The Sun. — London, England, 1830-03-13 00:00:00

any great .d ex ars of le, he ) the ids he, pity ad's. his ken • ° decide was, whether or not they would have effective, servants is important offices of the Crown. If the Trea surer of the Navy was to be an effective office, was two thousand pounds a year too much for his salary? it the —Rouse thought so, they would reduce it, but for himself he did not think so. • Lord HOWICK. observed, that any doubt whieh .he might- have entertained of the expediency of his Hon. Friend's motion would have been entirely removed by what had fallen from the Hon. Baronet opposite. The Hon. I l aronet said that it was necessary to have a person of ex perience in the office of the Treasurer of the Nays ; the fact being that the Hon. Gent. who had been appointed to that office could not possibly know any thing of its du ties. It would have been a much better course to have ` made an effective deputy the principal, and have saved the &eery of the latter. It was not merely to the expense, • however, to which he objected. There was another im portant point. His Hon. Friend near him (Sir H. Par • nell), in the able work which he had recently published, • Stated that if the lae Committee of Finance had sat a little longer, they would have proposed to consoialate ell the variou s offices for the payment of the public money. At present there was a Payinsster of the Navy, Paymaster of the Marines, Paymaster of the Forces, and he did not know how many other Paymasters. It was contended, on the opposite side, that the individuals who possessed these Situations could not he dispossessed of them until some op portunity offered of giving these equivalent situations. The principle that was thus established and acted upon was, that if once a man wee quartered upon the public, he must continue to be so. There was one more point in the speech of the Hon. Baronet on which lie wished to 8 -iy a word. The Hon. Baronet had adverted to an opi nion of a Right Hon. Gent., that it was important to have a class of public servants who could devote their attention to the general affairs of the country. Reilly the opponents of his Hon. Friend's proposition must be at a great lose when they mere driven to such an argument as that -2,0001. a year for devoting their attention to the general affairs of the country ! When he (Lord Howick) heard what thol e affairs were, he might then perhaps be induced to refuse to vote with his Hon. Friend. The admission, however, of the -Hon. Baronet, that the two offices of Treasurer and Paymaster were not necessary, was quite sufficient for hint. Mr. BROKER said, that although the Noble Lord con e4led by expressing his determination to vote for the mo tion of the Hon. Baronet, there was not a single word in his Speech which was not in contradiction to the principles and statements of the Hon. Baronet. The Hon. Baronet set out with stating that the office of Treasurer of the was not a sinecure, and that it ought not to be a ' s "ed, but argued that it should be annexed to some other office. The Noble Lord, who supported the Hon. Baronet's motion, began by asserting that the office of • Treasurer of the Nary was a sinecure, an:l that it ought' to be abolished, and denied that it should be united to any other office. So that after having contradicted the three propositions on which the Hon. Baronet had founded his motion, the Noble Lord nevertheless declared that he per fectly agreed with the Hon. Baronet. But what was rather curious was, that the Hon. Baronet and the Noble Lord were completely at variance with one another in their opinions, and yet ueither of them made any approach •to the truth and justice of the case. It was a little hard upon him (Mr. Croker) that lie must first argue against one assertion by the Hon. Baronet, and then by and bye argue against a contradictory assertion by the Noble Lord. The Hon. Baronet began by admitting that the office of Treasurer of the Navy ought to be maintained in its dig nity, but that it ought to be annexed to some other office, and then the Noble Lord contended that the Paymaster did all the duty, and that the office of the Treasurer ought to be reduced. During the time, however, that the Noble Lord's father so ably and so advantageously to the Public held the situation of First Lord of the Admiralty, lie , appoint e d a Ri ght Hon. Gentleman to the office of Treasurer of the Navy, as a separate and substantive office, with a salary of 4,000/. a year; and he did right in doing so. The system of amalgamating offices was, in his (Mr. Croker s) opinion, a great abuse. No one could deny that the duties of the Treasurer of the Navy were great and important. As to the supposition that Mr. Tierney bad said, that an hour a day was eufficient for the performance of those duties, h e had never said any such thing. It had been attributed to him, but he had always laughed at it. He could bring in evidence all the Ex-Treasurers of the Navy living, to prove that the duties of the office were extensive and important. When the Hon. Baronet read the extract from Mr. Tierney's speech, stating that in his time the duties of the office were not great, he ought not to have stopped there, but ought to have gone on with what Mr. Tierney further stated;—namely, that his at tendance was required every day ; and that he understood that, since his time, a considerable increase had taken place in the duties of the office. [Mr. Croker here read an ex tract from Mr. Tierney's speech to the above effect.] The Paymaster of the Navy had arduous 'and constant duties to perform. He was always chained to the desk. lie was the attorney to the Treasurer of the Navy. The Noble Lord had asked, " why not make the Deputy the Princi pal?" That was to say, in other words, " why not make a Treasurer of the Navy with a salary of 1,2001. a year ?" —(Hear, hear.)—That was the whole question, as stated by the Noble Lord; and in that the Noble Lord differed from the Hon. Baronet, who wished to maintain the dignity of the office. The reason why a Treasurer of the Navy ought not to be made with a salary of 1,200/. a year van this that it was absolutely necessary to have in that House a person of sufficient rank to manage the great and important concerns which would now devolve on the office. But if' it were thought desirable that there should be a Treasurer of the Navy with only 1,2001. a-year, let that be moved when the Ettimates came to be debated. The present was a Resolution condemnatory of the ap polntinent of a Treasurer of the Navy. He might be al lowed, h owever, to inquire why an officer, who was now a d eputy, should be subjected to greater duties and heavier r esponsibility on the same salary as that which he now en- Joyed. A t present, the deputy, with 1,2001. a-year, had endresponsibility; lie was the a tt orne y o f th e pr i nc ip a l, could be turned out of office at the pleasure of the Principal, Would the Paymaster accept the trust which thlt was proposed to vest in him? He did not know. Could e Payma s t er fi n d proper securities for the faithful dis charge of that trust? He could not tell. But of this he Was sure, the individual who possessed so extensive a con ultroaunl over lar ge sums of the public money ought to be a of ran k and dignity, whose station in that House would enable him advantageously to perform the functions of his office. Th e House had occasionally heard of great defal cations in that office ; they had h ea rd that cashiers i brok e , t h at clerks had run away, that public money ha d b een lost. It was a curious fact, however, that every defalcation which had taken place since 1782, had taken wplace duri ng t h e Treasureiships of Treasurers who were adin g ot h er offices at the time; and whose attention it s, therefo re , to a certain degree, called away from what see w ould term th e i r natural duties. In 1800, when the se of the Navy performed his proper functions of Only ae 5 ,Q 131 . a-year. When in 1801, the union of the of t Treasurer of the Navy with another great office teirezeil_tt.l,Blroeowl.new and important duties on the Payrnas aeyear (the salary of the Treasurer being m aster t e r 4e0001.) In 1819, the duties of the Pay- MI he got b e e zio i s n e e p re r a o:tec r in g, everybody felt that his salary ought to 1,20(711 2001. more. In 1326, the same gethe r a further increase of 200 L, making alto 'Peet t i , a Which was its present amount.—With re e C ommittee of Finance, the only recommenda. and t h at e subject was contained in the Report of 1817 ; sure r of rec ommended th e fixing of the salary of th e Tree oivie rthe Navy at the same standard' as the Paymaster ver nal ° 3,0001. a-year. He had stated that Go ent had acted in perfect accordance to the only Re- Ni l . e a aa , _ Finance Committee on this subject. They had a lit ssattpon it to the letter. They had not only done that, Hon, had afterwards deferred to the opinion of the they b ember for Aberdeen. He trusted, therefore, that than! have the rote that night of the Hon. Gentle- Cs 'hY the 0 0. Gentleman had said, that be saw no rea the. duties e Treasurer of the Navy should not perform all That po that office for a salary of 2,0001. a -y ear . H The H on. 14°n his Majesty's Government had accepted. t t i l o le n t ailld tiou wes ember had acco m p an i e d it by o b serv i ng , arapedient to inquire if any or what altera the Navy. " e made in the salary of the Treasurer of Sir J. GRARA inquired int o b M observed, that that subject bad be e n Y the Mr. CR 0 Government. Notlaid' last Finance Committee. port of the last T'iing respecting that it had been inquired into by ever, in the he w • Finance ' it appeared in the Re- Committee. They were told, Waq a body cpamphlet of an H n at, that there of evidence taken o bs . fore that Committee, semewhere in the archives of the House, from which any Wit fbe ight pi c k e d L. it tsucy might out at pl easure , g i v i ng w h at tongue opinio nC of the irdsulee omgaest, and declarinthe Report g that it was that as the Office of TreseuirerPers a t kii Committ ee, be e r supp o quoted se t 2 nothin g a p peare d respect i ng t h e of the Navy. 'llse Hon. Baronet had Gallant Friend b e t • Ilia argument, the evidence of his his Gallant Fririd'in'- iia,l been opneeeenefeitlhreasipp,intNevertheless, time evidence of and was was-ilant'rongly in favour of the office, ingfouizlations of the course which lition of the Of fi ce or syinaster---- With reg ird to the abe- Sir GEORGE skla RENDER (as we understood) spoke to Order. The Resolution before the House related to the Treasurer, not to the Paymaster of the Navy. Mr. CROKER observed that he had never heaid so ad 'mirable a specimen of " Order" as his Hon. Friend had just exhibited, How could it come into his Hon. Friend's I head, that, after what had been said in his speech by the Hon. Baronet, that he (Mr. Croker) was to be precluded !from adverting to the Paymaster of the Navy, because that 'officer was not mentioned in the resolution t The only w4y in which he could understand his Hon. Friend's con duct was, that his feelings of the force of his (Mr. C.'s) argument got the better of his personal regard for himself. —(A laugh.)—He had shown that there was no recom menda'ion of any abolition of the office contained in any Report of the Finance Committee. He deplored the too necessary absence on this discussion of a Right Hon. Gen tleman, whose absence, however, was a proof of the int port trice of the duties attached to the office of Treasurer of the Navy. There was every reason to believe that the ill ness of that Right Hon. Gentleman proceeded from the anxiety of mind which those duties occasioned. They had prevented him from enjoying any relaxation during the last summer; his actual presence at the office having been required every day for many weeks. In 1327, a Right Hon. Friend of his who had given as much attention to his civil station in the Navy as he had formerly done to his brilliant services on the seas, went to Ministers, and told them that the office of Treasurer of the Navy had grown to such a magnitude and importance that it ought to he separated from every other. When it appeared to the Government that the office of Master of the Mint might be united with that of President of the 13..ard of Trade, instead of with the office of Treasurer of the Navy, the Government at once took the opportunity of following the advice which the Committee of Finance in 1317 hail given, and which the House had then adopted, and which had been subsequently confirmed by a Resolution proposed by the lion. Member for Aberdeen in 1819. He was afraid that he had detained the House too long already; but feeling convinced, as he did, that the present arrange ment cf ate offices was such as necessity required, and fur ther, that it had been aloi.t.cl at the recommendation of the House, he had been unable to let the subject pass by without offering a few observations upon it. Lord HOWICK had been misunderstood. He had not proposed to abolish the office of Treasurer of the Navy, but only to make that saving immediate which the Right Hon. Gentleman admitted might be prospective, anti to appoint at once an efficient officer, with a salary of 2,0001. a year, without quartering upon the public another and a non-efficient officer, at an additional salary of 1,2001. a year. - Mr. CROKER must certainly have totally misunder stood the Noble Lord. He was glad to hear this expla nation of. the Noble Lord's meaning, and nothing would be mere agreeable to bins thin to put the question on the footing on which the Noble Lord had just put it. Mr. KEITH DOUGLAS opposed the motion. Mr. HUSKISSON felt called upon to make a few ob servations on the subject, the more especially as he was the only Member of the House now present, who had held far any considerable time the office of Treasurer of the Navy, jointly with that of President of the Board of Trade. He owned that he should have been glad to have been spared this discussion, for he did not feel much taste for any question in which the discussion of a public matter was mixed up with considerations of a private nature. The present was a discussion of that mixed nature ; hut if it hail been purely a question of a personal kind, he should have been the first to do justice to the ability, zeal, and in dustry of the present Treasurer of the Navy ; he should have been anxious to acknowledge that that Right Hon. Gentleman was not only competent to perform the duties of the office, but that he was also fully competent to the performance of duties of a much higher kind. But the House could not look at this question with reference to individual claims or individual znerits—it was a public question, and only as a public question would he treat it. His Majesty's Ministers were placed under the necessity of deciding on it as a public question, and almost without consideration on their part must it be decided. The Mem bers of that Hou,e were placed in this alternative : if the House wished to protect themselves in public opinion—if they did not wish that the resolution they had adopted, and that Government themselves bad recommended for their adoption, should be considered as nothing but a mere delu sion, they had no means of guarding themselves against such a delusion other than that of adopting the resolution now proposed. Why did he state this to be his view of the case? First, because jhe resolution d e cl ara t ory o f t h e necessity of retrenchment - bad immediately preceded the appointment to thin office ; secondly, because, in contradiction to what the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for Edinburgh, had stated, he would say, that Parliament, in 1826, did re cognise and lay down the principle that this office ought to be annexed to that of the Board of Trade. The ques tion then was, whether a substantive office should or not be annexed to this office; and for the information of the House he would read the conclusion of the proceedings on that occasion. " The House divided on the question pro posed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether a sub stantive and independent salary should go with the office of President of the Board distinct from that of Treasurer of the Navy, and on the division the ayes were eighty seven, the noes were seventy-six, leaving a majority of only eleven." Upon that majority having been announced, Mr. Canning, then the organ of the Government in that House, expressed himself to the following effect:—" He regretted that the smallness of the majority would prevent him from persevering in the course which, as a matter of principle, he had conscientiously supported ; but which, as a matter of expediency, he now felt himself bound, under all the circumstances of the case, to abandon. The ex pression of opinion had undoubtedly, been very strong ; and his Majesty's Government would not further press the measure. As it seemed to be the wish of the House, they would consent to the union of the ancient office of Trea surer of the Navy with that of President of the Board of Trade." He was of opinion that that declaration, followed immediately on the part of the Government with a performance of its promise, did announce on their part a Resolution to abide by the rule which the opinion of the House had then laid down. It was not ou the judgment of individuals, but on that of the House, that the union of these two offices had taken place. Since they had been adminis tered together, no evil effects appeared to have arisen from their union ; and on that point the silence of Ministers confirmed the judgment of the House. The Gallant Admiral, who, in 1827, was the official adviser of the Government on matters relating to the navy, and indeed said that the office of Treasurer of the Navy was a special and substan tive office ; but there had been three appointments since that time, and the Gallant Admiral's opinions had not been acted on. The Government must have felt that 'he sense of Parliament, thus expressed, was imperative upon them with respect to these offices ; but he would go further, and assert without the fear of contradiction that but fur that Resolution the two offices would have been continued in the same state as that in which they before existed. When he heard, for the first time, that the offices were not to be separated, be said he considered that Reso lution as preparatory for the downfall of the Treasurer of the Navy. But it was supposed that circumstances had arisen since 1826, which induced the Government to over ride the then declared judgment of Parliament, and to de part from the rule which Parliament had then laid down. He had certainly heard the statement of the Hon. Baronet, the Lord of the Admiralty, that new and important duties had been annexed to the office of Treasurer of the Navy, by that Act of the last Session which regu lated the affairs of Greenwich Hospital. He had care fully looked through that Act, and he did not find any thing added to the specific duties of the Treasurer of the Navy, except one ;—he meant at least that nothing had been added which could not be performed by any other' Member of the Commissioners of Greenwich Hospital, except in one instance. One of the clauses of that Act statad that the payment of no sums of money, standing in the names of the said Commissioners, that had been paid, nor the receipt of any dividends or funds standing in their names, should be authorised, unless the First Commissioner of the Woods and Forests, or the Treasurer of the Navy, should be present at the signature of the order by which the said sum was paid or received. He would ask any Gent. who knew anything of business, whether, if there were five persous named as Commissioners, three of whom were specially appointed to perform certain duties as such, and the other two were Commissioners ex-ojficios, the parti cular duty he had mentioned could be considered as such an augmentation of duty as would justify the House in ac ceding to the proposition to separate the two offices, and to give them two distinct salaries ? It had been said, too, that a part of the'duty of the Treasurer of the Navy was to perform part of the duties of the Paymaster of the Navy. He would assert from his knowledge of the office, and he challenged any one to contradict him, that it was net pos sible for the Treasurer of the Navy to do the duties of Pay master of the Navy. The latter office was one of the most laborious kind, one that required the most continued and assiduous attention to business of any in which the officer was entrusted with the mana g ement of part of the public funds. The Paymaster of the Navy could not be absent a single day from his office except the Treasurer of the Navy eras there. All the bills to be paid must pass through his hands, and it was not at intervals, but day by day, that he was obliged to attendfto the duties of his department. The Pay tpaster of the Navy must instruct each Treasurer of the Navy in the duties be would be called on to perform ; and when the (louse reflected that within the last three years there had lieen four appointments of Treasurer of the Navy, he thought he could ask them, with confidence, w•l.ether it was not a strong case upon the crrstion of the security of publi c p ro _ perty that among so many and such frequently occurring i changes of the Treasurers, there should still he one efficient lofficer conversant with his duties, and able to instruct others in theirs, who should not be changed every t a x I months. His Right Hon. Friend had said that it Wits a I remarkable fact, that during a long period the several de -1 falcations that had taken pl.ce had all occurred when the Treasurer of the Navy had Other duties to perform. If his Right lion. Friend had said that all the discussions upon this subject took place at the time of the full Moon, he would have spoken just as much to the purpose. If there was any merit in that argument, no doubt it could be ap plied with equal force to other officers of responsibility. Within a short time a fraud upon the Mint had been dis covered ; but yet unfortunately for his Right lion. Friend's argument, the office of Master of the Mint was not then united to that of the President of the Board of Trade. Yet if the argument were good for anyth:ng, it must be as good in one case as another—or at least one must be allowed as a set off to the other. He would ask any gentleman whether, if, as a private man, he was engaged in concerns in which millions passed through his hands, lie should think his business likely to be better conducted, or his concerns better attended to, if he changed his cashier every six months ? They might abolish the name and designation of Paymaster of the Navy, but re would predict that the Treasurer of the Navy never would do the duty of its Paymaster. The latter was a deputy that performed those duties which the principal would never perform in person. Let them call .the officer by what name they pleased, but they would be deceiving themselves if they thought they could get rid of the office itself. Ira that way, at least, he was convinced they could not save 2,200/. a-year. They might save the 1,0001. a-year by the proposed reduction of the salary, but not by the abolition of the 'office. lie knew he might be told that the office was one which ex ' isted merely during the pleasure of the Treasurer of the Navy. It was so, but he would ask whether there would not be greater difficulties attending the frequent change of the Paymaster than of the Treasurer of the Navy, since the business was performed by the former ? If they were to make a new arrangement of the offices, the Treasurer of the Navy must be as it was said the Paymaster of the Navy had been, chained to his desk, and compelled to perform all those duties which, were now dis charged by the Paymaster of the Navy. His ii;ght Hon. Friend had adverted to the authority of Mr. Tierney, who, he stated, had said that at one time the duties had been discharged by an attendance of one hour a day, but that they had been much increased since his time. He would read the summing up of the speech of that Right Hon. Gent., who said that be thought the duties of the two offices (Pre sident of the Board of Trade and Treasurer of the Navy) could be efficiently performed by the Right Hon. Gent. who then held them. So that if he said the duties had been increased, he still was of opinion that a person so in competent as himself (Mr. Huskisson) was still competent enough to perform the duties of both; and so thought and so decided the House, and the Government felt themselves bound by the decision. So much for the authority of Mr. Tierney. If his own opinion was to be quoted upon the present occasion, he (Mr. Huskisson) was neither the pro moter nor the suggester of the arrangement with respect to the Board of Trade—it was an arrangement that came from gentlemen on the other side of the House—from gen tletnen not connected with the Governtstent. He would, however, state that he should have been glad to be relieved from the office of Treasurer of the Navy, from his dislike to the pecuniary responsibility attached to it ; but when in office in the Board of Trade, whatever might have been his faults, whatever the character of the measures he re commended, whether good or evil, he trusted he might claim this merit at least, that his was not a department of idleness.—(Hear, hear. )—At the same time that he held that office, he was in the situation of one of the confiden tial servants of his Majesty—he was not only engaged at the office of Treasurer of the Navy, and as a member of tile Board of Trade, but as President of that Board he haul important duties to perform. He had to manage affairs with foreign states of a commercial kind, affecting their maritime rights, relating to the slave trade, and to the intercouse between the United States and the West India Islands. He hoped, too, he might claim the merit of having been ready on every occasion to take his full share in the performance of those general and desultory duties which did not belong specifically to his depart- went, but which must be performed by some Member of the Government.—(Hear, hear.)—He might aleo,say, without presumption, that, in the general business of that House, both as a Member of Parliament and as a Meal ,' ber of the Government, he had always taken his share, and he had very frequently been employed upon the va rious Committees which had sat during the 31 years in which he had had a seat in Parliament. He did not state these things with any vain or improper feeling; but he had once possessed the favourable opinion of that House, which he trusted he had done nothing to forfeit ; and he would take that opportunity of saying that he had always deeply felt that the manner in which the discussion he had referred to had been conducted with regard to himself was one of the greatest rewards he could have had, and one of the highest gratifications he had received during the course of his whole public life.—(Hear, hear.) fie now thought that if at that time, when the same proposition as that now submitted to the House was under discussion, the Government had found it necessary to defer to Par liament, they were under the same necessity now. H e would ask the House of Commons whether they would not now assert their former decision and vindicate their former judgment, and whether they would not compel the Go vernment to carry into effect the resolution they them selves had proposed in making this office one that should be annexed to some other efficient department ? It was impossible to deny that the comparatively minor duties of the Vice-President of the Board of Trade might be an nexed to those of the Treasurer of the Navy. That was the whole queStion before the House. The office of Pre sident of the Board was now annexed to that of Master of the Mint, and it was for the House to say whether the same course might not be adopted with regard to the Treasurership of the Navy and the office of Vice-. President of the Board of Trade. They had been told of days in which these were substantive and dis tinct offices ; but for the last 23 years (which were of more value in such a calculation than all the an tecedent periods) the present appointment was the first in which the office of Treasurer of the Navy was severed from another and more efficient office. In 1807, Mr. Rose was appointed Treasurer of the Navy, and at the same time lie held the office of President of the Board of Trade. Lord Goderich was appointed Vice-President of the Board of Trade whilst be was a Junior Lord of the Treasury. Afterwards be held the office of _Vice-Presi. dent conjointly with the Paymaster of the Forces, and after that, jointly with the office of Treasurer of the Navy, and so the two offices had gone on ever since. No ap pointment to the latter office had taken place which was not connected with other duties. If any credit were to lie given to the persons who had held this employment, he would say to every gentleman that was to give a vote this evening, " Dismiss from your minds any apprehension that if the offices were to be filled by the same person, any de triment could accrue to the public service." Some little embarrassment might be occasioned to the heads of the Government who filled up these offices, but this woul I not be of a very serious nature. Such an embarrassment would remind him of the often quoted words of an old song, . 6 How happy could I be with eithcr. Were t'other dear charmer away." (A laugh.)—This would he the subet ince of all the diffi culties which would attend the success of the Hon. Ba ronet's motion this evening. He was surprised, that when Ministers had expressed a wish to abridge the enor mous amount of the public expences, they had not asked themselves how they could reconcile this a pp o i n t men t to the decision of Parliament upon this subject in 1826, or to the Resolution that they had themselves passed in the present Parliament. Was there no sage Nestor amongst them to whisper in their ear that this appointment was altogether inexpedient? Lord Bathurst, from 1807 to 1812, was Master of the Mint and President of the Board of Trade, whilst Mr George Rose was Treasurer of the Navy and Vice-President of the 'Board of Trade; and therefore there had been precisely the same state of things in this period, which was one of great importance and of much greater business than at present. The Trea surer of the Navy was then fifty times what it was now. There was now but one more observation which he would wish to make, and with that lie would not trouble the arouse long. He was glad of the reductions which Mi nisters had made in several branches of the public service, and he hoped they would continue those reductions when ever they could be undertaken without palpable injury to the public service. But when the Paymaster -General of the Forces asserted that more numerous and greater reduc tions had been made by the Duke of Wellington than by all his predecessors, he (Mr. Huskisson) could not hesitate to say that the observation had no foundation whatever in truth. The reductions and reforms made by Mr. Pitt, the offices lie had abolished between 1783 and 1786, were fifty-fold what bad been abolished by the Duke of Welling toe,—(Hear, hear.)—Mr. Pitt's reductions were of offices of very great emolument and of influence, both within and out of that House, and Mr. Pitt had reduced them with- out any boast, for he had thought it his duty to do so. Further reductions had been made even in consequence of the motions of the Hon, Member for DJrsetshire (Mr. Banks) ; re.ln which greatly exceeded those made by the present First ord of the Treasury. Upon a recent occasion Um). Heathers were talking of reductions in the De Al Weight ; but the House had now the means of sey ing three theusand a-year, in conformity with their own recent resolutions, as well as the resolutions of 1826, and he must despair of any improvement if this measure were not carried. In consequence of such despair, he would not propose measures which he saw it would be perfectly usekss to suggest.—(Herr, hear. )—Let the country judge of what. had been assigned that night for the continuance of this office.—(Cheers.)—Let the country, he said, judge' between such pretences and the reasons upon which he thought, that whether upon the score of precedent, upon the score of authority, and upon that of principle, the office ought to have been annexed to that of Vice-President of the Board of Trade.—(Hear, hear.) Sir GEORGE COCKBURN said, that attaching the ,office of President of the Navy with that of the Boat d of Trade hail always in his opinion ken improper, and he was now confirmed in that opinion by all that had fallen from his Right Hon. Friend who had just sat down. His Right Hon. Friend's talents were universally acknow ledged, and it was equally well know❑ that he was accus tomed to business ; and, therefore, it might be reasonably supposed that he was likely to have looked into details, and to have made himself well acquainted with the office of which he was speaking ; hut so far from this, the Right Hon. Gent. had clearly shown that he knew nothing whatever of the subject upon which he had been speaking. (A laugh.)—Hon. Members might laugh, if they pleased ; but he (Sir G. Cockburn) would prove that his Right Hun. Friend was totally unacquainted .with the details anti the duties of the office upon which he had been making an attempt to enlighten the House. His Right lion. Friend was mistaken, when he said he was the only per son then in that House who had ever filled the office of Treasurer of the Navy; and he would now show the House, to their utter surprise, that his Right Hon. Friend knew nothing of the subject. First his Right Hon. Friend hail told the House that the Paymaster of the Navy was obliged to attend constantly at his office, because he had the cheques to sign for the many millions that passed through his hands. Would the House believe it possible, that the Paymaster of the Navy never had been allowed to draw one single cheque.—(Tumultuous cheers from the Treasury Benches.)—The Paymaster could not draw one single shilling out of the Bank of England in virtue of his office. Mr. HUSKISSON here interrupted the Gallant Offi cer. He stated that the Galant Officer was either totally mistaken; or he was condescending to take advantage of a play upon a word. The duty of the Paymaster was to sign cheques, which in the language of the office were called " Writes Off." These Writes Off were orders to transfer out of the money standing in the Bank of Eng land in the name of the Treasurer of the Navy, large sums to the different sub-cashiers.—(Hear, hear.) Sir G. COCKBURN—The 'Paymaster never drew a single shilling—he found no security—he was no public accountant. He had no command of the public money, excapt the power of makieg these Writes Off to pay, per haps, 20,0001. to his cashier, and 20,0001. to another.— (Hear, hear.)—Gentlemen might say " Hear, hear ;" but he would maintain that he had made a complete answer to his Right Hon. Friend.—(A groan.)—Gentlemen might groan if they pleased, but it was true.—(A laugh.)—The ditties of a Paymaster of the Navy might be done with a very small degree of labour. He might write off in one evening the several balances, and even that duty was only a very late arrangement. He examined balances and made returns to the Navy Office ; this was all that the Paymaster of the Navy did, and this was done with much case. The present Right Hon. Gentleman appointed Treasurer of the Navy might, without the slightest diffi culty, perform this duty; but they could not turn off the Gallant Officer who now filled the office of Paymaster- General to the Navy until an opportunity occurred of other wise providing feu• him. The debate of 1826 had turned not upon these points, but upon a question of economy ; and he verily believed the 1-louse would have agreed to a separation of the Presidency of the Board of Trade from the Treasurership of the Navy, had the motion then under discussion been one of money. The late Greenwich Hospital Bill and the Oat-pension Bill put great and im portant duties on the Treasurer of the Navy, and as long as the Treasurer was attached to any other office, his services never could be commanded in the Navy Office. He would maintain, that by the present arrangement, a sum of 2,200/. would be saved to the public, whilst the country would obtain an efficient person to fill the office. Mr. HUSKISSON hoped that he might be allowed to offer himself in explanation to the House, after the un founded imputations which the Gallant Officer had im puted to him. He might at least be allowed to show that he really did know the A B Cof the office he had filled.— He had been charged with talking of cheques, when, in point of fact, the Paymaster had not power to draw cheques. The balance in the Bank of England stood in the names of the Treasurer and Paymaster of the Navy.— The Paymaster, under the power of attorney from the Treasurer, was authorised to draw out all that balance, and which, in fact, he did. These drafts were not in the common form of:a banker's cheque, but they were drawn in the following words—" Front the balance standing in the name of the Treasurer of his Majesty's Navy, write off so many thousand pounds to the Cashier of the Al lotments, to the Cashier of the Pay Branch, or to the Ca shier of the Victualling Branch," and so on. This " Write off" was as much an imperative command to pay the money as if it were a common banker's cheque.— (Cheers.)—But it had been said that the Paymaster might go away from his office for a week. Sir GEORGE COCKBURN—I never said any such a thing. Mr: HUSKISSON—WeII, the Gallant Officer, at least, said for two or three days.—(A laugh.)—Documents came every day for the Paymaster to examine and sign. To-day there might be an account of 100,0001. Navy Bills due, and 70,000/. to-morrow. Suppose the Paymaster to write off the 170,000/. at once, and to go out of town.— Now, in the present course of business, and at the present value of money, these bills, or Many of them, were not presented for several days ; and the Paymaster ought not, therefore, to write off these large sums all at once, but to do so as the sums became due. The Gallant Admiral had been pleased to admit that the Paymaster's duty compelled him to halance al the hooks of the different heads of service ; and he would appeal to the House whether this admission did not amount to what he had stated, that the Gentleman who tilled the office of Treasurer of the Navy must be chained to his dedr.—(Hear, hear.) . . , - Mr. HUME sail, the question was, bad Ministers ia this appointment acted with due attention to the economy which they acknowledged to be essential, and which they had pledged themselves and made the King pledge h;rn self to observe ? The country had now to pay a charge of 2,9201. to the Paymaster of Marinas, 23,033/. for the Pay-office of the Navy ; and Ministers acknowledged that when they could get rid of or provide for the present Paymaster of the Navy, they would make the Treasurer of the Navy do the duty of his office. What was this but an admission of a violation of their pledges of economy? The Secretary cf the Treasury said, that in 1800, the salary of the Paymaster of the Navy was only 5001. per annum.--2001. snore were soon added, and then 2001 more, until at last the salary was made to amount to 1,200/, per atuNtn. If the Paymaster well performed his duties, they were totally incompatible with his services as a Mem ber of Parliament. The Paymaster, for instance, might be chosen a Member of the Wexford Committee, which might sit for two months, and then what became of the duties of the Paymaster ?---(From the Treasury Bench :—He may swear off.)--Mr. Hume continued. This would be improver—a neglect of duty; and it only proved what he had stated, that the duties were so incompatible, that when they clashed the Member was obliged to swear off from one of them. The only way was, to get rid of that solid band of pensioners out of Parliament ; for in the pre sent Session the Government majorities had been corn- posed 'of persons in the pay of Ministers in offices removable at will.—(Cheers.)—The House had had examples of such removals ; and every man knew that the Duke of Wel lington was of so decided a temper, that he always got rid of those who, in that House, disputed any of his questions. The Paymaster of the land forces had spoken of his con scientious and independent votes ; and if his votes out of office had not been the reverse of his votes in office, he would not say much for them. The Secretary of the Admiralty had totally misquoted and misapplied what he had said upon the Navy Department in 1822. He had maintained, and he still maintained, that the whole duties of offices might be p er f or m e d f o r 8,0001. a year, if thethe Nwy system ' were properly arranged. It was true that the Paymaster of the Navy had not a shilling in his hands. Every department of the state was overloaded with double and treble cheques, as if a gentleman giving an order upon his hanker found it necessary to pass it also through the hands of two or three clerks. Ile hoped that Hon. Members would, by their votes this night, support the consistency of the House, and show their sense of the manner in which the present Government had violated its pledge of economy, and had shown an utter disregard of the expenditure of the public money. Mr. PEEL rose amidst loud cries of " Question." The Right Hon. Gent. said, that before the House disposed of this question it was not immaterial that their attention should be called to the real nature of it. It was not a motion to reduce an excessive estimate ; it was not a pro 'position to diminish a vote which many might think greater than the public service required : but it was a proposal that the Douse should visit with condemnation and with censure, those by whom the appointment had been made. was not a question of mere policy on which the House were now called up on t o leads, t;er considerations of equity and of jestice w ere i nvo l ve d i n it. He might say that the ihiuse ou thi s qu st i on was s i e i ng i n a judici al and nut in a politie a l cliaraittsr; awl, bewsver high p a rty f e el- Ing might be carried, sure he was that on such an occa sion, few Members would refuse, before they gave their verdict, to listen to the grounds on which the Government protest tigainst a verdict of condeematinn—to the groends on which the Government rested their defence.—(Hear.) They were bound to consider tite animus in which this appointment had been made, before they censured the Government ; and he begged leave to assert at the outset t'iat which he would beer out by evidence—namely, than if the House should adopt the proposition before them, it would not be the discharge of an imperative duty, but an aet of gross injustice.—(Cheers.)—ln 1828, when a schism--to which he could never allude without feelings of regret—took place between some Members of the Government, and rendered alterations necessary—a Right Hon. Friend of his (Mr. Vesey FitzseeraldYwas appointed to the offices of President of the Board of Trade and Treasurer of the Navy. At that time Lord Melville prat steel against tbe choice, but his Noble Friend at the head of the Admiralty had no other view then to provide for the efficiency of the naval service. His Right Hon. Friend behind him concurred in the view which his Noble Friend (Lord Melville) expressed upon this subject, and the question was taken into deliberate consideration. Adverting, however, to what had passed on the subject in that House, and considering it to be the expressed wish of the House that the offices of Treasurer of the Navy and President of the Board of Trade should be united—the individual hulling them having a salary of 5,0001. a year—his Noble Friend Lord Melville was told that his objections must he overruled, and the appoint ment be made in obedience to the views of the House. Sc mstters continued until the health of his Right Hon. Friend Mr. Vesey Fitzgerald broke down under the labour of the united offices.—(Hear, hear.)—When the Govern ment saw that his Right Hon. Friend, whose acuteness in business, and whose official experience every body must have observed, had sunk beneath the burdensome duties of these two offices, they did feel that it was high time to depart from the intention of Parliament, if that departure could he effected consisterely with the preservation of those views of economy which he must be allowed to say were ever present to the minds of his Majesty's Ministers. If the Government had not consulted both the efficiency of the public service and the saving of public expence, if they had wished only to make out a specious case for the Parliament, instead of throwing themselves upon the jus tice and upon the equity of that House—what course would they have adopted? Why, certainly, the easy, obvious course of retaining the Master of the Mint, and continuing the offices of President of the Board of Trade and Treasurer of the Navy as they found them, placing hie Right Hun. Friend (Mr. Herries) in those offices like his predecessors. If this course had been followed, he would venture to say that not one word would have been said about it; but when they had adopted another and better course, by which they had saved the country 2,2001. a year—(Hear)—bis Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Huskis son), who called so loudly for retrenchment and economy, complained of it.—(Hear, hear.)—Did his Right Hon. Friend call this encouragement to Ministers to save where they saw the possibility of saving? His Right Hon. Friend seemed to dissent ; but begging his Right Hon. Friend's pardon, he (Mr. Iluskisson) did assuredly say that Parliament had declared that these offices should be united, and that therefore they ought not to hove been se porated. No doubt they ought ; but not when it was found that one of the most diligent, awl talented, and acute public ,servants sunk under the burden of the two offices, and when the Government saw that they could save the country 2,200/. a year by disuniting the offices.—(Hear, hear.) -But above all, he would ask whether it was equitable or just to censure and condemn Ministers for effecting such a saving when they had not hesitated to give up patronage in order that they might be able to effect it ?—(Cheers. ) The opinion of the Government was, that under all these circumstances they were justified in reviewing these two offices. They haul been guided by a sense of duty in what they had done ; and whether that might have been done in some other or better day, still they did not slesei ve the censure of the House. Their motives ought not to be condemned ; and perhaps the House would pause before they condemned the result of those motives, when they ' found that among the accusers of the Government on this subject no two agreed as to what comae ought to have been adopted.—(Hear, hear.)—One of them bad said, " How could we expect that a Treasurer of the Navy could per form the duties of his office and attend also the Wexford committee ?" But, let him ask in reply, whether it WAS not still more unreasonable to expect that an individual, who was both Treasurer of the Navy and President of the Board of Trade, could perform the duties of those two offices and attend the Wexford Committee besides.— (Hear.) —He implored the House before they Caine to a vote on this subject, to listen to the opinions which had been expressed upon it by committers of their own. From 1781, to the present time, there bad been various inquiries by means of commissioners and committees, into this office. No one of those commissions or committees had ever recommended the abolition of the office.— Many had complained of the ditties of the office being performed by deputy, and recommended that it should be made a separate and substantive office ; that one individual might attend exclusively to the duties of it. In 1918, the Finance Committee reported that they thought the salary too large; they recommended that it should be reduced on future appointments, and placed, as to emoluments, on a level with the Paymaster of the Forc..e. The same Committee intimated that the salary mielat be reduced to 3,000/. a year. Now what had the Goverment done on the present occasion? Had they adopted the recommendation of this Committee? No, they had gone fir beyond it ; and, instead of reducing the salary to 3,0001. a-year, they had reduced it to 2,000/. a-year, and they had placed the office on the same footing with that of Paymaster of the Forces.—(Cheers.)—Now the House might think this salary too great,—they might reduce it,—but a sense of equity and justice must prevent the imposition of the censure now proposed.—(Hear.)— If not, these reports of Committees were not beacons to warn a Government from danger, but they were false lights that lured them to their ruin. —(cheers.)—Away, then, with Reports of Committees; let us have no more if such were to be the consequences of them.—(Chetrs.) —Reports of Committees, however, had hitherto i etet reckoned the highest authorities they had. Let bins now look to lesser authorities : and here, allow him to sly, that, though he haul had some reason to expect opposition from his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Huskisson), the count, which hie Right Hos. Friend had taken upon the present occasion had filled him with astonishment. His Right Hon. Friend had told them that the offices ought to he still united, and hail blamed the Government for attend ing to the opinions of Lord Bathurst, whom his Right Hon. 'Friend called the Nestor of the Cabinet ; and to the opinions of Mr. Rose, which opinions were given in 1807. But, with the leave of his Right Hon. Friend, he would refer to later authorities. His Right Hon. Friend had said that he was the only Member of th e House who had held the two offices of President of the Board of Trade and Treasurer of the Navy ; and that the House, he was sure, had too much confidence in him to suppose that lie would have held two offices which were inminpatible with each other. Now this it was which astonished him (Mr. Peel); for it happened to be upon a dilate on this very subject that his Right Hon. Friend haul appeared in the character of Captain Macheath, saying-- __ _ 1 " How happy could I be with either " Were t'other dear charmer away !" . • —(Hear and laughter.)—Ou the 7th of April, I Sa, Mr. Huskisson said—[Here the Right Hon. Gentleman read the following extracts : • " He also was reliev from the necessity of saying any thing relative to what some gentlemen called an useless office,—the Treasurership of the Navy. After what had been stated by his Right Hon. Frießd near him, and by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, it was scarcely necessary to add that the business of that department hail very considerably increased, as well as the importance of the duties Connected with it, since the transfer to it of the management of seamen's wills. It was quite erroneous to suppose that the business of that offiee was a mere matter of paying money. So far from that, the Treasurer of the Navy was called on to exercise his discretion in the instance of every de mand made on him for money. He was obliged. to sift the grounds of each claim, and to decide on the merits of the applicant.— With so many branches of public duty to be'performed, the Rank could not be expected to execute them, or to exercise any disCre, tion on the different cases submitted to the consideration of who, ever might be placed in the superintendence of that department. Whether from nis not having that capacity of mind which ilia discharge of such duties undoubtedly required, or from what- ' ever othercause, he confessed he did feel considerable hardship arising out of the union of the two offices of President of the Board of Trade and Treasurer of the Navy. He felt not only the difficulty attendant upon a due discharge of the duties of both, but the anxiety wh:ch proceeded from the great pecuniary responsibility which attached to one of those offices; the weight of which was, in no considerable d e g ree, a ugmented by, the duties wising from the frequent c om plaints from she Navy_ office, the Victualling-office, and other departments of the publ ic service connected with it. He declare d that, united as those offices were in him, he could not satisfy his mind that the duties of the Treasurership of the Navy were, so f ar as lie was what con_ crrn fsad fallen from th e Right lion. Gentleman, with refercence to whether or not he had t i me enotich to discharge the duties of both employments, he certainly Judd not reply that he had not time enough ; but h e cou l d most truly declare ed answerdul y t a o n c 1 adequately performed." • ♦ • • th withat whatevert: ,hich h thio c u a ; i s l e t e it ve n r -i: codwuitnygo,performed. Beyond ought to notb the duties of both effices with that satisfaction to his own feelings Beyond question, the country was fully ent:tled to his best set vices, and to all his services ; but, so long as he remained unable to nivest himself of the feelings to which he had adverted, he was convinced that it was any thing rather than a public service to continue in possession of both offices without being able ade quately to discharge the duties attached to them." • • a " The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite had told the Committee, that when he held that office he contrived to do other duties of a public nature. Doubtless, a man ofhis powers and diligence was capable of holding such an employment with advantage to the public, and also to discharge other duties of importance ; but this could not be accepted as a proof that the burdensome duties at the Board of Trade - were compatible with those at th 4avy office The further consideration of this question he would now leave in the hands of the House, so far as he was personally con cz,rned."—Crhese passages were received with cries of" Hear," and laughter.) Now it was from a sincere belief that this was a correct account of the two offices, and the confirmation of this be lief by what had happened to his Right Hon. Friend, Mt.. V. Fitzgerald, that the Government had thought it better to unite the offs 'es of Matter of the Mint with that of Pre sident of the Board of Trade, and make the Treasurer of the Navy a separate office. They thought further that as his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Ilerries) near him was le reed in the duties of Master of the Mint, such a measure wound not be liable to the objection of putting the labour of two new offices upon one individual.--(Hear, hear.)—But his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Huskisson) had proceeded upon the mistaken supposition that what the Government had done on this subject was the same which it was proposed to do in 1826, when the House thought that the two officea should be continued in one person. What seas proposed in 1826 nil, to add 3,000/. a-year to the public saps uses ; what the Government had done now was to save the public 2,200/. a-year—(hear)—and though still it might be ar gued that the House had expressed the opinion that the two offices should not he separated, yet it must not be for gotten that the opinion was founded on eonsideratiens of economy, and only on considerations of economy.—( I Tear, hear.)—These considerations, far from bein'i lost sight of in the present arrangement, bed been strictly observed, and he could not bring himself to believe that the House would censure Ministers for departing from . the views of the House, when those views were founded only on motives of economy, and when, by so departing from those views of the House, the Government had saved the country 2,200/. a-year. As to the details connected with this office of Treasurer of the Navy, he respectfully but decidedly refused to enter into them. The House was to judge of the mo tives of the Government, and whstever might be the poli tical feelings and political resentments of Hon. Members, sure he was that both must yield to the dictates of equity and justice. What had been the general conduct of this Go vernment, of the Duke of Wellington's Government, upon o th th e detonation like the present ? Why, th e y haul h ea rd from eSCUGbiOeVeetrilorftf eretre nchmentbaenydi visited , that the great advocate of economy, the Hon. M em b er f or c te o d n o w in i y th e i t ;) f of e o a n l - i Montruse (Mr. Hume), that this Government ICA shown a greater desire to economise than any Government he had ever seen. He (Mr. Hume) had thought, indeed, that the present Government did not go far enough, but such was the opinion which he had expressed of this Govern ment in reference to preceding Government.. With such a character from a political opponent, and from such a political opponent, how could any one support the justice to the Han. Member for Montrose, because p os t er ity present proposition? He believed that posterity w ou ld d o would judge of that Hun. Member's motives; and, how ever persevering and annoying his opposition might be, no one would doubt them. The Hon. Bart. opposite (the Mem ber fur Westminster) had told them that it was expedient to reduce the influence of Government in that House. Upon this point the Hon. Baronet had no doubt a right to argue upon his own views of what the amount of that influence ought to be, but when the Hon. Baronet talked of other and better times in which that influence was less, it was material to see how the fact stood. The House hid lately called for information on this subject. They had called for is return of the number of Members of Parliament who held offices, places, or pensions, in the first Sessions of the reign of George the First, George the Second, mid George the Fourth. Now he would take the Hon. Baronet to have stated fairly that there were fifty or sixty Members of that House at present holding offices under the Cz , :trn, ae d from which they were removable at will ; but let the House hear how it was situated in this respect in those " happier days" of less influence, to which he lend In the first Session of the reign of George I. the number of Members in the House holding offices at the pleasure of the Crown was 271. In the first Session of the reign of George 11., there were 257 Members holding such officee. Now, it might probably be said, that there was at that. time some skilful division of offices, by which the business or emoluments of one might have been divided between three or four Members, but no such thing. Besidee pros viding for that number, the Government, it wouthl scum, had offices to spare, for he found that, in the persons of some Members several offices were united, and that, too, in a manner which required some dexterity in the party to show his competency to fill them. For instance, Ile proved, one gentleman held at the same time the offices of Vice- Treasurer of Ireland, Lord Warden of the Stannaries, Comp troller of the Household, and Governor of St. Mawes. He found another gentleman in that Parliament, Mr. Crag,ga, who united in his person the offices of Secretary of State, Secretary at War, Clerk of the Ordnance Deliveries, and a Lord of Trade. Another gentleman held at the same time the offices of a Secretary of State, a Lord of the Treasury, a Comptroller of the Household, and Ambassador to Spain.— (Hear, and a laugh.)—This too, be it recollected, was at a time when there were oqy 558 members, so that the number of placemen bore at that time a much larger pro m- portion to the other members of the House than th e y would have done at present, there being now 658 m e hers. The Ir:ttli Parliament was then a separate body, and it was fair to infer that there was a proportionate number of officers to create a considerable influence there also. In the comparison therefore of the influence of the Crown in the House at those periods and at the present day, it was quite clear that the balance was, beyond all question, greater in those happier times to which the Hon. Baronet had looked back as days of little Government in fluence in the House. But that was less to the question than the conduct of the Duke of Wellington's Government as to reductions in the present day. It was but justice to his Noble Friend te state, that no Minister lead ever up. plied himself more assiduously to tire work cf economy Etta reduction, wherever it could be fairly effected. His (Mr. Peel's) Hon. Friend, the Secretary to the Treasury, hal stated on a former evening what were the reductions which haul been made in the several public departmunti. The whole of the last summer had been employed by Ministers in this way. Into every department of the State in every office held by a person hearing the rank of a gentle. man, an inquiry was made to see how far reductions could be made, and they were made as far as was practicable. So that, in fact, it might be said that Government had mortgaged its patronage for several years to come, But he would ask whether his Noble Friend at the head of the Government had supplied this diminution of patronage by any lavish expenditure of public homnara Upon inquiry it would be found, that in no one mate had he conferred any civil honours since his accession to office. In the days of Mr. Pitt, perhaps, a different course might have been found necessary. Bit he was mistaken in saying "in no one instance ;' there were some few execrations—.one or two perhaps—but they were not cases in which any in fluence could be exercised over that House. His Nohlo Friend had, with those excentiuna, never felt it necessary to recommend the exercise of the prerogative of the Cruwa in that respect; not that he undervalued that patronage, but that he had not found it necessary for the purposes of Government as it was in former adnainistrations. The present administration looked for support to public opinion —(Cheers)—and they felt that relying open that, and steadily pursuing that coertue which, they considered toast likely to deserve it, the influence of such patronage might be dispensed with,— , (Cheera.)—Greatly indeed should he be disappointed if the vote of that evening should convince biro that they were mistaken in such reliance, and that they required such influenee. Tits House would nu doubt ; exercise its own discretion as to f i let motion before it, and if, after what they had alreedy done, it should think pro per to adopt the protensitrou of the Hon. Baronet, he would bow with eulomesion, but they would still have the satisfaction of thinking that they had not deserved the cesuenre.—(Hear, hear.)—But he roust observe that if they passed a censure on that Government which luei done most in the way of ecateame and retrenchment, they would hold out to teeie successors the fully of relying on public opinions, in lieu of that patronage which other ade ministrations had so profusely exercised.—(Cheers.) Sir GEQ. WARRENDER rose amidst cries of " Ques tion," which rendered his few remarks very inaudible in the gallery. Ha was understood to support the ,notion., Mr. LABOUCHERE said that he could not support a motion which implied a censure upon Ministers who, ho adm,ttFd, har d dome much in the way of reduction; at the same tune he admitted that a more economical coulee, might a be adopted. They were going on in extravagance whick ought to ho checked, atel he would show hie sense of this will et they came to discuss the Navy Estimates. Sir JAMES GRAHAM did not reply. Tic House then divided, when there appeared—. Fur on the ou r r e r s e ol tt t i t t t n to, 9 0 0 ,e I GalleryA gain Against \v i e t , foundlBB the u Majority, lse O d B i s . posing of die Mutiny Bill and Marine Mutiny Bill, which were read a third time and passed. On the motion of L or d Viscount aostrEnt, a Sleet Conunittee wa* appointed to inquire into the state of the roads between London and Edinburgh, and London and Portpet rick. The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and tai; Hou94 a(V)urn4•4l at 14 Quarter tq Two osciock. dment, incyin rtunity Lolation t to the o f th e