The Sun. — London, England, 1830-03-20 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS-(LAST NIGHT). The Royal Assent was given to-day by Commission to the Exchequer Bills Bill, the Transfer in Aids Bill, the Guernsey and Jersey Poor Bill, the Salford Lighting and Watching Bill, together with eight other private bills. The Comenissione:s were the LORD CutexcEi.i.on, and Earls SliArTEsnumr and ROSSLYN. Several Bills- were brought up from the Commons. Several Noble Lords presented petitions against the pay_ meet of wages iu goods, for free trade to India, and a repeal of the duty on Hope. Mr. Hickey, from the Court of Exchequer in Ireland, presented papers in the appeal case of the Commissioners of Chari , able Donations and others. Lord GODERICH had some petitions to present on a slilsiect on which he himself gave no opinion at present, litonely, the payment of wages by truck, or in goods in stead of money. The first was from eighteen Magistrates of the county of Worcester, who held that this was a bad custom, awl prayed that it might he abolished ; the second wa,s from the silk throwsters of Congleton; and the third from the shopkeepers, &c. of a place in the county of Glamorgan ; both to the same effect as the first. He had petitions from Sedgley, in Staffordshire, and other places, complaining of distress, and praying relief; and one from Beverley, in Yorkshire, praying for the opening of the China-trade. His Lordship also presented a peti tion from the tanners of Dublin and Belfast, praying for a repeal of the leather -tax, in which, as his Lordship ob nerved, they . were likely to be indulged. His Lordship th en stateJ that he had three other petitions to present from different parts of Sussex, praying for the repeal of the dV'T !n hops. He regretted that the petitioners were not 1t! ply to succeed for : the present; but at the same time, , considering the mode in which his Majesty's Ministers ap plied the principles in which he concurred with them, there was every reason to believe that this tax also might soon be repealed. .Lord TEYNHAM presented a petition from a Society for the Encouragement of Industry, against the Poor-rates. Earl DARNLEY presented a petition from certain per sons engage) in the leather trade in and about Dublin, praying for relief, and the crension of Poor Laws to Ireland. The Earl CAERNARVON presented a petition from the tea-dealers and grocers of Bath and Wells, complaining that their trade was materially injured by itinerant hawkers of tee, alvi praying that this might be prevented. Earl STANHOPE gave notice that he should present the Xent petition on Thursday next, and on the same day he, should move for certain papers relating to India. The Mutiny Bills were read a third time and passed. Earl BATHURST presented a petition from Wootton under-Edge, against the payment of wages in goods. Earl FITZWILLIAM presented a petition from a place in the West Riding of Yorkshire, against the monopoly in the China trade. The Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition, signed tOO persons, from Boston, in Lincolnshire, complaining of distress, and praying the reduction of taxation. He also presented a petition from George Gunning, of Finsbury, of the half-pay of the Foot Guards, objecting that the Clergy man of his;pariah appointed one of the Churchwardens, and praying for an alteration in the law relative to the Church wardens. His Lordship gave no opinion of his own on the subject. CORN LAWS. Lord KING gave notice that on Monday week he would move curtain resolutions on the subject of the Corn Trade, as connected with the prosperity of the country. SUTTEES. Lord CALTHORPE presented a petition from a Pro testant Society Meeting in Eagle-street, Red Lion-Nip/re, and one from tt Female Society of the same description, praying for the abolition of Suttees in the East Indies.— The petitions were laid on the table. REGULATIONS OF THE COURT OF CHANCERY. The LORD CHANCELLOR, pursuant to nonce, celled the attention of their Lordships to three Bills which lay en the table for a second reading, relative to certain rides and proceedings in the Court of Chancery. The Bills were prepared and brought into the other House by the Solicitor-General, who, fur the industry, ability, end temper which Ito had displayed in the task, was en titled to the gratitude of the country. The first of these Bills related to what were celled Contempts of the Court of C! - iancery. Their Lordships were probably aware that, the only way in which the Court of Chancery could corri pel obedience to its orders Was by imprisoning the refrac tory party. Thus, when a Bill was filed against a party svgs refused to appear, the only way in which the Court could compel him to appear was by imprisonment for his dieohedieuce or contempt of Court. From prison he was brought to the bar of the Court ; and, if he still continued obstinate, the Court entered an appearance for him. There wee a clause in the Bill, that in such cases the Court might enter an appearance for him at once, instead of having recourse to this circuitous process, which was at fouled with unnecessary expence. Then, as to the an swer—when a party refused to answer, the only way which they hail to compel him was to imprison him for contempt rbisobedience to its order. Bat as to persons having privilege of Parliament, the Court, if they refused to answer, hell the Bill against them pro confesso. But tilos* who hail not this protection were committed, and be hail heard of persons being confined for a very tons; time—for fifteen, twenty, twenty-five, and even thirty years. It was the duty of no person to attend to them, and they often remained confined front mere igno rance. There Waa a clause in the Bill, providing that officers should attend, from time to time, to the cases of such persons, and make proper reports, in order that the Conn might at short intervals know what really was their e is oa sa ne The Solicitor-General, in the course of in tptiriee, found one confined for contempt who was in a Mate of fatuity, and incapable of understanding for what perjure or front what cause he was confined. This Bill provided against the continuance of these evils. The Court frequently had to make an order on a person to do a certain act—such as to sign a deed, to levy a fine, and other things. If he refused, the Court could compel him only by imprisonment; and if he continued obstinate, he remained in prison and the act was not done. This Bill proposed that in suck cases, according to the known doctrine of equity, that should be considered as done which ought to be done. This was one of the modes for shortening processes recommended by the Chancery Commission. At present, when a party con tinued obstinate, he was brought from prison before the Court by habeas corpus, and admonished by the Court to do his duty. if he remained obstinate, he was sent back again to prison ; he was then again brought before the Court by an alias habeas, and again admonished ; and if he continued obstinate, he was sent back again to prison. He was then brought before the Court by what was called a plaries habeas, and again admonished ; and if he was still obstinate, he was sent back again. He was then brought spin before the Court by en alias pluries habeas; and, on his still remaining obstinate, if it was a refusal to answer, the Bill was taken pro confesso. The present Bill pro vided, that he should at once, as in the case of those having privilege of Parliament, be held pro confesso. The Court had made various rules on the recommendation of the Chancery Commission; hut, for the purposes whiehle had mentioned, it was found necessary to have recourse to the Legislature: There was another Bill, the object of which was to consolidate the laws relative to the care of the property of femmes couvertes, of infants, of idiots, and lunatics. There avers many Acts on that sub ject which required to he consolidated, with addi tions recommended to the Solicitor by his (the Lord Chan cellor's) predecessor. Copyholds might be surrendered to firmest, couvcrles, but not to infants and idiots ; and it was new proposed to enable infants to take surrenders of eopyholds and leases, and to make other leases for the be neficial Administration of the property, and for the im provernent'Of the estate ; but there was a provision that no flee should . be taken, and that the lease should be at the fall rent. There was also a provision to enable the Court to complete conveyances of real property of a luna tic, who hail contracted to convey before his lunacy. The Court at present had tile power to order the purchaser to pay the money into Omit, but it had no power to make the holistic convey. There was a clause also to compel the ; committee of a lunatic to make a transfer of stock belong ins; to the lunatic. It might happen that a Committee might be removed fur misconduct or sonic ether reason ; but time Court could not compel him to transfer the stock, atul it was intended that in these respects the laws of England and Ireland ehould he assimilated. There was a third Act, the purpose of which was to amend the law with respect to estates vested in trustees. A vender sells an estate, and dies before conveyance ; the heir in that case, if of age, was bound to convey. BLit when the heir was an infant the Court...had ea power to order a con veyance till the heir became ofJr - 0, although the Court should be of opinionflinathevonveyanc e ought to be com pleted. It was proposed in this Bill to remedy this in convenience, and that amendment also was recommended by hitaptedecessor. On the death of a trustee —or, if it was necessary that there should be two, and one died-- then, on the mere change of a trustee, it was necessary to tie a Bill .in Chancery. This had rather an alarming sound, for their Lordships knew what a Bill in Chancery was. There were many cages of an analogous kind, in which the matter was done by petition to the Court of Chancery; and it was proposed that for the future ad, should be so done. Then, as to the trustees of charities, 1 the heir of the surviving trustee might represent the whole estate ; and yet it was often extremely difficult to find him, and a cumbrous and complicated process was at present em ployed for that purpose. It was in this Bill provided that when the heir could not he discovered by advertisement, or some such easy and short process, it should he in the power of the Court to appoint another trustee. The contents of these two last Bills were at first put into one; but on con sideration it app.ared best to the Solicitor-General to di vide it ; as was now done. These Bills he thought would be beneficial, and ought to pass after perhaps two or three alterations, which might be made in the Committee. In the meantime he moved that they he read a second time. The Earl of AIALMESBURY was of opinion that the regulations were of great importance, and would be bene ficial, and he thanked the Noble and Learned Lord for the condensed and luminous view which he had given of them. But he wished to ask the Noble and Learned Lord a question as to the power of trustees holding estates during the infancy of the heir or person beneficially, or to he beneficially, entitled when he came of age. The trustees, he understood, were to have the power to lease the estates for 21 years. which might be required for the beneficial management. Non•, what he wished to know was, whe ther the trustees were, or the Court was, to have the power to lease the mansion-house for 21 years? If they were, the heir might be unable to get possession of his own family mansion-house till he was forty years of age. The LORD CHANCELLOR replied, that the clause in question was large enough to include the letting of the family mansion house. But still the matter would be in the discretion of the Court, which would take care that the heir should have the power to take possession of the Lamily mansion when he became of age. The object of the clause was the improvement of the estate ; and though it was large enough to carry the power to the extent to which the Noble Earl alluded, the Court would always take care that the heir should not be kept out of his family mansion after he came of age. The Earl of iIIALMESBURY then gave notice that in the Committee he would move that the mansion house should be excepted fron► the power. The Bills were then read a second time, and ordered to be committed (time not mentioned). Adjourned till Monday. HOUSE OF COMMONS-(LAST NIGHT.) The Speaker was summoned to the Peers, to hear the Royal Assent given by Commission to various Bills, the titles of which he read on his return, and which will be found in our report of the proceedings of the other House. LORD ELLENBOROUGH'S DIVORCE BILL. Sir G. CLERK moved the first reading of Lord Ellen borough's Divorce Bill; and it was read a first time ac cordingly, and ordered to be read a second time. LAMBETH BRIDGE. Mr. Alderman THOMPSON presented a petition from the Watermen's Company against the New Bridge over the Thames at the Horseferry Road. THE BEER TRADE. Mr. CARTER presented a petition from the Licensed Victuallers of Portsmouth and Portsea, against opening the trade in beer. The Marquis of CHANDOS presented a petition from certain freeholders and farmers of the Hundred of Burn ham, Bucks, for the repeal of the duty on malt; also another petition, from the same parties, complaining of severe distress, and praying inquiry and relief. The Noble Marquis expressed his regret that Government had not thought it right to relinquish the duty on malt as well as that on beer. Mr. lIEATIICOTE thought that if both could not be repealed, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been right in preferring to repeal the duty on beer. He was most decidedly opposed to the monopoly of the brewers, who had kept up the price of beer much beyond what it ought to have been, although the duty on malt had been reduced from 4s. 6d. is 2s. 6d., and although the price of a bushel of malt had been lowered nearly one-half. Mr. C. CALVERT agreed that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had acted rightly in repealing the duty on beer, but contended that the effect of opening the trade would he to ruin some thousands of honest and industrious vic tuallera. Lord EASTNOR presented a petitian against opening he trade in beer from the Licensed Victuallers of Here ord.—To lie on the table. Mr. DUNCOMBE presented a petition from Holder ness, complaining of agricultural distress.—To lie on the table. Mr. SYKES presented a petition from Kingston -upon- Hull, signed by upwards of 3,000 persons, comprising all the wealth and intelligence of that town, against the East India Monopfr. The name Hon. MEmmut presented a similar petition from the Members of the Trinity House nt Kingston upon-null. Lord ALTHORP presented a petition from the parish of Wellingborough,. in Northamptonshire, against capital punishments. He concurred with the petitioners in thinking that severe punishments were ineffectual, when they went against the feelings of society ; in such a state of .things severe punishments encouraged crime.—The petition was ordered to be printed. Lord F. L. GOWER moved for Copies of certain Correspondence between the Irish Government and the Officers of Charitable Institutions in Dublin, which Cor respondence had been opened at the instance of the Select Committee, appointed in 1829 to consider the Irish Esti mates.—Agreed to. Immediately thereupon his Lordship presented those papers. The second reading of the Deserted Children (Ireland) Billwaspostpon e d to the 26th inst. Mr. IifIAISISBY COOnitpresented a petition from Wooton-under-Edge against the truck system. The same 'lox. MEMBER. presented a petition from certain inhabitants of Gloucestershire, complaining of the increase of horse-stealing, and praying the Nouse to adopt some measure caculated to diminish the prevalence of that en we. Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from the Rev. Thomas Smith, of the Established, Church, praying for increased facilities for the erection of places of divine wor ship, in connection with the Church of England.—To lie on the table. Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from certain (-lectors of the county of Waterford, complaining of the re turn of Lord George Beresford.—To be taken into consi deration on the 27th of April. Mr. O'CONNELL moved for a return of the amount of fees received by the Lord Chancellor's Secretary in coin missions of bankrupts, distinguishing town and country dockets ; and a variety of other returns connected with the Court of Chancery and the Court of Exchequer, which were read from the Chair with so much rapidity, and in so low a tone, that their purport could not be collected. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was un derstood to make some objection to those returns. Mr. O'CONNELL said they were merely continuations of what had been agreed to in former Sessions. Messengers from the Lords signified their Lordships concurrence in the Pensions' Duties' Bill and other Bills. Lord EUSTON presented a petition from Bury St. Ed munds, praying for a revision of the criminal law.—To be printed. Mr. BULLER presented a petition from the clothing district of Ryedale, in Yorkshire, respecting the renewal of the East India Company's Charter. Mr. W. WHITMORE also presented a petition from a district in Yorkshire, against the East India monopoly.— Both referred to the Committee upon the Charter. The Marquis of CHANDOS presented a petition from certain West India Planters and Proprietors, complaining of distress, and prayiug for encouragement to West India produce. He complained much of the duty on coffee. Mr. KEITH DOUGLAS soon intended to bring for ward the general situation of the West India Colonies, especially us regarded their commercial relations and the distresses under which they at present laboured. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER hoped that the difficulties under which the West India interest laboured would speedily be at an end. It would, no doubt, be extremely satisfactory to the Government to af ford the petitioners any relief which they possibly could, by the removal cf any taxes which could safely be repealed. In bringing before the House his financial statement, he carefully considered these imposts which could with most advantage be repealed ; add in looking at the choice he had made, he thought it best calculated on the 'whole to effect the le g itimate objects of reduction. Th oug h no t di rect l y , Yet indirectly, the Nest India interest would derive benefit from the reductions which had been made. Mr. R. GORDON thought a redtictien of 7s. or Be. on the • chief produce of the West Indies might be made without any loss to the revenue. The petition was ordered to be printed. Mr. SPRING RICE moved for a return of the quan tity of Rectified Spirits in the possession. of Distillers in London on the 15th March, and similar returns with re- . secito Scotland and Ireland.—Agreed to. Sir M. W. RIDLEY presented a petition from an in dividual, whose name was not audibly 'announced, stating that he hid invented inaChinery for 'transferring coals from ships into barges, by which a saving of Ss. a chal dron might be effected, and praying (as we understood) that he might be enabled to bring hi:; invention into ge neral use. Sir A. CAMPBELL presented a petition from the Weavers of Glasgow against the Esst India Monopoly.— Referred to the Committee on the Charter. On the motion of Mr. HERRIES, it was agreed that the House at its rising do ajourn to Monday. Lord W. POWLETT presented a petition from some place in the North Riding of Yorkshire, complaining of the low price of lead. The Noble Lord wished to know whether it was the intention of Government to do any thing to relieve this evil ? Mr. lIERRIES said that, in his opinion, the putting a duty upon lead imported would only be a meansof further aggravating the distress. SUPPLY. The House, on the motion of Sir G. CLERK, resolved itself into a Committee of Supply. A vote of 603,200/. for the victualling of 22,000 men was agreed to. The House resumed, the Report was brought up, and the Chairman obtained leave to sit again on Mouthy next. DISTRESS OF THE COUNTRY.—ADJOURNED DEBATE. The Order of the Day for renewing the Debate on this question was then read. Colonel SIBTHORPE—'When the important measure introduced last Session to the House was brought forward, the Right Hon. Gent. who proposed it, defended it on the ground of expediency ; he wished that the Government would attend to the same feeling in this instance, because be was convinced that it would lead them to meet the uni versal wish of the people. It was retorted upon those Members who most pressed this point, that it was their unwillingness to lower their rents. Now, for his own part, he bad no unwillingness on that head, because he was convinced of the necessity that there was for such a pro ceeding. One of the most striking instances of the present state of things was to be found in the wool trade; and of what was taking place in that trade, Lincolnshire was no small criterion. The price of that article was now re duced to about 55., and 250,0001. were annually lust to the country by the falling off. Cattle prices had also fol lowed in the same train, and the farmer now was unable to procure for his fat beasts what he had formerly given for his lean ones. These positions had been contested, because a Mr. Bull had taken upon him to state the con trary, and, in consequence, Mr. Bull, and Mr. Jacob, and Mr. Gib]ett, went to Lincoln. They, however, got such a confounded rowing there, that he believed they would never shew their faces there again. It was said that if they were to grant this inquiry it would be the means of deluding the people. He could not, however, agree in that observation ; it was not in mortals to command success, but they might at least endeavour to deserve it, arid though relief might be beyond their power, at all events they were bound to do their best for that object. It was true that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had done something by the taxes he had remitted, and he thanked him for it, though he feared that they would afford but little benefit to those who needed relief the most, as the farmers were unable to pay their labourers any wages.— It was evident that the country required relief ; and if it was not afforded by, that. House, the sooner, es an Hon. Member had said, they were all thrown into the Thames the better; and he believed it.—(A laugh.)—The Duke of Wellington had endeavoured to make out that timber was now at as high a price as it ever bad been. He could state the contrary from his own knowledge; and if there were to be imports to the extent of 550,000 loads, as bad been mentioned, they would very soon be unable to get any price at all for it. The Right Hon. Gent. (Mr. Hus kisson) had taken occasion to Fay that some of those who thought as he (Colonel Sibthorpe) did, were currency mad, but he believed he might retort the charge by alleg ing that the Right Hon. Gent. was free-trade-mad.— (Hear, hear.)—Another flourish that had been made was about the gold and silver plate ordered for use.; but he thought that that had very little to do with the real pros perity of the country, and only reflected shame on those who might have employed their money so much better, when there were so many unfortunate persons who had not even an earthenware plate to use, and if they had, bad nothing to put on it--(A laugh, and hear, hear.)—The only satisfactory point connected with the subject was, that there was to be a further reduction of taxation, though he did not think that that had been carried to a sufficient extent. The petitions of the people were decisive on the question of distress. Colonel DAVIES—There appeared to him to have been quite a sufficient case mode out for the appointment of a Committee; but after having heard what had fallen from the Hon. Member for Shaftesbury and the Hon. Member for Newark with respect to the question of cur rency, he said that it would be impossible to vote for the motion without broaching that subject, unless it was an understood thing that the currency question should not be entered upon in the Committee. Ile was convinced that the people would not he satisfied if they found that inquiry was refused because they were at variance upon one point ; and yet many Members would be compelled by the obsti mu (if he might use the term) of those who brought for ward the motion on the question of currency to vote un willingly against it. With reference to the distress, he knew that there was great distress among all the manu facturers. In particular he was surprised to hear the Right Hon. Gentleman say the other evening that there was no distress in the iron trade, when, if there was one trade of the kingdom more distressed than another, it w as the iron trade. He knew that several furnaces had been blown— Mr. BERRIES explained, as we understood, that his information had been derived from an iron master. Colonel DAVIES, in continuation, thought that the anonymous authority of one iren-master ought to have no weight with such a well-known fact as the distress of the iron manufacturers. The Hon. Member then proceeded to read an extract from a newspaper, to show that a con siderable body of weavers had emigrated from Paisley, and had carried with them our manufactures to New York. He believed with the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Liverpool, in whose speech he generally concurred, that our exports and our business had increased ; but the in crease had been at the expense of the weavers, who, while the increase had been going on, had hardy been able to subsist. The low prices which were ruinous to them were beneficial to the annuitants, the pensioners, the holders of the national debt, and all salaried persons. They profited by low prices. Lawyers and physicians also did not re duce their fees, and among them there was no distress, and they did not complain—but all the productive class e s including the labourers, were suffering and complaining. One Right Hon. Gentleman had quoted the quastity of timber imported as a proof of our increasing trade; but what dill that show? Why, that foreign timber was used instead of British timber. He knew that in his own neigh bourhood no timber could now be sold. He admitted with his Gallant Friend who spoke last evening, that the price of commodities in the foreign market regulated the price here ; and admitting that, he said it was the business of Government to make the producers here as much as possible on a level with those on the Continent, by a reduction of taxation. At present the foreigners who used to be the consumers of our commodities were be come our rivals in the markets of other countries, and met us on equal terms in the markets of South America and the East. He was glad to acknowledge that something bad been done towards reducing taxation, but he did not think removing the beer duty would he a great benefit to the lower classes. They were generally in so low a con dition that they had no money to spare for buying beer, and must be satisfied if they could obtain food, clothing, and a lodging. He should wish to see a still further re duction of taxation. The House ought to begin by giving the people cheap bread, and it ought to reduce the as sessed taxes, and to take off the malt duties. To meet these reductions he would reduce our expenditure; and with an honest House of Commons—and this was neces sary—a reduction of our expenditure in the Army, the Navy, and the Colonies, to the amount of four millions, might be made. To cover any deficiency lie would have recourse to a property tax of two per cent., which, if ex tended to Ireland—and he did not know why it should not be—would be amply sufficient. But he did not think that reducing the ditties on sugar, on tobacco, and other articles, would occasion a diminution of the revenue.— We had, on former occasions, tried the effect of lowering the duties, and we found the result was to increase the revenue. He would implore the Hon. Member, if he were present, to withdraw his motion. lie had only made these few remarks, because he had been anxious to explain why he could vote neither for the motion of the Hon. Member nor the amendment of the Hon. Baronet. Mr. HUDSON GURNEY fully concurred in the view taken by the Member for Essex of the causes of the dis tress. He fully concurred in most of the statements sub mitted to the House last night by the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Liverpool, who bail unanswerably proved .that the measures of Government relative to trade had been substantially right, and that the Government could not act otherwise; That Right Hon. Gentleman had clearly shewn that one great cause for our distress was the alteration in the money system. With that alteration a great reduction ought to have taken place in taxation ; but the Government had not been allowed to take off the taxes which most pressed on the industry of the country, and were compelled by the gentlemen of that House - to - take off the property-tax. They bad compelled the Government to relieve the higher classes. The Right Hoe. Gentleman • had on a late occasion blamed the country bankers as having caused the distress, because they had net made sufficient advances; but they were justified in withdraw • ing assistance when they saw that from the deteriora tion of property it would not pay them their ad : vances. At the same time the Right Honourable Gentleman thought the Bank of England had only acted prudently in withholding assistance; so that he blamed the weaker body for not doing that which he praised the • stronger for not doing. The alteration in the currency was a greater spoliation—if spoliation that could be called which enriched no one—than had ever been witnessed in any country ; and it was caused by resuming a standard which had not been in use in the country for '23 years. He did not mean to blame the Bank of England for the Suspension Act of 1797. It was not caused by the Bank being unable to pay its creditors, but by the Government king unable to pay the hank. In speaking of the Bill of 1819, he was sorry that the Right Hon. Member fur Liverpool was not in his place, or he should have atternpteri to prove to that Right Hon. Gentleman that every altera tion in the currency was injurious to the poor. Ile wished to caution the House against indulging a wish for a return to a paper currency. There was no species of currency so had, so destructive of prosperity, so liable to fluctuations, and to CEIUSC mischief, as a paper circulation payable on demand. lf, when it were issued, gold was not demanded, the issuers were encouraged to issue in excess; and then when a panic came the first check ruined them—they were unable to meet the demand; and then the whole was destroyed.—(Hear, hear.)—The lion. Member expressed himself, we understood, on the whole, to be unfavourable to the motion. Mr. L. FOSTER said it appeared to him that nearly all the Members who took any part in the debate on this question, were of opinion that the distress was to be as cribed to the diminution of the currency.—(Cries of " No, no.")--He repeated that many gentlemen had expressed an opinion to that effect, and he was satisfied that it was founded on very erroneous conclusions. He would ask them to look at the state of trade, and at the condition of the various branches of our manufactures. In the iron trade they would hear that so much iron hail never been required before. In the silk trade they would hear that the importation of the raw material was greater than it had ever been, and in various other manufactures they would perceive steady demand and constant employment. But then, with all this demand, and with the employment of a vast deal of capital, there was still a great quantity of , capital in the country which could not be advantageously invested, and which yielded but a very small return. Stip a pose thee. that this capital thus unemployed was still fur ther increased, what would be the consequences? Wl•y, that a host of mere adventurers would be let into the or dinar) , paths of commerce, the profits on capital still fur ther diminished, and that capital itself must unnecessarily be increased. The trade of the country did not require currency so much as customers. He thought that great ex aggeration had gone forth on the subject of distress in this country, as well as in Ireland. He had made very minute in- quiries on the subject, and he found that in Dublin and Lon- don there were great numbers suffering privation; but instead of selecting these places as affording proofs of the general dis tress, they ought rather to be .mentioned as the places . in which that distress was most to be found. He had consulted a great many persons connected with Ireland ; and from all the information he could collect, he was satin fled that capital was never so abundant—trade never so flourishing, and rents never better paid in Ireland than at the present moment. It had been said that the population of Dublin was much distressed. There were, he believed, about two thousand mendicants in that city at present-- and even in the most prosperous times the number was not touch less ; but there were also seven thousand opera tives unemployed, and suffering under great destitution. This, however, was a state of things to which that city had been subject at all times. There were at all times instances of depression and prosperity in the population of Dublin even in the most flourishing times, and there fore this could not be taken as ant indication of universal distress. Before the restrictions were removed from trade in Ireland the industry of the people was cramped front want of demand, and since they had been removed it was cramped in the same manner by the rivalry of the manufacturers of England. In Bandon there was also a good deal of distress, but it was mainly to be attri buted to the failure of an attempt to establish the cotton manufactures—an attempt made on a small scale, and not persevered in with any extensive capital. In Belfast, however, that trade had taken a deeper root, and he was happy to say that it presented instances of large establishments flourishing with as much vigour as any of those described by the Hon. Baronet (Sir G. Phillips)on a former occasion as proving the prosperity of the cotton trade in Lancashire. The district of about 60 miles round Belfast was full of weavers in active employment, and the band-looms were even earning about 43. a week, being pretty much the same as in Lancashire. The Hon. Member, after again praising the course adopted by Government in reducing taxation, concluded by observing that he considered the inquiry not to be desirable. Mr. HOLDSWORTH, although persuaded that the motives of the Hon. Mover, and of those who supported the motion, were most conscentiou,, yet felt that the in quiry could lead to no beneficial result. With respect to the manufactures, the distress experienced was in many cases occasioned by the transfer of them from one part of the kingdom to the other, which was constantly going on. He was convinced that the great pressure of distress was not so much on the poorer classes as on the classes imme diately above them—on the small shopkeepers, and small agriculturists; but he feared that the difficulties under which they were labouring were beyond the reach of legis lation. There was a want among them of that commer cial confidence which was essential to prosperity. The great evil under which the farmer at present laboured was, that in the existing state of the currency he was unable, when involved in any diffictilty, to obtain that assistance which could alone afford him relief. Bad as the resource might be, he was satisfied that an issue of small notes was the only mode in which the farmer could be assisted in his distresses: Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN—With reference to the reduction of taxes, thought they could not have been bet ter selected, nor did be know how they could go farther. Had the proper reductions been made by Lord Castlereagh, at compound interest by this time the country would have saved 100,000,000. Not a Session, however, had Passed that Government had not made promises which they had as Constantly broken, and he had no confidence whatever in their promises. The distresses of the country were very great, and they were not to be disbelieved because a few Gentlemen in that House took letters out of their pockets from different places, mentioning that workmen were in employment. These were partial statements. The far mers, manufacturers, and tradesmen, were unable to pay their rent and taxes, and the distress was universal. This could not altogether be occasioned by machinery, for the depression had taken place on all goods, prior to the great introduction of machine labour ; but it was the alteration of the currency which had added 40 per cent. to the depre ciation that had previously existed. He did not know how Government could take off taxes to the extent of the alteration of the currency, as the debt was so large that there ought to be a tax imposed upon property. Was the regulation of the currency by Ministers to be perpetual ? Were Ministers to legislate, and say that all others who had meddled with the currency before them were fools and idiots, and that they would do what no man must here after touch or examine ? If a Committee were granted, be saw no magic in:the sound of currency to prevent his exer cising his faculties upon it. The Bank Restriction Act had done ali the mischief. If the House would refer to the speeches delivered from the Throne, they would see that they were full of fallacies. At the commencement of I the Session of 1826, the Speech contained promises and strong expectations of prosperity, not one of which bad I been fulfilled. The next year the Speech confessed the errors of the last, but yet expressed another confident hope that the abatement of the distresses of the country would be pro gressive. Since this bankruptcies and every other com mercial evil had increased. In another Speech his Majesty was made to announce a considerable increase of revenue, when it wasknown to have decidedly decreased.—(A great deal of noise was heard at the bar.) He hoped that he stood on equal terms with others in that House, and that those Members who had constituents would feel too much for their suffering s to treat such subjects with levity.— (Hear, hear.)—For his part, having what very few in that House had, a numerous body of constituents, he felt that he should but ill discharge his duty to them if he abstained from expressing his opinions upon the causes of their dis tress.—(Hcar, hear.)—After the King, in his Speech of 1829, had spoken of the improvement of the revenue, it had fallen, and the country had gone on from bad to worse. It was the -duty of Government to satisfy the country, by appointing a Committee of Inquiry. If the Committee were to sit up-stairs, it would be a scene of party fun, the political economist s fighting down prices to the ruin of trade; but Government might send impartial men into the Committee, who would be fortified by their authority. The Right Hon. .7.4ntleman opposite had displayed con siderable adroitness last night. He might, in the language of the ring, be called a troublesome customer ; he shifted his ground so rapidly that there was no putting in a blow. The Right Hon. Gentleman said there was an increase in our imports for some years past—this was a mere fallacy —because - there had been for the last 30 years an in. crease in our imports, for they had kept due pace with the increase of our population. Again, the Right Hon. Gentleman, in alluding to the increase of exports during the five years from 1815 to 1820, had actually taken the imports because they suited his purpose better. Ile did not, however, mean to accuse the Right Hon. Member of un fairness; he presumed it proceeded from want of informa tion.—(Laughter.)—Next, he had to remark, that the Right Hon. Gent., in his statement, bad altogether passed by 1826, the events of which did not make in favour of his views. He (Alderman Waithmao) denied that there was any improvement in our exports—true, there had been an increase of one million in official value, but there was a falling off of seven millions in real value. He would now address himself to what was called free trade. He had been represented as an enemy to it, and as having abused it as such in the truse sense of the term. Never theless, he had never done so. He did not know how he was reported : he only saw one paper, and in that he was reported very briefly; but he was was in the recollection of the House, and Hon. Members would be aware of the truth of his assertion. He had not abused free trade, be cause there was no such thing; any common shopkeeper could tell them there was no such thing. The Right Hon. Gent, had said free trade was a nick-name. So it was. Free trade was founded on reciprocity—a new word, by the bye, invented by Lord Shelburne, during the progress of the treaty with France.—And what did Adam Smith —whom he looked upon as ►he best writer on the sub ject —say about free trade?—(Laughter.)—Did not Mr. Pitt, and all the other great men of his time, oppose free trade without an equivalent? The Right Honour able Gentleman had said that we had nothing to ex change for the products of other countries but our labour; and yet he was introducing foreign manufactures, to drive our own out of the market. They had all, doubtless, read an authentic history, entitled " The Life and Opi nions of Tristram Shandy, Gent." In this it appeared that Mr. William Shandy, the father of Tristram, was a very profound and subtle philosopher; and he discovered that the world had been for centuries labouring under an egregious error, in bringing children into the world with the wrong end foremost.—(Loud laughter.)—Now, the Right Hon. Gentleman had also his theory; and he had, moreover, the opportunity of putting it in practice ; and, notwithstanding its absurdity, he still clung to it ; but, if Mr. Shandy had tried his experiment he would nut have been fool enough not to give it up.—(Loud and continued laughter.)—The Hon. Member then proceeded to state that the labouring classes were taxed, on some articles, five or six hundred per cent., and complained of the une qual pressure of the public burthens, in illustration of which he observed that the servant girl was charged a duty of Is. Bd. upon the garment for which she paid 4a., while the mistress was only taxed to the same amount for the robe that cost 30s. He totally disagreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman in the views he had advanced re specting the state of the country, and in those opinions he had last night advocated, which were not those he had once entertained. He thought the best way of convicting a man was out of his own mouth ; be would therefore ap peal from Philip drunk to Philip sober. Ho would ac cordingly read an extract from a speech delivered by the Right Hon. Gentleman in 1814. The Right Hon. Gen tleman then said be was averse to go into a Committee on corn, but that the petitions were an numerous that he could not refuse to accede to their prayer.—(Cries of question. )—The Honourable Member then read the following extract:—" With respect to the encou ragement which ought to be afforded to the farmer, it should be considered that there was now a great diminution in the value of motley; and that the capi tal necessary for carrying on of farming operations must now he double to what it was before the war. The Noble Lord (Lord A. Hamilton) deceived himself, there fore, if he thought that things could return to what they were before the war. This was one of the moat dange rous errors which could be entertained. What was likely to be the permanent charge of the country, now that the war was at an end ? The whole expenses of this country, including all our establishments, only amounted to sixteen millions. Would this produce no alteration in the money value of the articles? When gentlemen talked of the in creased price of bread, was not every thing else raised in proportion, and that not in consequence of the high price of bread, but the amount of taxation? It was impossible for the country to return to the prices before the war.— It had been said the obvious remedy was to lower rents.— He had not the good fortune to be a landholder, and he had no interest but that of the public in general in view. The proportion of the gross proceeds of land which now came to the landlord, however it might be represented in money, was now much less than what it was in 1792. Previous to the war, in a farm of moderate extent, the farmer con sidered himself requited if he made three rents from it. But it was necessary in the case of such a farm now that the farmer should make at least five rents to be enabled to go on. If even the whole rent of the country were re mitted, it would be impossible to return to the prices before the war. He was not afraid to declare that the people of this country must not expect, be the law what it may, that, with our burthens, the price of bread can ever be less than double what it was before the war." —The Hon. Member proceeded, amidst cries of question ! Ile thought taxation ought to be made general ; they must either raise the prices to the taxation, or they must bring down taxation to the prices.—(Noise—cougbing— cries of question.)—He could assure the Hon. Mem bers who were coughing, that if the effort was not painful to himself, he wool,' speak fir another hour. —(Continued coughing.) He believed that the Hon. Members who were interrupting him had no constituents to represent, and had not the interest of the people at heart. If he was talking nonsense, he might be exposed; and if his arguments were bad they might be answered; but he thought that it reflected little honour on young gentlemen who had received a University education, and on sprigs of Nobility, to attempt to put down a plain man who was doing what he conceived to be his duty.—(Hear, hear.) It was true he knew little—be had not been blessed with the advantages of those Hon. Members—in fact, he possessed nothing except what he had gained by his own labour and assiduity; but those hours which others devoted to cards and the bottle, he had app:ied to the acquisition of useful information.—(Laught e r, and cries of " Question.") Labour, he said, in this country was taxed at 74 per cent., and therefore the raw material. By the measures of trade that haul been adopted, the peOple were thrown out of employment. They might as well bring some thousands of Frenchmen to work in England. The country could not in his opinion go on year after year with depreciation and distress ; he should accordingly, for one, vote for going into Committee; he would rather, however, that Ministers would inquire of individuals who were capable of giving them information, and come down to the House with some plan of their own. As for the reduction which had taken place in taxation, he thought it would not be of the least effect in reducing the sum of public distress. Mr. TYLER, of his own knowledge, could say, that the silk trade was in a most deplorable state, and he could not deny that the suffering of the people was great; and he considered that it was a great aggravation of the public distress to have Hon. Gentlemen get up and endeavour to fritter it away. The silk trade, a most important branch of the commerce of the country, was in great distress, and the necessity of relieving it would be manifested when it was considered that half a million of persons were em ployed in it. The Right Hon. Gentletoan opposite had talked of that trade as a new creation ; but if it was so, it was a branch of industry that had been rapidly increas ing for fifteen years preceding that in which the Right Hon. Gentleman's measures had been adopted. Since they had come into operation there had been a great re duction in it—a reduction amounting, since 1828, to 20 per cent., and, since 1827, to 30 per cent. It was true, that lower prices would alone enable us to compete with foreigners; but how were people to go on with prices lower than they were at present? If he were called on to state what were the causes of the present depression of the manufacturing interest, he should not say that it was en tirely owing to the late measures, hut partly to them, and partly to the position in which the country stood at the end of the war. Mr. BRAMSTON and Mr. Peel rose together; the cries for the latter were very loud, but the Right Hon. Gent. gave way, and Mr. Bramaton addressed the House. A few days since he had had the honour of being returned to that House from a very large and important agricultural county, from whence he came convinced of the reality and prevalence of public distress. The dis tress, indeed, was not universal, but it was abundant, by far too abundant. He had entered those walls an advo cate for inquiry, but after he bad listened patiently to the arguments used in the course of the debate, he must say that it appeared to hint that the desire for inquiry was arrested by the state in which the discussion was now placed. There were two matters which the Committee, if appointed, must take into their consideration—cur rency and taxation. As to the first, although the princi ple of the measure of 1819 might have been wrong, or might have been too hastily acted upon, yet, after it had been acted upon for eleven years, a return to the old sys tem would only be productive of inconvenience.—(Hrar.) --Another objection to a return to paper currency was, that it would have tt:e effect of advancing the price of the produce of the soil. As to the question of taxation, he must express his concurrence with the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and his b e li e f that the Go- Term:neat had made reductions to as great an extent as prudence would allow.—(Hear, hear.)—He should vote against the Committee. Mr. LOCKHART on every ground should support the motion for a Committee. • , • Mr. W. HORTON said that his Committee had been refused on the ground that the inquiries involved were too extensive—an objection that he thought particularly applicable to the present motion. Mr. ATTWOOD said the House were not called on-to inquire now what were the causes of the present distress, and the speech of the Right lion. Member for Liverpool had, therefore, been out of place. It would hare been more appropriate in the Committee. The question was, whether there did exist that degree of distress and suffer. ing that demanded the attention of the House. He s h ou ld have preferred a Committee of the whole House, and to have had evidence given at the Bar, as more suitable to the magnitude of the occasion. He would take the state of the country from the speeches of those from whom he differed. Hs would take it even in the mitigated language used in the Speech from the Throne, and of which the President of the Board of Trade had told them be had the confirmation in his pocket. If what that Right Hon. Gent. produced as confirmation was to be called confirmae tion, never was any so unworthy of the original document. The Right Hon. Gent. said that he had received letters which had been sent him from different parts to inform hiM that the King's statement of the condition of the country was correct, although that statement was in direct opposie tion to the voice of the people. If the Ministers thought that there was but a trifling amount of distress, lie thought the patient attention with which the House bad listened to these discussions must have convinced them of their error. The proposed Committee was objected to, because it way so extensive in its nature, that the corn laws must form One of the subjects of inquiry. Why, were they not in-- quired into among the people, and were not the people die videti on that question ? He must quarrel with the speech of the lion. Member for London (Mr. Ward), who had given them only half of his opinion. That lion. Gent. had said that rents must fall one-half, but he lal not told the reason why they must do so. He (Mr. Attwood) would supply that deficiency, the fall arose from the alters tion of the standard of value. The late Bill had, in fast, fixed the amount of the value of wheat at 40s. or 50s, a quarter. The Hon. Gentleman must know that the landed interests of this country were under engagements from which the moneyed into were free; and he ought to know.' that a fall of one-half in their rents would occasion the dee attention of the landed proprietors. , He would not ssf whether the measure of diminishing the standard of value was necessary or not ; hut he would assert, that as far as the landed proprietors were concerned, it was a direct cor , fiseation of one-half of their property, and that a formal confiscation of one-half would not produce a more corn-. plete effect. The rate of interest of money had been stated as a proof of improvement in the country, but lie begged to deny that the rate of interest in the London market Wag any criterion of the rate of interest elsewhere, governed at it was in. London by stock speculations and a variety of other circumstances, which left its changes, without any known rule by which they were guided. The conduct of Government respecting the currency had operated as . 1,, confiscation on the property of the landed man for the benefit of the moneyed man. The Right Hon. Member fir Liverpool had contended that the question was too mighty and too extensive for inquiry by the House of Commons ; but did it become the representatives of the suffering people to occupy themselves only in imposing taxes anti voting supplies, until ruin became inevitable, and from one end to the other the country only exhibited the spectacle of a struggle for the spoil. The Right Hon. Gentleman, in the course of his speech, had quoted pri vate letters, but it would have been far better if he ha" referred to the petitions of the people from Glasgow, Bir mingham, Renfrew, and many other parts of the kingdoms He hail said at the time that the contents of those letters would be heard with satisfaction by the House; the only satisfaCtion he (Mr. Attwood) had derived from them Wa g a conviction that the whole theory of the Right Hoot Gentleman was fallacious. In their petitions th e people not only expressed great distress, but great dis trust : they demanded a Reform of Parliament ; and le t it not be forgotten, that that demand no longer came from a decided minority. The objection formerly was to the original constitution of the House of Commons, and to this the triumphant and conclusive answer was, that although imperfect in construction, it was perfect in prac tice. Now, however, that reply was inapplicable, for the character of the House of Commons was changed : it no longer dealt with the interests of the people for the benefit of the people, and the disposition of the people was to deal with the House as it dealt with them. The 65 8 Members of which it was composed were, no doubt, re spectable in their private capacities--sufficient .in elo quence, and earnest in midnight debate; but the p e ople felt and did not scruple to assert that in their collective capacity they Were incompetent, corrupt, and partial, and ncgtigent of their important functions of guarding and pre serving the national welfare. lie (Mr. Attwood) co uld very well account for the reluctance of the Right Hon. Member for Liverpool to enter into the inquiry. H e bad, said that for the last thirty years lie had been more or less engaged in the transactions of the country; but he had forgotten to add, that lie had only influenced its councils during the decline of its prosperity. Quorum magna pars fui, he might well claim to be during the whole period of calamity, but his connection with public affairs was evidently slight during the period of its prosperity. It did not, however, become the House of Commons to take its notion of the real condition of the people from any individual. The representatives of the people ought to communicate their deliberate opinions to the Ministers of the Crown. At this moment an important crisis was hanging over the country—not commercial, but financial and political; and no more fatal error could be in dulged than that the Government was to be guided by individual views and partial interests. The only salutary course was pointed out by experience, and upon this point the Right Hon. Gentleman had reminded the How.e of the tremendous difficulties with which the country had had to stt uggle at former periods. He bad talked of the Mutiny in the Navy, of the Rebellion in Ire land, awl of America rising in monstrous and unnatural arms. In those struggles, however, the strength and re sources of the country had been more than equal to the claim, upon them, and the result was triumphant.. What was the contrast at this moment? After a long_continu ance of peace, when the people hoped for ease and relaxa tion, and for a reduction of their burdens—those burdens, undo r the pretence of diminution, had been insidiously and most onerously increased. Nevertheless, he called upon the House of Commons to discharge its most important duty—t o exert its deliberate wisdom —to vindicate its an- cient character--and to endeavour to discover, by inquiry, what was that mysterious power which blasted the efforts of industry, deprived labour of its just reward, and peace of all the blessings by which it ought to be accompanied. Let it ascertain what had rendered this country, once the awful safeguard of Europe, now its acorn and opprobrium —a byword for weakness and vaeillation. It was rho first duty of the House, without a moment's delay,..to com mence the investigation, and to learn and proclaim. to the people the real causes of their sufferings. The most ridi culous attempts bad been made to account for the diaastrous change, and the had harvests of 1621 and 1529 had been mentioned, as if a frost or a south-west wind were capable of effecting the ruin of a nation. Would the thrice-told, tale of n overpopulat i on angtariondbuectrioern o ive f d rn ? acOhirney b w r onlcl op i!be ,:ou e c o e n ( i calamity, and that it was fit to introduce some new l a w t t o td li e m d it h tahtetieme i employment of the steam-engine ? Was the notion again to be broached, that bad bankers had destroyed the country? Or were they now to be called upon by the issue of notes to retrieve the nation they had before ruined? It was quite clear that the Brenda Banks had not answered the purpose for which they were esta blished ; and now, perhaps, resort was to be had to Joint Stock Banks, although it had been formerly argued thitt the panic of 1825 had been produced by Joint Stock Com panies. In this hour of distress, unexampled in our time, lie begged to recall the attention of the House to what had been its conduct during the last few years. It bad been engaged, among other things, in eetataishing , a system of free trade • and what had been the consequence?.. That it niv e l world. Next, PaeliaineoS p t a o th i e n t e ic ess t a l:a t t a nittisherteurnriki-lfro:30; otrlelnerdenreadtiozesrosefifthteh7ocrlodm, common s h it'a l vh a i ta g a d ' sgt h h e t r e m iGen s j p , gree l -c o t as; :y tt o u e e d c nk h b i ry t o tf e aa : il f tni t h h i e n t e hhemei h vi d tampering o f with Gover n t:e e n monetary o 7 1: t a h ry e c 5, 1 3 1: d rtueennititcilY'l°hinadtdeoli;yetnea a n n w subjectedsim material but a new value had bee t substituted. The object had been to give what was gullet r a em w e h m oles c o r ln th e a c t i a rc t u t l h a a t t in m g medium, moment twas given the last and yet let the-Ifou stroke to the ruin of th e country , an d a ll c l a eies *ere in volved in the general ca l am i ty . Th e Right Hon. Ge i t. had stated that distr ess ex i ste d i n f ore ign countri es; a nd if that were the fact, i t was t h e d ut y- o f th os e •Govarn meats t, inquire an d t o reme d y . It W as i mposs ibl e th a t Great Britain co u ld b e i n h er present con di t i on Of pov , r tf ' and misery without producing an injurioui effect upon other nations : it must be felt in America, Indiai Chine , and in almost every corner of the universal globe- At this late hour, and alter the ample discussion thu question had already undergone, he would.only, itt.cenelo' : sion, ca'l up n the House to hear in mind, - that'll,. 0 3 ! 1 midst of the triumphant majorities which carried the pleis tion of the change in the currency there were found mea°l; i t etp subject, Right would directly any °the pr e an d titula r i templati, b e Prude Vert to up on b y ing, and meat. be touch was not importt u Indeed, he thou advantal victual this nut! in