The Sun. — London, England, 1833-02-12 00:00:00

~, y these two wart. They were different in their effects— different in their causer—required different remedies, and yet they were too frequently confounded. He begged to assure the Hon. Member for Knaresborough (Mr. Rich ards) that he was mistaken in the story which be related to the House a few evenings back. He had made strict inquiries, and be found that instead of the wages of the labourers being limited to- 3s. a week, he assured him that in many remote counties the wages did not ex• teed 2s. per week. Agricultural agitation existed quite independently of politics. What were the political dis turbances in Ireland which required these new powers ? He was perfectly ready to admit the existence of numerous predial crimes there ; but those were totally ignorant of the real state of Ireland, and received the wholesale assertions of his Majesty's Ministers with much too great facility,who con founded those crimes with offences of another description. An Hon. Member had asserted, that he (Mr. O'Connell) had declared that disturbances bad been increasing in Ire land ever since the present Ministers came into office. He bad never said any such thing. What he had said was, that they had increased since the speech made by the King at the close of the last Parliament, in which vigorous measures were alluded to, and since the strong measures which had been adopted with respect to tithes. But what was the present state of Ireland with regard to disturb.. ances ? There were no disturbances in the county of Cork. The two last assizes for the county of Cork had been maiden assizes. There had been five tithe meetings in that county, and not a single assault had been commit ted at any of them. By a letter which he had received that morning, he understood that there were no disturb ances whatever in that county, and that not one Whitebov was out in it. Yet the number of inhabitants in that county exceeded seven hundred thousand. In the county of Kerry, in which there were two hundred and fifty or two hundred and sixty thous a nd inhabitants, it was eight months since the last assizes, and there were only, four pri soners in the gaol of that county. In Limerick there were only eleven prisoners in gaol. The county of Clans was quiet ; the county of Galway was quiet ; the county of Sligo was quiet ; hut it was said that the county of Mayo was disturbed, and it was because the county of Mayo was disturbed that Government asked 'for these additional' powers.—(Hear, hear, hear.) It was impossible to b ok batik at what had taken place in the county of M myo without the utmost indignation. At four meetings which had taken place in that county, the people bad been slaughtered by the police. The inhabitants were prevented from availing themselves of the seawreck, which was claimed by the Marquis of Sligo. And how was the validity of the claim tried? By tae agents of the claimant. By Magistrates, who decided the point on the Wilful Trespass Act. During the trial one of the Jury died, but the trial proceeded nevertheless. It had been asserted that Trial by Jury was a mockery in Ireland-- that it failed ef its just operation. Had it ever failed when the poor were prosecuted? Oh no ! He spoke it in the hearing of the Member for the county of Mayo, who could contradict him if the fact were nut so. His Majesty's Governtnent might, undoubtedly, overpower the insurgents; they might send for German troops for that purpose (for, amone the reports which had been gene rated in ignorance of the real extent to which his Majes ty's Government intended to go, was the rumour that they meant to send for German troops) ; but if they did not send a very powerful force, they would do well not to intrust the Magistrates in that, or in any other county in Ireland, with powers unknown to the constitutional law of the land. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman pro ceeded to read a letter from a Magistrate in that part of Ireland in which the writer asserted, that while such num• bets of pour people were out of employment, it was im possible to expect the return of tranquillity.—(Hear.) All parties agreed as to the necessity of tenting an end to the ex isting disturbances ; the only difference was as to the means . These were two questions which ought to be well consi dered. First : if there was any necessity for fiat titer powers? Secondly : What would be the effect of further powers, if they were given ? To be able satisfactorily to answer those questions, the present state of the law should he inquired into. By the law, as it at present stood, there was not a single crime which a Whitehoy insurgent could possibly commit, for which he might not be pu nished. Whether he raised his hand against a dwelling house, opened a door, or solicited at ms in aid of the dis turbances, he was equally amenable to the law. Why, then, did the Right Hon. Gentleman ark for more than the law, which was already adequate to the object ? Why, the system of law which already existed was one of such enegeorated severity, that the Right Hon. Gentleman himself had brought in a Bill to mitigate it. And yet that law, which was so severe that the Right Hon. Gen rietnan brought in a Bill to mitigate it„ he now proposed ;14 , render more vigorous ! If the law were made in Irelaterl as rigorous as that Right Hon. Gentleman no doubt wished it to he, he (Mr. O'Connell) would rather live in France under Robespierre. And he begged, by-the-bye, to remind the Right Hon. Gentleman and others, that the reign of Robespierre was very short, with all its rigour. ,neeverting to the trials in the county of Clare, the Hon. nummo/4 Learned Gentleman asked if any defects had been nnhilen n sd during those trials in the jurisdiction—any Actilry in obtaining witnesses —mu successful inti enidatian practised on juries ? Nothing of the kind. Every one of the guilty persons was brought to justice. Were the juries intimidated? The result showed that that was not the case. Were the witnesses intimidated ? The ini e ermer was walking about every day untouched.. Eleven pensons were executed, and a greater number transported : and the county became, and was at the pre ssent moment, perfectly quiet. Jr. land had fought the battle of his Majemety'e Government in the contest for Reberm : the great majority of tine Members front that eatin:ry dividtd with his Majesty's Government on every disputed point. And what was Ireland now to get in re turn ? That the British Constitution was to be trampled under foot for the purpose of oppressing the Irish people. To the Queen's County, when the Special Commission was bent, there had been only a single acquittal. No witness, no Juror had had been intimidated, In the county of Kilkenny, every one of the Whiteftet who had been brought to trial was convicted. No Juror, no witness load been intimidated or injured. It was true that ten or eleven policemen had been killed at Cirrickslough, and that there had t ern no convintien. But why? He (Mr. O'Connell) had defended the first man tried. There was 190 justification of the acts. He (Mr. O'Connell) admit ted that they had been batbarous murders. The only question was, whether the man on trial was one of the murderers? He was identified .by three or four of the policeman who were engaged in the battle, but who had never seen him before. In their evidence they contradicted one another in a manner which showed that they were in accurate, if not false witnesses. On the prisoner's side, there were two witnesses to prove that be was not pre sent. Oae of them e belonging to a better class, proved that elle prisoner was thatching his house at the very time as was charged with being in the affray. The conse etannen was that the man was acquitted. Was that any Arrporai 4or the assertion that the Trial by Jury in Ireland wa g $ tancintry ? And how was that Jury composed? Ike foreman was an outrageous partisan, whom he (Mr. O'Connell) challenged for favour. Before seven of the Jury were sworn, the whole of the prisoner's challenges were run aut. The rest of the Jury, therefore, were actu4lly nominated by the Crown ; and yet that, Jury ac quitted the prisoner. The Jury bad not been influenced, by intimidation : they had disbelieved the evidence for the' prosecution. The Right Hon. Gentleman wished for more powers, that he might stelh, a dictator, through the land. If that House gave the Right Hon. Gentleman more powers, they would give Ireland another reason to complain. So far were Government from wanting juries in Ireland, that, as he had shown, they were able to pack Juries. But they wanted witnesses. Yes, he believed them. It was testimony that they wanted, and they cared not how they procured it. Why not destroy the Irish by wholesale? Why not surround them in a valley, and render that valley another Glenco? Why not treat them as some years ago they treated a hundred and twenty thousand of their eountrymen, whom they got together for expatriation? Eighty thousand of whom they shipped to the West Indies. of which eighty thousand only sixty thousand reached tine Weat Indies ; sod pf which sixty thousand, in two yeare, only twO hisedred end fifty sum vived. And yet be was convinced that the Right Hon. Baronet near him was a much better Minister for Ireland than the present Right Hon. Chief 6erantary. The Right Hon. Baronet was a philosophical Stateseleau—be did net confound things which were a cene fury distiune--he would hesitate to recommend unconatia tutional measures. Adverting to the murder of a Pro testant clergyman, the Rev. Mr. Ferguson, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman observed, that Mr. Ferguson had net been at war with the Catholic peasantry ; on the continua Ise bad carried the tithe compueition into effect in Iris own parish by their aid. After detailing the circumstances of this case, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman asked the Right Hon. Chief Secretary if he said that this was a Whiteboy-murder ? It was nothing of the kind. It was a robbery-murder. If the House gave greater poweri to the Irish Government, they would imbue th e enem i e i of that Government with deeper hatred, they would dispose many of their friends to go along with them. The attempt to confound political with agricultural agitation showed him what it was that was wanted. He could not but admire the bonhomie of the Noble Lord, who spoke of .the good intentions of hie Majesty's Government. Din the Noble Lord recollect the Spanish proverb, which' saia that " Hell was paved with good intentions ?" Had there sbeet a petition presented from Ireland, complaining of distkess or of wrongs, that the Noble Lord (Althorp) did not find some miserable excuse for its not be ing 'printed ? It was said he wanted to dismember the empire, which be denied ; for- repeal could and ought to be effected without it. But then, again, they said A was impossible for Ireland to have a local Parliament. Now, there was nothing better established in philosophy, than that what once bad been might be again. The Irish Par liament vindicated its own character and dignity oftener than ever the Boroughmongers' Parliament had done. All the county Members, and Members for towns, were re turned by large constituencies, calumniated as that Parlia ment was. Who were they that calumniated it? The Whigs. Who was it, he would ask, who enacted the Penal Laws? The Whigs. Who enacted the Insurrec tion Act? The Whigs. Had not the venerable name of that great patriot, Grattan, been stigmatized in that very House, for having, in a moment of weakness, consented to join the Whigs in passing that shameful Act? He had been taunted about the repeal—that it was a new question, got up for a party or a personal purpose. He would vin dicate the history of it in a few words. When did it hegin ? On the Ist of January, 1801 ; and during all the discussion and all the agitation of the Catholic question, it had been continually brought forward. The question had often been asked, Won't you be satisfied with eman cipation? and he always replied, it would be valueless without a local Parliament. Then it was made a matter of reproach that he had never discussed it in that House, especially during the last year. The Right Hon. Member for Tamworth said the other night, " Why did you not come to me ? I would have assisted you to bring the question forward."—(Hear.) No doubt he would, and been very much obliged to him to have done so. Moreover, he doubted not he should have been much lauded by the Right Hon. Baronet and his friends, as fully perhaps as the gentleman in whose place he then stood.—(The Learned Gentleman alluded to Mr. Hunt.) He had ever looked upon repeal not as an end but a means—the means to good government.—(Hear.) When the Reform mea sures were brought forward, he had been promised a sufficient Bill for Ireland and a redress of grievances ; and on this, much against his own judgment, he consented that agitation should cease. Accordingly he used what influence he possessed with his countrymen—and hepossessed none which did not appeal to their good sense and better feelings—and agitation was given up. Scotland had a good Reform Bill extended to her; but what was vouchsafed to Ireland ? A miserable, insulting, paltry, de. grading measure—one that was dastardly and mean, and told the people in what ignominy and contempt they were held by their rulers. Well, he began to see that the old system was to be continued; but many men said, wait and see what the Reformed Parliament will do ; all will then be conciliation—all fair deal. ing—all justice. He said he did not believe it—he would not trust in such hopes. When he heard the speech from the Throne, he nearly lost his powers of intellect—but he was de termined not to be shaken or to be turned from his purpose. Not one of his forebodings—not one of his expectations—had been denied by that speech. If they called changing the form in which tithes were to be paid enough to satisfy the nation—if the Church was to be kept up in the same state, with the same staff', and the same emoluments—it was but a repetition of the miserable joke of " Joe Miller" about the Soldier and the Drummer. What did he care—what did it matter—whether they flogged high or flogged low, if they flogged the people of Ireland at all ?—(Cheers.) He had stated the grievances of Ireland and called for redress. Redress was denied, and the repeal of the Union was looked to. There were many men in Ireland—rational, thinking men—who had not hitherto joined in the cry, who, after reading this speech, would do so. Were the people of Ireland so degraded that they would attend to no reasoning—that argument must have no weight—but that they must be checked and put down by the witchcraft of unconsti tutional warfare ?—(Cheers.) The Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland taunted him with not discussing the question, and called on h.m to argue it. This was something like the man with a loaded gun in his hand humbly asking for charity, which, if refused, would be taken. The Honourable Secretary adds coercion to his address, and then called upon hint to discuss. Now he would tell them the motives for this Union. The Hon. Member here read a variety of extracts from pamphlets and speeches by Lord Chief Justice Bushe, Mr. Saurin, and Lord Plunket, "men of their own party," condemning the Union and the motives of its promoters, and then, " to prove he was not afraid to meet the anti-repealers on financial details," went over an elaborate figure statement, showing that since the Union Ireland had materially suffered in her trade, and that in regard to her pro portion of the National Debt she had been most unjustly treated.—(The Hon. Member read these figures in so very un connected a manner, and at times in so low a tone, that it would be impossible to give them with any chance of correct ness.) The English Parliament, in 1817, repealed the Act which defined Ireland's liability in regard to the National Debt, and thus mortgaged every inch of land in that country. They were strong and did it. Ohl they must rely on their gene rosity. Indeed, without meaning disrespect or disparagement, he never yet heard that they were not equally as sensitive in the pocket in that as in any other House. Well, but what did they ask ? All they required was liberty to argue. Were they to be coerced because they talked of their own affairs— because they sought for means to better their own condition and save that of other people from getting worse? Who, in Scotland, lowered the condition of her people by work ing almost for nothing ? The wretch flung from Ireland.— ( Hear, hear, hear.) Who filled the factories all over England, and reduced the already too low rate of wages ? The outcast of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) Who made the poor rates so burdensome ? The Irish ; not casually, but he con fessed it, designedly. Who brought such misery and ruin on the agricultural labourer? The forlorn Irishman coming even from the wilds of Connaught, a distance of five or six hundred miles, and slaving for that which an English labourer would turn from with disgust. This was extending, day after day, to town after town, as it were reproaching England with her injustice to Ireland. What gentleman would introduce a plan for getting rid of this growing curse ? There was no remedy but a repeal of the Union, or, as some persons thought, the enactment of poor laws.—(Cheers.) He rejoiced in those cheers. Let them but have poor laws, and the rich would be destroyed, and the poor have no prospect whatever. If they wanted a thorough disorganization of society—if they wanted a servile war to commence—throw poor laws into Ireland. But they might say the Irish poor laws should be an improved code ; to which he replied, " Gentlemen, before improving a system for us, improve your own."—(Hear, hear, hear, and laughter.) There were persons who thought him am bitious, and they must think so still. He had no ambition but the good of his country; and the best consolation he could have was to be found in the purity of his own motives and intentions. He saw a system of terror about to be attempted in Ireland, which would assuredly tend to its ruin. Ministers were resolved to prevent discussion in Ireland. How much more discussion would there be when this bad law was passed ?—(Loud cheers.) The Irish had no faith in their Government. What trust could they put in the head of a Go vernment—however high and chivalrous he might be and was as a soldier—who, in November, 1830, declared he would not issue a proclamation, and in January, 1831, actually issued it ? For his part, he could never trust such a person. But Ireland found no sympathy with English Ministers. Look at their con duct in the case of The Waterford Chronicle—not content with persecuting the proprietor, they actually grasp at and take the poor printer. Now he would give them a warning. Let them attend to what he said—for he meant it—and he would give them the advantage of a warning. If they assailed the press, there should be a run for gold. He gave them that notice. He denied that he had ever httherto recommended such a course—though the contrary had been asserted—but let them assail the press, and a run would commence on the Bank. Did Ministers wish to make Ireland fear them ? He appealed to English Reformers if they would sanction such a system ? There was many an exiled Irishman pining to see his early home—anxious to return to his beloved native land when better times and better days should dawn upon her—but hope of those days must not comfort him. Did Ministers think to repress discontent by these means ? They might punish—the might for a time alarm—but they could not overcome the people. Were they so safe at home that they could safely enter into this gratuitous folly ? Had they no distress—no starving manufacturers—no unemployed poor? There were, besides, other dangers. He warned the Govern ment, that there were in this town, almost within hearing, one hundred thousand Irishmen to whom the announcement of their determination to use measures of eoercion towards Ire land, would be most melancholy. There were 100,000 men— (No)—he did not embellish facts, he only stated them—(A laugh)—men to whom the announcement of such a determi nation on the part of the Government would at once convey the suggestion of the slaughter, of the murder of their fathers, their mothers, their brothers,o their sisters, their wives, and th sir children. He called on the Government to pause before they subjected the feelings of these men to such a painful in. diction. He knew that he had detained the House for a long time—(Hear) —he might, perhaps, do it again, it would be an other day of liberty for Ireland, He never expected to see national ingratitude so displayed as was that which made the Reformers of England become the enemies of the freedom of Ireland. . _ Mr. S. RICE should not attempt to go into the question of perscnal attacks—(Hear, hear)—but he should follow step by step the Hon. and Learned Gentleman in the statements which he had made upon the question of the Union itself. He thanked the Hon. and Learned Gentleman for those statements—he thanked him for thus at last coming forward and endeavouring to prove in the proper place, before the Legislature of the United Kingdom, that the Union of the two kingdoms had been productive of evil to Irelaud. In discussing this question with the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, he should not touch one point with reference to the interests of England, for on the part of England there had not been a suggestion of a wish for the repeal. It was, therefore, unnecessary to go into any argument to show how the interests of England were af. fected by the proposed repeal, and he should, consequently confine himself to the question as it related to Ireland. Before, however, he did this, he must say a few words in defence of his party, and of the Government. The Hon. and Learned Gentle man, in the course of his speech, had used the words Protestants and Roman Catholics, words which, as marks of distinction, he (Mr. S. Rice) hoped never to have heard again in that House, and for the use of which he had, on one occasion, called General Grosvenor to order, when the Gallant General had applied the words, Roman Catholic Member, to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman himself. With this single remark, he should proceed at once to the question of the conduct and cha.. racter of the Whig party.. Could _the Hon. and Learned Mem ber forget the character of the Whig party ? Who had been Members of that party ? Was not Mr. Molyneux one of the w.,~ 4Vhigs of Ireland ?—(Hear.) The Hon. and Learned Gentle man thought they were wrong in claiming Grattan as one of their number—their claim, however, was well founded, and to his name they might add those of many others. What was the conduct of Mr. Grattan ? Why he would at any time lend his support to the measures of his opponents, if he thought those measures would prove beneficial to Ireland ; and in examining them, in order to make up his mind, he would lay aside all considerations of the party of the men from whom they emanated. This fact was proved by an extract which he should read from a speech of Mr. Grattan's delivered in 1808 or 1809. He should read some few words from that speech, and then allow the gentlemen on the other side, who might have been led astray for the moment, by the bold assertion of the other side, to form their own judgment upon the man, who, by the admission of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, was one than whom a truer friend of political liberty, or a more steady defender of popular rights never existed. The words were these :—" Sooner than run the risk of losing the Constitution altogether, he would take upon himself his full share in common with his Majesty's Ministers "—these Mi nisters were his political opponents, the Tories—(Hear) — " of the responsibility that was attached to the measure." Was not that judging of a measure by its real merits, and giving his sup port to it, if it were good, without any party considerations as to who were the men that proposed it ? (Hear.) When the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin ran away with big as sertions about murder and slaughter, and devastation; asser tions which he wished not only to produce their effect in that House, but to send out with all the weight that his name could give to them to the 100,000 whom he had described as within hearing—(Hear)—to whom he suggested the announcement of the resolution of the Government would bring tidings of death to their sons, their fathers, and their mothers ; when he did this, did he think he was imitating the conduct of Mr. Grattan ? He (Mr. S. Rice) asked how it was that the Hon. and Learned Member pretended to know 'and ventured to impugn the intentions of Government ?—(Hear.) What right had he to do so?—(Hear.) Let him make his case good when the Bill came into the House, and he should be ready to meet that case. What right had he to attribute to them war and destruction, when those imputations could at least as fairly be cast upon him as by him on any among the Ministry ? (Hear, hear). The Hon. and Learned Member had attacked all the Whigs, therefore he had attacked Lord Charlemont and Mr. Grattan—(" No," from Mr. O'Connell)—he had attacked them, for he had attacked without discrimination the party to which they belonged. There were in that House descendants of those illustrious men—there were within hearing men who bore their great and honoured names, and who could tell them to what party these pztriots did belong. What was it they had done for Ireland ? Had they not given her a Constitution in 1780 ?—(Hear, hear, from Mr. O'Connell.) And what was it the party to which they belonged had done for Ireland ? Who was it that first submitted the question of Catholic emancipa tion to discussion ? Charles James Fox.—(Hear, hear.) And who was it but the party which he led that had maintained the interests of Ireland, when those who now represented her interests were by the state of the law prevented from sifting in that House ?—(Hear, hear), If he asked who had done the greatest service to his country—who, since the Union, had laboured incessantly for her benefit—where was the man, Whig or Tory, that would deny it was the venerable, the honest, the consistent Sir John Newport—(Hear, hear) always at his post, and always anxious for the promotion of the advantage of Ireland.—(No, from Mr. O'Connell.) The Hon. and Learned Member dissented, and the reason probably was, that in these very walls, when he was about to close his Parliamentary career, he left to his countrymen the warning, that if they were led astray by delusions, practised upon them to seek for the repeal of the Union, they would be seeking for the repeal of a measure from which had flowed to them the highest advantages, and would be forfeiting all the benefits which he and others had so anxiously laboured to obtain for them, and all their hopes of political improvement must termi nate for ever.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet had concluded his political life with that warning ; and perhaps the dissent of the Hon. and Learned Member opposite, and his shake of the head might be easily accounted for by the weight which he had felt belonged to an opinion coming from such a quarter.—(Oh no, from Mr. O'Connell.) There was one au thority which, with respect to this argument about the conduct and character of the Whigs, he should like to mention, and he called the particular attention of the House, who had heard an account of the demerits of the present Ministry, to that authority. The state ment he was about to quote was made on the 22d of June, 1831, and related to a Right Hon. Friend of his. The speaker from whom he should quote said " he was quite convinced, and he spoke from practical experience, that no set of men are more heartily disposed to do good to Ireland than this Government, and in his opinion they deserved for their conduct the support of every independent Member."—(Hear, hear.) On the 10th of May, 1832, when the present Ministry were about to retire from office, a debate came on in which the same speaker said that " they retired from office with a character unsullied.—(Hear.) —with public confidence in them undiminished; and they would return shortly to the possession of power, which they would employ only for the benefit of the people; he hoped that they would again wield it for the permanent accom plishment of the desires and wishes of a great and enligh tened nation; that whoever wished to bring about such a change as would produce the restoration of the Ministry, would be conferring the greatest benefit on his country ; let but a short time pass without that restoration, and he must be a bold man who would undertake to say where the consequences would stop; but that if the danger was as great for Ireland as it was for England, he asked whether the change with regard to Ireland would not be frightful ?" That was the evidence to which he now applied himself in answer to the speech of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, and he did it with the more confidence, because he read the statements from the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's own speech.—( Hear, hear.) He (Mr. S. Rice) thought that upon the principle of mathematics these two quantities destroyed each other, and they had no right per haps, at least they had no disposition, to forget the praise, and retort the vituperation.—(Hear, hear.) Did the Hon. Mem ber not know, when he spoke of the neglect of Ireland, that a single measure introduced during the disputed progress of the Reform Bill was not capable of being satisfactorily discussed ; but though that was the fact with one question, was there not one of importance that had been actually carried ? Was the question of education nothing ?—(Hear, hear.) How nu merous had been the statements of the Hon. and Learned Gen. tleman on that subject? The present Government alone had ventured to grapple with it, and had produced a measure which had met even with the assent of the Hon. and Learned Gen leraan. It was indeed opposed by others. That they should say the Ministry were wrong was natural; but that the con duct of the Ministry should now be unsparingly, and without limit, attacked by those who through them had obtained that which they had asked for during many years, was to him matter of extreme surprise. But were there no other measures ? He thought there were ; and that brought him to a particular point. The Hon. and Learned Member had dealt with financial statements. He (Mr. S. Rice) should like to know what was the tax of all others, the repeal of which was advocated by the friends of Ireland ? It was the coal tax. The coal tax had been mentioned in all the petitions on the subject of the taxes in Ireland ; and if the Hon. and Learned Gentleman looked through the journals of the House of Commons, he would see that within the last three years the petitions had especially applied themselves to this tax. He should now take a view of the financial state of the country before and after the Union. The Hon. and Learned Gentle man had spoken as if Ireland had been prosperous before the Union, and had decayed since ; as if she had had before the Union a careful, prudent, a kind Legislature, but had since had a careless, unkind, and partial Legislature. Before the Union the financial condition of Ireland stood thus :—her in come in 1791, was 1,190,0001. ; her expense during the same time, was 1,153,000/. Ten years afterwards her expenses had increased in the ratio of nearly double her income; for at that time her income was 2,684,0001., and her expenditure 5,893,000/. To bring it to a practical test—taking the interest of the debt, and the charges for Ireland at the time of the Union, they left no greater surplus than 4,600,0001. to meet the expenses of the whole civil, military, and political government of Ireland. That was the starting point. Was it possible for any one to say that such a surplus was sufficient for such a purpose ? Perhaps there were some reasoners who thought that Ireland might be permitted to retain all her income, and that England ought to bear the expense of all these charges. That would tie like Sir Boyle Roche's description of an Irish bargain, where all the mutuality was on one side,—(A laugh.) He came then to the period of the consolidation of the Exchequer. At the time the balance of the debt was struck, the interest and charges of the permanent debt of Ireland amounted to 5,900,000/. To meet those charges was an income of 5,700,000/. ; so that the country had nothing to do but to live, as some indi viduals among them we re sa id to l i ve, upon the deficiency of their income.—(A laugh.) Neither the state of things before the Union, nor when there was a separate Treasury, was such as to be calculated to induce any one who considered it to wish to return to it. At the time of the Union there were taxes on carriages, on horses, on servants, and there was a tax on what he would appeal to the speeches of Grattan for a descrip tion of, and tothe recollection of those who had seen it collected, for an estimate of its misery —he meant the tax on hearths and on windows. These were not the creatures of an Imperial Par. Bement. Were they imposed by England on Ireland? No. It was a separate Legislature which had imposed them, and it was a British Legislature that had freed Ireland from the burdens.—(Hoar, hear, hear.) The separate Parliament had imposed difficulties upon the exportation of Irish produce. At that time there were corn laws between England and Ireland,as strict as they now were between England and the Continent. Did the Hon. and Learned Gentleman think that the establish ment of a free intercourse between the two countries could take place without benefit to Ireland ? Was there any man who would not admit that it must be an advantage to the empire ? That free intercourse had been the concession of the Imperial Parliament, as the contrary system had been the creature of the separate Legislature ? He knew it had been said, that the amount of exports only proved the poverty of the land. —(A laugh.) How could that be ? The export represented labour—the produce was grown by the peasantry, who did not work without being paid for it. Was not the mea sure of these exports the direct measure of the increased de. mand for labour; which, after all, was the thing most wanted in Ireland ?—(Hear.) But to return to the taxes. Did Honourable Gentlemen know the amount of taxes which Eng land had paid most severely, and from all of which Ireland had been exempted ? England had paid a property tax of 152 millions—assessed taxes to the amount of fifty millions— a beer tax of eighty-two millions—a soap tax of twenty-four millions—a candle duty of ten millions —a duty on printed cotton of thirteen millions—from all of which Ireland had been free; and which made, together, the sum of 333 millions, to contribute to which she had . never called on Ireland. He did not argue against his country in stating these things ; bijt •%, ' 1 _ ` L. he was not the worse Irishman for wishing to do full justice to England. Whatever might be said as to the ques. tion of exports, the same observation would probably not be made with regard to imports ; and if they found an in creased consumption of the necessaries of life, they were justi fied in saying that improvement had taken place in the con. dition of the people. In 1777 the imports of Ireland amounted to 2,716,0001. in value ; in 1783, to 3,043,000/. ; in 1793, to 4,164,000/. ; in 1800, to 4,002,000/. ; and in 1826, to 7,491,000/.- (Hear, hear, hear.) In 1827 the account was defective, be cause the trade of Ireland having been freed frem Custom. house regulations, so far as regarded this country, there were no entries of goods imported from England, and consequently no documents could be furnished. Well, but then he knew it was said that the blanket and stuff trade had been de stroyed, and the people of Ireland had been told that that was one of the consequences of the Union. Now Ireland was a wool-importing country, and he would show them how the wool importation had gone on. In 1777, Ireland imported 857,0001b5. of wool ; in 1783, 841,0001b5. ; in 1793, 1,160,0001b5. ; in 1811, 4,065,0001b5. ; in 1820, 6,068,0001b5. ; and in 1826, 6,680,0001b5. He wished his Honourable Friend the Mem ber for Bolton were there to hear this statement, and see how he could treat it-he who had discovered that the only alarming evil which Ireland ought especially to take care to shun was the getting rich. She must not have too much capital-(A laugh.) His Hon. Friend had now come in -(A laugh)-but he should not be tempted by that circum stance to do more than make this passing observation on his very capital speech.-(A laugh.) From the statement he had just made, it was evident that Ireland could do something in manufactures. But on that point he was encountered by another very great authority, the Member for Oldham, whose argument was, that in proportion as there was a consumption of raw pro duce for the purpose of manufactures, in that very proportion was misery increased. He was afraid, if that doctrine was true, that he should give some colour to the opinion about the in creased misery of Ireland ; for he should show an in creased consumption of raw produce in manufactures. In 1777 the importation of cotton yarn was 883,0001b5. ; in 1783, it was 545,0001b5.; in 1793, it was 276,0001b5.; in 1800, it was 558,0001b5.; in 1811, it was 972,0001bs ; in 1820, it was 1,279,0001b5. ; and in 1826, 2,510,0001b5.-(Hear.) During the same time the im. Portation of cotton wool had increased from 428,0001b5. to 4,368,0001h5. ; all of which was to be manufactured by Irish labour, that would not have been employed if the absurd sYstem of protecting duties existing before the Union had been continued, and which would, no doubt, be again called for if that Union was repealed. Perhaps he should be told that this increased consumption of other articles of manufacture was at the expense of the linen trade ; and that, in proportion as the others improved, that de cayed. What was the fact ? In 1777, the export of linen was 80 millions of yards; in 1783, it was 18 millions; in 1793, it was 34 millions; in 1800, it was 36 millions; in 1810, it was 40 millions ; in 1820, it was 48 millions; and in 1826, it was 56 millions of yards. The Hon. and Learned Member should see these documents, if he wished; or should have them laid on the table, if he moved for them. That which he had stated was not vague declamation, but plain truth ; for his aim was to convince, and not to mislead.-(Hear, hear.) Under a system of free trade, Ireland had become a manufacturing and export ing country. There were certain branches of manufacture more advantageous to one country than to another. In one hand-labour was cheaper ; in the other fuel being plentiful, labour was performed by steam; and, what was still more interesting, that which could be best done in Ireland in the earlier stages of the process, could be best completed in England ; and that led to the principle that the interests of the countries were not two, but one.-(Hear, hear.) The article begun at Belfast, was completed at Manchester; and if he could show that the interest of both was bound up in the same object in some measure, he obtained a pledge for the peace and repose of the two countries. Were they to break asunder these bands of Union-were they to say that Belfast must no longer begin, nor Manchester finish, but that each must do that which would be better performed by the other-that each were to be actuated by hostile interests, and not to pursue a common good-and that all this was to be done in the weak endeavour to work out a local salvation by the operation of petty and mistaken principles ? Repeal the Union ineeed ! When that was said to Mr. Canning, his an swer properly was, " Repeal the Union ! restore the Heptar. chy !"-and truly the one would be as beneficial to the country as the other. There was one other subject to which he would now most especially direct the attention of the House-he al luded to the importation of raw sugar. In 1777 an average was taken of the preceding year, and that average was found to yield but an annual import of 212,000 cwt. ; while at the pre sent time it would be found that the average import was 342,000 cwt. This advance, be it observed, had taken place in the very face of an increasing taxation. He was sustained by similar facts with regard to the article of tea. In 1777 the im portation of tea was 808,000 lbs., while the average of the pre sent time was 3,887,995 lbs. Hon. Gentlemen had said, and might continue to say, that Ireland was not a coal country. That might or might not make for the argument ; but the quantity actually consumed was very material. In the three years, ending 1777, the quantity of coal imported amounted to but 330,000 tons ; and in 1783, being the first year of Irish inde pendence, the consumption was 227,000. It Was rather sta tionary between that time and the Union. From 1800, then, to the present time, the consumption had gone on gradually increas ing. The average of the three years, ending 1832, yielded a consumption of 851,000 tons ; and 1831 had to itself a con sumption of 940,000 tons. He was aware that Hon. Members might tell him that the consumption of tea and sugar proved nothing with regard to the actual condition of the poor and degraded peasantry of Ireland; but it was to the last degree unstatesmanlike to assume that the condition of the lower classes was not advancing, when the state of the middle and higher classes was in a state of evident progression. But there was one article of consumption which was essentially a favourite with the people. That article could have no con sumption whatever, unless created by the lower classes of the Irish peasantry. He found that the advance of that article was as follows :--In 1790, the consumption of it was 2,599,000; in 1800, it was upwards of 4,000,000 ; in 1826, it advanced to 6,000,000 ; and in 1832, it was upwards of 8,000,000. Now, what was that article ► What could it be but whisky.- (Cheers, and laughter.) He believed there was not an im partial and intelligent man in the country who would not be willing to admit that England had done a great deal for Ire land. At the period of the Union, a contract was entered into between the two Legislatures to pay a sum of 63,0004 for a period of six years, these payments to be derived from votes of the Imperial Parliament, and handed over for the pur poses arranged under that agreement. These sums were to be devoted to the advancement of charity, literature, and manufactures in Ireland. This sum ot: 63,0004 was estimated, according to an average taken on the six years antecedent to the Union. This sum in twenty years amounted to 1,465,000/. He would ask the House whether the Imperial Parliament had or had not performed its contract ? If the Imperial Par liament had violated its pledge, the advocates of Union might very consistently call out repeal ! But what was the fact ? The Imperial Parliament had, instead of confining itself to 1,465,0004, actually voted for those purposes in Ireland no less than 6,979,000/., exclusive of 5,513,0004 granted for other pur poses connected with the local improvement of Ireland. Since the Union, a sum of 6,4.32,000/. had been advanced out of the Consolidated Fund for the improvement of harbours in Ireland, of which 2,500,000/. had been repaid. There was, however, an additional loan of capital to the extent of 3,899,9004, con. fined to local improvement in the interior of the country. The total amount of grants, then, to Ireland, for the articles of charity and literature, amounted to 4,225,000/. ; for the ad vancement of agriculture and manufactures, 1,340,000/. ; for public works in Ireland there was an advance of 3,072,000/. When cholera visited the British empire, the necessary ad. vances in England amounted to about 12,000/., while those for Ireland were 164,000/. It had been said that the Public Works' Bill produced no beneficial effect in Ireland. Now how did the fact stand with respect to the pecuniary part of the transaction ? No less a sum than 179,000/. was granted in the form of loan, and 9,700/. in the shape of gifts. Did he advert to all these circumstances for the purposes of denying that there existed in Ireland poverty and distress to a very fearful extent; but did any one attempt to say that poverty and distress had not existed before the Union, to an extent quite as painful and quite as extensive as at any time since ? Was it not a matter well known to every man acquainted with the state of Ireland, that the wool trade and the manufacture of cotton had been from the earliest period bolstered up and sustained by the votes and the bounties of a mistaken and ill-judging Parliament ? Did he make these observations for the purpose of discouraging the munificence of England ? He, on the contrary, should be the last man in the world to utter a word to diminish the sym. pathy, and kindness, and good feeling of the people of England toward the Irish. He warned the advocates of repeal to beware how they stopped those sources of benevolent assistance which the people of Ireland had hitherto enjoyed at the hands of the British nation. He warned those gentlemen to beware, for to use a metaphor powerfully turned to account by a distinguished coun tryman of theirs, even if they might go about sowing dragons' teeth-even if they succeeded, those seeds might spring up armed men. They might for a season go abroad scattering hatred and ill-wili, but even if they succeeded in revolution, they might themselves be the first victims. The question of repeal was in fact the question of separation-that it involved' the destruction of Monarchy and the establishment of a Re public, the founders of which might make up their minds to fall the first victims. Of course, as soon as the Hon. and Learned Member, and the 104 others, were installed as the new House of Commons for Ireland, they would set about forming a new Constitution ; and it had been generally said, if not avowed, that one of the first measures of the Irish Parliament would be to impose a tax of 75 per cent. on absentees. But did' it never strike any body, that in that stormy society, some one might possibly be found just to hint or whisper that the King of England himself was an absentee ? He was satisfied that the repeal of the Union could only end in separation, and se paration in ruin. The Hon. and Learned Member had con tended again, that strong measures would lead to civil war ; but the object of Ministers was not to excite commotion, but to strengthen the law ;-to avert, not to provoke the threat ened evil.-(Cheers.) Mr. COBBETT—H tying been in some measure called upon by the Hon. Member who has just sat down, I shall trouble the House with a few observations, and I promise not to trespass long upon its attention. With regard to t h e question of the dissolution of the Union, and the con sequences to which it may lead, upon those matters I offer no opinion. I have never thought of the subject suffi= ciently to warrant my giving an opinion upon it ; but the Hon. Member (Mr. S. Rice) seems to think that I was in error in the principles I put forth the other night in answer to the Hon. Member for Knareshorough (Mr. Richards). It was not of principles I spoke. I made use of no arguments. I offeted n opinions—they were facts that I stated. I said in answer to his observation relative to the increase of trade in Ireland, that all might be very true, and still the people be in great misery; aye, and in greater misery in proportion to the increase of trade. I mentioned from certain information, one of these days to be laid before a Committee of this House, to be proposed by my Hon. Colleague, that in proportion as the cotton trade of Manchester increased, in that proportion the profits of the master manufacturer declined, and the misery of the workman augmented. But there were doc trines advanced, and principles laid down by the Hon. Gentleman, evhich I must take this opportunity of con testing. He laid it down as a principle, that because the exports of Ireland bad increased, and because those exports were produces! by Irish labour, because they represented Irish labour—that, therefore, eit was a proof of the pros perity, and of the increasing prosperity of Ireland. Push that argument home, and you will find it exactly suit the negroes of Jamaica. What ! did ever any one hear that the happiness of the negroes incre seed in proportion to the increase of the demand for sugar ? On the contrary, all who have ever advocated the abolition of negro slavery have constantly asserted that, in proportion to the de mand for labour was the lash inflicted.—(Hear, hear.) I appeal to the books and publications on the subject ; and I remember a passage in one of them to this effect : " The price of sugar has been announced to be so and so; dreadful orders have therefore been issued ; the hours of labour are to be so many more, and- the lash is to be called into additional activity." There was a little exagge ration, perhaps, in what fell from Mr. Cropper, of Liver pool, nut long ago, when he said that there was no pros pect of abolition as long as Parliament did not interfere; that, in proportion to the increased demand fire cotton, was the increased inflictio n o f t h e l as h to quicken the labour of the negro. But upon this point I will not fatigue the House with details. The great evil of Ireland is, that her produce is all sent out of her land. You may talk as long as you please about the benefits of her exports. I remember the Primate of Ireland living for twenty years in the parish of Fulham; during the whole of that time be was receiving his immense revenues from Ireland. He died worth 300,0001. in personal property; having been a younger son without hereditary estates. Where did it all come from ? Why, from Ireland, to be sure.— (Cheers.) Ireland, poor Ireland, It td enabled this Archbishop to leave behind him 300,0001., besides what he annually spent. When people talk of the faults of Government, I do not mean to say that they have not done all that was possible to amelierate the lot of Ireland. They have always done it ; • and why should they not ? It is the interest of Ministers to keep Ireland tranquil, and to avoid all causes of disturbance.—(Cheers.) But that country can never be in a good state where grants from the Treasury are wanted to put industry in motion.— (Hear.) And this is the history of Ireland—the whole of her produce and riches has been always drawn away. I was very much surprised to hear the Right Ron. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) the other night—" Ah ! tell the this—have we imposed a corn law upon Ireland ?" Gentlemen, I take it, would hardly impose corn laws upon themselves. The land is theirs—the produce is theirs—the profit of the Church is theirs; and all is drawn away hither. They would be strange sort of gentlemen, with less sagacity than I give them credit for, if they imposed corn laws upon Ireland. No, no ; they lay corn laws upon a coun try where they have no land, where tithes and Church property ,eire not theirs—there they impose corn laws, and pretty heavy ones, too.—(Cheers.) Another thing has been urged. It is slid that England has paid such amass of taxes, while Ireland has only paid so much. It is very shallow to put it in that way; if the produce of Ireland comes to England, the taxes of Ireland are paid in Eng land.—(Hear, hear.) That is the real cause of the exist ing misery ; the Irish do not gain the fruits of their labour —it comes here ; here it is expended, and here it is taxed. Therefore it is not more fair to estimate the amount of taxes of Ireland th tn to estimate the amount of taxes of Jamaica, when we know that the owners of estates in Ja maica are resident here, and are taxed here. There is very little difference. Mr. G. ROBINSON remarked, that the head and front of the offending of Ministers against the Hon. and' Learned Member for Dublin (Hr. O'Connell) was, that they had inserted a paragraph in the King's Speech decla ring a determination to support the Union, and no at tempt to conciliate him would have the slightest effect as long as they stood in the way of his favourite project, He (Mr. Robinson) strongly objected to the line of con duct pursued by a certain portion of the House during the last week ; it was calculated to impede public business, to sow distrust, and to lead the Irish to believe that there -was a want of sympathy for their sufferings among the English Representatives.—Cheers.) No doubt the Hon. Member for Dublin had been bitterly disappointed by the result of the division the other night ; his forty votes had caused him nu little vexation, and the renewal to-night of the course pursued I ist week made it almost seem as if the ob ject of the Irish Members was to disgust the English Members, and to drive them to a dissolution of the Union in order to avoid the infliction of Hibernian orasory.— (Cheers and laughter.) He (Mr. Robinson) believed that Ministers were the sincere friends of Ireland, and if the object of Irish Members were really to promote tranquil lity, they would accomplish it much better by inculcating upon the people the necessity of patience, and reliance on the honest exertions of those who could have no interest in rendering their condition worse, but every motive to im prove it. He was no party man, he did not profess to be a supporter of Ministers, but it was only fair to give them time to look at abuses, and to_ provide remedies.—( Hear, hear, bear.) He agreed that the paragraph in the King's speech, Si much commented upon, might have been bet ter worded; more might have been said about redress and less akout coercion ; but in voting for the address, he did not consider himself at all pledged to support any measure of vigour that might be introduced. The Irish were a ge nerous and a confiding people, and he believed that they woeld wait with patience for the remedy of their griev ances if the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin would but take half the pains to allay that he did to excite.— (Much cheering.) Mr. RICHARDS said that he had voted for the ad dress in order to show the country and the King that he was rea'!y to give all constitutional means of preserving entire the Union with Ireland.—(Hear.) Like the Hon. Gentleman who last spoke, he did not on that ac count feel himself pledged to measures of coercion, should tey not appear necessary. He then proceeded to answer what the Hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Cobbett) had said on a former night on the subject of the introduc tion of the poor laws into Ireland, and contended that their adoption was absolutely necessary. On a late occasion, the Hon. Member for Oldham had replied by a sophism which might do very well for the Political Register, but was very unfit for the Clouse of Commons. He had asked, if the poor laws would remedy the evils of Ireland/ how it happened that they had not prevented the evils of England ? But he forgot to consider what would have been the present situation of this country had the poor laws not been in operation for the last 2bo years. The Bill of the Right Hon. Member for Tanaworth could never have been borne but for the effect of the poor laws ; and if Ireland had possessed the same resources for her starving population, there would have been no insurrection or nightly outrages. The Hon. Member for Oldham had compared Ireland and Jamaica, and had reasoned as if they were in the same con dition—omitting all notice of the main distinction, that in Ireland labour was free, while in Jamaica it was performed by slaves. Consequently, an increased demand for the produce of the West Indies was attended with increased suff•rings on the part of the negroes, both of labour and punishment. The Hon. Member concluded by relating nine particular facts in favour of poor laws in Ireland, which had come to his knowledge through a land agent from Dublin, which did not appear very convincing to the House, front the manner in which they were received. Mr. J. BROWN (of Mayo), said that the charges which the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin brought against him and his father had no foundation in truth. He denounced those charges as untrue, and he did so at a time when every honest man should come forward— at a time when every Irishman who valued his country, or was loyal to his King, should rebut unfounded statements. He did not mean to accuse anybody of cowardice for having " registered a vow in heaven," when it was done u se u it t h if a t v h ie er s of following e v lceruin some that Hou p sea ar m tic an ula u r course singtl,e of f g l r i eu e ; power he possessed to cause acts of turbulence and violence —if there were Buell a man, inflaming at public meetings, and in every way possible, the minds of a whole people, and stirring them up to riot and bloodshed, without at all endangering his person or his property—then would he say that such a man was a coward. That might be pain ful to the Hun. and Learned Gentleman, and he would not have made such an allusion, if the Hon, and Learned Gen tleman bad been in the habit of respecting the feelings of of others. So far from doing that, he had taunted him i f t M. B.) w r usnis pra not - only utiu in h e to ointsualtt every y se b man, au u , t w e i l t s h et elsewhere —_in offering any y earned Member had means of reparation. With respect to thoefHivoina.yaon,dlieLetvato ned uld that a poor ssAaalyiedTabfieenrw'asdwevtoaerrtetdimsn.genttoTs a hti b e : He t rou t ne h i e tya c no o df un tt t e police, woman singing a song upon the road was sufficient to ex cite their wrath, and that upon such a trifling occasion they discharged their pieces, and caused the loss of two or three lives.—(No, no, from Mr. O'Connell.) The Hon. and Learned Member made also another statement touching the cruelty of the police. Upon this ettittulent be (Mr.R.) - made inquiries, and had that day accounts from Ireland. They related to the deal John M'Gratb, which the Hon. and , Learned characterised as a real butchery on the part of the Mr. O'CONNELL—I said no such thing; was, that lives were lost by the firing of the police' Mr. J. BROWN—WeII, the Coroner's verdict 0 butchery was, that John M'Grath died Of a wound, inflicted by a police sergeant in the exact° duty. There was an important fact coni*Cte4" inquest, namely, that after the Jury were ' and before the inquest began, two of the J4 l api eared. When the Coroner afterwards n o they went away, their answ e r w as , th a t iroleY 0 . 4 1 verdict on any Fide but on e , it w o u ld be at the pel. their lives.—(Hear, bear.) This was only on e added to the many, that in several parts of It , trial by jury was nothing better than a mockery of since many good and conscientious men were from sitting on a Jury, because they were Os" ' incur the, risk of property and life. The coercive sures that his Majesty's Ministers demanded wer e lately necessary, and he, as one that was once; the safety.of the empire, would support them. Member concluded fly saying, that nothing did g' jury to Ireland than the agitation of the repeal and thathe would not have spoken, were it nu general and personal misstatements of an Hon. and t Member, whose rebuk es an d ca l umn i es h e slo wd consider in the light of an honour. Mr. M. O'CONNELL said, that as an Irish could not tamely sit and hear all that had been said l his unfortunate country. He would not detain the but for a very few moments, and would remark' respect to the declaration of the last Hon. Gem the effect that he would support the coercive mesa quired by Government, that no Hon. Gentleman make such a declaration until he knew the specitie„; ol , sures Ministers contemplated.--(Hear, hear.) , own part, as long as Ministers did not explain their sures,' he should take it for granted that they %vete, He maintained, from his own personal observatio n, Ireland- was not half so disturbed at present as it years ago, when extraordinary powers were in certain parts. Then why demand coercive D.d they want to see, as in the county of Clare since, the people fighting with the soldiery on t roads, and preventing the roads from being ' The truth was, that the coercive naea,ures were • not to tranquillize the present state of Ireland, but vent the repeal of the Union.—(Hear, hear.) The and Learned Member for Dublin University ha d upon the miserable state to which the P. otestant were re Weed in Ireland. But he did not say was partly their own faults. He (Mr. O'Connell) of cases where the parsons seized upon mile!' cow° they were offered dry beasts, as they were called, depriving the poor owners of the means of thriving' frequently, of the means of subsistence. For hi' part he considered that the life of a single peasan t to be as dear to the State as the preservation of th e nues of parons.—(Hear.) An Hon. Member (Mr. ROCHE, we u nderste-^A. dressed, from b e hind th e T reasury b enc h es, t h e 1 0° ` some time. Not a word of what he uttered was ' in the gallery.—(Question, question.) Another Hos. MEMBER (whose name was not k' spoke from the Ministerial side of the House, and inehded an honest but energetic a d m i n i strat i o n of e o in Ireland. That part of the empire was in - agitation was the source of that danger, and for that son he would support his Majesty's Ministers ° 0 efforts to obtain extraordinary powers for the coac t° Ireland.—(Loud cries of ‘• Question.") Mr. DAVID ROCHE said, that the Irish people as peaceable as any other portion of bis Majesty's For the last twenty years he had lived in the heart county of Limerick, and never knew that county tranquil than at the present time. The existicgd were su ffi cient to repr ess a ll di stur b ances i n Irel ei V, was proved by- their late applica t io n t o the Conn" Mayo and Clare. But, says the Right Hon. opposite, crime has increased within 'the last six Let him prove it, and make out his case. He the occurrence of 400 or 500 atrocities, but he dt say whether the majority of them were perpetrat ,d ;d the first or second of th e l ast two years. He wi show the increase of crime within the last six over the first six months of the second last year' d e he did, he could make out n o case as to a n incre crime.—(Question.) o il Mr. JUHN O'CONNELL protested in the nsin e , constituency against the attemp t which Governose 0 4 making to trample upon the rights and liberties r jo people of Ireland. He protested in the most I • 7't manner against such an attempt , an d h e ' called nrit representatives of the English people not to sane °° their votes, 11 4 ,1:. 4 4 ' ,144_4 We ; 15( 1 1t1 ;1_4•, kitl :e41, p , adoptthic Aai n k gt sin to pi Ya k bi d eere al Ac vAl You r I:Nti 34 ty to th, Ili sl „Nl k ' na t We 41 10 ' t, ' 4 ure, he • The SPEAKER—The question now is that t ' ' t . t tia,, 'dista l; port be br oug ht up an d rea d . eO,O 01,,4,0141then An HON. MEMBER said that he hail a n atnerld il f ti ,l tio : N at t ?ood move, which he should have done in the early pai l o to ' t itty`:th pf , l " evening had he not forgotten it. He wished O W vt4 el l , 4 ta -ace ' s r) , a., tt 'eo n , allowed to reed it. iNt'ett ; n leet The SPEAKER—The time is not y e t arr► retl 414 , 31 tl you were formerly too late, you are now too sy ° 4 0 1 will be necessary tor you to wait until you come ;iO 4 words of the rep or t y ou o bj ect to . T hen w ill be t he tt,,the sta , fur your amendment. ere ?' t us o Alr. COBBEVf —Oth e r H on . M em b ers ma y; hi 4.t the reading of the repu t t w h eie th ey p l ease , and arts' that such ur such parts be omitted; for my 0 0 " ° !:.ar 0 4 4C h ,' Si t . object to every title of the report after th e pos ic' t " Most Gracious Majesty." The Noble Lord 0 10 ,0 divi lt 4 ; 4 Z r tal (Lord Althorp) complains that much time has bee° i i ,(f o ; Leh it discussing the address, and that the waste ofsucli tiT e h t.lo tq ln t respectful to his Majesty. S o f ar t h e N o bl e L or d is r 1; tr i i t 4, 1 4 lip s ea l , I agree with him, and h o p e , moreover, t h at t his v1 : 0 frut Sty ni the last night su uselessly wasted. But I beg ° tt Op ts 0k form the Noble Lord that the f a ult li es w ith hit° b etel ' t tato 'Ett Colleagues. It they had followed the ancient PTV 14 4 t of the House, they would have no reason to coon ) Igai, t Le , tr t loss of time, or of disrespect towards his AlajestYivO' 1 1 . 1 14 t t tl. u ° I ancient practice was, that the speech from the t b 4t ' i ll t i,giV%7 l should be read to the House, after which short of Wes were passed to his Majesty. Tutu the House ' 8 ' 1,11)- 11 1f h ` i4, t ' ,Nee b t r' to give time to read the speech, and prepare ones ' e s iac " 4 4 4 4 4 )1 4 ' be tully sole to discuss the address. I think such it ; t t ht otttht Ai. tee not only vastly convenient to the House, tOi Ot;O vastly more respectful towards his Majesty. ti it t t tied upon such a subject is able to speak sensibly ati u d o f l t r tht th purpose, without time for preparation. It was ,3 ' r e 'p t h e " heaven-burn Pitt," that he would speak upon 5 . 0 0 4 , 1 1 ',, t 10) they tern without preparation. I suppose! it was be c t i o alit; k "ts,,, t '' n , was " heaven-horn," that he could do so; yet I t he was ever expected to be able to answer o n the !'r i i tt 'S k t tr uth g o the moment a King's speech—a thing that reV i oi r' el Ti t much . titne to answer as to write. Formerly less ear ars ii al4 ; j„i i required to he able to speak upon the address; '° 1 41 4 1 it % ,,, a Hon. Members used to hear it read the day before f t cf,' 4ka made public in the Cockpit, and cousequcntlY C-U e b ii tr t &ttei lt li home and sleep upon it. Besides which, the sP e ' to (C_ 4l ettet tb t written by the King's Ministers; it was put itj o jdr teiz et , King's mouth by the Minister ; the mover of th e 1„' received his instructions trout the same so° t" ,; tp i th t t , 41 1.13 the address to his Majesty, in answer to the sP ee i,;" i ts t ,'ltte, written by his Majesty's servants: so that the rO 3i r ", very summary. The Hon. Member for Worces te f i t j f el I.l ( 4 4 ttit,the s i t plains that we have heard nothing in the course o ° ,,i sk t ° l 4, debate regarding the state of England, and that tb ltet ot" , i e o , of the talk has been about Ireland ;if the Hon* h e ' i 'r % i er rup t i and all those in whose interests he feels inte re Z e es ` 144 1 th de the danger of a dungeon staring bitit to t- b e 'l 'e 4ver t he would ask inure tim e to consider the m atter t . : 9 0 1 ; as sn one day which it `vas said should be sufficient to ( r o e, b at : tt, I,4ttetit the matter. I feel that lam not in danger of ° !Ole: i t : 1 e it at present, but I remember what took place L 14 41% C6, 41 (11 occasions, and I have reason to think that any ' te r nts; are taken towards Ireland may be preparatory t° pal) 11,4 t measures towards England.—(Cheers.) Whet , ea, ilay ,l, ky t 'tit what I consider the interests of England, I sh °u ri t to eat,! t uts 0 a ,, 4 , 4 basest of human beings if I did not come I, 4 NtC'cl pose those uncommon powers called for by the , ` liot tb j ttfri tt c :lth itt 4 11 4 to repress the disturbances in Ireland. They say `lint to! L rn op wiz do not wish to oppress Ireland, or, if possible , tliec r Ni 4 " in ex e c u ti on t h ose extraordinary powers; but a ril 44 1 t 1 t plir not tell us what they intend to d B o. ut by t h2 ` 4 t (V o t T he l i tt yud sion we ❑understand what they are determine!! 0 f fel t tl ute Ctt e l et h "trl last. My sincere opinion i s , that this propositto : to ning ext raor di nar y p owers arose so l e l y ou t of t ; re f o( of th e I r i s h e l ect i ons . —(C r i es of " No, no. ) 1 ;0/ a., 41 7, '44 4 ; 4 ' believe that the sole reason is the return tr: tho: l e it iotP e I,tl ?i5 men who are such favourites with the Irish t h d' th e ' ) es: Ni l (Cries of " No, no," and great confusion.) to , to ri titn k do Ministers not tell what they mean . to do T o e I ,l' 41 , t 'tiCt Why do they not inform those patriotic gen'e stt yr w ' v ! pO~ there have come forward to defend their country aPt iti ,.. 10 14 \ ' , a h ' and oppression the measures they mean to ad ° P . ( .1 `), h rht s did alo e want the power of silencing those gentleinen a o ti p ,;,o oo alw Iv th e patriotic individuals, by having it in th ei r i beir t a jh ik t, 4 tt e put them into dungeons. Silence or a dungeon: r pt N t choice, and I shall never agree that such I) ) v o e op erl l : e t q e o Prip, o 'vet in their hands. The speech speaks of the r ue stS t ie i a t of • tha t r) f . this country, but so far is that from being 3 tr t 1 4 - rthi lt ()) Pet the situation of the country, that, perhaps' 3 . 0 10 1)1 1 , es t , N4i d 1 ) 4 . 1 bi time, there are from five to six millions of the ' ,100 4 / 1 , 41 . 4 5 to 'lor, of the kingdom suffering the greatest wretch e I ' o 4 e t 1 Nrn'o ha want of food, of clothing, and th e m est cotn ifj `be 4 ' t vor i3e 3 ' but , caries of life. A state me nt h as b een ru , de anti Member for Leeds regarding the prosperousl:lor that community; but 1 can men ti o n a a 7)btareiton,!fgdnitilioyealnotiels.,7ool4ll;:ainf vi,t,,..... ._4i.ueti!,lo at the death 6 . 94 earned, 111ershir's11141:1411ent- sr hht 400,.,itlefter he police. _i' t 4. ',..114, -114 , verdict on 7: l i _l t sti ß. -a Of a gun•W f 7',4l,iithe rie exrrcise of 0 ihe.i t C, thes s'*4 *fed: :00 , ,}),... , . rniyinen.bed.. ,10 S ir ( 1:." 0,1 ;squired ' I ;bf , In tgeie r t 11 n si . tt s* ke e l t irtbey gisPnay, un ri:fl )e at the peril 4 Id, 4 1i On " i only o ne chPut 4 ' 1 it rio'.ek°weireyireroelfajnsietili:telithitn'ostortZi'dgtestv, o;:itlai !ere unsvilline,,eo, lit JAI he coercive illtr!au 1,141,444 44 h e 1 nded were' sbirj te.444 1 as coneerned,'"As" unttnen min. - The 11400,1h,irlhe 4 . ap g did greater,,o"vihottli,f .'nisi repeal quoefor lee th it not forl:lihuf,7%, 4 tit lon, and Lesr Llio ' 0 you eul he should everrur'ettik n , fin, ice ,r . eQ a 'Ple 1 a n IrishtnaLlit'lli;Nititt,,.thei been said sr•-jillisiLthei`e of detain the 11°7h tire S-1: ,Slocernl Id remark, i fast"thsilitlshie: I 1. GentlenOt pro pL I dye measures 1..% `B,k ade we itleman ougbkr-i.ittLbt e" t . 0 -.Ai .%t4, le specific .C.iiil:,;,l, ..„„,; I hear.) For. ,10,10:,),Tainectl lain their Li . kk.isS-11%. tyan they were, 'Fr s;l24.eeell°f ibserveioos ; tslizZiank , nt as it pad 164 ti- bee; Were in force, tdtifiliShikese rcive inesag,o ttisi .wittior 1 Clare ova trlits4Setfertreg iery on the .' j ' , t:o44:thoselY being repa"; ofeNbich.yoc,: !a were requi,,,r 440 ts ot :" land, hoot tor be; ts,:jettsj or.) Tbe 0 ,lati,N,je wilt] ersity lod ( 14 : 4 - - qtttl'clt ie, ), otestaut f1e...,„hLi.„,„i1/4:eatrai: tot Si)' tollt ,ens dii",,A4., ligt 'Connell) 10et: , )7s Zeetic lilch cows ,aIV-,!, Z 4 th e inre e called, thCrlsba4hZet• 5,42,_1' d thriving, 6 Att'it:',l. a`.4 For his °I: 4-V" tO a nd macbksitle anil e peasant leer. i,.. ttrer ion of tbe *r. Genera understood) s_j 74tItZ.,Itbosei as the flouts Nlik -}le•pt nail) the '7 el l ' Teti was s- , 16..gtiv .to ."1011 "11 ,di ) tehts"f was not bo—.l ii,tille-, vet rlasetionnitrber.l Isbalh'"' ::tbraatiii est/ R,‘all fL at , a 4 in daos- etittliti-!ie ab and for Wi t 0 ti°l47l, a nd r holsters ru n°lelis,kl%_l.llleconE - ic74 te nd tc the c oerci o t(lttlil.t 4,3 Of 7 , rish people 00 t'11,447-4,Porta ajesty sultlel 4ticolk tlmUrs. i the heart 01.4/ Ail ' Ivh,; P i et at c ountY nrit, otS7 We 1e existiDg 00 1.4,4)441ear5r :In in IrClsoji ' -.41 ti h as a I the couodei,jht, I,lear to ; Hon. Secretr)l44 l / 4 1 1 4s and wt last six 03101:14itt:, Ni-°„h ou He inetitiurt it,:;kl,-rde, ..i ce,,_. light„,7% .liti,k, bo r - ti, - .7s ' tr i 4 so —4,,,„ last rsbp.ue ttruabstie,idoddlidott et:b:lll.444zl.2tl4ititeiii'eatc,::urynpes:ite tqi ne4 I it,