The Sun. — London, England, 1854-07-18 00:00:00

Mee of a military chief placed at the head of the artillery or engineers, and who is entrusted to provide arms foe the defence of the country, has added to its duties great civil functions, which are connected at once with military and political duties in the State. For instance, take the subject of barrack accommodation for the troops at home and abroad, which is one of high importance, in volving various considerations, and for which estimates are presented to the house involving very considerable tat expen diture to the country. Bat the manner in whic h question has been generally conducted is one which makes it very difficult to come to a permanently sound conclu sion. The Secretary for the Home Departmen t , prtalar district, e findi ng i that there are riots and tumults in a and being told by persons resident in it garrison - t a hat t it a w p o a u rt ld iou b l e a a r g reat security for them to have a spot for their protection, takes measei!estoa have barracks constructed in that locality. But it is obvious that the question of barrack accommodation in the United King dom involves both civil considerations of expense and mili tary considerations as to the stationing of troops at points where they are wanted, and from whi c h a concentration might take place in a very short time. So likewise with regard to the colonies. At one time a long and volumin ous correspondence occurred, which has been referred to by Earl Grey on a recent occasion, with regard to the best mode of planting troop! in the island of Jamaica. Op inions were given on the subject b y p erson s of authority, who were sent. out by the Ordnance department to the colony. Reports came back, which were referred to the Treasury. The Treasury then consulted Vs's Secretary -at-War and the Master-General, and a year elapsed without a solution of that question. No .s , it is obvious that a Secretary of State for the War Department, having the authority which a Secretary of State has, being also connected with the Government, being by his office of Secretary of State a member of the Cabinet, would bring that question to a very speedy solution ; he would have an examination made with respect to the salubrity of the position pro posed for barracks, and with respect to its fitness for troops placed to defend the island ; and in this manner there might possibly be a considerable saving both of time and expense. Take, again, the question of fortifications, which is one of the highest importance both at- home and abroad. I will not now touch on that part of the subject which relates to our home defences, but take the fortifica tions of any particular colony, such as Trinidad or Mauri tius. The select committee of the house appointed some years ago to inquire into our military expenditure, made a report in which they desired that the Government would fully consider the question, and it is obvious that it is one requiring considerable attention, and mixed up with the whole policy of the State in respect to future arrangements of the connection with our dependencies. I remember, with reference to Gibraltar, when I had the honour of being Secretary of State for the Colonies, a committee was appointed consisting of several high military authorities, and a considerable time passed before they came to any de cision. A Master-General of the Ordnance, not politically connected with the Government of course, rather hesitates to give an opinion, by which very considerable expense may be incurred, without being fully aware of the views of the Cabinet on this subject. A Minister of War would be enabled to collect all the materials necessary for form ing a judgment on this subject, and before the estimates for the year were prepared he would have gone over them, and would have informed the Government what measures were in his opinion necessary, and whether it was advisable that any further expenses should be incurred, or whether any retrenchment could be effected. So with regard o our ' West India Islands; several years ago it was found t hat those islands, having been occupied in time of war by large bodies of troops, had a great number of forts mounted with cannon, which required small parties of artillery to be posted in different places in order to keep them in repair, and ques tions arose as to the arrangements which should be made for these objects: Upon such points the opinion of a Secretary of State for War would probably be of great use in drawing up the estimates. With regard to the department of Secre tary-at-War, there are less ch anges th a t can b e made. The business of the Secretary at War is chiefly one of details; if you have 100,000 men, you have a certain estimate and various arrangements consequent on that number, and so if you have 20,000, or 30,000, or 40,000. A good deal of consideration is required in- order to fix the point at which your establishment should be kept ; but that having been done, there are few questions of difficulty which arise. Except in regard to the commissariat, I cannot now enter into any outline of the official arrangements which will be made, The question has been f o und one of much difficulty by the Governments of Earl Grey and Lord Melbourne, and I think it better that the head of the department, an - active man of business like the noble duke who is now at the head of it, should take into his consideration what changes are expedient in the whole department, and should propose them when they are required. With regard to the commissariat, I see no objection which can be made to the change we propose, Ido not see that there is any other change that can be made in the official arrangements, and I will only say that there is no person who is in the Government charged with any department who will make any personal objection to such arrangements as may be thought necessary for the public service, and that what ever arrangement shall be thought desirable, it will be cheerfully acceded to. In reference to the militia, I think the arrangement prevailing at present is that the embodied militia comes under the Secretary-at-War and the Com reander-in-Chief, but the disembodied militia is under the Secretary for the Home Department. As at pre sent advised, we do not think it expedient that any change should be male in that respect ; if it should be thought necessary, it can be made at any time ; but the present arrangement being one that concerns the colonels of militia, and other officers who are in the habit of trans acting business with the Home Department, there appears no advantage in making any other change. The great ad vantage which I think will be gained by our measure is the separating the civil from the military department, a great part of the business now done at the Board of Ord nance under a military chief being entirely of a civilnature. It appear s to me, whatever may be the mode in which you arrive at the result, that the Commander-in-Chief and the blaster -General of the Ordnance, if those two offices are to continue separate, or the head of both combined if they are to be united, should have the whole control of the dis cipline and patronage of the army, including the artillery and engineers, and that, on the other hand, the civil de partments s'iottld have the whole of the arrangements that . are necessary for the lodging of the army, the fortifications at home and abroad, the provisioning and pay of the troops. When these changes shall have been effected, the Rouse of Commons will then have before it, on the respell eibility of the Secretary of State for the War Department, the whole military expenditure of the country. Therefore, if there should be any complaint with respect to furnishing provisions for the troops, for instance, instead of saying that the arrangements of the Treasury have ben defective the house will c:.11 on the Secretary for the War Depart ment to answer, and will consider him responsible, for arrangements which must at all times entail a very heavy burden on the country. These, sir, are the g eneral arrangements which are in con t em pl a ti on . I have already said that I think there are others which must be carried into effect from time to time. It would be impossible to carry them into effect at present, now that we are at the beginning of a war, when the Secretary , of State is fully employed by those urgent and impor tant duties which belong to the Minister who is to super intend the military expenditure of the country, and give directions for the employment of our forces. What I have to ask of the committee, therefore, having explained the general views of the Government, is to allow time for car rying into effect the new arrang ements on the responsibi lity of Ministers. There are at presort two offices at the Board of Ordnance vacant which are usually held by m - bore of th e H ouse of Commons, that of Surveyor- Genera l, , and that of Secretary to the Master-General of the Ord nance. It is not intended without full o considerat' n to y fill up thos e o ffi ces, at least in the wa in which theyhve been hithert o fill e d . At present the only opinion I ca n a give is, th a t w h i l st i t may not be necessary to keep up the office of Secret ar y t o th e M aster-General with so large a salary as hitherto, it will be necessary to appoint a Sur veyor-General to the Ordnance department But if that department is kept up as before, it may be advisable rather to appoint a person who has a competent knowledge of the important duties that belong to that department than a member of this house not hitherto conversant with those duties. But lam asking now that the whole subject may be reserved for the consideration of the Government, and shall put the vote into (your hands with that understand ing. I should mention that a considerable part of the ex pense has been already voted, about 2,0001. a-year or more of salaries having been included in the estimates for the Colonial department, and other sums, of which I do not know the exact amount, having coming under the heads of the Treasury and Home departments. With respect to the cams to be created, I should state first that the military Under Secretary of State was appointed before the separation of the offices by the Duke of Newcastle, when he was Secretary of State for 'War and the Colo nies. With respect to the other under secretary, the purpose of appointing him is, that he may conduct cor respondence, and transact other business coming imme diately under the control of the Secretary of State. But the person who is to fill that office will have no lasting tenure of it until the final arrangements are made, so that the present one will be merely provisional. With respect to the three classes of clerks, it is intended that they shall be all of them taken from offices in which they are at pre sent serving. There will be a certain number appointed as probationary clerks, who will receive salaries of 100/. and 1501. a-year ; the senior ' and junior clerks will rise as in other offices, b ut they heywill not, for the present, have With higher sal a ri es . the explanations I have given to the house, I beg to move the vote in the hands of the Chairman. Sir J. PAXINGTON had listened to the noble lord with the greatest astonishment and disappom' tment. The noble lord had told them that he had stated the views of the • Government ; but it appeared to himd onlythat that was exact l y could what he had no t d one, and he understand that t f from the noble lord' s speech, with the singleexception commissariat was to be transferred from the Treasu ry . the new depa r t men t , that the Government had forme d to views on th a t su bj ect, and had called into existence no department of th e St a t e, creating a new officer ofthe a high. new est class, without h av i ng at all determined what h i his clt i ti o ea n were to be, or what w ere t o b e the new arran gement this subject, which, unde r th e f orce of existing circeum stances, was become one of the most important that could occupy the consideration of the house. (Hear, bea r .) The noble lord, in the outset of his observations, had done him the honour to refer to some remarks that fell from him in a former discussion during the pre sent session upon this subject. He entirely agreed with the noble lord to this extent, that now that we were unhappily engaged in war it had become impo ss ibl e for any public servant holding the office of Secretary for the Colonies adequately to discharge its duties and at the same time those which devolved upon the War Mi nister. He had pointed out this as strongly as he could on the occasion to which he referred, and the same view had able spe r ec k hin t an n o ,s t ) hei le( p i l e a o c e e s b so y r th io e been enforced in a most noble earl who was his (Sir J. a - ling o the Colonial-office. But the Government h p on i ght no to have rested content with stating that t ae lle p y ara a t i e the conclusion that it was necessary to arriv e d those two - offices. They had a right to expec t that , before the Go vernment asked them to vote an estimate for the establish ment of a ne w d e p ar tment of State, they wou l d have made up their minds what the duties of the new secretary were to be, and in what manner the present anomalies and . inconveniences incident to the administration of the army were to be remedied. (Hear, hear.) He hardly thought . that the country was aware that under the present manage ment of our military forces there were six different heads of authority. The regular army, infantry, cavalry, and I tssa Tertillem .. -- ',..e... " and tßel'Xv e was erras.Ginelnyerimi of the O r d nance the enrolled pen anaged by the Commander-in - Chief ;": / - e, .• admen, — lie belie ve d , were under the management of the t e : -. , Secretary ar ; the dockyard battalions, be rather sit , thoughtovert nder the management of the Admiralty • the _ o 2_lel n e e poulrelssanat as under the Treasury; and . as for the Admiralty; / ' ,i'n( n ee , ee leianry andThetnilitia it would be very difficult to say ui. der te , ': s ' o.rgss h t ithofty they ' 2 ,- -0,4: 3 V 6a... . 1 were - ethey were tinder a great variety ..r-A- - ,' OWAVOION If the nbiect Wl3# to be spproaded by the V 7 -417%-i c4.s,=. '.l -, 1 - " - Government, they were bound to have made up their mind in what manner they would amalgamate and con solidate the six different branches of our military force, and the authorities by whom they were directed. Let him remind the house that this was by no means a new sub ject, but one to which the attention of Government and Par liament had at different times been directed. The noble lord had reminded them of the fact that so long ago as when the Duke of Richmond held office in the Administration of Earl Grey, a commission was appointed on this subject, of which_ the noble lord was a member, and he adverted I also to the commission subsequently appointed in 1836, "of which Earl Grey, then Lord Howick, and Secretary at War, officiated at chairman, and of which the noble lord as well as the noble viscount at the head of the Home de partment were members. That commission made a very elaborate report in the year 1837, recommending that the anomalous state of things to which he had adverted should be abolished, that the Commander-in-Chief and Master- General of the Ordnance should continue to discharge the functions pertaining to the strictly military branch of their offices, but that the civil duties of the various de partments should be consolidated, that the Secretary at War should have a seat in the Cabinet as the responsible minister in that house, though not a Secretary of State ; and also, if he recollected rightly, that the commissariat should be transferred to the new department, and taken away from the Treasury. The noble lord hail told them that, in consequence of certain objections of the Duke of Wellington, those recommendations were not carried out, but he had not told them that he had been a member of the commission, and, having concurred in its report, that he now dissented from the recommendations then made. Neither had the noble lord adverted to the fact, not unim portant as bearing on this question, that in the year 18:50 a committee of that house was appointed to inquire into the details of the army and ordnance expenditure, which was selected with great care, anti contained members most competent to the discharge of their duties, the noble lord the member for Totnes (Lord Seymour) being chairman. They restated in their report the recommendations of the committee of 1837, and declared their conviction that these should be acted upon. Here was a third recent and com petent authority which recorded its opinion that the exist ing anomalies should be removed, and the inconveniences of the present system corrected ; but to the report of that committee the noble lord had made no reference whatever. He certainly had felt very great surprise that with a war hanging over us, with almost the certainty that as soon as Parliament met we should find ourselves embarked in a serious and too probably protracted contest, the in Govern ment had not directed their attention to this subject dur ing the leisure of the recess, order that they might be prepared when Parliament met, to present a complet e scheme for the consolidation of the different departments connected with the management of the army. After Par liament met, of course the unsatisfactory state of our military administration became the subject of comment in both houses. It was brought under the notice of the other house by a noble earl, and was brought forward in that house by the hon. member for Montrose. In that debate, the right hon. gentleman the Secretary-at-War made a speech contending that, in spite of the anamolies complained of, the existing state of things ought to con thine ; and after quoting some opinions of Lord Grey, he said :—" If Lord Grey thinks there is a time when no alterations should be made a fortiori, the present is a mo ment when, in my opinion at least, it would be dangerous to make such a change as that proposed by my hon. friend" —namely, that there should be a change in the management of the army, and a consolidation of the different branches of the service. "At any time, continued the right hon. gentleman, " I think you ought to proceed step by step, but at this moment I do not believe you could undertake a more rash experiment than when you are about to enter on a seri ous contest, and when you will have the greatest pressure on your energies and resources from being engaged in a hot war." The noble lord (Lord J. Russell) also remarked, "My right hon. friend has explained the great difficultyand incon 7enience that would arise from attempting to carryinto effect a new organisation of the departments at a moment when they are all required to make the utmost exertions in the preparation of the expedition now on its way to the to the East. Instead of being a great public convenience, I believe it would be a great public inconvenience, if the carrying out of these arrangements were to be transferred to any other department." In that debate it was an nortnced that all the Government intended to do was, to add a new secretary in the colonial department, consider ing the pressure of business. He confessed he yielded to the force of the argument then used, and he thought the prudent course of the Government was to go on with the existing state of things, adding, however, another Under- Secretary of State for the Colonial Department, until the recess should enable them to address themselves to the whole subject, with the view of laying some definite plan before Parliament at th e commencement of the next ses sion. It was, how ever , w i t h some surprise that he learned, during the Whitsuntide holidays, that the Government had determined to establish a new department, with a Secretary of State at the head of it. He thought that the original opinions of th e no bl e l or d (L or d J ohn Russell) on this subject were wiser than those which he subsequently adopted. It wou ld h ave b een far better, in his judgment, if the noble l or d h a d d e f erred, until this' session was over; any fresh arrangement. He thought that would have been a better and a wiser plan than to come as he now did, with an imperfect proposal, establishing a new department, and a new Secretary of State, without having determined, ex cept in one single respect, what the duties of that new de partment and that new Secretary of State were to be. (Hear.) He did not understand the noble lord to express any decided opinion that the management of barracks and fortifications was to be transferred to the new departinent, or that the Government had made up its mind in any re spect as to what the duties of this new department were to be, except that the commissariat was to be trans ferred to the new Secretary of State. But that which must have struck the country most was, that which ap peared to him to be, at this moment, the anomalous posi tion of the Secretary at War. (Cheers from the Opposi tion.) The country must have been surprised to find that, when the Government had so far matured their opinions as to make up their minds to the creation of a new depart ment and a new Secretary of State, the Secretary at War was to continue in existence at the bead of an important public department, and still to be a Cabinet Minister. (Hear, hear.) What authority did the noble lord find for that in any one of the reports to which ho had referred ? He (Sir John Pakington) knew of no recommendation which had contemplated the simultaneous existence of a War Minister in the Cabinet, and a Secretary of War in the Cabinet. (Hear, hear.) That anomalous state of affairs, he thought, was the strongest proof that could have been afforded that the Government, from some motive or ether—he could not venture to say what the influence might be—hail changed their opinions, and their intended mode of action. For some reason or other it seemed to have been thought desirable to add a new Minister to the Cabinet during the Whitsuntide recess ; arid now, to his (Sir John Pakington's) extreme surprise, they were about to vote this sum of money for the establishment of a new department and a new Secretary of State, whose duties were not defined, and whose duties it was clear the Go vernment themselves had not determined upon. (Hear, hoar.) He thought the house had great reason to feel dis satisfied with this most unsatisfactory state of things. He thought they had a right to some explanation as to the difference of the duties of the Secretary of State for War and of the Secretary at War, both of them being Cabinet Ministers ; and he should sit down in the hope that they should have some explanation of what tho views of the Government were, more satisfactory and more full than that which had been afforded by the noble lord the Presi dent of the Council. (Cheers from the Opposition.) Mr. S. HERBERT—I am afraid that that state of re gret, surprise, and astonishment in which the right hon. baronet usually finds himself—(a laugh)—at a state of things to which he cannot give his consent, will not be, and can not be, relieved by anything that I have to address to the committee ; but I hope I shall be able to make clear to the great body,of the committee what are the intentions of the Government, and to defend the course taken by the Go vernment, which has been so impugned by the right hon. baronet. He is surprised that we, who so short a time ago expressed opinions diametrically opposed to making any change in the military departments, should now suddenly propose to make a complete reconstruction of those depart ments. The right hon. baronet quoted from memory one er two extracts from a speech that I had made on this subject, in order to show that I at least had expressed an opinion in favour of a perfect system. I think the com mittee will do me the justice to believe that at the time when we before discussed this question there wza no want of frankness on my part in stating my opinions on the sub ject. I have held my present office in the Government on two separate occasions, and having turned my atteutioa a good deal to this subject, I thought it would not be imper tinent in me, though not speaking with the authority of the Government, to give a general outline of what ap peared to me were the principal defects of the existing system, and of the measures which seemed necessary to re medy those defects. Now, it is quite true that I had spoken in reprobation of the arguments used for a con solidation of the military departments, grounded on the misunderstaudinga which had arisen between the dif ferent military and civil officers at the commencement of the present century. Now, a great deal of publi c feeling has been excited upon s subject which is en tirely uncalled for. We have great difficulties to con tend with in dealing with these departments ; and I say, let us apply ourselves to that task, but let us first get rid of all those pre-Adamtite anecdotes—(a lsugh)—in which some are wont to indulge, but which are wholly foreign to the purpose in hand. What I meant to intimate on that occasion was this. I said, so far from their being now a difficulty arising from any disagreement between the mili tary and civil departments, that had passed away ; but that I was alive to the inconveniences of the present sys tem. The Commander-in-Chief has not that knowledge of what is being done by the Ordnance department which I think is exceedingly desirable. For example, a fortifi cation may be made in any part of the island, and that fortification when made, may be disapproved of by the commander-in-Chief. I think that is a great evil. You have there the separate action of two departments of great importance, uncontrolled by any superintending authority. Yo u may, however, consolidate departments, and they ma y become inefficient from over-consolidation. I am not, indeed, at department ain in respect to the efficiency of the Ordnance p that you are not suffering from over cwoanns?lidation rather than the want of it. What you most I is, not I said at that them de partments, but o with a view to of our troop s in t a so much the consolidation of the different n° supervising authority, s make all of hctinfiehladrmanodnioautshcoommebinbaytiaond.op(:,,Crhtneeierns.: time that it appeared to me the provisioning but which has which has, practically, the cash supplies r a I think the department carrying nothing at all to do with that sub ject,great deal to do with it in reference to of check, but which is went, should not be intrusted with depart mentdirectiontrotthecommissariatadministrativeshouldmaildiut duty of that kind ; and have expressed my opinion that the Ordnance . might be di vided military departments. I into two portions. It is now, indeed in a sense di vided into two portions; for there is the civl and there is the military department. They are governed by the same therefore department of in -chief man, but not in the same manner. distinction between the two portions of tits " ' the Ordnance; but whether the Commander have the artillery and the engineers transferre-detdj; think, a grave question for consideration. I have no him is, when we come to go further into this matter, we shall fi n d there are some sound and valid reasons for that opinion My own impression was that the Commander-in -Chi e f was the proper person to have the direction and command of the whole personnel of the army, including the artillery and engineers, and that there should be left to the Ordinance only the civil department, or that which dealt with the great subjects of cl , thine., stores, and the lik e . Th a t m i ght be open to misunderstanding; but that it should have been misinterpreted by the right hon. baronet as being a com plete adhesion to the existing system, does, I confess, in spire me with some of those feelings of surprise with which he appears on this occasion to be oppressed. (Hear.) The right hoz baronet bays the Government ought to hayobeen THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, JULY 18, 1854. consented to withdraw the word " misdemeanour," be cause it was one of the best protections afforded by the bill against bribery. Mr. HILDYARD was afraid that persons subscribing to any election fund would be guilty of a misdemeanour under this clause, although they might have received the sanction of the election officer. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL did not think that the clause would prevent either clubs or private individuals from subscribing their money to secure the return of their favourite candidate; the object of the enactment was sim ply to provide that money so subscribed should be paid in the same way as the money of the candidate himself— through the election officer. It was perfectly plain that unless the prohibitions imposed upon candidates were ex tended to all other persons, the bill would be inoperative. (Hear, hear.) As to voters clubbing together to pay their common expenses, he was clearly of opinion that such a case would not come within the meaning of the clause. Sir J. PAKINGTON approved the clause, but thought the noble lord had made a desirable alteration by modi fying the penalties. Even with this enactment, he was afraid they would not succeed in putting a stop to all im proper practices on the part of the friends of candidates. Mr. NE WDEGATE would ask the Attorney-General whether the fact of voters clubbing their money together would not compel them to give an account of their ex penses to the election officer ? He thought the clause would destroy the independent action of the consti tuencies. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said every man was en titled to pay his own expenses, and the mere fact of his joining with another voter in the payment of their com mon expenses would not bring him within the meaning of the clause. The sole object of the clause was to prevent his expenses being paid by another person without the knowledge or sanction of the election officer. Mr. AGLION BY thought that this was one of the most valuable clauses in the bill. It was necessary for the pro tection of the honest voter, would enable them to secure purity of election, and was of still more importance as a protection to the candidate himself. In reply to a question from Lord R. GROSVENOR, Sir F. KELLY said he would undertake to propose a clause to this effect—that if, upon the trial of an action to recover these penalties, it should appear to the judge that payments had been made without any illegal intention, it should be competent for him to reduce the penalties to any sum not less than 40s. The amendment proposed by Lord J. Russell was then agreed to. • Mr. LIDDELL said he was still unsatisfied with the clause, and would persist in his motion for its rejection. The committee then divided, when there voted— For the clause ll5 Against it 26 Majority The clause was accordingly agreed to as amended. Clause 27 provides that an account of the election ex penses should be made out by the election officer. Mr. HENLEY suggested that the - abstract to be pub lished should contain an account of all sums claimed, as well as paid, otherwise it would not afford the candidate a sufficient protection against exorbitant claims. Mr. WALPOLE thought the clause was sufficient as it stcod. It provided that the election officer should make a return of all the expenses incurred by the candidate; that should embrace all claims made upon him. Sir F. KELLY had no objection to introduce the words " and all sums claimed, although the same shall not have been allowed." The clause as amended was then agreed to. On clause 28, Mr. HENLEY said that this clause enacted that the returning officer should keep copies of the accounts in some convenient place for public inspection ; but it did not pro vide a sufficient machinery for that purpose. Mr. G. E. H. VERNON thought that the proposed remuneration of 101. to the election officer would not at all compensate him for the labour imposed by the clause. After a few words from Mr AGLIONBY and Mr. ELLIOT, Sir F. KELLY admitted that some place ought to be fixed by the act where the accounts should be deposited. He would suggest the office of the clerk of the peace in counties, and of the town clerk in boroughs. The accounts, however, could be deposited with them till they were complete, some time after the election might elapse before that), and it would therefore be necessary to provide some place for their custody in the interval. He would be pre pared to make a proposition on bringing up the report. Mr. HENLEY considered that the matter required great care ; it was necessary that some person should be in constant attendance, or the accounts might be tampered with by any person making a copy, The clause was then agreed to. On clause 29, providing that the election officer shall in sert an abstract of the accounts in two newspapers pub lished or circulated in the place, Lord R. GROSVENOR wished to know who was to pay for the advertisement. Sir F. KELLY said the expense should be defrayed by the candidates. Lord SEYMOUR reminded the hon. and learned mem ber that there were many districts in which th ere were n ot two si ne ,F, w .e s iK p re a Eu p ia ey eLrLspd.u,s,baliidshtehde clause met the diffi cu lty by th e word . Mr. HILDYARD did not see any necessity for the pub lication in the papers at all. He intended to take the sense of the committee on the clause. If the accounts were to be published, he thought the claims ought to be also, and not a mere abstract. Mr. AGLIONBY thought one newspaper would be suf ficient. He would move an amendment to that effect. Mr. GROGAN said the publication in the papers would be very expensive. He would suggest that the accounts be not published unless on the requisition of either can didate. Sir J. PAKINGTON hoped his right hon. friend the chairman of the select committee, or some other member of it, would assign a reason for the clause. It seemed to him very absurd ; it gave no security, and he would vote against it unless some good reason was given. Mr. MAGAN suggested that the accounts should be placarded through the district instead of being published in the papers. Lord SEYMOUR asked who was to pay the election officer for the expense of advertising ? The clause was only permissive and not compulsory, and he regarded it as all nonsense. Sir F. KELLY said the clause was not his production, but that of the hon. member for Manchester (Mr. Bright). Still he thought it important. Its object was to give pub licity to the accounts, but more especially to the names of parties who made claims upon candidates. No greater check could bo devised against improper claims upon can didates than publication, and he hoped it would be adopt ed. The expenses of advertising would form part of the election expenses, and would not fall upon the election officer. At the same time he thought a single advertise ment would be sufficient in any ono newspaper published or circulated in the county or place. The clause having been amended to this effect, Mr. HILDYARD thought that his hon. and learned friend ought not to disavow the authorship of the clause. He ieminded him of the maxim, " Qui facit per alium facit per se." He objected to the whole cause on the ground that it required the publication of all claims upon the candidates which were allowed, while there was no direction to pub lish those which were disallowed. He moved an addition to this effect, but should still take the sense of the committee upon the question that the clause stand part of the bill. Sir F. KELLY said the word " account" in this and in the two preceding clauses would include the publication of the charges disallowed. Still, if this interpretation was objected to by his hon. and learned friend, he would not oppose the introduction of words to the effect he desired. Mr. HILDYARD totally differed from this interpreta tion of the three clauses. Mr. BRIGHT said publication in the newspapers of ab stracts would be a check upon expenditure to which the candidate ought not to be exposed. He recommended the house to adopt the clause without the amendment sug gested by the hon. and learned member for Whitehaven. Sir J. WALSH contended that a great object was to be obtained by the introduction of the words proposed by the hon. and learned member for Whitehaven. By holding up unjust claims upon candidates the committee would be doing as much for the prevention of bribery as they would by the publication of admitted claims. Mr. BENTINCK subbmitted that the time should be limited during which the election officer should be obliged to submit the accounts to inspection. Twelve months was too long; three months were sufficient; and he should move an amendment to this effect on the report. Mr. WALPOLE approved of the clause as it stood. The effect of the amendment moved by the hon. and learned member for Whitehaven would bo that candidates would have all sorts of exorbitant and unjust claims made upon them by mischievous persons. Mr. HILDYARD could not accede to this reasoning. If the candidate was called upon to publish at all, he ought to publish the claims that were wrongfully made upon him, and he denied that it would be either vexatious or unwar rantable. Mr. MASSEY said the 28th clause effected all the pur pose of necessary publicity, and all beyond was mere scandal. After a few words from Mr. G. BUTT, who said he should vote for the rejection of the whole clause, The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said it was of great im portance to insure authentic publicity. The 28th clause enabled every elector to obtain the accounts, and he might publish them if he thought proper ; but it would be better , to adopt means to secure publicity in an authentic form. This was the duty of the election officer, and the object of it was that the public might know the amount of the ex penditure. As to making it incumbent upon the officer to publish the claim s he disallowed as well as those allowed, it was a minor point. He did not see much objection to it, but certainly Publication by the election officer was one of the most imp or t ant parts of the b i ll . (H ear .) Mr. V. SMITH said the object of this bill was to invoke public opinion in diminution of expenses, and for the pre vention of bribery. This could only be done by publishing the account s in the newspapers, the provision fof which he regarded as one of the most important in the bill. But he did not think it would be beneficial to publish accounts which were disallowed. Mr. PIGOTT objected to the amendment, on the ground that it would tend to encourage litigation on the part of candidates. After a few words from Mr. BENTINCK, Lord R. GROSVENOR called attention to the fact that the clause did not state by whom the expenses of the o. be. S published. C l jL pub lication of th e accounts were t o be paid. He gave notice that he should propose that they be paid out of the county or borough rate, and in cases where there was neither, that te v e r should a speci a l rate should be laid fur the purpose after the election. Mr.o 117. publicity.claims the utmost mswha Mr. HILDYARD w ithd rew his previous verbal amend- LY ment in o r d er t o move t o i nser t after the word " correct," thought H e was favourable all c "or claims u no bj ec t e d t o ," and at the end of the clause, or by which the same have bean claimed respectively." The am en d men t was agree d t o . Lord R. GROSVENOR move d to add at the end of th e claus e , "th e expenses of suc h publication to be defrayed out of the county rate or the borough rate, and where there is n e ith er a county nor borough rate, by a special rate denominated an election rate, to be levied on the electoral district." Lcrd J. RUSSELL thought there was 901110 omission in the bill in not providing for payment of the cost of publica tion. Supposing the expense were to be paid by the candi date, a very fit place for making that addition would be at the end of clause 34. But his noble fu lend said it ought to be paid out of the borough or county rate. He thought a great principle was involved in that proposal, and there fore it should be made either by a separate bill, or by a separate clause, and not by adding a few words at the end of a clause. He did not think it advisable to throw the expenses of an election on a county or borough, and this amendment involved that principle, different from the law as it now stood. Mr. DEEDES objected to the amendment. Mr. BRIGHT believed from his experienceof newspaper proprietors there would be great competition to get hold of these accounts and to publish them. They would prove an interesting item of jutelligence, and 4e ellould be quite l in a condition to act immediately on the spur of the mo ment in this matter, or not at all. The report to which he has referred was published in 1839. Well, what happened in the case ? The committee came to no decision upon the subject, but there were one or two reports drawn up by different members of that committee; and when the com mission sat which subsequently reported, they dissented from those views, and substituted one of their own. At any rate, therefore, the subject was not so easy of decision as the right hon. baronet seems to think, This commission having reported, no Government that succeeded it has ever attempted to carry that report into effect—and why ? Be cause they felt the change was so great, involving as it did the remodelling of every military department, and their consequent consolidation, that unless they had a great deal of concurrence of opinion in favour of that specific plan, and unless there was a great change of feeling, in would be in vain to attempt to carry it out. Four Governments suc ceeded to the appointment of that commission, but none of them attempted to make the change which had been sug gested. It might be possible to do a great deal, and I hope it is, at the present moment ; but I must say at the mo ment when every department was strained to its utmost for the purpose of sending out, on a great emergency, a force amounting to nearly 40,000 men, under very great difficulty with regard to ships, but I hope and believe in a state of very great efficiency, if we had chosen that as the time, as suggested by the right hon. baronet, for carrying into practical effect certain theoretical improvements in this and that particular subject—if we had, regardless of delay, and of the great emergency, set about squaring all these departments to a model suggested 25 years ago, the Government would have been unworthy of the position they hold, and unworthy of the confidence of the country. (Clmers.) The Government felt, and justly felt, that the first thing to do was that which pressed most. There is no doubt about it that the duties of a Minister charged with the management of the colonies are so great as to be incompatible with those of carrying on a war. In former years, when this country was at war, the Colonial Mini ster, it is true, carried on the war, but for the simplest of all reasons, that he neglected the colonial business. But that cannot be done now. That, as I have said, was the first thing to be done, because it was necessary to the effi ciency of the service, and therefore we did that first. Tho noble lord stated the Government would then take care, after due consideration, and step by step, to put the new department on another system, which should free them from the recurrence of acknowledged evils ; but he declined to state exactly how he would distribute the various duties, and what changes he would make in the different depart ments. .And he was quite right in acting on general prin ciples, for I may remind the right km. baronet that this paragraph appears in the report of the committee which sat three years ago :—" Your committee refrain from pointing out any detailed course of action on this subject, leaving the responsibility of that to those whose official position and authority can alone guide them in applying a remedy to the present state of things." I stated at the commencement of the session, when the hon. gentleman the member for Montrose raised this question, what were my views on the subject generally, and what were the views of the Government. From none of those views have I seen any reason to depart. We have already taken this great step ; we have disconnected the co lonies from the War Department. We have, there fore, one responsible head, who can supervise all these establishments, and who can supervise all the changes which are to be effected in these departments. He will at once have the commissariat put under his authority. That is a great and important step. He will then have the means of examining to what extent the consolidation of the mili tary and civil portions of the Ordnance can be carried into effect. But if you ask us to put the Whole machinery out of gear—(hear)—for the sake of introducing some theory which the right hon. baronet might easily in a few mo ments sketch out on a sheet of paper, I say I think the subject is by far too important to be treated so lightly as that ; and on such an emergency the Government are pound to feel their w a y as thy go on. They would not risk the efficiency of those departments, on the efficiency of which the safety and success of our arms at this moment so materially depends. The right hon gentleman says he cannot understand how you can have two Cabinet Minis ters both engaged in military departments. But I beg him to bear in mind that the duties of the Secretary-at- War are not of an executive character. His duties are delegated to him by the Treasury. (Hear, hear.) The Treasury has the great financial check and control over all the expenditure of the country, but the expenditure of the country is too great and too minute in its details to be sus ceptible of being checked by any officer of the Treasury, and therefore they delegate to the Secretary-at-War, with reference to the army, all the powers which they exercise themselves in respect to other departments of expenditure, and he checks and controls the expenditure with a view to proper economy and efficiency. If, therefore, you have him doing the duties of both departments, he ceases to have any check or control. (Hear, hear.) I have heard the hon. member for Montrose constantly complain that the management of the navy was far more expensive than that of the array. I have no doubt the management of the army has been far more closely looked into than that of the navy, because in the case of the army one man expends the money and another holds the purse; not a regulation can be made by the Commander-in-Chief without the con sent of the Finance Minister, in the person of the Secre tary-at-War ; and that is tho secret of much of the eco nomy in the department of war which had been practised for a great number of years. If, therefore, you combine the two things, yon do away with that whole system of econo mical control in the management of the army which has lone so much to enhance its efficiency. Again, the right hon. baronet says you ought not to have two Cabinet Mi nisters. But why does he assume you are going to consti tute the departments with two Cabinet Ministers? Ho says the office is useless, and if it is useless why not abolish it? I think I have satisfied the house that, financially speaking, the existence of the office of Secretary-at-War is vital to the efficiency of the army. (Hear, hear.) The Secretary at-War now exercises a very wholesome check over the ex penditure of the army • and I am clearly of opinion that the control which the Secretary-at-War has over the ex penditure of the army, under the Commander in -Chief, ought to be extended to the expenditure which is now under the Master-General, as the commander-in-chief of the Artillery and Engineers. It may be true, as the right, hon. baronet says, that the office itself, being quite dis tinct in its nature, will, by the creation of a Secretary of State for War, lose a great deal of its importance. I think it would be an advantage if the house could see the who!o expenditure for maintaining the personnel of the army put before the house from time to time, as much as possible, by the head. (Hear, hear.) There have been a great many things done by the Secretary-at-War which did not strictly devolve upon him, but which the Colonial Minister could not do—(Hear)—and in that way there is no doubt many functions have been performed by him of late years which had better have been performed by some other officer. I still stand out for this, however, if you mean to coatinuo the steadiness with which the financial check has been brought to bear on the expenditure of the army, and which I have shown is so necessary to its good government and economy, you must maintain the office of Secretary at-War as a separate office. But the right hon. gentleman says there ought not to be two Cabinet Ministers. I will not discuss that question with him. I have looked at this matter with perfect impartiality, I believe, and without any party feeling—(cheers) ; and so far from attempting to prevent change I have urged change. I have very freely expressed before Parliament my own opinions as to what evils should be remedied, and how they should be remedied. I have made no secret of those opinions. At this moment I confess I am sorry to hear the right hon. baronetobject to there being two Cabinet Ministers, one for the manage ment of the war, and the other for the interior of the army, but having been a long time Secretary -at-War, I felt my knowledge of details might he of some value in enabling the Government, in the work of fusion, to distribut e th e duties of the several departments. (Cheers.) I thought I should not be justified in asking myself in this crisis whether the office I hold should be abolished, and I therefore wil lingly undertook to continue the duties which I now per form. lam sorry the right honourable baronet dis approves of my so doing, but I can only say that the as sistance which I have given shall continue to be given ; and while I refuse to accept the challenge to lay on the table a detailed plan of every change or alteration that may at present be in contemplation—knowing the danger of meddling with a great department of the Government, upon the efficiency of which at this moment depends the safety and much of the success of one of the finest armies that ever went forth to confront an enemy—(cheers)—but hav ing at the same time a perfectly distinct conception that the object we ought to aim at is the redistribution of the duties of the offices in question—l trust the house will not deprive the Government of that assistance and confidence which are necessary to enable them to bring these changes to a good issue, taking care to proceed step by step ; and if time and the opportunity be given us for doing that, 1 feel satisfied wo can eventually introduce into the military de partments of the State changes which will greatly enhance their efficiency, and on which even now depend the honour and the safety of this country. (Loud cheers.) Colonel DONNE said, with respect to the proposed transfer of the management of barracks, it so happened that at this moment, when the great body of our troops were abroad, that subject was of the very least importance. The Secretary at War had adverted to the separation of the civil and military departments of the Ordnance. He thought it would be exceedingly difficult to understand the difference between the civil and military departments, and still more to effect their separation. He expressed his gratiScation that the management of the militia was not to be removed from the department of the Home Secretary, for if the country could not have the services of the noble lord at the head of the war department, it ought at least to have the satisfaction of seeing the militia left entirely in his hands. (Hear, hear.) Mr. G. M. BUTT expressed his surprise at the speeches of the noble lord the President of the Council and the right hon. the Secretary at War. When called upon to vote the estimates fur this new department, the committee might at least expect to be furnished with some clear explanation of the new office and the duties of the officers. Nothing of the sort had, however, been vouchsafed, and the speeches to which he had referred could only be understood on the ground that it was thought necessary to appoint an addi tional high officer of State at a large salary, with a consider able staff to assist him. He did not think that the coun try would consent to the appointment of a second Cabinet officer, if there was to be no consolidation of the duties of the various departments. The vote was then agreed to. THE BRIBERY BILLS, &c. The house then went into committee on the Bribery Bills. Clauses 22 to 25 inclusive were agreed to without com ment. On elause 26 being proposed, - - -- -- - Mr. LIDDELL moved its omission from the bill on the ground that its provisions would involvo the candidate in serious penalties for acts even of the most laudable and necessary character, even those of the payment of money on his own private account, unless such payments were made through the election officer. Lord J. RUSSELL expressed his opinion that the result of the omission of the clause would be, in many cases, to render nugatory the appointment of the election officer. He was favourable to the retention of the clause, and ap proved its principle, but thought that some mitigation might be safely made in the extent of the penalty which it enforced. He suggested, therefore; that, instead of mis demeanour, the penalty should be fixed at 50 pounds; and, if thought necessary, Parliament might hereafter incr.?age its severity. Mr. G. M. BUTT considered the clauso essential to the bill, and approved the mitigatory suggestion of the noble lord. I Lord R. GROSVENOR suggested that the magistrate should have power to inflict a lower amonnt of penalty in cases where the offence did not appear to be of a flagrant y y char ac t er. Mr . W. J. FOX supported the retention of the clause. If the wor d " misdemeanour" was to be withdrawn, the penalty ought to b e ver considerabl increased. Sir F. KELLY opposed the amendment. If they au thorised th e payment of any expanses relating to an elec tion except to or through the election officer, they would open the door to a large expenditure in bribing, treating, , and other co rrupt practices. (Hear.) 1 Mr, W , WILLIAM regretted that the noble lord had content to have no provision with regard to payment for publication. It would be greatly advantageous to the public as well as to the candidates that publication should take place ; the public would be great gainers by the pub lication; and he was quite satisfid to allow the question of publicity to settle itself. . . JAMAICA LOAN BLLL. On the motion of Mr. WILSON this bill passed through committee. CHANCERY AMENDMENT BILL. On the motion of the SOLICITOR-GENERAL this bill was red a second time, and ordered to be committed on Friday_ COURT OF CHANCERY (COUNTY PALATINE OF LANCASHIRE) BILL. On the motion of the SOLICITOR-GENERAL this bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed. REGISTRATION OF BILLS OF SALE (IRELAND) Mr. HEADLA.M agreed in thinking the newspapers would compete for the publication, but that argument was not conclusive against the clause, as a precedinc , clause provided for one authentic copy being exhibited, from which the newspapers would make publication. Mr. HILDYARD said it wasquite clear thehousewould be guilty of a great constitutional mistake if it cad any burden on the particular body or district which returned members. The constitutional law was that they were members, not for the benefit of this or that place, but for the benefit of the nation. If the expense was to be borne by the public, it must come out of the public purse, for whosa benefit they sat there, if they sat there for the benefit of anybody, which people out of doors doubted. (A laugh.) To throw any expense on a particular place would be recognising that the member for that place was bound to look exclusively to their interests. The amendment was withdrawn. On the question that the clause stand part of the bill, Lord J. RUSSELL submitted that it was a very valu able clause, which he hoped the committee would adopt. It was very trite there would bo compstition to publish these accounts, but nobody could say, unless there were an authorised publication, that it wouldl be a fair and correct publication. The newspapers of one party would give cer tain extracts from the accounts, and the newspapers of the other party would give certain other extracts, but there would not be a fair publication of the official copy of the accounts. He thought it very desirable the constituents should know what sum had been expended, and how that account was made up. Mr. HILDYARD objected to the clause altogether, and assured the house the expense of these publications would be very heavy in counties where there were a great many polling places, and a corresponding number of items. The committee divided— For the clause ' 178 Against it 94 Majority --84 The clause was accordingly agreed to, as was also clause 30. BILL. This bill was read a third time and passed. MEDICAL GRADUATES (UNIVERSITY OF LONDON) BILL. On the motion that this bill'be read a third time, Mr. COWAN expressed a hope that it would be post poned until the next session. After some discussion the third reading was postponed till Thursday. SALE OF BEER, &c., BILL. Mr. W. P NTTE lc moved the second reading of this bill. Mr. SCHOLEFIELD said he would oppose the bill unless the hon. member would agree to extend the time of closing public-houses on Sunday evenings from nine o'clock until ten. On clause 31 being proposed, Mr. BENTINCK called attention to the fact, that up to the present time no precaution had been taken with re spect to the character of the person to be appointed elec tion officer. Sir F. KELLY said that means would be taken to have the duties of the election officer efficiently performed byimposing penalties for the non-performance of them. If an election officer were guilty of embezzlement or ran away, he would be indictable and liable to punishment. It was originally pro posed to appoint a barrister, but the proposal was met both in the committee and in the house with universal disapprobation. He would be exceedingly indebted, and he was sure the Government would also be indebted, to any hon. gentleman who would frame a clause to meet the difficulty of the case. Mr. BENTINCK did not see that there was much use in indicting a man who had gone to America. He did not see anything in the clause to enforce the payment of money, or the return of documents in the hands of an election officer at the time of his death by heirs. Mr. J. BALL suggested there should be a power of ap• peal against the domination of an improper p er son. Mr.HILDYARD thought that security should be given that the person who was appointed should not be a person who was capable of absconding, and thereby preventing an investigation into the practices that had taken place. The clause was then agreed to. On clause 32 being proposed, Lord SEYMOUR, wished to know how an agent was to act who was going about the country incurring expenses ; should he take the election officer with him, or should he return to the election officer to have the expenditure ap proved of ? Sir F. KELLY stated that the candidate would appoint his agent in writing, and notify the appointment to the election officer, so that every person interested in the elec tion might know who the agents were that the candidate had appointed. Mr. LABOUCHERE wished to receive some explana tion of what was meant by an agent. Sir F.-KELLY replied that an agent was indicated by the payment of money, but a person could not be consi dered an agent because he had conveyed a letter or per formed a small matter of that kind. Mr. B. DENISON said, that if agency were to be con fined under this clause to the payment of money, it should be so stated. Mr. HENLEY said that it was rather hard to ask the house to pass a clause directing a candidate to make a de claration, when they did not know what he was to declare. He thought that they should have some more precise defi nition of the word "agent" than was contained in the bill. He did not see w this clause could be carried out in the case—not a very unfrequent one—in which a person was nominated without his knowledge. He would then be a "candidate," and as such would by this clause be compelled to inform the election officer of the name of his agent, although in fact he had none and knew nothing about the matter. ➢ir. V. SCULLY suggested that the words "if any'' should be inserted after the word " agent." He did this in order to meet the case of a candidate not having an agent. - Mr. G. H. VERNON asked if it would be possible to insert a provision to make some one answerable for the expenditure, in the place of the candidate, in cases where the latter was nominated without his knowledge. Could they not, in such a case, throw the responsibility upon his proposer. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL thought that some pro vision should be inserted to enable some one, in the absence of a candidate, to do what he might and ought to do if present, otherwise the current expenses could not be paid. Sir F. KELLY also thought that some provision was requisite to meet the case of a candidate nominated with out his knowledge. It would, however, be impossible to insert words with that object in the present clause. He would undertake to framo a clauso which, if assented to by the house, might be inserted on bringing up the report. Lord ADOLPHUS V. TEMPEST then moved that the following provision should be added to the clause : " And no person being a candidate at any election, or hav ing been elected, who shall have made the declaration re quired by this act, and shall in all things have well and truly conformed thereto, and shall not have been guilty of any contravention of this act, shall be liable civilly or cri minally, nor shall his election be questioned by reason of any illegal act clone by any other person than his agent or agents named and notified to the election officer, accord ing to the provisions of this act, unless such illegal act shall be proved to have been done by or with his authority , or sanction : Provided always, that nothing herein con tained shall be deemed to legalise any controverted elec tion, or to affect the jurisdiction of a select committee of the House of Commons over any election which shall be shown to have been obtained by bribery or any other ille gal act or acts or practices." - The ATTORNEY-GENERAL opposed the amendment, and said he believed all tha good which the bill was calcu lated to effect would be very dearly purchased if such an innovation was introduced. It had been hitherto held that candidates were responsible for the acts of their agents, at least in a Parliamentary sense, if not in a legal one. Mr. WA LPOLE thought that the clause proposed by his noble friend simply provided that, before the seat of a member was taken away, or before a candidate was affected by the consequences of bribery, treating, and undue in fluence, it should be shown that such acts were done, not merely by his friends, but with his implied or expressed authority, or were subsequently sanctioned by him. He did not think this amendment proposed anything like the introduction of a now law, but wa s r a ther the recognition of an old law. Lord D. STUART supported the proposition of the hon. member for Birmingham. After a few remarks from Mr. F. CROSSLEY, Mr. IV. PAT EN agreed to the suggestion of the hon. member for Birmingham. The bill was read the second time. The Returning-officer Bill passel through committee. At the suggestion of the SOLICITOR-GENERAL, Mr. PELLATT withdrew the Letters Patent for Inven tions Bill. Caledonian Hunt ,ll Warwick Autumn 17 Richmond 18 Newmarket H .23 Worcester Autumn 31 Mr. G. P. BENTINCK thought that the house was bound to apply some rem e dy t o th e very anomalous at state of the law on this questi on . The case of agents present solely on the caprice of election committeesrested of the house, and he hoped that if the amendment of his noble friend was not carried, those who had charge of the bill would themselves adopt some provision to remedy this anomalous, if not absurd, state of things. Mr. HEADLAM opposed the adoption of the amend ment, which he considered opened a i side door to bribery and corruption. The candidates , if t were carried, might reap with impunity all the a dvantages of such acts. Mr. AGLIONBY also opposed the amendment. Lord J. RUSSELL feared th at the proviso would greatly embarrass the operations of the bill, and that there would be danger in the principle. The committee divided, when the numbers were— For the amendment Against it 143 Majority The amendment was, therefore, lost; and the clause, as amended, was ordered to stand part of the bill. The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again on Thursday. STAMP DUTIES BILL. The house then went into committee on this bill, and resumed the consideration of its clauses. Clause 9 having been agreed to, several new clauses were brought up by Mr. WILSON, and incorporated in the bill. Mr. VANCE moved the addition of the following clause : —" Whereas it is expedient to reduce the stamp duty now payable on deeds of submission and award in cases of arbi tration ; be it enacted that the stamp duty of 355., now ' payable on deeds o f su b m i ss i on an d award in cases o arbi tration, shall be reduced t o th e sum o f 20 5. " Mr. WILSON said this was a bill for re-distributing and not reducing the stamp duties, and therefore there was no reason for reducing this particular duty any more than there was for reducing any other of the duties. The committee divided, when the numbers were For the clause Against it lO5 b Majority The clause was therefore lost. The remaining clauses were agreed to, the CHAIRMAN reported progress, and the house resumed. STANDARD OF GOLD AND SILVER WARES BILL. The house went into committee on this bill, the various clauses of which were agreed to. The house having resumed, the order for the third read ing of the Wreck and Salvage Bill was discharged. JOINT-STOCK BANKS (SCOTLAND) BILL. This bill was read a third time and passed. POOR-LAW CONTINUANCE (IRELAND) BILL. On the order for the third reading of this bill, Colonel DUNNE asked for an inquiry into the expenses of the commissi on , w hi c h he characterisd as extravagant, PUBLIC WORKS.--The Boa r d o f P u bli c W or k s are a t and also into the administration of the law in Ireland. present busily employed. The old mansion adjoining Lord Mr. J: BALL denied that the expenses of the commis- Harrington's, in Whitehall, is being prepared for the new sion wereextravagant, and, notwithstanding it wasa quater- Secretary of War. The mansion of the late Duke of past . one o'cl oc k, an d i n spite of unmistakeable manifesta - Leeds, in St. James's-square, and lately occupied by Mr. tons of impatience on the part of house, adduced statistics Lane Fox, has been purchased for the copyhold depart upon the subject. ment, the business of w hi c h h as h ereto f ore b een trans- Mr. BUTT, w ith a v i ew " to cut shor t th e debate," acted in Whitehall. It is in contemplation to surround moved its adjournment. the whole of Greenwich Park with rails. Sir JOHN YOUNG opposed the motion as unreason- FURTHER CLOSING OF PUBLIC-HOUSES ON SUNDAY. able, and promised that, during the recess, inquiries should be made into the powers and expenses of the corn. —The " Sale of B eer , & c., Bili , " j ust b rought in by Mr. mission. H e th oug ht th a t this assurance ought to be suf- Wilson Patten, proposes to provide, under a Si. penalty ficient, and could not consent to an inquiry into the whole for every sale, that public-hous es an d b eer - s h ops i n Eng working of the l aw , w ith w hi c h he believed the majority land and Wales shall not be open for the sale of spirits, of the Irish people were satisfied. wine, or beer (except to bona fide travellers or lodgers The house divided on the question of adjournment, and therein) between 2 and 6 o'clock, or after 9, on Sunday, the numbers were— Christmas-day, Good Friday, or any Fast or Thanks- For the motion 83 giving -d a y. Th ese h ouses wou ld then be open on l y f rom Against it —47 1 to 2, and from 6 t o 9 . A not h er c l ause prov id es th a t no Majority Mr. VANSITTART then moved the adjournment of the sale of fermented or distilled liuors or sell therein the house ; w h en , upon a division, there appeared q , such liquors on thos e d a y s , excep t as re f res hment for For the motion Against it Majority wine, beer, or other fermented or distilled liquors. Colonel DUNNE moved an amendment limiting the e • the names J.FOTHECARIES -HALL.— .o.lowing are existence of the new commission to two instead of four The house divided, when of the gentlemen who passed their examination in the years, as originally proposed. there appeared— science and practice of medicine, and received certificates For the motion 1854 : Thomas Webb, Against it Cheadle, Stafford s hi re; H enry Vale James, Leominster, Majority The bill was than reads time. Lancaster. .148 Day whcn made m From a-ha; When COUNTRIES. In General Post- P or t due Office, London,. Dispatched. Enu America (byßrit.pack)N Every Friday .. • . Liverpool ... America (by United Sts. packet) • • • • • • • • • . Liverpool ... July 19 America (by U. States .• ..... • So u th ampton, Au p l a t c rp lk l e oi t an ) *1 'July 4 ..... • Southampton A. 17611- st 4 Ditto (via Marseilles) NI ......... .. • Dover .... Ditto (via Cape of Good! tnia Hope) ............ N ; July • , „ nicer A Africa (West Coast) .. N l '.!3d of the month. Plymouth LLirriVe' Alexandria .......... N 8,9, 24, & 30 of tn. Dover Alexandria.... • .....M 4th & 20th of mon. Southampton Bahamas ........... 7.1117 th of the mon t; !Southampton, Belgium ...... • ... ..NlDally. •• •• Dover ...... Brazil ...... ......31,9th of the month.. Southamplon i Jull 16 Buenos Ayres i 9th of the m on th .. j Southampton 'July 16 Cape of Good 'lope N 'l4th of the 'Dont!, Plymouth .. Cape of Good Hope ..N 14th of the month. tiouthamplon Cape, de Verde ~N 1 14th of the month Southampton Ceylon (see India) Ceylon ~.,N 14th of the month i 1i- il ly 2 0 t • Channel Isles .• . • •• „N , Mon.,Wed &Frid Southampton iT , i• Citili 21 ;2(1 & ; 17titofmonth Sguthampton Jull " China (sec India) Constantinople ......N 7,8,17,21,&27 °rm. Dover , Constantinople 4th & 20th of mo n . Southampton' 111 Cont. of Europe 21 & NiTwice daily ...... Dover .. To Egypt (see India) I •„dll O l France . ..... & NlTwice daily ,• .• • . Dover Gibraltar 7, 17, 20, 27 of in. l B.nuthampton 'July A " Greece (see India) I Greytown & 17th of mon. : Southampton (July 16 Hamburgh ..........N Tue s d ay & Edda.) , London .....I Savannah 11 t 2nd of the monti Southampton Aug. Holland Dally „ „ „ D ove , f . Honduras of the month.;Southampton 'JuIY India (vlaSouthampt.)2ll4th & 20th of Rion.: Plynnuth India (via Marseilles)M l Bth& 24th of month !Dover lonian Isles (see India)!7, 17, & 27 of moniDover.. . • • • ! 11/ Ireland ........M & N ; Twi ce d a i ly ...... !Flols head ..„(10 Lisbon .......• • Ml 7, 9, 17, &27 of in. Southampton lu/Y ` 6 Madeira ....2119th of the month Southamptori•JuiY ~ Madeira ............Nl23d of month .... Plymouth .. Malta (see India) Malta ...... ••• 7,17,12,27, 30 ofm. Dover July 20 Mauritius (see India) 1 MauritluS ..........Nll4th of the month Mexico ..... „It 2nd of the m on th. S ou th amp t on Aug. 1 Naples ...... ........N . 15 thl 5 th25thormon Dover ...... New Granada ...... 3j 2d & 17th of month Southampton New Zealand „ Ily private ship .. V ar i ous port Uncerto Papal States •„N s thlsth2 s dhormon. Dover ...... Peninsula „ „ 7 th l7 th 2B thofmon Southampton Peru „, „ M ?d & 27th of m on Southampton .Tu• , Yl6 Port Natal ..........N 14th of the month! Plymouth .. Sicily N s th ls th 22 tholmon, , Dover Tuscany „ 15 th 25 thotinon.1Dover Venezuela .. „ ......Mi2d& 17th of month Southampton jll7l. 16 Van Diemen's Lan cl (seei 1 Australia) . . ........At I West Indies !2d& 17th o! m on th i S outh ampton . .l . lllv 16 . 1 When any of these dates fall o i a Sunday, the mails I* despatched on the following day, with the eaceptien of the indid. the Southampton), and the Malta, both o f w hi ch will bo despatc h () preceding day. [ADVERTISEMENT.] Her M a j es t y ' s R oya l Lett er Patent, for valuable and extraordinary improvements the most powe r f u l an d b r il l i ant Telescopes, Camp, l'al3 course, Opera, and P erspect i ve Glasses (glazed °ld Munic German Glass), to know the distances objects viewed through them—of great importsll3, to the army, navy, and others. Messrs. S. an d fly. Solorpons, optician s , 39 , Alb emar l e -street, Piccsa'',o. Observe—opp os it e th e Y ork Hotel.—These telescopes P:"tli sess srch extraordinary powers that some 3A inches, or an extra ey e -pi ece , w ill s h ow distinctly Jupiter's Intl; ring,Saturn's and the d ou bl e s t ars; w ith t h e sam e scope can be seen a person's countenance three tulle a a half di s t an t , an d an object from 12 to 11 "„4e"o They are of larger an d a ll s i zes , w ith increasing P°'fbie, a cco rdingly.—The R o y a l E x hibiti on, 1851.— V a lus iro newly-invent e d, ver y sma ll , power f ul waistcoat-po ck glass the s i ze o f a wa l nu t , b y w hi c h a person can b e °e and know n Li m il e di s t an t ; th ey answer every PurP-n s. on the race-course, and at the opera-houses, country 8 1 : 03 , nery, and ships are c l ear ly seen a t 5 t o 6 m il es . o are invaluable for shooting, deer-stalking, yachting' ro , sportsmen, gentlemen, gamekeepers, and tourists. OP e r fal race-course, camp, and perspective glasses, with wonds l o power ;an object can be clearly seen from 10 to 12 , i , distant. Newly-i nven t e d S pec t ac l es ; immediately tPerf are placed before ext reme ly i mper f ect vision, evaa• object becomes clear and distinct; the most aged , fective eight is brought to its youthful, natural, and ° O.. gival state. Deafness—Now Discovery —The Organic te a brator, au extraordinary powerful, small, newlysinvt e s, instrument, for Deafness, entirely different from all other s ' to surpass anything of the kind that has been, or probw' be ever can be, produced. Being of the same colour 3 5 ,_ t a skin, is not ' perceptible ; it enables deaf persons to 0 , e 3. distinctly at church and at public assemblies ; the unlm,%. sant sensation of singing noises in the ears is entirelY.„'i c l moved; and it affords all the assistance that possibly 0 °„" e , be desired.-39, .Albemarle-street, Piccadilly. OW"' opposite the York Hotel. BIRTHS. OF A SON. On the 13th inst., at the Rectory, Stoke Newington, the wife of the Rev. Thos. Jackson. On the 14th inst., at 18, Russell-street, Bath, the w i fs of J. T. Craster, Esq., HAI. 38th Regiment. OF A DAUGHTER. On the 13th inst., at the Vicarago, Great Walt/ 051i ' Essex, the wife of the Rev. J. H. Dyer. of On th 3 14th inst., at 2, Bayswater-terrace, the Wif e Joseph Charlier, Esq. MARRIED. A p rio On the 13th inst ., at St. Luke's , Chelsea, Fr 13 ,!;„, -- r. Saintsbury, Esq., of the Bank of England, to Sarah ki;, - e r lotte, second daughter of Robert Lemon, E sq ., of m Majesty's State-Paper Office. DIED. 1 On the 14th inst., at Dunchureb, Mary Amelia, w ic 10 0 of General Samuel Dalrymple, late of the Coldstre° Guards, aged 72. On the 15th inst., at Highgate, Thomas Clarke, B sq. ' solicitor to the Board of Ordnance, aged 65. ea On the 14th inst., at 20, Queen- s t ree t, M a yf a ir, / if five weeks, of hooping cough, Blanche, only child of Henry Vavasour, Bart. On the 14th inst., at Bayswater, Ellen Matilda 05 .„, lig e ll o: ton James, eldest daughter of Colonel ll aug hton tbm' of the Bombay Army. LONDON : Printed and Published by MURDO of No-. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, Nov' of Strand, in the Precinct of Sa,voy, thj courPl Vddlt4o B DlONdtq f Ji4y 18, 1884 _ THE OXFORD BILL. In reply to a question from Sir J. PAKINGTON, Lord J. RUSSELL said there were so many important bills which had not yet gono up to the House of Lords, and so many votes of supply which had not yet been sub mitted to the house, that he had been obliged to postpone the consideration of the Lords' amendments to the Ox ford Bill till Thursday week, at 12 o'clock. He would pro ceed with supply on the evening of Thursday first. Sir J. YOUNG obtained leave to introduce a bill for amending the laws relating to the militia, and raising a volunteer militia force in Ireland. Mr. FITZROY obtained leave to introduco a bill to con tinue the exemption of inhabitants from liability to be rated as such in respect of stock in trade or otaer property to the relief the poor. Mr. MONSELL obtained leave to introduce a bill to facilitate the purchase of common, commonable, and other rights by the principal officers of her Majesty's Ordnance. Mr. PELLATT obtained leave to introduce a bill to emend the provisions of the marriage acts relating to Dis senters. The house adjourned at a quarter-past two. SPORTING INTELLIGE.IN7CE. TATTER SAL L'S -YESTERDAY. Thanks to Ammonia, there was a very pleasant re viver for the fielders in the settlement of the accounts connected with the recent meeting at Aintree. Much of the depression which previously existed was manifestly removed. For a long time past loss had followed loss in almost uninterrupted succession, so surely were the favourites, in most instances, " spotted" against them. On coming events only a comparatively small amount of business was transacted. Tros, said to have been tried very satisfactorily, was in great force for the Goodwood Stakes ; at 7 and 6 to 1 a considerable sum of money was invested. Happy was firm at the odds quoted. Diana under suspicion ; at one time she receded to 10 to 1, but, after a slight rally, 9to 1 was taken to 501. The Crusader was re markably quiet, considering the very active part he played in the betting at Liverpool. LEGEll.—After 4 to 1 had been taken about King Tom to nearly 1001.. 5 to 1 was bettied in fifties. At the close, however, 400 to 100 was booked. TAB DERBY.—Throughout the afternoon a lively in terest was created by the introduction of a new favou rite bearing the " taking" title of the Lord of the Isles. He is by Touchstone, out of Fair Helen, and is training at William Day's. He is engaged at the Lavant and Molecomb Stakes, next week, at Goodwood. At the commencement 40 to 1 was laid, but so warm was the support ho received, that at the close scarcely 25 to 1, was obtainable. 1,000 to 100 taken in one bet about Grmculus Esuriens, 1,000 to 50 Cruiser, 1,000 to 25 and 400 to 10 Moonbeam colt, and 1,000 to 15 Rambling Katie. The prices at the close were as follow : BURGHLEY. STAKES (STAMFORD.) Even on Mr. Payne's Cock Pheasant. GOODWOOD STAKES. 5 to 1 agst Mr. Harrison's Heapy (6 to 1 taken) 11 to 2 agst Lord Zetland's Tros (G to 1 taken freely) 9 to 1 agst Mr. Howard's Diana (taken) 20 to 1 agst Mr. J. Stanley's Crusader (taken) 20 to 1 agst M. Lupin's Jouvence (taken) 25 to 1 agst Mr. E. Parr's Newbold (taken) 25 to 1 agst Mr. T: Parr's Jonathan Martin (taken) 5 to 1 agst Messrs. Greville and Payne's " lot" (taken: dOODWOOD CUP. 7 to 4 on Mr. Howard's Virago 10 to 1 agst Mr. T. Parr's Rataplan (taken) ST. LEGER. 4 to 1 agst Baron Rothschild's King Tom (taken) DERBY. 10 - to 1 agst Mr. Bowes's Grteculus Esuriens (taken) 20 to 1 agst Lord Dorchester's Cruiser (taken) 15 to 1 agst Mr. Merry's Lord of the Isles (taken) 40-to 1 agst Mr. Parr's cby Van Tromp out of Moon beam (taken) 1000 to 15 agst Lord John Scott's Rambling Katie (taken) RACING FIXTURES FOR 1854. JULY. Liverpool l2 Abingdon l3 Ipswich 13 Stourbridge l7 Nottingham Great Grimsby Goodwood Radcliffe ..24 05 Stamford Newton 18 Knutsford... l9 AII( Deritend Pool 3 Ripon Brighton Airdrie Durham 3 Brighton Club 4 Ripon 7 Yarmouth 8 North Staffordshire 8 Reading Lewes lO Wolverhampton UST. SEPT: War wick Lichfield Western Meeting 7 Rochester and Chatham_ 7 Egham l5 Folkestone, llythe, and Sandgate l7 York ... .... ...... 23 Hereford 24 Eccles 2B Chelmsford 29 Derby 29 Plymouth Lincoln 3l :111BER. Doncaster 12 Pontefract 18 Bedford .19 0 CTI Chester Autumn 3 Kelso 3 Yorkshire Union Hunt 5 Wrexham 5 Newmarket S 0 9 Leicester 2O Manchester Autumn 2l Lanark 25 Newmarket F 0 26 Walsall Northallerton 2B CI?ICKET. THE GENTLEMEN v. THE PLAYERS. This great annual match was commenced yesterday at Lord's when something like 2,000 spectators were upon the ground. At the commencement of the match the betting in the pavilion was 6 to 4 on the players, but at the close of the day the odds were stol on them. This was the state of the score when time was called : GENTLEMEN. First Innings. Mr. W. Nicholson, c Bickley, b Wisden Hon. H. S. Ponsonby, c Lockyer, Second Innings, b Wisden 4r. A. Haygarth, b Grundy.. Mr. H. Vernon, b Wisden Mr. C. Charles, b Grundy..... Mr. E. Balfour, b Wisden Mr. F. Walker, b Grundy Mr. E. T. Drake, c Wisden, b Martingell 6 c Challen, b Wisden.. 0 Mr. C. D. Marsham, b Martiugell 1 ->ir F. Bathurst, b Wisden l2 Mr. A. Payne, not out b 25 run. out 2 6 2 20 1 lbwb Grundy ll 9 2 Ib2 Total 95 PLAYERS. Total 29 First Innings. 27 Dean, b Drake Grundy, b Bathurst John Lillywhite, st Nicholson, b Drake .... Lockyer, c Balfour, b Payne l4 Wisden, b Payne Martingell, run out Adams, b Drake Clifford, b Payne Mortlock, not out Challen, b Marsham Bickley, st Nicholson, b Drake B 7, w 2 Total The match was resumed this morning. IBER. COUNTRY MARKETS. CHELMSFORD--JuLY 14. We had a good supply of wheat for the time of year, with a very dull trade, and last week's prices were barely maintained. Spring corn of all sorts without alteration, excepting barleys, which were scarce, and the turn dearer. Prices to-day were as follow :—Wheat, white, old 578 Od to 805 Od, new 57s to 818 ; red, old 47s to 755, new 478 to 758; barley, 27s to 35s ; chevalier, 33s to 38s ; grinding, 21s to 303 ; malt, 71 s t o 75s ; chevalier, 74s to 78s; oats, 268 to 338; peas, partridge, 40s to 45s ; white, 478 to 49 .4 ; boiling 54s t o 6 . : s ; d un, new, 40s to 42s ; beans, tick, 415 to 44s ; Harrow ticks, 398 to 47s ; Mazagan, 40s to 448. COLCHESTER —JULY ]5. We had a fair supply of wheat to this day's market. The weather being warmer and more summerlike has had its influence on prices, and wheat was only taken by con sumers at 2s and 33 per qr. under last week's rates. In spring corn very little doing at declining prices. Prices to-day were as follow :—Wheat, white, 764 to 86'; red, 68s to 768 ; barley, 34s to 388 ; oats, 303 to 34s ; beam, Mazagan, 42s to 44s ; middle and small, 46s to 483 ; Pea' , white, 56s to 603 ; grey, 42s to 445. , &C,, receive 1 is ports, from Official Statement of the Quantities of Corn, in the port of London, from the followi❑ the 10th to the 15th July, both inclusive. T. 4 ; ; ; 1561 40 575 - I Colchester Harwich Leigh Maldon - - - 43ti SIItIiCALDY—JuLY 15. Here to-day we had small supplies of all kinds of grain. Sales slow. "Barley and oats were 6d to is per qr. lower. Wheat sold to consumers at from is to 2s per qr. illor ° money than on last market clay. Wheat. Barley. f Oats. I BeanS• 1 First Second 34s Od 34s Od I Os 0 0 1 I Third s4s Od 3)s Oct 32s Od lOs Oatmeal, per bag of 2801bs imperial, 00s Od to 008 Od. ABERDEEN—JULY 14. The prices of grain to-day are —O a t s, 28 s Od t o 29 s 0(1. 40 lbs per bushel; new oats, OOs Od to OOs Cd, 401bs Pe r bushel ; bere, 29s 0(1 to 31s 0(1, 531bs per bushel barley, 298 0(1 to 31s Od, 531b s per bushel ; wheat, red, 608 041 61s Od, 621133 per bush e l ; wheat, white, 603 Od to 68s Od , 6'3lbs per bushel. ' • oatmeal, 23s Od t o 24 s Od per boil; flour, 55s Od to 57s Od per sack. P r o v i s i ons —B ee f , per lb , 6(1 to 9d ; mutton, ditto, 6tl to 8d ; veal, ditto, Gd to 8 ,1 ; pork, per lb, Os 6d to Os 8d ; salmon, per lb, is Od to Os 0 d; rabbits, each, Od t o Od ; t a ll ow, per stone, 5s 9d to Os Cd ; potatoes, per peck, 16d to Os 0(1; butter, per lb 9d to 10d eggs, per doz, Os 8d t o O s 9d ; hens, per pair, 3s Od d te 3s 6d ; chicken s , ditt o , O s 0 . 1 t o 3s Od; ducks, ditto, 2s o to 3s 0 1 ; duckli ngs , d i tt o, 2 8 6d to Os Od ; t u rkeys, 4s to 5s 0 I to 5s Od ; geese, ditto, 3s Od to 4s Od ; butter for exportation (present cure), per cwt, 84s to OOs Ot t ; ditto (summer cured), OOs to OOs Od ' • eggs, wholesale prier,' per dozen, sd. to 5.)d ; 41b loaf, 9d ; 21b loaf, 4id ; r" fine small, Os Od to O s Od ; pork, arge, Os Od to Os ()(1 lamb, per qr., 6s to 7s 6(1 ; cheese, per imperial sten o ' 5s 6(.1 to COAL MARK. Prices of Coal per ton at t' ET.—Juty 15. he close of the market. s. d.l Bate's West Hartley 18 0 Burnhope l5 6 . Chester Main 1 Holywell l7 h i .19 61 Howard's West Hartley Netherton 19 6, North Percy Hartley _lB 61 Redheugh Main 16 01 Taufield Moor l7 01 Taufield Moor Butes 17 31 South Taufield 16 61 West Pelton l6 O. Walker Primrose l5 6 1 Wylam l9 6 Wallsend, ao. P. d• Belmont . 6 19 i ßraddyll 2O 3 Hetton 2l ° Haswell 21 0 Lambton 20 . .. 6 ,Lumley l9 ". Peusher 19 ° Plummer 2O 0 Riehmund l9 6 Russell's Hetton 20 3 South Hetton SO . Cassop l9 u Hetton Hartlepool 2O 0 Heugh Hall 19 6 West Kelloo l9 3 South Kelloo 19 . 6 0 Tees 2l IThoruley 10 3 Whitworth lB ° n Derweutwater Hartley. o ~- 0 0 Carr's Merthyr .. 26 Wallsend., &c. Harton lB 9 Hilda 18 is New Whitworth l6 6 Fledley 18 6 Wharneliffe lB 6 Eden Main 20 0 Bell l9 6 SEABORNE MAILS. (N sigulfles that the mails are sent from the General Post-oON by the night—and M by the morning —despatch.)