The Sun. — London, England, 1833-04-18 00:00:00

draw the line between the privileges which the Jews ale alb! be allowed to possess, and the privileges which the Jews. should not be allowed to possess? Would they say that a Jew should be allowed to vote for the return of a Member of that House, but that be should not be allowed to be a Membe: of that House himself? Would they say that he should be allowed to be a ynrytnan, but that he should not be allowed to be a Judge—that be should be allowed to give a verdict for damages, but that he should not he allowed to grant a new trial? Would they say that he should not be allowed to be a Member of the Privy Council, while at the same time he possessed an influence in the Money Market which gave him a controul over the affairs of empires, more powerful and extensive than that enjoyed by any of those who were at the head of public affairs ? Would they say that, although on the meeting of a Congress in Europe to patch up a sudden peace, he might be treated, not as his ancestor bad been, who was tied down in a chair while a dentist was sent for to torture him into a cont. pliance with extortionate demands, hut on terms of per fect eqnality with the assembled Statesmen, he should, at the same time, not be permitted to sit in Parliament for the smallest district in the country? Did those who could thus argue, suppose that the Supreme Being—if it were allowable to introduce so solemn a name in such a discussion—did they suppose that the Supreme Being re garded forms rather than substance? and that he would not consider it a mockery to keep the Jew from the pos session of political power, while, at the same time, be w" permitted to possess that which gave political power? The whole system of his Right Hon. Friend the Member for Oxf it'd, went to effect a compromise between matters Which did not admit of any compromise. It went to effect a compromise between the principles of persecution and the principles of toleration. But the spirit of the age would not bear his Hon. Friend out in his proposition. His Hon. Priend proposed to draw an arbitary line, and to declare that on one side of that line was persecution, and Ott the other side toleration. His Hon. Friend said, "such and such qualifications I des not choose to call political ;sewer, and, therefore, I will give them ; such and such qualifications I do choose to call political power, and, therefore, I will withhold them." Why those who, in former 'times, cut off the heads of Jews, dragged Jews at horses' tails, and buret Jews at the stake, although they had clime of ti e humanity of hie Hon. Friend, had much more consistency. His Hon. Friend had repeated what had been stated before in that House, that to admit a Jew to the Bench was to give up the restraint which the law at present imposed upon blasphemy. He (Mr. Macaulay) was not prepared to defend in all respects the present laws against blasphemy; but he was convinced that the mall'. treance of sound and wise laws against blasphemy was perfectly compatibl e with having an enlightened Jew on the Bench. Ir. his opinion, all persons ought to have the liberty of temperately discussing the truth of any religion, but they ought not to have the liberty of forcing on the netts and on the ears of their neighbours sights awl sounds talcolated to insult and outrage them. If a man chose to tself " Pain's Rights of Man" in a back shop, or to read in it private room a lecture against revealed religion, in his (Mr. Macaulay's) opinion, th it man ought not to be pro secuted. But if in a great public thoroughfare be ex hibited a hideous caricature, or if in any place of public resort he uttered gross and outrageous expressions agsinst that religion, which ninety nine out of a hundred of those around him were accustomed to regard with reverence, he ought to be punished not for a libel, but for a nuisance ; not for attacking that which we knew to be true, but for giving pain and disgust to his ni ighbours. Such a man was no more entitled to offer a gross insult to religion, and say that he had a right to freedom of opinion, than another man would have to establish a noisome and offensive manufac ture in any neighbourhood, and say that he had a right to his property : or to run up and down the streets n .keil, and say that he had a right to lecomotion. What was the principle by which all civilized nations were regulated with respect to the rites of burial? That the law should protect the remains of the dead from insult. In the le gislative regulations with respect to dissections, lately made in this country, a provision was introduced to pre vent the feelings of the friends and relations of the de ceased from being outraged ; and surely the same right which a man had that his father's body should not be treated with indignity for the sake of science, he also had that his religious feelings towards his Maker should not be outraged, under the pretence of a religious discussion. There appeared to him to be no difficulty in the case. If that which be had just stated was the rule, he could not see why a Jew, who was appointed to the bench, could not conscientiously administer that rule. But no charge could be brought against the Jews of evincing any dispo sition to attack the Christian religion, or to offend its professors. It was true that one imputation of such a nature. bad lately been thrown out in that House; but it was entirely unfounded. He had seen a great deal of the worship of the Jews, arid he bad heard a great deal upon the subject from others ; and, from all „that he had seen, and all that be had heard, he was able to say, without the slightest fear of contradiction, that there was no part of the Jewish worship, which was not only not insulting to Christians, but in which Christians might not, without, the least difficulty, join. There was nothing in the religious doctrines of the Jews calculated to render them either bad subjects or bad neighbours. Their deca logue was the same as ours—the foundation of all their moral law was the same as ours. It had been contended by his Hon. Friend (the Member for the University of Oxford), that the existence of the Prophecies, which doomed the Jews to be miserable wanderers over the face of the earth, was an argument against . the adoption of the mensure proposed by his Right Hon. and Learned Friend. He (Mr. Macaulay) felt himself capable of proving, by absolute demonstration, that nothing could be more futile than such a supposition. If those prophecies meant that the Jews should never, while" as a nation they conti nued to wander over the face of the earth, he placed on perfect equality in civil rights with the people among whom they might happen to live, those pro phecies were false. Fur it was a a fact, that throughout the United States of America Jews enjoyed an equal participation of civil rights with the Americans them selves; and it was clear, therefore, either that the prophe cies were demonstrably false, or that those who put the construction on them to which he had just alluded utterly misapprehended their true character. As to the ultimate return to Jerusalem, anticipated by the Jews, it was scarcely necessary for him to observe, that remote events, and especially events which were to occur at an indefinite time, seldom possessed much influence over the conduct of men. 'lf distant and contingent events possessed any powerful influence, they should possess it over Christians as well as over Jews ; for Christians all expected great changes ; none supposed that the present state of things would last for ever ; and there was one large class which confidently anticipated the Dear approach of the l"lillenium. There was one important point in which the Jews had a great advent ige over the professors of any other religion which we believed to be false. There was nut the slightest chance that their doctrines would spread. It was notorious that the Jews did not wish to make proeelytes--nay, they almost rejected them, and seemed to think it culpable pre sumption in any one who did not belong to their race, to aspire to belong to their religion. 'Under these Circutn stances, it was not at all extraordinary that the conversion of a Jew to Christianity. was at least as rare an occurrrnee as a total eclipse of the Suo. He had never heard but of one such conversion, and that was a very remarkable case. He alluded to the instance of Lord George Gordon. Now, if there was any eonvert, of which a proselytizing sect would have been proud, it was that individual—not only because he was a man of high rank and large property, and a Member of the Legislature, but because tie hail been distinguished by the intolerance and ferocity of the zeal with which he bad advocated his coo n peculiar doctrines of Christianity. But how bad Lord G. Gordon been treated after his admission by his now friends ? He aas reuctantly and slowly initiated in all the painful ceremonials of the Jewish religion ; but when, on his death-bed, he talked of the rites of burial according -to the Jewish form, he was told that those rites could not he panted to him. . But the House had been told that the ws were an unsocial people—that they would enter into no friendly commune cations with their neighhours. Thus that very peculiarity in their ch iracter which protected Christianity from the danger of any attempts on•their part of making proselytes, was produced against them in another sh ipe as a charge. It was strange to compare the manner in which the ques tion for the emancipation of the Catholics had been argued with the to inner in which the question fur the emancipa tion of the Jews was now argued. When the emancipa tion of the Catholics was opposed, the Catholics were described as restless, insinuating, insatiable; as prepared to take every advantage, and to adopt whatever measures might be c•ilculated to give them an ascendancy. It was stated that social, learned, artful, clever individuals of their body were constantly employed as emissaries for the purpose of corrupting the religious faith of the various countries to which they -were sent ; that to carry that great object into effect, they pretended to employ them selves in making astronomical observations for the Em_ pet or of China, a nd in imparting the lights of civilization to the natives of Paraguay ; that go wh ere you wi ll you would find Catholic Priests earnestly e , ga i ged in attempting the conversion of the members of other religions to their own faith. But now, when the question relAted, to the toleration o f a reli g ion, the tonl I ke proselytes, professors of which never attetops---- , and v. ere not content with having a separate religion un le-te they could live in a separate family, that very cir- cumstance was turned against them ; they were charged with being unsocial, and on that charge was founded the refusal to admit them to a participation of political power. The fact was, however, that the logic of bigotry and intolerance was never wanting whenever it was thought sirahle to attack the character of a religious sect. Let it be proposed to tolerate any sect whatever, and to that ct the most dangerous qualities were, for the time, attributed. As to the charge of unsociability brought against the Jews, it was true, as it regarded their reli gion ; and that was an additional security to which it might otherwise be supposed the Christian religion would h exposed by the admission of the Jews to civil rights. But that they were unsociable in their political capacity and as neighbours, had not been proved, and without proof was not to be believed. His Right Hon. and Learned Friend bad 'produced a gre it miss of testimony to show that such was not the case; upon which testimony his lion. Friend, the Member for the University of Oxford, had made no impression whatever. But the charge, if true. was applicable not to the character of the Jews alone, but ter the character of all persecuted Recta which had existed in various nations. From the reign of Queen Eliz theth down to the Revolution, the Catholics in this country had evinced much greater confidence and attachment in foreign princes than in their own. It was a saying of Cromwell's, that all Catholics in England were espagnioli , ed. It might have been said at a subsequent period, when France be came the chief Catholic power, that they were gallicised. In consequence of this constant recurrence to foreign powers, the Catholics had a religious patriotism, which was separate from their national patriotism. It was the same thing with the Calvinists. When the Calvinists in this country were persecuted, they were constantly look ing to the Calvinists of France for support. In Fr nce, on the other hand, the Hugonots thought the English Protestants much more their countrymen than French Catholics. In this country we had abolished all invidious religious distinctions respecting Catholics and Calvinists, and the consequence was, that if England were invaded to-morrow, neither C tholic nor Calvinist would trouble his head to consider whether the invaders were the most bigotted Catholics, or the most bigotted Calvinists. Why not try the same experiment with the Jews? Why not try the same experiment which had been tried in France and Prussia ' and which was now trying in the Unit e d State s o f America ? Why not, if the Jews were supposed to be an unsocial and disloyal class of men, convert them into a so cial and loyal class of men ? The only other main charge brought against the Jewish character had not been brought by his Hon. Friend the Member for the Uni versity of Oxford, for his Hon. Friend had too much knowledge and taste to bring such a charge, but it had been brought by others. It had been brought by the Hon. Member for Oldham, whom lie was sorry not to s,e in his place. It had b-en stated by that Hon. Member that the Jews were a mean race, that they were a sordid race, that they were a money getting race, that they were averse to all honourable pursuits, and fit for nothing but those of usury—an occupation to which they sacrificed all patrio tic feelings and all social affections. He (Mr. Maemley) believed that this would IT found to be anosher example of that logic of bigotry and intolerance which hail been manifested in all ages, and which having in the first in stance generated vices then made those vices a plea for persecution. If England had been to the Jews only half a country, bow could we expect from the Jews feelings of more than half patriotism? They had always treated the Jews as foreigners, and they now won 'ered that the Jews did not ferias natives. They had driven the Jews to live by mean occupations, and trey now wondered they did not cultivate honourable ones. They prevented the Jews from possessing an acre of land, and they now com plained that the Jew. devoted themselves entirely to trade. They debarred the Jews from the pursuits of honourable ambition, and they now reproached them for taking refuge in the employments of avarice. For many ages they had inflicted injustice upon the Jews, and they were then sur prised 'that the Jews bad recourse to the artifice and cunning which were the invariable defences of the weak, against the overwhelming power of the strong. —(H-ar, hear, hear.) Those who of po , ed the emanci pation of the Jews, were sufficiently acquainted with the Jewish History to know that the vices and imper fections now charged against the Jews were not natural to the Jewish character. There was nothing in that cha racter which incapacitated them from discharging the highest duties of citizenship. In the earliest ages of civi lization, when all other countries of the earth were still in a state of barbarism—when letters and arts were yet un known in Athens—when scarcely a but stood on the spot which was afterwards to be Rome—this despised nation had made large conquests, possessed great * political power, established numerous manufactures, c 'flied on an extensive commerce, erected splendid temples and palaces, and boasted of eminent statesmen, warriors, philosophers, historians, and poets. What nation had ever more manful y exerted itself in the cause of civil and religious liberty ? What nation, in the la-t agonies of its dissolution, h a d given greater proofs of what might be accomplished by a brave despair? If, in the course of many ages, this despised and ill-treated people might have, in some degree, degene rated from the qualities of their forefathers—if, by having been subjected to humiliation and slavery, they might have contracted some of the vices peculiar to outcasts and slaves, instead of b,ing a subject of reproach to them, was it not ather a subject of shame and remorse to us ? Let the House do justice to the Jews. Let them repeal the disa bilities under which they laboured—the last relics of in tolerance in this country. Let them opea to the Jews the doors of that House—let them open to the Jews every career of honourable competition. Until they did that, let no man presume to say that there was no genius in the countrymen of Isaiah, and no valour in the descendants of the .Maccabees.—(Hear, hear, hear.) In supporting the proposition of his Right Hon. and Learned Friend, be considered himself supporting the true interests of Christianity. He should think that he was offering a gross insult to his religion, if he were to say that such an aid as intolerance was necessary for its support. Without such an aid it had been established, and without such an aid he was confident it might be maintained. It had tamed barbarous, and overpowered refined nations. It had triumphed over the graceful mythology of the Greeks, and the rude and bloody rites of Saxon superstition had vanished before it. But all .these victories had been achieved, not by intolerance, but by toleration ; for we learnt from history that the early Christians looked upon persecution not as an ally but as a foe. "May the Christian religion (said Mr. Macaulay, in conclusion) continue far ages to bless this country with its genial in fluence; strong in its acute and lofty philosopry—stroog in its spotless morality—strong in that powerful evidence, to which the most comprehensive minds have surrendered their belief; the last consolation of those who have out lived every earthly hope—the ►ast restraint of those who are above all earthly fear, But, Sir, let us not mistake the character of that divine religion—let us not attempt to fight the battle of truth with the weapons of error, or endeavour to support by oppression a religion whose noblest distinction is, that it first taught the human race the lesson of universal charity."—(The Hon. Gentleman -at down amidst the loudest cheers. We regret that the rapidity with which he spoke has incapacitated us from giving more than an imperfect outline of one of the most eloquent speeches that we were ever so fortunate as to hear.) HALCONI BE rose under the greatest disadvantage, after the eloquent address which the House had just heard —a speech, however, which abounded with sophistry. The Hon. Member was not entitled to call that persecu• (ion which merely prevented men from obtaining advant ages, the conditions of obtaining which they were not willing to fulfil. A country was entitled to confer poli tical power only on those whom it chose to select for that purpose. There was no abstract right in men to political power ; for political power, fur the conduct of affairs, could not be ve•tett in the whole of the people ; and must, thereore, he entrusted to a selec . portion of them. Those selected must he qua ified in the manner which the Con stitution of Encland Lad long required. Among those qualifications, was the test of a religious creed ; a most wise security, applying, as it did, not to temporaities, but to matters of a spiritual nature. He admitted the Jews were a hotly against whose moral character nothing could he adduced; that they were good and loyal citizens of the King ; but in this usost Christian country—Christian at l-ast b e yond tho-e walls—it was not right that full po litical privileges should be - conceited to them. Mr. POULTER thought it might be fait ly hoped, that by admitting the Jews to an equal participation in the privileges of Englishmen, they would, before very long, lead them to a reconsideration of their religious opinions. From the common vices of man, it must be recollected, and that which more especially prevailed in this country— drunkenness—the Jews were wholly exempt. They were unstained by political crimes—they contributed cheerfully to the wants of the state—paid their full quota of taxe., and they ought no longer to be contumeliously debaired from those privileges which other sects so full:, and so freely enjoyed. Mr. IiUME c: , uld not find any arguments to at:a vet against the prodosition for the removal of these unjust and injudicious disabilities. The arguments of the lion. Member for Oxford on the subject of the Jews' oath had no weight in his mind—they swore by Jehovah on the Old Testament, and we by God on the Gospels, which ;aktsnnedtri eoponanrwtehaeialtl?or‘evaeNsdo,nafloc, uglpdowlwi would e i . c lr a de l t.g p uis r ve i was the on l y difference. . It had been s a id, if this sec, them wee Brahmins :ia p t le r a i s g u h re t 'e hire g t o r b e y t a h t than seeing Brahmins and Parstai in that Hume. (A laugh.) lie would tell Hen. Members, from his own ex perience, that they were as intelligent and valuable a class as any in their own country. He should give the resolu tion his most hearty support. He could read a letter to the House from Quincy Adams, the late President of the United Sates, stating there were no better citizens than the Jews, and expressing a hope that ere long the whole of Europe would see the justice and the wisdom of freely con ceding to them the fullest political privileges. There were loud cries of question, and Sir R. INGLIS rose, and was understood to say, that he never expected to divide on that occasion, and he felt the less inclination to do so in the absence of his Majesty's 'Ministers. Mr. O'CONNELL must say one word on an occasion is which his feelings were so warmly interested. He had struggled for religious liberty, not for sectarian advantages, but for the principle that man's conscience should be free—that he was equally punished by unjust restrictions as by unmerited stripes. He was delighted the day of good feeling in these matters had come—that this respect able and ancient nation, which hail faithfully preserved a high religious sentiment, was no longer to be estranged— and that they could at last see te e period when some. thing like justice was granted to all men—when conscience was free, and the country rid of a stain which had so long dishonoured her.—(Cheers; and cries of " Question.") Mr. W. ROCHE said a few words which were drowned in the vehement cries of " Question," and The CHAIRMAN read the resolution. The " Ayes" resounded in one loud and hearty tone through the House; the " Noes" were weak, and " few and far between." The CHAIRMAN declared the resolution carried—an annunciation which was followed by loud and long-con tinued cheers. _ _ PROCLAIMING OF KILKENNY. Mr. O'CONNELL wished to call the attention of the House to certain occurrences which bad taken place in Ireland since the passing of the Coercion Bill, which at once put tto and to everything in the shape of constitutional right. It had been frequently asserted, during the pro. gress of that Bill through the House. that it was more than probable it would never be put in force at all ; yet not twenty-four hours were suffered to el ipse after its arrival in Dublin before an entire county was proclaimed under it, and that in the most tyrannical and offensive manner. Ireland for 700 years had bitterly felt the oppression and the galling tyranny of this country, yet she never at any period felt such an indignant sense of in juieire as now. Why was the whole county of Kilkenny proclaimed, when they had it only a f.or days since, on the authority of the Noble Lord opposite, that a part of it only was disturbed ? Way, then, resort to the severe measure of proclaiming beyond the pit is disturbed ? But that was not the subject of his present complaint Not content with putting the county beyond the pale of the Constitution, the Irish Government must proceed the length of proclaiming the county of the city. The city, it should be known, contained 25,000 inhabitants, an had straggling suburbs tracing into the county. In those stibur,.s there had, he too well knew, been three or four Whitefeet offences ; but they furnished no valid ground for proclaiming the city. The night before this harsh and unrolled-for measure, there was what he might term a lame melancholy me riment amongst the people. Music was provided, and hen night was fast closing in, many of those melancholy airs were played which were for ever wedded to the Irish mind by the series of calamities in flicted on her by this country. The second night came on, but they were interfered with by tie Lord Lieutenant issuing his proclamation, which, to call despotic, was to treat it lightly, for it woe, in fact, most brutal.—(A good deal of conversation had been going on since the com mencement of the Hon. Member's remarks ) The House was all ele+s. Why should it not be? It was only an act of despotism he was complaining of—i was only an added insult—a new wrong upon his unfortunate country. He was otiliged to raise his voice to the highest pitch, for the poor chance of getting some ona on the other side of the tattle to hear hint. The proclamation of which he complained was signed, to his astonishment, by several of the Judges. He was assured that the reason why the city of Kilk. nay bad been proclaimed was thlt the officers woo where doing duty in that county might have the benefit of good accommodation. He believed be should be able to show that this was the re mon it he was allowed to have what he noise applied for, a copy of the dispatch trom the Lord Lieutenant or the Secretary of Ireland, stating the reason why that city had been proclaimed. if the dispatch was produced, the reason he had stated would he found to be avowed. Bath would not be produced—it would be sup pressed ; and he knew that it was of little use for him to appeal to that House, who were not inclin d to listen to appeals on behalf of Ireland. He spoke without disguise on that subject at least.—(Hear.) He moved far copies of all proclamations and orders is-rued by the Lore-Lieute nant under the authority of the late Act; for returns of to e number of per-ons committed to the county gaol of Kilkenny, the offences wi h which they were charged, the time when and toe place where those offences were alleged to have been committed; how many of those pri sonerA had been tr ed, and whether they were convicted or acquitted. He also moved for a copy of any dispatch from the 1, ,, rd-Lieutenant or the Secretary for Ireland, stating the reasons on which the city of Kilkenny had been pro clai med. Sir J. HOBHOUSE must, on this first occasion of his addressing the House in the situation which be now occu pied, protest against the assertion made by the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, that the British Parliament was not inclined to do j-cistke to Ireland, or to listen to ap peals in her favour, or to hear in good faith everything that was advanced in her behalf by those whom she sent hither as her rep.esentatives. If the Hon. Member real , y meant this, let him firing the question fairly before the House, and he would find that it could be met most trium phatitly,—(Hear, hear.) The question which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman asked, was, why the city of Kilkenny bad been pruclarned. The answer was to be found in the state of the county of Kilkenny for the last year. In that time more offences bad ben committed in that citunty than in the whole province of Ulster taken together. From the Ist to the 14th of March alone, there were 114 offences against which it was the intention of the late act to provide, committed in that county. It was manifest, therefore, that it was ne cessary to proclaim the county of Kilkenny; and when they proclaimed the county, were they to leave out of the operation of the Act the city, which W , IB the most impor. tart part of it ? He had a communication from the county to show, that it teas from the understanding that this Act would be at once put in operation, that the magistracy did not assemble and address the Lord Lieutenant to put the Act in operation there. Knowing that Kilkenny would be made the subject of discussion, he had thought it his duty on the day he came into office to write to Ireland, expressing his wish that the city of Kilkenny should not if possible, be included in the operation of the Act. The answer be received was, that the first wish was not to in clude the city, but that it was found in the suburbs and in city itself, there were numbers of the very persons who were not only suspected but known to be considerably im plicated in these very Whitelet outrages which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had been among the first to dis , claim, and to put down, which he had again and again de clared that he would lend a vigour beyond the law— namely, his own—(A laugh)—to put it down. To leave the city unprociaitned, would be to allow it to be the refu..e to those who were gu , lty of these outrages. The inha oil ants of Kilkenny were slisfied that this Proclamation had been the means of their protection. There would be no objection to g,ve the copy of the proclamation, for it tad been placarded; nor any to give the amount of com mittals, though it would nut show the real state of crime, tor out of ten offences th.re were not more than one or two committals. The dispatch could not be grlnted ; but be e.aild assure the House, that, if produced, it would not only confirm, hat would utterly contradict, the statement of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, that the city had been proclaimed in order that the officers might enjoy the advantages of the good hotels there.—(Hear.) Mr. SULLIVAN said, that if there wis any ground for inflicting this Act on the city of Kilkenny, it ought to he stated openly and fairly. He was E .:re that there were none of the authorities of th e city who would iustify the measure. He admitted that there was a necessity for some strong measure to preserv e the peace of the county, but that necessity did not extend to the city.—( Hear, hear.) The SOLICITOR GENERAL said the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had complained that the pro; amation was signed by such of tile Judges as were Privy Coun cillors. That complaint came with a very ill grace from tie Hon. and Learned Gentleman, who, among the amend ments he htd proposed, tad brought forward one, the object of which wa., that no proclamation should he issued that was not so signed--(Hear, hear)—and he especially recommended that the Judges of the Court of King's Bench should sign it—persons who, in his (the Solicitor- General's) opinion, were the lest fit to be SELMA from the other Judges of the land, inasmuch as, by their very office, they must necessarily be the persons before whom the offenders would come. 31r. HUME had never heard a more I ime excuse than had been made by Ministers for placing the county of the city of Kilkenny under Proclamation. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL maintained that the Government had acted in entire conformity with its pro visions. Mr. O'DWYER Contended that the city of Kilkenny was perfectly quiet, and ought to have been excepted from the operation of the proclamation._ Mr. SPRING RICE saw no objection to the first part of the Hon. Gentleman's motion for a copy of the Procla !nation. and for a return of the state of crime ; but to al beyond he inustmostdecidedly object. Mr. D W. HARVEY said that he had not heard a singbr argument from the opposite side of the House in justification of the course which had been adopted towards the city of Kilkenny, which would not equally justify the adoption of a similar course towards the whole of Ireland. The Right Hon. Gentleman's speech. was purely an expe rimental speech. The measure was given on the respon sibility of Ministers ; that responsibility was now fairly and publicly challenged, and Ministers were bound to produce the evidence, and to show the causes upon which they proceeded. Mr. S. RICE explained. Mr. W. ROCHE contended, on his own personal in formation, that tnere was no city in Ireland that had a fairer right to stand exempted from tlte operation of the present measure than the city of Kilkenny. He asserted, on his own responsibility, that that city was in a state of tranquillity. Mr. AGLIONBY expressed his surprise that the mo tion of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin should have met with the reception it had at the hands of the House ; and that his Majesty's Ministers should not have instantly conceded, as a matter of right, demands so rea sonable as those of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. It was the duty of Government to prove—the onus probandi entirely rested with them--'hit the city of Kilkenny was in such a state of disturbance as to require the enforcement of the Act that had been !ably passed. The question, at present. was not whether the Government were right or wrong in their proceedings, but whether the House had a ri4ht to call for the documents to which the motion before the House related. Sir S. WHALLEY said that his Majesty's Ministers were not cllleif upon to defend their conduct, but "to give to the House information on the necessity of proclaiming the city of Kilkenny. He, therefore, conjured Ministers, unless there were very great obs , acles to so doing, to pro duce the documents asked for by the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin. Lord SANDON said. that having consented to a de parture from the Constitution, he was willing to see it put into full execution. He thought that the onus pro bon& did not rest with Ministers ; hut that it rested with the opposite party to prove that there was no necessity for the enforcement of the present measure. He would heartily supp trt Ministers in the refusal tbey were then making to produce the doeumputs called for. Mr. O'CONNELL called to the recollection of Hon. Memhers. that on a former occasion he moved, that in a fortnight after the proclaiming of any district by the Lord Lieutenant—provided that that House was then sitting—evidence should be adduced, and reasons given, why that district had been proclaimed. He acknowledged that his motion was lost by a large m rjttrity. But the Ministers promised that, upon all occasions, they would instantly r oduced evidence, and give reasons for the pro claiming of any district. Had they kept their word? Their present conduct was the answer. As for the argu ment, that Kilkenny would be an asylum, or that any other district would bean asylum for the lawless, nothing could be more shallow—more unstatesmanlike. By none of_ the eauses of the Act was it provided that a place should he proclaimed because it was an asylum. It was enacted that a district should be proclaimed when it was found to be in a state of disturbance. But was the city of Kilkenny disturbed? It was not. The Proclamation was a lie! That Proclamation, si r .,ned by the Lord Lieutenant, the Chief Justice of the Common Pleas, and by the Irish Ei• Attorney-General, was a lie ! That it was a lie, had been that evening admitted by the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland, and by his Majesty's Attorney and Solicitor-Ge neral; and yet the Lord Lieutenant was allowed to pro claim a tranquil city—to deprive its peaceable inhabitants of the trial by jury—to suspend the Habeas Corpus Act —and to force them to remain within d ors between the hours of sun set and sun rise Hon. Members on the other side of th- House had unceasingly cried out about confidence in Ministers—that Ministers would well repay that confidence. This was the confidence which the Irish people were taught to look for from the Reformed House of Parliament. They talked about suppressing Whit , - feet, yet their Bill was the best calculated means of making Whiteteet. For instance, would the people of Kilkenny be more satisfied for their oppression ? Since the Mi nisters had only got this B II on the agreement that they would never do wrong witnout just cause, he now de manded, since they had done wrung, that they would show some reason for it. If Ministers refused this, the only just cause would be that they had none to give. The H..u.e then divided, when there appeAred For the motion Against it ll5 Majority -87 Mr. SPRING: RICE said be had a prop .sal to make, which he had little doubt would be acceded to by the House. It referred to the Customs Regulations' Bills, which were purely a consolidation of the existing Acts on that subject, containing no new Act whatever. He had to propose that these should be read for a second time to nivt, and postpone the committee on them till that day month, in order to give all parties the fullest opportu niiies of having the most accurate information as to the state of the existing law, and the contemplated alterations. He should therefore move .hat these Bills be now read for the second time, and committed on that day month. The questi..n being put, . _ Mr. YOUNG strongly objected to getting all at once at such an imprtant stage in these all-important Bills, which had been only introduced that day. The explana tion given by the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland had been so far satisfactory, but he still thought that it would be most advisable that the House should have timely and ex ict intimation of what these contemplated alterations were, so that they might not enter into committee blind fold, and without having had opportunities for due de ibe ration, as would be the case otherwise; for unless full un derstanding were kneantitne afforded on the point, they would go Iwo committee a month hence quite as wise as they were now. Mr. HUME fully concurred in this opinion. Mr. SPRING RICE quite agreed that the House might not to go blindfold into committee on any subject. He was sure that it could not be said that Ministers de vised to take the House by surprise. He, however, thought that, by his plan, every Member would have the best means of understanding what the law is, as it at pre sent standp, and precisely what the contemplated altera- tions were. Mr. YOUNG strongly insisted upon the necessity there the. e was for promulgating the fullest and most timely in formation. There were points in the Bills which had reference to parties in distant parts of iho country. After a few words from Mr. EWART, the Bills—the British Possessions' Bill, the Registry of Vessels' Bill, the Customs Duties' Bill, the Customs Management Bill, the Isle of Man Trade Bill, the Warehousing, the Smuggling Prevention, the Navigation, and other Bills—were read a second time, and committed. On the Game Bill being read a second time, Mr. LENNARD made a few observations, to explain that all he intended by this was, to restore the Game Act to what it was before. Mr. FYSHE PALMER thought the Aet had not been in force a sufficient time to give it a lair trial, and he de clared that he would divide the House on the motion. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL was in favour of the Bill. Colonel WOOD opposed the motion. Mr. H. ROSS moved that the Bill be read a second time that day six months. After a few observations by Mr. LAMB, the House divided on the amendment— Ayes 43 Noes 2g Majority —l4 The Bill was tneretore lost for the present Session. The other orders of the day we: e then disposed of, and the House adjourned at Half past One. LIST OF Tti OF THIRTY (TELLERS INCLUDED) MOTION, Copy of any Despatch or Lc of Ireland, or his Secretary, stat the County of the City of Kilkei dination and Disturbance, pursi liam IV., c. 4." ENGLAND. A glionby, A. — Cockermouth Attwood, Thos.—Birmingham Blackstone, W. S.—Wallington' lilamire' \V.—East Cu m b er li mo Ewart, W.—Liverpool Harvey, I). W.—Colchester Jervis, J.—Chester Parrott, J.—Totness Mark -5 1anchester ltoebuck,J. A.—. Bath Thicknesse, R.—Wigan Tullamore, Lord—Penryn Warburton, fl.-13ridport Wason, 1(.--Ipswich Whalley, Sir S.—Marylebone B MINORITY WHO VOTED FOR MR. O'CONNELL'S 1, FOR A otter from the Lord Lieutenant ting the reasons for proclaiming !nny to be in a State of Insubor maut to the Act of the 3d \VII- IRELAND. E'itzsimon, N.—King's County Lynch, A. H.—Galway 51'Laughlin, L.—Galway J'Connell, Maurice—Tralee O'Connell, C.—Kerry Co. O'Connell, John—YOughall O'Connell, Morgan—Meath O'Dwyer, A. C.—Drogheda Roche, William—Lnnerick Ruthven, K S.—Dublin Ruthven, Eel—Kildare Sullixan, Richard—Kilkenny TELLERS. Hume, J.—Middlesex O'Connell, Daniel—Dublin LIVERPOOL COTTON -MARKET, APRIL 16. sales of cotton to-day are 1,200 bales, of which shout 1.000 are in American de , criptions, from 61d. to Bd., and 200 Surats, at 44d. to I. Earl CARNARVON, %%hose death was an flounced yesterday, was formerly a Whig, hut ou the in troduction of the Reform Bill into Parliament, he became a Conservative, and one of the most inveterate opponents of his former party. rfir,,!7_4 LONDON, THURSDAY EVENING, APRIL 18, 1833. The report that Lord PALMERSTON is to go to India as Governor-General, to replace Lord W. BENTINCK, gains ground. The notices of motions which stand on the Commons paper for to night afford a curious illustration of the difference of character in the several parties in the House. There s one Ministerial notice, four Radical no• tices, one Whig-Radical notice, and one Conservative. The Ministerial notice is Lord ALTHORP'S, for leave to bring in a Bill ,o commute tithes. What will be the na- .ure of this Bill we will not pretend to know. [f it be in principle and detail, in con- formity with the plan opened by Mr. STANLEY towards the close of last Session, and be intended both for England and Ireland, it will give universal satisfaction as a wise and salutary measure ; but if it fall short of the plan stated by Mr. STANLEY, or be not intended equally for every part of the kingdom in which it may be applicable, it will afford another melancholy proof either of the disinclination or incapacity of the Administration, to take those enlarged and statesmanlike views of great questions, which the circumstances of the time require. Of the radical notices, as we have called them, two are by HUME. The first is for a resolution to pre vent the filling up of sinecure offices, or offices executed by deputy, when they fall vacant, and the second is for a resolution to prevent the filling up of any office whatever; except upon the understanding that the party accepting them shall have no claim for compensation for any deductions from, or alterations in their salaries and emoluments. Perhaps there may be plausible reasons alleged against the first of these proposi tions, but what argument can be urged in oppo: sition to the last we are at a loss to imagine. We should, therefore, at once conclude that it would be acceded to, were it not for the unfortunate propensity men seem to acquire when they reach the Treasury Bench, of running their heads against stone walls. The other two radical notices are by Mr. BUCKINGHAM, for a Committee to take into consideration the propriety of erecting a new House of Corn mons, and to appoint a Select Committee to take into consideration the justice and practicability of progressively abolishing all the assessed taxes, stamp duties, and duties of customs and excise, and commuting each tax or duty so taken ofi into one single tax on income, di s ti ngu i s hi ng between income derivable from precarious sources, and income derivable from landed pro perty in houses, lands, and funds, so as to tax the former at a less rate than the latter, gradu ating the scale of per tentage on the income 0: each class in such a manner as to lighten the 1101 burthen on the poor, make it mo derate ° n o middle classes, and augme nt the demand 011 0 whose superior wealth will enable thetn te so tribute most largely to the revenue of the y with the least sacrifice to their private coal,k, With respect to the first of these motions/i', cannot be a doubt that there are reasons; make it desirable that a new House of CeS i q eans a should be built, but we by no m n object one of a very pressing nature...i, second-mentioned motion i s one of dogs; importance ; but, after the fate of Mr. i soN's motion to consider o f the prorietled property tax, we have little hop e success. The mere agitation of the 9 0r r ? however, must be useful, and win joi i the o f the people to such a se nse tice of the present system of taxatni will at last force a change. The o ther 7 0 are, Mr. HILL'S upon the o ld subject "'il Baron de BoDE's claims, an d the MOP CHANDos's,—upon what do our ement en ° f think ?-0n the state and ma na g shops! Lord CHANDOS is no t the lleo' servative who would wish to dive rt the sit, d , of the count r y from its grea t interests r , question of the difference b e tween a 13bc tis , man drinkin a of of beer in a public .° a beer shop. B ut all the friend s of the 0 have to do, is to persist in their efforts i l e d cheap bread, the freedom of labou r, the i r • of trade, and the equalization of the ts's es ' Aar' It will be seen by our Parliamentalles7o of last night that much important husli'lyli forwarded. The Savings' Bank It n a l l i s ot was read a second time, the Custo ms read a second time, but with the un cle that Ministers should lay the el te ' lt iruse tended to be m a d e i n them, before t heil ;s good time before their committal, a nd BERT GRANT'S resolution, in favour of th e emanc ip a tion of the Je ws , jtl carried almost by acc l ama tion. S ir —° f° INGLIS, the Member f o r the Univers"7:,opi ford, discharged his official duty as the of intolerance in a long and so of speech. The fault is not his, but ti ll° o6o cause he has to advocate. We sup principal strengths andtruggle, sp(iirfitstheenoCugoilisetrvoaw".3l,4: 010 still 1 owtillerbetoopniesthoefsedceobnadterewaedrie of reading of the j 31 1 ,1. bill h interes" the n have not space to do more than refe r t°.. .1: do om The currency doctors, as they are called by the supporters o f Mr. 13 ° 11 6 0 are making stren uous efforts to indu ce 'f o r vernment to concur in their s cheme s or t alteration in the currency ; and if t he r ti e o P t circulation be well f oun d e d, they li ve t - „ altogether unsuccessf u l, a lthough the r h d e ril is contemplated by Ministers differseonrsibsi from that whi c h th e y are desirous t° adopted. 17 wit l h t in is the sa la id s , t f a e n w d da w y e s b a el e ie o v r e a : t o in r i r c e s c o l e v . Y , been made by some of the letniti,i 1 rency " agitators," stating that it vn l. contemplation of Ministers, to prol °se , e measure for a limit e d issue of paper atd under the immediate guarantee and c ° " 0 1 ( 1 the Bank of England ; and that it l ' e e r prudent at least in the advocates of 3 P 3, 11 00 rency, to see how this new plan sho al the 0 before they attempted to destroy a ll 0 financial and m e r ca ntil e re lations ' II % i PEEL'S Bill had produced in this cou n i f i jio t,' This communication, however, w ill ov ii`c i seems, deter Mr. MATTHIAS ATl°uiriii making his promis e d moti on for an illg v ielL, the distress of the cou n t r y, with a o s v' ascertain how much of th a t distres s 11 fir y 1. i caused by the alteration of the curre°% be ..jr ° , not been idle during the recess, A n "g e ttg o boasts of having a list of about 2 ° ° 0 00 ~ of the House of Commons, who s t iv e i sre iit ' : less pledged to support him. The 1 ";,d CHANDOS and his party have sig ni ne v, 19 0 intention of voting with Mr. Ail li- i c ire, disguising, we believe, their hope of rea ge d• means of embarrassing Ministers; - ve ri bl i THAMAS ATTWOOD, although O P ' bet, LI ( ferent motives, will vote with his b r of ,i . use all his endeavours to induce others tb..4"„ ultra Liberal party to join him. I " 3°l bie l _,, e r l of the ultr a 'Lib e r a l p ar ty w ho bl 3 corm supported Mr. T. A TTWOO D On t be deo! j question is Mr. O'CONNELL, Wi l° hgiS cl 4l :o in. the belief th a t a c h ange of cur rel fi - T og A ... throw capital into Ireland, a nd by re l lo o o , o distress restore tranquillity. Withn ut or oog o r whether Mr. O'CONNELL is right °t it, ls p, the conclusion to which he has CO ale h ' e grO li i4 f 1 an act of justice to him to say, t 11 .4 , 8 " - Tif 11 „ 0 0 on which he gives his support to:Nitt. big "o ATTWOOD is highly honourable ° . t herk character. If Mr. O'CONNELL w er rbi g . tical fiend, which he is said by Sore 9 4 4 s olf . oi l ' ponents to be, he would not en ° , his o d 'in is. measure, the effect of which woultb A Ir e o o mind, be to tranquillize and e twet 1 els- r 0 Of t n . 0 1P prosperous. The greater the distrei die o 6 )/ re i the greater would be the prospect 13 * f„,, ei and of that political separation jr i e yotO o n s Britain, which would lead to th e e re ir Mr. O'CONNELL as Dictator, or Sci ve 1 tar h his native country. Such is the feeling among the indePel::;)l, Members of the House of Cornin°ns'.°9lo importance of instituting an inquiry hi t° I .ol j selves of the country, without pledgilocill f to any abstract notions of the 1 sue: al 1 r a change of the currency; and tit"' same time, the desire of others for an a tte o l in the monetary system, by whic ' • rents '' be raised, and their incomes doubled, °girt little more caution had been used, Mr' o i o THIAS ATTWOOD miht have been e ert , 1 0 g / carrying his motion agains t Ministers. urPl,llO, Marquis of CHANDOS and the O re who vote with him, have unintentionabo IIY OI O dered Ministers an essential service, by of their strength on this occasion, and ° probability of turning out .Ministers "to A TT WOOD's motion. As notvrithstan tif the blunders of the Whigs, and their re Oil' AT ON" O'CLOCK. PRICE. OF STOCKS Tills Rank Stock 3 per Cent. Reti •''4A 3 ;ler Cent Con& 874 1 .4% 3% per Cent. 93.4 Ditto Rol 93 %% Newl34 per Cent. ( )44 3 4 % 3 per Cent, Ann. 172 ,, - 4 per Cent. 19213 100% 101 1 Bank Long Ann to expire Jan. 16 1 - 18 0 % 1- Oct. 1n, 5, IRYI 16 M16 Jan. 5, 1860...... 17 15 15-16 Jan. 5, 1860 Aprils, 1880 Jan. 5, NT, PRICES OF FOREIGN Furtros Austrian Bonds ' cifi% Belgian Bonds Ditto Account...B7% 8 71; 8 Brazilian Ponds 5974 Ditto Account 59% Buenos Ayres Bonds 25 Ditto Account Chilian Bonds 2141 Ditto Account 22 Columbian Ronda Ditto Account Ditto Bonds, 1924 18 17% . Ditto Account Danish Bonds - 2% Ditto Account Greek Bonds. 34% Ditto Bonds, !f325 '37 6% Ditto Account — Mexican Bonds, 5 per cent 3l Ditto Account .31W Ditto, 6 per cent.. Ditto Account 37 Nea po I Rm.—. .......... Slew 5 per Cont. India Stock Ditto Bonds 2B 26 pm. South Sea Stock 97% Old Annuities 'New Ditto 3 per Cent. Ann. 1751 Ex. Bills, X 1,000...... 49 X 50 .>in. Ditto Yr 49 50 om. Ditto Small Ditto C0mmercia1....... .. I Ditto Advertised — pm. I Bank for Account India for Account Cons rnr April 12 5714,4% THIS DAY AT ONE O ' CLOCK 'Peruvian Bonds I6N Portuguese Bonds _ _ Ditto Account 50% Regency Scrip 5% 6 dis. Ditto Account 578 6 dis. Prussian Bonds lOl4. Ditto Bonds, 1822 lO3 Russian Bonds, 1822 1 0 2 1,i Ditto Account New Loan 97% Spanish Bonds, 1821 19 , i % Ditto Account 19% %% , 4; Ditto Bonds, 1 , a3 1 6 1,4 Ditto Account French Rentes, 5 p. c. 101 f 50c. Exchange 2sf 80c . —3 per cent. —f —c. -• Exchange..., —f —c. Dutch, 2i p. c 45 % 1 4 Ditto Account 45% 3 .4 Ditto, 5 p. c ,1 4 ,4 Ditto Account 844 4%Tii French Scrip 45,; pm. ?RIDES OF SHAKES THIS DAT AT ONX O'CLOCK. Paid. _ Per Share. Anglo Mex. Min. Co. (iss. at 5/. pm.) £lOO 12% Bolanos Mining Company .......» £l5O 130 Brazilian Imp. Min. Co. (lu. at 51. pm.) £2O 60 , ,i Ditto National 17% 23 Ditto St. John Del Rey Ditto Cocaes. British Iron Mining Company £sl) Columbian Mining Co. (iss. at 5/. pm.) 50% English Mining Company 12% General Mining Association l2 Mexican Mining Co. £46 Real del Monte .Mining ( '0...., -.... Tlalpuxahua Mining Co 330 - United Mex. Min. Co. (iss. at 2/. pm.) 40 1314 % Ditto New Sei ip 5 17 %;4 Alliance Fire Insurance Comp lO 1034 Protector Insurance Comp. Australian Co Canada Company General Steam Navigation Co. l3 Provincial Bank of Ireland 25 158. 20% 9!4 27% 8% 71,4 11 12 29 PRICES OF IRISH STOCKS, DUBLIN, APRIL 15. Blnk Stock 200% ISt. Patrick I nsur.(petShare) Consols, 3 Der cent Gov. Stock, 34 per cent. 934 ' National Ditto 25 Ditto, New 934 Patriotic Ditto I per Cent. — Hibernian Bank Gov. Deb. 3l percent.... 87% ;Provincial Ditto 3O Royal Canal Stock — Royal Irish Mine — Grand Canal Stock — ' Imperial Mine — City Deb. 4 per cent 'B' ' ".. " fir., net,. 4 n. , ........ p,rtial %inclines FRENCH FUNDS, PARIS, APRIL 15.-Five per Cents., lOnf. unc. 95c. 90c ; Four and a Half per Cents., 99f. 50c. ; Four per Cents., 92f. 50c.; Three per Cents., 76f 85c. 77f. 20c.; National Loan, 100 f. 95c. 90c ; Bank Shares, 17101 FRENCH FUNDS, PARIS, APRIL 16. -Five per Cents., 10If 100 f. 95c. 101 f. IcOf 95c. Inlf. 100 f. 95c. 101 f 100 f. 95e. 101 f. 101 E sc. 101 f. 10If. sc. 101 f.; Four and a Half per Cents., 99f. 50c. ; Four per Cents., 92f 69c. 50c. ; Three per Cents., 77f 15c. 30c. 25c. 35c. 45c ; Bank Actions, 1,710 f.; Rente de Naples, 91f. 10c. 30c. 25c :30c. 25c. 91f 45c. 35c. ; Roman Five per Cents., 89 ; Rented'Esplgne, Five per Cents., 16,4 % (4; Rente d'Espagne, Three per Cents., 431 % %3¢ % l 4336 ; Royal Spanish Loan, 801 i ; Rente Perpetuelle d'Espagne, Five per Cents., 74 7414 74 74,43¢ % ; Belgian Loan, 87;4 ; Haytian Loan, 225 f. •227 f. 5Pc. 230 f. Exchange on London, one month, money, 25f. 75c. ; three months, money, 25f. 65c.-Couis Authen tique. HAILS. Arrived. Due. Arrived. Due. 0 America 0 0 Hamburg 0 0 Brazil 0 Buenos Ayres 0 0 Jamaica. 0 0 Carthagena 0 0 Leeward Islands ... 0 1 Dublin 0 0 Lisbon 2 1 Flanders 0 u Matta 0 I France • 0 0 Sweden 1 k;u , Ynsr. ~, ersev. 0 I Watnrfewrl HitTh ATEK AT 1,01,10 N etitli+liE , Auxecow. Nforning ...44 minutes after 1. I Evening... 5 rivnutes after 2, RESIDENCE OF THE NOBILITY. THE COURT JOURNAL of SATUR DAY, April 20, will cot,tain a full description of the Interior of the Two Residence of the Duke of Su therland, at St. Jimes's—Sketches of the Female Nobility —The Countess of Duc D'Orleans— App-oachisig Alliance iu Fashionable Life—Miss Strachan —Chesterfield in Londini, No. 3—Bows, Curtseys, arid Salutations—Fashionable Lite in Calcutta, Collinet, and Nacdin. AN EXTRA HALF SHEET will also be presvnt-d, in order to give 3 follile.cripeon of HER MAJESTY'S DRAWING ROOM, with a ci.mplete list of the Presentations, Ladies' Dresses, &c. Published for H. Colhurn, by W. Thomas, at the Office, 19, Catherine•street, Strand, and supplied by all Book sellers and Newsmen, Postage Fr,. k I II ( ' I I tl ul 11 /it tit c e i l Plot (;, 4 1; ‘ , 4 Fi 13,t th: t ' F, (1 0 , ud,