The Sun. — London, England, 1854-05-09 00:00:00

I bay' s altered the mode of i issuing deficiency bills. I have done so by endeavouring 'co place it upon precisely the garnet principle which is applied to the issue of money for the 'public service. There are two questions—one of po licy, whether it is right that you should have in your cof fers at the end of each quarter a sum sufficient to meet - the whole charge that is coming due, or whether you should trust for a portion of it to the incoming revenue. That is a great question of policy. Ido not judge it now. On the present occasion, the question we have to consider is simply this, whether, supposing you have not got in your coffers a sum sufficient to meet all the charges at the beginning of the quarter, you shall, upon the first day of each quarter, create an unnecessary debt, in order to create a needless credit to the abstract amount of those charges, totally independent, not only of the improbabi lity, but of the impossibility, of their having to be met at the commencement of the quarter. Now I believe that the public has a scale of transactions so large that it is able to close its accounts in a way that with a more limited business could not be thought of for a moment. What are deficiency bills? They are bills issued in amounts of 50,000/. each to the Bank, to be held by the Bank, and Ton may issue any amount of them you please-5,000,000/• in five weeks, if you like. If, however, you i ssue at f u ll beginning of each quarter deficiency bill s to the mount of the Consolidated Fund charges that are coming due, you must have more than you will require bec the those charges are never all made at the beginning f quarter, and to the extent of your surplus deticiency bills o you will have created an unnecessary l oan, upon whic hsentsh e public must pay interest from the first. Comnrnst au k commo n reason, and common practice are all aga , in erke wv,h a system. (Hear.) I now speak of wh at has been reference to the April dividends. With refetri!encTe,eteaseuthe July dividends, that is a question which do not think a very serious onee—whether l aw in Tjs Awith the present form, under the Loan Act, c Deficiency Act—whether the law requiremsetubsatnoadhereto the very mischievous, ex:pensive, and. mot. e xpens i ve, . the delusive practice of making a large issue and creat i ng an immense 0 /edit. I gen about to take the opinion . of the ' law o ffi cers of the Cro - seu on that point. Unless their opi nion is favourable, I a'aall not think myself justified in in troducing that reformation, after having agreed to take their opinion ;- but ray course will be t o come to this house and ask you to place the matter on a reasonable footing. (Hear.) As to the April dividends, the act of 1844 did not requite that pia ctice to be followed ; and after consulting the legal advisers of the Crown, we had no doubt as to the , law of the caee, so far as regards those dividends. Though this matter is one of great importance, I am aware of the) dryness of it. (Hoar.) I will not enter further into it. I e m greatly indebted to the committee for the patience with which you have heard me, although there is much more to say upon the subject; and if I do not say it, I must only beg the committee to consider it is from no dis position on my part to reserve anything ; but t'ne clock ad monishes me that I have occupied a considerable time already. and there is ranch yet that is before me. (Cheers.) Assisted by the patience and indulgence of the committee, I have now gone through those charges of mismanagement with respect to the unfunded debt, of reckless disregard of the warnings both of feet and of intelligent persons with respect to the scheme for the conversion of the debt, and of some mystical operation for the purpose of blinding the public with respect to the mode of charging the deficiency bills; and I venture to hope 1 have so far explained those matters, and my conduct with respect to them, that Inlay proceed at once, without prejudice or discredit in their opinion, to explain the views which the Governme,nt enter tain with regard to the measures demanded by ;he exigen cies of the public service, (Loud. cheers.) The committee will be kind enough to revert to the words with which I opened my address. As they wal recollec e, I referred to what took place on the 6th of '.search, an.a the temporary provision then made for the purpose of meeting the ex penses that had been incurred by the Csovernment in send ing an expedition to the East. I pill not, sir, at this period. travel again over the grounds which I then occu pied ; but I will take tb.at day as my starting point, and proceed to explain our further views and proposals, only reminding you of these facts; that there wes an excess on the 6th of Karch on the estimates of 4, 307,010/. ; that in that 4,307,0001. vas included a sum of 1,250,001. taken for e xtraordinary expenses of the war; that the ordinary revenue of the country was unequal, by a sum of 2,810,0001. to meet the charges incurred by the estimates, and the sum estimated for extraordinaries ; whereas, if there hint been no increase in the estimates we should have had, in lieu of that deficiency of 2,840,0001., a surplus of 1,666,0001. The Government asked, and the house agreed to grant, half a year's double income tem, which was estimated to produce 3,307,0)0/.; and hewing added that stun to the amount of revenue estima,e,rel, it showed a total revenue of 56,656,0001. against Is total estimated expenditure of 66,189,0001., or a surplus of 467,0001. Since that time, sir, no estimates haea been framed, and my colleagues as well as naysel can. assure the house. that we have lest no time either in framing those estimates, in endeavouring to calculate the prr.bable scale of the war expenditure, or of bringing those) estimates, when framed, under the conside ration of the.leouSe. They have been submitted on the part of the naval department, the army, and the ordnance. For the n a vy, Government a s ks f or an a dditi ona l vo t e o f 4,550,00`J/., for its own charges and the services it performson, behalf f the other great departments. The charge for t' A e army is 300,0001. The charge for the ordnance is '340,030/. The militia I estimated at 500,0001. Since then it has been announced in this house that Government pro poses to take power, and to act on that power, of embody ing a pottiest of that militia, probably 15,000; men ; and the expense of that operation gives an additional sure of 500,0001. of militia expenditure for the year, or a million altogether, though adding only 500,0001. to the new or supplemental estimates. Putting together the items of 4,550,0001. for the navy, 300,0001. for the army, 640,0001. for the ordnance, and 500,0001. for the militia, we find a total of 6,000,0001. to provide for. But, sir, in time of war, in proportion to the increase of our known charges,we must :also wake provision for. chergee unknown ; anti although :1,2:413,0001. was sentient to take in th e mon th s of Mirth; -.vase it was possible the expedition sent to the East might return to our shores without having drawn the sword—now it is different. Blood has been shed ; operations have been performed ; and the only rational view is to presume we must make provision for war expenditure for the year. Therefore, besides all the services, which are estimated for in strict Parliamentary phrase, I put 853,0001. to that 1,250,0001, and the total is 2,100,0001., for which we shall probably ask for a vote of credit. The form of the vote is not yet determined upon, and it may be convenient to wait a little longer before determining it. I wish to be under stood to ask for not less than 2,100,000/., applicable to cir cumstances which may arise in the course of the war, at the discretion of the Government. I beg the committee to keep apart from the question we are now discussing an other question, and a very important question, namely, whether funds in cash ought not to be placed at the com mand of Parliament, over and above the sums I have seamed. That is altogether a distinct question, and one on which I shall presently touch. lam now speaking of the amount of votes we ask of Parliament, as at present ad -vised, and using the best information in our power, and the result is, we ask the coeunittee to snake provision, which I hope will be adequate for the expenses of the year —a provision in addition to that already granted of 6,850,0001. The view taken by the Government, and the conviction at which they have arrived, are that this sum of 6,850,000/. ought to be provided by an addition to the taxa tion of the country. They have thought it their duty care fully to consider what were the items upon which an in ,crease of taxation might most justly and fairly be laid, and, in the first instance, the mind of every man who hears me will outrun the course of my observations with respect to one great portion of those items. I may therefore do best, first of all, to state that we propose to execute that intention which we had formed contingently some time ago, namely, that in case of the necessity of further de mands for means to meet the expenditure of the war, we ought to look first to repeat on the income tax the opera tion which we have already applied to the first half-year's payment. I sea the right hon. gentleman the member for :Lincolnshire smiles, and it is impossible to have a better omen of success than that very genial and cordial greeting. The income tax, as it stood under the law of 1853, was esti mated to yield 6,275,000/. The resolution adopted by this committee in March, 1354, added to it 3,307,0001., making a total of 9,532,0001. The second half-yearly payment of income tax, which we propose to add to the first, will not amount precisely to the same sum, because the first half :year includes a somewhat greater amount of arrears ; but -we estimate it at 3,250,0001. to be added to the 9,532,0301., 'raising the total produce of the income tax for the year 1851-55 to very nearly the sum of 13,000,0001.—that is to say, to 12,832,0001. We propoie, then, to double the in come tax ; and I have described thus far the fulfilment of our intentions, which the mind of almost every man had probably anticipated would be the plan of the Government. :But her Majesty's : Government are of opinion that it is - their duty, having now entered into a war, to place the finances of the country for that war-- so far as it is at their command to do it—on a firm anal stable footing, by an adherence to former precedent ; and although, so long as we had the slightest hope, the faintest imagination, that the expenditure would be temporary, we adopted the con stitutional principle of limiting our demands both to the smallest sum and the shortest time, when we come to make provision for war, Re think it our duty to ask you to en able us to make that provision as it has been made in for tiler times, when our forefathers were called on to struggle for objects of national duty, national character, and na tional interests, and to pay augmented taxes which were to subsist during the period of that war. We therefore shall ask the committee to grant the augmentation of the 'Moult!, tax now proposed—that is, the augmentation from 7d. to lid. for the period of the war. (Hear, hear.) It is sot necessary to request the committee to come to a deci sion on that havesubject. According to precedent, in the reso lution, weonly to declare the principle of the in ueeeese, and thelimit of time, if at all, can be made on the eettheequent introduction of the bill. In the bill, therefore, we shall emplo terms employe e ? ' 0 th e terms nearly corresponding with the will be to place for mer occasions. The effect of these services to be approved the rate of Is. . fortl the disposal of the Government, for by Parliament, the income tax at tailing the distinction o e f the five-penny rate, which will period of the war—of course re eenly be raised to 1 0 100/. to 150/, a year. ( (an pe rsons having incomes from in conformity, as far es we are able We shall also propose orfa to preserve that con. fortuity, with the intimatio n st . year, that in the event—of which God grant the e n r a e i a n lisa z realisat io n.. —in the event of the termination of the war, income tax of 1853, the augmented inco me of the falling back on the precise terms of the inc om e etax shall cease ' a the ce to " 1 justed in the measure of last year. . (gear) tb t I I 4 Th e s e a t !: wide° will see that this much is obvious th at to be made by means of new taxes, after o a plying the surplus of 1,660,0001., which remained over fro m the former year, will equal about ten millions, and I e , stated to the committee our intentions about the income tax, which brings US to this point—that we prop ose to make provision from that source for about two-thirds of the entire expenditure ; and then an ther most obvi ous ques . tion arises as to further levies. (Hear.) That is a ques tion which, of course, we have been called on carefully t o consider. There are those who t hi nk of the income t ax so highly that they are willing to see it carried to a consider ably greater percentage than we propose, say, for instance, to a percentage of 10 per ce nt., wefithtaoxuets.ent(eHrienagr.)on Sir,the question of other augmenta tio ns the,Government, aware of the value the purposes of war, and having sh ow n of th th e e m i s n e c lv o e m s, e l ta th x in f k or , not indisposed to avail themselves of it s an to e instrument push the for fulfilling that purpose, yet are n ot Incase doctrine of the expediency of the income tax to so ex treme a point. (Loud cheers.) We do not think i t is j ust in principle that the class or classes whose incomes range f ro m 1001. to 150/. a y ear an d u pw ar ds should bear the who le expenditure of the war entered into for national purposes. The income tax may fall very lightly on a gentleman of great wealth, and it does fall lightly upon them. But we cannot go into the general question of a graduated income tax. The same disposition to keep the finances of the coun try apart, if we can keep it apart, from every dangerous and dieorganising question which forbad us last year from entering on the visionary and mischievous scheme of at tempting to apportion a tax to the value of different inte rests in England—that same principle forbids the attempt to apportion a rate of tax to all the different and varying classes of income as is partially done to these amounts; and that being so, and looking to the bearing on men withlool. a-year, and men with 1501. a-year, and men with 2001. a year, and men with 3001. a-year—upon many of those per sons with wives and families to support, and the character and position of educated and refined men to sustain—we cannot deny the severity of the burdens brought on them, and that it is inconsistent with a sense of public duty that they should be exclusive bearers of those burdens. (Hear.) Neither are there any other direct taxes which the Go vernment are prepared at the present moment to augment (Loud cheers.) So far as the assessed taxes are concerned —if you call those direct taxe s, which is very doubtful it is obvious that we should entirely risk the new system of the assessed taxes, which the committee will recollect was entirely re-constructed by the measure of last year, if we were to tamper with it at the present moment ; because while in that year we reduced greatly the taxes payable, we brought within its sweep persons and objects previously exempt. We invited those persons to fix their establish ments between October, 1853, and April, 1854, according to the taxes levied in 1854-55. It would be as if we had drawn them into a trap, and as I said before,lwould endanger the continuance of the measure if we increased the assessed t a xes under present circumstances. (Cheers.) Neither are there any other direct taxes which we propose to in crease. .bleb in briefly stating the consideration of the Go vernment are several indirect taxes to which I will a dvert ; pro poseve ~ rnme' n , 7 nt e ,. h l an w g i e ll . fir N st o t w a , ke in th t o h se e o fi n rs w t hichwe do place, her subject which prima facie may be said t o be obvious, and 1 71'.ich forces itself_on the consideration of a minister of co.nance, driven to his wit's end for means of enlarging the resources of the country, and that is the alteration of the rate of postage ; because an alteration of the rate of post age was attended by this consideration. Thejwhole increase realised would give a net increase, while the expenditure would probably be even diminished. Bat, sir, the Govern ment are not prepared to propose such as alteration. They think that scheme has been admirably successful. (Hear.) It has contributed, in a degree which hardly any one could be sanguine enough to anticipate, to the comforts of the people. It is a great civilising and humanising agent. Its moral advantages are not less strikin g than its economical recommendations, and I am bound to say in a fiscal view it has answered every expectation that could be rationally formed of it—(cheers)—for while in the year 1810 the net proceeds of the postage revenue were 447.0001., in 1847 they had risen to 845,01)1., and in 1853 they had risen to 1,1.04,0001. It may be recollected that in the year of the Great Exhibition, the sudden addition to the postage of Use country was so enormous that a re-action in the revenue was expected in the next year ; but any one who leoksover the annual lists can scarcely detect which was the year of the GremS Exhibition,so rapid and so stea.dyhaslyeen the growth of receipts under this most desirable and meet advantageous system. The doubling of postage, unless applied to the districts, would not bring in more than 600,0001. ; and if extended to the districts, would not he more than 750,0001.; and, even under present circumstances, the Government are decidedly of opinion that it would. not be wise to effect any change in respect to postage, except such changes as would tend to extend and augment the accommodation which it afforded. (Hear.) They have lately succeeded in making one arrangenient which, indeed, renders any interference with the law at this moment peculiarly un seasonable. A most valuable public servant, a man of me impeached honour, of great assiduity, and of excellent abilities, was secretary to the rest-office at the time this change was adopted. Ile has continued secretary until the present tieoe, and he retires from office into another poet in the public service with the full confidence and approba tion of all under whom he has served. But, without dis perezement to any one, it will be obvious to the committee that there is a great advantage in placing the development of the postage under the immediate care and superinten deuce of the gentleman who has the happiness of thinking that he steads recorded before the world, and his name will be handed down to posterity, us the author of that ' system. (Cheers.) Mr. Rowland Hill has within the last few weeks assumed the office of secretary to the Post office, and if we have seen' that system extend and multi ply its benefits with great rapidity heretofore, yet from the parental fondness awl great ability of that gentleman, we are justified in anticipating for the future a still more rapid increase of income. (Cheers.) Much has been said out of doors on the subject of reimposing the taxes remitted last year. Ido rot know that it is necessary for me to refer to that subject ; but if I do refer to it, I need not detain the committee by discussing it. Government does not intend to propose their reimposition. (Loud cheers.) It is dan gerous to indulge in abstract or even general declarations ; but we entertain the hope that nothing but the last extre mity will ever induce the representatives of the people of this country to replace anew the fetters of Excise restrie , thee in cases where they have been once removed. (Hear, hear.) The emancipation of trade we are persuaded will produce national benefits far outweighing the loss of revenue, and we do not propose to interfere with the opera tion of measures which we are persuaded are so beneficial , for the country. (Cheers.) Another case which I like wise refer to—because it was dealt with last year, and ne ' cause it touches the objections of Excise—is the case of the tea duty. We cannot, on the whole, think it corn patine with our duty to charge at the present moment the scale of duties proposed on tea by the measure of las=t year. (Hear.) The committee will recollect the heavy duty payable on tea was not lowered by a single stroke, but by a succession of falls, until it arrived at the level of a shilling. To -alter a duty like that is interfering, no:, with a particular rate, but with a complex process, awl we ought especially to bear in mind the bearing of the: tea, I duty in England on China. It is not like an article grown for all the markets in the world. The tea of China is grown for England. Ido not say that it goes nowhere else. A considerable quantity goes to the United States, a small portion to the Continent, but from one-half to is third of all the tea exported from China is grown for and exported to this market. (Hear.) The object of the mea sure of last year was to encourage measures which will lead to an increase of the available quantity. Those mea sures necessarily extended over a aeries of years. Were we to interfere for the sake of supplying wants, which I trust may yet possibly be shortlived—were we to interfere with them, we should run the risk of doing damage and throwing back improvement, with respect to the increased. supply of tea, which it would take many long years to re place. (Cheers.) Another subject may recur to your , I minds, and that is the tobacco duty. With regard to the . 1 tobacco duty, it is impossible for us wisely to propose any change. The tobacco duty is a wonderful achievement. We raise five millions upon an article with a rate of duty of something like 1,200 per cent., and that revenue is progressively improving from year to year. (Cheers.) That is a wonderful state of things, and I think• it one of those cases to which to apply the doctrine of let well alone. (Hear.) Were we to tamper with it, Ido not think we should get a very large sum. We might break down the revenue altogether, and enable the smuggler to have the tapper hand. The moral disadvantages of smuggling are disadvantages not unworthy of consideration ; and, lastly, if one moment could be more unfortunate than another for the augmentation of the tobacco duty, this is the pre cise moment, when the First Lord of the Admiralty tells us he has been obliged to withdraw the best of the Coast Guard for the service of the Crown in the navy. (Hear.) These are the principal subjects which have passed under the review of the Government, but with respect to which they have come to a negative conclusion, and by the whispers and buzz around me I can readily perceive the committee do not take quite so much interest in the negative conclusion as in the positive conclusion. (Hear, and cheers.) Very well, sir. I now come to the positive conclusions. We have stated it is necessary to go to the consumer, and, going to the consumer, to endeavour to do that in a form which shall least interfere with trade, least interfere with the innocent enjoyments of the people, least interfere with consumption—which, in effect, shall cause the smallest deduction from the comforts and advantages enjoyed by the people as compared with the amount of re venue to be realised for the purpose of the State. (Hear.) On the 6th of March I adverted to the effect of the mea sures of last year for the increase of taxation, and so far' from receding I evinced a disposition to extend one still further, and that was the augmentation of the duty on spirits in Scotland and Ireland. In Scotland that augmen tation of duty was eminently agreeable. It was received by the whole country, I may say, with the same genial smile with which the hon. member for Lincoln should greet my announcement of the double income tax. (Cheers.) There is no fear in Scotland as regards the smuggler, and , I beg the committee to recollect that the ultimate equali , satiou of the spirit duties, which may involve some re duction in England, and likewise some increase in Soot , land, is a great object of fiscal policy, irrespective of the immediate needs of the Exchequer. That being so, we propose to repeat the increase of ls. a eallen, and in place of 4s. Bd., as the duty now stauds, it will stand, if the committee approve the plan of the Government, at Sc. Bd. per gallon. (Hear.) With respect to Ireland, the suc cess of the measure last year was most complete. There there was apprehension of smuggling; but, so far from calling smuggling into existence, or giving increased ac tivity to smuggling, by the augmentation of duty, that augmentation of duty did not tnrow back the consump tion—did not prevent the increase of consumption. The increased duty was Bd. a gallon, and I estimated the amount of increased revenue at 198,0001., whereas it actu ally yielded 213,0001. (Cheers.) We propose to apply the same modicum of increase of Bd. per gallon this year as last, to the duty on spirits in Ireland. Allow ing'for the reduction of consumption, 250,000 gallons in Ireland, and in Scotland 380,000 gallons, the result of these measures will be a gain of 150,0001. to the Exchequer. (Cheers.) In the statement of the 6th March, I adverted to a subject—a very knotty and vexed one--Lwhieh .for a long series of years has been among the standing problems of Chancellors of the Exchequer and Secretaries of the Treasury—namely, that which relates to the question of refining sugar in bond. It is a matter very fall of difficul ties, and I gave a promise in the month of March that after Easter the intentions of the Government on that subject should be announced. The committee are aware of the grievance. It is unnecessary to dwell upon it in detail. It is a grievance which arises from equal duty and equal drawback on many qualities of sugar, which are very une qual in their yield of refined sugar, and which, when the drawback is received, are subject to very different fiscal conditions. It is absolutely necessary to make some ar rangement. We might ask Parliament to enact that all refining of sugar shall be in bond. But we are reluctant to make a proposal, which will imply restriction and pre vent the expansion of industry and enterprise, by the ap r plication of fetters objectionable in character. It would create, in fact, a new sort of excise. Another project is to allow nothing but open refining. But here we do not escape the difficulty with regard to refining for export, , and we should likewise be withdrawing a privilege long ago granted and enjoyed under the existing law. There is an other plan, allowing parties at their own option either to refine in bond or to refine aduty paid article. The objec tion to that is, that it would cause very considerable loss to the revenue. Upon the whole, therefore, the Govern ment have been brought to the conclusion, that the best plan for them to adopt was a plan of qualification of sugars,_ the i n t ro d uc ti on , th a t i s t o sa y, w ith reference to equ a l to all sugars, of the distin c tion o f qua liti e s which at present applies to f ore i gn sugars. Th e sugar w hi c h i s o f a qua lit y not if of thebrown or white clayed is subject to a duty of if n ▪ es.,under the quality o f re fi ne d it pays ll s . Bd., an d, quality? lile frefined, it pays 13s. 4d. per cwt. ; but foreign sugar, while of brown clayed, it pays 12s. when under the quality pay s 13s. if un d er th e qua lit y o f w hit e clayed, it s , if under refined, and 17s. 4d. if of the quality of refined. U pon the altered, and, as the sth l of July nex t th e d u t y i s t o b e spective of origin, being aw now stands, all sug a rs, irre after the sth of Jull3 not equal s to white clayed, w ou ld per cwt. The griev ance of thiebject to a d u t y o f 1 . 0 5„ refiner w ou ld t h en come fully into considerati on , and we there is much in that grievance, and thatbound. to sa y th a t met by some attempt at reli e f. The it oug ht t o be 1 that the readjustment of the sugar dutieso committee will see the Government, and at the same time it was forced upon for us to make a sacrifice in the revenue. But if impossible to lower the sugar duties upon a certain class, that wemightwere lead to a los s in the revenue, and we sho uld be again driven to raise the dutie s . In p oint of fact, in some way or other the duty must be raised, and there is another considera tion which has induced the Government to make the pro posal—that this is an article on which we can ask for an increase mostposal— favourable to the Treasury without adding to the price paid by the consumer. I mean the price ac tually paid by the consumer at tho present time, not the price he would have to pay, supposing that the alterations THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY .EVENING, MAY 9, 1854. which are provided for take place. It is a boon withheld from him, and not one of the actual enjoyments of which he is deprived. Indeed it is rather improving his position —(hear, ar i d a laugh ) — because you will agree with me it is the foretcn duty which at present regulates the price, and not the British duty. The foreign duty upon all sugars not equal to white clayed in quality is at present 13s. We propose that by an immediate resolution it shall be fixed at 125., without any regard to origin, incident upon all sugars alike, I mean to say upon all sugars of whatever country. We propose to antedate by the period of about eight weeks, the equalization of the sugar duties; and, in fact, it will be my duty to ask the committee for its formal assent, with a view to fiscal purposes, to this reso lution to-night; and, therefore, from to-morrow the in crease of duty will be in operation. The scale of duties, as it is proposed for all sugars, irrespective of origin, will be, then—if beneath brown clayed, lls. per cwt. ;if equal to brown, but not quite equal to white clayed, 12s. ; if equal to white clayed, and not equal to refined, 14s. ; if refined, 16s. tilo cwt. The corresponding rate upon mo lasses will be 4s. 6d. The gain which I anticipate, from the application of this scale to the sugar duties, not in volving an increase on the duties prevailing at the present moment, but involving an increase on what would be the duties after July in the present year of about ls. 6d. or 2s. , per cwt., will amount to 700,0031., to add to the 450,0001. from the increase upon spirits. Honourable gentlemen, will see, therefore, that I have taken for the income tax 3,280,0001., for spirits 450,0001., and for sugar duties 700,0001., making, in all, 4,400,000/. The amount of the charge for which I stated it was necessary to provide was 6,850,000/. ; it will therefore be seen that we have a considerable step yet to make Sir, we propose to make that step by an augmentation of the duty on malt. (Hear, and a laugh.) Her Majesty's Go vernment are convinced that this, in combination with the increase of the spirit duties, with the moderate increase, if so it is to bo called, or modification rather, of the sugar duties, is the fairest mode in which they can give effect to the principle upon which they propose to act—namely, that this war, although you may fairly come upon the wealthier el ISIC3 with your first demands, yet being a war undertaken not for the benefit of any class in particular, but with a view to the national interest and the national honour—is one the e:q:ense of which ought to be fairly distributed between the different classes of the country. (Hear.) We think that this is a duty which is recommended by the considera tion that it is an article of almost universal consumption, and is at present in competition with other articles, wine and spirits, which are far more highly taxed—not but that I hope they always will be more highly taxed, though at the preset time they are taxed out of all proportion with malt. It is, too, an article upon which we feel certain we can get pretty nearly all the revenue we expect, and upon which we can collect the duty without additional expense. (Hear, hear.) It is an article on which we shall be imposing no add , tional restraint of any kind, and it is an article which fair!; appears to us to combine—quite irrespective of the considerations of former times—all those features which out ht, if we had any choice, to determine our choice. I cannot, however, altogether decline to refer to former times though here I must remind the committee that the malt :luty, as it now stands, is a very different thing from the malt duty of a former period, because it stood then in grace ful sissoeiation with a beautiful sister—the beer duty, which was really equal to no less than a duty of 3s. 93. a bushel upon malt. In order to show you the effect of thebeer duty upon the malt duty, I will give you the two taxes as they stood together up, to the abolition of the beer duty. In 1801 the duty upon malt was ls. 4d. per bushel, but then the beer duty was Sc. a-barrel, which gave a duty on malt of 4s. 41d. ; in 1302 the malt duty rose to 2s. 53., which, with a beer duty of 9e. sd. made a duty on malt of ss. ; in 1301 there was a further increase in the malt duty to 4s. and the beer duty also rose to 10s„ so that the effective duty on malt was Bs. 2id. per bushel. In 1816, after the peace (it was a war duty), the malt duty was reduced to 2s. 50., but the beer duty continued at 103., .$) that the effective duty on malt in 1316 was Gs. 2d. In 1319, in a time of peace (I have never proposed to fol low that precedent), it was raised to 33. 7 d., which, with the beer duty of 10s. became 7s. ; in 1822 it was again redeced to 2s. 7:1., and, adding the beer duty, it was equivalent to Gs. 4d. per bushel. In 1830 it remained at 2s. 741., wails the beer tax was taken off, and at that it has stood with the sole exception of the addition of the rate of 5 per cent. under the measure of 1840, which makes the present malt duty, a little more than 2s. 80., with some fraction. Toe proposal of the Government, then, is to raise the tax from what we will call 2s. 9d., in round numbers, to 4s. which will leave it at a lower rate than it was before 1,301, much lower than in 1802, and less than a half of what it was during the whole period of the fiercest struggle of the war from 1804 to 1816. Taking the con sumption at 40,000,00 bushels, this would give 2,580,0001., free which I deduct 5 per cent., or 130,0001.—n0t, I be lieve, an unreasonable deduction—for diminished consump tion, and that gives me 2,450,00 a/. from the malt duty, which, added to the 4,440,0001. which I have already charged, makes a total of 6,850,0001., just the amount for which I proposed to ask. Sir, it will be now perceived, to sum this part of the case briefly up, that as the taxes granted in March were 3,307,000/. ' and the taxes now asked being 6,850,000 1 ., this gives the amount of taxes asked from you during the present year at 10,157,000/. Bat, if you set against this all the proposals with respect to the remission of taxation which were enacted in 1,853, but which only came into effect in 1851, they amount to 1,471,09 X., and therefore the net augmented burdens of the country will be 8,683,0001. If, again, you look to the distribution of these burdens, you will find that the in eome tax gives you 6,517,0001.--that is, about two-thirds of the whole additional burden is raised by one single di rect tax on the wealthier class, and about one-third of the whole is to be raised by indirect taxation, affecting the whole consuming people, and therefore all classes alike. We propose to ask for the income tax for the war ; we pro pose to ask for the malt duty also for the war; we pro pose to ask for the duty on spirits without any sort of limitation, because, in fact, it is an advance towards a per manent fiscal improvement. For the sugar duties we ask ter the present time srithorit fixing any point of time at which the present arrangement should cease, because it is a scatter which, when it comes to be finally arranged, may require a great deal of consideration in detail, and, therefore, it is only proposed until that time arrives. Now, Sir, that is the provision which the Government proposes to make for the expenditure that is before them. But there is yet another point upon which it is absolutely necessary I should state the views of the Government to the coin mitteee, and that is what grows out of the consideration that we are now arrived at a state of things in which it is impossible to form the same calculations with regard to the condition of the Exchequer, and the immediate supply of cash which we may usually and safely draw with re gard to other matters. In former times the expenses of the war did not gather very rapidly in the Exchequer, and there was a most rapid and consecutive accumulation of debt in every imaginable form totally irrespective of the funds. But now that great improvements have taken place in the system of accounts I hope we shall be able to pay our way and to avoid all long credit—so that from year to year it may be possible to state to the committee what is the actual condition of the public finances. (Cheers.) I think the committee will agree with use that on entering on the first year of war it will be bestto take a sufficient command of cash. We therefore ask you to give us power, not only to raise, but to expend the sum of 2,100,0001. for extra ordinary purposes ; but we do not think it right even to take that as a limit. To give us a command of cash, we propose to take now, if you will give them, still larger powers for raising money in a case of need, subject, of course, to our responsibility and to the approval of Parlia ment as to what is to be done with it. I will now go a little out of the ordinary course of financial estimates, and will present to the committee a view of what I may call the interim provision which we propose to make ; for even although you give us, as I trust you will, the taxes for which we ask, yet those taxes cannot be realised wholly within the year. And there are other taxes which render it necessary to have a command of cash at a period like the present. For example, if I may refer to such a question, there is the money held in deposit in savings banks. A very great change in the value of money may—without saying in consequence of a panic, but quite apart from a panic—a great change in the value of money may cause the with drawal of deposits, which withdrawal of deposits would be a most expensive thing, and would have to be met by the sale of stock at a time when funds were low. Again, the state of trade might be another cause which would render it necessary to have a command of cash. Undoubtedly, nettling can be more satisfactory than the state of trade at present, bat, at the same time, it would be presumptuous to assume that its elasticity and vigour are to continue altogether unimpaired. Some possible weakness in the revenue ought to be taken into consideration, as well as a . rapid increase in the rate of expenditure. And, of course, , the limited amount of the public balances at the present moment is a further reason why you should esisercise a strict, and even a jealous vigilance over this portion of the arrangements proposed by Government. The point which, however, I am now about, to state is not the question of expenditure so much as that of treating the means which you may expend in case of need, with the approval of Pan lianiont or upon the responsibility of Government, subject • to the approval of Parliament. We ask for a permanent annual provision for taxation—l use the word "perma nent" with reference to the duration of war—a permanent or fixed provision of 6,850,000/. But out of that 6,850,0001. we cannot expect to receive in cash before the sth of April, 1855, more than eramething like the following sums:—ln come-tax, 2?0,000/.; spirits, 400,0001.; sugar, 620,0001.; malt, 1,600,0001.; making in all 2,840,001., which will be the greatest amount, not of the taxes we are now asking for, but which we can expect to have actually at our command before the sth of next April. Deducting that 2,810,0001. from the sum of 6,850,0001., it will explain that on the sth of April, 1855, we ought to expect to be in an arrear of no less than 4,010,000/. That 4,010,0001. is the sum which Government ought to have ample ample means of raising, and even, perhaps, something more. The proper means of raising it, according to the view of Government, is through tho medium of temporary securities. These temporary securities might be in the usual form of Exchequer-bills, or they might be in the form of an instrument which was first mentioned, at least first mentioned to the house, with a practical view last year, and which, although the cir cumstance did not suit its introduction at the rate of in. terest then proposed, was generally, I believe, considered a convenient and desirable form of public securities—l mean Exchequer-bonds. And here I must say there are two charges which appear to have been made against Go vernment, and against myself in particular, which are of a most gratuitous, and I will even go further and say, of a most foolish character. It has been stated that, after having pledged ourselves on the 6th of March to ask for no loan, we gave notice on the 21st of April that we intended to have a loan. doubt that would have been a serious delinquency on the part of Government if there happened so be a word'of truth in it; but in that slight and im portant element, excellent so far as the point is concerned, the truth is totally wanting. (Laughter and cheers.) We never pledged ourselves on the 6th of March that there should be a loan, and there was no loan on the 21st of April. (Laughter.) What was said on the 6th of March was this : —I stated, by the instruction of my colleagues, that it was impossible to give any pledge or to tie ourselves to any abstract declaration, that we felt strongly it was the duty and policy of the country to make a great effort from its own resources, but I never attempted to bind our discretion or the discretion of Parliament with reference to a loan. (Hear, hear.) What appeared on the 21st of April was no loan at all, but a provision for the temporary raising of money. If those who have spoken of it as a loan had had the patience to wait and wave the discussion of the plan until it was before Parliament, they would have known the intention was to take power, in case the money was found to be more than was needed, to employ it in the redemption, as far as might be convenient, of cer tain public securities. This is a totally different opera. tion from a loan; and the mere question would be, con sidering the rate of interest or the amount of Exchequer bills, what would be the most convenient form of making a temporary interim provision for the publio necessities? Although the operation contemplated was to the extent of 6 ,000,000/. of money, the sending in of Exchequer-billkas Well as Exchequer-bonds, was invited in the various no tices issued, and therefore, from that circumstance , the char ac t er of the operation is entirely distinguished from that of a l oan. The ro proposal with respect to Exchequer bonds wag, that tenders p should be invited to the amount of 2,000,0001, for bonds that were to be liquidated at par in the year 1858, for 2,000,0001. to be liquidated in the year 1859, and for 2,0'0,000/. to be liquidated in the year 1860. Now, of these bonds only a limited portion was to be taken. On the 2d of May, when the tenders were sent in, it appeared that the sum of 1,370,0001. was the whole amount for which tenders was given. There was no quarrel or question at all as to the rate of interest, because the sealed price fixed for the first class of bonds at 981. 155., and out of the whole amount of tenders sent in four fifths, or 1,113,0004., was either at the sealed price, or within a very small fraction of it. But tenders were not sent in. The list has been kept open since that time, and at present I believe, though I cannot state it with perfect minute ness, the state of the case is, that bonds A have been taken except a very small amount, and no appreciation has been taken upon bonds C and D. At present the position of the matter is this, that a trifle below 2,000,0001. upon bonds A only has been tendered for. It may fairly be asked, what is the cause of these Exchequer-bonds not having been taken ? It was not that they were at a rate of interest that was too low, because the capitalists of the . country are certainly accustomed to lend money at low rates of interest ; but the cause of the failure is a cause that may be mentioned without the slightest scruple, without the slightest doubt, and without the smallest re proach to anybody. The practice obtaining in former wars has been, not to make any effort to meet oven the first charges from the annual resources of the country, but it has been to borrow largely on stocks, and the fortunes made on those stocks have been so gigantic that the open ing of a war is not less distinguished for the opportunities it affords to contractors than for the opportunities it affords to heroes. I should certainly be surprised if we were not anxious to avoid the policy of Mr. Pitt in 1793, and adhere rather to the wiser policy he attempted to pursue at a later period—a policy which would not lead to the creation of enormous amounts of stock, entailing upon posterity many millions, many tens of millions—ay, some hundreds of millions of debt—ever to be liquidated in hard money, but which originally figured as mere ciphers of stock. That that policy is not to be pus sued cannot be expected to be a popular announcement ; and of course ' so long as the policy might rest on the mere will of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the First Lord of the Treasury, it is not to be expected that the power would be despised. But in my opinion, it does not rest with the executive Govern ment what is the policy to be pursued. It rests rather with this house. The Government ask this house, what is its view ? and when this house, by its intelligible vote upon the proposals of Government, has indicated its opi nion on the policy to be pursued, and the house has taken and made its choice between the two courses—the one to raise loans at once, the other to make a reasonable effort first of all from the annual resources of the country, when the house by its intelligible vote has declared its view upon that subject, it would no longer be the Chancellor of the Exchequer or his proposal, but what the house proposes, that should take effect. The proposal we now make is in conformity with our proposal as to taxes. It is to this effect—to give us interim funds, and to give us a commend of cash which would afford us that margin in the expendi ture which we ought to have. We propose to confirm the contracts entered into with respect to bonds A, and to issue, at the diecretion of the Lords of the Treasury, a second series of bonds for another 2,000,0001. either now or at a future clay. We also propose to take power to issue 2,000,0031. of Exchequer-bills, and as many more Exchequer-bills as shall not be taken off the 4,030,0001. bonds. At first sight this would appear to give us a command of 6,000,000/. of money. It does not, how ever, give 119 quite so much, because a sum amount ing to some hundred thousand pounds-500,0001., to my certain-knowledge —of the tenders sent in, has been an exchange of Exchequer-bills, and is not, therefore, au effec tive addition to cash. The effective addition to cash is 5,500,0001., and that may be made applicable to services approved by Parliament or to the liquidation of public securities. Perhaps it may be agreeable to the committee that I should here state to thorn, in a few words, what is not a financial estimate nor a tax estimate, but a cash esti mate—an estimate of the cash which will be at command between April the sth, 1854, and April the sth, 1855. I will first of all take the charges we have to make. The expenditure for which you provided on the 6th of March, was 56,189.000/. ; the new estimates amount to 6,000,0001. and there will be a sum of 850,0001., in addition to the vote of credit, making a total estimated demand fur cash of 63,039,000/. The revenue estimated on the 6th of March, for 1851-55, was 53,319,1 001., and the income tax then granted of 3,307,0001., raises it to 56,656,300/. You then voted 1,750,0001. Exchequer Bills (of which 1,250,00)/. are already issued), raising the revenue to 58,106,0001. Out of the new taxes you are now asked to vote, we expect to get, before the sth of April,lBss, 2,810,0001., and the Exchequer Bonds and Exchequer Bills now asked for amount to 5,500,00 0 /. Adding these two items, which amount to 8,340,0001., to the sum of 53,406,000 1 ., you have a total provision of 66,746,0001.„ with a probable amount to charge of 63,039,000/. The margin taken, therefore, will amount to 3,707,0001., or, to be secure, say, 3,500,0001. I need not state that what I am now speaking of is entirely distinct fr.= surplus iucome. lam asking for the me ins of creating cash to be available for necessary purposes that may be hereafter required. I have now stated the bulk of our proposals, and I want further to acquaint the commit tee with the order in which I propose to take them. I propose to ask the committee to do upon the present occa sion that which, without any prejudice to the vote or view of any individual member of this house, has been done on all former occasions—namely, to grant to us, with respect to the taxes upon consumption, the formal sanction of the resolution in committee, so as to enable us to raise the charge on goods and thereby prevent evasion of the duty. I have said that this has been done upon all former occa sions ; but I ought, with some reproach to myself, to ex empt the case of the Irish spirit duty in the budget of last year, for in the multitude of subjects with which I had to deal, I omitted to make the application, and a day's delay was the consequence. I don't think, under the cironm staneee, that any harm was done ; for, in point of fact, the revenue officers, anticipating that the usual course would be followed, had already proceeded to raise the charge upon the various commodities. (Laughter.) That, however, is a house I should not like to trust-to on all occasions, and, as the question involved is a question of a good many hundred thousand pounds, I am sure the com mittee will approve of our taking the usual course of re• questing a vote upon those portions of taxation which affect consumable articles. In that case it will be my duty to ask for an immediate vote—but without the slightest prejudice to the future discussion of the subject—upon the Excise duty on spirits, the Excise duty on malt, the Excise duty ou sugar, the Customs' duty on sugar, and the Cus toms' duty on spirits, and likewise on Exchequer bonds so far as relates to the completion of contracts. With regard to practice, it has been the uniform practice for the house immediately to pronounce its opinion. What I have now stated is the plan of the Government ; but at the same time the Government are told that they are deeply censur able—and apparently, in the opinion of some, disqualified from proposing a plan on such a subject by misconduct im puted not so much to them, as to myself individually. The charges which have relation to myself are charges in regard to the management of the balances at the bankers', and in regard to the management of the cash credit ; and they do not connect themselves with the permanent admi nistration of finance. But we are also deeply charged as respects the permanent administration of finance, for we told that we have made a wanton sacrifice of great por tions of the public revenue, and have, in consequence, de prived the country of resources of which it ought to have been in possession at the commencement of the war, and this, too, when although Parliament was not aware that a war was about to take place, yet the Government must have been aware that it was inevitable. (" Hear, hear," from the Opposition benches.) Perhaps those cheers are an affirmation to the charge. At any rate, the charge has been made, though it has been certainly made in inconsis tent terms, and I am curious to see what kind of effort will be made to piece them together in the course of dis cussion. While the right hon. baronet the member for Droitwich (Sir J. Pakington) asserts in the strongest terms that the war could not have been avoided, his right hon. friend the member for Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli) asserts that nothing would have been easier than to have avoided it, and that, in point of fact, if it had not been for one single man the Government could not have helped avoiding it. (Laughter and cheers.) With respect to the charge which has been brought against the Government, it amounts to neither more nor less than this—that we be lieved an European Sovereign would act in conformity with his pledges, and in conformity with his interests, and that he has placed himself in a position which we are equally at a loss to reconcile with his pledges or his in terests. (Cheers.) Ile has placed himself in a position where ho sees the whole moral strength of Europe, aye, an d i n a f e w days, nearly the whole physical strength of Europe, arrayed against him. It is not necessary for me to eater into the question of what Government might have foreseen on the subject, but I do mean to touch upon the absurd charge brought against Government, that by the measures of last year they surrendered the public) revenue. 3."1 - ever was anything more grossly wide of the truth, (Cheers.) Now, what was the case when we came into office ? Did we find the public revenue in such a state that it was open to us to let it alone if we pleased ? t (Cheers.) What was the conditio n of the income tax at moment ? From year to yea r it was the sub j ect of discussion whether it should be continued or not. , (Cheers from the Ministerial benches.) In the opinion of r. Pitt it was impracticable to reconstruct it so as to make it sa tisfactory; Sir Robert Peel found it impossible; and the opinion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer under Sir Robert Peel was, that it was utterly visionary to 'attempt it. Indeed, the opinion obtained such cur rency, that the renewal of the itldetdd tax, ttPdti tll4 condition of reconstructing, or, as it was then called, " dif ferentiatine. it, was found impossible. (Cheers.) Was that true or not? Row has the right hon. gentleman oppo site dealt with the subject? The right hon. gentleman found it consistent with his duty to himself and to the country to offer to settle it without having formed aug' plan upon it. He promised to do that which Mr. Pitt could not do, which gir Robert Peel could not do, fitly which even ho himself did not know how to do. (Laughter and cheers.) He told us he proposed to fix the rate on Schedule A at 7d., on Schedule 0 at 'td., on &heti-tiled D and Eat 5d., but when my right hon. friend the First Lord of the Admiralty (Sir James Graham) and the right hon. member for Portsmouth (Sir F. Baring) showed the intolerable absurdities the right hon. gentleman must coin• mit in redeeming that pledge, the right host. getttioniart said he had not had time to look at tho schedules. (Laugh ter.) The meaning of that was, that he had not had time which to Pitt a w nd ill R. Peel impracticable, thatth ewi sh a b n u , t intention of a large majority of the house wag , that we should not renew the income tax except on condition of , to forma lan, or to ascertain if that was practicable Peei remembered found office, set ourse l ve s to the most serious consideration we discussed it again and again, we turned it over and over, placed it in every posssible light in which it to that co nc l us i on to which Mr. Pitt and Sir Robert which th e r i g ht lion. gentleman promised , nevertheless, to perform. (C on ti n ued laughter.) This was the great fact that conf ron t e d u s ,---the income tax was dead and rOnd when ou r fi nan ci a l statement was made, and, so far front surplus, we had a deficiency of 4,700,0001 . With regard to the in c o me t ax , the renewal of that tax was a matter reconstructing it. We, f r om the very first day we entered of the s u bj ec t ; we obtained every aid in omit power, be placed before the house, and at length we came Peel had come—the conclusion was that it was impossible to reconstruct the income-tax so as to frame a measure:which Parliament might in justice, or even in decency, pass ; and I see now before me an hon. member who, having been of an opposite opinion, stated in this house, that after the examination the subject had received he could not settle finally in that opinion. But then we said we distinguished between the feelings which led to the desire for the recon struction of the income tax and the practicability of the particular form upon which that feeling was based ; we said, what you feel is this—that property pays too little and intelligence pays too much ' • we have inquired int o the nature o f the income tax, and we find we cannot redre ss you throu g h th e i nc ome tax, we will find and we found that other mode of redress in the succession tax—(Minis terial cheers)—and yet when we came to give that redress, to remove the unequal burden upon intelligence, and to put a little more upon property, insteadof being rewarded for our pains, we incurred bitter opposition from the right hon. gentleman—no, I beg the right hon. gentleman's par 40F for tho word—We incurred not the bitter opposition, but we incurred the stout and strenuous opposition of the right hon. gentleman. For the last month a great deal has been said about the finances of 1853, and any one who knew nothing of the proceed hies of Parliament in 1853, or listened only to the statements of those hon. gentlemen, might sup pase we were passing in discussion the whole of that time nothing but minor stock. They forget the 40 divisions and the 20 or 30 nights during which we were persuading the house to effect groat financial reforms opposed by the right hon. gentleman upon the opposite side. (Hear, hear.) We ' were persuading the house to reform the income tax, to convert it from that state of weakness, from that state of discredit, from that state of danger to the public into which it had fallen, into a powerful engine of finance, and to place it again in that position in which alone it ought to be if we should have it at all—in a condi tion to be available for the purposes of war as well as of peace—(cheers)—and by your aid we were enabled to place it in that position, and so to deal with it that it might prove competent to bear the pressure of the amplification now proposed. We were enabled, by your aid, to pass the succession duty—a measure most difficult in its details, al though most moderate in its provisions—a measure formed undoubtedly upon the principle of abating the extreme claims upon all sides, but, at the same time, a measure the passing of which I do not hesitate to say, while it adds enormously to the stability and permanency of your finances, adds no less to your political stability. (Hear.) These things were done ; the income tax was reformed, the soap duties was abolished, the reformation of the stamp duties, admirably begun by my right hon. friend many years before, was continued, the assessed taxes were recon structed and reduced from complexity and anomally and injustice to a system. By your aid and your generous con fidence, and °query to the approval of the community at large, these things were done, and now, when we have come to a time of war, it is said the conversion of minor stocks, forsooth, was the employment of 1853 ; and more, these measures of last year are referred to as the abandon ment of income. No, sir, he who abandons the income of the country is the man who promises to carry into effect impracticable measures, without ever considering the ways and means by which such measures are to be carried out. (Cheers.) On the contrary, we say we induced you, and you readily followed us in our earnest efforts to effect these changes, and you left the finance of the country in a 1 condition—on the eve of war, at the very threshold of a great struggle—so satisfactory, that the surplus on the revenue of the year, after all these improvident operations, amounted to no less than 3,500,00e1. (Cheers.) Well, sir, that was the conduct of the Government, and, now, what other matters are there for me to show ? Shall we be told that the burdens and charges you have agreed to lay upon the country aro burdens and charges which ought to be met by a loan ? Surely, if I may venture to speculate upon the conduct of the committee, I think, on the whole, it will be felt that if we are to proceed by a general adjustment and distribution of the taxes recommended, painful as the operation may be, that general adjustment is not an unfair ono. We have called upon the wealthy and the compara tively wealthy to pay two-thirds ; we have divided the other third between the entire community, and we have chosen those articles upon which taxation would appear to effect the least mischief in proportion to the amount of revenue to be raised. (Ministerial cheers.) I don't think on the detail of these taxes it will be possible to induce the committee to entertain much doubt ; but there may be those who think with those gentlemen associated with what is called the moneyocracy out of the house. Gentle men in the house will perform their duty to the people and the Government by considering the public policy; still there are those who will talk of the inconvenience of a tax, or of its unpopularity, raising a cry which has always been raised with respect to questions between this and that tax, and objections that can be raised against all taxes, and I do not doubt there are gentlemen here as well as elsewhere who will say—" Abandon altogether these financiering notions, and let us fall back upon the comfortable expedi ent of a loan." I beg the committee will recollect that if there is any one man in this country who beyond every other, except perhaps a capitalist—if there is any one man in the country who as regards his feelings of personal com fort, and who beyond every other has an interest in recom mending recourse to a loan, it is the individual who has the honour of filling the high and important office of Chancellor of the Exchequer. (Hear.) That office is an office which any man may be thankful to hold at a time when his occu pation is to deal with those timely resources which wise le gislation has given to him, and to distribute what may well be called the bounty of the Legislature, because it results from the wisdom of Parliament, among the various classes of the community in the remission of charges; but that happy course is woefully changed when there comes on a period of war. It is not only a losing office, but a misera ble and wretched office to be constantly engaged in invent ing the moans of carrying on war, and of drawing fresh taxes from the pockets of the people ; every good motive, and every bad motive combatted only by the desire of the approval of honourable men, and by conscientious recti tude—every motive of ease, of comfort, and of certainty, spring forward in his mind, to induce a Chancellor of the Exchequer to become the first man to recommend a loan. (Hear, hear.) What was it that conferred upon Pitt the title of the Heaven-born Minister? Was not that name invented a little further east? It may not be difficult to trace it, and my honourable friend's historical researches might identify its origin —I always understood that name came from the city of London, and came from the city of London at the time when Pitt embarked this coun try in the miserable policy of meeting the first expendi ture of a revolutionary war by loan, loan, loan. (Cheers ) This is so important that, notwithstanding the demand which I have already made upon your time, I must ask you—and it is the last request which I shall make to-night —to go back with me for a little to the period of that revolutionary war. On a former occasion I referred to the dicta of political economists, and I referred to the moral considerations which seemed to recommend and ren der expedient some efforts to meet the first expenses of the war by means of taxes ; but there is something that is stronger than mere moral speculations, or even the philo sophic calculations of experimentalists ; and that something is to be found in the warnings of history. If. after the records which it has left to you, you will not make an attempt, at least for a reasonable time and within reasonable limits, to avoid a repetition of similar errors, you are not worthy of the people you represent. (Cheers.) Here, Sir, is the war budget of 1792. Mr. Pitt proposed having an excess of charge over ways and means of 4,500,00 a is, taking the income of the country, and taking the charge connected with the first operations of the war. [Mr. Dis raeli here made some observations across the table which were inaudible in the gallery.] I refer to Mr. Pitt with profound respect, but these are errors, and he had great errors. For myself, I feel entitled to look upon him with veneration or otherwise, as I choose to consider ; but I happen to have great veneration for Mr. Pitt, as I will show the right hon. gentleman by and by, and I hope he will then join me in imitating Mr. Pitt's policy; but I am speaking of Mr: Pitt's errors at the commencement of the war in 1793. He heard, no doubt, all those plausibi lities we now hear in great abundance, such as, "Oh, it is all for the benefit of posterity, and why should not poste rity pay for it?" He made a charge of 4,500,0001., not by attempting to fill his Exchequer with the proceeds of taxes, but by sending into the city and asking for a loan of 6,000,0001. Well, he very easily accomplished his desire. There was no unpopularity ; quite the contrary. Great skill—much praise, great erect, everybody well satisfied. Admirable financier ! (Loud cheers.) Why, I must be as blind as a mole not to see that my personal interest would lie, and the interest of Government would have lain in my efforts by this means to get the wheel out of the rut ; but to get the wheel into the rut is a process of much greater simplicity. He proposed a loan of 6,000,0001. to be added to the sinking fund at an interest of 4 per cent., amounting to 240,000/. ; and, in order to meet that, ho imposed new taxes to the amount of 287,0001. That was the first year of his calculation with respect to the war, and for the first year you may perhaps say it was of no great moment. Mr. Pitt thought ho would got that loan at 4 per cent., but he did not get the 4,500,0001. for less than 4/. 3s. 4d. What was the second step in 1794? He then borrowed 11,000,0001., and paid 41. 10s. 9d. per cent. ; in 1793 he borrowed 18,000,0001., and paid V. 15s. Bd. per cent. ; in 1790 he borrowed 25,500,000 1 ., at 41.135. 53. ; in 1797 he borrowed 3e,500,00 V., at SI. 14s. 10d. per cent. Only observe the circlet of the policy that was Heaven-born. In 1798 he borrowed 1/,000,000/., at 61.45. 93. per cent., and, such were the evil eel - Irene to which he went, that for that 1.7,000,000/. alone he added 34,00 ),0001. to the capital of the national debt, and for the operations of these six years, unetieeeelfal and inefficient for the pur pose of war, he added, in hatil int:they, 108,500,0001., arid, in point of fact, he added nearly 24900,000 e to the capi tal of the country. (Hear, hear.) My wieh is to lay it open before you, .and it is for you to decide whether you will adopt similar principles. I said that I had veneration for Mr. Pitt's measures, and I will now show you what he did when he became sensible of hie errors. He saw ruin groWing on the country; he saw the shsteeption of its re sources ; and he determined to make a gallattteffort to re trieee himself. In 1797 he made his first effort. He pro posed to taise 7,000 1 0001. by assessed taxes. That plan broke down —other plane ) it Odell - is, break down occasionally besides those of the present day iliat plan broke down, and he only got 4,000,0001. Not (landed tel his failure, he came forward and proposed to raise 10,000,00;i and rom that time forward his whole course was one series of forttitmed and oonvulsive efforts to recover himself, to extricate his country from the frightful consequences of the former le l , ity, and provide for the recurrence of similar circum stances. As to the amount of this Income, I believe I should not be stating it too highly if I,Were to say that, as far as our national debt stands at this moment, not less thee. 059,090,000/. has been added to it for 'which the na tion never reeefeed a single penny—that was the offering sacrificed to capital and thrown in as bonuses and in ducements to subscribe to these loans. 250,000,0001. of capital I don't believe is an extravagant estimate of the lees consequent upon the enormous errors Which had been committed. That was the opening of the sinkfrtg fund ; they were continually buying up stock at 3, or 4, or fi per wet., and creating it at a higher rate at the same time ; it Was like a seton in the human body, a perpetual drain on the resources of the country, in addition to the other sad eircrinestances of the time. But, as I said before, the effort of Mr. Pitt was one that ought to be placed upon re cord; he saw the error of the practice of rushing on the first inducement to a loan ; he saw and lamented the effects of that want of moral courage, not in himself alone, bee in the country—for undoubtedly he represented the pttlelie etfetiments of the country in what he did, It was the error of the nation, and, God knows, the nation tog fered for it. (Hear, hear.) But Mr. Pitt proposed an in. C(ithd tat. He said : " Gentlemen will recollect that in the debates upon the subject of the assessed taxes last session two fundamental principles were established as the rule.by which we should be guidBd iii presiding for the supplies for the service of the year. Theee. *ere first to reduce the total amount to be at present raised hls et loan ; and next, as far as it was not reducible, to reduc e it to such a limit that no m ore loans I should be raised than a tempoeery tax should defray within a limited time," And therefore M r , rat, after six y e ars of war, and in the Midst efthe eoAtietion which it produced, pro posq. to add tio 1038 theft tihntit. 4o ,fie cent. to the revere.l° the cod colge try. With a view, if Ile Midi of putting a et." farther addition of all be promisee permanent ittirdens non the cenn; try, he raised a surplus in the year ; and, if "Ything, it was to be exhausted, as he thought, within a allant limited nu m ber of eats. That was a g reat and g proposal ; and I hope the ti lit .hon. gentlem an will join me in the t r ib u t e o f respect With retlerd to that most im portant measure and that he is prepared to apt with us and support a similar policy. The King's speech of 1799 referred to that policy, and his Majesty said, addressing the House of Commons : " Gentlem e n o f th e House of Commons, —The unusual sacrifices which you have made in the present moment, on behalf of my subjects, aro wisely calculated to meet effectually the exigencies of this great crisis. They have at the same time gi -en additional security to public credit, by establish ing a system of finance beneficial .alike to yourselves and to p ost erity ; and the cheerfulness with which these heavy bur dens are supported evince at once the good sense, the loyalty, and the public spirit of the people." That was the proposal of Mr. Pitt in 1798, at once to raise the sum of 10,000,0001. towards meeting the expenses of the war. In 1798 the the revenue was 23,100,000/.; in 1798 it was 25 ,600,0001.; but the excess continued to show it was not pos- sible to keep it down altogether, even by these aids. Sub- 1 sequently, in 1803, the revenue had got up to 38,600,0001., and in 1805, the last year of Mr. Pitt's life, the revenue of this country amounted to no less than 50,900,0001.—a further increase of 12,300,0001. with a view to the expenses of the war. In 1806 the Marquis of Lansdowne was Chan cellor of the Exchequer, the full income tax was put on and raised the revenue from 50,900,0001. in 1805. to 59,300,0001. in 1807, being an increase of 8,400,000 1 . From 1806 to 1816 the revenue was never below 60,000,000 1 :, and for some time past it has been no less than 70,000,000 1 . Such was the idea that England, Ireland, and Scotland entertained as to the efforts they ought to make from their own resources for the purpose of meeting the expenditure of what they thought should be necessary. One single in stance of this has been shown by Mr. MiCulloch, who points out the fact that the whole real accumulation of our debt has been owing to the arrears of the early part of the war-1806. This is most important—that between 1806 and the year 1816, such were the noble and wonderful efforts of the country to do its duty that the sum raised was amply sufficient to put the expenditure of the civil government of the country and the whsle outlay required by the war in this great and glorious year and the interest of the debt in the same condition as the debt stood before 1793 ' • but the accumulation which came between 1793 and 1806 they were never able to overtake—so much of the accumulation was still going on. (Cheers.) That was the picture which Mr. Pitt and his successors entertained ; that was the idea they had of their duty to their country and posterity. Now, in those days when the Duke of Wellington was covering the British name with fresh glory, —in those days your fathers thought they were fighting for the advantage of posterity ; and yet you see the efforts they made to meet those expenses. I ask you, are you worthy descendants of those who did these great acts'? If so, you can honour the man who came forward to the latest day of his life to im prove the financial position of the country? What is our ease? We are now enjoying the fruits of 40 years' peace, and the reduction of our burdens to a marvellous extent. We now come to make these demands upon you to show what you are, and to try what metal you are made of. We don't ask you—God forbid that !—to enter into any engagement to bind yourselves by any abstract re solution, but I ask you to take the steps put before you and give us the means of carrying on a just and neces sary war, which has been forced on us, by adding to the the taxation of the country a sum of 10,000,0001., and we say that it is not an unreasonable effort to make. We have laid our policy before you, and defended our selves against the charges and the imputations thrown out, and we say it is not unreasonable for you to go to 1798. Can you not do now what Mr. Pitt and the Englishmen of that day did then, when the population of the country was not half so great as in the present day ? Their im ports were not one-quarter of the imports of the present day ; their exports and their trade were not one-third of the exports of the present day, for where they had an ex port of 33,000 0001. you have now an export of 98,000,0 All. Such is the indomitable vigour, and such the wonderful elasticity of our trade that, even under the disadvantage of a bad harvest and under the pressure of war, the im ports from day to day, and almost from hour to hour, are increasing, and the very last papers laid on the table within 48 hours show that within the last three months of the year there is 250,0001. increase in your exports. This is your position, and these are the circum stances under which we wish to appeal to you in the hope that you will consider that appeal just and reasonable. We leave it in your hands with confidence, believing that the Parliament and the people of this country will, without hesitation, pursue that course which their duty may de mand. (The right hon. gentleman resumed his seat, after having spoken for three hours and a half, amid the cheers of the house.) The resolutions, in conformity with the right hon. gen tleman's speech, were then read by the Chairman. Mr. DISRAELI said that he could not consent to the passing of the resolution without a more distinct arrange ment than any that had apparently been made for the dis cussion of the general question They had had to-night a very large proposition made by the Minister, involving to a considerable extent the annual taxation of the country, and indeed, of taxation, of more than an annual charac ter. They had also a plan of what had been called interim finance, which, in his opinion, required to be carefully considered. In every instance in which a great scheme of taxation had been brought forward, a fair opportunity had always been given for the country to consider it. It was most unreasonable, after the statement from the Chan cellor of the Exchequer of several hours, that the House of Commons should be called on to give any decision either one way or the other on the measures submitted to them. He wished, therefore, that the Government would fix a day for taking the scheme into consideraaion. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the uniform course always had been to press at once any resolution relating to the duty on articles of consumption. That had always been the case with one exception last session, the result of a blunder of his own. If that course were not taken the entire duty would be lost. That rule had always been acted on, but with the understanding that every member remained unpledged to the proposal before them. He spoke in the presence of several mem hers of great experience on this point, and they could, cor rect him if he was wrong. Mr. DISRAELI thought that the right hon. gentle. man had evaded the question. There might not be any doubt as to the rule in such cases, and he should not have isen if the hon. gentleman had accompanied his request by fixing a day for the discussion of the subject. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that his noble friend would fix a day for the discussion. Lord J. RUSSELL said that he would fix that day week (Monday next) for the discussion. Mr. DISRAELI said, that of course the resolutions would be printed. Lord J. RUSSELL answered in the affirmative. Mr. T. BARING said that the proposal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to the effect that the equalisation of the spirit duties should come into operation to-morrow (this day), was inconsistent with the agreement which had been upon a former occasion entered into—namely, that that equalisation should not take place until the sth July. The operation of the resolution of the right hon. gentleman would be that colonial sugars should pay to-morrow lle., whether it was British or foreign produce. The right hon. gentleman proposed to raise the duty noon colonial sugar is., while he meant to reduce the duty on foreign sugar by the same amount. He hoped the right hon. gentleman would not persist in pressing that resolution. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER admitted that there was some force in the observations of the hon. member. At the same time he must observe that in taking the course which he had proposed for the adoption of the house, he was acting in strict accordance with precedent. Mr. HUME entertained some doubt whether the house was not, in consequence of the act which had been passed to the effect that the equalisation of the duty upon sugar was not to take place until July, precluded from effecting any alteration in that duty until that time had arrived. Mr. E. BALL was of opinion that the house ought to pause before any resolution which proposed a considerable increase in the malt tax should be adopted. The right hon. gentleman, in bringing forward that resolution, was acting most unkindly towards the agricultural classes ; and if he (Mr. Ball) were at all supported by the house, he should resist the proposition of the right hon. gentleman. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought the best mode of meeting the views of hon. members oppo site with respect to the equalisation of the duties upon sugar would be to move an addition of 15 per cent. to the present duty, to be raised upon both foreign and colonial sugar until July. The resolution before the house might then be brought into operation. Mr. HUME had some doubt whether the house, if it were to assent to that course, would not be guilty of a breach of faith. Mr. VANCE believed that if the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer were to raise the duty upon Irish spirits beyond its present amount, illicit distil lation must to a great extent be the consequence. Mr. BENTINCK wished to say a few words in support of the view which had been taken by his hon. friend the member for Cambridge (Mr. E. Ball), with reference to the proposal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in relation to the malt tax. A more unjust, or a more monstrous propo sition never had, in his opinion, been made to the house. He should not, upon that occasion, go into the details of the question. He could not, however, refrain from allud ing to the observations which bad fallen from the right hon. geutleman with respect to the justice of the proposi tion which provided that all classes of the community should bear their fair share of the expenses of a war , which had been undertaken for the benefit of the country at large. It was scarcely consistent, in his opinion, with the spirit of those observations that one class, and that a ' class which had not been particularly favoured by legisla tion of late years, should be called upon to pay 2,450,0001. out of 6,800,0001. of taxation. Mr. W. WILLIAMS gave notice that he should move, either as an amendment or as a resolution in committee, the following proposition :—" That the duty upon succes sion to real property shall be paid six months, instead of four years and a half, after the succession, as provided by the ad of last session ; that the same amount of property tax shall. be paid upon succession to real property as is now paid upon'porsonal property ; likewise, that a duty shall be imposed upon corporate and ecclesiastical property in the same proportion as that which is now levied upon all other descriptions of property." If that resolution were adopted, it was his opinion that the Chancellor of the Ex chequer would be placed in possession of a sum of 3,000,0001. sterling within the next three months. Mr. CRAUFURD was - understood to object to the pro posed measure of the spirit duties in Scotland. The CHAIRMAN then put the first resolution, relating to the increase of the duty upon spirits, which was agreed to. The next resolution, relating to the increase upon the malt tax, having been put, Mr. SPOONER said he hoped that in agreeing to the resolution they would not be su pposed to be giving their ass ent to the principle that the expenditure of the year should be raised within the year. The resolution was then agreed to. The CHAIRMAN then put the resolution relating to the increase of the spirit duty in Ireland. The resolution was agreed to. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The in come tax resolutions, of course, will stand over. As to the resolutions in reference to the Exchequer Bonds, I hope the house will sanction the completion of what Government have contracted for. I propose to take the first resolution relative to the Exchequer Bonds, the mode of making them a c harge on the Consolidated Fund, and the payment of interest on them. The 3d, 6th, 7th, and Bth resolutions, I shall postpone. The other resolutions I submit to the house, as it is the uniform practice of the house to g i v e a n immediate judgment on money contracts, when entered into by the minister. Mr. DLSRA.ELI—If the resolution is proposed it will lead to a very long discussion. The merits of the right hon. gentleman's scheme are involved in it, and it might be inconvenient to propose it now. I hope the right hon. gentleman will defer the resolution until the general dis cussion. Lord J. iIIiISSELL—It was important for the public credit that corttracts of this sort, when laid before the house, should be sanctioned, or otherwise, at once. • Mr. DISRAELI—If the resolution is passed without reference to the general scheme, I shall feel it my duty to take some further step. The resolution may not be in conformity with the present practice, but as this resolution is connected with taxation it requires argument. At pre sent, to ask the house to pass the resolution is to ask it to sanction the raising of a loan by a process which I think is based upon false principles. The objection of the noble lord that to postpone the resolution will injure public credit, Ido not think of very groat importance. No one can suppme any injury to the public credit can arise from that course. It might as well be arg . ued that injury to the public would arise if we did not at once vote all the taxes required for the supply of her Majesty. Ido not think there is much strength in such an arem ent. If Govern ment insists on passing the resolution it I fear, lead to a long discussion and an d w ebate. I hope, gentleman will remember his therefore, that the right hon. gtio promise, and not press the . res i o was Mr. GLYN—The deposit, 00,UUU/epaid into the Bank this day. Mr. Ria u Tr4s not pimps of the custom, and would, therefore, appeal to the authority of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He knew of no authority by which the Chan cellor of the Exchequer could raise a loan without coming to th at house. He agreed with the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Disraeli), that it would be better not to go into discussion now, for he thought a better mode of raising money might be suggested than that which had been adopted—namely, a loan raised without the knowledge or authority of Par- liament. (Hear.) Sir C. WOOD—The universal practice was for a Chan cellor of the Exchequer to make a loan, and then to come to Parliament for its sanction. The practice was an inva riable one, and therefore in perfect conformity with the precedents of former times. When I held the post of Chan cellor of the Exchequer, I raised a small loan in 1847 that way. It is the usual custom for the First Lord of the Treasury to enter into arrangement with parties for a loan subject to the approval of Parliament. (Hear, hear). It was quite wrong to say that it was necessary the sanction of Parliament should first be given to a loan. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—the ques tion was one as to sanctioning a contract on the part of Government ; with regard to the practice, the present course is strictly analogous to previous proceedings. By the First Lord of tho Treasury a contract has been entered into, and it is brought to Parliament to adopt or reject it. Parliament are free to reject the contract if they think fit, but the invariable practice is to adopt the contract then and there. Parliament never allows such contracts to re main in suspense, but they come to a vote at once when the question is before them. The only deviation from the usual practice is this, that, whereas it was the practice for Chancellors of the Exchequer to make the contract known for the first time when they laid the matter before Parlia ment, I circulated the resolution in the course of the day, and hon. rnetohers have had time to consider it fully before they vote upon it t • The practice of Parliament ought not,. I think, to be light,ly altered. The Louse may discuss the question, and may c cnsure the minister if they think fit, but the practice has ai ways been to adopt or reject the con- tract at once. Mr. HUME—Wh a t u," understood to be the practise was that the Chancellor of C'e Exchequer made a contract, but did not receive money till allowed to do so by Parlia ment. In this case money had been received, and his ob jections was that the house had mever till now heard that any payment had been made. The former practice was by tender, and when a person was accepted, the fact was an nounced in the presence of the partics. He understood no such course had been adopted in the present instance. Parties knew nothing as to the tender— the public knew nothing about the tender. He was sure ne.' instance had occurred where money was taken without first coming to that house since he had been in Parliament. Whenever established rules were departed from they were sure to go wrong. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the first resolution. Mr. HUME wished to know what the tender was. ? Mr. DISRAELI—The precedent quoted did not apply to this case. In 1847 no deposit was made until the .sanc tion of Parliament to the loan had been given. (Hear..) Sir C. WOOD believed it was the uniform practice . to have a deposit at the time of making the contract. Mr. DISRAELI had noticed the point, but his maim objection did not rest upon it. There was no identity or analogy in raising money by loan and the case before them. By this resolution the right hon. gentleman not only raised a loan, but ho fixed a day for its repayment. The right hon. gentleman came forward and proposed taxes for the purpose of repayment ; therefore, if the house was called upon to sanction the resolution at that moment, the whole scheme must be gone into. The principle of raising money by loan and fixing a day for repayment was an extremely dangerous one, and he thought the house ough t not to sanction it. Therefore, he must say he should feel it to be his duty to prevent the house from coming ko a vote by proposing some amendment which would virtu ally ask the house to suspend the resolution until they .`gad the whole scheme before them. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—As to the question of any deviation from former practices, there ',veil a difficulty in ascertaining what the former practice wt.'s. Strange as it might seem there was no record precedent for the guidance of Government—memory was depended upon for the details, which were to be collected as best they could. No doubt his right hon. friend was right in saying that the usual practice was to open tenders in the presence of the parties themselves. On the present occa sion the tenders were to be as low as 1,0001., and on ac count of the number of tenders it would have been incon venient to have all the parties present. The terms of the contract sent out to the world were according to usage ; the only change was that instead of the tenders being opened in the presence of the governor and deputy-gover nor of the Bank of England and the party, they warn opened in the presence of the Bank authorities only, and. the result was made known to the parties who tendered the following morning. There was no disposition on his part to take the control of these matters out of the hands of Parliament. Government were responsible for what they tendered to the house, and the house were not bound by what Ministers did. Parties tendered on their own risk, and as it had always been the practice for the house to give judgment of such contracts on the moment, he was. convinced the house would not deviate from a salutary practice. Mr. T. BARING did not think the right hon. gentleman would be damaged by t lking the sense of the house on the question ; on th contrary, the discussion would very much facilitate the conclusion. The right hon. gentleman had referred to France, the Government of which had raised money by public subscription ; but it must be recollected that the principle was first sanctioned by legislative autho rity, and then submitted to the public; but in this case the right hon. gentleman submitted it to the public, and then came to Parliament for its sanction. In the first instance, the experiment was successful, in the last it was the lea.. verse. Ho presumed the right hon. gentleman did not. mean to issue immediately more bonds than would cover the deposit. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would, at a future day, bring the resolutions before the committee. Mr. HILDYARD asked the house to consider what they were about. It was said this was a formal vote, which did not pledge the house to anything, and that the house were not, by the vote, bound to accede to the terms which had been contracted for. But this was not a formal vote. He was satisfied, if it passed, the house would be concluded by it ; and if so, were the house to come to a decision ma such an important matter on so short a consideration of it ?' No one would be prejudiced by a short delay —say a week —for the interest would be running on, and parties would take it from this data. If no one else came forward he should take the sense of the house on the question of de ferring the resolution. Lord J. RLTSSELL said the question was, whether the house would depart: - from established precedent. What he proposed was, that th resolution shall be reported at half past, four o'clock to-mori' °w (this day), and that the Chan cellor of the Exchequer slit: old afterwards introduce a bill, which would be considered ..`7 the house on Monday, in conjunction with the rest of al.' financial measures of the Government. pro, a reasonable one, Mr. DISRAELI thought that pro and he was prepared to assent to it. The resolution was then agreed to prlo forma, and the house resumed. The Militia Bill and the Exchequer Bills (16,024,100 1 .) Bill, as amended, were severally considered. The report of supply was brought up and agreed to. The County Court Extension Act Amendment Bill and the Boundary Survey (Ireland) Bill were read each a third time and passed. In reply to a question from Colonel BLAIR, Lord J. RUSSELL said he proposed to make the fartbesr consideration of the Scotch Education Bill the first order of the day for Friday next. CROWN FORESTS. Mr. H. DRUMMOND moved for a select committee to inquire into the present management and condition of the Crown forests in England, with a view of ascertaining the responsibility of the present commissioners, and whether it would be for the public interest that some of the smaller forests - should be sold as being unfit for the growth of timber for her Majesty's navy. Mr. HUME expressed his approval of the motion. Ile believed that if those lands were sold, they would realise a sum sufficient to meet all the expenses of the CroWo. He (Mr. Hume) hoped, therefore, the hon. gentleman would proceed with his motion for a committee. The motion was agreed to. MA.NNING AND PAYING THE NAVY. Sir J. GRAHAM moved for leave to bring in a bill for' the encouragement of seamen, and the more effectual manning of her Majesty's navy during the present war. Also a bill for facilitating the payment of her Majesty's navy, and the payment and distribution of prize, bounty, salvage, and other moneys, to and amongst the officers and crews of her Majesty's ships and vessels of war, and for the better regulation of the accounts relating thereto. They first bill was a prize bill, similar to all former prize bills, with the exception that it male the scale more favourable to the common sailors. It would, of course, end with the war. The second was proposed to be of a.permanent cha racter. After a few words from Mr. Deedes, Sir J. Pecl.tellt Mr. Otway, Sir G. Tyler, and Captain Scobell, Leave was given to bring in the bills. NEWSPAPER STAMPS. Sir J. V. SHELLEY moved for a return of the titles, names, and addresses of publishers ; and of the weight,. and dates of registration, of all registered newspapers,, whereof a portion was published without stamps. Mr. HAYTER said there was no means of snaking the returns asked for by the hon. member. Mr. BRIGHT said all that was wanted was whatever' information the department possessed. Mr. HAY TER could assure the hon. gentleman there was no objection to give as much information as possible ; but if this return were to be made it should be quite coil j ectural. Mr. HENLEY said that if the return were based on, data, however limited, it could not be conjectural. (Hear.) After a few words from Mr. CRA.sam, The house divided— For the motion 36 Against The house adjourned at a quarter to 12 o'clock. PARLIAMENTARY DIVISION. HOUSE OF COMMONS—MAT 8. NEWSPAPERS. Motion made, and question put, " That there be laid before this house a return of the titles, names, addresses of pub: lishers, weight, and dates of registration of all registe r ed newspapers, whereof a portion is published withou s stamps. The house divided ; Ayes 36, Noes 52. AYES-3i. Anderson, Sir J. lladfleld, G. Bankes, Rt Hon G. Hall, Sir B. Bell, J. astie, Alex. Biggs. W.llastie Archd. Blake, M. I. Henley, J. Bright, J. Jolliffe, Sir W. Cecil, Lord R. Kershaw, J. Cobden, R. Laslett, W. Cowan, C. 3l`Cann, J. Crossley, F, March, Earl of Duncan. G. Murrough, .T. Forster, Sir G. Pechell, Sir G. Goderich, Viscount. Phillimore, J. G. Goodman. Str G. Piikington, J. NOES-92. Freestun, Col. W. Gardner, R. (leach, C. George, J. Graham, Sir J. Gregson, S. Herbert, S. ervey, Lord A. Hughes, W. Ingham, R. L9we, B. Luce, T. Macartney, G. Milner, W. li ichell, W. Montgonter, - , Naas, Lord O'Brien, I'. Paget, Lord Mchardson, J. &holed°ld, NV. Scobell, Capt. G. Stuart, Lord D. Taylor, Lt.-Col. J. Tomline, G. Warner, E. Williams, W. TELLER• Shelley, Sir J. Craufurd, E. 11. J• Adderley, C. Atherton, W. Bass, T. BentMck, G. Mal*, Col. J. 11. Bonham-Carter, J. liranston, T. W. Butt, 0. Cardwell, E. Jollier, R. Colville, C. R. .eIJF, W. Dunne, Col. Elelio, Lord Ellice, E. !..smonle, J. `Feilden, M. Filnier, Sir E. Fitzgerald, W. er, Philipps. fl e Palmerston, m l lt j u V n Ls d e e l l t • , F. Pigott, F. Rice, E. Scott, F. StarYie. Le (1. Strutt E. Talbot, C. Vance, J. Wickham. Wilson, J Young. Sir J. TELLERS• ji ay ter:X. Berkeletr ii,......,......r Will be CA rAdori, ollow( bices -11. and Box-office secured. Cock, 63, Will i Messrs. i Chaplin, At ter MR. Rs, CESTEt, character Marshal,. * t• Grey, reitth, ' Folo we Messrs. E 11 un,an Wlll be by Messrs Murray . Follow s Mess rs. Leclercry. After v Dire, , aly. ' 1 1 7111 b e ...tsars. c Good% ; ratters b awaits' Noe LE Afte r ; INTERS: Will be rac ters 411 . To b e fa Cbai Emerge _ To cony d era BR,„ gale Less Win be The Zt Aster Tioup e , Tim 7 44 4 . 0 —1 118. e m 4811 Wm h e Nelson 1 2'!e lion Follow flucing Mdfi; To c ,„ )111/gE, 110 X- o —; Beat, ••••••-_. Tgis t 13•111011. Wis half at and ra thunth .......... , • ••••....,..... • •..-_....._._- at thi of En which of otl aeries Prop ? ~a 'IP