The Sun. — London, England, 1833-02-28 00:00:00

l'hY is en isatijest Y Lord Holland did—my Lord Holland, !tabs' 7 Xnis'ers, u„ on the proposition ot con ,s,teinlitimm-art,:i ill?. Ireland-1 wll not Ike him, speak t 4 old)), i •s a costa which, unaer no circum a tgootr, ,a'allY ado s d " a -aeuonl i ' Pe. ;—I will net spe,k of it as sa_,;!ltrara. ~ ) )), passim and caprice. But I say, 01'14 ofi 'nu mors humane and honourable men leitiatii'lntiet ecearamd" not exist Yet, how with all their sissaiZtvllica ~,,uuith('f "Pin.ion—how with that. spirit of t:dil fflatet,lis atiltiaey them is a principle of virtue—how is can be impartial juages in poli- Ina' tale i offences of insubordination ? If there fZinshirthse4lo,ltil.e, world more proverbially gentle and „,, la s anther, it was Major Wyndham—the ailiti atnerain • Mad. cal off e 8 memorable case ;—and if iiiii leAtii)n eness—offences of even supposed ill jlee, h, Paseion could lead even such a man life 1 operatev c'n you hope that the same causes 1(1444'4 of t" produce partial bias against pea taair?batdie . the same offences of political audaci'y tat, ill this 'hall to their su et' r ') But how mucii 4' et Une°,BCin . •p• ") s .• lilts, eoesoica, us more dangerous ,attratte to asa-,' he increased by actual events ? Tee tt,'ttee th ''Bt the police in conflicts with the people t,th'ilictsilsts:ytziato judg. e the people ; they are w be , a tt, e pssttas 3, and on the Bench to-morrow ; :tabs' the ,t1„_,"" of antagonists—they are expected to i4g,11,41 is th'7,,er,ation of Judges. Why, Sir, what sort h.j,(ii yotil . This impartial—'his cool—this on iso4 of th 'IY that these officers are free from the 'illittittrit e Magistrates. It is an error—it is with 5 tt„':liiqici"---svitla the provincial gentry—that they IN atry, tYi:bil• From whom cmn they, ignorant of inist, e information but from those'peisons with ill 4.11 eyel) brin „, -g8 them 'in contact ? They will see itit.lhanet,": th, Magistrates—it is their opinion they itaslttisi end,e according to their p irtialities will they liit,l,ll4te sit n' I beg Hon. Members to mark this— tqt‘Od, to float to suspend the Constitution, to inflame lira 41 at. atrage all liberty, fur the sske of appointing he lo 'el, do .. tt. adjud es not possess the requisite qualities ihilto ili erige the offence—which does not meet es.itila Iles't for which alone you ask us to ap ,ttlifY, 11,.,,0eute laws only touched, only threatened atui,i'areett:o 1(1 recoil from so terrific a precedent ; traisiitisu ced the innocent also. If you suspend the s 'lto ' You . o, ea suspend it for all alike—you make no tier it,1:11 surnh,tlie dreaded ban of general excommunica ith o tof . Jeet the innocent and the guilty alike to 11,1,"4, tlitlic""B--to the arbitrary perils of suspicion— a a 41 4, uncertainties of terror in which every man a as at of a, . 'etttmlae or "la neighbour. You give temptation to at tanar ' Private revenge—you give a field to all tai;,,llithY, all the malignant, all the individual mo pe 4 on ars ever brought a , ims, into operation by the sus os,,i3otof. ' and the insecurity of political freedom. tot: Roe Petitioning—is that the right of the guilty 't NI l'.y do not the innocent grievance's to compl is of? h'eq4tiiitia j." Pass your remedial measures ? Why 'tots', ‘ta,,','e Church ? Why do you amend the Jury inCeot oil "" you allow that these are but the corn aaNtr'e Ate More comprehensive redress ? You allow .'ettPle'lll th„:.reat grievances remaining, and you take : t' ot. tii,'- who endure them the simple privilege of ''ly ef D°',' that law touch the guilty alone? Does .ost.jkaissateibly invading houses by night, where you ; tolil siTetntlie inhabitant—does that touch the guilty laattaest this law was in force before, men turned 'atiht.iss,d I,arful purposes ; it was not the peasant La iisi7 in his own person—he was outraged in tarohi, or his wife. It was a law that operated if t'g landlord, but for the daring violatar— °l the security of property, but against sacred than even property itself. It was irei, of Chia state of things that the Chief I, 4"--a man whom I name with all i, authority of weight, I presume, with the ' titleman c i , , • , pposat—said in his address to Le remembered the date of the summary pct, and the still snore summary courtinar h'tla description could convey an adequate thsn,i r 're that then existed. And by whom g these horrors, of which no description tit'qu it and e e notion, are to be reviv. d ? By the +°f , onit2litened Ministry that, with respict ~ilssitiral aid, this empire bas ever known— ' ''''', in times of greaterdanger —times 'ut ot war—not of robberies, but ot rebel s' -'t' and boldest, and loudest against the as e la! very laws tI ey Row call upon us to pass. 44417. for exercising new correions, at the 4el), by our new experiment of concilia vnaually declared that seven centuries of beep unavailing. Why, Sir, nut embrace trolt of the Right Hon. Gentleman ? Why ats;stiaa restrit of that experiment ? Why riot lien ersequence of our new , measures of Re- Vs's t'ar.) I am sure that no people on lllieiZth can be governed by the system his et, propose. To-day concession—to- This quick alternation Of kicks and la-Ler'axing with the hand, and spurring if Alt this system, at once feeble and exaa• "wing the justice ot complaint, and yet 'of - holding cut hopes and fear., terror es' all in a breath—is a system that renders otod al 51ik.......n0t tamed but savage..-j 8 a srm. he , !t', ake the moat c:edulous people dist, oat ' ai,,444'4 at people ferocious —(Hear. ) Your a 1. Ili ,rlrelau.i. I allo , it is no easy matter. ,tut,,,01. IY . civii,zA people- is united under tlie theta'n With one ls prosperous ad less en '', of Government is tin sinecure. We 'I "tatesuten, in such a case, look not only 'Ores, but to the complex and varied state at 4 ?It whom the measures must operate. the Cats lnio two parties—the Protestant aristna , lic population. You must govern „Its :_r other of these parties, unless by a hap b " procure the united confidence of both. aio Proputied by his Majesty's Ministers, in sy gyofluiends of either party, makes enemies of )1,,,, r measures of Church conciliation you ge aristocracy—by your measures of mill i Yoe sr ..0 incense the body of the people—you pass id accePt it:;aunr power in both parties—you make one sans t sa - .jitt Can anything be less politic or less get tii4ou throw away the conciliatory mea t' , oPmiet, ~Yota sy.,,a odium for them, and not the gratitude. ..se'llri'"t ' 1--if you pass these laws, I warn you be ~To •lth epi. . obv 0'441, Of '4 'ain• You can never counter balance 't al,'tss i, i - 4th people this attack upon the 41ja. ,i,,,eirt to t hs"Wea,,. -.r.) No individual re tail diti'le t, tial • - • or content a nation sia`l? to tit 41sikti '4 be much wiser mi, ,m 1 for raft lit 4 ad contra tsol ; tatt a• hes -oght ,st, oda', fat lars4:loiss see ° tfil la la"ltt . is , ik' 4, 1 his .., _or. 111 k rtu, the stern.- " a' tt, N 'et, il N t'if Y' liable to be to., dr , afi_or. tlli same manner as oath... eqU'sorsiitt'ttlatttti liability. There was anos_ 4bl tbi ith44 4 ko :3' be noticed. It bad been eta, do' k!tt 1, oe, ass :Y might become members of ca -00,,t Itii % 'OO this last° liable to be influenced in their judgments. es` 1 41j,1% than he knew the spirit that actuated young Oa. , l sitital ts,4 army ; and he would say, that any effort made to in.. tio.4/I''‘ A: 4a ,1 teem would completely fail. He would conclude by °la d si ise l" ili test sat as I,i litt, N serving, that he was opposed to the principle of martial rob`' theit kilt, tile law, and that nothing but the greatest necessity could first pa. sif aha to jet tl''' t 9 It compel him to vote for such ame stare as the present. It of lox-hmatia.,_ ar r 1,, ktl 4 was his opinion, however, that if the proposed Bill was him often in contact V° / 44 IN If ' Ikal' has htit not carried, it would be the first stone thrown at the benighted in the most °6Pelaleo,4 1,4 il,t*voi 41.41,44,, separation of the two countries. occasionally he lost his way, but . , co it, tkt Mr. GROTE rose and said, that it was not without into the most wretched cottages to as. ,he e q tt, srs considerable reluctance he presented himself to the notice stock, the seat of Mr. Tighe (where he res.. offe° 4 reNtl 4 fete' oei" t ,:4,,,,,,4,, of the House. He could not help, however, commenting he named either that gentleman, or Mr. Pow..__ sed "i'ai on a measure which the Noble Mover of it himself had de kenny, he always found those name's a passport. ho '1 signated as arbitrary and despotic. He ought, perhaps, to sure that many Irish Gentlemen in that House would bear have given the precedence to some Irish Member, better him mit in saying, that there was no better landlord nor I cast. acquainted with the question before them than he was, and better man in Ireland—( Hear, hear)—than the Mine Mr. nature m,- snore interested in it. His plea would be, that he felt upon Tighe. He would prefer being benighted in Ireland at in the country. the question, and on the present occasion, that he was as that time, than in many parts of England. This was in _ ono mt. ha d connectedboei l with ._ ishman. Such waslB29. But then came 1830 and much an Irishman as an En his lB3l, when the Noble f were poor farinaers man of i gllabourers, s. feeling, and he hoped that it would be, as it ought to be, Lord now at the head of the Woods and Forests vacated persons. The blood would tan cola the feeling of every English Member in that House. As his seat on account of taking office. Till that time agita- these outrages. If this were the liberty for . Louis the Fourteenth said formerly to his grandson, when tion had not reached the county of Kilkenny ; but soon able Gentleman contended—(Hear, hear)—w.. sending him into Spain, ‘4 My son, recollect that there afterwards tbe county was overrun with agitators not be- vernment was charged with a desire to overthrow—is . exists no longer any Pyrennean mountains, so he would longing to the county, who endeavoured to rouse. the people that its advocates were to do what they chose, and murder ta, , to petition for the repeal of the Union. At his former elec. who thought differently, then the Ministers must plead guilty ma.. recollect that there existed no longer any Irish Channel of a desire to re and draw no line of distinction between the two coma. tion, the Noble Lordwas drawn in his carriage by thepopulace pr ess such liberty; but if by liberty be meant then protection of the well-disposed, call the Billbwha.t you outrages tries. Ile made no distinction, and he felt as much for ten miles, from Thomastown ; but now the tenantsthem were acs_ interested in the happiness and prosperity of Ireland, who voted for the Noble Lord were waylaid on their re- despoticfor theor arbitrtairoyn, olifelinmetutst cmonittesndtnitestt eihtarma,acs. der their feet : ant, as he did in those of England. There was no dif- turn home from the election, many of them were cruelly House that these gros. v'ctealrlc.'ulait'lese House were to abouyt, the Insurrection Act. ference in his sympathy—it extended equally to both maimed and beaten, souse had their farming utensils de- meet them and paustkedthemfoto.w.as n Why, the Insurrection Act was already in force, in parts of sides of the Channel. Having made these few remarks, stroyed, and their orchards cut down, merely because Ireland. It was complained that people would be shut up the lives Governmentand properties of the 'Well u he would now say, that in spite of the respect he felt to- they voted for the Noble Lord ; who, though formerly in their houses after nightfall. Why, so they were now—but wards the quarter from whence the projected measure came, most popular, became thus odious because he would not it was under the authority of an irresponsible body of the for rdthe That view was strengthened by .the o . had horrified tlemen who sat last year in the Committee ittee tops i'nqsn. he could not give it his approval. It contained, he grunted, support the agitators in their call for the repeal of the whitefeet—(Hear, hear, hear)—and with this additional grass_ tlemen of the Queen's County, which was composed of gent.. Hear, ) Circumstances were then changed, and sore, hthraii,treonpduenrhdteayr, athnedstehantocoetfacihnriicsaulfalmegislations no man could of the most liberal opinions, and which, after referring t‘. some wise and tutelary provisions ; but, taking it as a Union.—( whole, he considered it as unlikely to attain tbe end for it became dangerous to be out late; and at list Mr. Power le,aevendis house, after nightfall without endangering his oHwins these outrages, expressed in the strongest manner the ne- so„, which it was destined. He had listened patiently to the —though formerly a most popular man—told him, that throughi any cessity of having something stronger than the existing law to meat; ta family.—(Hear, (Ilteaerv,ehraelaro.n)trages long catalogue of Irish enormities which the Noble Lord be hoped that he (Captain Barclay) would not go nut in dstattWde house. Hmsetaonitessotasnley) would not give protection to the lives and property of the people. The their proceedm, Committee say— to the wishes of b._ opposite had laid before the House. Such a catalogue con- futurei after the hounds; for if he did, the loss of his life more of such dreadful details, except some 'ln adverting to the late • chievous Associations in the taro, o nothing new to him, as it was not the first time be would be the consequence. Nor did it end there; for igwcNio-othonbircilaheect ea with the appalling murder of Mr. Hooson. Th ea political one. That a.. Queen's Count the ti lime 'Of NV hiteleet, and the frequent had heard th it the Irish were a lawless people, who shortly afterwards Mi. Power'.' hounds were stoned to reverend deceased had been shot in the open day at about a recurrence of similar Associations in other parts of Ireland, the motives he was perfectltyic. as were not to be bound down by courts of justice. They death. Did 'he Heuse think that this outrage WAS corn- hundred yards from his own house—he was a man of the most tCo'ormeemolinttme%aildthough impressed litshhtoluleirirnmalgestidisinclaati,mimen t,,,,,'vril,,tleenot;ifihremrednoimn hfiosr.;:nionn by time km, clam.- ever had been a 1-,wless people, and the Noble Lord luit'ed because Mr. Power was a harsher man, or a worse benevolent heart, and had been guilty of no crime but that of parture from the lessetwabilTsvheyd constitutional rntile( oerleaew, _when gentlemen' who occupied the Dim prominem _ had not sufficiently dwelt upon that fact. It the Noble landlord than he was formerly? Ni. It was committed collecting that tithe which was his sole support—he was they see by experience so much crime has been committed, and Irish bar. If they de?iseted from the law at all, it w. so much injury sustained, from time to time, from these Aaso. Lord had done so, then it would be for them to examine merely because he voted for the Noble Lord. He could nearly eighty years of age.—(Hear, hear, hear.) This Rey. t abBo.' :Could be ie first ei wee' ore, 00 wer ove r objected were folO" wo Fidenves three no' happa' me diaL t r go t hu ot?' I a tr fisted ths` medic;lob, t , l / I ° , t a It' vith the gouge , little he teen th' )ple ;0 0 deula rs; ,.i ig e th at 1- ream,disi ierous fee it egged s he engt bal if they really och a tea Rumo r • aber for Issocist i P 3 ;be oncede a ease He first tune ther, b 6 ,it la ilia oPti lipiflll:llv,,cie-earfu rovastire c ' . e 1101 °l•i k I t ' ti, 4 in L have the t i t . i gil ill rttret:lri or h often t}e'°Abp4l4 , t 4 t'illhalf 'g 1 4 in Act Ila" iila,t!toiL ol or ° f th the vo"'edi ttioet ‘'lrliori " 'der, '.) He Pali , 11102, 4 Ire!. ° f ti would 0,-0,(11)t-‘; liti 4 40r1...... suspected yiti,:to;l°. u n autly ild be P4'f3tic et , t l , th he ,hsence _r!e4 tlet'itto,ile4 4 4 .he ,e rind be sot') irit i t 0 ,1,1114, t. 4, at first off4ce' f t 'll ~tietl,ttt I:;‘,l'° of ocy, -64-4 , -Iror. u ~, c t i . ty at t i !, on tb e 1 . 4 0 i 'th a 1.,, an , le, over °ll tilyth'itt°l a,4:l'"qu jeeted tb' r ip 01 d ry Vi.tr, Of , nl .re fod P < k, Y , 111th'ngl Was goys', 11, st,l",:t - Wiii d If tlOttl 4 ; but en. ,go • e t tli t or,„, 01 ree toontt)* itiVety'lte tAq tC°lt, ature sb‘lui 0),:t4434141:1 titlte.ver ;ration ,„ iti ktrt°.±ritl4lvh 1.0 Tre calcti';/: ,k 1 hart 4 virtual "4 Aletnbefsad oltt t;t44,_. 'sure for tretaitit ,l . t 1:4-4 jelta , taurei 0 t("4l,,i'uttry tZ' ti of but t', 0 5 11 4-qi'L,t . r e t h a t I vo I, i, e e lii , e. 4„ '4, 4( ed that t he ~ A, tl,:tY'l 1 e' ''rear, ling othic" j t'lli,,,;ott, „ At !artio vitf,e aP o,l,,,J3ettnilnet,."trel'o'hters lied, O a t or le t ~t, the tij t . I I) the c ge 1,11114 t, hr 's House. ~.,-,, ' 14 14 Il k 'Nei LI , 'hie little t'„itllti:ot,ii,veie 'win „AI , / a c4'i O ete rt 44 ' 'k tio of the •O'veri°,f4l, t ha t i ~,nt all e nfirelsaili i,e1j,.:4,1 11,.°10,1" 'lll eclar 311°, fil '''q i l t 4 rnak that uligPoroottt:Nr , R,1v11i1,,, z To dial 01e3,olitli, 1,, i a C r o 1 ous feel'h'llt4t,sl litetigilly . ;e4l it thel'i, 0 ,0 to t . 4 i the talon Iv g'ten iji:iii:t tiillt,,rat,t,t,isk f they c°.,,,s!rsLek,t,,` me. I sti ally d aogc'e fo;r4q itl'srtiet:ores, 1 o meour _,., 4.,t4 div' on wit a rot ( ed d tt 9 ' 4 i n , ippo ~,„) t, , , :.r for '' silf Il i A, 'l t ' on, •'.itic, ociatioa, u 14,141114, t . , y,ll or oti ede to l'es C t le I 't oY:tein e au I case befrtelditlfit4''t, '4, Prop ge Cottlist lii,l g u g fii e , lt time 4 lt '''Fr' c),Your bo:el„Nei„, n ge a I accept tbief,,,.4,114'',t,y steaoickrYyonquin issionatetoe t r i i o t t , t pl ii i t Ir e i on r talent . oiel: lit 14 1 , Yrf t , e y d becatla' 0r1, , .1 , "4 get the " °sect theol. of ', 4 . o l t %,?'l)4 ,_, le , 1 hint' be'sboi!,:.!t,',,oill, ~"111.--. 'ould n ot ep, , t, t tr NI in 1 , it. 11°P. ill t,,t4't'' h Ibtit of tl r Eng li6l' oi . 7 1,,h1::,e,, 're,, the erbnet (roi l !i ttt t,, 4 r), 1 ) u e f r ~ a 1 villing t° c f o r ? `° '41141'14,0 its 1 reni,di Ili tl, to y o 4 Not ill a,........fic5tf I.3ii, crl, i)t.tit 0,!I on and, see °' , t ,' 4,14 t :',tti(titlit,`:er 1 be wororseof? iti1ti1:1,14,111:.),,,4 Ole s ( ly rtra,,oe ef i o t ttt.,l;:ved le e a ter : I 0 0 r 4 ti t r Ini 1 It i ' me. It be 4 ir i le a,,Litt4 kti, 8 vas not t ot ; ti'q't% ltra,''' a applied to op, O°7 i t olt ai i ,: er ben preseot!Y:oo 14, t ‘t,,,, oy of e' there v , ", ft ), Vi t I,ati e 4f e i ti !maw'. ' ro I tkptti 0 of tot ''in the d /1 / Ztvq 1 :1 44 t'il 841 Noble 1,(4 el, 1,!11)111,,erey, I ne 0, for the, p lf L fli,,tti,l.. p ton, that the Pr 44's,4tallet li ° Wer, hat inurdeor ~' t, A L , Rf e : race. lat° gr/, 4 t q, 48 Pat 01l 114' ';o,klt4P°Pui ;can° ce, httio t t a Able 0 ffef;eoet!4 t_ th t , t hl o :: 1 1 p ° 0 :1 front the c° -d it t t k / 4 U 'ane dinate 0 oe, i Ite'4ll,t t _kl 0 . s leave, j cli tit. killtik;C,,..a I -100, 17 4) 1 'lot, ' I '''' 4 1. tiliskyr, t sture iistrstloo murFe not-wait two weeks before we unmake the Constitution of Ireland? You wi►l lose nothing by delay. Ministers allow that it they obtain this law, they will not call it into operation at once; they will not use it unl e ss some ne cessity demands. Why not let tt rest in this House as well as in the hands of the Government ?—(Hear.) Why should the Ministers rush so hastily into the odious re soonsibility 01 this danaernus power? Let it rest unal t-red, unmutilated, in this House ; postpone it only from week to week, ready to be passed the inst•nt it is re quired; passed too with less delay and less acrimony than at present; with much less excuse for prolonged and de• tailed opposition—much less reluctance in the English Members—much less procrastination—much fewer ad journments and debates—l will venture to say, even from the most indignant of the Irish Members themselves; the striae purpose of terror will he answered; the Irish people will equally see this armed law hanging over their heads —they will see at what penalty they must incur crime. Thus, pet haps, you will obtain all th•• goad that the pass ing of the I isv can secure, hut without the same actual and formal violation of liberty—without provoking the same exasperation, or incurring the same responsibility. Let us then try this experiment—let the Government make tide wise pause—they will lose nothing by it, they may gain much. No one can blame theta for cowardice, fir reluctance, in a little white suspending a law by whicti the Constitution itself is suspended. In the observations I have made, I have endeavoured to show that these new powers are not effective because they are violent; that they will not constitute an impartial tribunal, nor protect the witness, nor meet the crimes for which they are de manded ; that they confound in one blind punishment the innocent with the guilty; and that, forming part of a con tradictory and jarring system, they suffice to annihilate the benefits of conciliating one party without the advantage of cone liating the other. Th, is not all. You desire them to put down the Political Asie,itiations as well as those that are combined only for plunder. You may do so, but you will only throw the eruption into the constitution— you will only destroy the outward sign of the disease, by iucreasing its inward violence. We are the true quellers of agitation, who would give no cause to agitate. We are the true tamers and masters of the Learned Member for Dublin, who would take from his hands his only substan tial power—the power of just complaint. You flatter yourselves, that under shelter of those laws you will be able, with effect, to apply your remedial measures : it is just the reverse—they will blight all your remedies, and throw their own withering shad• v over all your conces sions. Ido not fear an open rebt 'ion against the armed force and discipline of England; but if you madden the people, it is impossible to citculata the strength of insa nity. But I allow that an open rebellion is the least evil to be feared—l fear more a sullen, bitter, unforgiving recol lection, which will distrust all our kindness and misinter pret all our intentions—which will take all grace from our gifts—which will ripen a partial into a general &site fur a separate legislation, by a settled conviction of the itijustic• of this, so that at tact the Eugliah people them selves, worn out with unavailing experiments—wearied with an expensive and thankless charge—and dissatisfied with a companionship which gives teem nothing but the ' contagion of its own diseases, will be the first to ask for that very dismemberment of the empire which we are now attempting to prevent. I shall conclude with a very few words, to be found in one of the most splendid ora tions that adorn our time—l mean the speech of Lord Brougham, on the second reading of the Ref trim Bill. I quote it not as an instance of inconsistency—this question is far too wide to be reduced to the petty criteria by which individuals are acquitted or defended. I quote it only as an instance of that large and catholic wisdom which is applicable to all circumstance and all time :—" Tnose pal tentous appearances, the growth of later times— tnose figures that stalk abroad, of unknown stature, and strange foi in—unions, and leagues, and musters hags of men in myriads, and conspiracies against the Exchequer—whence do they spring, and how come they to haunt our shores ? What power engendered these uncouth shapes—what multiplied the monstrous births, till they people the land ? Tiust me, the some p twer which called into frightful existence, and armed with re sist'ess force, the Irish volunteers of 1782—the same power which rent in twain your. empire, and conjured up toirteen republics—the sauce power which created the Ca• tholic Association, and gave it Ireland for a pampa). What power is that ? Justice denied by the right of pe titioniog—iights withhela—aye, Trial by Jury—wrong. perpetrated—yes ! domiciliary viaitsl—the force woich common injuries lend to millions. This it is that has conjured up the strange sights at which we now stand aghast !" And shall we persist in the fatal error co con• batting the giant progeny, instead of extirpating the exe crable parent? Good Gud ! Will men never learn wis dom, even from titeir ow❑ experience? Flom their own experience ! from the speeches ef Lord Brougham him self ? You calm tt expect to gather in any other crop than they did who went before you, if you persevere in their utterly abominable hu►bandry, of sowing injustice and reaping rebellion. The Hun. Gentleman sat down amidst loud cheering. Sir JOHN BYNG said, that before be offered a few observations to the House, he thought it necessary to state that he bad much expe, ience with respect to the affaits of Leland. He had dwelt in that country for years, and he cud never divest himself of the korily terlitis with which he was actuated ;owards vie I istt p-op:e, for the attach ment they invariably manitested towards him. He satin this to show that it must he with deep regret that h. round himself campelled to a;:kn...wle . ige that the present measure , of Governin,nt were absolutely necessary fir the government of Ireland. At the same time that he allowed that some of the reports on the disturbances of Ireland were exaggerated, he considered that they contained ta;.t. sufficient to call for the present coercive measures. The Government could not lie misinformed on the whole, sin e their information was obtained from the reports of the Magistrates and the Police, and, above all from the re ports of military officers. The latter were bound to report to G“vernment all that happened in the vicinity of the r respective stations. Such reports were invariably correct, for officers in making them felt that their characters were at stake ; and the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland could bear testimony that the-e reports were to be implicitly re lied upon. With respect to what had been frequently said by Hun. Members, that Whiteboyisin had no connection with political offences, he be:tged to differ from that opinion. He would distinctly declare that the connection existed ; for he had proofs that the outrages perpetrated by Wiiitenoys or Nl 7 hitefeet were connected with political obj , cts, He had teceived a letter a few days ago from a friend in Ireland, who stated that, on account of his political opinions, be had been marked out as an o ject of Whiteboy vengeance. With respect to this connectio❑ there ct , uld be no doubt. When lie declared that he would support the proposed Bill, he me ,nt by that declaration, that he would vote ftx the first reading of it, and for its general outline, reserving his opinion as to certain details. He begged to correct the statement, that officers presiding at couttsmartial were liable to be impeached and put upon their trials in the same manner as ordinary Judges. They incurred no such liability. There was another observation that required to be noticed. It bad been stated, that the young officers who might become members of courtsmartial would be liable to he influenced in their judgments. No one better than he knew the spirit that actuated young officers in the army ; and he would say, that any effort made to influence tom would completely fail. He would conclude by ob serving, that he was opposed to the principle of martial law, and that nothing but the greatest necessity could compel him to vote for such ame !sure as the present. It was his opinion, however, that if the proposed Bill was not carried, it would be the first stone thrown at the separation of the two countries. Mr. GROTE rose and said, that it was not without considerable reluctance he presented himself to the notice of the House. He could not help, however, commenting on a measure which the Noble Mover of it himself had de signated as arbitrary and despotic. He ought, perhaps, to have given the precedence to some Irish Member, better acquainted with the question before them than he was, and more interested in it. His plea would be, that he felt upon the question, and on the present occasion, that he was as much an Irishman as an Englishman. Such was his feeling, and he hoped that it would be, as it ought to be, the feeling of every English Member in that House. As Louis the Fourteenth said formerly to his grandson, when sending him into Spain, " My son, recollect that there exists no longer any Pyrennean mountains," so he would recollect that there existed no longer any Irish Channel, and draw no line of distinction between the two coun tries. Ile made no distinction, and he felt as much interested in the happiness and prosperity of Ireland, as he did in those of England. There was no dif ference in his sympathy—it extended equally to both sides of the Channel. Having made these few remarks, he would now say, that in spite of the respect he felt to wards the quarter from whence the projected measure came, he could not give it his approval. It contained, he granted, some wise and tutelary provisions ; but, taking it as a whole, he considered it as unlikely to attain the end for which it was destined. He had listened patiently to the long catalogue of Irish enormities which the Noble Lord opposite had laid before the House. Such a catalogue con tain, a nothing new to him, as it was not the first time he had heard th it the Irish were a lawless ropl,, who were not to be bound down by courts of justice. They ever had neer' a I.wle,a peo k .le, and the Noble Lord had not sufficiently dwelt upon that tact. If the Noble Lord had done so, then it would be for them to examine and see whether the tribunals already existing were sufficient to try the offences that might he brought before them or not, and wh-ther the police were sulk. ciently strong to execute the orders of those tribunes. It not, they should be strenethened, for that would be making strong the hands of justice. The hands of justice should he strengthened ; but in doing so, a n e w species nr tajoarie e shoolil not be introduced. :ma would be by the present measure. Ii they reflected, that when a man was brought before a Court of Justice, the only security he had for the establishment of nis innocence was in the imaattiality of the tribunal to which his fate was in trusted. he put it to the House whather a courtmartial, constituted as those courtsmartial were to be constituted, was likely to he impartial, nr if the Members, of which it was to be composed, were likely to go to their task with those feelings of candour and desire for justice, which a Court of Justice on ht to have. —( Heat.) He knew that the officers composing those Courts would be so far per. fectly impartial, that they would not bear spite to any iodiviilual who might be brought before them ; but could it be supposed that they wou d be without some feeling of antipathy and provocation, knowing previously that they ace in the disturbed districts? They might consider it as important that they should condemn as many as possiale, as examples to the rest ; and it would, therefore, be an object to condemn where there was even a colour•of evi dence, however slight that evidence might be.—(Cries of " No, no.") It tas hardly necess try for him to take part either for or against, but he considered it a property of a soldier in every age, not to be so particular about evidence in such cases as Courts of Justice should. If the House thought that those courtsmartial would be impar tial, did they yet think that they would look to the cases with that discrimination which was necessary to the ends of justice ? Are they to balance conflicting testimony so as to elicit the truth? Are they to examine witnesses with that c ire, anxiety, and patience which is necess try in older to discover the true state of cases ?—a duty diffi cult with any, but more especially with an Irish witness. --(A laugh.) II tribunals constituted so as to form the foundations of our Constitution, ant the safeguards, of our liberties, were liable to mistakes, what would be the case with tribunals, constituted as courtsmartial were, be likely to do ? And the worst part of the system was ; that if they did commit mistakes, they were generally on the side—not of mercy, but of severity.—(Hear, hear; and, No, no.) It was astonishing to him to hear the Noble Lord object to sending down Judges of Assize to the dis turbed districts, instead of adopting throe courtsmartial. If that suggestion had been acceded to, he would have had less obj , crion to this Bill; for he thought that, in some circumstances, it might be desir itile to dispense with trial by jury. In looking to the different clauses of the Bill, he could not help observing one clause which was lik, ly to render the evils which he had descriied as the probable result of those military tribunals still more grievous. He alluded to that clause which made courtsmartial responsible for misconduct to other courtsmartial—and to those only. He would .mak if it were to be imagined that an officer, brought before another courtmartial, was likely to suffer for any abuse of his power which he might have exer cised in the exercise of his duty while on these courts martial ? It was not to be expected, for the esprit de corps was so strong among the officers, that the condemnation of a military man for a military offence would be found extremely difficult. When he looked to the Bill, and saw that military men only were to be members of those courtsmartial, and when he saw, as appeared by the 37th clause, that " In case of a verdict for the plaintiff in ac tion for false imprisonment, or entering a house, if it appears to the Judge that there was probable cause for so doing, and he certifies accordingly, the plaintiff shall re cover only sixpence damages, and not the costs of the suit ; but plaintiff shall recover treble costs if the Judge certify the act to he malicious ;" he would say that it would deter all men, however much aegrieved they might feel, from complainine, as most men would prefer to have their grievance unredressed to the risk of being mulcted in the costs ist . suit. He put his objection to the Bill on two distinct grounds. He objected. in the firr place, to that part of it which subjected Ireland to the government of military tribunals ; and in the second place, he objected to that part which prohibited public meetings and the right to petition. The prohibition of the constitutional right to petition would not, he conceived, either add to or di minish by one jot the outrages in Ireland.—(Cheers.) 1 hey would not advance one step towards the tranquilliz tion of that country, by denying to the people the right of petitioning against public grievances. What ver might he said as to the difficulty of obtaining evidence, or as to the necessity of arming justice with powers which would make it swift and strong, as well as sure, he (Mr. Gro'e) could not admit that as a sufficient eround for depriving Ireland of this their great constitu tional right. He was sure they had not arrived yet at the period when the relations between the governors and the governed in that country were so pure, and so free from suspicion, as to enab e the people to dispense with all the bulwarks of the Constitution. There were abundance of grievances yet to redress in that country—not that he charged the present Government with being the authors of teem, for they existed long before they came into power—but they did exist, and he thought it would be wise a, will as delicate in the Government to p ruse bef re they shut the door against all the public complaints of the people of Leland. On these erounds he would protest against that part of the Bill which suppressed public meet ings, mad the right to petition. fully as strong.) , as h e would against the part which placed Leland under the do inihioa of court,martial. He would likewise b-g to re mind the Noble Lord opposite, that it was very doubtful if t• e country was in such a disturbed state as to war rant the measures proposed, even if they were otherwise unex• reptionable• Many woo were well acquainted with Ire land thought not. He would instance two, who were well known to the Government and the country, atho were of that opinion. He me int Sir J. Harvey and Mr. Bar rington, both of whom denied that the state of Ireland was so disturbed as was represented. There was nothing hid before the House sufficient to show that the wive of that cuuutry was such as to justify the House in pa-sing this harsh measure. He hoped. therefore, that they would pause moil sufficient evidence was laid before them, for he begged of them to recollect, that in passing this Blll—in suspending the Habeas Corpus Act, they were placing the life of every man in Ireland at the discretion of Govern meat and the military.—(Cheers.) He trusted that. Go vernment would reconsider the matter and would give the House time to obtain evidence of the necessity of the measure, as was suggest, d by the Hon. M tuber for Lam beth. It was absolutely necessary that they should have evidence to enable them to see the way before them, and to judge of the wisdom and expediency of it, before they proceeded to pass one of the harshest measures which was ever passed in a British Parliament —(Cheers.) He thought that if the Noble Lord gave the House time to take evidence, and if the evidence when taken confirmed the necessity of the measure, it would relieve the Noble Lord of time great responsibility which he roust now bear if he press the House to pass it on no other evidence but the state ment made to night by him. He concluded by saying, that be would give his firmest support to the motion made by the Hon. Member for Lambeth.—(Cheere.) Captain BARCLAY was certain that no man was safe at present in some districts of Ireland, if not protected by military. In order to establish that position, he would mention a few facts which happened to him in the comity of Kilkenny within the last three years. During the first part of his residence in that country, the amus meat of fox-heating, which he occasionally followed, brought him often in contact with the people. He was frequently benighted in the most dreary and lonely situation:, and occasionally he lost his way, but he never hesitated to enter into the must wretched cottages to ask his way to Wood stock, the seat of Mr. Tighe (where he resided) and when he named either that gentleman, or Mr. Power, of Kil kenny, he always found those names a passport. He was sure that many Irish Gentlemen in that House would bear him out in saying, that there was no better landlord nor better man in Ireland—(Hear, hear)—than the same Mr. Tighe. He would prefer being benighted in Ireland at th it time, than in many parts of England. This was in 1829. But then came 1830 and 1831, when the Noble Lord now at the head of the Woods and Forests vacated his seat on account of taking office. Till that time agita tion had not reached the county of Kilkenny ; but soon afterwards the county was overrun with agitators not be longing to the county, who endeavoured to rouse the people to petition for the repeal of the Union. At his former elec tion, the Noble Lordwas drawn in his carriage by the populace for ten miles, from Thomastown ; but now the tenants who voted for the Noble Lord were waylaid on their re turn home from the election, many of them were cruelly maimed and beaten, some had their farming utensils de stroyed, and their orchards cut down, merely because they voted for the Noble Lord ; who, though formerly most popular, became thus odious because he would not support the agitators in their call for the repeal of the Union.--(Hear.) Circumstances were then changed, and it became dangerous to be out late; and at lest Mr. Power --though formerly a most popular man—told him, that be hoped that he (Captain Barclay) would not go out in future after the hounds ; for if he did, the loss of his life would be the consequence. Nor did it end there; for shortly afterward s M. Power's hounds were stoned to death. Did the House think that this outrage was com misied because Mr. Power was a harsher man, or a worse landlord than he was formerly? No. It was committed merely because he voted for the Noble Lord. He could state that the tithe question was agitated in Kilkenny merely to foster the question of the repeal of the Union. Mr. FINN had the honour to be one “f the agitators of whom the Hon. Member so utterly complained, anti had taken part in almost all their proceedings in Irelan The Hon. and Gallant Member opposite spoke of the state of the county of Ki kenny, and stated that at ono time he would preter beirg benighted 'bete thin ie sonle pa to of Engi intl. He would show CO the Hon. and Gallon , Mem ber and to the House, that the situation of that county was not worse subsequent to the election to which he alluded, than it was previously. Ha hel I in his hand a documentwhich showed that the number of cr , minala charged with crimes in the county of Kilkenny in 1827 was 274 ; in 1828, 224 ; in 1829, 174 ; in 1830, 171 ; and in 1831. 175. Thus, after the election, which was said to br the cause of so many outrages, the number of criminals charged wa• I ss than during the time the Ga lent Officer could lose his way, or allow himself to he benighted with such com fort iind safety. lie had one observation to m ike on another stivernent by the Honourable and Gallant Captain, that the tithe question was aeitated in order to direct at tention to the repeal of the Union, and at the instigation of the advocates of that tueasu e. Ile was confident Chit the Hon. and Gallant Member was mistaken. He asked, was the agitation of the repeal, or the partial disturbances which took place in Ireland, a sufficient reason for th e introduction of their Gagging Bill, their Bill fir the changing- of the venue, or rainy other measures which were adopted ? When arson was as prevalent in Enchant!, two years ago, did the Ministers dar e t o t a lk of the suspen sion of the Habeas Corpus Act ? No. The first man who dared to propose such a measure, would certainty lose his head upon a scaffold. Toe Hon. and Gallant Officer had accused the agitators of encouraging tithe meetings in Kilkenny', but so fur was that from being the case, that they did all in their power to suppress them. The tithe meetings in Kilkenny commenced in some arbi trary measures adopted by a clergyman, named Doyle, who, with the Rev. Mr. Macdonnell, issued distresses against the tenants for tithes to a greater amount than they paid of rent. The people resisted, and the military were called in to the assist once of the parsons. It was in consequence of this that the tithe meetings commenced. Mr. STANLEY, though he rose to address the House with the deepest fielings of regret and anxiety, yet had never been impressed with a more confident expectation of convincing the House of the indispensable necessity of what he advocated. Hon. Members bad considered the measures as impolitic and uncalled for; but he would ap peal to the general sense of the House, whether it could be, that the Ministry was composed of persons likely, on slight or trivial grounds, to interfere with the liberty of the subject.—(Hear, hear.) He would nit appeal to their past acts, to what they had effected, to the great extension of public rights which they had succeeded in obtaining, after so long and arduous a struggle; he would appeal to their conduct in respect to Ireland. Month after month, week after week, day after day, had they been importuned from all quarters to adopt measures which should go beyond the ordinary powers of the law—measures which had been unceasingly represented to them as indispensably re quisite. Still they had not complied—the counties of Clare, Galway, and Queen's County, had been in a state of the most dreadful disorganization, but still time Ministry were averse to haying recourse to arbitrary tneasures...--they had tried what the exertion of the fullest powers of the ordinary course of law would do— they had succeeded ; he felt himself bound to add, that this success in the county of Clare especially was greatly owing to the co-operation of the gentlemen of the county, who had exerted all their influence and power in every possible way—they bad put themselves at the head of the defenders of the peace, and met the attempts at intimida tion by serving as jurors, &c., when the lower classes dared mot come forward in consequence of those very threats, which had been met with such resolution and con. tempt at the hands of the gentlemen of the county. In particularizing the county of Clare, as one in which the restoration of peace had been greatly attributable to the upper eLsses of gentry, he did nut mean to say that the same classes in Galway had been altogether backward in lending their co-operation for similar purposes. On the contrary, many of them had exhibited the most praise. worthy zeal. But he was imperatively called upon to state, that in the Queen's C .unty, which had been th.- most dis organized, they bad met with the least success, and the Last assistance on the part of the gentlemen of the county. In Kilkenny, which bad been in the worst state of all, there had been no convictions—(Hear)—and he was bound to state that this county was now in a still worse state than ever.—( Hear, bear.) He moist state his consul, ntioue feeling that the gentlemen of the county had nut done their duty ; in aa)ing which he did not mean to cast pesonal reflections on any gentlemen. In the present unhappy state of Ireland, the Min stirs had the fullest reasons for not stopping in their proem dings ; ami he would say, that whatever might be the future consequences. the ulterior results of the precedent which ...ight be established by thus going beyond the ordinary powers of the law, it was a course absolutely imperative upon the House to permit, if they wished to restore peace to that distracted country.—(Hear.) It should be understood, however, that the powers must be limited—(Hear, from Mr. O'Connell)—but the powers, though unlimited, would be placed in the hands of responsible persons, by the free representatives of a free people. It would be found perfectly impossible to limit the operation of these extended powers to any single district, when it was notorious that a great portion of the outrages to be remedied were committed by bands of strangers parading the country.—(Hear.) It would, consequently, be a matter perfectly impossible to restrict the limits of the powers, or that of the Lord Lieutenant. The Insurrection Act he considered would prove a blessing to the country, if, indeed, it were not too late; if the disorganiza. Lion hail not got to too great a height to be overcome by any. thing but martial law. He would now proceed to read the papers.—( " No, no, don't read.") He merely wished to show that there existed every species of outrage and disorganization, wholy subversive of all order and peace; and the House would then be able to decide on his case. The first letter contained an account of the dreadful murder of a gentleman's steward, in Kilkenny, for no other reason than recovering his mass ter's rent. The next letter, dated Nov. 19, 1832, was from Kil kenny, and contained a description of the "horrible excite ment produced throughout the county by the domination of the Whitefect," and giving accounts of several appalling and un provoked outrages committed by them ; the principal assigned cause being, the " not keeping their arms for their honours' night visits " The letter concluded by stating, that in all Kilkenny there could not be found a Jury to try, or witnesses to give evidence against, any of the perpetrators.—(Hear, hear.) Another letter from Louth gave an account of disturbances prevalent there of a similar dreadful character, and stating si. milar fear on the part of the inhabitants to give evidence. The only protection f,r the poor was going to America, when they could find the means. The Magistrates had found the ordinary powers of the law totally inetlicient.—(Hear.) They had called upon the landholders to act as special constables ; but all from fear or other motives had refused.—(Hear, hear.) The last letter proceeded to state, that if a Magistrate arrested an offender, and kept him in prison till he paid a certain fine, the whole of the gang proceeded to levy the money, per force, from the neighbouring inhabitants. Another letter from Westmeath after enumerating no less than twenty four out rages committed in the immediate neighbotnnood of the writer, adds, that innumerable instances of violence are oc curring daily, but that the system of intimidation was such, that the sufferers did not dare to give information against the offenders, who thereby escaped. The outrages were committed so openly, in the day-time, and so systematically, as to leave no doubt that the perpetrators were conscious of strength, had plenty Jt - arms, and determined to use them. The letter proceeded to show that the chance of recovering arms from these predatory hands was very slight ; each expedition was headed by a Captain, a man who had signalized himself by the commission of some atro. cious offence, and who had been long connected with them, so that there would belittle chance of his becoming informer. This man alone was acquainted with the place in which arms were hid, it being intrusted to him to conceal them. The Hon. Gentleman who spoke last had attributed the greatest part of the outrages to the resistance to the enforcement of tithe by Government. He (Mr. S.) would read a letter from the Attor ney-General, whose duty it was to read over the informations previous to the Assizes, and he stated that the cases in the Home Circuit only more than exceeded the whole number of cases throughout the country two years ago ; and that the nature of the cases showed a dreadful increase of demoralization in the country. It stated, that out of 1.50 cases, he did not find one connected with tithe--(Hear)—nor in which the suf ferer had been a man of property ; time only people attacked were poor farmers, labourers, women, and other defenceless persons. The blood would run cold to hear the details of these outrages. If this were the liberty for which the Honour able Gentleman contended—(Hear, hear)—which the Go vernment was charged with a desire to overthrow—if it meant that its advocates were to do what they chose, and murder those who thought differently, then the Ministers must plead guilty of a desire to repress such liberty ; but if by liberty be meant • the protection of the well_disposed, call the Bill what you will, despotic or arbitrary, he must contend that it was calculated for the promotion of liberty, in its truest charac. ter. The House were talked to about the Insurrection Act. Why, the Insurrection Act was already in force, in parts of Ireland. It was complained that people would be shut up in their houses after nightfall. Why, so they were now—but it was under the authority of an irresponsible body of the W (Hear, hear, hear)—and with this additional griev anChei,tetfheeatt—under these nocturnal legislations no man could leave his house, after nightfall without endangering his own life and property, and that of his family.—(Hear, hear.) His Noble Friend had stated the circumstances of several outrages which had horrified the House. He (Mr. Stanley) would not go through any more of such dreadful details, except some connected with the appalling murder of Mr. Hooson. The reverend deceased had been shot in the open day at about a hundred yards from his own house—he was a man of the most benevolent heart, and had been guilty of no crime but that of c ollecting that tithe w hi c h was hi s sole support—he was n early eighty years of age .--(Hear, hear, hear.) This Rev. Minister (as he, Mr. Stanley, had been informed by a gentle man who himself had since been obliged to leave the country from fear of sharing a similar fate) had, a short time previous to his murder, received a letter, ordering him to dismiss a see. vant lad of his, and adding, that although no harm was wished to be done him or his family, yet if he refused to dismiss the lad in question death would be his doom.-- (Hear.) Though the murdered body lay in the road, no one would assist to carry it to the house, and when the distracted widow went on her knees to beseech this assistance from the bystanders, she was answered with mockery and insult.-- (Hear, hear.) Throughout the night illuminations and bon fires were kept up on the hills around, for that a parson was killed.—(Hear, hear.) Nay, so far was this dreadful scene carried, that the door of the widow's house was repeatedly knocked at with runaway knocks through- the night ; thus adding insult to murder, and the sacred claims of affliction were unattended to.—(Hear, hear, hear.) After this, talk to him of this being a drunken fit of rage.—(Tremendous cheering.) This a crime to be palliated !to be lightly passed over—(Cheering)—for an Hon, and Learned Member—(Hear, hear)—had even endeavoured, not to defend it—he had not dared to do that—but to palliate it as the result of intoxication. —(Hear, hear.) The next letter he had was from the county of Wexford ; but before proceeding with this, he had to per. form a debt justly due to that county, in praise of the general good order and tranquillity preserved in it—a result greatly owing to the influence and exertion of the Hon. Member be. hind him (Mr. Carew, we believe) ; but in Wexfcrd it was stated that several outrages had taken place, one of which was where the house of Edward Maddox had been set fire to, and when he and others of his family, to the number of five, rushed out to save themselves from the flames, they were barbarously shot to death by the incendiaries.—(Hear, hear.) The wife of Maddox, in her dying moments, dec,lared that one of the prin. cipal assailants was a man who had been in possession of Mad dox's farm before Maddox occupied it. He would not go through the dreadful catalogue of murders brought before them by his Noble Friend ; but would only add, that among all these atrocious crimes, not one of the perpetrators had been brought to justice.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Kilkenny had told them, that there had been no convictions in that county. Nor did he (Mr. Stanley) see how there could be, when persons were intimidated from giving the evidence which would pro. duce those convictions.—(Hear, hear.) At the late Assizes for Kilkenny there had not been a single case; but this did not prove an absence of crime. His Hon. Friend had stated the in. crease of crime in Leinster in the last four years; this increase was not mere robberies, which might be the result of distress, but of burglaries, breaking into houses of but one description, in search of arms, arms, arms !—(Hear, hear)—as the means of committing further outrages. He would take one county, and take it at random, in order to show that an extensive sys. tern of outrage prevailed over the whole. He would take the county of Kildare,and quote the monthly report for January last ; he would not select the outrages of peculiar atrocity, hut would take the whole list, and read it through, to show that he dealt fairly with the subject. Ihe return stated the nature of the offence, the time it was committed, and every particular of every day of the month. —(The Itight Hon. Gentleman accord. ingly read a daily report of the crimes committed in the county of Kildare of this description.) He read this catalogue of the outrages in Kildare to show the character of those outrages, and that they were not dictated by a desire to rob—that rob-. bery was not the object of those who committed them ; but that throughout the country there existed an organized system of intimidation and violence; that the offences were of an insurrectionary character ; that they continued to rage up to this moment; and that the power of the law was not suffi cient to put a stop to them. The lion. Gentleman opposite had stated, with something like exultation, that he was not able to produce any cases of intimidation of jurors. He ad. mitted that the cases of intimidating jurors were few, at least that the cases were not numerous in which jurors were actually attacked; but it was in evidence, that many men who were likely to be summoned as jurors were filled with apprehension and alarm, lest any part they might take in a trial should sub ject them to violence and outrage. But if the cases of openly intimidating jurors were not many, the cases of witnesses and prosecutors who had been intimidated were many. He held in his hand a paper containing a long list of such cases, which would show that witnesses and prosecutors were intimidated, and that the impediments thrown in the way of adminis. tering justice were very numerous. Many men refused to attend as witnesses, and he mentioned this to show the necessity of that House assenting to some measure which would give these parties protection.—(Hear, hear.) When it was said that jurors were not exposed to violence, the case of Kilkenny should be excepted, at which the Honourable and Learned Gentleman would admit intimida tion had been used.—(Hear, hear) He had a letter in Isis hand, which stated that intimidatiOn did exist. A great number of farmers and substantial yeomen had declared that they had come to a determination not to attend as jurors. The farmers, it was said, had been bribed by the Whitefeet not to attend. He had also a letter from a gentleman who had been on the trial at Carrickshock, who had been obliged to quit his residence for giving an honest and conscientious be. cause that did not accord with the vies, or the popular party. That gentleman had been subsequently compelled to leave the country, where he employed a great number of persons, merely because he had conscientiously discharged his duty as a juror. He had other similar statements, all showing that gentlemen who did their duty as jurors were placed in most unpleasant circumstances, and were either obliged to leave the country, or were compelled to remain under the sur. veillance and protection of the civil power. An opposite case, however, was that of a gentleman who was known to have given such a verdict as the people desired, and a large body of men assembled, cut down his cern, and performed other services for him. They extended their protection even to his relatives, one of whom had a civil suit in the Court at Waterford, and they so intimidated the wit. nesses, warning them that they were not to dare to give evi. dence against the relation of this patriotic gentleman, who had stood by the brave boys of Carrickshock, that the trial could not go on. Here, then, justice was defeated ; and no decision could be given on the case, because the witnesses, under this system of intimidation, had abstained from coming forward. Another case was that of a gentleman of the name of Allen, who stated that his life would be in perpetual danger if he were to give what he thought was an honest verdict. He gave his reason for this belief. lie swore an affidavit that his life and property would not be safe; and on that affidavit he was ex cused from serving. He believed that this was the same gentle. man whom he had lately seen described as an opulent miller of the name of Allen, whose house had been attacked by an armed party, and repeatedly fired into. Mr. Allen kept them off by his arms, but they sent several shots into the bed. room, and even into the bedstead of his children.—(Hear, hear.) That there might be no mistake in this matter, the party left a notice in a neighbouring cottage, swearing the inhabitant to deliver it; and in that notice they declared that the attack was made on account of the heroes of Car. rickshock and their trial. Allen made his affidavit, and was excused from attending as a juror.—(Hear.) He swore, too (as we understood the Right Hon. Gentleman, for he read his document with great rapidity), that he had seen himself, on numerous occasions, opposed to large bodies of men, because he had paid his tithes.—(Hear, hear.) Did the Hon. and Learned Gentleman suppose, from the hatred expressed against tithes, that he could under that conceal the enormities that were practised, and raise in the House a feeling that opposi. tion to tithes was the cause of all these outrages?—(Hear.', Again, the jurors were absent from Clonmel. At Kilkenny, too, the jurors did not answer; and, though they were called, or fined 101. and 201., they did not answer ; and it was not till they were summoned under the penalty of a fine of 501. that a Jurycould be empannelled,and before that could be accomplished, it was necessary to go a long way down the Jury list. A gentle. man who wrote a letter on the 20th of Jan., 1833, stated that the people in his neighbourhood declared that they would not attend as Jurors, let the fine imposed for absence be what it might. It was the boast of the prisoners that the Jury would not dare to find them guilty. This was the case in Kilkenny; the same facts were equally true of other counties ; and was he then to be told that there was no intimidation—no violence—no obstacles in the way of the execution of the law ? Persons would not attend to give evidence, and persons who did attend as wit nesses, jurors, and who appeared as prosecutors, were com pelted to leave their dwellings. This case was strengthened by the statement of the witnesses examined before the Com mittee, which sat the last Session to inquire into the state of the Queen's County. It would be seen by that, that the members, both of the Grand and Petty Juries, were com pelled to carry fire-arms for their own protection, or they dared not show themselves in the county. It was proved, by most respectable witnesses, that twelve or fourteen persons had been compelled to leave their homes on account of the perse cution of these armed bands. The Right Hon. Gentleman next referred to the case of Mr. Hardell, a juror, who received a notice that his life would be sacrificed for his conduct at the Munster Sessions of January, 1832.. In Louth, too, the houses of witnesses and jurors had been attacked. There was in the returns obtained by the Committee which sat last year to in quire into the state of the Queen's County, an account of twenty.six families who had been obliged to leave that county in consequence of the persecutions of the Whitefeet. In the same returns there was an account of twenty-two other fami. lies which were obliged to have a constabulary guard lest their houses should be attacked. In King's County the house of a man was burnt down who gave information of an offence In the county of Waterford that case had occurred which he had already referred to, of the witnesses being prevented from ap. peering in a civil suit: so that throughout several counties, and throughout the last year, witnesses had been subjected to intimidation. lie did not wish to detain the House so long, and certainly should not detain it longer than was necessary to make out his case—(Hear, hear)—to show not only that great outrages had been committed, but that those who committed them were acting on a combined system, placing the law tin der their feet and he wished to satisfy the intelligence of that House that these gross outrages required a strong power to meet them and put them tia - soi, and that a measure like that the Government asked for was necessary to secure protection for the lives and properties of the well.disposed people of Ire. land. That view was strengthened by the opinion of the gen. tlemen who sat last year in the Committee to inquire into the state of the Queen's County, which was composed of gentlemen of the most liberal opinions, and which, after referring to these outrages, expressed in the strongest manner the ne cessity of having something stronger than the existing law to give protection to the lives and property of the people. The Committee say— . In adverting to the late mischievous Associations in the Queen's County, under the name of Whiteleet, and the frequent recurrence of similar Associations in other parts of Ireland, the Committee, although impressed with the strongest disinclination to recommend any new law which should in any degree be a de. parture from the established constitutional rule of law, when they see by experience so much crime has been committed, and so much injury sustained, from time to time, (rein these Mao- ciationg, are of opinion, a law might be passed which, without being in any degree a departure from the principles ea the ion stitution, would enable tire Executive Government to put in force the administration of justice more speedily, and at a less expense, than can be done at present. But before they proceed to stete the provisions of such a law, they beg to remark, that. although it is quite true, as has bi en stated by the Chief Justice of the King's Bench, in his charge to the Grand Jury of th e Queen's County, tha t the ordinary an, regular laws have been found sufficient to put down the various Whitebay Associations which have from time to time existed, t is equally true, that in every instance every Assnciaticn has made itself complete etas ter of the county where it has been formed, and committed all kinds of crimes and enormities with impunity for a cons•derable period before the enforcement of the powers of the law has pro duced a remedy. The practice of having recourse to a Special Commission, as the means of carryi.g into effect a vigorous aes plication of the rigours of the law, has lei to this; and while this practice is the sole remedy which is had recourse to, the same result will necessarily occur, because the expense which amends the sending down of a Special Commission, and the dif. ficulty of making out a case for it to act upon, must lead to post poning the appointment of it until a long time after an illegal conspiracy has commenced its operations In point of fact, although the law has in general proved sufficiently strong and effectual for the ultimate suppression of Whiteboy Aseociations, it has not been effectual iu affording protection to the public against being exposed to the crimes and atrocities of those con. spiracies for a considerable period previous to their being com pletely repressed." And what remedy did the Committee recommend for this state of things? But before he stated that remedy he would refer to the evidence of Mr. Barrington, and to the evidence of a moat unsuspected witness, the evidence of a Roman Catholic Clergy man Mr. Barrington was asked— " Can you stale what means are taken be these gangs to pro, pagate these systems, as you have given the Cominiticie to u . der: stand that there is a willingness on the part of the peasantry to commit crime do not wish the Committee to underst.ind any such thing: I believe the greater number join through terror Ind necessity, from the kind of houses they inhabit, and the re tired situation in which they are placed. The parties to the mur der of Mr. Blood went to the houses of 'natty poor farmers to compel them to go with them. Seine of these farmers tol.t me that they were delighted to hear of their execution ; they said so secretly, knowing I would not disclose it . they fieluetitly made them join when thee went out at night. Captain it, ck (the man Dillane, who I have alluded to) toldine that he has beeo obliged to threaten to fire at his own men to make them ati,ck a home. " What are the means by which they exercise these stems of intimidation over the lower orders? By goit g to their houses at night, and swearing them to join, and be ready whenever they may be called on to take arms or to attack houses. If the} rtfuse, or their wives and families should in any way prevent them, they were formerly carded, but latter:y wounded or flogged, or some other punishment indicted on them. " Is punishment nearly certain to follow' the no n-execution of what is ordered to be done P Most certain!.; conse quence is, the whole peasantry of a county, ~ot and the iving any means of resistance, are obliged to join. When this system .7`ornmen,ce's the whole county is soon in a flame, if it is nofdiscovereL: .and in. stantly checked." That, he said, proved that though the system might, in the first instance, perhaps, be checked by the vigilance of the Ma gistrates, yet when the system was established, it went beyond the control of all the ordinary powers of the law. What, too, was the evidence of Mr. O'Connor ? Mr. O'Connor's eri. deuce was tide-- " Do they endeavour by force and by intimidation to obtain what they wish to have clone P—They generally first serve a no. tice, and if that is not obeyed, violence foliows : this notice is accompanied generally with a picture of a coffin, or some em blem of death, and they write, that if they do not do What they require within a certain time, to prepare their coffin. " Has this been done indiscriminately on Catholic farmers as well as on Protestants?--I believe, if there is any preference given, the Catholics get more notices : the Whitefeet are most liberal people, for they make no distinction between Catholic and Protestant. " Are not the punishments they inflict in case of di.-obedience to their orders o the greatest atrocity, as , a_ssination, &c. ?—Yes, generally beating, which sometimes ends in death. " How does it happen that these violence, make so much pro gress ; is it because the laws are not sufficient to put them down that they are not checked P-1 cannot account for it otherwise than by saying the people are afraid to give information ; they bear with the injury for fear they should be Murdered if they give information. " The dread of punishment for giving inforrnatiori Prefaili it such an extent as to render the laws inoperative? -Not entirely inoperative,bccause they have been executed in many insl'aneei.: " But inoperative in the first instane a until the system giVned a great height, and has established itself generally ?—Yes, it established its empire over the whole county." Now, that was the evidence of a Roman Catholic Clergyrda4 —of a man thoroughly well acquainted with the feelings and thoughts, and the motives to action, of those men of whom he was speaking. And what was the remedy which the Committee he had already referred to had recommended ? What step did it recommend the Government to take to stop these evils ? The Committee recommended one of the principles of the Bill then before the House—it recommended that so much of the In surrection Act should be taken out of it, and passed into a new Act, as forbade people to be abroad at night ; and gave the ma gistrates and police a right to institute domiciliary Visits, which' would be an effectual check to the outrages committeet at night. The recommendation of the Committee was to go bey&ti the present law; and the report of the Committee grounded its re-- commendation on the necessity of protecting witnesses and giv ing protection to the lives and properties of the people. lobes proceeding he received from ~ vrouLdnrje_fertotoactchoeuln,ttsa.w which t hacch heoun adtshwhiccah. he had ceived witbia tne last three or four days. The Right Hohl: tsentleman then quoted several cases of recent outrage, parti cularly one of which the widow of Mr. Marum, who was murdered, was the victim—of a murder committed at Mo naghan—and a case in Kilkenny, as late as February '"2.—to show the present lawless state of Ireland. The Right Hon. Gentleman further quoted a letter he had received from Major Brown, stating that he had been obliged to send out a strong party of police against a body of Whitefeet, under a man of the name of Kios, when a sub-constable bad been shot. Ano. ther case had occurred at Cavan, within a few days, when the revenue police had been fired at by a large party of men. He would also refer to a letter, dated the ‘2oth of February, front the agent for the Inland Steam Ccmpany, relative to the boats which had been sunk on the Royal Canal. Several barges, also engaged in the iron trade, and intended to convey goods of that description to Dublin, and thence to Liverpool, were stopped on their course from the Shannon to Dublin, and the persons who navigated were compelled to abandon them, be cause their lives were threatened if they continued any longer on board. The consequence of this outrage was, that property to the amount of 10,0004 remained in the boats exposed to de. predation, and hourly deteriorating in value. It was in vain to offer double wages, the system of intimidation was too powerful. There were no less than five or six hkindrid nien who received • constant employment and liberal wages from the Corn.. pany, and much service had been done to that part of the country, not only by the opportunities afforded to the labouring classes, but by the establishment of inland navigation. By the present system, however, their effoits for the improvement - of the country were defeated, the whole business of that ex tensive line of navigation was paralysed; and so effectual had been the exertions of lawless turbulence, that no matter how gross the misconduct of any labourer, it was impossible to punish him without a certainty of causing the destruction of some lives. Such was the statement made by GOO of the most influential and wealthy merchants and traders of Dublin, He would now advert to a point on which he wished to dwell at some length—the necessity of employing some strong powers. What those precise powers ought to be, it was not ❑ow the proper time to discuss, nor did it seem necessary to enter into the details of the Bill, which had met with such un- precedented opposition on its first reading- -(1-lear)—but some strong powers there should be to check the career of outrage. —(Hear, hear.) The Committee cf last year had recommended the enforcement of the Insurrection Act, and the principi; of domiciliary visits was recognised by it to the fullest extent. If the disturbers of the peace were to be kept in check, if men were to be confined lo their houses, domiciliary visits, he would assert, were absolutely necessary for that purpose. The tribunal proposed at present by Government, was certainly dif ferent from that pointed out by the Committee, but it was not without its recommendations. The Committee advised that the offences should be tried by the Magistrates at Quarter-Sessions, and that they should have the power of continuing the Court from week to week for the due admini:Aration of the law. But if a strong opposition was made to the In,urroction Act as harsh and odious, surely the evils would be aggravated by referring offenders for trial to the local Magistrates, who were open to so many objections, who were so generally accused of deciding with a view to gratify their private ends, of consulting their individual interests alone, and in short, of constant malad ministration in their office. Whether such charges were true or not, was not for him to say, but the evil caused by so gene ral an impression was nearly equal to any mischief that could result from the reality. lie could conceive no situation more painful or injurious than that of the Members who had formed such a local tribunal spending the remainder of their lives among persons who believed them to have made au arbitrary, cruel, and oppressive use of their power. The Government, therefore, set aside the local tribunals as infinitely more detrimental, and infinitely snore vexatious than courts. martial. It was not necessary for him to repel the charge brought against military tribunals by the Hon. Member for the city :if London—a charge wholly without foundation, and con. tradicted by all who had experience on the subject. The Hon. Member had asserted that military tribunals were in general harsh and oppressive; but the accusation was nega tived by the people of Ireland themselves. How often had not some Honourable Gentlemen, when they wished to cry down the police, declared that the people looked to the presence of the army as a control and beneficial superintendence over the police ?—(Cheers.) How often had they not asserted that the peasantry looked up to the soldier as a friend, and the officer as a protector ?—(Cheers.) Had it not been said that the retired officers were favourite magistrates ? But the Member for the city of London objected to the present measure as a most un. constitutional one; he admitted it. The Bill was demanded only on the ground that there existed a stern, rigid, arbitrary ❑ecessity, which allowed no alternative—which imperiously claimed powers beyond the law, for the purpose of securing l if e an d property to the subject. The objection made to the Bill formed, in his eyes, Its greatest recommendation, because its utter variance with the Constitution rendered it totally im possible that it could ever be drawn into a precedent unless such times as the present should recur to justify its adoption.— (Loud cheers.) The proposal of appointing gentlemen of the Bar for the trial of the offenders, was one at which he looked with much jealousy. Ought the Judges of the land—men whose characters should be beyond all stain, who should never be exhibited in situations at variance with the duties of their office, and who should live within the letter and spirit of the law—ought they to be disgraced by setting them to try criminal offences without a Jury ? As to the other suggestion, that barristers might try persons, he regarded it as a dangerous scheme. Barristers, it would be said, were anxious far prefer. ment ; the suspicion of such a motive would cast a slur over their proceedings—they would be supposed to decide according to the wishes of Government, and to view every question as a political one. That they wou ld not be g overned b y such motives he was perfectly assur ed ; but there would, it was evident, be room for much clamour. — (Hear.) Besides, he was confirmed in his opinion b y the known political bias of the gentlemen who occupied the most prominent position at the Irish bar. If they Farted from the liVr at all, it was better to ~~