The Sun. — London, England, 1833-07-20 00:00:00

tad been l' i r !rases. a long il d amount j i that ion tent bad ° ,5 y were et D this er, ips right °r , roundatioe'., tight Reef, le as welli°,4 - • as not In , late oorOf r sums h ited that my two that the I—The i v nediate 011 credit lot litional f'3/ )e pastors' hem With :ompared she di.pr' and between y, the viol eland had done. _1 of this )e case. regretted ed the de' delis to le nust be 0 7. The t l i d 07; ace in 1 `.:0 0 e time' of respectll"loy his c o rerherher 15 1 Q )sition• ted tha t , ' 0 0 larnent e ved Of 1)9, 1V 3 18° I di ie time at e to th , y li the e° 01.1 'cl i e o what IA the , a"' - 'ls c )ya „j o t) , ie his J.` 00 4 Noble Learned Friend who opened the debate, fixed his seal to ' that measure, and advised his Majesty to assent to it. Th a t was no violation of the oath, nor was this, and his Noble ..nd Learned Friend, if it was, must answer to the charge. What was the difference between the violation then and now ? The difference' was this—that one vi olation had for its end a trifle, and the other a great and • beneficial object. The one was in 1817, and the other in 1833. In strict right the violation was the same, no matter what might be the amount, and he would say that Parliament exercised the right of legislating on the pro perty of the Church; and if it had the right on one occasion, it ought to have the right on another, Provided always that.due care were taken of vested rights. Parliament, however, had not been always careful of those r ights, and he could point out one occasion to show that there was nothing in this spiritual property to entitle it to be Withdrawn from the Legislature. The right to tithes he co ns id ered as strong as any other species of av 'l i ' t u h thatre h roperty. Had not the Legislature i nter f ere d species of property, without asking any other consent than was asked for the present measure ? And he letPind6l theii Lordships that he stated, more than once, -4 ""sion, a case where tithes respecting commodities of particular growth were regulated by Act of Parliament. It w as found th at f u ll t i t h es prevented the growth of cer tam producti ons , an d t h at i t wou ld b e necessary e i ther to take th em away entirely, or to restrict them. The par ticular an , a commodities he referred to were madd e r, hemp, the--"" " 31 . In the early part of th e re i gn o f Willi am 111., tithe valued on flax and hemp was 4s. an acre to all, and some time afterwards the tithe on madder was reduced Pa to sp . Per acre. He had looked into th e pr e ambl e of thi s rt icular Act, because he had heard that Parliament W ere induc e d to pass t h e A ct f or t h e advantage of the f" h ,, ur eito lest none o f thos e commo diti es s h ou ld b e ra i se d, . u e tithes were exa c t e d i n f u ll. Th at was a very poor "gultent, fo r if th ese pro d uct i ons were not ra i se d, I f "le oth ers m i g h t b e. B ut the Leg i slature was more ? I lk than the partisans of the Church, for in the Pre amble of the Bill were set forth the reasons fo r 6the reductions. What were they? Motives purely ela r•--The Act says, whereas madder— a nd not, erect the Church—(A laugh)—should be grown as an IZl:Oient necessary—not to feed the parsons—(A laugh) ailtiout for d ye i ng an d pr i nt i ng ca li co; an d whereas trade Pr Manufactures might be reduc e d if the growth were the e d te nt , -1 and whereas the growth of it was a saving to 4 j'ner in winter months, no more than so much is to go 1 „ "the to the vicar, curate, or lay impropriator. It was r4feetly clear, if this could be done, that the Legislature g r eater deal with that epecies of property in matters of 4: 4 " Magnitude. He would not go back raking out old Lords-11 of this kind, but he did not forget, and their C o , l iPs could not forget, a vote of the Irish House of at , i,!" 3lD ils calling the levying of tithes vexatious, and T he e" vote was followed up by an Act of Parliament. h oat instances proved, with respect to the coronation that they were not deviating from strict principle in h 4 44 ting the present measure. He thought he had Ili rd it said in the course of the present debate, by a (414. t Reverend Prelate, that this measure was one both or e lation arid spoliation, and that, not thinking the e viol at i on an d spo li at i on su ffi c i ent, t h e Ri g h t s g e tt e rend Pr e l a t e was a l so p l ease d to a dd, an d o f robbery ; te a , t he cond uc t o f th ose w h o p a t ron i se d i t t h at o f hi g h- W en t Who say, Stand and deliver. What was to he 17 4 t ° those wh o d e li vere d up th e Bishops in Ireland in t en. ; 1 2d 1752? but they only delivered two, and we do to the Eight were every bit as guilty, and he would leave i t to d e nught Rev. Prelate, whose mild expressions he q uo t e d io ttr ZY r that they w e re not. But did th a t H ouse never and with property? And why say that it could not, it t h""Y compare the clergy to a corporate body ? Was But I S : their p ro p erty m i g h t escape b e i ng me ddl e d w i t h ? d eal Pposin g it to be a corporation, did that House never if co , W ith corporations ? What was the India Company l;aiUechartered corporation ? Y e t th a t H ouse o f Par _ urs while the Right Rev. Prelate was sitting in it, 55d Passed an Act taking from that corporation 30,0001., co Patting that sum into the pockets of a gentleman nMr Murray. He did not complain of tht Act ; far from it ; yet he opp o s e d i t then ; but he a ve ould ' 4 la any thing against it now that it was the law of the , • .an.. But it be ever s o wrong, it was a n illue_ t tttion of his present argument, and could not be denied, h 4 nles s by saying it was wrong, and that he was sure the ; gi glit Rev. Prelate would not do, since be was so zealous i. 14 Promoting the passing of it. Whatever opposition he ;, er l given that Act—whatever he might have called it, -e Lid never said, " You have no right to pass it." His arg il I,'n - ta were, that it should not be passed in that par caae. In vain, after ova Right Reverend Prelate's e . o .°ea ey of that Act—in n would it be for him to tr rn P t a_re to highwaymen those who aivised the present i , ore tweasure of peace and consolation to Ireland—a mea ls" ... r atight with the greatest advantages to both Church fmte n6tate—vain would it be for that Right Rev. Prelate to 5 %033 7t e l _those advisers the charge of robbery, when that the statutel Pverolipicehrty t em.. red letters, was staring interfered with by that House, when sanctioned it, illustrated with black him in the face.—(Hear, 1 04 ). He had also heard it said by a Right Rev. Pre lant;ho argued on the measure with his usual dignity and It Y of manner with that suavity that distinguished of hi " all occasions without its ever weakening the force ItigCtabrgUroents--witb unfeigned regret did he bear that ere atu r /. Prel a t e o bj ect to t h e p resen t meas ur e , o n t wo and 4 L--first, as being a violation of the coronation oath, r ezt ' as attacking the corporate rights of the Church. tte me e 4 4ll Y did not understand how the clergy could he w:r!ana_s_aecorporate body, unless it were meant that they b i t , 11 , 0 7 rnbly of various corporations, and that it would e 'eddl, "'We without infringing on each corporation to Were 4 With them. It might be admitted that the clergy but if j ee t 'Proration as contradistinguished from the laity ; !nd marls ere to be admitted, because they were composed nnert e ,, l l l, of all corporations, the beta egislature could not 44 4 o . f e w ith them, that would dmitting the exis- RN LI, t a r, L anstrous anomaly in this country—so ma bNiet ease if recognised to all its extent, how could two e sted t , -- I,lt together and at the same time—the State "Atli its supremacy, and the Church clad in its that :uoitlienahle ? The proposition must be most absurd O ut, ti t 414 lead to o such conclusion ; for if borne te 'b a Y • his • t his n on' s i n iC tan Archbishop run life against Year to sae' and make his tevenues amount to 150,0001. meant be enjoyed by one Archbishop for ever, until the ~.ght b e i re& to give it up ; so that 150,0001. a year -e e 16 enjoy,d for ever by one Bishop, whilst there t4;tOw-entsProna starving on thirty pounds a year. Such Rev Plehn e t : * _ d netrines he had heard from other Right Pr°Priet in th e course o f t h at d e b ate, w h o, not d eny i ng With reVectY to the assimilating he Irish and English Church, I r .: e nded th at ': the number of Bishops, say, when it is ;aud, i , v etity.two are too many in proportion for down the the disparity, but do not do so by 'Y, by r 1 . 1 the Irish Bishops to 12, but do it in this ke . he ep l 44 '4 the number of English Bishops to 40. '43 t i; 4 ,",d, laughter.) He begged to remind their Lord the a' Nl' ), were living in the y ear 1833, an d not i n e 1533 from which latter year th e p roport i ons o f i ! n t Rev. P re l ate seem to b are been taken, when he 11 „,, hro° p, t forward hi s ru l e o f t h ree , b y w hi c h h e h a d led a ►Gene,liaron completely astray. With all hi s respect f rr lat e 'nUrch Establishment—and not one Right Rev. Pre -414174 a more thorough friend to it, and more adverse to clone, s ay of its foundation, or diminish its just propor 'yes „ tll4ll he—with all this respect, lie would not shut his 41 4, 43 i ts abuses. Not one Noble Lord of that House felt d ifer: 4 ' l 4ly in favour of the Church than he; but the far ee b etween their feelings and his w as , th a t h e was t' 4 'hot tl aP ., ti ng the Ch urc h to t h e f ee li ngs of the men over that '` awn Y Was desti ne d to h ave sway; an d i n order that Mai 1, • 6 1 444 alio g -t continue, he was desirous that improve thetter, tuo l l d take place in it—that its revenues should be at i t tnil P r actically, and more usefully distributed— oved aqa trbecome more beloved, and by becoming fliers t : t. e b , v , v ered, become more permanent and secure. v, 0 " at i. , 13 / 4 e felt : f at . he thought of church reforcn—such was eou t i, u, . I ta necessity. The people, he felt sure, t i;" 4, not o n l y t4 ;° Watch over the Church—they would ,e e stablish er. English Church, but to that part of I ris Church, ent Which required most reform—to the t i t, 44e to exi st i wbi eb, if it meant to be useful, and to con. %%,. Peo p i e b _ rne Ireland, must so reform itself as to make tid °: r eh b e 0 4.. uoneiled to it. In every point of view in tn_at th at ,2_ l regard the Bill, he could not but con and rej ect i on , would be fraught with the ut eounteapecieuy`°t the peace and well being of Ireland, then r Y.---(11 05 ° the well-being of the Church in that and 1., hear, hear.) Upon those grounds, ; L a u d to ther:tgeovarions others, he confidently looked for t. nothin gwo o l leading of the Bill ; and he felt assured material t h„. 4 be done in C omm i ttee wh i ch wou l d to ees Cripple the efficacy of the measure. k e !Pect t th te e alteration h d a but this to observe, that with ill ation of any of them, which left the jeeti entire, and , Per abl e ob,_ subs as before, he should urge no litieconsider o i ent inn, but proceed candidly and impartially ti, t4 ,r t e he ear dostrub, provisions, and to discuss them. shhoaulscltrjaunst advert to one of the 1 ess," B ? r elatie e khirnditted whtefwheic strange oversight had been complaint was made against the 'llt_tti:tits,:sniontehree.groTuanhder that it was to contain some paid votesteractical There wafsno one who possessed the knowledge . o the workingoef 1 , . r 5 with him that when they ' not a n. ree stained wuhno. ula. L.... volunteers, as they might aptly be called— ' " l be found that those volunteers would begin by being somewhat irregular in their attendance, and would end without attending at all ; that in consequence the business would devotee upon some Secretary, some Regis ter, who of necessity must be paid ; that by him the bu siness would be very inadequately done, because he was hut one, and perhaps not so fairly done, bee tuse he was but one ; and this one paid officer would use the names of Dignitaries of the Church and Dignitaries of the Law to sanction his acts, and screen himself from responsibility. It was, therefore, deemed advantageous that three of the Members of the Board should be paid officers. That their Lordships would agree to the second reading he should not (or a moment permit himself to doubt; and he felt equally certain that they would do so without the intention of introducing any modifications in the Cornmitte , , calculated to impair the general efficacy of the measure, or to deprive it substantially of the character which at that moment it bore. The insinuation that they were capable of adopting such a course he rejected with in dignation—he rejected it with an indignation propor tioned to the respect which be entertained for their Lord ships ; and consistently with that respect, he could not believe that they would come to a colourable and delusive vote; such a vote would be fraught with consequences 3 thousand times more dangerous than the manly, straight forward, but, at the same time, deplorable and destructive step of throwing the Bill out on its second reading. After the Loan CHANCELLOR sat down, there were loud cries of " Question," in the midst of which a Riaht Rev. Prelate made some explanation, the purport of which was not distinctly audible in the gallery. The Duke of CUMBERLAND—I should apologise to your Lordships for addressing you at this late hour, but, after the allusions that have been made to me by the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack, it is impos sible that I should remain quite silent. It is, in such circumstances as the present, incumbent upon me boldly and manfully to own the sentiments which I profess. The Noble and Learned Lord has accused me of having con stantly and uniformly opposed what was called the Emanci pation Bill. Ti, that charge I am perfectly ready to plead guilty. I boldly avowed my hostility to that measure, and I do now, with the most perfect readi ness, acknowledge that I did so ; but from the moment when that Bill passed into a law I bowed to it, sad from that hour to the present I have never spoken of it dis respectfully. Now, I will say, that the Noble and Learned Lord, knowing the state of parties, had no right to make such an accusation against me; and I now say that, though differing from my Noble and Learned Friend upon that question, the moment I found that for political purposes we could unite with honour, I willingly shook hands, and without hesitation obliterated all former diffe rences from my recollection. I am sorry, on the present occasion, that we should appear to be of different senti ments, but I know the generosity of his character, and I feel that I do not reckon upon it too far when I antici pate that he will not disapprove of the course which I am taking. As to the Bill now under the consideration of your Lordships, I will not enter upon a discussion of its principle or its details. It would ill become me to sup pose that I could add any thing to that which has been already so ably done by men of distinguished talents in this House—it has already been so fully explained and expounded, that I feel I should be wanting in respect to your Lordships if at this late hour I should think of occupying any more of your time than was barely neces sary for saying that I disapprove of the Bill—that I object to it as a Bill of spoliation. The Noble and Learned Lord who spoke last had spoken of those as bigotte I who had adverted to the coronation oath in con nection with the present measure. I plead guilty to looking upon the coronation oath as an obstacle to the pre sent measure. I confess I do not see how we are to get over that difficulty. I am aware that there are some differences of opinion as to the interpretation to be put upon the co ronation oath, and that many Noble Lords and Right Rev. Prelates have pronounced opposite opinions upon this subject—some maintaining that there is a difference between an executive oath and one which is merely negaa tive. My view of an oath is, that it is entirely a matter between man and his God. I will, with your Lordships' permission, read the oath :—" The Archbishop—Will you solemnly promise and swear to govern the people of this kingdom of England, and the dominions thereunto be longing, according to the statutes in Parliament agreed on, and the laws and customs of the same? The King-- I solemnly promise to do so. The Archbishop—Will you, to the utmost of your power, cause law and justice to be executed in mercy in all your judgments? The King—l will. Archbishop—Will you, to the utmost of your power, maintain the laws of God, the true profession of the Gospel and the Protestant reformed religion established by the laws ? And will you preserve to the Bishops and the clergy of this realm, and to the churches committed to their charge, all such rights and privileges as by law do or shall appertain unto them or any of them ? King—All this I promise to do." That was the coronation oath ; and if ever there was an oath binding upon earth, it was that solemn obligation. Nothing could be more explicit and positive than was that oath ; at the same time that I do not say it is binding in the same manner upon different men—its meaning depends altogether upon the sense given to it by the person taking the oath; it is to be taken according to what he thinks it to mean ; but for my part I can only take it one way. The King cannot do wrong—he acts by advice ; and those who give him advice are alone the responsible parties. His Majesty will consider in what way he has taken the oatb. I beg to state, however, that I have never had any conversation with his Majesty on the subject; and I solemnly declare, that I do not know in what light he views it ; but had I taken such an oath, no consideration under heaven could induce me to break it. I have been accused of having opposed the Bill of 1807; I did no such thing, though I certainly supported the Admin. stration that was formed in the latter part of that year, which continued in power, more or less, till the year 1827, and under the guidance of which this country attained to an unexampled pitch of greatness. I am opposed .to the principle of this measure—l will vote against the second reading; but wet I to do otherwise, I should by no means accede to t a: doctrine of the Noble and Learned Lord on the Wou!sack, that in consenting to the second reading, I at all precluded myself from endeavouring to destroy in the Committee every part of the measure that appeared to me objectionable; and I wish it to be distinctly understood, that between the Noble Duke and myself there is not a shadow of difference. I will attend here every night during the Committee, and I hope that tilose who concur with me as to the mischievous tendency of the Bill will also be present, and give that which they believe to he in accordance with truth and justice the benefit of their support.—(Hear, hear.) When I recol lect the occasion which called over the family of which I am but an humble member to this country, and when I remember the principles which placed that family upon the throne of these realms—l cannot but remember they were called over to maintain the Protestant interest; and, therefore, I never can bring myself to consent to the an nihilation of the Protestant religion in Ireland. A dis pute about words almost always appears frivolous, but I will say that there is more importance in the mistake which has been committed in the designation of that branch of the United Church of England and Ireland which is esta blished in the latter division of the United Kingdom; it is but one United Church, and when one part of it falls,God only knows what may become of the remainder.--(Hear, hear.) I have thought it right, my Lords, to say thus much, for I was resolved that the world should know my sentiments upon this important occasion ; and though I may be exposed to abuse for this frank declaration of my sentiments, I shall still preserve the consciousness of having performed an important duty. I will abide by the duty which I owe to my Sovereign and my country, and in the performance of that duty I will stand or fall.—(Cheers.) The Duke of SUSSEX—I should certainly not have addressed yonr Lordships upon this occasion., had I not been, in some degree, called upon to do so by what has fallen from my Illustrious Relative on the other side of the House. Differing, as I do, from my Illustrious Rela tive upon most constitutional arid political doctrines, I have felt myself, in an especial degree, called upon to come forward for the purpose of showing that my opinions are, as I conscientiously believe them to be, in perfect accord ance with the principles which placed our Family upon the Throne. As a Member of your Lordships' House, and as a Member of the Royal Family, I thus felt called upon to come forward. To support the Protestant interest is to show the most perfect toleration to all sects, for the essence of Protestantism is the right of private judgment, and complete freedom of conscience. Amongst the excel lencies of the Church of England is the comprehensive ness of its principles, its capacity for the admission of so many shades and varieties of opinion—it admits a greater number of sects than any other, and therefore toleration is its prominent characteristic.—(Hear, hear.) I confess I cannot agree with my Illustrious Relative either as to his doctrines regarding the obligation of an oath, or as to the interpretation of the coronation oath. I do so the more decidedly, when I recollect that in reading the oath he slurred over one word that" shall" be agreed to by Parliament—nothing can be more evident than that the oath was prepared with a view to future alterations. With that proviso in the oath, and the other party interested relieving me from the stringency of the obligation, I should not hesitate to consent to this measure, even though I had taken such an oath. It is likewise perfectly clear that the oath was so drawn up for the purpose of preventing the Sovereign from dispensing with the laws without the consent and agreement of the other branches of the legislature. I consider that, both as a :Ilan and a Christian, I should he entitled, had I to take such an oath, to give my con , eiit to this measure. After what has been said on the other side by my Illustrious Relative, I felt bound to say thus much, and briefly to state the motives which prompt me to support this Bill, which may be summed up in these woads—l support it because I think it eminently calculated to promote the tranquillity and future prosperity of the country.—( Hear.) Lord WYNFORD contended, that whether they did or did not agree to the second reading, it was perfectly open to them to reject or modify any of the clauses in Committee : and if such alterations as Noble Lords wished were not adopted in Committee, the dissentient Lords might, if they proved sufficiently numerous, throw out the Bill at any subsequent stage, and in voting for such rejection, Noble Lords would not be acting inconsistently with any suppoat they might give the second reading— that was the uniform practice of Parliament. The with drawing of the clause mentioned by a Most Reverend Prelate made, in fact, no difference in the principle of the Bill, which sought to relieve the land at . the ex pense of the Church—justice and policy required that the Church and the land should be left as hey were.—(Hear, hear.) e ks to the proposed tax, his Lordship contended that it II 113 a more iniquitous and inquisitorial tax than an income tax, and that it was to be collected by an uncontrolled power. Lie did not consider the reduction of ten Bishops as a mere matter of econo my; and it ought never to be forgotten, that part of the property of Bishops was neither given by the Crown nor the State, but by bequest of pious individuals; and Par liament could not take away what Parliament did not give. He called upon the Nolde Lord on the woolsack to produce a single instance of a Bishop whose see had been abolished, and his property taken from him. The bishopric of Westminster had, indeed, been abolished, but the Bishop was allowed to assign over his property. Unions of bishoprics were not uncommon, even in this country—Bath and Wells, Lichfield and Coventry, for instance; but when'they were joined, the property be longing to them was joined also. The Noble and Learned Lord had referred to the case of the East India Company, which, last year, had been compelled by Parliament to pay 30,0001. to an individual ; but the cases were not parallel ; and such a precedent could not justify the mode in which it was proposed to deal with ecclesiastical corporations. ''The manner in which Par liament had dealt with tithes upon madder and upon barren lands could not fairly be construed into an attack on the Church ; although the Noble and Learned Lord, in the distress of his argument, had so contended. On the subject of the coronation oath, and the effect of it, he entirely concurred with the Illustrious Duke below him (Cumberland), and in order to show that he was right in his view of the subject, he quoted a passage from one of the letters of Lord Kenyon, addressed to George the Third, when that Sovereign entertaned doubts upon the subject. Any man who read the oath attentively, would see that it applied equally to the executive and legislative authority of the King. It was divided into three branches; the two first of which respected the ' executive, and the last only the legislative authority of the Crown; and the latter branch seemed especially to have been inserted, as it were, to apply to and meet such a question as the present. A Noble Marquis, with great ingenuity, had argued that there must necessarily be some power on earth to release the King from this oath. He (Lord Wynford) was well satisfied that no authority on earth could or ought to release the King from the obliga tion. It was a matter solely between the conscience of the Sovereign and his God ; and that, in this instance, the stringent nature of it should be felt was most proper, when—as an Illustrious Duke had said—the present family was called to the throne expressly for the purpose of maintaining the Protestant religion in these realms. He (Lord Wynford) entertained a great respect for the Roman Catholics; but one greatobjection he felt to their religion was, that it admitted a human power to release a sacred obli gation. The Noble and Learned Lord then touched upon the coronation oaths, taken by the Sovereigns of this country from the time of Edward 111. downwards to the Revolution, quoting the opinion of Mr. (afterwards Lord) Somers, who wished that a degree of liberty should be left to the King, but whose opinion was over-ruled. He concluded by observing, that he did not mean to set him self up in opposition to the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack, who was in the fuel vigour of his life and faculties, while he (Lord Wynford) was only a poor old worn-out person, who, entertaining strong and honest opinions, thought it right to express them. His deter mination was to vote against the second reading of the Bill; but if it were carried, he should nevertheless attend the Committee, and resist the progress of the measure in its various stages. Earl GREY replied—Although every thing that could be said in defence of the Bill bad already been so well advanced, and although the objections to it had been so fully answered, he could not refrain from making a few closing observations on a questioh of Po much importance. When such a character had been given of the measure —when insinuations had not been spared imputing mctives and designs to its supporters in office farthest from their thoughts because most inconsistent with their duty ; it was impossible to forbear soliciting the patient attention of their Lordships while he offered an answer. First, be was anxious to set himself right with the Noble Duke opposite (Wellington), who had charged him with attacking the polity of the late Govern ment with more than usual asperity. He (Earl Grey) hoped he was not peculiarly distinguished for asperity, either of manner or language—(Cheers)—and on this occasion he had especially endeavoured to abstain front everything which could have the appearance of a•perity in himself, or produce irritation in others.-2(Hear,) When lie spoke of the delay in granting the Catholic claims as the cause of the agitation, he wished to do justice to the Noble Duke opposite. He did not mean to charge the Noble Duke with that delay, or with the consequences of it, but to impute them to the long series of years during which these evils had accumulated, till they had risen to such a height that it was difficult to deal with then], and in dealing with them there was no choice, but to pro. pose an effective remedy, or still to suffer from the evils.-- (Hear.) In like manner the evils with which he had now to deal had been suffered to accumulate, and it had now become their imperative duty to remove them.— (Hear, hear.) It had been reproached to them that these evils had been of their own creation ; and a Noble Earl had said, that if the power of the Government had been proper employed, they might hare been kept in check. The same reproach had been made on the former occasion to the Noble Duke, and he had him self sometimes employed that observation—he who was the opposer of all changes in law ; but even he had been at la.t obliged to say that things had come to that state, that the Government could no longer go on with them as they were, and had only a choice between civil war and the measure he proposed. He (Earl Grey) had vindicated the Noble Duke from the attacks then made on him, and had contended that he was acting under a necessity which the delay of preceding administrations had caused. When that reproach of not having used the powers of Government was made to the Noble Duke, he had answered that it was difficult to deal with a resistance which was within the limits of the law. As that was the case with the Noble Duke, whose vigour bad been so frequently applauded, and as the circumstances were precisely the same now, it might have been expected that the Noble Duke would have made allowance for those who were placed in a situation where they suffered from the same difficulties that he had formerly felt. The present Government had done all that they could by the powers of the law to subdue the spirit of insubordination. A Noble Duke had stated the evils of such a spirit in the most impressive manner, and he (Earl Grey) had stated them at the beginning of the Session, and on the ground of their existence had proposed a measure which it wrung his heart to introduce; for it was a measure of extreme severity, of such severity that he most sincerely hoped the necessity for renewing it might never recur. In justice to the Noble Marquis at the head of the Government in Ire land, he was bound to say that that Noble Marquis bad done all he could to curb the spirit of insubordination, and thus prevent the necessity of having recourse to such a measure. Had that Noble Marquis there met with the support he bad a right to expect—( Hear)—and especially had those who were continually attacking the Government for not using severe measures refrained from employing, as they constantly did, the most inflammatoay language, that Noble Marquis might have succeeded with the powers of the ordinary laws.—(Hear.) They had failed; and in consequence of their failure it bad become absolutely ne cessary to introduce the measure which had alternately been the subject of so much blame and so much encomium. The Noble Earl who spoke last night with his usual ability, but with his usual bitterness, had asked whether he (Earl Grey) was satisfied with the results of the present consti tution of the House of Commons? His answer was, that it had fully vindicated the propriety of the measure he bad had the happiness to carry into effect. It had been said that this tHhoaut swieta of s w n c o t: t inm tsoobocenos. completely a denaecratic, entirely a radical ple Y te e ly t toldt s la u e b y se w r e vi r e e ntto otherth th e ewilio night that Ministry, that it did every thing they wished. That it was so aubservient be utterly denied.—(Hear.) The Mem bers showed an anxiou s and constitutional love of the rights of the people, as indeed they were bound to do— but at the same time they were ready to support the Government in maintaining the authority of the laws, when they saw there was a necessity for it.—( Hear.) He wished to ask how that Bill had passed the House of Gammons? On the fir:t reading the Ayes were 466 the Noes 69—and this majority of five to one was in that radical House of Commons—(Hear, hear)—and it was that democratic House of Commons that had by such a majority conferred upon Ministers powers such as it had been said no House of Commons had ever before intrusted to any Minister. In the same manner the present Bill had passed the House of Commons.—(Hear, hear.) A Noble Earl at the table had said that he would vote for this Bill if he (Earl Grey) would promise not to carry these reforms further, and if he would resist them as he had resisted annual parliaments, universal suffrage, and vote by ballot. On that he wished to ask their Lord ships, whether reform had or not been successful in this respect, and whether they had ever heard so little on these subjects as within the last twelve months.—.(Hear, hear.) Let the House look to the state in which the country was when the present Administration came into office. There were Trades' Unions—Political Unions—and burnings e t sticks, that extended all over the country, and might be seen from the metropolis itself.—(Hear.) What was now their state ? Of Trades' Unions they heard nothing—(Cheers)—of Political Unions there were but few—(Hear, hear)—and the burnings had ceased. It was true they had been tol I, that in a meeting of a political union the present Administration had been spoken of with immingled hatred and contempt; but did not that show most conclusively that they had not sacrificed to the ap plause of those persons their own opinions or the institu tions of the country ?—(Clieers.) When, therefore, he was cautioned against further concessions, on the g ound that they always produced new demands, he had a right to contradict the assertion, and to say that, from past ex perience, wise concessions had always been successful in stopping imprudent and improper demands,—(Hear, hear.) The same caution had been given with respect to the Roman Catholic Relief Bill, and he had then answered, that we should make those concessions that reason and particular existing circumstances is quired. The delay of the Roman Catholic concessions had caused the people to know the power of combinations ; and it was true that whe❑ that question was carried, they looked out for some other subject of complaint, which they but too readily found, and a state of things was created in Ireland which had necessarily required a measure of severity to repress them.—(Hear, hear.) The fact was that the Catholic question had been so long delayed, that its concession was unavoidably accompanied by the evil consequences of the delay.—(Hear, hear.) He disclaimed taking up this reform, or the others which it might be the duty of this Government, if it continu. d, to introduce under the pressure of necessity—(Hear)—and with regard to the question of Catholic emancipation, he must remark, that he had always said that it alone would work no miracles, nor could remove all the evils of Ireland.—(Hear.) He desired to confirm the correction of that error which a Noble Lord had fallen into, that this measure was intended as a balance to the measure of severity. His Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack had answered that mis take most ably and effectively. It was not that this measure was a balance to the other, but that the authority of the law having been asserted, they would not have been performing their duty if they bad not taken advan tage of that interval to do that which would render the re-assertion of the dignity of the law, by measures of severity, unnecessary.—•(Cheers.) He had no personal views to answer in proposing this measure. If the Go. verntnent were actuated by those base and sordid motives of which they had often been unjustly accused, they would not have introduced this measure, which, if carried, must deprive diem of a considerable degree of patronage —(Hear, hear)—for it was not likely that the Go vernment would have the nomination of a new Bishop for a considerable length of time. Was not this a measure which the safety of the country demanded—and ought it not to be adopted, with the view to effecting the promo tion of the best interests of the country ? He thought that both these questions ought to be answered in the affir mative. The question of expediency had been argued, and with the explanation of the Right Rev. Prelate, he adopted the expediency, as one on which he recommended this measure. He took the arguments of Paley, as explained by the Right Rev. Prelate. To the Noble Duke, and the Noble Lord who bad stood so high on the matter of prin ciple, he should beg to direct this question—whether they were quite sure, after all, that they themselves were not acting on the ground of expediency? The point to be attained was the security of the Protestant Church—the United Church of England and Ireland. •It was their duty to support that united Church—they proposed this measure because they believed it would have that effect, and the Noble Duke and the Noble Lord opposed the measure because they thought it dangerous to the Church to admit . the principle of change.—(Hear, bear.) Both parties then acted on grounds of expediency—the real difference between them was the mode in which the object that they had in common could be most surely attained.—(Cries of "Hear, hear, hear.") It was said that the churches of England and Ireland were one. It way true they were so, but did it follow that a defect in one of the branches was not to be remedied because the same defect did not exist in the other. Certainly if that principle was to be adopted now, it would be for the first time, for hitherto it had not been acted on. A Tithe Composition Bill had been passed under the preceding Administration. That Bill was applicable only to Ireland, and he believed that if it had been carried far enough, things would not have come to this extremity in Ireland. —(Hear, hear.) He should now say a word on the evils of the church cess. All but the Right Rev. Prelate who spoke last night bad admitted that it was an evil. Of that speech of four hours, three-fourths were occupied with topics that had nothing to do with the matter.—(No, no ! Hear, hear.) He was of that opinion, and must remain so.—(Hear.) The Right Rev. Prelate had declared that he had never heard a complaint of church cess. The Bishop of EXETER said something which was not distinctly audible in the gallery. Earl GREY was happy to find now that the Right Rev. Prelate did think it a great grievance, and that it was necessary to be remedied. The Bishop of EXETER had not said that he thought it a great grievance, but that it excited discontent, and was necessary to he remedied.—(A laugh.) Earl GREY—WeII, then, he thought not that it was a great grievance, but that it excited discontent, and was necessary to be remedied.—(Heir, hear.) They had heard quoted the opinions formerly professed by those in the House of Commons who were now Ministers, and said that they had done nothing to act up to those opinions not even in the matter of church cess ; and a Right Hon. Gentleman, as soon as he got into office, like a child with a new toy, forgot all his former wishes. Why, his Right Hon. Friend had no sooner been appointed Secretary for Ireland, than he brought in a Bill relative to church cess. The Noble Lord here went into a long detail of the many measures which had been passed, and were now in pro gress, for the amelioration of the sister country, and then proceeded to rebut, from irrefragable documents, the as. sertion of the Right Reverend the Bishop of Exeter, that church livings had never be' n revalued in Ireland. The Noble Premier then said that the Noble and Learned Lord who preceded him alluded to the honoured name of Kenyon as an instance of a man who prudently turned his attention to one subject and axcelled in it, in preference to dabbling in many and eosaprehendi ng none. —( Hear.) limit certainly was a good example well worthy of imitation even by some Noble Lords themselves.—(Laughter.) The Noble and Learned Lord (Wynford), it was well known, ap plied himself most rigorously and assiduously to every sub ject that happened to present itself to the notice of their Lordships. Whether he understood them all or not— whether he understood any portion of them or not—he would, of course, in common courtesy leave to the House to decide.--(Hear, hear.) But if the Noble and Learned Lord spoke every day, and ten times every day, he would never convince him (Earl Grey) of the impropriety or the injustice of reducing the number of bishoprics. As to the strange, the uncalled for observations of the Right Rev. Prelate (Bishop of Exeter) on the Catholic body of the country, he could only say that if they did not excite his surprise, they most assuredly did his regret. Nothing could, in his view, be more reprehensible than an attempt, come from what quarter it might, to re-open old, and as he (Earl Grey) hoped, fast-fading animosities. But to what could those observations tend, but to open wounds which all good men desired to see healed ?—(Cheers.) For what purpose were they mode—in what spirit could they be begotten ? Did the Right Rev. Prelate wish again to lay open the sources of so many crimes—the cause of so much suffering, as well to individuals as to the nation —did he wish again to see society dis turbed by religious bickering, and its peace once more at the control of party passion ?—(Cheers.) This Bill, he as serted, had nothing whatever to do with the Catholics, and why were such inflammatory topics ever introduced into the discussion on it ? It was no concession to the Catholics. He boldly averred it. It was a concession to the Church itself; in order that, in its present state of danger, it might have some chance of braving the storm. _...(Cheers.) It was possible (would he could disbelieve it !)—it was unhappily possible, to find some clergymen, even in the Church of England, whose sole study, and sole care--regardless, perhaps, of higher calls, and nobler duties—was to be found in pamphleteering—(Great cheer. ing)—or in preparing exciting speeches to trouble men's minds, and shake society to its centre.—(Cheers.) Sorry should he be to take such a man—if, indeed, there were one---as a sample of the clergy of England ; to think that men of hie own creed should deny an indulgence to others which they claimed for themselve3.—(Cheer , .) If however, were one, no doubt others would ru , ll to lb, encounter. If a pamphlet appeared, attacking the Catlio• lie body, there would, doubtless., soon be a rejoinder from the pen of Dr. Doyle. He should leave the intellectual combatants to their own encounter— Arcades ambo: Et cantare pares, et respondere parati.—(Loud cheers.) In whatever way the controversy might be conducted, be should be no party to it, but leave it to others who had more zest for such ignoble warfare..—(Hear, hear.) The Bill was before their Lordships, and it was for them to decide whether it was to he read a second time or not. Ve did hope, however ; that if they concurred in the principle, there would not hereafter he found lurking any design of affecting such change as won7d affect its power or effiei ency. —(lleat-. hear.) It might he possible to make such alterations in it as would defeat the object its framers had in view, and cause the other House to reject it—thus producing all those dangers which so many feared. But if this were the design—if there was really any intention of so altering it in Committee, be Woeld, for his own part, greatly . prefer its rejection on the second reading. He knew there Were difficulties surrounding the question; hut he felt there would even be less in rejecting the Bill, than in so impairing if hereafter that its own friends would blush to acknowledge it.--.(Hear, hear.) He had been reproached by some for going too far, and by others fir not going far enough. Others had said he bad con ciliated those on whore faith it were folly to rely: But he denied it. If he had conciliated at all, it was with fn such view, and with no such parties ; but merely from a sense of duty, to prevent those dangers which would be consequent on the rejection of a measure which the Com mons approved, and the people had at heart.--(Cheers.) Government had been mach reproached for abandoning the 147th clause ; but be believed they had been correct in so doing, for they did not depart from one principle of the Bill. If he had done this in the hope of conciliation, he should only have been miserably deceiving himself ; for lie doubted not he should soon have found out, that in this, as in other instances, any such attempt would have only served to excite more direct and bitter attacks against the Government of which he was a Member. For on such purpose—for no such futile and silly purpose--.had he altered it ; but merely from a sense of duty so to home it as to pre vent the possibility of those evils which he and others were afraid would attend its rejection.---(Hear, heir.) He, at least, had done every thing to prevent convulsion. He knew his own situation too well to suppose he should escape, if any arose.—(Hear, hear.) But their Lordships, he must honestly tell them, could expect nothing else but convulsion, if they refused reasonable and necessary reform. —(Cheers.) This he WAS sure of, that danger would be felt and anticipated by every body, if that House should place itself in a certain position, with a view of controlling. —(" No, no," from some Noble Lord.) He really thought it would be more proper not to interrupt, but to answer him. If their Lordships, by acting on false notions of honour and right, should attempt to control, or, in other words, should attempt to govern, independent of public opinion, anti of the House of Commons, convulsion must inevitably ensue. Tranquillity was now restored in the kingdom—trade and everything were going on well ; and if their Lordships would only lend themselves to the cor rection of acknowledged abuses, they would strengthen their own position in society—they would bless and be blessed by that society.—(Cheers.) He should calmly await the decision of that House, in the earnest hope that their Lordshipi would wisely consider their own honour, and the peace, interests, and happiness of their common country.—(Loud cheers.) After a few words from the Bishop of EXETER, and Lords MANSFIELD and HARROWBY, their Lordships d.vided. For the second reading— Coatents present Proxies 53 157 Non-content present 6B Proxies ... - 98 Majority for the second reading - 59 The Bill was ordered to be committed on Monday, and their Lordships adjourned at half past four this morning. HOUSE OF COMMONS, JULY 19. The SPEAKER resumed the Chair at five o'clock. MISCELLANEOUS. Mr. FRYER presented a petition from the Political Unionists of Kilmarnock in favour of the vote by ballot, universal suffi'bge, and annual Parliaments.—Laid upon the table. Mr. TOWNLEY presented a petition from the Dis senters of Wia)each, praying for the establishment of re gistries of births and marriages in dissenting places of worship.—Laid upon the table. Mr. C. FERGUSSON presented a petition from per sons belonging to the Scotch Kirk at Kilpatrick, praying to be allowed a voice in the election of their pastors.—Laid upon the table. Mr. FITZSIMON presented a petition from the county of Dublin against the house and window tax. In rep!y to a question from Mr. FITZSIMON, Lord DUNCANNON expressed a hope that the Irish Grand Jury Bill would be allowed to pass in its present shape during the present session. COMMUTATION OF TAXES. Mr. ROBINSON gave notice that he should early in the next Session submit to the House a motion for a com mutation of taxes, so as to relieve the industrious classes of the community by a more equitable distribution of the burdens of the country. MRS. - MURRAY'S CASE. Mr. G. LAMB, in reply to a question, said he was un willing to enter into any of the circumstances connected with the outrage committed on the person of Mrs. Mur ray, inasmuch as the whole matter would be ref e rred to a Jury for disposal. As the subject was at present under judicial inquiry he should be unwilling to give expression to the indignation which he klt, lest it might in any way prejudice the case or the parties. ORANGE PROCESSIONS. Mr. LITTLETON, in reply to a question, said he had no objection whatever to the production of the papers relative to the conduct of the Orange processions that had lately taken place in the north of Ireland ; and he had no hesitation in saying that four Roman Catholics had lost their lives in the unfortunate affray at Cootehill. The conduct of the Roman. Catholic population, he was bound to say, from all the information he had received, was most exemplary, while that of the Orangemen was provoking, unmanly, unchristian, and unjust& dile. Colo►:el PERCEVAL complained of the Right Hon. Secretary's making such observations pending a judicial inquiry, and, although an Orangeman himself, he must say be sincerely deplored the melancholy event to which allusion bad been made, or that the law had been violated. It was, be thought, to be regretted that the Irish Govern ment bad not placed confidence in those who bad influence with the Orangemen, and if such letters as those from Sir W. Gossett to Dr. O'Reilly had ❑ever been written, the great probability was, that this Iv:lntonate occurrence would not have taken place. The Orangemen were in i tated and goaded on by these letters, but, although he blamed the Government for the injudicious course they had taken, he certainly could not defend those who had violated the law. The Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving for copies of the letters written by Sir W. Gossett to Dr. O'Reilly, of Cavan, dated the 28th of June and the 6th of July last. Mr. O'DWYER observed that one such speech as that which they had just heard from the Right Hon. the Se cretary for Ireland, would do more in establishing tran quillity in that country than 20 Coercion Bills. Mr. LITTLETON said that he had no objection to the motion of the lion. and Gallant Offices. Motion agreed to. THE FACTORY BILL. Captain ELLIOTT presented a petition from the woollen-spinners of Hyde, in Roxburghshire, against the Factory Regulation Bill. Mr. ROBINSON expressed a wish to know the course the Noble Lord (Althorp) meant to take with respect to this Bill. Lord ALTHORP, in reply, said that he could not say further at present as to the course he should take relative to this measure than that he entertained a strong convic tion that some legislative provision for the protection of children labJuring in factories was called for. The petition was laid upon the table. THE PUBLIC EXPENDITURE.—SAVINGS. Mr. S. RICE wished to call the attention of the House to the statement which he made a night or two ago re specting the reductions effected by the present Government in the expenditure of the country. He had been charged with miscalculatio❑ by his Hon. Friend the Member for Middlesex; but it was his Hon. Friend and not he (Mr. Rice) who had fallen into the error. This his Hon. Friend had subsequently discovered, and candidly and frankly acknowledged. His Hon. Friend's explanation had not, however, reached the public, and it might, therefore, be imputed to him (Mr. Rice) that he had wilfully stated a saving of upwards of three millions Lt. have been effected in the pudic expenditure by the pre sent Administration when that was not the fact, and than the saving did not exceed 100,0001. His Honourable Friend, in his speech tl the 6th of July, had said " that the expenditure of 1833 was within a very ,mall fraction as large as the expenditure of 1820. The reduction in the amount of it arose entirely from the diminished charge of the national debt. To the year I P. 2 I, the •expeo4Tit e w 51,000,000 r: ; w ow) C>', ,(10.000L pwards \rent. 0 t ay tot• iiit, rt,E „ir,i:r ; it the iffeeence In tie , tttt '1 , 371t of the charge ut the , tor this 'inl v,t 8 % 19 ; withinnd 1833 a win' rou n d num b ers 2,900,0001 - :., - very soldl fraction, the sum or" 7'‘e difference between the amount of the expenditure in islff and 1833. The saving on the establishment of 1819 was met', in the year 1833, not more than !00,0001." Such was his Hon. Friend's statement; bur. how stood the fact Why, that the excwridittrre of 1833 was not within 6,059,0001. as large as the expeo iture of 1820. Of this sum only one half, 0r3,130,2461. !tad arisen from the diminution of the charge of the tattionai debt. In 1821 the gross expenditure was :i7.601,8461., and the net expenditure 52,433,0691. Now 1833) the gross was 50,908,328/, and the net 46,000,0001. Of this 28,223,751/. went to pay the in :west of the debt. The difference in the account of the debt., therefore, was 3,130,2461. ; and this, so far from heing a small fraction of the amount of saving, differed From that saving by 3,363,2721. If the amount were brought up to the sth of July, the difference would be augtnented from 6,059,0721. to 7,039,995/. It was elear, therefore, that his Hon. Friend was wrong, and that he (Mr. S. Rice), was correct in asserting that the strings effected exceeded 3,000,000/. The Right Hon. Gentleman then moved for a return of the public income and expenditure of the year ending the sth of January, 1823, and subsequent years to 1833, showing the in crease or diminution that had taken place. Mr. HUMI admitted that be had been in error. He had en a former occasion acknowledged his mistake, but explanation had not reached the public. _ . The return was ordered. BEER LAWS. Mr. G. LAMB gave notice that he should on Monday wove for leave to bring in a Bill to alter and amend' the beer laws. CLERGY IN INDIA. Mr. HUME moved for a return of all moneys paid by the present Government of India towards the maintenance• of tit.: clergy and priests of every religious persuasion in that country, and whether Protest, Catholic, Hindoo, or Mahommedan, during the years 1830-31.—Ordered. CORPORATION COMMISSION. Mr. FRYER moved fur a return of the names of all persons appointed Commissioners under the Commission for inquiring into the condition of corporations, together with the instructions given to them, and the amount of the remuneration they were to receive.—Ordered. THE DECCAN PRIZE MONEY. Mr. FRYER wished to know from the Noble Lord opposite, what was to be done with regard to the distribu tion of the Deccan prize money ? Lord ALTHORP replied that the whole matter had been referred by the Privy Council back to the Lords of the Treasury, but what the Lords of the Treasury meant to do under such peculiar circumstances was more than he (Lord A.) could then take upon himself to say. SINECURES. Mr. HARVEY gave notice that he would, on the Civil List being brought under the consideration of the House, move that all pensions not appearing to have been merited by public services should be struck off from it. THE POST•OFFICE OPENING LETTERS. Mr. WALLACE gave notice that he meant on Monday next to submit to the House a motion on the right exer— cised by the functionaries at the General Post-office to open and inspect letters. THE EAST INDIA CHARTER BILL. The House then resumed the Committee on the Eat India Company's Charter Bill. The 89th clause having been put, Mr. FRENCH supported the clause. Mr. O'DW YER opposed it on the ground that it would enable the Government of India at any future period to increase their episcopal establishment, not according to the wants of the people, but in proportion to the extension of their territories. _ . Sir M. W. RIDLEY should vote for the clause, as it would entail no additional expense, and was intended merely to alter titles of dignity. Mr. RUTHVEN could see no reason for burdening India with a Church Establishment when its effects had been so injurious at home. Lord MORPETH, though the representative of a large body of Di.senters, should support the clause. He knew his constituents would not blame him for the vote he meant to give, as its object was the furtherance and spread— ing of religion. Mr. MAXWELL could see no reason wby the House should reject the clause. Mr. WILKS moved the addition of certain words exempting from the superintendence of the Bishops mis sionaries, priests, and schoolmasters not being members of the Church of England. Mr. R. GRANT opposed the amendment, and it was withdrawn. The 90th clause was agreed to. On the 97th clause being moved, which granted a retiring pension of 500/. to Bishops after a residence of fifteen years, Mr. HUME proposed to extend the term to twenty years. Mr. HALCOMB wished no time to be specified. Mr. R. GRANT supported the original clause, 4nd it was carried. On th 102 , 1 clause being moved, _ _ . Mr. SHELL objected to the allowance to the Bishops for visitations, but after some discussion the clause was agreed to. Upon the next clause, regulating the allowance to Arch— deacons, a conversation ensued, in which Mr. HUME said that upon the report, unless the duties of Archdeacons should b specified to him, he should move to strike out the clause. Clause agreed to. Mr. GRANT moved a new clause, providing that two chaplains in each Presidency should be of the Church of Scotland, and have the same salaries as military chaplains. Mr. A. JOHNSTONE proposed that these chaplains should be under the control and direction of the Presby tery of Edinburgh. Mr. GILLON objected to the exclusion of Dissenters from the Church of England, and would take the sense of the Committee upon the clause. A discussion ensued, which ended in the Chairman stating that as the clause was a new one the further con sideration must be postponed to the end of the Bill. Clause 103 was then agreed to. Mr. C. GRANT then proposed the introduction of a clause tn eking provision that at least two chaplains at each of the presidencies should be ministers of the Church of Scotland, with salaries equal to those of military chaplains. Mr. A. JOHNSTONE suggested that in such case such chaplains should be placed under the control and di rection of the Presbytery of Edinburgh and the Pro vincial Synod. Mr. GILLON objected to the total exclusion of Dis senters from the Church of Scotland from the proposition of the Right Hon. Gentleman, and expressed his deter mination, unless provision were made for that body, to take the sense of the Committee upon it. Mr. C. FERGUSSON saw no reason for placing Dis senters from the Church of Scotland on a better footing than Dissenters from the Church of England. Sir J. MAXWELL thought that Christians of all per suasions should be allowed every opportunity of propagating their opinions in India.—(Hear.) Mr. SHEIL proposed an amendment to the clause, to make it lawful for the Directors of the East India Com pany to provide for Members of the Roman Catholics, and all other denominations of religion, due regard being held .o the amount of population. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman having proposed his amendment, The CHAIRMAN suggested that, as the clause did nat originally belong to the Bill, the Committee were precluded from the discussion of it. When the Committee was er•.ded it would be competent for the Right Hon. Gentle man to bring op the clause. The clause was accordingly withdrawn. On the 104th clause (relating to the establishment of Hayleybury College) being proposesi, Mr. C. W. WYNN recommended that the considera tion of the whole subject to which it referred, being of the highest importance, should be postponed until the next session, and in the meantime undergo inquiry before a Select Committee. Mr. C. GRANT did not think t e clause contained [natter of such importance that it could not be adequately Aiscusseri by the present Committee, and therefore could tint consent to adopt the suggestion of the Hon. Gentleman. On the CHAIRMAN proceeding to read the clause, Mr. C. FERGUSSON stated that the establishment of dayleybury College had entailed an expenditure of 10,0001. a year to the Company without affording any thing like an adequate return. He thought that a degree ofa c ti i ' v e il Ho a u p s p e oi u n p t o m n en i : in India, Ind obtained nt a University ought to be deemed more than t sufficient proof that its possessor bail r eceived a proper f t c :i n a d t id a at u es n ! i o v r er a s p it p y oi: e t i elucation. But if any further certificate was found re quisite,possessor why should not the Company have their own examiners as qualificationto th. t j:L h : e dA,ey inent 4 in I n dia ? Should the clause be persevered in, I,„, contended 4.4, N ra o e:e u i l ,r d fiv. at t ts a iel k dbi e yA tc t .o h oA e as to the additional test suggested by nourable Gentleman, namely, that of an examination