The Sun. — London, England, 1863-02-24 00:00:00

regiment of 450 Nubians to be marched down to Alexandria, and to be forthwi' h embarked upon a French frigate, with oat their knowing why or where they were going. That was sufficiently irregular, because the Egyptian troops be longed to the Sultan, and it is not competent for any vassal to dispose of the troops of his sovereign without authority. The Pasha had no right to send a regiment of Nubians to serve under a foreign sovereign without the previous sanc tion of the Sultan, That, however, was not likely the inten • tion of the French Government, because their instructions were to enlist a number of Africans, entirely in accordance with the exercise of their individual wills. However, not contented with that irregularity, the Egyptian Government committed an act which was exactly similar in violence and cruelty to that recently committed at Warsaw, They sent agents on to the streets and the quays, and they secured every man thought fit for military service or for hard labour. 'those people, torn away h oLa their homes and families, were immediately placed on board of tenders and conveyed out to a French frigate in the offing. Well, I cannot help believing that the French Governmnnt, which has expressed a strong dislike and condemnation of the cruel operations at Warsaw, end other Polish towns, of seizing people for service in the Russian army, will feel that this act of cruelty has been worse, because these poor negroes were carried to an unhealthy climate, and that, as far as may be in their power, they will be disposed to make repa ration for what has been done. Her Majesty's Government had expressed their opinion to the French Government that the arrangement was perfectly irregular, a violation of the rights of the Sultan, and that the Pasha of Egypt was not entitled to dispose of the subjects of the Sultan. SUPERINTENDENTS OF DOCKYARD POLICE. Sir J, ELPHI N STONE rose to move that the house resolve itself into a committee to consider an address pray. ing that the three superintendents of Portsmouth, Pem broke, and Chatham dockyard police, superannuated on the abolition of their office, be restored to the scale of pension originally awarded to them. The hon. and gallant member explained that the three gentlemen in question had been selected, after long service i n th e navy, to M 1 these posi tions of trust, and that they had done so with credit to themselves for 26 years. On the Metropolitan Police being appointed to take charge of the Royal dockyards in 1860, the offices of these gentlemen were abolished, and they were awardel a pension by the Treasury of £174 a year. They enjoyed that from October, 1860, to June, 1861, when it had been summarily reduced by one half of the pension allowed to them by the Treasury. The Admiralty were satisfied of the justice of their claim, and had repeatedly applied to the Treasury on the subject. He thought there fore that her Majesty's Government cught to take the mat ter into consideration with a view to restoring the pension which had been granted them by the Lords of the Treasury. Mr. F. PEEL explained that the pension awarded to these gentlemen had been granted in ignorance of their being in receipt of half pay for service in the navy. When that fact had been discovered, the amount of their pension had been reduced in conformity with the provisions of the Superannuation Act, which provided that no officer receiv ing half-pay should receive a pension in respect of civil services exceeding two-thirds of his civil salary. That being the law, the Lords of the Treasury had no discretion in the matter, and it was not in their power to accede to the claims of the officers in question. The hon. and gallant member's amendment was put from the chair, but was negatived without a division. THE TRANSPORT SERVICE. Mr. LINDSAY rose to inquire what steps had been taken to carry out the recommendations of the transport committee of 1860-61, which had recommended that the transport and victualling departments of the Admiralty should be separated ; that the emigration office should be abolished, and other arrangements made tending to greater economy and efficiency. He was glad to find that the Go vernment were about to reduce the estimates. Mr. BENTINCK could not concur with the hon. mem ber in congratulating the Government on the proposed re duction until he had heard the reasons for it. He was afraid they might witness what had happened over and over again, that the naval defences of the country might be reduced without rhyme or reason to a moat inefficient standard, and then when an emergency arose they would have to be replaced at very great expense. The French Government were now building a large number of vessels of war, and although it had been asserted that they were not to be used against England, still this country ought to keep in mind, in case of a war with other Powers, the means of aggression possessed by its neigh bour. He had the authority of officers in the French dock yards for stating that the French Government lisped shortly to be able to send to sea an iron cased vessel named after every department in France. For what purpose or against what power could these vessels be designed but Great Bri tain ? It was well known that in the dockyards of Brest and Rochefort alone the French had 11,000 men regularly employed, whereas the entire number at work in all the English dockyards was about 10,700. The hon. member for Sunderland had said the committees of that house were practically useless; and if ever that remark was true it was with respect to the committee appointed to inquire into the Admiralty system. In truth, however, he believed it im possible a wise system should be established under the pre sent constitution of the Admiralty. The responsibility rested upon the First Lord, who was unacquainted with the management of the department during the first few years after his appointment, and was obliged to depend on the assistance of professional men. But when the First Lord bad mastered the details of the Admiralty a change of Government took place, and he was turned out, and a new First Lord put in his place who had to go through the same course of training. So long as this system continued, and so long as the Board of Admiralty was made a mere political department, so long would it be useless to at tempt any reduction of expenditure, or any effective con trol over the expenditure. It was almost invariably the custom that every new Board of Admiralty proceeded to upset all the acts of their predecessors, and hence it was that the defects of the department continued from year to year. Until some resolution was come to for remodelling the Board of Admiralty, it would be perfectly hopeless to look for any change for the better. The hon. member then referred to a committee which had been appointed some years back to inquire into the subject, but considering the men who composed the committee it was absolutely idle to have expected any result from it. No one wished that that committee should be revived, because it was plain that as long as there were members upon it who had been officially connected with the Admiralty, they could never come to any right conclusion with respect to the reconstitution of the board. THE lONIAN ISLANDS—A HARBOUR IN THE ADRIATIC. Sir F. SMITH asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he had any objection to place upon the table of the house the correspondence that took place in the years 1808 to 1813 inclusive, between the Admiralty and the naval commander-in-chief in the Mediterranean respecting the advisability of having a harbour in the Adriatic for the use of the British fleet. The hon. member impressed upon the Government the importance of the question in a naval rather than a military point of view; and he trusted that, in the event of giving up the lonian Islande, they should establish some place of refuge for British ships in the Adri atic, which would be indispensable in the event of a war with France. VIOE-CONSULSHIP FOR ABBEOKUTA. Mr. D. SEYMOUR rose to call attention to the fact that a British vice-consul was commissioned last year for Abbeokuta, in Western Africa; that, on his arrival and presenting his credentials to the native authorities, he was peremptorily refused admission to remain in that capacity, and was compelled to return to England ; and asked the Under Secretary f or F ore i gn Affairs e wheth he could explain the cause of this rej ec ti on o f a British repre sentative,r and whether any steps h a d b een ta k en by the Foreign Office in consequence. The hon. member entered into some details connected with the treatment which the vice-consul had received, and stated the importance of the town of Abbeokuta, which contained a large population and several thousand British residents, should be his apology for bringing the matter before the house, and requesting some information upon it. Lord C. PAGET said, in answer to the hon. member for Chatham, that there was no objection to produce the cor respondence referred to. He had made a search himself, but could find no correspondence bearing on the question of the lonian Islandsi; but if the hon. member would give him the dates, or come and examine the papers himself, there would be no objection to give copies. He could also assure the hon. member for Tynemouth that the transport depart ment was in a very efficient state, and that communications had been received from the Commander-in-Chief, acknow ledging the high state of organisation to which the trans port department had been brought. The department was in a peeition to carry out the duties referred to by the hon, lJe raber, but some objections had been raised. The hon. member c for E as t N or f o lk (M r . Bentinck) found fault with the con stitution of the Board of Admiralty, and lamented the changes which the board underwent. Bat as far as that matter was had no desir e concerned, the present board for change and would continue as long as was desired. (Laughter.) that the Admiralty increased or The hon. member argued reduced the estimates ac cording to the tone of that house,an t d without any reference bu to the efficiency of the service ; such on was not the case. Th e diminution in the estimates went gradua graduince ally the 1860-1 to the pr esent. He did not meau to den French had an admirable transport service, but s y urely this country could net prevent France from having an efficient transport department. Mr. LAYARD said that as far as he could understand the motive of the King of Abbeokuta and his people for the manner in which they treated Mr. Taylor, who went there as vice-consul, it was because this country h had n t o gi ven them more assistance agains t the King of Da omey. Repa ration would be demanded of them for their ill •treatment towards Mr. Taylor, and for aggressive attacks which they committed upon a neighbouring tribe. After a few remarks from Mr. KINNAIRD, the subjec dropped. FLOGGING IN THE NAVY• Mr. W. WILLIAMS called attention to the return of flogging in the navy. The number of men flogged was 1,076, and the number of lashes inflicted 36,463. Of these 2,690 only were inflicted under sentences of courts martial, which was a violation of the understanding of last session. There was a great increase this year over the previous year's THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 24, 1863. lament the cause of reduction as much as I do. It is due to the great decrease in the manufacture of sails, which, to the regret of all lovers of sailing, have given way to coals. In the vote for naval stores there is, I may add, a decrease of £410,133 for timber alone. We have at last got a stock of timber worthy of the country, there being no less than £112,000 worth of old timber on our hands at this moment— a position which I do not believe we were ever in before. In the Controller's department we ask for a less sum this year by £200,380, because so far as engines are concerned there is at present no necessity for any large demand. Upon the contracts for ships we ask for a considerably less sum than last year, and, moreover, we do not propose any new construction of iron ships in the coming year ; but at alater period I will explain what we are doing in that respect. The next vote upon which there is a decrease is upon vote 11, for New Works. I see the hon. member for Portsmouth (Sir J. Elphinstoue) in his place, and I confess I expect some complaint from him with regard to what I am now about to mention. The fact is that, in deference to the opi nion of this house, the Admiralty have seriously thought whether they ought or ought not to construct large works at Portsmouth. Undoubtedly, before I or whoever may occupy my position asks a vote for this purpose it would be requisite to lay before the house full and detailed plans, showing the whole cost of the works. We do not intend to do so this year. The fact is, we found at the eleventh hour it was necessary to pass a private Act of Parliament in order to enable us to commence the works, though I had sup posed, as the property belonged to the Admiralty, we might at once have proposed a sum to the house; bat when we dis covered our mistake, it was too late to comply with the standing orders, and therefore the amount we intended to ask was erased from the estimates. But, sir, we proceed vigo rously at Chatham. (A laugh.) The noble lord (Lord R. Montagu) will, I hope, now give me credit for great anxiety in pushing forwards the works at Chatham, and accordingly we shall do as much work there during the next year as we possibly can. We therefore propose to take for the works at Chatham as large a sum as we can expend. We likewise pro pose to take a considerable sum for the new long dock at Malta, in addition to the dockyard. The Maltese authorities have been in communication with the Imperial Government, and they have proposed to contribute a portion of the expenses for the works which we intend to construct at the head of the great harbour. I will be ready by and bye to give further explanations on this subject. But, Sir, there is a public work which the Admiralty has not ceased to desire, inasmuch as it is one which will be absolutely necessary at some future time. If in the event of war you mean to have your naval business conducted with vigour and despatch, it will be necessary to have the Admiralty officers amalga mated and brought under one roof, That matter has been under the consideration of her Majesty's Government. We volunteered to go to Somerset-house, but we found that the alterations necessary would cost a great deal, and I am sorry to say we do not as yet ask for any sum for that pur pose, important as the measure is. Now, having given a general sketch of the principal items of decrease intheNaval Estimates for the coming year, the Committee will permit me to give some account of the numerous details of various branches, and, first of all, with regard to the construction of ships. Sir, I have laid upon the table of the house the usual annual return of the number of steamships afloat and building, and as the return is rather a long one I will not, unless it be desired, go through its details, bat will shortly state we have now under construction and at sea 21 armour plated vessels. (Hear, hear.) I will endeavour to show how soon the ships under construction will be ready for sea, and the progress we intend to make in the further con struction of iron-cased ships. The house is aware that we have at this moment at sea the Warrior, the B lack Prince, the Defence, and the Resistance. They have been tried under various circumstances, and I am happy to assure the Committee the reports concerning them are very satisfac tory. They are all good sea boats. One of them, which was very much criticised last year—the smaller one—the Resistance, has proved herself the fastest of the whole. Now, smaller ships have various advantages over larger ones; and in saying this I do not mean to detract from the merits of the Warrior, the child of my right hon. friend (Sir J. Pakington). I believe the hon. member for Tyne mouth has seen them at Lisbon. Sir J. PAKINGTON—What is the speed of the Resist ance ? Lord C. PAGET—Her speed is 111 knots an hour; but the trials that hayed been made have been principally with a view to try their going in a circle, their action with respect to pitching and rolling, and their general sailing qualitie s. Those ships had just return ed from their cruise to Lisbon . The Royal Oak will probably be ready for sea in May, and the Prince Consort in June. Both these vessels are wooden line -of-battle ships converted into armour-plated, and above 4,000 tons. The Hector, an iron ship of intermediate size between the Warrior and the Resistance class, will be ready for sea in July. I do not say that all these ships will be com missioned as soon as they are completed; my object is to show when they will be ready. (Hear.) The Caledonia, another of the wooden line-of-battle ships converted, will be ready in September. And now we come to a novel class of ship. The house will remember that for some time it was supposed that no ship would be able to carry armour plates unless one of a very large tonnage. It was, however, \ undoubtedly most desirable that we should have vessels of somewhat less tonnage, and less costly, but still able to bear armour-plates. Mr. Reed, now Chief Constructor of the Navy, was employed by the Admiralty to carry out the construction of ships of this class, and he was ordered to build time —the Enterprise, the Research, and the Favou rite. The Enterprise is to have a wooden bottom—that is to enable her to go to distant stations, but she will carry very heavy guns, and will be entirely armour-plated in the middle and along her topsides, so that, although she cannot attempt to resist shot, we believe shells will not have the same deadly effect on her as on wooden ships. These three ships are much of the same nature. The Enterprise will be ready by Oct., the Research in Feb., IR — 64 , and the Favourite in J une, 1864. The Royal Sovereign will be ready in Nov. The Enterprise is a Yeasel of 990 tons, and the other two, the Research and Favourite, are respectively of 1,253 and , • 2,186 tons. The state ....lent with regard to the preparation of • must always be a matter of uncertainty. We ha'e dome admirable constructors of armour plates all over the cottntr', but questions of difficulty are apt to arise, and it is better that we should delay our ships than that we should go on and plate them with insufficient arttlour. (Hear.) While upon armour plates let me pay honour where honour is due. We can get good plates, both hammered and rolled, but we find that the rolled ate more uniform, and Mr. Brown, a gentleman distinguished by great zeal, and conducting im portant works at Sheffield, has been most successful in producing plates. I may likewise mention Mr. Reed (we believe) as being very successful in plates. lam likewise bound to give the Thames Iron Company credit for ham mered plates ; but lately, from the cause I have mentioned, the hammered plates have been considered less successful. Another point is the annealing, or gradually cooling, pro , cess. We tried annealing, and in some cases were successful and in others we failed. We actually took the same plate and annealed one half, leaving the other half unannealed, but the effect in respect to both was very much the same, so completely are we in a state of uncertainty as to the result of different processes. We are, however, in good hopes that we are beginning to know what we are now about, and that we shall succeed in having a regular supply of plates. (Hear, hear.) I have already stated that by the end of the year we shall have altogether, including the ships at sea as well as those under construction, nine large armour-plated ships and one small one ready for sea. In the spring of next year we shall have a great develop ment again. We shall then have the Ocean, a wooden line of battle ship, armour-plated ; the Valiant. sister to the Hector, an intermediate class between the Sovereign and Resistance ; the Prince Albert, the second ship on the tur ret principle, in which Capt. Coles is to mount six guns ; and the Achilles, building at Chatham. We hope they will be afloat and sea-ready almost by April in next year, and also the Achilles, sister to the Warrior, the Royal Alfred, and the Zealous. Then, as to small ships, we have two—the Favourite and the Research, to which I have already alluded, making in all 18 armour-plated ships ready for sea by April in next year. Under these circumstances, I hope the hon. member for Norfolk will admit that we are mak ing progress in preparing ships for launching. There are three extremely large ships of upwards of 6,600 tons each —namely, the Agincourt, the Minotaur, and the Northum berland. When these ships will be ready I cannot pretend to say, as that matter depends on the contractors. I be lieve that they are making great exertions to get the vessels ready, but, of course, it is not in my power to state when they will be finished. I will state what we propose to do with respect to the armour-plated fleet. We propose to convert another line-of-battle ship, called the Repulsive, similar to the Zealous and a very fine ship, and we also propose to prepare frames for five more large, wooden, armour-plated ships. Having now a large stock of timber, it is really a matter of economy that we should construct these vessels in our dock yards. Then comes the great question of wood versus iron. Undoubtedly, when we come to ships of very large tcnnage, iron has the advantage. Wooden vessels are subject to great vibration when put to high speed, and time damaged them and caused them to decay. Wooden vessels cannot be said to be lasting ; but the committee should remember that we, after all, are not worse than other nations which are building wooden ships, and there fore it is advisable that, having a good stock of timber on hand, we should construct a certain number more of these ships. Hon. gentlemen—mercantile gentlemen will, I know, say, build them of iron; and it may happen shortly that some one will give us the means of keeping their bottoms clean. In consequence of their fouling they are not so use ful as wooden ships, as long as the latter last. The Con troller of the Navy will tell you that if you are to have iron ships you ought almost to have one dock for every ship. We are covering our iron ships' bottoms with paint of every description, and there is actually a trial being made to enamel them. We are endeavouring to get over the difficulty arising from the fouling on the bottoms in every possible way, feeling that as long as that mischief exists we must think that for many purposes wooden vessels are superior to iron. As an argument in favour of iron vessels, I may say that Admiral Robinson, the Controller of the Navy, has gone very carefully into the average cost to the country of maintaining a wooden fleet, and he has come to the conclu sion that for every man that you vote for your navy you must put down £lO for the mere wages of artificers to keep the ships in repair. Thus, supposing you have 76,000 men, the wages for artificers for keeping the ships in repair would amount to £760,000 a year. Ido not mean to say whether this calculation is right or wrong, but hon. gentlemen have the power to judge of these matters for themselves because there is annually laid on the table of the House a detail of the cost of every ship in the navy. I still avoid stating ex actly what is to be the armament of any ship, because I do not think that any one could give a proper opinion as to what will be the armament. (Hear.) Great experiments are going on. Mr. Whitworth says that he can make a gun capable of sending a projectile through anything; while others pretend that ho cannot. But we have this consola tion in regard to all the ships we are building, that they can carry thicker plates if necessary. Before I quit this subject of ships I wish to say, speaking entirely on my own responsi bility, that I believe an invention is coming out which will produce a great reform in the masting of vessels. Captain Coles, who is well known as a very clever and in• genious officer, has invented a system of masting which will altogether do away with rigging. This system consists in having an iron cylinder for the mast,' supported by two other cylinders. If this invention succeeds it will prevent the mast falling so as to foul the screw. This has not been tried yet, but I mention the matter, in order to show we are anxious to take advantage of every invention. I think I have now made the committee acquainted as well as I am able with the progress of our ship-buildingloperations. There is a certain number of small ships likewise building which are really not of surpassing interest at the present day in comparison with the armour-plated ships. Having dealt with the skin, I now come to the pith and marrow and bone of the navy—namely, the seamen. We take this year a vote for the same number of officers, seamen, ma rines, and toys as we took last year—namely, 76,000. There is, in fact, a small increase, because the civilians—a class of men in the Customhouse left as a legacy by the Customhouse to the Admiralty, are fast disappearing, and as they disappear their places are supplied by seamen in the coastguard. Their number was last year 1,150. This year it is only 1,000; so that there is really this small in crease of 150 men. The men are distributed as follows : I should, perhaps, weary the house if I told them what are the ships at every station. I will therefore content myself with giving the numbers in the Channel fleet and on the Mediterranean, North American, and Indian stations. In the Channel we have one ship-of-the-line, the Revenge, four of these iron-plated frigates, and one other vessel—that is, six ships. They carry 187 guns and are manned by 3,146 men. In the Mediterranean we have 6 ships of the line, 5 frigates and corvettes, and 15 other vessels. These 26 ships earry 706 guns:and are manned by 8,524 men. On the North American and West Indian station we have 1 ship of the line, 8 frigates and corvettes, and 22 other vessels. These 31 ships carry 543 guns and are manned by 6,573 men. On the East India and China stations, where we have charged ourselves with the extra duties of the Indian navy, which existed up to last year, we have 4 frigates and corvettes and 29 other vessels, These 33 ships carry 234 guns and are manned by 3,528 men. On distant stations we have 14 fri gates and corvettes and 40 other vessels. These 54 ships carry 587 guns and are manned by 8,566 men. The result of the whole is that we have 150 ships in commission, car rying 2,257 guns and manned by 30,337 men. That is our force afloat. In addition we have various services, ships ordered home and on surveying service, taking 14,638 men. We have reserves of seamen, and I know my right hon. friend attazhes great interest to the number of reserves in home ports. Within the last few weeks we have told off a line-of-battle ship's crew for the Royal Oak, and they are ready to go on board as soon as they are wanted. The pre sent number of reserves is 3,000. (Hear, hear.) The su pernumerary warrant officers, kroomen, &c., number 4,000, We have boys under training, independent of those in the fleet, to the number of 2,050. We have 11,000 marines on shore. The coastguard afloat, including tenders and block ships, number 4,652, and the coastguard ashore 4,000. The grand total is 73,687 men on Feb. 23, irrespective of civi lians, showing that we are some few hundred short, princi pally marines and boys, and of course we are taking steps to complete their full number. (Hear, hear.) I may give the committee the assurance that nothing can be more sa tisfactory or more contented than the condition of the seamen of the fleet. We have not yet got rid of the bounty men, but so important does the Admiralty think it that, in order to clear them off as soon as possible, they have brought home several ships and paid them off, with the view of getting rid of those men. (Hear, hear) Every gentleman must be sorry that it should be necessary to re sort to flogging. Discipline requires that we should have the power, but it is our earnest desire to keep down the punishments as much as possible, and I hope next year to be able to make a much more satisfactory statement than even the present. (Hear, hear.) The popularity of the servicemay be seen f rom thi s f a ct :—At the commencement of the conti nuous - service system there was cons id era bl e difficulty in induci ng the men to enter for continuous ser vice. Our present position is that more than three-fourths are continuous -service men, which gives us great facility in manning the navy ; because the men who have come home and gone on leave join fresh ships. The committee will re member that it was determined to put the men in two classes, and that men in the first class should not be liable to flogging. Of the whole number 87 per cent, of the men in the fleet belong to the first class by their own good con duct, leaving only 13 per cent. in the second class. (Hear, hear.) The Admiralty have used great endeavours to orga nise barracks for seamen. We are going to commence bar racks at Portsmouth. We have not progressed so rapidly as might be wished, became we found that the site was not central enough. We have transferred that site to the War office, who have given us a site near the north end of the dockyard, with which, in consequence of the fortifications, they are able to dispense. We propose to begin at De vonport, and also to lay the foundations of barracks at Portsmouth. (Hear, hear.) Before I quit the subject of punishment let me advert to the boys. The system is developing itself with great success, and we principally owe the good conduct of the men to the ships having been manned by those who wore our own boys. A great debt of gratitude is due to Sir F. Grey for the I care and attention which he has bes'owed on this subject, and he assures me that, to the best of his belief, in the course of a short time our navy may be filled up en tirely by our own boys, with the exception of 600 or 700 men, who will be required to enter from other sources. (Hear, hear.) The reason we have been able to put down punishment is because you have generously given us the means by which those changes have been made. *you have expended vast sums in the education of these toys, and you are now beginning to reap the reward of your great expenditure for the benefit of the navy. (Cheers.) We are trying various methods of ventila tion, and we believe that when the ships are properly ven tilated there will be a great decrease in the sick lists. (Hear.) Lastly comes the question of cooking. There was a great desire to be able to cook soft bread. We found that it was rather objected to, and the men preferred biscuit. But we attribute it not to any dislike of soft bread, but be cause they can get their savings of biscuit, which they can not of bread. We are trying a new cooking apparatus, by which we hope to be able to give not only soft bread, but roast meat, as a change for the meat which is now habi tually salt. (Hear, hear.) I now turn to the subject of the Naval Reserve. That great body of merchant seamen, which has now become a national institution, has largely increased in number during the last year. (Hear, hear.) Last year the number of men enrolled was 10,000. We have now nearly 17,000, of whom 15,000 are drilled and perfectly ready to serve their country. (Hear, hear.) Of these 7,000 are at home and can bo called out at any moment. It is impossible for me to speak too highly of this valuable force. (Hear.) We have also established a body of officers in connection with the Naval Reserve, Of the 400 officers which Parliament empowered us to engage we have already 191, which in a single year is a considerable number to ob tain. (Hear, hear.) Then we have the Naval Coast Volunteers, a very fair body of men, whom we think may still improve. At present we have no power to take these men bee and 100 leagues from their own shores. It ap pears to us very desirable that, in the event of our re quiring the services of this force, we should not be confined to employing them within so limited a distance. (Hear.) We believe that by a little more care in the selection of re cruits we may be able to induce seafaring men to join the force on the understanding that a more extended use is to be made of their services should necessity require them. Accordingly it will be my duty to introduce a bill for the purpose of reorganising that force. (Hear.) A body of pen sioners and riggers completes the sum of our naval forces. I have now shown to the committee that while the Govern went have endeavoured to enforce a strict economy, they have done so without making any reduction in the num ber of our forces. (Hear.) 1 understand that there are some who think we are going too far. I sincerely hope that whatever the committee may do, they will at least not com pel the Government to curtail the number of this magnifi cent body of men. There are several minor items with which I need not now trouble the committee, but about which hon. members may perhaps desire information when we come to the particular votes. For instance, there is a small increase, which I have no doubt will be cheerfully conceded, in the pay of colonels of marines. We also pro pose to reorganise the establishment of clerks in the dock yards. At present each dockyard has its own special staff, but we desire to mass them together, so that we may be able to command the services of each clerk at any station we choose. In that way we hope to secure both greater economy and efficiency. We are also desirous of making a small increase in the establishment of the Comptroller of the Navy, the business of which has quite outgrown the staff. I hope I have satisfied the committee by what I have said that in reducing the expenditure the Government have not in any way sacrificed the interests of the navy. In consequence of the great sums which Parliament has granted to the Admiralty we have been enabled to make an im portant addition to the fleet, to furnish our dockyards with ample stores, and to reorganise our magnificent forces. Mr. Massey, I beg to move a vote of £2,921,951 for the wages of 76,000 seamen and marines. Sir J. PAKINGTON—I am happy to say that I have heard nothing in the very interesting statement of my noble friend to render it necessary for me to trouble the committee with more than a few observations. lam still more happy to say that I find nothing in the estimates, any more than in the speech of my noble friend, which requires me to make serious objections to any portion of the pro posals of the Government. (Hear, hear.) A very strong and natural desire has prevailed both on the part of Parlia ment and the country that the enormous amount which the Navy Estimates had reached during the last few years should be reduced as far as was compatible with the inte rests of the service. It is therefore very satisfactory to learn that the Government have made the estimates for this year less by a million than those of the year before. I think my noble friend is justified in claiming for the Government credit for effecting that reduction without encroaching on the efficiency of the navy. (Hear, hear.) Those points to which the advocates of a strong navy attach most import ance are the maintenance of an adequate number of men and progress in the building of that new class of vessels the value of'which is every year becoming more apparent. (Hear.) lam afraid thas those opinions are not shared by all the gentlemen on both sides of the committee—but I feel bound to express my own satisfaction that the Government has not proposed any reduction in the number of men. That has been a wise and prudent resolve. Irrespective of the extent of the force we are asked to vote, every one must have heard with unqualified gratification the state ments of my noble friend as to the improved character of the men. (Hear, hear.) I listened with some anxiety to what my noble friend had to say on the subject of flogging. There can be no doubt that there is a general desire that the discipline of the navy should be maintained without resort to that mode of punishment. I trust that the dis use of corporal punishment may be brought about by the improved character of the seamen, and that the Admiralty will take care not to make any changes calcu lated to impair the discipline of the service. (Hear, hear.) I was also glad to hear of the great increase of continuous service men. My noble friend has adverted to the anxiety I felt bound to express in former years that an end might be put to those discreditable scenes, of which we have recently seen too many, when ships lay in the roadsteads for weeks and months waiting for men. I am glad to know that what I have so long urged is at length accomplished, and that we have now a reserve of seamen, who may be draughted to any ship which re quires a crew. I am only sorry that we have not had a more satisfactory statement as to the accommodation pro vided for the reserve. 1 fear that the greater part of them are scattered about in hulks and elsewhere, and I regret that tho Government did not see fit to take a larger vote for barracks this year. (Lord C. Paget—We can only go on with the foundations at first.) I trust, however, that the Government do not intend to delay the progress of the works. Looking to the importance of a permanent reserve, I hope that no mere wish to cut down a vote has led the Government to propose a smaller sum for this item, and that no time really will be lost in the completion of those bar racks. (Hear.) Another important item is the progress of our ships ; and here again I am happy to say that I regard the statement of the noble lord as perfectly satisfactory. I was glad to hear from him that there are no less than 21 armour covered vessels now in progress, and that by the end of the year ten will be ready for commission. I feel some doubts with regard to the success of all the different classes of these ships; but looking to the fact that this new class of men-of-war is yet in its infancy, considerable lati tude ought certainly to be left to the Government in trying those experiments without which we cannot hope to ar rive at any successful result. (Hear, hear.) I doubt very much whether the advantages possessed by that larger class of ships—the Minotaur, the Northumberland, and the Agincourt—which the present Admiralty are building, covered entirely with armour from one end to the other, and larger by 500 or 600 tons than the Warrior and the Black Prince, may not be purchased too dearly, and whether they will be really found to be good sea-going ships in heavy weather. The cupola ships must be regarded as a matter of experiment, and I am not disposed to blame the Admiralty for trying them. So with regard, too, to the new class of ships, of which no one I suppose has heard anything until to-night, which have been recommended by the new Con structor of the Navy, Mr. Reed. I cannot mention Mr. Reed's name without expressing my regret at the unusual course which the Admiralty have taken in placing a gen tleman entirely unconnected with the Admiralty in such a high position over the heads of an establishment which un doubtedly contains within itself some persons of great abi lity and skill. I should be sorry to say a word which would do injustice to Mr. Reed, for it happens that he is secretary to the Institute of Naval Architects, of which I have the honour to be president. I have seen much of him during the last few years, and know more of him personally than ofany of the dockyard officials • All the intercourse I have had with him has given me a high opinion of his character and his general abilities. (Hear.) But with all the respect I feel for him, I cannot but regret that the Admiralty have taken the unusual course of placing him over the head of such a man as Mr, Oliver Lang, for instance, a gentleman whose scientific requirements have been proved by the construction of some of the finest ships in the navy. I entirely approve what the Admiralty are doing at Chatham. Whether I ap prove what my hon. friend has been saying at Chatham is a different matter—(a laugh)—perhaps he may have said a good deal more there than was discreet, but putting aside his dinners and his speeches, I quite concur in what he is doing there. I myself, when in office, always expressed my intention of spending a considerable sum of money in mak ing Chatham our chief naval arsenal, and I am sorry to see that only £20,000 is proposed this year for that purpose. With regard to the question of barracks, I understand my noble friend to say that the Government were not indisposed to press them forward, and that the N ote was only limited by the power of expenditure within the year. (Hear.) To that part of my noble friend's speech which referred to the improved ventilation of our men-of-war I listened with some regret. I understood him last year to say that a com mission had been appointed to consider this subject, and from the tone of his speech to-night I am led to infer that that commission has not re p or t e d, or that it has not been a ble to make any suggest i ons on w hi c h th e Admiralty would venture to act. 1 h ave rece i ve d a c ommunication la tel y that four of ou r s hi ps on th e W es t I n dia station —the Fire brand, the Spiteful, the Jason, and the Ra cer—wen at tacked by the y e ll ow f ever i n 1861, and I am told that in these ships th ere were 334 oases o f yellow fever, of w hich a considerable n um b er en d e d f a tally. I hope the attention of the Admiralty will be directed to the subject. (Hear, hear.) Mr. BAXTER was grieved at the remark which had fallen from the hon. member for Norfolk on the subject of French invasion—(hear) —and was surprised to hear the hon. member for Chatham say that we ought to have a navy not only prepared to grapple with that of France, but to resist the navies of France, Russia, Austria, and Turkey combined. He would not, however, move an amendment, because he thought that the navy was a popular as well as a necessary service, and also because he saw in the estimates, as they had been presented to the House, an earnest proof of the desire of the Government to make a salutary and substantial saving. At the same time, he could not help remarking upon the fact that vra now possessed no less than fifty-six wooden screw line-of battle ships, which the noble lord the Secretary for the Admiralty had already stigmatised as floating slaughter houses for our seamen. He hoped that that would be re medied in future, by building lighter and swifter vessels of the Alabama class, which vessel, without carrying a large armament or a numerous crew, had performed ex ploits altogether unprecedented in the annals of war. Above all things, he hoped the naval reserve system would be fostered and preserved. Sir J. ELPHINSTONE cordially supported the vote for 57,000 men; but, cousideriog that the Government had now all the Indian navy on their backs, he was afraid they would find they had taken upon themselves an amount of work they might some day regret. With regard to iron ships, he was afraid the Government had undertaken the adoption of too many classes of those ves sels before they properly understood the true principles of their rigging and construction. The hon. baronet then protested against the appointment of Mr. Reed, who had been secretary to a debating society, as chief constructor of the navy, over the heads of such well known and talented men as Mr. Laing, Mr. Abethell. and Mr. Moody—two of whom, notwithstanding the statement of the noble lord (Lord C. Paget) as to their being "old," were now in the prime of life, and the third was very little older than his lordship himself. (Hear.) The hon. baronet also recom mended that greater attention should be paid to the ventila tion of men-of-war, and mentioned a case where he had found the thermometer 50 on deck and 78 in the men's berths below. He was sorry to fins that that vessel had lately been ordered to a West Indian station. He was de lighted that corporal punishment was decreasing, and he hoped the time would come when it would altogether cease. (Hear, hear.) Admiral WALCOTT could not express his unqualified satisfaction at the reductions which had been stated ey the noble lord ; for it should never be forgotten that it Was upon her navy that this country had mainly to depend. Mr. COBDEN said there were not two opinions in this country as to the patriotic maxims which the gallant admi ral had put forth with such emphasis. There was no one in the house who was not of opinion that England must main tain a navy superior to any other in the world. (Hear, hear.) But no country in the world denied our legitimate right to have such a navy, nor was there any necessity to make this a ground of antagonism. It was simply from our insular position and our commerce, which was larger than that of any other country in the world, that we were entitled to have a larger fleet than other nations. No one disputed our legitimate right to such a fleet, but the effi ciency and strength of a navy did not necessarily depend, as in other days, on the number of men Noted for it. If they put one hundred thousand sailors, the best in the world, on board the ships that now belonged to her Majesty's navy, there was not one nautical authority present or elsewhere who would not admit that a score of iron-clad vessels, which were probably now in existence on the other side of the At lantic, with 1-20th of those men on board, could destroy the whole of the 100,000 sailors. (Hear, hear.) It was no longer a question of mere brute force and numbers; it was a ques tion of science and skill—in fact of intelligence. They were asked to vote 76,000 men, and he did not see why he should be accused of any want of patriotism if he objected to that number. He objected to 76,000 for this reason. He denied that they could employ them in any ships they had in which they could 1-e of any use to the country. That was the maximum number employed in the Crimean war. It was a war establishment. The Americans were this year carrying on a war with a coast of 3,500 miles to blockade, and their navy estimates amounted only to £13,000,000, while we in a time of peace were going to vete £11,000,000. What was to be done with these seamen? A large number must be applicable to those large wooden line-of-battle ships which unhappily were built by the precipitation of the right hon. gentleman opposite, and by the gross inconsistency of the present Secretary of the Admiralty. He said inconsist ency, because seven years ago the noble lord told the house that the day of the old line-of-battle ships had gone by. He said the fate of empires would not in future depend on line of-battle ships, which were not suited to the modern mode of warfare. Every other nautical authority had preached the same doctrine. Admiral Napier, not long before his death, declared in that house that a line-of-battle ship, struck by a modern percussion shell, would have a hole driven in her side large enough to drive a wheel-barrow through. Another gallant officer in that house said that a line-of battle ship, attacked by these modern percussion shells, would be nothing but a slaughter-house. He asked any prac tical man whether, if we had a war with America to-morrow, he would send one of our line-of-battle ships, with 700 sr 800 men, and 30 or 40 tons of gunpowder on board, to meet the iron-clad Monitor on the other side of the Atlantic. He had heard the hon. member for Finsbury say that a Go vernment who sent a wooden line-of-battle ship into action against these modern shell guns would deserve to be im peached. He (Mr. Cobden) was not speaking from his own authority, but was docile in learning from those who knew better than himself. He took the authority of one of the ablest of nautical men—Capt. Halstead—who said as the result of experiment that the ninth round from a modern shell gun would set a wooden vessel in flames, which would be quite inextinguishable. If that was known these line-of battle ships were useless for the purpose of warfare, as were also our great wooden frigates, and the £20,000 or £30,000 they were now voting for such vessels was really thrown away. He challenged any naval officer to contradict him when he said that our 64 line-of-battle ships, including the coastguard vessels, would be utterly useless in case of war ; and our large frigates might be considered to share tka same fate. That being the case, was it not delusive to suppose that in maintaining these vessels we were increasing our strength. The Government were straining the expenditure up to a point at which people were clamorous for a reduction, and would it not be better to have 20,000 fewer sailors and put the finances of the country in better order, than to have a large number of wooden vessels, which all admitted would be of no use in case of war. He objected to the number of seen, and also to the whole expenditure of the navy, because as the hon. member for Montrose had said, and as he heard the late Sir J. Graham once state in the house when they had voted the number of men they had voted the expenditure of the navy in all its departments. He was surprised that the hon. member for Montrose had made so much concession on the subject of the reduction of £1,000,000 for stores. That reduction really meant that they must buy more stores next year. The hon. member for Montrose said the Secre tary to the Admiralty was too apologetic in his tone, but he was himself too apologetic for the Government in his remarks upon the estimates. This was, in fact, no per manent reduction. Moreover, he did not think they could keep 76,000 men afloat for £10,500,000, because they were constantly increasing the price of their vessels. An old line-of-battle ship cost £200,000, but on the new principle, with iron armour, would cost £350,000 ; and if they laid out a vast amount of capital in these expensive ships they wanted fewer men, because they did not require quite the same number of ships. If one of these iron-clad gunboats would go into a fleet of wooden vessels, like a lion among a flock of sheep, it implied that it possessed a vastly increased force in consequence of the construction, and if they built a line-of-battle ship in the same way they would vastly in crease its force and power, and they would not want so many of them nor so many sailors. The ship Agincourt was 6,000 odd tons and threw a broadside of 1,3221b5. ; but that was three times the tonnage and broadside of the Vic tory, on which Nelson won the battle of Trafalgar. The Victory had 1,100 or 1,200 men, but the Agincourt, with three times its strength and 100 times its strength if they put iron against wood, had only 704 men, which showed that as they increased the amount of capital expended in these vessels they required fewer men to work them. It was a fallacy, therefore, to suppose they must keep up the num ber of 76,000 men. To send them afloat in ships in which they would be serviceable, they must spend not £10,000,00 0 but £20,000,000 more on the navy. It was only within the last few years that men of genius, mechanicians, and others, had directed their attention to these new armaments ; but although we were only beginning the work of invention with regard to implements of warfare, how rapidly we had gone on. He sat on a committee in 1848, in which Sir Thomas Hastings said he had no doubt whatever that it a screw were put into a line-of-battle ship, it would make it much less effective as a man - of - war , and that opinion was backed by other officers. What h ad happened since ? Their sailing vessels had wholly disappeared; and he must say it was something like insanity on the part of the Go vernment to rush into building more wooden line-of-battle ships after they knew the success of iron-clad vessels. (Hear, hear.) In 1863 they had 64 of these wooden line-of battle ships, and he defied the Government to produce any nautical authority who would send one of them to oppose an iron-clad vessel. This should make them a little cautious of what they were now doing. (Hear.) Rich as we were, could we afford, with all these rapid transitions, and having this stock of line-of-battle ships, including coast guard vessels, to carry out even these novelties on a grand scale ? We had now 20 iron-clad broadside port vessels, but were we sure that in 10 years hence they might not be super seded by others? Capt. Cowper :Coles led them to expect that he would supersede them entirely by his turret ships. They must also bear in mind that in America they were now hardly building any but turret vessels, and built one eve ry fortnight. In a little tract Capt. Coles showed the superiority of his over the broadside iron-clad vessels, and if his view were correct we were running the greatest risk in building any more of them. Capt. Coles put in parallel columns the Agincourt and an armour plated ship throw ing:an equal weight of broadside built on his principle. He mentions the Agincourt as carrying 704 men, her draught as 26 feet 2 inches, her cost as £385,342, weight of broad side as 1,3221b5., and tonnage as 6,021 tons. His turret ship he put down at draught 22 feet instead of 26 feet, as carrying 200 men instead of 704,- as throwing the same return. The system was a disgrace to the country, and deterred many from entering the service, The motion was then agreed to, and the house went into committee of supply. The Navy Estimates. The house then resolved itself into Committee of Supply on these estimates, and iu bringing them forward ) Lord C. PAGET said—lf I were to state to the commit tee as a matter of congratulation that I was in a position to propose to them a considerable reduction of the navy esti mates, without being able at the same time to show them that the reduction would be carried into effect without in terfering with the efficiency of the service, I do not think I should be making a statement which would furnish a sub ject for congratulation to the house or to the country. If however I can show you that, owing to the great generosity of Parliament, we have been enabled to make enormous exertions during the last few years, and to place the navy, both as regard personnel and material, on a satisfactory footing, then I may, I trust, be allowed to possess a fair claim to congratulate the committee on the prospect of our maintaining it in that position, while we effect a great reduc tion in our outlay for the purpose. That the navy was never in a more efficient state than at the present moment, both so far as the seamen are concerned, and as relates to our pro gress in the construction of that class of ships which has lately come into vogue, I can, I think, notwithstanding the suspicions of any hon. friend the member for Norfolk, without difficulty prove. I may add that during the de bates which may take place on the subject, I shall, if possible, refrain from alluding to other Powers at all—(hear, hear)—for I have found that comparisons between our naval resources and those of foreign nations produce somewhat of ill-feeling. I therefore deem it desirable that we should confine ourselves as much as possible to our own affairs. (Hear, hear.) Now, the total vote which I have to propose to the committee for the naval service for the years 1863 4 amounts to £10,736,032, the estimate for 1862-3 having been £11,794,305, showing a decrease of £1,058,273 in the estimate for the present as compared with that for the last year. This decrease will be found to pervade the whole of the estimates with a few exceptions, the only real increase which occurs under any head this year being in the vote for the transport service—a vote over which the Admiralty has no control, inasmuch as the instructions on which it de pends emanate from the War-office, and we are bound to carry them into effect. The cause of the increase in the present instance is, I may observe, mainly due to the re moval of troops in large numbers to distant stations. There are, for instance, two regiments to be sent to New Zealand and others to be brought back, the cost of which proceeding is no less than £61,576, exclusive of the suste nance of the men. In all the other votes there is, I may say, a decrease. In vote No. 1, that which has reference to the wages of the seamen—there is an apparent decrease, but not a real one. I have seen it, indeed, stated in some of the public journals that we were about to reduce the pay of the sailor, but that is not the fact. We propose the same vote far seamen as before, but I have taken certain liberties with these estimates which I shall now explain. The effect of the change which I have made will, I think, be found to be advantageous, and I will briefly state in what it consists. First of all there is connected with each vote an explanatory statement, which is a mere matter of account, and which I have removed to an ap pendix at the end of the estimates. From vote No. 1 also I have transferred certain items which appertain to the Victualling Board, and which relate mainly to bedding, clothes, and a variety of matters of that nature, which, in my opinion, ought years ago to have been so transferred. If, therefore, the committee will follow me they will see that so far from there being any decrease in vote No. 1 it is in reality the same, and that we simply transfer a certain sum to vote No, 2. Taking the two votes together, hawever— that for the victualling and the pay—you will observe that there is on the two a decrease of £101,277. This decrease is due principally that almost every article supplied to the sea men in the shape of provisions is much cheaper at the pre sent time than used to be the case. There is indeed one article—vinegar—which is rather dearer than formerly, but as it is notmuch drunk in the navy—(a laugh)—its increased cost is not a matter of very much importance, while, the price of all the other articles having been reduced, we have been enabled to effect a considerable reduction under this head. The next vote on which there is any important de crease is that fcr artificers, and if my hon. friend the mem• ber for Norfolk would have the goodness to attend to me for a moment—(Mr. Bentinck, who appeared to be fast asleep, was at this point awakened from his slumbers by an hon. gentleman sitting behind him, amid the laughter of the committee)—he would, I have no doubt, be disposed to of the bill until within the last few weight of broadside, her tonnage as 3 , 272 tons instead of i not aware of the nature' 6,021, and her cost as only £203,518 instead of £385,342. days. They therefore v vanted time to consider it. He There was a saving at once of more than two-thirds in men I moved the adjournment of the debate. and nearly one-half in money. That was not, however, Mr. MAGUIRE secondeo, l the motion. the only advantage, as Capt. Coles states that with his Alter a few words from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, turret ships he can throw a ball weighing 3001bs or 4001b5., Mr. Ayrton, and Mr. Cox, whereas in the broadside port ships balls exceeding 1101bs. The debate was P adjourned unfil lOFriday S. ÜBLIC ACCUN. could not be fired. He further states that the American turret boats are being fitted with guns of 15 inch bore, car- The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved rying solid shot of and that all their iron-clad Moni- that the following gentlemen form the committee of public tors were mounted with guns of 4501b5. It did not accounts : Sir F. BarLng, Mr. E. P. Bouverie, Sir S. need that a man should be a sailor to draw conclusions Northcote, Mr. Feel, Mr. G. C. Glynn, Mr. Cobden, Sir from these figures. Every man of common sense could H. Willoughby, Mr. Howes, and Mr. Walpole. understand that a broadside port ship with guns of 1101bs Mr. P. HENNESSY mo ved that the name of Colonel would have no chance as against ships throwing 4501 b. Dunn e be added. shot. That was Captain Coles's case, and accepting his A fter a few words from rhe NCELLOR of the Ex authority and facts, the conclusion appeared to be that his CHEQUER the house divided. tut ret vessels would as assuredly supersede the broadside The numbers 46 were— port vessels as the screw line-of-battle ships superseded the For the amen dment ..... ...... .• 2l sailing vessels. The turret ships not having open ports Ag ainst 25 were quite invulnerable; they might be hammered at for Ma j orit y a g ainst .... a day, and not a man be lost, and that was a further rea- On the motion being put, ' . the debate. son why so large a number of men would not be required. Mr . HENNESSY moved the adjournment in (Hear, hear.) The committee ought not therefore to rush The house divided, whey the amendment was negatived hand over head in this matter. He did not like to attribute by ;12 having voted for, and 39 against it. motives, but his noble friend had confirmed a suspicion he The committee, as named, was then agreed to. entertained before. He never could understand why the Sir E. GROGAN obtained leave to introduce a bill to Admiralty were purchasing such an enormous stock o f amend t e marriage laws of Ireland. timber. The average consumption used to be about 30,000 The house adjourned at five minutes past two o'clock. loads a year ; now when they ought to be substituting iron I for wood, the stock of timber amounted to 112,001 loads. Tee reason clearly was to enable the Admiralty to say that having got such a quantity in the dockyards they ought to go on building iron-clad vessels. He was told by a friend last year that it was all done by the officials, and that the political chief of the department knew nothing about it— that the port admirals could not walk about without breaking their shins over timber—(laughter)—and that the fact of having it would be made an excuse for building more broadsde port vessels. He (Mr. Cobden) had no faith in the Admiralty. He agreed in that matter with the hon. member for Norfolk (Mr. Bentinek) ; perhaps it was the only matter in which they ever agreed — he would concur with him in a vote of want of confidence in the Admiralty. They were al ways wrong—(laughter) —or doing what was right at the wrong time. His noble friend assured them that the men were in a high state of discipline ; that he had an admirable fleet. The noble lord has got plenty of timber, and he only wants some large docks to waste as much money as ever. It was, he contended, waste of money to cover wooden vessels with armour plating. Who recommended the Admiralty to cover wood with iron? Would they veneer pasteboard with marble I (Hear.) There was some excuse for iron pla ing when they had a number of screw line-of-battle ships to use iu that way—but there was no excuse for it now. If the house would listen to authority instead of to the Admiralty, they would put a stop to such a proceeding. Sir W. Alex ander, Mr. Fairbairn, Sir Morton Peto—men who, from their professional pursuits, knew what the result of using iron upon timber would be—emphatically declared against putting the harder substance upon the softer and more flexible, the effect of which would be that the vessel would shake to pieces, and all the money spent on the process be thrown away. Why would not the Admiralty suspend the building of these monster broadside port vessels until Capt. Coles's turret-ships were tested by experiment ? If they did they would in a short time be able to judge what course it was best to adopt. The noble lord promised that Capt. Coles's vessel should be ready in October or November next. He (Mr. Cobden) predicted that it would not be finished until March twelvemonth, but whenever it was ready, why should they not pause until the merits of the cupola were fully ascertained ? It was the opinion of scientific men that ships should be built entirely of iron, and that was the moral of all he had to say. Such ships would be practically inde structable, and if they were adopted, the enormous number of 76,000 men now in the service would not be required. He was not about to move any reduction in the number of men. (Hear, hear.) He had been many years in the house, and never yet knew an estimate to be altered. His late respected friend, Mr. Joseph flume, told him that during 40 years he did not know an instance of an esti mate being altered This, however, he did know, that when in 1848 the income tax was refused by the house, the Government took back their estimates, and managed very much to reduce them, and Mr. Hume informed him that in 1817 or 1818, when the house declined to recommend the income tax, the Government took back the estimates and reduced them enormously. If therefore the house wanted reduction, it should be effected before the estimates were introduced, by letting the government know that there were some members connected with the manu facturing and industrial districts of the country, whose busi ness it was to see that such an enormous waste of public money did not take place, and by letting the noble lord at the head of the Government know that if he introduced excessive estimates somebody, for whom he would not be responsible, would have the expending of the money. The estimates would be reduced if the Government thought that such a fate awaited them; but knowing they would not be altered now he did not intend troubling the house with a vote. (Hear.) Mr. LAIRD asked for details of expenditure for old and new ships. We did not get anything like the number of ships in proportion to the sums charged in the estimates for their construction. He spoke in favour of Captain Cowper Coles's turret ship. He was opposed to wood cased with iron. They would fail both with regard to cost and durability. He hoped the Admiralty would stop the con • struction of the other ships till the Royal Sovereign had been tried. Mr. LINDSAY said the number of men had been in creased this year from 7,000 to 8,000 more than la t year, including the Naval Reserve. They were voting more men than they had efficient ships to man. He called attention to our having four or five years' stock of timber, now that he had less use for it than formerly, and that the Admiralty were building wood and iron-cased ships to get rid of it. Since 1856 we had spent ten millions of money in building wooden ships, which was a complete waste to the country. There is no doubt that in the Warrior and Black Prince they had ships for all practical purposes invulnerable. He most willingly testified to the great improvement which had taken place in the discipline of the navy, and to the contented and happy state of the seamen. Still it would be impossible to abolish flogging in the navy, and it was a curious thing that the great majority of the good seamen did not desire to see it done away with. He hoped the noble lord would tell them what their neigh bours were doing, and what number of iron-cased ships he would have ready by April of next year. Mr. BENTINCH regretted that the constitution of the Board of Admiralty had not been brought under discussion, as it lay at the root of all their failures to reduce expendi ture. He hoped that upon another occasion it would be admitted that the strength of foreign navies had a most material bearing upon the strength of our own. It was impossible to reconcile the declarations of the hon. member for Rochdale and his friends in favour of maintaining an efficient navy with their outcry for sweeping reductions. Lord C. PAGET reminded the committee that private builders built iron-cased ships more quickly than the Government, because they did not test their plates as the Government did theirs. That was the sole cause of the delay in the Government yards. If they built wooden ships, it must be remembered that the iron-plated vessels were lined with a backing of wood, and that, in order to protect the plates from the effects of concuss on, they must do so. Mr. COBDEN said the teak which was used for the backing of the iron-cased ships did not require to be sea • Boned, and therefore the noble lord might safely sell the 112,000 loads of timber he had in store. Sir F. SMITH recommended the Government to con centrate all their efforts upon the building of a single turret ship. They would then be in a position to judge as to the future. The Case of Child Murder at Stepney. Mr. John Humphreys, one of the Middlesex coroners, yesterday resumed at the King's Arms Tavern, Beaumont-square, Stepney, the inquiry re specting the death of the child of Caroline Burns, a girl only 15 years of age, who, it was alleged, had been seduced, and had subsequently murdered her offspring under very extraordinary circumstances. The girl Burns was a servant in the employ of a respectable family in Beaumont-square, and had any excellent character. On the 3d inst., she went about her avocations as usual, although apparently a little weak. Her mistress, Mrs. Hill, however, in taking some clothes from a press, found the body of a child, which rolled out upon the floor. Mr. Atkins, ti Burg, on, was called in, and ho discovered that Carotine Burns had given birth to the child. that morning, and that it had been born alive. A piece of tape had been placed around the neck, in which there was a deep indentation. Part of the face was livid, and the nose was flattened. Death had resulted from suffocation. The girl stated that in Miry last, as she was returning home, she was followed by a man near Stt pney church. She en deavoured to avoid him, but he overtook her, and placed something over her face that took her breath away. He took her into a house, where her senses failed her. The man subsequently, she stated, threatened her with vengeance if she disclosed any thing of what took place, and she was so terrified that she kept the secret, Mrs. Jane Hill said that she remembered that on the day indicated by the girl she came home an hour and a half past her time, and she appeared as if she had been flurried through running. The next day she was very ill, but - said that it was through having had to run in the street. The girl was very steady and industrious, and always, except . on that one occasion, kept good hours. The girt had concealed her condition from the family, none of whom had any suspicion of it. Mr. F. Gant, F.R.C.S., and anatomist at the Royal Free Hospital, said that he had made a post mortem examination of the deceased. He found the ligature which had been placed around the de ceased's neck stained with blood. There were marks of violence on the face. The child was fully deve loped, had been born alive, and had had separate existence. It had been put to death by means of the cord which was found around its neck, and tightened to produce strangulation. The string had not been used to assist in delivery. Mrs. Hill recalled, identified the cord as one that the girl Burns used to wear in her dress. Emily Parker, 2, Middle Cornwall-street, said that the girl Caroline Burns called to see her (wit ness's daughter) on the 24th January. She said, " When Mr. Hill went away ne gave me los., and kissed me." She said that he was going down to the seaside to Mrs. Hill. She afterwards said that the 15s. were to keep house while he was at Rams gate. She never complained that any violence had been done to her. The daughter of this witness gave similar evi dence. The girl said that her master was very kind to her, but she did not say he had committed any violeree or impropriety. Mr. Atkins, surgeon, said that the girl stated that she knew nothing of the circumstances of the death of the child, as she was insensible, or " lo st" at the time. Caroline Burns, an innocent-looking girl, appa rently about 14 years of age, was cautioned, and asked it she had any statement to make. She said that she would be 16 years of age next birthday. Under the advice of the coroner, she declined to make any further statement. The coroner having summed up, the jury, after long deliberation, returned a verdict of " Wilful murder against Caroline Burns." Tue coroner issued his warrant for the committal ,)! t tte girl to Newgate for trial, and she was taken into custody by Stephens, the officer of the court. COUNTRY MARKETS. t , COLCHESTER—FEB. 21. A fair supply of wheat, but trade dull, and late prieeo barely supported. Barley is to 2s dearer. Beans and peas the turn in favour of the buyer. Wheat, white ..46s 52s Beans, Mazagan..3oB 33 ° red 42s 48s middle & small.3ss 420 Barley Oats GLOUCESTER—FEB. 21. To-day there was a less supply of English wheat frog the farmers, which sold at fully the prices of last week. Foreign was in limited demand. Barley, beans, and oatO were at late prices. The resolution was then agreed to, as were the following votes :—L2,921,951 for wages to seamen and marines ; £1,416,986 for victuals and clothing for ditto; and £165,322 for defraying the charges and expenses of the Admiralty • office. The Chairman was then ordered to report progress, and the house resumed. TOBACCO DUTIES BILL. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the second reading of this bill. It would be his duty to oppose an amendment of which the hon. member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton) had given notice ; and therefore he would reserve any observations on the bill, and simply state that it was his intention in committee to make a ver bal amendment relating to the importation of Cavendish tobacco, by which the British and foreign trades would be Placed on the same footing, and to make some small ad justment in the rate of duty on high-dried Irish snuff. Mr.AYRT ON moved that a select committee be sppointed to inquire int., the expediency of altering the laws for rais ing a revenue upon tobacco. The grounds of the hon. gen tleman's motion were that the relief proposed was only upon the expensive cigars smoked by the rich, while the poor man's tax of 3s. 2d. per lb was to remain untouched. His conviction was that the Exchequer would gain nothing by the proposed reduction. The effect of the change would be to favour the foreign manufacturers of cigars, who had dis covered a process for diminishing the weight of the tobacco leaf.- Another result would be that while the foreign cigar only paid a duty at the rate of Ss., the English cigar, which was precisely similar in all the qualities of smoking, would be charged at the rate of Bs. 2d. per lb. The Continental manufacture was brought to such perfection that parties wero enabled to get tobacco from this country, submit it to the lightening process, and manufacture it into cigars, not withstanding the enormous duty of 9s. 6d. the lb. When the change was made the English manufacturer of cigars would be ruined, and the result would be an agitation for reducing the duty on the raw material under the cry of oppression of the poor man to the advantage of the rich. Tho house ought to inquire into the matter before they attempted any change. The hon. member concluded by moving his amendment. Mr. MAGUIRE seconded it. After some observations from Mr. MARSH in support of the bill, Mr. COX moved the adjournment of the debate. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCIIEQUE It opposed the motion. The house divided. The numbers were — For continuing the debate ................ 90_ IFor the adjournment ........... .......... 42 Majority ........................ 44 Colonel DUNNE said that the people of Ireland were IRD—FEE. 20. -day there was a dull trade it the same as last week. ~,, Yeas, Partridge.. 37s a vP White 39s 0° Boiling 4os 430 Dun 35s 38° Ditto new —s •--° Beans, Tick, old 34s 39 °. new -0 '''''' Harrow Ticks 3sa 400 ....0 new --e Mazagan 305 38° CHELMSF' At this corn exchange to. in everything, and prices sabot Wheat, old white 34s 52s new 36s Ns old red 40s 49s new 36s 47s Barley D's 36s Chevalier 2Bs 39s Grinding 22s 31s Malt. 6lO 67s Chevalier 64s 69s Oats 2os 28s KIRKCALDY GRAIN—FEB. 21. We had good supplies of wheat and oats, but small 0f barley. Sales slow. Prices fully higher. Wheat. Barley. Oats. First—. .35s Od I 26s 6d 2ls Od Second ..41s Od 28s Od 22s Od Third ....43s Od 29s 6d 22s 6d POLISH DIPLOMATIR REPRESENTATIVES. 3" Berlin letter in the Cologne Gazette says—" The Polish emigrants are said to have the intention of choosing diPlO - representatives in the capitals of the great Powel l ' These would be—at Paris, Prince Czartoryski; at Londoll Count Zamoyski ; at Vienna, Prince Sapieha; and at Ber lin, Count Czieskowski." [ADVERTISEMENT.] ---Atmospheric Impttrities.- - ' ll l source and centre of almost every ailment is impurity the blood—dislodge this poison and disease departs. 11° ,`‘ loway's pills exercise the inestimable power of tho rou g h lo cleansing each component of the blood, and rendering tii't fluid fit to pertorm its important functions. They cope °'r successfully with chest diseases, stomach complain ts, li ge disorders, and many other maladies which were once besetting dangers of mankind at certain seasons in tovo-; and country. " The directions for use" enable every I3 st to regulate the operation of these pills with the grot°g.„„ nicety. Chronic invalids, nervous sufferers , and all who other treatment has hitherto failed to relieve are respel3 fully invited to try Holloway's celebrated me di c ine, Whic will strengthen and probably cure them. .. 011 Births. o f MITCHELL.—On the 21st !Ls'., at Woolwich, the wife - Colonel J. Mitchell, Commandant Royal Marines , °'i a daughter. Moss.—On the 23d inst., at 5, Tavistock-street, Bedford; Square, the wife of Captain George MOEIR, of a son heir. WATERLOW.—On the 22.1 inst., at Fairseat House, WO' gate, N., the wife of Mr. Alderman Waterlow, of a 0 011 ' Marriages. COBLEY—RUSSELL.—On the 22d inst. , a t St. Mary's, Be mondsey, J. Cobley, Esq., of the Geor g e Inn, Borough' and Mark-lane, to Hannah Rus sell, of the Geor g e Di Borough. DEANE—COX.—On the 10th inst., at St.Thomas's Cha r- t o Pendleton, the Rev. Cha rles Henr y Deane, M.A.9 0 . Maria Elizabeth, eldest daughter of the late Rev. C. Cox, rector of Oulton, Suffolk. Deaths. CARTARET.—On the 22d inst., in Chesterfield-street, tbe Lady Carteret, aged 86. ohtf COPE. —On the 18th inst., at B embridge, Isle of v , . Miss Elizabeth Cope. GREATTIED.—On the 20th inst., at Manchester , _ O le o ss Mary, the wife of Colonel Greathed, C. 13 of Uddell ' -, Dorset. toe, Joltivszos.—On the 21st inst., D av id M orr ice John s ,, 6 g, Esq., of Moorgate-street, and Old Palace-yard, ag e ` ~.r . MANGLES.—On the 22d i ns t., at Stoke-park, S u rrey, " rid, the wife of Ross Donelly Mangles, Esq. , 1 3 11 MILES.—On the 20th inst , William Miles, Esq. , c " . —llB Elms, near Hornchurch . , Essex, aged 74. RAMSAY.--On th 9 21st instat I • h Colonel R obert ~ pswic , Ramsay, aged 59. —..1 Loudon : Printed and Published by WILLIA.3 I Al' 3) ,. ° 1 4° ' of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at 'lsm Sox 01 0 ' u pti 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, 111• the of Middlesex.—Tuesday, February 2*, 1663. `\\