The Sun. — London, England, 1831-02-19 00:00:00

such a state of disci/ eral opposite (Sir ;e for the Colonial a Bill upon the s it was therefore Bill grounded upont and which would t• able his Majesty to o r Colonial Assernt iof the revenue. Ti :ted to surrender to e Le disputed revenue,b Assembly a mutters rno r and Judges, wl J u d d nua l vote f the ,po s ed that what p rid cra t e scab, as ' govern or's salaries ag made 5,200/. per af 001., and various otbr sole list wantedour already gby tb, Crown gave aka se re fur which it aed th e r ps opod t hat tb >ffices upon good bets§ Chief Justice, shout L ncil, or interfere vile designed tha t the Ce power of altering tbi ulated the tenure 0 u e colony had b a re a ;ed would in fbt ded by moving, that mat it was expedieattl PPropriation of dutiel tor the administratio o uf vii governm ent in o a degree of noise arid his remark s inaudildt Member was under 'alien from the Noble with what had he e _ . ° , fairs of Canada on the j 8 ) however , he begge° that denial referred f to hich he was a rnembe 3bserving that duriog great importance hod lion o f the Hos e, the e ssion a Bill which to Canada had bee° vent that put aetop re. It had bee bit de ere with a vieW t° reen the two branchel Ri g h t foil. Committee Committee quoted hi distinctly stated that .e a controul Oct the and great officers o Reared from t his ,sure was by no MOO° d f e ct might cor rese and produce the 4; mad& mention be iu t h e colonies: ~, o u t a ny job while P. the Colonial Der; o$ ong his most aioe bu arils the colonies, but arils s to the Assembly r ce over the o'7o 011 p olic y which be °b ail provinces cf,;:: "it as much as r im p u t e any thing, like in his admiaistfr. I th e House' lybetberi the grossest sy ste l ° This was al l be or la d oppose d tbe 'is opposite, us Noble Friend, he" nest Caeada.--a he propositi on of Jal/' Y mode of goveroini overn it at as 1111,1 e°r fA r le country it , niimis were perfectl t rY, with this c oon -• It becameto° t° e alienated the Cs,s: of powers bobtiled° rby it. We owe owed it to Or 001 as much hapPiflesi to bestow. Ift cos" a hope that the pria' th e settlement of th e 'plied to many other iterested--the clergY one feature of th e bled the Governor to in Legislature alight mad e no provision ne previous to ouch ) as a great defe c hit further ia further added, for the Jadoee o , the Fie received so ill ;u ch lon. Friends Bill of f o rtunate in conci' 00 1 that the expe 6 j anada would suceee ble Friend upon ce between this pla° Ade Lord's proe"i:, Lion. Gent lonsA :t. He also eXpressi: 4t to the liberal fee than to atternPt,C°:,i the measure aPit"ii", ;lire he was that t", to the Canadiang atisfaction and °° : l, not worth bto","1:4 a ought to be C 3, Br lishment. no Iv es would have if ey were willingorr ise three regular t he r in part, frost) • e entire Opense• ed former Act atietlot the Canadians) " of 1° to the pla t „ F .- .4, sr ins made al l A le ained was to ,de to Id regulatioo and the rePo r ' A IIY E 5, 13 .1 , ice House resoiv- ave the C hair, ea f° tatiOnS bad .e g ioe to use the l`l a tte d I)); course 1 1 ; 1 _ 1. . 0 eo c . 'els bad tail oo le ention, an d ftefor gi : respect to . r c o..' v ention,,, lb o e u j o , ten the P 10" , es before it dr been kept ot oog f that a 0 6 ! o say,. _ s ok, Le . opiniot' he vit sv iot rge, o' l n o vi o f wernnte nt ' ot y estiblisho coo, ( The late fit et 'e. as e esta e6' vernatel atb t he dow n fito t -ought r i o ts 4 0 After va 131,° to 0 0 Etst Y ea „ r o te 69 1 0 0 pon to •, this? he o ° s , titer.) W"' ocl' 2ce lf had lir b.) laug r att try gni c e w hoicfloat con te u: vie; too, le "" d ( Lord c eoa q f ,rofeesilo .) i ,„ it ; to b i s y b y ascn ilitarY A thi ya army ti kt they could afford relief to the country. The Noble Albano~ said that he could not grant a remission of tax die, unles s h e i mposed new taxis. H e (M r. H ume) 4 tX pect a mu c h l arger re li e f t h an h a d b een g i ven . F our ~, ireti and eighty thousand pounds was all the apparent lautio n of taxation this year ; and if the excise was i?,tuductive as was expected, he (Mr. Hume) did not Cs* that there would be one shilling less taxes raised AZ the people this year than the last. He contended 4 a l arger redu c ti o n, a re d ac ti o n I.f one million sterling ti t i t ea ste should b e ma d e b y a re d uct i on o f t h e military t ke bliB hment. Wh ere was t h e necess i ty o f so man y Pa in Canada? There were now more British troops fi ta , l aada than there were soldiers in the whole United t tifi "' The late Secretary for the Colonies, who was eiently acquainted with the circumstances of Canada, t o stated that we must rely upon the militia of Canada e u rcu eet it against the United States. Therefore one taken 1 sa nd men might be saved there, and taxes might be e n off to the amoun t o f 45,0001. for every one thousand 8r; 0 1. Great Britain should not be taxed 200,0001. or otot??1:))/. f or t h e lon i an Islands, of which she was only the 1 !,r. Bat a degree of infection seemed to belong to la the be nc h es , an d there was something terrific °llly: ide a of dispensing with soldi,rs. There was only of two objects for a large military establishment trf‘tither overawing the people. or inter.neddling in the ti te ns , °I other nations. The only cause to which he could itt:rufeute the . present large increase was, a . de , termination to is re with other nations, and by so doing the Ministers ti k e contrary to their pledge. He would prove that by itlidcuurse they had taken with Belgium and Hid ,shis Maj es t y ' s Mi n i s t er s a n d the Briti s h C a lis t i t i"ad violated their pledge. The protocol or pro nto,. n Of the fi ve grea t P owers had b e en rejected, anl nfb in g now rem a i ne d b u t th e l a st resource. On the 2 I N 'camber last, in the speech from the Throne, there p ort Passage whi c h cou ld on l y mean th a t we would sup tt th e ancient alliance formed for the settlement of the het Europ e ,— t h at i s , t h e H o l y Alli ance . There was ofiilaration th at i t was not i nten d e d t o i n t er f ere in t h e o i ti _aa of ot h er nations ; hut the next step was a propo -0 of the five great Powers of Europe, recommending otparrnistice between Belgium and Holland. Belgium ac re • this proposition, with the reservation, that the ttribilisitice„should not lead to any interference in their in dri.l„' affairs. Th e fi ve great P owers accepted this con etti;al of the Belgian Congress ; and on the 15'h of De tf five great Powers recognized the independence lieli 4 ,,, 1 atn- On the 6th of January the Belgian agent ltall P- ti ,`" to the five Powers a note, declaring that it ti se Belgian Congress alone which could settle the int er of the country, and that they would not allow of any fereuee. W as n ot ' deciding upon the boundaries of a Ise te l ats i nterference? Yet on the 20th of January a pro tejonaPPeared laying down the boundary line between tilei,7 4l and Holland, which was directly interfering. On tile," of rebrulry, the Belgian Congress protested against nrit,, rll)t °col of the five Powers, and declared that they would The,ebtnit to the five Powers using any such dictation. tor i P"ceedings, however, were not limited to limits. tolt ealnterston one of the great Powers—(A laugh)- 1 11 \ th e amount ' of the debt of Belgium and Holland. t hat ''sPuties replied, that they had no power to discuss e n tl questio n w i th the five Powers ; that the Belgium nlititatesa Were th e on l y p ar ti es com p e t en t, an d th e y d e - tit° give any information. What business had these ~dlrthe debts of Holland and Belgium ? He deel o . h, l arne) would ask wh e ther there had been any titin o -4 " to what portion of the debt belonged to Bel 4skrand what to Holland ? On the 7th of February the ° I/t e 'i e , t Powers declared they would not recognize as King tr i th e glum the Duke de Nemours or the Duke de Leuch -41, r ,_• What business had we to embroil ourselves Itite election of a King? If this was not interference, '11, 4 t le's , not what was interference. He would contend, ~- " a Whole system of this Government was anything tri d " sYstem of non-interference. In short, they were iotrodeatly bringing up that odious system which had been n,4l d u t eed by the Holy and which he hoped o 1: ue crippled and destroyed at last.—( Hear.)—The great p owers, it appeared, had refused to allow the 1.t.,4 4 11% to receive the Duke of Nemours or the Duke of klr t l; ten helrg as their King; and be should be glad if the 1 4 441 Lord would inform the House whom those Powers hitt a gree that th e B e l g i an s s ho u ld accept as their sove al i sa.„ . , in his opinion, however, the Noble Lord and his I str e g . " ° ta had b een overma t c h e d i n thi s nego ti a ti on ; f or 144 4it protoc o l was sent to B resson , he r e fused to sig n it, with „ w as thrown back upon the negotiating Powers thinkr'rfect contempt. Those Powers had done various 1 4) i tite e ' ,"' hi oh they bail not the least right to do. The 1 4t . ' e nee of all their proceedings would probably be, thitttabllostile force would enter Belgium; and he believed N obl U elgians w ere prepare d to rece i ve it. U n l ess th e h otv e Lord and his colleagues were ready to enforce their • ottlt marching troops into Belgium, they must rest a n d With th e contempt w hi c h wou ld b e cas t on 4tted.'" consequence of their protocol having been re- N ow' he would a-k whether the people of this wa uld bear the expense of such a large military .4 te? -14 Leilt, for th e purpose o f i n t er f ere nce with another go t ,,„„ tie tho ug h t t h at M i n i sters oug h t no l onger to b e Ztap e 7 leci t° Proceed in this way, and . that they should be I, y before the House copies of all the protocols b , lll l " a the British Government had been parties. He i i t ao il t ile i " .. of that House whether . the country was at l it 4 14 c " condition to enter the lists for the . purpose t `• r ing with Belgium, and preventing the 1. 4 4na front electing whom they pleased as their sove iltsn Proper interference with the affairs of other thl gnt di - 'aid never support the dignity of the Crown. tip t i n itY Would be best upheld by reducing the taxes ' it - „havi rl q : li ng content and happiness over the land, instead L. 6 that recourse to new exactions, and thereby increas ut t, wretchedness and misery which was at present t\easi,-° Prevalent. The Hon. Member concluded by ' th is iss i g „ . "`` That an bumble address be presented to his a g ue P j 'aYing that he will be pleased to direct that - to 'aid b e f ore t hi s H ouse cop i es o f a ll protocols ai *t abl el by the Commi ss i oners of the five great Powers °f 84 1,44. 1 ' f li t London,' with respect to the affairs of Bel lttrt-n,er„ as 83 G 0 reat Britain is concerned, since the month 4,1r.,1VNT seconded the motion. ttlie ALMERSTON said that he could not avoid ad g th e p tll, 4 ted t muse on some, at least, of the many points p t l ee °bY the Hon. Member for Middlesex, standing alentalivthe lion. Member had observed, the humble re 111hes, I : , °f the five great Powers, to whom allusion N il 'ele m . c '. In the first place, he would make one or on th . with respect to what the Hon. Member had M er ,`,. elt b,lect of our military establishments. The . y t t hs er, it appeared, was at a loss to see any rea !ha' eh e military force of the country for the present is 4 1 :111 ° ,;; I i exceed that of the preceding year; and the hi Li e had broadly stated that there was nothing It 4 atio n of England, or of the empire, that re l'e„ ac e e ,t' i tc Putred addition. Ireland being in a state httr'oo addleilfl lion. Member could not conceive why Ito n)ti,4%ional men were wanted. He (Lord Palmer %allot aMultialted that any man could get up in that ia, add ttontd declare that the Government of England 140,2° pre : armed with a proper power to enforce the °,4tr.'ty oi t. 'e the public tranquillity, and to preserve the , l e:l l 4g ; es r and iwAi sicaty's subjects from those disturbances,. th Poliation s the recollection of which must be k ei 't e the $o of every Member of that House.—(Hear.) he Ibikht7en• Member observed that the peace of he llo': 'ti,4l4l):ll"fficiently preserved by a far smaller force, ).1 . 1 41 rsi t greatly surprised at the assertion. The . sin-`)er need not go far—he need not, indeed, stir `th,' ill ns : eat s -4 o see the necessity which existed for pur -11,101 to ado which the Government felt themselves ilttit:ltipni4auttrit:rytta:;:t3Piril.t.:.:"....drut(ilii7l:ear, hear," from Mr. O'Connell, ° "sr- Hume.)—All that Government were nd p ha t d o the complete establishment of no intention to go beyond that tiltit:ititteitilliye‘wtia:lea..t6l.otitnsii,ni:ent.---(Hear.)—With respect to the „ on which the Hon. Member had dilated, noseyonnecto go into any argument to prove fitted proer that the colonies should 'Pla,eelit'Xie military e p stablishment far their protec ton, to greater part of the Hon. Member's speech re s. ~ 7'twhich were proper for discussion in the itiOtiotls.,vather than to be addressed to the House on Vet t 'oat t h e t 0 th._ Speaker do leave the Chair. With tt , ttio rt " Portion of the Hon. Member's speech "nt a s tif eaP!cially related to him (Lord Palmerston), 44 tak P44 ° ,1 that the course . which hotel Hon. Mem (lletty th a n Was not tt\less convenient to the service of the Os,t:',Whe..w..!.s unusual in Parliamentary practice.— L at ter , it wes'lt-iovernment was negotiating with other ft beta,ital, he apprehended, for that House not , 44,een his Majesty's Government and the ", the • tk th , Pending (Governmentnegociati hear.)— Vr'l et t o 1 .. 41 such confidence in the ki, think of t ,_that they might safely be intrusted with :i tt Itildatuure country, then he thought it followed that ,_pi e , 4 for e tk e _ Ought to wait till the negociation was vi e ,._ueY called on the Government to present a t)yQ r, heawr of their transactions with reference to it. %tilt: l l 4 e th ) `,.A challenge had been given by the Hon. 4 44 Y bjer"evernment, for the purpose of inducing ;i t tleg oeia !, the House all the documents connected IZ , h ti t t k' th, TI T? ; but the inconvenience which had ciN t , , 14, 1 eigie Government from publishing day by ask' ,te eeeurred in their intercourse with other tt JaSting this question, was so manifest, that it 84 " a decided answer to the lion. Aleut- ber's proposition.—(Hear.)-11 he did not follow the . Hon. Member through all his statements as to the &fe -1 rent protocols, he trusted the House would believe him • when he said, that it was not because he could not effec t tually answer then:. Let it not be supposed that, when the proper time arrived, his Majesty's Government would not be perfectly prepared to go into the minutest details of these transactions ; but certainly they would not lend themselves to immature discussions on subjects which were not yet ripe for consideration.—(Hear.)—Still, he was not willing to let the observations of the Hon. Mem ber piss without a general answer. The Hon. Member had asserted that Government were proceeding on the principles of the Holy Alliance, and that they were departing from the principle of nen-inter ence in the internal affairs of other States. He begged leave to deny the charge in toto.—(Hear, hear.) There was nothing whatsoever in the conduct of Govern ment that could sustain or countenance such a charge.— (Hear, hear.) It did appear to him that the Hon. Member must have a strange confusion is his mind, when he con founded the regulation of external boundaries and limits, with an interference in the internal concerns of a State. He would tell the Hon. Member the grounds .on which his Majesty's Government had proceeded. Did he forget that Belgium never was, in modern time, an independent State ? First it was Spanish, then it was Austrian, and next it was French. When the settlement of Europe took place, at the close of the late war, the natural course, per- , haps, would have been that Austria, its farmer master, should enter into possession cf it ; but as Austria sur rendered her right to it, all the Powers—Austria included —were disposed to ally Belgium to Holland. This was done, not kr the benefit of England —not as a matter of grace and favour to the King of the Netherlands. No, that step was taken to guard acid maintain the peace and security of Europe.—(Hear, hear.) And if circumstances 1 1 had occurred which rendered that union no longer pos sible, then, he would maintain, that the Powers which had ore taloned that union possessed a right to concern themselves with reference to its settlement, refraining, at the same time, from any interference with Belgium, so far as respected the form of government or the consti tution which its people might please to adopt.—(Hear, hear.) No such interference had taken place or was in tended ; but unquestionably the other Powers of Europe had a right to look narrowly to proceedings with which their own immediate interests were closely connected.—(Hear, hear.)—They had a right to say, " You are only a Go vernment of yesterday—you never were an independent state—you have been the servants of one master after another,—you have no right to deprive Holland of her an cient boundaries,—you have no right to convert yourselves into aggressors, and to claim, as yours, that which belongs of right to another."—(Hear, hear.)—Therefore, he con tended, that the Powers of Europe, and particularly England, were bound to say, that the ancient territories of Holland should not suffer. Belgium claimed the Duchy of Luxembourg. That Duchy belonged to the confedera tion of the German empire ; and the five great Powers had no authority to say to the Belgian Government, "You shall enter into that territory ;" and simply for this reason, because the German Confederation had rights connected with it, which no other Power ought to interfere with. He saw nothing in the principle of non-interference, if properly and rightly laid down, to which any objection could be made ; but if that which passed in a neighbour ing country was calculated to affect the general peace of Europe, then he conceived that interference to a certain extent was justifiable. Thus, if a person naturally dan gerous were selected for a Sovereign, those Powers who feared that they should be injured by the choice, had a right to say (without declaring who should be King), " Such a person will prove dangerous to us, and therefore sucha person we will not have."—( Hear. )—Proceeding on this principle, he womld maintain that the other powers were justified in sayiug to France, "It is not consistent with our feelings, with our interests, and with our engage ments, that the Duke of Nemours should become King of Belgium ; because, in that case, Belgium will virtually he united to France.—(Hear, hear.)—With respect to the Duke of Leuchtenberg, be was placed in such circum stances, that if be were nominated King, Belgium would become the focus of intrigue, and therefore those Powers had a right to say, that he was in their eyes particularly objectionable. Now he meant to argue that this was not an interference with the internal offal's of Belgium, in any fair or proper application of the term. The Hon. Mem ber had spoken at length on the subject of the adjustment of the debts of Belgium and Holland, and he had quoted a variety of protocols, which he (Lord Palmerston) would for the present pass by ; but he would, when the proper time came, give the fullest explanation on those points. He would only now observe, that when Holland and Bel gium were united, the debts of the two countries were also united, consolidated, and made common to both ; and now that a separation had taken place, it struck him as not being at all contrary to the principles of justice, or of in• dependence, that each party should be accountable for his own debts. He would at a proper time accede to such a motion as that which had been submitted to the House by the Hon. Member, but he should at the present moment resist it, because he was of opinion, that if it were agreed to now, it would probably be attended with great and serious inconvenience to the public service. —(Hear.) Mr. O'CONNELL said he should support the motion of the Hon. Member for Middlesex, because he thought that the House ought to have full information on the sub ject to which the motion referred. He had intended to have asked a question with reference to himself, humble an individual as he was, but he would postpone it to another opportunity. In his opinion, there had been an interference by this country with the internal affairs of Belgium ; and, as it appeared to him, the very worst kind of interference.—(Hear, hear.)—The speech of the Noble Lord to-night proved that there had been a most improper interference. The Noble Lord had talked of a Govern ment of yesterday. Yes, it was a Government of yester day, because it was only yesterday that the Belgians had broke the chains by which. the Holy Alliance had bound them to Hollanl, which was, he would say, one of the basest and most flagitious acts that had ever been com mitted. There were, however, more Governments of yesterday--if that oimervation was meant as a taunt. The Government of Louis Philip was a Government of yesterday.—(Hear, hear.)—The Noble Lord had told them that there was no interference with the internal affairs of Belgium—that the meddling with the boundaries of a country was no interference. It was perfectly evi dent that the contrary was the fact; for those who inter fered with the boundary might gn so far as to cut off Brus sels, or any other portion of territory, from Belgium. It was just as if an individual wished to take a large farm, and a powerful neighbour came and said, " I don't mean to interfere, but your farm shall be only half the size you wish ; I don't mean to interfere, but I will next examine your nurse; and lastly, though I don't mean to inter fere, yet I do not like the young woman whom you have selected for a wife, and you shall not marry her."—(Hear, hear.) It would he very well if the Noble Lord admitted that this was an interfering Government, and endeavoured to defend the principle ; but to say that it was not, with those facts in evidence, was ridiculous. lie could see no reason why those papers should not be laid before the House, and they had been laid before the people of Bel gium. He could not conceive what end would be an swered by a system of concealment. In consequence of the course which this Government was pursuing, France would receive all the benefit that might be derived from the affections of the Belgians, whilst England was thought lessly flinging it away. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said his Maj. sty's Government had been accused with having de parted from the pledge of non-interference which they had iwmerly given. This accusation was perfectly unfounded. The Hon. Member for Middlesex entirely approved of the conduct of :Ministers in endeavouring to preserve peace ; but how could they preserve it, if they were prevented from touching on thss question of boundary?—(Hear, hear.) Every man who valued the peace of Europe must see the absolute necessity which existed on the part of this Government to gibe some opinion as to the limits which ought to be established between Holland and Belgium.—(Hear, hear.) The anxious object of his Majesty's Government had been to do every thing in their power to preserve the peace of Europe; because, if the peace of Europe were broken, the peace of this country would inevitably be hazarded ; and he was quite sure that nothing which Ministers had done in endeavouring to effect that object could legiti mately he considered as breaking the pledge of non-inter ference which had been given. It was very evident that sovereigns might be proposed for Belgitun whose elevation would be the inevitable cause of war in Europe ; and he would assert that every country had a right, without going beyond the power which the law of nations allowed, to interfere so far as to prevent any sovereign from being elected, or rather not to acknowledge the election of any sovereign, whose elevation to that dignity was likely to foment war with other Powers.—(lleac, hear.) It was on this point only that Ministers objected to the election of the two Princes whom the lion. Gentleman had named. They had acknowledged the independence of Belgium, and all the five Powers bad guaranteed the neutrality of that country. It was, unquestionably, a matter of the utmost possibl- importance that the five great Powers of Europe should have decided that Belgium should be an inviolable and neutral state.—(Hear, hear.) All that Ministers had done was to preserve the peace of Europe; and they had in no degree deserved the charge of interference ivhit-h ha heen brought against them. • . Sir R. PEEL rose to give his decided opposition to the ' motion now before the House, because he was not pre pared to compel his Majesty's Ministers to produce copies of all the proceedings that had take❑ place in the different conferences relative to Belgium ; particularly when his Noble Friend had stated, on his responsibility, this night, that their production would be prejudicial to the pubic business.—(Hear, lyar.) For his own part, he was con tent with the assurance, that when the proper time came the fullest information would be given on the subject ; and therefore he could not postpone the vote far the army esti mates until the production of those papers. Being con vinced that it was highly impolitic to provoke discussion, possibly of an angry nature, with respect to the condition of other countries, he would abstain from assigning th e reasons which induced him to support the proposition of increasing the military establishment of the country. m i . would not, though merely an individual Member of Par. liament, imitate the example which had been set in the popular assemblies of a powerful and neighbouring State, and obstruct the great object of maintaining peace by un dignified declamation. If, however, the necessity should arise, we would prove that our silence had not arisen from indifference to the honour or the permanent interest, of this country.—(Hear, hear.) He was confident that such had been the progress of knowledge, and such was the force of justice even in this world, that the country which might provoke an unjust war—which should again visit Europe with the most terrible infliction to whirl, humanity could be subject—that of a general war without a just cause—that country, whatever might be its financial resources—whatever might be its spi rit of military enterprise—whatever might be the num ber of soldiers which it could command, would ul timately fall the victim to the force of public opinion, which would compose all our internal differences, and rally the whole of Europe to vindicate the great cause of peace and justice.—(Cheers.)--He was perfectly confident, that. if when France vindicated her own rights, and revolted against the unjust proceedings of the late Ministers, the Powers of Europe had confederated against the right of France to change her own internal Government, they would ultimately have failed in that unjust cause, and France would have nobly vindicated her right to change her own governors in the circumstances in which she was placed, against the combined will of Europe.—(Cheers.) —He was equally confident, that if unjust ambition should tempt France to pursue the course which forfeited his empire to Napoleon,—if a military faction should overrule the good sense of that nation,—then the whole of Europe would be united in as just a cause as that to which he had just referred, and the result would be equally glorious to them.—(Hear.)—Ile would dwell no longer on the subject. He earnestly hoped that the confidence which his Noble Friend had in the assurances of France would be justified. For his own part he did not profess to say that he read the speeches of the French Finance Minister with out anxiety and alarm.—(Hear.)—His Noble Friend, however, knew more of these matters than he could. He mild only repeat his hope that his Noble Friend placed a just confidence on theassurance which he received from France. He was sorry that his Noble Friend had said so much on the subject 01 Belgium, the more so, because he thought that there was nothing in the speech of the Hon. Member for Middlesex which called fur it. But as his Noble Friend had thought proper to say so much, he must allow him to say that he could hardly believe that he (Sir Robert Peel) had been turned out of office on the principle of non-interference.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.)--On the question of Reform, he was content to be at issue with the present Ministers. He had every reason to believe that his opinions on that subject were at variance with the opinions of the House, and he had no hesitation whatever in saying that even if Government had not been defeated on the question of the civil list, there would probably have been such an expression of opinion on the part of the House with respect to Reform as might have made it exceedingly difficult to conduct the affairs of Government with advan tage to the country. But to be told that he had lost of fice Oil the ground of retrenchment !—(Much cheering)— to have it supposed that be was separated in the public mind from his Noble Friend and his colleagues, on those two points,—namely non-interference and retrenchment, —appeared to him one of the most extraordinary things possible.—(Cheers.) The first part of the speech of his Noble Friend, in which he dilated upon the necessity of maintaining the military establishments, so much re minded him of those happy times when his Noble Friend was Secretary of War, and he sitting by his side applaud ing every sentence which he uttered, that he could hardly believe that he was in a state of political hostility to him. Cheers and laughter.) When he heard the Members of Government declare that the principles on which they acted, as opposed to the late Government, were those of retrenchment and non-intervention, he would frankly state that he did them the justice of utterly disbelieving their declarations, and felt perfectly confident that their conduct would be actuated by a due regard to the interests of the country,—that they were honourable men, prepared to throw overboard the declarations which they had so often heard.—(Hear, and laughter.) The Indians believed that they inherited all the qualities of their eneinis as soon as they were killed. It might be truly said, that as soon as one set of Ministers were killed, their opponents seemed to inherit nearly the same doctrines which had charac terised those whom they vanquished. They found it ne cessary to support the monarchical institutions, and the honour and interests of the country, and would not pre judice those great interests by too rigid a regard to the flashy speeches which they made whilst out of office. (Cheers, and laughter. )—That was the truth. He felt perfect confidence in Ministers as honourable men. With respect to retrenchment, if they meant any material reduction of the burdens of the people, he knew that to be impossible ; and with respect to non-intervention, he believed that they would never lose sight of the interests of the country, which they were bound to protect. Ile did not believe that Ministers when out of office made pro- I fessions on the subject of economy with the intention of producing discontent and dissatisfaction in this country, though lie feared that their speeches had produced that effect. Although he differed from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, there was no man in whose personal honour he placed greater confidence, and he hoped that when the country saw the Noble Lord who was the avowed advocate of popular rights coming forward, and instead of reducing the estimates propose an addition to them, they would not view the conduct of the House with dissatisfaction. The Hon. Member for Middlesex said that the late Government had made a reduction of 150,0001. between 1829 and 1830, and that therefore the present Government was bound to do as much. Was there ever such an absurd mode of reasoning !—(Hear.)— Was the conduct of the Government to be regulated by an iron formula, without any reference to she circum stances of the country ? He would merely observe by the way, that though the proaent Government had boasted that they would not govern by patronage, they could not add to the army without increasing their patronage. With respect to real retrenchment, he believed it would be found that the present Government would do very little. The Right. Hon. Baronet opposite might again rise and sing his hymn of victory over the abolition of the office of Lieutenant• General of the Ordnance, and some other places which had not been contemplated by the late Government ; but he appre hended that what the country thought retrenchment meant was a considerable reduction of their burdens.— (Hear.)—With respect to non-intervention, he did not differ much from his Noble Friend opposite, though he must say that be never heard the doctrine of the right of intervention argued on such high ground even by Lord Castlereagh hitnself.—(llear, hear.)— Whilst he listened to his Noble Friend, he was astonished that the King's speech at the opening of Parliament should have excited such virtuous indignation. Ile thanked his Noble Friend for having vindicated that speech, though his vindication was extravagant. What did his Noble Friend say had given us the right of interference ? Why this material circumstance, that Belgium never was an independent state. What ! because a country had never been inde pendent, did other nations acquire a stronger right to in terfere in her affairs ? The South American provinces were never independent until now; but would any one pretend that that circumstance gave other nations a supe rior right of interference ?—(Flear.)--In the latter part of his speech his Noble Friend had stated a fairer• ground for interference, when he said, that if what was passing in a particular state was pregnant with danger to other Powers, then those other Powers had a right to protect their own interests by interfering in the affairs of the obnoxious Power. That was the true principle of in terference. He could not concur in what had fallen from his Noble Friend as to the proposed arrange• ments respecting the debt of Holland and Belgium. The arrangement which was recommended by the Allied Powers might be a very equitable one ; but if the Belgians should refuse to accede to it, had England a right, or ought she, to go to war to compel them ? His Noble Friend said that the Allied Powers had a right to compel Belgium to relinquish Luxembourg upon the faith of the general treaties of 1815. In the Speech from the Throne, at the commencement of the Session, the Government had done nothing more tha❑ express an intention of adhering to those treaties, as the conduct best calculated to preserve the peace of Europe. But if the Allied Powers were en tided to separate Luxembourg from Belgiutn, without re tarenee to the washes of the former, what became of the doc'rine that Feople had a right to choose their own Go vernments? He thought that the British Government was quite justified in refusing their assent to the proposi tion for placing the Duke of Netnours on the throne of Belgium. Common sense suggested the impolicy of al lowing Franc, to encircle our shores, and to obtain pos session of territory, which in time of war would be con verted into an instrument of serious annoyer's,. He had said thus much to prove that there was no difference be tween the doctrines expressed in the King's Speech at the opening of Parliament. and those which the present 111 i• nistera acted upon. As far he was personally concerned, it would be more agreeable to him to see the Government pursue a course which would enable him to give them his support, than to dispossess them of their places. He earnestly hoped that when they brought forward the se rious question of Reform, for the sake of their own el:a ranter, for the sake of the interests of the country, that They would act on the same just principles on which they Nad acted with respect to the two points to which he had already referred, and that the taunts of the Hon. Member for Middlesex, and those who acted with him, would not tempt them to propose for the consideration of the House any measure which they thought pregnant either with im mediate or contingent prejudice, to the interests of the great country over whose present and future welfare it was their bounden duty to watch.—(Cheers.) Lord PALNIERSTON explained that his argument was that Belgium bad no right to deprive the Government of Holland of a country with which it had been historically illied.—(Cheers continued for some time.) Sir JAMES GRAHAM could assure the House that he meant to delay it but a short time ; but he should be unworthy of , the situation he held, and be should not act fairly towards his colleagues, if he did not trouble the House with a few observations, in reply to the Right Hon. Baronet. He should begin with that topic with which the Right Hon. Baronet concluded his speech. 1 he topic of Parliamentary Reform, which was second in importance to none, was the subject of the real difference between that Right Hon. Gentleman and his successors. It will be the duty of his Majesty's Ministers to prop ,se measures of Parliamentary Reform; as the Right Hun. Baronet had recommended them, in prop,sing a measure to improve the representation of the people, not to forget what was due to the Monarchy and the insti tutions of the country The Ministers had already assured the House and the country, that the limit to their proceedings in. respect to Parliamentary firm—the precise limit to which they meant to direct their efforts, was to give security to the institutions of the country. The Right Honourable Baronet had told them, with somewhat of irony, that their present conduct was inconsistent with their former pledges on the two subjects of non-interference; but in saying that, the Right Hon. Baronet had done justice to their motives, and had given them credit for acting honestly, and with a view to that great and proper object, the good of the country ; and the Ministers presumed that these admissions might lead him to believe, that in what respected Parlia mentary Reform 6'4 would act on the same motives, and with the view to the same object—the public gotd, which was the only one they had at heart.—(Hear.) With re spect to retrenchment, the Right Hon. Gentleman said that he (Sir James Graham) might chaunt the hymn of victory over the abolition of the office of Lieutenant-Gene ral of the Ordnance, which the last Government seemed to think was not material. If that were the proper occa sion, he could mention a great number of offices, and offices that constituted in themselves a great patronage; if that were the occasion, be could mention several officers connected with that department with which he was more immediately concerned, which had been abolished ; but that was not the time to enter upon such explanations.— The Right Hon. Baronet talked of what the late Govern ment could do ; he could state what the present Ministers bad done.—(Cheers.) He could appeal to the House and the country, as far as related to patronage, whether the present Ministers had not faithfully redeemed their pledges. The Right Hon. Baronet said the establishment had not been effectually reduced according to the promise. He admitted this. But why—was it consistent with their sense of duty? The Ministers ought to have credit for the reductions they had made in establishments. They had found it their duty in one respect to increase: they had added to the efficacy of the force without increasing the expense. How was that ? By cutting off what was superfluous, and making that which was essential efficient ; by throwing overboard patronage.—(Cries of " No.") He asserted that they had sacrificed great pa tronage, and he could say that of the department to which he belonged ; and, without adding to the expense, that great branch of the public service had been materially in creased. The Ministers did not take credit to themselves for all these improvements, but they had been enabled to make some of them by the state of efficiency in which they found the War-office. He gave the Right Hon. Gen tleman, the late Secretary of War (Sir Henry Hardinge) the greatest credit for his exertions. He considered that Right Hon. Gentleman one of the most efficient, regular, and judicious public servants the country had ever pos sessed.—(Hear, hear.) The arrangements at the Horse Guards were the cause that they had been able to raise 8000 men additional, without any increase of expense. But the question was asked, whence arises the necessity fur the augmentation ? In return he would ask, if ever a Go vernment succeeded to office under circumstances more full, more overwhelmed, he might say, with difficulty?—( Hear.) He could assure the Right Hon. Baronet that he meant to cast no odium on him; but he must be allowed to remind him of the state of the Home Department, over which the Right Hon. Baronet had presided, and he must know that when he left the office the metropolis was in such a state that his Majesty's late Ministers declared that it was not proper for his Majesty to visit the City of London.— (Cheers.) He wished the House to recollect that without employing any military force the Ministers had succeeded in vindicating the law—that without shedding even a drop of Wood by the band of a soldier, except that of the man whose case was alluded to the other evening by his Hon. Friend the Member for Wilts, when he described the great forbearance of the yeomanry, except that one life, no blood had been spilled by the military, and yet the insur rectionary spirit that prevailed in the country bad been subdued. Was there nothing too in the state of Ireland to justify some caution, when in that country with loud, and be might say shameless assertions, Gr ea t B rita i n h a d b een threatened that the Union should be repealed by physical force ? Yes, he said threatened, for the use of physical force was threatened. What had been done ? The Govern ment hail vindicated the supremacy of the law, and by the Courts of Law. Such threats had been met by the civil power, and when made had only induced the Government to exert the powers the Constitution had placed in their hands. He adopted to the fullest extent every word of what his Noble Friend (Lord Althorp) had said on a former evening ; and though he considered civil war as the greatest of alel, for one, wouldevil s, fight short fo only ere l o land of dismembering e li m e b w e , r , i n n l f f the empire, he, fight for Kent.—(Hear, hear.) tie was not blind to the perils of such a contest ; but, ea far as it depended on him, the country should never cease to resi s t th e se p ara ti on , an d he was sure that the whole people, who had never been conquered, would net allow themselves to be overcome by the people of Ireland. He corrected himself, he did not say that the people of the two countries were opposed, it on ly net the demagogues. —(Cheers.) ;la.-lion called out " Name, name !" Several Members called " Order, order !") It was only one or two demagogues, who knew not in what the i n t eres t o f th e coun try consisted, who sought for the repeal of the Union. There never was a country which had derived more benefit from . another than Ireland had from England since the Uaion. That country derived wealth from this, and found here the market for her produce. It was not Irish people, and it was not the Irish patriots_they CitAhlr' re ° f ' e never would : was only d emagogues w h o d es i re th e separation.— G r e o n r e n e i a n t Mahonop elßelgium, n c called d li a e gai n, would'6N a o m n l e y , h is state, that W Noble F r i en d did not say t h at b e i ng legis lators of yesterday was a cause of interference, but, being ne w, it was necessary to prevent them from interfering w i t h other States. Luxe m b ourg was express l y g i ven t o H o ll a nd by the treaty of 1815, an d i t h a d l ong b een t h e hereditary possession of the House of Nassau. Belgium could not be allowed to interfere with it, unless she were to be allowed to co mm i t an aggress i on on anot h er P ower ; anag gression, too, that was likely to alter the balance of power could not be all owe d. It was th e d u ty of the Go vernment to interfere. The Right Hon. Baronet said that there was no difference between the doctrine of the nisters and that of the King's Speech ; but, if he recol lected right, that speech spoke of the enlightened policy of the King of Holland, and expressed disapprobation of his r evolted . subject s . It express ly called the p o li c y of the King enlightened. A most ambiguous refer ence was made in that Speech to the treaties of 1815, by which Holland had been united to Belgium, as if it were doubtful whether his Majesty's Government did not feel it self bound to maintain the union of Holland with Belgium. by force, but that was directly contrary to the opinion of hi s Majesty's present Government. The Right Hon. Gentleman admitted gave admit fotedr not eopt allowing ropri the Duke of Neino etyofthereasonwhicht a l r ie Government s to be King of Belgium. The Government was opposed to war, and it was solemnly pledged to avoid that greatest of all possible calamities, by all the exertions in its power that were consistent with the honour and safety of the couutry. Isle would appeal to the public and the House if they had not successfully pi oerved pease, and he hoped that the honour of England remrined untarnished. The. blockade of the Scheldt hail been put an end to, and not blow struck. The si.ge of Maastricht had been raised, and not a drop of blood had been spilled. Great ditficul, ties had been overcome by neize:ciations. His Noble. Fiiend had stated that he ha I received assurances from all the t;ereign Governments of Eorape of their peaceful dis positions, and there was co reason to doubt the fidelity of those assurances. Ministers could not shut their eyes, however, to the fact that al Europe was arming on a lag. scale. Consistent with their declaration, they will do what they could to preserve peace, and it was their policy to preserve peace by showing that, should the honour of , he country be attacked, or the security of the nation en tangoed, they were prepared to repel the aggression. lie was a humble individual, and he was aware that it wa• very easy t I strip him of any popularity he might pos sess, hut while his conscience told him that he had no' oeen regardless of the situation and condition of the country, he should he contented with the silent approba tion of his own heart, which told him whatever might the result, and he had no doubt it would be one of triumph end exultation to 11;s country, he should be contented to have contributed, according to his duty, to the safety of his country, by his zealous endeavours to preserve peace, end his strenu•nts exertions not to leave the country de fenceless.--(Cheers.) Sir J. YORKE. having observed upon the universality el the present debate, although the ostensible subjet.t was the artily estimates alone, referred to the nitre-economical recommendations of the Hon. Member for Middlesex. who certainly appeared to labour under the effects of what Tile vulgarly called " a bee in the bonnet." Mos; as ;tiredly, if he continued to recommend a diminution of the force of the country in times like the present, he should feel it necessary to move for a committee de lunatic° in quirendo.—(Laughter.)—Abserbed, as he must have been, by that interesting species of literature comprised under the designation of Parliamentary returns, it was not strange that he should not have found time to look at the public newspapers for the last six months, which would otherwise have convinced him of the necessity of putting the kingdom iii a position of defence. The Hon. Gen tleman seemed to think that a Government ought always , c) be able to abduct us from all serapes, past, present, and to come, without even the intervention of political nego tiation with other states; but he should have considered that the kind of intervention heretofore employed, to which he so much objected, had been entirely of au amicable nature. To the unfortunate circumstances which had occurred during the memorable 'days of Ju'y, lie feared they might attribute all the troubles through out Europe which at present threw so much business on the hands of diplomatists ; and the question now was, not whether we were to abstain from interference with others, but whether others were not likely to interfere with ourselves. Had not the case of Holland and Belgium been instanced as similar to that of England and Ireland ? And surely when di ctrines of this description were afloat, they ought to weigh well the danger of parsimonious re ductions in the military force requisite for the protection of their institutions. He gave Government credit for having been zea'ous in the work of administering justice between man and man, and cordially congratulated them on their triumph over an Hon. Member whom he did not then see in his place; nor did he disapprove of their policy respecting the a.nount of the army which it ap peared they thought it necessary to maintain. Mr. O'GORMAN MAHON said he rose for the pur pose of defending his country from the unwotthy and unwarrantable aspersions of the First Lord of the Ad miralty, but would first express his dissatisfaction at the conduct of Government generally, seeing that they did not carry the principles of non-interven tion and economy to the extent which they had promised. The late Ministers were at least honest, whatever might be the character of their successors, for they stood by their declarations, and so standing they fell,—he wished every one else would do the same.— (General laughter.)—The Right Hon. Baronet had talked of inflicting blows on Ireland, because he knew that the sentiment would be cheered by Whig and Tory as a re gular matter of course.—(No, no.)—He only desired to know from what quarter those cries proceeded, as in that case.—(Order, order.)—Well, since his present observa tions were unpalatable, he would change the subject, and alvite the gallant Admiral to give the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) a few lessons in nautical phraseology, which would not only be officially useful in his new situa-• tion, hut might enable him to employ language intel ligible to pain country gentlemen, as he would not in that case have spoken of " the raising" of the Scheldt when " the opening" of a river would have been as correct a mode of expression, if not altogether as elegant.—(Laugh ter.)—The Hon. Gentleman then resumed the discussion of the Union question, which he pledged himself, " by Him who made the world," should never be suffered to die away so long as he lived to agitate it. He was repeatedly called to order for violence of language and personality of application ; but as the speech, both in matter and man ner, was a mere counterpart of those which the same Hon. Member has delivered on this topic during the last three weeks, we deem it unnecessary to mention more than the substance of what he uttered. After calling on Sir George Murray to bear testimony to the valour of the Irish soldiers in the continental campaigns, he demanded to know whether he was to consider-himself one of the demagogues to whom the First Lord of the Admiralty had disrespectfully alluded in his remarks on the agitation of the Union question. Mr. G. DAWSON then rose, chiefly with a view to establish the claim of the late Ministers to the character of an economical Government, which he attempted by read ing a list of offices which he produced for that purpose, but the noise in the House was so great during the few minutes which he occupied in endeavouring to gain a hearing, that it would be impossible to detail his items without trust ing so much to conjecture as to preclude th e p ro b a bility of accuracy. Mr. R. GRANT commenced by assuring the Hon. Member for Clare that he did not intend to utter a word or a syllable which could offend him, but he nevertheless felt it his duty, in the strongest terms, to repudiate the charge which that Hon. Gentleman had erroneously brought against his Majesty's Government, who, so far from delighting in the prospect of civil war as he re presented, held it, one and all, in utter horror and de testation. He would suppose that the people of Ireland bad reaped the greatest possible benefits from the Union, (which he admitted they had not done hitherto), and that the English, becoming jealous of the advantages which the sister kingdom thus enjoyed, sought to repeal that measure ; in such an event, would not the Hon. Member do his utmost to defend it ? He besought him then to have patience until the effects of emancipation should be more fully developed, and not persevere in attempting to undermine a fundamental law of the empire, as equivalent advantages in Ireland, he trusted, ere long, would accrue from its operation. An invidious compa rison had been drawn by the Right Hon. Member for Har wich between the economy of the present and the economy of the late Government. He did not pretend to impeach the accuracy of the voluminous details into which the Right Hon. Gentleman had entered, for of them he knew nothing ; but it was impossible for any Member of the late Government to claim merit for the reductions which it had made without this consequence following from it, that greater praise was due to the present Government, which had reaped such a plentiful crop of reductions from the field which their predecessors boasted of having gleaned so closely ?—(Hear, hear.) He could not recon cile the first with the last part of the speech which the Right Hon. Baronet opposite had made. In the first part of his speech he had shown a reluctance to mention even the name of Belgium; it was with him a certain country ; but in the latter part of it, be went into all the doctrine of non-intervention, for the purpose of showing that we had been guilty of that interference which we de- precated ; and then the Right Hon. Gentleman wound up all the eulogium which he made en the late Government of which he formed a part, by saying, " I don't see, after all, that the present is so much better than the late Govern went."—(Hear, and a laugh.) It was singular enough that the matters which formed topics of praise on the pre sent Government with the Right Hon. Baronet were the very same matters which formed topics of blame against it with the Hon. Member for Middlesex. " In equal parts our guilt arta glory ran," for one blamed us for the very conduct for which the other deemed us worthy of approbation. "Retrenchment,"said the Hon. Member for Middlesex, " I see nothing like it, for your estimates are 100,0001. more than the estimates of your predecessors last year." " Oh," said the Right Hon. Baronet, " don't go on in that John-Bull mode of jumbling figures together, without considering what the figures denote ;" and then, as if he were tired of giving the Government a lift against the Hon. Member for Middlesex, he turned round and rebuked himself for his complaisance, by saying, " Oh, you gentlemen of the present Government have not reduced the establishments more than we did." The Right Hon. Baronet then went upon another tack, and after alluding to the reductions of the Vice-Tre ►- surer of Ireland, and some other officers, said, " Your retrenchments are trifling." Trifling were they? Then w hy did the House sit up night after night last sessien contesting about them? Why was the whipper-in--nay, why were two whippers-in —sent about town to beat up recruits for their defence? The patronage which the Bight Hon. Baronet now considered so insignificant, was not resigned until after a severe struggle maintained, until • a sues-ssful resistance became hopeless.—(Hear, hear.) One word on the question of Reform. " Your pledge of oconomy," said the Hon. Member for Middlesex to the Governm-nt, "is forfeited—so is your pledge about non interference; but there is your pledge about Reform, which I think, for your own interests' sake, you will redeem." Now he would ask the Hon. Member whether, if the Go vernment redeemed its pledge on that point it would not be the extinction of any blame which might accidentally b e lue to it on the two other points. Since the Govern inent could only do that which it had done badly in ,:onsequence of its having to act with an unreformed Par liament, could it win for itself greater praise than this—that t had put the seal upon the possibility of the commission of aidh errors in future by taking from itself the support by which such errors bad hitherto been derended ? He was no !neinher of the Cabinet—he was therefore unacquainted with the plan of Reform of which the Noble Paymaiver of the Forces was to be the propounder : but this he believed, that every pledge which the Government hid given on the object of Reform would be redeemed fully and satisfacto rily.—(Heir, heat.) If it Lad been guilty of mis senduct in its policy hitherto, the country had at least the !onsolation of seeing that a term was at length fixed to the continuance of that misconduct.—(Hear.) As to the subject of notninterference, he would candidly confess that he had not studied its details with care, and that he was enacqiiainted with the circumstances of the ne,otiation. All the confusion which existed upon the subject, appeared to have been produced by our being mediators between Hol land and Belgium. If we were mediators, we must resolve the question of intermediate boundaries some way or other, before we could hope to come to any final satisfactory re sult. In,conclusion, he called upon the House to give the present Government fair play. It w s impossible for Mi nisters during the short period which they had been in office to have completed any part of the circuit of improve ment which it was their determination to run. Let tile House wait a little longer before it came to a decision on their merits. It was inconsistent for gentlemen to announce 'n one breath their conviction of the difficult task which Ministers had to perform in the present circumstances of the country, and theta to suppose in the next that th y could set all that was wrong to rights by one single a id simultaneous effort.—( Hear.) Sir R. PEEL said, that from the strange misrepresen tations which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had just made of his speech, lie was almost tempted to suppose that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was not in the House when he delivered it. What he had said was this—that he could not rate all the reasons which he had for sup porting an increased military force fur the present year, fir he was not desirous of entering upon topics which might excite irritation in popular assemblies. He spoke cautiously and guardedly on the point, for reasons which he was sure the House would understand without his explaining them further. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman represented him (Sir R. Peel) to hire said, that lie was proud to give his active support to the Government. He (Sir P. Peel) trusted that he should be ready to support his Ma jesty's Government on all occasions. What he said was this—that if an appeal should be made by the Government to that House for increased resources to ensure the preser vation of the permanent interests and honour of the country, he should forget all causes of alienation, and should assist the executive Government with all his power, in vindicating the honour and safety of the country. Mr. R. GRANT said a few worels in explanation, but they were inaudible in the Gallery. Sir G. MURRAY said, though the Members of the present Government, 4vlien they were out of office, bad taunted the Members of the late Government with being too slow in eff•cting retrenchment, they had not, since their promotion to office, been more rapid in their march to it than their predecessors.—(Hear, hear.) Again, when out of office, they had made declaration upon declaration against all interference in the concerns of foreign countries; and yet, now that they were in office, they had been guilty of as gross intervention as any of their predecessors.-- (Hear.) So, too, on the question of Reform. When they were on that side of the House on which lie hid the honour of sitting at present, they had held up to the country expectations of Reform much more sanguine than any which they now encouraged.—(Hear, and laughter.) With regard to the flattering manner in which the lion. Member fur Clare had spoken of his kindly feelings towards Ireland, he had only to observe that there was not one min in that House who did not entertain friendly senti ments towards the people of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) He admitted that he had a warm attachment for Ireland, and for the people of Ireland, for both deserved it. He was satisfied that the interests of Great Britain and Ireland were so united and so inseparable, that it was impossible to promote the welfare of the one, without promoting at the same time the welfare of the other. He had, therefore, heard with regret the expression of civil war used by a member of his Majesty's Government. It was beyond all question an unfortunate expression.--(Hear, hear.) He bad likewise heard with regret a distinction taken by the First Lord of the Admiralty between the people of Eng land and the people of Ireland. He knew of no distinc tion between them : he never would admit that any such distinction had existence. He considered them as one and the same people, the subjects of a common Sovereign—the partakers in the blessings of a common Constitution.— (Hear.) When Hon. Gentlemen talked of the repeal of the Union between the two countries, he blamed them for this. If they had brought forward measures for the be nefit of Ireland, to which they could never attract the at tention of the Imperial Parliament, then they might have ground for calling for a repeal of the Union; but it appeared that whenever the name of Ireland was mentioned in that House, there was an anxious desire among men of all par ties to listen with the utmost attention to every plan that was proposed for the improvement of its condition.— (Hear.) lie could not, tl seefore, see any grounds for the endeavours which were now made to prothice a repeal of the Union,—a measure which implied a separation of in terests between the two countries which did not and could not exist between them. —(Hear.) Sir J. GRAHAM asserted that he had never spoken of the people of England and Ireland as two distinct people. —(Hear, hear.)—lle could not have made use of such an expression, as the thought was very far from his mind. He had said that it was not the people of Ireland who sought a repeal of the Union, but certain agitators—he would not repeat the offensive word " demagogues"— (Hear, and a laugh)—beyond all question sought that ob ject by every means in their power.—(Cheers.) Mr. NORTH said that he rose for the purpose of an swering an argument of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite (Mr. R. Grant), which might prove dangerous in the sister kingdom, if it went abroad with his authority. " If," said the Hon. Member, " all the advantages which Ireland expected to reap from the Union had been realised to the fu:lest extent, and if the people of England had wished to disunite the two countries, because they had not • derived the same advantages from it, the necessity of continuing 'the Union would almost form a justi fiable cause of war for Ireland against England." Now, if this doctrine went abroad with the sanction of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, he feaied that the people of Ireland would reason thus :—That if they had not reaped from the Union the benefits which they ex pected, and if they failed in obtaining from the House a dissolution of the Union, they would have an equally jus tifiable cause of war' in resisting the desire of the people of England to adhere to that Union.—(Hear, hear.) When the Hon. and Learned Gentleman rose and touched upon the speech of the Hon. Member for (Aare, he (Mr. North) was in hopes that he (Mr. R. Grant) had risen to do away with the unpleas int effect which had been caused by the unfortunate expression used by the First • Lord of the Admiralty. He knew full well, that when the Right Hon. Baronet spoke of the nation's asserting its supremacy over Irelanil—(" No, no !)—he was not aware of the force of the terms which he was employing. The expression had come on his ears with a jar like a dis cord in music ; and somethink spoke to his heart, that a term had been uttered derogatory from the honour of the country in which he was born, and in which all the affec. e times of his heart were centered. Sr J. GRAHAM said that the Hon. and Learned Gen tleman laboured under a strange misapprehension. He denied that he had ever used the expression of " the su premacy of England."—(Hear, hear. ) —What be had said he was not inclined to retract. He had &Lid, and he re peated the expression, that Government was determined to vindicate the supremacy of the law Over all the agitators in Ireland.—(Loud cheers from every part of the House.) Mr. NORTH slid, that nothing could gratify him mere than the explanation which Lad just been offered to the House by the First Lord of the Admiralty. It u•as not necessary for his (Mr. North's) satisfaction—for he knew that the Right lion. Member meant nothing offensive— but he knew that a proud and irritable people like tl e Irish, jealous of national honour, might be offended by it ; and therefore he was so glad that so mischievous a phrase had been so readily disavowed.—(Hear.)—The term-, upon which alone the Union between the two countries could he preserved, were terms of equal , ty, Ireland claim ing and receiving for herself the enjoyment of all the rights of British subjects, co equal and co-extensive with the British nation.—(Cheers.)—He should tint add a word more on the present occasion, as he merely rose for the purpose of obtaining that explanation from the First Lord o f the Admiralty, which he hoped weiald be asl etitaFft . o u r a y t o . the people of Ireland, as it had tee!? to Mr. HUME rose amid loud cries of