The Sun. — London, England, 1833-02-19 00:00:00

more then 1/. 55., instead of bring, on 10,000/. 95/. 4s. Thus, in the former case, the poor man paid nearly 11. per cent. and the rich man 3d. per cent., and so on. In bill• of a looser date than two months, the partiality was still greater, weighing still more heavily on the needy man. How could such a legislation he ? At first he was dis posed to put it to the account of night-work—of ire brietv—(Laughter)—for he could hardly think Noblemen and Gentlemen would be guilty of such unworthy leaning to their own interests.—(An interruption here taking place, Mr. Cobbett sail, " Very well, Sir, no hurry —no hurry at all." Order was soon restored, and Mr. Cobbett proceeded.) In the case of Insurance or Lives, where the sotto insured amounted to less than SCOL, the stamp was 1/. ; if to 500/. to t 2/. ; if to 5,000/. or upwards, 5/.—so that the man who insured 10,0001 paid only Is. per ceut., while he who insured for less than 500/ paid tis. 6d. per cent.—the man of scanty means psying nearly seven times as much as the man of wealth. As to receipts. If the sum were for 2/ , the stamp was ; it for 1,000/., 10s., when in due proportiou it ought to he Si. 6s. St The poor man here paid more than sixteen times as much tax as the rich man, and if the sum went on to a hundrea thousand pounds, or a million, the stamp was still only 10s. For any sum, ton, expressed to be in full of all demand., whether for two, or a million of pounds, the stamp was always 10s., so that it might be l'airly said that the poor man in such a case paid a thou sand titres as much as the rich one. He would then refer to the subject of apprais-ments. Here the higher I )r , !ers had again the advantage, and they knew well how to keep it. No people surpassed them in that ; and it appeared to him, ti.at of them all, the nobility exceed the rest of the landowners. The stamps on appraisements offered them another advantage. They could not miss that. The stamp on an lapraisement not amounting to 50/., was 2s. 6d. If the things appraised amount to 5001. in value. the stamp duty was 155. ; but if they amounted to more than 500/., as they frequently did to 5,0001. and sometimes even to half a million, nay, if they exceeded that—though the amount wus a million of money or more stamp duty was but one pound. They heard that. and could they know that such had been the fact ? He bo oe d they who had heard this statement had not partici faated in making the law, and he hoped they would not participate in keeping it in force. What ! make the poor tradesman pay, as in this instance he did, nearly forty times as much on the sale of his furniture as the Noble man (lid on the sale of his estate ?—while the tax on corn. too, was kept up to maintain the high value of his estate at the same time? He now came to another part of the subject. He did intend—and his Hon. Colleague knew that such had been his intention—to produce calculations on this subject. If he bad seen any marks of an intention on the part of the Government to do anything for the people, he should not have moved this resolution. But be saw no such intention. On the contrary, he saw an intention to force all their measures, like every thing else, and not to take if one farthing of the taxes; and there fore it was that he made this exhibition of the injustice of the stamp laws. All knew the end he had in view. Be cause he perceived in them a resolution--a determination —to carry through and enforce every measure, even at the point of the bayonet, he brought this matter under the consideration of the House. He now came to a part of this abominable Act—and, till he did come to it, he almost believed that a great part of those who passed it did not know what they were doing. He saw an Hon. Gentleman take up the book, to see if Ilia statements were correct. The Hon. Gentleman will fund nothing in it contrary to what he had stated. Bitt, however, as it was terribly wicked—(A laugh)—to be out of a word in quoting an Act of Parliament, he would read the port. Till be came to that part of the Act, he thought they had overlooked the nature of the Act they were passing ; yet still it was strange that, by accident, they should make laws for the rich, and against the pour, in every inntance. He was glad, however, to say, that there was one part where they were perfectly impartial. In that part, the taxation went on decreasing in degree, from the rich down to the poor. What was that part ? It was in the duty upon apprenticeships. In apprenticeships— who re all the parties were tradesmen—there were no sons of Noblemen, nor sons of Baronets, nor of Ministers of State, who were apprentices. " Oh! certainly ; do take care not to let the poor pay as ranch as the rich."—(A laugh.) That was in apprenticeships where the amount of duty went on regularly, or almost regularly increasing with the amount of the premium, till it reached 1,000/., sod they supposed, of course, that there would not he any premium above 1,000/. They were just in that case, and he had to thank them for being so. But why did they not observe the same rule in other cases, where they them selves were concerned? They did not, in cases where they were to be affected as the owners of estates. They showed there, at least, that they understood something about Cocker, as an Hon. Baronet had told his fellow parishioners—(Hear, and a laugh.) An Hon. Gentleman in presenting a petition from Woolwich, had called this mode of nxation a wicked partiality. They had shown that partiality in this Act, At last, after laying taxes on every body else, there was one matter of relationship which they had not forgotten, which they had put at the end of the Act, and which was a total exemption from the opeeatiou of the Act, upon all bonds, contracts, mortgages, conveyances, deeds, and instruments whatever, exempted from the stamp duty, by the 17th Geo. 111. c. 53—for what, did they think ? For building, repairing, or pur chasing houses or other buildings for the beneficed clergy. --(lleac, hear.) Would the Reformed Parliament sane tine that hear.) Would they ? Would they ? Then, if they did, let them go afterwards, if they dared, and look their constituents in the lace.—( Hear, hear.) He should now go to another part of the Act, and there he should show them the ingenuity used in framing it. It was said that the country gentlemen were lubberly jolter• head fellows; but see bow careful they were here. They looked after the timber and underwood—their lands and tenements—so closely, that one might think they were tied to the trade of a grasier, or butcher, or timber dealer. An auction duty of 711. in the pound was imposed on the amount of the sale of any" freehold, customary copyhold, or leasehold lands, tenements, houses, or hereditaments, and any shares in the capital or joint stork of any corporation, or chattered company, and of any annuity or sums of mo ney charged thereon ; and of any ships or vessels, and of any reversionary interest in the public funds, and of any plate or jewels," Tradesmen had no plate and jewels— (Hear, hear, hear)—and so plate and jewels were to pay 7d. in the pound on their value ; but in all other things tradesmen and farmers, reduced by po verty to sell their furniture, these people, who could least afford it, were to pay one shilling in the pound ; while the " careless and generous" Nobleman who made the laws, was to pay, if he sold lois property, '7d. in the pound—all the rest of the people were to pay Is. But was that all ? Far from it. There was a duty of 2d. in the pound (value) on wool sold at any auction, provided it was sold for the benefit of the growers or first pur chasers. But if it came from Hampshire to London, and sold, and was carried thence clown to Yorkshire, and then sold, it became liable to an auction duty of Is. in the pound. Everything was so basely partial in this law— every thing in it was mean and dirty, and then it was the work of the Nobility. That was not all ; no, nor half; for there was, besides what he load already mentioned, a total exemption from auction duty of several other things, which he should now mentoon—" all goods distrained for rent, tor fur non-payment of tithes." Aye, aye, goods Bo distrained b. longed to the Lord ; the tax must not touch th, m. There might he a tax on the farmer, who was obliged to sell his stock ; but not on the Lord, when the Lord took that stock four rent. In the next place, he called on them to mark the atrocity of this—yes, the atro city—for it was impossible to use words strong enough to characterise it. All sa'es by auction for letting of lands and tenements, for lives or years, to be created by the, person on whose account such auction shall be held, were exempted from the auction duty. So were all sales of woods, coppices, produce of mines or quarries, or mate rials for working the same ; or on the sale of any cattle, and live or dead stock, or unmanufactured produce of land, so as such sale of woods, coppices, produce of mines or quarries, cattle, corn, stock, or produce of land be made, whilst they continue on the lands pro ducing the same, and by the owner of such lands, or proprietor of such mines, or their agent. Did they mean to sit there, and represent that such laws ought still to continue in force ? Were they the friends of the people, if they could bring themselves to declare that they would not look into this matter ?—(Hear.) Such were time facts of the case. Comment or advert ors them he should not, for it would be impossible to make any observations stronger than were the facts themselves. What ought the House to do, then, if this state of facts was true ? Hon. Gentlemen would have time to look into these Acts, and see whether he was not right. There ought to be a Committee of the House to take into con sideration these grievances —they ought to tell the peo pie that at least they would look into these grievances. Let them tell the people so now. He would try them now. He should conclude with moving this resolution-- " That on the Ist of March tbis'House will take into consider otion the nature, tendency, and effect of the se veral Acts of Parliament which impose taxes on stamps, and on things sold by auction." All he asked, then, was to take these things into consideration. He would divide the House on the motion—he certainly would' do that, and let the people see how many there were who were for taking these things into consideration. He did not want them to pledge *themselves that they would modify these • • o p A' taxes; he only wanted them to say that they would take the matter into consideration. There had been a talk of taking 30 per cent, from the fundbolders ; but there would have been no need of that, if they who had so lona had the benefit of these unjust laws had been pressed to PaY up their arrears of taxes. If any„,Noble Lord or Hon. Baronet had e.caped paying. taxes, that in thirty years amounted to 60,0001., the people bad suffered from that ; for the Government had borrowed that amount of money, which they need not have done if the taxes had been fairly levied on the Noble Lord or the tinn. Baronet.—(Hear.) The Hon. Member concluded by moving,— " That, by the Act of Parliament, passed on the 11th of July, 1815, being c. 184, of the 55th of George the Third, im posing certain duties on stamps, amounting annually, in the aggregate, to upwards of seven millions a year, the utmost care has been taken to exempt the nobility and great landed pro prietors from bearing any but a very small share of the bur den ; and, further, to make the tax heavier and heavier, in proportion to the smallness of the amount of the property on which it is levied; so that each tax goes on, pressing heavier and heavier, from the very rich down to the very poor, as will clearly appear by a reference to the letter of the said Act. " That, by this Act, various duties of legacies, and on pro. perty coining by intestate successions, are imposed, applicable to the different degrees of relationship between the legatees and the successors and the deceased, beginning at one per cent. and going on to ten per cent. ; but that, from these duties all freehold property is wholly exempt; and that therefore from this tax, which is, on an average, about three per cent. on all other property in the kingdom left by will, or coming by intes tate succession, the estates of the nobility and landed gentry ,including the advowsons and lay tithes) are exempted, while the father, the mother, the child, of the fundholder, the trades man, the farmer, or other person bequeathing personal pro perty, has one per cent, to pay on the amount of the legacy or intestate succession; while a brother who has had a thousand pounds left him by a brother has thirty pounds to pay in this duty, and while a distant relation of the deceased has, on a legacy of the same amount, to pay one hundred pounds. " That in regard to probates of wills and letters of administra tion, if the deceased leave property above the value of twenty pounds, his successors have to pay a stamp duty of ten shil lings ; that is to say, at the rate of two pounds per cent. on the value of the property ; but that, if the party dying leave by will any sum from thirty thousand to five hundred thousand pounds, the duty is only one pound ten shillings per cent., and that, in this case again, all freehold property is exempted. " That, in case of conveyances of all sorts, the duty upon a thing of five pounds value, or on any thing under twenty pounds value, is ten shillings, and the duty upon a thing of two hun dred thousand pounds value is a thousand pounds ; so that in the latter case it may be less than ten shillings per cent. on the value of the thing conveyed ; and in the former case it is two hundred shillings per cent. on the value of the thing conveyed, and thus, in this case, the poor man pays twenty times as much tax as the rich man on pre cisely the same sort of property, and under the same Act of Parliament ; and that, as the Act will show, the weight of the duty goes on increasing from ten shillings per cent. to 200 shillings per cent., exactly in the proportion that the value of the property becomes smaller and smaller in amount. " That, in the case of leases of lands, tenements, &c., where the yearly rent is five pounds, the stamp duty is one pound, or twenty per cent., but where the yearly rent is a thousand pounds, or any sum above that, the stamp duty is ten pounds, or one per.,cent. ; and that this tax goes on, from four hundred a year rental to five pounds a year rental, getting heavier and heavier, but increasing in the small rentals in a most dispropor tionate degree, " That, in the case of mortgages, bonds, and securities of every description, if the amount of the mortgage, for instance, be twenty-five pounds, the amount of the stamp is one pound, or eight shillings per cent. ; but, if the amount of the mortgage he twenty thousand rounds, the amount of the stamp is twenty pounds, or two shillings pet cent. ; that, in this case, the poor man pays forty times as much tax as the rich man ; and that the stamp is no more if the amount of the mortgage be a hun dred thousand pounds; so that, in a case like this, the poor man pays two hundred times as much tax as the rich man ; and that, in this case also, the tax goes on increasing in weight as the taxed person becomes poor. " That, in the case of annuities, if the annuity be ten pounds or under, the amount of the stamp is one pound ; and that, in due proportion, an annuity of two thousand pounds ought to pay a stamp duty of two hundred pounds, but, instead of that, it pays a stamp duty of only twenty-five pounds ; and if the annuity be for ten thousand pounds or any greater amount, it still pays a stamp duty of only twenty-five pounds ; so that here the poor man pays forty or fifty times as much tax as the rich ; and that, in this case also, the tax goes on, getting heavier and heavier as the parties become more and more poor. " That, in the case of promissory notes and bills of exchange not exceeding two months after date, if the sum be forty shil lings or above forty shillings and not exceeding five pounds five shillings, the stamp is one shilling. and, in the same proportion, the stamp on three thousand pounds ought to be twenty-eight pounds eleven shillings, but that it only pays fifteen shillings ; that, for any higher sum, if for ten thousand pounds, the stamp is no more than one pound five shillings, instead of being ninety-five pounds four shillings ; and that, therefore, in the former case, while the poor man pays nearly one pound per cent., the rich man pays sixpence per cent., and in the latter case, while the poor man pays nearly one pound per cent., the rich man pays only threepence per cent. ; and that, therefore, in the first case the poor man pays forty times as much as the rich man, and i❑ the latter case nearly eighty times as much as the rich man ; and here, as in all the former cases, the tax becomes heavier and heavier as the tax-payer becomes poorer and poorer; and that in bills of a longer date than two months the partiality is still greater, and weighs still more heavily on the needy man. " That, in the case of insurance of lives, where the sum in sured amounts to less than five hundred pounds, the stamp amounts to one pound; that if it amount to five hundred pounds the stamp is two pounds; that if it amount to five thousand pounds or upwards the stamp is five pounds ; so that the man who insures ten thousand pounds pays only one shilling per cent. while he who insures for less than five hundred pounds, and suppose that to be three hundred pounds, pays six shillings and eightpence ; and thus the man of scanty means pays nearly seven times as much as the man of wealth. " That, in the case of receipts, if the sum be two pounds the stamp is twopence, if the sum be a thousand pounds the stamp is ten shillings, when, in due proportion, it ought to be eight pounds six shillings and eightpence ; that thus the poor man pays more than sixteen times as much tax as the rich man; and if the sum go on increasing to a hundred thousand pounds, or a million, still the stamp is only ten shillings ; and that, for any sum expressed to be in full of all demands, whether it be for two pounds or for a million of money, the stamp is always ten shillings ; so that in this case it may be fairly said that the poor man pays a thousand times as much tax as the rich. " That, in the case of appraisements, not exceeding the value of fifty pounds in the value of the thing appraised, the stamp is two and sixpence; that if the thing appraised amount in value to five hundred pounds the stamp is fifteen shillings; but if the thing appraised exceed five hundred pounds in value, though it amount to a million of money, or more, the stamp is but one pound ; so that here the tax falls almost wholly on persons in the middle rank of life ; and the estates of the nobility and landed gentry are all nearly exempted; that an estate in value of a hundred thousand pounds ought to pay an appraisement stamp of two hundred and fifty pounds, instead of the one pound which it now pays ; so that here the people of the middle rank of life pay, in many cases, two hundred and fifty times as much as the rich. " That, with regard to apprenticeships, the parents of a poor boy, who give no premium at all with him, have two pounds to pay for the indentures and the counterpart; that in this case, however, where there are no persons but tradesmen concerned, the stamp duty goes on gradually and fairly from thirty pounds to a thousand pounds, a premium under thirty pounds paying one pound stamp, and a thousand pounds paying sixty pounds; because, in this case, the nobility, clergy, and landed gentry, are not concerned; and here we observe that, while the poor boy's parents are thus taxed, the duties or settlements made by the rich pay only a twenty.five shilling stamp on a thousand pounds. - - " That there is a total exemption from this stamp-tax for all bonds, contracts, mortgages, conveyances, deeds, and instru ments, for making provision for building, repairing, or purchas. ing houses, or other buildings, for the beneficed clergy in their benefices. " That, by several Acts of Parliament, ending with 55Geo. 111., e. It:, which Acts impose duties on things sold by auction, a duty of sevenpence in the pound is imposed in Great Britain on the amount of the sale of any interest in possession or rever sion, in any freehold, customary, copyhold, or leasehold lands, tenements, houses or hereditaments, and any share or shares in the capital or joint stock of any corporation or chartered company, and of any annuities or sums of money charged there on, and of any ships and vessels, and of any reversionary interest in the public funds, or of any plate or jewels ; but that, on all sales of furniture, fixtures, pictures, books, horses, and carriages, and all other goods and chattels whatever, there is a duty of one shilling in the pound ; while on wool, sold for the benefit of the landowner or his tenant, or the first purchasers, the duty is only twopence in the pound; and that from this duty all sales of goods distrained for rent or tithes, and all sales of leases of land or tenements, and all sales of woods, coppices, cattle, live or dead stock, and all unmanufactured produce of land, and of all produce of mines, when the sales are made on the lands, or at the mines, are wholly exempted, as well as all the produce of quarries, or of implements used in quarries, mines, or farms : and that thus, while every product of the hand of man has to bear this tax in almost a double degree, compared with the lands and tenements themselves, the produce of the land bears no part of this tax, which is thus shifted from the shoulders of the great and the rich, and made to fall almost exclusively on the middle and working classes of society. " That, on the first day of March next, this House will take into its consideration the nature, tendency, and effects of the several Acts of Parliament which impose taxes on stamps, and on things sold by auction." Dr. BALDWIN seconded the motion. Lord ALTHORP said that the cases alluded to by the lion. Member for Oldham as cases of inequality in the stamp laws and the duty on auctions, arose in some mea sure from the stamp duties being divided into different classes ; so that the proportion of one duty to another was not so accurately usarked as it might have been. He ad mitted thnt when the property came to equal a large amount, the stamp duty was not so high as it would have been if the rate of increase from the lowest sums had been regularly continued. They were regular to a certain ex tent. The Honourable Gentleman would find that in every case of taxation, for instance in the assessed taxes, when the amount became considerable, the per tentage on which the taxes had been calculated Wei diminished. As to what had been said about the duty on the transfer of f'reeholda, the Hon. Member should recollect that the ex pense of conveying freehold property was greater than on the transfer of personal property.—(Hear.) That was one of the reasons on which the amount of duty was small. Another ground was, that if the legacy duty on the landed property of the country was considerable, the whole of that property in a little more than a century would get into the hands of the Government.—(Hear.) He was not answerable for Acts of Parliament passed in 1515 —(Hear)—but he believed that what he had stated was then, and had been since, the reason given for the enactments in question. With respect to the stamp duties altogether, ever since he had been in office, he had wished to bring them under the consideration of Parliament.— (Hear, hear.) The Bills on the subject were prepared Uear)_btse he would leave Hen. Members to guess how much was to done, when he told them that 240 Acts re quired to be consolidated. There were 11 Acts to be passed, and he appealed to any one Hon Member, espe cially if that lion. Member had had a seat in the last Parliament, whether, in the state of things that had ex:sted within the last two years, it would have been an easy matter to pass 11 Bills through Parliament.—( Hear.) He was not ri.ev under the same difficulties, and either himself or some other person connected with the Govern ment would be prepared to bring the subject of the stamp duties under consideration. The Hon. Member would then have the opportunity of discussing the difference of the scale of euties. He agreed, in some measure, with the Hon. Member, that some of the duties on the lower sums were too high, and that some alteration was feces_ nary.—(Hear, hear.) But he did not think that such an teteration as the Hon. Member seemed to want Aught to be made; nor did he believe that the Hon. Metnber him self, on a fuller consideration of the matter, and after hear ing all that could be said, would entertain exactly his pre sent opinions. He (Lord Althorp) should object to agree ing to the present resolution, taking as it did the Hiau•e by surprise ; but he hoped and trusted that at another time, and in a more regular manner, the subject would come fairly under the consideration of the House. With respect to the matter mentioned by the Hon. Seconder, the Member tor Cork, as to the taking off the Glass Duty, he had no limitation in declaring that his wish had been to take off the duty on that manufacture ; but he was bound to say, that after the taxes which had been repealed, and consi dering the situation in which we now stood, he could not make any promise as to the removal of that duty. The fh n. Member for Oldham bad rep , esentel that the stamp ditties pressed on the poorest classes of the people. On the poor, but not on the poorest, he admitted that they did. —(Some Hon. Member said across the table, " Indirectly they press upon the poorest.") Why, it was impossible to invent any tax that directly or indirectly would not press upon every class in the community. All must have that effect. He confessed that if he had his choice, there were others which bore more directly on the industry and comforts of the poor, that he should prefer seeing taken off.—(Hear, hear.) He did not suppose, but that if he went over the statement of the Hon. Member for Oldhern, he should find it correct as to the facts stated ; but he must say, that he did not agree with that Hon. Member in his inferences. It might be true that the effect of these taxes was what the Hon. Member described it ; but he could not agree that they had been impt-sed in an unequal manner with the view and intention of relieving the rich and pressing on the poor. If that was their effect, it was most unfertunate ; but he must think that the Hon. Member had in some degree exaggerated the inequality and its consequences. Mr. O'CONNELL said, it seemed to him that the case had be:-n made stronger by the observations of the Noble Lord than it had been left by the statement of the Hon. Member; for the statement of the Noble Lord had, in effect, shown that there were ether taxes in which the same inequality existed. That inequality did oppress the poor. He could not agree with the Noble Lord that the poorest ci trts were not oppressed by these taxes, for every man who wanted to rent a tenement of M. a year—(and wretched indeed must he be who in England did not rent a tenement as good as that)—every such man was op pressed by these taxes.—(Cties ot " Hear, hear.") He hoped that the Noble Loid would consent to a Com mittee; for to come and tell them that there were eleven Acts of Parliament, and that they should be brought in it some other time, was nor affording that practical relief which the people of England were entitled to expect. He should suggest to the Hon. Member for Oldham to with draw this resolution, and bring it forward in another shape. Mr. HUNIE also recommended the Hon. Member for Oldham to pursue that course. Mr. D. W. HARVEY had never, since he had had a ReAt in that House, heard from any Hon. Member so straightforward a statement as that which the Hon. Member for Oldham had just made. He heartily con curred with the object of the motion. Mr. ROBINSON thought it would be more easy to find olij,ct:ons in point of form to the motion of the Hon. Member for Oldham, than to answer it in substance. He wished to suggest that, instead of having a Committee on the Stamp Acts, they should have a Committee upon the taxes generally. He asked the Hon. Member for Old bent not to embarrass the proceedings of the House, by pressing his motion to a division to-night. Mr. COBBETT should be guided in his course by that which he thought most conducive to the good of the coun try, without much regard to the convenience of the House, and none to the consideration of what might be for or against his own character. He wished to make two or three remarks en what had fallen from the Noble Lord.— (Order.) The SPEAKER intimated that the present was not the fit occasion, according to the forms of the House .; Mr. FAITHFUL hoped that the motion would not be withdrawn. Mr. WARBURTON concurred in the principle of the resolutions; and if now withdrawn, printed, and brought forward on a future day, ha bad no doubt they would re ceive fuller and more satisfactory attentio❑ than if they were now pressed to a division. A MEMBER under the Gallery suegested that they should be separated, and that the proposal for inquiry should stand by itself'. Mr. LLOYD recommended the adoption of the sugges tion of the lion. Member for Middlesex. Mr. RUTHVEN declared that, although he approved of the principle of the resolutions, he would not thus hastily and prematurely vote for them. Strangers were ordered to withdraw, hut Mr. Cobhett consenter not to press the question at present. IRELAND. On the bringing up by Mr. I3ERNAL of the report of the Committee of Supply for granting three millions, Mr. O'CONNELL rose and began to speak in a tune of so much salemnity that only fragments of his few first sentences were audible. He talked of his long afflicted and oppressed country and of the terms " brutal and san guinary," which be had applied to the speech trom the throne on the first day of the session. The address, how ever, had received the sanction of the House, and he should therefore sly nothing of it now. His present object was not to characterise by any at'empt at strength of language the proceedings about to be adopted in Ireland; the sub ject would be degraded and the cause injured if be de scended to personalities ; and in adverting to the projected measure, he wished to be discovered to be an Irishman only by the infallible test of accent. He would fain speak only as a lover of freedom and of the Constitution—as an Englishman or a Scotchman would speak upon a topic in teresting to all hearts. He was desirous of characterising that measure as if it were proposed at once to outlaw the Scottish nation—to abolish her rights, and to place her liberties_ at the mercy of officers of two years standing.-- (Cheers.) Tranquillity o f temper was a proo f o f deter mination, and this he must say, that were he an English man, and such a measure brought forward applicable to England, lie should think death preferable.—(Cheers.) Though " the blond would follow where the knife was driven," the " iron had not yet entered the soul ;" and detesting slavery as if he were an Englishman, he could not but be deeply sensible of the folly, the maduss, the wickedness of those who would now crown all the mis chiefs and miseries of Ireland by the extinction of the last spark of her liberty.—(Cheers.) Before he went farther, he perhaps had a right to say a trw words in self vindication. It had been insinuated by one Right Hon. Gentleman, and broadly asserted by another, that he had instigated large tithe meetings, and had then shrunk from attending them : the statement had been repeated, and on its repetition, cheered. Never was an assertion so totally destitute of fact; for the great tithe meetings took place when be (Mr. O'Connell) was absent from Ireland : if he had been in Ireland, perhaps they would not have taken place ; but he would undertake to prove, if the House would give him the opportunity, that the tithe meetings originated with an intimate friend of, and a man who had received much favour from, Lord Anglesea.—(Cheera.) As for shrinking from attending, he never hivi had the choice, for he was 300 miles distant from all the tithe meetings. The moment the circular letter was issued prohibiting those tithe meetings, they ceased, and he was in this country. He only appealed, therefore, to the humanity of gentlemen who had been in the habit of hearing him calumniated. But (continued the Hon. and Learned Gentleman) I pass that by—l have said enough upon the subject. The measures against Ireland, to which I have alluded, are said to be justified on grounds which are not at present legitimately before use(Cheers) —but it 1 am to believe public report, the drivelling of ate, and the dotage of old feminine characters would be insulted, if it could be supposed that they would receive, as reasons for such a measure, the grounds that have been stated. In this House it has been said, that the present Ministers are entitled to such confidence that you might at once put at their disposal the liberties of Ireland—that they have heaped such benefits on Ireland, that they have deserved the entire control of her destinies. Now, I wish, first, that their claim to this despotism should be a little investigated. Let us see what they have done to pacify Ireland, before they seek to enrage her. They have introduced two measures ; the first is Church Re form—that is the immediate boon to Ireland ; hut beyond one single advantage, it gives no present relief—it gives nothing beyond the church cess. It is purely prospec tive ; it holds out a promise for future days, but it does nut diminish the present amount of evil. Let us consider, ti:en, the extent of the boon ; and let me observe, that I met the proposition of Government cheerily and heartily, and I do not now mean to retract any part of my appro bation. A benefit to Ireland comes with double relish from its novelty.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord calculated the advantage at 60,0001. or 70,0001 a-veer. I think he under calculated it, and teat I could dernonstrite, it need were, that it will be 80,000/., or at least 70.000/. a.year. Yet the Noble Lord stated the entire sum then saved at 70,000/. . _ _ . • L rd ALTHORP said across the table, that he had stated it at 80,0001. _ . Mr. (.` CONNELL—Whether 70,0001. or 80,0001., it do, s not make much difference. Does the Noble Lord mean that the Church cess is equal to one-tenth of the whole revenues of the Church ? Take the Church cess and the entire enormous revenues of the Church in acres, rent, and tithes, and will anybody say that one is equal to one-tenth of the other ? But I only throw this out that the Noble Lord may not allow himself to be deluded. Be yond that what does this Bill do? It does not lessen the weight of a single burden : it gives no relief: it does not suspend the tithe huntfor one moment: pigs will still be re• morselessfy chased, and corn and hay wilt be seized as ruth lessly as before. Nor does the Bill contemplate any pro spective reduction ; but I see that it must infallibly fellow, and therefore I thank him. The measure admits the principle and the fact that the Church establishment in Ireland is greater than is ereled for by the necessities of the country—that it is quite as great as the Protestants of Ireland require. It cashiers ten out of twenty-two Bishops as of no use, and I do not think that a Reformed Parliament is likely again to admit the practice, that those who are of no service shall he paid just as it they were. The Bishop of Waterford, for instance, is to be soniethine like a dummy at whist—(Laughter)—there are to ',ley the game, while he is to do nothing, and it is cut of the question to suppose that the 'Hense, as at present constituted, will allow ten of these practical dummies to exist in Ireland.—(Cheers and laughter.) I find in the measure, therefore, the seeds of much future good, and 1 frail it accordingly. There is also another advantage in it—it recognises the principle of establishing the property in the hands of Parliamen tary C ennaissioners. That is the principle, and, guard it as you will, it is admitted. For these reasons I rejoice. I utter here, and I wish it to be understood elsewhere, that I consoler the measure fraught with more benefits to Ireland than in the first instance may be supposed. But if prospective benefits may arise from the measure, let me ask, does it afford arty present relief to the distresses of Ireland?— (Cheers.) Will the wretched peasant have one potatoe more to eat, or will a day's more employment be given to the starving labourers of the present generation ? ( Hear.) Is there anything to mitigate existing suffering, or to conciliate towards a Government the affections of a populatioe driven to extremities by your own misconduct? I entreat the Noble Lord tit look at the present turbulent stir e or Ireland. I will not enter into the measure of Cm pirate Reform in Ireland, though I am quite ready to give Ministers trill credit for intended benefits. No man shall find me stinky in my praise of anything I believe will pro mote my country's good. When the Right Hon. Gentle man (Mr. Stanley) the other night spoke of his affection for Ireland, who cheered him more warmly than I did ? (Hear.) Expressions of kindness even are music to my ear—(Cheers) —and I do him the justice to say that he threw upon his colleagues in office a full participation in all the measures of harshness of which we have been com plaining. lie fully vindicated himself from any individual severity, and I will not, in future, forget the courtesy that I owe him as a gentleman, or the justice that is eue to him as a statesman.—(Cheers from all sides.) If, here after, in the warmth of debate, I chance to mix personality with argument, I will remember that the acts of the Right lion. Gentleman are the acts of the Government. I may he laughed at now, when I say that I hoped to see the day when the bead of the Government would answer fir his conduct to the insulted Commons of the United Empire : it is to be smiled at now, but I hoped that this attempt to annihilate every spark of political and private liberty will meet with exemplary retribu tion. My object in rising at this time is really rather to elicit sentiments from others than to in dulge in any expressions of my own. I have been reproached with an indisposition to concur with Minis ters in any coercive measures towards Ireland—in this House, and out of it, I have been charged with too great acrimeony and violence. Instead of receiving that charge in a hostile spirit, I accept it with pleasure as a testim my for myself, and as a favourable omen for my country. Let me observe to those who voted for the address to the King, that they are not pledged to any coercive measures, they have not yet s rid that three Sub-Lieutenants shall have the power not only to deprive men of their liberties, but to dismiss them to the felons' gang ; they are not yet pledged to drum-bead courtsmartial. Not only those who opposed the address, but every British gentleman, is free to vote as he pleeses upon these coercive measures; a spirit of loyalty, respectable even where it is mistaken, might concur in the address, although it would, perhaps, be as far as I am from consenting to this enactment. — (Cheers.) What I wish is, to give Ministers, this night; an opportunity of halting in their !lurch of violence. In deed, so far from its being understood that anything .like the measures now proposed were contemplated, the House cannot have forgotten that the speech of the Under- Secretary for the Treasury (Mr. S. Rice), not many nights ago, led us to expect the very reverse. He proved, if we are to believe vulgar arithmetic (the species of figures of which he is master), that Ireland is most pros. perous ; that her trade and manufactures are highly flourishing; but, " Oh, lame and impotent conclusion," he was forced to admit that the people were suffering, not withstanding, the most aggravated distress.—(Cheers.) The Hon. Gentleman taunted me with lauding the pro ceedings of Ministers at former periods, and he read a passage from a speech of mine delivered last year ; but he might as well say, that because I admired the manhood of forty, I was on that account to praise the dotage of eighty. I lauded the Reform Bill of last year; but am I, on that account, to laud the Coercion Bill of this year?—(Hear, hear.) Nay, more, the House will recollect that the Hon. Gentleman actually took upon himself, with an air of some haughtiness, to reproach me, and asked, " How can the Member for Dublin venture to charge on the present Ministry that they mean to abolish the trial by jury, and to suspend the Habeas Corpus Act ?"--(Cheers.) Corning from one who, though not a leader, is in the ranks of Government— mom one who at least sits with the Ministers, and perhaps sometimes communicates with them—l took in earnest his assertion, that they had no such intention ; and I ask, was it fair, was it just, to allow the House to be deceived upon such a suejeet ? Was there nobody to check him in his hold career of assertion —nobody to pull him back—nobody even to hint to him that he was injuring his friends, while he was committing himself ?—(EI ar, hear.) Yet, forsooth, he took upon himsslt to taunt me as a calumniator, while, as au It Mt man himself; he was denying that the measures appre hended were to be introduced. It is true, I did assail the tVhigs for th it conduct towards Ireland ; and 1 was ac cused of raking up the forgotten stories of former days. But, if I find the proceedings now contemplated, not only equal in enormity, but worse in guilt—more unrelenting and ferocious—more unfounded as to facts—more steeped in glaring falsehoods—while I respectfully apologise to those gentlemen who, though sincere lovers of liberty, still respect the Whig name—am I not entitled to ask, whether I do calumniate, and whether I am not justified in com paring the crimes of the present day with the misdeeds of a forint'. ? Let me tell English Members, that the most grievous inflictions upon Ireland have been owing to the Whigs—that the Whigs were guilty of the grossest violation of solemn engagemerits, auk) that the black spot of the treaty of Limerick yet remains an unwashed and inde lible stain.—(Cheers.) That treaty was made with a brave, a loyal, and a powerful army—so true to its plighted word, that, though a formidable French force entered the Shannon, and intervened between the formation of the treaty and its signature, the foreign aid was dismissed, the engagement was signed, and the barrier surrendered. How, let me ask, did the Whigs recompense this good faith ? When, in consequence of the victories of Marlborough—the Waterloos of that day—the Whigs were not merely strong, hut rampant in power, they violated that tre rty. But coming down to a later period, let me ask who, in 1807, framed and fabricated the detestable Insurrection Act, which the police of the successors of the Whigs in office carried into execntion ? A measure so fraught with iniquity, ths,t I do not believe the Englishman breathes who would accept the chance of preserving social order by I such an Act..—(Cheere.) Now whot do the Whigs again ? They threaten us not with nne Act, but with the accumulation and concentration of every oppressive statute ever inflicted upon Leland—the Curfew—the Insurrec tion Act—the suspensio❑ of the Habeas Corpus—unß 'tilted power of imprisonment, and consequent torture— the abolition of the trial by Jury—the absence of all legal responsibility—and the total suppression of the right of petition. When what is threatened is made law, what man shall dare even to petition Parliament ? Nay, if it suit the fantasy of that most excellent Protestant, the Secretary for Ireland, he may deem a prayer-meeting dangerous to the peace of Ireland, and accordingly suppress Hear.) Never yet was such a measure as that for changing the venue— Mr. WYNN rose to order, submitting to the Speaker, whether it was within the rules of debate that any Hon. Member should discuss measures not yet before the House, and which were in progress in another place. Mr. O'CONNELL—I have been given to understand that the King's Ministers have certain measures to propose ; and before agreeing to any supply, I am anxious to ascer tain the nature of those measures. The SPEAKER—That which the Right Hon. Gen tleman who spoke last hut one has stated upon the subject of order is perfectly correct, and completely in accordance with the, rules and practice of this House. The effect of that statement will, I trust, be to prevent the Hon. and Learned Gentleman being off his guard in any further oh. Nervation or inquiry he may address to the advisers of the Crown. Mr. O'CONNELL—The exceedingly courteous manner in which the opinion of the Chair is always announced in this House would, of itself, make me most anxious to avoid any topic that could in the slightest degree render it necessary fur you, Sir, to advert to any course which I might be pursuing in any other terms than those of con currence and approbation ; but I really think that I shall not have any difficulty in reconciling the observations and inquiries which I have made and those which I intend to make, with the ru!ea and practice of this House. I rise to put some questions to the Members of his Majesty's Government respecting a measure which I understand they have in contemplation, and which measure they will not be able to carry into effect if the present vote of supply be refused. The Finance Minister of the Crown comes forward to demand a vote of 3,000,0001., and thereupon I ri e to speak to his general and particular policy ; 1 am sorry ;hat one Member of that Government happens now to be absent—l mean the Member for the prosperous town of Leeds—for I might in that case have had an opportu nity of meeting with some effect the taunt which I suffered at his hands the other night, on the subject of a repeal of the Union. I understand that it is the intention of the Government to submit to this Muse a measure for chane ing the venue in Ire! ind. Now, when the Hon. and Learned Gentleman asked which was the mode best calcmated to peomote the ends of justice, and to secure to a man the ben, fits of a fair trial—which would he better fir him, to be tried by a jury of prejudiced persons, or by twelve honest enlightened Englishmen ;—when he asked that question, and in effect answered it for himself—l should have liked to inquire of him whether a native of the south would stand any chance of justice at all if tried by a jury of Orangemen in the Nuteli ? That in fact was his argument; but I do not adopt the calumnies against the Orangemen of the North. But 1 take the lion. and and Learned Gentle man at his word, and if he looks upon a prejudiced Orange ttibunal as most dangerous to justice, what does lie sly to changing the venue? I tell that Hun. and Learned Gen tleman, and I tell his Majesty's Government, that the rebellion in Massachusetts, or rather, 1 should say, the revolution there, hail its origin in a much slighter cause than that which now aggrieves the Irish people. I call it a revolution, and even had it not been successful, I should not have termed it a rebellion ; it is not every struggle th it deserves to liecalled a rebellion ; if the right of the sub. ferine parties be clear,if the oppression practised upon them be more than human nature can endure, who wilt call their just resistance a rebellion? What drew down the revolu• tionary war which separated America from England—what but the refusal to accord to the Americans any other than a trial by Englishmen? Something infinitely worse, however, is intended for the Irish than even the transmission of the Catholics of the South to be tried by the prejudiced Orangemen of the North. If such a course of policy be attempted, I hope most confidently that it will be instantly and signally defeated. I do hope and expect that it will be at once repudiated by the high-minded Reformers of tngland. I ask, will such a policy be sanctioned by this House, composed as it now is, of a great body of enlightened Reformers ? I ask you, the Reformers of England, will you say that tke trial by jury is to become a dead letter, and that the writ of Habeas Corpus is to cease ; that the single declaration of one man is sufficient for the imprisonment of the Irish people ; that we, the Irish, are to hold our liberties at the will and pleasure of the Lot d Lieutenant, anti that his single dictum is sufficient to put a whole district out of the pale of the htv ? The Hon. Member for Olaharn, with the straightforward good sense which marks every thing that falls from him, declines to call this measure a suspension of the Habeas Corpus ; he prefers using terms which have nothing of art in them; and he tells us plainly, that which every man must understand, and which correctly describes the literal fact, namely, that this is neither inure nor less than a power of indefinite impri,on ment—an absolute power of imprisonment; and even when you do bring the Irish to trial, by what sort of tribunal is their guilt or innocence to be ascertained ? Forsooth, by five military officers, who have been two years in the service, and have attained the age of 21. Mr. SHEIL—A majority of the five will be sufficient to find an Irishman guilty. Mr. STANLEY—We find one Hon. anti Learned Gentleman correcting another, in order that he might he most minute and correct as to the details of the measure submitted to the consideration of the other House ; it is therefore a farce and an absurdity to say that the Hon. and Learned Meinber for Dublin is avoiding the details of the measure now before the other House; but he goes on and perseveres in the discussion of those details, knowing, at the same time, that his Majesty's Government cannot join issue with him upon any one of these details. Mr. O'CONNELL—The Right Hon. Gentleman says that he and his colleagues cannot answer me, and by way of establishing that position, he treats me to an instal ment of a reply. I confess I am utterly unable to corn. prebend what there is to prevent the Right Hon. Gentle man from following me through the whole course of the observations which I have been making. I attribute to his Majesty's Ministers certain designs, and I tell them that I will vote against going into a Committee of Supply until I have expressed my opinions and feelings as to what those designs are said to be, and until I have ascertained precisely their scope and t e ndency.—(Cries of " H ear ," and " Order.") Oh ! give us s om e fair play. V/h it, will you not only oppress the unfortunate Irish themselves, - hut silence their chosen though talentleas advocate? Ain I thus to he put down, and replied to by instalments? The SPEAKER—I had hoped I succeeded in making myself understood. I took the liberty of saying that no thing ceuld he more inconsistent with order, or more in convenient in practice, than the discussion of measures pending before the other House of Parliament; and I said this, the rather, because, at the moment, the Hon. and Lea!ned Gentleman, the Member for Dublin, was, if not discussing, at least touching very closely upon subjects actually under the consideration of the House of Lords; since then he has gone much further, and entered into a discussion of the merits of an intended tribunal, and argu ing with respect to the numbers, ages, and other qualiti catiens of the Judges of whom that tribunal was to be composed. Mr. O'CONNELL—I am desirous of not transgressing order ; and I really teitik, if what I have said, and what I intend to say, be viewed in its true light, no Hon. Mem ber will say that it is out of order ; and I am sure it is be• cause I have not succeeded in making the form in which I pursue the object I aim at apparent, that I am thus sup posed to be out of order. I do attribute certain designs —not to the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland—because u th t o o r f o vi c e e w rt ; ain willbut I d' t fo r r ibut in to sak t e h ' e w N e pLuot hire out Lord him. If so, nothing can be easier for him than to intentions wipeout'a with respect to Ireland—it may be that I calumniate at any stain upon his character which such an im p utation may affix. I attribute to him the design of placing the lives and liberties of his Majesty's subjects at the disposal of a majority of five officers of the line, not one of whom may be more than 23 years of age. I attribute to him the design of placing the lives and liberties of his Majesty' s subjects in the hands of the Lord Lieutenant and three such officers. T here is no obligation upon the Noble Lord to sit silent ; be may in a moment fling from him the im putation, and CAI: it to the winds. I say, I understand that he intends to propose and support a measure in this House, which I hesitate not to describe as the most ap palling instance of cold, heartless despotism—of a tyran nous determination to crush the freedom o f a peop l e, ri a ll y u noffendiug, that the history of mankind can furnish. America revolted for less cause; fort denied it is to the trialbyjury , wa s allowed to the Americans, but Irish : they may be convicted and condemned by three En signs or Lieutenants, as the case may be. Need I suggest; to the House that the members of the military profe-sion,' above all others in the community, are open to the in fluence of apprehension and the h o p e o f rewar d ; by appre hension, of course, I do not mean mere physical cowardice, 1 -but an apprehension of the displeasure of their supe ciors, and the hope of promotion in their profession. lette r These Judges, as they ate called, are empliati e j the e ft, dependent. They may lose their oflices.--o°' karo at , I say they may. The right to dismiss a MiiitlOne:vialup: is a part of the prerogative of the Crowu. 0 9 04 1) , eeerled the refractory be dismiss e d, but the supple and c , ro d Peas ant ' may be rewarded with the Government of NO' t V and I know not what-(Hear, hear, theyheir)--ert'xe, 'Mik e a are the tribunals to which I understand it is ("lrea ay 14 of the Noble Lord to propose that the people (5 . p . fllftt u should he subjected, and a tribunal, possess the power to punish witnesses if they testimony. lam old enough to remember the n 0 0 ti n's tc events of 1798 ; I remember that in that year , 4 0 _00 I ' d ge ‘v do hici ' d e r t ee • h th ola l e ' r ! gl . na'e inan,nitilied Grady, was brought before a e o il the t ut -I remember, too, that at the time to which lon o° tl attention, the great Catholic counties were evc r i r r dtl shoul d them quiet, and Kerry was so perfectly undistur It tl the 1 , 01 there was not a soldier in the whole count d t w i ts I 'ver e i g eounty hut one s litary outrage took placer difiefif P r ciali et occasioned ,rotiou rhos-there thought uita good d e m w t e a re sur a e ill-advisedtfoewplai.ea qua c i ! t e v di g o , a ,,e ner a c y u ind ammunition in the barracks at Tralee, at' ser ved Cody of them wa s confided to three drunke n same persons came f rom th e coun ty rif e eft" interred this slend e r gu a rd, an d c arried olt bk o; 4 try. A same persons charged with this offence wee he neapssof hie before a courtm a rti a l, an d t r i e d.-( Hear.) i s "j ot dy bo , tt l i t an e y t t z Grady, when th e y were fi rs t t a k e n into e tr lie thought he knew one of them ;he was °Li d t° be p u over, but lie was compelled to attend the trial , fo r th e t ar lie ~ as then examined and called upon to iden tlY , e ilit r the etfer them, be expressed some doubts, and could n ot ate 01( decline that he was one of the party-the unfortfhe ttlet tvi ' r; was sent out, and endured one hundred lash' s e • t t i t p en then called in, and required to identify the pri' °° ; r o ; t '' , ll? - 1 he was unable to do, and a second time he " ll ' ; 1 1 '14 am and again received one hundred lashes. AP I° delS r vt b 1 44 called in, and once more interrogated-again be eris°l4; ad Gov, that conscientiously he could not identity th' i,u ' t :"stth ei and a third time was he sent out to be flogge d ,' s ti , 111 kei„: the three hundred lashes were inflicted, he fat nt to i bt Jet th : ended the prosecution.-(Hear, hear.) Are ‘ ce „ 0 0 ' k p ''l caurtsmartial again in Ireland ? Are all the o r F pr el t,„ "hte 4 acts of all their predecessors to be revived by the co Or' - ' t her Administration ? And are they to superinducevorti' eas e martial upon those? And in addition to ce ur e . o et ? ' are they to give the right of punishing sc it % v eltr (Hear, hear, hear.) Are they further to itnP A r- d li e t t ,'sh, t „, h . hat, by removing all legal responsibility ? ta rt this to C glishmen cation of ill lib. sties a b :btilsfu e siesliseserrseitt. tnsyuipi,riii,oriejuwiezetien,gcee,isanctioned requires, struggle uiati itltn,h.rr-dHaey anindlval, -if nineteenth tt o ia(ic d ei,iktade y i nc:snieeen o :r(nnet f lt no: enough jog: n o:04 1 ,v : ioatitv n i ,eorevltgee l vi ipht 4tvi t :itltee v :lpt e e, e rt:.ua y t 011 - : al, others, stood by our English Reformers du ri a n ,, g Ge r 'tttn4s peon, lover of ' sit f spirit that my man (cave liberties of further into these details ; why need I? if s;a er g le" 4 4 ... 1 t do I require ? Let the breasts of English Be lb r g ti e P4l spond to that interrogatory. What I say - it 1 1 r te lace with the calumni n :t iof to t tf bearing. I demand inquiry-let tne be confront' p el to, and inquiry at that bar-and let there be an end CO loot 'lke-I,' idoseu(pt,elfan:yiunepgoimll:ttrheyoe......o nr:testtults,e,ofify4::: in Ireland which gives the class of persons osten s 4 00 kI a t I played to put down disturbances a direct interest in pie uti tug and exciting thetn. Do not place the Irish i f a 6 i t a b de ln gilue etintritiou than die negro slaves of the West 10esfill; happily or themselves, do not feel the degreaatiend#, j t, 'lY ro ty t condition. Give rue an inquiry in the face of t he te et,, tr la l t 4 it I pledg e tnyst 11 to straw toe real causes of di•c'" t e r f • h the sources of disturbance. Not only are the RP t 4t be dein ived of the other rights to which I have ca" ,l ;0 r k r e it% tn tiou, but they are to lose the right of petition -4° ilt r, upon them the most grievous penalties, and Y au ,, t i e d t i Ne gt ' they shall not even complain. It was a SO' I, 4 ;' t t t o right to petition that drove the House o ; g lit l , s ; 4 4 j' 4l lion' the throne of these realms other cause , ' t rn "' omit Wee contributed, but Englishmen would not e ndure a . fi r iti l e t i .r sta, of the right to petition. The last of the Stuar t ' 1 :0 Ii c : 11 , I 2 th e religious freedom of the country. I ag ree : :, t o tat in 'eiigious doctrines and discipline ; but I r e r -t' tlfi', to e '' e ttd and despise him as a politician ; and I maintain e felt th,: 4 tia e intolerance proves him never to have understood o. ro fel, 11 .4 6 it icfluence of that hely religion of which he W 3 ' 3 P ort" 'Le He infringed the right of petition, and r‘# ) tat i i°, 4 l• ' ! ground for the revolution ; and that revolut"'Te l a ' 41 4, i totes the title deed of the present Monarch of 1 , e „,0 14 :, 4st I his throne, and a better title to it a Itlonarc"de in k ,. , t ttin t have, though there has since been added to tha t " 14 4 e h' sot ivsebetierittgianodpone: r g as eseaieorni necessary eo r l i rpai h ts: e .hyt r t e nt d fieo i in t ,r a aar us seer question-Is n t ni- c t e o ,vv u leas l r d . nit b oto e t : ef t t : flibe ; eivi : 001 r? , 8 0;, , b ,lO l l htt io:itltWhat I n ay a Have we not gr ater and more intolerable gi pos (It ", is to complain of? In peverty and misery, Dah l eg o! 1,55 tr, tea voice of Irish compl a int to be heard ? yie ri 111 ;l ' ,2 the wretched, you shall not tell your tale „f e l " it ' nougat Par fioin him his last resource, and you impose yr beeP aet 4 lta r k humanity its last horrible aggravation. I ba f' ,, of kei, t , th e that predial insurrection has been the contsequeri.e a a , t cal agitation. I say that directly the reverti e i ; I See, iigain I would repeat the challenge for inquiry' 1d : h et {sat affirm, that every species of calumny 1 C" 3 ',, 10'1, t he I y further, that predial agitation has not he e ' lla r:i t tle t ,‘tid• exist in any quarter where it has not aris en li tifis i r e is oppression. Take up any case of predial a k el you think proper, and you will find it commenjerd 0 4 4 '1)1 1 , 4 th e usual crimes-the same quantity of no r , refo r :, N t titly mitted ; but the question for an enligtened anT , , 0. 0 \ th Nto l , Parliament to determine is, how far I‘ l ' n [ t hti l 4 , t ,rd instrumental in keeping it on foot? I la te ' ) ( l ‘ rft, tat' a eY newspaper one of the greatest falsehoods-i - ' ao ,,, , jaho tt.ti; hCre hold word-that ever appeared in a public r diatl r d kkai 411 d I stated that the county of Cork is at this rnoinen: i f eq' Nth ` 'vitt, 'There never endtehy;aetr neithertwh e as any K iisng thing i ac n yo g ou, more ntsy gco untrue. aroer, aoo7a l p t a.::ira i iO U o f North disturbed. In Louth a predial insu rr 'i 0/, ti "l: t i 4 tv( p i, recently stripped, but not by the interferen ce ;, p ar t, tfri e , went. lam sorry the Member for Worceste r ',;1,1 Vr e t , t 'tit e t in his place, for I am sure, if he were, I eh 1 - r els tv ; "tt a ; i '"th him to feel that he had not done justice fe • diet n• voting impliedly for the coercion of Ireland, Ll,' ~00 10 ' ,i a " t o the address; and I the more regret it, wben%or, o ld that there is no 111 , mher in this House who ? ;oil''' . t eas w and Ministers is more independent, or whose 1? dad ( ~nt E o and diem partakes less of a factious character. ' l ', I ;, nl become me to speak in public of anything tl i r e- t . „( ' ll .lt atild may have done l ; but if I had the Alember t ° 4 0' 0 , f . 4 1 14 ,.) ter in private, I think I should succeed in, CIO°, of o nttl, him, that I have succeeded more r ffecto ll Y r et i° 's fiel hey other individual in preventing predial (Hear.) So anxiously and earnestly did I enga'l4e/ in s lary Y ' tl work in the year 1822, that an address of 01i , °e s off e „i at to the humane and gallant officer who corn,, e sc't t i 4 : 4 te -t i tt forces stationed at Cork, where the tlisturtfa%ooo tt,411Y..,4 prevailed-I allude to Sir John Lambert--t Ot orl o e p en ci l t ' poi own pocket he defrayed the expense of printing t herly kv l vitt, hating 36,000 copies of that address. I claie n ' • ' I lfe t ctl e "o l‘ ts " most successful in preventing predial 0 Olif,_ 4 l•lt will prove that assertion, if you will grant 1 03 ",: f ice't t at the bar of this House. As to any til' t " r r ' cc itj t „ T N, lib i may exist at present, I maintain that theY a t . r e ge c t 1 4 " i t tip;', 4 elti chiefly Cu, the county of Kilkenny. If any n u n t o 4 and oat been committed in Wexford, I have every ro' ° "10 t . 1 ,1 11 1 1 2 10%, that they have been committed by strangers' 0 0' 1 :,1 t e tr a e VAii I t ivgfiee:nop.pignuonieouso,glaeviinl.:slaill;:o:optdttbtvefirg:ioete;tttilvirhhinuvveilesrtdoeidneAttautilunesihffiseoynasenoeitrrtommrehinesa‘eo(btiuwl Assembly existencefoi hoii is ps a roio r ot: l pt a eehr r s o e:i u :nri s :Efnaa t c t n. : am u i,,3 r e.t d imi3ee e trai r :v a boc a ein, s rlcir - (l3e d eeili i g i gt i l, ,I t tlvcs , L tt i t h lN: y xyluilr e e?a t 4a i ii s u et l e d tp o b tw e o edrfi Ireland,suc l ov a e r r g e u i a l discovered, nr b a i e c t ei r k pacity to legislate for that country. Once ).° o rt',c to repeat my protest against this system e t () ° o ld gala Cvj I tell the H ouse t h at spec i a l comm i ss ions sf plish all th at cou ld b e requ i re d -a ll t hat anl'd et d t Ct°ts tar demand. Sp ecia l comm i ss i ons never h a ve to t :re ,t,q the second always succeeded. T`;°mit,Oi%t tt Clare, the insurgents were complete m aster y 031 dt a 4, pan ae al, try, hut two special commissions put an en a pe r 'vi o, _ , ki tt matter. If Government would only i' s° „l - ‘ l l.l 'l t ai Z h icit` l %.. coininission of that kind, all difficulty ‘" ) , - ; t aret, d . re tit t In Cork, t wo comm i ssions succeeded ; 00)1 ' i trta, t ',t were attended with the same resialts; and Is° ' ) ;:t. an Clare and Galway. 1 will prove, too, a t tl, V v 4 t will 'flitted, that there would not he the slight est ber c, d o , 11 Pe , s • 1 0 1 t he ' 4 obtaining honest and independent Jur ° 'ooveell ill Urea one instance of a Juror having been at all in bt g l :ha i t ty t even in consequence of any verdict he rnig b eP te ,of `tier s and that, Gentlemen, was the agent of 'll, a . o n v N„ lord, and, therefore, not likely te• be popn'3'leirge'll rite counts, for everything harsh the absentee b i t o e .t ". 1 r un,: Wa agent, and everything gracious lie assumes l atioo j t yri s i !t, as to witnesses, the greatest misrepresent ne ia/v of til g a hy abroad with respect to them. I ka°"' ° do °eel' tat 44, the county of Clare where a witnes s attelie i2ouot markets and every public place, tboug h . vve nrej, 4 7 1 ,g e 61 th i crony against the persons concerned in c . t . 'fe e tons. When a county happens to be t rai tor jaer je ? lir so et a does the Government usually do ? T h a c n Yj l ir° f' tb, '1ti e , 4 144 4 3 police force; that may be a very wise bi _ta caution ; but it would be much more .I , :i tire ett crease the military farce, for, by incieatv"le N al" " I r give an influential class a direct interest in turbance. The Hon. and Learned Gentle°