d per cwt. OlLS.—Many parcels of palm have been sold, and mid to find quality realised 44sto, 464.6 d. Cocoa nut has been in active request, and prices are firm; Cochin at 50s 6d to 51s 6d. Ceylon 49s 6d to 50s 6d, and other kinds 47s to 48s 6d. In linseed oil there is a material increase in purchases both for the home and foreign markets, and the prices paid are 33s 9d to 34s for immediate delivery. COURSE OF EXCI Amsterdam 11 14 Ditto. three months .. 11 16 Rotterdam ...... 11 16% Antwerp 25 20 Brussels .• ••.•••• • .• • • 25 20 Hamburgh ............ 13 4% Altona ............ Paris.... •• • 25 0 Ditto, three months .. 25 32% 1 • • • 25 32% Bourdeaux ............ 1 Frankfort-on-Maine .... 118% Berlin .• •• •••• •• •• Vienna ...• ....... ..... 13 10 Trieste .• 13 20 Petersburgh •••••• • • .• • • 35 Cadiz 50% Barcelona ••• • •• ..• •• • • Seville ................ lANGE—Tao DAT. Gibraltar •.••••• • .• .• • • Leghorn ...... .. Genoa Milan !Venice ••.•.•••• • •• •. • • Naples Palermo •• .• .• •• •• .• 12 %, !Messina Lisbon •• •• .• •• •e .• 531 k Oporto ,Rio Janeiro .• ••••.• • . • • Buenos Ayres `New York. 60 days' sight Philadelphia • , PRIM or intioN, PEN oz. Foreign Gold In Bus £3 17 9 Portugal Gold Coin 0 0 0 Mexican Dollars .... 0 0 0 New Dollars 0 0 0 -Inver in bars ...• 0 0 0 COUNTRY MARKETS. CHELMSFORD-7ms. 24. Prima to-day were se follow :—Wheet, white, oil 70. t. to 853 Od, new 70. to 85s ; red, old 58s to 80s, new 61. t, 80s ; barley, 28s to 365 ; chevalier, 35s to 405 ; 21s to 30s ; malt, 61s to 65s ; chevalier, 648 to 70s • oats, 22s to 29s ; peas, partridge, 40s to 458 ; white, 483 to 5Js boiling 55s to 61s ; dun, new, 41s to 418 ; beans, tick, 4Cs to 423 ; Harrow ti c k s , 38 s t o 44s ; Mazagan, 38s ' to 41s. COLCHESTER —FEB. 25. We had a better demand for wheat to-day, and prices must be noted is to 2s per qr. dearer. Barley was also dearer, say is per qr. on every description. Beans and peas were not much in request, and no change in value from last week. Prices to-day were as follow :—Wheat, white, 803 to 901§; red, 76s to 81s ; barley, 40s to 465; oats, 26s to 303 ; beams, Mazagan, 40s to 44i ; niiddle - and small, 41s to 58s ; peas, white, 60s to 64s ; grey, 46s to 50s. COAL MARKET.—Fss. 27. Prices of Coal per ton at the close of the market :-.... 8 . d. s. d. Buddle W. Hartley 22 0 Longridge's Wat Hartloy2l 6 Carr's Hartley 2l 6 Old Adairs 19 0 Chester Main 19 6 Canfield. Moor Butes 2(1 0 Davison's West Hartley 21 6' West Hartley 22 0 Hasting's Hartley 22 OiCowpen 25 0 Hartlepool West Hartley 2U 6 Ships at market ... 153 Sold 64 [ADVERTISEILENT.]—HoIIoway's Ointment and Pills certain remedies for Old Sores and Ulcers.—Copy of a letter from Mr. John Johnson, of Tregaron, Wales, dated December 19, 1853 :—"To Professor Holloway. Sir,—For twelve years I was afflicted with sores on my legs and arms, which gradually broke out into ulcerous wounds, and disabled me from following any of the active duties of life. I tried a variety of medicines, and applied severg liniments, without benefit ; but a friend recommended me to use your ointment and pine which completely healed tha wounds and restored me health, after every other means had failed."—Sold by all druggists, and at Professor Holloway's Establish• meat, 20, Strand, London, SPORTING NOTE: SAYINGS AT STITLTFORD. The information which I have gathered from 40 "Manchester men 7 respecting the Liverpool Steeples chase is scircely sufficient to compensate me for the trouble and fatigue of the long and tedious journey by the night mail train. The betting fraternity here evi dently hold divided opinions respecting the two leading favourites, Miss Mowbray and Bourton—the horse lax ing perhaps the largest number of supporters. MO warmest partizans declare, and with a good show Of reason too, that he is a stone better than when he was defeated by Oscar at Warwick, and that he will " turn the tables on his old opponents as sure as he is a horse." The extra half-mile, however, will, I fancy, be the greatest drawback from Bourton's success. Besides. too, the character of the ground at Aintree has been rendered unusually severe. I am informed—whether credibly or not I am unable to determine—that at the desire of the Miss Mowbray party, the land has in parts been ploughed a fresh, and that an increased "stiffishness" has been given to the different leaps. Last night, Miss Mowbray and Oscar were at Bir mingham, en route to Aintree. Both are said to be in the finest bloom of condition ; Oscar, in particular, is greatly admired. To day, a growing disposition was evinced to back him, and at 15 to .1 many investments were made. This movement exercised a depressing effect on Miss Mowbray, whose backers evidently "doubted, yet doated," and appeared to let I dare not wait upon I would. Indeed, respecting him and Misa Mowbray much perplexity and uncertainty exists, and some persons do not hesitate to declare that a double game is being played with them. Believing that the running will be regulated by fair play, I do not feel inclined to alter my opinion reepec • mg the superiority of Miss Mowbray's chance. Should, - however anything occur to - prevent her success, Bourtou may achieve the victory, Spring, Bedford, and Crabby are the best of the outsiders, my opinion as to their ra sp ec tive chances-being in accordance with the order in which I have set down their names. It is somewhat difficult to indicate accurately the pro• bable starters ; but, as Mr. Bucket would say, from in formation I have received, I am induced to believe that the field will comprise the following horses : Age at lb Age et lb Peter Simple a 12 0 Spring 6 9 10 Bourton a 11 12 Napoleon 11. 5 9 10 Oscar a 11 12 Trout (including 10 Miss Mowbray all 9 lb. extra) a 910 Peter Half-and-Half ... a 10 8 Cockcrow Abd-el-Kader a 10 6 Labyrinth, Bedford (h b) a 10 4 Forest Lad......... a 9 6 LaGazza Ladra a 10 0 Timothy a 9 0 Lady Arthur a 9 10 squire of Mallon a 9 4 Maurice Daley Star of England... a 910 Burnt Sienna , a 812 The doubtful starters are printed in italics. The sport at Stretford requires no particular com ment. It was seemingly got up to afford the Manchester men an opportunity for enjoying a half holiday. The first race was decided at about twenty minute. past three, and the last not until nearly dusk. Manchester, Monday Night. A FRESH MAN. ARRIVALS AT LIVERPOOL. STEEPLECHASE.—Peter Simple, Bourton, Oscar, Mi'l Mowbray, Peter, Half-and-Half, Bedford, La Gass* Ladra, Maurice Daley, Cockcrow, Kiiquade, Laby rinth, Comeaway, Crabbe, Burnt Sienna, Royalty, Timothy, Faugh-a-Ballagh gelding, Spring,.and Trout. Abd-el-Kader is scratched. FOR OTHER RACES.—Alonzo, Juliet, Cripple, An• dromache, SOngster, Yewtick; and Kilquade. ,SPORTING. INTELLIGENCE. TATTE RSALL'S. --MONDAY. Speculation on the. Liverpool Grand National wag carried on with considerable spirit. The horses in most demand were Crabbs and Half- and-Half ; the former at 100 to 8, 11 to 1, and finally 10 to 1, and the latter at 12 and 11 to 1. Crabbs wag. however, much the stronger of the two. Bourton was very firm at the odds quoted, but Mies Mowbray was evidently tottering : 600 to 100 was laid in one bet. Some money was put on Cockcrow at 20 to 1. and two or three poneys were intrusted to Burnt Sienna at 25 to 1. Peter's average price was about 100 to 6. METROPOLITAN STAKES.-500 to 25 taken about Mue• oovite, and 625 to 25 about Rataplan. Notking aloe mentioned. CHESTER Cur.—Newminster was backed for 501. at 20 to 1, odds which were repeatedly offered against The Star of Surrey, who appears to have reached the calum niating point, and is beginning to grow dim. Two THOUSAND GUINEAS STAKES.—A slight reaction took place with regard to. Boiardo-400 to 100 was booked. DERBY . —Autocrat was still suffering from the blow* which had been recently dealt upon him at the club. 5 to 1 was now and then taken, but only to a compara tively small amount. The opposition which he has ex perienced may, however, be only a ruse de course. King. Tom was backed for up war d s o f 3501. a t 7 t o 1, an d Dervish improved a point or two ; after 15 to 1 had be - eIL laid to 501., 14 to 1 was taken to the like sum ; 1,000 to 50 taken about Ruby ; 550 to 25 Acrobat ; 400 to 117 twice, and 1,000 to 30 Marsyas ; 2,000 to 50 Bonus ; and 1,250 to 25 The Early. Bird. CLOSEYG PRICES. LIVERPOOL GRAND NATIONAL STEXPLICHASIL 6to 1 agst Miss Mowbray (taken). 7to 1 agst Bourton (taken). 10 to 1 agst Crabbs (12 to 1 taken freely). 11 to 1 agst Half-and-half (taken). 12 to 1 agst La Gazza Ladra (taken). 14 to 1 agst Maurice Daley (taken). 15 to 1 agst Oscar (taken). 16 to 1 agst Peter (taken). 20 to 1 agst Cockcrow (taken). 20 to 1 agst Lady Arthur (taken). 25 to 1 agst Burnt Sienna. 40 to 1 agst bl gby Faugh-a-Ballagh (taken). GREAT METROPOLITAN STAKES. 20 to 1 agst Muscovite (taken). 25 to 1 agst Rataplan (taken) CHESTER CCP. 20 to 1 agst Newminster (taken). 20 to 1 agst Star of Surrey (offered). THE TWO THOUSAND. 4to 1 agst Boiardo (taken). DERBY. 9to 2 agst Autocrat (5 to 1 taken). 7to 1 agst King Tom (taken freely ). 14 to 1 agst Dervish (taken). 20 to 1 agst Ruby (taken). 22 to 1 agst Acrobat (taken). 33 to 1 agst Marsyas (taken). 40 to 1 agst Bes Sus (taken). 50 to 1 agst The Early Bird (taken). TEN GOODIVOOD-STUD.—We regret to find that the Duke of Richmond's determination to break up his racing establishment is finally made. The hones are advertised to be sold at Tattersall's on Monday, March 13. STRETFORD STEEPLCHASES.—MONDAY. • The STRETFORD STEEPLECHASH, a free Handicap of 3 sm, each, with 25 added. Optional selling weights, &c. About three miles and a half. • Mr. Harding's Royal 'Bine, aged (201.), 9st Mb ke) 1 Mr. E. Edward' s Diana b), aged (20/.) (A ~ Bst Clar 13Ib (W. Wh) 2 Mr. C. Higgin s ' s , C oun t ess , age d (201.), 9st 101 ite b Weaver ) The following also ran : , —Smilax, Locomo ( tive, Take Notice. .• Betting-2 t o 1 apt Royal Blue ;sto 2 apt Diana ; 4 to 1 agst Countess. Won by three lengths, a neck between the second and third, Locomotive was fourth. Smilax fell at the fur ther side of the course. Take Notice stopped short at the road the first time round, and pitched her jockey over her head into ~the ditch. The MANCHESTER STEEPLCIIASS, a free Handicap of S sovs, each, with 50 added ; winners extra ; the second to save his stake. About three miles and a half. Mr. B. Land's Theodine, 5 yrs, 9st 131 b (Green) 1 Mr. Thompson's Th e D uc h ees , aged, 9st )21b (H, Limplugh) 2 Mr. Hardiug's Luke the Labourer, aged, 9st. 41b. carried 9st. 61b. The following also ran :—The Old Rake, Frederic, and Braggadocio. Betting-7 to 4 each aget Old Rake and Theodine. Won by a length and a half. Same distance between the second and third. Old Rake fell, but finished fourth. The Railway Stakes of 20 sovs., for four yrs old and upwards, optional selling weights, about two miles, were G ra y, and Countes s — th e last named, who won by Take Notice, beating Kilkenny, Fli r t, Locomo tive, Polly was the favourite, fell. BIRTHS. OF A. SON. On the 25th inst., at Leeds, the wife of Captain Bay ly, Royal Artillery. On the 25th inst., at Dulwich, the wife of David Allan• dice, Esq., manager of the Royal British Bank, Lambeth. OF A DA.UGIITER. On the 25th inst., at Bianicote, Nottinghamshire, Mrs. Richard Enfield. On the 25th inst., the wife of Philip Woolley, Esq.. of Stoneoot•hill, Sutton, Surrey. MARRIED. On the 25th inst., at St. Pansras Church, Mr. George James li'Lennan of Osnaburg-streot, Re gen t's-park, to Frances, younge s t' daughter of the late Charles Goodall, Esq., of Kentish-town. On the 25th inst. at St. Luke's, Chelsea, Alfred Harri son Pag e , youngest' son of the late Samuel Page, Esq., of Dulwich, S urrey, to Leonora, eldest daughter of Archibald Webb, Esq., of Trafalgar-lodge, Chelsea. DIED. At Melbourne, Australia, on the 7th of November, Alice, youngest daughter of T. T. A'Beckett, Esq., in tke fifth year of her age. On the 25th inst., at Woodstock, after s few hours' ill ness, Colonel John Neave Wells. C. 8 ., late Royal Engl- neerB, son of the late Admiral Wello, of Holme, Hants. On the 25th inst., at his seat, near Kelburn, Longford, Lieutenant-General James Hay, C. 8., Colonel of the 79th Highlanders, a most distinguised Peninsular officer. LONDON: Printed and Published by lILTILDO YOUNG, •f No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, No. 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in tho county of Middleo; ThElday,'Yvbruars 2i, 186. neat, Depart Two in Two in Nato Two In Intel' One in On• in One in t Two in the C °reel Testa Lure L° ................. L° A On al month The • 'The 1 will prc A no' at 4.20 7.15 pa The 6.15 p.il from th A ne at inter The I at 10.41 For Cornpai Wate —___ ST The( Genera East rn First. Rates With ev Full Landon X .B. are rea, the Ban .Iron, 8 been cil Storekr day ix A Ca in to the Sto in Pall• LAW Lo T F and Ire the 14t such pe lag at 4 tit fort A fot Will be be anthori liver and be and nau signed the per ()Rime and In 3d Mal inch deliver immed lons of Butts, the me The ceivin& The tender any in pose, 8 Eye] and bf Must a Pair ranted Painfu been e Buperi rate ill Stechi Cue 0 and SI N' Lo 14, Lo MI Rhos axeli with prig 'U ing may wh hoc ot►+ par the the etit exi