The Sun. — London, England, 1830-02-10 00:00:00

, coal of the the di !lab on e nsiono on the , a de notving r much existed, erobar. i a wi" to the , e „ Sir 16011 of an Ivo' Friend. ie pe o the Irussion It from% .occur le, an-! ear , PP -d rer an" tention nt duty rcas ore► could rt as to 'f Dom" t Court which , e, kow regula- to our le latter nfirrna- minute ,ere was an an- i of Sir lancery. inion of e higher eman in gems to ed on a person ' s er ; and night he nbiguons at mean- ich a do- vas often ig of pri itnes only the ease him that ght per ' the fol pon the t, when vith him ng to so on to upon the inot an- L what I rtain ex ore apon notions ,ccording my con ►hen he ns of him Houee iisplayed who was such im n. The question over and td under feeling, to evince f English being the Friend's n of the :ie Noble .8 against st excite at court. on before King in he pre how had Govern -but at ted upon , that on t was rn rd Chief t at thii le J adze rnuc s in Le natives dee-- w as acts tted the oh- ire in'vt might be es. shott'd ney, and red, th It esputch 6 had beat dictated by a spirit of humanity, and in which, if there bere some expressions too warm, they ought to excused, as admitting cf a satisfactory explana ti°a• This was not the first time that and] transactions had occurred in India. Shortly after the first instill ,4l of a supreme court, and the introduction of our laws Into that country, a collision took plat:. between Sir Elijah , I4 "'Pey and Warren Hastings, with respect to which Par 'lament was obliged to interfere. A prodigious sensation l'as then created'. in this country and in India by that col ; and upon that, as on the present occasion, no doubt "eh party was actuated by conscieutdous motives. as now, the Judges were on one side, and the Governor '1 Council were upon the other ; and then, as now, so far as the decisions went, it appeared that the Judges were decidedly wrong. In the preamble of the Bill which Passed the Legislature on the occasion of the former colli -14", after reciting the difficulties and inconveniences occa sioned by it, these memorable words were introduced : " And whereas it is expedient that the native inhabitants of our Indian territories shall be maintained and protected Ira the enjoyment and exercise of their ancient laws, 'lanes, rights, and privileges." What could be more to the purpose than this ? Where was a better vindication to be found for the Noble Lord's letter, which was directed towards the accomplishment of this very object ? That was the purpose for which, among others, the Act of 1761 _was passed. It a l s o d e fined the duties of the Supreme , "urt, and in order to prevent the possibility of the oc currence of such unfortunate circumstances as arose out of disputes like the present, its riglits and privileges were fi led, so that in this case no declaratory law was neces larY• He should not have satisfied himself if he had per tnitted his Nol/le Friend still to labour under the charges that had been brought against him. His only wish was that the Nobly Lord had had a more competent advocate. Ile did not mean to say, that looking at the letter AS it appeared in the newspapers, there was nothing contained in it against which objections might be taken, but he had Pointed out one of the errors that had crept into the news paper copies of the letter, and in the name of his Noble Friend 1:e took this opportunity to disclaim all intention of producing such an effect as had been imputed to him with respect to lowering the character and dignity of the judi cial office in India. Mr. STEWART pressed upon the House the necessity of an immediate inquiry into the administration of justice Si our Indian possessions, particularly as regarded the pro ceedings of the provincial courts, which depended solely upon the local governments, and were exposed to the operation of influence inconsistent with the administration of impartial justice. The Hon. Gentlemen proceeded to allud e to an opinion expressed by the present Master of the Rolls, on occasion of an appeal to the Privy Council from the award of one of the provincial courts of India. Th °Pinion was most unfavourable to the mode in which Justice was administered in such courts, and characterized their proceedings as disgraceful in the extreme ; and con trary to every principle of law and justice. The controul exercised over these courts by the local governments was not overlooked by Sir John Leach, who expressed his in tention to icy the matter before the Board of Contreul. It It Wall not wonderful if, under such circumstances, the 'natives of India were dissatisfied with the administration of justice, if not positively averse from the operation of English law. He did not admit their alleged dislike to our laws, hut believed that they were dissatisfied with the application of them in the local courts. With regard to the extraordinary letter which had been written by the Noble Lord to Sir J. Malcolm, he was glad to find that the Noble Lord had got a copy of the letter, and it seemed evident, from the way in which he had obtained it, that the first use which Sir J. Malcolm t rade of this private and confidential letter, after reading it at his breakfast table (as no doubt he did), was to send it to Sir J. Grant. (Mr. G. Banks expressed his dissent.) Certainly he understood the Hon. Member to s ay, that Sir J. Grant sent a copy of the letter to his son, from whose hands it came into the possession of the Noble l '°rd ; and at the same time the Hon. Gentleman laboured to prove that the letter was strictly private and confider !iali while be showed that it was not so considered by Sir Malcolm, who handed it about publicly. This was the 'letter; which was merely private and confidential, which contained no official instructions to Sir J. ;Malcolm, and which, therefore, ought not to be noticed. He said that the letter was a disgrace to a Minister of the King.— (Hear, hear.)--The Hon. Gentleman stated that it was an answer to urgent communications from Sir J. Malcolm on Sh ,e'ubject of th e di s p u t es b e tw ee n the Supreme Court and the Governntent of Bombay. If so, lie trusted that they s hould have copies of these urgent communications upon l t t h i l n the table before l ong . It might else be stated that Sir J. appeared to have exceeded his legal authority by opposing th e p rocee dings of the Supreme Court : he should like to know by what law he could do this. The Hon. Member had read an extract from the preamble to an Act - of Parliament--lie wished the Hon. Gentleman had gone further, and mentioned the censure and recall of a Judge which took place in consequence of his having accepted offic e from a Governor-General. In 1780 or 1781, the 'Supreme Court was established. A dispute took place between a Judge (Sir Elijah limpey) and the Governor. The former having accepted a place in the Sudder Ailaw lut (the Company's Court) from the Governor-General, the matter came before Parliament, and it was resolved, by a majority of 55, in the year 1782, that the holding of i a place or office under the East India Company by a Su preme Judge, tended to create a deference and subserviency in the Supreme Court towards those over whose actions the Court was intended to exercise controul. An address was presented to his Majesty to recall Sir E. linpey, for accepting office under such circumstances; and further pro ceedings were adopted, to whein however, it was not now necessary to allude more particularly. What did this pre nettling prove, but that it was the object of the Legislature to have the Supreme Court independent of and uninflu enced by the governments of India? He should like to hear the Hon. Member state what law existed to justify any one—b e lie Governor or other functionary—in inter fering with th e proceedings of the Supreme Court. No authority,, of th at sort could be legally exercised, even on the Pretence of expediency; and that there existed any n of exp e di ency in this instance lie altogether denied. The interference in this case, therefore, was an- Accessary and unetlled for. He had spoken of the feel ringo resolutions; i on t h House on t h e matter as recor d e d i n f ormer ; anti if w e l oo k e d at t h e conc l u di ng c l ause o f ti e i s a e s chart er under which the Supreme Court at Bombay wee establish e d, we s h ould find it equally strong as to t h e pend ence and cuntrouled jurisdiction of that Court.— According2deagistrates, and to the words of th e charter, all governors, persons in authority in India, were strictly . charged, i n t h e exercise of their respective powers, to be a ' c ung, assisting, and obedient to the Court in all things, assirthey should answer the contrary at their peril. Had :•1* Malcolm acted i n o b e di en c e to the Supreme Court? -setae tue contrary—h e opposed it. Could a reasonable ITitchen settiloni o •i the d be sh own for his conduct ? He thought not.— lygurstio n that bad been raised was as to the juiis dolSupreme Court. Parliament alone could decide that question, and he trusted that it would be de - tided, very s h ort l y. He could not help regrett i ng t h at t h e alight, non. Gentleman had not proposed the appointment " f two or three Committees, instead of one, on this sub -3;". By such a mode, greater justice would have been e ta ._ . . "e to the qu es ti on , w hi c h cons i ste d o f var i ous di st i nc t br anches. a For instan ce , th e tr a d e between Great Bri tt'n and Chi na an d t h e tra d e b etween G reat B r i ta i n an d r irish India were totally distinct questions, and must be r !_7 i( led on different and distinct grounds. If, therefore, t runittees h a d b een appo i nte d t o i nqu i re i n t o eac h of _ l ese br anc h es, h e thought the course wou ld h ave b een P ref erable t o t h a t now propose d. P art i cu l ar l y b e was o f 1 .1 ) , !ldoe t h at a Committee or a Comm i ss i on should b e I tbsvitl i appo i nte d , to i nqu i re i nto t h e a d m i n i strat i on of ; t j " t iee in India • • • G. BANKES begged be might be allowed to say G I . d in explanation Ile had not said that Sir John ueant received a copy of the letter from Sir John Malco . lm. he ~!d ) . stated, that a copy of the letter had been received c -T John Grant, but he did not say, nor did he know, "oln whom 11: 11t. ' STEWART perfectly understood the Hon. Gent. 1, 4 0 . d merely inferred that the letter had been received A n , Sir J o h n Malco l m. wertr• LITTLETON begged to know if the Committee It t . t° report their opinisn to the Ilouse on this question? C o - " admitted on all hands to be a most important ques balthough he knew that the House was not t h ° : ll4 . l l . '' the report of a Committee, yet lie knew also that th e °Plnlt'd of a Committee had great weight bo . th upon howHOuse, with the Government, and on the public mind. he thought that the house, and not a Committee, ought to decide•of tl • In NM, a great question this neture • hen the renewal of the Company's charter was under 41 4 a nsid erat i on, the course mirsued by the House was to de g; from the Governmi nt its own views, which were . sji t tl ' in the sh a pe o f r e solutions. This course, as the re tnito,Prwredi was very erroneous. Then there was a Com 14,t.''c of the whole House, and evidence was beard at the ip p ; but the in conven i e nce of this mode became quickly fee r a L e nti and the consideration of the subject was trans - Po st - „, • t ° a Committee up stairs. That Committee re- Ce le ': no opini on ; it merely reported the evidence from Eigh; ° „ ti rne- Now, he was sure that the speech of the . ebee . "". Gent. would be extremely well received by the veNtri% declaring, as it did most explicitly, that the Go- All %bent" eohad taken nofixed resolution on t subect.— uld be demanded or expected was a he free injquiry Ile did, however, hope that it was not intended to invite the Committee to report their opinion upon a great and im portant question like tha. ali% PEEL said, that lie had already expressed the hope hat the House wou'd reserve to itself its 'judgment on this odejsct. He certainly sheild rather that the Committee ' reported the evidence, and altstiined from reporting their iwn views. At the seine time, however, it would be ex ,remelv difficult to restrain the Committee from reporting my opinion of their own. Far instance, a very large :oars of papers relative to the finances of the Company .vould be sWirnitted to the Committee ; and the Committee !night Mel it extremely troublesome to report even a sum- • 'nary of these. Again, iu considering the administration • of justice in India, the Committee might think it right to call the attention of the House to existing inconveniences, and to projected improvements. Ile recollected that the Committee on the State of Ireland gave a general sum mary of their labours, but that they offered no opinion on the Catholic question. Under all the circumstances con nected with this subject, he thought there would be much awkwardness in restraining the Committee from offering any opinion to the House ; and although be repeated the hope that the House would reserve to itself its own judg ment, yet ha thought it ought to be left to the Committee to use their own discretion as to what observations they should make in their reports.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. lIUSKISSON said he should not forget, in the few observations he had to make, that neither the tran sactions at Bombay, nor the letter written by a Noble Lord, were before the House ; hut that the sole questio❑ before them was, whether they should refer to a Select Committee, an inquiry into the commercial and financial concerns of the East India Company.—(Hear.)—As, however, the letter of the Noble Lord had been mentioned, he must protest against it being received as a private com munication only, for as it was sent to a person holding a high station, and as it related to most important matters, it ought to be fit to come before Parliament.—(Hear, hear.).--He would say no more upon that letter now ; but, if it ever came before them regularly, he hoped they would vindicate themselves from the imputation that they meant to lower the dignity and the independence of the Judges.—(Hear, hear.)—Certainly nothing could be less compatible with dignity and independence than for a learned judge to be placed in the situation in which a wild elephant was placed when such animal was led away be tween two tame ones.—(Hear, and laughter. )—At least this was true, if he might depend upon the descriptions given by those writers who had witnessed the ceremony of leading away a wild elephant between two tame ones. With respect to the question before them, he thought that his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Peel) had full• redeemed the pledge that had been given in the last Session of Parlia ment. No one could doubt, after the speech of his Right Hon. Friend, that this inquiry was to embrace every question connected with the subject. In inquiring into the subject, moreover, he hoped that it would be probed to the bottom. For instance, when they came to deal with the finances of the Cnnpany, be hoped the Committee would net confine their inquiries to the income and ex penditure of the Company, but to how the revenue was collected, and from what it was derived.—(Hear, hear. ) He was glad to hear that the Committee was not to re ceive any preconceived notion of the Government of the subject of their inquiries. lie agreed with his Right llon. Friend that in making alterations they ought to proceed with care and caution ; but, at the same time, he should have bee❑ better pleased if his Right Hon. Friend had not exhibited so strong a bias towards retaining too much of the present machinery. He should be sorry that an im pression should go forth that the Government had a bias towards retaining every thing as it was, and that it was the opinion of Government that there ought not to be those changes which the public voice, out of doors, had said ought to be made. He hoped that he hail mistaken the views of the Government, as he had gathered them from the speech of his Right Hon. Friend ; but that un fortunate letter, which had been so often alluded to, had already produced the same impression abroad, and it was desirable that it should be contradicted. To the Com mittee would be opened a fearfully extensive field of in quiry; and he perfectly agreed with his Right Hon. Friend, that the House at large, and not the Committee, ought to decide upon those great branches which sprung out of the question. The extent of the subject inclined him to agree with the Hon. Member near him, who suggested that the appointment of two or three Committees would be preferable to the present course. He would detain the House no longer on this subject; but upon another subject he wished to ask, if the Government were not disinclined to furnish it, for some information. He begged to ask of the Government if they nicest to deal with another great charter, which would expire about the same time with the charter of the East India Company, and which was of equal importance, in the same manner in which they now proposed to deal with this ?—he need hardly say that he alluded to the charter of the Bunk of England.--(Loud cries of " Hear.") —When he spoke of the charter of the Bank of England, he must say, that out of the use, not to say the abuse, of that charter, had grown most of the evils and the diffi culties under which the country now laboured.—(Cheers.) He would not say the abuse of the charter, but the mis use, if they pleased, for he had no intention of attaching blame either to the Government or to the Directors. He 1 1 would not go into this subject now, hut, ie alluding to it, be must say that if the country found itself under difficulties, many of them might be traced to the manner in which the Bank of England had been dim ected, so as to be the means of influencing the prosperity of the country. No man could look dispassionately at the history of the last thirty years, without seeing that the powers vested in the Bank of England had affected the property and the pur suits of every man in the country, even to a greater de gree than the highest prerogative of the Crown—the pre rogative which placed the country in a state of war or in a ►tate of peace.—(Hear, hear.)—Now he wished to ask whether, with respect to the charter of the Bank of Eng lend—as it must be reviewed, and as great inconvenience would result from not reviewing it some—he wished to ask the Government whether, with respect to their char ter, they would take example by the excellent course they were following with respect to the charter of the East India Company; and whether, instead of their proposing some arrangement, we should have a committee of in quiry before the renewal teok place ? He believed that the country would receive greater benefit, and the Bank of England greater secur;ty, by this than by any other means.—( blear, hear.) He thought that the charter of the Bank of England, subject to modifications, ought to be continued ; but he was of opinion that there ought to be an inquiry first, because much good would result from such a course. If it were said that the charter of the Bank had hitherto been renewed without inquiry, he could only observe, in answer, that such was not the pro per, though it might have been the uniform course.— Besides, such renewals had taken place in time of war, when the convenience of the Government was, perhaps, more considered than the interest of the public, and he did hope the House would consider that at a time of peace and tranquillity, like the present, was the most favourable time for taking this great and important subject into con sideration. --(Cheers. ) Mr. J. STUART defended (as we understood) the con duct of the East India Company, and said, that Directors of the Company were as fit as any other Hon. Members to be of the Committee. (The Hon. Member spoke frem under the gallery, and we could only gather here and there a few words of his speech.) Mr. STEWART and Mr. HustossoN explained, in con sequence of something (which we did not hear) that had fallen from Mr. J. STUART. General GASCOYNE expressed himself dissatisfied with the persons placed on the Committee. He objected to them collectively, not individually, and he begged leave to express and to assert the suspicion that. the Govern ment, notwithstanding the appointment of the Committee, had already come to a determination on the question. He expressed this suspicion, in order that he might warn those interested in the question. Mr. PEEL thought that after what had already fallen from him, he might justly complain of the warning and the suspicion of the Hon. Member for Liverpool (General Gascoyne).—( Hear, hear.)—He had stated that this Committee was not appointed to ratify any engagement, expressed or implied, with the Company, and that there was no preconceived determination on the part of the Go vernment respecting this question. Ile repeated this declaration once more ; and ho left it to the House to de cide whether to this declaration or to the suspicions of the Hon. Member the greater weight was due.—(Cheers.) Mr. ASTELL begged to repeat, what he had often said on former occasions,—namely, that the Directors of the East India Coiripany desired nothing more earnestly than the fullest inquiry into this subject. What the Directors complained of most was, the ignorance which prevailed on this subject, and which, by deluding the country, became the greatest enemy they had to contend with. The part of the present motion which was most acceptable to him was the latitude which it proposed to give to the inquiries of the Committee. The mote the subject was investi gated, the more likely would it be that the Directors, who had always invited and never shrunk from inquiry, would have justice done them. Let the Committee obtain the fullest evidence ; let them examine all the documents that would be brought before them ; and then they would be ab'e to decide whether India could be better go,. verned,—whether justice could be more fairly admi nistered, and whetli,r the happiness of the natives could be more humanely eonculted.—(Cheer=.)—lle not mean to say that the system was not teirelde of improve ment, and if improvements were pointed out, he should be the first man to vote for them.---(Hear, hear )—All that he contended for was this—that the DirectieF had done all they could, and that they had neva - lost sight . of the inte rests of their country in the purenit of their own. He wanted to know, then, why he, as an East India Direc tor, was incapable of performing the duties of a member of this Committee? He was a Member of the British Legislature, and he claimed, as a right, that which som e gentlemen seemed disposed to think he was incapacitated for.—(Hear, hear.)—He repeated that he claimed it as a right ; and he wished the House to decide whether, be cause he was an East India Director, he was, for that rea son, incapable of performing his parliamentary duties like an honest man.—(Cheers.)—He trusted that, although an East India Director, he had as strong a sense of duty as the Hon. Member for Liverpool. Mr. lIUSKISSON did not know if he were the per• son alluded to, hut it would be in the recoPection of the House that he had not objected to the nomination of East India Directors on this Committee. He begged also to be excluded from the number of those who were ignorant of this subject, and who, by their ignorance, had deluded the country. Mr. A. BARING next addressed the House, but his first few sentences were very indistinctly heard in the gal lery, owing to the low tone in which he spoke. Owing to the same cause, several passages of his speech were in audible. We understood him to begin by expressing his great satisfaction at the questions which had been put re specting the Bank of England. The subject was one of the highest importance, and the sooner it was brought be fore the House the better. With respect to the question immediately before the House, he had no ground whatever for supposing that the Right Hon. Gentleman had any other view in the appointment of the Committee than that which he had fairly avowed. As to the point to which some Hon. Members had alluded, the eligibility of Di reseors of the East India Company to sit as members of the Committee,—he would observe, that if the great in formation and practical knowledge they possessed were not required for the fair discussion and explanation of Indian affairs, he would have no hesitation in saying that, prima facie, there would exist many strong grounds why they should not be put upon it. But he admitted that the ne cessity of obtaining that information which they possessed obviated those objections. Individually he had the highest respect for them, but on principle he must say that, but for the causes he had assigned, he would object to their sitting as Members of the Committee. If this were not a com pany of long standing by charter—if it were the case of an ordinary company—a gas company, or seine such, it would not be listened to for a moment, that Members who were its directors should sit on a committee which had to inquire into its affairs ; and surely the great interest which they possessed, the immense power and patronage which they enjoyed, ought to be so many grounds of disqualifi cation, were it not without the constant attendance of some members of that body the Committee would be de prived of many sources of information which they were so well qualified to give. As to the inquiry itself, the only doubt he had was, that which had been already expressed by other Members, whether the very extensive objects which they had in view, and the various subjects to which their attention would necessarily be called, would come within the grasp of one Committee. This most important . question, embracing so many distinct interests, involving so many separate inquiries—the amount of revenue end expenditure—the state of its finances—the adminstration of justice—the condition of the people—would not only require an extraordinary degree of patience in those to whom the inquiries were committed, but to examine each with the attention it demanded, would consume as much these as was ordinarily allotted to the life of man.—(Hear, hear.)—Any one of the subjects which which were to be brought under investigation would of itself be as much as, and more than, a Committee could well go through in any reasonable time ; but when the whole were put together, they certainly presented a most formidable mass, from which one would shrink, if he did not hope that some good would be the result of the attempt. He did not on these grounds object to the Committee, but he owned that he went to it without any strong conviction that they would be able to do much. If he were dealing with a Minister on whom he bad less reliance than he had on the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, he should form a very different opinion of the question from that which he now did ; but having the utmost confidence in the Right Hon. Gentleman, and firmly believing that he meant what he said, he took the subject as it was offered. Without such confidence he would be led to suppose that it was intended to overpower the Committee with such an immense mass of evidence of every kind, that it would be impossible for them to come to any decision. As he had stated, he felt no such apprehension, and therefore (as he now under stood his name was on the list) he would go to the in quiry with a strong determination of doing every thing in his power to promote its objects. Let Hon. Members, however, who anxiously looked forward to what they hoped would be the result of this investigation not be too sanguine. Let them remember that the Finance Com mittee had sat an entire session, and that, after a diligent attention, they had in that time only been able to carry their inquiries through one department, that of the Board of Ordnance. But this, compared with the mass of matter which was to be brought under the consideration cf this Committee, was only a mere point ; for let it be re collected that the annual payments made by the India Com pany were greater than those made by the Government of this country, with the exception of the national debt and fixed payments. In this immense range of accounts, there might lie many abuses, and the difficulty of their inves tigation would be great in proportion to the distance at which the transactions took place. Separate committees had been suggested by some Hon. Members ; and though he admitted that the subjects were important enough to de mand separate investigation, yet he saw the difficulties in the way of having different committees sitting at the same time upon different inquiries connected with India. Yet an exception, he thought, might be made on one point. He thought it would be well to separate the question of the China trade from the other subjects; but as this was not the intentian of Government, he hoped that something tending to the same end would be done, by the Commit.. tee reporting to the House from time to time, as any thing of importance pressed itself on their consideration. An Hon. Member lied urged an objection against the Com mittee offering any opinion of their own in their reports, and insisted that they should confine themselves to laying before the House the evidence le bleb they had taken. If they were to confine themselves within the limit of laying a bundle of evidence on the table, they would labour to very little purpose iudeed : for theme were a great variety of important details—such as the state of the Company's finances—the China trade—and how far the quality and price of tea were affected by that monopoly— to which they would have to call the attention of the Housl from time to time; and if they were prevented from doing this, he owned he could not see to what useful purpose they should labour. This was a matter which, as had been observed by the Right Hon. Gentle man opposite, should be left entirely to the discretion of the Committee. Let it he remembered that if they offered any opinion, that opinion would not be binding on the House. The Right Hon. Gent, would find that Committee having to wade through such a mass of details would move very slowly, and he (Mr. Baring) therefore hoped that if at the end of the session they should have made but little progress in their labours, the Right Hon. Gent. would not object to the renewal of the Committee in the next year. With respect to the names, if they were to be such as had been read, he saw no objection to them, for they appeared to have no appearance of selection for any particular purpose distinct from a full and fair inquiry. Mr. BRIGHT thought, that instead of this roundabout way, Ministers ought to have come down to the House and stated what were the measures they intended to pro pose with respect to the company, and if the House should not approve of them, then it would be time enough to send them to a Committee. He, therefore, protested against the course now proposed, because he thought that in the delays which would necessarily take place in the investiga tion of an important question of this kind, it would be thrown over from one session to the other for an indefinite time ; for if they found it difficult and tedious to pursue an investigation where all the parties and documents ne cessary to the inquiry were at hand, how much more tedious anti difficult would it not be where the inquiry re lated to transactions which took place at so many thousands of miles distance? However, he would not then go into that part of the subject. He rose to protest against this mode of going into an investigation where parties had already made up their minds. For his own part, he would re , erve his opinion until he saw time evidence which should be laid before the Howie, without pledging himself to any opinion that might 46 offered. He would prefer that the reports of the Committee should be confined to the simple detail of the evidence which would be laid before them, and indeed he should like that it were mmed as an in struction to the Committee not to offer any opinion of their mvn. The House would eventually decide whether the Committee offered any opinion or not—and he would ask whether any opinion given by thirty or forty gentlemen so well qualified to give it by their previous habits and acquaintance with the subject, would not be calculated to incline the House to any side to which it might lean ? It would in fact be almost delegating to the Committee the power of deciding on the question, as well as of inquiring into it. Put on s subject of so touch importance to the interest of the country, it behoved every lion. Member to judge for himselr, and therefore he was anxious before hand to guard lion. :\ !embers against being led away by any opinion formed by the Comniittee. Looking at the immense mast of matters, etch of great importance in its lf, which were to be submitted to this Committee, he °wiled that ha had very little hope of any good result from it. To examine tl:e subject with the attention it deserved would !quire the whole of a raan's life. A letter from the production of whielt might be considered neces sary by the Committee, would require two or three years. Despatches would be to be sent out for this and the other piece of evidence, and thus the inquiry might go o❑ from year to year without any practical good result. Ile again repeated that lie had no hope of any good from this Com mittee, but as they seemed disposed to agree to it, he would not; object now, but would reserve his opinion until he saw the evidence. Mr. P. THOMSON said that last year the Hon. Mem ber who had just addressed the House was loud in his cries for a Committee of Inquiry. His great objection to Mi nisters on that occasion was, that they had cone down to the House with their resolution, without giving the House an opportunity of previous investigation ; that on a sub ject where the the interests of thousands were concerned, they should first submit the matter to investigation ; and that when it bad been well weighed and considered, it would be then time to legislate. This was the language of the lion. Member last year; but now, when matters, in volving the interests of not less than ninety millions of people were to be made the subject of discussion, he would have no inquiry ; but all at once go into the matter, and legislate without any inquiry whatever.—(Hear, hear.) — A more unjust charge had never been made against Minis ters, nor a more unfounded statement had ever been made than that the public would he satisfied with the proposi tion of legislative measures on this important subject with out inquiry.—(Hear.)—Surely the Mon. Member could not have attended much to what had been passing in the country during the past and part of the present year, during which the public were loudly calling for in vestigation, and he (Mr. Thomson) bad no doubt that if we could know what was now passing in India, we should find that inquiry en this subject was as anxiously sought for there as it was here. 'I he only doubt which he (Mr. Thomson) had of the Committee was, that which had been expressed by the Hon. Member for Callington (Mr. A. Baring), that one Committee would not be suffi cient for the various subjects which were to be embraces!. He thought that one should be appointed to examine into the state of the China trade, and another to consider of the condition of the trade to India—its revenue, and the civil government and judicial administration of that country. Perhaps it would be well if the latter were separated from the other subjects of inquiry. On this, however, he would not offer an opinion, for he did not feel himself com petent to judge, and he would not obtrude farther on the indulgence of the House, as he rose chiefly for the pur pace of repelling the unjust charge made on Ministers by . . • the Hon. Member who spoke last. Mr. BRIGHT in explanation said, that the Honourable Member whe spoke last mistook him. He had no objec tion to inquiry, but he could not concur in the plan of throwing the whole weight and responsibility of this im portant matter in the first instance on a Committee. Mr. PEEL said that the financial and the general con dition of India were so connected, that he did not know Low they could be separated, or made the subject of in qoiry by separate committees ; but if in the course of their investigation the Committee about to be appointed should see the expediency of such a course, they could recommend it, and from time to time might call the attention of the House to such detached points as they might see necessary. The question that the Committee he appointed was then put, and carried, and the Speaker had commenced reading ' the list of names of those who were to compose it, when Mr. HUSKISSON suggested that the name of Mr. Marshall, of York, should be added to the list. He did this, though personally a stranger to that gentleman, but considering the interests he represented, and his great in telligence, he thought he ought to be on the Committee. Perhaps there would be no objection to substituting his name for that of the Hon. Member for Sussex, who, very probably, would not be disposed to attend. Mr. PEEL said, that he had made the selection with a view to the interests they represented, or their particular acquaintance with the subject. He could have, on other grounds, no objection to the gentleman named ; but if one was admitted, and others who might be proposed by other Members refused, it would appear to be making invidious distinctions. Besides, the interests of the county of York were not left unrepresented, as Lord Milton was one of the Committee. General GASCOYNE expressed his intention of mov ing, in the course of a few days, that it he a special in !ruction to the Committee to take into consideration, in the first instance, the state of the trade with China. The Committee, as already named, was then put, and the list read agreed to. On the motion of Mr. lluma, Mr. J. Stewart was added to the Committee. EXPORTS AND IMPORTS. Mr. Alderman WAITLIMAN then rose to make the motion of which he had given notice, from a comparative account of the declared and official value of various exports and imports since 1798. The Hon. Member proceeded to show in nearly the same manner as upon the occasion of a similar motion last session, that the present mode of esti mating our exports and their official value was extremely erroneous, and calculated to mislead the public as to the real condition of our foreign trade. From 1798 to 1914 the real value of the exports had always exceeded the offi cial value, and the gross amount of the excess in those years amounted to the enormous sum of 240,000,000/. From 1814 to 1819, the real value began to fall below the official, but still the official value wow continued. From 1819 to 1828, the official value rose above the real, from 36,000,000/. to 52,000,000/. The excess of the official above the real, in those years, amounted to 80,000,0001., being a difference of 8,000,000/. per an num. Under the operation of the present system our export trade, as he could prove, had been long falling off at the rate of eight millions and a half annually. This enormous deficiency had now actually existed for years upon years, notwithstanding the sacrifices which had been made so unscrupulously by Parliament to the interest of that trade. Ship-owners were injured, other parties were injured with a view to its increase and sust tinment; yet all to no purpose., Such was his assertion, and he would not flinch from inquiry into the facts upon which it was founded. If wrong, of course he would be open to correction. The Hon. Alderman here quoted the opinion of Sir John Barnard in support of the general principle in favour of which he had been contending. With respect to the consequences of overtrading and inconsiderate enterprise, it was suf ficiently evident that every year so distinguished, had always produced a cot responding depression, and goods were eventually sold at a considerable sacrifice. Whenever there was a great exportation, it was not unfrequently followed by distress. An excess of export _trade was, therefore, by no means to be taken as an evidence of public prosperity. He deprecated the flourishing speeches about national prosperity, too often put forth by Chancel lors of th► Exchequer, which invariably created this spirit of over-trading throughout the country, When poverty and bankruptcy, the natural consequences, arrived, those very official boasters were the first to turn round and laugh at the deluded victims of their own frothy declamation. In saying this, however, he did not mean to cast a reflec tion on the Right Pion. Gentleman at present in office. The statements he Alluded to were more prominently visible in 1825, after which a panic with all its calamitous results bad ensued, and brought numbers to beggary and ruin. The Honourable Member proceeded to eulogise the Bank of England for the efficient and praiseworthy manner in which its affairs had been generally conducted. To the Bank of Englund, in his opinion, was the country indebted for its salvation in 1797. It was strange that certain Right Hon. Gentlemen, with such a fact before their eyes, should now appear disposed to turn r ound and reproach its managers with evils over which they could by no possibility have controul. That there wa s something faulty in the present state of our Admi nistration he thought might be inferred from the solitary fact that there was an increase of from 4,000 to 16,000 criminal commitments during the last thirty years, and this, notwithstanding the spread of our civil and charitable institutions—notwithstanding "the schoolmaster has been abroad" in every direction. He only demanded to be put on his trial to prove the truth of all that he had repre sented, and he most readily would do it. He intended to move separately for accounts concerning cotton and printed goods, because those articles paid duty as before, although they had suffered so material a depreciation in their prices. It was his wish that Ministers should cut down taxation in every department where they possibly could, and yet even by so doing he feared that they would still be unable adequately to meat the distress of the population. If they would only deal in all respects candidly and frankly with t he country, he, for one, would be willing to make some aliowance for past theoretical errors, and repose some con fidence in their ability and integrity for the future. But Ile would take the liberty to remind them of certain lines iu Hudibra', which seemed somewhat applicable to themselves : He who hangs or knocks out brains, " The devil's in it if he feigns." G.)vei nmeut, however, had already said that they could do nothing to alleviate the public calamities. if so, such a government was worse than useless, and revolutionary con sequences would become inevitable. He then proceeded to move as follows : An account of the exports of British manufactures and produce, from 1798 inclusive, to the Ist of January, 1814, specifying the official and real value, with the increase and decrease in each year as the same may be, of the real as compared with the official value, and the gross amounts. A like account of the exports, from 1814 inclusive, to the sth of January, 1830. Like accounts of the exports of colonial and foreign produce. Like accounts of the exports from Ireland. Like accounts of the imports for the same periods. An account of the exports of cotton goods front 1814 inclusive, to the sth January, 1830, specifying each year the increase and decrease of the real as compared with the official value. A like account of the exports of printed cotton goods, ith the amount of duties received and drawbacks allowed each year upon the same. Mr. HUME could not agree with the Hon. Member.— According to tee best of his belief and experience, active industry, so far from suffering the alleged depression within the period referred to, had, on the contrary, doubled and trebled in its results.—(Tlear, hear.) He wished there fore to dispel the delusion which such misrepresentations were calculated to produce. To take the official value as any criterion, except for quantity, was a very great mis tahe. In 1823 the official value was greater than the real value by nearly 16,000,0001. But this was not univer sally the case : in one year it exceeded, and in another might fall short of it. The effect of machinery had been adverted to, but nothing could go farther to prove the im portant change in the prices of manuf ;ctures which man's inventive ingenuity had created, than the fact that bob binet, which had been at 11. per yard a few years ago, was now to be had for Is. 6d. This be considered a most material advantage, so far from tieing an injury to the country.—(Bear.) The cheaper every necessary article could be procured the better for the public. Those who could not afford to wear a rag before, were at the present day enabled to purchase good clothing. In support of what he had advanced with respect to the official ♦alue, he might merely mention, that every pound of cloves im ported into England was estimated in the Custom-house at Ks., whereas they ♦ery often fetched 15s. in the market, while on the other hand they were sometimes sold at half-a-crown. Free trade had done us no injury whatever, and ought to he still further extended, in stead ofbeing in any way contracted. Away, then, with all this bothering nonsense.—(Laughter.) When gentlemen, who unluckily represented important and respectable towns, came down to that House preaching such intolerable ❑onsense and humbug, lie felt inclined to ask them what would Venice, Genoa, or any other of the powerful mari time states of Europe have been without their commerce. —(1-fear. )—Some of these notable legislators had even gone so f.r as to say that it would be better for England to have no foreign commerce whatever. But this was such unmitigated and irremediable absurdity, that it did not deserve a moment's consideration. Why, except for free trade, the people would be soon reduced to utter ruin, and driven to the necessity of eating one another, surrounded as • they must be upon all sides by a political wall of brass.— (Laughter.)—He would wish, however, most earnestly to see taxation snore equalized, and taken as much as possible off the poor working classes, upon whom it now pressed so hard. The labouring poor at present contributed four fifths of the taxes, while millions gave comparatively nothing.—(Hear.)—Let the burden of taxes he imposed chiefly on property and capital, the owners of which were SJ forward to claim priority in representation that it would he a pity to refuse them precedence in this particular like wise. —(Hear.)—ln that case he affirmed that the land would no longer be burdened with pauperism, manufactures would flourish, and the whole body of society be improved in proportion. Let Hon. Members look at soap, candles, and leather, which were respectively doubled in value to the consumer by taxation: Any gentleman could go into a shop and buy tallow for himself at Sd. per lb. ; but when he purchased it in candles he was obliged to pay 61d. or 7d., losing at the rate of 30 per cent. in that article alone. The Hon. Member recommended the House to consult a document containing much useful iuformation upon this subject, which was in possession of the member for Corn wall, who, be was sure, would readily give a copy to any Member who might desire it. Mr. ROBINSON (of Worcester) said, the advocates of the present system of free trade dwelt much on the appa rent iacrease in the amount of our exports as a proof of our increasing wealth and commerce; but they seemed to forget that there were but two elements in those exports— namely, capital and labour ; and that when the imports not only did not replace this capital and labour, and leave an income profit and high wages to the capitalist and the labourer, but actually were less, the nation must be de teriorating, however numerically great might be those ex ports. They also seemed to forget, that, however unob jectionable free trade might be in the abstract, to be advantageous it should be general; and that if this country acted on it while other countries pursued a different policy, they would be the gainers and we so far the losers. It was an argument urged by Lord Goderich, when a Mem ber of that House, that all we had to do was to lead the way in acting upon the anti-restrictive s)stem, and that other nations would immediately follow the beneficent example. But what was the fact ? Did France or Ame rica imitate our conduct ? By no means. France had lately asserted the advantages of the prohibitive-system, and America had re-enacted the tariff.—(Hear.)—Those, therefore, who questioned the policy of free trade, had the ex ample of other countries to appeal to, and surely were wor thy of attention when they asked the House not to abandon its free trade enactments, but merely to revise them. The distress was too general, too all-pervading, to be longer passed over without a minute investigation of its causes, in order to get at the proper remedies. Those causes were numerous; one was the expense of the maintenance of labour, for which reason he agreed with the Hon. Mem ber for Aberdeen that a reduction of the taxes which press more immediately on the necessaries of life would be a great relief to the operative, and thence to the consumer of our domestic produce. The introduction of machinery was, as a Noble Duke had elsewhere justly asserted, among the concurrent causes. The Hon. Member for Aberdeen had said much of the free trade principles making the world trilfuttly on England for her manufacture ; but the Hon. Member had forgotten that France and America, act ing on the restrictive system, had both extended their trade last year. The increase, for example, of the value of im ports into the port of Havre (the Liverpool of France), amounted last year to 20,000,000 of francs over those of the preceding year, and the exports of the United States were 5,000,000 of dollars more last year than in 1628. Was it not evident, then, that other nations were beue fitted while this was injured by the present system ? Wify should we take the silk of France unless she reciprocally bound }remit' by treaty to take our cotton and hardware manufactures in return ? In a word, why should not the system be made one of bona fills reciprocity, or be revised and amended? Mr. COURTENAY was willing to admit, that the system of determining the value of our exports, by that called the " official average value," wan not altogether as perfect as reight be desired ; but it was the most perfect that he knew of, or, he would venture to say, any Mem ber of that House had as yet devised. He had tried one or two other modes of arriving at a value of our exports and imports, but found them not so successful ; and he should be obliged to any Hon. Member who would suggest a mode less liable to error than that of the official value. Some artificial standard was necessary, for the difference of kind and size, &e., of commodities, rendered mere quantity an inefficient representative of real value. He would not then enter into an analysis of the Hon. Alder man's (Waithman) statements, as a more fitting occasion would shortly present itself, but would content himself with contending that increase of exports proved so far an increased activity of commerce. How could these ex ports be made, without an increased amount of shipping, and of the employment of machinery and labour ? Hon. Members said, that because the price or rate of profit of those exports was low, that therefore they were of no national benefit ; but they forgot that ihz ex tent of the market was as the lowness of profits— that if they wished for high prices, they moat count on small sales, and vice versa.—(Hear.)—The Hon. Member for Worcester said that France and America had not fol lowed our example in adopting the anti-restrictive system. Now it was a sufficient answer to the Hon. Member to say that the Secretary to the Treasury of the limited States had in his last report asserted the very doctrine which had been over and over advanced by Ministers—namely, that the transition from a state of war to that of peace, the ap plication of science to machinery, (which God forbid he (Mr. Courtenay) should denounce or not appreciate), and ( o i s h t e r r es c s o , n c fo u r r r I , l l t , ( c l a , u s t e h s e , r e w c e :s sa l noy legislative induced a r t e e m mlo ely raLy (Hear, hear. )—Then with respect to France, it was a fact that our exports to that country had increased considerably last year, notwithstanding the so much-objected-to free trade system. When last session he addressed the House on the suhject, he contended that the silk trade, the then subject of complaint, would be extended by the very mea sures which Hon. Members declared would be its ruin ; and he appealed to the candour of every honourable man it the fact was not as be had predicted.—( Hear, hear.) Ald so it would be with other branches of trade, as he w mid endeavour to prove on anotker occasion. Mr. ATTWOOD was not surprised that the Hon. Member for Aberdeen should be hailed as a great autho itv tm the state of the nation by Hon. Members opposite (on the Treasury bench) since his statements went to bear cut their ill-founded assertions, But the Hon. MVP.. ier had a condition of his own, which went, if sxamin?..,i, o up-et the very doctrines which he meant to uphold'. The lion. Member contended that the present free trade system gave to us the market of the world ; and yet strangely argued that there should be a reduction of 20,000,000/. of taxes, else we should be driven out of that market by other competitors.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. HUME said he did not specify 20,000,0001'.—bs only mentioned a large reduction. Mr. ATTWOOD—No matter, three, five, or ten mil- Ii )us, be tit , bUM what it might,—it was equally a death blow to Ministers. He did not doubt that, according to the official returns, the amount of exports ap pared last year greater than those of the preceding. He regretted that such documents as these trade accounts should occupy the attention of the House. If arguments we/a to be founded on such documents, they should at least he framed on a less absurd and preposteroas plan. When a statement founded on them proceeded front the throne— when his Majesty was made to speak like a Custom-house clerk—when, in the midst of awful calamities and im pending changes, the people, who looked forward with anxiety to the Throne and the Parliament, were mocked by statements founded upon such documents,—if the Mi nisters intended to alienate the people, and proclaim their inefficiency to the country, it was impossible for them to adopt a mare effectual course. Mr. P. THOMSON observed, that if the Hon. Mem ber had brought a just accusation against hie Majesty'■ Ministers a much juster accusation could be brought against him. He (Mr. Thomson) believed the distress of the country to be great, though not universal ; but how ever great it might be, he coald net believe that a remedy for it existed in the use of language that must inflame— (llear,)—or that it could answer any useful purpose to proclaim any part of the House to be indifferent to the distress of the people,—(Haar, hear.)—The Hon. Mem ber, having described on a former evening his object as to the depreciation of the standard, the House now knew how to meet him, and gentlemen most beware how they aided a plan which was calculated to be a fraud on the country. Mr. ♦TTWOOD protested against personal motives being imputed to any Hon. Member. Mr. THOMSON did not intend to itnpnte personal motives.—(Hear.) Mr. ATTWOOD—If any Hon. Member imputes to me any measure of dishonesty, it is perfectly false.— (" Hear," and " Order.") The SPEAKER requested the Hon. Member to abstain from such observations.—(Hear.) Mr. THOMSON must repeat what he Paid, that Le could not but conceive that a measure which would reduce the standard of the country was one calculated to effect a fraud; and he was glad of an opportunity to speak of the measure, that the House might not be led to adopt schemes of that kind. The distress occasioned by over production was not remediable by legislative enactments, nor could any retrenchment tut off a very great sum from the expenditure of the country. A remedy might be found i❑ a mutation of taxation. A large proportion of the taxes premed on the industrious classes, whilst those who were better able to bear them were exempt. The Hon. Member (Mr. Attwood) bad said that any one who asserted, as the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Courtenay) Lad, that we could receive imports from a country which prohibited our exports, a , serted what was absurd and dangerous. He (Mr. Thomson) considered, that it was equally absurd and dangerous to assert the contrary. Mr. FILER, in reply to a remark of the Right Hon, the Vice-President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Courte nay), that the experiment in regard to silk bad succeeded, observed that from all he could learn, this was not the fact. He could state that some large manufacturers had Lecome insolvents. Mr. COURTENAY explained. HUSKISSON protested (as we understood) against going so circumstantially into these matters, on such a question as that before the House. Mr. TRANT recommended to his Hon. Colleague (Mr. Thomson) not to impute remedial measure*, at this period of distress, to improper motives. The state of the country should be discussed dispassioaately, without anger and irritation. Mr. THOMSON was not liable to the imputation of ascribing improper motives. He was of opinion that any attempt to shape the standard. so as to reduce it, would be in its effects a fraud.—(Hear.) Mr. WAITHNIAN said a few words in reply. Mr. ATTWOOD explained. He thought that a per severance in the prevent system was a fraud upon the farmers. The question was then agreed to. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER anoved the Order of the Day for the House to resolve itself into a Committee of Supply. The SPEAKER accordingly left the Chair, and the Houle resolved itself into a Committee. The Marquis of BLANDFORD rose, and said, that the distress of the country was so great, and the declarations of his Majesty's Ministers were so vague, that he opposed, in litnine, the grant of one shilling to his Majesty till their grievances were redressed. He mired, therefore, ",That this House will not vote any supply to his Majesty, until the grievances and distress of the people be taken into consideration and redress be granted." The CHAIRMAN (Sir A. Grant) objected to the form of the resolution, as irregular. Mr. FIUME c nsidered that the motion was regular. " Before I graft a supply" (said the Noble Lord) " let us have our grievances redressed." The resolution was then altered by the Noble Mover, and stood 89 follows : " That it is the opinion of this Committee, that no sup— ply be granted, until the grievances and distress of the people be taken into consideration, and redress be granted." The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was not prepared for this motion. He had understood that it was to have come on with another motion on Friday. In the present state of the House, if the Noble Lord thought proper to press the motion to a division, the effect would be to delay the rest of the business of the evening. He hoped the Noble Lord would forego the interruption. The Marquis of BLANDFORD—I am no party to any understanding as to any motion on Friday. If Hon. Members are not present to do their duty to the people, it it is no fault of mine. Here am Ito do my duty. I shall divide. A divi,ion then took place, when there being only 28 Members present (four in favour of the resolution, and 24 against it,) the House, in consequence, adjourned at a Quarter past Twelve. Leeches will live, even if frozen up in icc. During the late frost, a person of oar acquaintance, who kept some, for surgical purposes, in a small bottle, which stood in an exposed window, found the water in the vessel entirely congealed : believing the leeches to be dead, he let them remain for several days, when, wishing to cleanse the bottle, he placed it by the fire ; but, on the dissolving of the ice, they immediately resumed their wonted activity. —Brighton Herald. On Saturday week a good deal of surprise was manifested amongst the shopmen of Mr. DAvirs, the tee dealer of Philpot-lane, at the appearance of an attorney, who entered the shop, and approaching Mr. Lowx, one of the principal persons in whom Mr. DA VIES reposed confidence, told him that Mrs. BYEIVATICR (Mr. D.'s mother) was appointed by warrant of attorney to super intend the business, and would proceed to act in her old ca pacity forthwith. Soon afterwards Mrs. BYIWATEIL her self appeared to resume the duties of the situation, bat her entrance was the signal for a general confusion. The shopmen, almost to a man, threw offtheir aprons, ran up stairs for their hats, and disappeared from the premises, notwithstanding the strong expressions of surprise and in dignation uttered by the lady. Many customers were in the shop at the time. The following melancholy occurrence took place last week at Brussels. At a grand entertainment g iven at the Botanical Gardens, when the numerous as semblage were dancing, the cheerful Irene was changed, and the company filled with regret aid indignation on seeing a young man, 22 years of age, receive a blow from his own father for a very trifling cause. The sense enter tained of this act of violence was strongly manifested to the father by the reception he met with from his friends and associate,. The young man, naturally of a lively charac ter, became suddenly sad and melancholy ; and a similar scene of indecent outrage being repeated a few eveain l zs after at another assembly, the son, rather than raise his hand against his father, left the ball-room, without utter ing a word, rushed upon the Boulevard, anti blew out his brains in despair. His body was found the next mornitiz by an officer of the customs going his rounds. His whole family, as well as an interesting young lady who was the innocent cause of this horrible catastrophe, are overtiihelinoil with grief. The general indignation has iniince.l the father to quit the town...-. Galigrienes ifeatenger.