The Sun. — London, England, 1863-03-24 00:00:00

'ERIAL PARLIAMENT HOUSE OF LORDS—Last Evening. Lord REDESDALE, in the a ,, sence of the Lord Chancellor, took his seat on the woolsack at the usual hour. PRIVATE BUSINESS, The Yarmouth Gas Bill was read a third time and passed POLAND. Earl VANE presented a petition from the county of Durham in favour of Poland, and, in particular, praying that England would use her influence to produce non-inter ference on the part of Prussia. SALMON FISHERIES. The Earl of MALMESBURY presented a petition pray ing for the pretection of fisheries and against the importa tion of salmon. THE SOUTHERN CONFEDERACY. Lord ST le AT HEDEN, in calling attention to the question of the propriety of acknowledging, in concert with other neutral Powers, the Southern Confederacy as an in dependent Mate, said he had not been able to state on an earlier occasion the exact view with which this subject was about to be submitted to their lordships, owing to the ab sence of the noble earl the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, whom he was glad to see now in his place. It was not his intention to raise any question as to the past proceedings of her Majesty's Government in reference to American affairs, his preposition had relation altogether to the future, and to facts well known. About the close of last session it was generally:alleged, and no doubt with truth, that the Govern ments of France and England were acting simultaneously and in concert with regard to the difficulties which existed in America. Since that time the policy of the two Govern ments had in some degree diverged, or, in the memorable phrase of a noble earl not now in his place (the Earl of Derby), the two Governments had seemed to drift from one another. In November last the Emperor of the French de sired to make a proposal, but was held back by the decision of her Majesty's Government. In January the Emperor en tered upon another lino of action, framed with a view to terminate hostilities, but the Government of this country were again unable to agree with him. Neither of these pro. positions having led to any practical result, all attempts al intervention, mediation, and remonstrance were ex heusted by the reply of Mr. Seward to the despatch of M, Drouyn de Lhuys. The French Government, however, being still, as ever, anxious to bring the civil war to a close, the question of recognising the independence of the Southern States might an any moment come before this country, as the question of obtaining an armistice came before it in November. Were it not for the space which Poland now occupied in the cares and councils of the world, the neces sity of giving a decision on the independence of the South would probably have arisen ere this. Whenever the moment arrived at which the Government of England must act, it was to be feared that there would be found no definite conviction either in Parliament or out of doors as to the course to be pursued. We should then be taken at a disad vantage. It was with a view, therefore, to a distinct and practical result that he had wished to give the noble earl at the head of the Foreign-office an opportunity of expressing his views on this subject. This object could not be attained in any other manner, because a resolution or an address to pledge the action of the Government would be resisted, and its withdrawal would be thought disastrous by the 8,000,000 of men whose case he now brought before their lordships. By an acknowledgment of Southern independence he meant, is accordance with the authorities on public law; the send ing an ambassador to those States or receiving one from them, the negotiation of a treaty, or the granting exequaturs to Consuls. Such an acknowledgment ought not to be con founded with interference, intervention, mediation, or pro ceedings of that kind. The noble earl opposite (the Earl of Malmesbury) had expressed an opinion that the acknowledg ment of the South would be attended by no material result one way or another. But if the acknowledgment of South ern independence were wholly immaterial, how came it that the South had never ceased to ask and the North to depre cate that acknowledgment ? How was ie that the Southern Confederacy had sent envoys to the great capitals of Europe to demand their recognition, and that the North had endea voured to intercept these envoys at the risk of war P He had heard, and the statement might have reached their lord ships also, that the planters a year ago, looking to the pro bability of the acknowledgment of the South, began to sow their cotton crop, and that they began to plough it up as soon as that hope ceased. An acknowledgment by the Great Powers of Europe would in the first place remove whatever hope might still linger in Northern minds of bringing the South into subjection, In the next place it would take away from the Northern press the power of describing the people of 11 great Southern States as rebels. The acknow ledgment of neutrals would remove the chance of conquest, and the victories already achieved by the Southern armies would be still more irresistible. Besides this a separate re sult would be obtained, for when neutrals had acknowledged the belligerents to be in a position to negotiate it would put an end to all claims to reconstruct the Union which might prolong the war. It would also emancipate the Government of Washington from the hard necessity of carrying on a hopeless war, which at present weighed upon them. Their lordships would remember the mode in which the diplo macy of France and England in 1609 succeeding in extin guishing the civil war between Spain and Holland, which had lasted the greater part of half a century. If they would remember what then took place they would know in what form and by what means the present war in America might be adjusted. That diplomacy would not have been attended with such brilliant success if the European Powers had not acknowledged the insurgents. He now approached the ardu ous task of pointing out the conditions under which neutral Powers were entitled to acknowledge insurgent nations. At the beginning of the sessicn their lordships had been told that acknowledgment might happen with propriety in two cases—where the recognising Power was about to give ma terial support to the insurgents, and where, through the pro longation of hostilities, arms had fallen from the exhausted hands of the belligerents. Whatever might be thought of the justice of that principle, it certainly was not one on which the Powers either of the Old or the New World had acted ; for a cessation of hostilities had generally followed, instead of preceding, the acknowledgment by neutrals. The United States acknowledged Nicaragua, under the government of Walker, before hostilities had ceased; the United States also acknowledged the independence of the revolted colonies of Spain before the efforts of the mother country to reduce them had ended ; and the same Power despatched an ambas sador to Hungary in 1848 or 1841, invested with large discre tionary powers, which he was to use or reserve according to the progress of the insurrection. He would notdwell further on examples taken from the New World, although he might enlarge the illustration by referring to the conduct of Brazil, which, from being placed in the midst of civil wars and insurgent Governments during the last 30 years, had con stantly cases of this kind brought forward for its decision. Passing to the Old World, he found that the French ac knowledged the independence of the British North Ame rican possessions long before the efforts of the mother country to reconquer them had been exhausted. It was idle to remark that Lord North, the Minister of the day, went to war with France on that account; it was well known that the cause provoking to war was very different. But even granting that it were so, was a war denounced by all who formed the glory of that epoch as wicked, which marred the reputation of the Minister and depressed his character, to be cited as an authority on international law and public proceedings? Was the Minister of that day, in conjunction with the reigning Sovereign, to be regarded as the heir, virtute qfficii, of the influence and the wisdom of Grotius and Vattel? Of the independence of the South American Republics the acknowledgment had, no doubt, been tardy, But that tardiness did hot entirely express the judgment of the country, for it was reprobated by the brilliant and enlightened Opposition of which the noble lord, now the Secretary of State, was at that time no incon siderable ornament. Any one, not grossly ignorant of the difficulties which at that time hampered our foreign policy, must admit that there never was an occasion when acknow ledgment had been decided less in accordance with principle or the dictates of public law and more entirely swayed by views of prudence. There was another authority, surpassing all others. and tallying in nearly every point with the ques tion now under consideration. In 1641, the independence of Portugal was acknowledged by France, Great Britain, Swe den, and Holland, within 12 months after the Duke and Dechoss of Braganza renounced their allegiance to Spain, notwithetanding that a quarter of a century elapsed before Spain herself consented to join in the recognition. At that time Prussia bad not come into existence. Russia had not begun to mingle in European affairs. Austria was leagued with Spain by ties of kindred and of policy, so that the four recognizing Powers might be said to form a general Euro pean tribunal. The decisive battle between the celebrated Schomberg and Don John of Austria was fought in 1665, but it was not till 1668 that the belligerents negotiated. He b e d examined all the great writers on international law to discover whether there had been anything in the circum stances of the recognition of Portugal of which they either expressed disapproval, or 'which would be reprobated by the principles laid down in their works. He had these authori ties with him, but would not inflict theta on their lordships. But he m i g ht refer to the authority of Si r J . Mackintosh, who in the year 1824, when intr oducing the q ues ti on o f acknow l e d g ing the South American Re Publics, alluded with satisfaction to the in stance of Portugal a strengthening the principle for which he was then con t ending. Si r James Mackintosh, their lordsh i p s would remember, was the dis ciple, the successor, and the equal o f those great writers only th ing who moulded public law into a science., Th e • required by Europe at that tine to justify recognition was that there should be no hazard of reconquest. It was not correct to say that according to the law of nations hostilities must have ceased, and the last shilling must have been spent, and the last drop of blood shed, before recognition could take place. What indeed could be more cruel than thus unnecessarily to prolong hostilities? The examples of the civil wars between Switzerland and Austria, Spain and Hol- land, Spain and Portugal, Great Britain and her North American colonies, and Spain and her South American co lonies, all showed that you were entitled to acknowledge insurgents when it seemed to you that no hazard of their reconquest any longer existed. It might be asked could you recognise a country while hostile armies were encamped upon 'to territory ? If you could not, neutral powers would be co mpelled to withdraw their Ministers from any country whi *sh became the scene of war, or of which the boundaries were tiusettlod. We ought to have withdrawn our Minister from Spain in 1822 ; but no one had ever contended for such a construction of international law. He now canoe to th , question, " Is the issue of this contest any long -r doubt ful ?" In discussing this part of the subject, he must first refer to the extraordinary circumstance that within the last few days the Confederacy had contracted in Linden, Am sterdam, and Faris a loan which now stood at the top of the market. The loan rested upon the security of cotton, and, as it was well known to the subscribers that that security would perish if the invasion prospered, the position of the loan must be regarded as an expression of the judgment of the financial world that the issue of the contest is no longer doubtful. What were the views of military men ? In November last the Emperor of the French intimated to the Government of Washington his opinion that the recon quest of the Southern States was impossible ; in the Revue des Deux Mendes for the month of October there was an article, supposed to be inspired by the Princes of the House of Orleans who accompanied Gen. M'Clellan to the field, adopting a similar view ; and,as far as our information went, we did not know that any Northern general was of opinion that reconquest was attainable. And supposing thit in the t,bstract such a reconquest was possible, the question for neutral Powers was,could it be attained by Mr. Lincoln and his colleagues ? Because, as they had not in their armies any man who, like the Duke of Wellington, was ;capable of con trolling and directing a Ministry, by them must it be accom plished, if it was to be accomplished at all. What proof of capacity had this aggressive Government given to the world ? Was it to be found in their choice of viceroys, in the super seding and replacing of commandero, or in their firm ad herence to a principle, and their opposition to slavery ? At first they vaunted their steady disposition to maintain that institutim ; then the slaves in the lower States were to be free ; then emancipation was to be extended to all States which resisted the Federal authority; then a bankrupt Treasury would buy the slaves at an outlay equal to the pub lic debt of our country; and at last a servile war was indis pensable. Were these the means by which the broken frag ments of the Union could be welded, or 8,000,000 freemen be reduced to submission. And who - was opposed to this Government ? Far be it from him to join in the encomiums on the Southern President to which heat or generosity had led; but this much might be hazarded of that extraordi nary man--that, amply gifted by nature, he had made the union of political and military excellence his object, and, in a position of unusual danger, had displayed qualities seldom united in the same individual. It should be borne in mind that a new chapter would be opened in the world's history if on the great theatre of war in America those qualities to which men had ever pointed with scorn should triumph over those which had hitherto been always regarded with admiration. It became an im portant question for consideration, therefore, whether the Government of Mr. Lincoln could conquer its opponents when WI confidence in it had ceased to exist, and when it pursued an enterprise in its capacity to bring which to a successful issue no one had the slightest faith. What better sign, he would ask, of the state of despair and despondency to which it was reduced could be presented than the enlist ment of negro regiments ? After that and the other evi dence which was open to them noble lords on neither side of the house would, he hoped, refuse to concur with the noble earl the leader of the Opposition, with the capitalists of Europe, and with military men generally, in the opinion that the hazard of conquest in America remained no longer matter of doubt. At that moment, he might add, and throughout the war, Great Britain had consuls at the Southern ports; among others, at Mobile and Charleston. Their presence there was necessary to protection of British interests; and the question was coming on for debate in the Southern Confederacy how far consuls would be permit ted to reside in Southern ports who had taken their exequa tur from the Government of Washington. What, then, he would ask, would be the position of this country if, in a few months, she should be compelled by interests and conve nience to adopt the course which self-respect and justice long ago demanded at her hands. The first ground, then, on which Great Britain ought to exercise her power of ac knowledgment was that, unless she meant to withdraw her consuls, honour called upon her to proceed in the course which he advocated. The next ground on which he would rely was that of humanity. His noble friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, in his despatch in reply to Mr. Mason in the autumn, had justly stated that the question which was so much debated on both sides of the Atlantic—the ques tion of the right to secede—could not be determined by foreign Governments ; but the inference which his noble friend had drawn from that proposition was that we ought not to acknowledge the insurgents. In that inference he hoped their lordships would not be disposed to concur, be cause if they did so, they would then, in reality, be pro nouncing it to be their opinion that the insurgents had no right to secede ; while, on the other hand, by acceding to the appeal for recognition, they would be giving no positive de cision on the point in dispute. The new Government of France had, he might further observe, been acknowledged in 1848, but by doing so no opinion as to its title had been pronounced. It could not be denied—and Mr. Davis in his recent Message conspicuously explained—that the Confe deracy had suffered wrongs, perhaps unintentional and un designed, from Great Britain. The French Emperor was deterred from a course which might have served them by the influence of this country. We had forced the Confede rates to burn their prizes on the water, and had done away with the chance of their raising privateers. What was even more serious still, after engaging with the Confederacy by our negotiator to maintain the principles laid down in the Treaty of Paris upon public law, we had not, as regarded the question of blockade, adhered to those principles. Our partiality towards the Northern States had received an il lustration from the despatch of the noble lord dated March 27, 18E2, and which the Government of Washington had given to the world. In that despatch, while manfully re sisting the extortionate demands of Mr. Adams, the noble lord, as a kind of set •off to his austerity, reminded him that allowances had been made to the United States in the ardu ous war in which they were engaged, and that the public law had been liberally interpreted in their favour. Let it be granted that the noble lord was then right in making every allowance to the Government of Washington and liberally interpreting the law of nations in favour of the stronger of two belligerents. Still the inference which he drew was this, that it now rendered necessary a policy of reparation in the shape of a recognition of the Southern States. In his opinion neutrality, so far from being a bar, was a ground of claim to recognition. A further element in the consideration of the question was the security of Canada. It was said by some that whenever the war closed, and in whatever way it closed, Canada would be invaded, If the Northern arms succeeded Canada would be endangered by the drunkenness of victory, and if they failed it would be assailed through the bitterness of anguish. The security of Canada consisted in the danger of attacking it, and it would be far more dangerous for the Northern States to make that attack if they had in their rear a power which was friendly to England. Canada might be safe as long as this great civil war raged, but we had not the power to prevent the close of the war. Other powers would recognise the Confederacy, and peace would be restored. From the moment that separation became inevitable it was obvious we required an ally on the other side of the Atlantic. If the war exhausted itself before we acknowledged the Con federacy, we might be in the humiliating position of finding both belligerents finally estranged, and having to defend Canada against the one and the West Indies against the other. As it appeared to him, the most convincing reason was that this country was bound by duty to acknowledge the Southern States. He would not dwell upon the general and abstract obligation upon neutrals to acknowledge an insur gent Power when the hazards of the contest were exhausted. But in this case there were special circumstances which ought not to be overlooked. The first was the Lancashire dis tress (so long endured and within the last two days meeting with a more strenuous expression)—a distress which wasnot likely to be remedied while the large stock of cotton in Ame rica prevented the investment of money to obtain a supply from otherparts of the world. The Government of Washing ton above all others, considering the pledges it had given, and the debts it had incurred, must find an enormous diffi culty in negotiating with the South. As well might we ex pect a man to perform an amputation on his own person as ask the North to give up their claims on the South. If the statesmen of Washington, before ordering the ad vance across the Potomac, had been able to foresee the disgrace and the sacrifices which they were about to bring on their countrymen, they would certainly have accepted a bloodless peace when it was offered to them. There could be little doubt that the obligations of neutrality, of honour, and good faith would have induced the people of this country to recognise the South long ago had it not been for certain delusions on the subject of negro slavery, which had recently been promul gated. The only issue, however, which the people had really any call to take into their consideration was this, which would be most conducive to the welfare of the negro —separation or reconquest ? It could easily be shown that reconquest would not be favourable to the noble cause with which had so long been associated the names of such men as Wilberforce and Buxton—whose descendants now scorned to connect themselves with the machinery which had been set up for prolonging the war, on one side of the water, by spreading fictions and calumnies on the other. In the event of separation negro bondage must be confined within the limits in which it now existed —there would be no Fugitive Slave Law, and the judgment of the Southern men—hitherto too often inflamed to passion by the violence of the North—would be calmly applied to discover a solution for the question. In the event of recon quest —a servile war, with widespread murder and rapine, must be the inevitable preface. What security had we that the slave trade, to which the American flag had too often been lent, would not be renewed ? It had always been impossible for any British Government to obtain the right of searching s ira US ta pe e e d t i ed ate A l d e l e o ez inceaend vessels ; but when this war b egan it was when the w ar was over but o h u e d h a b d e e h t e oncea r d i r t erumoured Thetha t only other sentiment which could stand in the way of re cognition was a vague belief that the cause of freedom would be promoted by restoration of the ancient state of things. But the reconquest of the. South would take a Coosar or a Napoleon, and it could not be expected that a man of such a character with the army at his back flushed with success would consent peaceably to lay down the immense power which he would then wield. Few men could resist the temptation to take possession of the whole Government. At the time of General M'Clellan's dismissal it was said that he could easily have led his legions to Washington and de clared himself Dictator, and many censured him for not taking that course, Whether the Qoverzuneut would adopt the principle of recognition, or still hesitate as to taking so decided a course, he should not be the less indebted to their lordships for enabling him to show that the neutral Powers had an indisputable title to acknowledge Southern indepen dente, and that until they exercised that title the war in America would never end. (Hear, hear.) Earl RUSSELL—My lords, I suppose there is no member of either house of Parliament who does not wish for a ter mination of a civil war in America. (Hear, hear.) It dis turbs commerce, it interferes with the peace of the world, and it afflicts America herself (hear, hear) ; and if any thing could be usefully, and, I must add, justly done to bring that war to a termination, I repeat there is no member of either house of Parliament, there is no person in the country, who would not gladly see such a consummation. (Hear, hear.) But after having listened to my noble friend, I must confess I remain in the same persuasion as before at the present mement—and I speak only of the present mo ment—that there is nothing this country could do usefully and wisely which would tend to the termination of the hos tilities on the other side of the Atlantic. (Hear, hear.) My noble friend has somewhat mixed different topics, and he has alluded to three different modes of intervention in the affairs of other countries. One, which is the mini mum of interference, that of advice, good offices, and medi ation; another, the mode proposed by my noble friend, that of recognition; and the third, one which we have sometimes resorted to, and which other nations have more frequently had recourse to—that of forcible intervention. My noble friend says, and says truly, that since I had the honour of addressing the house last summer there has been some divergence between the views of the Government of this country and that of the Emperor of the French. The Government of the Emperor of the French canceived that it might tend to the termination of the war if three Powers— France, Great Britain, and Russia —were to propose a sus pension of arms with a view of negotiation between the two belligerents. Her Majesty's Government, after carefully examining that proposition, came to the conclusion that its adoption by us would not be likely to lead to its acceptance by the Government of the United States of America ; while, by causing irritation, it would not increase but dimi nish the chances of our teeing a termination of the con test. The French Government has proceeded in accord ance with its views, and has actually proposed to the Go vernment of the United rotates to negotiate with the Southern States. That proposition has not been adopted ; and I think your lordships will judge from what has hap pened with reference to the proposals of France, and with reference to suggestions thrown out in other countries, that any interference on the part of this country would only have tended to aggravate the evils of the present lamentable state of affairs in America. (Hear, hear.) It does not appear at the present moment that this contest would be likely to be terminated by an offer of our good offices. I say at the present moment, because it is impossible to say that, in the course of events, a time may not come when both the contending parties would be desirous of the good offices or wise counsels of friendly Powers. Ido not see any pro bability of that at this moment, but I wish to guard myself against being supposed to speak positively of the future. (Hear, hear.) We come, then, to the course proposed by my noble friend—namely, that of recognition. My noble friend alluded to several cases—not very happy illustrations of his argument, I think—in which the United States of America have recognised insurgent countries which they believed likely to be able to maintain their independence. One was the revolted State of Hungary, whose independence had sunk like the island in the Mediterranean. It had disap peared before the despatch. reached Vienna by which the United States recognised it. Another instance referred to by my noble friend scarcely comes within the category, though it has been quoted by a gentleman who has written some very able letters under the title of " Historicus"—l mean the recognition of the United States themselves by France two years after the war with this country had be gun. If anyone will examine that precedent, and the im portant documents which have lately come to light, he will see that the French monarchy of the day had, most unfor tunately for itself, been exciting democratic passions in America, and had been endeavouring to raise opposition there to the Government of Great Britain. It had prepared means of concert with those States; and even in the letter, so courteous in appearance, but so exceedingly hostile and bitter in its spirit, written by the French ambassador, it was stated that the French Government had not only made a treaty of commerce with the United States, but further, that they had a right to carry that treaty into effect, if necessary, even by force. This was a threat to take part in the war between Great Britain and her revolted colonies. But we know that besides this open threat there was a secret treaty signed, by which France lent her support to the revolted provinces, and the opposition of this country, which was then as decided as ever any opposition was, agreed that the threat was one of war, and that by war only could it be met, This was not a case of recognition but a case of interference. It was, I think, a case of most unjus tifiable interference, an interference for the purpose of spreading those democratic principles, which afterwards re acted on France, and produced so many excesses and crime. during the revolution. Well, then, with regard to the other cases to which my noble friend has alluded, those of Por tugal and Holland, were cases of forcible intervention. There is hardly more than one case in which the question was limited to simple recognition,—that was the war carried on between Spain and her revolted colonies, and went on from 1808 to 1822 or 1828 without any proposal for a recognition. This case is one worthy of the attention of your lordships, because it was illustrated by the mild wisdom of Lord Lans downe, by the profound research of Sir James Mackintosh, and by the dazzling genius of Canning. We have there fore:upon this question of recognition as much light as can possibly be thrown upon any subject. Now I beg to refer your lordships to the words of Lord Lansdowne. He was zealous for the recognition of the South American Pro vinces, he thought it would be a great advantage to this country to recognise them, and he was entirely free from any trammels of office or any obligation to consult the interests of the Minister of the day. But with that wisdom and forbearance which characterised every act of his public life—(hear, hear)—he stated that the first thing to be considered was the right, and he went on thus : —" It will be my duty this night to point out to your lordships the great advantages which may result from the establishment of South American independence. I hope I shall never stand up in this house to recommend your lordships to adopt any course of policy inconsistent with those principles of right which are paramount to all expe diency, and which compose that great law of nations any departure from which, to answer a selfish and ambitious policy, never fails to recoil upon its authors," (Hear, hear.) These are words upon which this house may well reflect —(hear)—and we may well consider upon what grounds Lord Lansdowne founded the views which I have just brought under the notice of your lordships. In the first place, he stated it was necessary that a country which re quired to be recognised should had established its inde• pendence. In the next plaoo, that it should be able to main tain that independence for the future ; and lastly, that it should be able to carry on with all foreign nations those re • lations of peace and amity which form the general interna tional law of the world. Now, examine the state of the re volted provinces of Spain at that time, as Sir James Mackin tosh and Mr. Canning did. We find that the greater part of South America had been some 12 or 14 years entirely free from the presence of Spanish armies. We find that with regard to those provinces in which this was not absolutely the case—namely, Mexico, where Vera Cruz alone was oc cupied by a Spanish garrison, and Peru, where there were 4,000 or 5,000 Spanish troops, although the cause of Spain seemed hopeless, it was agreed that their recog nition should be deferred, and that only in the case of Buenos Ayres and those parts of South America which had clearly and for a number of years established their independence would it be right for Great Britain to proceed to the step of recognition ? Besides this, Mr. Can ning took care to inform the Spanish Minister that such recognition would not be very long delayed, that if the Spanish Government wished to recognise them they ought to take that step, and that Great Britain was willing to give time before proceeding to recognise them herself. (Hear.) Well, here is a great precedent for our consideration—here is a step taken by the Government of the day after consider able care and examination; here is a course recommended by the Opposition of the day, not in any harsh spirit, but notwithstanding the conviction which this country gene rally entertained that the cause of Spain was hopeless and that the independence of those provinces was firmly estab lished. Well, now, if we look to the present position of North America and compare with it that of the States of which Lord Lansdowne spoke, we find that the war in North America is still carried on with the utmost vigour—l had almost said with the utmost fury, We find some of those provinces which were the first to proclaim their indepen dence --a great part of Louisianna, New Orleans, and the banks of the Mississippi, occupied by the Federal armies. There are very considerable Federal armies menacing cities of the Confeieration, such as Charleston and Savannah. So that no man can say it is a case of hopeless war. For my own part, and speaking according to my limited vision, I do not believe those efforts of the Federals will be success ful, But no man can say that the war is finally over, or that the independence of the Southern States is establishei. (Hear.) Well, then, what is the present state of the ease ? Although great efforts have been made in vain, the great Federal Republic seems unwilling to accept the decision of events. So far from it, we find the last acts of the Congress which has just expired are to place, by conscription, every man fit to carry arms at the disposal of the President of the United States, and to vote sums of money amounting to no less than £180,000,000 sterling for the purpose of carrying on the war. Well, then, in this state of affairs, I should say that, looking to the question of right, it would not be a friendly act towards the United States, it would not be to fulfil our obligations to a country with which we have long maintained relations of peace and amity—a great country, which says it can still carry on the war—it would, I say, be a failure of friendship on our part if at this moment we were to interpose and recognise the Southern States. I have endeavoured to guard myself by saying that I speak new with reference to the present aspect of affairs. I hardly know any moment in which my noble friend could have brought forward his motion with less encouragement from events. It may turn out that these immense efforts which are being made shall be made in vain; that the spirit of the South is unconquerable as their determination never to be united again with the Northern States is final and irrevocable, and that a time may come when the duty of this country will be totally different from what it is at THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH 24, 1863. the present moment. All I maintain is, that it is our duly at present to stand still, and not to proceed to an act so definite, so positive—and an act so unfriendly to the United States as that of the recognition of the South. (Hear.) My noble fi iend spoke of various topics--of danger of Canada being attacked by the Northern Republic, and of the West Indies being attacked by the Southern. My lords, I cannot follow my noble friend into these suppositions. Ido not venture to say what may be the future course of events. I confine myself to that which I think to be our duty now —(hear, hear)—which I think is right, and if that be so we must be content in future days to meet with future dangers, and it will not enfeeble our arms if we have it in our power to reflect that we have never failed in our obligations to those which have been great States in peace and amity with us, and that it has not been through any fault of ours that a'great affliction has fallen on them. (Cheers.) Well, my lords, I know not that there is anything in what my noble friend has said to-night which would make it necessary for me to go much further into this question, but at the same time there were parts of his speech in which he referred to former occasions and former instances of it, terference on our part, as if my noble friend and some of those who looked forward to his motion to -night expected that there should be some interference on our part in this war. Now, I wish to say only a few words upon that which we have done infor mer days by way of intervention. We, too, like other States, have at times taken upon us to intervene. We inter fered in the case of Holland to save her from the religious tyranny and political despotism of Philip 11. That contest was hallowed by the blood of Sir Philip Sydney, and by the part we took we contributed to her independence. In an other case—the case of Portugal —we interfered. Charles 1., Cromwell, Charles 11., all agreed in that interference. We declared ourselves ready to send 10,000 men to the aid of the new Government of Portugal, and we helped the Portu guese to relieve themselves from the Spanish tyranny under which they groaned, and to establish the independence of their State. In more recent times, when Greece endea voured to establish her independence, we aided her in her contest with Turkey; we rescued her from the destruction which threatened her, and helped her to found a free and in dependent monarchy. Take the case of Belgium again. When the Belgians declared that they were unable to re main under the Government of Holland, in accordance with the Treaty of Vienna, we interfered by force, in con junction with France, and the wise and happy arrange ment was made by which the freedom of Belgium was se cured. Now, my lords, in all these instances, whether the intervention was carried on by our ancestors or in our own times, there is nothing of which an Englishman need be ashamed. (Hear, hear.) If we have taken part in inlerven• tions, it has been in behalf of the independence, freedom, and welfare of a great portion of mankind. I should be sorry indeed if there should be any intervention on the part of this country which could bear another character. (Cheers.) I trust that this will not be the case, and that no interests, deeply as they may affect us—interests which imply the wellbeing of a great portion of our people, but interests which may affect also the freedom and happiness of other parts of the globe—will induce us to set an example different from that of our ancestors, but that when we are bound to interfere it will be an interference in the cause of liberty and to promote the freedom of mankind, as we have hitherto done in such cases. (Hear.) It is with this conviction that I have addressed these few remarks as to what has been done by this country in former days, and I trust that, with regard to this civil war in America, we may be able to con tinue our impartial and neutral course. Depend upon it, my lords, that if that war is to cease, it is far better it should cease by a conviction, both on the part of the North and the South, that they can never live again happily as one com munity and one republic, and that the termination of hosti lities can never be brought about by the advice, the media tion, or the interference of any European Power. (Cheers.) I repeat I have spoken only of the duty of the Government at the present time, and I trust that there will now be no further debate on this subject. (Loud cheers.) After a few words from Lord STRATHEDEN the subject dropped. SALMON EXPORTATION BILL. On the report of amendments to this bill, The Earl of DALHOUSIE proposed an amendment pro hibiting (as was understood) the importation of foreign salmon during the close season. Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY opposed the amend ment, and thought that the bill was sufficiently stringent as it stood. their lordships divided—for the clause — Contents Non -contents Majority against the amendment RAILWAY EXTENSIONS. GREENWICH OBSERVATORY. Lord TORRINGTON briefly called the attention of the house to the London, Chatham, and Dover Railway Bill No. land its proposed interference with Greenwich Park and the Observatory at Greenwich ; and asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether that Department had made a report upon the bill to the Board of Trade. The Duke of SOMERSET said the Admiralty had writ ten to the Board of Trade, forwarding a report which was received from the Astronomer Royal in reference to the bill referred to by the noble lord. It was pointed out by the Astronomer Royal that the proposed site of the railway lay within I,oooft. of the Observatory, and that if its course pissed above ground the concussion of the air thereby pro duced would be very injurious to any observation which might be taken ; but that danger was of course much les sened by the fact that trains would pass through a tunnel at that point. It was proposed that experiments should be made during the Easter recess near railroads already in existence for the purpose of discovering what effect would be produced by the subterraneous passage of trains upon astronomical instruments placed within 1,000 ft., and having thus gained information with regard to the extent of the tremor of the earth he should, if necessary, move an instruc tion to the committee, to whom the bill would be referred after Easter. He should be sorry to interfere unnecessarily with a railway in which a large number of the inhabitants of Greenwich took a great interest; and on the other hand, it was necessary to see that no damage resulted from works in connection with any private enterprise to an institution so valuable as Greenwich Observatory. (Hear.) CONSOLIDATED FUND (£10,000,000) BILL. This bill went through committee. Their lordships adjourned at 25 minutes to 8 o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS—Last Evening. The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock. The following bills were read a third time and passed : Denbigh Water, London and North Western and Lanca shire and Yorkshire Railway Companies, Market liar borough and Loughborough Road, Queen's Road (Bat tersea) Extension, St. Asaph Road, and South Stafford shire Railway. _ _ The following bills were considered and ordered to be read a third time :—Aberystwith and Welsh Coast Rail way (by the promoters), Accrington Gas and Water, Caledonian Railway t'Bredisholla Deviation), Caledonian Railway (Carstairs and Dolphinton Branch) Central Wales Extension Railway, Cockermouth and Workington Railway; Cockermouth, Keswick, and Penrith Railway ; Knighton and Central Wales Railway Companies, Leyland and Far• ington Gas, Mid Wales Railway (Branch, &c.), Newport Pagnell Railway, North Bierley Gas, North Eastern Rail way (Newcastle and Starbeck Branches) ; and Penarth Harbour, Dock, and Railway. PETITIONS. By Mr. BRADY, from building societies at Liverpool, praying for a modification in the fire insurance duty; Sir DE LACY EVANS from inhabitants of Westminster, Mr. No/taus fr.,m Abingdon, and Mr. Cox from a building society in Bloomsbury to the like effect ; Mr. WHALLEY against the Prison Ministers' Bill ; also, by an HoN. MEMBER from the Presbytery of Stirling, to the like effect; by Mr. COBDEN, from five religious deno minations in Rochdale, against the sale of intoxicating liqucrr on the Sabbath; Alderman SALovrarrs and an Hon. Mem ber for Stockport, to the like effect, by Sir M. RIDLEY, from grocers of Alnwick, praying for a reduction of the tea duty to ls. per lb. ; Sir B. BRIDGES, from grocers at Rams gate, and Mr. Noßnis, from Abingdon, to the same effect; Mr. LONGFIELD, four petitions, in favour of the Irish Fisheries Bill. THE RIVER SHANNON. not without hope that the two Governments may be enabled to come to an undeNtanding in the m9tter. THE BUDGET. The CH. NCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER gave notice that he intended to bring forward the financial statement of the Government on Thursday, the 16th of April, that being the second Government day after the recess; it nut being usual, on account of the pressure of business, to submit the financial statement of the Govern ment on the first Government day after the usual Easter recess. (Hear, hear.) TOBACCO DUTIES BILL. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER also inti mated that, in the event of this bill being reported this evening, as he apprehended it would be, he should ask leave to move the third reading at half-past four to•morrow, so that the bill might be sent up to the House of Lords and passed into law before the Easter holidays. (Hear, hear.) THE GRANT TO THE VOLUNTEERS. In reply to Captain GRAY, Sir G. LEWIS intimated that the conditions on which the grant agreed to by the house would be allowed to volun teer corps were in a forward state, and would very shortly be laid before the public. GREECE—PERSONAL EXPLANATION. Mr. B. COCII LUNE said some observations which he had made in the debate the other night on the affairs of Greece had, it appeared, given offence to the friends of Mr. Scarlett. He wished therefore to state that during the recent events Mr. Scarlett had been placed in a position of great difficulty, and had shown greet zeal, discretion, and judgment in the discharge of his duties. It was also the opinion of the Greek gentlemen with whom he had been acting that both Mr. Scarlett and Mr. Elliot had by their appropriate conduct added very muchito the admirable conduct exhibited by the Greeks during the recent events. (Hear.) POLAND. Mr. HENNESSY rose to ask a question of the First Lord of the Treasury as to the nature of the obligations with respect to Poland involved in the Treaty of Vienna. The hon. gentleman referred at some length to the corres pondence between the noble lord at the head of the Govern ment and Lord Heytesbury in 1831, on the affairs of Poland, iu whiuh. the uvblo Lou). (rehneietoo) intimated he had great reliance in the " benevolent intentions" of the Czar. The time had long gone by when he (Mr. Hennessy) or others could repose any confidence whatever in those " benevolent intentions." The treaty of Vienna clearly implied that Great Britain would be justified in using warlike means to enforce the provisions of that treaty, so far as Poland was concerned, in the event of moral means having utterly failed, as they had. Since the debate a few nights ago it did not appear that the Government had done anything ; indeed they had been treated with great forbearance by the house. Since the 27th of February the insurrection in Poland had greatly extended, and he knew from authentic sources that many of the statements put forth by the newspapers with respect to the disasters that had attended the insurgents were utterly devoid of truth. Colonel FRENCH a;lreciiheSecretary to the Treasury when Mr. Baternan's report on the river Shannon would be laid before the house ? Mr. F. FEEL replied that the report in question had not been delivered to the Treasury. When the report was in the hands of the Government, he should lose no time in laying it on the table of the house. THE INNISKILLEN DRAGOONS. Captain AItCHDALL asked the Secretary of State for War whether the attention of the War Department, or of his Royal Highness the Commander-in-Chief, had been called to a recent court martial held on the Paymaster of the Inniskillen Dragoons; and to the remarks of the Commander-in -Chief in India on the proceed ings of s id court martial, and on the state of the regiment; also to certain allegations which had been made in the public press and elsewhere as to the confinement in close arrest, and death of Regimental Sergeant Major Lilley, of the above regiment; whether any inquiry had taken place, and what had been the result of such inquiry? It appeared, he added, that the death of his sergeant major arose from an excessive use of ardent spirits rather than from confinement. Sir G. C. LEWIS replied that the attention of his Royal Highness the Commander-in-Chief had been directed to the case to which the hon. and gallant member had referred. A special report had seen called for. This report had very recently been received. As yet, however, the War-office had not come to any decision upon it, CONVENTION WITH THE UNITED STATES. Mr. S. FITZGERALD asked it her Majesty's Govern- ment had accepted, or were prepared to accept, the propo sal, stated by President Lincoln in his annual Message to have been made . to them by his direction, respecting the establishment of a convention between this country and the Government of the United States, in order to examine and adjust complaints of the violation of neutral rights ? Lord PAL ME R STO N—Mr. Speaker, communications have passed between the two Governments with regard to making such an arrasgement. Her Majesty's Government have no objection to the principle on which the convention is proposed to be conducted, but difficulties have arisen in regard to details, and have not yet been renewed, but I am 1861-2, It was not wise in time of peace to go on increasing these warlike establishments. The hon. member complained also that no satisfactory balance sheet was ever furnished, so that their cost, which was enormous, was never reallyknown. Gen. PEEL expressed his regret that a regular debtor and creditor account was not furnished with regard to these establishments. With respect to the large rifled guns now coming into use, ho believed the last report of the number manufactured was up to March, 1862, at which time the number was 1,935, of which about one-third were heavy guns of 1101bs. and upwards. It was evident from the ex periments made within the last few days that guns of larger calibre must soon be made, and he should like to see (if there was no objection to it) some return laid before the house of the probable number of guns that would be required for the defence of the whole country. There might be a good objection to stating the precise armament of a particular fortification, but he did not see any inconvenience in such a general return. It was clear there must be a large increase next year for those heavy guns. Mr. NEWDEGATE complained that the accounts had never but once been laid before the house in the form ordered by the resolution framed upon the report of the small arms committee. Sir M. PETO hoped that a stop would be put to the ex pensive and unsatisfactory system of Government becoming their own manufacturers in all departments, when what they require could he better supplied by the numerous re • spectable contractors of this large country. At all events, he trusted that the Government would take proper precau tions against a repetition of what had happened in regard to the Armstrong gun manufactories. Immense sums of money had been supplied by the nation to establish them, and Sir William Armstrong had been appointed to super intend them, and it was supposed that the Government were prepared to manufacture all the rifled artillery that would be required. All at once Sir William Armstrong retired ; the Government paid him a large sum for his machinery ; and, being well supplied with plant and mate rials, he had started afresh, at the head of an establishment capable probably of making guns for all the world. (Hear.) With respect to the reduction in the vote for the present year, he admitted it was considerable, but he quite agreed that there must evidently be a large increase for the next year. T-Te hoped tho hen- member would divide the home upon the motion. Sir F. SMITH was of opinion that the vote might be safely reduce I by the amount mentioned, but thought it would be very inconvenient for the Government to have to trust to private trade for everything it wanted. That re mark was especially applicable to gunnery, which private traders were not in the habit of supplying. Sir G. C. LEWIS said there were two reductions in the present year of £433,000 and £698,000 ; but, as regarded the future, he could not undertake to furnish estimates for years which had not yet arrived. Ho felt confident that, for the amount he had named, adequate provision would be made for the present year in guns and stores, and that sufficient would be left in the magazines to prevent any risk of the service being crippled. He did not admit the justice of those statements which went to show that better warlike Viscount PALMERSTON—Th e h on . mem b er gave stores could be obtained f rom con t ractors than from the establishments at Woolwich a n d e l sew h ere. From all he notice of a question very sh or t an d ver y s i mp l e , b ut h e did could learn on the subject, he arrived a t th e conc l us i on that not give notice of his int e nti on t o go i n t o a di sser t at i on as men of the highest skill were at the h ea d o f th e severa l to the relative prospects in P o l an d o f th e R uss i an army an d those who were in resistance to th a t arm y. I w ill not fol- factories, and that under no other system could th e coun t ry be better or more economically supplied. H e was sa ti s fi e d low him throughout th a t di sser t at i on, nor say anything that no advantage would ar i se f rom g i v i ng u p th e manu facture will imply an opini on as t o th e pro b a bl e resu l t of that facture of projectiles, shot an d s h e ll s , an d o f i ron or d nance contest. Everybody h as an equa l means o f j u d g i ng upon the subject. Wh en th e h on , gen tl eman on t h e f ormer occa- in the Government factori e s. With regar d t o th e objec tion of the hon. membe r f or G res h am (Si r H . Will oug hb y ) sion mooted the qu es ti on , as t o th e o bli gat i ons o f t h e treaty that the accounts were no t we ll k ep t, h owever t h at of Vienna, I und ers t oo d hi m as i mp l y i ng t h ere was in the might have been the cas e i n f ormer years, th e objec treaty of Vienna an o bli ga ti on on t h e part o f G reat Britain tion no longer applied, for th e accoun t s were as f u ll an d to make war to interfere forcibly i n th e a ff a i rs o f Poland, complete as could be desired. It was al so as k e d w h a t seen - My ans wer was , th a t t h ere was no such obligation. There is a right, if y ou see fit t o exerc i se it ; b ut there is no en- rity there was for the stores, to whi c h h e rep li e d th at each gagement entered int o by G rea t B r it a i n b y t h at treaty person was chargeable with the articles f urn i s h e d t o hi m, and such person was called to account for every article in which imposes the obligation of interfering by force to give his possession ; and every year a survey was held at all the her interpretation to the terms of the arrangement of that stations, in order to ascertain the condition of the stores. In treaty. To that interpretation I entirely adhere. I main- addtion to this, every fifth year stock was taken,when every tale that this is the just exposition of the effect of that single article was counted; and this rule applied to foreign treaty. I said that where a treaty between different Powers stations as well as to those in the United Kingdom, and he does not contain an express stipulation to guarantee, on the was prepared to give an account, for example, of every arti part of any or all of these Powers, any particular arrange- cle in store in the lonian Islands, He came lastly to the ment established by the treaty, there is a right in each of the proposal for reducing the vote by the sum of £2,000 in the contracting parties to enforce the arrangement if it thinks column of " Establishments," upon the fact of the office of fit, but there is no obligation, unless it is expressly stipu- Sir Wm, Armstrong being vacant; but it did not follow, fated. But the hon. member changes his ground. He because an office was vacated, that there was to be economy talks now of moral obligation ; and, instead of its being a on that account. At the same time, he admitted that some moral obligation to interfere by force of arms, he, by the reduction could be made, and he had a plan under conside quotation he has made from a despatch of mine toLord Hey- ration which he trusted would effect a saving ; and he also tesbury, shows that the interposition which is there contained contemplated the appointment of a military man as an in was a totally different matter from that which he urged on a spector of artillery at Woolwich. He trusted that after this former occasion. He quotes a despatch from myself to Lord explanation the hon. member would not press the small re- Heytesbury, in which I say, " the insurrection being over, duction. and the Russian Government having re-established its Sir J. FERGUSSON thought, notwithstanding the ex authority in Poland, his Majesty's Government in planation of the right hon. gentleman, the committee would fulfilment of the obligations contracted by them by the be of opinion that they had no real control over the estimates treaty of Vienna, would proceed to represent in friendly relating to these departments. The right hon. gentleman terms to the Emperor of Russia considerations as to the had adverted to the large reduction in stores, but this fact arrangements which he would make upon the establishment proved that the vote of last year must have been greatly in of a temporary Government in Poland." That is a you excess of the requirements of the country. The committee different obligation to what I understood the hon. gentle- might be well assured that if this proposition of the right man to argue on a former occasion. That obligation was hon. gentleman was adopted, the system of inspection would fulfilled in the sense in which it was quoted, because the cost a vast deal more than £2,000 a year. British Government did on that occasion make friendly re- Mr. MONSELL said that the proposition of the right presentations on behalf of the Poles to the Emperor of hon. gentleman was an attempt to make a complete re- Russia, urging what they thought was fitting for the Em- volution in the system adopted in the manufacturing peror to do, both with regard to the obligations he had con- establishments in 1855. Had that system failed ?or had it tracted by the treaty, and with regard to what was just and been, in the production of articles against which no com right towards the Poles themselves. Now in that sense I plaint had been or could be made, a complete success? accept the interpretation of the hon. member, and when the He ventured to affirm that it had been a success, and that proper time comes to lay before this house the papers show- nothing could be more absurd and monstrous than to change ing what has been done and what is doing, the house will a system which had worked so well. Under those circum see that, so far as any obligation lies on the British Govern- stances, he asked the committee to pause before they cone ment to make a friendly represent a ti on t o th e E mperor of cursed in the - c h ange . Russia on behalf of the Poles, that has been fulfilled. Now, Colonel DUNNE differed totally from the last speaker with regard to the question as to the communications going as to t h e working of the present system. The Government on between the French Government and the Government were doing well to reverse a policy which had not worked of her Majesty with respect to the manner in which any well during the Crimean war. representation shall be made, lam sure the house will feel Sir G. C. LE WIS said nothing had surprised him so that it would not be useful, if it were fitting, to enter into much as that his modest proposal with respect to an alte details as to that which is now passing on that subject. But ration at Woolwich should have met with condemnation when the hon. member reproaches us—and me especially— in that house. That it should have been condemned by with not having, during the Crimean war, consented to the heads of the department of Woolwich Seemed perfectly agree to a proposal—if such a proposal had been m a d e —t o natural; but that hon. gentleman who had the control of transfer the seat of operations from the Crimea to Poland, the public purse should meet with censure a proposal for a I think the decision of her Majesty's Government was the simple inspection of the articles pr oduced in Government only rational and sensible decision we could have come to. factories at Woolwich did seem astonishing. With regard The war began upon a Turkish question ; the war began for to the carriage and laboratory departments, the system was the purpose of preserving Turkey from invasion and attack that the persons who were charged with the conduct of by Russia. We were, in conjunction with the French Go- those establishments inspected the produceof their own vernment, engaged in securing th e i n d epen d ence of Turkey. manufactories. Though h e was not The war began upon a quar re l b e t ween t h e F rench and Rus- prepared to say that sians about a Turkish matt er . Th e F renc h b egan the qnarrel any serious inconveni ence h a d ar i sen, t h e committee must see that it was a sy s t em w hi c h did not contain within itself in which the war o r i g i na t e d, t h ere f ore F rance was not the the elements of p er f ec t con t ro l—(h ear)—and that a time party enti lea to a s k us , b e f ore th at security had been ob- might arrive when ser i ous prac ti ca l i nconvenienience might tained, to relinqui s h a common en t erpr i se and to embark in occur. (Hear.) 'With regard to the gu n f ac t ory h e be another undertakin g w hi c h was t o t a ll y unconnecte d with lieved there had been some i mper f ec t external inspection, the origin and cau se o f th e war . I con t en d , t h ere f ore, that but it had amount e d t o very little. His proposition was we acted wisely and p ro p er ly i n say i ng , "L e t us accom- not a revolution suc h as th e h on . gent l eman had described, i plish what we h ave b egun , name l y , th e protec ti on o f T ur- key, and then let us see w h e th er th ere i s any groun d for nor did it cont em pl a t e an a dditi ona l expense o f £30 , 000 or £40,000. All he ask e d was t o b e a ll owe d t o t a k e £2,000 a opening a fresh dispute with R uss i a as t o o th er an d wholly year saved by the resignation of Sir William Armstrong, distinct matters." I say that upon that occasion we were and he would undertake that the whole of that sum should justified in the course we pursued of continuing what we not be exhausted by the system of inspection which he had begun, instead of suspending operations in order to em- proposed. He trusted therefore that the committee would bark in a totally different matter. With regard to the still support the original proposal. earlier period of 1831, there were at that time considerations which induced us to decline to ent er i n t o o bli ga ti ons which After a few words in reply from Sir 11. WILLOUG HBY, might lead to very se r io us diffi cu lti es b e t ween t hi s country the committee divided, and Russia. We did ma k e th e th e representat i ons w hi c h The numbers for the am en d ment being 45 Against it the hon. member ha s c it e d, an d a lth oug h, un f ortuna t e l y , 941 ajority they were not att en d e d w ith t h e e ff ect we w i s h e d , we did M —49 all that we could dipl oma ti ca lly d o ; an d I b eg th e h ouse to The vote was then agreed to. bear in mind that the hon. gentl eman now con fi nes hi s i n - . ngs, exclusive of the manufacturing departments. The next vote was one of £810,241 for works and buil.l- terpretation of the treaty of -Vienna to this—that we are i under an obligation, as far as Poland is conce rne d, t o i n t er - On this being p ro p ose d, fere diplomatically on the part of the Poles. lam convinced Mr. CHILDERS as k e d f or exp l anat i on on t h e su bj ect of that we have done our duty, a n d I t rus t th a t any e ff ort we the new barracks at Ch e l sea , f or w hi c h a vote o f £ 4 7 ,000 have made will be found t o b e a tt en d e d w ith f avoura bl e re- was asked this year. Th e h on , gen tl eman a l so comp l a i ned sulfa to the interests of th e p eo pl e o f P o l an d, of the further ch arge o f £22,000 f or C o l c h ester Barracks, when, both last y ear an d th e year b e f ore , th e h ouse had INFANTRY AND CAVALRY OFFICERS. been assured that nothi ng more wou ld b e required. He On the motion for goi ng i n t o comm itt ee o f supp l y, Colonel NORTH moved that the house, t o - morrow , re- also made a simila r c om pl a i n t i n regar d t o th e new works at Gibraltar and Malta. The extra expen se m i g ht possibly solve itself into a committee to consid er an h um bl e address be necessary, but some explanation ought t o b e g i ven, to be presented to her Majesty, praying th a t s h e w ill be showing what the money was wanted for, (Hear, hear.) graciously pleased to give directions that the same com- Colonel NORTH complained of the dreadful state of the mand pay shall be granted to officers commanding regi- barracks at Eastbourne, where there was a building that merits of cavalry as is now given to officers commanding had cost £5,000 fitted up for 130 men, without closets or regiments of infantry, conveniences of any kind, and the arrangements for the Sir G. C. LEWIS admitted th a t the re was an i nequa lity g night were so disgusting that he would not trust himself to in the pay, and promised to rectify it in next year's votes. I describe them. The motion was therefore withdrawn. Mr. WILLIAMS spoke of the extravagant items for new CHINA. works in the colonies, especially in Australia, Ceylon, and the Mauritius. Col. SYKES asked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the statement a General Burgo - Sir F. SMITH called attention generally to the loose way in which the War Department were going on, spending vine, respecting the causes of the late mutiny of the Chinese drilled troops, published in the Friend of China of large sums in unnecessary works, such as the £lO,OOO for the 17th January, 1863, had been received at the Foreign - refacing the masonry of the Tower ditch wall (a fortress of f ice; together with the protest of all his officers, 45 in now almost useless for anything but a store shed), and number, against the attempt of the Chinese authorities to g i v i ng no satisfactory explanations to the hou se . obtain his head by the offer of 50,000 taels, or for his secret Sir 11. STRACEY adverted to the necessity of making apprehension, and threatening to resign if he was mur- some provision for the defence of the roadsteads of Great dered ? Yarmouth, and moved that Great Yarmouth should be Mr. LAYARD could give no other answer than that of included among the great commercial harbours of th e the other evening. It appeared that greatly exaggerated country. statements had reached this country. For instance, he Mr. MASSEY ruled that the motion could not be put, as never could late horrible believe cre tba of rebels .h t Englis o (Hear, hear,)fficers were present at a i t was virtually a motion for increasing the estimate. The house then went into committee on the Sir G. 0. LEWIS said, i n answer t o t h e quest i on of the hon. member for Maidstone as to the excess in the expen- ARMY ESTIMATES. diture over the estimates for barracks, he could enly give, The first vote proposed was a suns of £956,365 for the as a general reply, that it unfortunately happened estimates manufacturing departments, and for the manufacture of were not unfrequently inaccurate, and especially when these warlike stores, to which an amendment was moved by estimates referred to buildings in which changes of inten -I'rH. S WILLOUGHBY, that th e vote b e reduced by the tion often occurred, and consequ e ntly c h anges o f p l an ; b ut , sum of £2,000, being the amount of the salary at the dis- he could assure his hon. friend there was no intention to posal of the committee from the resignation of Sir William r deceive with regard to the barracks at Chelsea. As to the Armstrong. If Sir William Armstrong had not resigned t appropriation of Worley Barracks, they had been converted he should have moved this reduction, because it was a into the Indian depot. As to the fortifications at Halifax wise and reasonable one, and also with a view to call the and St. John's, they were rendered necessary by imperial attention of the committee to the costly nature of these considerations. With reference to the vote for the Matiri- establishments. Th e h on. member proceeded to show tins, he admitted he stated last year that no further vote that during th e l ast n i ne years the cost of the menu- would be required ; but he learned from Sir John Burgoyne facturing establi s h men t s h a d increased from £15,500 to that the works wore not completed, and he had accordingly something like £30,000 a year. H e moved this reduction to apply for £15,000 now, and would have to ask for a fur. also on the groun d t h at it was expedient to limit the range ther vote of £34,000. of these establishments, and go back to the expenditure of M r . BAXTER comp l a i ne d o f th e p ractice of votin I t money for colonial fortifications, and urged that in the case of self-governed colonies, in particular, the cost should be borne by themselves. He moved the reduction of the vote by £lO,OOO on that account. Mr. HALIBUILTON said that most hon. members had heard of Paganini and his wonderful fiddle; it had only one string, but on it he played many tunes, The hon. member for Montrose was more fortunate, for the Scotch fiddle be was so fond of schitching—(oh, oh, and laughter) —had two strings—subsidies to steamers and colonial forti fications. He played upon them every session; but the fact was that some of the colonies he mentioned had no for tifications at all. He thought it ill-advised that such dis cussions should be repeated every year. Mr. A. MILLS should vote for the motion of his hon. friend the member for Montrose. They had spent two millions upon the fortifications of Bermuda, and they never had a force there sufficient to resist the attack of two French frigates. They had no power to man the for tifications of the colonies, and insufficiently manned fortifi cations were only traps. Their navy was the'only proper defence for the colonies, Mr. DODSON opposed the motion. He agreed that England should trust to her naval supremacy for the protec tion of her colonies, but fortified places in the colonies were absolutely necessary for the use of the navy to retire to for provisions, coals, and repairs. (Hear, hear.) Colonel NO WM opposed the reduction. Sir G. C. LEWIS said the vote had been set down by the , Government at the very lowest possible sum which was likely to be sufficient for the defence of the places without being extravagant. He went through the various items to show how small they were separately. After a few words from Mr. Childers, Mr. Baxter, and Mr. Butt, the committee divided— For the reduction of the vote Against it Majority The vote was then agreed to. On the vote of £172,201 for military education, Col. NORTH called attention to the system of marks adopted at Sandhurst for good conduct. He contended that those marks ought to take precedence of all other marks on examinations, and fi h n 1 d bo than taken into account. Sir G. C. LEWIS said there was a difficulty in giving good conduct marks a proper examination value, but he would take the matter into his consideration. After some discussion on several items contained in the aggregate sum, the vote was agreed to. The vote of £85,441 for surveys of the United Kingdom and topographical de partment was agreed to, as was also the vote of £88,135 for miscellaneous services. Sir J. TRELAWNY wished to know what was the rule with respect to the appointment of staff officers. Sir G. C. LEWIS said that the rule was that staff officers should only be appointed for five years. There were only three officers on the staff who had not been re-appointed if they remained on the staff more than five years, one of whom was the commander-in-chief. The vote was agreed to. The following votes were also agreed to : £25,933, rewards for military services ; £72,782, pay of general officers ; £464,895, pry of reduced and retired officers; £172,157, widows' pensions and compassionate allowances ; £32,843, pensions and allowances to wounded officers ; £33, 776 in pensions; and £1,142,702 out-pensions, On a vote of £144,964 for superannuation allowances, After a few words from Col. Dowrin and Sir G. C,LEwis the vote was agreed to. The vote for £32,786 for the disembodied militia was then agreed to and the house resumed. SUPPLY. On the motion that the report be received, Sir J. FERGUSSON remarked that when the army esti mates were brought up, the right hon. gentleman (Sir G. C. Lewis) had stated that there were but 40,000 bayonets in the country for the defence of the whole kingdom. The embodied militia, yeomanry, and volunteers naturally felt that that remark was a sort of slur upon their efficiency. Sir G. C. LEWIS that ho had said—but, if he had not, he meant to have said—that he was only referring to the regular army. He was sure the house would acquit him of any intentional disrespect to those most useful bodies of men. (Hear.) MARINE MUTINY BILL. The house then went into committee on this bill. Mr. WHITE moved that the 28th clause be expunged. The committee divided— For the clause 86 Against 31 Majority.... —ss Mr. COX then moved that clause 39 be omitted. The committee divided— For the clause Against Majority for the clause .. —7s The bill then passed through committee. MUTINY BILL. This bill was read a third time. TOBACCO DUTIES BILL. This bill, as amended by the Chancellor of the Exche quer, was considered and agreed to. The third reading was ordered for to morrow (this day), at half. past four o'clock. TELEGRAPHS BILL. The house went into committee on this bill. In reply to Mr. POVELL, with reference to clause 6, Mr. M. GIBSON said that he would take care to have the bill reprinted with the amendments before the third reading. The clause was then agreed to. On clause 7, Mr. BLACKBURN moved an amendment to the effect that no telegraph wire should be placed under any street or road except with the consent of the local authorities. Mr. M. GIBSON said the provision under the clause was similar to that contained in the general act regarding pub lic works. Mr. HENLEY did not wish that a corporation, where it existed, nor the trustees of a turnpike road, should have the absolute power of stopping the telegraph ; but he thought they should be heard. He should therefore sup port the amendment. Lord A. CHURCHILL supported the clause. Mr. M. GIBSON could not give his consent to the amendment. A short discussion ensued, in which Mr. Blackburn, Mr. Henley, Sir J. Shelley, and Lord A. Churchill took part. Lord HOTHAM said that powers had been given to tele graph companies which ought not to have been ever granted to them. (Hear, hear.) He had been on a committee last year which refused powers to a telegraph company, but another committee which sat subsequently granted to another company the very powers which his committee had refused to the comp .ny whose bill came before them. Mr. R. MILLS said that he was the chairman of the se cond committee, and he should say that they had delibe rately granted those powers. They were not surreptitiously obtained. Mr. BLACKBURN said that he was in the hands of the committee. The committee then divided. The numbers were— For the amendment Against it Majority The clause was then agreed to. On clause 8, relative to the notice to be given to public bodies for laying down wires underneath public roads, some discussion ensued. Mr. DALGLISH moved that the notice should be ex tended from 14 to 28 days. Mr. M. GIBSON accepted the amendment, and the clause in that shape was agreed to. Clauses up to 12 were then agreed to, when, On the motion of Mr. MACKIE, The Chairman was ordered to report progress and the house resumed. VACCINATION (IRELAND) BILL. Sir R. PEEL moved the second reading of this bill, which he said was framed to meet points in which the bill of 1851 had failed. The bill assimilated the law in Ireland to that of England in making vaccination compulsory. The whole expense to the 163 unions in Ireland would not exceed £3 16s. Bd, each, After some discussion the debate on the motion was adjourned. The house adjourned at ten minutes past one'oclock, Births. GEm.—On the 22d inst., at Belle Vue House, Halesowen, Worcestershire, the wife of Edward Gem, Esq.,of twins, a son and daughter. HANEURY.—On the 22d inst., at 42, Great Cumberland place, the wife of George Hanbury, Esq., of a daugh ter. WOOD.—On the 23d inst., at 42, Inverness-road, the wife of J. T. Wood, Esq., of a son. Marriages. NOEL—BROE.—On the 21st inst., at All Souls', Langham place, the Hon. Roden B. W. Noel, son of the Earl and Countess of Gainsborough, to Alice, daughter of Paul Broe, Esq., late Director of the Ottoman Bank, at Bey rout. PATET—CLEAVE.—On the 20; h inst., at the pariah church Clewer, George Samuel Patey, Esc] , of Milt on, Berks , to Emily, second daughter of Mr. John Cleave, Sussex Villa, Windsor. Deaths. Richd. Smirke Baker, Esq., aged the 21st inst., Mr. Willi am Bench, Roebuck BENCII.—On d-hill. Hotel, Richmon BAKER.—On the 22d 3 i 7 n . 5t., at Nottin g -hil l, DUTTON.—On the 20th 9 inst., at St reatham-common, Thos. Dutton, Esq. aged 3. On the 21st inst., Th omas Iligham, Esq., of t., at B r i s li ngton, near Bristol, M CT (I: a m r A g mN a .a t_e n , nr e n twh t , e. a 2r g oi e tt d hm R N an, SYKES.—On the 21st inst., at Sledmore House, Sir Tatton. Sykes, Bart., aged 91. NEwcomß.—On the 22d inst., at Rock House, Stamford, Robt. Nicholas Newcomb, Esq., proprietor of the Lincoln and Stamford Mercury, Deputy-Lieut. and J.P. for the county of Lincoln, aged 45. London : Printed and Published by WILLIAM ANDREWS of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at TUE SUN Office, No, 112 Strand, in the Precinot of the Savoy, in the County co Id iddlesex.—Tuesday, DUN 24,.1863. 11 dal 1 Isla biz one stai don lElo l'u( low I. W. e W. J., E.