The Sun. — London, England, 1854-12-23 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS-4-(YESTERDAY.) The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack at five n'elock. BURIAL GROUNDS. _ _ The Bishop of LONDON moved for a return of the number of burial grounds that at present remain open, and also a return specifying the number of interments that have taken place therein during the present year. Ordered. THE MILITIA BILL. The Duke of NEWCASTLE moved the third read ing of this bill. The bill was accordingly read a third time and passed. SAVI2 , .( - 4S BANKS. Lord MONTEAGLE, in moving for some returns took the opportunity of correcting a mis-statement that bad appeared in a morning paper, , The paper in ques tion made it appear that he had stated that the interest of the depositors had been materially affected by the mea sures of the Government. He bad not only denied that he bad used such an expression, but he had expressed a totally different opinion. The noble lord moved for a return of the statement of exchequer deficiency and other bills in anticipation of the public revenue issued in each quarter since the sth of April last up to the sth of April, 1855. What are the dates of their issue, the dates if redemption, and amount outstanding on the sth of January, 1355, setting forth nisi) the rate percent. of in terest mid in each quarter upon. such description of bills ; showing also out of what funds they had been redeemed. (Hear, hear.) Of all Exchequer bills or other Government securities purchased and taken by the Bank of England during the said period ; of all sales or purchases of stock or other securities by the Commissioners of the National Debt ; of all values in the Exchequer during the quarter of the same period ; of the additions to and reductions of the funded and unfunded debt for the same period; and of all PIIIIIS certified after the expiration of each quarter by the Lords Commis sioners of the Treasury to the Commissioners for the re duction of the National Debt. Earl GRANVILLE said her Majesty's Govern ment had no objection to the return. Return ordered accordingly. Their lordships then adjourned till a quarter before nine to-morrow morning. HOUSE OF COMMONS.-(THIS EVENING.) The SPEAKER took the chair Rhortly before 4 o'clock. Mr. LAYARD presented a petition from an individual Darned Smith, praying that he might have an opportunity (luring the war of trying experiments with some new de strdctive missile which he alleged he had discovered. SAVINGS BANKS BILL. THE CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER brought in the Savings Bank Bill, which was read a first time and ordered to be printed. THE TEA DUTIES. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER gave notice that, in the event of the continuance of the war, it was the intention of the Government to propose, when the time ar rived for making the financial statement of 1855.6, that the duty upon tea instead of falling progressively to•ls. per lb. should continue at ls. 61. per lb. until peace was restored. TAXES ON KNOWLEDGE. Mr. BRIGHT drew the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the fact that the Inland Revenue De partment had resolved to prosecute an unstamped Notting ham publication. Now so long as the Telegraph Company were allowed to publish their information without a stamp, some leniency ought to be shown to occasional publica tions that publish intelligence on the subject of the war. MILITARY UNIFORMS. Mr. EWART wished to inquire of the Sesretary-at- War what measures had been or would be adopted for the assimilation, as far as may be practicable, of the uniforms of officers and privates in the army ? Mr. S. HERBERT (Secretary-at-War) said the new pat tern in the army had done away with the distinction be tweeP. the dress of the officers and privates. CORPORALS' PAY. Mr. PELLATT asked the Secretary-at-War whether a corporal, having good-conduct money in addition to his usual pay, would be deprived of that allowance on his promotion to the rank of serjeant, so that his aggregate , ray might be reduced below what he had previously en joyed as a corporal ; if so, what were the reasons, and had Government contemplated a remedy for such apparent in justice! Mr. S. HERBERT said his attention had already been drawn to this subject, and he intended to draw up an alte ration in the warrant which would be immediately promul gated to meet this particular case. SICK AND WOUNDED IN THE CRIMEA. Mr. WHITESIDE asked what number, according to the very latest accounts of the soldiers who were landed in the Crimea, were in hospital ; and what proportion of p a y , if any, wa s deducted from each soldier while so iu hospital? Mr. S. HERBERT said the last returns he had received were dated the 25th of Nov. and sth of Dec. The last ac count from Balaklava gave as in the hospital 2,395, while in the hospital at Scutari the number was 3,550 ; making a total of 5,915 ; but he was afraid the next accounts would make a considerable addition to that number. With regard to the second question, the amount of stoppage from each soldier in hospital was 3id a day, being the same amount of stoppage that was made for rations. Sir J. WALSH asked if these numbers included the wounded as well as the sick ? Mr. S. HERBERT said the figures included both sick and wounded. MINIE RIFLES. Major REED asked whether such rifles as may be col lected after an engagement are distributed as soon as pos sible among those regiments previously armed with the old musket, or whether they are placed in store ; also, if it was the intention of her Majesty's Government to substitute the Minie rifle for the present musket generally throughout the army in the Crimea, and, if so, whether any and what measures had been taken to carry out that object ? Mr. S. LIER,BERT was not able to give any answer to the question as to what was done with tho rifles found in the field, but, of course, it would create much confusion if Mini 6 rifles were only here and there distributed amongst divisions armed- with the common weapon. (Hear, hear.) With respect to the intention of the Go vernrvut for the future, it was intended to ann the whale army in the Crimea with the Minie rifles, and they wore being issued as fast as they could bo brought in. PUBLIC-HOUSES IN SCOTLAND. Mr. COWAN wished to ask the Lord Advocate of Scot land if he had reason to believe that the act for the better regulation of public-houses in Scotland, passed in 1853, has been fairly put—in-operation within the Royalty and -under the jurisdiction of the magistrates of the city Of Edinburgh ; if he bad received any complaints that beyond these bounds and in the Sheriff Courts and Justice of Peace Courts this law was virtually a dead letter ; and whether in this case itjwashis intention to apply a remedy or to introduce any legislative measure in order to secure a more fair and uniform administration of the statute re ferred to? The LORD ADVOCATE had no reason to think that the act had not been thoroughly put:la operation. With regard to the latter part of the question, it might become matter for serious consideration whether any alteration should be made in the law. THE SLAVE TRADE. Sir G. B. PECHELL asked if any information had been received that the new Government in Spain had given effect to those decrees relative to the abolition of the slave trade and the registration of slaves in the island of Cuba which were issued about the month of June last : Also, whe ther the number of cruisers on the coasts of Cuba had been increased, as was promised last session and in conformity with the report of the Select Committee on Slave Trade Treaties. Lord J. RUSSELL said the Government of Franco had done its best to put in force their desire, but as yet no ac counts on that head had been received from the new Governor• General Concha. The General, however, on leaving Madrid, promised to do his utmost to suppress the slave trade, and he had no doubt the General would fulfil his promise. Sir J. GRAHAM, in reply to the second question, said be had to state that since the end of the last ,session the squadron on the coast of Cuba had been greatly augmented, and the admiral had been entrusted with most ample die- , cretion for taking such steps as he should deem necessary for suppressing this hateful traffic. RUSSIAN BLOCKADE OF MEMEL. - - - Mr. DISRAELI wished to know whether the First Lord of the Admiralty had received an account of the blockade of the port of Memel by the Russians ? Sir J. GRAHAM said, so far from having received any such information, he had reason to believe no such blockade had been established. He had received a despatch from Admiral Chads, dated Elsinore, the 15th of December, stating that our fleet was still in the Baltic, and if any Russian ships had appeared off Memel, they would have been inevitably attacked. DUCHY OF OLDENBURG. Mr. OTWAY asked the President of the Council whether any communications had passed between her Majesty's Government and oar Minister at Berlin relating to the acquisition by Prussia of a part of the Duchy of Oldenburg, and to the intention of the Prussian Government of form ing a naval arsenal in the Jande ? Lord J. RUSSELL said her Majesty's Government re - Lord some time ago information that Prussia had acquir ed part of Ur Duchy of Oldenburg, and that it was the intention of Prussia to form such into a naval arsenal. The Governments of Hanover and Brunswick were likely to remonstrate against this alteration of part of the Duchy, but the British Government had not thought it necessary to make any representation to the Court of Berlin on the subject. FOREIGN ENLISTMENTS. Oolonel DUNNE inquired if any officers—mentio nin g the name of one—had yet been retained to command some of the troops to be raised under the Foreign Enlistment Bill? • Mr. S. HERBERT said the bill had not yet received Parliamentary sanction, and until that had taken place Government had no authority to move in the matter. CHRISTMAS RECESS. • Lard J. RUSSELL gave notice that, in the event of the Foreign Enlistment Bill passing to-night, he should propose to-morrow that the house, at its rising, -should adjourn until Tuesday, the 23rd January, 1855. ENLISTMENT OF FOREIGNERS BILL. Lord J. RUSSELL moved that this bill be read a third time. Sir E. DERING moved as an amendment that it be, read a third time that day six months. The hon. baronet wished to draw attention to the very unsatisfactory na ture of the reply which had been given by the Govern ment to the pertinent question which had been put to them by the right hon. gentleman the member for Oxford. shire. The right hon. gentlemen (Mr. Henley) had asked whether any special provision would be made for the sup port of the wives and soldiers of these enlisted foreigners? The noble lord admitted that those persons would be con sidered as casual poor, and their maintenance would by the present law devolve upon the parishes in which they hap pened to reside. The noble lord promised to consider the point, but he ought to have been prepared with a more definite answer upon a point of such importance. He (Sir E. Dering) did not object to the foreign legion being brought hero to b e trained ; his objection to he bill rested upon an entirely diff er ent ground. tho country had been asked to submit to what would bo at least the humiliation of having recourse to foreign troops, the Go vernment ought at least to have made out a case of over• whelming necessity for such a step. Now, he (the hon. baronet) was prepared to contend that if external aid were necessary, there were other and far more • unexceptionable sources from whence assistance Might have been derived. Besides, the measure would only prove a failure. He was quite ready to admit that reinforcements of trained soldiers were needed in the Crimea, but they would not be able to E SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENIN G, DECEMBER 23, 1854, 11 itirirete against tile encroachments of Russia, and thus to raise a barrier against the acquisition of further territory by that great empire. That was the object announced in the Queen's Speech,—to defend the Turks. Now, I ask, have we not accomplished that object ? Have we not ar rived at that' point when we can say, all that was promised in the Queen's speech has been effected. Russia is no longer within the pale of the Turkish territory. Russia, I believe, has'renouuced all intention of invading Turkey; and now we have, according to the noble lord, certain pro posals made from Russia to serve as a basis of peace. What are those proposals? In the first place there is to be a joint protectorate, by the Five Great Powers of Europe, of the Christians of Turkey. There is to be a joint guarantee for the rights and privileges of the Principalities. There is to be a revocation of the rule laid down in 1841 with regard to the right of entrance of ships of war into the Black Sea ; and the Danube is to be free to all nations. These are the propositions that are made for peace on behalf of Russia, as we are told by the noble lord ; and what I want to ask the house is whether it is not competent for us to offer an opinion, at the present moment, as to the desirability of treating on these terms. My first reason for, urging that wo should entertain those terms is this :—We are told that Austria and. Prussia have agreed to those terms. Now, Austria and Prussia are more interested in this quarrel than England is—a great deal more than England ought to be. On that point I quote the weeds of Lord Palmerston, in Febritary last :—" It was of the uttnost importance in a matter affecting the great interests of Europe, , that . though England and France were from the beginning heartily, cordially, and entirely together, we should en deavour to obtain the concurrence of Austria and Prussia. We knew that those two countries had an interest in the metier more direct and greater than had either England or France. To Austria and Prussia it is a vital matter, a matter of existence—because if Russia were either to ap propriate any lari're portion of the Turkish territory, or even to reduce Turkey to the condition of a mere de pendent state, it must - be manifest to any man who casts a glance over the map of Europe,. and who looks at the geographical position of those two powers with regard to Russia etnci Turkey, that any considerable accession of power on the part of Russia in that quarter must be fatal to the independence of action of both Austria and Prussia." I agree with the noble lord in Iris view of the interest which Austria and Prussia have in this war, but what I want to ask is this—Why should we ask greater guarantees against the encroachments of Russia than Austria and Prussia are content with ? Austria and Prussia lie on the frontier and on the very borders of tho empire, which you say threatens us 'with BO much danger. You cannot have an invasion of the Russians unless they pass over Austria or Prussia. Is it likely, if all we hear about the danger of western Europe being overrun by Russia be true that Austria and Prussia would not be sensible of that fact ? And ought we not rather to take as a proof that we have exaggerated the danger and the power of Russia to invade western Europe, the fact that Austria and Prussia are not more alarmed about - it than they are? (Hear.) They are not concerned about this invasion, or they would evidently be anxious to join England anst Franca in the great battle with Russia, - in order to drive her back within her own dominions. And if they aro willing to accept these four propositions, why should we not entertain them ? Let me ask any ra tional person- Do you suppose if Russia really meditated an attack upon Austria or Germany, if she really contem plated annexing a single province of that empire, even if it were only one of the small places of 100,000 inhabitants whiah,are comprised in that family,—that the whole of Germany would not be united to resist it? Is there not a strong national feeling in that race ? Are they not nearly 40 millions in number, but are they not most brave, most intelligent, and have they not proved themselves the most patriotic race in Europe ? And if they are not prepared to stir, if they are satisfied with the prepositions laid down in this Vienna note, why should we be more in danger, why should we stand out for further conditions, why should we. . make great efforts in order to obtain securities which they do not require ? I may be told that the Governments and the peoples of Germany are not acting in harmony. It is dangerous for hon. gentlemen to assume that governments do not represent, peoples. How would you like the United States of America to apply that doctrine to you ? But I will venture to deny the ground on which that opinion is formed. I have taken some trouble to ascertain what the feeling in Germany is upon the war. If you could poll the entire population of Prussia, I have no doubt whatever that nineteen -twentieths of them would say that in this quarrel England is right and Russia is wrong. (" Hear, hoar," from Lord John Russell.) And more, they would say that they wish for the success of England as against Russia. But, on the contrary, if you poll the same popu lation as to whether they would join in this war, and help England with an army to fight against Russia —I believe, from all I hear, that nineteen-twentieths of the population of Prussia would support their king in his present policy of peace, And what is the advantage of having the opinion of a population like that on your side in the quarrel, if they will not join you in the war? For I draw a wide distinction between an opinion formed in a country, and the people going to war in support_of that opinion. I have no objec tion to people in this country having a strong opinion about Russia and Turkey; but I think we have been too precipitate in transferring that opinion into acts, and rush ing into war. Had England abstained from war, and been content to occupy the same ground as Austria and Prussia, I believe the result would have been that Russia would have left the Principalities, and re-crossed the Pruth ; and I believe that, without a single shot being fired, you would have accomplished the object which you are seeking. Now, what are the grounds on which we are to continue this war when Austria and the German States aro acquiescing in these propositions ?- Is war a luxury ? People say, "Do you deny the justice, the right of Turkey in this war?" And it is 'assumed, if I admit the right of a country, that I must immediately go to war to rectify a wrong. We are much too hasty in doing this. If you say we are justified in going on because a certain wrong has been done, and (what used to be a cant phrase in Mr. Pitt's time) we want indemnity for the past and security for the' future—well probably es to the abstract merits of the questions between the Russian and the Turkish Governments, it would be difficult for me to give a verdict favourable to Russia. But aro we to be the Don Quixotes to go and fight all over the woild wherever anybody is wronged? If so, where iv it to cod ? In all quarrels there is a right and a wrong ; we are often mixed up with one side or the other ; and if wo make up our minds to fight for the right, we shall never be at peace. If we assume that the weaker power is in the rigkt . „ we shall often be in the wrong. I believe that littltts-lvell as little' people, are often very troublesome; (A hugh.) But, assuming that wo desire peace, and that it is desirable in the interests of this country, that we should have peace 7 what ground is there, on the score of honour, valour, or interest, to render it im possible for us to treat for peace on the terms mentioned by the noble lord? The noble lord communicated that proposition to us a few nights ago, and therefore it is com petent to us to discuss the grounds for continuing the war. I maintain that neither our honour nor our interest is involved in refusing the terms which have been pro posed. Our object is to protect our Turkish ally from the attacks of Russia. The other question, as regards the fall of Sebastopol, is not the point in question; it is a matter of detail connected with the carrying on of the war. If we took Sebastopol we would then treat of peace. lam not going to argue against the power of England and France. I believe that with their resources, properly ap plied, they are capable of doing anything. I admit you can take Sebastopol ; that you can Occupy ten square miles of hostile territory ; that you may build a town there ; that you may build it of marble, and Surround it with a wall stronger than that'of China ; having the command of the sea a nd almost boundless wealth, you may carry there what reinforcements and provisions you please; you may do all this, bat still you would not thereby break the power of Russia. All history shows that sheis a young but vigorous, and, if you like, semi -barbarous nation, with an instinctive consciousness of her own strength; and do you think that she will ever consent to make peace with you whilst you hold a portion of her territory ? (Hear, hoar.) I will sup pose you have taken Sebastopol, and, that object accom plished, I ask you is it worth the sacrifice? (Hear.) That is the question. (Hear.) Does any one doubt that even if you should subdue Sebastopol, it will cost the precious sacrifice of the most valuable lives in the country ? I leave the treasure expended out of the question. We can restore . that, but you cannot restore the valuable lives that fall in battle in the Crimda. These men are probably the most energetic and- bravest—they have, certainly shown the greatest fortitude and endurance of any men that ever left this island—you may sacrifice these men if you like, but you are bound to consider whether the object is great enough to compensate for such a sacrifice. (Hear.) You do not mean, I take it, to occupy the Crimea because you have commenced the sieg e of Sebastopol. What, therefore, is the object of taking it? The noble lord said that the fall of Sebastopol—the stronghold of Russian power— would go far to give that security to Turkey which was the object' of the war. I deny the proposition that Sebas topol is the stronghold of Russian power. Sebastopol is indeed a strong fortress at the extremity of the Russian Empire, and a visible sign of her power, but you will not touch the vitality of that power till yell in some way in terfere with the action of her government—till you strike at her capital, or take away some of the fertile plains of her southern territory, or make yourselves masters of the rivers that flow into the Black Sea. Destroy Sebastopol yon may, but the probability is that in ten years Russia will come to London for a loan, and build it up again stronger than before. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) As for the ships lying in Sebastopol, they are probably crazy seventy-fours, and you could not do a greater ser vice to Russia than to destroy them, 'for she would then build others of a better construction. In France and England we do this with our own vessels. As to the probable rebuilding of the fortress of Sebastopol his tory furnishes a case in point. By the treaty of -Utrecht in 1713, the French king consented. to the destruction of the fortress of Dunkerque. England sent over two commissioners to see the fortress dismantled. The jetties were destroyed; a mole or bank was built across the channel leading to the port. On two successive occa sions that treaty was renewed. A storm came on which swept away the mole. A war broke out soon after between Spain and England. The French Government took advan tage of the circumstance, and that fortress, which had been raised under the direction of Vauban and fortified with all the resources that art and science could supply, was rebuilt and made stronger than : ever. It was on record that in the seven years' war, forty years after it was de stroyed, ,Dunkerque, for the purpose of aggression, was stronger by sea and more formidable than it was pre viously. More than 1,000 English merchant vessels were taken by privateers which issued from that port, and their value was estimated at 1,2-,0,0001. Look at Chefbourg again. In the middle of the last century we were in pos session of that port and also of Toulon. But the power of France was not destroyei thereby. In the same way you would not destroy the power of Russia by the destruction of Sebastopol. All that you would accomplish would bo to leave a rankling wound and venom behind which would only determine Russia to reconstruct the fortress and make it stronger than ever. Some storm would sweep away your mote if you should build one, and this event would be much more likely to occur in the Black Sea than in the Channel. But suppose Sebastopol utterly destroyed, were there no other places, on the Black Sea coast, which might by art and money be converted into as strong fortresses as Sebastopol ? The real way to give security to Turkey was not by destroying Sebastopol, but by improving the in ternal Government of Turkey. And is the continuance of the war likely to further that improvement ? I believe that singe the beginning of the war you have done inure to demoralise Turkey than could ever be accomplished in time of peace. What is wanted to revive Turkey is reform in her Government and her a dministration, a united people, and the development of her resources.. She will not then present the odious spectacle of wretchedness and impoverishment which she now does. Then comes another 'question. You say that you intend to make a treaty by which wo will bind the Eive Powers together for the better treatment of the Chris tian subjects of Turkey. But have you considered the whole extent of the consequences involved in that prin ciple ? You contemplatedoing by means of the Five Powers what Russia did alone and by herself. Will not the critics of the war in America and elsewhere say that we are wrong in going to war to prevent Russia from doing that very thing which we contemplate doing by ourselves in conjunc tion with others ? I can only Five Heaven help Turkey when the has the protectorate of ower i ns t ea d of supply- the Want by passing the bill, For, let it not be forgotten, it was not intended to borrow froni soiled foreign power a corps of troops ready disciplined and equipped ; but what they were really going to do Would be simply to levy rtereits fr o m th e !smeller German states, with the connivance, indeed, of the sovereigns, but without the cognisance of the Diet. (Hear, hear.) He knew it was said that the custom in Germany was to grant to persons who had completed their term of service in the landwehr a passport for the purpose of emigration, and that such passports ipso facto denaturalised the holders of them. He very much doubted whether, no twithstanding this very in genious, if not very dignified proceeding, it would not be in the power of a diet to offer serious impediments to the levying of troops in this way. But suppose they succeeded in thus smuggling out 10,000 mon as emigrants, what time would he required to get them here ? The Government statei that they had as yet entered into no negotiations on the subject, and diplomatic proceedings at the German court were proverbially glow. (Hear.) Then the men were to be brought here, which could not be done in much less than three mouths. A similar period mutt elapse be fore they were equipped, organised, and fit for service. If the bill would not enable them to throw 10,000 men into the 'Crimea in less than six mouths, what did they gain by substituting foreign mercenaries for English soldiers? (Hear.) Ho entertained no jealousy of foreigners, and would be glad to see, not 10,0)0 but 40,030 men, such as couipesed the German legion in the late war, fighting by the ride of our troops. (Hoer.) The Germans who fought with us in the late war were united to us by the ties of a common cause; they were fighting aeain.t e common enemy, that men who had o v errun a great' part of Europe. But what ties or interest in c tmmon would the persons have with us who were proposed to bo enlisted by this bill? Considering the time which it would take to send off 10,030 foreigners their place might easily be supplied by British soldiers. ' Ho regretted to hear from the noble lord that our army was short by 20,03) of the number voted by Parliament. He regretted this statement, because it must be gratifying to the Emperor of mein to learn that our power of recruiting was nearly exhausted. If this were so Government ought to render the service more attrac tive; Parliament would . gladly aid them in doing so. It would be true economy, at such a moment as this, to double the bounty on enlistment. If this and other mea sures were adopted, with the military ardour now existing in this country ; thousands 'would come flock ing in to enlist. Much had been said about raw recruits ; but it should ever be remembered that those who bore the brunt of the battle at Waterloo were not the veterans of the Peninsula, but those who were commonly spOken of as raw recruits. (Hear.) From the recent Austrian treaty, there was every reason to hope that, in a week from this time, a portion of her numerous troops would be brought to our aid. He had not much reliance on that ; but why should we not endeavour to organise the Turks, as had been done with the Portuguese in the Peninsular war ? The Secretary at War had spoken of the Turks being celebrated for fighting behind stone walls ; this was an unworthy observation, and laid the right hon. gentle man open to the same reproof which be had bestowed on Sir E. B. Lytton for depreciating the aid of German volun teers. (Hear.) He was convinced it would be a great assistance if we could organise an efficient body of Turks. Then we had invaluable auxiliaries in our well-trained and experienced Indian troops, comprising men of bravery, such as Major Ed wardes. (Hear.) In proposing this amendment he hoped he should not be charged with a fac tious course towards Government. Both sides of the house admitted the necessity of carrying on the war with vigour and energy; they only differed as to the means by which this was to be done. The measure proposed, while tend ing to depress the energy of our own countrymen, would increase the confidence of Russia. By acting in a spirit of liberality towards our soldiers, the Government might be able to send forth army after army of men such as those who fought at Alma and Inkerman. (Hear.) Mr. COBDEN—If I ask the permission of the house to allow me to enlarge a little on the question before the house I have this excuse, that the subject matter before us has been ably and very fully discussed. There is another rea son why the question may be treated in a more general way as affecting the conduct of the Government in carrying on the war, and in their negotiations. We have heard a great number of hon. members publicly declare that they refuse to entertain the question on its merits, but they persist in voting contrary to their own opinions, simply as a vote of confidence in the Government. I must say I think that, amongst all the evils which attach to a state of war, it is not one of the least considerable that it has so demoralising a tendency upon the members of this house that we are called upon to vote contrary to our conscienti ous conviction, and to allow these votes to be recorded where the explanation of those votes will not appear. It was stated the other night by the noble lord the loader of this house that proposals had been made on the part of the Emperor of Russia through Vienna, for peace upon certain bases, which have beea pretty frequently before the world under the designation of the "four points." I wish to draw attention to that subject; but before I do so, let me promise that I do not intend to say one word with regard to the origin of this unhappy war. I intend to start froth the situation in which- we now find ourselves ; I think that it is the province of this House of Commons to express an opinion upon that situation ; and if it be not as I am going to do, to argue in favour of peace upon the terms announced by the Government, at all events I think hon. members will see that it is absolutely necessary, on the other hand—if the war is to go on, if we are to carry on a war of invasion by land against an empire like Russia—that it should be carried on in a very different spirit and on a very different scale, from what it has hitheito been. I think that both sides of the house will occupy common ground, at least in this respect ; we shall all recognise the propriety, nay, the necessity, before we separate, of discussing these two views of this important and critical question. Before offering an opinion on the merits or desirability of a peace founded on these four points, it will be necessary to ask ourselves what was the cause, the object sought for in 'the war. I mean as a matter of fact. It has always been one of my difficulties, in arguing this question out of doors, with men of sense end intelligence, that I never could conic to a very intel ligible understencilme with nay two people 44. to wha.t_were the objects of the war. I have met with very respec table and well-educated men, who have toll me that the object of the war was to open the Black Sea for merchant vessels, not knowing that tho Black Sea was as free to the merchant flags of all nations as the Bettie. Others have had the impression that the war was to open the Danube, to alloiv ships of all nations to go up the Danube, not knowing that the traffic up the Danube in the last 10 years has multiplied tenfold probably, and that all nations have free access to it. I have heard it stated, and have soon it recorded solemnly.at public , meetings, that we are at war because we had a treaty with the Sultan, binding us to give to him aid, and to maintain the integrity and inde pendence of his empire. At one of the most crowded and exciting meetings ever held, which took place at Leicester, a resolution was moved by a most intelligent gentleman, seconded by another, and passed unanimously, to this effect: "Resolved—that we are bound by the most solemn treaties with the Sultan of Turkey; to defend the integrity and independence of his dominions." Well, Lord Aber deen has ostentatiously declared in the House of Lords, as if for the instruction of such gentlemen, that we had no treaty before the war binding us to defend the dominions of the Sultan. (Hear.) But the general ground of the popularity of the war out of doors has no doubt been cf another character. There has ,been a stron g feeling that Russia has not only absorb ed and oppressed certain na tionalities, but that she has been the prime agent by which Austria has been 'enabled to perpetuate her government over unwilling subjects. I should say that that class of people was fairly represented in tbis house by my lamented noble friend the late member. for Marylebone. (Hear.) The noble lord was one froni whom I differed entirely with re gard to his views on these questions of interference in the affairs of foreign countries, but one for whose private vir tues, disinterested kindness, and boundless generosity I shall ever entertain the greatest veneration. (Hear, bear.) The late Lord D. Stuart, for twenty y e ars, fairly repre sented that popular feeling out of - doors which was directed especially against the Emperor of Russia, and whose sympathies are centred mainly upon those territories that lie contiguous. to that vast empire. I used sometimes to say to him jocularly, " Your sym pathy is gergraphical ; it extends from the Baltic to the Black Sea, bordering on the Russian empire ; or and if ,ever there bo Poles, Hungarians, Wallacbians, Moblavians in distress,. you aro sure to be here to repre sent them. (Hear, hear.) And. if any unfortunate indi viduals from those countries should be refugees here from oppression and misgovernment at home, they come na turally to you for succour." (Hear, hear.) Lord Dudley Stuart represented a great amount of sympathy in the country with reference to t . ego nationalities,; but now I ask whether that force of public opinion which has been founded upon the impression that we were going to war in order to aid the Poles, Hungarians, and others, has not been entirely delis-ive—whether it may not be put down along with those other grounds which I have named—the opening of the Black Sea, the free navigation of the Da nube, and the supposed treaty - with Turkey—as all equally delusive so far as the people out of doors have relied on the Government carrying on the war for these objects. The Government knew that the three first did not exist ; and they know well that they never intended to go to war for the purpose of setting up the Hungarians, the roles, or any of those oppressed nationalities. • I yield to no one in my sympathy for these who aro struggling for liberty in any part of the world. I respect the motives of those who wish to join bands in aiding nationalities to attain their independence or freedom ; but I never will pretend to say that I can sanction a system of propagandism which seeks to establish this or that nationality by force of arms, or any influence, that England can bring to bear, because that is violating a principle which I wish to see carried out in the other direction, in 'opposition to those who in terfere with nationalities for the purpose of putting them down. lam against interference with the affairs of other countries for whatever object it may be sought. At the same time I will admit that if they could show me that a war was likely to advance liberty,- constitutional free dom, or national independence where it is a right, it Would be a very great bribe to me indeed to acquiesce in that war, or to see some compensation for the multiplied evils that war brings in ' its train. We now couinto what I presume is really statesmen's ground Irma, an t at of a for going to war. That t is, f - R to defend t d he h Turkish empire n a e ch t m he en several states of Europe within the t limits. That has sent your objet in carrying on present the present case. But I must say that war with Russia aseghaletimste t f h or e k e e n e c p ro i b has tended very much to embarrass the phraseology which (Russell) these mag this has been mixed up with a great deal of magniloquent question. I off last August before a meeting of who started the led whole world; and since then our slaty to mankind and p T h h r e a noble ses, lord one intended bailli ee and town councillors at Perth. Hetalkedth o er p e r o o f . he has frequently talked of this war as The noble lord said Jet a city meet immediate object of our .tect the liberties of all Europe anidogt-11, cwiveilaisreedenwgoargledd. in a just and necessary war, for no d e own, pen b d n t e t e o defend of u uro a p n e . ancient ha a v l e l maintaining the independence of Europe- at the extreme west of a continent numbering some 200 wordand t o fo m maintain a n i b n o the e o i u n r millions of inhabitants; and the theory isWtheatar t e h s e i r t e u situated d a great and growing power w ich threatens to overrun the continent of Europe, to inflict upon it utter d esolation, like that of the Goth s and Vandals, to eclipse its civilisa tion, and, in fact, doom it to barbarism and darkness. If that continent really t o b e t a t i h w e a f fact, tdoes pushingit notb b e h a c o k v e thist e ofdpeelooigileeof bar barismthe l ue p e r y a t r bo , otaey othear.)nh eth l Aen p fa r a e ce s he l o ni rfß e ist E hee ngland does not pre o fer everybody. At all events if you do, le tr pre tend t s nste set up o l o r ; ta s uhtpt o , no n ns a (ei t y i t o oo n u s, Ny ti fightwill expect expect them to join you in fighting their that all this phraseology, and declamation, battles. I r think purpcse at the beginning, and has raised a fiend that will its not be very easily laid, will' by and bye disappear, when we come to analyse more closely our position, and feel the predicament in which we are placed. But I take ,it for granted that the object of statesmen is to befriend one. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) We are told by the newspapers that there is a mixed commission sitting in Vienna—a kind of court of appeal in the case of the Prin cipalities of Moldavia and Wallachia. Is not this the very principle of interference against which we are contending on behalf of Turkey and against Russia? Would it not be more statesmanlike, instead of appealing to claptraps and to heedless passions out of doors, instead of telling the peo ple of this country that Turkey has made more progress in the last 50 years than any country under the sun, to ad dress ourselves to the real task and difficulty of this ques tion—how you can best reconstructand improve the inter nal state of Turkey. That is what you will have to do. Make peace to-morrow, and Turkey will fall into a state of collapse. If you attempt to leave it, she will fall into a state of anarchy and utter decay. The noblelord (Palmer ston) jauntily told the house and the country on a former occasion in the teeth of the statements of our own ambas sador, Lord Stratford de Redeliffe, and all the blue books, and every person who recently travelled in Turkey, that that country had progressed more in the last 20 years than any other country in Europe. Well, what does Lord Carlisle, the most recent traveller in Turkey, say? (Hear, hear.) Lord Carlisle bears the following testimony to the present condition of Turkey and the Turks :—" But when you leave tho partial splendours of the capital, and the great state establishments, what is it you find over the broad surface of a land which nature and climate have favoured beyond all others, once the home of all art .and ill civilisation ? Look yourself—ask these who live there —deserted villages, uncultivated plains, banditti haunted mountains, torpid laws, a corrupt administration, a dis appearing people." Everybody bears testimony to the Alone effect. All agree that the Mahomedan population of rience that when they wished to hire men it was necessary to pay thegreatest respect, not only to the feelings but to the prejudi.res of the seafaring population, and he thought that they should -be equally careful of the feelings of those whom they asked to enlist as soldiers. When such a spirit of martial ardour and enthusiasm pervaded all ranks it was dangerous to do anything which might damp that ar dour. They had been told that as difficulties and dangers increased, the martial ardour and enthusiasm of the people had risen with them. That enthusiasm was to be attributed to the purest spirit of patriotism ; but if the impression went abroad there was no necessity for such exertions, that Go vernment had a large reserve of foreigners whom they could enlist if our people do not come forward, thelatter would not be so ready to face the dangers and hardships of war. The measure was objectionable, if considered with respect to the effect it would have on the continent of Europe, it would be looked on as a confession of weakness, of a weak ness which had. no existence in reality. The events of the last six months had tended very much to raise the cha racter of England as a great military power. Without any great previous preparation they had, by means of their magnificent steam navy, conveyed an army three thousand miles from home, and had actually landed in the Crimea a larger force than that of the great military nation their Ally. Government would have some excuse for their mea sure if they could say the recruiting power of the country was exhausted, and that it was necessary to look to foreigners. 13at it could not be said that the recruiting power of the country was exhausted when not a single re giment of the Irish or Scotch militia had been embodied. lie would wish the house to consider what effect this change in the constitution of tho British at my would have on the confidence which the French army now felt in it. That mutual confidence had been ono great cause of the success of the Allies in the Crimea. Th ' er French could not have the same confidence in a band of ineserenary foreigners, as in the English, Irish, and Scotch, whose valour they load seen tried in many a herd-fought field. He opposed the bill because ho considered it dangerous, unnecessary, and impolitic. • A messenger from the Lords was introduced, who an• nonneed that their lordships had agreed to the Militia Bill without amendments. Mr. R. J. PHILLIMORE could not but admire the moral courage of the hon. member for the West Riding (Mr. Cobden), but he was surprised that a person of his his acute mental power did not see that the arguments of his .speech had afforded the most complete answer to the object of it. A nation so great and powerful as ours could not afford to be mean ; but even if it was to be reduced to a matter of calculation, he was prepared to show that they had adopted the safest, as well as the noblest course, in de fending Turkey against the aggression of Russia. Those members who supported the Government were charged with having left their convictions in one lobby and carried their votes into another, but he would suggest to hon. gentlemen opposite whether a private individual might not deem it his duty to submit his judgment to the authority of those who from their position were poseessed of official knowledge and information on the subject. He did not look on the measure with eyes of affection, and regretted its necessity; but he placed confidence in the statements of her Majesty's Government, and of the Commander-in- - Chief, and that gallant officer had declared it was necessary as a means of affording relief to the troops in the Crimea. Mr. SANDARS referred to a petition which the right hon. member for Buckinghamshire had presented a few nights ago from the borough of Wakefield, which he had the honour to present. That borough was situate in the centre of the West Riding, and he believed that the peti t: h i o o lea n n t w ry h which sentimentslhf a t d i mnboeete had an dlayd been e t e nt ega districts,v a e largengiven, the meebuttingf e thh x e p e r wh e oh s s uo e sl d ee would have been covered with petitions against the bill. Mr. DIGBY SEYMOUR said the hon. gentleman who had last spoken had said so much respecting a meeting of his constituents, that it had compelled him to rise in order to present the house with a counter fact. Now, he had had to appear before His constituents at Sunderland, and at the meeting there were more than 2,000 persons as sembled. The result was, that all present had raised their hands in favour of his conduct in supporting the present bill. Those 2,000 persons were not wanting in intelligence and ability to judge on the matter. (Hear.) He should . not have addressed the house hod not the hon. member who had last spoken asserted that the expression of the meeting of his constituents was the general opinion of the country. Lord LOVAINE mast support the opposition to the bill, despite the arguments he had heard from the other side of the house. He could not see any splendid effort for the mistakes of the past in the passing of a bill which was derogatory to the honour of the British soldier and the nation to which he belonged. He should like to inquire on what principles the enlistment would be carried on in Germany ; for, from that country, as far as he could learn, the troops were to be drawn. They had not been told anything about that. How was the enlistment to be con trived ? He knew not if it were thought that men could be procured from those emigrating ; but, if so, the scheme would fail. If from the German ranks, that would fail likewise. The men, he thought, would be those who had not shown a proper respect for the laws of their country, and were willing to fight for another. He should be un worthy of ever having stood in the ranks of those now serving before Sebastopol if ho suffered it, even for a mo ment, to go forth that foreigners were ever to be regarded as equal to them in courage and good conduct. As far as he could learn, no foreign regiment we had ever engaged —always excepting the Hanoverian Legion, who were lighting for their own country—could be relied upon for the same amount of service as the British troops. (Hear.) Sir E. PERRY said that, although he felt that the argu ments on the subject matter of the debate had been com pletely exhausted, he yet wished to protest against the language in which lion. gentlemen on the opposite side of the house, and on that, his side, too, described the men whom Government proposed to enlist. He considered that the terms in which hon. gentlemen had stigmatised those men was not becoming a deliberative assembly. Ho would now venture to notice, in a few words, the speech of the hon. member forithe West Riding (Mr. Cobden), and much as he admired his talents, and coincided with his views in politics, he must say that the impression which that speech bad made on the house was similar to that which it had made on him (Sir E. Perry), and that was, that it was ex tremely inopportune. Unless he was mistaken in the state of affairs, when lie considered that England was at present in a very criticaLkosition—lio—ili.ugLi -4},,,A,_ ,h ew - r 5 .11-nr Db . directed to one ohje , :t —to reli , ve the honour and interests of the country from hei , ig suljected to a crisis suoh ai had not been yet known, and that discussions as to the origin of the ivar, or even the coniltut of the - .car, score out of place. Her Majesty's Government were now holding out . their hand to the German feeling that if they got them to enlist under our banner, wo should give to that great nation an opportunity of placing - themselves on a level with the other great Powers of Europe. (Hear.) Mr. EVELYN trusted the C overnmeut would not pledge itself to au indefinite prolongation of the war. It would be most impolitic to continuo a war which might last for, perhaps, 10 or 20 years, if they had all the objectsfor which they went to war offered. If, for the purpose of degrading Russia, they were to continue raising their terms during the progress of the war, they would be only prolonging the conflict without any definite advantage to the country. Mr. BENTINCI( was anxious to state briefly the reasons which would induce him to give his vote against this mea sure. He fully admitted the importance which must at tach to a vote upon the question, and an attempt had been made to give additional importance to the vote to which they wore about to come, by a threat thrown out by her Majesty's Government that the rejection of the measure would lead to their resignation. He was not at all alarmed by that threat. It had been too often made before to pos sess the merit of novelty; and so far as he could gather the feelings of the house and of the country, neither the one nor the other world very much lament the loss. No man was less interested than himself (the hon. member) in the struggles of party warfare, but if a vote of want of confi dence in the present Ministry had been brought forward, he would have given it his support without the slightest hesitation, because ho believed, whatever their ability might be, it was impossible for such a body of men—linked in a coalition without any political combination—to go vern this country with any advantage. (Hear.) He fully concurred with what fell the other night from the hon. gentleman the member for West Surrey (Mr. Drummond), and he regretted extremely that the house ha-1 not been called unon to come to a vote upon that question. He believed it was the opinion of the coun try generally that not only the great sufferings of our troops in the Crimea, but also a great portion of the losses which they had sustained, might be attributed to want of energy and ability on the paart of those who had the con duct of the war ; and therefore he (the hon. member) re peated his regret that the house had not been called upon to come to a distinct vote upon the subject. He fully con curred in the majority of the arguments which had been urged against the measure. Lord EBRINGTON said that ho approached this mea sure with considerable doubt, as one that had justly ex cited the constitutional jealousy on the part of the people of this country, but ho was loath to believe that his noble friend the Lord President, or tho noble lord the member for Tiverton, or his noble friend Lord Lansdowne, would embark in any measure which prejudiced the liberties of the people of England. He was satisfied that the bill might do some good ; and even if it should fail of its ob ject, that at all events it woeld do no harm. He was sur prised to hoar the last speaker putting forward the abandonment of principle on the part of members of the present Government as a reason for opposing this bill, for he (Lord Ebrington) thought he recollected a Government, (the Government of Lord Derby) in which principles very different from each other were held in the same Cabinet — free trade and protection being left an open ques tion. He was therefore rather surprisAl to bear the hoe. gentleman speak in that way. Thank Heaven he was in no way responsible for the principles of the Government, for he had belonged to a party, which did not require a change of principle in that way. In his opinion the ques tion before them was not whether the Government had done all that could be done for the war, but whether the measure before them was advisable or likely to prove use ful in the present state of our affairs. But ninny hon. gentlemen in opposing the bill, had forgotten what they had heard so-often that this was a war of principle and of national good faith undertaken in defence of the liberties of Europe. He denied the apathy of Europe on the subject, for he believed with the hon. member for Devonport, that the Germans, differing from their monarchs and the Rus sian sympathies of their aristocracy, and that a large part of the Sclavonien population sympathised in the objects of this war, viewed as England viewed it, a conflict and a struggle in the cause of liberty and civilisation in Europe. He was sorry that any man should be stigmatised as sicarii and cut-throats, and should be denied that com forting and elevating assurance which results from fighting in a cause which they believed to be just. He believed that the stream of emigration from Germany was occasioned not so much by' the denseness of their population as by their impatience of the rule under which they had been condemned to dwell, an he knew no better initiation into the English love of liberty than that they should fight side ty side with our soldiers. Mr. P. O'BRIEN said he would not have risen if any other Irish member had.exhibitcd any disposition to speak on the question ; but in the absence of any such hope, and after the eloquent speeehe; which he had heard•against the bill, especially from the hon. member for Enniskillen (Mr. Whiteside), and after the vote which he himself had given the other night, he could not do other than state his reasons e f s ?r giving that vote. This was not a party question. The question was whether, at a period when we had no oppor tunity of finding among our militia trained soldiers capable of assisting in the war, all assistance from any quarter was to be denied to those brave men most properly eulogised in that house, who were fighting in defence of the liberties of Europe? He was surprised to hear the number of antagonistic arguments brought forward in support of the same conclu sion. The member for the West Riding trusted that neither Germans nor Swedes would be engaged to fight for us, be cause we were not a military nation, for we were a com mercial nation and a naval power, and could protect our Manchester manufacturers by means of our ships. Such was hie utilitarian view. But the member for one of the divisions of Surrey wished to have an overwhelming force, and then by his vote denied the Government so many even as 10,000 soldiers. The position which they ought on this occasion to take up would be : either by azt expres4 vote of Turkey is dying out owing to their own nameless vices (Hear, hear.) Their social state is not generally known' )ecause it is indescribable. Lord Carlisle restrains himself from referring to their social condition. Dr. Halley stated in itllnchester that his brother, who was fur 35 years phy sician to the embassy in Constantinople, told him that the population of Constantinople, though continually recruited from the provinces, had. diminished during the last 20 years, and he attributed this to the indescribable social 4ate of the Turks. (Cheers.) Will you promote their improvement by war ? From the moment you landed in Gallipoli, when the energy and activity displayed by the French was such that a poor Pacha died from pure die- traction of mind—(laughter)—frem that moment to the present you have done everything to humiliate, discourage, and demoralise still further their population of the Turk ish capital. (Cheers.) Here is what a friend, a colonel in the army, now serving in the Crimea, writes :—" We are degrading the Turk as fast is we can ; he is now the scaven ger of the two armies as far as he can be made so. He won't fight, and his will to work is little better ; he won't be trusted again to try the former, and now the latter is all he is allowed to do. When there are en trenchments to be made, or dead to be buried, the Turks do it. They do it as slowly and lazily as they can, but do it they must. This is one way of raisins the Turk ; it is propping him up on one aide to send him headlong down a deeper precipice on the other." You have an hospital at Scutari where you have thousands of wounded cause of Turkey. What more natural than to suppose Englishmen who received their wounds fighting in the that they would at once receive every care and at tention from the Turkish population of Constantinople, - amounting to 700,000 persons. (Hear.) Yet everything necessary for the wounded has to be sent from this coun try ? (Cheers.) Can anything more clearly prove the utter want of anything like administration or government in Turkey ? Does any one suppose that if our soldiers had been thus wounded in the cause of Prussia that the ladies of Berlin, which had not half the population of Constanti nople, would allow them to remain without lint and other necessaries ? Would there be any want of nurses ? Is it not the fact that we have been obliged to send out every thing? Either the Turks despise, detest, and spit upon us for our pains, or they are too feeble and incompetent to do anything for us. (Hear.) The people of this country have been misled on this subject. The noble lord was, no doubt, speaking his honest convictions when he made the statement he did about the great improvement of Turkey; but if so the ignorance of one in his high position has had a sinister effect on the public opinion of England ; for it feeling in this country that the Tuarske no were self government, and that the was the capable prevailingof Mahomedan population were capable of being re stored to independence, and that if we fought their battles against the external enemy, they would be able to constitute a strong state, and carry on the functions of a great empire. This is now the impression in this country, but a greater delusion never existed. (Hear, hear.) All t r avellers, from Lamartine to th e mos t rec ent, were unani mous in their testimony as to the decay and utter help lessness of the Turks. This, then, is the great difficulty you have to contend with, and it is far better that you should address yourselves to remedy it than that you should waste the precious lives and treasure of the country in the destruction of Sebastopol, which will not serve you in the least, and which will be built up again iu ten years time. Besides, if you make up your minds to take Russia into a partnership with you in the treaty, if you contem plate a quintuple alliance, Russia forming one of the parties to it, what greater folly can there be than to go on fighting with that power which is, after all, the next neighbour of Turkey. (Hear.) I would rather leave this question to be settled by the chances'of peace than of war. As ani llustration of what may be done by peace, I will quote one example. We engaged in war with Ame rica, in 1812, about the right of search and other questions relative to the rights of neutrals. After being unable to settle the question in that way, we made a peace, and a treaty was concluded, in which there was no allusion made to the subject matter of the dispute at all. (Hoar, hear, and a laugh.) The question of the right of search or the rights of neutrals was never touched in the treaty. Peace, however, was made, which has lasted now forty years. What was the effect of this peace? In the meantime America has grown stronger, and we perhaps have grown wiser—though I am not so sure of that. (Laughter.) Well, we go to war now with a European power, and we voluntarily abandon those very belligerent rights which led to the war of 1812. (Hear, hear.) Peace solved the difficulty, which perhaps never would have been solved if they had been at war to this hour. (Hear, hear.) Apply this illustration to the case of Turkey. • Suppose you agree to a peace, it is difficult to say what may happen to dis embarrass you from .the difficulty. Your difficulty with Russia has very much of a personal difficulty. Tha Em- pc‘ror *.of - Russia no oirmia sLy of ,, eunti energy — a man of indomitable will, which b.' ivory man Iris a limit, and his successor may have diff?- rent views. It is because you do not give sufficient credit e was not able to control. We l l , but t he W e of to the course of events that you involve the country in long and ruinous wars in order to solve the difficulty. (Hoar, hear.) Internal koublos may arise in Russia her self, or perhaps during the peace you mar succeed in set ting up a more stable government and power in Turkey than the present. If you enter into a quintuple alliance you will have Prussia and Austria in conjunction with Franco and England, taking care that the terms of the agreement are carried out fairly. These aro events that may happen, and why not take the chance of them for the accomplishment of the object about which you are engaged in. war ? Your honour is not in volved in the destruction of Sebastopol, but in the withdrawal of the Russians from the Principalities, and that has been effected ; you would not therefore sacrifice honour by now making peace. I believe that all parties have had such a lesson from the • war that they are not likely to rush hastily into it again. (Hear.) I believe Russia now thinks that the courage and self-reliance of a free people are more formidable than she calculated upon —(hear, hear)—and that her semi-civilised population would Snot be anxious to meet the energetic people of Western Europe again. (Hear, hoar.) On the other hand we have had some proof that it is no easy matter to carry on war on the enemy's territory at a distance of 3,000 miles from home. (Hear.) I believe that all parties and Governments want to get out of the war. The great difficulty is that a spirit has been raised and expectations held out by the unstatesmanlike course pursued by some members of the Government, and especially by the noble lord the member for the City of London, and the noble lord the member for Tiverton, which it may be difficult to satisfy or to allay. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentle man the Secretary at War said that if Sebastopol was not taken in the first campaign it would not be taken at all. Are yen going to stake all upon one throw of the dice ? And if yen do not take Sebastopol in the first campaign, are you going to give it up? I don't think the people of England calculated on this. There stands little between you and peace on th e t erms men ti one d. T a ke connsel from the hon. memb er f or Aylesbury, who to ld you th a t R uss i a . would soon have 200,000 men in the Crimea. Ido not al ways agree with the hon. gentleman in his opinions, but I am always disposed to listen to his facts. He tells you the war is only beginning. Now, therefore, is the time to accept moderate terms of peace. You may succeed. D o not suppos e th at I wish to throw any discouragement in the way of F ra n ce and England, f or I see no possible limit to th e i r power if they des i re t o exerc ise it in the duel which i s go i ng on in the Crimea. ( Hear, hear, hear.) But a gain I revert t o th e q uestion, what are you to get to compensate you for the sa %rifle° of life and treasur e? (Hear, bear, hear.) The hon. member for Aylesbury tells you that next year Russia will . overrun th e Turkish provinces of Asia Minor. That will o s say a word be an indemnification to her for the fall of Sebastop ol. The Turki s h army, he has t o ld y en , will melt away in the next campai gn w h en t h e R us sians appear. Where, then, will be th e a d vantaee in carr yi n g on the war ? Before I sit down I in the Crim ea . I have h ere a letter from a friend of mine i nthe Crimea,nl beg .to dt ed the 2l n D t a h e e ern condition ber. H o f Ho s i y o s u — r , army The people of E ng l an d w i ll s h u dder when they read of what the army has su ff ere d . (Hear.) And then they will hardly know one half. I canno t imagine that either pen or pencil can depictu re it i n it s f r ightful reality. (Hear.) The line are greater su ff erers th an the artillery—though there is not much to ch oose b e t ween them. On a stormy wet night, when the t en t s were blown down, the sick, the wounded, t of o aad the dying huddled together in a frightful mass for warmth and shelter." (Hear, hear.) What a frightful picture of the condition of our army ! I have heard rumours that accounts have come of 100 men perishing at night in the trenches. (Hear') We have heard and know that they have worked up to their knees in mud for twelve hours a day, and have returned to no fire, or shelter when they left. (Hear, hear.) If you could consult these brave men, and ask them what their wishes are, I believe they would answer that their first and pre-eminent wish was to do their duty, and to accomplish their mission. (Cheers.) They would tell you that they were sent to capture Sebas topol, and their first duty was to take it or to perish in the attempt. (Cheers.) But if you were to consult the hearts of these men, and wished to know what the strong and anxious hopes of these men have been, even in the midst of the bl o ody struggles of Alma and Inkerman, I believe it is that the battles in which they have been en gaged may have the effect of restoring them again to their hearths and homes. (Hear, hear.) They are, at all events, entitled to the sympathy and consideration of the house an .t the country. (Hear, hear.) You must admit,. I am sure, whatever the result of the siege be, that it will involve an immense sacrifice of precious lives; and, unless yott can show that the object you have to accomplish in contending for the mastery cannot other wise bo obtained, then I say that you ought to encourage Government to look with favour on any propositions for peace which come from the enemy, and oven if you make a mistake in accepting peace, you will at least have the consolation of knowing that you have erred on the side of humanity. (Cheers.) Mr. CORRY had no intention of entering into a general discussion on the policy of the war, but would confine himself to the bill, which was more particularly the sub ject of the debate. He had voted against the measure from a conviction that it was mos; objection a bl e , not so much on constitutional as on moral groun d s. It' would have a very bad moral effect both at home and abroad. He never recollected a measure that was so unpopular with all classes, and with all political persuasions. He was convinced that if members had voted on Tuesday in accord ance with their convictions, and without regard to the threats held out, the Government would have been left in a minority. He did not mean to say that the house ought never to consent to 'an unpopular measure, for it was some times their duty to stem the tide of popular prejudice. He had held office in the navy department with his right hon, frienci the Secretary for War, and he knew from ex want of confidence to declare that they thought the Go- London, or other places in the country, the whole people vernment unfit . to carry on the war, because they were of England would rise up as one man against them. Russian in thnr sympathies ; or, if they thought them a Sir J. FITZGERALD intimated that, for the reasons responsible body, why . deny them the power which they he had stated on a former evening, he should give hi s sup were required to exercise, and for which power they meant port to the bill. to hold thorn responsible? He said he was not a Censer- Lord J. RUSSELL, who rose in obedience to loud calls vative, although, from want of other arrangements, he was obliged t o s it ou th a t s ide of the house. (Loud laughter.) from his side of the house, said — Mr. Speaker, I can It seemed to him a strange argument against the bill to I har d l y t hink it necessar y to enter again into the argu cell the men me rcena ries, and yet to encourage the increase m eats which have be en ur g ed in favour of this bill ; for of bounty, as though a pound made a patriot. (Hear.) ' while I have no doubt the gentlemen who have spoken to- But the lion. member for the West Riding said that we had i night are thoroughly persuaded of the soundness of their no interest to fight for in this war, and asked why we should send eut - throats—condottieri to cut the throats of objections, it appears to me, after hearing their speeches, the people of Europe ? He (Mr. O'Brien) said that his ob- that these speeches amount to nothing more than a repug ject was not to cut the throats of all Europe—(laughter)— nance to, and a N d o ec w la , ration against, the employment of but his object was to save the throats of our men in the , foreign t Crimea by this measure, seeing that hadnot timely I confess at once that if we had w e a 250,090 British troops, I should think that number quite supply of trained men. (Hear, hear.) Mr. COWAN said the position of the house on this ques tion sufficient to carry on the war at the commencement, and. that it is quite unnecessary to resort to the assistance of tion reminded him of a scene in which he had mingled very rec ently at a fire, which threatened to de s t ro y a poor ma n's foreign troops. But when I state the position in which property. The first engine, though it was public property, ,we are in, lam met with two different answers. The first useful, was in bad condition , but all labo ured to make it s• that e i the hon. member who moved the rejection of member b the help of another egine beging to thc hon. himself, the fire was got under. lon But only s „ td ,,,„ the bill. After having stated all the objections t o •th e th e y t ee d wr angled ever the engines, instead of employin g . ' emp l o yment of foreigners, and alluded to what I /noes them, then the prorerty must have been destroyed. And : t . ue l with regard to the number of recruits, and the on such was their poeition that night with reference to the ;tarol') ' ' \var. It was his opinion that in resistieg this bill the 01)-and of those recruits, he seys "How can you h ;lee , -a position were a cting a part vete , unworthy of the galla n t I so imprudent as to inform `Nelle of Russia o f th e helms who were so valiantly fielding our battles in the 1 deficiency in our army ?" sir, if the house had been Crimea. It was to be regretted that - there were no tettrterY 1 readily disposed to place the powers sought by this bill is ofticers of experience iu the house to testify to the necessity 1 the bands of the Government, I would not hems been of the measure. forced to s t a t e th e ciremnstences Idi I. (Ministerial Mr. A. SMITII said that the house was o f one accord in 1 cheers) I tbi l c 1 unfair—after urging every desiring that this war should be carried on with vigour and 1 (o,ll)ijenei,t,inonagt::intshtne.iltuill-tligiVilt"eleurdcevouring to rouse popular determination, but he could not think that object would be attained by the adoption of such a bib as the present. reason in its favour, " s l a lt)l \ ' C n you be so imprudent as to when plain facts are stated as a True, We were engaged with a Power which had gigantic tell the truth ?" me hon. a learned gentleman who resources at its command, but be was not on that account spoke last but one to be lees confident of the result ; for he believed that su periority of numbers was more than counterbalanced I: tr i o n ots, L i t e u sa s id ' " perish." canno t Tnat, • again, is a somewhat If gave‘4'`' anda'' s 'g v o e r on of a wi v t e h r o y nt di f ff or e e r i e g n tt extra by the determined spirit of a free.and independent people. ordinary answer—and I confess I cannot agree with the Nor did he think that any vassal army could long maintain hon. and learned member. (Laughter.) I say it is objec the struggle against such gallant men as won the heights tionable, no doubt, to be forced to ask for the aid of fo of Alma, and gained the glorious victory of Inkerman. reign troops in addition to our 150,000 Believing that it would be little less than an insult to send same time, Ido not wish to see England perish. to the reinforcement of such soldiers the hireling troops of F o r my part, Iready to avail myself am e t e r t s h . e ) of every means I the petty German sovereignties he should not hesitate to vote against the bill. can for the successful prosecution of the w ar . - (Hear.) I am not ashamed to own I wish the war were terminated Mr. L&ING said he saw no reason against the employ- with success to ourselves. (Hear, hear.) It am_ared ment of foreign troops. Was it not true that the sympa- to me that it was advisable for the Government re" to ore thies of the German people were all along with the Western pose this mea sure to the house ; but, says the hoe. -and Powers in this war? The fact had been admitted by the learned gentleman, " this is a most unconstitutional Russian party in Prussia ; for they said, if the heads were practice, and ought not now to be adopted." Now, counted, the majority would be in favour of the war. He it seems to me that there never was a case in which could not bring himself to vote against the measure, feeling it was more legitim ate for the Ministers to say, "If we as he did strongly in favour of it. cannot have these powers which we consider necessary f or Mr. W. E-DITNCOMBE had no confidence that the the successful prosecution of the war, let those conduct the Government would carry on this war vigorously. What war who think they can do so without the aid of any was the course which they had hitherto pursued ? Why, foreign force." It is asserted that in making such a de instead of making the preparations which were necessary claration we are acting a most unworthy part; but what for the war, they had always been " toe late" in their ope. would be said of us if we attempted to carry on hate rations. The result had been most unsatisfactory, and they without the powers we now require, and tailed, and on had nothing to show the country but an ill•definetl treaty being afterwards reproached, we turned round and ob with Austria, which had been laid upon the table a few served , "Itis no wonder we did not bring the war to a nights ago. He asked the Government to explain to Par. successful issue because you refused us those powers." liament why it was that they were always the last i n . (Hear, hear.) It appears to me that the arguments on stead of being the first in commencing operations—why this subject have been very nearly exhausted, and that the they had not been energetic and active from the first? The repugnance of hon. gentlemen opposite to the bill is not to right hon. baronet the member for Droitwich had the be overcome. I give them all credit for sincerity of feel other evening clearlypointedout objections against the Aus- ing that repugnance, but Ido think, in point of argument, trian occupation of the Danubian Principalities. That oc- considering the position of our troops, and taking into ac count what the Secretary at War has stated, and what I Pacha, and the result had been that the army of General have been forced to disclose, that there are really no good rounds against the employment of these foreign troops. Dannenberg had been allowed to march to the Crimea. If g the Government had any influence with the Austrian Go- But the inconsistency of those who argued against the bill vernment, th e y s h ou ld h ave ex ercised itlong ago, andhave is not to be slighted. They say, "These men you intend proceeded to carry their policy into effect. And again, why to take into your service are mercenari from mercenaryes—they will be did they not make represent a ti o ns to the Turkish Govern- induced to enter your employment . mo ment ?It was quite evident that the expedition to the Lives—only think of engaging men to fight in your cause Crimea had been begun and carried on without adequate for a consideration." Then, they add, " Rely on the pa means. If the Government had shown more energy and triotism of the people." Now, we say, doing full credit determination, the army in the East would have re- to the enthusiasm of the people, that we cannot find a mufti ceived stronger reinforcements, and in less time. Now, dent number of properly qualified recruits. (Hear, hear.) what was the measure introduced into that house ? Why, It is next said—" Gi v e recruits a larger bounty than is now one which would enable the Government to hire foreign paid." Although they obje ct to em p loying foreign troops mercenaries—a measure which was most distasteful to the for a consideration, they say—" In entering upon a great people, and which was quite unnecessary in itself. He be- struggle like this, for God's sake don't scruple about in lieved the feelings and spirit of the country pressed forward creasing the bounty by 30s. or 405." (Hear, hear.) Well as one man to assist in the war. This measure was hostile sir, I sa y , g i ving every credit for the conscientious an to the feelings of the people, and was opposed to their pure nature of the opposition which has been offered, I interests, and to the power which this nation possessed. cannot see the necessity of entering farther into this argu (Hear, hear.) ment. But there is a question which has been raised by Mr. V. SCULLY said the question before the house was the hon. member for the West Riding, into which Ido the third reading of the Foreign Enlistment Bill—whether not wish to enter at length, but I think it advisable, as they would give her Majesty power to enlist foreign the question has b th e e en started by him, to give some ex soldiers to assist her own soldiers in the field of b a tt le ? planation before debate is closed. The hon. gentle man said he would not go into the origin of the war, and He should vote for the measure on two grou n d s—first, yet his whole argument was founded on a supposed origin numbersbecause the men wore required to oppose the large numbers of the war, which is not the true origin. He supposed of men who could be brought into the field by the Emperor that my noble friend the Secretary of State for the Home of Russia, who, it should be remembered, did not consult a body of men like the House of Commons upon the subject Department and I were disposed to enter into a war of of the war, but who, being the Executive himself, issued Propagandism ; he then made a very just and true reflection on the evil of entering upon a war for mere what orders he thought proper. Another reason why he should vote for the bill was, that, were he the Executive m otives of chivalry, and said we had en g a g ed in the himself, he should most certainly not hesitate as lo n g ache Pan res ent struggle of Christianism against barb arism without any call upon us to do so. But this w ar ori g inated in had a shilling in his pocket, to procure the assistance of all attempt at aggrandisement by Russia. The attem p ted ag the foreigners he could get ; then why should he refu se to the Government that which he should do were he in liable by Russia began in a most unjust and unjusti power. The hon. and learned gentleman then referred to a fiable aggression, and it would have ended, if not resisted, in the possession, by Russia , of Co nstantino p le, and in a letter which he had himself addressed about six weeks ag o to the Chief Secretary for Ireland respectinn , the conduct P reponderance, therefore, on her part, which would have of the Earl of Bandon, theLord-Lieutenant of Cork county, been dangerous to the state of Europe. If that was the and the sectarian feeling he had shown in officering the legitimate cause of the war, surely it was justifiable to say militia with Tories and Protestants, whilst the groat bulk that if our enemy were successful barbarism would tri ef the men were Catholics. Ho would not read to the umph ; and, on the contrary, that if our enemy were do house the answer he had received to that letter. (Cries of feated, civilisation would have the victory. (Hear.) This " Oh," and " Read, read.") No, ho Would not read it, for is no mere abstract theoretical defence of civilisation. The two reasons —ono of which would probably satisfy those war itself was not a thing so unforeseen. And is it a war hon. members who called upon him to do so, namely, that which is so entirely without a motive ? So far from it, he had not received any answer. (Laughter.) The other some 25 years ago the Emperor Napoleon predicted that rcaiou was, that the house would excuse him from reading the next gr eat war which would take place in Europe a private document. (ll.enewed laughter.) After some would have its beginuing in an attempt by the Emperor of further rematke, the hon. and learned gentleman caul be Russia to posecss himself of the Turkish empire, and he would give hie vote in favour of the third red ling of the said if anything could unite the two nations of England bid. and France it would be the cause of resisting such an ag gression as t'...at. Put there is one circumstance, and a most rein3rlzable circumstance, with regard to which Na ' pole°, has proved himself to be in error. It was supposed by the E iiperer Napoleon that when Russia would make that attempt, anti England and France would join to op pose her, that Austria, also having an c3e upon the spolia tion of Turkey, would be a confederate with Russia, and, by joining her army with her, would battle any resistance that coul.l be hr ug'it against them. But, to the honour of Auitik, this is not the case. The Emperor of Aust., is. hes been no patty to this aggression ; on the contrary, be hes had the wisdom to tee that, whatever share of the spoil he could get, his own empire would become so en feebles! by the success of Russia, that it could not exist many years as an independent kingdom. And, sir, whet was the proposition made to England-not fur the parti lieu of Turkey, but supposing she should fall to pieces? It was that the Danubian provinces should be put under the sole protectorate of Russia—that England should have a certain share of the spoil (Candice, I think)—that there should be extension or existence of tree institutions in the provinces inhabited by Christians—and that the kingdom of Greece should not be increased. It was, in fact, for an increase of Russian power with a careful bargain that there should be no increase of those free institutions—civil pro gress and education, which were to be exreetedfrom the pro fessions of the Sultan. We declined this attempt to spoliate the territory of the Sultan, and I stated what were the reasons which induced the Government to come to that decision.- I even went on to flatter the Emperor of Ruse sia, and to praise what I thought to be the wise, prudent, and judicious policy wuich had influenced him for many years past. But now war has taken place, and we are asked what are the terms upon which we will treat for peace. The lion. gentleman the member for the West. Riding says that, as the Principalities are not occupied by Russia, and that as the demands made on the Sultan have been granted, we have nothing more to do than to sign a treaty of peace. But, sir, I say that, having gone to a large expenditure of blood and treasure to defend the in dependence of Turkey, I think it would be most unworthy to place things iu the same state as they wore in two years ago, and thus to leave the Emperor of Russia in possession of all the means of subduing Turkey, which he had two years ago, without the existence of any combination of strength against him. (Hear.) Well, having said thus much, let us go into the general nature of the terms upon which we think there may be a termination of the war, I quite agree with the lion, gentleman, who says, that if we can get an adequate security for peace, we ought not, for a mere vague and undefined object, continue the miseries of war. Tho Government have no wish, no de sire, to continue the war for any vague or undefined pur poses, or, as the Russian organs say, to dismember the Russian empire and to deprive her of a great part of her territory. I must say that the four bases appeal' to me to have been moderately worded. The first relates to the Principalities which have been invaded, and by which means, contrary to the treaty of Adrianople, the road to Constantinople has been opened to Russia. It is pro posed to place the Christian inhabitants of these Princi palities under the guarantee of the Five Great Powers of Europe, so that if Russia should, at any future time, make any aggression upon them, they would at OBCO receive the assistance of the four powers to repel it. Tide is one security, and Austria and Prussia have a greed to joie in it. The next basis is the opening of the navigation of the Danube, which has been closed by the unfair conduct of Russia, contrary to the provisions of the treaty of Vienna, and for the selfish interest of Russia. If any security can be given for this object it cannot fail to be for the advan tage of Europe. The third is one which I admit is of some difficulty, and it refers to the revision of the treaty of 1841, and the consideration of the words, " in the interest of the balance• of power." Now, the meaning of those words is obvious. As matters stood previous to the pre sent war, none of the European Powers could send their ships of war to t he Dardanelles without the permission o the Sultan e but the Emperor of Russia having a great harbour and fortress, in the Black Sea, in which there are 18 or 20 sail o f the line, mi g ht at any time avail aim df 000 f or 40, a favourable wind, and come down with 30, troops, occupy the Bosphorus, and destroy C "lonstantinople o n seen, lesv ewe Sebasto pol,t hink iwtfwthohuilds guns. Now, unsafe New p a o fte sit r io w n h i a n t for the independence of Turkey, it would be an act o f and I think, having gone to war to obtain security which to t e the grossest folly if we were to consent to a treaty of peace, if Russia, having, in si x months afhe treaty was a few days destroy ed the independence w i signed, picked a fresh c ause of quarrel withter the Turkey, an d in we are now seeking to secure. The fourth condition is also one of some difficulty, and the hon. gentleman the member for the West Riding has referred to it at some length. He says, and says with truth, that Turkey has been misgoverned, count of the desert na ture of the count r y . But, sir, I quite agree with the state and that every traveller gives an ac ment made by the noble lord, the Secretary for de Some Department, that Turkey has made great progress of late years. But how has this change been effected ? It is to be traced to the change which has t a kenplace in th e habits of the Christian subjects of the Porte— . Mr. COBI)EN—I spoke o f th e T ur ks. stians form a great of the Lord J. ItUSSEL L— A n d I am speaking of Turkey. The populaticT of Turkey, and Chri my argument i s , tha p t art the Christian Powers, and Eng land more e sp ec i a ll y, h ave i m pressed upon the Porte the advantages e l a sub j e cts , The Sultan has ado p ted in practice those just just administrat ion of the laws among his ideas, and the consequence is, that while there are many Turks who have been in England and France, and who know the manners of these countries, the greater part of the Turkish population has remained in ignorance ; while the Christian subjects, who, instead of being treated as formerly w ith i n discriminate injustice and oppression, have made greet social progress, and enjoy, as Lord Car lisle many religious and civil privileges formerly de nied Then, what I look to is, that this progress states, tothe r. will go on, and that the Sultan will give such assurances to the Christian Powers of Europe that we shall see before long an equality among the subjects of the Porte, a nd that person s of one religion shall enjoy equal privileges with those of another. (Hear, hear.) This will restore the prosperity of the country, which will then exist with a general diffusion of thought fad education, rhich, WO k 1194 , Mr. I. BUTT—The proposal of the Government to have 10,00'i foreign troops in this country inc,lnt that they worn to have 31,000 or 49,000 of those tr-ops in the service of the Qucen abroad. Now, to that scheme he entortainel objections-which reflectioe Irs,l rendorol of an insuperable character. Nor did he think the argument that it was unconstitutional to bring foreign troops into this country haPl been sufficiently answered. The constitutional prin ciple was, that the Crown could not bring foreign troops into this country without the consent of Parliament. Ilut if the commit of Parliament was a mero matter of form, the constitution was violated. He c , mtended that neither Padiament nor the country had been fairly or duly con stilted, and it was almost NV i tinnt precedent, if not entirely so, that a measure of such vast importance should neither be adverted to in the Queen's Speech, nor be the subject of a message from the Crown; and this, too, whilst the noble lord the President of the Council was abundantly candid in revealing to the whole world the plan of the Go vet nment regarding the attack upon Sebastopol. How could this measure remedy the condition of our troops at Balakla,va ? Was it any proof of the wisdom, vi&our, or capacity of the Government that they had left ou'r brave troops ill provided -- without tents—without warm cloth ing —nay, ho feared without even the necessary supply of food ? (Hoar, hear.) Was that house justified in placing confidence in a Government which had suffered such things to occur—was it upon the ipse dixit of a member of that Government to pass without due deliberation so important and so distasteful a measure as this - was it to acquiesce at once in the request of an Administration whose war depart ment had been so scandalously mismanaged ? Those foreign hirelings could not be of any use to remedy the present un fortunate condition of our troops in the Crimea. Those troops would maintain their ground, notwithstanding the disadvantageous position in which our own Government had placed them, until help was obtained from a less questionable source. Was it not shameful that, with the resources of England at the disposal of the Government — our being within 16 days' sail of the Crimea—with a peo ple enthusiastic in carrying on the war with vigour, and ready to make any sacrifice—with the seas freed from the presence of an enemy, so that any craft might without fear navigate those waters—with the immense maritime force of this nation—that our army, who deserved so well of us, should be almost deprived of the common necessaries of life ? (Hoar.) The enthusiasm of the nation was almost unexampled. The mechanic and the labourer contribute t their utmost mite towards the relief of those who were wounded, or to the assistance of the widows of those who died in the service of their country. Ladies forgot the elegances of polished life to act the part of common nurses to the sick or wounded soldier—(hear)—and yet with all these resources, with all this aid, with all this enthusiasm, the Government wished to force this bill for obtaining the aid of foreign hirelings through Parliament. The hon. and learned gentleman then cautioned the Government, lest the sympathies of those foreign troops might be more German than English when in•our service, and so, in the change of circumstances, force us to disgraceful and disastrous com promise with the enemy. Did they think they would not be in the power of Austria if she could by intrigue or in fluence control those German States, whose men we should have taken ? He thought Ministers had made ono great mistake in trusting Austria ; and he thought they made a great mistake when they allowed Austria to occupy the principalities ; but they should take care that they were not now giving Austria the key of the British camp. By the course Ministers were now adopting they wero de moralisine. war. There was a personal risk and sacri fice which ° men made to support a cause which they thought right; but to carry on war as now proposed by Ministers aggravated all the evils which war carried with it. Did they think their German Legion would be popular in England ? He believed they would not— that they would be odious to the people, and, therefore, for the sake of maintaining amity wi th the German States he would now repudiate this measure of Ministers ;_ and he wished now, at the last moment , they would withdraw it, and advise the Sovereign to trust in the fidelity of her own subjects ; for he believed with the poet that— " Naught can make her rue, If England to herself be true." They had now unexampled enthusiasm about this war. Would they have it if this measure was passed? There never was a time when this nation should be more united than now • and he hoped the time was co ming when they would forget' all distinctions of English, Irish, or Scotch, andthey should be all one really united nation. Why should Mi nisters throw down thi s a pple of discord among them? By an unconstitutional threatof resignation they were forcing this measure upon the house—and what did that mean ? That they would abandon the vessel of the State among the breakers upon which they had steered her. He never gave a vote with a clearer conscience, or one less influenced by anything except the honour and interest of this country than the vote he should give against the passing of this odious measure. (Hear.) Mr. MICHELL should wish to know what this war was carried on for. He should wish this house to be ventilated upon that subject. (Hear, and a laugh.) It would be in the recollection of the house that it was stated by the noble lord the President of the Council and others that the passing of the Pruth would be regarded as .n a catus bclli; but now the Russians h ad repassed the . anu e t . This was a war of religion. (Laughter.) It was a war, no between Turks and Russians, but ono between RomanisT and Protestantism. (Loud laughter.) He would state his reason for entertaining that opinion—every Cathoontinuelic mem b e r voted with the Min istr y upon the bill. (Cd laughter.) The cause of the excitement which had arisen in Ireland on this question was the fact of its being known that the Emperor of Russia had whipped tome nuns. M e _ unwed laughter.) The present quarrel took its origin from a difference between the Latin Church and the Holy Places. (Cries of Question and oh, oh.) There could be no doubt that the struggle now going on was one in which the Greek Church was opposed to the Roman Catholic Church. Had hon. members seen the letter of the Secretary of War to Miss Nightingale? (Laughter.) All the persons who had gone out with that lady were Roman Catholics. (Divide, divide, and Question.) The question was, whether we were to have foreign legions in this country ? He believed if we had bothei of foreign itoldi ere paredieg the streets of ! L tep tor Lty Jay' pity Go uld are a ie tic ght hat her ies, 'of try un-