The Sun. — London, England, 1831-03-10 00:00:00

, i Au k m ade by1 24 ,... t SCl.4 4 l hd as decid e dl y every wall i n t h e county was i n. Foreign A:'-0 to 4. - 11 ith " Tyrrell and Reform."—(Hear, hear.) And try's Goverool.. 114._ !teller that his Hon. Friend was a reformer, he /stow 9 thiindOUbt he (Colonel Tyrrell) owed his election. He sage ice together, 4 4: 1 _,ired, too, that his Hon. Friend stated at the frqoTory Meeting held in that county, that he was a t say that the ted at that till P tmilfteti Reform, and that the declaration gave extreme observatiouhthe tli ttn. , 0 11 to the assembly. He proceeded to observe tely bt fc r billi it ~.'4 e tiliasure was called a revolutionary measure ; but ta il s of t.°,_, he t'ather a Bill for the restoration of rights. If lease particular. o'7 eittetfa. ""'t eonyholders similar to those at present had F.'e particular! ibi,t, tilsit il th h.a r 'nerlY, there could be no doubt that they would tut the right of voting.. If large towns, such as -005 sited to,e, a he g t the titr e eo lla „enrepresented, had been formerly i existence, : Dell t° ti nus be no doubt they would have bannspresenta• onstgne-',.. owl h t. ..... raid to t a e bt s eil 4,14 General] speaking, he would give his support to ,sed the ''' g _s•eis' est ad a 'nre, but would take the liberty of suggesting, in told , o_ff t ;: ip •gi toetz ki t i. t k _tee, that the franchise, as regarded leaseholders. re a dvantageously extended. If the people had disclanneu, iis. .l . dd._ Y been silent on this subject, it was not from in power of rt r • , ~„ oa r ' ri.,-"are to Reform, . . t a l ent 0 /"' ti fetq ‘v; b but from despair of seeing it car putnow that saw in office a Government that rivate e t , ,,eie r i %e te i iiie t they i . iy the c..e.r. I 4lti in _ g 0 carry Reform, they expressed toeir appro g dor • % 4 o f the • But the t be t , measure, in favour of which they had now thi t tvastleataye with petitions. They had been told that portents of 4, You r e. %su re '' 2 Improper time for the introduction of the I slity w ith tee , tt whi ~1 bnt he thought otherwise, end hailed the period ~..1 0. its 1 At t h at Way introduced, and thought it was the fittest l is s e ti d: an d .. 1 0 ." , or kl L j et ti l io a a t co t uld htve been chosen. He asserted, in con o. Me' to tit tlitt them 0 those who had declared an opposite opinion, , ° cl volunteer t!it th _' fle , ure was not the consequence hoof intimidatien, [onstitueots; t o s pit, e .iincevitable result of the triump those prin ith his 0 0 re, the e wh it had been so long. and so zealously advocated bridge, f t h° cod' het td who were now the Members of his Majesty's ghts of of p res ""tC 4 , O , '. 4- -(Hear, hear.) This measure was not, like op f it : NI tohe qtieation, one that had been extorted from the rge tote t seat. i f of i n , . ' ws - ts / c ollid e — al' tAtives, le t _..fl they Government, who would have withheld it t h e elector s. tia , th e ~, , (Hear, bear)—but was a spontaneous act ,d n ot frog bp s pact of the Government, and came, therefore as a I. •It teas littkimle that it was ItieaLeald with the grace of a matter of favour, at the really an act . of justice.—(Hear, t dinner2l„o., er two bn,t tior [ ki....clfue,shnuld, therefore, give it is cordial support. oest i on , W .:A s %, "Its, e te : i ttr A . llLES DOUGLAS could not support this o ee. f .s, eto p ti ... kith he thought was founded in a violation cf en he "7,f ht. " ci Pies fTo Constitutionwhich seemed him to Neile r e p h .• - t h e 0 the ~ kr.. nestruction of the institutious of the country. re the b rei t t old • an • %ti e Alderman WAITIIMAN was' sorry to s: e, that ering, bot, o p o o o l i i tfo : 0, i trse debates, many Hon. Members had risen up to sea ; wou ld 84 , , 41 4 epee ' l e abuses of the Constitution more openly than he % p l e ase:oo NI j. f heard before. The pertinacity with which they i r i • fill'),, l Se no 1 1 „; ncl ,e , 1 these abuses quite astonished him ; and those ;' ff, la : ito i l . p . 1.4: t ‘e . ht • r •;_in the strongest terms,. defended t those abuses were may to' o i l t vilei l 6 7 who were individually connected with these t i ient m ber for t y. L. lleall ool f ° oghs. They had been told that this Reform was bjectiona tl r oc' ;ger :, .e th. ° D r, because there was no complaint of grievances d over se" t ° l to 1, - t_ ta t i , th-essouse ; but he denied that assertion : for, in his H e obje° f eta [ .ti t the People complained of the worst of grievances, p . sr t he , t ith e In Y declared that they bad no voice in the election for the ‘1 told relghfor [ N en e n Who made the laws by which their lives and ,3' Meat i 0 6 4 , t i Y Were to he disposed of. It was a fact, that flinty '''. 1.41 1 1 141 of eera returned above sixty Members of Parliament— us and b 0 PE ! 0 wh o .„ tha t the 0 1 ,74 ) ,, . ru held places of profit or pension under the - 0 1;ears wf,:ets .. I tte p e l rs a o u n d s how was it possible, lie asked, to consider [burn) hat., I k le g iun, , Its the true tepresentatives of the people of se count*, --, t bot 414 , it Z• Yet, the power they possessed was consi as new tolo 0 0 . Go o __ the Constitution of that House was such, that ;utieee we r o s peg o ty retoearilline.nt could not go on without their aid while L ad in the .0 ie eon.. gained in it. He denied that this measure was „ n og N I the pr o r - 0 i 4 7: 1 .. u en . ce of intimidation. Never had the people 5f c m , o loB l4 o ii Noti the'alm and temperate in their demand of a right, the chang e ; 0 i / th at present occasion, and it was a libel on them to it tes ‘ h. th ,eY Wished to upset the Constitution. The !Rea e conductswiejl tes eteuthe yleoniltdhe Government had now introduced was very he questio. t o o , the Coro t 'i fra tia* very cordially approved of by the people, and ile Cons""-001 Prohne°7nernment had worthily gained their confidence by on theor/ l a ji th lip to F 4.- -( - rear.) At the same time that he said i gro wing of lo t Per itti P e demanded their right of full representation tetn i by t h e er' .. o . I S % Y et, ' I'I.;V demand observe, that to refuse it to them now lt. of a pe . , r •;,45, it u... demandit, would he most improper, and '' o rn ight ity t 'eat b a r wish of the people were attended to, lie feared "Awn sit W ar r t t i kat t „ e ftlequences might ensue. The people of this t was 0 0 ,0 I,,ttie ne i tl . ere not in the least disloyal, but by long mis-go ait,,L o f , ! L IN to r s , u tt i. n h d by wasteful . expenditure, they had been re should the parr - o t• . - vs keel . • suffering, that they had been forced to inquire r of t" GOV er°ll3 if t iii 4 7 ,Into the cause ; and having done that, and found e d 1 0 4 Ntd ed met imperfect state of representation, they sle pt-ors_ . as, to, , lai_ . :,,t , ,'' , 15.,,, i : " With good reason, that that cause should be dium 1 ,7 4, 1 di d ' It was said that the peeple . who made this de obtained Vr-. Adrniu i !elle n ., tot "m not understand the Constitution. He denied that pit ,7 , ,,_,Nts e . but if it were true, what did it prove, hut I r ci at n io o nt,fferi 0 1 under- NI ~wase:itiAltutiou which was incapable of being Goverotee 'of '‘ li....( ll ,ear, h ear, f 0 r nothing and required to be amended? most Oita', ON s o one _f,_ He wished to call the attention of the hat h e wi9r be auvrided7reurnatance which seemed to have been but re, 'IV vas set 1 0 , and that was, that when the Constitu ',reerf:woulo e ar; I , ol i i,: d ted at the Revolution the people were only itt , ~b,....,.,ere.,,,.._,:er0us as they were now, and the debt teen old, ' A than tO r Ored ni.„u. C. At present the debt amounted to eight ' L a id s Y ba „ se°, tV ci ett . . nlions, and the annual revenue to fifty ~,,s 0 ; l et 17 1 0 ii ,„!, and the change, therefore was so great in popu props, t o '4 0 1 - • , M,' M rev Be f colf 14, t C oilst . enue, as to require a corresponding change ehver.flouse 0' 1/ 4 L._ett, ald istvtiti".—( Hear, hear.) Under these circum ...,ciplee, Ztitoeet: ithout troubling the House further—for his r pri.. 0 the e ils' %Nud e ,en the subject were well known—he should ;ice t Its ts is 't k e "Y declaring, that he gave his cordial support to ell; t y iesat te .t! , I t ,. 48 4 1:re. L. -Y . eiee''oeil Nt e s 11l ZGERALD was strongly opposed to this their ~ 0 ,0 1 .4 e Zse a ,:„S Hy which his • Crowe ',':,„lfr' s ;g: ntt e ,_•ullasi on constituents were to ) the Nob t!9 te I N Ors 4 t , - -Were to be for ever wiped out of the list , e ven ki t Wh et . 'le kingdom. He denied that this measure ta s e ' r roee sor to sr 0tk,,, ; had been called—a renovation of the old Con pffilßut two le o . t is elateriod it was rather a destruction of that Constitution. „,. i„ k ...that this was revolutionary in its nature; and Friend, vil'"00, 0 which in l i e ft g tevoluta.-lntber fur Colchester acknowledged that it ; „ llous e .,o o , 14: 1 It" '"ary, and said lie gloried in it on that account. ass .11 ceos to b it .. t • ti t ,MEMEER whose we could not learn a la f biO C l ' t • N: I *n ext he tir ' st heard n or this measure he though; iarge ° 11, Pii, ttti 'ult to 2 In . ost weeping Reform ; but when he had had wishes. - h t 4e , nos i d er . h hi s Big f istr f oi . ni tiso it fully, he saw that it was a just and lan d, torethoef wholesome Reform ; that . it was con eat in ti? s e a t 1 . 1 en dePril oft ii It r , 4e 'Visit ofprinciples of the Constitution of Eng which it manifestly adopted, and was 1 defence pre g h a F r i in teli ‘i i e t 7 t n' h. e" with the original rules of justice, liberty, Iwo __ ..o op . , t , (L i h., It was in accordance with those principles entler sec ol? ts ;ty sii"ee eXisted before all Co stitutiona and on which ce and rd Noble i fr eer fid j s t iv t e it tlii ht s o t° ll l_iPend; .and in n that belief he was ready Bill wel it ° olo7 2 t t • STu m) '„and cordial support.—(Cheers.) . that Esnstres eti el l '. lit t " was, we believe, opposed to the Bill. re re .eir ik titt le , 'TUN said, that in justice to that numerous ho we ren oe i f -It their , red ° t i ttis tin 'e, to eY "'hem he had ' the honour of repre eating in os ije 40r, to try , 1 . gether with his own feelings towards the to ce be ,tte t , me cold would th e Pj• N, I . ce t o th e not consent merely to give a tacit con own to t orro 4.,,, , . : . N .... 7 measur e proposed by his Majesty's Govern -1.1 on die or, lqine st i o "iun could . be more adverse than he to any line figure s . °; o i fi s , tkiltitati .t no a c }' that . could by possibility injure . that oul d it t 6/ i te tte -.4% Precis e which we had the happiness to live; 0 01 4 Ey 4,441.44ty for that reason that he should give his ' n . t of ° rid te t t eeee i nt the Proposition of the Noble Lord, with ) od iv u b ,, en tbsl y 6 ; 47, a ,teParb!.eenn..ents further discussion might suggest. [e op peoc oto str i o 14, 4, Pre servati i o f ramed by men having so deep a stake !eted to _ J el As ttlea %nit! not be of public order, framed by the Govern- Ile c oteo' olio . 1 1 , t lheou, ie %iv deemed of a revolutionary, or even of ,nstruet °° lo , l9 . hoh,:_iioe, thatn"ney. But he felt the danger to be on the roUgIA ieL,xa , k.,d ~,, not the adoption , but the rejection, of the ~„, to ,- ,•sr k,N. 5,._,...eam r ,. _ ... I roc' $l/ 1 , ,_rti ; 1 0 . t h in ,' will entail a state of things, which no H o use. ti , . i t' N ti - ,`‘' to . „ (I .,'_` of without shuddering, without being 4, w oul se" all 1 41 44 e a•Ke every effort, and every proper sacrifice, , 0 , by . 0: 1 1 1 4;c 4 Y ib y I'lleennter it. They were not surely called from tht io S ei ege ' 1 44 4 :tau e „ ..". Members to treat with indifference the ost e % P e 11) [Ole kit ) o ,,ttuld eo and wants of the times in which they lived. f the ( i o po ili Itia t ,h, sin-on. Member, who has had an opportu o ft t to e — -le . . 3 nenta ° d h e if ;: I ,' 14 4 7, b e . " , tite of public feeling throughout 7:so ;r e/ i dle oem_ bo ld enough to declare that the demand I,eie fir if e et t- tic at duceee.,oud and so general, could be rejected • of e i/ 1: 1 uenter? Had not a •ht spirit been r e , cl o e 9 ince Iv Jr lt .ty t.liee.goYiotecent events, fresh in the m r ig ecol y lect ip ion of all, ' , 0 _lol,e t‘liti colgi, t lat that very moment around them ? And a su re e: bee , w ow % 0" 4..tnot be lull ed assured that the spirit thus awakened te tur" 'ili 9 ° Vi t a by the somniferous orations of those, ti es l ., Al ass; . .. etual abuses th e s cr,,,i, tOrmi. N o - ' ' being ear ,- A Ito e ~t r, ~ t wisely, but too well," .0 0 _ ; : f l oc a, , I t h tl ar s tha:uat the whole structure should fall about nt ° to ri t o 1 •R. °De snug comfortable nest should be dis- Hotoe • n g e ety , 1 ` Ei le ; would sa • i ts be' s ot . 0' TV rid, the t• Y With the poet, i 0 , of . , 4 The he„ tb. mite is come when thou sliould'st wean ' '' '''''ln b o ; o o.ei s'' '. IP hi llo th" . i_ dld t t h r u i th sfrulditnewrnasbcbuelattteineguft°lcrer'stood ; land, ,i, i it es have been H ou se sho l7 f .t tiogir shore of th n unsttled." early t° t he is , 14410 441 1 to e most complete infatuation could the necessity of conciliating the people—a ore r tli ° e %i . ciuhi bat 41 1 i - e eat all times, whv 1 0 wi .'et do se .1 A but absolutely requisite now. aro.oo, A e , , .._ eel, e_, 11, he should just notice some observe set e •cti t or . 1p t witi t t 44 0 been advanced . re' j 0 .'''' [ Itt i ta, etere n by Hon. Gentlemen oppo ee to the decayed and objectionable bo os"t coo d 40 ' W hich a ntrl . • 'wr . 1 1%4 i i , ...) the h • t i l ts o f [ 1 44 tied the ii L Y ad been told, had been the means of vetch $l ,l O O O ; ilsit; alt n o 'lf 8 0 much talent into that Hon. v et , - I ... ~ 11, 0 n o ty .. 0 c i e str/ es ty vow i %,. 1 1 v ol etnber Hon, islember, except the Hon. and Waterford who, in his eloquent t oo tb .i e 0 0 41 ! ift i s,-4. i t:4 l a 4 t night , o h r . s W _ .hstoovemehaodseesnorntoe pointed observations ebe c al t hltZt ik k nf e t Pea h e r o ed ._ to point out the probable co o t or ia elt of bleseppo.aite quality admitted throu h the same f 0r ...1, Il e re li # iN4 th e li en- Gentlemen said, that, for the . well -04'11'0013 tl , W;io Nt. t Pesa co--übtr Y , it was I . 1 ,0405,0 ° . $ I .. to e % e _(, necessary that the Aristocracy 7 ohewisilerahle influence in the return of ve .g 4 . .. hit enn timans House of Parliament- Now ; a t t re?, o l o : ',_..,-, . ‘l l- , tivicr! ,_ . moat, be influence, which always should, , 0 4 0 7 4 0 I.ol i i ''' e th ° l be attached to property, no one wished s cle' D hie (AO? ie.: hitv e •Aristoc , at t . _O. -. , o A „_ .e felicitous] -raeY ; and when Hon. Members tP fri eP ,ile tt' q ltltu • " n uslY proved that borough influence t the. Iv ) fo t pit 24 inouence, that it was not one of eat t lenal • a ted h of the good ,sense of the nation, a et if9e ' lan [nits to the most unjustifiable mode of parking an elective assembly—(Hear, bear, hear.)—then he, for one, shonid be unwilling to disturb it. But believing, as he did, that this aristocratical influence tended to the annihilation of one of the three great estates of this kingdom, and that not the least important—the representation of the people ; reducing the Constitution, in its present very de cayed and nearly worn nut state, from a Constitution of King, Lords, and Commons, to that of King, Lords, and their dependents—(Hear, hear)—instead of the free choice of the Commons of Englan!—(Hear)--believing that; he could not sympathise in the wish of those Hon. Gentlemen, that the Aristocracy should be permitted to retain what, in his opinion, was an unconstitutional power, under the gentle denoinination of a considerable share of Parliamentary influence. He would repeat the words of a celebrated writer— "Let us exult, that they who rule the land Are men who hold its many blessings dear, Wise, upright, valiant ; not a venal band, Who are to judge of danger which they fear, And honour which they do not understand.— , (Hear.) Mr. COURTENAY said, it was possible that it might be called a Reform which was in truth no amendment ; the tendency of any measure, the effect of which would be greatly to popularise the house of Commons, would destroy the balance of the Constitution, and render it im • possible that the King and the Lords should preserve their proper weight. Mr. Fox thought as he (Mr. Courtenav) thought, that although the Constitution might be somewhat absurd in theory, it was excellent in practice. Tc keep the Cor.s itution unchatr,etl, was to keep it in such a state as would most contribute to the welfare of the country. In his opinion the tti pounds rent afforded no security for intelligence and education, while it pre sented as many anomalies as existed in the present system. On his own principle, the Noble Lord (J. Russell) did great injustice, and he ought to have recurred to the prin ciple of Earl Grey in 1797, who proposed to give all house holders a right of voting. He saw no one practical benefit to he derived from this measure ; and the Noble Lord had not stated a single particular in which there would be any solid advantage. The Hon. Gentleman then referred to the in inner in which the proposed Reform would apply to the borough of Totne•s, which he represented, arguing that it would introduce evils not now existing there. At pre sent the place was perfectly free and open, without bribery ; hut some of his constituents wrote to him, that after this Bill bad passed—if, indeed, it did obtain the sanction of Parliament—they would do their best to secure his re turn ; but that a great deal must depend upon the decision of the Privy Council on the point of extension, and on the influence which a certain Noble Lord in the neigh bourhood would possess and exercise. Thus the Bill would substitute a patron for perfect freedom from all con troul. He objected also to the unequal justice dealt out. by the measure, disfranchising some boroughs, and pre serving others, which, if the same principle were carried through, ought to share the same fate. According to the population returns, about two-thirds of the boroughs would require that the neighbouring parishes should be included. He resisted the project of the Noble Lotd, because he thought it revolutionary in two senses—that it infused too much of the popular feeling into the composition of the House ; and that when once that change was made, it would lead to others, which, in time, would leave behind scarcely a vestige of the Constitution. Lord STANLEY—Although he might differ upon com paratively minor points; and, notwithstanding the man ner in which it interfered with the interests of individuals and of certain communities, was happy to find that among his constituents at large the Bill had received not only as sent but the warmest approbation.—(Hear, hear.) Many of those, who bad never dared to express an opinion be fore—who had been transferred from hand to hand like so many cattle—wire now beginning to know and understand their rights, and to assert and exercise them.--(Hear, hear.) He apprehended that a very few days would elapse before same Hon. Members who represented boroughs would find calls made upon ther_ such as they had never heard before. A spirit was abroad which would soon make itself audible in Parliament, even to those who were un willing to listen. There were representatives in his county who would be required by their constituents to support Reform, although they had never before taken part in the question. Many and great obstacles stood in the way of Reform ; and when the Noble Lord first broached the subject, more than a week ago, he (Lord Stanley) trembled for the fate of the Bill, fearing that it went too far. He did not mean that in his view it went too f.r in principle, but he feared that by doing too much the Noble Lord would endanger points he could otherwise have secured.—(Hear, hear.) He had now the most cheering and confident hope of the success of the propo sition, and he would tell Hon. Members opposite, not in the way of threat, that their recorded opinions and votes upon this question would not be forgotten by their constituents. The great point to be considered was this, ought the House of Commons-tO ternahr longer an equivo cal assembly, asserting that it represented the people, while the people disowned the House; or ought it really to re present the feelings and wishes of the elective body, ani mated only by a desire to promote the general welfare?— He had the satisfaction of knowing that, from the day when he first entered Parliament to the present hour, he hail never represented a close borough. It might be said that great influence had been used, and whether the fact was or was not so he did not pretend to say : this he knew, that he bad four times represented the same place, and that he had maintained private friendships with many of the individuals he represent - ed. Three times he had had to endure contests, and it could not he said, therefore, that he had been the representative of a borough, where, from the em,Pne.ss of the constituency, opinions were all one way. He had now the happiness to represent one of three of the largest and most populous counties in the kingdom, and, although an alteration was to be made there or else where, he was satisfied that it would be beneficial, and his constituents would rejoice in being able to contribute in any manner to the completion of the plan of Reform. He was glad, also, that the borough he had formerly repre sented would alio be included in the general scheme of amendment. It would give him the greatest pleasure if he could in any way promote the measure. Mr. KEITH DOUGLAS was understood to put some questions to the Noble Lord who introduced the Bill, and to the Lord Advocate, respecting these parts of the Mi nisterial plan of Reform in which Scotland was compre hended, and to complain that Ministers had been forgetful of their duty in coming forward with propositions of such importance to that country, without such explanations as would render their intentions intelligible. Mr. THOMAS DUNCOMBE (Member for Hertford) said that the longer the debate was protracted, the more it became necessary for those Members who had consti tuents to express their opinions. Hitherto two-thirds of the time of the House, during the debate, had been occu pied by Hon. Members who had no constituents.—(Hear, and laughter.)—Those Hon. Members for rotten boroughs —(Laughter)—had said again and again that the people of England were nut desirous of Reform, hut the people of England had given ample contradiction to that assertion in their petitions to the House ; and his (Mr. Duncombe's) constituents had authorised him to thank his Majesty's Mi nisters for the noble and unflinching manner in which they had redeemed their pledges, and opened to the people the prospect of a free representation.—(Cheers.)--They hailed the proposed measure with delight, for they saw in it the destruction of that aristocratical influence which had so long disgraced the House and destroyed the rights of the people. In the presence of his nominees, the Hon. Mem ber who opened the debate, with as much zeal as little reason, had said that he (Mr. Duncombe) was not a good authority. He considered that he could not give a better reason for not oftener addressing the House; and he thought that the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Perceval) could do nothing better than to imitate the example. The Hon. and Learned Member for Boroughbridge had called on Ministers to stand up in their places and defend their measure if they could. But it appeared to him that they had well defended it ; so well, that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman must now be convince that his chat-. to the Ministers might better have been omitted.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) Yet he would imitate the indiscre tion of the Learned Member for Boroughbridge, whom, as the Hon. Member for Colchester had aptly said, he hoped to see in his place as the " Learned Member for Smithfield"—(Great laughter)—and ask that Learned Gentleman—and give him his own time too—to reply to the speech of his Right Hon. Friend the Secretary for Ireland—(Cheers and laughter) —or, if that was too much fur him, be would ask him or any of the gentlemen opposite, to answer the speech of the Lord Advocate if they dare.—(Great cheering.) Imitating the indiscretion of the Learned and expiring Member for Boroughbridge— (Laughter)—he would call upon him to answer that. speech ; and to do so he would give him to the passing of the proposed Bill—(Hear, hear, from Sir C. Wetherell)— " and pass," said Mr. D., " it will"—(Hear, hear, from both sides of the House)—and up to the last moment he would give the Learned Gentleman to answer the admi rable, eloquent, and convincing speech of the Lord Advo cate.—(Cheers.) He feared the answer would be as great a failure as was the reply of the Ex-Secietary of the Ad miralty the other evening.—(Hear.) He did not see the Right Hon. Ex-Seeretary then in his place ; but he would take the liberty of saying that his reply was to the speech which he attempted to answer, as the trash of a certain Sunday newspaper to the eloquence of the Edinburgh critic. (Cheers from both sides.) Never had there been a Bill proposed to-that .House.--under circumstances more auspi ciols, or with reception more promising- For, by whom was it proposed? His Majesty's Government, with the sanction of the Crown.--(Cheers.) Who supported it? The whole nation—(Cheers)—and who were its oppo. nents? None but the rotteraboroughso_(Continued cheer ing.) For that opposition the people and the Ministry musthaVe been prepared.—(flear.) The opposition of the Hon. Members for Wareham and for. Callington, who called the measure a revolution, was a compliment to the Bill.—(Cheers.) Bot did those gentleinansuppose that the country would support them, even if. Ministers were weak enough to retrace their steps and bow to their deci sion ?---(Cheers.) The country had seen the Ministry at tack and take by storm the outworks of corruption, and boldly summon the citadel to a surrender, and was it now to be supposed that they would .desert them? " No, (said Mr. D.) ke' • borough - proprietor., I say unto you, if you do not open your gates to those Ministers of the King and to his people, your obstinacy may for a little postpone our victory, but the weakness of your bars and rottenness of your bolts are such that you cannot prevent it."---(Laughter and cheers.) They had been told *hat there was something like revolution in the . menaced disso lution of that beautiful assembly.—(Laughter.) If it were treason to differ from the opinions of the Learned Member for Boroughhridge and from the Noble Marquis tSe Mernher for Buckingham, then he (Mr. D.) would ph-ad guilty. He sires so great a rebel as to recommend to his Majesty's Ministers (should the 801 be rejected) to dissolve Parliament, and to appeal to the country for fresh support--(Cries of " Oh, oh ! hear, hear," and great laughter)—aud more—he would say at the same time, that the Government would be justified (should they find the dissolution neces , ary), in recommending to the Crown to suspend the writs for the sixty rotten boroughs._ (Great cheering and laughter on both saes.) Upon such a proceeding the unanimous voice of the country would put the stamp of legality.—(Cheers.)--In adopting this the Ministers would secure the thanks and gratitude of the country to themselves and to their Royal Master. He knew that.there was a pat'ty in that House composed of some persons who bad been, arid of some who fain would be, Ministers—(Hear)—who hoped that by turning out the present Administration, they should be enabled to suc ceed to their places.—( Hear, hear, froorathe Opposition.) He asked did they think that there ever would come a time when their anti-reform or sham-reform projects, would be tolerated by the country?—(Cheers.)—Let riot those gentlemen lay the flittering unction to their Tory soula.—(Shouts of laughter.)—Let them not deceive themselves that the country would ever again consent to be governed by their old principles of patronage and cor ruption. As had truly been said by the Noble Lord (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), the time for that Govern ment had gone by. " Endeavour to restore it,. Tory, if y ou can—and the country will set your borough lesisla lotion at defiance; so that nothing but confusion and anarchy will ensue."—(Cheers.)—He hoped, however, that the Legisliture, by adopting in time the efficient, safe, and consoitutignal Reform proposed by the Govern ment, would avert such a crisis.—(Che.re.) Mr. TENANT addressed the House - amidst such con fusion and noise, that we cannot say, with certainty, that he supported the motion, which we supposed him to do, in the few sentences of which we could occasionally catch a word or two. Lord JOHN RUSSELL rose to reply. After a de bate of greater length than, be believed, had ever occurred on any other subject, the time had come in which he might endeavour to explain some of the points in which he had been mistaken in his address to the House at the opening of the discussion. He, in the first place, must express hissu , prise that, in a question of this importance, so interestng to the Constitution, so vital to the future welfare of the country, one-half, if not three-fourths of the speeches against it had been confined, chiefly, to per sonal gibes and taunts—(Clieers from the Ministerial •side)—and to endeavours not to point out any great and essential faults which might be found in such a measure as this, but to accuse some of his Hon. Friends and himself, that in the adjustment of this measure they had considered partial interests.—(Hear.)—He did not expect to hear such an accusation thrown out even to provoke a cheer, or that any Hon. Member could have been liable to the suspicion of pursuing a course so base.—(Hear.)—He did rot expect that he should he suspected of fixing on some paltry and petty course, where relations of his own were concerned, anti that he should have been supposed capable of sinking all his notions of duty, and his feelings of respect to the House, in a project which must have been discovered upon the first appearance of the plan.— (Cheers.)—But if he had not expected this from the House in general, still less did he expect it from his Hon. Friend the Member for Callington (Mr. Baring), with whom he thought he had lived too long in habits of friendship to expect that he would fix upon him a slur of this kind. He should answer in a few words what related to the per sonal part of the objections. They (his Majesty's Mini 7 eters) had taken for their rule the population renifni of 1821. They might have gone a great deal farther. If they had wished to exclude Tavistock, they might, in stead of 168 votes, have removed 260 Members from the House.—(Hear.)—They thought it not advisable to pro pose a measure of suck extent; but as this was a per sonal question, be begged the House to observe, that when they had marked the lipe it eppeared to them to be one not open to cavil. If they had fixed upon 500, or 800, or 1000, what would have still been said if there were a few boroughs spared in which Whigs had some con cern ? If the number of 3,000 had been fixed upon, the objection might be the same. Out of the 25 b 'roughs, only two or three had been selected for animadversion, whilst there were 22 others, with which no person on that side of the House had the remotest connection. He could only say that the subject hail been carefully looked into ; different returns had lai en laid before the Govern ment, and although population returns might be uncertain, they were the most correct documents upon which the measure could be founded. The Hon. Member for Yar mouth (Mr. W. Peel) had compared the returns with a documeat containing an account of the population of Tam. worth ; but would it have been expedient to found an act of that House on the mere letter of a returning officer, without knowing whether it be correct, and when return. ins officers sometimes confessed their totals ignorance of the subject ? The Hon. Member bad compared Tavistock with Tamworth, in respect to the number of houses rated at 101. a-year. But the indirect objects of tax.officers rendered their returns not always a. sale guide. But the Hon. Gentleman, in trying to raise a cheer, after com paring Caine, and Tavistock, and Tamworth, had not no ticed in the second return that the number of houses in Tamworth was 130, and in Tavistock 260. But he laid no stress upon this. He did not pretend to say there were not some errors in the details ; but Ministers had thought it the best way to take all the data out of the returns, making no private inquiries of their own, but con fining themselves to Parliamentary documents, laying the measure open before the House, in order that gentlemen might, by their own information or by documents, prove that the ground was improper to legislate upon. Ministers had thought it a fair basis, and had taken no partial ad vantage, so as to favour any one borough more than an other. But the Hon. Member for Aldborough (Mr. Croker) bad told the House that they had not gone by population, though they had professed that the population returns constituted their codex; that there were certain boroughs containing 4,000 or 5,000 voters, which re. turned more Members than towns containing 14,000 or 15,000. But he (Lord John Russell) hail never intended this as a measure of symmetry, by which the House.was to be reduced to a certain number of Members to each county. Such a plan of Reform might be better.or it might be worse; but it had Doi been intended to go by it. He could tell the Hon. Member that Westminster, with 180,000 inhabitants, returned no more than St. Alban's. or Reading, or othe r pl aces containing not one-tenth of the intoansd ani districts,t s he le anomalyft an itw d . with which.he did not vi p oi o tti p e nur interfere e a rtteiho;enc.aos country e i t a rf t yo u n , ap 3 p 'h o e rt t i t o i n ett b s i u g re to o : ach district a certain number of Persons, might be a great and a wise scheme ; but it h a d not been thought so ; but if the Hon. Members opposite thought. otherwise, let them bring that measure ,forward, and show themselves more extensive Reformers than the present Alinisters— (H„s)—but do not let them put forth mere vague ob pstrioapeerthpelanploesefißnetfornrmea,subruet._to(pHreevaer!)t allT Rheefoßrmigh, jections, not to show that this was not a n adequate and nhseafrodr him the plan.(L r d John H e oRo confessed he gave few reasons; it was, he th oug h t , t an u d on to . Baronet, the Member for Tamw ort h ( S i r Robert. Peel) r n ea o s t O . sufficient to give said any thatt.ge ingenious u h s a d mention the greatevils of which reasonable men complained, and then to produce the plan to speak for itself, as a re medy for those evils.—(Hear.) That it had spoken for itself, was proved by the reception which it had experi enced in all parts of the country.—(Loud cheers.) The plan had been read in the south, the north, and the west, in Scotland and in Ireland, and no fault had been found with the want of ingenious reasons. All were satisfied With the scheme as it stood, because, one after another, the great objects were obtained by the simple use-of com mon sense.—(Hear.) But the Right Hon. Baronet had .read an extract from a speech of his (Lord John Russell's) in 1819 (to which he bad paid an undeserved compliment), wherein he (the Noble Lord) had passed a high encomium upon the Constitution, and had asked how he could re concile that- panegyric with the measure he had now brought forward. It was not - impoi taut to consider whether he had changed his opinion or not, but as the speech had been read, he had referred to it, and he found that he was partly right and partly wrong. With re ference to the working of the Constitution a century aft-r the Revolution, he was right; but in attending to the history of the country in the past century, he had not paid sufficient attention to the wOrking of the Constitution in the present. • . . " From fiction's heights, tvhcie he had Wandered long, He stooped to truth, and moralized his song." . - In 1829, however, he had seated in that House, that with reference to the existing state of the representation and of the government of the country, considering the progress which hail been made by the country in intellect and in wealth, and that the middle clam; bad made so great advances iim knowledge,and importance, and, com paring that wealth, and intellect, and intelligence with the institutions of his count:7, he found ihet the constitution of the House had grown to be on d 4sasiß narrower and . narrower, whereas it ought to rest on a b :s i x broa(ler and broader; and he had stated that if that inequality was not corrected, the growing intellect of the country would soon be dissatisfied ; that it lied appeared that the Members for small boroughs had divided in the proportion of three to.one against every retrenchment and economy; whilst Members for counties bad divided in the Same proportion in favour of enonomy and retrenchment, and having gone through this investigation patienly, he had concluded that a larger Reform was necessary than he had before proposed. Al though there was some egotism in reading a speech of one's own, yet, in order to illustrate his opinion, he would read an extract from the speech he referred to :—" The indiffer ence of the House to the measures I then proposed ha, compelled me to look for others more calculated to insure th e co-operation of the country at large, and to obtain from the House in the gross, that "Reform which they were un willing to effect by gradual and unpretending means." Ile was sorry that the change he then propo ed of addine. 100 Members to the House hail not been sanctioned, for though not altogether calculated to remedy the evil, it would have been a step to a more perfect Reform. The Hon. end Learned Member for Boroughbridge bad said that Ministers wished to introduce a democratic assembly, and make it co-ordinate with the House of Lords and the inn narchy. But there was a fallacy in the words " democratic assembly.'' The Hone and Learned Member implied that this democratic assembly would overthrow the House of Lords and the Crown. But he (Lord J. Russell) dented that this Reform would make a democratic assembly in that sews of the terms. Because Yorkshire, which now send four Members, will in future send six, must they all at once become democrats ? Or if Manchester shall send Members to Parliament, they will be more democratical than those for Liverpool and Bristol ? Fear often conjured up apprehensions which were never realised, as when the Corporation and Test Acts were repealed ; and Catholic emancipation was to be an end of the Constitution. In short, almost every change produced alarm with some— even a change in the Game Laws.—( Hear.) Amongst the mixed objections in this debate, a Gallant Officer, the late Secretary at War, had urged two ; one was, that the measure would take the crown off the King's head ; the other wes, that it would give too many Members to the county of Durham.—(Hear.) As to raking the crown off the King's head, he thought the House might safely leave his Majesty to the protection of the people.—(Loud cheers.) Hon. Gentlemen who spoke will so much vehemence in favour of boroughs were mistaken in supposing' that boroughs formed ramparts for the protection of the throne. —(Hear.) It was not by such rotten and decayed timbers that the" throne was supported. The boroughs had much greater influence in advising the Crown, and were calculated not no increase the loyalty of the country, but to diminish it. The Crown would be more secure, and the throne more firm by being placed upon the affections of the people. They were the fittest guardians to maintain the in stitutions of the country. What might be suited to other times were to fit for the present, and the sooner the vicious parts of the system were cut off, the more would the people be disposed to look at it with that respect and reverence which the people. of a free country should enter tain far those institutions by which they were gamded.— But they had been told that it would be impossible for the Government of this country to be carried on if there were no boroughs by means of which Me - others of the Govern ment could find seats in that House. He thought that this was a very great mistake, and though be admitted that boroughs were a convenience to tile Members of the Government, yet he thought that they were merely a con venience, nothing more.--(Hear, hear.)—When a gen tleman took upon him an office of State, to which labo rious duties were attached, it was doubtless convenient to such a gentleman that he should have no constituents, for then he was relieved from what would otherwise form no inconsiderable addition to his occupations—the care of the interests of constituents. He was sure, however, that there was no foundation for the supposition, that because gentlemen happened to be Members of an Administration, they would be rejected by every large body of constituents. The University of Cambridge was represented by Mr. Pitt. the town of Liverpool by M. Canning, and the county of Down by Lord Castlereagh, for a very considerable pe riod, and he believed that they might all of them have re tained their seats for those places if they had chose. He was certain, too, that if the Right lion. Baronet opposite (Sir R. Peel), the Member for Tamwoith, had stood for Liverpool, or for any large manufacturing district with which he might happen to be connected, the people to whom he presented himself as a candidate for their suf frages would gladly have availed themselves of his valuable services. —(Hear, hear.)—ln a word, then, he admitted that they might at first be subjected to this, and perhaps to some other inconveniences; but he contended that they ware mere inconveniences, and he supposed that no Hon. Gentleman would expect that great benefits were to be at tained without some trifling inconveniences. —(Hear.) He was convinced that these inconveniences would be largely counterbalanced by benefits, and though the former had been loudly sounded in this debate, yet he was confi dent that they would be found of very little weight in the practical working of the plan.---( Hear, bear.) Again, much had been said by the gentlemen opposite about in , timidaCon ; what, however, would these gentlemen say to these words of Lord Chatham—." If the House will not reform itself within, it will be reformed with a vengeance from without."—(Loud and continued cheering.) Had h e , or had any gentleman on his side the House, said any thing half so strong as this? and yet these words of Lord Chatham bad been perpetually quoted in debates in that House, without the gentlemen who quoted them being found any fault at all with. But he would read to the House a passage from the speeches of Mr. Burk e , who had been so much cried up as the patron of these aristocratic institutions, the protector of that House against the de mands of the people for Reform. This was the language upon. us ; and let us not d ece i ve t h e nat i on, l o e f ng A t l h r. c tu t rke :—" The whole hope of reformation is at which - does us the honour to hope every thing from our virtue. If all the nation are not equally forward to press this duty upon us, yet be assured that they will equally expect we should perform it. The respectful silence of thoie who 'wait upon your pleasure, ought to be as power ful with you as the call of those who require your service a Some, without doors, a ff ec t t o f ee l h urt fors t 1 because they suppose that menaces are huhd out to you. ;itr your right ciign . ity, Justify their good opinion by show ing that no menaces are necessary to stimulate you to your duty. But, Sir, whilst we may sympathise with them, in One point, who: sympathise with us in another, we ought to attend no : less-to those who approach us like men ,and who, in-the guise of petitioners, speak to us in the tone of a concealed authority. It is not wise to force them to speak out inoie plainly what they plainly mean. But the petitioners are violent. Be it so. Those who are least anxious about your conduct are not those who love you most. Moderate affection, and satiated enjoy ment, are cold and respectful ; but an ardent and injured p assion. is tempered up with wrath and grief, and shame, and conscious worth, and the maddening sense of violated right. A jealous love lights his torch from time fire. brands of the furies. They who call upon you to belong w holly to the people, are those who wish you to return to your proper home—to the sphere of your duty, to the post of your honour, to the mansion-house of all genuine, serene, and solid satisfaction. We have furnished to the people of England (indeed we have) some real cause of jealousy." * * * " Let us return to our legi timate home, and all jams and all quarrels will be lost in embraces. Let the Commons in Parliament assembled be one and the same thing with the commons at large."— Such was the manner in which Mr. Burke disposed of the theOrY, so popular ,among the gentlemen opposite—that this House ought not to be the representative body of the people,• but something better ; that it ought to have no connection with the commons at large, and that it was Much better constituted without such connection. --(Continued cheering.)—A few more words from this speech of Mr. - Burke :—" The distinctions that are made to separate us are unnatural and wicked contriv ances. Let us identify—let us incorporate ourselves with the people. Let us cut all the cables and snap the chains which tie us to an unfaithful shore, and enter the friendly harbour that shoots far out into the main it moles and jetties to receive us. ' War with the world, and peace with our constituents.'" These were the words of Mr. Burke, and which the people too, at that time, thought would be a sufficient remedy for the evils they complained of. All the exertions of Mr. Burke, however, all that he was enabled to effect, - could not prevent the hydra, though mutilated, from raising his heads again. Where one extravagant abuse hail been lopped off, ten more had risen in its stead.—(Hears) --The people now looked for another and a more effectual species of Reform. The people thought, and in his opinion they thought reason ably, that they had found such a Reform in the reforma tion in that House, whose peculiar province it was to rote the public money—(Cheers)—such a reformation as would make the House a vigilant gusrlian of the public purse, and - of tare public interests.--(Cheers.).—The peopl e , therefore, would no lunge: he contented with a Reform in places, and colicee, and prison'-os(Hear, hear)—but de manded such a Reform as would render it necessary fir them to trouble themselves foe the future with ituririee as to whether this office or that office was abelished,-a whether this salary or that s:ahatly was reduced,—which, lie s aid, would render these inquiries tsnnecessery, by give ing them each a state of representation as wentld enable them safely Co dee-ere] upon their representatives for to;sine carts that wh re an office e'its useless it sheathl be abolished - —when a salary was too. large if :hould be retrenched—e seder's ere arata.eetat was unnecessary it ehoull not be made—and when a law was operessive it esat be passed.—(users.)—li i st 1e...-"ieved there was oily ode point more to which it would .1s neeessary for him to allude. The Right Hon. Baronet opposite, the Member for Tateiworela had been plsased to 'egret, laiestly on his own account, p artly on their (the Mir.islers") account,. and partly on account a the fee:lnlay, that the Government had not postponed the queetien of Recesran, or, in the alter native, tl:,t the Government had not propottesl some mea sure of moderate ,fe.ferna, against which no Yee:isolable I objections could have been tereeed.—(Hear, liar.) Hy this species of Reform, he supposed That the Right Hon. Baronet meant a Reform, of which the diefrenchieement of certain boroughs would not form a part, and 'rebid' would not confer any greet extension of tOe elective fran chise. The Right Hon. Haronet hail said, that the Go• I vernment would have been aide to tete pissed such a I Measure through the two Houses of Parlia - neet without difficulty or danger. No doubt they might : hut if the Government had taken this cote ete,—though they would have avoided much trouble and oppositissee—though they might have conciliated a vast mejerity of that Pouse, and be -n carried with triumphant success theoueh the f!eese sion,—yet allow. him to amyl that they would at the same time have prepared many and great- evils for the at large._(Much cheering.) The Hon. Member for Cal lington had said, " It a strange thing that, eurnehow or other, our institutions do not work well : there is ear taiuly a something in them which requires amendment, but I confess that I cannot teii what that something is." Novo this might be very well for a. critic of the Constitution; but let him tell the Hon. Member for Cal lington, that it would not do for responsible advisers of the and servants of the public.—(Cheere.)— It would not do for them to exclaim, when they saw thing,' going wrong, " It's a very strange thing that our institutions won't work well."—(Cheers and laughter.) It weal not do far them to admit that something required amendment, to process their ignorance of what that something was, and then let the matter seep.—(Cheers.) No; it was their duty to endeavour with all their heart, with all their soul, and with all their mind, to find out what was wrong, to apply the proper remedy, and to make things go better.—(Cheers.) He thought that there was a greater evil, and one that per vaded tie whole country, than the construction of that House. The evil to which be referred was, that there had been for several years past in the country a want of con fidence—a growing want of confidence—in public men— (Cheers) --that the people had fallen into the habit of se parating themselves into parties, sects, classes, and unions, proposing their own remedies for the evils of which they conaplamed, and seeking to attain those remedies without looking to any party in that House; and all this, in con sequence of their imperfect reliance upon those who were called the representatives of the people.—(Cheers.) Now, he much feared that if this state of things were to be suf fered to continue, it must end in a separation between the constituted authorities of the realm and the great mass of the weight and intelligence of the country.—(Hear, hear) What, then: would his Majesty's Ministers have done, in this condition of circumstance., by proposing a half and incomplete measure, but confirmed that distrust, and rooted for ever that want of confidence which he was sure every one would admit to be pregnant with the most dan gerous consequences.—(Cheers.) If the Ministers had done this, they might have gone on for a time in triumph, buoyed up by the applause and support of those whose personal interests they had consulted ; but this state of things could not have lasted, it would have been impossible for them to have gone on long with out the confidence and support of the nation.—(Cheers.) And suppose that he and his Right Hon. Colleagues were re moved, did the gentlemen opposite think that they could maintain their ground in office, and persist in denying Reform ?—(Clieers. ) They could not etrertain a suppo sition so vain. On the one hand, there would be want of confidence in them (the present Ministers), who would not only have denied the people, but basely betrayed them. (Much cheering.) While on the other hand, there could surely be no confidence in their successors, who persisted, with honesty he was ready to admit, but certainly with a degree of obstinacy which precluded all hope, in resisting those measures upon which the people had set their hearts (Cheers.) And to what condition would they then have reduced themselves 2—( Hear, hear.) They would no longer have it in their power to settle Reform upon a mo derate scale, which should give equal representation to all the interests of the country, but they would have forced upon them such a Reform as might properly be called a revolution—osuch a Reform as they could not resist, and which they would be compelled to submit to as to the law of the conqueror.—(Much cheering.) Let him not be idly told that they would resist still. He had heard men go on for years with these threats of resistance—he had heard men say that they had taken their stand upon constitutional ground, which they would never abandon, and yet he had seen those very men driven to the necessity, ; not only of laying aside those threats of resistance, not only retreating from the high ground they had assumed and declared they would for ever maintain, but even coming forward and proposing them selves those very measures which they had so frequently, so resolutely, and for so long a series of' years protested against.—(Cheers.) He had seen enough of the bad eon sequences of yielding to fear, not to be deeply impressed with the truth, that by far the wisest course was to do more than was expected from you—(Hear, hear, on both sides)—to do what was just and -reasonable without being urged to do it—(Cheers)--to profit by the seasonable time of doing that, which, if so done, would be received with gratitude and respect, but which, if deferred till it was not . possible to defer it any longer, would be received with thanklessness at- least, if not with contempt—(Loud and continued cheering.) The gentlemen opposite said that they would not be intimidated: but to what did this language amount when coupled with the qualification by which kilted not been unaccompanied in the Hon. Gentle men's speeches? It amounted to this, and this only— " We will not be intimidated to-day--(Much cheering)— we see no reason for a Reform at present ; wait another year, and then, if the demands become louder, and more serums, and we see that resistance is really of no avail, why, then, we suppose we must yield."—(Much cheering.) Such, he contended, was the result of the speeches of the Hon. Gentlemen opposite. But those gentlemen talked of Mr. Canning and Mr. Huskisson. Now:he happened to know that both Mr. Canning and Mr. Huskisson, though it was true they had always opposed Reform, were nevertheless of opi nion that Reform would be carried before many years had elapsed.—( Hear, hear.)—lt was only last year that he had shown to Mr. Huskisson, at the bar yonder, the resolu tions which he intended to propose on the subject of Re form, and after reading them Mr. Huskisson said, " I can not support these - resolutions ; but I have no doubt that before long, something of the kind will be carried in Par liament."—(Cheers.)—lf such had beeq the ()Onions of wise and enlightened men, why, let him ask, should they wait any longer? Why continue to resist that which could not be ultimately averted ?—(Cheers.) If Reform were to be carried, let it be carried now,—let them do that now with a good grace, which they must do at last with a bad grace,—let them sacrifice their prejudices and raise to themselves an altar for the sacrifice in the affec tionshe en ) md—pLbayet patriotic oh t te l c e them imitate ekne, o andf N o t — l e y en l ( i example f Nor folk, lk andof t bwhichtheipwelead t people.—(Cheers.)—Let let them be assured th a t th ere was not hi ng mean , or b ase , or C h s e le' r eet al l-tgl a ; cowardly, in sacrificing their personal interests for the sake of establishing future peace and harmony in the country, and giving.full, and, he hoped, long enduring satisfaction to the people.—(The Noble Lord, sat down ' amidst loud and long-cOntinued cheering.) The SPEAKER then put the question, " That leave be given to brine in a Bill to amend the representation of the people in England and Wales." The 'motion was agreed to. The." Ayes" were shouted in louder voices than we ever before heard in the House of Commons; while the "Noes" were only three in number; one very loud, but the other two very dispirited and low. Lord J. RUSSELL then moved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the representation of the people in Scotland. Sir G. CLERK protested against such a motion at so late an hour of the night.--(Cries of " Oh, oh.")—No part of this measure bad been explained to the House.— (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The LORD. AD VOCATE thought that the Noble Lord sufficiently opened the 'general outline of the measure iu r his iettioluetory spceeb. Ile ever, if the Home thouteht differentiv, he should be able t o sopply any otnissireus which the Noble Lord might be supp ose d to have inn,le, ill a very few sentences. While the borough representation in I.: T o m ,' w a s diminished, that in Scotland was increased l;> the proposed plan. . This was an apparent difference in rue plices for the two countries; : but the difference ex isted only in appearance. The plans were coinci-lents. and the pritteipleg of them were id,nti :ally' the same. In Scot- • land there were thirty county Members,. and fifteen rough Mt mbirs. It was proposed th it the county ',Wein berg should be reduced be tern. It wilF proposed that Scotland, instead of returning forty-five Members, eboodl sat futtire return fifty, and that of these, twantystwo Ire returned front horoinehs. The mode of getting a fair representation for Scotland was, to unite the•small counties with the lare. The population of Peeblea and Selkirk did not exceed 17 000 souls, and it was justifiable to unite such trsnties, in order to make up an aggregate population for the purposes of representation, which might be in some . proportion tr; the general representative system. By the • new plan, all who were qualified would have a vote, and • none could have had mare under the old system. The wealth of Scotland consisted in commercial towns; of re cent growth, and the view of Government was to divide the allocations. According to the Union, the city of Edinburgh had the privilege of returning one Member. Glat.'gow was now the third city of the empire, supporting the interests of half a million of men, and therefore two Members were attribund to it; Paisley was a rival to Glasgow, with 50,000 souls, and therefore one Member ' was given to it. On the same principho Aberdeen, Gree nock, rand Leith were to have one Member each. The ne w system of Scotland was made to assimilate to what had always been considered the most perfect part of the English system—the county representation. The qualifi catiren i n Scotland was to be 10/. a year for a voter, and 500/. a year for a seat in the House for a county Member. Arrangements had been made to take the votes in conve nient places, so that no more than two day:. might be con- council in the election ; and a provision had been intro shaved into the measure, to dissallow votes to be taken in . county elections for the same - property as gave the right of voting in burghs. He was :aware that at that time of the night he must be brief in his observations; but he hoped his explanation would be sufficient to show that no rea sonable objection could be offered to the motion of the Noble Lord for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the re presentation of Scotland. Sir W. RAE did not think the Learned Lord's expla nation perfectly satisfactory. He could see no good rea son why, when additional tnernbers were given to the , English counties, not only no additional members were given to the Scotch counties, but two of the county mem bers were triton away and given to the burghs. Since Government had adopted the rule of joining counties to gether, he was surprised that it had not been regularly followed out ; and that Kinross had not been added to - Fife, and Clackmannan to Stirling. What was the rea son, he should like to know, that the county of Caith ness, which was formerly joined with the county of Bute, was now, for the first time, to have the right of sending one Member to Parliament ? Why was it not added to the county of Sutherland ? The Hon. Gentlemen oppo site had declared that one of their objects in bringing for ward the present measure of Refocus was to get rid of the nomination by Kers of members of that House. He was not one who would wish to see the influence of Peer, destroyed, which depended- on their large property to d the benefits which they conferred on their in'eriors. Bt:t if Caithness had been added to Sutherland, the influence which a noble family exercised in the return of a Member for the latter county would have been neutralized ; and the Hon. Gentlemen opposite ought, therefore, to have joined those two counties, in order to be consistent with their own professions. lie objected entirely to the Bill, be cause it went to change the whole system of repre•enn lion in Scotland. That system, had, as yet, worked well ; and he believed their was not an instance, of any person being a representative of a Scotch county, who had not a real interest in the laud. If may change were thought necessary to be made in the eective franchise, the right of voting should have been confined to the actual propneters of land, and the mere occupiers of houses ought not to have been introduced. The LORD ADVOCATE stated that it was not the mere occupiers, but the owners of houses who had the right of voting. Sir WILLIAM RAE said, that the occupiers were al most universally the owners of houses in Scotland, for that very few were held on leasehold ; and, therefore, the pre position would have the effect of tiking the right of send ing Members to Parli anent out of the hands of the landed interest. No complaint could be made against the present system on the score of expense, because the representatives of counties never expended any money except what they paid out for the purpose of entertaining the electors alter the election. No explanation had been given by the Learned Lord why five boroughs of the eastern part of Fife should lie disfranchised, and the right of voting taken from 6,000 persons. He agreed with the Learned Lord that no • Scotchman could object to the granting of representatives to Edinburgh and Glasgow ; but he (Sir W. Rae) wished to know, why, if Leith wds to have a Member, the flourishing town of Inverness, with a population of 20,000, was not to he allowed one. He supposed that when the Learned Lord talked of giving a Member to Edinburgh, that the Learned Lord meant that city and its sulmueii, If that were the case,• voters to the number of 12,900 would he admitted. What, then, would be the boasted advantage, what the value to the shopkeeper of Edin burgh, of sharing a vote among so large a number of per sons? He conceived that time proposed alteration would lead to touch bribery, disorder, and perhaps bloodshed. The Learned Lord opposite had some knowledge of the • stormy nature of elections in Scotland. If once Scotch men were brought together on those occasions, it was a rare circumstance when their meeting did not end in fatal con sequences.—(" No, no.") Ile asked Scotch lembers whether that was not the general rule? • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it • was reasonable that the plan should be explamd, and that the observations of the Learned Gentleman (Sir IV. Rae) upon it should be heard ; but this haring t I ken place, he trusted there would be no objection to the Bill bring now introduced. The piers would go to Scotland, accompanied by the Learned Gentleman's objections, and thus the en tire scheme would be understood and canvassed in that country. Ile hoped that this would be considered suf ficient at present, and that gentlemen (several having risen to address the House at the close of Sir W. Rae's speech) would defer their remarks upon the Bill till the second reading, when the discussion could be taken. It would be extremely inconvenient to go into a debate on the plan at this hour of the right. Sir C. FORBES hegged to ask the Noble Lord whether he thought it reasonable that the Reform Bill affecting this country should be debated seven days on the motion for its introduction, and that which applied to Scotland should be disposed of in the same stage in an hour? He sug gested the propriety of the debate on the first reading of the Bill beirig adjourned till to-morrow. He might here observe, that the Lord Advocate's speech was any thing rather than satisfactory. Mr. KENNEDY said his lion. Friend opposite (Sir C. Forbes) could confer no greater benefit on his country men than by allowing the Bill to go forth to the public in an accurate shape, with as little delay as possible. This object would be effected by offering no opposition to the first reading. Mr. C. FERGUSSON thought that an adjournment of the discussion not unreasonable, if any gentleman con nected with Scotland wished to offer their opinions on the Bill even in the first stage. Sir C. FORBES rose to move the adjournment of the debate, but gave way to _ _ _ Lord JOHN RUSSELL, who expressed a hope that gentlemen would consent to take the discussion on the se cond reading, which might be fixed for Monday or Tuesday. After an observation from Me. Jon ssrosrx, Sir G. CLERK recommended the Hon. Baronet to ac cede to the Noble Lord's proposition. Sir G. WARRENDER wished the discussion to be de ferred till the Bill should be pridted. Leave was then eiv.-n to bring in the B;P. REFORM BILL—IRELAND. Lord J. RUSSELL moved that leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the representation in Ireland. Mr. RUTHVEN said he had no wish to enibtrrass the Government by expressing his objections to that part of the measure affecting Ireland upon the occasion of the re cent debate, but he would now Say, that in order to af ford Ireland substan tial j usti ce, she should have, instead of three new Members, 32. After a desultory conversation, in which Mr. 'ACADIA, Mr. Wysa, and Mr. A. DAWSON took part, leave was given to bring in the Bill, it being understood that the Scotch and Irish Reforms Bill would nut be discussed on the satne day. The Calico Duty Repeal Bill was reported, and the Bill ordered to be read a third time to-morrow. Lord DUNCANNON gave notice that he would on Friday next move for leave to bring in a Bill for opening a new street between Waterloo-bridge and Charles-street, Covent-garden. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL presented a petition from Nottingham, in favour of the plan of .Reform which bad been submitted to the House by bis Alsivetql e itt n ster:and another having a aina il e r prayer. f students of the inns of Court.-Adiourned Three o'cioek.