The Sun. — London, England, 1833-04-03 00:00:00

SPIRIT OF THE PUBLIC JOURNALS. Lord Althorp last Aght proposed the resolutions on Irish Church Reform, preliminary to his Bill on the same impo r t ant su bj ec t. S ym p toms o f opposi tion were soon manifested, but not in a very de cided form. We would recommend, however, to Lord Althorp to put his resisting as well. as con ciliatory faculties on the alert. Mr. Hume's motion for abolishing flogging was supported by several of the military members. Indeed, it does seem mon strous that Parliament should be called upon to sanction the principle that the discipline of " a British army" cannot be maintained without this brutalizing punishment. It is known that the best regiments and best ships are never degraded by wit nessing the infliction of the whip. What is possible in one regiment or vessel is possible in all; but the " cat" is an easy substitute for moral vigilance and personal attention. If men in command would exer cise greater care, and insist upon. the faithful dis charge of duty among their subordinate officers, the bad habits of tile soldier would not grow to that inveterate degree of malignity which is admitted by the supporters (for their can be no friends) of such a system to be its only justification. If the officer whose company is disgraced by what he may call the necessity of suck.a., punishment be put at once on his defence on acharge of neglect of discipline, a tew months will remove from the British army the foul reproach tnat,'-thqugh it is the bravest body in the world, it cannot managed except by the methods only occasionally, applied to the most mis chievous portion of the brute creation. Sir F. Burdett zealously supported Mr. Hume, and the rational arguments of these .sand other Hon. Gen tlemen prevailed so far that the' n 'ip ja ority against the motinm consisted of but eleven Members.—Times. The report of the poor law commissioners was brought up last night by Lord Althorp, and the pe rusal of the evidence has frightened Mr. O'Connell to such a degree, that he has again abandoned his intention of proposing poor laws for Ireland. " Among all the misfortunes of his unhappy country (said Mr. O'C.), it had still the consolation of having hitherto avoided the poor laws." Strange that a man can pass through England, and witness the condition of the people, and yet allow himself to be persuaded by the statements of others, that there is any comparison between the evils produced by abuses of the poor laws in England, and the evils produced by the total abandonment of the poor in Ireland ! The console , ion, indeed! . It may be a consolation to a landholderlikethe Earl of Limerick, a stanch opponent of poor laws, who possesses 20.0001. a year, and has never, we .are informed, contributed 100/. to the support of the poor. A consolation to the Earl of Wicklow, an other opponent of boor laws, who, according to the statement of Mr. Henry Grattan, though Lord Lieutenant of the county of Wicklow, does not Contribute as much to the_support of the poor, as he (Mr. G.) does for a few acres he possesses in Surrey ! But what is it to the great body of the People compelled to compete for partitions of land ? 4 . Whoever," said Mr. H. Grattan, " had witnessed the frightful state of misery and disease in Ireland must, if he were possessed of any feelings of huma nity, advocate the introduction of poor laws there. In the great streets of Dublin, the number and condi tion of the poor was frightful; so urgent was their distress, that they were not content with merely ask ing casual charity, but they might be seen knocking with double or treble knocks at the great people's houses, and when the door is opened thrusting in and demanding sustenance for themselves and their starving children." Strange that persons of the least reflection, with the evidence staring them in the face of the comparative prosperity of England (for after all, in physical comforts the mass of the people of England enjoy a superiority over the people of any other country in Europe), and knowing that England .has been two cemnries and a half subject to the present system of poor laws, should yet attri bute to these laws the most ruinous effects ! If poor laws are ruinons to a country, whence the prosperity of. England ? But it will be said that England has prospered in spite of her poor laws. But it is a contradiction in terms to suppose any system of a ruinous tendency affecting the great body of the people, should allow, during two centu ries and a half, of the existence of continued prospe rity. We are no advocates for the abuses of the English system, which were introduced with so many other abuses under the empirical administration of Mr. Pitt, who entertained opinions with respect to the poor sufficient to ruin any country. He was wild enough to talk of giving bounties to encourage the poor to have large families. But there is no danger of Irish squires falling into the error of the Norfolk and other squires, who introduced the al lowance system. No man thinks of opening a door for the English abuses in Ireland. The condition of the Irish poor in Dublin was described last night by Mr. Henry Grattan. But the poverty of Dublin is prosperity compared with what is to be found elsewhere. The Dublin Evening Post, of Saturday last, quotes, from an Essay on Malignant Cholera, by Surgeon M•Coy, in the last number of the Dublin Medical Journal, a description of the condition of the people of the North of Ireland, where he was for some weeks in charge of two dis tricts afflicted with cholera, by desire of the Central Board of Health, which is absolutely appalling. " I found (he says) a population exist ing in a state of poverty hardly to be credited by those who have not witnessed it. Most of the pea santry living in huts, the thatched roofs of marry of which gave as free entrance to the frequent showers as their unglazed windows admitted the cold air of an inclement December—their food but a few po tatoes and some salt, for a'scanty morning and even ing meal. They were very much alarmed at the presence of the disease among them. This fear occasioned me to be sent for in many tiifling stomach and bowel complaints; and an opinion may be formed of their wretchedness from the cause as signed for most of these occurring on the 25th of December and two or three following days—namely, the eating of a little flesh meat on Christmas Day by those who had not touched animal food for twelve months before ! Unwholesome straw, damp earthen Soars, steaming mud walls, stinted fuel, and uncleanliness, appeared to invite disease," &c. These, be it remarked, are not insulated cases—the description applies to • the whole peasantry of the country. Compare these people—who, according to Mr. M'Coy, were so weak, that they could not bear the proper medicines—with the sturdy, bacon fed peasantry Of England So long as the peasantry of Ireland are abandoned in this manner, and the whole produce is taken by the landlords, there can be- no improvement. Predial and other agitation must reign triumphant, and England will be com pelled to keep thepeace !—Morning Chronicle. The Bill for the Suppression of Disturbances in Ireland received the Royal Assent yesterday, and is now the law of the land. Will it be sufficient for its purpose ? or will still leave Ireland in the same state of subjection to lawless violence and jesuitical agitation in which it has so long dragged on a fever ish and wretched existence ? In the former case the present Ministers of the Crown will be proved to have been six weeks .ago tyrants grasping at un constitutional powers, for the assumption of which there existed no necessity. In the latter the more disgraceful stigma will be fixed upon them of having acted the part of drivellers, in the rejection of powers with which the public welfare and safety required them to be invested, and with which a large majo rity of both Houses of the Legislature was ready to invest them. The practical operation of this mea sure will be watched with deep anxiety, on account of the permanent interests of the empire which it involves; but it will be watched also with conside rable euriosity, as a meant of estimating the character of the present Administration. The result must throw much light upon the following interesting questions ; e -- Were the Kings Ministers actuated by the spirit of despotism. in the House of. Lords at the commentement of the session ? Were they the abject slaves of popularity in- the House of Com mons during its progress ? Or were they in the honourable- predicarnent in both'instances alike of not\ittilswing what - additional powers, they requi?ed and not caring what additional poweritshould be p u t into their hands? We are willing to n- believe that this measure of coercion, although much less severe than Earl Grey and his colleagues desired until they found r hat extreme coercion would be fatal to their popularity, and that their friends of the •political unions, thinking it might be their turn next, had taken the alarm—we are willing, we say, to believe that this mitigated measure may be productive, at least for a time, in Ireland, of comparative peace, order, and security; and it is a question of the highest importance how such an occasional, and temporary, and partial diminution of agitation, and the crimes of which agitation is the parent, may be improved to the best advantage— may be made the occasion of introducing a spirit of habitual, permanent, and unconstrained reverence for the laws—may be so employed as to effect a change in the character, habits, and condi tion of the population of Ireland, so complete as to impart to that country the capacity and the title to enjoy for the future, without stint or interruption, the full and entire blessings of the British Consti tution. The immediate establishment in Ireland of a legal provision for the poor out of the produce of the land is a measure imperiously prescribed by the most obvious considerations of justice, policy, and humanity. A people subject to periodical visita tions of famine are far beyond the reach of laws and institutions. It is evidently one of the necessary results of their situation that among such a people desperation of character and lawlessness of habits should be indigenous. For them so long as the es sential preliminary of a secure supply of the means - o f life to the great bulk of the population is neg lected the wisdom of ten thousand Solons would le gislate in vain. The Irish people must be fed and taught, but first they must be fed; that is,the necessary food of every man in the land must be made secure.lt is a fixed and unalterable law of human society that civilization should descend from the higher classes of society to the lower. But, by withholding from Ireland a legal provision for the poor, we effectually intercept this benign communication. In Ireland, in consequence of the absence of a poor law, the class who possess the land have, as a whole, a direct ;interest, not in the comfort, happiness, intelli gence, and morality of the class who till it, but 'in their degradation, ignorance, and misery. The more debased the tenantry, the higher the net rental. Thus the Irish landlord has nothing to do but to keep his person out of the reach of the degraded and wretched beings who cultivate his land; and so long as their misery, ignorance, and vice are nor, by means of a poor law, made to re-act upon the amount of proceeds from his estate, and so long as the public force of the empire can, by means of coercive laws be brought to bear npon them when ever they become more desperate than usual, the more miserable, ignorant, and vicious they are, it is so much the better for him ; he can keep the better stud at Newmarket, or decorate his favourite dun seuse with gems of greater brilliancy and value. a his lays on the surface; and how many landlords there are, not of Ireland only, but of every country, who do not trouble themselves to look deeper. Evident, however, as it seems, this is no bet ter than a pro digal and thoughtless delusion, which it is the duty of the State to correct by the speediest and most effectual means. The source of imaginary wealth which consists of the misery and degradation of a people may stimulate and does stimulate the cupidity of individuals, or what is equally pernicious in its effects, may lull them into indifference ; it yields, however, no increase to the general riches of the community, but is, on the contrary,the most power ful impediment to their growth and accumulation. If the poor are not fed by law, they will be fed it, defiance of law. If the land is not made to yield food to the whole community in exchange for labour, it is always made to yield food in exchange for vio lence and crime by that part of the community whose claims and interests have been overlooked In the latter rase the outlay is greater than in the former, with the further disadvantage that it is expended, not to improve the security and value of the general stock, but to impair both. It is then plainly the duty of Government to establish some general and permanent system for the employ ment and maintenance of the poor of Ireland. But all will not then be done which the condition of that country requires. If the strong measure of coercion which the Legislature has adapted in order to calm agitation anti to repress outrage in Ireland he at tended with any degree of success, it will afford a favourable opportunity, which we trust will not be neglected, for a strenuous endeavour to redeem the infatuated, ignorant, and wretched people of that country from the dominion of Popery, to which more than to any other causes put together—its vices and its misery are justly to be ascribed. It were vain to hope that this task will be undertaken by, or receive the countenance of, Government. Modern liberality repudiates the duty of converting nations from errors in religion, however complete may be the proof that the errors are such as have always contributed to disturb the peace, derange the organization, pollute the purity, and poison the happiness, of civil society. But the Protestants of Ireland, and-many also, we trust, of the Protestants of England, are sufficiently conscientious and un fashionable to acknowledge that to diffuse true re ligion and to eradicate that which is false, to diffuse that religion which renders men peaceable, indus trious, reflecting, and useful members of society, arid to abolish that which makes men the mere slaves and tools of a factious and self-interested priesthood, is an enterprise which they are bound strenuously to pursue whenever an opportunity is afforded them. It is an enterprise which the pa triotic Protestants of Ireland ought never to desert for a moment, however they may be discountenanced by authority. Its complete success is an essential condition to the permanent welfare of their country. In the pursuit of such objects persecution even should be despised. But we do not know that at present there is much reason to apprehend that Protestant missionaries faithfully discharging their duty would be sent to prison under the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act; and, as the military courts under the new Bill are only to administer the existing law, from them there is evidently no thing to fear.—Morning Post. COURT CIRCULAR. Prince TALLYERAND and the Belgian and Dutch Mi nisters visited Viscount PALMERSTON yesterday at the Foreign-office. Colonel LEITH HAY, M.P., and Mr. JAMES OSWALD, M.P., headed a numerous deputation, principally com posed of Members of Part.ament. The deputation had a conference with Viscount ALTHORP yesterday at the Treasury respecting the Factory Bill. The Hanoverian Minister had an interview with Viscount PALMERSTON, yesterd iy at the office of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. Sir JAMES GRAHAM and Lord JOHN RUSSELL visited Viscount ALTHORP yesterday. . . . . Viscounts GODERICH and PALMERSTON had interviews with Earl GREY on Monday at the Treasury. The Duke of DEVONSHIRE left town yesterday for his residence at Kemp-town, Brighton. LIVERPOOL COTTON MARKET, MONDAY, APRIL 1.-The business in cotton to-day is principally in American descriptions, from 68d. to Bd., to the extent of 1,000 bales. The Home Secretary has appointed this day to inve4tigate a serious charge against persons connected with Union-ball Police-office, of having carried on for some time a system of extortion from licensed victuallers. It is said eight on the establishment will be dismissed from their situations, and that the vacancies will be sup plied by the police of the A division. . . . . SHIP-BUILDING.—At no period these many years hack has the ship-building business, on the banks of the Clyde, been brisker than at present. There are about 20 vessels on the stocks, at Slip-duck, Dum barton, Port Glasgow, and Greenock ; among which are three or four steamers of immense size, destined to ply on English stations. A number of the steamers navigating the Clyde, are also under repairs at present, and are in comae of receiving on board boilers of a novel and inge nious construction, by which, it is calculated, that an in creased 'facility of transmission of goods and passengers trill be obtained.--Greenock Znielligencer. TVIPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF OF COMMONS, APRIL 2. The SPEAKER took the Chair soon after five o'clock. A' person from the Office of the Chamberlain of Lon don presented +coon/its of the Orphan's Fund. SOUTHAMPTON ELECTION. Lord ROBERT GROSVENOR brought up the report of the Select Committee appointed to try the merits of the petition against the return of James Barlow Hoy, Esq. for the borough of Southampton. The Committee reported that Junes Ballow Iloy, Esq., was not duly elected, and that John Storey Penleaz-, Esq., was duly elected for that borough, and that neither the petition nor the oppo sition to it had been either frivolous or vexatious. The Clerk of the Crown was ordered to attend to morrow to amend the return. HERTFORD ELECTION. Mr. BERNAL brought up the report of the said Com mittee appointed to try the merits of the petition against the return of Lord Ingestrie and Lord Mahon for the town of Hertford. He wis directed by the Committee to re port to the House that Lords Ingestrie and Mahon had not been duly elected and returned for that borough at the last election, and that the petitions of Thomas Sling shy Duncombe, Esq., and John Eden Spalding, Esq., and the opposition thereto were not frivolous or vexatious.. Mr. BERNAL was also directed by the Committee to report to the House that that Committee had come to the followtng resolution:—" It appears to this Committee that bribery and treating prevailed previously and during the late election for the said borough." Mr. BERNAL then moved that the minutes of the proceedings and evidence before that Committee shout.' he laid before the House.—Agreed to. The Hon. Member also moved that no writ slit uld be issued for a new elec tion in the room of the Noble Lords who had been un seated, till after the 16th of April. BOROUGH OF DUNDEE. _ Mr. HUME moved the issue of a new writ for the election of a Member of Parliament for the borough of Dundee, in the room of George Kinloch, Esq., deceased. The Hon. Member took that opportunity of mentioning, that although that gentleman had not unfortunately had an opportunity of making appearances in that House, yet he had excited great interest throughout the country as the friend and advocate of Reform, when it was ❑et so fashionable as at present, having been expatriated for several years, in consequence of his services in that cause, and his decease would occasion to the people of Scotland and England much regret. LONGFORD ELECTION. Colonel WOOD brought up the report of the Select Committee appointed to inquire into the merits of the petition against the return of Luke White, Esq., and James Halpin Rourke, Esq., for the county of Long ford. The Committee reported that the said Luke White, E‘q., and James Halpin Rourke, Esq., had not been duly elected for that county, and that Lord Forbes and Anthony Lefroy, Esq., were duly elected, and ought to have been returned at the I.st election. The Ccmmittee had altered the poll, by striking off certain names to the amount of 73.—The Clerk of the Crown was then ordered to attend the House to-morrow, to amend the return. Mr. O'CONNELL brought up an application from the Carrickfergus Committee for the order of the House for the production of some documents, which were necessary for their information. He stated that himelf and wilier Members of the Committee, were very strongly im pres.ed with an opinion that these documents had been withheld from an improper motive.—Ordered to be laid on the tab'e. The Honourable IVl..mber then moved that at its rising, the Carricklergus•Committee do adjourn till Tuesday week.—Leave granted. FRANCIS L: DILLON. The SPEAKER ordered the Sergeant-at-Arms to have the medical man called in, and on his entrance, asked him if he had seen Francis Dillon. Mr. Lay.iA—l have, Sir. The SPEAKER—In what state did you find him ? Mr. Laveis—ln good bodily health, but perfectly incoherent. The SPEAKER—Does he still continue in that state? Mr. Las , is—He still labours under mental delusion. The SPEAKER—You may withdraw. Lord ALTHORP said that alter the evidence of the medical gentleman, he should move that the prisoner be dismissed without the payment of fees. Mr. O'CONNELL expressed his fears that the unfor tunate person at the bar had no friends to protect him, and that he had come to London on some idle speculation. He had frequently called on him, bur he (Mr. O'Connell) had not been able to ascertain the precise object be had in view. The SPEAKER informed the House that he had had a communication with the Right Hon. the Secretary of State for the Home Department, who hail ordered that an officer of police should be in attendance, to afford the Prisoner every protection after he was discharged from the custody of the Sergeant-at-Arms, if the House should so determine. The case of this man was similar to that of a person in just the same state of meival delusion, who had made a great vi,ciferation from the gallery, and who the House determined should be passed over to the safe custody of his friends. Lord ALTHORP moved that Mr. Francis L. Dillon he dismissed from the custody of the Sergeant-at-Ar►rts with hut the payment of fees, which the House decided in the affirmative, and the prisoner was ordered to withdraw. LONDON AND BIRMINGHAM RAILWAY. Sir E. 1). SCOTT moved the third reading of the London and Birmingham Railway Bill. After a short desultory conversation respecting the in troduction of a new clause, which was inaudible in the gallery, the further proceedings on the Bill were ordered to be postponed until to-morrow. Several notices, on the names of the Members who were to bring them forward to day being called by the SYEAKEIL, were postponed. To a question from Mr. W. PATTEN, Lord ALTHORP said the discussion on the Irish church temporalities was not, technically speaking, an adjourned debate ; it was merely that the Chairman bad reported progress, and asked leave for the Committee to sit again on the same subject. There was nothing on the paper for to-morrow to prevent the Honourable Member (Mr. Patten) from bringing forward the mo tion of which he had given notice ; if it came on to-night, it would last all night to the exclusion of the Irish Church business, and if it were brought on to morrow, it would last all night. If it were put to him (Lord Althorp) whether he would wish the motion of the Hon. Member to be brought forward to night or to-mor row night, he should certainly prefer the latter. Mr. W. PATTEN was anxious to conlorm to the wish to postpone his motion until to-morrow, if he could be assured by the Noble Lord that he could have to morrow for that purpose. Lord ALTHORP knew of no impediment to its being brought forward to-morrow ; indeed, he thought it advi sable that it should be disposed of before the holydays. Mr. PATTEN then postponed his motion until to morrow. A petition from John Wilkinson and another was pre sented, against the return for the borough of Marylebone, which was ordered to be taken into consideration on the 21st of May. SEIZURE OF SOAP. Mr. Alderman WOOD wished to know if his Majesty's Government had beard of a considerable seizure of soap that bad taken place on board a large stem] vessel, bound for Ireland, which had been sent there for the purpose of receiving the drawback. If so, he wished to know whe ther it was the intention of Government to prosecute the parties. Lord ALTHORP believed that a considerable seizure had taken place, and that Government were determined to proceed against the parties. POLITICAL UNIONS. Sir JOHN TYRRELL, in putting the question of which he had given notice last,night to the Noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, stated, that he felt it due to his Majesty's Government and the Hon. Member who had brought forward the charge against a Member of his Majesty's Government, that he should adopt this course, and that some satisfactory answer should be given to that charge, not only by the Noble Lord opposite, but by the Government. If the statements of that Hon. Member were correct, it was incumbent on his Majesty's Government to give some explanation on the matter. Lord ALTHORP said, that although the Hon. Mem ber opposite bad given notice of putting a question to him, he bad asked him no question whatever—(A laugh)— hut front what he had stated last night, he perfectly un derstood what the Hon. Member requested. He wished to know whether the statement which had been made by the Honourable Member for Tralee, that one of his Mdjesty's Ministers had franked fifty letters during the period he was out of office—during the period of the change of the Administration, if it might be so called—in older to excite the poli•ical unions to peti• tion for their ►eturn to Parliament was true. The Hon. Member had most frankly stated that he would tell him (Lord Althoip) which of bis colleagues it was, and upon a subsequent occasion he bad been informed it was Earl Grey. Now he (Lord Altborp) had asked that Noble Lord whether the charge that had been made against him was true, and he had stated to him most positively that be had not franked any-letters at all at that time. He bad also spoken to Earl Grey's private secretary, who 'had stated that he had no recollection of having franked any letters of the nature alluded to. He admitted, however, that it might be possible that he had franked two or three letters for persons who had requested him so to do, but he was not aware in the slightest degree of the contents of the letters, but to the best of his belief he had not franked any letters at the period at all. Mr. M. O'CONNELL said that his authority was that of a gentleman who could be produced at the bar of this House, who told him that Mr. Joseph Parks, a notorious leader of the Birmingham union, had several franks given him, signed " Grey ;" that they were official franks; that they were blank covers, and he was going to write lytters in them to the different political unions. Lord ALTHORP said that the statement of the Hon. Gentleman completely exonerated his Noble Colleague, who, it was well known to many gentlemen, when he gave frank., did not give official franks. He begged also to correct the statement the Hon. Member had made with respect to Mr. Park., who so far from being a leader of the Birmingham political union, was not even a member of it. Mr. MAURICE O'CONNELL—It was stated to me that he was. Lord ALTHORP—I know Mr. Parks very well, and believe that he is n , ,t a member of the union. Mr. CHARLES WOOD, during the last two years knew that a number of addresses had been sent up to Lord Grey from political unions, and he, as private secretary to Earl Grey, bad simply acknowledged the receipt of these addresses, and no more. To the best of his recollection he had never used an expr , ssion in any of his letters, implying the existence of political unions. 'With the exception of letters so written, he had never franked a letter to the member of any political union, or given a frank, either in his own name or that of Earl Grey, to any individual, knowing him to be a member of any political union. Sir JOHN TYRRELL—He trusted he should not he considered impertinent, if, in addition to what he had already said, he added that it was currently reported that there were some Member of his Majesty's Go• vernmen!, who were also members of political unions; and he begged to move for a return of the Members of the Government who were also members of political unions. —(Loud laughter.) Farther, in order to elucidate the point immediately before the House, be begged to move that Mr. Parks be called to the Bar. The motion having been seconded, amidst loud laughter and c.mfosi,m, Mr. HENRY GRATTAN said that the return would not be complete unless the Hon. Member sor Essex added to it a list of those members of his Majesty's 0 position, as it bad been called, who were also members of the Conservative Club.—(Laud laughter.) Bur, to be se rious, was it fitting that the time of the House should be occupied in putting his Majesty's Government upon trial, because some franks had been kindly given to particular individuals? An Hort. MEMBER, congratulated the Hon. Member, for Essex, upon the cock-and•a-bull story—(A laugh)— he had picked up for the foundation of his motion, but submitted that the House would not only make itself ridi culous in the eyes of the country, but worse by thus wast ing time which ought to be given to the di-acussion of their grievances. Mr. O'CONNELL begged to remark that the state ment of the Hon. Member for Tralee had not been made as a matter of charge against the Government. Lord ALTHORP said that he did not consider the charge of a very grave nature, and at all events it was quite without foundation. Sir J. TYRRELL would not persevere in his motion, although he could not help thinking that there was sorf lurking folly somewhere. Lord ALT[IORP brought up certain papers relative to the Poor Laws Committee. He was sorry he had not been able to lay before the House the report of the Com missioners, and the papers he had now laid on the table were only minutes of evidence which that Committee had selected. Mr. O'CONNELL wished to take that opportunity to set himself right in the opinion of the House. It bad been his intention to move for the appointment of a Com mittee to inquire into a practical and efficient system of poor laws for Ireland, but having since had an opportunity of seeing the extracts now laid on the table, he should add, that it would be impossible for him to make any motion to that effect, or give his actpiescence to any system of poor laws for a country that, amid all its misfortunes, had hitherto had the good luck of avoiding them. He was sure when the papers now laid on the table were read, this would be the prevalent opinion on the subject. _ _ _ _ _ Mr. RICHARDS said he was more confirmed in hie opinion than ever as to the expediency and necessity of in. troducing some measure of the nature of a poor law to provide for the indigent of Ireland. The Hon. Member then gave notice of a motion for calling the attention of the House to the subject on the 7th of M y next. Mr. HUME said, as the Hon. Member had given no tice of a motion on so important a suhj. et, be begged him to acquaint himself fully with the evils connected with the present system of poor laws in Ene land, and apply himself to their correction, before he attempted to impose a similar system on Ireland. Colonel WOOD hoped the Hon. Member would per severe in his motion, and he might assure himself of his (Colonel Wood's) most cordial support. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said there was a great diffe rence between introducing a new and unobjectionable system and amending an old system, under which many abeses and grievances existed. He did not despair of accom plishing the former in reference to Ireland : but still it required great investigation and caution, and he hoped that the House would not hastily legislate on the subject. Mr. PEASE would be glad if there were something like a ch finite plan before the House, for the relief of the poor in Ireland. Al Members seemed to agree that some system of poor laws tor that country might be found to be practicable, but none of them agreed in any definitive plan. He hoped the Hon. Member for C.rnarven would not turn back, but would persevere in bringing before the House some plan upon which the opinion of the House might be taken.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. HENRY GRATTAN said it was indeed time that some positive steps should be taken, that rags, and disor der, and misery might no longer go on accumulating. The Hon. Member for Dublin could not go out with his family, from his house in Merrion-square, without being beset by a crowd of squalid and miserable people, in the utmost state of wretchedness. These poor creatures no longer ask for charity, but, after giving a double knock at the door, cloy force themselves into the house, and almost insisted upon being satisfied. He (Mr. Grattan) occupied a house and two acres of land in the county of Surrey, and paid more to the support of the poor than the Lord-Lieu• tenant of Wicklow did in that country with an income of 50,000/. per anouto.—(Hear.) If the union of the two countries was to be supported, it should be by snaking its good laws equal.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord might carry measures 'to put down political disturbances, but what would he do with the disturbances of starvation? The Hon. Member made some observations relative to what bad fallen from the Hon. Baronet opposite which brought up Sir ROBERT PEEL, who was proceeding to speak upon the subject of poor laws for Ireland, when Mr. RICHARDS rose to call the light Hon. Baronet to order—(Oh, oh)—as he was speaking upon a subject which was not regularly before the House.—(oh, and Order, order.) Sir R. PEEL said the Hon. Member was at liberty not to go into the subject himself, if he were so disposed.— (Hear.) But be would advise the Hon Member not to Lear only the arguments on one side of the question.— (Hear, bear.) He (Sir R Peel) thought that the time was now arrived when the whole of the matter should be gone into, and the views of every gentleman subjected to a severe scrutiny. His advice to the Government would be not to do any thing until they had the report and had maturely examined it, and that the Commission he composed of men of the highest character, whose talents and impartiality would be a guarantee that every endeavour would be made to alleviate the condition of the Irish poor, and to see how far the English laws could be applied to Ireland. MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS. The Usher of the Black Rod entered the House, and summoned it to the Bar of the House of Lords to hear his m a jesty's Commission read. The Speaker and several Members then proceeded to the House of Lords, and on their return, the Right Hon. Gentleman informed the House that his Majesty had given his Royal Assent by Commission to several Bills—(for which see the Lords' report). The SPEAKER then left the Chair, and the House re solved itself into a Committee on the Church of Ireland Reform Bill. Lord ALTHORP, in rising to move the second reso lution, wished 'to make a few observations to the Com mittee. In the discussion of last night the Right Hon. Baronet had applied himself to the resolution now to be m oved. The Right Hon. Gentleman objected to imposing any tax on the present incumbents, in order to relieve the people of Leland from the vestry cess. When be first made the proposition, inquiry had been made by his Ma jesty's Government, and the result he understood was, that some of the clergy of Ireland felt every objection to the tax being . imposed on them. His Right Hon. Friend, who was not at present a Member of the House, had autho rind bim to state, in his name, that he bad had several conversations with the Irish clergy on . ibe subject, and the result was this—he was about to quote his Right Hon. Friend's words. The Noble Lord accordingly read a paper to Vie following effect :—" Ie all the conversa•ions I have had with the Primate and with the clergy, there never has been any objection taken which should preclude us from imposing the tax. The subject was often discussed, and the Primate expressed a wish that the parochial clergy should be spared, and the tax should fall on the Bishitps." He had, therefore, reason to believe, when he brought forward the proposition, that the clergy would not object to it, and on this foundation he had expressed a hope that they would not. It now turned out, undoubt edly, that the clergy had objections, at least that many of the clergy objected tr to the tax proposed. —(Hear, hear.) He was ready to say, that if any other mode of relieving the people of Ireland from the vestry cess could he dis covered, he should admit that it might be proper to listen to the Right Hon. Baronet's suggestions, and not tax tl e clergy. At the same time it was of such immense itn portance that the vestry cess should be done away, for the interest of the established church itself, and even to secure the existence of that church, that he did not think his proposition a hardship, and could not suppose that the proposition of his Majesty's Government denerved the character of tending to subvert that church.—( Hear, hear.) It should be observed, that the resolution did not impose the tax upon the present incumbents. He was ready to say, that on considering the question, if the Go vernment could find any means of providing for that (less, ant not tax the incumbents at all, the Government would gladly avail itself of it.—(Hear, hear.) He must further state, that be should object to the amendment proposed. At the same time, by adopting the resolutions, the House would not be precluded, if it thought proper, in the future stages of the Bill, from altering the proposed tax. With respect to the question or the Right Hon. Gentleman as to the parochial clergy. the Committee would observe, that the tax could fall exclusively on them, but also on the hierarchy, ana therefore that argumentem ad misericor diam of the Right Hon. Gentleman slid not apply. In conclusion he might add, chat it was so necessary to re lieve the people of Ireland from the vestry cess, that if no better method could he found of relieving them, he should hope the Committee would adopt the proposition of his Majesty's Government. He must add, in reply to a remark of the Right Hon. Member for Montgomery, that be bad no objection to attach the schedules at the end of the Bill to this resolution.—(Hear, hear.) Sir ROBERT PEEL hoped the Noble Lord concurred in his views, that it the vestry cess ought to be abolished, it ought not to be impt,sed on the present incumbents. If the Noble Lord concurred in that, he would ask him not to force the Committee to come to a division. The Noble Lord said that the removal of the cess was neces sary, but lie believed the Noble Lord had overrated the burden. The Noble Lord stated it at 60,0001 ; but let the Noble Lord inquire further, and he would find the exclusive vestry cess not so much. Let the Noble Lord, too, above all, consider that it was not necessary to pass the resolutions immediately. Perhaps, if the vestry cess were abolished immediately, the Noble Lord could provide for it by a vote of public money.—(Lord Althorp was understood to say across the table that he meant to do that.) Why, then, if the Noble Lord intended it, let him not hasten the question to decision—let him not make it a party dispute. He was ready to meet the Noble Lord half-way. Ail he asked at present was, that the Noble Lord should grant them a short delay. Let the Noble Lord withdraw the resolutions, and introduce them after the recess, and after an opportunity of fully considering the subject. He was ready to concede the principle, that tt vestry cess should be abolished, and a provision made .r them out of the revenues of the church ; but he asked for delay, and that the Government should take time to consider and propose a proper substitute. _ . L , ird ALT HORP believed there was then an under standing between him and the Right Hon. Gentleman, that the amendment should not be moved. He proposed that they should assent to the resolutions, and that provi. Sion should be made hereafter that those resolutions should not be carried further than the suggestion of the Right Hon. Gentleman. Sir R. PEEL hoped the Noble Lord, as a Minister of the Crown, would expressly admit, that all existing inte rests should be exempted. If that were the case, he was little inclined to stickle for forms, and should advise his lion. Friends to permit the resolutions to pass, with the understanding that they should not be restricted in pro posing any alterations in the Bill they thought proper hereafter. Mr. C. W. WYNN called the attention of the Noble Lord to the inconvenience of voting a tax before they knew its amount. It would be better, in his opinion, to delay the whole matter till after the holydlys. _ _ Lord ALTHORP reminded his Right Hon. Friend that the second resolution referred also to the amount of small livings as well as to the vestry cess. With respect to pledging the Government on this subject, the Rght Hon. Gentleman was aware he could not do that; but he would say—and the Right Hon. Gentleman would understand the force of what he said—that he would take his sugges tions into the most favourab!e consideration. Mr. SHAW wished the Noble Lcrd to make an excep. tion in the resolution in favour of the present incumbents. The Noble Lord estimated the exclusive vestry cess at 60,0001. Ile bad carefully calculated it, and could say, that tue whole amount of the exclusive vestry cess appli cable to ecclesiastical purposes did not exceed 28,0001. It was ❑ot above 281. for each church. As to another means of providing for this, he would suggest that a sum of 400,0001. should be placed in the hands of the Board of First Fruits that might be put out to interest, and, with the deductions from the bishopric of Derry, might answer the purpose. He could not acquiesce in the principle of the resolution, because it was a violation of church pro perty. _ Lord ALTHORP said, that as to the suggestion of the Hon. and L”arned Gentleman who had just sat down, he certainly was no' prepared to aeree with him at all. Mr. GOULBURN would sacrifice all the objections which he had to other parts of the Noble Lord's prop°• sition, and they were many, if the Noble Lord would make the sacrifice to him on the present occasion, that ex isting interests should not be taxed. He wished to avoid 50 maul est an injuqice. Lord ALTHORP was surprised that the Right Hon. Gentleman, knowing the peculiar situaion in which he was placed, should press him to say more than he had done.—(Cheers.) Sir M. W. RIDLEY thought the gentlemen opposite ought to be satisfied with what the Noble Lord had air• ady stated. Mr. SHAW felt grateful to the Noble Lord for the concession he had already made—and he certainly bad been much mistaken if the House appreh:nded it was his intention to press his suggestion to a diviilon. Mr. GOULBURN would consent to the resolution passing in its present shape if the Noble Lord would pro. wise to take it into consideration, and let the discussion take place in bringing up the report. Mr. HUME hoped the Noble Lord, after the candid statements which he bad already made, would pledge him self no further.—(Hear, bear.) One great error pre vailed throughout this discussion—that of considering the clergy as the church instead of the congregation.—(Hear.) When there was no congregation, no allowance ought to be made. He agreed that this resolution should pass in its present state, and he was sure, that after the state ment made by the Noble Lord, the gentlemen below might Place full confidence in him. In making these conces sions, however, he called upon the Noble Lord to remem her that he was strictly watched by two different classes of attentive spectators ; and whilst he sought to conciliate Hon. Gentlemen by yielding certain paints, others might imagine he was yielding too much. Lord ALTHORP said it bad frequently happened to him to be blamed by each side for yielding to ihe other; but this he would say, that he always would give way when he saw good reason for so doing.—(Cheers ) His Hon. Friend might depend on it, that no man in England need be alarmed in consequence of the inclination which he had shown to give way to the exemption of present in cumbents, that he would give way on any material prin ciple of the measure to which he felt himself pledged— (Hear, bear)---but in this instance he thought he could give way without such interference. Sir R. PEEL said, that after what the Noble Lord had said, be thought he ought not to be further pressed on the subject. The Noble Lord could not be expected to pledge his colleagues, but be bad promised to give it his fullest consideration, and the value of such words proceeding from a Minister of the Crown must be fully understood. Colonel PERCEVAL considered that the Noble Lord had only given way to his own sense of justice. Mr. FINN said, both sides of the House appeared to be vieing with each other who shiarld most uphold the Pro testant establishments in het ind.—(Loud cries of "Hear, hear.") He would tell the Noble Lord, and he would tell the House, that the people of Ireland looked upon that establishment as monstrous in its amount—as excessively disproportioned to the spiritual wants of its members.—and as a heavy and unjust tax upon the.large body of the Catholic population. In 1731, the population of I re l an d was 2,000,000 —at this moment it amounted to 8,000,000. The Protestant population at the first period was to the Catholic as one to two and half, but at the present time 1s was only as one-half to six and a half. If the exten sion of the Protestant religion, therefore, was their object, they had completely failed. The best way of extending that religion would be by doing justice to the people of Ireland, and not by keeping up an overgrown eetablish o( ment, which, under existing circum stances, the Pep, Ireland repard.d as the badge of conquest and of _ ll Ol The whole Protestant church population in Irellt not more than 700,000. If they deducted the . I T., terians of the North, the Calvinists, and other Dig',,de he was sure it did not exceed that amount, Wlitilrf sum total enjoyed by the clergy of this poP° l 4 700,000 amounted to upwards of 1,000,0001. ote annum—though the whole of the clergy of France, of population of 32,000,000, did not receive 0011110 1,500,000/. Was not this monstrous? "nip O glaring disproportions existed, could they wonderto feeling which prevailed in Ireland towards the p ment ?—( Hear.) Whilst they were lavishing not sympathies on the established clergy, t h e state of ge fering poor in Ireland was totally f o rgotten. di in there were upwards of 1,000,0 00 of men Irel ing to work who could no get more than fourieeF fivepenee a day, and that casually. h e o Lord ALTHORP deprecated the tone of the the Hon. Gentleman, as c,tculated to le` to tle . _fs t ill discussion. He most certainly, on bringing l'il";i004 proposition, did not seek to abolish the established" in Ireland. His aim was, merely to reform its It was unfair of the Hon. Gentleman also to eveln,l4 this Bill was the only measure of relief inteed'bior, t "' t, brought forward by Ws Majesty's Governeneo it was well known that it was only one of settees!. °1 .000, The CHAIRMAN then put the second reeeo, given in our yesterday's paper. Some words havioor ev.r, been introduced aft.r the words " er°"'coed ment," to this effect—graduated so as not to a per. ce r. n W t. in any case. hest tli .a MARBURTON was extremely glad t° mariner in which the suggestion of the Right Hen; t oe (Sir R. Pe- I) below him was received. He q uite- PO' in the principle laid down by the Hon. Member for PO' chu A l l a r •h . G in i g L e L n o er N il : lin, that th, y should deal tenderly with existing tote' tK however they dealt abs ractedly with the propel o f tIO rather than impede the Prog res'j h 10 1 Bill, wuuld withdraw the amendment of whic h , - „ e 0 c iu•idered as supporting a church estattlish given notic • ; but in doing so, he hoped he shol! Ireland or elsewhere.—( Hear.) Those who bad e l P ro lset so much commiseration for the establishmen t would do better to commiserate the starving r' that country. • Mr. JAMES JOHNSTONE was glad that I °,ol o Friend avowed his hostility to the establiahtee°4oo open, manly manner. The church had less to tir es 0 . 11 avowed foe-, then from the undermining o f e . °° eto ° ' tnernies.— (Hear.) But lie denied that the sentglserk his Hon. Friend were participated in by the peolA e land. He expressed his satisfaction at the e l3n ‘ made by the Noble Lord. oh/ An Hoer. MEMBER (name unknown) observed' 0 14 1 o i o religion was a matter of pure personal interest. iuP ask, whether one ought to be compelled to rig `; - ,eo o ' porting a form of worship which he believed ee 44 0 trary to the Word of God ? Was it not monet r ' t 1 10 1 attempt to control men's consciences? Vi r es t i a l tjus . ° ll . O l Parliament should interfere with the -- 'SP means I d He was himself a member of the church f Enf.in 0 he did not find fault with another beeause Went eitorreoi —'° He sees Salvation on the same hill-top, But treads another path." tjelit Mr. ESTCOURT would agree ta i the result', giow ttalikeeuni n d t e o rst i a i n , din er g io t u h s at esi t n b s e i Noble Ltohred e(uAglgtehsotrioll, Right Hon. B ronei (Sir Hubert Peel). After a few words from Mr. Ruthven, AR. OP' wood, Mr. Woriairon, and Mr. M. Attisood, ja the Chairman read the resolution. w hich Mr. FAITHFUL con, urred in all that part f t b ferred to t,lc:n4 away ; but he did not apPr°" ° pe t to b e d ° t o mode in which what was taken away was pi iated. He r gretted that it was not to be aPP li j e , relief of the people, instead of bein , still aPP lie- t purposes of the Church.—(Considerable merriale°o3ir excited on the Hon. Member's sitting down, by t b ,, e e ec inan putting the question, as if upon the o Ptp tol ttnee of his speech, " As many as are of that say Aye.") The resolution was then agreed to. The House resumed. MUTINY BILL. 10 / On the report upon the Mutiny Bill, h be j Mr. HUME rose to move the clause of v , b' e- Zc e e given notice, " That it shall not be lawful to inw so ulier' poral punishment by flogging on any P riv „ s ,, e o rtnY, corporal, or non-commissioned officer in ..., t " - „,,t1 0 1 ,` militia of the United Kingdom, within the u"'netsvit", dom, anything herein contained to the contrarytriielste', standing." He felt anxious to know w hether y rs w hir' w.iuld not attempt to carry into effect those oPinhi°,,git tb they had advocated when out of office. Ile tli;bithet time was now come when they ought 0 IcewvPA charg. measures which they had formerly had been made against those who had ad/° cate to ru t ' soPP" .ed. d the abol!, tion of flogging i n the arm that , W ished t tb 3 rmy, that they m il Az the discipline of the army. He would ne ver this 1 ; and he would only reply to the charge by slat[- ,;,11therei; —that there were some regiments in "'"'" t his, no flogging, and in which, notwithstanding {oar, pline was maintained as w e ll as i n those wbe re ti 18". was frequent, if not better. On the 15th 34filauie I on the third reading of the Mutiny Bill, he (Wia had hail the honour to move the following c. b e " And be it be further ena c t e d, that it shall n ot pr id , to inflict corporal punishment, by flogging , " I f tbe' r e )' soldier, corpora', or non-commissioned officer , '", VP" - or militia of the United Kingdom, within "1001' Kingdom, anything herein contained to the cerirra;Meol: withstanding,." He was seconded by the Galltii% her for Nottingham (Sir R. Ferguson). The “;,.? divided—for the clause, 47 ; against it 127; 117.„reityr:/ej The following Hon. Members vot e d with the 113'°-, Lord J. Althorp, Al e xa n d er B ar i ng , W. D e ,„, n l. ? l' eli t , p uncannon, Sir. R. Ferguson, W. James , l • ''' jolt °. rely, Him. G. Lamb, T. B. Lennart, Dr. Lo W. L. 'Moberly, Sir George Phillips, i r• S A' oN i : Sir Mathew W. Ridley, J. Smith, A. IV. Alderman Wood, Sir John Wrottesley w . a, Tellero ,0 Cam Hobhouse, Joseph Hume. He s r ° see in his place the Secretary for Ireland ( ' d ; 9 0, 1 411 1 C. Hobhouse), who had stated his opinion O r !' on the subject. On the third reading of the Al ti ,„, ll) ,fel' l t in 1827, on the 12th March, Mr. Leycester 1-fitert" clause—" That it shall not be lawful to enforce, -(tenth passing of this Act, corporal punishment 0 0 an , Y ,, by the sentence of any courtmartial within '" 11 - , ,abe lo s Kingdom." Lord Nugent supported it. 111r• I ''d 'aid--" He had attentively listened to what .)3 A l , ' y from gallant officers in the army on the sUbj eet ,. ; o Id " H . Ol only reason they gave for de'emling it that he ' -u it " t d cover was, that it ought to be continued beca u ' e rn b et- ; existed. That so far from flogging making th e ,,. la j i; soldiers or men, no good could be der' ed ; " ° ro iv to r and as no benefit resulted from the revolting ee're, e 1 ought to be abolished, as being a national 04' 0 ,iec l) b r as placing our army, in its discipline and lion° W. ' o o o to that of France. He h o p e d that no session N ade l " ni 0 suffered to pass away without some ffort being : hoj eti l ' e relieve the soldiers from this a bominable piu"' . l,o b i t He should hope that the Noble Lord and those wich now in power would put an end to a syste m 'eh 0 , 01 1 formerly characterized as a disgrace to the O h l° trel i i , could not understand why Englishmen siwu ld r °' l o like brutes. The Mutiny Act supplied many e' a e t ad,d tary punishments besides this, which was so deO g iogg l er , the national character; and the fact was/ r h3t • 11 0 ` f- 0' was inflicted merely because officers bad it in their o , o l ' o whereas if they were deprived of that povver , t b :„ Y abil e t find many other means which would effect all '' ; ,l te :sl ,‘ which they could have in view. It Was p e on„' this subject sleep in a reformed Parliament. "-Uld ment of slaws was confined to fifteen lashes. aria.op nesessary for maintaining the discipline of tie ajai,oo, subject the soldiers to 200, 300, and 500 ? t 10 4 to any other punishment courtsmartiar maY . °'l 3 - e , be';o offenders to be marked on the left side, two ine an d id the arm.pit, with the letter D, an inch long , tr ti: e gunpowder, not liable to be obliterated. " L il e e diog r , d , that such a punishment, which perpetuated to ref-0.1 and tended to destroy all feelings favourable![to 'we° tion in the soldier, was never carried into eire.ored, ft eluded hy moving the clause to which he had r ef e to or l t An Hoar. MEMBER. observed, in answerpunt 6 i, u 0 0/ 1 urged by Mr. Home, that no officer co uld impulse of the moment, or without the interverto 0 courtmartial. Mr. HUME had alluded to COUrtstilartialy 90- A ) individual officers. e t r 3r) P Mr. LENNARD said that he bad in no respe vote d the opinion he had formerly expressed by his v b ° o o bo t i military flogging ought to be aholished--and i therefore, willingly support the clause of the 110 0 7 ris h , t z for Middlesex. It was not to be denied that pu°, o ot,i were inflicted on soldiers in the army that isqc:lru, • pd tutored if attempted to be inflicted upon voi!, common gaols.—(llear.) It was an anoruaf? the 0 .0 0 ) law that there was one species of punishment [l ,, st ior ,;! and another for the officer, so that `nod it.coe) was constantly kept up, which, together so, s .he 130 7 punishment, tended to degrade the character of ' 13 . 1 11 army, Mr. R. GRANT, having taken charge o_f t t h i e e ti - bc l l l ,j the absence of his Right Hon. Friend (Sir J. u• te l t calk(' upon to make one or two obs:lvati,for w -,hould deserve attention for their candour if 001