The Sun. — London, England, 1830-03-12 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE. OF. LORDS—(LAST ,NIGHT). EAST INDIA TRADE. Lord KING presented a petition from the royal borough of Irvine against the monopoly of the EaSt India Company, for a reduction of taxation, and against the ,corn laws. The Earl of DERBY presented a petition from the Mayor and Corporation of Liverpool against the East India Company's monopoly; also petitions to the same effect from the trustees of the Liverpool Docks, and from certain bankers, merchants,traders, and others, of Liverpool. Lord WHARNCLIFFE presented a petition from the burgesses, manufactuiers, and others, of the bo rough of Halifax, praying that the trade with the East Indies and China might be thrown open. These petitions were all referred to the Commit tee on the affairs of the East India Company. The Duke of WELLINGTON presented a pc. tition from the parish of St. Pancras, against the vestry act. The Noble Duke took this opportunity to answer a question put to him by his Noble Friend (Lord Goderich) on a former evening, with respect to a return of country bank-notes stamped within a certain period. On inquiry he found that he was right in supposing, as . he . did, when he answered his Noble Friend's question at tiro, that the amount of Scotch notes was included in the account en both sides. He had ascertained that it would be quite impossible to distinguish between the stamps issued for England and Scotland, except as regarded those for I/. notes, which were.all Scotch. The account included the notes of the charter banks. Earl BEAUCHAMP presented a petition from a parish in the county of Warwick, complaining of distress, and praying for a repeal of the Malt and Beer Tax. DUTIES ON CONVEYANCES OF LIFEHOLD PROPERTY—FIRE INSURANCES. The:Earl of .MALNIESBURY wished to obtain returns of the proceeds of two different descriptions of Stamp Duties, in one of which he, as a land owner, felt a 'particular interest ; and the other of which included the interests of many classes of the community. As the day was now approaching on which it was intended to submit to the other Howe of ParliaMent the usual annual financial statement, he thought he could not do better than allude to the subject at the present moment. He wished to allude to, and express his opinions upon, the stamp duties upon conveyances of lifehold property. In some of the western counties in which he was pos sessed of landed property, it was usual for cottagers to hold their cottages on lives; and the custom was a good one, us it encouraged the breeding up (if he might use the expression) of a respectable class of cottagers. When these individuals had children, they naturally desired to put their children's lives in their leases as well as their own; and the usual tine for adding one life. to two others in such case was (according to his own experience, and hebelieved it was the same in the case of otherparties) 51. But this was not all; the tenant who paid his land lcrd 5/. on account of this transaction, had to pay to Government a duty of 1/.155. on the conveyance, and U. 10s. en the counter-part; thus making a sum of 31..55. stamp-duty, payable on a transaction of which the cost as between landlord and tenant was only 5/. The existence of this Jet) , opposed a great obstacle to such transaetions.. The landlord might say to his tenant, " pay me the fine by instalments ; I know you cannot afford to pay it at once, and will take it as you can spare it ;" but the stamp duty must be paid upon the nail. The consequence of a duty so disproportionate in amount to the value of the transaction, was to prevent conveyances being made in many cases in which they would otherwise be effected. He was desirous of knowing the actual amount of revenue produced to the Exchequer in this way. He hoped that there would appear rea son for reducing this fluty ; he would have it lowered (if not entirely remitted) to Is. or 2s. 6d. on each conveyance. • Again, if he had five acres, which he wished to dispose of in fee, say for a sum of 1494, the stamp duty was 11. 10s. He wished to ascer tain the produce of that duty. There were few things from which land suffered more than from law transactions, as at present conducted. The law, or rather taxation, weighed most heavily upon it. He hoped to see these onerous and unjust imposts con siderably.lowered or altogether done away with in the forthcoming financial arrangements. There was another point affecting landed property which was also well deserving of attention ;—he alluded to the duty on policies of fire insurance. He would take the case of common insurances. Ile or any other man might not be wealthy enough to risk the chance of a fire upon his - farm, and was compelled to in sure his dwelling, firm, buildings, stock, &c. In 1815 the expense of a policy of common insurance Was 2s. per cent., and the dirty was 2s. Gil. (125 per cent. on the insurance) ; but it was raised between 1815 and 1824 to 3s. (150 per cent. on the insur ance). Policies were now done at ls. 61, the duty still continuing 35.; so that the duty was 200 per cent. upon the charge of the offices which undertook to guarantee people's property from loss by fire.— What was the consequence ? Men of large property who were able to afford the risk, did not insure at all. They said, " Here are persons willing to insure us for a sum upon which a duty of 200 per cent. is added by the Government. We shan't pay it : we will take our chance." He was satisfied that if this tax upon fire-insurances were reduced considerably, the Treasury would be fully repaid, and all deficit prevented by an increase in the number and amount of policies, at the same time that there would be much greater security for property than at present. . He might here observe, with reference to the first part of his statement, that the duty on conveyances of cottages was about 75 per cent. on the amount generally demanded by landlords for the introduction of a new life into a lease. The duty upon convey ances of property, in fee simple, below the value of 150/. a-year, was also very burdensome. The Noble Earl concluded by moving for " A return of the amount of stamp duties paid upon conveyances of lifehold property under the annual value of 5/. — [The cottages in question seldom or never exceeded the value of 405., but he fixed 51. in order to save trouble, and facilitate the making out of the account.] Also for a return of the amount of stamp duties paid on conveyances of property in fee, under the value of 1501.—Ordered. INTERNAL STATE OF THE COUNTRY. Lord HOLLAND—I received a note, my Lords from my Noble relative (the Duke of Richmond) . on my way to the House, requesting me to give notice that he intends bringing forward the motion on Thursday next, which he was prevented, by in disposition, from submitting to the House this even ing. I now move that the House be summoned for that day.—Agreed to. PORTUGAL. Lord HOLLAND—I now rise, ray Lords, for the purpose of putting some questions to the Noble Secretary for Foreign Affairs with respect to our relations with Portugal. There appears to me to be but scanty information on the subject. In request ing the information of the Noble Earl, it will be necessary to refer to the communications from the Throne, which we have had from time to time, connected with the affairs of that country. On the 29th of July, 1828, in the Speech from the Throne, his Majesty says, " he relies upon the wisdom of the august House of Braganza to take the course which shall be best calculated to maintain the interests and honour of that illustrious family, and to secure the peace and happiness of the dominions over which it reigns." At the openinafrof the Session of 1829 we are told that " his Majesty has entered into negociations with the head of the House of Bra gariza, in- the hope of terminating -a state, of affairs;" and at the close of the Session this paragraph is in bringing in the Bill. A clinve was inserted at the suggestion of the 13ishop of BATH ar-d WELLS ; and an amendment to one of the clauses by the Bishop of LONDON. Adjourned at a Quarter past Six. the Speech :—" it is with increased regret that his Majesty again adverts to the condition of the Portuguese . Monarchy ; hut his Majesty commands us to repeat his determination t 6 use every effort to reconcile conflicting interests, and to remove the evils which press so heavily upon a country, the Isprosperity of which must ever b • an object cf is Majesty's solicitude." At the commencement of the present Session the Speech states that " his Majesty laments that lie is unable to announce to you the prospect of a reconciliation between the Princes of the House of Braganza." From these communications I suppose that a negociation was established with Our Allies, with a view of recon ciling the differences which exist between the branches of the House of Braganza, for we are led to believe that such a negotiation was established ; and frorii the speech last quoted we learn that his Majesty's hopes have been disappointed : the natu ral inference is, that the negociation failed. But since this, other circumstances have occurred, and we are told in a docomelit to which I know it is not quite regular to allude—nevertheless the docu ment is made known to all Europe—l mean, my Lords, the communication of the King of France, at the opening of the Chambers on the 2d of this month. In that communication I find the French King informs his Chambers that " at the present moment he is, in concert with his Allies, carrying on negociations, the object of which is to effect be tween the Princes of the House of Braganza a re conciliation necessary to the tranquility of the Pe ninsula." Now, my Lords, the questions which I wish to put to the Noble Earl are these—First, whether the negociations originally established in 1829, and alluded to in the Speech at the opening of the present Parliament, are terminated or not ? Secondly, whether, in the negociations entered into by his Majesty with his Allies, France entered into negociations for a similar purpose,or whether France has some ulterior purpose ? Also, whether we are principal parties to the second negociation, or have a secondary part in the negociation, in which, as principals, we failed ? The third question relates to another branch of the subject equally irregular to allude to, but to which, nevertheless, I feel it right to call the attention of the House. My Lords, your Lordships well know that his Majesty's Mi nisters have invariably given as a reason for not producing papers respecting negociations,when pend ing, that it would be improper so to do. Now, I wish to know, if the negociations are actually pend ing, whether they are carried on in concert with our Allies, and whether the Kings of France and Spain are parties ? These, my Lords, are the questions I wish to put to the Noble Earl. There is, I may add, my Lords, some discrepancy between the Speech of the King of France, and that de livered by the Lords Commissioners at the opening of the present Parliament to this House, in one par ticular. In the Speech of the King of France it is stated " that the war in the East is at an end; the moderation of the conqueror, and the friendly inter vention of the Powers by preserving the Ottoman empire from the disasters which threatened it, having maintained the balance of Europe, and strengthened the ancient relations of the different states." Now, in the Speech of the Commissioners, a satisfaction is expressed at the conclusion of the war between those two Powers, but I do not understand that it was brought about on the part of his Majesty. Whether there is any omission in the Commissioners' Speech on that respect I am not able to say. The Earl of ABERDEEN—In answer to the questions which the Noble Lord has proposed, I beg to observe, that the negociations to which he has al luded, with the Emperor Don Pedro, in the summer of 1828, were not brought to that favourable close that was desirable—they had not been attended with so satisfactory a result as could have been wished. Properly speaking, no negociations had been carried on, inasmuch as our Plenipotentiary went to the Brazils, but was referred to London, it being considered by the Emperor inconvenient to carry on negociations on both sides the At lantic at the same moment. With respect to the negociations in which we entered with the King of France, that is a different transaction. 'We certainly act in concert with the French Government, but by no means in a secondary man tier. Quite the reverse. A communication has been made, in concert with the French Government, in reference to the reconciliation of the Princes of the House of Braganza. As to the ulterior purposes of that Government I know nothing, if any such exist, but I do not think there are.—(The Noble Earl here paused.) Lord HOLLAND suggested an answer respect ing pending negotiations. The Earl of ABERDEEN—Pending negotia tions ! I beg to say, my Lords, that they could scarcely be called negotiations. A communication has been made, in concert with the King of France and with our Allies, to the Court of Brazil ? Lord HOLLAND—The Court of Brazil ? The Earl of ABERDEEN signified assent. With respect to what the Noble Lord has said, that papers are refused when negotiations are pending, it must be obvious to your Lordships that such a course is the proper one. When the time comes for the production of the papers alluded to, the Noble Lord will see a very good reason for not producing them at the present moment. With respect to the passage in the Speech of the King of France quoted by the Noble Lord, I do not think it bears the con struction which the Noble Lord has given it. Our endeavours to bring about a peace between the two powers alluded to have been unceasing, and I think it will be found that we have been instrumental in causing peace. We have strongly urged the neces sity of peace to both parties, and what effect our repeated remonstrances have had will be ultimately seen. I will,. however, say that neither party ne glected attending to them, but undoubtedly the Turkish Government appeared a length of time insensible of the situation in which they were placed. Lord HOLLAND—I am not certainly prepared, my Lords, with any motion on this subject, but I must be permitted to make one or two observations in consequence of what the Noble Earl has said. In the Speech from the Throne, at the opening of the Sessions of 1829 it is said, that " his Majesty has entered into negociations with the head of the House of Braganca. Now, my Lords, I wish to know whether that negociation is concluded. I think from what the Noble Earl has said that the nego ciation is concluded, and the one in conjunction with the King of France is a separate and new one. The Earl of ABERDEEN—The Noble Lord is not quite correct in describing this as an entirely new negociation, inasmuch as the same object is in view in both. The negociation entered-into imme diately with the Emperor Don Pedro had arrived at that state that there was very little prospect of a favourable issue. With respect to the second nego elation with the Court of France and our other Allies, I can only say that it is entered into with concord between the two countries. Lord HOLLAND—Then the Court of France was not a party to that negociation mentioned in the King of England's Speech, but it is to the nego ciation now existing. Ido not wish to ask any im proper questions, but I should like to know whether the Court of Spain is a party ? The Earl of ABERDEEN—In answer to the Noble Lord, I beg to say that the Court of Spain is no party to the negociation. The Court of Austria has been a party from the first of the transaction. I may add, my Lords, that through the whole of these negociations the Court of France has had cognizance of what we have done from the first. The conversation here dropped. The Marquis of BUTE presented a petition (in the absence of a Noble Friend) from Renfrew, com plaining of distress, and suggesting the abolition of taxes which press on the working classes. Lord Ellenborough's Divorce Bill was reported with one amendment. On the motion of the Earl of Rossi.vil, the Bill was ordered to be engrossed. The Marriage Validating Bill passed through a Committee., •leethei Committee Lord HOLLAND eulogised the Right Rey. Prelate (the Bishop of London) for HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(LAST NIGHT.) Mr. NEELD, the Member for Gatton, took the oaths and his seat. . . Mr. WILLIAM PEEL presented the 22d Re port on Public Charities, and also some papers re lating to Vaccine Institutions. Mr. HOBHOUSE gave notice that he would on Thursday next move for certain returns from the Bank of England, in continuance of former returns. He thought fit to give notice, because he understood the Bank had refused to comply with the request. The Hon. Member also presented a petition from Walter Freeman, a clerk in the Navy-office, relative to the currency.—Laid on the table. Mr. NORTH presented a petition from the tan ners of the city of Kilkenny, against the Leather Tax. Lord JAMES STUART presented a petition from Cardiff, against the regulations respecting coals carried coastways. Sir C. COLE supported the petition, which was laid on the table and ordered to be printed. Sir THOMAS FREEMANTLE moved for a return of amount of moneys paid out of the Exche quer to High Sheriffs of counties on account of ex traordinary charges, distinguishing each county, &c. —Ordered. BEER LICENSING SYSTEM. Mr. Alderman THOMPSON rose for the put pose of presenting a petition from a very numerous and respectable body of persons—the licensed vic tuallers of the city of London and its vicinity ; the petition was signed by 11,000 persons interested in the sale of beer by retail. He considered it un necessary to state to the House the large property embarked by these individuals in their business; it must be known to every Member present. He would only state the fact that, in the city of London and its vicinity, there were about 4,300 licensed victuallers, and the capital embarked by them could not be estimated at less than one million sterling. He would wish to impress this fact on the memory of lion. Members, who would shortly have to decide upon the important question whether the beer trade was to be thrown open or not. If the alteration should take place he felt convinced that one-half of this industrious and respectable class of persons must be ruined, and the property of the other re duced 50 per cent. in value, whilst the good likely to arise to the public in general was very uncertain. The consumption of beer had fallen off considerably, he would allow, but he did not attribute this to any fault of the publicans ; it had been produced, in some degree, by the reduction of the du•ies on wine, spirits, and coffee. But, above all, he con sidered as the principal cause of this diminished consumption the very heavy duty upon malt.— (Hear, hear.)—lie considered that the publicans could not be blamed on account of the monopoly in the sale of beer; it was a monopoly which had ex isted for centuries, and been the cause of creating a fictitious property in licensed houses. The pub licans had embarked large sums under the existing state of the laws, and it was now sought, by a change in those laws, to deprive them of the greater portion of their property. The petitioners prayed that they might be heard by Counsel, and allowed to call evidence against throwing open the trade. Mr. Alderman WOOD supported the petition. He stated that such was the decline in the sale of beer, that one-half of the publicans had not trade sufficient to live upon at present. He did not con sider that by throwing open the trade any benefit would arise to the public. The price could not be reduced so long as the heavy malt tax was conti nued—a duty. which pressed with such dispropor tion upon the working classes, compared with the rich ; for, whilst the gentleman paid only a duty of 25 per cent. on his claret, the industrious working man had to pay 150 per cent. upon his humble be verage.—( Hear.) Sir JOHN NEWPORT felt confident the open ing, of the trade would be of great service; not only in this country, but also in Ireland. Mr. G. H. DAWSON considered that the peti tioners were a body of persons deserving the great est consideration. tie should reserve his arguments for a proper occasion, and feel satisfied, without protracting the debate, by moving that the petition he referred to the Committee now sitting on Beer Licenses. Mr. F. BUX I'ON considered that if the mono poly in the sale of beer had been an evil, neither the brewers nor the publicans were the cause of it. The evil originated in the excessive taxation of this par ticular article—one which fell so heavily, and out of all proportion, on those the least able to bear it. He would not go so far as to say that the public did not suffer in some degree from the monopoly, but he would merely state what the taxation was, to show how that monopoly was caused. He would show that there Naas nothing taxed so highly as this cheap beverage of the poor.—(Hear, hear.) —The tax on the rich man's champagne amounted to 27 per cent. and that on claret to 28 per cent., on Pert wine to 26 per cent., whilst the working man and industrious artisan paid on beer 165 per cent. —(Hear, hear.) This was one portion of the effect produced by this unequal imposition. In another shape it still op pressed the poorer class, whilst it left nearly un touched the rich. If a gentleman consumed in his family a quartcr of malt, it cost him 205., whilst to the artisan it would amount to 555.—( Hear, hear.) It was to these causes of unequal taxation that he attributed the evil, and not from any imaginary ad vantages arising to the publican. With respect to the diminished consumption of beer, be considered that it had been principally produced by the reduction of the duty on spirits. The contemplated change he, as one of the porter brewers, was ready to admit, would be attended with a heavy loss in their trade—but not one but what they could withstand; and, if the trade was to be thrown open, the brewers did not fear a fair com petition. But to the publican, who had embarked his capital in the purchase of the privilege of carrying on his trade, it must he attended with the most ruinous consequences. If this interference could be at all justified on public grounds, he hoped to see the spirit of free trade carried to the fullest extent —(Hear)—and not for the country gentleman to continue his advantage over the poor man. If free 'trade is to be the order of the day,The hoped it would be permitted to purchase corn and hops in foreign countries, where they could be purchased much cheaper; and, with respect to hops, of a finer description than in this country.—( Hear.) Mr. C. BARCLAY gave his Majesty's Govern ment credit for the motives which had induced them to bring forward this measure. He, however, consi• dered that the utmost attention ought to be paid to the representations of those who had embarked their property under the existing laws, and that no change ought to take place without the most mature deli beration. He thought that the petitioners should state their, grievances before the Committee ap pointed on the question. The petition was then brought up and read. It prayed that the House would not sanction the trade being thrown open, and also that they might be heard by Counsel against the Bill. The petition was referred to the Committee sit ting on beer licences. DISTRESS OF THE COUNTRY. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT presented a petition from Coventry, complaining of the distress prevail ing amongst numerous classes in that city, which they ascribed in some degree to the contracted state of the currency ; and praying a Reform in Parlia- went. Mr. FYLER agreed with the petitioners in some' points, whilst he differed from them in others — such, for example, as annual parliaments and elec tion by ballot. The petition was then read, and ordered to be printed. • Mr. DENISON presented petitions from the farmers of various places in Surrey, complaining of distress, and praying the repeal of the malt and beer lative beatings would tie amply considered in tic duties. Committee then sitting. Mr. FYLER presented a .petition from 2,400 The petition was read, and ordered to be printed, riband weavers of a parish in Coventry, complain- it purported to be the petition of certain inhabitants ing of their very distressed state.—Ordered to be of Liverpool , e ntr e a t in g the House to abolish the I printed. monopoly of the East India Cobnpany in the trade Mr. WODEHOUSE moved for a return of the to India. average price, of corn for the last ten years, pre- Mr. HUSKISSON presented a petition from the viously to 1825.—Oidered. Jews of Liverpool, praying to be relieved from their EAST INDIA MONOPOLY. present civil disabilities.—The petition was read and Mr. P. THOMSON said he had to present a laid on the table. petition from individuals, whose wealth, influence, Mr. O'CONNELL presented two petitions ie and respectability, placed them on a footing of equa- favour of Radical Reform in the Commons Housr lity with the highest classes of their fellow-subjects, of Parliament—the first from Tullsgli, in the county and entitled their sentiments on all subjects, but of Clare; the second from ten pet - eons signing ol more especially on that which was involved in their behalf, as he stated, of 30,000 inhabitates of Lon petition, to the most earnest and respectful attention don, convened at a public Meeting at the Eagle of the House. It related to the monopoly of the Tavern, City-road, on Tuesday last. The, pet;tioners, East India Company, in reference to which they he stated, in both cases attributed the present iinh held but one opinion, and that was embodied in the versed distress to the want of a thorough nit) radical petition which he had the honour to present. It Reform in that House, which he described as an in was not necessary for him, on the present occasion, stalment of the Oligarchy of the country, instead of to say any thing from himself, but he would merely a representation of the commonalty.—The petitions state the views which were taken by the petitioners beimg read, were ordered to be printed. concerning this momentous subject. He was grati- General GASCOYNE presented the petition of fled in thus having an opportunity of doing so, as it the Mayor, Burgesses, and Council of Liverpool, had been industriously represented that the mer- praying the abolition of the East India Com parry's chants of London, who were concerned in the East monopoly of the trade to India.—The petition was India trade, had separate interests, and entertained ordered to be referred to the Committee sitting on separate opinions, quite different from those already that subject. so generally expressed by the merchants of the out- Lord LEVESON GOWER brought rip, pur ports. The petition in his hand fully refuted those suant to the order of the House, the Charitable So assertions, and proved that the London merchants cieties of Ireland Estimates.—Laid on the table. made common cause with the parties to former pe- Mr. SLANEY presented a petition from the titions, and perfectly coincided in their sentiments. town of Oldham, in the county of Salop, against the They prayed for the unrestrained right of settle- truck system. ment of British subjects in India, and likewise for a THE POOR OF IRELAND. material alteration in the stamp duties. They, more- Mr. SPRING RICE, in bringing forward, pur over, sought for the complete separation of the suant to notice, his motion on the subject of the sovereign and commercial character of the East India l a bourite , " poor •of Ireland, adverted to the discus- Company. They likewise prayed that the Company sion had upon the subject last Session, when the might not be permitted in any degree to interfere in subject was brought under the notice of the House commercial pursuits, except for the purpose of oh- by a friend of his, who was not at present a Mem taining remittance. How far it might he advisable ber—Mr. Villiers Stewart. Though he (Mr. S. that such remittances should be procured by the Rice) could not fully concur in the resolution sub purchase of bills in the market, it was not then re- mitted on that occasion by his Hon. Friend, yet he quisite to examine; but in all that related to the was sure that if Mr. Villiers Stewart had continued monopoly generally, the petitioners united with the a Member of that House at the present time, he large bodies of the mercantile community, through- would not have objected to the motion with which out 'every part of the kingdom, in strenuously op- he then intended to conclude, namely—that a posing its continuance. Committee be appointed to inquire into the State The petition, which was as follows, was then of the labouring poor in bellied. After much re brought up, and ordered to be printed. gretting the absence of Mr. Villiers Stewart, and "To the Honourable the Commons of the United King- pronouncing a warm eulogium upon his character dom of Great Britain and Ireland, in Parliament and talents, he went on to say, that though he and assembled. that gentleman essentially differed as to the means " The humble Petition of the undersigned Merchants for effecting an improvement in the state of the la and Agents, connected with the Trade of the East booting poor of Ireland, yet they were animated by Indies, and resident in London, the same spirit, and anxious to bring about similar " Sheweth,—That your petitioners are deeply interested in the inquiry now pending in your Ho nourable House results. They now came to the conside ration of ' into the state of the trade between Great Britain, the- the state of the Irish poor, free from one of the East Indies, awl China,' as connected with a renewal of g reat difficulties and impediments which had here the Charter to the East India Company. tofore interrupted the consideration of any measures " That it is the opinion of your petitioners, from the for the imprrivement of Ireland—he alluded to the experience obtained since the opening of the trade to the r e li g ious dissensions which had so long distracted East Indies, by the b3d of George 111 and subsequent Ireland, and which were now so happily terminated. Acts, that the manufacturing, shipping, and commercial interests of the United Kingdom have derived very ma- He had understood from the Noble Lord opposite , that objection ' would he made to the appointment portant advantages therefrom. of a Committee, and he should therefore ha v e limit " That your petitioners confidently rely that , i n an y ed himself to the mere terms of his motion, were renewal of the Charter of the East India Company, due provision will be made to allow such free intercourse of he not ap British subjects with India , and to g ive to them such right mi g ht be p mistaken in Ireland ; and he a lso wished rehensive that his views and intentions of settling therein, as shalt (consistently with the security to explain his views because he did not desire to of the British Government, and the welfare of the native obtain support upon false grounds. The first pro population) be best calculated to promote the full deve- position which he meant to establish was, that there lopetnent of the internal resources of that country, and, by existed a case for inquiry. There was no one who the application of British shill and capital, improve its paid the slightest attention to the evidence laid upon various products, especially those of sugar, cotton, silk, the table of the House upon the subject of the Irish and tobacco; these being the principal means by which, in the opinion of your petitioners , a f urther extension of poor, could doubt that the re did exist a case for in quiry. In fact, all admitted that such a case existed. the valuable trade with India, now obstructed by the diffi c The next object, after acqu irin g information, ulty of obtaining returns, may be facili t ate d. " That, adverting to the tact of the Government of was to come to some practical result, and the India having recently imposed a heavy and most vexatious most effectual mead of effecting a beneficial burden on the commerce of that country, through the result would be to approach the inquiry arid the operation of the ' Stamp Regulation,' it is, in the opinion decision in a temper of moderation and discre of your petitioners, due to the commercial interests of tion. When once the inquiry should be determined India that the trade should be at once relieved from that on, he begged to assure the House that he should do burden, and protected against the imposition of any tax all in his power that their labours should not be al whatever by the local Government, without a fair oppor tunity being afforded to all parties affected thereby , of can- lowed to become a dead l et ter. It was the saying of an ancient sage that Hell was paved with broken vassing its merits and provisions, and of submitting to the resolutions. It had but too often been the practice Government such objections as they may entertain to the measure, previously to its acquiring the force of law. of that House to appoint Committees to examine " That it is the opinion of your petitioners, supported witnessess, to make Reports—most wise and pre tty the personal experience of many of them, that corn- dent and rational—but those Reports were 'nide mercial dealings, on the part of the Government of India, only to be neglect ed and forgotten. There was al whether as merchants or manufacturers, are destructive of ready before the House a great mass of evidence fair competition, and are, in consequence, calculated rather upon the subject of the people of Ireland, and he to depress than excite commercial enterprise through the only desired now to extend the inquiry as far as s:ountrienstsutionjectitieto mercantile prosperity ' • l t t is, ()f therefore, most tmohset might be necessary for bringing their information be entirely restrictedtt down to the present time. He hoped that the effect important of that i countrlyesEorousli;of that inquiry would be to disprove the exagge from all commercial dealings, save and except, in refer rated statements which they were every hour in the once to the export trade from India to Europe, it be abso lutely necessary to buy produce in o p en market, for the leak of hearing with resp ect to the state of Ire purpose of remittance in aid of the territorial demands on land, and the distress prevailing in that country. He. the London treasury, when no other means of supply can did not deny the existence of distress, and very con he obtained. siderable distress, but he altogether denied that the " That, whilst your petitioners express this opinion as distress existed to the extent which had been stated to the bounds which should beset to the commercial inter- in some quarters. It was decidedly his opinion that terference of the Government of India, they desire to be the poor of Ireland were by no means in a condition distinctly understood not to uphold the usefulness or ne- of such distress, relatively to those above them as cessity of even such limited transactions, believing, as they the English P oer were.. It had become very much do, that the condition of India will, under a free and o p en the practice to speak of the sinking and depressed competition of commerce, afford further proof to the ex condition of Ireland. He begged briefly to call the perience furnished lay all other countries in the world, that the work of remittance cmbe best performed by means of attention of the House t o the ex p orts of that cowl the industry, intelligence , a nd econom y , of merchants ince_ try to, England, and he should co nfine himself to a virtually interested in the result of their undertaking'. single case. Exactly a century ago, Sir Charles " That your petitioners refrain, at this time, from Williams stated—and he was considered good so making any declaration on the important question of the thority—that the exports of I r e land to En g land monopoly in the supply of tea to t his c ountr y now vested amounted annually to about 287 , 0001 . That state in tine East India Company , beca use, in their o p inion, that ment was written in the year 1729 . Now the ex subject is interwoven with v arious other considerations, ports from a tingle city—that which his Right Hon. besides those purely comme rcial, which render a full in- Friend near him represented—was no less in a single vestigation indispensably necessary for establishing a fair year than 2,163,000/. In everuarter there was and just decision as to the co urs e which it ma y be wise reason to believe that capital was growing every to pursue in furtherance of the common interests of the where throughout Ireland. He believed, too, that country. " But, pending the consideration which is now g ivin g to many of the gentlemen in that House connected this most important object, your petitioners cannot with- with the banking concerns of Ireland, could bear hold the expression of their opinion that the interests of testimony to the improving condition of the com- British merchants, shipowners, and manufacturers, ought mercial portion of the Irish people in other ways not to be any longer disregarded in relation to the corn- besides the - exports to England. The Honourable mecca of China; nor the expression of their hope, that Gentleman then briefly adverted to the condi merchants of this country shall be no longer excluded from the exercise of their skill and the em p lo y ment of tion of the labouring poor in Killarne y , to the numbers living by mendicity in Bandon and in their capital, in a lucrative branch of the commerce of the Cork, wor o in condition of the country from the cri ld, open to all other nations of Europe and Americo, and then proceeded to show the improv whilst the exclusion of tine private merchants of the g United Kingdom has, without produci n g an y correspond- mmal returns. The population, he observed, was ing benefit to the East India Company, had the direct e f- rapidly augmenting, and crime, so far from incress feet of checking the general commerce of the country, and ing, had considerably diminished of late years. In narrowing the consumption of its manufactures. 1823 the commitments were 15,000; in 1828, " These lacing the views which your petitioners humbly 14,600 —showing a difference o f 400 for the whole e ntertain on this important subjec t, t hey p r ay your ho n ourable House will adopt such measures as may afford island. The progress of crime had been advancin g greater facilities for the extension of tine trade with India in England in 1828 ; and (as we understood) the and China, promote its general pro s p erit y , and conduce to executions had increased ; while in Ireland the con trary was the case. In that country in 1823 the the improvement and welfare of the vast population of the British territories in the East. executions were 61; 1827, 27; 1828, 21, In 1823 " And your petitioners will ever pray." those convicted of seditious practices amounted to Mr. JEPII SON presented a petition tor the abo. 121 ; 1825, 9; 1827, 0; 1828, 3. Thus it would lition of slavery. be seen that the condition of Ireland had in more Mr. O'CONNELL said a few words in support ways than one, been materially ameliorated; but of the petition, which was laid on the table. antecedently to any measure of legislation with a Mr. HUSKISSON presented a petition from a view to its further improvement, it would be neces most numerous and respectable body of p erso ns. sary that the House should have its actual condition The Hon. Gentleman stated that this petition con _ before them, and that brought down to the latest tabled the signatures of every banker, every mer- . period. In moving for a Committee at that early chant, every ship-owner, and every respectable period of the Session, there was every reasonable tradesmen of Liverpool. It contained 7,000 sigma- prospect that its labours might be brought to a close tures. As a Committee was then sitting on the time enough to admit of practical results. The subject to which the petition referred, he did not next subject to which he should direct attention was think it a fit time to go into a discussion, but would the charge brought against the Irish gentry and merely state that it prayed that the East India middle classes that they showed no disposition to Company's monopoly might not be renewed. . relieve the wants and necessities of their poor fel , General GASCOYNE would also refrain from low-countrymen. National reflections might be discussion, and would merely observe, that, no ' easily made, but they sh ould not be made lightly. doubt, something like the pretext they had heard The Hun. Member then entered into a steterneut, that evening from the publicans would be set up in the object of which was to show that large sums opposition to the adoption of a free trade—viz., had been expended in Ireland on lunatic asylums, vested interests were at stake.—(Hear.) —He arid fever hospitals, on county hospitals, and other (General Gascoyne) was at a loss to know what public institutions in each of the four provinces. argument could be adduced for the continuance of County hospitals alone, he said,. cost 54,0001. e the exclusive trade to China. The interests of the year. He would next advert to the fever hospitals whole country were opposed to those of a few ; it . which were established all over the country, and all was in comp a rison as millions to 2 or 3,000 in- of which, except the one at Dublin, were supported dividuals. by local funds, and without costing the Government. Mr. ,A.STELL trusted this subject and all its re- I any thing. At all these hospitals, cases of fiver were treated with as great liberality and with as great success as in any hospitals of this country. 'ere were also establishments for the relief of sick persons, to the amount of 40t), supported by pri- ' vate subscription ; and at these establishments, dur ing the last year, half a million of persons were relieved. If gentlemen who sometimes censured - the want of such establishments in Ireland would look at that country, they would find that it was net deserving of their blame; anti it was to make thsm aware of this, that he had mentioned these estab islunents. He came then to the question, what was to be done for the Irish poor ? The first step was to ascertain what previous investigation tad been ma le into the subject- The question of introducing poor laws had been discussed, once :tiredly and once incidentally, in that House. In 1801, his /I;glit Hon. Friend (Sir J. Neivport) whose name was always foremost in all works for the rood of Ireland, had moved for a Committee to inquire into the state of the poor in Ireland. That Committee had reported, that to introduce the English system of poor laws into Ireland, would be highly injurious to that country, and not advan tageous to the lower classes of the people. In 1822 the subject was investigated incidentally, in the Committee anointed to inquire into the employ ment of the poor in Ireland. The report of that Committee was tecommewled to him by having re ceived the sanction of Mr. Ricardo, and it stated . that any system of relief which lessened the bide- oendence of the peasantry, and deprived labour of its appropriate inducement, would be injurious to the industry of the people, and impede the improve ment of the loner classes. He referred to these two authorities, not because he would then have the Howe to act on them, not considering them as con clusive that what was not wise then would not be wise now, but merely as authorities worthy of con sideration, and to show the House that if these opi nions were erroneous, it ought not to come to a directly opposite conclusion without first instituting a full inquiry, anti hearing evidence on all the parts of the question. He had before only mentioned houses of industry ; he Would then refer to them, to show what would be the effect of a compulsory rate. The Hon. Member for Wicklow proposes to make a compulsory rate for the whole country, for that was involved in his proposal for establishing poor laws in Ireland. This principle ought, there fore, in the first instance, to be discussed. Before they extended houses of industry, they ought to • ascertain whether they had, on the whole dimi' nished or added to the sum of human misery. The experiment had already been tried on a large scale, and the illustration involved no question of local ex penses. The experiMent of a poor rate for the House of Industry at Dublin had been tried on the largest possible scale, and its effects ought to he known be fore they introduced the poor laws itt Ireland. It made no difference that the rate had come out of the pockets of the people of England, as fax as its effect on the people' of Ireland was concerned.--- - Since the Union a sum had been voted for that establishment amounting to 803,0001.; and among the estimates then on the table, there was, he be- lieved, an additional grant for it. The effects had been ascertained by an inquiry instituted by Mr. Grant and Mr. Secretary Peel, when they held office in Ireland, and the report made to them sheaved that that House of Industry had totally failed in its objects of suppressing mendicity, and, in its effects, had augmented, by bringing destitute people in from the country, the number of poor is Dublin. If such establishments were formed in every part of the country, what would be the re' sults? They would entail heavier burthens and s greater number of poor on cities and places already burthened like Dublin with poor, unless the intro duction of poor laws into Ireland was united with some provision that would be tantamount to the I:tws of settlement, and would limit relief to per sons residing in particular places. If his Hon. Friend would examine the establishments of this description in Ireland in detail, he would find that it would be no remedy to establish Houses of Industry all over Ireland. In one he knew that when the fever pre vailed the medical man never attended, but wrote his prescriptions at the distance of a mile. In o ne 1 he had seen a dead child lying in bed with its me thyl-, presenting the moot deplorable scene of human suffer ng. He would beg the House and his Hon. Friend not to suppose that establishments at the public charge would not lead to many such scenes. He knew that some benevolent men---Dr. Dave nant, for instance—who had a scheme for a great hospital, that was to yield 1,200,0001. to the public treasury ; and Sir Josius Child, who had a vague notion of public benefit to be derived from such institutions, fancied that they might be both useful to the people, and advantageous to the public.-.-- But whatever might be the case with the English peasantry, he was sure that the Irish people would never like that charity which was accompanied with restraints and fetters. Establishments supported at the public charge could not be kept free from local abuses. He thought Dr. Franklin'• opinion w as a wise one—that the more the law did for the poor the less they would do for themselves; and the less there was dose for them by the law the richer they would become. It was proposed by many gentles men to introduce the English poor laws in Iry land ; but while they proposed this, they were not contented with the poor laws in England. Since the passing of the 43d of Elizabeth, there had been an uninterrupted series of attempts to depart from the principle of that Act, or to amend the poor laws. He was not aware by what alchemy the English gentlemen were to transfer all the gold of this system to Ireland, without any of that alloy • they compla;ned of. He should like to see the English poor laws first of all adapted to the state of England, and the improvements in them carried into practice here before they were extended to Ireland. Not to refer to the more ancient attempts which had bees made to improve these laws, he would merely m en. tion the names of Mr. Pitt, Mr. Sturges Bourne , the present Attorney-General, Mr. Nolan, and the • Hot'. Member for Shrewsbury, as gentlemen s eho had tried to amend the English poor laws, and had not succeeded. He was sorry that the Hon. Member for Newark was not in his place, particularly as he . had great respect for him, and conceived that Ire' land was much indebted to him for the attention he had paid to its interests, but he was sorry that the Hon. Member was not in his place, as he meant to make some observations on his opinions on the sub' jest. That Hon. Member was one of the ablest supporters of the plan of giving poor laws to Ire' land; and his argument was, that they would cone, pet the absentees to return to Ireland , and woul d place a barrier to the clearing of the land. Against, 1 the Hon. Member he would balance t h e p olitico' economists, though lie was anxious to separate.hior self from them as far as their doctrines related t° ' absenteeism, for he never could believe that the al); settee of the higher classes from any country hod no evil effects physically or morally on the lowe d classes of the people ; but while the Honourabl e Member defended the introduction of poor 10 0 into England as a barrier against clearing tl o land, the political economists urged on the f ree sure as supplying an additional inducement f' 7% hnded gentlemen to dispossess their tenants and deg', the land of the peasantry . For his part he did not Iv!, to give the landlord s an y additi onal inducement tv clear the land an d drive awa y th e i r tenantry. .01' admitted, with the Hon. Mem ber for Newark, i t there was a great w ant of em ployment , - b ut he di', fered from him in supposing that the poor laer' would provide a remedy against the evil. On who 0 principle could it be said that introducing p oor lave i into Ireland would add to t h e employ ment of th, people ? The dem and for labour de p ended on the quantity of capital; and how was that to be 8 41 mentcd by poor laws ? They would only ta/‘° funds from the occupiers of land to transfer them t`: the paupers—they would take money out o f tb; pocket of one man to put it into another. A po ° rate would diminish capital arid lessen the empl o r , uncut of the poor.—(Hear.)—He wished to give 4' 1 ployment to the labourer ; but a poors' rate only take . money out of the pocket of one man to transfer it t. the pocket of auother,—(Hear.)—The adoptigo v ment as men to I posed t parishes possess Warden s the trio apply it recomm sentees absentei Duke:ol Marqui mentior for the those o induced Upon t oversee plish st tleme n legislat of legiE and h gentler princip must be lbw useful, countri that as labour to mat —the to pros not, bl land. laws 1 Were r labour land c here thitt si south poor 20s. 8 Were then Initte these these of lot of th d u eet here end ( that 1 They