The Sun. — London, England, 1863-04-28 00:00:00

'ERA PAR HOUSE OF LORDS—Last Evening. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack at the umal hour. PETITIONS. The Archbishop of CANTERBURY presented petitions against the sale of intoxicating liquors on Sundays. The Bishop of LONDON presented similar petitions. Lord CHELMSFORD presented a petition against the amalgamation of the City and metropolitan police force. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The Glasgow and South Western Railway (Capital), North Eastern and Stockton and Darlington Railway Company's Arnale,amation, Whittle Dean Water, Work ington Dock, Desford Road Stonehouse and Nails worth Railw a y, Caledonian Railway (Granton Bran.hes), London, Brighten, and South Coast Railway (Extension and' Alteration) bills were read a second time. THIRD READINGS. The Carmarthen and Cardigan Railway (No. 1), Black burn, Chorley, and Wigan Railway, and Vale of Llan gollen Railway bills were read a third time and passed. THE WAR IN AMERICA —THE MAIL BAGS. Earl RUSSELL --My lords, you a ill expect me, no doubt, to answer the questions which were put to me on Friday night. What I have to say will, I think, convince your lordships it is not tiesirable that at this time I should state the opinions which I have received from the law officers of the Crown. On referring to the papers already presented to Par liament your lordships will see that a good deal of correspon dence passed subsequently to the Bth of August. The letter written on the Bth of August has been published; but I wrote afterwards to Mr. Stuart, and on the 10th of October I made a further communication to the same gentleman. It is not necessary to trouble your lordshps with the whole of the lastmentioned despatch. Part of it has already been presented to Parliament; but the despatch, after the pas • sages published in the printed papers, goes on to say : " Her Majesty's Government are glad to find from your despatch of the 12th of August last that the orders originally given to American cruisers in regard to interference with neutral vessels have been rescinded. If these orders had bees sanctioned and continued in force by the Govern ment of the United States, they would have called for prompt and firm remonstrance on the part of her Maouldjesty:s Government and it will be proper that you sh intimate Mr. Seward, while expressing the satiefactien of her Majesty's Government et their revoca tion, that her Majesty's Government are glad to be there by spared from the necessity of stating their decided objet • tions to their tenour, You will say that to order vessels, though apparently and pima facie carrying on a lawful trade, to be systematically seized on the high seas, without any preliminary search, or without the disco ver y d ur i ng such sea rc h o f any strong evidence of suspicion against such vessels, would be to subject the mercantile marine of neu trals to a system of oppression and annoyance which no neutral Government could be expected to tolerate. The un just seizure under urgent circumstances of a neutral vessel may be considered as one of the occasional burdens which a state of war may impose upon a neutral, and it may b partially compensated by the condemnation of the captor in costs or in costs and damag.s ; but the indiscriminate and general seizure of merchant vessels, without previous search, converts an occasional exception into an intolerable rule. The question which has arisen in this case as to the izure of her Majesty's mails on board the Adele, while it forms a new and very important element in this case, de serving very grave consideration, raises a point of some deli cacy and difficulty. Her .Majesty's Government cannot doubt that the Government of the United States are pre pared to concede that all mail bags, clearly certified to be such, shall be exempt from seizure or visitation, and that some arrangement shall be made for immediately forward ing such bags to their destination in the event of the ship which carries them being detained. If this is done, the ne cessity for discussing the claim, as a matter of s t r i c t r i g ht , that her Majesty' s ma i ls on board a private v esse l s h ou ld be exempted from visitation or detention, might be avoided; and it is th erefore desirable that you should ascertain from Mr. Seward whether the Government of the United States admits the principle that her Majesty's mail bags shall neither be searched nor detained." On receipt of this despatch, Mr. Stuart read it to Mr. Seward, who was ready to admit the principle therein laid down With regazd to naval rights. That there might be no m isunderstanding on the subject, it was agreed that special instructions should be issued, Accordingly, on the 31st of October, the following letter was addressed to Mr. Welles : "Department of State, Washington, Oct. 31, 1802. " is thought expedient that instructions be given to the blockading and naval officers that, in case of capture of merchant vessels suspected or found to be vessels of the insurgents or contraband, the public mails of any friendly or neutral Power, duly certified and authenticated as such, shell not be searched or opened, but be put, as speedily as may be convenient, on their way to their designated desti nations. This instruction, however, will'not be deemed to protect similated mail bags, verified by forged cer tifi ca t es or counterfeited seals. —l have, &c., " WILLIAM H. SE ARD." Those were the instructions given to American naval offi cers, and no question arose with respect to them, until the other day. I have just received the account of the prelimi • nary proceedings in connection with that transaction. On the 4th of April, Mr. Archibald, her Majesty's Consul at New York, was summoned to attend the prize commission in regard to the Peterhoff, which had been captured, as the house is aware, by the United States. On arriving at the office Mr. Archibald was shown the mail-bag taken from the vessel, which was under the seal of her Majesty's Post master-General. Mr. Archibald protested against that seal being broken and the bag examined, and requested that it should be sent forward to its destination. The United States officers, however, insisted that the bag should bo opened, and that was accordingly done. The bag was found to con tain several packages addressed to Matamoras. Nothing more took place on this occasion, and Mr. Archibald re ported the matter to Lord Lyons. Lord Lyons immediately applied to Mr. Seward, and stated that the proceeding in question was in violation of the letter of Oct. 31, upon which he relied for the security of mails of this description certi fied by her Majesty's Postmaster -General. Mr. Seward said the subject would require consideration. Subsequently Mr. Archibald was again desired to attend the Prize Court, and was there informed by the counsel for the United States that it had been resolved to open the packages found in the mail-bag. In the first instance Mr. Archibald was invited to perform this task, in order to ascertain what were bona fde letters, which should be forwarded to their destination, and what were papers referring to the cargo, which should be handed over to the Prize Court. Mr. Archibald, however, declined to be a party to such a course. If the Court chose to order the packages to be opened, he said he would be present as a witness of the transaction, but cauld not ap prove or give any sanction to it. Upon this declaration the proceedings seem to have been suspended, and the opening of the packages was deferred, Mr. Archibald at once re ported to Lord Lyons what had been done. Lord Lyons went to Mr. Seward, and pointed out that, in accordance with the order of the 31st of October, the letters ought to be replaced in the mail-bag and forwarded to their destination. According to the latest intelligence which I have received, a telegram had been sent to the Prize Court directing that the packages were not to be opened until further orders, but the Government of the United States had not come to any definite determination on the subject. These are the facts of tic case as they at present stand. The opinion of the law officers of the Crown must, of course, be very carefully weighed by her Majesty's Government before any steps are taken. Instructions will be sent out probably by the next mail, but in the meantime fresh information may arrive which may quite alter the complexion of the affair. Under these circumstances, I have to press for tbo indulgence of your lordships in forbearing, for the present, to state the opinion of the law officers of the Crown. The Marquis of CLAN RICARDE said no one could ap preve more than he did the discretion which the Govern ment had exercised in postponing for the present the publi• Cation of the opinion of the law officers. He was also glad tho noble earl had called attention to the agreement of 31st October as to the security of the mails. On the 11th instant the owners of the Sea Queen, in addressing an inquiry to the Government as to the amount of protection which would be afforded to the mails, referred to the dictum of a n A me , rican judge, to the effect that mail letters found on board a British ship could legally be opened in order to ascertain the the character of the ship. Now, seeing that by the l etter of October last that contention was waived on the part of the United States Government, it would have been courteousin the noble earl, or in the noble lord the Postmaster-General, to have stated the understanding now in force. He wished to know what steps had been taken by her Majesty's Go vernment to obtain correct reports of the proceedings of the American prize courts. It was clearly of great importance that they should know whether there was any conflict of law between the prize courts and the United States Go vernment. He understood that a number of ships had been seized, some of them as far back 2 10 months ago, and had been taken into port, but had not yet been brought before the Prize Court. The reason of that delay was believed by the owners to ho the want of evidence against the vessels, but from whatever cause it occurred it was most unjustif i . a ble, (Hear, hear.) reports of all Earl RUSSELL was not sure that complete the proceedings of the Prize Courts could be obtained, but he would take care to remind the British Minister in the United States of the importance of transmitting them when. ever possible. CHARGES FOR ENTAILED ESTATES FOR RAILWAYS. Lord REDESDALE called attention to the report from flu select committee upon this subject, and to what he con sidered the objectionable nature of the course of procedure recommended by that report—viz., allowing an entailed estate to be charged to assist in making railways. His lord ship also read a letter from Lord St. Leopards in support of his lordship's view of the case. Earl GREY defended the report, and argued that the system of charges recommended was justified by the great benefit that railways conferred upon the estates in their im mediate vicinity. After a few remarks from Lord Egerton, Lord Ravens worth, and Lord Stanley of Alderley, the Earl of Bandon, Lord Wodehouse, the Earl of Airlte, and Lord Granville, the subject dropped. LONDON DIOCESES BILL. This bill was read a second time. GARDENS IN TOWNS PROTECTION BILL. The Commons' amendments were agreed to. NEW ZEALAND BOUNDARIES BILL. — OFFENCES (SOUTH AFRICA) BILL. These bills passed through committee. °FYI " OF SECRETARY-AT-WAR ABOLITION BILL--DocK YARDS PROTECTION ACT .AMENIYM.RNT BILL. - A hes.l,9iTllascwiee read a thi r d t i me and pasted. 1141 r P s s • d j'Alxuacl at a quarter before ofirni HOUSE OF COMMONS—Last Evening. The SPEAKER, took the chair at:four o'clock. The Cheltenham Roads Bill was read a third t"me. The London, Tilbury, and Southend Railway, and the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board Bill were considered and ordered to be a read a third time. DISTRESS IN LANCASHIRE. - - Mr. FERRAND presented several petitions, nume rously signed by cotton operatives, from places in York shire, Lancashire, Cheshire, and Derbyshire, expressing thanks for the subscriptions sent for their aid from various parts of England and the colonies, saying that, in the opinion of practical men, there was no probability of the restoration of the cotton trade for many years, that they had endured the distress consequent on the dearth of employment with patience and resignation, and had endeavoured to prevent themselves from sinking to the level of paupers; that the allowances of the relief committees were more and more approximating to the relief allowed by the unions, and that it was not suf ficient to maintain them in health and strengih, and pray ing the house to afford them the means of employment; but if this were not practical, then to afford them the means of emigration, especially to Canala, so that they might procure there pre fitable occupa tion, in order to avert the probability of pestilence and famine like that which formerly prevailed in Ireland. EXPLANATION—INN KE IZERS' LIABILITY BILL, Mr. W. MARTIN desired to state that he had received, since the debate on this bill on Wednesday, a communica tion from the hon. member for the Tower Hamlets, with respect to some inferences he had drawn in regard to a rob bery of bank notes from the Grosvenor Hotel. Had ho been in possession of the information thus com municated to him, he should not have drawn the inferences he did. It appeared however that the bank notes were actually lost. ono which he had often used in that house. The hon, member for Birmingham, three years after the repeal of the corn laws, appealed to the House of Commons to be so kind as to send out a commission to India to grow cotton for Lancashire at the public expense. (Hear.) After that the hon. member, then representing Birmingham, recommended inland communication and railways in India, for the sole benefit of the cotton manufacturers of this country. (Oh, and laughter.) He thought he had shown that the cotton manufacturers had had ample warning ; but because the House of Commons would not put the country to the ex pense of sending out a commission to grow cotton for the manufacturers of this country, they had from that time nearly up to the present hour refused to spend a single six pence to place at their disposal a regular supply of cotton without being dependent upon America for it. Having had this ample warning, ho held that they were responsible for the present position of affairs, and answerable to their work people for the suffering which they are now enduring. To prove that the manufacturers were responsible, the hon. gent'eraan quoted the hen, member for Rschdale, who, in a speech delivered in Parliament, Sept, 24, 1841, said that all the manufacturers required in the distress then existing was the inalienable right to feed themselves. They had now enjoyed that inalienable right for more than 15 years; but they had ceased to exercise it so far as the cotton operatives were concerned, They had broken faith with their work people, and the hon. gentleman himself had attended at Manchester and made an appeal to the people of England for a million of money to save those workpeople from starvation. Par.iament had given full leave and licence to the cotton manufacturers to redeem the whole of their pledges, but they had failed to do so; and he (Mr. Ferrand) now held them responsible for the suffering which the operatives were enduring. The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Milner Gibson) was another authority to show that the manufac turers were alone responsible. In July, 1842, the right hon. gentleman attributed the distress then existing solely to the refusal of free trade with America, and said, if that were given, there would be no more complaints, as there was nothing that the working classes would not endure rather than become paupers. Now, there was half a million of people verging on pauperism in Lancashire, To save them selves from becoming paupers, they sent petitions to the House of Commons, imploring it, in mercy and pity, to rescue them from their degraded position; but the amend ment of the hon. member for Carlisle was to keep them one, two, or three years as paupers—not even as national paupers for they were world-wide paupers, being relieved even at the antipodes. Did the hon. member think that 509,000 people would submit to this state of degradation ? Did he think the people would Lelieve that a Royal Commission was to remove their grievances or relieve their distress? The hon. member would find himself grievously mistaken, and the Government would also find that they were labour ing under a grievous mistake if they assented to the amend ment of the hon. member for Carlisle, for if they issued a Royal commission they would henceforth make themselves responsible for everything which happened. Coming to the second proposition of the hon. member for Carlisle—that no trade was so regular in this country as the cotton trade —the hon, member read an extract from a letter of the lat.) John Fielding, in which he had raised a warning voice against the reckless trading and over production of his brother manufacturers, by which they had made their " productions stink in the nostrils of those to whom they were offered." Sketching the history of the cotton trade, the hon. gentleman said that it had existed for ninety years. During the first half of that period it had enjoyed the monopoly of the world. It had thus existed through three generations of the English race ; but he believed he might safely say that during that p riod it had destroyed nine generations of the factory operatives. (Laughter.) In support of this statement the hon. member said that he had not seen a single old face a few days since at Manchester, where a deputation of 27 delegates had waited on him from the various cotton districts of Lanca shire, nor ont of the many that had conferred with him from 1842 to 1846 on the Ten Hours' Bill. He believed also that evidence given before committees of that house would also bear out the statement. From 1815 to 1830 the cotton trade of this country had to contend against the cotton trade of Europe and America. In 1833 the China and Indian trade was opened, and he had no hesitation in saying that for the last 20 years, since 1833, it had extended itself in the East by the destruction of the human race. In 1790 the first census of the United States showed that there were 697,000 slaves. In 1861 the probable number was 3,500,000. He mode no charge against the Southern States of America, for both England and the Northern States were equally involved in the cotton trade, and no manufacturer of Lan cashire could hold up his hands and say they were clean. (Laughter.) The hon, member for Birmingham, who had attended a meeting of the trades unions of London the other evening, inveighed against the cotton manufacturers for upholding slavery; but, remembering that the hon. mem ber himself had been for many years identified with that very trade, he should have been the last man to protest against slavery in the Southern States of America. From 1315 to 1821 he found the cotton trade was depressed ; but during 1822 and 1823 there was a prosperous trade. In 1824 the repeal of the combination laws took plae., and there were strikes, and the mills were shut for Svc months. In 1825 there was a great stagnation of trade; in 1826 there were great distress and rioting. In 1827 there was a slight improvement. In 1828 there was a great increase of power looms and exports. In 1829 the exports ex ceeded any former year, especially to India. In 1830, 1831, 1832, and 1823, there was continued distress. In the last year the trade was thrown cpen to the East, and in 1834 there was a great increase of mills and machinery in Lancashire, and everyone was rushing into the cotton trade, from the conviction that, as the trade was thrown open to the East, they would be able to make great fortunes. But after the mills and machinery had been erected it was found there was no population in the manufacturing districts to work the machinery. A proposition was then made by the cotton manufacturers of Lancashire to the Poor Law Com missioners to the effect that if they sent down what they called the "surplus population" of the agricultural dis tricts they would absorb and use them up. (Laugh ter.) These were the very words that had been used by the cotton manufacturers. Agents were appointed in Lancashire, with the consent of the Poor-law Commissioners ; the people were sent down from the agri cultural districts, their names were registered in a book, and the manufacturers attended at the office and selected such as their wants required—to use the phrase of the ma nufacturers. After they made the selections they sent in structions to the south of England to have the families of the men conveyed to Lancashire, and they were forwarded, ticketed like bales of goods, by canal, by carriers, and tramping on the road, and many of them were found to be halt etc-rued on reaching the manufacturing districts. The cotton trade grew up a regular trade, and, the house would hardly believe it, but the cotton trade was a regular traffic in human flesh. (A laugh.) The hon. gentleman opposite laughed, but he could assure him it was no laughing mat ter. These people were sold by the agents in Manchester, as the slaves were to the cotton growers in the Southern States of America. The hon. member then reviewed the fluctuations of the cotton trade from 183:5 to 1839, when a resolution was introduced for the repeal of the corn laws. In this year the chairman of the Manchester Chamber of Commerce, Mr, G. W. Wood, had made a statement in that house that the commercial distress whichhad for some time prevailed had passed away, and that ho had never recollected any former embarrassment so rapidly followed by a healthy state of commerce. The hon. member referred to the depression of trade which took place in 1840, '4l, and '42. In the last year the fac tory operatives were thrown out of the mills, and in conse quence of the disturbances which took place some of the poor people were tried at the Lancaster Assizes. The hardships of their condition were so great, that Sir Frederick Pollock, who was then Attorney-General, appealed to the judge to be merciful to them. In 1846 the corn laws were repealed, and Ireland's trade was ruined for the benefit of Lancashire. (A laugh.) In 1819 the cotton trade was greatly revived, and Dr. Bowring, the poet laureate of the Anti -Corn-law League, was despatched to Hong Kong as Governor-General. (Laughter.) In 1856 Dr. Bowring, a member of the Peace Society, and Go vernor• General of Hong Kong, bombarded Canton—(a laugh)—without any authority from his Government, but entirely upon his own, because he had gone to China to open the ports and break down international barriers (Laughter.) Dr. Bowring not only bombarded the suburbs of Canton, but ejected the Chinese royal commissioner out of his resi dence. The hon. member went on to notice other fluctua tions of the trade, and contended that the state of the cotton trade was not so much owing to the civil war in America as to over-production and the glut in the markets. It was notorious that many of the manufacturers who had locked their mills and turned their hands adrift were making large profits of the raw material. He now came to the year 1861, in which the census had been taken, and what was the re sult? The astounding one that the surplus population of the agricultural districts was on the decline; and he would aske r what nati on on earth could exist long in prosperity when th to tuurrnafloPr°anPillaituttilan to h had e b etgnen Presidentt o decline. of h H t e e P wishedoor nowlaw Board. A deputation having waited on him to request that the pauper children in union workhouses might be sent to the manufacturing districts, what was the answer of the right hon. gentleman ? The right hon. gentleman did not make the deputation take their exit very rapidly—(a laugh)—but expressed a belief that the proposal made would prove beneficial to the children. The hon. member for Manchester, at a meeting at Willis's Rooms last Wed nesday, had contradicted the assertion of Lord Shaftesbury that the depression in the cotton districts was the result mainly of over production, and at the same time had ex pressed his opinion that the evil was something like retribu tion for the wrongs inflicted on the sons of Ham. But would the hon. member stand up and say that no injuries were in flicted on the sons of Shem and Japhet by the manufac turers of Lancashire ? But now the hon. member came for artetsen t tim e for ward as the re p resen t at i ve of the manufacturers, and prayed e cotton for a R oya l commission, so as to throw the responsibility the t frompta their e h oulders and place it on the Government. At n trade uinwes showed e t d he th o a p t e f r r a o t m ive l s 7 , 7 l: mills year s be ing erect e d i n various parts of Lancashire. The were st ea ofthe when t r 1 815 there w ere five f stagnation and forty years of prosperity; and from 1815 to the present time there were of r twenty-eight years prosperit of sta • gnatron, and th e res t were years evival or y. Since the repeal o f th e C orn ,LAWS in 1846, the cotton tr ade Was depressed for nioe years. And yet this was the steady trade for which the hon. member for Carlisle (Mr. Potter) was going to ask for a loan of £6,000,000 or £7,000,000--in reality a gift— which he said would be repaid in one, two, or three years— but of which sixpence would not be returned--to enable employment to be given, and a supply of cotton to be ob tained. The hon. member boasted that there was no trade which gave such heathy employment. The first Sir Robert Peel, before a committee of the House of Commons, gave the result of his 45 years' experience of the cotton trade in a different fashion. He said that its effects on the rising generation were such as he could not contem plate without horror, and he being dead yet spoke; for the first Sir Robert Peel's prophecies were now being fulfilled. He (Mr. Ferrand) was anxious to say nothing which would irritate the house. (Ironical cheers.) But he was pre pared to read documents giving awful disclosures if the house wished. (Cries of "read, read.") Sir James Kay Shuttle worth, when practising as a medical man in Manchester, published a pamphlet. He (Mr. Ferrand) would not give the worst of his statement. (Cheers.) But if he were tempted, he would give even that. That pamphlet stated that more than half the children died before they had completed their fifth year. (Date, da!o ) The date of the pamphlet was 1830 (Ironical cheers.) Yes, this was cheered by members opposite who opposed the Factory Bill. It was his (Mr. Ferraud's) side of the house which rescued the operatives from that fate. Mr. Rathbone Gregg, a large cotton manufacturer, also said, in 1831, that the factory operative had no time to be wise, and that the trade, without interference, would buret asunder the bonds of ami y which united men to one another. This was the sate of Lancashire at the present time. It had been well for the noble lord at the head of the Government if, on returning from his visit to Scotland, he had turned aside and visited Lancashire. He could have told the members who sat on his side of the house that this was no laughing matter. He (Mr. Ferrand) had received from 27 of the operatives an account of their feelings, and would say that it would not be possible to keep one-half the people of Lancashire on outdoor employment. The workmen were willing to earn a day's payby a day's work, but would not be treated as paupers. Then there was a large num ber of superior workmen who could not be expected to work at such class of employment as cleaning out rivers and canals ; they wished to emigrate, and ought to have the opportunity to go where they could get steady employment. The hon. member for Carlisle (Mr. Potter) also made ano ther proposition, that had there been no American out break there would have been only a temporary glut in the markets; and he ventured to predict that, after a year or two, new supplies of cotton would be found, and cur ex ports would be forced into Indian districts as yet untra veled, for the benefit of the English manufacturer and labeurer, provided that India was tolerably well governed and kept quiet. He (Mr. Ferrand) was sure that the cotton trade of Lancashire was responsible for the opening of the trade of India and the sufferings which took place. The hon. member for Birmingham (Mr. Bright) stated in 1850 that within the Indian territory a quantity of cotton was grown equal to that in Lancashire, but seemed to forget that this was consumed by the hand-loom weavers of India. India had no representative in that house in 1853, or it would not have been thrown open to Lancashire; and it was thrown open with frightful effects. Since 1858, when it passed under the government of the Queen, the debt had increased from 68 millions to 200 millions at the present time. Sir Robert Peel felt in 1830 the miseries of the In dians, and moved for a committee to protect the natives from wrong and secure them the fruits of their industry, but Earl Grey's Government, in 1832, only thought, in the person of Lord Auckland, the President of the Board of Trade, to open India and secure a passage formerchandiee. Lord Auckland, in 1837, collected the army of the Indus to open up untravelled parts, and the opening up of them had been the history of the following years. To carry out the Royal proclamation the late Mr. Wilson was sent to India, with instructions to place 10 per cent. import duty on Lancashire cotton goods, which had not only an extraordinary effect in reviving the cotton trade in India, but in pacifying the people of that country, and mills were erected there for carrying on the cotton trade. The Lancashire cotton manufacturers took the alarm, and the consequence was that the import duty was reduced to 5 per cent,, the Secretary of State for India acceding the same year to an outlay of 24 millions extra in India on rail ways, He condemned the injustice of the Manchester man ufacturers towards the people of India in depriving them of the 10 per cent. import duty for the protection of their trade, observing that if they co u ld com pete with America, w ith a duty of 30 or 40 per cen t., th ey m ight have allowed th e poor Indian hand-loom weavers the paltry protection of 10 per cent. The hon. member for Carlisle, however, urged the forcing of goods into India, and the destruction of the in hahitants by thousands by the same kind of distress. He considered her Majesty's word was pledged to India to pro tect the hand-loom weavers, and he warned the house against a second rebellion in that country, which might lead to the loss of that dependency. In regard to China, the effect of our policy in that part of the world had been to engage us in war 15 years out of 30 we had been there. For half the 30 years we had been burning, robbing, plundering, and sacking different towns and cities in China, and the people we had destroyed in countless thousands, and simply because they would not suffer their hand-loom weavers to be des troyed in the same manner as ours had been. His firm conviction was that we should be driven out of China, and possess no firmer hold of it than we had previous to our going there. What, he asked, were the manufacturers to do under the present state of affairs ? It certainly was a most extraordinary thing that the manufacturers should come to that house for aid in their present difficulty, after the way in which they set the opinions of that house at defiance in 1842 and 1847, by declaring that they would be subjected to no parliamentary or legislative control. The hon. gentleman the member for Carlisle asked what Parlia ment had done ; but he scarcely knew what he meant, when it was recollected that, during tha last 30 years, Parliament had done everything the cotton manufacturers required. The hon. gentleman had described it as very little indeed, but he (Mr. Ferrand) thought the hon. gentleman should be the last man to make such a complaint, The hon. gen tleman then referred to the legislation that had taken place since 1833 in favour of the manufacturers, observing that they had extended their trade to the injury of India and China, and had ruined an otherwise prosperous trade by over-building mills, erecting machinery, over-trading, and over-borrowing. One half of the mills had been built, and the machinery erected, with borrowed capital—forgetting the old principle of live and let live that was practised from 1770 to 1815. Had they acted otherwise, we should not have heard of the dreadful distress that now pre vailed in the north, He advised the manufacturers to consider and adopt an eight hours' factory bill for adults, and a four hours' bill for children, as a means to enable them to open mote mills, allay the present distress, and pre vent its future recurrence, by limiting the amount of pro duction, and preventing the glut of the markets of the world. The Lancashire operatives complained that by the Reform Bill they had been deprived of the elective franchise, which enabled them to return several members to the House of Commons, and that since that period they had had no voice in the representative system, and had therefore so much greater claims on the indulgence and kindness of the house. The operatives were taught to believe that the cotton trade would never cease to be prosperous, and they were lured by the most enormous falsehoods to go down to those districts and seek employment there ; whereas they were now blocked out of the mills, and in the greatest misery and distress. The prediction of the hon. member for Rochdale, that within two months after the repeal of the corn laws wage 4 would be advanced, and that three masters would be bidding for the services of two men, had not been verified. On Easter Mon day last 27 delegates from the manufacturing districts waited upon him, and informed him that the labour of the factories had seriously increased of late, and was continually incre,s ing, owing to the improvements in machinery. When power looms were first introduced, it took one person to tend two looms. Now one man tends three, with a helper, and some times four. The other work had increased in proportion, and the result was that work equal to 12 hours a day was got out of the operatives under the Ten Hours' Bill. The wages of the spinner of Surat cotton had been reduced from 30 to 40 per cent., and in some cases as much as 60 per cent. He referred to the excessive labour entailed upon the spin ners in factories, which, he said, made them old men at 40 years of age; and said that the only place for cotton manu factures was India, and that he should be rejoiced to find there were none in this country. The operatives of Lancashire wished to fly from their distress, and had asked the house to assist them to emigrate, in order that they might carry out the doctrine laid down by the hon. member for Roch dale, that the labouring man had a right to take his labour to the best market ; in fact thy asked for free trade in labour. They had, however, no means of going elsewhere unless Parliament took pity on them, and they asked for some kindness, some consideration from that house. They had worked hard, and had done much to increase the pros perity of the country, and to produce that enormous amount of accumulated wealth which the Chancellor of the Ex- chequer alluded to on a former occasion. The right hon. gentleman on that occasion took only the golden side of the question, but he (Mr. Ferrand) had that night taken the iron side, and had shown the evils resulting from it. Why _ _ send down a commission to ascertain the causes of the die • tress in Lancashire, when they knew that the cause of it was their having blocked up the cotton mills ? But if they sent a commission to Lancashire they must also send one to Derbyshire, to Nottinghamshire, and to Scotland, where the distress was even more frightful than it was in Lancashire. The hon. member for Carlisle said that perhaps within 12 months they would have cotton enough to set all the mills at work. He, however, preferred to take the estimate of the hon. member for Manchester, who had expressed a fear that some years must elapse before they could obtain their accustomed supplies of the raw material. The hon member for Carlisle advocated the keeping the operatives at home, while the member for Manchester had shown a noble spirit in proclaiming himself the advocate of emigration. (Hear.) In conclusion the hon. member expressed a hope that the House of Commons would recognise the evil of women and children being employed in factories, and that one result of the famine would be a diminution in the number of mar ried women so employed. Ho could assure the noble lord at the head of the Government that his conduct in affording an opportunity for the discussion of this motion would never be forgotten by the operatives of the country. (Hear.) ,Mr. POTTER moved as an amendment oa the motion just proposed, to leave out from the first word ° that" to the end of the quoition, in order to add the words " an • humble address be presented to her Majesty, praying that she will be graciously pleased to appoint a I: oyal commis sion, to inquire into the present state of the cotton manu facturing districts, and to report on the best mode of reliev ing the distress existing therein," instead thereof. The hon, member stated that the charitable funds collected for the relief of the distress in the cotton manufacturing districts had amounted to £2,000,000, while the amount contributed by the ratepayers for the same purpose was £7J0,000. It was apparent that in the coming year the contributions of the charitable would fall far short of the assistance given to the districts in the past year; and the question was, what ought to be done ? Of the total amount subscribed, some thing under £500,000 remained for distribution, while the number of paupers to be relieved amounted to 470,000, of whom 80,000 were able-bodied men. He was for placing the Lurthen more upon the property of the several districts ; and with that view he would confer borrowing powers upon the boards of guardians to enable them to raise money for 22 years. A sum of £1,700,000 might thus be very easily raised. The central relief committee had recommended the employment of the operatives upon public works ; wed, he asked for a Royal commission, in order to ascertain what works might be undertaken, and likewise the public bodies upon whom the duty of superintending their execution should be devolved. Ho warned the Goveinment against ' temporising with the difficulty, for if they attempted t,o do so it would become chronic. lie believed that a sufficient supply of cotton was only a question of time, and, therefore, that no more serious question could come before the House of Commons than that of tiding over the difficulty and keep ing up the moral standard of the operatives. He regretted exceedingly that the house had not acceded to the appeal of the hon. member for Rochdale, and allowed the unions to borrow on the security of their rates. He asked again that that power should be given. The appointment of the commission which he proposed would do much within the next five or six weeks to relieve the apprehensions which had arisen, and on that ground he trusted it would bo agreed to. Mr. H. BAILLIE said that the time had now come when it was the duty of the house to consider whether some mea sures could not be adopted for the reliefof the distress which existed in the manufacturing districts. There was no doubt that, at the commencement of next winter, the people would have to depend entirely upon parochial rates. If they failed, violence and outrage would probably ensue. The question then arose, What were the other alternatives ? The first, in his opinion, was Government aid and assistance to those who wished to emigrate; and secondly, to find employment for those who wanted to rem yin at home. The hon. gen tlemen referred to the assistance which had been given by Government 25 years ago to the people on the north coasts and islands of Scotlands, who had been reduced to distress by taking the duty off barilla, and to the same assistance given to the distressed weavers of the west of Scotland in 1820, who had been assisted to emigrate to Australia and the Falkland Islands, old line-of-battle ships being fitted up for the purpose. Such a course might again be adopted ; and, if the unions paid for the clothing and food of the emi grants on the voyage, the expense would be little more than the wear and tear of the old vessels that were now lying idle in ordinary. The hon, member suggested also that the proposed fortifications at the mouths of our commercial har bours, for which a sum of £500,000 had been voted, should be made by the able-bodied men of Lancashire, at the full wages of day labourers. He did not think there was any necessity for the commission which the amendment pro posed, The Poor Law Board had a commissioner on the spot, who reported every week on the state of the dis tricts. The Government, therefore, were fully aware of what was going on, and further inquiry would only create a delay which must be injurious to the working classes. The Government, up to the present, had done nothing, He did not blame them for that, as it was the best course to pursue; but the time for inaction was passed. There was a great calamity looming in the dis tance, and no time ought to be wasted in idle inquiries or in seeking information which was already possessed. A great responsibility would rest upon Ministers if they now shrunk from their duty of providing for the safety and well being of the great body of the people. (Hear.) Mr. VILLIERS said that he expected that the hon. member who had brought forward this motion would have made an attack upon the Government for neglecting their duty. As that, however, had not been done, it had left him but very little to say. With reference to the charge made against himself with regard to pauper children, as far as he recollected the circumstance referred to by the hon. member opposite, it applied solely to the construction of an Act of Parliament as to whether children who were in a state of deal itution should not be sent to the manufacturing districts, where they might be employed. The hon. member through out his speech complained of the manufacturers; he had complained of them formerly, and now that he returned to the house he renewed the complaint, He did not under stand what course the hon member wished the Government to take. Various suggestions were thrown out from time to time, and he therefore thought the hon. member was going to suggest how the Government were to employ the operatives of Lancashire. The hon. member for Devonport proposed that Government should undertake to relieve the distress in the cotton districts, and the hon. member for Car lisle was in favour of the Crown doing so, and he moved for a Royal Commission. His own impression was that they possessed all the information that was necessary, and if a Royal Commission were issued to inquire it could not add to the information they already possessed. The hon, member for Carlisle seemed to think there was consider.. able ignorance on the part of the Government, and espe cially in the department of the Poor• lacy Board ; but still he could not persuade himself that they were de ficient in the information necessary to enable them to come to a right conclusion. He did not know any cause of depression which could be so easily traced to the one simple cause ; and he had never known one to which greater publicity had been given, for there was not a fact or a de tail connected with the distress or the sufferings of the people which was not made public, (Hear, hear.) He did not think there was any doubt as to the cause of the dis tress, the extent of the distress, and the real remedy re quired. The number of persons engaged in the cotton trade was above half a million ; and the sufferings of these 500,000 persons resulted from the simple cause that the raw mate rial upon which their industry depended could not be pro cured as formerly. There were upwards of 410,009 persons dependent upon charity, and among these were 72,000 able bodied men, for whom it was desired to find employment, in order to rescue them from their degradation, and enable them to earn the means of their own support. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Devonport was in favour of the Go vernment taking charge of these 72,000 men, and defraying the cost of their emigration. With regard to emigration, he did not think it was the business of the Government to ad vance money for that purpose—(hear, hear)—nor did he think the Government should oppose emigration. It was a matter which should be left to the colonies, to the feeling of the people, and to private and charitable enterprise. It appeared to him to be a matter of doubtful policy, at a time when every effort was being made to grow cotton to supply , the demand, to be sending the people away who could pro fitably work the machinery. He was, therefore, opposed to any scheme requiring the Government to promote emigra tion. When the hon. member for Devonport asked the Go vernment to assist the cotton operatives, he had not told them that the people of Lancashire had exhausted all the resources of their own county. The right hon. gentleman then stated that from the first appearance of the distress he had made it his duty to collect all the opinions he could from practical men conversant with the manufacturing districts, and he was happy to tell the house that the memorandum he had received from an experienced engi neer acquainted with Lancashire conclusively proved that the cotton operatives could be employed with great ad vantage in reclaiming waste lands, in making roads, in drainage works, and a variety of useful labour. And the hon. member for Cheshire (Mr. Tollemache) was at present em ploying a number of the cotton operatives in improving his estate. He had obtained an equally satisfactory memoran dum from the brother of the hon. member for Leeds, who was also practically acquainted with the wants and resources of the cotton districts. The Central Committee in Manches ter had also made various suggestions, showing how the operatives could be usefally and profitably employed in a variety of works in towns. Notwithstanding the ignorance imputed to him by the hon. member for Carlisle (Mr. Pot ter), he had secured information from men of intelligence well acquainted with Lancashire. The reports under the Local Improvements Act showed that 25 of the places which had borrowed money under it had only partially executed the works, and in 18 places nothing had been done. This was because labour had been a few years ago so scarce in the country. There was ample opportunity for extending improvements. It appeared under these circumstances that it would be a waste of time to direct a commission to go down and inquire into the suit able class of works on which to employ the workmen, With the view that the works might be begun immediately, the Government had deter mined to request a gentleman employed under the Health of Towns Act and the Local Improvements Act as civil en gineer to proceed at once with several other engineers to these districts, and examine what works might bo com menced at once, what were the difficulties incident to enter ing upon them, and what was the number of men to be em ployed thereon. He thought that this inquiry would not last more than three weeks, and the works could be then en tered on. About 70,000 men would be fully employed in I carrying out these works. He thought that the Govern. ment were right in proceeding to action immediately, and upon the report of gentlemen being received, which would be very shortly, the workmen would be employed without delay. Colonel PATTEN approved neither of the motion nor the amendment. Emigration, to whatever extent it might be carried, would only apply a very small measure of relief; whilst a Royal commission would not afford more informa- tion to the house than it already possessed. There was no doubt that the resources at the command of the relief com mittees would not enable them to go on maintaining 400,000 people for any lengthened period, supposing the present i state of things to continuo; in fact the balance in hand was such as to require the immediate attention of the house and the Government to the question how employment was to bo given to prevent their utter demoralisation. The total amount of subscriptions, including £680,000 raised under the poor law amounted to £2,735,600, of which there had been expended £1,853,319; and the balance. remaining to the credit of the Central Fund, the Bridgewater House and LiVerpoel ,Funds, and ha tlag lauds of the local committees, CHURCH RATES. Lord A. CHURCHILL gave notice that, in the event of the Church Bates Abolition Bill passing a second read ing, he should propose an amendment to the first clause, with respect to authorising churchwardens and overseers to provide for the proper repair and maintenance of the churches. THE BUDGET—COURSE OF PROCEEDING. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it would no doubt be convenient to the house if he were to state the course which he intended to pursue with respect to the financial propositions of the G wernment. (Hear, hear.) He proposed to-night, after the: discussion on the cotton famine, to move that the house go into a committee of ways and means, in order to enable him to proceed with his chief prop sitions. With regard to railways, if the house con sidered that the subject should be discussed, he should leave it to the committee to determine whether it should be postp,ned or not. But he desired to have the bill on the table with respect to the other prof ositions in regard to which he apprehended there would be no great difficulty. He did not intend to propose any resolution with respect to carriers. He intended to take the customs and inland re venue to-night. If read a second time to-night he should propose to take the committee on Thursday, and he should then state fully the propositions of the Government with respect to charities. Mr. D. GRIFFITH inquired if the right hon. gentleman would bring on these matters after 11 o'clock to-night ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied that he should bring them on at whatever hour he could. (Laughter.) He should also state what was intended with respect to charitable legacies in Ireland, Mr, WAL POLE inquired if the Chancellor of the Ex chequer intended to submit any alterations in his plan with respect to subjecting charitable institutions to the payment of income tax ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied that h's statement would virtually be in support of the propositions of the Government. He should deal with one or two minor questions, while, for instance, it would not be well to exempt the Patriotic Fund and the current engagements of trustees ag suggested by the hon. member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley) from the surcharge of income tax. Mr. CLAY intimated that there would bo some opposition raised to compel clubs to take out a licence like hotel keepers. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was under stood to intimate that ample opportunity of discussion would be afforded, OPPOSITION TO THE BUDGET. Sir C. NORTHCOTE gave notice that he intended to move as an amendment to the financial proposition of the Government, that the clause in the Customs Inland and Revenue Bill proposing to charge income-tax on charities be expunged. ENGLISH AND IRISH LAW AND EQUITY COMMISSION. In reply to Mr. LONGFIELD, The ATTORNEY-GENERAL replied that the report of the commissioners would be ready in about a month. THE COTTON DISTRICTS—MANSION HOUSE AND CENTRAL COMMITTEE FUNDS. In reply to Mr. Alderman SALomoNs, Mr. CUBITT replied that the public continued to send in their subscriptions to the Mansion-house, and as yet he, and those with whom he acted—nine in number, whose names be cited—had not seen the propriety of amalgamat ing the two funds. The funds are periodically audited by Messrs. Coleman and Co., the well-known accountants. £480,000 had been distributed, and the balance in hand was £90,000. THE CITY AND METROPOLITAN POLICE In reply to Col. FRENCH, Sir G. GREY said the bill would be referred to the Ex. ambler of Bias on Friday, and would be subsequently re• ferred to the Standing Orders Committee, and it would re• port whether or not the rules of the house had been com• plied with. THE PARKS. In reply to Mr. TIMBER; Lord PALMERSTON said that at the present moment the Government did not intend to propose any additional grant, but if corporate bodies taking the initiative required aid they could do so by loans, and the Government would extend to them every reasonable facilities to carry out their intentions. GRAVEYARD AT CHATHA3I. Mr. DIGBY SEYMOUR asked the noble lord the Secretary to the Admiralty whether there was any founda tion for the rumour referred to in the recently published pamphlet entitled " The Dockyards and Private Shipyards of the Kingdom," to the effect that during the war with France, the French prisoners of war dying in London and neighbourhood were buried, to the number of several thou. sands, on St. Mary's Island, Chatham; and that the Ad miralty works in progress require the removal of their re mains; and that quick lime and other means have been employed to effect a rapid dissolution of the bodies instead of providing them with decent sepulture elsewhere. Lord C. PAGET replied that he had telegraphed to Chatham for information. One of the authorities had, in consequence, come up to the Admiralty, and he gathered from him that there was reason to doubt the truth of the statement. On the motion of Lord PALMERSTON, it was agreed that the orders be postponed till after the motion was disposed of. COTTON MANUFACTURING DISTRICTS. Mr. FERRAND then rose to move the following reso lution :—" That, in the opinion of this house, it is the duty of the Government to take into consideration without delay what measures may be necessary to relieve the distress which prevails in the cotton manufacturing districts, so that the people may no longer continue unemployed." The hon. gentleman said, immediately after he had again been honoured with a seat in that house, he had been inundated with applications from factory opera tives to bring their lamentable condition before the house. They knew that, through good and evil report, he had stood their firm friend. He charged the cotton masters with being the cause of the pre sent famine, by solely relying upon America for a supply of cotton and neglecting India and other parts of the world, and only a year or two ago they shut out the workpeople from their mills and largely exported the raw material which was now so much lacked. lle deprecated hon. members attempting to shelve the matter by referring it to a committee up stairs, or a Royal com mission, as absurd and futile. In a letter which had been publishedß in the Times by th e hon. member (Mr. Potter), he stated, in the first place, that the cotton manufacturers of Manchester were not accountable for the present state of things in the manufacturing districts; secoudly, that the cotton trade was the most regular, the most healthy, and most moral of ail trades; o and o t t h o i n wrdlya,s b ed hoevtaeninturedto predict f cotton that as soon as a supply I c the cotton trade, by for c i ng it se lf i n to untravelled parts of would be restored to its f or m er p r osperity, that is, if ni" India was eachpretty o ft wellho those e a y s e s r e n r et assertions Now on o intention to etorabar. In last twenty the first place, he had no doubt that during the or thirty years statesmen had over and over again warned t the it w p a a s r t of s the in the manufacturers that eventually this fearful crisis 12111 s take place in the cotton trade, and that it was worse than madness for them to depend upon America alone for a sup ply of the raw material. The lion member quoted Sir Jas. Graham's opinion in 1839, that it was an evil to be depend ent upon any one country for a supply of cotton. The cotton manufacturers, however, had turned a deaf ear to the warning, and had remained dependent upon America for cotton until 1850, when they appeared to wake from their dream, and to be startled by the danger which surrounded them. Three years after asserting their right to barter their cotton goods for the food of their workpeople, and pledging themselves, before the house and the country, that they could not only drag the world in their wake, but unite all nations upon earth in amity, unity, peace, and concord —after pledging themselves to bridge the Atlantic, and to make America and England one united happy family, ex changing for the food of America the productions of the power-looms of England, pledging themselves, if the house would place a moderate duty upon corn, that for the next hundred years the factory operatives connected with the cotton trade should never know what it was to want plenty of American corn, beef, and pork—only three years after all this, the hon. member who then represented Manchester (3lr. Bright) came down to that house " whining for pro tection to the cotton trade." The right hon. the Prebident of tko Povr-iiw Lard would remember that exprenitna 413 THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING APittL 28. 1861 was X 755,000. For a considerable time the relief commit tees had been impressed with the fact that unless some em ployment were found for the people they must become en tirely demoralised ; and he was glad to learn that the Go vernment had resolved to do what had long been desired, and send down parsons to inquire into the matter with that object in view. On the whole he ventured to express the satisfaction with which he bad heard the announcement made on behalf of the Government, and he would suggest that both motion and amendment should be withdrawn. Col. EDWARDS said that Mr. Ferrand was entitled to the thanks of the house and the country, and especially of the manufacturing districts, for the able manner in which he had brought the question before the house. The debate was continued by Mr. Hibbert, Mr. A. Eger ton, Lord E. Howard, Mr, Garnett, Mr. Newdegate, and Mr. Maguire. Ultimately both motion and amendment were withdrawn, Mr. FE aRAIND, in general terms, expressing his satis faction with the assurknce and undertaking of the Govern ment. TIIE BUDGET-CLUB LICENCES. Sir P. O'BRIEN supported the resolution. Mr. LONGFIELD spoke in favour of the amendment The committee divided. The numbers were— For the resolution Against it Majority The resolution was carried. PUBLICANS' BEER LICENCE. The CHANCELLOR of ,the EXCHEQUER proposed the following resolution :—" That, towards raising the supply granted to her Majesty, there shall be charged and paid for and upon every excise licence to be taken out by any person who shall be duly authorised by justices of the peace to keep a common inn, alehouse, or victualling house, and;who shall sell beer, cider, or perry by retail, to be drunk or consumed in his, her, or their house or premises, and who shall take out a licence to retail spirits, the duty of £3 35., and 6 per cent. thereon, in lieu of the duty now payable on such licence to retail beer." The object of the resolution was to bring a class of persons under the duty who ought to pay, and equalise the two classes of beersellers. After some remarks from Mr. D. GRIFFITH against the imposition of the 5 per cent., which the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER defended as a convenient proceeding to raise revenue, and an explanation from him that the reso lution was not for the imposition of a new duty, but the application of an old one, in which case it was always re tained, The resolution was agreed to. The following resolutions were also agreed to : BEER DEALER'S ADDITIONAL LICENCE. " That where any person shall be duly licensed to sell strong beer in casks containing not less than four and a half gallons, or in not less than two dozen reputed quart bottles at one time, there shall be charged and paid for every additional excise licence which may be taken out to authoriso such person to sell beer in any less quantity and in any other manner than as aforesaid, but not to be drunk or consumed on the premises where sold, the duty of of £1 ls., and 5 per cent. thereon." SUGAR—EXC;ISE DUTY. "That the duties of Excise on sugar made in the United Kingdom, specified in schedule B of the act passed in the 20th and 21st years of her Majesty's reign, chap, 21, shal . be continued, and be levied and charged until August 4, 1864," STAGE CARRIAGE LICENCES. The CHANCELLOR of the EXUHEQUER said he should make his alterations in those licences in comic ittee on the Revenue Bill, and not by resolution. He, however, proposed the following resolution for licensing carriages for occasional purposes :—" For a licence for any carriage drawn by one horse, for one day, 35.; for any carriage drawn by two horses, for one day, ss. ; for any carriage drawn by more than two horses, for one day, 10s. ; and where such licence shall be required for a longer period than one day, the further duty of one-half the above-mentioned rates for each day after the first day." Mr. AYRTON considered that the resolution would place a very unfortunate class of people in a worse position than ever ; and he could only express a hope that the Chan cellor of the Exchequer would yet be induced to place stage coach proprietors in the same advantageous position as rail way companies. The resolution was then agreed to, and, together with the other resolutions, was ordered to be reported. SAVINGS BANKS BILL. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the second reading of this bill. Mr. HUBBARD gave notice that when the bill got into committee he shculd move the omission of the clause rela ting to the conversion of terminable annuities. The motion for the second reading was then agreed to. SALMON FISHERIES (IRELAND) BILL. The house then went into committee on this bill. On clause 1 being proposed, Mr. BAG IVELL moved that the chairman report pro gress. - Mr. VANCE seconded the motion. Some discussion as to the propriety of going on with the bill so late in the evening ensued, after which the commit tee divided. The numbers were— For reporting progress 9B Against Majority.... Col, VANDELEUR said the promoters of the bill seemed• to be desirous of passing the bill, but he should raise his voice in support of the interests of those whose pro perty was to be confiscated by it. Re begged to move the adjournment of the debate. The motion was negatived without a division, and the house resumed. ELECTIONS DURING RECESS BILL. The bill was passed through committee. JUDGALA'SNTS LAW AMENDMENT (IRELAND) BILL. This bill was read a second time. AN CHORS AND CHAIN CABLES. Mr. LAIR.O obtained leave to introduce a bi,l for regu lating the pros lug and sale of anchors and chain cables. Who haws gAjourhod at half-put 9110 o'clock, The house then went into committee of ways and means, when The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the adoption of the resolution in regard to dub licences, re quiring all clubs occupying a house of the rent or value of £lOO a year to take a licence of wines, spirits, beer, and to bacco, of £l7 Is., and 5 per cen:. thereon; and for , licence to sell beer and tobacco only of £3 lOs , with 5 per cent. thereon. Sir W. JOLLIFFE understo)d a spirit licence to be a tax upon retail profits. In the case of a club there was no profit. This was a false principle of taxation, applying what was perfectly right in the one case to another case which was not at all analogous. He hoped,4herefore, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would take time to recon sider his decision. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER contended that it was only an act of common justice to make the upper classes pay the same mount of taxation on the machinery by which the upper classes wore supplied with strong liquors, as that which was paid on the machinery by which the I,wer classes were supplied. But there was another reason, namely, that in Scotland there had been indications of a disposition to apply the co-operative principle with respect to the supply of strong liquors to the poorer classes; and it was not improbable that in the course of a few years that practice would come before them for legislation, not alone in its fiscal aspect, but likewise as regards the matter of police. Mr HENLEY said it was the intention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to guard the club-houses from the visits of the police ; but there were a great many mess houses in this town which wore above £lOO a year. Every one of them would become a club, and they would elect the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer an honorary member. (Laughter.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that no difficulty would ariso as to the place in which a mess was held ; for the hall in which it was held would not be a building rateable at £lOO a year. Mr. HENLEY remarked that the right hon. gentleman had altered his resolution before, and now he put in the word " rating." The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied that a more accurate definition would appear in the bill than he could give viva voce ; but the Inland Board of Revenue could not proceed in an arbitrary manner, and the halls of colleges and the like would not come within the meaning of the resolution. After a few words from Mr. HENLEY and Mr. CARDWELL with respect to some difficulty experienced formerly in Ox ford in dealing with dancing, but which the latter right hon. member observed had no analogy to the case before the committee, Mr. CLAY said the proposition of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was a small thing as regarded London clubs, but it would be a very serious blow to clubs in the country. He also disapproved of any proposition which tended to assimilate clubs to pot-houses. Col. DICKSON concurred with the hon, gentleman that the proposal would be very injurious to country clubs. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the common sense of the matter was, that upon the co-operative principle the members of clubs obtained strong liquors with out having paid the tax which the poorer classes were com pe led to pay in the houses they frequented. He asked the committee to remove this inequality by supporting the re solution. Mr. LIDDELL moved as an amendment the rejection of the resolution. Mr. WALTER seconded the amendment. The principle on which the Chancellor of the Exchequer proceeds re minded him of a remark of Lord Bacon's, "that when it was necessary to economise it was better after petty savings than after petty gettings." Mr. M. SMITH said there were no sales in a club, and it was ridiculous to make the manager the person to take out the license, for he was only the club servant. Sergeant PIGOTT, who was received with loud cries of " Divide," urged on the members not to lay themselves open to inviaious insinuations by rejecting the proposal of the Government. It would be said that when taxation was proposed to affect themselves they were afraid to bear the smallest burden. He belonged to a club in which the wine used was the direct property of the wine merchant who supplied it. There ought to be no question raised as to ratable valuation, as was proposed in the altered resolution. Lord A. CHURCHILL, in:supporting the resolution, said the tax on an association of 100 working men would only be a charge of 3s. sd. for each man. IRELAND. IDUBLIN, April 27, A trial which places in a striking light the ope rations of the Black I,;sts took place in the con solidated Nisi Prius Court on Saturday, before Mr. Justice Keogh. It was an action on a bill of ex change for £27 108., the plaintiff, Mr. W. Pepper, being a barrister, p rac ti s i ng i n th e R ecorder ' s C our t, and the defendant, Mr. John Sproule, a trader, in Dublin. The bill was drawn at three months, and the defendant received only £2l, the sum of £6lOO. being charged as interest for three months, which is about 100 per cent. per annum. There is a great deal of bill discounting of this kind in Dublin, but it is a generally done privately and quietly, and for the credit of the bar it must be said that it is a rare thing to find one of that honourable profession en gaged in it. The case is worthy of special notice, however, not so much because a barrister is one of the parties, but because of its bearing on the Black Lists, and the indignantcotnment s the circumstances elicited from the jadg-. Tnf defendant was not able to nicer the bit when due, but he paid insi.lments which amounten to £l3 its interest on the £2l that had been lent. In addition to this pi.tint iff had re ceived £7 58. for not marking judgment against the defendant when the bill was due. This was part of the transaction which the judge denounced in the strongest terms. " What," asked his lordship. " must be the miserable state of traders in the city of Dublin when this hard working, proper man was so afraid of the 'Black List' that he could write such a letter as this;—' I propose to pay you 80s. on the 9th of October, and if you wait till the fol lowing day I will pay you 50s.' There were vari ous excuses pleaded for that,—fear of the Black List,' total ruin, sick family to be looked to, but such was the fact." It should be mentioned that the " Black List" is a publication privately circulated among members and mercantile men, in which the names of all per sons are entered against whom judgments are marked in any of the courts, and the terror it in spires among struggling traders, it appears, from this case, enables creditors to extort large sums under the name of costs, which would be incurred if judgment were marked, but which are esteemed a trifling infliction compared with the insertion of the debtor's name in the '' Black List." On this state of facts Mr. Justice Keogh made the following remarks :—" This charge for not marking judgment was an illegal transaction from beginning to end. It was, in the first place, a fraud on the revenue, a plain, palpable fraud. Of the sum of £7 4s. lld., which the marking of judgment would cost, £1 Bs. should have gone to the revenue. He would say that the whole of the machinery of the Court would be made the instrument of an abominable system of oppression if such a transaction were permitted to go unrepudiated. Any man might come to his debtor and say, ' I will mark judg ment against you, and you will answer in the Black List,' and then away with your credit; but pay me the costs of judgment and I won't mark it. How, he asked, was this extortion removed froth the conduct of those wretched people who in the byways, and lanes, and alleys, meet men and sal, ' I will charge you with offences of the most viol' ous nature unless you give me certain sums of money." The "Black List" his lordship denounced as " an' other instrument used for the most vile and flagiti' ous purposes." The jury brought in a verdict for the plaintiff-- £l6 5W., which, with the sums paid for interest, and for being kept out of the "Black List," makes the whole amount £36 106., in payment for £2l. It is pDssible trio ja y did not share the judge's ' , l' horrence of the' Black List." COUNTRY MARKETS. COLCHESTER-APRIL 25. At this corn exchange to-day there was a small shoal of whe4, which sold at fully last week's prices. Spring corn scarce, and in little demand. Wheat, white 46s 66s I Beans,Mazagan..3os 3 39 red 42s 52s middle & small.3ss 42s Barley —s s Peas, white ..40s 4 2 s Oats . 20 s 2 - 6 e I grey 35s 385 GLOUCESTER —APRIL 25. To-day there was a very good supply of English wheat from the farmers, which sold at the prices of last week, with a fair trade. Foreign wheat in large demand, at late prices. Barley, oats, and beans firm. RD—APRIL 24. "0 improvement in last weA's I'eas, Partridge 37s 40 8 White 39s 4 08 Boiling .. 40s 430 i)un 35s 388 Ditto new —s ...-8 Beans, Tick, old 34s 398 new --s - -0 Harrow Ticks 3ss 400 new —s - - s Mazagan 3os 350 CH ELMSFO Trade again very dull. N, prices for any kind of grain. Wheat, old white 30s 63s new 15s 49s old red 37s 46s new 35s 44s Bat ley 2!:'s 36s Chevalier .. 28s 39s Grinding........ 22s 31s Malt.... ........... 618 67s Chevalier 64s 69s Oats 20s 28s KIRKCALDY GRAIN—APRIL 25. We had moderate supplies of wheat, barley, and oats to day. Wheat and barley brought much the same currencies as last week, and oars rather dearer. Wheat. Barley. Oats. Fir5t....358 Od I 23s Od I 23s Od Second ..40s Od 26 s Od 24s Od Third ....—s Od —s Od —s Od ',,KET. the close of the market. Walls End. 8. d• Hartlepool. l6 9 South Hardepool., 16 ',; K elloe ,u South Kelloe.. 15 0 u Riddell Whitworth l5 0 0 Ca‘sop Wharneliffe 14 0 Tunstall Haswell .. . l7 6 Heugh Hall ... . 15 0 Gosforth l4 6 south Ifetton ...17 , n i) Braddyll's Hetton ..... 16 v 110 ; 4oH. 55. COAL Prices of Coal per Ton a s. d. Byass's Bebside West Hartley ......... ... 15 6 Wylam ..............15 0 Lambert's West Hart --- iey ......... .. . l5 3 Carway and ISuffryn Malting , l9 6 West Hartley 15 6 Holywell l5 0 Tanfield Moor 12 3 Tanfield Moor Butes l2 3 North Felton Gass 13 0 Walls End. Byron 14 6 Ships at market. Foreign Mail Packet List. MAILS DU E. Aunralia and Mauritius, via Southampton ..M a y 19. drazil and Ca via Mar se ill es ... ...... May 14' Cape Verde, by British p ac k e t M a y 4, Cape of Good Hope, Ascension, a n d S t . H e l ena M ay 3. China, Penang, and via Southampton. Singapore, May 2- via 111 ar s ei I ler• , . . May 14 . Falkland Islands ...... •.•• m a y 4. Gibraltar, via • Southampton ..... - India (Calc u t ta ) , and Ceylon, via Sow ha topton . . M a y 2 1 - iclia (Bomb e , via Mantel I lea . ... May 14 . y), via Southampt on May ii via Marseilles May 6 . Portugal.... May 4. ' , Rita ) Egypt, and Aden, via Southampto. via Marseilles May 5 vewfotuadland Oporto and Vigo U. S. and BritisllN.Amarica,L U.S, Brit. t ozkkeett.. ......Apr. 29• by by Canadian packet. May 1. W.C. of Africa, Madeir a , and Teneritfe May 1 0 . Bahamas, via New York Mexico All parts of West Indies, including Chili, Peru, } Apr. 28. California, and B r iti s h Columbia.. Births. CURZON.—On the 20th inst., at Kensington, the 11 00 ' Mrs. Roper Curzon, of a daughter. LANGTON.—On the 25th inst., at South Norwood, the Wif e of Rivers Langton, Esq., of a son. TOLLEMACHE.—On the 24th inst., at 12, Wilton-crescen t ' the Lady Emma Tollemache, of a daughter. WEsT.—On the 27th inst , at 5, St. Paul's Villas, Camden.. town, the wife of Walter West, Esq., of a son. Marriages. HILL—SHERBORN. —On the 25th inst., at St. James" Piccadilly, J o hn Hill , E sq., of Lan s d owne -t errace , StocP well, to Mary H anna h , only danghtet of the late Char les Sherborn, Esq,, of Kings-street, St. James's. S EAMER — HARDWICKE.-011 the 23d inst., at St. James' s Bury St. Edmu n d' s , Ed w i n, second son of Thos. Sala'! Esq., of Milk-street, Cheapside, and Stamford „". don, to Jane Elizabeth, only daughter of J. E. Hard wieke, Erq., of Bury St. Edmund's. Deaths. --- BROWN.—On the 22d inst., at The Manor, Hinton Bo la ' Wilts, George Brown, Esq., aged 42, BOYLE.—On the 26th i ns t . , M r. J ames Boyle, sen ., of .3 p 0 Gloucester-place, Oakley-square, aged 75. CLAY..—On the 25th inst ,at Great Addington neetorYt Northamptonshire, th e R ev , Pelham Castel Clay, rector' aged 37. E VENDEN.—On the 24th inst., at Ingress-hill, Greenhith° John Evenden, Esq., aged 81. HIGTNBOTHOM,—On th e 23d inst., at Farnham, Newburgh Higinbothom, Esq., aged 67. LEAcx.---On the 23d inst , Mr. John Leach, form erly 0f 179, Upper Th am es -street, aged 82. WARNER.—On th e 24 t h inst. at at Snitterby Par sonag !: Captain Richard W arner , aged 81; and, on the d a y pr" vious, Miss Warner, sister to the above, aged 78. London : Printed and Published by WILLIAM ANDI!B vv ie, of No. 112, Strand, P r inter, at THE SIM °Mee. lro• of Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the COW) AUddleseari—Wueticlay, April A WA