The Sun. — London, England, 1830-03-26 00:00:00

000 000 000 000 800 800 off such others. be made lad been to the 3d upon raised. /need to herefore iportant meant ring the axation, In of all 12,000/. 1,000/. ; ; upon 19,000/. n these, •evenue, :ountry. ore true. )ughout it is the Ll at idl— es made w com- tt usted.that:they should not see the interests of this coun t's' sacrificed to the miser able idea of keeping up a con nectitin with Portugal. We ought to take from other countries their produce, and whether they would or not, they, would be. compelled to give us their markets.— (Hear, hear.) He would now come to another —Tobacco—which entered so materially into the comforts of the lower classes. Hon. Gentlemen who heard-him might consider it a dirty thing, but with the lower classes, it was unquestionably conducive to their corn fartes and, he believed, to their health. His principle for which he was contending was practically shown by the trade in this article. In 1795, when the duty was only le. 3d., the consumption was 10,972,000 lbs. The duty was afterwards raised to 2s. 2d., and the consumption kept at its former rate, or, at least, it amounted to 15,000,000 lbs. Afterwards,the duty was doubled, and in 1824 the consumption was, 13,000,0001b5., and the revenue wa52,600,000/., although, as the duty had been doubled, it ought to have produced 3,000,0001. and up wards' In 1825 the duty was reduced to 38., and what followed? Did the revenue fall off—did consumption not increase? The consumption increased to 14,705,00011)s., and the revenue to 2,230,0001. As the duty had been reduced one-fifth, the falling off in the revenue should have been 65 6,000/. The case of Ireland was infinitely more strong. In Ireland, from 1791 , to 1797, when the duty was Bd. the consumption was 7,500,00011n5. The duty was raised to 45., and the consumption diminished to 1 , 5 82,00011 s., or little more than one-fifth. The duty had been raised GOO per cent., and instead of producing a revenue of 1,290,000/., it amounted to only 516,000/. The duty had been lowered in 1825, and the consumption Was nearly doubled. Other circumstances were undoubt edly to be taken into consideration, for tobacco was an ar ticle easily to be smuggled, and he would propose to levy a duty of 200 per cent. ; but if they subjected the article to 900 per cent., it afforded the utmost facility and temptation to smuggling. If Ireland consumed 7,000,0001b5. in 1791, with a populatio n of 3,000,000 of souls, and now, with her population of seven or eight millions, she consumed only 4,000,000 lbs., the disproportion was absurd. By accounts that had been laid before the Committee of ReVenue, it had been made to appear that smuggling in this inrticle, in England, Ireland, and Scotland, had been carried on to the greatest possible extent. The number of vessel, that left Flanders and Ostend carried tobacco, and no vessel that left the ports of that country was with out some on hoard. About 3,640,000 lbs. had been smuggled into Ireland in one year between Waterford and the Giant's Causeway. He knew that in Scotland the smuggling was carrried on to a great extent ; but he was not able to state to what extent it was carried on in Eng la"d• The only means of meeting the evil was to reduce the rate of duty to such an amount as to take away the high inducement to illicit traffic. Reduce the duty, he should say, to Is. or is. 6d., and by which as great a revenue would be raised as at present. Tine next article he should come to was foreign spirits, and the proportions between consumpt i on and n taxation would confirm his principle. He would now take a stronger case, and one which afforded a happy illustration of the principle for which he would contend, namely—that a judicious reduc- tion of duties frequently brought a large increase of revenue. From 1822 to 1825, the consumption of ruin was 2,757,000 gallons, the duty en which was 1,541,0001. ; when the duty was decreased one-half, the consumption came within 3,000 gallons of what it was before—that is, what it was when the duty was double. He was aware an answer might be at tempted to this, by saying that the impediments thrown in the way of the use of foreign spirits gave an undue and usual encouragement to the use of rum. What, how ever, was the fact ? Precisely that which left such an argument without the slightest foundation. The case of English, scotch, and Irish spirits was precisely similar.— In 1821 the Scotch amounted to 2,200,000 gallons, then the duty was Si. 6(1., the gross revenue 727,000/. ; when the duty was reduced to 25., the consumption 5,710,000 gallons, the gross revenue 809,000/. In Ireland, at the same period, the consumption was 2,649,000 gallons, the revenue 912,000/.-80,000/, more than when the duty was h . gher ; again, when the revenue was lowered fur ther, the duty amounted to 1,395,000/. Possibly his argument for the reduction of duty might be met by an asserti(ll that cheap spirits tended to inunorality—he be lieved, and he was sure that facts supported him in that belief, that no efforts of any Legislature could put down altogether the use of ardent spirits —at least that high duties could not do it. In 1743 or 1745, the Girt Act was passed, and the heaviest penalties were imposed upon the dealers in that article ; yet in defiance of that enact silent, 6,000,000 of gallons were sold in London of the forbidden liquor. There were two articles more to which he should then advert—sugar and tea. Were the duty reduced upon those articles and upon tobacco, the re venue would lie equal to what it is at present; the growers, merchants, and consumers greatly benefitted, and the interests of the country and of morals much promoted by the suppression of smuggling. From the evidence of Mr. Geale before a Committee of that House, it appeared that the smuggling of those articles alone made the maintenance of the Preven tive Establishment necessary. He need scarcely urge upo n the consideration of the House the great ad vantages that would result to the country from getting rid of the whole of that system and of the demoralising practices of which it was the unavoidable consequence. It was well known that all along the coast smuggling prevailed to a fearful extent ; it was equally certain that it arose from the causes he had stated ; and the establishments necessary for checking it, which they did but imperfectly, were scarcely less an evil than the offence itself: On the subject of sugar he should say but little—he should not repeat the truisms that might be urged in favour of a diminution of the duty on that ar tide. His Hon. Friend, the Member for Inverness, had, he thought, put the question in a very fain point of view. He was suit there was no independent or right thinking man who would deny that something ought to be done for our West Indian possession s ; and with regard to the produce of those colonies, he could as safely assert that a reduction of duty would lead to increased consumption and revenue, as ettrely as in the cave of any other article. The other article to which he should advert was tea. It might be supposed that no great change would take phase in the consumption of that article so long as the monopoly of the East India Company continued, and that reducing the duty would be but taking money from the State to put into the Pockets of the East India C ompany ; yet , upon o th er grounds he would contend that reduction was necessary, and must be attended with beneficial results. He al luded with gre a t p l easure to this subject, because it afforded another a n d stronger i llustration of the prin ciple for which h e was contending, that reduction of duty did not necessarily lead to diminution of revenue. In 1715 the consumption of tea was 750,000 pounds weight ; the amount of revenue arising from it 151,000/. When the (hay was lowered from 4s. to Is. the consumption in cireased to 2,000,000 lbs., and the revenue arising from the t A i i n i ty Ito. 243,000/. u By the celebrated Act introduced by I 6..00) pon that subject, the consumption was raised to s 0,00 n„ . o though th e d uty per poun d was only lowered one half. 26,000 , 0 00 lbs. It finally attained the height o f Perhaps it would be contended that there was little prospect of our being able to raise the con litiMption much above its present level. Supposing that i ncrease was likely to arise, which he was far from ad- Milting, still the diminished tax on that article would en able the consumer to indulge in other taxed articles, and indirectly leave the revenue in no worse situation than before.be H e wou ld conten d , h owever, for the probability an increased consumption; and he would maintain that at least this advantage would result from the change— namely, that in th e event of a reduced duty the public would have the enjoyment of a genuine article. This great advantage would ensue, that the adulteration of tea would be got rid of. In 1783 the quantity of adulterated tea in this country was not less than 4,000,000 pounds. • With that f act b efore them, he would leave the House to judge what the amount of adulteration was now. A foreign gentleman, with whom lie was acquainted, said I ha he n ever Raw in this country any thing that looked like he him it appeared to be nothing but sloe leaves. He should be the last in the world to interfere with the home manufacture—(A laugh)—but he thought that fit subject. for inquiry a duty which led to adulteration and fraud, was at least a before a Committee. He Legged the House to remember that he did not make any specific proposition to tine House on the subject of altering any particular to --all he moved for was a Committee of In riry: if expected, however, to state more particularly ei views, he should hive no hesitation in saying,. that in tobacco he thought fected ; in forei a. reduction of 1 s. 6d. might be ef t- of gn spirite 10s. ; in French wines a reduc ion one-half; and that most advant on sugar 20s. ; lie thought further, stamps general] Stain ageoes reductions might be made on Neeeon Sea Policies, on Fire Insurance, on stamp s on • • psi and on Advertisement Duties. The policies at the end of the war in 1815, or rather, to bring it quite clear of the war, he would say in I 8 j 6, at theytevaera, ou , . . In the last nted to 293,000/. The tonnage of British r, of inward s a n d outwards, was 4,489,000. which lie had r e t urns , th e revenue arising f rom stamp* on Sea pol icies amounted to 219,000/. Even th a t was no asmtrifling d i ff erence in the amount of du ties, but wh at was th e p Did Hon. Members suppose that not of to nnage , 5,154,00. ef fected to the ext ent of the d ff t,nces insurances s evere n h ot in,; they were effected, but in this ? no such t country. The exor bitant duty drove the kali-er g "' ln • s l i my, not only to the loss of ,the revenue, but to the injury of peraonf engaged in that department of trade. The persons desiring to effect those insurances went to the United States, to Holland, and to Germany. In the present state of commercial transaction', a quarter per cent. would lead any mercantile man from any one market to any other ; and he must take the liberty of telling his Ma jesty's Government, that if they persevered in that most pernicious tax, they would send all insurers across the water. Fire insurances presented another most striking instance. The common premium on Fire Insurances, with common risk, was Is. 6d. What was the duty paid to Government ?—no less than 3s. The insurers paid Is. 6d., and they paid double that sum for permission from the Government to effect their insurances. Could any man doubt, that, the effect of such a system must be to dis courage insurances—in very many instances to prevent them ? It might be pertixtly true, that a man having one house containing valuable furniture, might effect a policy upon that. But what would grub lily be the case—what was really the fact with respect to the insurers of farm buildings, numerous and remote? Just this—that they would rather abide the risk, than pay a treble insurance— two parts for permission to pay tie third—was any man capable of raising a question open the effect of a duty of 200 per cent. ? In the year 1816 the amount of revenue derived from insurances was 613,0001. ; in 1821, twelve years afterwards, the duty had only advanced 78,000/., the whole amount of that year being 691,0001., and that notwithstanding the immense increase of capital and pro perty of every sort during that period. If the duty on fire insurances were made half what it is at present, he had no doubt that the number of policies effect, d would mer e than double. He would now come to the last of the re ductions which lie had recommended.—(Hear.)—Upon that point he should go further than his Hon. Friend, by whom the subject had been mentioned. He would be for re ducing the stamp duty upon each copy of a newspaper to a penny, instead of two pence, as recommended, or instead of four pence, as paid at present. By such a change there could be no question that the revenue would be in creased, and the sale of newspapers prodigiously increased. He would beg of the House to allow him to institute a comparison between this and other countries, as respected newspapers. The inhabitants of the United Kingdom laid claim to great superiority of intelligence, and to a high literary character. Now let the state of the newspaper press show how the matter really stood. There were in it only 331 newspapers, of which number 20 were daily papers; three or four of those were published in Dublin, not one in Scotland, with all its high, and he would admit, well-founded claims to intelligence and literary pre-etni nence. The total consumption of newspapers annually in the United Kingdom was 27,827,000 copies —that with a population of 23,000,000 ; while the United States, with a population of 10,000,000, had 8,000 newspapers to contrast with our 334, and 50 of these publications were daily—the entire annual consumption there being 61 millions, and ours, as already stated, hieing about half that quantity,while our population was more than double, making the proportion, as respected newspapers, amount to some what less than five to one. France lead a daily circulation of 70,000, while the United Kingdom had but 36,000. In Paris there were four papers that circulated from 50,000 to 60,000 daily. Then there were the advertisements, upon which, whether they consisted of one line, or of any greater number, the duty was 3s. 6d. Now he desired the House to see the way in which that operated. There might be, for example, a daily newspaper, coming out with its double sheet, and on such an occasion, and confining his views to that solitary case, a superficial observer might suppose that no difficulties stood in the way of advertising. But how opposite to that was the fact ! He begged of the House to look at the United States. There was no duty upon advertisements there. The number of advertisements was 10,000,000; while in this country they amounted annually to 963,000—about one-tenth of Great Britain, with a po pulation of one-half. Would it be asserted that the people of this country were indisposed to advertise? Let the walls of this metropolis be looked at. Was not every one of them where it could be done, chalked and placarded. Could the House be persuaded that the people of England had no wish to advertise more extensively than at present? Those who have attended most to the subject of advertis ing, and to the duty on the papers, were universally of opinion that if the change he spoke of were made, the con sumption would be quintupled. A printed letter lead been addressed to the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) by the Editor of the Scotsman, which possibly he had not yet read, but which was well worthy of his attention, coining, as it did, from a gentleman of information, conducting an excellent Jour nal, and well acquainted with the particular matter upon which he addressed the Right Hon. Gentleman. The cal culation made in that letter was, that if the duty were re duced to the extent there specified, what was now sold for 7d., might then be had for lid. lii urging this upon the consideration of the House, he was not merely influ enced by a desire to relieve the country front need less taxation, and mischievous taxation ; but from that which impeded the dissemination of useful information. He was sure every Member of that House wished to pro mote the spread of useful knowledge, and here that could be effected at the same time that a burden was removed, without loss to the revenue.—(Hear, hear.)—He had now gone through the taxes, to which he desired to call the attention of the House, and he felt that in doing so, he bad been under the necessity of trespassing upon their attention at greater length, and more in detail than he was accustomed to do, for which he intreated their indulgence. —( Hear, hear.)—ln approaching the terminatien of his remarks, he might be allowed to hope, that whatever difference of opinion there might exist as to his earlier suggestions, there could not be much as respected his latter statements and proposals fur the reduction of taxation— which, he begged especially to observe, went in no case to a diminution of revenue. If by rates of duty no reduction of income arose to the State, while the comforts of the consumer were greatly augmented, he conceived that Par liament could not better discharge the important functions with which it was entrusted than in directing its best energies to the accomplishment of that object. Even at the worst, the course which he advocated could not be productive of more than temporary injury to the revenue; and if that opinion were founded in fact, lie could not con ceive how any Hon. Member could object to the principle upon which he proceeded. He was of course not aware of what course his Majesty's Government intended to pursue with respect to the motion he intended to conclude with ; but whatever they might do, he hoped they would consider him as not bringing forward the motion, in any unfriendly spirit. He assured them he brought forward his motion with the most amicable intentions. In proposing that those matters should, as in 1783, be considered by a Committee, and that some of those Reforms recommended by the Fi nance Committee should be carried into effect, he hoped lie should not be considered as expressing any want of confidence in the present Administration. What he wished to do was, by the appointment of a Committee, to impart to them an increased power of doing good, and of accomplishing that good upon a more extended scale. It was not to be expected that any Executive Government ' should be able of itself to accomplish such a reform ; but were a Committee to be appointed, the Government might easily come for any assistance which the recommendations of that Commitee might render necessary—even a vote of credit might be had under such circumstances, for the pur pose of enabling such an important and extensive experi ment to be fairly tried. He was persuaded that such a Committee as he looked for would impart to the Govern ment increased power, and obtain for it a much greater share than even it now possessed of the confidence of Parliament and the gratitude of the country. If sug gestions of the nature he had made received the sanc tion of a Committee of that House, it ams r obvious that Parliament could more readily give the-SUptanet required, than if Ministers endeavoured to accomplish those important changes upon their own responsibility.— Another circumstance not to be left out of view was, that in coining to the decision of questions of that nature many interests were to be considered ; and before a Committee all might be heard—information obtained from all quarters, and impartial investigations entered into wherever necessary. For such purposes he thought a Com mittee infinitely better suited than was an Administration, the Members of which had their various official duties to attend to. Whatever determination Government might arrive at, be hoped he !should receive credit for the tone and temper in which he had offered to the House and to them the suggestions which he felt it his duty to nuke, and diet they would take him for what he professed to be —one sincerely anxious to carry into effect a series of changes which he conscientiously believed would have the effects at one and the same time, of moving vexatious bur dens, and of maintaining the revenue at its present eleva tion. For the support to which he thought his motion en titled, he would appeal to those Hon. Members who voted for the motion of the Hon. Baronet below him. He would call upon all who had demanded relief to come forward and support him, for there was an opportunity in which effec-• tual and substantial relief might be afforded.—(Hear, hear.)—lle would appeal to all those who had not sup ported the motion of the Hon. Baronet on account of its being vague and indefinite—here he presented them with a definite proposition—here a specific object was placed before them, capable, if carried into effect, of pre serving the present amount of income, and of af fording at the same time that relief to the people which all agreed in acknowledging that they re quired, He called for support upon all who had orecnted and advocated the prayer of prtitinns complain. ng of the general distress. Ile cilium! Cu them for the .upport which, in common consistency,' they were bound 'o afford. He called upon every Hon. Membcr in that House to say how he could meet his constituents• if he re• fused to vote for inquiry upon on occasion like that. In piry could be productive of no imaginable harm, and it might lead to important good. On time one band, if mhe House agreed to inquiry,. they would show the people that they were anxious to do all that could ha done for the pur pwe of affording relief, and of giving them time necessaries aid comforts of life at a lower rate than that at which they hail been for many years enjoyed. On the other hand, if they refused inquiry—if they refused to lessen the burdens of the people—if they refused to place the finances of the country upon a better system than that upon which, for years, they hail stood, it would be an acknowledgement that Parliament was unfit for the high functions allotted to it by tilt. Constitution—that it abdicated its powers, and s'amped its own incompetency. For these reasons, then, he should move " That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the expediency of making a revision of the taxes ; so that the means Of paying the sums voted by the [louse, and all other charges for the public service, may be provided with as little injury as possible to the industry and improvennt of the country." Colonel I)AVIES (as we understood,) seconded the motion. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—AI though I concur in a great portion of what has been ad vanced by the Ho❑ Gent.—although it is impossible not to concur in the great principle laid down by his motion, that it is expedient that the charge upon the public should press as little as possible upon, and do the least practicable injury to the interests of the people and the advancement of industry—l say, that notwithstanding my concurrence in part of the motion, and in many of the sentiments ex pressed by the Hon. Member, yet I feel it as an imperative duty to oppose his motion. In doing so, I assure him that I am influenced by no motive of disrespect toward him, nor by any indisposition to return the kind feelings with which he has expressed himself towards my colleagues and myself. I feel, Sir, that if I acceded to the motion of the Hon. Gent., I should neither consult the interests of the country. nor the character of the Government. I need not repeat that the great principle asserted by the motion is self-evi dent—namely, that it is the duty of Government and of Parliament to do all that is practicable to raise the taxes with as little injury to the interests of industry as the ne cessities of the State will permit, and with as little obstruc• tion to national improvement as is consistent with the real purposes of taxation. I am as willing as any man to admit that it is the duty of his Majesty's Government to look as minutely as possible into every branch of the public income, both with the view of directly relieving the country front the load under which it labours, and by varying the points front time to time on which that load presses, to afford relief in another form. The House must also remember, that many of these taxes were raised at different periods, when the Ministers were driven to them, and bad no choice. They had, therefore, been ra ther adopted for the sake of revenue than of anything else. But there is a still further consideration for us, be fore we decide on their repeal, which is, that though they were only raised for temporary objects, they are now mortgaged to the public creditor, and in meddling with them, we must take care that we do nothing to diminish the value cf their claims, or to shake the national credit. The difficulty that there is on the subject is one that has arisen in some measure frein the number of the various branches of trade, influenced by taxation, and the va rious periods of their duration. But while I state this, I am anxious not to have the House for a moment to entertain a doubt, that the Government had considered it to be its imperative duty to consider• this subject, and to exercise that office, which is peculiarly its own, but which the Honourable Gentleman appears to be desir ous to impose upon a Committee of this House. I shall, therefore, altogether resist his motion, because I believe that it must prove inconvenient to the public interests to have all those topics to which the Honourable Gentle man has alluded, throw❑ into a Committee, and because, to call on them to pronounce on a large mass of taxa tion must prove injurious to the best interests of the country. Such a step must prove so front the very na ture of the subject, and still more from the course which the Hon. Gentleman proposes to pursue. The Hon. Gentleman has told us, that by appointing this Committee we shall have the advantage of being able to call before us a number of persons connected with the different trades on which the taxes are most objectionable and oppressive ; and that by this means we shall he able to enter into an inquiry as to the possibility of removing the taxes on coals, glass, paper, printed goods, tobacco, brandy, sugar, anti other commodities. But if this is to be the case, can any one doubt what would be the effect of such a course of proceed ' ing ? Can any thing be suggested calculated to produce greater anxiety and doubt ? Is there a trade that would not instantly be thrown into a state of stagnation ?—(Hear, hear. ).—But this will not be all. While these will be expos ed, from their fears of what may be the recommendations of the Committee, to certain loss, others speculating what may be the arrangements will endeavour to make profit of their guesses, the end of which to many will be destruction and ruin, besides which it will become the object of those interested not to state the truth, but to represent it as may best suit their own interests.—(Hear, hear. )—These are some of the evils which I foresee would inevitably arise front the appointment of such a Committee; and I think that I ant justified in my conclusion when we recollect how anxious persons appear to be to get at the pre liminary knowledge of Government, and how frequently questions in this House are put to obtain an inkling of what are the intentions of the Ministry. Let us look only at the present Session, and remember how frequently questions were put to me for the purpose of obtaining a clew as to what I intended to propose with respect to tax ation. The Hon. Member for Cambridge, and my Hon. Friend the Menthe'. for Stafford, over and over again assured us that the malt trade was at a stand, and the beer no better, till the intentions of Government were made known. If all these consequences arise from the silence only of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, how much more is to be expected from the operations of a Committee, the proceedings of which are much more easily got at, and much more open to conjecture?—(Hear, hear.)—Other difficulties also present themselves to my mind. The H on. Gentleman has told us of the taxes which he proposes either to modify or to repeal ; but he has not sufficiently indicated the course by which he proposes to supply the deficiency. The Hon. Gentleman has very ingeniously argued from a number of documents, that in the repeal or modification of many of the taxes there will be no danger; and that, by diminishing the duty, we shall so far increase the consumption of many articles as to fully compensate any lowering of the tax.—(Hear, hear, from Mr. P. Thompson.)—But we are to consider that in taking such a step, we are dealing with an income of sixteen millions; and that, therefore, to say the least of it, what the Hon. Gentleman proposes is a very hazardous experiment—and before I consent to any such measures, I must have before me very sufficient documents to show me how the de ficiency is to be made up. We have heard from the lion. Gent. that he proposes that a portion of this deficiency shall be made up by a tax on the conveyance of property ;almt according to his own showing, this is not to produce a million and a half, while the repeal is to extend to 2,626,0001. Certainly I must say that I am not very much enamoured of this mode of proceeding. But ir, another part of his proposal, I find a yet more ebjec tionable course. He proposes the repeal of a !arge and substantial portion of the revenue of the country, which is specifically applied to a fund, from which the debt of the country is to be paid, and to supply the defi ciency (till it shall cease) by an annual vote of credit. To this proposition I must say that I listened with surprise, astonishment, and deep regret, after• the declaration that has been made, that money ought not to be borrowed in a time of peace, so as to augment the debt. The Hon. Gent, however, recommends that we should resort to this proceeding, and for a temporary object only add to the debt, which already burthens the country. But if the Committee is appointed, will the Hon. Gent. guarantee that this is the only one that shall be held to be temporary ? Will he guarantee th t others shall not appear to be equally capable of reduction? Fur I fear that if we once give our consent to the principle of affording present relief from as immediate pressure by a vote of credit, we shall find that that mode will not be confined to the present period, but become the habitual resource of the country. But there is another point of view at which we are bound to look. I ask, Sir, whether there is, or whether• there has been, anything in the conduct of Government which requires that the duty which has always devolved upon them should be taken out of their hands and imposed upon a Committee of this House.—( Hear, hear.)—Have they betrayed any indisposition to consider the feelings and interests of the people, in what they have lately done in the way of remis sion of taxation ? Have they shown any indisposition to select those taxes for removal which appeared to bear hardest upon that portion of the people wh ch is suffering most at the present time?—(Hear, hear.)—On the contrary, have they not rather been forward to begin this course, which the Honourable Gentleman would have us accomplish at once, but which can only he safely touched upon by stlecting those taxes which, from their circumstances, appear to be most prominently marked for reduction? So far from having been remiss on this point, we have been taxed with having gone beyond the limits of sound discretion—with having hazarded the revenue of the counlry, and having diminished those re•- sources on which we have to depend for the reduction of the debt. To this chirge I plead not guilty ; nor do I confine myself to pleading only, for it admits of proof that we have not been neglectful of our duty; and if we have not gone to the full extent of what the Hon. Gentleman has this night proposed, it has been because we could not, consistently with the sentiments of the country, go further.—(Bear, hear, hear.)—l have already stated to this House in the co:n•se of the present Session, that the Government took it into their consideration, how far, by new imposts, it would be _ possible to relieve the public from many of the taxes under which they are now labouring. Having given their best consideration to all the bearings of the subject, they determined to pur sue that course which, a few nights ago, I •V ad the honour to state to the House. All that I have since heard upon the subject has confirmed ine in the opinion, that what I then proposed was the best and most prudent course to be adopt ed ; with which we are to take the consideration, that Go vernment has not by this step endangered any future expe riment of that principle which all Governments ought to have in view, for the purpose of extending further relief. Feeling that we have not neglected our duty as Members of his Majesty's Government, nor the charge which devolves upon us, of considering from time to time, the revision of the taxes of the country—l for one cannot consent to abandon what I considered to be my duty, nor concur in the motion of the Honourable Gentleman for a Com mittee. The Honourable Gentleman, in the course of his speech, has attempted to show that the plan which he proposes was recommended in former times by Mr. Pitt. No one can think higher of Mr. Pitt as a most able and experienced financier than I do ; but I am sure that I do not know to what part of Mr. Pitt's conduct the Hon. Gentleman allude. It is true th it Mr. Pitt did, in the first period of a cessation of pressure, take an opportunity of making a commutation of some taxes for others ; but did he by so doing endanger the whole revenue of the country? Did he take off at one sweep an enormous por tion of that revenue, and trust to chance to replace it ? The course that Mr. Pitt adopted was just the reverse, for he first raised the taxes so as to establish the credit of the country, and the❑ afforded relief to those who were most labouring under -presiure. Sir, I shall forbear entering upon any of those details to which the Honourable Gentle man has adverted, for to go through them would occupy more of the time of the House than I could reasonably ex pect to engross. With respect to the Stamp Duties, I have already stated that it is my intention to propose a modification of them in the course of the present Session, and it will then he in the power of the Hon. Gentleman, or of any other Hon. Member, to bring forward any mo tion on the subject. With regard to the Hon. Gentleman's objection to the Excise, it is not necessary that I should contest the point with him. Of the inconveniences which attend the mode of collecting it, I am fully sensible ; but great as those inconveniences are, it is our paramount duty to be most cautious in meddling with the subject. For these reasons I feel it to he my duty to oppose the Hon. Gentleman's motion for a Committee.—(Hear.) Mr. BANKES declared his intention of supporting this motion for a committee, as he was anxious to open the whole subject of the taxation of the country. The taxation of the country was the main cause of its distress, and he differed front many of the positions laid down by the Hen. Member for Dover. The Right Hon. Gent. had admitted that a commutation of taxes had been at one time under the consideration of his Majesty's Government. He was sorry that, as such had been the case, that commuta tion had not been adopted. He thought that there was no better mode of relieving the distress of the country than by commuting the taxes which pressed on the lower for taxes which affected the richer classes of society. Mr. ROBINSON rose to state a fact which would show that the Hon. Member for Dover had not made an accurate estimate of our exports to France and Portugal respectively. It appeared that during the last period for which the official returns were made out, the British and Irish exports to Portugal amounted to 2,506,7551., whilst those to France amounted to only 546,9311. Mr. MABERLY was surprised that Government should object to the motion of the Hon. Member for Dover on ac count of its general nature, when they had consented to the appointment of the Finance Committee, the objects of which were of a more general character. There was one point upon which he could not concur with the Hon. Mover, — namely, his recommendation of the imposition of a property tax in time of peace. Mr. BARING believed that the country would exile• rience no material relief from a change of the system of taxation. He did not mean to deny that the reduction of taxation upon particular articles would increase the con sumption of them. He was ilesirons of seeing an experi ment of that nature tried, but unfortunately the recent measures of Ministers had rendered that impossible. Ile could not here avoid declaring, that, in his opinion, the House of Commons had never lent its sanction to a more profligate arrangement than that which left the country without a sixpence of surplus revenue. The Hon. Mover who proposed to reduce taxation to the extent which he lied stated in his speech, contented himself with merely hinting at the ways and means which he would substitute for them. In fact, the only suggestion he had offered upon this point was borrowed from Mr. Hum phreys—namely, the imposition of a legacy duty on land, which he was sure would not find favour in that House. It was art odious and improper tax. It would render it necessary that the property of every gentleman should be valued after his death. He thought that the question of a property-tax ought to be fairly met. His own opinion was, that a property-tax should never be imposed in this or any other• country, except to meet the emergencies of war. In time of peace it was a tnost oppressive and inquisitorial tax. If .a property-tax should be im posed, it would be necessary to except from its ope ration all capital employed in industry. With the small profits which were at present obtained front capital, it was impossible that any one would under take an adventure, with the Government for a partner to time extent of 10 per cent. in the profits without any liability to loss. It was true that this bad bee❑ endured during war; but then at that period the whole system was a bubble from beginning to end, and we were now paying dearly for it. Then, if the exception he had mentioned were made, great part of the property of the country would escape the operation of the tax, because its owners would immediately employ it in commercial transactions. So far from inducing the people to live in this country, he believed that a property-tax would create ten absentees for one now existing- It appeared to him that the Hon. Mover was completely mistaken in supposing that a partial reduction of taxation would enable the, Government to get rid of the machinery by which the revenue was collected, 'I he Hon. Member said, that by reducing the impott duties one half, we might get rid at mace of the coast blockade. He believed that a reduction of duty to that extent would not enable Government to dismiss a single man of the coast blockade. In conclusion, the Hon. Member repeated his wish that Government bad retained a surplus of revenue, in order to enable them to make some experiments as to the possibility of increasing the consumption of certain articles by the reduction of the taxes at present imposed on them, and thus benefitting the public without injury to the revel-me. Mr. E. DENISON supported the motion. General GASCOYNE expressed his determination to oppose the motion, and he was certainly astonished at the quarter in which it had originated, as well as the conduct of those by whom it was supported. He would say, that if his Majesty's Ministers were this night overpowered by a majority, they would be obliged to come down to the House and propose a property-tax.--( Hear.) Mr. WARBURTON said, it had been stated that if this Committee were appointed, the necessary consequence must be the establishment of a property tax. Now this he looked upon to be a premature assumption. It would be the duty of that Committee to look to the various sources of revenue, and to inquire whether, by judicious management, the amount now derived from them might not be increased, so as to meet the expenditure of the country. If they found that they could not effect that object by an alteration in the existing system, then, and then only, it would be right for them to resort to the mea sure of which the Gallant General had spoken. The Hon. Member then proceeded to state that there were many articles, and amongst them timber, from which a much larger revenue might be raised than they produced at pre sent. It; for instance, the duty on timber imported from the Baltic were placed on a level with the duty of timber imported from Canada, there would be a gain to the country of 1 ,500,0001. a year. Lord ALTHORP observed, that if the Committee of Finance had been allowed to proceed with its labours, there would have been no necessity fbr the present motion ; because that Committee would have, in their different re. taken a systematic view of all the taxes of the ceun try, and laid down principles by which the House might b e guided in future. The absence of such great leading principles had led to this result,—that the taxes taken off were not those which were best calculated to relieve the productive industry of the country. He was of opinion that the system of timber duties was most impolitic; and on that point lie entirely coincided with the Hon. Member who bad just. spoken. They haul the effect of encourag ing the use of the worst timber, seeing that a very heavy duty was laid on the best. With respect also to the wine duties, they might be rendered more beneficial to the re venue ; because there could be no question that if the duties on French wines were lessened, the consumption of hone ' , Ana would be increased. It was quite clear that the heavy tax on French wines prevented them from being brought into general use. It had been said that if this Committee. were granted, a p r op e rty t ax wou ld, as a mat ter of course, be la commended. Now he did not see that that was at ad a necessary eonseqn,.nce. It certainly ought he the result of the appointment of the Committee.... (Ilear)—lit it would not I,y any means be a necessary consequence of an acquiescence in the motion. Much had been said about property tax, and he believed that on that point he differed considerably from his friends about him. Still he had no hesitation in saying, that, to grant relief to the productive population by a reduction of taxes, and to impose a property tax to meet the deficiency thus occesioned, would be a very good m easure .—(H ear, h ear. ) — Th at was his own indivi dual opinion. The Gallant General might say, that he was inconsistent in what he now said, when his present was contrasted with his former opinion : and, perhqs, it might seem to many that he was so. I3ut the country was now in a situation very different from that in whirl' it was formerly placed ; and lie would say to the land-owner, that if a property-tax of 10 per cent. were impose!, he would be the gainer : because he thought that the land owner, in consequence of the existing distress, and the large sums %% hid' he was obliged to advance for the main tenance of the poor, lost considerably more than 10 per cent, on his rents. He was perfectly convinced, that it was the ill-arranged state of the taxes, more than the amount of taxes, that pressed heavily on the country. It was said, " If you grant this committee, it will be an ab dication, by the House, of its functions." Now when the Right lion. Gentleman rose to make his financial state ment, he had hoped that the Right Hon. Gentleman would have gone into a general inquiry with reference to the tax ation of the country, which would have rendered the present proceeding unnecessary. But that was not the case. He had heard nothing from the Right Hon. Gen tleman opposite to satisfy his mind on that subject, and therefore he should support the motion for a committee of inquiry. Mr. HERRIES sail that, in his opinion, the motion had a two-fold, nay, he might assert, a three-fold object. It went first to effect a certain specific reduction of taxa tion. l next embraced an inquisition into the whole state of the taxation of this country,—an inquisition to be car ried on in a Committee which the Hon. Member for Dover proposed, and of which he, of course, if the motion were agreed to, would be at the head. In addition to this, as had been stated by almost every gentleman who had spoken on the question, they might be expected, in that committee, to consider a proposition for a property tax, in substitution of many taxes which the lion. Member was of opinion ought to be repealed.—(Hear.)—Now, speaking of the Hon. Gentleman's budget, he must say, that it was particularly unfortunate. Unquestionably it was not re• ceived, even by the Hon. Gent. who supported the mo tion, with any thing like the favour that was shown to his Right Hon. Friend, when, on a former evening, he made his financial statement. The Hon. Member for Callington calla(' the proposition of the Hon. Mover a profligate pro posal, and the Hon. Member for Dorsetshire took the earliest opportunity of reprobating this extra(); dinary budget.— For his own part, he would ask, what could be a more pre posterous, what a more miserable expedient, than the rais ing of successive loans or votes of credit? The Hon. Member said, only one vote ; but he would say, successive votes of credit; because, if they once took that course, they would, of necessity, be compolled to pursue it.—(Hear.)---He must, on the grounds stated by his Right Hon. Friend, object to the policy of such a Comtnittee as that which was now proposed. For his own part, he conceived that no benefit could result from a Committee in which, as it would embrace an investigation into the whole taxation of the country, such an infinite variety of details must be considered. The Right Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to argue, that if a Committee were appointed, with the extensive powers now called for, it would absolutely put a stop to trade. While it was known that taxes affecting this or that branch of manufacture were under the con sideration of the Committee, individuals who were inte rested in their decision would be deterred from going on in their regular course. The conduct of Government always had been to keep as secret as possible any intended alteration in the taxes. The reason was very obvious; because, if an idea of their intention went abroad, it was sure to give rise to speculation. Now it did appear to him, that the labours of a Committee, invested with the extensive powers of that now called for, would lead to that result, and therefore for that, amongst many other reasons, ought not to be granted. Sir H. PARNELL was much surprised to hear from the Hon. Member for Callington that there was nothing in the system of taxation which required a change. He thought that any man who looked to the state of 'manu factures in the Netherlands, as described in The Fmign Quarterly Review, would see that we had no time to lose in removing those burthens which pressed upon our productive industry. Respecting the duties of the Com mittee, his impression was, that they would chiefly con sist in classing the taxes, so as to point out which might most advantageously be removed ; and this would be a matter of infinite importance, because the measures pur sued since 1815 in the repeal of taxes were one series of errors. He denied that there was anything in the motion which necessarily implied the imposition of a property tax, because the amount of two millions and a half, which his Hon. Friend proposed to reduce, could be redeemed by other means. In conclusion, he said they ought to take all means to promote the accumulation of wealth and the reward of industry. The undue pressure of taxation was the principal obstruction to this ; it should, therefore, be revised ; and he would vote for the Committee. Mr. PEEL said that at that late hour he should address himself to the considerations of paramount importance, arising out of the question before the House, and thereby he should disembarrass himself of the details into which the Hon. Member for Dover had entered. The proposal was, —a proposal made for the first time in Parliament,—that a Select Committee should be appointed for revising and considering the whole system of the taxation of the coun try.—(Hear.)—lt was something wonderful that it had never occurred before, that the whole power of the Go vernment and of time Parliament should be thus delegated to a Select Committee of 21.--(Hear.)—lt was a practice founded on good sense that the House should reserve to it self the power which the Hon. Member wished to devolve on a Select Committee ; that the House, possessing ample information upon all time necessary points, should not transfer to any delegated pot don of it those powers which a House of Coinmons ought to exercise of itself. And let it be recollected that the House of Conunons had fought the battles of taxation against Ministers, upon former occa sions, without Committees. Even in the time of Sir Robert Walpole the excise tax was rejected by the House without any inquiry in a Committee. The shop tax, pro posed by Mr. Pitt, had been defeated without any Com mittee. In 1907 Lord Henry Petty proposed a duty on iron, which had been defeated in that House. In 1817 the House had defeated the intention of the Government to continue the property tax ; and with respect to this tax he (Mr. Peel) advised the House whether a property tax was advisable or not, to start fair on the question,:and not have it decided in a Select Committee.—(Hear, hear.)—He (Mr. Peel) gave no opinion on the expediency of a property tax; but he advised gentlemen in that House, and those of the landed interest especially, to reserve this question to themselves, or at least to throw the responsibility of proposing it upon the Government, and not permit Government to screen and shelter itself from responsibility under a Select Committee.—(Hear, hear.) Almost all those who had advocated the appointment of the Committee had contem plated a property tax as a necessary consequence of it.— The Hon. Member for Dover, indeed, did not (to use a homely phrase) let the cat out of the bag—but he suffered a little kitten to escape, which showed pretty well what the cat would be. He proposed a legacy duty on real property, which, he said, would add 1,500,0001. to a property tax. If there were any Irish Members present, he would beg to advertise them that Ireland had been ex empted from the property tax ; and supposing that there should be a fair proportion of Irish members in the Com mittee of 21, Irish members would perform their duty to their constituents, by rejecting the proposal of a property tax, leaving such a proposal to the Government. He (Mr. Peel) could not conceive how a Parliamentary Com mittee could discharge the duties which the Hon. Member proposed to impose upon it. Was the Committee to make a report recommending a remission of taxes in the present Session or in a future Session ? If in,the present Session, the consequence of that would be, that there would be a second budget, founded, not on the opinions of his Ma jesty's Government, but of the Select Committee. — Hitherto it had been considered that proposals for the im position of taxes belonged to the Crown, and that it seas an encroachment on the privileges of his Majesty's Mi nisters to interfere in that province. Besides, the Com mittee would not be a Committee of Secrecy, and every memher could divulge what took, place there.— Witnesses would be shrewd e nough to perceive the bi as of the Committee ; the e ff ects which the inquiry would have on trade would be serious ; every one con nected with trade would be pressing forward to be examined in order to serve his own purposes. The members of this Committee of twenty-one would be, in fact, the most powerful men in the House, and their power would pro Canto diminish that of every other Member. If the House a dopted the motion of the Hon. Member, it would be abandoning to twenty-one of its Members 501110 of its most r in e p te o d r t t a o n sulytions. delegation Ono of functions therefore, he of and although the Non. Member for Dover disavowed any hostility to Government by his motion, he (Mr. Peel) put Y e g ti r oV;roperly its own ; it to the sense of the House whether his Majesty's Ministers would not be degraded by its adoption.—(Hear.)—The Chancellor of the Exchequer would be virtually super seded; for whilst he sat in Downing-street, with dimi nished power, which were intrusted to him for the public good, and with a broken staff of office, a Chancellor of the Exclitepier i hacked by a Select Committee, would be ex-- ercising his futictions within the purlieus of that House. if the intention of the tote Vras to show a distrust of his Majesty's Government, it fii;:setild be expressed in a manner less prejudicial to the public interests. The Ministers of the Government should be upheld in the exercise of their jii,t influence and power ; it was no ;anger a Government when, although in possession of place, ii was discredited in the estimation of the public.---(Hear.)--He (Mr. Peel) would ten times rather support the pretensions of the Hon. Member for Dover to fill the situation of ChaiScellof of the Exchequer, appointed by the Crown, than centeent to remain in office a nominal servant of the Crown, hut merely registering the edicts of a Select Committee. Mr. BRIGHT spoke against the motion. It was the duty of the House to keep this power to itself, and not intrust it to a Committee. The House should be jealous of parting with its power in respect to taxation. He never could consent to the imposition of a property tea. Mr. HUSKISSON said, that the only part of the speech of the Hon. Member for Dover, from which he entirely dissented, was the proposal of a vote of credit ; lie understood him to propose successive votes of credit, He :tercel with the Right Hon. President of the Beard of Trade (Mr. Herries), that when is first step in thie way was taken, no one knew where it would step. He could not agree with the Right Hon. Secretary (Mr. Peel), that if the House supported this motion, on any view of is suhject which was net consistent wish the view of the Right Hon. Gentleman, it would be placing the Govern ment in such a situation that it would he more manly and consistent to declare that the House placed no confidence in his Majesty's Ministers.—(Hear.)—The Chancellor of the Exchequer had gone further, and stated that it would almost amount to a misprision of treason, or at least a slight on the Government, for any other than the Chen cellor of the Exchequer to propose the repeal of A tax.— (Ilear.)—With respect to referring questions of ea:nation to a Committee, without going so far back as Sir Robert Walpole, examples might be found is favour of the prac tice in recent times. The silt duty had been referred to a Committee, who were expressly instructed to inquire into the best mode of commuting it.—(Hear.) —Two different Committees had reported on the propriety of taking of the tax on leather. In these eases, there had been no alarms in the public mind, no change of Government, end no loss of confidence by his Majesty's Ministers. the House could not refer each subjects to a Com mittee without cndangeriug the safety of the country, it had better give up inquisition altogether.—(Hear, hear.)—What were the Committees on foreign trade, and the Committee which recommended taking off the prohibition from silk manufactures? It had been the same with bullion, the currency, the 1/. notes in 1826 ; —they were all measures whirls affected the interests of lard-owners. Even that great subject, the Corn question, came before a Committee.—(Hear, hear.)—One great point in th it question was, whether there should be an en tire prohibition of the import of foreign corn, or a tax. Those who were so sanguine as to anticipate a possibility of reducing any of our present taxation, vritheut substi toting new taxes instead, would naturally first direct their inquiries with respect to the bearings of the present eye tem, and this could be most effectually accomplished by the appointment of a Select Committee. The Hon. Member for Dover had not touched upon the malt tax, yet it was not a subject to be over-looked, particularly when they bore in mind that the Excise regulations added at least 50 per cent. in restraint and annoyance to the hard working industry of the country, beyond what they were the means of bringing in to the revenue. It had been said that this was the province of Government, not of a Committee; but he asked in return, fcr what reason they had selected the leather tax for repeal? Wu it not be cause the disproportionate relation of loss to the people with gain to the revenue had been already pointed out? The Hon. Member for Bridport had alluded to the mode of taxing foreign timber, and he fully concurred in all that he had said as to its impelicy. We certainly in creased the employment of our shipping, but it could not be maintained that we promoted the interests of the country. Ile did not, however, look forward to the repeal of a single tax which had been pointed out, Lot only desired to examine into the proportion be tween the actual burden imposed upon the people, and the amount of taxation received into the Exchequer. Timers was no intention of taking the Budget oat of the hands of Government, but this good would at all events result, — the opinions of independent ,ifiokn3esitiwhnosior t Members eldrweg,a oy a i, s ffi Ha t t o n:idle ! yhbteeos should oth r i a ell ei c tni t : i gt e l bit /t ile:l Forced practica bility nm p a ut r is t it i e c g u ar l a a dd r otii)a r t ileolrylnu make esteemed expedient and feasible on examination by the thinking part of the community. This, he acknowledged, was all the benefit which he contemplated, as he did not expect any further reduction of taxation daring the pre sent Session, without the substitution of other taxes in stead. With regard to his own imputed squeamishness about the property-tax, he should only say, that it had been his object only to point out how far the mode of levy ing such a tax in these times ought to differ from that in troduced at the period of the war. He bad merely ex pressed a doubt that the country would ever right itself without receiving some greater relief Aim could possibly be administered by a direct repeal of taxation. The method of levying the revenue was a snbjert fraught with interest I to all who desired to see economy practised in the manage ment of the State, and lie could see nothing irregular in proposing such an inquiry, more especially at a time when a general impression was entertained throughout every part of the kingdom, that the agricultural and manufacturing interests could not exist under the pressure of the existing direct taxation upon industry. Agriculture was actually represented to be in a state of progressive deterioration, cud, under such circumstances, they ought not to delay longer if they wished to interpose between the farmer and utter destruction, which it was but too likely might prove tae consequence of such delay. Another great source of public burden Wes to be traced to prohibitions and re straints, which equally demanded an attentive consialera tion. If relief were granted to the operative industry of the country—te the millions of consumers, the lauded in terest, he felt assured, would at once experience the good effects of the benefit which accrued from it. In Birming ham alone, it was ascertained that the consumption of most had diminished by one-third, and it was thus made ap parent that the market prices, under the regent system, would fall lower than was consistent with the interests of the country and the maintenance of the revenue. The Hon. Member for Callington had alluded to the case of France ; but France, it ought to be remembered, was set near so extended now as during the revolutionary war— ts war actually occasioned by the heavy taxes which op pressed the people at the time. Freese in those days, un der a military government, eould not raise 4,60,000,000 of revenue, and he had no hesitation in saying that a de ficiency of 60,000,000 had been the immediate cause of that revolution. Rut what was her condition at present? Why, she was able to pay a thousand millions. It was his unalterable conviction that we could not uphold the corn laws now in existence, together with the taxation, compatibly with national prosperity or public contentment. That these laws could be repealed without affecting the landed interest, whilst the people would be relieved from their distress, he never had any doubt whatever. It was a general feeling that some change must be effected, and that soon ; nor were there any more thoronhly per persuaded of it than those who moved in the humblest walks of life. Whether a Committee of inquiry would be appointed or not, he was gratified that this motion had been made, as the discussion wend no doubt attract that atten tion which the luminous discourse of the Noble Lord in itself well deserved, for its rigour of argument, apart from all other considerations, suggested by such a sot jeer. Mr. BRIGHT stated, in explanation, that it was his intention to move for a repeal of sonar specific tax before the end of the session. Mr. PEEL explained that his objection to the motion arose as well from its hying unpredeated in Parliament as because the committee it recommended would be unlimited in its character. Sir C. BURRELL, as we understood, supported the petition, but the few words th a t h e sa id were lost i n the gallery, owing to the noise and confusion in the House. Mr. WESTERN said, he should be reluctantly com pelled to vote against the motion of his Hon. Friend, on the ground that such a committee as he recommended would supersede the House of Commons in the exercise of its legitimate and natural functions. Sugar, assessed taxes, stamp duty, were subjects which it w-aa their duty presently to discuss; and he might also add the corn question, as it had been announced that it would shortly be brought be fore them; but on all those important topics they must remain silent and suspend their rightful powers, if they appointed this Committee. He was not favourable to any proposition which went to take so momentous a charge from the responsible hands of Ministers, in order to vest it in an irresponsible body Eke a Committee.--(Hear.) Lord PALMERSTON said, he should merely, at that late hour, offer a few remarks In explanation of the grounds 1,. prd • - njurious. was (id. -t shilling.. he dutv-4 , had been pan was process, ''".. iss when ne glass, Made the e coarse uircd of cost of )er cent. er cent., A ma- Netlicr- lanufac- were it Labour '• greater, oilefotts advan- VAS to e to im- with a likely to rgument lanufae- to pro his try g a great 3,0001., name for y, and : o paper, •' nnpoliey ly disse the an i,oool. ; the Ex• mann )o,ooo/. conati- stattd , Exci3e when d to glee per, and erwards,